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The Sopranos Meet H-1B In New Jersey
theodp writes "We smack this IT geek around a little, take him for a nice car ride, threaten to 'take care of him' if he doesn't recant his story, give him 5 G's for his trouble, and badda boom, badda bing, case dismissed. Federal prosecutors allege that an H-1B visa-holding IT employee who was owed some $53,000 in back wages was threatened in meetings at restaurants and in his home if he didn't change his story. However, the victim captured some of what happened on tape, and two employees of an Illinois-based IT staffing company — not named in the indictment but identified by the NJ Star-Ledger as ComData Consulting Inc. of Rolling Meadows, IL — are now facing extortion-related charges and a possible 20 years in prison."
If you don't stop that then the Slashbot will be sent to take care of you. Oh, and here's 5gb for your trouble.
I hate printers.
This behavior is unacceptable from companies that have offices in America. That might be how people do business in other places, but they need to leave that shit at the door. Perhaps someday we'll realize this has been going on in Chinese restaurants and massage parlors for 50 years and do something about those too?
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Geeks live for this sort of crap, so don't try it.
You will lose.
[End Of Line]
Why shouldn't a company be allowed to do this in a free market? The Market is self-correcting, so if they do this then no one will work for them and they will go bankrupt. So let them do it, that is the American Way!
When I was an undergrad I used to eat across the street from the Engineering building at a small Vietnamese restaurant, it was cheap and hot.
One particular late night I came there with a few hours of Hydro HW, sat down and ordered some Pho and started taking my stuff out of my backpack when I heard this inhuman scream and a slap. I thought they were being robbed or something and froze there in terror until I started hearing the crying and "shhhhhh" sounds I remember all too well from a Catholic school upbringing, someone was being beaten in the back and whoever was doing it was trying to stop other people from finding out. I am ashamed to say it but I went outside and smoked a cigarette, ate the Pho and left as quickly as possible. I think I even left a tip. The next week I came in during the day to get something and the woman behind the counter had a fading welt in the shape of a belt across her face and she was smiling.
So, after that shameful moment of realization I went to the Women's Resource Center on campus and told them. Never found out what happened though, that woman's face behind the counter haunts me to this day. Too many of just do nothing when we know the shitty situation those workers find themselves in.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Not that I advocate that sort of thing, but when I worked for local uhmm...businessman as a young hoodl..er...turk, we did more than talk. We made the sale with a sample of the wares. We also offered to send samples to his fam...uh associates. We were always 100% successful and no outside competitors were needed to uh... close the sale. When you mean business, you show it, you don't say it. It's a tough world out there and you gotta get your pound of flesh, uh so to speak. I think the guys in the old ...union...would get a chuckle out of these amateurs.
I've aged gracefully and the old "union" sort of fell apart due to dea..chronic illness and incarcer..early retirement. I've got a Joe Shmoe job now that is far less hazardous and I never had to suffer any of the usual "illnesses" associated with the job. Too old for that crap now.
try talking about changing the h1b visa laws so that h1b visa holders can change companies when they want to and get paid real us wages for work in the us..
You just couldn't wait to play the race card, could you?
Our Talent Engagement and Management Teams strongly believe in
The capacity of recruiters for absolute BS is amazing. Mind you there are smart ethical headhunters out there, but they're few and far between.
The H1B program deserves to be bashed, mindless or not. It artificially depresses the IT job market by flooding it with workers who are easy for companies to bully or take advantage of. These workers allow themselves to be treated like crap because they cannot leave their jobs without risking getting sent back to India. Most of them are afraid to speak up when they are treated unfairly because #1, they feel like they have it better than they did in India and #2, they don't know their rights in our country.
Email to info@comdataus.com. If you have hiring authority, promise never to use them. If you don't have hiring authority, just remember the name and badmouth them to anyone who does.
Think global, act loco
their abuse, there are no psychic cops; report crime, document crime, be free
try talking about changing the h1b visa laws so that h1b visa holders can change companies when they want to
Umm, they can.
and get paid real us wages for work in the us
The law already requires that. The abuses arise from the difficulty in defining the "real us wages for work in the us".
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
Here is an even better idea: Lets change the immigration laws so that if someone wants to work in the US, they can quickly and easily acquire citizenship. I assert that anyone who wants to be an American citizen enough to ask to be, deserves to be. All of this isolationist shit should have died along with the 20th century.
If we just grant these people citizenships, then we won't have to worry about the ethical ramifications of having multiple legal classes of workers in the country.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
20 years for extortion, and how many years for falsifying the need for entry level IT workers? I can name several unemployed people who could easily fit the task of "web development, information technology and software development" mentioned in the article. Specialized skill, yeah right.
Judging by the content of recruiters e-mails that I get, it is not possible to get an IT related job in the United States right now unless you are an H1-B visa holder.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
What, exactly, is mindless about citing this heinous shit as a fine reason for not supporting H1B corporate slavery?
Why didn't anyone tell me this earlier? I didn't know I could use my computer science degree to intimidate people. So here is my resume future iron fisted IT companies.
I'm 6'6", 220 lbs and I have a black belt in mixed martial arts. Also I have a degree in computer science, and some other degrees...wait ignore that part the first part is more important for what you need me to do.
Get back to me as soon as possible
Under Illinois law, you can only audio record if all parties are made aware of the recording. If this guy was recording surreptitiously, then he might be in for some legal trouble of his own, not to mention that the recording may or may not be admissible (IANAL).
This is exactly why we have criminal law. There is a special place in hell for people who take advantage of vulnerable people, but while they are here on earth we have another place for them--prison.
I'm outraged.
...URL is:
. http://www.desicrunch.com/DisplayReviews.aspx?company=Comdata_Consulting_Inc
Hey Fed's, you listening?
They should be able to quickly and easily get a citizen-track visa or green card, but if we just grant citizenship to everybody who wants it, people will just be citizens for as long as it is convenient - say, as long as it takes to acquire the knowledge to offshore a process or function. There is every reason to give green cards to hardworking people who want to live and die in America, but I can't fathom why we want guest workers - except to hold down domestic wages.
I remember years back being lured to a new job with one of the incentives being that the job included health insurance. Turned out that they 'had' it terms of it was offered, not included. It was an awful plan with no employer cost coverage. The cost for my family would have been a grand a month if I had paid for it.
I explained that I was one phone call from going back to where I came from and that the recruiters deceptive words were going to have a cost. In the end they ate the cost of the insurance, and I stayed where I was. Some people will bully you unless you stand up for yourself. All that being said, in today's economy I don't know if that is still good advice.
How about accountability in H1B with public records? That would solve this kind of problem for the poor guy who was owed so many back wages. Those in the states who are losing out to H1B's would better be able to make the case that their are Americans who can do the job. Those that do come over could avoid being turned into virtual slaves, I have met far too many H1B's who were worked 80 hours a week for wages less than half what an American would take. They would do it too, whether it was because their passport was confiscated or because such wages were still that much better than what they made at home.
This is fascinating in light of the recent lawsuit filed and won in Louisiana on behalf of a group of teachers from the Philippines who were brought here to teach and virtually held hostage by the agency that recruited them. (They won their lawsuit a few days ago--can't recall the more recent source.) Their visas were held by the recruiter as they were squeezed for ever-increasing fees, forced to rent substandard housing at exorbitant rates, and otherwise abused.
It's especially fascinating to me that in these recessionary times when recent American college graduates can't find work, we have to import elementary and high school teachers and people with the most basic IT skills so that they can be held in indentured servitude and squeezed for more and more money. I guess human trafficking is no longer limited to unskilled workers.
"Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
It would not only be a fun and refreshing change from "normal" work, it would create so many new networking opportunities. Think of all the great and influential people you would meet!
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
You are utterly ignorant.
I suggest before you start talking about how 'isolationist' America is, you get a few facts about how many people legally immigrate to America every year.
If we just grant everyone in the entire world who asks for it citizen ship then we'll effectively turn America into the worst of 3rd world nations over night.
We can help other people, no argument there, but we can't be fucking retarded like you suggest or we won't do anything but hurt EVERYONE, them AND us.
What? Why? What logic did you use to establish that? If we make them 'legal' they'll still be the exact same workers as before doing the exact same jobs.
