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Grounded Russian Nuclear Sub Photographed With Sonar

Lanxon sends in an intriguing piece from Wired: "This eerie wreck image is not computer-generated. It's the sonar image of Russian nuclear submarine B-159 (called K-159 before decommissioning), which has been lying 248m down in the Barents Sea, between Norway and Russia, since 2003. The Russian Federation hired Adus, a Scottish company that specializes in high-resolution sonar surveying, to evaluate if it would be possible to recover the wreck. 'The operation was complicated as the submarine was very deep, so we had to use the sonar equipment mounted on a remotely operated vehicle' [also pictured in the article], says Martin Dean, the managing director of Adus and a forensic-wreck archaeologist. 'We also had a problem with the surveying due to the density of North Atlantic cod attracted to the sound of the sonar and the light of the cameras.'"

143 comments

  1. Oblig. sonar joke... by LostCluster · · Score: 0

    Looking at the image, it looks like your baby is a boy and you have quite the flat stomach...

    1. Re:Oblig. sonar joke... by Cryacin · · Score: 1, Funny

      Um, sir... I don't quite know how to explain this, but we just passed this Geiger counter over your baby, and well, it went nuts! Did your wife perchance eat weapons grade plutonium during her pregnancy?!?

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    2. Re:Oblig. sonar joke... by deniable · · Score: 0

      Even worse, there's a good chance of breaking containment.

    3. Re:Oblig. sonar joke... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why did they go through so much pain. They could have simply asked China, and could have easily collected all information about the submarine, its design, whereabouts, pictures!!!!

    4. Re:Oblig. sonar joke... by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      I didn't know the sea bottom was made of corduroy. And Russians found it a good idea to make subs out of it, too. Wouldn't steel be a better idea?

    5. Re:Oblig. sonar joke... by gooman · · Score: 1

      It kind of looks a little like Velcro, in which case they're never going to get that boat off the bottom.

      --
      "Kittens give Morbo gas!"
  2. Pardon my pedanticism... by Spykk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This eerie wreck image is not computer generated.

    You don't have to use 3d studio max to generate an image with a computer. I would suggest that this image is in fact generated by a computer. It's just generated from sonar data instead of an artists interpretation.

    1. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by martas · · Score: 1

      what about a webcam photo? is that computer generated? or any image file you view on your monitor, for that matter?

    2. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Droideka-TheGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd say most webcam photos are generated from boredom actually. Or stupidity, if one looks too long on facebook.

    3. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by lennier1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I doubt sunk submarines are that active on Chatroulette.

    4. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by SheeEttin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's your only problem? What about using the term "photograph" with sonar? Shouldn't it be a sonograph?
      (Also, the term "computer-generated" doesn't apply to the image itself, but the content. By your definition, even your digital camera takes computer-generated pictures. ;) )

    5. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by forkazoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You don't have to use 3d studio max to generate an image with a computer. I would suggest that this image is in fact generated by a computer. It's just generated from sonar data instead of an artists interpretation.

      Yeah, that's kind of a canonical example of a computer generated image. They had a bunch of sonar data which was put through an algorithm which resulted in a picture. People don't really seem to care what words mean anymore. It's a shame. Or, maybe it's a pancake. Doesn't make any difference to most people.

    6. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by gig · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah, not using "sonographed" is the bigger mistake.

    7. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Mathinker · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I always have used "pedantry" (and have plenty of opportunity, when talking about myself).

      Zipf's Law in action, I guess.

    8. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      CG has been taken over by the artsy fartsies. We're left with scientific visualization.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    9. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Le+Marteau · · Score: 1

      > It's just generated from sonar data instead of an artists interpretation.

      I'm guessing an artist was involved.

      Why is there no noise? How would the software know what parts should be yellow, and what parts should be black?

      I guess it's too much to ask of a mainstream magazine to just give us the image, without tweaking it by hand to make it all purty.

      --
      Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
    10. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by noidentity · · Score: 1

      To add to your pedanticism, it's also not a photograph, as sonar involves sound, not photons.

    11. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt sunk submarines are that active on Chatroulette.

      Drunk submariners on the other hand...

    12. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Jurily · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's a shame. Or, maybe it's a pancake. Doesn't make any difference to most people.

      I'm very apancaked that Slashdot has editors who can't read.

    13. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would suggest that this image is in fact generated by a computer.

      Yep. Every time I ask computer to picture my girlfriend, I get picture resembling something like that:)

    14. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...but did they use high quality audio cable?

    15. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      To be fair, the error is in the original article, which the submitter just ripped off verbatim, and kdawson posted without even cursory checking (apologies for the obviousness of that).

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    16. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by mforbes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I disagree. The image is computer interpreted. To imply that it's computer generated is to imply that there is no physical analog of the object the image represents.

