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Supreme Court To Consider First Sale of Imports

Animaether passes along a legal tale that "doesn't involve the kind of cutting-edge issues that copyright lawyers usually grapple with in the digital age [and] sounds like the kind of lawsuit that should have been resolved 200 years ago," yet still "is very much a product of the Internet-driven global economy." "Can copyright owners assert rights over imported goods that have already been sold once? That is the issue before the Supreme Court in Costco Wholesale Corp v. Omega, S.A. (backstory here). What's at stake is the ability of resellers to offer legitimate, non-pirated versions of copyrighted goods, manufactured in foreign nations, to US consumers at prices that undercut those charged by the copyright holders."

259 comments

  1. Free market, right? by rolfwind · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What's good for the goose must be good for the gander, no?

    1. Re:Free market, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The only free market in America is hookers and blow. Just kidding, there is no free market in America.

    2. Re:Free market, right? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Of course not. When a corporation needs cheap labor/materials/lax laws/no taxes, then "Free Trade" is what makes the world go round.

      If you wish to engage in a little arbitrage of your own, then "grey market" is about the most polite term. It is Vital to uphold Safety Standards and Preserve Market Stability, after all...

    3. Re:Free market, right? by countertrolling · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually you're right. Contraband is the perfect example, the epitome, of the free market. Totally unregulated.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    4. Re:Free market, right? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Quite the contrary. Black markets often suffer from relatively weak, corrupt, or inconsistent governance(gang warfare isn't going to find its way into the dictionary under "due process" any time soon); but they virtually always have nontrivial regulatory systems.

      They tend toward being somewhat decentralized, socially structured, and based on direct violence(rather than centralized, bureaucratic, and based on potential violence); but they are definitely there.

    5. Re:Free market, right? by countertrolling · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...but they virtually always have nontrivial regulatory systems.

      Then a free market truly is nothing more than a neo-liberal's dream. Because there will always be some third party attempting to skim something off the transaction, through tax, regulation, prohibition, etc

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    6. Re:Free market, right? by tunapez · · Score: 1

      I realize it's AC, but please, someone mod this +1 Funny, if not +5 Insightful.

      --
      Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
    7. Re:Free market, right? by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Free? Have you seen the prices on hookers and blow recently?

    8. Re:Free market, right? by NicknamesAreStupid · · Score: 1

      Freedom's just another word for nothing left to sue.

    9. Re:Free market, right? by bmwEnthusiast · · Score: 1

      and since i was 15 i've been paying the same prices...

    10. Re:Free market, right? by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Free market" is an oxymoron in the first place (when taken to the logical extreme of "totally unregulated", anyways). It's like asking what basketball would be like without any rules; it wouldn't be basketball. Without property rights, and contract enforcement, and currency, the forces of supply and demand still exist but can't develop into anything like the byzantine sophistication of Wall Street. So you can't just wish all the complexities away. This case is ultimately about a conflict of property rights - ownership of intellectual property vs ownership of the media holding copies of the intellectual property.

    11. Re:Free market, right? by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I disagree with your analysis. You claim that they tend towards being somewhat decentralized. On the contrary, I think they start out as decentralized "entrepreneurships" and then tend towards becoming centralized "organized crime".

      We call these centralized units "the Mob" or "cartels" or something.

      Without firsthand knowledge, I'd bet that Somalia's pirate business has consolidated in this fashion in the last few years as well. It's highly unlikely that each pirate vessel and crew act on their own without higher controlling authority.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    12. Re:Free market, right? by digitalunity · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is what bothers me most. Free trade is only good when corporations can take advantage of emerging economies. But when it comes to selling their wares in emerging economies for 5% of what they charge in the US or Europe, well that is just people being unfair.

      Perfect discrimination is the epitome of regulated trade. They can't have it both ways. Either free trade is good and we should embrace it, or it isn't and we should close the borders.

      Personally, I think a company should have zero control of a product after it's been sold, other than to prevent said consumer from reproducing copyrighted portions of that product. This simple rule would render mod chips legal across board(at least for those designed to remove region coding, as opposed to those that allow you to use CDR media), as well as the used market for all games, even those with online content.

      I also think we need a national law spelling out what software publishers may not put in a EULA. Too bad the legislators would name it something like "Consumer Rights Enforcement Act" and it would be 100% pro-corporations.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    13. Re:Free market, right? by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      you're close, but CREA sounds like a 'terrorist state' and is too consumer oriented.

      I propose RECA...

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    14. Re:Free market, right? by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

      (Note: armchair economist)

      It'd be unregulated within the scope of its own market-- the black market. In the scope of the broader economy, I'd say that contraband is maximally regulated-- it's hard to get any more regulated than "you shall not trade in this, and if you do, we'll toss you in the slammer".

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    15. Re:Free market, right? by Jenming · · Score: 1

      3 hookers and blow

      --
      Morpheus, God of Dreams.
    16. Re:Free market, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "Free market" is an oxymoron in the first place (when taken to the logical extreme of "totally unregulated", anyways).

      Except that extreme is not logical given an understanding of the free market as described by Adam Smith.

      Without property rights, and contract enforcement, and currency, the forces of supply and demand still exist but can't develop into anything like the byzantine sophistication of Wall Street.

      Those things are fundamental pre-conditions of a free market as described by Smith. Your argument against the free market is a straw man, because you are arguing against a construct of your own imagination ("free market" as totally unregulated without even property rights or contract enforcement) when no free market economist has ever actually proposed such a thing.

    17. Re:Free market, right? by Darinbob · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's why the "free market" as it is often described is a myth, akin to the point mass used when teaching physics. It's a nice theoretical concept, but it doesn't reflect reality very well.

    18. Re:Free market, right? by ignavus · · Score: 1

      In other words ...

      When I say "free market", I mean "free for me", not "free for you".

      --
      I am anarch of all I survey.
    19. Re:Free market, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I don't think you understand what the free market is. A free market it not a scenario where I can do whatever I want and take whatever I want from anyone. A free market, taken to its extreme, is not 'totally unregulated.' That's called chaos.

      A free market is where two people willingly exchange things with each other - whether it be a service, a product, time, money, etc.

      A free market requires property rights, or else you can't promise to give something to someone for their money.
      A free market requires contract enforcement, otherwise an agreement to trade is meaningless.
      While a free market does not require currency (bartering can be used), it makes things much easier.
      And all of these require the rule of law that is enforced by government.

      A free market is not asking what basketball would be without any rules. A free market would be asking what basketball would be like if anytime people wanted to play, they could agree on their own 'house rules' at the beginning of the game. You still need a referee, and you still need rules, but so long as your team and the other team agree that a basket from the half court line counts as 4 points, it's ok. That's the free market.

    20. Re:Free market, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To the best of our knowledge, the electron, and every other lepton, is a point particle.

    21. Re:Free market, right? by Alain+Williams · · Score: 1

      This is what bothers me most. Free trade is only good when corporations can take advantage of emerging economies. But when it comes to selling their wares in emerging economies for 5% of what they charge in the US or Europe, well that is just people being unfair.

      I would be quite happy for a corporation to charge ''UK prices'' if the goods were made in the UK using UK labour paid a fair UK wage. What I cannot accept is paying ''UK prices'' on goods made using cheap labour in other countries, when they sell the same goods as cheaper prices in other countries.

      Globalisation should cut both ways. Either: they can transport goods around the world, and so can I; or neither of us can.

    22. Re:Free market, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually in the UK prices have fallen over the last 25 years from £16-20 1/4 to about £50 an oz. taking a rough guess the actual value of that money is about half what it was so a fall of £160 - £50 in real terms.

      The cost of a pint has roughly doubled in that time but probably costs about the same as it ever did in real terms.
      thats surprising as i thought it would be more.

      however I now live in ireland where beer is twice the uk price.

    23. Re:Free market, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the 1915 called, they want their particle system back.

    24. Re:Free market, right? by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      No, he's right. That's the Standard Model, which is 1975's particle system.

    25. Re:Free market, right? by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      (Note: armchair economist)

      It'd be unregulated within the scope of its own market-- the black market. In the scope of the broader economy, I'd say that contraband is maximally regulated-- it's hard to get any more regulated than "you shall not trade in this, and if you do, we'll toss you in the slammer".

      Even in the scope of it's own market it's quite heavy regulated perhaps more so. There are various social and gang pressures regulating a dealers decisions up to the point of "don't trade his or we'll shoot you".

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    26. Re:Free market, right? by VJ42 · · Score: 1

      They tend toward being somewhat decentralized.

      Not quite, they are franchised. If you read "Freakanomics" you'll read about the only real time an economist has had access to the inner workings of a drug gang, and eventually even it's books. His opinion? If you were to draw an organization chart of a drug gang, it would look almost exactly like McDonalds. It's a good read, I would recommend the book to anyone.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    27. Re:Free market, right? by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      The more surprising part:
      The guys selling crack on the street corner make slightly less per hour than the burger flippers at McDonalds.

      Oh and they're far far far more likely to get killed on the job, their chances of death per year are a lot worse than soldiers serving in Iraq.

    28. Re:Free market, right? by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      On the black market it's "don't trade this on our turf or we'll kill you"
      or "Don't go buying from him or we'll kill you"

    29. Re:Free market, right? by jecblackpepper · · Score: 1

      In the book, it describes that drug dealers chances of death per year are worse than death row inmates! So someone who has been sentenced to death has more chance of surviving the year than a drug dealer.

    30. Re:Free market, right? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      "Free market" is an oxymoron in the first place (when taken to the logical extreme of "totally unregulated", anyways).

      You mean, when taken to a contradictory logical fallacy. There's no market without "property rights, contract enforcement, and currency." It's all the stuff that can go down within a system made up of those things that determine whether the market (the situation created by having those above things) is free or not. If it just has those three things, it's a free market. Add anything else, and it isn't. If we eliminated copyright, patents, trademarks, subsidies, and tariffs (aside, perhaps, from simple taxes as necessary to maintain the existence of the market, levied equally on all transactions, that means no tax breaks for resellers) then we would have a free market. We would also have chaos, but that's another discussion.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    31. Re:Free market, right? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The guys selling crack on the street corner make slightly less per hour than the burger flippers at McDonalds.

      Oh and they're far far far more likely to get killed on the job, their chances of death per year are a lot worse than soldiers serving in Iraq.

      Amusingly (to me) this is covered in Grand Theft Auto IV: The Ballad of Gay Tony. Two of the main character's associates (I won't call him the protagonist, but anyway) are dealers. He points out that you make more at "Burger Shot" and is reminded that one of his friends is a big idiot who might be allowed to wash dishes at a Burger Shot if he is lucky. Drug dealing's the only job he's qualified for. Now, even when that's not true, it's easy to feel trapped, and I would argue that the very system of society is designed to enhance those feelings.

      Also, I would add that fast food jobs are depressing. I've made french fries for a living before. That's a job that can really make you want to kill yourself. How does that figure into life expectancy?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    32. Re:Free market, right? by WNight · · Score: 1

      I also think we need a national law spelling out what software publishers may not put in a EULA.

      We have them. They say you didn't know about the terms (of the EULA) when you bought the product so they can't be binding. Of course some people (even judges - wtf?!) don't get this.

      One thing we need is a law making it a crime to knowingly represent something as a contract, or valid legal advice, when it is not. Making me click "I Accept" when it is clear that I would not accept, under false pretenses and duress, is clearly fraud.

      If you stole a $20 item and were jailed for six months you'd suffer hugely, perhaps into bankruptcy. I suggest we implement similar punishments for companies - either staggeringly large fines that would hit them the same as a fraud/theft sentence would hit you, or perhaps just a "jail term" where the company's assets were frozen and it shuttered for a period. Something to make breaking the law unprofitable.

  2. Why does this even need to be discussed? by slacker22 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Surely this should be a foregone conclusion

    1. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Free market is free market. Once you sell something, you should have zero authority to dictate where it is shipped to and resold (with the exception of munitions, of course). Oh, and we should be able to import prescription drugs at much lower prices from other countries too!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by tomkost · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, it is a foregone conclusion, but not in the way you probably are thinking. You see, the rights of corporations must be protected at all costs. They can not be restricted by silly concepts like the sovereignty of nations, fair use, personal property rights, or any other fundamental concept of our legal systems. Don't worry, the Supreme Court will help them achieve their profits at any cost. I sure hope I'm wrong, but let's watch and see.

    3. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by NewWorldDan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem is that Congress did a lousy job of writing section 602 of the copyright code. It's clear to me that the intent of the law is that this should apply to goods manufactured abroad without the consent of the copyright holder. It calls it a violation of the copyright holder's right to produce and distribute something. Except, of course, that the copyright holder has already exercised that right.

      Interestingly enough, if I read it correctly, this doesn't apply to people importing things for their own personal use. So downloading music from a jurisdiction that doesn't recognize US copyrights is completely legit, as long as you don't share it with anyone. :)

    4. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      You do realize that the reason other countries (ie Canada) have lower prices for prescription drugs is because of price controls, right? If you let people import from Canada you are essentially importing their price controls.

      Price Controls --> No Research --> No New Drugs

      The bulk of health research is conducted in the United States, and the bulk of that is funded by the private sector. Regulate the US Market and its bye bye medical research.

    5. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yea because the only reason that there is medical research is because the US Market is unregulated.

    6. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unless I'm mistaken this is at least a violation of the Berne treaty, you can't treat domestic and international copyrights from the signatories differently... maybe we should put them on some sort of copyright watchlist ;)

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      So why should the U.S. be burdened with expensive drug research? There's nothing about us that makes research on drugs special except that we give money away to companies that then charge us because they used our money to find a cure to our sickness. While I might not fault a "Third-world" country for not investing in research, surely a country like Canada has the resources to join in. This should make price controls impractical and actually aide Big Pharma.

    8. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by McGiraf · · Score: 1

      and the bulk of that is funded by the private sector tax returns on R&D

    9. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Oh, and we should be able to import prescription drugs at much lower prices from other countries too!