If they want to work, they'll still work under the table. You can report people for paying under the table but a lot of times the company that 'pays' you will just disappear and you'll be unemployed.
In whatever Utopina fantasy universe you imagine it may be possible for America to support the entire world, but in case you haven't noticed, supporting our own internal population growth isn't sustainable, let alone taking in others.
No, thats a thoughtless idiotic idea spit out by some idealist with no actual connection to reality what so ever.
We are not all equal. We never will be. We never have been. There will always be members of our species that do better in some situations than in others. If you want to live in a world with no classes you'll find the only thing you accomplish is getting run over by someone with far fewer delusions.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Allowing everyone to obtain citizenship also means it's a fiscal impossibility to guarantee any level of income or health care. Having a limitless green card program is politically intractable enough; a limitless citizenship program is hard to imagine this century.
Sheesh, where did your entitlement come from? Unless you're a fucking Native American, you'd best STFO and be happy that your ancestors illegally immigrated here lest you be born into some "awful non-US country."
As it is, having a h1-b or having to physically move overseas or creating some sort of relationship over there, has kept us from sinking that low - but it will happen eventually. I don't see the World's economy growing fast enough to account for all the labor being added as more and more countries start trading with the rest of the World.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
You can't say it's always "mindless" to "bash the whole H1B program, all Indian techies and Indian call centers"--there are a few who do it out of prejudice, but most Americans complain about these things for perfectly rational reasons.
"Buy American and Americans work." That was the well-advertised slogan of the 80s, and yet NAFTA and outsourcing empowered a transnational corporate world in opposition to the very values of localism and national pride which most Americans grew up embracing. Importing foreign workers and exporting American jobs are some of the most visible violations of these values.
The oft-repeated mantra is, "We don't have enough skilled workers, so we need H1B!" Then why does almost anyone in the tech sector know many skilled but unemployed Americans? And if there were a real shortage, introductory salaries and incentives would let the "free market" attract more Americans to become qualified for tech jobs in the near future--but instead, H1B keeps introductory salaries and incentives artificially low and _creates_ the very shortage tech employers complain about!
"Call center work (or 7-11 clerking, or construction, or industrial farm work, or any 'unskilled labor') is drudgery no Americans are willing to do!" Bullshit. Maybe they won't do it for minimum-wage-or-less like immigrants or outsourced labor, but if not unfairly undercut by immigrants or outsourcing there are millions of Americans who would gladly work any and every job. Just look at the damned unemployment rate, especially among minorities--it is patently unjust and unreasonable to support immigration and job outsourcing when so many Americans are left jobless. If a job is vital and needs to get done, employer and employee will find the right pay each is willing to live with--the market will set fair pay in a fair, largely closed system. But in an open system filled with endless hordes of immigrants and outsourced labor willing to work for wages no American can live on--unless he's willing to live in a closet and eat the cheapest processed foodcrap imaginable and never even dream of supporting a family and kids--employees become a disposable commodity and employers will exploit the unjust and unnatural imbalance.
So, while what happened to this H1B guy is inherently unfair, criminal, and wrong--it is the foreseeable result of the H1B program, which along with outsourcing and uncontrolled immigration is creating an imbalanced market where workers both skilled and unskilled are disposable commodities instead of people.
And that doesn't even begin to touch on the cultural issues. The Western world, and especially the U.S., is currently committing cultural suicide by not limiting immigration to rational levels. We are a nation built on immigration, that's true--but it has never neared this uncontrolled torrent before: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069#
"It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."--Andrew Jackson
Your numbers are at least 50 years out of date. The only reason our (US) population growth is even positive is due to immigration. (direct immigration and children of first time immigrants) If zero population growth isn't sustainable, we have bigger problems than immigration to worry about.
The fact that your facts are so off makes me doubt the rest of your argument.
T
Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
Really? Let's see, I'm a newly minted H1B. My wages here are $15k above the wages that the role was offering (so I'm nicely into six figures before bonuses and stock). I've been coding for 20+ years, I've been brought in to upskill the team and bring those 20 years of experience to bear, I'm leading the development of a small product, pushing code quality, dealing with other teams, users and the wider open source community.
But then I'm British. So why don't you just say what you mean? That you don't rate Indian developers. Don't try to hide behind the H1B programme - you have a problem with a sub-continent, and you're tarring everyone from there with the same brush.
> Try Googling "human trafficking". I think you'll find that many undocumented immigrants live under conditions little better than slavery.
Close. Actually, I think you'll find that many undocumented immigrants live in conditions of slavery. To the extent where the only real distinction is that the law--which they don't know anyway--says that it's illegal.
You'll also find that hundreds of thousands of American teens are at high risk for being kidnapped or tricked into a life of slavery. Sources: The Polaris Project, Terry Lee Wright's River of Innocents, Victor Malarek's The Natashas.
Not that we should care whether it's an immigrant or not. And the difference in the cultures of different immigrant groups make different techniques useful in finding and prosecuting human traffickers. But it's not really an immigrant problem, so much as a human one.
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
Extortion was very common at BellSouth a few years ago when I worked there as a contractor. The majority of contractors were H1Bs from India. They were working 50-60 hour weeks but were told to only charge 40 if they wanted to keep their jobs. It wasn't the contracting firms putting the squeeze on them; it was Bellsouth management putting pressure on them to meet deadlines without charging overtime. Their rates were undercutting local contractors and with them only charging 40 hours for 60 hours of work, there was no way to compete, so I bailed.
> This behavior is unacceptable from companies that have offices in America. That might be how people do business in other places, but they need to leave that shit at the door.
I agree. We have to change it. But it's not just a foreign problem.
This is New Jersey. If you haven't heard a story about something like this happening in New Jersey, you haven't been listening. It's like not hearing a story about questionable behavior by waste contractors in several of the nation's major cities, or not hearing about racism on the part of law enforcement in some towns in the South. Sure, there are lots of legitimate businesspeople, and waste contractors, and helpful law enforcement officers. But the other kinds also exists and even thrives. Sure, sometimes its people bringing in their problems, but we have a lot of our own.
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
IT staffing firms don't fall into the first category, and web developers don't fall into the second.
Thanks for the link - the video makes sense when you consider the illegal aliens. But I sincerely doubt H1B program is causing any significant amount of population growth in the United States. The 6yr cap, the dismally low Green card numbers leading to decades of wait periods, the very volatile IT job market, the fact that most h1-b workers are brought by outsourcing companies which by definition means that they are temporary (2-3 year average stay in my experience) - this all means that H1-B people are may be not even be significant to cultural, environmental and all the other issues pointed out in that presentation.
Wow, another mindless rant full of misconceptions, Where should I start?
The H1B's (as opposed to "outsourced jobs") are paid the same as an American worker would. So, please learn the difference and understand to place your indignation in the right place. The H1-B Program is a legitimate way for companies to be competitive. You should be holding your representatives and senators accountable for updating the rules and enforcement to root out these types of fraud. But it is easier to "bash the whole H1B program, all Indian techies and Indian call centers". In this case, the angst is misplaced and done out of ignorance or malice. People who engage in this are, quite frankly, ignorant and will willfully throw the baby out with the bathwater. Call your senator and congressman and tell them to fix the H1 Visa program.
Anecdoatlly, I feel that the mantra "We don't have enough skilled workers, so we need H1B!" is actually accurate when taken in context - and for two completely different reasons. One is that you're lumping all "skills" together: a Web Developer is NOT a good systems administrator or a DBA. So, you do get spot shortages of specific skillsets in places. The second is that the Indian software industry focuses on developing niches more effectively than in the US. Our kids are well rounded - they're not as good at being specialists in a given field. So, I can locally find a guy who can figure out his way in a given system (makes for a great supervisor of contract resources, BTW). But if I need someone who understands the intricacies of the SAP-HR module, it is more efficient to get a contract specialist. This is where companies that staff using H1-B's excel because I (a) can't keep this specialist busy and productive 40/hr a week month-after-month and (b) he won't ever be remotely interested (even if he does have the skills) in taking on a more flexible role.
In short, the above has been my experience.in the past 15 years of being in IT and then in SW Development. I have found that many Americans workers detest working with Indian colleagues (regardless of whether they're H1-B or not). I find this racist and stupid in the extreme and this attitude really hurts them and gives American workers a bad name. I know that some managers will prefer to not mix US sourced folks with employees or contractors of Indian origin.
