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Compliance Is Wasted Money, Study Finds

Trailrunner7 writes "Enterprises are spending huge amounts of money on compliance programs related to PCI-DSS, HIPAA and other regulations, but those funds may be misdirected in light of the priorities of most information security programs, a new study has found. A paper by Forrester Research, commissioned by Microsoft and RSA, the security division of EMC, found that even though corporate intellectual property comprises 62 percent of a given company's data assets, most of the focus of their security programs is on compliance with various regulations. The study found that enterprise security managers know what their companies' true data assets are, but find that their security programs are driven mainly by compliance, rather than protection (PDF)."

196 comments

  1. Naturally... by russotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Screw up with your customers data, and the worst that happens is you get a PR black eye, or you lose money. Don't follow regulations and unless you've got a Congressman in your pocket, you can go to jail.

    1. Re:Naturally... by sorak · · Score: 1

      Screw up with your customers data, and the worst that happens is you get a PR black eye, or you lose money. Don't follow regulations and unless you've got a Congressman in your pocket, you can go to jail.

      Agreed. What statistics should they be showing to make "obey the law" a priority? And what part of this summary shows that it is currently too much of one?

    2. Re:Naturally... by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      All too true - screw up the Sarbanes-Oxley act and you will be thrown with some interesting instruments up your rear end.

      And if you screw up some decree by DHS or any other department with three letter acronyms you will get roasted slowly over a pit and then thrown to the polar bears. If you have a congress man or senator handy you may be able to avoid the polar bears but you may also have company instead when you visit them.

      And people wonders why so few startups are going on that may produce new jobs. It's that swamp of regulations that is equally wide and deep regardless of how large you are. But if you are big you can take it in two strides while if you are small it may take you two hundred strides.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    3. Re:Naturally... by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And people wonders why so few startups are going on that may produce new jobs.

      I've been to several startups in the past year that exist solely for compliance purposes. They'll have only a few customers, all large corporations. Typically they'll come up with some little scheme like building physical "appliances" that clients plug in to their internal network and voila all this stupid traffic is being logged and kept on record and emails are flying out to customers a mile a minute. On average these outfits hire a couple dozen people. Very dull jobs but they pay well.

    4. Re:Naturally... by antirelic · · Score: 1

      This is where government and private enterprises clash. Government produces regulation, and private enterprises need to produce profit. If you work in government, you are generally unaccountable for meeting deadlines, budgets, or any sort of real goal. In the private sector, if you spend too much money in the wrong place, you fall behind schedule and begin to get closer and closer to getting into the red. If you get into the red in the private sector, you can quickly go broke and go out of business. If your government goes into the red, they borrow/print money (inflation) or raise taxes.

      Ultimately it boils down to risk versus reward. If you have to hire three security experts just to meet regulatory compliance, can you afford to have a fourth engineer who is going to add real value added security measures? In businesses that have thin profit margins, hiring an extra person can break a bottom line. And besides, once you pile on all these regulations, you begin to use them as a crutch and an excuse for poor security. If you meet all the regulations, why go above and beyond if you now can cast your blame to the unaccountable government? This has become an unfortunate reality that can be found anywhere government intervenes. IMHO, there are many unregulated ventures that have far better security and much better records because they rely strictly on their reputation and the consequences therein if they fail.

      --
      20th century Marxism is not progress...
    5. Re:Naturally... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Posting anonymously for semi-obvious reasons....

      I work for a Fortune 200 firm. We have branches in all 50 states (and many countries as well, but I'm in the US division.)

      Every locality - city, state, whatever - has its own little set of laws. Some of the tax laws are very complex. Our software can't handle all of them.

      So every one that comes up, one of the questions that go into the decision making is this: How big is the fine if we don't?

      If the defined fine is less than it will cost to implement the change, sometimes we let it go and figure we'll pay the fine if we're caught.

      On the other hand, it's absolutely true that compliance gets a higher emphasis and a higher visibility than actual security. We're redoing our credit card processing at the moment, and although the new implementation meets the PCI-DSS regulations better than the old one (in other words, it does) it also has a much larger potential for major data loss.

      The old architecture was totally decentralized. You would have to compromise each of our locations to get their credit card data.

      The new one is centralized. Compromise one server and you've got it all.

    6. Re:Naturally... by Ritchie70 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      PCI-DSS isn't government, though. It's supposedly an "industry coalition" but what it really is, mostly, is Visa.

      If anything goes wrong, the merchant involved can be found to be in violation - everyone is in violation if you look hard enough - so it's the merchant's fault.

      I read an article somewhere that said merchants should just find the cheapest, least competent auditor they can, and get them to declare the merchant PCI-DSS compliant, then do what you think is right to be secure.

      Anything else is just wasted money - because if there's a breach, by definition, you were insecure, and therefore not PCI-DSS compliant.

      So get the paper, then make yourself as secure as you possibly can, ignoring the BS from the auditors who don't really understand your environment.

      I"m not saying I 100% agree, but it is an interesting argument.

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    7. Re:Naturally... by EvolutionsPeak · · Score: 2, Informative

      If that isn't an instance of the Broken Window Fallacy I don't know what is.

    8. Re:Naturally... by taoye · · Score: 1

      Hey, if it means they actually try to have a secure system it's a million times better than trying to be simply "compliant" yet still insecure.

    9. Re:Naturally... by Tenareth · · Score: 1

      Odd timing, the laws just changed for HIPAA and HITECH

      --
      This sig is the express property of someone.
    10. Re:Naturally... by michaelhood · · Score: 1

      I read an article somewhere that said merchants should just find the cheapest, least competent auditor they can, and get them to declare the merchant PCI-DSS compliant, then do what you think is right to be secure.

      This is what I advise, as well. Banks (Wells Fargo, of note) have been accepting Comodo
      HackerGuardian for PCI DSS scanning requirements.

      [following provided for humor purposes, this isn't factual (Comodo et al.: don't bother suing me)]
      I watched the apache logs/syslogs, it's hilarious..
      It's basically a banner check, some simple brute force authentications (like.. 10) against SSH and FTP services (if present), and then it runs thousands of brute force GETs and HEADs on your httpd looking for known vulnerabilities from the 90s and early 00s (think FrontPage Extensions.)

    11. Re:Naturally... by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      ...emails are flying out to customers a mile a minute.

      I would complain about that..

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    12. Re:Naturally... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its only the broken window fallacy if you really believe the regs do nothing. I'd rather have the regs than companies playing fast and loose.

    13. Re:Naturally... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Don't follow regulations and unless you've got a Congressman in your pocket, you can go to jail.

      Don't follow regulations and people die.

      The mine that exploded last night was owned by a company who's making huge profits, but has a piss-poor record of following safety regulations, especially regs that concern the buildup of methane. Thanks to the mine owners' greed and blatant disrespect for life and law, two dozen hard working men are dead.

      Don't give me this "there are too many regulations" shit. If you can't follow the regs, you're in the wrong business.

      I'm journaling about this later today, I need to vent. If you own stock in that mining company, you're accomplice to mass murder.

    14. Re:Naturally... by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is that regulations did not prevent this from happening.

      This is the problem with regulations, the honest follow them and get disadvantaged by them and fall behind, the dishonest ignore them and get ahead (until caught or something goes wrong). And even those who do follow regulations may cut common sense non-regulated measures because of the overhead caused by pointless regulations.

      What is needed is not just more and more regulation but sensible, sane regulation and more enforcement.

    15. Re:Naturally... by the_arrow · · Score: 1

      So every one that comes up, one of the questions that go into the decision making is this: How big is the fine if we don't?
      If the defined fine is less than it will cost to implement the change, sometimes we let it go and figure we'll pay the fine if we're caught.

      And what if they (city, state, whatever) sees you still haven't implemented according to their law? A new fine? Probably bigger?
      Is it really worth it in the long run? Especially if, in addition to repetitive fines, you also start to loose customers because of the bad PR?

      --
      / The Arrow
      "How lovely you are. So lovely in my straightjacket..." - Nny
    16. Re:Naturally... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      No, what I'm saying is that failure to follow regulations caused it.

      the honest follow them and get disadvantaged by them and fall behind, the dishonest ignore them and get ahead (until caught or something goes wrong).

      That's why penalties for safety regulations (and IMO privacy regulations) should be very severe, and impact those at the very top of the organization. The CEO of the company that owns that mine should face hard time in a maximum security prison with the other mass murderers, but instead the company will pay a fine that they consider part of operating expenses. There should be no get oout of jail free card for CEOs. If the rules say "the company commits a felony, the CEO and board of directors go to prison" you would almost never see a corporation commit a felony.

      What is needed is not just more and more regulation but sensible, sane regulation and more enforcement.

      I agree.

    17. Re:Naturally... by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Many of the regs do exactly nothing. Not because they were intended that way, but because the people writing them are blisteringly incompetent. We're talking "Guam tipping over" incompetent.

    18. Re:Naturally... by pugugly · · Score: 1

      Actually, what I've seen is a lot of 'compliance' with regulations that don't actually exist.

      I am a tech, not a lawyer, but I often I look at the regulations, and they are, frankly, clearly written and pretty specific. And then there is this implementation that is ordered from the legal department that has virtually nothing to do with either the regulation as written, nor even the spirit of the regulation.

      The (few) times I have bothered to 'dig in' past the legal department to figure it out, I have seen all sorts of obfuscation, intimations that I am outside my depth/skillset, and resistance, and then, eventually, an admission that no there's no particular reason to interpret it this way. I suspect it's the same for the times I *haven't* chosen to buck the system, but who can keep that up all the time?

      But one does notice it's the same people that talk about how over-regulated {Insert industry here} is that are actually obfuscating pretty cleanly written regulations on a regular basis.

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
  2. Process/Objective Inversion by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The purpose of the 'process' is to serve the 'objective'. When serving the process becomes the objective, you're boned.

    1. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are two different objectives here, with (at least) two different processes. The first of these objectives is securing corporate assets. The second is securing sensitive individual information about people with whom the corporation does business. Security processes should ideally serve both objectives, but if that's impossible, then one process (or set of processes) has to be given prioroty over the other. As a customer of, say, Amex or Cigna, I care a whole hell of a lot more about the second objective than the first, so it doesn't displease me at all that the processes related to that objective are well-funded.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Not true. A well designed process could serve both objectives - if they're mutually exclusive then explain how - but frequently what passes for designing a process is actually an exercise in box ticking that over time can become a process in itself.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 1

      But there are two different objectives, one is fostering the corporate profits and the other is public safety. As much as we decry regulations what would it be like if there were no traffic lights or stop signs, or even worse, there were but people did not pay attention to them. The stop lights do a tremendous lot of good , they reduce moving accidents to close to zero while allowing cars to speed along through light after light, when things are timed well, without stopping, maintaining a even speed. That saves time, saves gas, increases throughput of the entire system. We see other types of regulations like that in computers where I/O is given precedence so it can get its work started and leave and let the CPU tasks continue. The throughput of the entire system is increased.

      It is true in subtle but powerful ways with security regulations, and the Internet especially. If people can't trust that their data will be safe (cant trust that someone who has the red light is going to stop) then they will not give their data out, they won't do commerce online. They won't trust their credit card company to be safe and secure and will start using cash and checks again. Commerce can not continue and certainly not at an efficient pace when trust is not present. So the regulations to protect user data establishes a trust playing field that, while a great pain in the ass to comply with, is essential for business. The alternative is too horrible to contemplate. As for the other, the corporation protecting their data, thats up to the corporation and there is little or no community interest nor control that would make sense. Corporations and businesses would find that more than onerous.

      So the real issue here is that the article states that the study feels that compliance is not worth the money. That is selfish business talking. All you have to look at are the recent very large thefts of peoples identities or the corporate malfeasance that have come to light that has had dramatic and real negative monetary impact on millions of people to tell us that this view is selfish and short sighted. It does not value the social value of compliance as it should but then many businesses have a much more narrow self interest in mind for where they want to put their monies. Thats why we have regulations with compliance, they don't do it on their own and we all have suffered already for that.

    4. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree wholeheartedly, except that I don't think "the alternative is too horrible to contemplate" if the alternative is "We will no longer be able to buy crap we don't need using money we don't have to impress people we don't like (at least online) using credit cards."

      I am one of those strange folk who would pay extra for that sort of thing... and I work for the internet arm of a large retail establishment!

    5. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by hemorex · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      sudo give me mod points.