      That settles it then. Whatever about small fry like video game companies and DVD distributors, there is no way that the US Supreme Court is going to upset the gravy train of something so massive as the pharmaceutical industry. No imports for you!

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    10. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The GP is actually right. Pharmaceutical price controls in other countries are subsidized by higher prices in the US. If (e.g.) Canadian price controls were to be applied globally, the potential returns for R&D of new drugs would drop dramatically, to the point that many drugs currently in development would be abandoned and much potential new research would never get off the ground.

      This is the inconvenient truth that gets lost in the health care debate - one of the reasons that modern health care is so expensive is that all the cheap/easy medical advances are generations behind us. Modern advances are necessarily far more difficult and expensive to develop, and those costs must be borne by somebody if the research is to continue. At the same time, progressive medical advances have made it possible to add years to the end of many people's lives, and have made many previously fatal conditions survivable. Unfortunately, the older a person becomes, the more medical care he needs, and the more likely he is to develop a condition that is now survivable, but only at great expense.

      This is why any true health reform must draw a balance between providing treatment and managing costs. At some point, 87 year-old John Smith is going to have to accept that society cannot afford to spend $5 million on cancer treatment to extend his life by another 6 months. Try selling that to the voters, though.

    11. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Locke2005 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the drug companies couldn't make a profit selling the drugs at that price point in Canada, they wouldn't be selling the drugs in Canada. Ergo, they could still make a profit selling the drugs at that same price point and allowing them to be (re)imported into the US. I fail to see why ALL of the R&D costs should be amortized by soaking US citizens, while every other country gets a free ride.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    12. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Altus · · Score: 2, Informative

      This still doesn't justify the US paying crazy drug prices to subsidize the price controlled prices in other countries.

      Yes, medical research is expensive but that doesn't mean that we should pay for cheep drugs for Canadians. I'm also not totally convinced that applying the same rules here would actually cause the entire biotech industry to grind to a halt. It would certainly have an impact but the idea that drug companies would just close up all R&D forever is not very believable. Eventually they would have nothing left to sell at any price.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    13. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by conspirator57 · · Score: 1

      but the matter at hand is a dispute between two big companies... so... which big company wins?

      --
      "If still these truths be held to be
      Self evident."
      -Edna St. Vincent Millay
    14. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You think medical research is expensive? Check out what it costs to market a drug. Seriously. Drug companies spend far more marketing drugs than developing them.

    15. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Nonsense. There's plenty of pharmaceutical research going on in Canada.

      http://www.astrazeneca.ca/en/research/
      http://www.bmscanada.ca/bms/randd/pri/
      http://www.lib.uwo.ca/programs/companyinformationcanada/connlab.html

      There are lies, damned lies, and Fox News.

    16. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Dravik · · Score: 1, Informative

      They spend far more marketing a single drug than they spent developing that drug, how much is their marketing when compared to the research costs of the 7-8 drugs that never made it to market.

      --
      The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
    17. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by FrigBot · · Score: 1, Interesting

      And by coming up with new "diseases" to treat. Like Restless Legs Syndrome. What the fuck is that? Yes sometimes my legs feels restless. BUT YOU CAN CURE IT BY GETTING SOME FUCKING EXERCISE! People just want to be super lazy and just sit around on the couch, taking whatever drug they need out of the toolbox to "cure" whatever ails them at that moment. I have an uncle like that. What do you got? Mildly constipated? Try one of the 3 treatments he has in his medicine cabinet for that. Or maybe it's a slight headache? Try this, or this, or this...

      Meanwhile, the drug companies are focussing on long-term diseases, like depression, because they can then hook you on their drug for life. This is why there are few new anti-biotics released, according to a doctor friend I have.

    18. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Dravik · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      They can cover production costs of drugs where the development costs have already been recouped. There is a reason that most drugs come to market in Canada five or more years after the US. Yes it would be great if all those other countries would remove their price controls and pay their fair share. Since they aren't going to do that, we have to cover the development costs or they won't be developed. If you want to see what happens when everybody has price controls, look at the vaccine market. There are only three companies that make flu vaccine. There have been virtually no advances in production in the last 20 years.

      --
      The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
    19. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Interestingly enough, if I read it correctly, this doesn't apply to people importing things for their own personal use. So downloading music from a jurisdiction that doesn't recognize US copyrights is completely legit, as long as you don't share it with anyone. :)

      Which is why it is explicitly legal to go to Russia, download everything allofmp3 has, then fly back with a hard drive full of songs. And, depending on where the "sale" took place, it's perfectly legal for someone to buy that song in Russia and have it delivered electronically elsewhere as well. I always thought allofmp3 was perfectly legal, and it was shut down because Russia didn't want political pressure from the US to change its laws to make it illegal. The fact that not a single successful case was ever levied against it seems to support my opinion.

    20. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Myopic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Next time don't ask a rhetorical question unless you already know that the answer is not devastating to your argument.

      Drug company advertising budgets are greater than drug company research budgets, both in total.

    21. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 2

      There wasn't even an argument in the post you replied to, just a question. Maybe you oughta settle down there, sparky.

    22. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Because the drug manufacturers know today that their profits come from the US and everyone else can pay just cost plus a little margin. Which is stupid.

      What needs to happen is for the drug companies to charge pretty much the same price everywhere. Which would mean something like a 400% increase outside the US and a 1000% decrease inside the US.

      Small problem with that plan is that everyone outside the US would just stop buying from US drug companies. The price in the US would go back to the current level and everyone outside the US would continue paying their cheap prices for stuff made by government-subsidised drug companies.

    23. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Mister_Stoopid · · Score: 1

      Ah, I see you're not a native speaker of American English. In this context, "big company" means "company with a big lobbying budget". I think the tag team of big pharma + copyright cartels beats Costco in that regard.

    24. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by bnenning · · Score: 1

      At the same time, progressive medical advances have made it possible to add years to the end of many people's lives, and have made many previously fatal conditions survivable. Unfortunately, the older a person becomes, the more medical care he needs, and the more likely he is to develop a condition that is now survivable, but only at great expense.

      Yes. This is one reason why we need to take a shot at curing aging.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    25. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Cryacin · · Score: 1

      There are lies, damned lies, and Fox News.

      I believe that's a statement brought to us by the Redundancy department of Redundancy.

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    26. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Myopic · · Score: 1

      You are right. I over-reacted, a little bit. I disagree with the flamebait mod you got.

    27. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Un+quebecois · · Score: 0

      I don't think you pay for the R&D cost (which is about 20% here in Canada) It's probably the publicity. I've been in the US a couple of time and was amaze at how much drug publicity you have on TV. We don't have that here. Also the kickback to the doctor aren't allowed here also.

    28. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by currently_awake · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've seen no evidence to support this myth. Many (most) drugs in use were developed elsewhere (not subsidized). Many countries (like canada) subsidize useful medical research directly instead of letting drug companies fund viagra and such.

    29. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Sprouticus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, no those costs do NOT have to be norne by anyone.

      The fact is you have big pharma releasing verion 223 XL of the exact same drug or something that works 3% better because the want to maintain market dominance and get around patent limits.

      If we did not subsidize the R&D so damn much then maybe, just maybe, we would get the drugs we need instead of the same drug over and over again.

    30. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Try selling that to the voters, though.

      It's already been sold to voters - that's how the system works today.

      The trick is convincing them of that. ;)

    31. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Also the kickback to the doctor aren't allowed here also. I work for a medical device company. I assure you that kickbacks to the doctor are expressly forbidden in the US. In fact, even buying a doctor a really expensive meal is considered an ethics violation.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    32. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your uncle sounds polite. It'd be rude not to offer something to a family member who complains of constipation or a headache.

      YOU: Hey guys! I'm mildy constipated!
      UNCLE: Oh really? I have some pink stuff you can take.
      YOU: You asshole! Fucking tool of Big Pharma!

    33. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free market is free market.

      You misunderstood Free Market(TM).

      It's not about the unrestricted, free trade of goods for everyone. It's merely about the free trade for corporations, unrestricted by governments. Those corporations are still free to impose as many restrictions as they like.

      That's why people call for small governments; so they can be the ones to impose rules.

    34. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Your entire argument falls flat the minute someone points out that Pharma companies spend more on marketing than R&D and that it is the government, not Pharma which funds most research.

      Please try again.

    35. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      You know what else is expressly forbidden? Lying about what your drug is approved by the FDA for. Not just marketing off-label uses (also illegal), but flat out lying about what is on-label. But Pfizer still did that, and got away with it even after they were caught.

      You really think they don't offer kickbacks too?

    36. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      In the US, Uncle Sam pays for a lot of the expensive part of getting a drug to the market. Even Drugs completely developed by foreign companies and governments are still 3-5x more expensive than in any other country, they are not "making" up for R&D cost then now are they.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    37. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      We're talking about copyrights, not drugs here.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    38. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      What about "beta testing" agreements that supply doctors with drugs for a low price and come with a few other rules attached?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    39. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Oh Dear;

      Time to drag out the Heinlein again....

      "There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute or common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back."

      from his first published story "Lifeline" (1939) http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein

    40. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      I'm not familiar with that case, but I assume they would have at least been forced to sign a consent agreement with the FDA and come under increased scrutiny for at least 3 years. Yes, the problem with allowing firms to become "too big to fail" applies here to -- is it really in the best interest of all people to see Pfizer bankrupt and out of business? The Viagra users alone would be rioting in the streets about that one!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    41. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by Simetrical · · Score: 1

      Unless I'm mistaken this is at least a violation of the Berne treaty, you can't treat domestic and international copyrights from the signatories differently... maybe we should put them on some sort of copyright watchlist ;)

      You can't treat works differently based on the nationality of their author:

      Protection in the country of origin is governed by domestic law. However, when the author is not a national of the country of origin of the work for which he is protected under this Convention, he shall enjoy in that country the same rights as national authors. (Source: Article 5(3))

      But this is discrimination based on the intended market of the work, which is entirely different. A foreign company would have just as much right as a domestic one to prohibit some of its goods from being resold in America, so this is allowed by the Berne Convention.

      --
      MediaWiki developer, Total War Center sysadmin
    42. Re:Why does this even need to be discussed? by jimnorcal · · Score: 1

      Although I don't know this for sure, but it would appear to me that pharmaceutical companies are wealthy beyond comprehension. This would leave me to believe that their profit margins are so great that the productions of the drugs (including R&D) must be very inexpensive. Sure, R&D still costs money but compared to the money they make on the drugs, the cost of R&D would appear to be insignificant. That being the case, I bet that if all the numbers were made public (total cost of R&D, cost of raw materials to make each pill/oz/mg of drug, and price at which the pill/oz/mg is sold at, I think the real picture would become clear. I believe that the cost of drugs could be dropped 50% or more and still have plenty of money left over to be well into the green and put money into everyone's pockets (shareholders, R&D researchers, lazy worthless whiny executives, everything/one else). Because there would still be a profit and still be giving doctors jobs making the same amount of money, R&D would continue anyway. Sure, the executives and shareholders wouldn't be robbing the sick blind as much and would probably whine about it, but too bad. They'd still be making a worth-while profit.

      Oh, and let's not forget that nearly all of the new drugs produced today are mostly ineffective or have such severe side effects compared to the value they give that it is not worth it to take the drug. Also, these new ineffective drugs cost so much money that it doesn't really make sense to buy and use them. It would seem that excellence in R&D ceased some decades ago and that is why we're seeing so many stories now a days about drugs from 20/30/50 years ago are still just as effective now, if not more so, than new drugs created today which cost 10 to 100 times the cost of the old drugs.

      In the end, I believe that a federal controlled system would not stop progress, only stop the super rich from getting more super rich and allow the average and poor Joes/Janes out there to be able to afford drugs and stay alive longer while potentially living a happier life due to better (affordable) healthcare. Perhaps other countries know this. I'm sure the US does too but as long as we allow corporations to buy our politicians (especially now after the recent supreme court ruling), we'll never be able to have drugs which everyone can afford.

  3. Copyright weirdness by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, this was pretty clear 200 years ago: Property was real and tangible. Copyright existed to protect the authors of works from publishers and printing presses using their work without paying for it. Fast forward 200 years and now we have copyright being applied to something that's intangible, can be copied for effectively zero cost, and has been hob-cobbled together to encompass intangible things like phrases, lines of code, even the "likeness" or "appearance" of something is not copyrightable. Given this vast expansion of the definition of copyright (for better or for worse, depending on who you ask), of course there's going to come a day when the tangible thing -- a legitimate CD purchased through legitimate channels could be declared illegal because it's being used incorrectly.

    Copyright no longer covers just possession of a thing -- it's now been expanded to include the use of a thing as well, and that latter definition is what's causing most of the problems.

     

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Copyright weirdness by rubycodez · · Score: 2, Informative

      wrong, copyright 200 years ago applied to the information, the data, in a book. You could in 1790 copy a book by hand, sell the copy you made,and be in violation of copyright law.

    2. Re:Copyright weirdness by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's even nastier than that, in some cases, because some "real and tangible" property is now complex enough to enforce(against all but extremely sophisticated individuals) its own rules about use.

      CSS is pitifully weak; but it was perhaps the first demonstration of this concept that gained huge market traction. Thanks to CSS licensing requirements, adding technologically enforced region coding became trivial.

      As the cost of computing power continues to fall, and the number of devices that have embedded firmware and/or unique serial numbers continues to increase, there is virtually no area of "real property" over which the DMCA and copyright law will not eventually exert de facto control.

    3. Re:Copyright weirdness by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Informative

      wrong, copyright 200 years ago applied to the information, the data, in a book. You could in 1790 copy a book by hand, sell the copy you made,and be in violation of copyright law.

      Citation needed! And I'll provide. You want the Copyright Act of 1790, which was created to "securing authors the 'sole right and liberty of printing, reprinting, publishing and vending' the copies of their 'maps, charts, and books' for a term of 14 years, with the right to renew for one additional 14 year term should the copyright holder still be alive."