I actually had a US Citizen turn down a 6month contract at $105/hr because he felt that the working conditions were not appropriate. His complaint: no assigned cube with window view and he reported to an "unqualified" supervisor ... which was code for someone of Indian background.
So, I have a hard time finding sympathy with your post. Perhaps if it was a little more informed and researched, I might be willing to engage constructively.
Twenty years is not enough and I hope they sweep up the entire company!
Oh yeah? How do we explain YOU then?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The idiots from the IT outsourcing firm should have done it the "dot com" way. Under pay him by the same amount but promise him lots of stock options with absurd vesting requirements. Too bad if the the stock options go under water and then disappear through a corporate buyout.
You may have better odds striking it rich in Vegas or by playing the lottery but stock options in lieu of salary are legal.
Cheers,
Dave
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
And fear of the unknown. Even being beat or dying doesn't hold a candle to the fear of the unknown. When people are in an abusive relationsihp, they often stay because the abuse and beatings they get here are at least known. Comparatively, they don't know if they leave _what_ will happen.
Fear of the unknown stops people from many things: from leaving abusive relationships, to success in business and life. It's also a huge problem for guys wanting to ask a girl out.
"We smack this IT geek around a little, take him for a nice car ride, threaten to 'take care of him' if he doesn't recant his story, give him 5 G's for his trouble, and badda boom, badda bing, case dismissed."
We offered him a rig with DUAL SLI ATI Radeon 5970s and an i7 Extreme CPU with liquid cooling. Badda boom, badda bing, case dismissed
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
I'll agree with you, but for different reasons. Americans *ARE* willing to do these jobs. Hell, I did such work -- when I was 16 -- and for a couple of years after that. These are jobs (not necessarily construction or farm anyway) that have been traditionally done by high-school or college students trying to make some spending money. I honestly don't think a full time job serving burgers was EVER meant to support one person in economic luxary, never mind a family of four.
When I was at age to work, the ethic in my house (and many other houses judging by my co-wokers) was "if you want money to spend, get a job". I think it's a good ethic. It teaches us a few lessons -- at an IMPORTANT time in our development -- independence, that "stuff has a price" and if we want more "stuff", we have to work harder or find a way to do without.
Have that apply to firms like Grigsby & Cohen(known for their hostility to citizens in hiring practices) that as well.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
> Good examples, but FYI the word "née" works the other way around.
You are correct, but you didn't explain it, and I think people will have a hard time remembering how it works if they don't know. The word née means "born" so it's like you're giving the birth name of a person. That's why you list their original name after the word née, e.g. Xe (née Blackwater).
> but most Americans complain about these things for perfectly rational reasons.
ha haha do you really believe that? No they don't, they do it for one of two reasons:
1. They are racist, even if they don't want to admit it (though to be fair, it's usually more ignorance than racism)
2. They are scared that they are going to lose their job to someone else.
I remember when we had a lot of upgrade related tedium that nobody at my company wanted to do, so we hired an Indian company do do it. The white trash people in my company (who, remember, didn't want to do the work), started making silly complaints:
"Doesn't India have like a 24 hour time difference?" No, and if they did, 24 hours would mean 0 hours. They don't mind working different hours to humor us, and it's better if they work off hours anyway, so they can get stuff done when we're sleeping.
"But do they speak English? Probably only Indian" - yeah, there's no language called Indian, brianiac. I guess they didn't know that the official language of instruction at many many places in India is English.
Also, the whole "Our Jobs" concept is bogus. There is work to be done. There is no place where god or satan defined which work is "our work". There's work to be done, and people willing to do it. If I live in New York, does that mean I should say people can't come from New Jersey to do it "My" New York work? I mean, get real. Bitching about people coming to the US to work will only result in the work being moved overseas instead, and the US will decrease in relevance.
Oh yeah, Americans love a free market, when it works to their advantage. As soon as it goes against your advantage, then you don't like it. Part of capitalism is that you will earn the market price. With the world shrinking, and a lot of people overseas willing to work harder than americans for less pay, that market value is falling for many basic jobs. That's the way it is, get used to it - or you could just bitch about it some more instead. There are ways to insulate yourself from it and prepare, though. I suggest you read "the world is flat" for more about that.
Anyway, as an American who had to go through a lot of hurdles to get a Visa somewhere else, I agree that the H1, and similar programs are not great - but in the opposite way. There should be no such requirement to get a Visa. That's just a hurdle to free market dynamics. I would vote that people should be able to move between countries in the future like they do states now, as the world shrinks. All the visa processing mainly just creates headaches for everyone. If anyone could simply move to the US or any other country they wanted (so long as they pay taxes, etc.), then a lot of people would come to the US, and realize that working at McDonalds there isn't any better than working at McDonalds in China or India, and go back. People with true skills would be able to get employed with less hassle, and if you ever got tired of bitching about how immigrants stole "your" jobs, you could go somewhere else and steal theirs. Some countries have taken a step in this direction (The Working Holiday program, which includes Canada, Autrailia, Japan, New Zealand, and a few others) - and it's been good for them in general. It hasn't lead to an explosion of illegal immigrants and the fall of society.
try talking about changing the h1b visa laws so that h1b visa holders can change companies when they want to Umm, they can.
If the next company sponsors them, if they don't (it costs quite a bit) they can't. The worker also can't just up and quit his job like you and me either as they're isn't a grace period. Complaints usually end in a quick termination and then the person has a short period to be on the next flight back to home. Try filing a lawsuit while in a different country and not even being a citizen. It's a difficult situation. On the same note, I agree with making h1b's harder to get and more lax once you get them (aka a grace period of atleast 90days, higher wages based on average salary for similar positions, etc).
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
But in an open system filled with endless hordes of immigrants and outsourced labor willing to work for wages no American can live on
Companies sponsoring H-1B employees are required to offer them a fair salary, which is meant to prevent cheap labor importation. From wikipedia's H-1B article:
Employers must attest that wages offered are at least equal to the actual wage paid by the employer to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job in question
There is no shortage of citizens that are capable of doing the job - they just have the problem of being a US citizen.
Cancel the program and make it impossible to ignore the citizen until there is a real problem (long-term & short-term unemployment under 2%). Make it so that permatemping/temporary work does not count towards that 2%. Then reinstate with a sufficient amount of people(whom are paid a wage that discourages bribery) to enforce that law.
When you hear "shortage" used to describe the amount of citizens in a needed part of the private sector(whether it is IT or most non-temporary forms of employment in the US), the source is lying through their teeth.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
No, you are quite wrong. While the average birthrate for white citizens is below average population growth, the blacks are reproducing on average at 4.5 children per male and female adults (meaning twice the population growth). Ignoring latina's is like 3.something. We have a growing population count without immigration.http://flagcounter.com/factbook/us
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
When will recruiting companies learn about the basic technologies that we consultants use on a daily basis such as "tape recorders" and "video cameras"?
Your point is valid to an extent, there are a few diamonds among the ruff and there are some piss poor american programmers. But (in my experiences and most anecdotal experience I've heard) most native India indian programmers cannot program the simplest stuff. I've come to the belief that it is a culture thing, the ways we think and process stuff has got to be completely different here compared to there. I don't know what's so hard about thinking logically but trying to explain something (with pictures and everything, I spent 6 months in Hydrabad training a team) always seems to fail. Honestly I don't know why that entire country is mostly full of fails.
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
"...system filled with endless hordes of immigrants and outsourced labor willing to work for wages no American can live on..." - as someone who went through H1B program myself, I can attest your view of the program is utterly wrong. Sure, there are plenty of scambags (namely four big Indian consultancies) that game the system, but there is no "endless hordes" of immigrants (just about 50K in recent years if you exclude graduates from US universities.) And surely offshoring (I take that's what you really mean by outsorcing) does not have anything to do with H1B which is about 'onshoring' labor, not shipping out work.
As for wages, all my colleagues ( and I mean dozens ) from H1B days in couple of years were paid way "more" than run off the mill IT drone. And do not even get me started about how many welfare queens and public service "workers" live off theirs and mine taxes. We'd be very lucky to collect one-tenth of that when retired.
That is what we said about slavery for over 100 years.
Your post illustrates why capitalism and free market rhetoric is so bankrupt, it's not that we can't employ these people it's that there is no will to change the system.