    6. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 1

      The unthinkable alternative is loosing your identity and cash to a thief who would have been stopped by compliance or your car tboned by a semi at an intersection because he just did not want to comply. Or you end up in jail because someone stole your identity and stole items and you are framed for it. Then there is the economic collapse that could occur. We saw this recently with the derivatives market tanking the economy. We did not regulate those bastards. Why comply I'm making money, oops your life is ruined, who knew? I will just retire with my winnings (your money) to my gated community.

    7. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by Sir+Realist · · Score: 1

      There are two different objectives here: securing your information, and covering your arse. Standards compliance may have little or nothing to do with the one, but its vitally important to the other.

    8. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in order to reach the objective you must first process the objective through a process that objectifies the process. Therefore the process creates an objective..........Lost my train of thought.

    9. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by timeOday · · Score: 1

      - if they're mutually exclusive then explain how -

      Money, presumably. But assuming you're right, that destroys the premise of this article, which is that corporations are failing to protect their intellectual property because they are instead placing too much emphasis on pesky regulations that protect individuals' assets and privacy without directly contributing to the bottom line.

    10. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are two different objectives here [...]

      I can think of a third objective.

      Imagine Microsoft and RSA, the security division of EMC seeing the Cloud as the latest cache of IT gold, and imagine those players identifying security (particularly security compliance) as the only real barrier to that gold. Now its easy to see the third objective - those players doing their utmost to remove that barrier.

    11. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by DocHoncho · · Score: 1

      The unthinkable alternative is loosing your identity...

      I loosed my identity once and ended up on Guys Gone Wild. I'll never live that one down.

      --
      Celebrity worship is a poor substitute for Deity worship and costs more to boot.
    12. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As therapy, crystals, and new Age gurus aplenty have taught us well, the journey is the destination. Bones for everyone! Hallelujiah!

    13. Re:Process/Objective Inversion by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 1

      That was you!

  3. Well... by Pojut · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...considering we are a pharmaceutical call center, we pretty much have to invest heavily in HIPAA security.

    1. Re:Well... by Rophuine · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ...considering we are a pharmaceutical call center, we pretty much have to invest heavily in HIPAA security.

      No, and that's the point of TFA. You have to invest heavily in HIPAA compliance. I worked in banking for years, and got a pretty good picture of why it happens this way.

      Here's how it was before compliance:
      [Some random CIO guy] thinks we need X level of security, and that's what we get. But it turns out [SRCIOG] isn't too good at working out how much security we need, so we get hacked and lots of [patients/customers/federal agents] lose all of their [medical records/money/lives]. We fire [SRCIOG] and hire [SRCIOG2], but it turns out we have the same problem.

      Compliance solves the arbitrary nature of the security level we aim at. We're now all aiming at Z, but the problem is [SRCIOG27] still doesn't really know what he's doing, and there's still budget pressure and he still doesn't think we REALLY need all that security because hackers happen to OTHER CIOs. So he looks at Z, and says "How can we meet each objective of Z in the cheapest and least intrusive fashion? After all, we have products to build, and research to do, and this compliance Z target is so expensive and annoying and FOR CRYING OUT LOUD DON'T TELL THE AUDITOR ABOUT THE OFFSITE BACKUP SYSTEM!!!?!"

      So yes, people focus on compliance and spend lots of money to get minimal security: it's a bad solution, but it's better than just letting them set their own (often much lower) standards. Some organisations will get it right, spend the resources appropriately, and end up with a compliance solution which provides real benefits and isn't costly to maintain. The pack, by and large, spend the minimum possible up front, and keep spending and spending and spending every year in order to convince the auditors they're "making good progress".

      Ultimately, compliance doesn't give us security. It gives us a big stick to beat people with when they blatantly ignore security.

    2. Re:Well... by RMH101 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I spent 10 years in pharma IT. Compliance gives you, as the IT tech guy, a stick to hit the bean counters with to justify your security. You have serious licence-to-operative FDA tigers growling at you, and it's no longer acceptable to not bother with some reasonable baseline of security and repeatability - ComVal. If you need to spend a small fortune on fixing a security problem, you'll get it if you phrase your request in terms of compliance.

    3. Re:Well... by Rophuine · · Score: 1

      I've used that stick in finance too. Unfortunately, if I use it to the point my budget starts to be noticed, they start asking other people. And one of those other people could well be [SRCIOG1] chasing his next CIO position. And then it won't matter how important it was to buy those new Host Security Modules.

  4. wasted? by Lord+Ender · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you aren't compliant, you won't be able to sell certain services or take on certain customers. Being compliant is certainly not a waste from a business standpoint.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    1. Re:wasted? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you aren't compliant, you won't be able to sell certain services or take on certain customers. Being compliant is certainly not a waste from a business standpoint.

      Note that if the Feds required that all of your marketing department drive Rolls-Royces, then what you said would still be true.

      It would even be true if the Feds required that any software guy had to wear a clown suit to work.

      Neither of these things is at all relevant to your business, however. And the point of the article is that much of the (unnecessary) compliance requirements of various Federal laws are about as important as my two examples.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    2. Re:wasted? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 3, Informative

      FWIW - PCI-DSS is a requirement of Visa, Mastercard, et al. Not the feds.
      It is an acronym for "Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard."

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    3. Re:wasted? by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So you think that the feds requiring people to protect your health records, for example, is a waste? Would you really rather go back to a time when the same companies didn't care? Sure these compliance laws are usually flawed in many ways, but since this holds the companies accountable for a minimum of data security at least they will do something whereas they would normally do nothing.

    4. Re:wasted? by Jer · · Score: 4, Informative

      The title of the Slashdot summary is unsurprisingly misleading and inflammatory. Reading TFA it doesn't suggest that money going into compliance is "wasted" - it suggests that companies aren't spending enough money to protect their own IP from corporate thieves.

      IOW - the article suggests that companies are spending the same amount of money to protect so-called "custodial" data (i.e. information they've collected about their employees and customers that are protected by HIPAA and other statutes) and their own IP. But the financial losses from losing their own IP are substantially higher than the losses they'll incur through leakage of "custodial" data, so they actually should be spending more money protecting custodial data than they spend on protecting custodial data.

      The underlying assumption in the article is that, unless you've implemented your compliance stupidly, you actually can't fix this disparity by spending less money. You can't cut your budget on compliance because it's required by statute. So instead you should be spending more money on protecting IP assets so that the ratios more realistically reflect the importance of the data being protected. Money that Microsoft and RSA, the funders of the study, are happy to take to help you implement solutions to protect your oh-so-valuable IP assets.

    5. Re:wasted? by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      We the People have decided that certain types of compliance are relevant to certain businesses. If you don't like it, lobby to change the laws. You probably won't have a whole lot of luck convincing people that protecting personal medical data is in the same class as some absurd requirement like "wear a clown suit to work," though.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    6. Re:wasted? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Summary (I didn't read the story, of course), implies that following the regulations doesn't help protect the company's assets. That's good. If the regulations protected the company's assets, you wouldn't need regulations, the company would protect their assets out of self-interest. These regulations are to force companies to protect things they have little financial interest in protecting, but society has an interest in them protecting.

    7. Re:wasted? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Would you really rather go back to a time when the same companies didn't care?

      I think I would because I would like to see the follow-on effects. I believe that most of HIPPA is smoke & mirrors, that violations are rampant and the requirements full of loopholes thus it gives a false sense of security to the public. I would rather the public be made acutely aware of the risks and that instead of just trusting that the law will protect the public, that we start relying on other mechanisms, like minimizing the data we give to health care companies and allow them to keep. It's a lot simpler to avoid disclosing data you don't have than it is to build up a wall of fallible procedures around the data instead.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    8. Re:wasted? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Irrelevant - it's still an economic loss if it doesn't really add value[1] to the product or service being delivered.

      Lead lifejackets sink, regardless of whether they're ISO 9001 certified or not, and regardless of who requires that certification.

      [1] strictly, add more value than it costs

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    9. Re:wasted? by Gerzel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Neither is having a good fire escape strictly relevant to manufacturing shirt-waists, but it is still necessary for a good reason.

      You have to look at why the compliance regulations are there and not if the regulations themselves have anything to do with the business.

      The process is part of the goal in order to make sure things get done and done correctly. While yes many can indeed do things correctly outside of the process and many more might be able to muddle through the process is a form of insurance paid in extra time and labor to make sure things get done right.

    10. Re:wasted? by idontgno · · Score: 1

      OTOH, if your cruise line gets more bookings because you can advertise your ISO 9001 certified life jackets, it's quite possibly a business win. And if a passenger complains about the weight, you can make up some crap about shielding ("for your health") and cosmic rays.

      In other words "add value" actually means "add perceived value". The difference? Marketing.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    11. Re:wasted? by Gerzel · · Score: 1

      Go back in time? Many companies don't care now. In general the larger the company the less they care.

    12. Re:wasted? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The underlying assumption in the article is that, unless you've implemented your compliance stupidly, you actually can't fix this disparity by spending less money. You can't cut your budget on compliance because it's required by statute. So instead you should be spending more money on protecting IP assets so that the ratios more realistically reflect the importance of the data being protected.

      That doesn't make any logical sense. You are comparing mandatory cost A to non-mandatory cost B, and then arguing that because B is twice as important, and you can't change A, you should adjust B until the ratio looks right?

      Maybe the ratio is out of whack because you are required to spend more on A than its importance warrants.

    13. Re:wasted? by ffreeloader · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Government regulations drive up costs, lower profits, and thus cut job creation? Who would have thought it....

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    14. Re:wasted? by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

      Yeah, free market all the way, baby -- I mean, look what getting rid of regulation did for our banking choices!

      Oh, wait...

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    15. Re:wasted? by cheesewire · · Score: 1

      Being compliant is certainly not a waste from a business standpoint

      That's the point, the companies making the software in TFA are all about compliance. As are their customers.

      The problem is that the customers see the software as being effective because of the compliance cited (apparently even in the face of high rates of "failure"). On the flipside the software companies are focusing on being compliant to more extent than making effective software. Probably fueled by having customers who focus on their purchases being compliant.

      Cue a vicious circle. And the whole process becoming a huge waste, despite it apparently being all well and good from a business standpoint.

    16. Re:wasted? by e2d2 · · Score: 1

      Yeah no doubt. Can you imagine how quickly your health records would make it to the data exchanges they use now to trade personal information? Facebook would wet it's pants. I see you suffer from migraines so you should friend Bayer Aspirin!

    17. Re:wasted? by peragrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And that is why your delusions is worse. without HIPPA companies weren't held responsible because it was always some other companies fault. Every company could plead it wasn't us because there was no way to track who was actually responsible.

      There is a reason greed is a deadly sin among some religions. Let's try this another way. dec. of 2006 Circuit city BOD executives noticing a small drop in sales and in need of their bonus checks, fired their top 3000 sales earners. the top 3000 who the company paid the most in salary that weren't managers. But who also accounted for the majority of their sales. They paid themselves tens of millions of dollars in bonuses. By July 2007 Sales were a third of what they should be and by dec. 2007 most stores were closing up as the whole company was bankrupt.

      That same kind of executive thinking is found in the majority of CEO's. read http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/news/1004/gallery.top_ceo_pay/index.html?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin over half the people on this list have gotten major bonuses yet are still posting losses for the same year. Do you want that kind of thinking to have total but deniable control over your health? that is life without HIPPA.

      Just remember the vast majority of laws are there because someone abused something to the detriment of many. The law may not be perfect but having it is better than the alternative.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    18. Re:wasted? by WalkingBear · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Federal requirements to protect health records, financial data, personal information, etc.. are great things. Federal requirements that say "unlawful disclosure of X information will result in Y penalties" is definitely a good thing. Federal requirements stating *HOW* every business within an industry or even across all industries perform a function are outdated at best, counter-productive at worst, before the ink's dry on the legislation.

    19. Re:wasted? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Yeah, free market all the way, baby -- I mean, look what getting rid of regulation did for our banking choices!

      You seem to misunderstand my point. The current situation with respect to HIPAA is more akin to regulatory capture than it is to actual regulation. Same thing with the result of the CDO fiasco and follow-on failures in banking - if the banks had not so effectively captured their own regulatory agencies and the entire government beyond them, we probably wouldn't have seen so many people willing to 'risk' all that money in the first place, and we definitely would not have seen the massive bailout that followed.

      The idea being here that bank industry's excessive risk taking was enabled by the acceptance of that risk by the government. Similarly, the risk taking that public does with their own private health information is enabled by their belief that the risk has being shouldered by the government via regulations. The big difference being that the banks are able to force the government to take on the consequences of that risk, we regular people are not.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    20. Re:wasted? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      And that is why your delusions is worse.