      So you could make a handwritten copy for personal use and not be in violation of copyright law. You could also re-sell anything protected by copyright law that you lawfully purchased without any strings. Neither is true today, which is what this case is all about.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    4. Re:Copyright weirdness by ais523 · · Score: 1

      Wow, 14 plus another 14 is the sanest time limit for copyright law I've heard mentioned in a while (should be plenty of time to make money on whatever you've done...) Also, your sig, despite being a quote from an entirely different context, seems to describe copyright law pretty accurately. (I misread it as being part of your comment to start with...)

      --
      (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
    5. Re:Copyright weirdness by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > Neither is true today, which is what this case is all about.

      Nope, that is exactly what this case is about. You can't go to some third world pesthole, print up a bunch of books and then import them into the US. The rights holder of course can outsource the printing. Every book/CD/DVD/etc offered for sale in the US must have a chain of authority tracable to the author, and only through US connections. Some of the newer treaties get a little more complex but the idea is still the same as a practical matter. You aren't allowed to find the country with the lowest royalty rates, buy a container or two there and bring them to the 1st world and expect to be allowed to sell them.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    6. Re:Copyright weirdness by girlintraining · · Score: 0

      You can't go to some third world pesthole, print up a bunch of books and then import them into the US. The rights holder of course can outsource the printing

      200 years ago, you could. copyright only applied to tangible property produced by a US citizen domestically.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    7. Re:Copyright weirdness by BKX · · Score: 1

      You must speak a different language than the rest of us. A handwritten copy would most certainly qualify as "reprinting". Remember that the spirit (intent) of the law is often as important as the actual wording. Take the word "vending" in that excerpt. At first you may think that only copyright holders could sell their own works (or at least control the sale thereof) and that second-hand sales would be prohibited. But you'd be wrong. The doctrine of first sale had existed in commonlaw for many, many years before then and would have colored this law to refer only to the first sale of the work to wholesalers.

    8. Re:Copyright weirdness by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      not so, both still true today but for "exceptions", this court case is about an exception to the general rule, which include imported foreign first sale.

      You can make a handwritten copy or photocopy today, as long as for legal use: Libraries have copy machines for that purpose. Try to sell that copy and you're in trouble

    9. Re:Copyright weirdness by aztektum · · Score: 0, Troll

      You could also re-sell anything protected by copyright law that you lawfully purchased without any strings. Neither is true today...

      If that is so, how come I was able to resell some books to a used book dealer a few weeks ago? And every time I go out I see one or two stores that deal solely in second hand console games, dvds and audio cds.

      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    10. Re:Copyright weirdness by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      How is his statement wrong? You're not even contradicting it. You're talking about copying and selling something, which is exactly what copyright is about: the right to copy.

      What this case about isn't copying at all: it's about buying a legitimate item from the publisher (through its distributor and retailer), then taking it somewhere else and reselling it as second-hand. Normally, publishers don't complain too loudly about this, because there's no profit in buying a CD at Wal-Mart and then driving to your local used CD store and selling it there. However, with global travel, there is profit in buying a perfectly legitimate DVD in China (not one of the counterfeit ones), flying home to the USA, and selling it on Ebay there, since the publisher sets wildly different prices in the two regions.

      Basically, the copyright cartel wants to redefine copyright to overturn the right of first sale, which has existed for centuries.

      In 1790, if someone was stupid enough to sell a book for 25 cents in Philadelphia and 10 cents in Atlanta, they wouldn't have been able to bring any real legal action against someone who bought up all the books in Atlanta and resold them in Philly for 15 cents; it would have been thrown out of court right away.

    11. Re:Copyright weirdness by selven · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure the first sale doctrine forbids using legal tricks (like slapping a license agreement onto a book) to prevent resale of a copyrighted work. Not much of a stretch to extend that to technological protections.

    12. Re:Copyright weirdness by cgenman · · Score: 1

      Why not? Say that virgin records produces 2 batches of records. They're both produced side-by-side in the same factory, with the same proper authorization from the same people. Batch 1 is sold in the US for 15 dollars a copy. Batch 2 is sold in Brazil for 5 dollars a copy.

      The chain of authority is completely traceable, and perfectly clean. The only difference is whether or not virgin records earmarked a particular piece for sale in one country or another. And that falls to the interpretation of the law, as to whether or not it is illegal to import a legitimately purchased copyrighted work for non-personal use.

      http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode17/usc_sec_17_00000602----000-.html

      Personally I love how the law says it is illegal, then that it isn't, then that if it is isn't legal, it's illegal. I'm sure a lawyer can point to a specific ruling on this point.

    13. Re:Copyright weirdness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      um.. _copy_ right has no bearing on ownership, merely on copying. see, the hint's right there in the name.

    14. Re:Copyright weirdness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The negation of "everything is resellable" is not "nothing is resellable." The fact that there exists something resellable does not mean that everything is resellable.

    15. Re:Copyright weirdness by Intron · · Score: 1

      What this case about isn't copying at all: it's about buying a legitimate item from the publisher (through its distributor and retailer), then taking it somewhere else and reselling it as second-hand.

      Not true. If Costco was calling the watches second-hand I don't think Omega would have a problem with it. They're selling brand new watches. So the question is: Does copyright law allow control of sale and distribution? (yes) and is Costco violating that? (hmmm)

      Maybe Costco should claim that all watches are second-hand (also hour and minute-hand).

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    16. Re:Copyright weirdness by aztektum · · Score: 1

      I took her statement thusly: At one time you could re-sell anything that you legally obtained even if copyrighted, but today you cannot sell *anything* that is copyrighted even if legally obtained. Since books, DVDs, etc are copyrighted but you can re-sell them, her statement, the way it written seems rather inaccurate to me.

      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    17. Re:Copyright weirdness by Altus · · Score: 1

      I believe this is about buying books in a third world pesthole from the original publisher, but at a much lower cost than what they sell them for in the US and then shipping those books back to the US for sale to customers.

      It isn't about illegal copies (black market) it is about buying from one market and shipping to another (gray market).

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    18. Re:Copyright weirdness by conspirator57 · · Score: 1

      keep in mind that this was law in a time where it took over a year for books to get shipped from one side of the globe to the other. if we had today's law in context of 1790's distribution network latency, copyright would last like 500 years after the death of the author rather than the 70 years after the death of the author as the statute says.

      --
      "If still these truths be held to be
      Self evident."
      -Edna St. Vincent Millay
    19. Re:Copyright weirdness by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      You could also re-sell anything protected by copyright law that you lawfully purchased without any strings. Neither is true today...

      If that is so, how come I was able to resell some books to a used book dealer a few weeks ago? And every time I go out I see one or two stores that deal solely in second hand console games, dvds and audio cds.

      Because you are ignoring the word "anything" in the text you quoted. You can do that with books you bought in the U.S., yes. But try going to South Africa, lawfully purchasing a few thousand books (that were printed legally and sold at the MSRP with the author and publisher receiving their checks), and then importing those books into the U.S. (paying whatever customs fees are required).

      After you've paid the author, paid the publisher, paid the seller, paid the transporter, and paid both governments, the author/publisher/government? come back and say you can't import those books at all, to hell with First Sale.

      SCOTUS will decide the "government?" part of the above.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    20. Re:Copyright weirdness by Fluffeh · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can't go to some third world pesthole, print up a bunch of books and then import them into the US.

      Read the backstory properly. You are way off the mark here. What this is about is basically this (Using roughly your example):

      CompanyA prints books. They do so in the US and also in thirdWorldPesthole.
      CompanyB sells books in the US bought from CompanyA.
      CompanyB finds CompanyC that buys the books from CompanyA that are printed in thirdWorldPesthole, and CompanyB buys these books from CompanyC and also sells them in the US.

      Becuase CompanyA sells the books much cheaper in thirdWorldPesthole, CompanyA now takes CompanyB to court because it says it controls the product US, no matter where it came from - even a legal sale such as this.
      This is where CompanyB (the seller) argues this with first sale doctrine. It bought the books legally. It has the legal right to do what it wants with them - such as selling them cheaper than the US printed books sell for.

      Thanks for flying Fluffeh airways, always happy to take you back on course with the thread.

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    21. Re:Copyright weirdness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every book/CD/DVD/etc offered for sale in the US must have a chain of authority tracable to the author, and only through US connections.

      Citation please

    22. Re:Copyright weirdness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, a lot has changed in 200 years, hasn't it?

    23. Re:Copyright weirdness by Kenoli · · Score: 1

      Citation needed! And I'll provide. You want the Copyright Act of 1790, which was created to "securing authors the 'sole right and liberty of printing, reprinting, publishing and vending' the copies of their 'maps, charts, and books' for a term of 14 years, with the right to renew for one additional 14 year term should the copyright holder still be alive."

      So you could make a handwritten copy for personal use and not be in violation of copyright law. You could also re-sell anything protected by copyright law that you lawfully purchased without any strings. Neither is true today, which is what this case is all about.

      Citation not needed. The basic idea of copyright is practically common sense: You can't make copies of someone else's works and sell them.
      Which is what you essentially restarted, plus some other unrelated stuff.

    24. Re:Copyright weirdness by Tiger4 · · Score: 1

      The cost of copying, "can be copied for effectively zero cost," is irrelevant. Worse, it muddles the debate by putting ease of piracy on par with the rights of the author.

      If the author has a legal right to allow or prevent copying, how does that right legitimately evaporate in the face of a low cost copying option?

      In what way is it ever equitable to allow violation of the author's copyright because it is cheap and easy to do so, but make copyright enforceable when the copier endures expense and difficulty?

      Rights and Cost are simply not equivalent arguments. Cost and ease obviously do come into play with respect to enforceability, but not to the Right itself.

      --
      Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
    25. Re:Copyright weirdness by cynyr · · Score: 1

      but that not what they did, they went elsewhere and bought a bunch of legit watches legitimately and shipped them back to the US for sale and profit. I'm at a loss to explain what is wrong with the situation other than the manufacturer was hoping to get away with gouging the US market.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    26. Re:Copyright weirdness by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      The situation isn't entirely bleak(see Lexmark vs. Static Control); but I don't think that there is much cause for optimism about that "not much of a stretch" actually being made.

      As you say, you usually can't get around first sale just by doing something trivial like printing a scary license agreement on the back cover of a book. The buyer can still resell the book, not too much you can do about it. However, objects without clear physical manifestation, which are becoming more common, don't have that defense. If you buy a book through your Kindle(or an app on your iPod, or some downloadable content, or a Steam game...), you cannot transfer it to somebody else(for free or for a consideration of any kind) without either hacking the system(at which point you would draw fire from the DMCA) or with Amazon's consent(if they added a "sell this book" button to the program). Because circumvention is hard for an average person of no special technical skill(and, even for the skilled, attacking closed appliances isn't getting any easier), code is de facto law. If the system won't let you, you can't. Because of the DMCA and its ilk, code is, in many cases, actual law.

      Aside from purely digital items, the other main threat is physical items with substantial digital logic embedded in them. This is because, while first sale protects your right to sell something, it has not(historically) faced the case of property that can simply refuse to function if resold, or otherwise used against the manufacturer's wishes.

    27. Re:Copyright weirdness by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      When the fuck did copyright law start applying to physical, as opposed to "creative", goods?

    28. Re:Copyright weirdness by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Every book/CD/DVD/etc offered for sale in the US must have a chain of authority tracable to the author

      OK, sure!

      and only through US connections

      Wait, what?

      BTW, this goes beyond just bootlegs ("You can't go to some third world pesthole, print up a bunch of books and then import them into the US."), there's also stuff like the British editions of Harry Potter novels and such floating around out there that any reasonably sane person would expect to be "legal" yet were obviously not sourced "only through US connections".

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    29. Re:Copyright weirdness by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      I think you've got that backwards. I can transfer a book across the world in 30 seconds. At the GP's supposed 1y distribution rate in 1790, my copyright would last a grand total of 30s * 28 or 14 minutes.

      If you contend that patents on physical devices are good, and are limited to 22 years, then that's what copyright should be limited to, as written works are cheaper to make and distribute than physical goods.

    30. Re:Copyright weirdness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're on to something here. But we'd need a new term, since "Gray Market" sounds fishy, for used-but-never-opened. Something like "Legally Second Hand Imported Wink-Wink Nudge-Nudge". This does not mean the seller sells "as-is", it can be backed up by warranty from the seller.

      I propose "Global Market Second Hand".

      Once exact terminology has been settled and agreed on, this needs to become common use so the term can't be trademarked or copyrighted, and henceforth be used for all these type of imported "new" goods. This allows the corner used goods store to label their wares similarly, but it's up to you to decide what it means when CostCo et al. use this specific term, i.e. you get a brand new product, but for legal reasons is labeled used.

    31. Re:Copyright weirdness by dryeo · · Score: 1

      I've got a book here , a Terry Prachet published in the UK and sold here in Canada which has a licencing agreement on the copyright page.
      Basically you can't resell the book without its original cover. I could imagine a judge agreeing to this.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    32. Re:Copyright weirdness by vovin · · Score: 1

      Because return of the cover is used as 'proof of no sale' which allows the retailer to claim the publisher and get credit against further purchases from said publisher.

    33. Re:Copyright weirdness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Certainly a judge might agree to it . . . but in the US, where there's explicit, long-established, binding Supreme Court precedent to the contrary, he'd get reversed so fast and so hard it would cause the whole planet to wobble.

      Unlike the UK/EU as a whole, the US also doesn't require that copyright holders get paid when their works are lent or rented, or (in general) allow them to ban such lending or renting.

    34. Re:Copyright weirdness by conspirator57 · · Score: 1

      oh i agree with your latter point. i was just pointing out that the effective duration of copyright protection has grown in two directions. First, it has lengthened. Second, the time to market has shrunk dramatically. you perceive that with a 1 yr time to market that causality prevents people from making copies of a book they haven't got yet and won't have for another year.

      --
      "If still these truths be held to be
      Self evident."
      -Edna St. Vincent Millay
    35. Re:Copyright weirdness by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      This is because, while first sale protects your right to sell something, it has not(historically) faced the case of property that can simply refuse to function if resold, or otherwise used against the manufacturer's wishes.