Really. Most Americans are clueless regarding H1b and its variants.
Big Indian company: own clients, 95% employees, including PMs and business analysts working in USA imported from India on H1B (less) L1 (more). Pay would be much less compared to America/Americans. They are rotated and sent back to India after some time. Once such a co gets a contract, expect to see only Indians in their payroll. Discrimination, as they have a US office? oh yeah. Does anyone care? guess not.
Small Indian company: 100% employees on H1, (some on L1 if the company is Indian and have a token India office as well), save for Suzi secretary answering phones and occasionally checking boss's 'hardware'. Two-room office in some city. Great links with recruiters, esp ones in the favored contracting links of US companies. No direct clients. no hiring manger ever talks to them.
Consultants: often the cheapest India can offer (Good ones work for multi-nationals with India offices, or the very big consulting cos) are the only ones working with small cos. Live in a small apartment with roomies. dream of transferring to another company for a permanent offer and eventual green card.
Client: Wants only people with 10 years experience in every technology even ones invented last year.
Modus operandi: consulting co takes the techie, gives him a one week buzzword course, asks him to rewrite the resume using several sample ones, making a 3-year experience 15 year one (every consultant from India has been working on projects with brokerage firms on their stock trading app for the last 25 years, if you read sample NYC bank-consultant resume), arrange friends as old-boss references, and pass on to a middleman. Middleman, usually white American, will arrange an 'interview' with the client company whose pockets he has already padded. Result the consultant gets hired.
If its a big co with a direct project to the client, no worries, everyone goes into the project. Everyone from PM to development to test to meeting minutes shall be taken by employees from India/Brazil/Philippines (whichever is cheaper). Those jobs are GONE at that point.Those jobs are never openly hired, but filled only using offshore cadres.
So there. Sometimes smaller (est) cos try to increase their margins by not paying consultants while on bench, or 'unpaid leave'. Sometimes they will be paid subsistence wages. Sometimes some smart guy will read up on labor laws and complain to DOL. Then stuff like this happens.
Part of the problem is geographical location. Call center work at $20/hour moves to Appalachia at under $10/hour, and you get to choose between moving and being unemployed. Most choose the layoff, but a few take the incentive to go train the n00bs. Often they return back where they were, because going from a $20/hr environment to $10/hr is a big culture shock, even if your wage stays the same.
Programming and other jobs can be virtual - I haven't worked with a team mate for 6 years now, barely meeting the ones I did work with. But I reorganized a few times and now I haven't met 16 out of the 20 people I work directly with now.
Where are the jobs, and are the skilled people there, and if not are they willing to move? Or even apply?
Who supposedly support the free and lubricated market when it comes to the free movement of capital across the globe can be so protectionist when it comes to labour. By the tenets of capitalism, a Bangladeshi man should be able to move to New Jersey without let or hindrance and put X plumbers and handymen out of business. How come the proponents of capitalism can consider with glee another country's protected industries and financial markets falling to the inexorable march while at the same time, oddly, not sharing the glee of, say, a Sri Lankan chicken farmer at the thought of selling Americans chicken for 0.50$ / lb, retail?
Capitalist? Ha
you actually have no idea about the level of corruption in "developing countries". There may be lot of sh!t going at top level, but at grassroots level the level of corruption in US is not even a small % of what goes on in countries like India. I live there, so I know.
Heck, to repair my phone line I was asked for a bribe directly, ad if you want a new electricity connection, be prepared to pay big.
And guess what, in the west you have to bribe to get something "Wrong" done, in India you have to bribe for the right thing too!
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
ARE YOU LIEING in court? ATI cards don't do SLI. That will be 20 years bailiffs take him away.
All the smart people in India have already moved to the States with their families for a better living environment and better pay.
All the rest stay in India, where they job-hop every 3 months for a raise until all the remaining smart ones end up being in management, which really doesn't do their technical productivity any favors.
We're seeing the same sort of thing (with the job-hopping) in Eastern Europe now, but albeit at a much slower pace.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
10 years ago if you had a degree and an MCSE you could start at 5k a month and if you had 5 years experience demand 8k a month or walk out the door! Houses were only $170k with 5% down. As long as you could show up you could work anywhere.
Could any of you imagine reading such a story 10 years ago? Shaking head ...
I keep hearing how bankers such as Goldman Sachs are betting agaisn't America and Greece are doing everything in their power to have total destruction in order to reduce bargaining power and enslave the world in debt.
I have nothing really to say other than disbelief on how this could happen in such a short short time. I do not think I should peruse I.T. anymore but this globalization is likely going to adversely effect all jobs.
http://saveie6.com/
It's good to see the Department of Labor putting some teeth into labor law again. During the Bush years, too many regulatory agencies were out to lunch. The SEC, of course, we know about. Less well known was the attitude at the Labor Department. Now they're catching crooks again.
Also, Obama just made two recess appointments to the National Labor Relations Board. The NLRB was down to two members, and couldn't do anything. Now the NLRB is back in business. It's going to be easier to unionize.
US wage and hour law, as enacted by Congress decades ago, is quite pro-labor. It's the enforcement that's been weak. Looks like that's changing.
Here is an even better idea: Lets change the immigration laws so that if someone wants to work in the US, they can quickly and easily acquire citizenship. I assert that anyone who wants to be an American citizen enough to ask to be, deserves to be. All of this isolationist shit should have died along with the 20th century.
Let me tell this to you as a foreigner.
You can't give citizenship out left and right. What makes your country is your culture (and I don't mean things like country music or apple pie here...), and if you just open your borders, you will be immediately swamped by third-worlders (like me) who want their piece of the quality-of-life pie. They don't care in the slightest how the pie came to be there in the first place, or what they have to do, long-term, to keep it - well, some will, but they are the minority. Most just want to have it.
Therefore, for immgiration to be productive, rather than detrimental, to your society, you need to make sure that, however many people you take in, they are assimilated into your culture - and that's your upper limit. And the relatively straightforward way to see how good the immigrant is assimilating is observing how they do when they're still on worker's visa. It also gives them time to learn the language, as well as basics of living in a new place (you'd be surprised to know how many things that are mundane to you are strange and alien to a newcomer), and see what the society there is really like, and decide whether they're really sure they can be a proper part of it.
To that extent, the process of acquiring permanent resident status (and eventually citizenship) from worker visa shouldn't be too simple - you need some gates there to control it. The biggest problem with your program as is is twofold. First, there are no established terms or guarantees. In most other countries that have similar programs in place, you are eligible to apply after working in the country for a certain specific period of time, and the process is straightforward in a sense that there are usually point-based systems with published evaluation criteria, so, for the most part, you know in advance whether you will be approved or not (unless you don't pass a security background check - but that isn't typical, though chances of a "false positive" are higher in today's terrorism-crazy world). The amount of time that processing of the application takes from the moment you submit it is also generally known fairly well.
In contrast, applying for a green card from H1-B is very much a gamble - you never know if they approve you or not, nor how long it takes - and it can take really, really long. I know of people waiting for 7+ years to get there; for comparison, in Canada, the whole process almost universally takes less than 3 years from the moment you first set foot in the country (including 1 year on worker visa so that you're eligible for fast-track permanent residence).
The second problem is just the one GP noted - that H1-Bs are severely disadvantaged, because they're tied to their employer, and, should he kick them out for any reason, they have to start packing right away - no chance to find another job (in practice, quite a few people actually break the law and overstay to do so - but this is also very much a gamble). Yeah, in theory, employers have to prove that the wage they offer to employee is above market average for this position - but there are many well-known tricks on how to legally do this for practically any number. And, once hired, the employer has both the carrot - raises - as well as the stick - termination of employment - at his full disposal.
If a citizen is denied a raise that he believes is rightly his, he can just quit and go look for a better job - and, if his assessment of his worth was correct, he'll find one. An H1-B just has to suck it up, because however bad he has it, it's usually still way better than what he'd get back home. Ditto for overtime.
And, of course, it screws both H1-Bs them
Even worse, all of his code was for Webistics.
We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone. -management
That used to be true. I know lots of smart Indians decided to go back to India after the first downturn after 2001 and especially now.
Je ne parle pas francais.