      What do you mean by "that?" My belief that if people weren't mislead into trusting corporations that they would be less cooperative? Or that HIPPA is minimally effective? Or something else that you've projected on to my writings that I didn't say?

      Just remember the vast majority of laws are there because someone abused something to the detriment of many. The law may not be perfect but having it is better than the alternative.

      I don't agree that laws which are the equivalent of "doing something, anything, just do something!!" are better than encouraging people to think critically about their own risk exposure.

      Certainly the case of "The War On Drugs" is a behemoth of a counter example to your claim - look at Portugal for example, 100% legalization since 2001, even meth and cocaine and the result? Less % of the Portuguese have used marijuana than % of Americans who have used cocaine and no incarceration bills versus 30%+ of US inmates serving time for non-violent drug offenses.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    21. Re:wasted? by pclminion · · Score: 1

      So you think that the feds requiring people to protect your health records, for example, is a waste?

      I would rather that my health records are ACTUALLY protected, rather than companies simply complying with regulations which may, or may not, actually protect my health records. The point here is that a lot of resources are being expended in order to comply with regulations. Insofar as complying with regulations actually protects my data, I'm fine with that. But do the regulations actually make anything more secure? Given the government's track record in these areas, I doubt it.

      So yes, I think it's a waste that the government forces corporations to spend a shit ton of money doing things that don't actually help me, instead of spending that money actually securing my data.

    22. Re:wasted? by bearsinthesea · · Score: 1
      An economic loss to who? In the past, some merchants have not had firewalls and sent cardholder data over FTP on the Internet, because it was 'too expensive' to do otherwise.

      PCI may be a loss for the merchant (cost of doing business), but an overall gain if it prevents loss to the card brands or consumers.

    23. Re:wasted? by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Note that if the Feds required that all of your marketing department drive Rolls-Royces, then what you said would still be true.

      It would even be true if the Feds required that any software guy had to wear a clown suit to work.

      Neither of these things is at all relevant to your business, however.

      If the consequence of violating the federal requirements is large fines, throwing your noncompliant employees in prison, and prohibiting you from operating in your current line of business, then they all would be directly relevant to your business.

      If there aren't any consequences for violating the requirements, then, sure, they aren't relevant to your business. And, in that case, I bet you'd find not a lot of money would get spent on compliance, either.

    24. Re:wasted? by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      . I believe that most of HIPPA is smoke & mirrors

      Maybe HIPPA is, but what about HIPAA?

      that violations are rampant

      Of which specific rules, and what is the basis for this belief?

      and the requirements full of loopholes thus it gives a false sense of security to the public.

      Actually, the fact that the part of the public that pays any attention at all hasn't felt secure even with the rules imposed under HIPAA is why those rules have been tightened substantially several times since they were initially imposed. The most recent major legislative tightening of the rules relating to security being in the 2009 HITECH Act (part of the larger "stimulus" act, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act).

      I would rather the public be made acutely aware of the risks and that instead of just trusting that the law will protect the public, that we start relying on other mechanisms, like minimizing the data we give to health care companies and allow them to keep.

      Minimizing the information you provide to your health care provider can have fatal consequences, so that may not be the best choice.

    25. Re:wasted? by mellon · · Score: 1

      Costs are quite high in places where there is no well-regulated market. Regulation is what allows us to make money. Without it, you get guys with guns entirely in control. In the other direction, when regulations exist and are enforced arbitrarily, you get corruption. There's a sweet spot in the middle. It's just as important for people to argue in favor of good regulations as it is for people to argue against bad ones, and it's as important to argue against regulation as it is to argue against corruption. The idea that some set of laws will produce a perfectly-running economic engine is naive--what keeps the economic engine ticking is us doing our best to understand what's working and what's broken about it, fixing what's broken, and encouraging what's working.

      So when you come in with the idea that any regulation is bad, you're not doing that. When you come in with the idea that all regulation is good, you're also not doing that. When you come in and study the situation, and think about it critically, and debate it open-mindedly with people who don't agree with you, that's when you're doing your part to make it all work.

    26. Re:wasted? by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      The article says that more budget is spent on compliance than on security, but so what? I hope the audience for this report is smart enough to know that it is hogwash. I fully expect data security to be cheaper than compliance, so of course compliance takes up more of the budget. I mean, think about it. Once your data security infrastructure is in place, the on-going expenses aren't going to be too high. I don't think the same can be said about your on-going compliance expenses.

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    27. Re:wasted? by Rophuine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that you're right. Compliance doesn't generally add value to the individual product or service. It adds value to the network or industry. Take PCI-DSS and the VISA and MasterCard networks.

      Each individual bank/merchant wants to spend the minimum possible. As one of 30,000 odd banks on the network, or one of however many millions of merchants, they think their odds of being involved in a major breach is pretty small, and the risk of a lot of people losing a lot of money is that they change their name and set up shop down the road (in the case of a merchant), or shake their head, say they're sorry, and spend a million bucks on a brand name security solution (in the case of the banks). If you spend a little bit of money before anything happens, you raise the bar a bit, and reduce your risk a bit, but still, YOUR customers don't really see any benefit to those fee rises, so lots of places just try to sit below the radar of the hackers and the scammers and the other random crims.

      Enter compliance: VISA and MasterCard say "hey, this sucks, nobody will spend money on security 'cause they think it won't happen to THEM. But EVERY SINGLE TIME IT HAPPENS, IT HAPPENS TO US. If each bank has one little problem once a year, we have THIRTY THOUSAND problems, and we're SICK OF IT." So they go to industry and say "you guys have to do this. And this. And this and this and this. And if you don't do it, we're gonna fine you a hundred grand. And if you don't pay the fine AND fix the problem, you're off our network, which pretty much means you're out of business."

      And VISA and MasterCard create a whole new industry, and lots of jobs, and it turns out having a minimum level of security (or at least, a big stick to hit people with if they don't bother with a minimum level of security) is actually a financial plus across the system as a whole, even if it's bad for the some of the businesses. And consumer confidence is up, too, so we have more people spending more money, so even the banks and the merchants are happy in the end (by and large). And VISA and MasterCard say "HEY! This is cool, our profit margins are much better. Let's pay ourselves bigger bonuses."

    28. Re:wasted? by Rophuine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So yes, I think it's a waste that the government forces corporations to spend a shit ton of money doing things that don't actually help me, instead of spending that money actually securing my data.

      You're positing that if HIPAA was removed, industry would take all that wasted compliance money and spend it on security. I postulate that they'd instead take all that wasted compliance money and spend it on Ferraris.

    29. Re:wasted? by Rophuine · · Score: 1

      Actually, they're lowering profits and diverting them to a whole new industry, thus creating jobs. But then fewer people can afford health insurance, so there's less volume, so profits go down. But then compliance firms start to differentiate themselves by offering more complete services for lower prices, creating more competition and driving costs down again. And more people buy insurance again, and innovation steams ahead, jobs are created and fortunes made, and America's a great place.

      And why do you guys care anyway? You've got a public safety net now.

    30. Re:wasted? by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      I miss HIPPA. I work in health IT in a country which doesn't have it(we have health security laws but they're a lot more general and vague), and not having it is more of a pain than having it.

      Security regulations are necessary because "Doing what you've asked for is a bad idea because of X" doesn't work unless X is "the government will come and throw your rear in jail". HIPPA isn't perfect, and regulatory compliance certainly eats up a lot of your time, but the default position for most execs in most industries in regards to security is at best "I don't understand, go away and do what I want" and at worst "I don't care, go away and do what I want" unless you've got some legal muscle to back them up.

      The study basically tells you why we need regulation. 62% of a corporations data assets are their own IP. From a purely economic standpoint, protecting that data makes more sense so, if any data is going to be protected it's going to be that. Great for the corporation, bad for everyone else.

      In an ideal world, execs would understand and value doing the right thing(be it protecting health information, or making sure no one is pulling an Enron), and we could worry more about doing it right than about legislative compliance, but the market as it is currently structured doesn't appreciate security costs unless their are monetary losses or jail time involved.

    31. Re:wasted? by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      Lead lifejackets reminds me of a Navy joke I heard once. A new recruit was an absolutely useless swimmer, despite the repeated attempts to train him. Eventually his Drill Instructor yelled at him in frustration "Sailor, if your ship ever goes down, your best chance is to sink straight to the bottom as fast as you can and run towards the nearest coastline".

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    32. Re:wasted? by ffreeloader · · Score: 1

      And why do you guys care anyway? You've got a public safety net now.

      Uh... Who are the "you guys" you're referring to?

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    33. Re:wasted? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Irrelevant- it's still an economic loss if it doesn't really add value to the product or service being delivered."

      Very interesting wording and probably the very basis of the last economic recession.

      What about trying to add value *to the customer* for a change instead of "to the product or service"?

      Since people like you won't think about it that way regulation becomes a must.

    34. Re:wasted? by Rophuine · · Score: 1

      We're talking about HIPAA, right? Augh no, that was a different thread. Never mind.

    35. Re:wasted? by pclminion · · Score: 1

      You're positing that if HIPAA was removed, industry would take all that wasted compliance money and spend it on security. I postulate that they'd instead take all that wasted compliance money and spend it on Ferraris.

      I'm positing that HIPAA is not a very effective way of forcing companies to secure sensitive data. Clearly, the industry needs some kind of legal motivation for doing so. HIPAA is not it.

    36. Re:wasted? by ffreeloader · · Score: 1

      Without it, you get guys with guns entirely in control.

      Hmmm.... You go to the opposite end of the spectrum and you get guys with guns entirely in control too. All government regs are ultimately enforced at the end of a gun, and I'm ultimately much more distrustful of a government run amok than I am of a business run amok. Right now we seem to have both. Government is sticking their noses into places the founders never designed it should go, and at the same time allowing, and not only allowing but encouraging, corruption in business, through rewarding corrupt practices by bailing out those who engaged in them.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    37. Re:wasted? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good point. Thanks for the info.

      I remember when Circuit City fired their top paid sales people and thought to myself - they are done for.

      But then when they did finally go under, I just accepted that it was the standard (1) over expansion, (2) heavy debt load, (3) bad economy combination that caused them to not be able to make debt payments. I had totally forgotten about the layoffs, and hadn't heard what the actual sales impact was. They can't blame the economy for a sales drop that big back in 2007.

      Actually, I think I got my the big flat panel from Circuit City back in the summer of 2007 because their sale was almost $1,000 off list. Guess those layoffs were good for something. Low sales = good deals. Woot.

    38. Re:wasted? by Rophuine · · Score: 1

      I agree that HIPAA is not a very effective way of forcing companies to secure sensitive data. I think it's better than having no regulation at all, but I'm not sure if we have a good model for improving it. When someone comes up with an effective and efficient way of regulating this sort of thing, they'll probably just realise that it's no way to make money, and go into HIPAA compliance instead.

      Actually, we may be stuck with crap like HIPAA because it's at the optimum profit point for some particular interest in the process. Less onerous? Not enough support from people writing it who hope to make money doing compliance work in the future. More onerous? Too much backlash from industry. Thoughts?

    39. Re:wasted? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      The customer is the judge of what "adds value" and they vote with their wallet.

      If ISO 9001 says life jackets must float and the customer demands lead life jackets that comply with ISO 9001 then simply make hollow lead life jackets that float and pocket the fools money.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    40. Re:wasted? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      There's a big difference between HIPAA and the war on drugs, one is an enforceable regulation on a corporate activity the other is an unenforcable prohibition on a social activity. The reason for success in Portugal and the Netherlands is they are regulating drugs as opposed to prohibiting them.

      BTW: Technically drugs are still illegal in both countries due to international treaties, it's the enforcement policy that has changed.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    41. Re:wasted? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Note that if the Feds required that all of your marketing department drive Rolls-Royces, then what you said would still be true.

      It would even be true if the Feds required that any software guy had to wear a clown suit to work.

      Neither of these things is at all relevant to your business, however.

      If the consequence of violating the federal requirements is large fines, throwing your noncompliant employees in prison, and prohibiting you from operating in your current line of business, then they all would be directly relevant to your business.

      So, any Federal regulations are, by definition, good, since, by definition, they're all relevant to your business?

      There's a big difference between "protect people's privacy" and

      1) Pass Federal regulations mandating that everyone follow a certain process to ostensibly (but not really) protect people's privacy

      2)????

      3) Profit!

      For any particular set of Federal regulations, the question should be "does this accomplish the intended purpose?"

      For some regulations, the answer is "yes". For some, it's "no".