      I'm not sure that it should. iTunes clearly sells you music as a service. If you want to buy it as a product, you know where to go.

      I'm pretty sure (But IANAL, let alone a law theorist) that First Sale law shouldn't cover digital downloads. Customers can shop around and pick digital downloads which allow resale. If none such exist, and they care about resale, they should purchase the work via a physical means. Some publishers are giving away eBooks when you buy the dead tree edition; that's an excellent way to handle this issue in the mean time.

      I don't buy stuff digitally for the most part specifically for this reason. I did pay for one of the GTA IV expansions (the first one) because it wasn't out on disc yet and I was impatient. It was worth twenty bucks to me to play the game right away. Fast-forward to months later, when I recently bought the game along with the other expansion for $30 used on a disc. It was only $10 more than buying the second episode and I get resale rights, not to mention that I can play the game on another console without associating my gamertag with it. And as long as there are many people in the world with money for media and a shitty internet connection, media will be offered physically, because people will still be buying it that way.

      I argue that even a non-free market can make this decision. After all, it's not between having this content, and having no content. There's other, non-commercial content out there, and if more people consume it, there will be even more of it, and less of the other stuff. There's also commercial content which is provided under terms which allow open redistribution. There's all kinds of material. Go forth and consume that which you would like to see more of.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  4. Global economy baby ! by aepervius · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You decide to outsource your programmer in bengladore, your sale rep in ireland, your telephonic support in china ? Welllll we decide to buy our game from import from the global market. Too bad they undercut your local monopoly price. Global market baby. You outsource our job, we outsource our buying. Fair is fair.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:Global economy baby ! by Killer+Orca · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And here is the answer people, Costco found a way to keep their prices low and still buy products legitimately; but the manufacturer cries foul because of copyright of all things? No, no, It was sold to a U.S. distributor, don't act like you didn't know it wasn't going to be sold in the U.S. and claim First Sale doctrine violation.

    2. Re:Global economy baby ! by Dunx · · Score: 1

      Hence all that lovely region coding - ensuring geographic market segmentation so there will not be a single global market.

      I often wonder if Philips and the other CD standard signatories regret not inserting region coding into that first digital media standard.

      --
      Dunx
      Converting caffeine into code since 1982
    3. Re:Global economy baby ! by characterZer0 · · Score: 1

      Fair is not necessarily legal.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    4. Re:Global economy baby ! by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Imagine: Omega watches which sync up with the radio signal from an atomic clock, but refuse to configure themselves for any timezones other than those for which it was authorized for sale.

      Of course, they'd lose the lucrative international traveler market. Or they'll have temporary time zone support, but if you stay too long in a foreign timezone it will reset or disable itself.

      And then comes the question: what if I, as an (American) international traveler, buy one of their manufactured-in-Switzerland watches cheaply in an authorized country, travel back to the US, and then decide I don't like it (or need the money) and want to sell the watch on eBay? Apparently they want to bar me from selling the watch because it wasn't authorized for sale in the US.

      Will they have their goons patrolling the US looking for people wearing imported watches and harass them to show their receipts showing they personally purchased the watch overseas or give up who sold them the watch under threat of prosecution? "Product's papers, please?"

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    5. Re:Global economy baby ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Legal is not necessarily Fair.

    6. Re:Global economy baby ! by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      And outsource environmental and labour law to prohibit unfair competition. /ducks

    7. Re:Global economy baby ! by quirli_joe · · Score: 1

      Imagine: Omega watches which sync up with the radio signal from an atomic clock, but refuse to configure themselves for any timezones other than those for which it was authorized for sale....

      Thank god Omega produces only mechanical watches... buy only 100% DRM-free, baby ;-D

    8. Re:Global economy baby ! by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

      And when those who pushed for the global economy and free trade have the cash with which to bribe-- sorry, <sarcasmquotes>influence through the lobbying process</sarcasmquotes>-- legislators, set up think tanks with which to train pro-business lawyers who then get appointed to federal benches and later the SCOTUS (see: Federalist Society et al), and also (thanks to Citizens United) buy ads for/against candidates for national office, whereas we have maybe a few hundred to spare for campaign donations, guess who wins?

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    9. Re:Global economy baby ! by WillDraven · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I just got this horrific image of a dystopian future in which you have to carry on your person licenses for every piece of hardware, software, content, fashion accessory, haircut, tattoo, etc. that you have on your person. Don't have your license? Pay the fine or go to jail. The scariest thing about that is I can see it coming true.

      I think I need to go lie down...

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    10. Re:Global economy baby ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hence dvd ripping and burning or compressing and sending over the network.

    11. Re:Global economy baby ! by Lil'wombat · · Score: 1

      What's the problem with that? I'll keep it with my citizenship paperwork and my medical records and dna profile.

      --

      Truth: If it's not one thing, it's another

    12. Re:Global economy baby ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about we start importing Windows that go for like 10$ in China but go for 400$ in the US.

    13. Re:Global economy baby ! by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      Only in Arizona

      --
      Nullius in verba
    14. Re:Global economy baby ! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Prices for Windows (and most software, in fact) don't vary anywhere near as much.

      You can pick it up for cheaper than $10 in China, sure, but that won't be a legit copy, so importing it in U.S will be a copyright infringement.

  5. How does copyright come into play here? by CRCulver · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I thought I had a decent understanding of the three legal spheres grouped under "Intellectual Property": patents, copyright and trademarks. But I don't understand why copyright is involved in this specific case. Wouldn't Omega's logo stamped on products be something protected as a trademark, not as a copyrighted work?

    1. Re:How does copyright come into play here? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If I understand the backstory article correctly, Omega registered a copyright on its logo in order to fall under this exception to the First Sale Doctrine. I believe Costco made a mistake in not challenging the copyright. The Omega logo does not appear to me to be something that is copyrightable. I don't know if they can change their tactics at this point, but if they can, they should. The Omega logo is not distinct from hundreds of other expressions of Omega that have been used for years. When I did a search of "Omega logo" I found a computer company that uses almost exactly the same logo except with the word "Systems" added. Additionally I saw several other similar logos that I did not bother to follow to see what company they were for (but it wasn'tthe watch company).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:How does copyright come into play here? by pem · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The only reason copyright comes into play is because Omega copyrighted this logo for the _specific_ reason of trying to use copyright as a legal market segmentation tool.

      If ever there was a rationale for "misuse of copyright", this is it.

    3. Re:How does copyright come into play here? by reverseengineer · · Score: 2, Informative
      In this case, the stamp on the watch is being considered as "artwork," which falls under copyright. From the FAQ on the US Copyright Office page:

      Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short phrases. In some cases, these things may be protected as trademarks. Contact the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office, 800-786-9199, for further information. However, copyright protection may be available for logo artwork that contains sufficient authorship. In some circumstances, an artistic logo may also be protected as a trademark.

      --
      "FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
    4. Re:How does copyright come into play here? by poena.dare · · Score: 3, Funny

      This is just epic fail for Omega. They should have learned from the much more savvy software publishing industry: don't sell your watches; license them.

    5. Re:How does copyright come into play here? by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      If ever there was a rationale for "misuse of copyright", this is it.

      Copyright is quickly become the big business go-to concept for invalidating constitutions everywhere. Wiretapping, prior restraint, first sale rights, presumption of innocence, parody and satire, academic freedoms, etc, etc. People have rights that are getting in your way? Then get yourself some Copyrights!; Ten times more potent than the average right.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    6. Re:How does copyright come into play here? by $criptah · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is not the Omega logo that is being questioned. Omega has a symbol on the back of the watch that has nothing to do with the Greek letter. It is a symbol that was designed to allow the company to enforce the copyright law. From the article:

      Costco lawyers at Robbins, Russell, Englert, Orseck & Untereiner write in their brief that in 2003, Omega began to stamp its Seamaster watches with a small globe design, less than 5 millimeters across, "for the express purpose of invoking the Copyright Act to restrict the resale of its products."

    7. Re:How does copyright come into play here? by reverseengineer · · Score: 5, Informative

      Want to know what the copyright is really being asserted on? Here's a picture of the back of an Omega Seamaster watch, the article in question. (No affiliation with the site, just what Google turned up first). Omega isn't asserting copyright on their main logo; they've been using it for over a century. Also, it's the Greek letter omega, not exactly a highly stylized and unique design. They aren't asserting copyright on the Seamaster seahorse that dominates the back, though you'd think that desgin qualifies as the best example of artistic authorship on the watch. Omega has been making Seamasters for about 60 years, so I would think that image could still be copyrighted. But that's not what Omega is claiming infringement on either.

      The artwork Omega is enforcing a copyright on is that pattern of circles with an omega in it, just to the right of the pronounced Omega logo and above the "825" in the linked picture. That little doodle is about 0.5 centimeters in diameter, and apparently Omega is arguing that when you buy an Omega Seamaster, you are buying an authorized reproduction of that triumph of human artistic endeavor for the agreed-upon price of two thousand dollars. Omega just happens to be so generous as to frame your purchase with a diving watch.

      --
      "FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
    8. Re:How does copyright come into play here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How does it being copyrighted even matter? Copyrighted material is still subject to the First Sale Doctrine. You bought it, you can resell it, end of story.

    9. Re:How does copyright come into play here? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      I was going to buy an Omega watch at some time in the future. They're much cooler than Rolexes, which keep shitty time.

      Now Omega can blow me.* I'll get an IWC instead.

      * - "Now Omega can blow me" is (c) 2010 blair1q

  6. Bit by bit towards corporate feudalism by unity100 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    in which you will buy everything, but own nothing ...

    1. Re:Bit by bit towards corporate feudalism by Locke2005 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have no problem with that, as long as I'm one of the owners that everybody else is paying a monthly stipend to.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:Bit by bit towards corporate feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to Buy N Large (WALLE)

    3. Re:Bit by bit towards corporate feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You won't be.

  7. Only one solution to all these problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The planet needs a global, multinational currency. That will stop the problems about different prices for each country, problems about manufacturing costs and problems about the purchasing power of everyone. No longer will manufacturing things in China or offering customer support from India be profitable. In return, people will once again have money to spend and the money will flow more freely (both figuratively and literally).

    1. Re:Only one solution to all these problems. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Highly unlikely that that would make much difference.

      There is a class of activity that consists more or less exclusively of making bets about the relative movements of currencies, and there is probably some behavior in "real" markets that is affected by currency movements; but most of this stuff is just about price discrimination, which will be economically rational for sellers as long as there are multiple buyers willing to pay different amounts more than the marginal cost of production.

      National borders happen to be one convenient mechanism for price discrimination; but there are many others. The idea that such techniques deserve the protection of law, against the doctrine of first sale, though, is disgusting.

    2. Re:Only one solution to all these problems. by Matrix14 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This explains why a given item costs the same in Oklahoma and New York City.

    3. Re:Only one solution to all these problems. by Locke2005 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Wrong, wrong, wrong! The planet already has a global currency, it's called "gold". Ask yourself this: would the disparities in pricing still exist if all contracts were payed in gold? The different prices for each country are driven by marketers trying to charge whatever cost the market will bear, this has little or no connection to currency exchange rates. Manufacturing is cheaper where the labor costs are cheaper; again, this has nothing to do with exchange rates. Also, the Euro is an ongoing experiment in a multinational currency which is about to fail due to being dragged down by Greece.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    4. Re:Only one solution to all these problems. by Lakitu · · Score: 1

      Ask yourself this: would the disparities in pricing still exist if all contracts were payed in gold?

      Of course it would. Is gold in Kentucky worth the same to you as gold that is in Zimbabwe?

      How about milk that is in Kentucky versus milk that is in Zimbabwe?

      An AK47 in New York City compared to an AK47 in Afghanistan?

    5. Re:Only one solution to all these problems. by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Right... so how would a common currency fix the problem of disparate pricing in different countries?

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    6. Re:Only one solution to all these problems. by idontgno · · Score: 1

      Ask yourself this: would the disparities in pricing still exist if all contracts were payed in gold?

      Yes. Gold-producing regions and states would be forced to induce artificial scarcity in the the monetary standard commodity or face inflation. In other words, they'd have to manage their money supplies. Just like now.

      I continue to be amazed at the irrational belief that gold is some kind of "natural currency". Gold is shiny, and pretty, and heavy, and feels nice to play with, but magic it isn't.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  8. Like Beanie Babies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This reminds me of when US taxpayers were forced to foot the bill for taking Beanie Babies from people who legally purchased them, just to protect a pricing scheme. Some free market.

    Sorry about the bad link.

  9. first sale by sixsixtysix · · Score: 1

    i'd like to see how first sale doctrine would go with purchased mp3s. or better, ones given away for free. awhile back, amazon gave away like 11 mojo nixon albums. can i sell those (and delete originals) for whatever i want? i mean, if they were cds, i could, so...

    --
    ...
  10. Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Easier to steal everything off internets.

  11. Rediculous interpretation of law by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, if I live in England, legally buy an Omega watch there, then legally immigrate to the US, it is now a copyright violation to resell that watch on eBay?!? This flies in the face of common sense!

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by tsm_sf · · Score: 1

      'Common Sense' and 'Law' are two totally distinct entities. Tears of frustration and rage will ensue if you continue to conflate them.

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
    2. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Sometimes law is the polar opposite of common sense

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    3. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by Scarletdown · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe with eBay, to be able to resell that item as an Omega watch, you have to jump through countless flaming hoops to prove that it is not a counterfeit (effectively provide a notarized affidavit signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, lost, found, lost again, recycled as firelighters, and buried in soft peat for six months).

      Without such proof, you would not be able to mention the Omega name or show the logo on the item if you want to sell it.

      And that would be a trademark violation, not copyright. Or just to cover everything, call it an imaginary property violation.

      --
      This space unintentionally left blank.
    4. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by mybecq · · Score: 2, Informative

      So, if I live in England, legally buy an Omega watch there, then legally immigrate to the US, it is now a copyright violation to resell that watch on eBay?!? This flies in the face of common sense!

      See USC TITLE 17 > CHAPTER 6 > 602 (a) (3) (B). That is not an infringement.