      --

      Allegedly real newspaper headline from 1998:
      Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge

    17. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      Alas the product wave summarized the continuity of the repercussion and thus systematically diffused the colloquialism.

      The girth of the azimuth has perpetuated limitless capacity to burden the overcoming. Ceramic boulder caved into the singularity, which in itself lambasted in lie of the experimental sentiment profusely.

      Capricorn?

    18. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by bugnuts · · Score: 1

      Yes, that is completely different than me using my Canon camera with dual Digic 4 processors and CMOS sensor. The last Non-computer generated image I made was of my dog, which bore a tremendous likeness, generated from the CMOS imager and fed through a series of algorithms, compressed, and stored on a solid state device, but because it looked like a dog it couldn't be a computer generated image.

      But because mine was shot on something that resembles a camera that measures light hitting a sensor instead of sound, somehow it's an accurate capture of reality instead of those nasty fake computer-generated images.

    19. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mike L...?

    20. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by ultranova · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why is there no noise?

      Noise changes from moment to moment, so take several images and average them (or simply remove outliers).

      How would the software know what parts should be yellow, and what parts should be black?

      Iron is hard, while the mud at the ocean floor is soft. It produces a different kind of echo, which can be visualized by colorization.

      This is all guesswork, but that's what I'd do if I had to do a project like this.

      I guess it's too much to ask of a mainstream magazine to just give us the image, without tweaking it by hand to make it all purty.

      What image? Sonar doesn't produce an image, it produces round-trip timing and waveform shift data. That data can be turned into an image by processing with a computer or by hand, however since this image is entirely artificial to begin with it's quite arbitrary to say "process this much and no more".

      So no, they can't give you the original image, because it doesn't exist and never has. I suppose they could give you the raw sonar data, but what would you do with it, apart from turning it into an image every bit as artificial as the one in the article?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    21. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Informative

      I disagree. The image is computer interpreted. To imply that it's computer generated is to imply that there is no physical analog of the object the image represents.

      If you look at a CG Artist's portfolio you'll see computer generated images of stuff he had on his desk (cell phones, etc). In fact, the best looking CG uses photographs of the object and it's environment for realistic textures and lighting.

      Careful about "imply". "Imply" will lead you astray.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    22. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what about a webcam photo?

      easy! any digital camera is a computer so it's computer generated.

      or any image file you view on your monitor, for that matter?

      pfff! if you're going to get that deep there are no computer generated images at all, only human generated images (HGI)...off to see a wizard about a raytracer

    23. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I disagree. The image is computer interpreted. To imply that it's computer generated is to imply that there is no physical analog of the object the image represents.

      I disagree some more. I would argue that a computer generated image is one made by a computer from non-visual data. This fits that description perfectly. CG involves images invented from geometry and textures. Sonar images obviously processed by computer, as these are, are generated from sonar data. Either way there's no image that the image is based upon.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    24. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worry about my children. Pedantry Bear might escape from /b/

    25. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would have to agree that technically the image is not computer-generated but rather built from a computational analysis. A digital camera does computer processing on photons hitting a light sensor but the image that it makes is not computer generated because the input is not generated by a computer. Similarly, the sonar data is not computer generated, therefore the image is not. It is however accurate to point out that it is not a photograph but rather a sonograph since the input was not light, but rather sound.

    26. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fact, the best looking CG uses photographs of the object and it's environment for realistic textures and lighting.

      Careful about "imply". "Imply" will lead you astray.

      Careful about "it's". "It's" will lead you astray.

    27. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Deadplant · · Score: 1

      While we're on pedantry... 'photograhed using sonar' is nonsensical. Photographs use photons, sonograms use sonar.

      The submarine was imaged using sonar.

    28. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every time you type "its" or "it's" just read it to yourself as "it is". If it makes no sense for it to be "it is" then drop the apostrophe. Possessive "its" is no different than possessive "his" or "hers" and does not need an apostrophe.

    29. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Bermuda.

    30. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Well, for a webcam photo the computer just throws the pixels on the screen. For a JPEG the process is a little more involved, but it's still image data and gets tossed onscreen.

      This sonar image started as a bunch of very complicated times. Yes, time. The time it takes a sound wave to travel to and return from the sub. Then the computer converts those times into distances. But you're not done - sonic imaging (either sonar or ultrasound) is somewhat complicated to reconstruct, so the computer has to do a bunch of work there as well. Finally you get an image, which is then displayed on screen.

      So, do you think there's a difference?

    31. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by argent · · Score: 1

      You (and the article author) are using a definition of "computer generated" that is startling in its obtuseness.

      The image is computer generated. Just like those nifty maps of the ocean bottoms that every world map made in the past quarter century seems to have used.