      Realizing that not all regulations work as intended, even if they have a large compliance requirement built-in, is a first step in the process of replacing broken regulations with useful ones.

      Note, of course, that some Federal regulations exist so as to allow your Congresscritter to write exceptions to same for his large contributors. That particular subset of regulations is "working as intended" if it has costly compliance requirements that demonstrably do nothing worthwhile, so they're okay....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    42. Re:wasted? by peragrin · · Score: 1

      but your forgetting that the average person is a moron. They aren't smart enough to understand that they have a risk exposure, let alone how to protect themselves. Not to mention since the standard of our culture and all cultures is to shut up about any topic that is too complicated it doesn't get talked about enough for people to learn that hey actually have risk exposures. It took congressional committees and decades to enact HIPPA. The final law change may have been quick but 20-30 years of abuses had to be recorded before anyone stood up and said stop.

      I am not going to get into a debate on just how stupid the average person is.

      Try looking at the whole picture. legalized drugs would be abused more so than they are now. look at legalized alcohol and the problems it causes and multiple that with the various effects drugs have. Americans like to abuse things because of their closed Puritan culture, compare our censorship laws and degrees to that of europe? How many nude beaches are in the USA?? Why is saying the word drugs, or pussy bad on the radio and tv? Why does a 5 second glimpse of boob make a move r rated, and why are movies so heavily edited for network tv? most of that isn't done by europe.

      Learn the real differences in culture, society, and where they really come from and you might learn why i consider you delusional. from there if your smart enough you can adjust your beliefs to what you see is right.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    43. Re:wasted? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      I am not going to get into a debate on just how stupid the average person is.

      Well, given that your entire rebuttal is based on that belief I guess you don't really have much to say.
      Just be aware that you are well on the path to authoritarianism with that belief system.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    44. Re:wasted? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      There's a big difference between HIPAA and the war on drugs, one is an enforceable regulation on a corporate activity the other is an unenforcable prohibition on a social activity.

      Forest and trees dude, forest and trees.

      The point being illustrated is that, "Just remember the vast majority of laws are there because someone abused something to the detriment of many. The law may not be perfect but having it is better than the alternative." is demonstrably false, drug laws being just one hugely blatant example where the law is NOT better than the alternative.

      Just to indulge you though - HIPPA is not enforceable any more than most drug laws are, the amount of effort it would take for consistent enforcement of HIPPA is gynormous. Ask just about anyone who works in the medical field with more than a cursory understanding of HIPPA and they'll tell you that HIPPA violations are rampant. The primary reason so few are punished is because only rarely does a violation lead to harm and of those, so few can actually be traced back to the original violation.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    45. Re:wasted? by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Federal requirements stating *HOW* every business within an industry or even across all industries perform a function are outdated at best, counter-productive at worst...

      It seems designed to let the company off the hook. As long as they "followed procedure", well, then, it couldn't be helped. Might preempt a lot of lawsuits.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    46. Re:wasted? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      An economic loss to who?

      If you need to ask that, you don't understand the problem. Try reading up on the broken window fallacy.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    47. Re:wasted? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      it turns out having a minimum level of security (or at least, a big stick to hit people with if they don't bother with a minimum level of security) is actually a financial plus across the system as a whole

      Are you sure it's true? It might be, but it could also be that overall, every 100 dollars spent on security reduces fraud by only 60 dollars. Your point about where the burden falls is valid, but for the economy as a whole it's be better to just not bother.

      Remember we were originally talking about compliance in general. It's quite possible that a lot of things that you have to do (it's on the list!) are useless or even counterproductive and things that would help don't get done (we only have the budget for the essentials! (where essentials = the list) )

      I'm always wary of paint-by-numbers approaches; they're written by incompetents, mandated by charlatans and performed by idiots.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    48. Re:wasted? by Rophuine · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Are you sure it's true? It might be, but it could also be that overall, every 100 dollars spent on security reduces fraud by only 60 dollars. Your point about where the burden falls is valid, but for the economy as a whole it's be better to just not bother.

      I'll counter with the same question: Are you sure it's true? PCI-DSS is an unusual example, because it's market-driven and there is competition. The PCI-DSS was developed by MasterCard. VISA have their own (similar) compliance program. American Express do something different again. There are all sorts of smaller card schemes which would like to compete, again with their own rules. VISA and MasterCard focus on security, while smaller schemes often go for enhanced services or lower fees. Again, PCI-DSS is driven by whatever generates the most Ferraris (which while not necessarily great for consumers, is kinda the foundation of capitalism - and thus, hard to separate, at least for me).

      In general terms, with things like medical privacy, doing it without a regulatory need generates 0 Ferraris. Doing it when there is a regulatory requirement (or at least, faking it) prevents the regulator from reducing your otherwise-positive Ferrari generation to zero (or worse, taking away Ferraris).

      I agree that lots of things on 'The List' (when making sure you're compliant) are going to be value-less. Some of them are probably counter-productive, in that they take away from Money-You-Would-Totally-Spend-On-Voluntary-Compliance-Initiatives-Not-Ferraris. But that was kinda my point: MasterCard doesn't care how many Ferraris YOU (as a bank/merchant/poor sucker who has to comply with PCI-DSS) earn. They care about how many Ferraris THEY earn. So you will install high-security mesh above your ceiling and encrypt all of your emails, even if neither of those things actually increases the security of your particular offering.

      Sadly, MasterCard were neither incompetent, nor charlatans, nor idiots, when writing the PCI-DSS: they just weren't very interested in protecting your money, except so far as it protected theirs. So, when it comes to government departments developing compliance schemes, what are they protecting? Their own jobs and reputations. And the best way to get fired from a cushy government job writing compliance documents for HIPAA? Write something that lets millions of patient records become public. The best way to keep getting paid? Make sure it's so long-winded and complicated that it would take forever to train your replacement.

      Thus, just like an under-graduate engineer on their first bridge design assignment: over-engineer, over-engineer, over-engineer.

    49. Re:wasted? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      There's an element of truth in what you say, but it was more a case of "everybody's doing it, so we have to"; of course that becomes self perpetuating. Emperor's new clothes and all that.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    50. Re:wasted? by iserlohn · · Score: 1

      The government was forced its hand not directly because of how regulation was handled, but directly because of the size of the market participants.

      Even if the government had no hand at all in regulation, it would still be forced to take action because with the largest financial institutions insolvent, the economy would collapse.

      The "capture" of the regulatory agencies is a different problem related to the effectiveness of regulation.

    51. Re:wasted? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you think that the feds requiring people to protect your health records, for example, is a waste?

      The feds do not require that people protect your health records. The feds require you to take steps to show you have protected your health records but those steps may or may not actually provide effective protection. If they are compliant and your records are compromised, they will face zero legal liability. In a legal system without corporate lobbying this would probably not pose much of a problem. Legislating process rather than results makes it easier to do business but makes it very likely that the information in question will be subject to compromise.

      Would you really rather go back to a time when the same companies didn't care? Sure these compliance laws are usually flawed in many ways, but since this holds the companies accountable for a minimum of data security at least they will do something whereas they would normally do nothing.

      No and agreed.

    52. Re:wasted? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      The government was forced its hand not directly because of how regulation was handled, but directly because of the size of the market participants.

      Yeahhh, not so much. That's the line the public was sold on amidst the hysteria of the moment.

      If you don't believe that regulatory capture was part of the process, just look at how many 'former' wall-street guys came in with Obama.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    53. Re:wasted? by perlchild · · Score: 1

      Well as far as PCI-DSS is concerned RSA is also a compliance player, at least in terms of many of their products, so it's even a win-win for them.

    54. Re:wasted? by mortalic · · Score: 1

      "Compliance doesn't generally add value to the individual product or service. It adds value to the network or industry." Well in our case it's both, I work for a company that specializes in writing credit union software, thus PCI-DSS is a MAJOR port of our jobs right now. At one point in a meeting with our dev team they said, "We don't know anything about security, we're developers" I about had a heart attack, but now after some coaxing and pointing out what they must change for compliance, our software is slowly (as in not yet) getting better. Better because we now have processes in place for application and OS vulnerability scanning (it was REALLY bad), standardized installation procedures among other things. So our individual product is/will be MUCH better by the time we have our audit, but since we are one of the big players in the payment card network everyone benefits.

    55. Re:wasted? by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, HIPAA is very much like mandating a fire escape but not requiring that it should not stop 40ft above the ground. And also that it should be gold plated.

    56. Re:wasted? by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      So, any Federal regulations are, by definition, good, since, by definition, they're all relevant to your business?

      Uh, no.

      Your post is the first in the exchange to refer to "good" or anything like it. Anything that has negative consequences for your bottom line (including, inter alia, any federal, state, local, or other regulation that is enforced against your business) is relevant to your business, and therefore a place where it may make sense to spend money to assure that negative consequences do not occur.

      Whether the regulation itself is "good", desirable, etc., is a completely separate and unrelated question to whether or not it is relevant to your business and an appropriate and even necessary place to spend resources given its existence.

      For any particular set of Federal regulations, the question should be "does this accomplish the intended purpose?"

      There are lots of appropriate questions about federal regulations; which are relevant depend on the context. If the context is a discussion of the appropriateness of the regulations themselves, the set of key questions includes not just "does the regulation accomplish its intended purpose?" but also:
      1. "Is the regulation within the authority of the body issuing the regulation?"
      2. "Does the regulation minimize the undesirable side effects it creates in the process of acheiving the intended purpose?"
      3. "Are the beneficial effects of the regulation -- both including the intended effect and any positive side effects -- sufficient to outweigh the negative side effects?"

      OTOH, if the context is "given the existence of the regulation, what resources, if any, is it appropriate for my business to spend on compliance?", then most of those questions (including "does the regulation accomplish its intended purpose?") are not relevant at all.

    57. Re:wasted? by bearsinthesea · · Score: 1

      An economic loss to who?

      If you need to ask that, you don't understand the problem. Try reading up on the broken window fallacy.

      If you need to ask that, perhaps you need to read up on this.

      Obviously it is a small economical loss to the merchant, but it prevents much larger losses by others. This is called an externality.

    58. Re:wasted? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Obviously it is a small economical loss to the merchant, but it prevents much larger losses by others.

      I was talking about a situation where the cost of security outweighs the cost of the fraud it attempts to prevent. Interesting definition of "larger" you have there.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  5. Driven mainly by the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I suspect they are being driven by the regulations they are forced to comply with. They can't decide to play by their own rules.

  6. So you're saying by compucomp2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If there were no regulations and standards, then all the money would be funneled into actual security protocols?

    Doesn't seem like that would be the case, especially since they are now just "going through the motions" to ensure compliance with regulations. The companies may well ignore data security altogether. By complying with regulations there is at least some level of security.

    It's like the teachers' complaint that standardized tests force them to "teach to the test", well at least they're teaching something rather than nothing, which was the point of the test in the first place.

    1. Re:So you're saying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The astute teacher will note that this means there's a more severe problem (teachers who aren't teaching) and if the "solution" is to introduce something that prevents both groups from doing anything but preparing kids for the test, then I wouldn't call that a success. If your goal is just to make it look like you're doing something, then I guess you'd call that a success, but for those of us who care about the next generation, it's a failure of biblical proportions.

      The US Government: If it ain't broke, fix it til it is!

    2. Re:So you're saying by Eskarel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And the astute teacher would be right, but still a crappy teacher.

      However, the only way to find teachers who aren't teaching before it's too late is to periodically check their performance which means testing the students to see what they know.

      The good teacher might question whether the test was doing an adequate job of measuring their performance(is it actually checking if the students are being taught what they need to know as opposed to what is on the test), and they might complain about the burden the test put on them when they're doing their job correctly, but they'd understand what the test was for.

      Compliance is an expensive exercise, be it through testing or audits or whatever other avenue it might arrive, but the only way to determine whether someone is doing what they say they are before it's too late to change things is to check every so often. The issue for discussion is whether the checks are checking the right things.

    3. Re:So you're saying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Teachers usually make the tests themselves*, so your analogy kind of breaks there. Companies don't make the standards, and they have less to gain by having good standards. However, if teachers make bad tests to make themselves look good, the difference with other classes taking the same test would show up, or in the case of students**, there would be complaints.

      * in collaboration with other teachers; so a group of math teachers make the math test. this is assuming we're talking about middle/high school
      **university students, anyway.

    4. Re:So you're saying by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      Not the standardized ones, yes they're teachers making them, but not the same ones being tested.

  7. Wow, way to miss the point. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If a company's IP is insecure, it may, possibly, lose some money. If data which falls under regulation is insecure, people go to prison. This is exactly as it should be, and so the "imbalance" is entirely appropriate.