    5. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by pilgrim23 · · Score: 1

      Consider the antiquarian collector. A First Folio Shakespeare might be covered by a copyright issued for a new printing, edition, revised font, scholarly criticism edition of say the Tempest. Thus, a $12.95 modern paperback now can be used to halt the sale of a 6 figure valued volume? Are they really trying this hard to create a new black market for every sale possible? "Psst! I have some food.. Cheap!"

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    6. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      The cited section appears to apply only to "phonorecords". A watch manufactured under license from Omega cannot be considered a "copy" of an Omega watch; it IS an Omega watch!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    7. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Good effort, but wrong cite. 17 USC 602 addresses whether or not bringing the watch into the US is an infringement by itself. Assuming that it is not an infringement merely to import it, you would want to consult 17 USC 109 to determine whether or not it would be an infringement to resell it on eBay.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    8. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      A copy, for the purposes of copyright law (see the definitions section at 17 USC 101), is any material object in which a copyrighted work has been fixed. For example, if you write a poem on a sheet of paper, the poem is the work, and the paper in which it is embodied is a copy (the first copy is still a copy). If you xerox it, there is still only one poem, and thus only one work, but now there are two copies of it. You could destroy the first copy and the work would continue to exist in the second copy.

      Thus, if the watch, or something on the watch, is copyrightable, the watch (or at least the relevant portion thereof) is a copy, because it is a material object in which the work is fixed.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    9. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by kramerd · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but I understand contract law as a PA (soon to be CPA).

      Your act of selling a used watch does not make you a merchant. Selling it on ebay may mean otherwise. You would have no problem selling it on craigslist, representing yourself as an individual (until craigslist changes its policies, which if you are selling something on craigslist, you as an individual are required to keep yourself up to date). Trying to sell it on ebay as an individual would also carry minimal to excruciatingly large issues (for example,you may need the original packaging or some such to prove it is an Omega watch, or you may need to get the watch insured and the insurance notarized; I am not familiar with Omega watches or ebay's policies regarding their sale). Selling it as a merchant on ebay has massive legal repercussions that hoist the flag of common sense (that would be expected of a merchant, not a layperson).

      You are a consumer, and your used watch is sold 'as-is,' so if breaks, you don't have warranty costs (although on ebay you may still be liable; ebay is a service and as such retains the right to make you jump through any hoops it pleases...if you don't like them, find a different service or create you own; after all, here in the US you can pretty much start any business you want; while your legal issues may vary). If your watch is actually an Omuga watch, and not an Omega watch, you are not liable to replace the product with an actual one, but you can't call it an Omega watch, no matter who you are.

      A reseller, on the other hand, isn't selling used watches that they were using, and have to be held to standards of contract law in the US (and if importing them, also of the country of origin, depending on the country). They are importing watches and reselling them (hence why they are called resellers) and held to the same standards as if they were the manufacturer (sometimes modified, depending on the creator, who holds the manufacturer liable for who they sell to). If you are selling Omuga watches (not Omega), then yes, Omega can sue you for slapping an Omega label on them, even if you bought them from overseas once. Meanwhile, if you sell Omega watches, you don't get the right to change the prices as a reseller, if Omega requires a price floor in order to be a reseller in your region (among many, many other control methods that you may be subject to, even as a consumer...again, right of first sale may apply, but not to resellers). You can look up case law on your own time.

      To recap, as an individual, copyright does in fact cover imports; its how you imported in the first place. As a merchant, keep a lawyer on retainer to advise you as to your rights (online or off). If you don't understand the difference, I would speak to a lawyer, in person, before trying to sell watches as a merchant, and if selling as an individual, make absolutely certain that your purchaser understands that you are not a merchant.

    10. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by fermion · · Score: 1
      It is kind of ridiculous, and Omega needs to lose the case, but that does not mean that Costco is not equally wrong with respect to the consumer. This is because the first sale doctrine can work both ways. Not only does the manufacturer not have any control of the second so, and this is how is should be, but the second buyer also cannot automatically assume that the manufacturer has to support the goods. To use your example, if you sold it on Ebay, and said that Omega fully covered the watch, it would be fraud.

      Mont Blanc does uses this idea of not covering the second sale. One can buy a Mont Blanc product anywhere, but if it is not through an authorized dealer(presumably any sale not through an authorized dealer is a second sale) then Mont Blanc does not cover warranty repairs for free. Many manufacturers protect themselves with warranty that only apply to the original purchases. I don't know what the Omega warranty is, but if is has a limitation to the first purchaser, and Costco is the first purchases, then Costco is either defrauding Omega of the Costco customer. If Omega does have a transferable warranty, then that is an error on the part of Omega.{I just looked at the warrenty and Omega does require a stamp at least for some watches, so if costco is not telling customers this, then that is a problem.)

      The fact is that these luxury goods are in fact luxuries, and no one needs them, especially of a certain brand. People who are willing to buy these goods from Costco to save a few bucks might as well just buy them from the trunk of a car. If one can afford an Omega, fine, but if one is saving and struggling enough to need to go to Costco, then maybe the priorities are not in order. It is a catch-22. On one hand we want to pay for the logo so that people think we are rich and desirable, OTOH we depreciate the logo by buying it from warehouse stores to the point that all it conveys is a owner that is so insecure he or she needs a logo to validate a low self esteem.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    11. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      I agree that the warranty that was in place at the time and place of first sale should apply; the warranty should not get automatically upgraded to an US warranty because it was (re)imported to the US. Also, Costco should be required to inform customer that the watches are not covered by a US warranty, or if the warranty is non-transferable, they should say it is not covered by any warranty. But again, if I buy the watch in Europe, move to the US, and later it breaks, can Omega force me to ship it back to Europe for repair under warranty?

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    12. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by Late+Adopter · · Score: 1

      It's the wrong cite, but not for that reason. 602(a)(3)(B) applies to importation for private use only. Otherwise 602(a)(1) establishes that importation *is* an infringement by itself. The decision itself agrees with this in section III, parts 1 and 2. The rest discusses whether 109(a) applies, given precedents.

      This case isn't actually news, except for the misuse of copyright angle which the defense chose not to argue. BMG Music v Perez (9th circuit, 1991) affirmed a copyright holder's exclusive right to import.

    13. Re:Rediculous interpretation of law by tapanitarvainen · · Score: 1

      Consider the antiquarian collector. A First Folio Shakespeare might be covered by a copyright issued for a new printing, edition, revised font, scholarly criticism edition of say the Tempest.

      No. The new edition has its own copyright, created by the criticism and whatnot, but it has no affect on the original, whose copyright has expired. It does mean you can't copy the Tempest edition because the original's copyright has expired, but if you get your hands on the original you can copy it as much as you want, and of course you can also sell and resell it.

  12. Sorry, but copyright does control imports by jmorris42 · · Score: 0

    Copyright is an artificial government grant of monopoly over reproduction and public performance of a work. A foreign import isn't reproduced under that monopoly grant and is thus illegal to import or sell in the US. Black letter law guys. The fact that in small quantities (and marked up over the closest local version as in the typical import album) the rights holders don't mind, but they still possess an absolute legal monopoly on reproduction of copies for sale inside the US so if they do decide they don't like an import they have the right to forbid it.

    And the same legal theory exists in most, but not all, other countries.

    You don't have to agree with the reasoning behind copyright, you don't even have to belive they should exist. The fact is they do exist and unless you want to change the law it is what it is. This isn't even a DMCA like abuse of the copyright clause in the US Constitution, it is the very heart of what copyright is.

    --
    Democrat delenda est
    1. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fact that the Supreme Court took the case suggests that it isn't black-letter law, doesn't it?

    2. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Except the first sale doctrine has alwasy been considered sacrosanct part of the law in the U.S., especially for tangible goods. If I want to sell my used car, I shouldn't have to check in with GM first to see what price they'll let me sell it at, or to whom I may sell it.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    3. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by BUL2294 · · Score: 1

      Under the logic of the 9th Circuit, if you legally import a classic Jaguar from Europe, you have to get permission from Tata Motors to resell it!

      --
      Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
    4. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      Interesting point - I hadn't considered it like that. How does that account for the fact that so many things are manufactured abroad, though? If the product is manufactured in China under license of the US copyright holder, half the shipment goes straight to 'official' distributors in the US, and the other half is bought cheap in Russia and then imported to the US by a third party, it seems to cast a shadow on the concept that the product was not authorised for US sale.

      There's also the fact that, in this particular case, Omega had no right to register the copyright on their logo in the first place. It should be a trademark, and thus the case would be a non-issue. Could still set an interesting precedent for games, CDs and movies, though.

    5. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Except that importing a legally sold good is not the reproduction or public performance of the item. The importer is not in fact reproducing the work or making a public performance of the work - how are they violating the copyright? (and do remember that the item in question is a legitimate copy, produced by the copyright holder)

    6. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by jmorris42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, it is an indicator of a worse problem. We used to have the Rule of Law. Now we have the Rule of Men. Problem is what I wrote above is so self evidently correct that this case shouldn't have made it into a courtroom at all. In a sane world, any competent attorney would have explained the law, charged the client for an hour and that would have been that. But because both sides correctly understand the bizarro reality we actually live in they are rolling the dice; since justice is now whatever a judge says and their views are randomly distributed.

      The difference is when you have the Rule of Law the laws are knowable and mostly predictable. Courts are mostly occupied with determining the facts of the particular case and then applying the law to them. The occasional case will test an unexpected corner of the law but it an exception. Now the written laws mean little and judges apply their opinions of 'justice' to cases and their rulings are thus mostly unknowable beforehand. This of course means everyone take a try at court as soon as they have nothing left to lose.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    7. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by selven · · Score: 1

      Copyright is an artificial government grant of monopoly over reproduction and public performance of a work. A foreign import isn't reproduced under that monopoly grant and is thus illegal to import or sell in the US.

      Wait, what? Copyright is a monopoly over reproduction and public performance, so it makes it illegal to import goods legally created in another country but sold for lower prices? I fail to see the logical reasoning here.

    8. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by mybecq · · Score: 2, Informative

      A foreign import isn't reproduced under that monopoly grant and is thus illegal to import or sell in the US. Black letter law guys. The fact that in small quantities (and marked up over the closest local version as in the typical import album) the rights holders don't mind, but they still possess an absolute legal monopoly on reproduction of copies for sale inside the US so if they do decide they don't like an import they have the right to forbid it.

      Too bad that isn't how they ruled in QUALITY KING DISTRIBUTORS, INC. v. L’ANZARESEARCH INT’L.

      Held: The first sale doctrine endorsed in 109(a) is applicable to imported copies. Pp. 3—18. ...
      (b) The statutory language clearly demonstrates that the right granted by 602(a) is subject to 109(a).

    9. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by idontgno · · Score: 1

      If you buy a modern Jaguar, and the EULA of the engine controller firmware says so, you almost certainly may need explicit permission to resell it.

      In theory, anyway. Probably not really, yet. But watch for it.

      This is the (il)logical conclusion of copyright-and-license as an end-run around first sale.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    10. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      At last, a car analogy! It all makes sense now!

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    11. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      The difference is when you have the Rule of Law the laws are knowable and mostly predictable.

      Isn't that the real stumbling block? It doesn't take judges with randomly distributed opinions. All it takes is 600 years of accumulated law, all designed by lawyers for lawyers. After centuries of busily muddying the waters, the law is NOT knowable. It's designed that way. Every judge in the world could be pure as the driven snow and possessed of only the loftiest motives, and they would still completely fail. The corpus of crap they are trying to interpret just doesn't build. It's full of syntax errors, redundant competing libraries, spaghetti code, missing dependencies, and weird legacy global variables.

      It doesn't help that judges in the US are usually lawyers.

    12. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Copyright is an artificial government grant of monopoly over reproduction and public performance of a work. A foreign import isn't reproduced under that monopoly grant and is thus illegal to import or sell in the US.

      Omega has the sole right to reproduce Omega watches. They reproduce them while holding the copyright on them in this country and the country reproduced. They are then shipped without copy or alteration and sole elsewhere. Copyright doesn't give any rights to an object's use. It only is regarding the production/reproduction of such items. The copies were official copies. They were made by the copyright holder. There was never a copy made that wasn't authorized. So on what authority can they prevent the owner of the legally obtained copy from selling it?

      The fact that in small quantities (and marked up over the closest local version as in the typical import album) the rights holders don't mind, but they still possess an absolute legal monopoly on reproduction of copies for sale inside the US so if they do decide they don't like an import they have the right to forbid it.

      If the person holding the US copyright authorizes the copy, then on what grounds can they object to the 100% authorized copy being sold?

    13. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like putting too much air in a balloon.

    14. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "We used to have the Rule of Law."

      This "alternate universe" idea intrigues me. In which one did men not rule over law and merely invoke it when convenient to their purpose?

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    15. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by TheNarrator · · Score: 1

      The pattern in the current system, where lobbyists write the legislation and the politicians sign it, is to make things as complicated as possible to prevent scrutiny and to grant advantage to the author. The law is littered with examples of this, the tax code in particular. The same goes on outside of the government as well. For example, some derivatives contracts that blew up in 2008 were so complicated, arguably on purpose, that no one who wasn't a rare breed of specialist could make sense of them and understand the risks involved. I fear health care reform is following this pattern as well. What's needed are simpler laws and simpler systems but there is so much hidden advantage in complicating things that the trend is going to be difficult to reverse.

    16. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by Tacvek · · Score: 1

      Under the basic theory of copyright, this case would have been dismissed, and the court would have fined Omega several million dollars for wasting its time.

      But unfortunately, nobody bothered to implement the abstract theory of copyright. They wrote some very confusing and poorly worded laws, that have special exceptions, and special exceptions to the special exceptions, and clauses that literally have no possible meaning that is consistent with the rest of the law, etc.

      In the whole of this mess, the clauses regarding importation intended to keep out counterfeits were written incorrectly, such that they completely prohibit importation of a work without the permission of the copyright holder, even if the work was originally authorized by said copyright holder.