    32. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      doubt it. light doesn't go very far underwater. underwater cameras are heavy as well.
      the sensor suite took priority over cameras.
      that and they did say they were getting spammed with fish.
      all that picture would have had is blackness, fish, and a silhouette of the sub

    33. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by martas · · Score: 1

      nope, i don't. in both cases you're mapping from complex [to varying degrees] digital data to a bunch of pixel values. conceptually, there is no difference. of course, you can draw an arbitrary line on some difficulty scale, and say that beyond that line every image is computer "generated", which is what happens often. to me, being computer generated means that the data from which the image was constructed was created by a human on a computer, e.g. using Maya or Photoshop.

    34. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      It's not so much difficulty. With a camera you're reconstructing captured and stored visual information. You're storing a representation of photons then using a display device to recreate similar photons and send them on.

      With a sonar "image" you're converting non-visual information into a visual form. You're not representing photons with photons, you're representing something else with photons.

      Most people wouldn't have any difficulty saying that an image showing pressure variation in a wind tunnel was computer generated. This is the same thing.

    35. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by martas · · Score: 1

      hm, good point... that seems like a good way to define it.

    36. Re:Pardon my pedanticism... by arisvega · · Score: 1

      Photongraph, not 'photograph'

      --
      The three laws of thermodynamics:(1) You can't win. (2) You can't break even. (3) You can't even quit.
  3. Photograph... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could such an image also be called an acoustigraph?

    1. Re:Photograph... by Garble+Snarky · · Score: 2, Informative

      sonograph

    2. Re:Photograph... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sonogram is the usual term.

  4. Must have been built well by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

    Looks like they could just patch a few holes and pump air in to refloat it.

    (and yeah that might just be how it looks).

    1. Re:Must have been built well by Droideka-TheGuy · · Score: 1

      Or they could just call the Mythbusters and get their ping pong ball collection.

    2. Re:Must have been built well by Mitchell314 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Are you crazy? That sub is nothing more than a bunch of lines now.

      --
      I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
    3. Re:Must have been built well by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Yeah also I thought about using little ROVs to pull airbags into the interior, then inflating them once secured.

    4. Re:Must have been built well by Plazmid · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't think so, looks like there's a large gash in the ballast tanks. Besides it'd make more sense to fill it with gasoline(or attach large bags of it as is done in salvage operations), which is incompressible and doesn't expand like air as your Russian submarine, soon to be converted into floating nuclear powered datacenter, gets closer to the surface. Though, this submarine wasn't really in prime condition before it sunk(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-159)....

    5. Re:Must have been built well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Probably the pressure hull kept everything ok, but according to the story, the sub went down stern first, implanted itself 8m (about 24 feet) into the seabed, then broke at the seabed, and the rest came crashing down (as you see it). You can try to pull up the part thats up (248m of water is only about 806 feet). 3 250 ton cranes could slowly winch it up (provided none of the stuff stuck in the seabed is still attached). Lifting balloons could also be attached. And while you are at it, the Kirsk is within 100km of this wreck as is S80. I understand that these are grave sites and wouldn't mind treating them that way, but its that pesky nuclear poison that will slowly kill everything within 1000 km that causes problems.

    6. Re:Must have been built well by reverseengineer · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Wikipedia page for the K-159 submarine includes a picture of how it looked right before its sinking. (The sub in the picture faces the opposite direction as on the sonar image, so it is difficult to get an idea of the damage sustained in the sinking.) While on its final voyage, it was kept afloat with pontoons, which evidently are no longer with the sub. According to this article from 2007, one of the sources for the wiki article, the sub was crumbling at the end of its operational lifetime, and it may have had the hatches open at the time of sinking. So it will be a challenge to raise it. Notably, that Times article discusses a recovery "next summer" from the vantage point of Jan. 2007; it obviously has yet to occur.

      --
      "FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
    7. Re:Must have been built well by OrangeCatholic · · Score: 2, Informative

      >and yeah that might just be how it looks

      Correct. Try R'ing T one-page FA. The back 8m is snapped off. That's the part they didn't show.

    8. Re:Must have been built well by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Are you crazy? That sub is nothing more than a bunch of lines now.

      Squiggly ones at that.

    9. Re:Must have been built well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I heard lots of Soviet nuclear subs had defect in power plants and abandoned in shallow water around Russia, lots of them, like this one. I wonder what kind of person wants to salvage them into drydock, saw tails off(only way to have access to some of plant's vital parts in subs, including US') and work with it, for re-use, if not for environmental consideration.

    10. Re:Must have been built well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      but its that pesky nuclear poison that will slowly kill everything within 1000 km that causes problems.

      Hardly. Neutrons don't travel very far through water.

    11. Re:Must have been built well by Vectormatic · · Score: 5, Informative

      this one wasnt dumped because of a power plant failure.