    I suppose the folks at Forrester Research think that IP protection is more important than protecting, say, personal medical information. Fortunately, most people in the world are sane enough to disagree.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    1. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If a company's IP is insecure, it may, possibly, lose some money. If data which falls under regulation is insecure, people go to prison. This is exactly as it should be, and so the "imbalance" is entirely appropriate.

      I suppose the folks at Forrester Research think that IP protection is more important than protecting, say, personal medical information. Fortunately, most people in the world are sane enough to disagree.

      An important correction: if data which falls under regulation is not kept according to the regulation people go to prison. If following the regulation decreases the security of the data, no problem.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      An important correction: if data which falls under regulation is not kept according to the regulation people go to prison. If following the regulation decreases the security of the data, no problem.

      Fair enough, and if you can show that following HIPAA regulations makes personal medical data less secure, go for it. But the article doesn't address this point at all. They're talking solely about the relative value of corporate IP vs. data such as medical and credit information which is covered by regulation, and making the (absurd, to most people with a brain) argument that because the first is more valuable to the corporation than the second, corporations should spend their security dollars accordingly. In the absence of regulation, of course, this is exactly what would happen; the laws which specify harsh penalties for non-compliance are an entirely appropriate correction to this tendency.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    3. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 1

      Who has gone to prison (in the US) for not securing data, pre the standards being discussed in the article?

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    4. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who has gone to prison (in the US) for not securing data, pre the standards being discussed in the article?

      Before the standards were in place? Nobody, of course. Which is why the standards were put in place!

      If you think the standards are unrealistic, or don't achieve their objectives, or could be implemented better ... fine, those are all valid points. But TFA doesn't address that at all. The point of HIPAA, PCI-DSS et al. is to ensure that corporations which deal with sensitive personal data take appropriate care with that data. Apparently some people in the exceutive suite are whining that they have to spend too much money protecting other people's information, because even though having the data is absolutely necessary to running their business, protecting it takes too much time and money. Well, cry me a river.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    5. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the company's IP is insecure there's a very good chance the company will be put out of business by a competitor, so starving IP protection to comply with regulations is probably worse for the company than seeing a few employees go to jail.

      But the important point in all of this is that both IP protection and reg compliance cost a lot of money. HIPPA is costing health care consumers in the US billions of dollars; whether that's money well spent or not, it's money that's being spent.

    6. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 1

      No, since the standards were put in place, obviously. There have been some fairly extensive violations. Some companies have violated HIPAA multiple times. Who has gone to jail?

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    7. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

      PCI is a contractual thing rather than a criminal law, and unless I'm unusually badly mistaken the criminal penalties of HIPAA only come up for deliberate breaches (e.g. selling Tiger Woods's STD report to the National Enquirer, as opposed to being careless with infosec).

    8. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Well, for all intents and purposes Forrester Research is just another Microsoft marketing division, so I'd say your statement was probably spot on.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    9. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      I suppose the folks at Forrester Research think that IP protection is more important than protecting, say, personal medical information.

      We can't make that supposition based on this paper.

      What we can suppose is that the people at Forrester Research think that getting paid to write white papers is more important than what they personally think. :)

      That's my view on Forrester, Gartner, etc.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    10. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, since the standards were put in place, obviously

      pre and per are so close together yet so far in meaning...

    11. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Nobody in corporate world goes to prison for any violation, they get bailouts.

      People who go to prison from the corporate world are not going there for actual violations of the law but for different reasons. For example Bernard Madoff is in prison not because of anything that the government could do to him but because if he stayed out of prison he would have been dead by now.

    12. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      PCI is a contractual thing rather than a criminal law, and unless I'm unusually badly mistaken the criminal penalties of HIPAA only come up for deliberate breaches (e.g. selling Tiger Woods's STD report to the National Enquirer, as opposed to being careless with infosec).

      You are mistaken: while the most serious category of criminal penalty under HIPAA (up to $250,000 fine and up to 10 years in prison) is reserved for offenses involving the intent to sell, transfer, or use individually identifiable health information for commercial advantage, gain or malicious harm. Lesser offenses include violations committed under false pretenses (up to $100,000 fine and up to 5 years in prison) that don't meet the intent requirement for the most serious offense category, and even simple offenses (those that neither involve false pretenses nor the intent requirement for the most serious category) which are subject to a $50,000 fine and imprisonment for up to a year.

    13. Re:Wow, way to miss the point. by profplump · · Score: 2, Informative

      I know for a fact that some insurers and claims processors have stopped using encrypted archives and moved to faxes for "secure" documents, because faxes only fall under the privacy rule, not the security rule, and their archive vendor would not indemnify them against security rule violations.

      I seriously doubt this is the only example of "following the specific rules decreases system security" related HIPAA or any other rule-based security policy/regulation. It's pretty much a given that any new rule you enact will result in people changing their behavior to avoid the scope of the rule rather than simply complying with the rule; it happens even with 8-year-olds who want to stay up late, let alone managers who spend all day looking for a way to gain $0.02/unit over the competition.

      --

      And let's not even get into the harm caused by selling people "secure" systems that are not. For example, most "secure" email solutions neither guarantee encryption of outbound mail nor provide authentication of the intended recipient. But since they comply with the specific requirements of the relevant regulation we buy them anyway. Then users feel safe in sending sensitive information over the new "secure" system -- information that they may never have sent if we didn't tell them it was secure -- thereby increasing the risk profile while at the same time wasting money on non-secure "security" systems, all in the name of regulatory compliance.

  8. "waste"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having been deeply involved in HIPAA privacy protection for a large, monocolor insurance company in the state that hosts the NCAA men's basketball team with the greatest momentum I can state that the company's customers would likely not consider the investment a waste. I think this looks like Microsoft and RSA have asked Forrester for some product and service marketing help. Not that corporate IP is not important, for many companies the expenditure does not mean much of a financial payback.

  9. Well That Makes Sense by TheNinjaroach · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Regulations are in place to force companies to protect data that they would otherwise have very little incentive to protect. Protecting data that is important to the company itself comes naturally and does not require mandates.

    --
    I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
    1. Re:Well That Makes Sense by fandingo · · Score: 1

      Well said. This is the entire purpose of regulation. Mod parent up.

    2. Re:Well That Makes Sense by guruevi · · Score: 2, Informative

      The main problem with most compliance protocols (HIPAA or PCI) is that at best they do nothing at all, at worst it's actually counterproductive as it opens the company up to more breaches (due to human nature, laziness or conflicting policies).

      I am involved in both HIPAA and PCI compliance and in the past I have been involved with Sarbanes-Oxley as well. For example with PCI as well as Federal wiretapping compliance, you need to have your respectively wireless and public networks (if you're a de-facto wireless internet provider to random strangers - eg. libraries, universities, ...) run through a separate (3rd party) provider and needs to be either logically or physically divided from the main network. Therefore, anyone on your public or wireless network will have to tunnel a VPN through a 3rd party provider, route it out to the internet and back into your primary provider to get work done which makes the whole system inherently less secure because your data goes outside your network.

      PCI requires a firewall before your internet facing servers but also a perimeter firewall (if you have a really large institution) before all your edges even though you may have separate departmental firewalls. This does not make sense as you get to have 2 or 3 layers of firewalls - the first 2 layers being the ones that were historically built-up and the 3rd layer, a concentrated firewall and internet provider hub which becomes 1) easier to attack because it's all in one point, 2) easier to fail for the same reason, 3) more difficult to maintain because you still need the hierarchy of departmental firewalls to prevent attacks from other departments or other points in the network.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    3. Re:Well That Makes Sense by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

      You might think so, and there are probably organizations where that's true, but in my practice I've been getting clients I never would have before who've been jolted out of apathy by finding that there are security measures that someone else is telling them to take.

    4. Re:Well That Makes Sense by bearsinthesea · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you have some misconceptions about PCI. "At best", I have seen PCI make companies improve firewall rules, secure WLANs, and encrypt your plaintext credit card numbers (for starters).

      If someone has told you that PCI requires using a 3rd party provider for public networks, you should get a second opinion. I have never seen that required or implemented.

      Similarly, your firewall problem seems specific to your implementation. PCI requires firewalls between public networks and the cardholder data environment. Internal firewalls are not required, but are usually used to limit the scope of PCI. You don't want to make your CEO or secretary's computer PCI compliant, so you use firewalls to isolate only the systems in the cardholder data environment. You don't -have- to do this, but it makes things easier. I don't understand specifically what you mean by "a concentrated firewall and internet provider hub", but it does not sound like something required by PCI. Although it may have been a system designed by your organization to make compliance easier.

    5. Re:Well That Makes Sense by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      From what it sounds like PCI did not require that 3rd firewall from your ISP but it could have made there lives a lot easier. PCI is more corp than general fed regulations since it's not from the feds. If your ISP had some certified Platform to run yall through and an insurance plan it makes a lot of sense to use them. From a risk standpoint you now have somebody else to blame / sue if somethings happens and they have an insurance policy to cover those damages. Your effectively buying insurance with an technical bit thrown in and a middle man to take the PR hit.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    6. Re:Well That Makes Sense by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Looks hard for sarcasm tags

  10. Checklist Security... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    their security programs are driven mainly by compliance, rather than protection (PDF).

    Sadly, this seems to be the way of the world. Even the things you would expect to be high-security, like classified information, tends to get this sort of treatment. I like to call it "Checklist Security" because most of the people doing security work are more interested in checking off steps an official procedure to CYA themselves than to make sure that whatever they are trying to protect is actually secured.

    The TSA is another classic example - no containers of liquid greater than 100ml on the plane because that's on the checklist, but indiscriminate dumping of hundreds of them into one big trash bucket next to 30+ people in line at the checkpoint is fine because that's not on the checklist.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    1. Re:Checklist Security... by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      The TSA is another classic example - no containers of liquid greater than 100ml on the plane because that's on the checklist, but indiscriminate dumping of hundreds of them into one big trash bucket next to 30+ people in line at the checkpoint is fine because that's not on the checklist.

      It's always a fun discussion to have with the security personnel (just make sure it's not one you have at the airport).

      "Suppose you saw someone with what looked like a hand grenade on his belt, would you tell him to just dump it in the bin?"
      "Well, no, I'd call the cops on his ass and bring in the bomb squad."
      "But the greater than 100 ml liquid container that might be an explosive, is dumped into the 100 liter bin with the 20 liters already in there?"
      "Uhm ..."
      "So now you have 20 liters of potential explosive liquids in that bin."
      "Ehh ..."
      "Suppose someone discarded an innocent looking packet of cigarettes into the bin, would you be concerned?"
      "Well ... no. People throw all kinds of crap in there."
      "And if I told you that you could build a small detonator that fits perfectly fine inside of an empty packet of cigarettes?"

    2. Re:Checklist Security... by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

      Box-checking mostly deserves its bad reputation, but I feel so sorry for it that I'm moved to defend it a little.

      Box-checking helps prevent security-aware people from overlooking something.

      Box-checking helps prevent security-unaware people from doing nothing.

    3. Re:Checklist Security... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Box-checking mostly deserves its bad reputation, but I feel so sorry for it that I'm moved to defend it a little.

      I'm a big fan of checklists as a tool.
      But in the security domain too often they are an end rather than a means.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    4. Re:Checklist Security... by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Actually, box-checking is a great way of making sure everything on the list gets done (when you have a way to check to make sure that whoever is checking the boxes is actually doing the work and not just taking 30 seconds to fill in the blanks).

      The problems arise when the checklist is put together by people without a clue and/or has no mechanism for updating it in a timely manner. The checklist ends up missing important things that never get added or having extra checkboxes that don't fit the goal of the list and distract the user from actual issues.

      Committees are the classic example of the former ("all of us is dumber than any of us"), laws are the classic example of the latter. When they both get together, expect a checklist that fails to solve last year's problems.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  11. Complying with the law is not wasted money by Bearhouse · · Score: 1

    For corporate officers, it's essential.
    The problem arises when scare resources, and inadequate competence, mean that 'are we secure?' becomes 'are we complying?'
    Hence the tenancy to run towards out of the box 'solutions' that are often far from 100% secure.
    We, (IT guys) have our share of responsibility; it's very difficult, (but not impossible), to get senior management to take this point seriously.
    Tip: I normally wait for a 'AMG Google hacked by the Chinese' news item before pouncing...