      The courts should reject omega's claim, and rule that the importation was legal, but that would mean that importation of counterfeit works is also legal until congresses fixes the law. So that will never happen.

      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    17. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by Ares · · Score: 1

      this of course makes me wonder. i wasn't presented a eula for the new car i bought a few years ago. there's certainly firmware in the ecm of it. i wonder...

    18. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Copyright is an artificial government grant of monopoly over reproduction and public performance of a work. A foreign import isn't reproduced under that monopoly grant and is thus illegal to import or sell in the US.

      This is precisely why international copyright treaties, such as the Berne convention, were put in place.

    19. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Their monopoly is on production, not sale. They have no right to restrict trade. That's congress' job.

    20. Re:Sorry, but copyright does control imports by russotto · · Score: 1

      The courts should reject omega's claim, and rule that the importation was legal, but that would mean that importation of counterfeit works is also legal until congresses fixes the law. So that will never happen.

      All they have to do is rule that "lawfully made under this title" includes "lawfully made in a country in the Berne Convention". Which would actually make sense because if you look at 17 USC 104, which defines which works "are subject to protection under this title", you find that all works made in "a treaty party" are included. If a work in a foreign country which the US has a copyright treaty with can be "subject to protection under this title", then surely a copy made in a foreign country can also be "lawfully made under this title". That excludes counterfeits while including foreign works, preserving the status quo ante.

  13. Law and Precedents by zero_out · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I read the article, and I have to say that I am still baffled by how much US law relies on precedents. Judges are fallible humans. Even after several rounds of appeals, erroneous judgements happen. Prior to emancipation, the US Supreme Court issued rulings in favor of owning slaves. If the court followed precedent, then it should have ruled against Lincoln's emancipation proclamation. Ruling on precedent is the same as answering the question "why do we do this?" by saying "because we always have." Why does so much of US law rest on precedent, when it's obvious that past rulings are sometimes (often) flawed? Please, don't say "because we always have."

    1. Re:Law and Precedents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      By relying on precedents, it is easier to tell what the law is. You don't have to worry about a future court interpreting the same law a different way.

      If you want to change the law, you can still do it through Congress. Even the Constitution can be amended if you don't like how the courts have interpreted it.

    2. Re:Law and Precedents by Matrix14 · · Score: 1

      While you may agree or disagree, the guiding principle behind this reliance on precedent is that people should know what the law is going to do. Even if a court rules in a way that is completely ludicrous to those in the know, later courts of the same jurisdiction cannot overrule it , or at least are loath to do so, so those subject to the law will know how it will be applied in the future.

    3. Re:Law and Precedents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Precedent can be overruled, if it is flawed. In practice, I think this happens rather less often than it should. But here's the argument in favor of (some degree of) adherence to precedent.

      Laws will never be precise enough that all judges will interpret them exactly the same way, so their will be corner cases where legitimate differences of judgement arise. If each judge makes a determination from scratch, then anyone unlucky enough to fall into one of these edges will get a different outcome depending what judge presides over his trial, which is bad. Also, consider the effect on people trying to obey the law unclear -- obviously, you stay out of the corners, since you can't be sure how your judge would interpret it, effectually broadening the law to the broadest reasonable interpretation (which is the wrong bias), and yet randomly failing to punish some incursions because you "got lucky" wrt judges.

      By relying on precedent, the first judge who rules on some vague provision of a law lays out an interpretation, and after that everyone knows how it will be interpreted at their trial. Same justice for everyone, and if that interpretation turns out to be wrong, it may be corrected both by later judges, who can overturn bad precedent at will, and by the legislature, who can amend/replace the legislation to make it more specific and eliminate the misinterpretation.

    4. Re:Law and Precedents by Tanman · · Score: 1

      Stability.

    5. Re:Law and Precedents by Obfuscant · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Ruling on precedent is the same as answering the question "why do we do this?" by saying "because we always have."

      No, it's the same as saying "because the supreme court decided that way in a similar situation, and it's a real waste of time to try to reverse the supreme court with our own fanciful rulings". That doesn't seem to stop the Ninth Circuit, however.

      It's also a way of adding inertia to the system, which in the long run is a good thing. It's very hard doing anything under a system that flip-flops every time a judge farts. Or in a country where three regions (circuits) operate under courts that rule one way and the rest under different rulings.

      That's also why the inertia of having a bicameral legislature is worth the effort.

    6. Re:Law and Precedents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simply put, precident or stare decisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stare_decisis, is the mechanism that entables Jugdes to edit the law.

      We rely on precedent because statutes and regulations don't specify the outcome of all controversies. Large bodies of law don't originate in statues at all, and others, like the US constitution are highly abstract, and require substantial guidance to apply to particular cases.

      This creates uncertainty that leads to controversies. When parties to a controversy disagree on what the law is or how it should be applied to a set of facts, a Judge decides. The rule that past decisions can be controlling authority helps provide predictability to the law.

      Wrong decisions are made and occasionally overturned. But this is the process that the US uses to create and maintain the laws governing much of our society.

      BTW the Civil War was effectively legal controversy decided extra-judicial means.

    7. Re:Law and Precedents by nomadic · · Score: 1

      The idea is that it's just the courts' job to interpret the law; if they interpret it incorrectly chances are that it was the legislators fault for drafting it poorly, or not anticipating certain issues. And unfortunately before the Emancipation Proclamation there was no federal legal impediment to the existence of slavery.

    8. Re:Law and Precedents by Stray7Xi · · Score: 1

      Why does so much of US law rest on precedent, when it's obvious that past rulings are sometimes (often) flawed? Please, don't say "because we always have."

      Imagine if the betamax case didn't cause precedent. Every time someone released a product with a record functionality, they'd go through a lawsuit only to be decided on the whim of whatever judge they had that day. Some products get the seal of approval, some are marked illegal. It'd be chaos.

      Precedent allows you to predict the outcome of that case without spending millions developing the product first.

  14. Already against the law in the UK by thisissilly · · Score: 5, Informative

    Tesco (think British Wal-mart) was legal purchasing Levi's jeans in Europe from wholesalers, and then reselling them in the UK for lower price than Levi's wanted them sold there. Levi's sued them, and won. We can only hope the US Supreme Court sees things differently.

    1. Re:Already against the law in the UK by Tacvek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That case is just plain absurd. The argument in that case being that Importing and selling a branded item may violate the trademark rights of the brand holder? That argument could only possible be valid in the case of counterfeit goods. Otherwise trademark law just does not work like that. As long as I am selling genuine levi's jeans, I am using the trademark (the Levi's tag on the product) in a purely descriptive manner, which is part of what trademark law explicitly does not prohibit.

      Unless I am missing something, I must conclude that the judge was clearly unfamiliar with the law, and depending on the lawyers to properly argue both law and fact, which is something judges do all too often despite the fact that that is forbidden. The results are verdicts that are inconsistent with the law itself.

      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    2. Re:Already against the law in the UK by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      But the Tesco/Levi's case didn't hinge on copyright, if I understand it, but on trademark law and trade regulations. Tesco was free to buy Levi's from Italy or Spain, for example, but was importing them from countries outside the EU, which is forbidden without the consent of the manufacturer.

      What I don't understand is that the fact that Levi's were available at a much cheaper price in Eastern Europe sounds like classic dumping on Levi's part, which should mean Tesco can bring a complaint to the European Commission -- but perhaps that's not an effective process in practice?

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    3. Re:Already against the law in the UK by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      If that's the case, couldn't you now sue Levi directly for Price Fixing?

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:Already against the law in the UK by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      Tesco [...] was importing them from countries outside the EU, which is forbidden without the consent of the manufacturer.

      What's the logic behind making that illegal?

    5. Re:Already against the law in the UK by chrb · · Score: 1

      What's the logic behind making that illegal?

      The actual act of importing goods isn't illegal - there are thousands of EU companies that make a living from importing goods from outside the EU. The logic in the Tesco vs Levi case was that trademark law enables a manufacturer to dictate how that trademark is used in commercial retail environments. Each item of clothing contains a distinctive trademarked logo - hence the trademark owner can dictate how each item of clothing is sold within a commercial retail environment. The finding may be annoying for the general public, but I can see how the judges came to that conclusion given current laws.

    6. Re:Already against the law in the UK by chrb · · Score: 1

      If that's the case, couldn't you now sue Levi directly for Price Fixing?

      Price fixing is only illegal within a legal jurisdiction that makes it illegal. It is legal for companies to charge varying amounts to customers in different nations of the EU (there may be varying distribution costs etc.). However, that doesn't apply to the Levi case, since Tesco were apparently buying from outside the EU, and there is no law that stops a company charging different prices in, say, the US, the EU, or the rest of the world.

    7. Re:Already against the law in the UK by erroneus · · Score: 1

      If something is legally bought, it should be legal to sell anywhere either by an individual or by an operation of scale. It's an interesting spin to use trademark law as the mechanism for control, but these items are not counterfeit and technically not "new" even if they are not exactly "used" either. But when we seek to limit the right of the present owner from selling his possessions, we are effectively saying that he doesn't actually own these possessions at all. This is a dangerous thing indeed.

      If the problem is that the trademark holder cannot or does not want to compete by lowering prices in other markets, then what we have here is a problem that specifically involves price fixing. If the items are not counterfeit and are cheaper somewhere else while at the same time are preventing the general public from having access to the same item at a lower price, that is price fixing and it is illegal under U.S. law.

    8. Re:Already against the law in the UK by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      MAP programs (Minimum Advertised Price) isn't illegal. Neither is a reseller agreement that forces "authorized resellers" to hold to a minimum price and not discount below that. You might like to call it "price fixing" but the reasons behind it are accepted by current laws.

      The biggest reason for it is customer service. If you are selling something for a 2% margin you can't afford to do much customer service whereas the manufacturer may require resellers to act as their agent for customers to give them in-person local support. So the "authorized" reseller with a 12% margin can afford to do this but the low-margin reseller can't.

      Today, the Internet makes it clear what the price is but never any terms beyond that. If the manufacturer's policy is that returns only come through authorized resellers this is a great benefit for customers that go to the store, buy the product and have problems with it or wish to return it - they have a local agent they can go to and not even have to pay return shipping. But a quick Internet search shows that the same item can be had at a lower price somewhere else. Of course, the Internet search doesn't show that the cheaper price means no support, and a much harder return process.

      So of course what this results in is generally degrading the service that everyone receives in exchange for some low, low price. Call it the Walmartization of the marketplace. Cheaper goods, zero customer service, know-nothing sales clerks whose function is only to take your money.

    9. Re:Already against the law in the UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So of course what this results in is generally degrading the service that everyone receives in exchange for some low, low price. Call it the Walmartization of the marketplace. Cheaper goods, zero customer service, know-nothing sales clerks whose function is only to take your money.

      The consumer is to blame for that. When people start shopping around, often they will seek a knowledgeable sales clerk but purchase the same product elsewhere cheaper. So knowing that, what incentive does a store have by keeping competent people around if it doesn't pay off? They'll just end up losing money. So, stores end up being nothing more than faceless warehouses (Frys, Wallmart, NewEgg, Amazon...etc). It's more profitable that way.

  15. "Grey Market" by tlhIngan · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't know why it's a copyright issue, since it's a physical item, but usually we call such legitimate imports "grey market" goods. They're not officially for sale ("white market") nor are they illegal to sell ("black market"), but they're legally sold goods for distribution elsewhere that's re-imported for local sale.

    Happens all the time even with IP materials like books, CDs and DVDs. Hell, Amazon and Walmart are probably the biggest "offenders" - I can buy two CDs, one locally and one from Amazon (or Walmart) and the local one is from the Canadian distributor, while the one I got from Amazon (or Walmart) comes from the US.

    Ditto books - sometimes the US-Canadian book pricing is so out of whack, it's cheaper to get it from Amazon.com than Amazon.ca even with shipping charges.

    Camera manufacturers used to be the biggest PITA regarding grey market goods - if you imported a camera, they would insist that warranties and such were only honored in the purchasing country - buy it in the US, service is done in the US, other countries would not touch it. Oh yeah, and the return shipping, to that address in the country.

    Thankfully, for most products this doesn't happen (it's not strictly illegal, but it's a great way to piss off customers) anymore - I figure most companies gave up trying to track serial numbers and points of origin, and lets them move inventory around as needed by demand.

    Of course, importation of such products is perfectly legal.

    1. Re:"Grey Market" by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Been there, done that... actually I'm picking up my new video camera tomorrow. No wonder when the US model costs 999$ and the EU model 999E. Plus I get another 10 fps going from 50 to 60 fps as a bonus, as long as it doesn't break.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:"Grey Market" by phorm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Thankfully, for most products this doesn't happen

      It does for a lot of laptops. That's why many companies seem to have - for example - a model that ends in -US or CA. The major model number on the top may say DX8200, but the stamp on the bottom is more specifically a DX8243CA...

    3. Re:"Grey Market" by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      And as a motorcyclist I find it really annoying that Canada gets more and better motorcycles than we get in the US!
      There are several models of Honda that are not imported to the US but are available in Canada! The logic from Honda is that they wouldn't sell enough of them in the US!
      I mean really? There are how many people in Canada?
      Oh well at least we get cheap books here.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    4. Re:"Grey Market" by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      It does for a lot of laptops. That's why many companies seem to have - for example - a model that ends in -US or CA. The major model number on the top may say DX8200, but the stamp on the bottom is more specifically a DX8243CA...

      Yeah, but it's not really a worry for warranty purposes. Most likely it's because they have different software loads - the Canadian version often includes the option for French. Or the trialware crap is different (because we don't have Hulu, Netflix, and others which makes no sense to include in the Canadian version). Occasionally it's because the US and Canadian versions are configured differently - the Canadian version having several features reduced to keep the pricepoints similar and/or acceptable (e.g., slower CPU, smaller hard disk).

      Such differentiation is expected, but to do crap like deny local warranty service for legitmately purchased goods is just evil, not to mention treating such goods as having no warranty - you can send it back, but they can't return it because it can only be returned within the original country of purchase.