As much as you have a point, I've been working in IT for years as well and I've only met one British worker in the US, and I think he's got at least a green card because he married an American girl. Just about everyone else I have ever seen working H1-B is Indian and boy do they fuck them over. As a white man who actually speaks a dialect of English that is considered civilized in the US, you are going to have a decent time of it. The only thing you need to worry about is idiots making too many Limey jokes and telling you that your spelling is funny.
The Indians generally have to worry about unscrupulous companies that bring them in, keep them in the dark and then make sure that they work under conditions that you could consider appalling. I can't tell you the number of H1-B colleagues that I know who have at one time or another had to worry about losing their job and then having to deal with being packed off back to India 5 days later because they are a guest worker.
The problem with H1-B is that it allows more bad than good. Clearly we want to have some guest workers like you over here to provide actual technical expertise, but most of these guest workers are doing jobs that Americans could definitely do and not even getting paid decently for it. That may be because we don't have enough IT people available to work over here, but I suspect that the supposed lack of IT workers is more of a situation where those said workers actually want to be paid US wages and treated like professionals.
Of course, the H1-B problem is one where many of us feel we are being unemployed in favor of cheap labor, but it doesn't change the fact that the program is allowing the guest workers to get screwed too, if they happen to be from somewhere sufficiently backward. That's just bad all around, and I see no reason that it should be allowed to continue as it has been.
In my grandfathers day, a bagboy's salary+tips was enough to support support an adult frugally. A clerk at a corner store could expect to support a small family (essentially the same as working at a 7/11).
Now? A typical wal-mart employee working full time at minimum wage +$0.25 to $2 can pay rent on a 1 bedroom apartment, pay the electric bill and if lucky some food with nothing left for other necessities. Unless you already own a home outright or want to rent space in a crack house, you can not live on that without help. Realistically, it would take about 3 such incomes to support a family with children and that does not count the cost of child care or saving for college/retirement.
In my company, I've seen American workers let go and their positions filled with H1B's. It's illegal, and yet nothing is done. So kindly go fuck yourself.
Did you strip out births to first generation immigrants like I said to? No? There is where you are wrong. If you count births of only second-generation and older immigrants, we are negative. We actually need some of the immigrants just to be stable. (granted we overdid it a bit)
Plus ~1%/year for a place as sparsely populated as the US, is fine for now. Go work on places with 4x or more people/useable area and growth rates 3+%. Those are the places to worry about population growth. The US is fine for now, and self-correcting. (so far anyway)
T
Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
This is not surprising. Some so called "consulting company" which has a non existent office, brings people from abroad (India?). They pay for air fares and even provide accommodation till they get projects to work on. Once they get into projects, they are billed individually for say 100 bucks per hour, the consultants take out 70 bucks and pay the rest 30 to these fellows. And all the while, they are under constant threat by their consulting firms as they cannot move to a different company (Once you arrive on H1B you can shift to working as employees of US companies on an yearly salary). If they come to know about secret negotiations with the new company then God help you.
Prostitution, that's the work the people on H1-B do....
"The H1B's (as opposed to "outsourced jobs") are paid the same as an American worker would." That's bullshit. The job market is just that, a market. Supply and demand. Restrict supply wages go up, increase supply wages go down. Any increase in the supply automatically reduces wages. If there really is a shortage of skilled IT workers, how about investing in education? If people see wages on the rise, you can guarantee more will seek education in the field. If we aren't turning out qualified candidates, look for the reason why. Our math and science education sucks. Importing the products of other, more successful education systems merely hides the fact and covers it up for a little while, until eventual wages between us and them normalize to the point they have no interest in coming here. I for one am not interested in turning America into a 3rd world shit hole so you can find the cheap programmers you want to make some extra profit right now. If there is a real lack of talent, we need a long term solution, and that means improving education, improving access to the education, and letting the market set wages that actually makes the time, effort, and money spent on that education a sound investment.
Furthermore, if we are going to allow immigration (and I think we definitely should) there are much, much better ways then the H1-B program. Ways that lead to citizenship, and a real investment in the future of our country. Ways that enable them to bring their families here, to be represented fairly in our government, and to quit their job if their boss is being abusive or paying them an unfair wage without fear of being deported. H1-B is and always has been a shortcut to cheap labor in the immigration system. If the regular system is to slow and corrupt, FIX THAT, don't make shortcuts.
Right. Just imagine what a mess we'd be in if 100 years ago anyone could become an American citizen just by showing up .. oh wait.
"Allowing everyone to obtain citizenship also means it's a fiscal impossibility to guarantee any level of income or health care."
Hey, I didn't know there was a guarantee of a certain level of income or health care in the US. Where do I go to get my money?
"What makes your country is your culture (and I don't mean things like country music or apple pie here...), and if you just open your borders, you will be immediately swamped by third-worlders (like me) who want their piece of the quality-of-life pie."
This, of course, is already the story of America. Anyone who isn't a Native American is the descendant of people who wanted a better life. Those of us with families that have been here for centuries have no more right to be here than you do.
This, of course, is already the story of America. Anyone who isn't a Native American is the descendant of people who wanted a better life.
It's not that simple - there's also this whole "freedom, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" thing. Everyone wants a better life, but different people understand that differently, and U.S. has its own definition (that is rather unique in some ways).
Right on the money. The result is that the H1-B is only desirable for people who have it "bad" back in their home countries. As a Canadian working in the US for a few years on the comparatively free (but temporary) TN-1 visa, I quite rightly told my employer thanks but no thanks to the second-class status of an H1-B. I've since left, and the US has lost an immigrant who was fluent in the language and assimilated into the culture.
I don't think anyone writing immigration policy in Washington, or the string-pullers in Silicon Valley, Seattle, etc. are shedding a tear, however -- a person integrated into American society with choices and relative freedom of movement is not the type of person they want.
Well, as with most things, there is a hint of truth to all of the above. I work at an Indian owned company, so so I know these things first-hand.
However, outsourcing companies are often hired for tedious jobs that anyone with talent would quit. You have to realize that when judging the quality of those guys you have seen. The companies are getting what they want then.
Do the math: 60% the productivity at 30% of the price works out in the favor of the company paying. you can hire 3 less skilled people for the budget of one skilled local, and get almost two people worth of productivity. This only works on simple tasks that require more grunt and less management though. But.. this is exactly the type of task most places want to have someone else do.
There are genius programmers in India, but they don't usually get stuck working in random projects, but can have their pick of any project they want.
Also, as the IT profession is more common in India compared with the US and Europe, you have to realize that people with no actual interest in what they are doing end up in the field more often - that eventually affects quality.
I am sure that people are going to clam me for this, but with so many unemployed IT people in the US, why are people being imported from other countries? I can see the reason when someone has extremely rare, exceptional, and valuable skills and the US labor pool is unable to fill the demand, but that's not the case with most of these H1-B people. I've seen DBAs, MSCEs, etc from India, Dominican Republic, and Egypt being overworked for $40k in jobs that should be paying a lot more than that, and to workers who are treated well. (OK, well not physically abused or asked to break the law in order to keep their jobs). Where are the unions when this happens? nowhere to be found.
I had been thinking that the US should trade only with countries who have adequate labor and environmental laws, so all businesses have a fair playing field. But then, I realize that in many countries,it's easier to pay someone off to skirt the law than it is to follow the law. To a certain extent this is true here in the US as well, which is why we need to find bastards like ComData and squish them out of existance.
All this talk about making the US a "competitive business climate" is just a race to the bottom in worker's rights. It's time to create standards of behaviour for labor and to see that they are adequately enforced. I would hope that other countries can do the same, and a healthy and viable trading economy between the best countries would be the result. I don't care so much that a salt&pepper shaker set made in the US costs $2.49 while one made in China costs $1, if the quality of the product and the treatment of the workers who produced it is adequate. This doesn't mean that I believe in this whole "Buy American!" crap, because there are so few products which have a certain and comprehensive national origin, and that there are plenty of employers in the US who treat their employees poorly. Being treated well doesn't mean that you have a guarantted 5 weeks of vacation per year, it means that the working environment is decent, there is no deception in wages and benefits, that number of hours per day and days per week are reasonable, and there is no personal abuse by supervisors or co-workers permitted.
I don't, myself, put up with crap at the workplace. I had a boss threaten me with physical violence, in a serious manner and he had the ability to do it and a reputation of a very bad temper. I simply got up and left. I probably could have sued him, but I didn't know that at the time.