  12. CIP Anyone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Look up critical infrastructure protection for a good example of a waste of time and money. Nebulous requirements that are audited to subjective standards by an agency that is funded by the fines they generate. What could possibly be wrong with that? When you see your electric bill rising this would be at least part of the reason why. It started out with good enough intentions: hold utilities accountable for the security of the systems used to provide critical services. However in practice it's more about generating fines than it is about ensuring security.

  13. It's more than IT compliance by grimsnaggle · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My school, working with VW, built a new building for automotive projects. It has handicapped parking spaces, handicapped showers and bathroom stalls, male and female restrooms, and multiple chemical showers. There are few handicapped people in the school, fewer in engineering, and none on any of the automotive teams - for obvious reasons. There are also very few females, to the point that unisex bathrooms (like those used in more gender-normal parts of campus) would have been a fine option.

    There's also wasted space for clearance around electrical panels (which are everywhere), inspection points, etc. All told, some 30% of the square footage of the new building is wasted by complying with regulations. And the government charged us $130/sq ft just for the permit.

    And we wonder why China is whipping our ass...

    1. Re:It's more than IT compliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless all the administration is run by engineering students, and you are never going to host any projects that may be useful to the disabled, those disabled facilities might actually see use. What are those chemical showers about, though?

    2. Re:It's more than IT compliance by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      $130/sq ft for the permit? Usually commercial buildings go for $145-$300/sq ft. Maybe you meant $13/sq ft? Actually which 'government'? The one that operates the school, the one that runs things where the school is? Of course, if it's the Chatanooga school, well, doesn't seem so different from many places in the U.S. Not many 'governments' here charge you even half of the construction cost for permits, but ya learn something new every day.

      And clearance around utilities and equipment isn't 'wasted space'. You will know this when you get out into a real shop for your first job and are happy for the wasted space around your lift. Just being able to let the snow drip off is reason enough for a little room. Being able to actually reach inspection points to find that first roof leak will be reason enough also. Resetting a breaker when your buddy saws through his power cord is so much easier when you don't have to move two vehicles out of the way. In the dark.

      30% for clearance? Sounds pretty economical to me. The test assembly line will need that much alone.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    3. Re:It's more than IT compliance by oatworm · · Score: 1

      Cars have chemicals in them and are frequently serviced with other chemicals. Ever get gasket remover on an un-gloved hand before? Heck, ever spray gasket remover on a latex glove? Now imagine getting some accidentally sprayed near your face or something similar. Not fun.

    4. Re:It's more than IT compliance by vlm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sometimes things are overbuilt for future use. For example in my area a large building at the local CC was designed and built for a "printing industry center of excellence". Crashed and burned, now they have general ed classes in the empty rooms.

      The womens bathrooms will get more use when VW moves out and nursing holds some classes in the empty rooms. Or the handicapped folks training to become accountants, or whatever.

      I find it highly unlikely you'll pay $130/sq for a permit alone. Maybe total project cost from say go until first class is held.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    5. Re:It's more than IT compliance by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      $130/sq ft for the permit? Usually commercial buildings go for $145-$300/sq ft. Maybe you meant $13/sq ft?

      I'm confused by your "correction." He said $130, you say they go from $145-$300... sounds definitely close to the correct value to me. Then you propose he meant a value 10 times less? Huh?

    6. Re:It's more than IT compliance by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      No, I said CONSTRUCTION COSTS were $145-$300/sq ft. The poster said PERMITS were $130/sq ft.

      I seriously doubt permits go for any appreciable fraction of building costs. Some local levy might, but permits? After about 15% I would think something is wrong.

      Of course, there is always something wrong with the permitting process...

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    7. Re:It's more than IT compliance by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I'm confused by your "correction." He said $130, you say they go from $145-$300... sounds definitely close to the correct value to me. Then you propose he meant a value 10 times less? Huh?

      I think he's saying permit fees are approximately equal to building costs in his jurisdiction.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    8. Re:It's more than IT compliance by grimsnaggle · · Score: 1

      Yep, they also put in exhaust removers. Too bad all of the research cars are electric.

    9. Re:It's more than IT compliance by grimsnaggle · · Score: 1

      $130/sq ft. You read correctly. That's Santa Clara county government. It's because the school is non-profit and the bureaucrats decided they needed another way to get money. It's a 8000 sq ft concrete pad with 6000 square feet of interior space. It cost $4M to build.

      My jobs have all had much less wasted space. 1-2 handicapped spots out of 40-50 spots. Not 1-2 handicapped spots out of 5 total. They don't have multiple eye-wash stations within 5 seconds' walk of each other. They have more than 2 urinals / 400 sq ft in the bathroom. It's being treated differently than commercial space because it's considered an academic lab.

    10. Re:It's more than IT compliance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad all of the research cars are electric.

      You'll thank them when someone shorts a lithium battery.

  14. Sounds about right by VTI9600 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What TFA refers to as "custodial data" (customer PII, CC numbers, etc.) *should* be protected by compliance with government and industry-specific regulation. If a company wants to shoot itself in the foot by not protecting intellectual property, trade secrets, sales leads, etc. then let them. CxO's far more likely to be paranoid about security of their precious secrets than with their customer's data anyway, since one is an asset while the other is a burden (security-wise).

    1. Re:Sounds about right by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      How do you protect intellectual property data and at the same time allow people to work on it?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:Sounds about right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Infect them with a deep-structure metavirus that allows easy human neuro-programming. Preferably with some nam-shub protection in version 2. Side effects include glossolalia, and one in 20 subjects needing an antenna grafted to their skull for efficient 'me' broadcasting.

    3. Re:Sounds about right by oatworm · · Score: 1

      Use the usual suspects - auditing and access controls. Make sure nobody that shouldn't or needn't have access to it does and keep track of when/where/what/how/why those that do are accessing it. Many of the security regulations deal with the "what" part (PCI-DSS says you normally don't get to keep your customer's credit card number, no matter how profitable it might be for you to keep it lying around in an Excel spreadsheet somewhere) and the "how" part (no, you don't get to access your medical network through an unsecured, unencrypted wireless LAN).

    4. Re:Sounds about right by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Make sure nobody that shouldn't or needn't have access to it does

      How can someone work on it when they don't have access to it? You know, we want to stop our sales people having access to the customer database - that kind of thing. Well confiscate their pencils and poke their eyes out...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    5. Re:Sounds about right by oatworm · · Score: 1

      Easy. First, define what parts of the customer database they absolutely need access to and what kind of access they need. Does every salesperson need all of the information about every customer, or can you just hand them the customer records that they absolutely need? Are there certain records in the database that you don't want them overwriting (pricing/financial/etc.) that they do need write access to? Are there certain records that they absolutely do not need to be able to read?

      Then, once you've identified and defined what parts of the database they need access to and the minimum level of access they need to those parts to get work done, you then audit everything they're allowed to touch. Who edited this record when? When did Bob Salesguy last view this record? When did Jill Salesgirl create this customer record? Who updated the contact name and address on Fabrikam Northwinds, Inc.?

      Of course, once you've defined what kind of access you want to provide and how much of an audit trail you need, the next step is to see if your existing infrastructure can support that. Are there parts missing (parts of the audit trail, etc.)? Is it technically impossible or really difficult with what you're currently using (database is in an Access DB that can be carried on a USB stick)?

      Ultimately, it all comes down to least privilege. You want to give them the least amount of access possible that lets them do their jobs, and not a whit more. Define how to do that and you've defined a security process.

    6. Re:Sounds about right by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Who "identifies and defines" who has access to what? You've just moved the problem.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:Sounds about right by oatworm · · Score: 1

      Who "identifies and defines" who has access to what?

      Depends on how your organization is structured. It might be IT, but, whether it is or not, somebody is going to need to talk to the salespeople and their bosses to find out how they work and what they really need to get their jobs done. Generally, there's going to be some give and take - sales will want as much access as humanly possible but other departments (finance, accounting, etc.) will want to curtail that. Somebody will ultimately have to be responsible for finding the right balance between what sales wants, what sales needs, and what everybody needs to protect. That somebody might be you, or it might be your boss, or it might be an outside auditor. It really doesn't matter.

      You've just moved the problem.

      Not really. Security is a constantly evolving process and, in the end, somebody (or something) has to ultimately be responsible for how that process evolves within an organization. Part of the problem, as you seem to intuitively understand, is that security can frequently get in the way of people's jobs; when that happens, people will do everything they can to circumvent those obstructions so they can get their work done. Keep in mind that the most secure computing system in the planet is one that's unplugged and encased in a concrete and steel bunker; it's also not going to be particularly useful. If there's something you need to keep from a group of people that the group needs to get their jobs done, you either need to change their job descriptions so they don't need that bit of information anymore or you need to rethink the problem - maybe you don't (or can't) keep the information from them, so you'll instead have to settle for knowing when and how they're accessing it and what they're doing with it.

  15. DDA compliance by kiehlster · · Score: 1

    Maybe security compliance might be a waste of money (eg, security through obscurity), but lets not forget that if your website isn't accessible to the disabled that you can be sued for it. I'm not sure if there are any state or federal mandated security requirements, but I imagine consumers can sue you after a break-in when you're not security compliant.

  16. Duh! by LazLong · · Score: 1

    Learned this at LLNL. The computer security people there don't care about real security, they care about compliance. Else, they wouldn't have non-technical people such as ex-secretaries auditing and approving compliance with internal and US gov't regulations. "What is this dhcp thingy you are talking about?" "What is a domain?" "You're using logic; this is computer security."

    Seems to be a typical management mentality - _appearing_ compliant, while not achieving the goals that the compliance is supposed to achieve.

    1. Re:Duh! by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      What you say is true, but has nothing to do with what's being discussed in TFA. Read it again -- they're very cleverly conflating the "compliance vs. actual security" issue, which is a real and valid concern, with the "stupid Feds are making us spend money on protecting worthless crap like individual credit and medical records instead of the IP that makes us money!" whine, which should be dismissed immediately by any rational person.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:Duh! by ePhil_One · · Score: 1

      Actually, I suspect its even better than that. They are comparing the "Value" o Corporate IP vs the "Value" of Personal information. What metrics did they use, Black market prices (your personal info isn't worth much), potential monetization via advertising, how much thieves could earn from you stolen identity, or how much it would cost tooffer every ID stolen a credit watch service (astonomical costs)?

      Its simple, compliance forces you to categorize Personal info as needing the highest protection, just rate you corporate IP as the same category and the two budgets are practically one. Hell, they often are, as the client list is often the most important IP in a company. Maybe the secret formula to Coca-Cola is more valuable, but most companies don't really have that valuable IP, their value is in Brand, people, and inertia, which can't be stolen.
       

      --
      You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
  17. the summary is wrong by sweatyboatman · · Score: 1

    Enterprises devote 80% of their security budgets to two priorities: compliance and securing sensitive corporate information, with the same percentage (about 40%) devoted to each.

    So, the same amount of money is being spent between compliance and securing IP.

    The paper suggests that companies should put more emphasis on the securing IP (trade secrets, etc.) and less on compliance. (Even after taking into consideration the penalties and punishments of a compliance failure)

    It should also be pointed out that by compliance they mean all efforts to secure other people's information. So not just federal requirements, but also contractual obligations, and private lawsuits and PR problems that such security failures would entail.

    from the paper:

    We identified two kinds of information that have clear and tangible value.
    Proprietary company secrets generate revenue, increase profits, and maintain competitive advantage. In addition,
    custodial data such as customer, medical, and payment card information has value because regulation or contracts
    make it toxic when spilled and costly to clean up. We explain each below.

    --
    It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
  18. Common sense at last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In many cases, the process of being "compliant" consists of replacing one set of vulnerabilities with another. Or writing up a ton of documentation that explains a set of policies and procedures -- knowing full well that there are gaping holes in operational practices and easy circumvention methods for anyone who wants a unilateral exemption.

    I know of one organization that had a boatload of corporate governance, security and compliance audits, extensive corrective action reports for each "finding", etc. And yet, along comes an outsourced programmer who leaves a privileged database password embedded in a file that was exposed to the internet via the company's website. They were offline for a few days, assessing just how thoroughly their systems were compromised the hackers attacked.

    This particular organization had a huge number of IT "management" staff, but most of them were converted from finance and had weak IT skills. Their emphasis on compliance came at the expense of operational competence. E-mail, database, or file servers might take a day off every now and then for the crisis du jour, but by golly they had corporate governance!

  19. The report is plain wrong IMHO by hugetoon · · Score: 1

    In figure 1 of the report one can read that consequences of custodial data leak would be cleanup and notification costs.