  16. Oh Ninth Circuit! You loveable rogue! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, practicing judicial activism in the face of common sense since I would wager most /.'rs can remember.

    Whether it's overzealous application of honest separation of church and state (Newdow v. U.S. Congress) or trampling our already shaky right to privacy (Kyllo v. United States) my heart is simply aflutter to hear what they come up with next.

  17. First-sale doctrine and copyright law by MSTCrow5429 · · Score: 1

    The first-sale doctrine doesn't apply to copyright? Does the Copyright Act have a parallel provision to s. 526 of the Tariff Act of 1922?

    --
    Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
    1. Re:First-sale doctrine and copyright law by Blindman · · Score: 1

      First sale does apply to copyright. The issue for the Costco v. Omega case is whether a first sale that occurs outside of the United States triggers that doctrine with respect to subsequent sales within the United States.

      --
      I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person that I'm preaching to.
  18. Er, Doctrine of First Sale? by Rene+S.+Hollan · · Score: 1

    Or am I missing something?

    If the importer imported it, he/she purchased it (or obtained it on consignment, which is probably unlikely), and can do with it what they wish.

    As far as controlling a use of a thing, that would be a matter for a license, not a copyright.

    I do recall a case in Canada, though, where an importer of toy cars obtained them legitimately, but was barred from selling them and competing with an "official" agent, on the basis of the copyright on the packaging, but I think that was a different case: while the toy was legit, the license to print packaging outside of Canada was not.

    --
    In Liberty, Rene
  19. College Textbooks by mahsah · · Score: 1

    If the Supreme Court makes a stupid ruling on this college students will be even more screwed than they are already. "International Editions" of textbooks are usually less than half the cost of a "domestic" edition and have the exact same content most of the time.

  20. One thing at a time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this mean someone explained to them the difference between an e-mail and a pager?

  21. This is a copyright case!?! by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 3, Funny

    At what point was the watch disassembled at a molecular level and then reproduced in bulk by a nano-lathe?

    1. Re:This is a copyright case!?! by jonwil · · Score: 1

      The watch is not what is copyrighted, the logo on the watch is what Omega is claiming copyright on.

  22. Copyright holders rights over lending DVDs? by grolschie · · Score: 1

    As an aside, what's with the unauthorized "lending" restrictions printed on some DVD covers and inside some books? Reselling? Hmmm....

  23. ex-roommate imported books by amigabill · · Score: 1

    An old roommate of mine was from India, and he could order engineering textbooks from back home in India for equivalent of US$3 or $5 or so, the bookstore would sell the same title to me for $85 or so. Amazon wasn't up quite yet back then, but still not nearly as cheap as India anyway. My friend says the price difference must be due to lower quality of paper the Indian coy was printed on. Eh, sorry, your paper may be a bit floppier, but I don't think that difference is worth around US$80.

  24. Copyright holders should control the market? by erroneus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It has long been held as illegal to engage in price fixing. Region coding for DVDs, for example, is most often used for the purpose of controlling initial distribution (which is their right) to release certain things in certain areas at certain times (which is not their right entirely). Once something is legally sold, they no longer own the rights to anything about it excepts for its duplication which includes various forms of duplication such as public playback or performance. But to individually sold items are no longer under the control of the publisher and the disc or tape or book can be transported and sold anywhere else. All of this is established in precedent or is otherwise understood as common law. You can buy a book, sell a book or even lend a book. Why this wouldn't apply to DVDs or other media defies logic. To make this truly the case, they will have to redefine copyright law to disallow someone to resell that which they have bought. This would be a very bad move for copyright holders as fewer people would be interested in buying something they couldn't later liquidate if some unfortunate event occurs in the future. Instead, people would do only rental and, of course, illegal copying.

    Copyright holders have long wanted to be able to control the resale of their goods. Take, for example, the diamond trade -- they really have it the way they want it. Diamonds are super expensive new but if you try to sell one, you will find you will not get much for it... and further, you will find their prices "used" as more than inexpensive. (Wanna buy an engagement ring? Go to a pawn shop.... seriously) But law all around the planet have made this sort of control over the market illegal. This is why DeBeers cannot operate in the U.S. and many other countries legally. If copyright holders want that level of control, they will find themselves unable to operate legally in the very countries they do business. It's conceivable that they would simply buy laws that exclude their own products, but buying laws are a tricky thing and subject to constitutional rules.

    1. Re:Copyright holders should control the market? by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      One thing that you clearly do not understand about DVDs and movies is distribution is licensed pretty much by country. If the movie does not meet that country's standards, it is not licensed for distribution and cannot be shown or sold.

      A movie that is highly critical of the Catholic Church would likely never be licensed in Italy or Ireland, for example. If it further showed priests chasing after small children and raping them there is no question - it would not be distributed in those countries whereas it might be distributed in the US or UK. Region coding is one way this is handled.

      Another example is a R-rated movie that showed frontal nudity. Pubic hair is not allowed to be shown in Japan whereas it is perfectly OK in the US. But an airline version of the same movie would have even stricter editing requirements than anywhere else which is why it is a separate region code.

      Sure, today there are ways of circumventing these restrictions. You can find online sellers that will ship anything anywhere, regardless of import restrictions and such. But Amazon probably will not ship region 1 DVDs to Japan. Because they would get in a lot of trouble from Japan for doing so.

      Now, if you want the UN to control standards for worldwide video distribution and insist that they be 100% harmonized you might find some people willing to go along with that. However, in order to not offend anyone the result would likely be a lot of G-rated movies with nice friendly furry animal animated characters and no naked people, ever. And no controversial topics. Because no matter what the subject might be, you are sure to find someone that would be offended and that wouldn't ever be permitted.

    2. Re:Copyright holders should control the market? by Rennt · · Score: 1

      One thing that you clearly do not understand about DVDs and movies is distribution is licensed pretty much by country. If the movie does not meet that country's standards, it is not licensed for distribution and cannot be shown or sold.

      This isn't really correct. Most national trade authorities (AU, NZ, EU, WTO) take a pretty dim view of region coding. It is tolerated (you can region code your media if you want) but certainly not backed up by force of law. (you can't force people to use region locked players)

      Region coding IS part of the distribution license, however this license is between private parties (the distributors). Classification and/or censorship have nothing to do with this process.

  25. Research happens outside the US too by sjbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Regulate the US Market and its bye bye medical research.

    While it is true that the US does a good bit of the heavy lifting in medical research, it is FAR from true that all medical research depends on the US. Many medical companies and research institutions exist and are headquartered outside the US including some of the biggest pharmaceutical companies. Plenty of research goes on across the world without the US being involved.

    Please note that I'm not dismissing your general thesis completely - price controls are something to be approached with great caution. However it is not fair to say that all price regulation is a bad idea. Access to medicine is a moral issue as much as it is an economic one. Many medicines are sold for profit margins that are hard to justify to anyone with a conscience. It's fine for drug companies to make a profit, a handsome profit even. But resources for medical care are finite and just because a drug company is able to charge a lot doesn't always mean they should.

    1. Re:Research happens outside the US too by Simetrical · · Score: 1

      Many medicines are sold for profit margins that are hard to justify to anyone with a conscience. It's fine for drug companies to make a profit, a handsome profit even. But resources for medical care are finite and just because a drug company is able to charge a lot doesn't always mean they should.

      In large businesses, profit is reinvested in the company. A few percent might go to bonuses for executives or dividends to shareholders, but the vast majority will be invested in expanding the business in some way. (E.g., Pfizer pays its CEO around $15 million – under 0.05% of its $50 billion annual revenue.) In the case of a drug research company, much of the profit probably goes into R&D, since that's probably their biggest expense. (Pfizer's Annual Report for 2009 says $7.8 billion in R&D expenses.) So the high drug costs are funding more drug research. Where do they get R&D money from, after all, if not from drug sale profits?

      Put another way: if you cut drug company profits, are they going to make up for it by cutting dividends and executive salaries, or by cutting R&D and releasing fewer innovative drugs? Take a guess. If you want to cut drug costs, you have to cut R&D costs – like by making drug approval trials much, much cheaper.

      --
      MediaWiki developer, Total War Center sysadmin
  26. WWKMD? by macraig · · Score: 1

    What Would Karl Marx Do? It's precisely bullshit like this that provoked Marx and others to try to imagine alternative economic systems based on objectivity rather than emotion and greed. The ONLY reason there's even an argument is because we tolerate people and businesses setting prices based on everything except the actual cost of manufacture. Maybe the debate should center on whether it's ethical to allow the same product to be sold at different prices in different locales? Big Pharma, I'm looking at YOU.

  27. How to challenge the copyright argument by roguegramma · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I would challenge the argument that the Omega is copyrighted by pointing out that it was put on the product by the manufacturer, and the right to use the product was acquired by a legal purchase, and moreover exerting that right is indivisible from the product and thus the logo.

    --
    Hey don't blame me, IANAB
    1. Re:How to challenge the copyright argument by Tiger4 · · Score: 1

      Further, since the product was legally purchased from the manufacturer, and the manufacturer was paid and no other license or distribution terms were in effect at completion of sale, the product is the legal property of Costco, and Costco has the legal right to dispose of that property at its own discretion.

      Omega is free to repurchase on the same basis as any other Costco customer, but they are not entitled to preferential treatment.

      --
      Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
    2. Re:How to challenge the copyright argument by Tiger4 · · Score: 1

      This is classic grey marketing. Cameras, autos, watches, etc. have done it for years. Books and videos too, obviously.

      I could see Omega witholding warranty services. Or treating these as if they are "used" watches, not new, since the consumer would be the second owner from Omega's point of view.

      Past that, tough luck.

      --
      Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
  28. If a sale first occured outside the US, by rollingcalf · · Score: 1

    ... and the foreign sale was authorized by the copyright holder, isn't that the first sale?

    If the authorized foreign sale doesn't count under US law, the copies made abroad should not get copyright protection when outside the US. The copyright holders should not be able to enjoy this "have your cake and eat it too" situation where they receive copyright protection abroad (under international treaties) while selling it, and then get to block importation into the US by making the foreign sale not count as a first sale.

    --
    ---------
    There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
  29. How Omega can fix things without losing the case by $criptah · · Score: 1

    Omega is should stop whining and follow footsteps of companies like Rolex.

    In the world of luxury watches it is all about prestige. Rolex watches cost probably around $500 to make and yet the cheapest models sell for 10x. On top of that Rolex will refuse to service any watch with non-Rolex parts. Combine this with regular prices increases and you can produce millions of watches which are sold at a high price. Sure, laws vary from country to country but I dare you to find brand new authentic Rolex watches that are 40% cheaper than comparable models sold at authorized dealers.

    Omega wants to expand the market and they sell their timepieces around the globe. The market is flooded with cheap authentic Omegas to the point where authorized dealers will give you 20% off MSRP right away without any negotiation. And honestly I don't see why not. Why should I, a person living in the US spend $2K on a watch that is sold for $1K in a different world country. If Omega really wants to get a free market, then it should treat every consumer equally regardless of where consumers live. If they cannot do it, then they should stop bitching about gray markets.

  30. yeah but by unity100 · · Score: 1

    the pyramid is too low in height. 7% of population in usa controls 72% of financial wealth for example. i very much doubt that any one of us here will enter that percentage. its already full.

    thats of course, leaving aside the ethics of accepting to live in such a bastardly society, after securing one's butt.

  31. Are you a Ferengi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That reminds me of what was once said about the Ferengi: they don't seek to end exploitation, they seek to become one of the exploiters.

  32. This is not going to turn out well for IP freedom by BlueBoxSW.com · · Score: 1

    This is the type of case they accept simply so they can shut the door on any gray area.

    They are going to rule that the goods can not be brought into the country.

    Please don't get your hopes up that this will lead to any sensible IP reform.

  33. making money the old fashioned way... by meerling · · Score: 1

    Buying something cheap in one place and shipping it to someplace else where you sell it for a profit, even if you have to price it less than the other people at that second location is and has been a mainstay of trade and commerce for at least 6,000 years.

    And no, you don't get to say squat about it if you sell it to this guy for one price, and he sells it somewhere else for another. The fact that you sell in both locations (but at different prices), thus making this scenario a possibility is your own fault. The only thing you can do is sell the same product for the same price in all locations. If you don't like it, get out of the market.

    1. Re:making money the old fashioned way... by Devoidoid · · Score: 1

      That's why we in the US have such a good deal re-importing expensive prescription drugs from Canada! Oh, wait...

  34. Misuse of Copyright by Late+Adopter · · Score: 1
    Costco should have, but did not, argue misuse of copyright. Morton Salt v. Suppiger provides that patent misuse occurs when patents are used to restrain the trade of unpatented material:

    (1) That this use of the patent monopoly to restrain competition in the marketing of the unpatented tablets for use with the patented machines, and to aid in the creation of a limited monopoly in the tablets not within that granted by the patent, is contrary to the public policy of the United States evinced by the Constitution and the patent law. P. 314 U. S. 491.
    (2) The patentee, while engaged in such practice, cannot have an injunction to retrain the making and leasing of infringing machine. P. 314 U. S. 492.
    2. It is a principle of general application that courts, and especially courts of equity, may appropriately withhold their aid where the plaintiff is using the right asserted contrary to the public interest. P. 314 U. S. 492.

    And Lasercomb v. Reynolds explicitly recognized "misuse of copyright" as a legitimate defense analogous to "misuse of patents":

    We are of the view, however, that since copyright and patent law serve parallel public interests, a “misuse” defense should apply to infringement actions brought to vindicate either right. As discussed above, the similarity of the policies underlying patent and copyright is the great and historically has been consistently recognized. Both patent law and copyright law seek to increase the store of human knowledge and arts by rewarding inventors and authors with the exclusive rights to their works for a limited time. At the same time, the granted monopoly power does not extend to property not covered by the patent or copyright. Morton Salt,314 U.S. at 492 ; Paramount Pictures, 334 U.S. at 156-58;16cf. Baker v. Selden, 101U.S. 99, 101-04 (1880).