The parents comments are amongst the most absurd remarks ive read on /. in a long long time.
America as a country was formed by immigrants from various countries. The sort of cultural brainwashing you wish to perform is crazy. Americas' culture is rich BECAUSE of the variety of immigrants from various nationalities not despite it.
The simplest solution is to remove any hurdle to migrating across nations. The world started with a "my village your village"/ "my tribe your tribe mentality". As society has matured we have evolved into a "my country your country" mindset. How does your parents living in one part of the world cause you to feel more entitled than anyone else? People such as the parent feel threatened in a world of complete borderlessness because perhaps deep down in their psyche they know that there are 100 people who could take away their jobs. Its a classical immigrant mentality of getting into a secure way of life and then immediately expressing a need to let everyone else on earth rot in their misery.
I pity a person which that sort of petty isolationist (all the more because s/he claims to be a foreigner).
Well, the "one nation under God" was added in the fifties by Americans. So apparently the current population of US citizens seems to have a severely different grasp of what a "better life" is than the renaissance men who founded the country in the first place.
I look at my own constitution and the state of my nation, and we're facing a very similar issue with Moroccan and Turkish immigrants who are Islamic. Some people want to put caps on immigration, some people want to outlaw Islam because they're clueless and scared.
In the mean time The Netherlands have, since the Unie van Utrecht was drafted and signed in 1579, a ~450 year old tradition of guaranteeing Freedom of Religion and Freedom of a man's Faculty which was continued in our constitutions until this day.
Culture is what you make of it. There's no such thing as a culture that is still alive *and* unchanging at the same time. In the mean time it is important we stay true to the Constitutional values that are the cornerstone of our respective nations.
America as a country was formed by immigrants from various countries.
Vast majority of them European.
Americas' culture is rich BECAUSE of the variety of immigrants from various nationalities not despite it.
You go tell that to the guy down the street who's going to do female circumcision on his daughter - that this part of his culture also enriches the American one.
How does your parents living in one part of the world cause you to feel more entitled than anyone else?
By itself, it doesn't do that. It just results in a higher probability of a person being more compatible with the society in question (since they were raised in it, taught its cultural norms from birth, etc).
Its a classical immigrant mentality of getting into a secure way of life and then immediately expressing a need to let everyone else on earth rot in their misery.
1) I do not reside in U.S., but in Canada.
2) I'm not an immigrant who "got into a secure way". I don't even have PR, much less citizenship.
Cultures change, absolutely. But such changes are evolutionary in nature, and generally happen at the pace with which most members can keep up, or at least tolerate. What I was talking about is a rapid change which discards most, if not all, of the fundamentals, all at once, in a very brief period of time.
And, yes, naturally, any protective measures have to be respectful of the culture they're trying to protect, otherwise what's the point? If part of it is freedom of speech and freedom of religion, then that's what you stick to. It's very unfortunate that some people in the West have recently started to subscribe to the concept that human rights and freedoms - the concept which their civilization is largely responsible for establishing, promoting, and spreading - are not for everyone, and especially not for "foreign-looking" (i.e. not white, Muslim, etc) immigrants.
Last I checked, however, even the most liberal countries still control immigration to some extent or another.
In my grandfathers day, a bagboy's salary+tips was enough to support support an adult frugally. A clerk at a corner store could expect to support a small family (essentially the same as working at a 7/11). Now? A typical wal-mart employee working full time at minimum wage +$0.25 to $2 can pay rent on a 1 bedroom apartment, pay the electric bill and if lucky some food with nothing left for other necessities.
Right, but that's simply the natural effect of population growth, technology, the free market, and capitalism. What do you blame, or think should be done about it? It's not like we can turn the clock back 100 years.
... and then they built the supercollider.
That might be anecdotal evidence but I used to be a H1-B holder and have friends that are or have been in this situation. While on a H1-B I have changed jobs twice, and while it is a little bit more troublesome than while on a green card it is perfectly possible and is much easier than some think.
Transferring a H1-B can be expedited to 2 weeks at extra cost. I don't know the latest fees but the whole process should cost less than $5k. Not that much when you consider how much companies are spending hunting for talent.
Regarding salaries, if they are not competitive then this is not in compliance with the law. Back in 2002 my salary was $60k/year because that how little the company was allowed to pay me. I still managed to get raises, especially
each time I changed jobs.
Also for the grace period, there is some 'reasonable' time allowed. A friend of mine was laid off last year and the lawyers told him 6 months (I kid you not). He had to leave eventually because the economy was so bad but now he is back and has re-activated his H1-B with an other company.
So, yes it is more difficult when you are on a H1-B, but if you are above average talent (which is what H1-B should be for) it is not like you are locked in with your current company.
The only case I can think of is if you had your H1-B for 6+ years are waiting to get a green card. The H1-B get extended by the green card application which is linked to you current employer. This situation sucks, and I don't have much advice knowing the waiting list for some countries is longer than the 6y you can accrue on H1-B. The only thing is that if you are actually talented pressure you manager to get the green card application started ASAP if you plan on staying. Bigger companies tend to have better immigration lawyers and also more willing to eat the cost (which they're supposed to by law).
...unfairly undercut...
What's unfair about it? If an immigrant and a local are both offering to do a job, and one is offering to do it for a lower salary than the other ... that seems perfectly fair to me.
A: How many H1B's go back home when their work permit is up?
Or do they just stay here illegally, and the recruiters commit fraud when filling out W4/W9 forms? Do they pay taxes?
They have no right to complain, no right to go to federal authorities, no right to bargain on wages...no right to go to another employer..
Do they get their green cards and become US Citizens?
They aren't paid the same as an American; if you're so sure, publish your payroll and we'll compare it to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics results on average.
B: Racist? You come here, don't take the time to learn about MY society, about the blood, sweat and tears my forefathers spent to EARN this democracy. You wear those silly dresses and hats, and don't want to participate in American Society in the slightest by wearing our clothing or maybe dropping that confusing accent and trying to talk like us; you complain about shit you have not earned the right to complain about. To boot you smell weird, you do not make an effort to learn our laws or our way of life, and you expect us to accommodate you. You preach, eat, and say scary things in my environment while around me and you smell bad. Finally, I feel like I have to compete with you; that for all the time I have to spend explaining your job to you I am undermining my own career.
A Black man is not a nigger, but a nigger may be a black man. That's not racism; that's how it works.
C: HR managers look for a "person specification"; they want someone to do job X as though they are a cog in a machine. How do you know the Indian guy isn't saying he has SAP-HR module experience, doesn't know anything and as soon as he's got the foot int he door he's spending every waking hour learning that module in and out like any programmer would? I don't think you speak Indian nor know the phone number to his last employer.
Go get yourself some useful skills; you're going to be needing them where this country is going.
Very good comment,
US minimum wage has halved over the past 30 years (Because of ~400% inflation, see wiki) and is now on its way back up.
Kids can expect to earn less than their parents despite being higher educated.
The inflation also causes all life savings to be halved over time leaving no wealth in the population only debt.
Your statement is spot on so blame the FED not H1-B for falling wealth standards.
Population growth? How does that affect it much? More people, more people need to provide services to a larger population.
Technology? To a certain extent I guess. As more fewer people can care for more other people. On the other hand, technology has provided new avenues for services. Instead of 2 small grocery shops there is now 1 large and efficient one, but next to it is a cell-phone dealer...
Free market and capitalism? yes. most certainly. here in norway the minimum wage, while absent in law, in reality is over $15/hr for unskilled labour. Even with a much higher tax-rate than the US that still leave plenty of money for a single person to support themselves frugaly... Yes, eating at a restaurant or even fast food frequently is prohibitly expensive here, but that's because even those people working there makea decent salary.
The low cost of many products and services in the US is based on those providing them being payed really low wages./P
Glad to see someone representative of the typical H1B worker decided to step forward!
Another examle:
Vision Systems Group Indicted for H1B Visa Fraud
http://www.huliq.com/3257/77441/vision-systems-group-indicted-h1b-visa-fraud
You are right, H1B has absolutely no effect on low end subsistence wages. But it does affect mid level wages in IT.