    However here's an exerpt from a randomly picked PCI-DSS FAQ (http://pci.evolve-online.com/pci-faqs.asp)

    "
    What are the penalties for non-compliance?
    In the event of a security breach, penalties for non-compliance are imposed. We understand currently these to be in the order of:

            * Fines at the rate of 5 euros per compromised account
            * A breach fee in excess of 100,000 euros per incident
            * Possible restrictions on the merchant
            * Permanent prohibition of the merchant's participation in Visa and MasterCard programs
            * Beyond compliance, business risks relative to brand, customer loyalty and company valuation exist if the cardholder data is not securely managed
    "

    Disclamer: I do PCI-DSS audits

    1. Re:The report is plain wrong IMHO by sweatyboatman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the report doesn't actually say that companies should not spend money on compliance. the summary says that, sure, but this is slashdot.

      the paper says that the costs to companies of IP theft is far larger than for data leaks.

      since companies cannot spend less on compliance, clearly the point is to get them to spend more on IP security. Which might be why Microsoft and RSA commissioned the paper in the first place. Now they can go into corporate board rooms and say "Yes, you already spend $X millions on security, but this report shows why you should spend $2X millions more on our new and improved security!"

      --
      It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
    2. Re:The report is plain wrong IMHO by hugetoon · · Score: 1

      I was talking about the report, not the summary.

      I agree with Your analysis of the agenda.

      Yet the report is wrong in the sense that it understates (intentionally?) value of being compliant.

      Ironically the point of view of authors is a good illustration of Economics of Security http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_security.

      The word penalty isn't used even once in the document while compliance efforts are mainly driven by the need to avoid penalties because penalties are the main impact (otherwise there would be no need for regulations).

  20. One of two ways by david_thornley · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The point of these regs is that the corporation and its clients have diverging interests. It's in my interest that my medical records not be publicly distributed (well, it certainly could be), but releasing them wouldn't really matter to the companies that keep them. Since I don't have much of a choice of companies, and can't audit these companies, market forces are inadequate to protect my interests.

    Therefore, the government steps in. There are three ways the government could do this. One is to prescribe security measures. One is to allow me to sue for a whole lot of money in statutory damages if my privacy is breached. This gives the company some incentive, but it means that a large breach (despite what may be good security measures) kills the company. The last way is to have criminal penalties for data breaches, and that has the same result.

    The prescribed security measures are actually the safest way for a given business. They require some expense, but they're also a form of insurance.

    As far as the company's vital data goes, well, protecting their data is up to them. They have the resources, authority, and incentive. They have resources and authority to protect my data, and I have the incentive.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    1. Re:One of two ways by vlm · · Score: 1

      but releasing them wouldn't really matter to the companies that keep them

      Carrot or stick? Stick seems a miserable failure. Lets try carrot.

      Allow them to sell your records for a minimum high fixed cost. You know they trade them for free right now. High enough that the market is pretty thin indeed. Lets say $100K and you are required to get a cash kickback of $X per sale. If your info is publicized, their balance sheet is ruined since no one would buy from them and you can sue them for your kickback. They'll just discount the cost off their balance sheet onto some kind of NPV calculation, but at least its a start.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  21. When the process becomes the objective... by weston · · Score: 1

    When serving the process becomes the objective, you're... ... just following "Best Practices," right?

    It's really not that some things that end up in the conceptual bin labeled "Best Practices" are bad ideas. But there are two classes of people who are following/implementing them: those who understand the principles that gave rise to the rules, and those who don't. Becoming part of the former group generally takes a significant up-front investment. Becoming part of the later group doesn't. Meanwhile, the benefits of wielding recommended practices and rules/regulations are more or less the same for both groups; the extra benefits of really understanding the principles are marginal (except for the occasional entrepreneurs who might be genuinely trying to compete with established players on efficiency). Particularly if your relationship with the company you work for falls between careerist and sociopathic, you have no real incentives to understand principles behind any distilled rule. Wrote recommendation and compliance is enough.

    If you want regulation that works, rather than specifying some cargo-cult set of instructions for "compliance," you have to figure out what your real goal is, reward its genuine achievement, and make it really hurt (if at all possible) when there's a failure.

  22. Truth be told by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I work in Healthcare IT.

    HIPAA just freaks people out. It is in most respects far less stringent than state law, yet, the word strikes fear into the hearts of management. It's such a frustrating "buzzword" to hear from a sales rep that I have to focus not to discount anything they say after the words: "HIPAA compliant." It's like telling someone they won't get a virus if they have Norton installed. HIPAA basically says you have to take reasonable measures. A password protected account is a reasonable measure by their definition. Sure, it's better than nothing, but never as strong as many other good habits we have around security. Compliance w/ a static law does nothing to maintain security in the future, let alone today, and anyone in the IT field surely knows that true "security" is a balance between functionality, ongoing education, and administration such that business needs are met, privacy is expected, policies are strict enough to block most crap and leinient enough to allow work to get done. Unfortunately, I concur that far more emphasis is placed on "meeting" regulatory compliance, and not EXCEEDING compliance.

    I'm posting Anonymously because my location, name, and career, combine to form a unique ID that would easily identify me since I'm in a small town.

    1. Re:Truth be told by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      HIPAA basically says you have to take reasonable measures.

      That's less true since the HITECH Act was passed as part of the stimulus law last year, which required HHS to specify much more specific rules as to what consitutes "unsecured" PHI as well as specific rules for breach notification that are tied to breaches of unsecured PHI. The guidance promulgated under HITECH sets out fairly specific guidance as to what must be done for PHI not to be considered "unsecured" (mostly, by referencing existing federal standards and applying them to different scenarios.)

  23. How did they measure compliance? by prgrmr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The HIPAA regs have a lot of criteria for data protection, but practically nothing about how to implement or measure a given implementation for that criteria. I worked at a hospital where the CIO honestly thought that having a backup tapes and spreadsheet of prioritized servers to bring back up in the event of a disaster was a sufficient D.R. plan to cover what HIPAA required. So how did the study measure compliance?

    The ansewr is that they didn't. Nor did they measure effectiveness of compliance-based processes and procedures, nor did they take into account the benefit of being in compliance. There's a chart in the .PDF that contrasts "custodial data" with "secrets". One of the criteria is Consequences. For "Secrets", the consequence is revenue loss, which is not necessarily automatic; however, they don't list revenue loss for "custodial data", even though there will be some, even if short-term, drop-off in business due to the incident.

    The study is presented from the bias that the two commissioning companies wanted, namely to drum-up a motive via this presumably expertly manufactured need for greater security for security's sake. And you can bet that both Microsoft and RSA are going to be using this study to drive more product sales, and doing so from the perspective that better overall security equal better compliance--whether it actually does, or not.

    1. Re:How did they measure compliance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't the issue with PCI compliance. There are tons of technical requirements that have to be met. You can find many comments in this very thread of people complaining about the technical specificity of PCI compliance conflicting with their business infrastructure. PCI isn't nearly perfect and there's some areas that it's actually nonsensical, but at least it has some metrics to check against (derogatorily referred to as "checklist compliance." Speaking anonymously as someone who worked on PCI compliance for an important nonprofit, I can attest to the fact that there are large businesses that don't give a FUCK about your personal information safety, and PCI compliance has forced them to take not only SOME precautions against information theft but quite a few, in fact. Enough that it reaches the point that it's actually become easier to do things right from the beginning than retrofit a million dollar system designed by shitheads so you don't lose the ability to charge by credit card.

  24. Risk assessment by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    This isn't an either/or question. An organization should step back, do an inventory (*much* easier said than done), and weigh the consequences and likelihood of a range of Bad Things, in other words a risk assessment.

    A relatively unnoticed provision of PCI requires doing a risk assessment, and you'd better do a risk assessment for HIPAA as well.

    If you do a risk assessment right, then you'll be led to spending money in the places where it does the most good. If a regulation prompts you to do one, then it has served security in general.

  25. Accounting by Herkum01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Compliance is about appeasing the corporate bureaucrat with something which they can measure. Why do you think they hate IT, they don't know how to measure anything. Better to make up a measurement and pretend it means something rather than spend time and effort in something you have no interest and really don't understand.

  26. cost vs benefit by DaveGod · · Score: 1

    TFA argues that more money should be spent on security than compliance because security is worth more. This makes a big assumption that each $ spending is equally effective wherever it is spent: it may simply be more expensive to provide an acceptable level of assurance over compliance. Cost vs. benefit.

    Secondly, their concept of "valuable" seems to refer to their value as assets, but compliance is more about reducing the risk of potential liability. Compliance is required. Maybe it's with good reason, maybe it's red tape, either way doing it probably appears to add no value but the consequences of not doing it may be ultimate. If a plausable consequence of non-compliance is the total failure of the company, say through legal action or customers deserting, it is therefore not possible for anything to be more valuable to the company than compliance.

  27. e.g. Sarbanes–Oxley by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Considering our current financial oh-noes, what has Sarbanes–Oxley achieved other than create an industry out of compliance? Worse - spawning dreaded Regulatory Compliance droids busting balls at every opportunity. Thankfully they have proved themselves redundant.

    Of course we need some kind of rules, but more importantly, there needs to be a huge shake up of corporate governance.

    1. Re:e.g. Sarbanes–Oxley by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course we need some kind of rules, but more importantly, there needs to be a huge shake up of corporate governance.

      That was the entire point of sarbox: the chief officers are held responsible for the financial statements that they signed, and to end the era of executives who feigned stupidity when asked "do you have any idea what your company was doing?"

      Doing this required plugging all the loopholes that executives had used to deflect blame. "I never saw that memo" (funny, the audit log shows that you not only read it, you forwarded it to your lawyer). "That's odd, when I signed it, I know it said $x here, I would never have signed it had it said $y" (funny, access control says that you're the only person who can change that number. And the audit log shows that you changed it. After you sold your stock in the company).

      It should have been such a simple thing, but the problem is that it was left excessively open-ended in an attempt to head off any executives who try to get creative as a way around the controls. Because of that, it ended up with requiring people to stop and check everything they do to make sure that it wouldn't be interpreted as such an end run.

  28. News Flash: Life boats no help in desert! by cenobyte40k · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The idea behind those laws are not about protecting the company, it's about protecting the consumer and investor in that company. They are designed to give the same protection to the little investor, or individual customer the company doesn't care about as the big guy the company could have trouble with if they piss off. I know that these laws don't always work that way, but to say they don't help protect the company is like saying that life boats aren't worth anything because don't help people trapped in the desert. It the boat doesn't help people at sea then it's worthless and we should do something about it. I don't care if Murder being a crime doesn't help against rape, I still want it to be a crime.

  29. Well of course by ZouPrime · · Score: 2, Informative

    The reason why security programs are geared toward compliance is because that's what sells to stakeholders!

    A security manager in a typical organisation can rarely go see his boss to ask for massive investment in security without being laughed at. Security cost money, and without facing a real, quantifiable risk, his boss simply won't care. Obviously your mileage may vary depending of your boss cluelessness, your ability to efficiently sell fear, and your industry.

    Compliance, on the other hand, is scary. There are penalties directly associated with non-compliance, and you know someone will actually come here and check if your compliant or not. So the risk is very direct and very obvious. That's why it's a much easier sell.

    Of course, standards and regulations are designed to enforce security to begin with. Not saying that they are always succeeding, but at least they try to. So in the end, being compliant to a security standard does helps your organisation's security. The issues arise when one try to game the compliance, by falsely reporting which assets are critical for example. But if you're ready to lie (or bend the truth) around compliance, I don't see why you wouldn't do the exact same thing for security if you were let alone with your own risks.

  30. More "corporate personhood"? by ArtFart · · Score: 0

    This suggests (or admits) that companies practice a calculus regarding safeguarding of sensitive data whose release might cause harm to others. Particularly with respect to HIPAA, the impications are odious. It's saying that your organization actively weighs the trade-off in profitability between doing the absolute best that can be done to safeguard sensitive information about individuals, versus taking the hit in fines or monetary liability if there is a serious breach. That's like stating with a straight face that the well-being of your customers or employees really doesn't count for a tinker's damn.

  31. My point too! by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

    I was AC in a similar post and subsequently got modded down similarly.

    This particular organization had a huge number of IT "management" staff, but most of them were converted from finance and had weak IT skills. Their emphasis on compliance came at the expense of operational competence. E-mail, database, or file servers might take a day off every now and then for the crisis du jour, but by golly they had corporate governance!

    The key part for me is your first sentance here. Where I work, we have the same issue. IT people who don't "Love" computers, who are more process & workflow people than true tech geeks. Process and workflow is important, VERY important, and I'm not saying those people shouldn't be where they are, but you need to have a mix of skills. Those tech people can do MORE than just comply w/ the law, but help a corp. exceed the standards set by organizations and laws such as HIPPA.