      The k-159 did experience a primary coolant leak sometime in its operational life, but apperently it wasnt that bad of an incident, since it continued to opperate two more years before its power plant was overhauled. The incident happened in 1965, and the sub was decommisioned in 1989. After that it spent 14 years rusting away at a dock, after which it was to be towed to polyarny for scrapping. Since the 14 years of zero maintenance left it in a barely floating state, the russians welded some floating pontoons to the side, which where also only barely floating.

      During the voyage, one pontoon broke off during a storm, and the thing sank.

      I'm not saying the reactor in that thing is in perfect state, but i do think that at the time of decommision (1989), the power plant would have been fine (for soviet values of fine). The boat sank because of leaks in the hull, not a reactor failure

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    12. Re:Must have been built well by Vectormatic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      wow, didnt know about s80, thanks for the pointer

      i dont really see a reason for lifting the s80 though, it might have caried two nuclear warheards (it was able to cary two ssn-3 cruise missiles, some variants of which had a nuclear tip), but since s80 already has been raised once (for the investigation of the sinking), i would think the soviets would have removed the missiles at that time. So nothing really dangerous (perhaps a few tonnes of diesel fuel) remains in the s80, best let it be.

      K-159 is a different story though, but wikipedia reports that the kursk has been raised and dismantled already.

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    13. Re:Must have been built well by iamhassi · · Score: 1

      Ping pong balls

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    14. Re:Must have been built well by Island+Admin · · Score: 1

      I think a reactor failure would of done more than just sink the sub ....

    15. Re:Must have been built well by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      Although I'm pretty far from the Navy or marine technology in general, I find this topic quite fascinating. If you're interest in how such salvage operations are approached, I highly recommend reading this Wired article from last year, called Cowboys of the deep, which details the operations of Titan Salvage, as they recover a cargo ship full of new Mazdas. It's much more detailed than any news article, and generally an excellent read.

    16. Re:Must have been built well by Plunky · · Score: 1

      but its that pesky nuclear poison that will slowly kill everything within 1000 km that causes problems.

      Normally, I'd agree with you - but even TFS mentioned the cod that was so numerous it caused problems obtaining the readings.. in fact, if we just treated the site like a poisonous area like around Chernobyl, it might be a useful fisheries buffer zone..

    17. Re:Must have been built well by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Or just lift it with winches attached to a sufficiently large ship. According to Wikipedia, it weights less than 5,000 tons, and is less than 250m below the surface. Given that a large cargo ship can easily displace 100,000+ tons, I'd say they're more than up to the task.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    18. Re:Must have been built well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      US subs have valves between the compartments that can be used to pressurise the compartments with air and force the water out. Even if there were no such valves or they were damaged, a similar system could be attached to existing bulkhead pipes or directly to the hull. I don't know the conditions at the time this sub went down but procedures in an emergency direct you to shut all major hull penetrations and penetrations to adjacent compartments. Maybe they did that, maybe not. The engine room on these subs is typically one of the largest compartments and the most impact during a flooding because you lose propulsion AND provide a tail down angle that is very hard to recover from unless you had a lot of forward momentum. The missle compartment on subs is larger but in the middle of the sub making recovery slightly easier.

      I was stationed on a sub for about 7 years. I feared fires more than flooding although both can be catastrophic.

    19. Re:Must have been built well by kiehlster · · Score: 1

      Thus further confirming that string theory is true. Who would have thought that high pressure environments would turn things back into their basic elements.

    20. Re:Must have been built well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      7 out of 26 service years (26%) in drydock for repairs looks too much for a such subs. And "14 years rusting away at a dock" sounds natural with defective plant theory. Of course, theory is a theory...

    21. Re:Must have been built well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Glomar Explorer anyone?

  5. Fishies! by JesterJosh · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "We also had a problem with the surveying due to the density of north Atlantic cod attracted to the sound of the sonar and the light of the cameras. So at the beginning we had to turn off the equipment for 40 minutes and wait for the fish to go."

    Thought the sonar wasn't good for the marine life in that they would avoid it. Is this a peculiarity of cod?

    1. Re:Fishies! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is bad for marine mammals that communicate with sound. For fish though it could be interpreted variously depending on species. The cod probably though it was a hell of a lot of food.

    2. Re:Fishies! by lazy_playboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't understand your logic. Hot lightbulbs are bad for moths but they're still attracted to them.

    3. Re:Fishies! by mjwx · · Score: 2, Funny

      Thought the sonar wasn't good for the marine life in that they would avoid it. Is this a peculiarity of cod?

      Not really, the lazy sods are just using this as the excuse for getting the lines out and drinking for an hour on Russian government money.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    4. Re:Fishies! by tokul · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thought the sonar wasn't good for the marine life in that they would avoid it. Is this a peculiarity of cod?