Inflation would not matter much for people still working for a living if the real wages of the average person went up proportionally, though the retired would indeed see their savings dwindle. But it hasn't, no that difference has gone into the growth of the wealth of major corporations and the very wealthy people who own them.
H1-B visa specifically encourages this kind of practices. Low wages and exploitation of immigrants are results, not causes, of this program.
USA is currently the most inaccessible developed country for skilled immigrants. Many other countries either have sane work permit systems or have introduced point systems for skilled immigrants, which basically mean that a skilled immigrant can come there, search for a job, if he/she hasn't found one before, settle and live his/her life contributing to the host country's economy and integrating with it.
In contrast, people coming to the US under H1-B visa are almost exclusively those recruited by companies specializing in trafficking low-wage workers and enslaving them for a limited period of time before dumping them. For a normal company or applicant it's typically way too much hassle and too little benefit to even consider going through this procedure. Both are much better off moving somewhere else.
How about we require outsourced employees hired by US firms to be subject to US minimum wage and labor laws?
I hate Illinois Nazis.
Yes we do via the welfare programs. More importantly allowing unchecked immigration allows for a huge surplus in low end labor. That would push down wages to the minimum levels and push down working conditions as well. The h1b program was a bad idea from the start. Skilled labor does not have a problem getting green cards and unto a citizenship track if they want it. Companies are willing to do what they need to to get these people. In the 80's h1b's did well as the huge difference in wages allowed them to save up enough money in five years to live off the investment income in there home country. I am not sure how well this worked out as many of the home countries have seen drastic changes since then.
No sir I dont like it.
It would be fine to allow everyone in if we had unlimited real estate and resources. It wouldn't be just the H1-Bs coming in though. The problem is that even if you're illegal you qualify for government services. Once they are here they don't have to work. Pregnant? No problem, government subsidized care at your service. Female, can't speak english, have kids, and no income? No problem, the government will pay your rent, give you food stamps, pay for your education, and help you to obtain citizenship. I'm not saying we shouldn't help the poor, and downtrodden, but shouldn't they have some of the responsibility? Look at California. Anyone wonder why they're going broke? This is at least a large part of it. I know this is about H1-Bs, but the prospect of opening the borders would have devistating consequences to our economy.
When this country was founded and had open borders you could come here with nothing but the shirt on your back and a dream. The difference was if you didn't succeed there was no one there to bail you out. Now days it's laughable. There's no risk, and therefore no incentive to succeed. What this kindness has created is a whole culture of people who come here, have children, don't work, and game the system. I've seen plenty of it. The parents are apathetic, the children take everything for granted, and many wind up in jail. In general, they are rude, thoughtless, and lazy. Some would argue that this is because of some form of discrimination, but from what I've seen I think it has more to do with attitude. If you have no respect for the law, and your whole life you are taught that if you want something you just take it, it's not too hard to see the natural progression there.
I don't know if you've noticed or not, but even among American citizens there are different classes of workers. The only reason companies want H1-Bs is because they can pay them less, and milk them for more productivity. We hear how there aren't enough qualified technical people here, but really that's not the issue. There are plenty of highly educated technical people here, it's just that they actually want to get paid for what has taken years of hard work to aquire.
I don't believe in karma, I just call it like I see it.
1. They are racist, even if they don't want to admit it (though to be fair, it's usually more ignorance than racism) [...] The white trash people in my company...
People are not trash. No, not even the poor, white ones. You fucking hypocrite.
2. They are scared that they are going to lose their job to someone else.
Hammer -> nail.
It is not some kind of absolute free-market concept that if you make it easier to get legal guest worker status, that would improve the conditions for these workers because they would then have basic legal protections.
In group behavior: 'because they're evil/morons/sheep/crazy' is not 'insightful' it's 'oversimplified'
In the abuser's mind, THEY OWN their victims. So if they have to hunt down the victim that has left them, it is the worst insolence and to be punished as harshly as possible. It is also their biggest fear, that they DON'T have absolute control, and that their life-lie can be found out. Though they are unaware of this, it is just the overwhelming and unrecognized emotions that dictate their inhumane actions.
A perpetrator might very well kill a victim that has fled from them, feeling justified in doing so, or just losing all control because of their own fears and shattering of their illusion that they have absolute control. It's predatory action, without awareness of consequences. Like an automaton. All this, while towards other people, such people may show signs of empathy and friendship, there is this black hole inside that yearns to live out their darkest wounds (a perpetrator has always been a victim at some point of time).
When you don't even speak the language, it's hard to escape, almost impossible. Like in Dubai, people are being held there in the millions as labour slaves. They can't just flee, because they don't speak the language, the slave-culture is ingrained in Dubai and they may risk death and injury even to think about fleeing. Often, they have been promised great wages, great work-conditions, left their families, borrowed money to travel and is now stuck in a quagmire of economic and social oppression inside Dubai while basically being held as slaves:
The Dark Side of Dubai
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html
Although this is more a socially-accepted slavery, the underlying problems are similar, just in a different flavour. It's not sustainable in the long run. Dubai is like a big fat lie, that eventually will fall back into the desert and the natural environment, sooner or later.
I would never have thought a Suzanne Vega reference would show up show up in this thread.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
The only point of your post that I take issue with is the first part. H1B resources are SUPPOSED to be paid the same as an American worker would be paid and this is certainly the case for many of them. I'm an American currently working in India and India has a similar rule for granting employment visas.
Since I've been here, however, I've heard many stories about people who have been "hired" by contract firms who sponsor them for an H1B visa. I put "hired" in quotation marks because the employees actually pay the contract firm for the privilege. They are told that it's much easier for them to seek citizenship or, at least, another employer who will take over their H1B visa sponsorship once they're in the US.
In my case, there is very little difference in quality of life. I used to own a consultancy business in the "old country" and I was making a lot more money than I do now in the U.S. The fact that cost of life is cheaper here makes up for the difference, somewhat.
My reason to come here was an affinity and an appreciation for basic principles. Call my corny but my reasons to want to stay here are two: the U.S. Constitution and the willingness of its people to take that seriously.
People, including my compatriots, who come here for the big house and the big car; and then bring with them an attitude of "legal relativism," of "it's OK so long as you don't get caught," of "everybody's doing it so I'd be a fool for not doing it", offend me. They are the reason why I left my country in the first place. It's not "immigrant mentality." It's admiring a culture, wanting to be part of it and putting in the effort to make that happen. It makes me protective of that culture.
If a culture is worth abandoning your country for, it's worth defending. Even from your former countrymen.
You can't give citizenship out left and right.
The United States has a long history of doing exactly that, actually. In the late 1840's and 1850's, that allowed German immigrants in who were escaping from the Revolutions of 1848. In the 1850's and 1860's, that allowed the Irish in who were escaping the Potato Famine. Around the turn of the 20th century, it allowed in millions of Eastern and Southern European immigrants in to work in industries such as meatpacking and textiles. In the 1930's and 1940's, it allowed the US to become a long-term refuge for European Jews. I could go on.
Heck, one of the major innovations of government in ancient Rome was that provincials who served in the Roman army were granted citizenship.
I am officially gone from
Indeed. Canada suffers from similar issues, to the point where glorifying terrorists in public floats seems acceptable. Freedom of religion is one thing, but it seems that when it comes to conflicts with law or good sense, we err on the side of not offending said religions/beliefs. Sorry, but if your beliefs involve blowing up a plane (or marketplace, bus, subway, whatever) full of civilians, then you they don't belong here!
IMHO, feel free to wear what you want (except weapons). Read whatever book you want. Attend whatever ceremonies you want. But when it comes to violence or encroaching upon the peace/safety of others... law should trump religion.
...do we really need the H-1B program?
If the wages had not fallen due to inflation they would have simply been reduced out right. Supply and demand work regardless of inflation. In the long term inflation is a zero sum game unless you are in debt (inflation is good) or have a lot of money in the bank (inflation is bad).
What has changed is automation ... labour is just not as valuable as it used to be.
Really about the 6months? I've worked with _a lot_ of h1-b's at Accenture and I was basically told by them they're was no grace period. Even then 60k (even in 2002) with more then 5+ years experience (which I'm assuming) was not competitive. In 2002 entry level was still around 50k (though location does make a difference) and (depending on skill) for a native developer the pay for 5-10years was between 85k-120k.