    --
    How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
  32. I totally agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I didn't get the chance to read the article, was just posting my thoughts based on the summary. It seems you get what I'm saying though, and I guess in a way, I'm advocating what they are saying because of my experiences in HC IT. You are correct that custodial data has value. It has far reaching value to the people who generated the data, but more in that it's a huge liabillity. The cost of carrying a liabillity is $0.00 until something happens, and it allways does. The cost of carrying liabillity insurance.(aka regulatory compliance in this context) is a little more, but somewhat measurable. The cost of decent security is the cost of compliance + the cost of additional resources as determined necessary by risk assesment, which is not imediately measurable, but not exactly unobtainable.

  33. Thank you government.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Helping me spend money in places where it adds little or no value...SWEET!!!

  34. Jail is not the concern... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More importantly, don't follow PCI and say goodbye to accepting credit card payments.

  35. The rule is there for a reason by TiggertheMad · · Score: 1

    but since this holds the companies accountable for a minimum of data security at least they will do something whereas they would normally do nothing.

    Amen to that. And, to expound on the the though, a lot of federal regulations are there for a reason, usually because someone was doing the very thing is prohibited to the detriment of the public's best interest. Rules are often there because there are always a few self interested jerks.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
  36. Re:It's more than IT compliance (CHINA??????) by Required+Snark · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    China, known around the world for product standards.

    Heparin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_heparin_adulteration

    Since this "over-sulphated" variant is not naturally occurring and mimics the properties of heparin, the counterfeit is almost certainly intentional as opposed to an accidental lapse in manufacturing.[8] The heparin was cut from anywhere from 2-60% with a counterfeit substance due to cost effectiveness, and a shortage of suitable pigs in China.

    Drywall: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100402/ap_on_bi_ge/us_chinese_drywall

    The drywall has been linked to corrosion of wiring, air conditioning units, computers, doorknobs and jewelry, along with possible health effects. Tenenbaum said some samples of the Chinese-made product emit 100 times as much hydrogen sulfide as drywall made elsewhere.

    Pet Food: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_pet_food_recalls

    Sometime in mid-March, an "unnamed pet food company" reported to Cornell that they had discovered an industrial chemical utilized in plastics manufacture, melamine, in internal testing of wheat gluten samples. ..... The chemical was found in the suspected wheat gluten in raw concentrations as high as 6.6 percent.

    Cooking Oil: http://rawstory.com/2010/03/chinese-consumed-millions-gallons-toxic-sewage-oil-study/

    Chinese cooking oil siphoned from restaurants' waste tanks and stripped out of raw sewage is being resold on the cheap and has for years tainted approximately one out of every ten meals cooked in the eastern nation, according to a recent study.

    Tooth Paste http://publicsafety.tufts.edu/ehs/?pid=27

    In recent weeks, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has identified a number of instances of contaminated toothpastes that have been imported and sold in the United States. The toothpaste from China and counterfeit Colgate toothpaste may contain diethylene glycol (DEG), a chemical used in antifreeze.

    Two are current: cooking oil and drywall.

    Yes, the US will be a much better competitor if we just give up regulation, make a few people rich and poison everyone. Actually we already have, if you consider how unregulated Toxic Assets have ruined both the domestic and world economy....

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
  37. PCI-DSS certification is a joke by pongo000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have a merchant account for my performance shop. I'm required by my merchant account bank to submit to "certification" via PCI-DSS. Certification consists of logging into a site yearly and answering a series of questions, such as "Are customer receipts printed so that no more than the last 4 digits of the customer's CC number are printed, with no expiry dates or CVVs?" It's like the psych tests you take for a government job: You basically answer what you believe they want to hear.

    The cost for this "certification" process? $100 a pop. I have no choice...get "certified" or lose my account.

    1. Re:PCI-DSS certification is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you answered is the SAQ (Self Assessment Questionnaire) and it's designed so that you are culpable for your answers. If you lied, the post incident Audit by the PCI would show that you were in violation and that your PCI status was not accurate. Larger consumes of Authorization systems must submit to QSA's (Qualified Security Assessor's) hands on audits which include (but are not limited to) Pen Tests, Security Scans, Network Reviews and Application reviews.

      It's more than just "Compliance" for the sake of "Compliance" companies put their hands on your personal information (And Banking information in the terms of the Personal Account Number) and have to meet certain requirements to do so. But certainly some things are unnecessary, entire physical environments are often designed with very minimal configs just for these communications to transmit. This can cause the opposite environment behavior the PCI-DSS is trying to create (up to date, secure environments) since they're seperate from the rest of the infrastructure and very rarely touched.

      The problem is answering the "Compliance" question with a single minded answer often ends up with *less* secure, and certainly less capable, overall designs than a design created with security at the heart from the beginning and checking back to the Compliance question to make sure it's covered by the best practices you're already following.

    2. Re:PCI-DSS certification is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work for a data center that handles a lot of merchant accounts and can back up the parent here. We had a tanning salon that wanted to use our services to run credit cards. They were "PCI Compliant", however it came out that they stored all their customers (over ten thousand of em) reoccurring credit card payment data in an excel spreadsheet kept in a computer set on the front desk of every salon. Then they got all indignant when we wouldn't touch them with a mile long pole.
       
          They're still in business and I shudder every time I drive past one.

    3. Re:PCI-DSS certification is a joke by Ritchie70 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are a small merchant. You are making the mistake of believing that what you experience is what everyone experiences.

      Merchants are split into three groups, "A", "B", and "C" if I remember correctly.

      Class "C" merchants just have to do a questionnaire.

      Class "B" merchants have to do more, I'm not sure what exactly.

      Class "A" merchants have auditors in every year writing reports, and they always find something to ding you on.

      It's a nightmare.

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    4. Re:PCI-DSS certification is a joke by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      Yeah we hired a PCI dude for like 100k a year. All he did was run a program that said we were out of compliance. No matter what we did we were out of compliance.

    5. Re:PCI-DSS certification is a joke by evilviper · · Score: 1

      It's like the psych tests you take for a government job: You basically answer what you believe they want to hear.

      Unlike a psychological evaluation, if you like on your required PCI-DSS survey, you are in contractual violation, and will therefore be screwed by the respective credit card companies when someone breaks in and charges a few millions on those credit cards they pull from you...

      The cost for this "certification" process? $100 a pop. I have no choice...get "certified" or lose my account.

      You have a 3rd option. BRING YOUR SYSTEMS INTO COMPLIANCE.

      Honestly, with a few exceptions, it's not all that difficult. Only store/display the last 4 digits of the CC#. Keep your server in a locked cabinet/closet. Use a password that is more than 7 digits, and change it every 3 months. Or better yet, call your bank, and get them to send you a copy of their latest, PCI-DSS complaint software that handles all these restrictions itself. Not a big frickin' deal for a small company.

      And you're assuming your experience is at all typical. Get to be a larger company, and you begin to need to pay for outside companies to test your system security every 3 months, and have a CEO (with a lot to lose) sign on the dotted line that you are in compliance with PCI standards.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    6. Re:PCI-DSS certification is a joke by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1

      I agree. We've spent the better part of the past year getting our systems ready for PA-DSS certification (payment app) and our e-commerce operations PCI-Level I compliant. You want to know the best part about level 1 compliance is: no virtualization. I understand why "cloud" implementations are not allowed (you can't control the other account on the same hardware). But the way the hits on our website trend, I could get by with very little hardware about 9 hours a day. Our peak usage is only about 4 hours a day. However when we got to that level we were basically told to start looking at a mainframe (well mid-frame or whatever they call a db/400 system these days).

      Our payment application is actually opensource, and the way the rules are written, it's damn near impossible to get an opensource project certified if you don't have a company like our willing to front the $30k to go through the process.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    7. Re:PCI-DSS certification is a joke by bearsinthesea · · Score: 1

      I know level 1 merchants and service providers that are using virtualization. You may want to look into that further.

  38. Ain't wasted money by Mr.+Foogle · · Score: 1

    Compliance money ain't wasted if it keeps the government from socking the enterprise with stiff fines and the CEO in jail for non-compliance.

    --
    Display some adaptability.
  39. Idiots complain about regulation. by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

    This happens every time someone wants to continue "competing" by cutting corners.

    When no one forces standards, companies "compete" by neglecting some areas, so in their race to the bottom they eventually reach the point when no one can provide any kind of safety. The whole structure of pricing, available services, training, etc. makes it unaffordable to do anything that improves the neglected area, so everyone trembles in fear that either the whole thing will crash down, or someone will out-neglect him and force the company out of the market.

    Then government produces some regulation, and sends scary jackbooted thugs to enforce it. Rationally behaving companies would welcome those thugs no matter how scary and rude they are. They can't hurt you more than they hurt your competitors -- not unless you suck so much, you have to cut corners more than your competitors do just to maintain price parity with them. They WILL hurt your worst enemies -- competitors who drive cost down by increasing risks. Companies' management should be happy that now they and their competitors have to spend some minimal amount of money and effort on compliance, and compete on something productive.

    That is, if management recognizes that excessive risk is a problem.

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  40. Info Security to Protect the business WILL meet co by cjacobs001 · · Score: 1

    over a year ago, this post "Security by compliance is obviously not working. We need to stop thinking about information security and start thinking about information risk management. Compliance should be approached from a risk management, and not a purely technical, perspective. You need to do information security not to meet compliance but to protect the business. There is a huge difference between those two methodologies. We need to identify, govern and manage IT risk for security, and therein realize compliance." see it at http://www.linkedin.com/myprofile?trk=hb_tab_pro

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    cjacobs001
  41. Anyone worked with a compliance manager? by jimicus · · Score: 1

    I don't know if my experience is typical, but the last time I worked with a compliance manager was a thoroughly painful experience.

    The whole point of having a bunch of processes which organisations are supposed to comply with is that those processes prevent certain Bad Things from happening. In order for those processes to be effective, they either need to cover every conceivable scenario (no such process has ever been written), or they need to be followed with an understanding of what they're trying to achieve and to the spirit of the process rather than just the letter.

    This particular compliance manager (and I have no idea if it's typical of people in that role, but I suspect it is) didn't really seem to grasp that - or if she did, she didn't care. As long as the process was followed to the letter, she was happy. Any suggestion for doing anything which may have been what the process was trying to achieve but wasn't officially sanctified as part of it would be shot down (more effort, the company wasn't obliged to do it). Frankly, she could have been replaced with an automated system fairly easily were it not for the fact that her job had to exist for legal reasons.

  42. There are four objectives by FreeUser · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are two different objectives here, with (at least) two different processes. The first of these objectives is securing corporate assets. The second is securing sensitive individual information about people with whom the corporation does business. Security processes should ideally serve both objectives, but if that's impossible, then one process (or set of processes) has to be given prioroty over the other.

    You are quite right, as far as you go. In fact, there are at least four objectives being served here.

    (Disclaimer, I work at a large international investement bank)

    3. Kissing corporate executive ass
    4. Kissing government regulatory ass

    Most of compliance falls into the latter two categories, and is about perception and ticking of boxes in corporate compliance forms far more than protecting assets. In fact, more often than not, the compliance requirements result in technical and bureaucratic logjams that are so onerous that the employees of the company are forced to route around them in order to do their jobs, resulting in far less security than would be in place of the compliance requirements were more sensible (and common sense) and less attorney driven. In either event, neither corporate nor customer security is enhanced...merely the bottom line of government bureaucrats, third party vendors, an entire division of the company whose sole purpose is to prostrate themselves before the ass of said parties, and the most important bottom line of all: ticking off a few annual objectives of some of the higher-up executives so they can "show their impact" and pad their bonus.

    Day-to-day operating procedures are routinely decimated by this, but that only affects the bonuses and bottom line of the lower ranks and the day-to-day security of the firm...hardly a concern (after all, if something does happen, there's always someone (far) beneath said executives to fire).

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  43. Defence in Depth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Defence in Depth. An absolute requirement to have real defence. Trust relationships are a relationship where the failure of the other party is as if YOU failed.

    So, definitely YES, multiple layers of firewall are worthy.

  44. Compliance does NOT equal Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Compliance does NOT equal Security

  45. data is valuable to who? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The analysis reported on in the article says that business data (trade secrets, etc.) is more valuable than the contents of the database, and this may be true from the business's perspective. However, the laws exist to protect *my* interest in the data that someone keeps about me. It is just because that data is important to me, but not the company, that laws like HIPAA exist.