      Cod are not mammals. They are stupid, don't care about sound (no echolocation gift from mother nature) and are attracted to light and disturbed ocean floor.

    5. Re:Fishies! by iamhassi · · Score: 0, Redundant

      In soviet Russia, governent money drink on you!

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    6. Re:Fishies! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The good news of the TFS is that the North Atlantic cod may be coming back!

    7. Re:Fishies! by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      Sonar isn't bad for anything, numerous types of sea life actually use it themselves.

      Sonar at sufficiently high power levels is supposed to be bad for marine life (in particular, I think it is generally stated that it is bad for mammals). If the cod were attracted to the sonar, I think it would indicate that the sonar was not powerful enough to actually cause damage to the cod (if in fact cod can be damaged by sonar).

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    8. Re:Fishies! by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      Sonar at sufficiently high power levels is supposed to be bad for marine life (in particular, I think it is generally stated that it is bad for mammals). If the cod were attracted to the sonar, I think it would indicate that the sonar was not powerful enough to actually cause damage to the cod (if in fact cod can be damaged by sonar).

      I think the cod would be fine unless they're very close to a powerful long-range sonar. I was a sonar operator on a frigate in the navy. When we went active the sonar would transmit at 210 dB, this is enough to cause injury or death in diving humans at close range, while at 150+ meters it would "just" be extremely uncomfortable.

      We were told that fish generally would not be affected unless they were at very close range and was injured by the shock wave. We avoided using the sonar when seals or whales were observed in the vicinity, as it might damage their biosonar organs or confuse them. Fine-grained sonar imaging, like the one used to map this submarine, use very high frequencies to get good resolution. These pulses dissipate quickly with distance. I'd guess that it is also much weaker than our long range unit, probably the only reason they didn't use it when cod were nearby is that it interfered with their imaging results.

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
    9. Re:Fishies! by treeves · · Score: 1

      The bad news is, after spending time near this sub, they'll be coming back with two tails and three eyes.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    10. Re:Fishies! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More to the tables then! ;;)

  6. Published April First by ildon · · Score: 2

    April first is a really unfortunate date to publish any article on the internet that isn't a joke. The whole day has basically been ruined by people taking April Fools too far.

    1. Re:Published April First by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      Next year, no April first.

      --

      Was Edward the Black Prince the result of drunken tattoos.

  7. The image *is* computer generated by EnglishTim · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The image is obviously computer generated; it's just computer generated from a real dataset. (Although the dataset has been coloured to separate the sub from the sea floor and a model of the sub fitted to the data so that when rendered the sub will obscure the sea floor behind the sub)

    1. Re:The image *is* computer generated by Droideka-TheGuy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Definitely photo-shopped.

    2. Re:The image *is* computer generated by md65536 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's also obvious that the image was rendered with a point of view different from the sonar sensor. "image is not computer generated" makes no sense at all.

    3. Re:The image *is* computer generated by treeves · · Score: 4, Funny

      Sono-shopped, you mean.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    4. Re:The image *is* computer generated by Permutation+Citizen · · Score: 1

      Of course, but you can also say that a picture taken from a digital camera is computer generated.

    5. Re:The image *is* computer generated by EnglishTim · · Score: 1

      But the equivalent with sonar would have been to map a pixel to each sonar reading and colour it according to height.

      What they've done here it to interpret the data in 3d and render it from an entirely different viewpoint. They've also added to the data by separating the colour of the floor and the sub and by adding an occluding object.

  8. Glomar Explorer by theycallmeB · · Score: 4, Informative

    Too bad the Glomar Explorer has been refitted for deep sea oil drilling. The biggest problem she would have had with a wreck 248 meters down is that it might be too shallow, as the wreck Glomar Explorer was designed to go after was 4.9km down. The Russians would probably object to its use, though, given the ship's history.

    1. Re:Glomar Explorer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Russians would probably object to its use, though, given the ship's history.

      The political baggage of it's history would be the least of my worries, its the K-129 breaking in half during salvage and two nuclear tipped missiles sliding out of their silos and falling 2000m+ to the ocean floor that would worry me more if somebody decided to use the Glomar Explorer for another nuclear salvage job. The Glomar Explorer's record on it's single (barely) successful salvage isn't exactly confidence inspiring.

    2. Re:Glomar Explorer by LWATCDR · · Score: 0

      True what bothers me is that they are lieing and saying that 248 meters is deep.
      For a scuba diver yes but is less than the test death of most nuclear attack subs and a lot shallower than most what most ROVs and research subs can reach.
      It really is in pretty shallow water which scares me.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    3. Re:Glomar Explorer by BCW2 · · Score: 1

      Actually it would work well for this if the operators don't jam the claw into the sea bottom and break it again.