    Instead, Costco's defense is that 17 USC 109(a) precludes 602(a), which the 9th found lacking on the basis that foreign copies don't qualify as "under Title 17" for 109(a). I can't imagine the USSC reversing that finding, because it would as a consequence allow importation of duplicates made in countries without any IP law, which would seem to be against the intent of 602(a).

    1. Re:Misuse of Copyright by Ares · · Score: 1

      Instead, Costco's defense is that 17 USC 109(a) precludes 602(a), which the 9th found lacking on the basis that foreign copies don't qualify as "under Title 17" for 109(a). I can't imagine the USSC reversing that finding, because it would as a consequence allow importation of duplicates made in countries without any IP law, which would seem to be against the intent of 602(a).

      but if you read quality king distributors, the key to that case hinged on whether the copies were made under the auspices of 17 usc 106. In quality king, scotus held that the copies in question, having been manufactured in the us were indeed made under 106, thus 602(a) didn't apply because of 109(a). the 9th circuit held that the copies here weren't lawfully made under this title. under normal circumstances, i'd agree, particularly given l'anza's arguments in quality king that 602(a) would be irrelevant, in light of 602(b) if 109(a) applied unilaterally. it would be irrelvant (and incidentally, would apply here).

      however, omega has registered a us copyright on the "artwork" and is using us copyright law to enforce that artwork copyright for market segmentation. given the incorporation of the berne convention into us copyright law in 1988, costco could (and should) argue that although the watches weren't manufactured in the us, they were lawfully manufactured under the 17 usc 106, and therefore first sale does indeed apply.

  35. Sorry, but you're probably brain damaged. by kuactet · · Score: 0

    I have to ask: what the fuck is wrong with you? Copyright is a monopoly on reproduction. Okay. What part of buying something and selling it again involves reproduction in any fucking shape or form? Where in this process is the copy made? It's like, you're writing in standard English, but all I read is meaningless bullshit, so I ask again, what the fuck is wrong with you?

    1. Re:Sorry, but you're probably brain damaged. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the hell pissed in your cheerios this morning

  36. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  37. Interesting that this comes up in a week when... by Shag · · Score: 1

    ...overseas discount web retailers have suddenly stopped selling products from a US company which is known for not liking to be undercut. :)

    --
    Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
  38. Go away, goldbug. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gold-based economies are a disaster. Please go read the history of economics in the 1800s and then come back. I recommend coming back under a different user name, since you're going to be too embarrassed to use this one any more.

  39. Applied globally, exhausted nationally? by russotto · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You have to pretty much throw away any pretense of fairness for a doctrine which holds that every copyright applies in every country, but first sale rights (copyright exhaustion) only apply in the country of first sale.

    1. Re:Applied globally, exhausted nationally? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When was the last time governments or corporations cared about fairness towards citizens? Shut up and pay up, livestock!

  40. Bleh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This happens all the bloody time with eBay. Particuarly with nutritional supplements (eg body builder stuff.) But also all that crazy "as seen on tv" junk.

    As soon as someone re-imports it back to the US, the US copyright holder sends a VeRO notice to eBay telling them to remove it, and the next 3 months are spent having the lawyers argue first sale doctrine like in the story here.

  41. Re:How Omega can fix things without losing the cas by IMightB · · Score: 1

    I purchased a Coach purse for my mother in law for $300 in the US as a gift. When we went to Kuala Lumpur on for a v isit, she pointed out the exact same purse at Coach in KLCC went for $1000 US.

  42. EU is as bad (or worse) by tapanitarvainen · · Score: 1

    So, if I live in England, legally buy an Omega watch there, then legally immigrate to the US, it is now a copyright violation to resell that watch on eBay?!? This flies in the face of common sense!

    If you live in England, remember that the opposite is true as well: if you visit USA, buy a copyrighted item and bring it back home, you can't legally resell it there. The EU Copyright Directive explicitly limits the doctrine of first sale to first sales within EU (or actually within ETA, which includes also Norway &c).

  43. Re:How Omega can fix things without losing the cas by penguinchris · · Score: 1

    Yes, but in Southeast Asia you can get a pretty decent fake Coach purse around the corner from the mall for $5-10, the quality of which more than satisfies most people. Some probably think they're real, even, unless the label is misspelled. You can get fake Omegas and Rolexes for about the same price, too, though in that case the quality is usually visibly awful and (assuming it works in the first place) will last a couple weeks at most.

    So who is going to be buying the real ones? Two groups of people: those who have enough money that the difference between $300 and $1000 is not terribly important, and tourists who think they're getting a great deal on everything simply because they're in SE Asia and haven't done their research. Of course, the tourists are more likely than locals to fit into the first group as well. This is ironic... more on that later.

    That said, you *will* get great deals on high-quality, non-counterfeit clothing and the like in SE Asia if you're smart about it. For example, in Chiang Mai, Thailand I picked up some incredibly nice dress shirts from a London label for around $15-20 from the clearance section (normally $30-40 which is still good). It was a bit of an impulse purchase and I didn't do any research regarding them until afterward, but it was obvious that they were good quality, nice-looking shirts, sold in a reputable high-end department store in a mall, and that compared to prices I'd seen for similar quality in the US it was obviously a steal. I looked up the company later and found the same shirts (the next season's version, anyway, which were basically the same) selling for $200-300 on the internet.

    It's definitely hit or miss, though... certain overtly "designer" things like Coach purses, high-end electronics, etc - luxury goods, not just "nice" versions of everyday stuff - cost about the same, or more, in SE Asia and the US. That includes things like expensive watches, other than Omega apparently, as the parent described.

    Now the ironic part - certainly a large percentage of people who are in a position to afford Omega watches and the like in these countries where they're sold more cheaply are foreigners, for the reason I described earlier. Dropping the price from $2000 to $1000 doesn't make much of a difference to the locals, but will entice a lot more foreign tourists to buy one - people who are fairly rich but who wouldn't have paid full price back home.

    For most things, price disparity depending on the local economy makes a certain amount of sense. People have to be able to afford your product. But when you're selling a purely luxury product, the market doesn't really support such price disparity. Omega brought this upon themselves... they are severely hurting their image not just for the stupid lawsuit, but also by exposing the fact that they greatly discount in other countries. Personally, if I was ever in the position of being able to afford an expensive watch (likely never, to be fair), I would have gotten an Omega over anything else (partially due to James Bond product placement, but also because they look great anyway), but their status in my mind has now dropped considerably.

    With a global market and the internet, luxury goods companies are in a lot of trouble.

  44. Re: Legs by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    Let's back down a min from calling everything "invented". I've had "crazy muscle twitches" that were funny, but not fake.

    I vaguely recall there being one such event that has to do with low magnesium.

    And therein rests the second half of the argument. Sometimes we *have* cures for stuff! But since it's old enough to be cheap and not Extortionable, the reason those drug CO's have huge ad budgets is to invent *alternative* versions of the *same* drug so they can *remarket* it!

    Your leg going all twitchy on you? Dig around in your vitamin collection for one with high magnesium and take 3X the standard dose. Skies Alive, THREE TIMES!? Yes... because by definition of something being available OTC it has to have a safety profile where even something like 8 times the recommended dose won't do more than make you uncomfortable in most cases. The dividing line to be Prescription Only is when the dose is calibrated sharply enough where a double dose may be tricky.

    So take your 3X vitamin dose and watch your twitches go away. But that's no fun for board meetings is it?

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  45. Maybe Costco should grind the logo off by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

    "That little doodle" looks like it is only a very shallow engraving. If Costco loses the lawsuit, I guss they could remove the logo in question without doing much damage to the watch ;-)

    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
  46. This has been going on for years by Whuffo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the past, I owned / operated a small electronic sales / service store in a smaller American town. Life was good, but the revenue from TV repairs wasn't quite enough to keep the business going. People were asking for high-end car stereos so I looked into becoming a dealer for a Japanese manufacturer. The requirements and restrictions they wanted were unacceptable and the wholesale pricing they offered was far too high.

    What ended up being the solution was to purchase this company's products in Britain at retail and have them shipped to this country. Even after the currency exchange fees and shipping the cost was about half of what the company wanted me to pay for those items. That was fine with me and I sold them on to end customers at just under what that company wanted me to pay them as the wholesale cost.

    It wasn't too many months until an electronics dealer in another town discovered that I was selling these car stereos for less than he was paying for them. He contacted the manufacturer and complained and they sent me a letter demanding that I conform to the minimum selling price or face losing their wholesale pricing. In my reply to them, I believe I suggested that they do something sexually improbable to themselves. When they threatened to sue, I just put their letters in the trash - I had no contract with them and didn't purchase anything from them so they could just go F themselves as far as I was concerned. I never revealed where I was getting their products and a lot of happy customers bought and enjoyed them.

    Was I doing something wrong? I suppose it would depend on who you ask. I was happy; the additional profits were most welcome. And the customers were happy because they got a great deal on their new car stereo. Anyway, those stereos were what is commonly called "gray market" goods. That's a curious designation - the only "law" that was being violated was a dealer agreement that I wasn't a party to. If that manufacturer would have had their own way, my customers would have paid twice as much for their car stereos. Some might say that the stereo manufacturer was engaging in price fixing.

    The whole idea of a producer of goods being able to dictate what those goods sell for at retail is a curious concept. It's legal and American law allows "minimum selling price" agreements. But is it good for consumers? Or is it just another way that corporations take advantage? That stereo manufacturer was happy to take the British price for those stereos but somehow when I sold them in the USA at a profit they felt that they were being harmed.

    These anti-consumer agreements are everywhere - but nobody will tell you about them. Next time you're shopping for a deal on some item and notice that it's exactly the same price at every dealer you check - you're looking at a "minimum selling price" item. Nobody will give you a discount because if they do their source of supply will be cut off. So when you buy an Apple product - or a Timex watch - or hundreds of other items you're paying a higher price than the dealer might offer you. What does it mean for competition when all competitors have to sell at the same price?

    There's no such thing as a "free market" when a third party to a sales transaction can dictate the terms of that transaction. Look around you and you'll see this kind of consumer abuse everywhere. We've been putting up with this for a long time - it's time for a change and I hope Costco can make a start at changing this situation.

  47. I thought I was buying a watch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought I was buying a watch. And in any case, I can resell a times newspaper no problem. that's copyrighted. same with region 1 DVDs

  48. Wrong summary by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 1

    The article summary here is totally wrong. From TFA, this is about Omega's ability to block Costco, etc. from selling authentic Omegas on the resale market at below what Omega wants the price to be at jewelry stores (similar to the expensive wine resale embargoes where they'll say stuff like "price too low to print!" in the advertising).

    --
    stuff |
  49. Re:How Omega can fix things without losing the cas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I traveled in SE Asia I observed this as well: On several occasions items were more expensive there than in the U.S. Of course most of the stores I visited where next to my five star hotel and I am not sure if prices reflected the location.

    Overall, items that are truly luxurious are priced the same way across the globe. I visited Land Rover dealerships and luxury stores where prices were not that different from what you see in U.S. cities. For brands like Gucci, Louis Vitton, etc. price is everything. They will never discount, they will never go on sale. In fact, some makers produce only a certain number of specific items to ensure that demand is greater than supply. I suppose that if you sell quality watches and shoes that are hand made in the U.K. or Italy it makes sense -- you want to differentiate yourself from the rest of the world and you do provide quality jobs to people in Western nations.

  50. and you know.... by vuffi_raa · · Score: 1

    I really enjoyed watching pawn stars and antiques roadshow before I knew it was a show about criminals breaking copyright law.

  51. Pharma profits are larger than R&D expense by sjbe · · Score: 1

    In large businesses, profit is reinvested in the company.

    Not necessarily. It is often distributed as a dividend or used to repurchase stock. Very substantial sums are used for these purposes in many cases.

    A few percent might go to bonuses for executives

    That is by definition not profit. A bonus is an expense. The company does not in any way have to make a profit to pay a large bonus to an executive. (Disclosure: I'm a certified accountant)

    In the case of a drug research company, much of the profit probably goes into R&D, since that's probably their biggest expense

    "Probably"? Why not look at an actual income statement? The largest expense for large drug companies is sales and administration (SG&A). In the case of Pfizer. SG&A for Pfizer in their most recent quarterly report is almost double their R&D costs.

    Furthermore it's not actually accurate to call R&D reinvested profits. R&D is a cost just like salaries. It's one with a lot of discretion in it but it is an expense and does not require profits to incur that expense. In fact most drug companies incur substantial loses due to R&D until they have one or more salable products. Ultimately the company must be profitable to sustain R&D expenses but that doesn't change the accounting treatment.

    So the high drug costs are funding more drug research. Where do they get R&D money from, after all, if not from drug sale profits?

    Careful - you can fund R&D with low cost drugs too, you just have to sell larger quantities. It's easier with a high profit margin but not absolutely required. However in NO large pharmaceutical company is all the profit plowed back into R&D. For Pfizer their Net Income after tax in 2009 was almost double their R&D costs. That means there is plenty of room for prices to come down without Pfizer actually needing to touch $1 of their R&D expense.

    Put another way: if you cut drug company profits, are they going to make up for it by cutting dividends and executive salaries, or by cutting R&D and releasing fewer innovative drugs?

    The fact that drug companies might choose to overpay executives and hurt their future prospects is an issue I'm willing to let the shareholders deal with. A drug company that makes a habit of cutting R&D as a percentage of revenue is going to find itself in trouble sooner or later.

    If you want to cut drug costs, you have to cut R&D costs – like by making drug approval trials much, much cheaper.

    No, sorry your logic doesn't hold. An executive MIGHT chose to cut R&D but as I've established before, profits greatly outweigh R&D expenditures for large pharma companies so there is plenty of room to cut prices before there is an actual need to cut R&D. If a drug company cuts R&D, then they are running the risk of having no future products to sell - basically trading future profits for immediate profits.

    Look, I don't actually have a problem with pharma companies making a handsome profit. They're taking a lot of risk and should be rewarded for success. But don't pretend that the drug industry isn't highly profitable and some of those profits come at the expense of people's lives. To some degree that is necessary but at the end of the day treatment of disease is the goal, not profits.