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
A few months after the company name is fucked, you have a new company name. Sounds like the birth of a new name to me.
Think global, act loco
They are not lying so much as using the word in a new way. There really is a shortage of programmers willing to work at WalMart salaries.
Think global, act loco
That's just bad all around, and I see no reason that it should be allowed to continue as it has been.
That might be true, but as an H1B worker myself, and I realize I can only speak for myself, I can say a) I am not from India; b) I make exactly as much as my American coworkers; c) I don't feel my employer treats me unfairly in any way.
I do agree with the basic unfairness of some features of the program. I really don't like living with the constant possibility that I might have to leave the country on short notice. I am not "afraid to be sent back"; it just makes basic things like planning my future, thinking about retirement, even finding a good school for my child (who happens to be an American citizen by the way) that much harder. I also don't like it that I really don't have a lot of leverage when it comes to discussing promotions and raises, although so far my employer has treated me no different than any of my colleagues.
It must be said though that I knew what the rules were when I got into it. If I don't like the rules I am free to leave at any moment. I don't care much what people's preconceived notions about "not knowing their rights in our country" are, to quote someone up the thread. The fact is that I, and I suspect most of my fellow H1B holders, are sophisticated enough to be able to learn how to live in a foreign country. If any of us chooses not to invest the time to understand the country, its laws and its culture, that's their problem. So say what you will about reforming the system but please be aware that I knew exactly what I was getting into; I am free to leave at any time; I am upholding my side of the bargain; and I expect the U.S. government to uphold their side. Please do not speak on my behalf. I don't want the rules of the game to change before the game is over. Or I want a say in how those rules get changed. Anything less would be extremely unfair.
Now, you are certainly free to complain on your own behalf. If you feel strongly about the H1B program, by all means go learn all you can about it and do everything the law allows you to do to change what you don't like. Just don't say you have *my* interests in mind when you do it.
I am happy to see these 2 crooks nailed by the Govt. and I say being an Indian, once H1-B slave worker who earned freedom to see the american dream unachievable. When I first started I earned 42K/year which was a whole lot compared to what I earned in India(5K/year).I thought of saving and get some economic freedom.Little did I realize it was very little compared to what an american citizen would get for the same job,I was subcontracted to IBM(big -blue). I am sure the middle level contracting companies took most of the money while I was chained into bondage with a hope to get a green card.I slogged my precious years in which I would have given my energy to do something big not only in monetary terms also in creative aspects.I am in this profession not by my education , but by my will to be what I was denied in India. As the years took toll on my psyche where I learnt that most of this consulting industry is built on leaches who have little concern for real customer but on their bottom line. I finally reached the mecca of IT(Sillicon Valley) where I am able to relive some of the dreams only to see the whole economy tanking no matter what hard work you put,you can never have an american dream. I tell most of my folks back in India, if you can make it successful back home , you better do it there, other wise spend a lifetime chasing a mirage.I get to hear that you made a lot of money and you dont want anyone else to have the same opportunity, so I say,it comes with a price,are you ready to pay.
H1Bs are SUPPOSED to be paid as much as an American worker would, but aren't always. In other cases, they ARE, but the difference is extracted by forcing them to work many more hours a week or be deported. In other cases, it's extracted by forcing them to put up with substandard working conditions.
Historically, the response to needing a niche skill was to find a generalist who was close and then send them for training to get up to speed. Wise employers were somewhat free with the training since they never knew exactly when someone might be needed right away. This encouraged loyalty in both directions and long term employment, both good for our society.
You might have run into some racism from time to time, unfortunately it's everywhere. But it also sounds like you're writing off every complaint as racism, perhaps to avoid facing up to the real issues. If one or two applicants won't work with your current management, it MIGHT be racism on their parts. Fine, 10% of Americans are out of work, so hire another. If NO applicant will work with your current management, you have bad management or aren't paying enough for what you want done.
Of course, it sounds like you also want people to work in a dank cave and are too cheap to buy enough furniture. No wonder you have a hiring problem. You're willing to pay someone 200K/year but you're too damned cheap to throw in a cubicle and a chair? Something's screwy there.
The low cost of many products and services in the US is based on those providing them being payed really low wages.
You're discounting the contribution of productivity growth. But I don't disagree over all.
The benefits of productivity growth accrue to the owners of capital, not workers.
60k was my salary out of 'internship' with a Masters. No previous experience other than 1y internship at that same company. I did get raises over time but moved to a different company to get the bigger raise. After 5y I was well within your range, still on a H1-B, higher if you include bonuses.
The biggest hurdle to get hired somewhere else: the 3y experience mark. Before that companies would not even reply to my resumes, nowadays I turn down head hunters.
So your solution is that we should all become nomads?
Honestly, your entire post could be summarized as "shut up and eat your gruel!"
No, they can't. Not really. The bureaucratic barriers to that process are quite high compared to those for a Citizen or someone on a green card.
Just based on this post, it is clear that the US is lucky to have you as an immigrant. Immigration policy should encourage you and make your life as easy as possible, since you are the "right" type of immigrant, but that does not seem to be the result of the current policies.
I believe that most Americans would agree with this, regardless of their stance on the H1-B program.
Thank you.
... anything's legal, as long as you don't get caught. - Travelling Wilburys.
-Dave Haynie
That could work, except you could then prompt many companies to just move their HQ overseas and do everything in their power to minimize their US presence while maintaining a market in the US.
Interesting, are you an India Indian or of another race? (Maybe a citizen of the EU working in the US)
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
I desperately want to agree with you - but can't because what you written is not factually correct (even if what you INTENDED to write was).
Legitimate use of H1B's, by definition, are for foreign workers who are brought to the US from outside to fill a gap in skills/staff-availability. They are required to be paid the prevailing wage. So, if an employer hires a foreign worker under H1-B, they aren't saving any money.
You point that H1-B will depress wages etc. due to the laws of supply-and-demand is somewhat on-point - but by limiting it to 65K/year, the impact to the overall worker pool (of millions of theoretically available workers) is hugely mitigated. More importantly, when the "onshore" cost gets too high, companies look for ways to "off-shore" these positions. So a balance needs to be reached and H1-B is a way to address that.
As for the education system - you're tilting at windmills. You can rant all you want, but until you hold your congressman and senator accountable to drive greater investment in education at the federal/state level (and as a community stop voting down measures to improve education in your local schools), you're not going to change anything. The US education system has the most potential - but we self-castrate when we spend more time deciding if Creationism will be taught in schools at the expense of Darwinism ... rather than spending that time with our kids encouraging them to do well in school and being engaged (if you watched CNN last night, there was a documentary on what contributes to a successful school system).
The current immigration structure is one that has been created by the American people - if you are frustrated with it, don't shoot the Mexicans or the Indians. Castigate your representatives who've sold themselves out to companies that want to turn "America into a 3rd world shit hole so you can find the cheap programmers you want to make some extra profit right now". If you don't do that, you'll be repeating the mistakes of your parents (who also didn't hold their representatives accountable).
This is a good mantra "If the regular system is to slow and corrupt, FIX THAT, don't make shortcuts." --- but you should camp out in front of your congressman and senator if you want it taken seriously. Otherwise, you're largely preaching to the choir.
U.S. has its own definition
Yeah, but guess where that came from? It's not god-given; rather, it's derived from what the people who already came earlier believed in.
Why should the old guard be allowed to dictate what the new guard should do, simply by virtue of their ancestors (not even themselves, just their ancestors!) having arrived earlier?
Why should the old guard be allowed to dictate what the new guard should do, simply by virtue of their ancestors (not even themselves, just their ancestors!) having arrived earlier?
Because the original definition is objectively better.
EU citizen working in the Silicon Valley. If you really want more details, it's all on my homepage (resume, vacation pictures and all).
The problem is the H1B system. Because it costs so much money in legal fees to hire an immigrant, you end up with corrupt organizations who exploit this "debt". If a skilled immigrant can get a job that that meets a minimum salary, they should be easy to hire. Simple as that. The way I look at it: I can compete with an immigrant who is able to demand top dollar for his skills here. I can't compete with an immigrant who's locked out of the job market and being paid like an indentured servant. We should be importing the best and brightest into this country so they can earn top dollar here, pay taxes here, start businesses here, etc.
Not one joke about Middlesex? Apparently no one RTFA...