      --
      Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
  9. Photographed with Sonar? by Ihlosi · · Score: 3, Informative
    How do you do that? Snap a picture of what your sonar screen is showing?

    If you create an image of something using sound waves, the correct term would be "sonographed". "Photographed" implies that you used light to create the image.

  10. deep ? by giampy · · Score: 4, Informative

    I really don't get how 248 m is considered "very deep". For a reference the Titanic lies at 4000m depth, and there are points in the pacific ocean where the depth is around 13000 m ...

    Maybe there is a reason why it says so, i just don't see it ...

    --
    We learn from history that we learn nothing from history - Tom Veneziano
    1. Re:deep ? by mjwx · · Score: 2, Informative

      I really don't get how 248 m is considered "very deep". For a reference the Titanic lies at 4000m depth, and there are points in the pacific ocean where the depth is around 13000 m ...

      That's what I though, WWII German submarines could go to 250 metres. I'm certain that commercially available submarines could easily reach that depth. I think the problem is not depth but area. Scanning the sea floor for anomalies at 250 M for 50 sq KM would be time consuming under ideal conditions.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    2. Re:deep ? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's very deep in terms of sonar technology, I guess. The article talks about having to use ROV-mounted sonar equipment, so they apparently could not get good resolution reflections with a towed sonar from the ship. I suppose the thermal or haline layering of seawater creates too much diffraction at this depth to get a high-resolution sonograph from the surface.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    3. Re:deep ? by iamhassi · · Score: 1

      Maybe soviets have a different definition of "deep"? "ah, I cant touch it with my toes, it's down there DEEP!"

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    4. Re:deep ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose 'Deep?' is a tickbox on the price list.

    5. Re:deep ? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Unlikelly, considering their subs typically can dive considerably deeper than those from rest of the bunch.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    6. Re:deep ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      In general the higher the desired resolution of a sonar image the closer you need to get to the target. Think of trying to take a photo of something in a smoke filled room - if you want a nice clear picture you need to get close.

      And as sonar images go that one is stunningly high resolution.

    7. Re:deep ? by cdrudge · · Score: 1

      Is 50 sq km a larger area at 250m then it is at say 50-100m?

    8. Re:deep ? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      It's pretty deep if you want to make a high res sonar image of it from the surface.

      This company is probably more used to doing high res sonar images of harbours and cable landing areas.

    9. Re:deep ? by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Is 50 sq km a larger area at 250m then it is at say 50-100m?

      I do not get the point of this question. The problem comes in the time it takes a sonar signal to reach the bottom of the ocean, so you have some serious lag or end up using special apparatus like this team did. This causes the work to proceed more slowly (not to mention create more of it to do in the first place). When taking sonar images of the sea floor you can only go so fast, when dragging a submersible drone to do the same thing you normally go slower.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  11. JUST FUCKING GOOGLE IT GOD DAMMIT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Thought the sonar wasn't good for the marine life in that they would avoid it. Is this a peculiarity of cod?

    Thought one could use Google to look up known, easily answered questions. Is this a peculiarity of you?

    1. Re:JUST FUCKING GOOGLE IT GOD DAMMIT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Cause clearly Google's entire existence mandates that components of a conversation that are query-like in nature all be discarded. Have you ever engaged in a normal conversation with another human? I think probably not. Normal conversations are rife with stated questions, some of which don't really need an answer.

      Stop acting like such a nerd.

    2. Re:JUST FUCKING GOOGLE IT GOD DAMMIT! by drsmack1 · · Score: 1

      >> Stop acting like such a nerd.

      Who says he was *acting*?

  12. It resembles... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It looks like that one sock that always goes missing out of the washing machine, and it's lying on a lonely yellow jumper.

  13. You've all got it wrong. by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

    That image is of a knitted wool and felt prop from The Clangers.

  14. People never cared, really by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Informative

    Unfortunately there is no "anymore" there. People never cared much for using words exactly how their grandfather did. Otherwise you'd still be speaking like in Beowulf. What is nowadays the right way to read and write in modern English would have been the _awfully_ wrong way a mere couple of hundred years ago. (E.g., "knight" used to be read exactly like it's written, with a hard K, an I like in "dim", and the G and H actually pronounced. Look at the mangled way you're reading it nowadays. Tut tut.)

    Any modern language in fact consists of the typos, mis-pronunciations and funky kewl-kid ways of using words, from the ages past.

    Meanings change too. "Seelie" once meant holy or blessed, now it evolved into "silly". "Thing" once meant a session of a ruling assembly (think: your city council in session), and by extension the assembly itself. Then it evolved to mean by extension the agenda of that meeting, then a topic on that agenda, then the object that will be the topic of that discussion, then eventually just the modern meaning of "thing."

    There's your "shame" vs "pancake" right there.

    So, you know, essentially complaining about kids using words wrong compared to _your_ seelie standard, is essentially hypocritical. Unless you're also going to go, "man, look at how we mangled the beautiful language of Shakespeare. Whar is this junk I'm speaking?" ;)

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:People never cared, really by bkr1_2k · · Score: 1

      What is nowadays the right way to read and write in modern English would have been the _awfully_ wrong way a mere couple of hundred years ago. (E.g., "knight" used to be read exactly like it's written, with a hard K, an I like in "dim", and the G and H actually pronounced. Look at the mangled way you're reading it nowadays. Tut tut.)

      I'd like to know just how people come up with the assertion that the pronunciation of words (such as Knight) have drastically changed when there aren't recordings of such words to be heard. Do you have any sort of reference for that? It'd be interesting to see the other assertions made and the assumptions those are based upon.

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    2. Re:People never cared, really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called linguistics. It's a serious science that takes its evidence from lots of different sources to generate a quite accurate picture. If you are really interested in that, you might enroll in history/linguistic courses at your local college/university.

    3. Re:People never cared, really by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      I'd like to know just how people come up with the assertion that the pronunciation of words (such as Knight) have drastically changed when there aren't recordings of such words to be heard.

      The K continues to be pronounced in other Germanic languages. Compare German Knabe to English knave. The logical conclusion is that English innovated in pronunciation (and stagnated in spelling) while other languages in this instance retained older features.

      The reconstruction of older stages of a language is not perfect -- in his compendium of Latin pronunciation Vox Latina , W. Sidney Allen notes that we may never know the minute details that distinguished the accent of one Roman city from adjacent regions. However, in the main, determining the general phonology of earlier stages of a language is considered reliable. The science of historical linguistics is over 200 years old now and it retains the same fundamentals though some theories come and go.

    4. Re:People never cared, really by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 1

      The rules for pronunciation can be documented. Also, considering modern German isn't too far off from old and middle English, you don't have to look too far. People don't throw in silent letters for the fun of it, they used to be pronounced.

      I'm curious about the future pronunciation of the word "ask." Futurama jokingly pronounces it as "ax," as an homage to certain urban uses today. Before you get all tussled up about it, consider how modern speakers today pronounce the word "only."

    5. Re:People never cared, really by BranMan · · Score: 1

      (E.g., "knight" used to be read exactly like it's written, with a hard K, an I like in "dim", and the G and H actually pronounced. Look at the mangled way you're reading it nowadays. Tut tut.)

      So, what you are saying is that the French soldiers in Monty Python's The Holy Grail were ..... pronouncing it correctly? That's not funny at all anymore! Thanks for ruining my enjoyment of a timeless classic for all time. I hope you're happy!

    6. Re:People never cared, really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I present as reference "Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail". Just listen to how the French soldier pronounces it.

    7. Re:People never cared, really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The entirety of the academic discipline historical linguistics.

    8. Re:People never cared, really by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's a difference between making up new words and pronouncing old ones in a different way, and making up new words because your vocabulary sucks (anybody who says "defensed", I'm looking at you). One is evolution, the other is ignorance. Yes, both will always occur, but that doesn't mean we have to embrace both.

      There's value in having a consistent way of referring to things: people will actually be able to understand each other. This discussion is a nice example of how diverging meanings can hurt understanding.

      As for your example of the proper pronunciation of knight, do you mean to imply that we all should speak German? ;)

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    9. Re:People never cared, really by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      What I'm saying is more that a lot of that evolution happened because of ignorance. Certainly using the word for "legislative assembly in session" to mean an "object" wasn't the proper use of the word, and using the word for "blessed" to mean "silly" even less so.

      And if you look at the evolution of languages, at least for English, French _and_ German, we have:

      - wrong use of declension and conjugation (at least for those that evolved from Latin, the successive distortions in that aspect would give a Cicero or Tacitus a heart attack)

      - wrong use of pronouns (let's just say, when you hear someone going, "what about them apples?", that's exactly the kind of wrong use that got you a "the" in the first place. Both old German and Latin had no such thing, and it was that exact misuse of pronouns that got us that.)

      - contractions and outright moving letters to the wrong word (e.g., "an adder" was once properly "a nadder")

      Etc.

      And it sure must have hurt understanding at some point or another.

      Basically: Let's face it, we all had a bunch of ancestors whose vocabulary sucked ;)

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  15. Argh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Neutrons don't, but the salts of the fissible material (and of fission by-products) might travel.

    How this could have been modded informative, I don't know.

  16. the peculiarities of herring are worse by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    they talk out of their asses. literally

    here is a .wav of a herring fart talking, and a story about it:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4343-fish-farting-may-not-just-be-hot-air.html

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  17. i made a joke cmnt, but now that i think about it: by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4343-fish-farting-may-not-just-be-hot-air.html

    this link perhaps explains the cod's behavior: herring use sound (farting) to "talk" to each other (coordinate schooling after dark). so that would perhaps explain the attraction to the sonar. i don't know how related cod are to herring, but even if not related, there is perhaps convergent evolution going on here (schooling fish in the north atlantic coordinating with sound)

    apparently some fish literally talk out of their asses

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  18. mmmmmm, cod by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All I need now is a couple pints of guiness

  19. Even more eerie by Zot+Quixote · · Score: 0

    The Kursk, which famously sunk in 2000:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f6/Kursk_wreck.jpg

  20. Lucky 13 by pgmrdlm · · Score: 1

    From the wiki article you provided the link to, this was the 13'th sub out of 16 that was being towed for decommission.

    Lucky 13.

    --
    Anonymous comments are as pathetic as the anonymous "sources" that contaminate gutless journalism from the New York Time
  21. cromulent by MooseTick · · Score: 1

    What a cromulent observation!

  22. just fire up the reactor by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    and use it to boil the water out of the sub - hey presto it raises itself to the surface. Those sub reators are uber-reliable it probably still works.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    1. Re:just fire up the reactor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, yeah, like that will work! If you have holes in the hull, then that would be an exercise in futility (akin to Sisyphus, a hill and a big rock). Assuming you can get electrical power down there and hook it up to run waterlogged electrical equipment to withdraw control rods and restart the reactor to produce enough heat to boil water, you'd also have to patch the holes (anyone ever tried to weld underwater at 800 feet down?) to keep the steam in and push the water out. A great feat if you can pull it off, but ...

  23. Hunt for Red October? by Compaqt · · Score: 1

    In Soviet Russia, sub finds you!

    (Haven't read the article or the summary, so only the mods will tell if the oblig. joke is relevant.)

    --
    I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
  24. Nothing new here. by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

    I'm unsure exactly what's newsworthy here. The Russians have known where the wreck lies since the day it was lost. Computer generated imagery from high resolution sonar has been around for over a decade, as have ROV's carrying said high resolution sonars, as well as the sonars themselves.
     
    Or, IOW, move along - nothing to see here but a 'news' story based on a self serving puff piece press release.

    1. Re:Nothing new here. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      There's a pretty picture.

      It's not particularly news worthy, in a general sense, but it's a lot more "news for nerds" than a lot of stories.

  25. s/Grounded/Sunken by newdsfornerds · · Score: 1

    It did not run aground on a shoal or beach. It sank.

    --
    Damping absorbs vibrations. Dampening is caused by moisture.
  26. Biggest threat of nuke proliferation by DCFusor · · Score: 1

    Is all these ditched Russion subs -- the reactors alone have quite a lot of already enriched fuel in them, and who knows what else they carried. 248 meters they say is hard. Hah -- if you were a state or sub-state actor and knew where one was, you'd be after that thing foot horse and marines -- and get it. I bet you can even see the thermal bloom on some of them via satellite.

    --
    Why guess when you can know? Measure!
    1. Re:Biggest threat of nuke proliferation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure where you got your degree in nuclear engineering - or not, but it is practically 100% unlikely that there is enough of a chain reaction going on in the reactor core, other than decay of fission products, to produce any noticeable heat let alone see a "thermal bloom" from a satellite. Once the chain reaction shuts down, even after a couple years of cooling, the heat level is very low. Having worked as a reactor engineer at a commercial nuke power plant, the residual heat from decay of fission products in a spent fuel pool containing over 500 spent fuel assemblies (times 200 fuel rods per assembly) was a modest 3 megawatts (equivalent to the amount of electrical energy a single, typical US home consumes in 3 months). And submarine reactors are significantly smaller than a commercial reactor, so the existing thermal energy is much lower. At about 800 feet down underwater, no way you'll see a thermal bloom at the surface. As to rogue personnel trying to recover the nuclear materials, that would be no simple undertaking that could go unnoticed by anyone. It would require very specialized equipment to put people on the bottom, support ships on the surface, and heavy duty welding equipment the cut into the reactor vessel where the reactor core is and get it to the surface. Water is a great radiation shield, but even after 20 years, the reactor core packs a pretty lethal radiation dose that the human body (or many bodies) would be unlikely to survive very long. As to any nuclear weapons warheads, if there are any, they don't have the dose of a reactor core, but retrieving them is not much easier. Not even close to being as easy as going to your next door neighbor and borrowing a cup of sugar.

  27. Re-verify our range to target... one ping only. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Give me a ping, Vasili. One ping only, please.

  28. Late April Joke by Shompol · · Score: 1

    And this what one of the commenters had to say:
    "I process sonar data and if that is an image based on real soundings I will eat a school of Atlantic Cod. I think someone had too much time on his hands and a fancy computer on April 1."