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Call In the Military To Blast Rogue Satellite?
coondoggie submitted a follow-up to the tale of the wandering satellite that might collide with other stuff in orbit. He asks "Will the military need to be called in to blow up the rogue Intelsat satellite meandering through Earth's orbit? Or maybe a NASA Space Shuttle could swing by and grab it? You may recall that in 2008, rather than risk that a large piece of a failing spy satellite would fall on populated areas, the government blasted it out of the sky. The physics of such a shot were complicated and the Navy had a less than 10-second window to hit the satellite as it passed over its ships in the Pacific Ocean. But it worked. Now word comes that a five-year-old Intelsat TV satellite is meandering in orbit and attempts to control it have proven futile. At issue now is that the satellite could smash into other satellites or ramble into other satellite orbits and abscond with their signals."
Well, I guess now at least we know what the launch of that secretive X-37B Air Force shuttle was for. So we should be safe, assuming that a PS3 update doesn't screw up its aiming system.
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Call In the Military To Blast Rogue Satellite?
Look at it this way, they've already demonstrated to the rest of the world that their toys can knock your toys out of the sky. And that is the unquestioned belief right now which is why China had to run a similar test ... er "emergency to save other satellites." Why jeopardize your status as anti-satellite super power to actually do something positive?
My work here is dung.
As was clearly stated the last time we had this exact discussion:
- far too high for the space shuttle
- most assuredly too high for most anti-sat missiles
Doesn't come anywhere close to geosynchronous orbit (22,000 miles high)
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Stuff does not deorbit like a syfy movie.
I would think the tightly contained 1 big bit of a satellite is much safer than the thousands of little tiny parts in all sorts of orbits you are going to get if you try and destroy the one big bit.
With "privatize the space industry" all in vogue these days, the government should issue Satellite Hunting Licenses to private companies, with $$$ prizes for taking it out.
Let the private sector nail that varmint!
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The part about the shuttle is obviously a joke, right? It can barely make it to the LEO, it is not able to reach a very highly located geosynchronous orbit. + why would you want to risk the lives of the crew and send a completely crazy unscheduled mission? And for some cheapo (in space terms) comms satellite? If they will send anything, it will be an unmanned mission, but even this is unlikely.
The US doesn't appear to have a system capable of destroying something at that orbit.
Now the first paragraph in the article is just full of ignorance.
"Will the military need to be called in to blow up the rogue Intelsat satellite meandering through Earth's orbit? Or maybe a NASA Space Shuttle could swing by and grab it?"
Again, the military hasn't demonstrated the ability to hit things in that orbit. The Shuttle can't go that high.
The F-15 launched ASM-135 ASAT - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-135_ASAT - could go up to 350 miles.
USA-193 was destroyed at 130 miles
Galaxy 15 is at 22,230 miles
The wayward satellite is in (or near) geosychronous orbit (23+K miles up). The shuttle cannot
reach that orbit, being limited to a couple of hundred miles altitude. Similarly, the anti-satellite
weapons are only designed for low orbit satellites (spy satellites and other military targets).
Now, if we had ever gone ahead and build the interorbit taxi/transport as an adjunct to
the space station (either robotic or manned), we would have a solution to the problem.
Right now we are stuck.
Dr. Frank J. Nagy Fermilab Computing Division Authentication and Directory Services Group
But maybe a ghost can give advice to fire more accurately using only your brain.
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Long answer? No. And this is why.
This satellite is in geosynchronous orbit. A shuttle mission is not an option, the orbit is to high. Retasking an ICBM or other missile to intercept is not an option, the orbit is to high.
Lasers could be an option, if one existed with the right power and accuracy. This thing is thousands of miles farther than any destructive laser has ever been targeted. Then you have to deal with not just a meandering satellite but possibly a cloud of debris capable of knocking out other satellites in geosynchronous orbit.
What if everyone on earth pointed their laser pointers at it at the same time? It would have at least as good a chance as sending the space shuttle.
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
When China does it, the world protests. all the space junk created. However, when the US does it, it's to save other satellites.
The US did it before China and people were very critical:
The official explanation – that the US wanted to prevent the toxic contents of the spacecraft's fuel tank from hitting the ground – seems a bit thin, according to James Lewis, director of the technology and public policy program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Thus critics from around the world have speculated about ulterior motives, ranging from a desire to test US ballistic missile defenses to poking China in the eye.
It's a sort of anti-satellite arms race and status thing between two super power. Or in playground terms, the two assholes are having a dick measuring contest.
My work here is dung.
Blowing it up would create a huge cloud of debris...very bad.
It's in geostationary orbit (~22000 miles), so it's way beyond the shuttle altitude.
Maybe somebody could develop a small space "tug" that could be launched to intercept it, and gently push it out of the way?
Probably a lot harder to actually do than to speculate about, and it would probably take years, and cost millions.
So...no easy answers.
... nuke it!
Well, the two shots were Apples and Oranges.
USA-193 was in a decaying orbit at 130 miles and most of the debris de orbited within a couple weeks. It was hit by a small SM-3 surface to air missile, 21 feet long, 3,000 pounds
FY-1C was in a stable polar orbit at 537 miles and it's destruction increased the amount of space debris by 12%. The missile that hit it was a DF-21, 35 feet long, 30,000 pounds
Okay I'm not an expert on how they get satellites up to geosynchronous orbit, but it seems to me the most expedient way would be to re-purpose what ever delivery system they use to get the things up there in the first place.
The amount of debris generated would further 'pollute' the orbit around earth....
Please help metamoderate.
The US tests during the Cold War? Or the more recent US test that used no explosives and did not create any space junk*?
* Rather, the satellite was so low that the "junk" immediately de-orbited and burned up.
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Good god, man, cable TV signals are at steak here!
Let's not limit ourselves just to worrying about Food Network. Don't be a chicken, there's a whole world of television programming.
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Thanks. I came here to ask whether this didn’t just increase the space debris and your comment pretty well answered my question.
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ok, other already pointed that the shuttle and military interceptors can't reach geosychronous orbit, but about satelites that are already there ?
isn't there any old, almost decomissioned satelite near that orbit that is:
a) still under control from ground station
b) with fuel enough to manouver to galaxy 15's orbit ?
it doesn, t need to be a big impact, just a slow relative speed collision to nudge G15 to either deorbit it or send it to a lagrange point.
What ? Me, worry ?
In case you don't remember, stuff traveling at orbital velocities is positively lethal to spacecraft. The extreme energies involved in these kinds of impacts is enough to send very high velocity fragments in all directions. Sure, some of it will de-orbit, but most will end up in fairly stable orbits that will EVENTUALLY intersect all the other satellites up there. So blowing up one rogue satellite makes one very annoying but eminently predictable problem into a thousand lethal and unpredictable problems.
Last February, a Russian satellite hit a commercial Iridium satellite, and the resulting debris cloud (estimated near 600 pieces in various orbits) has been a HUGE headache for everyone in similar orbital altitudes.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123438921888374497.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29147679/
In 2008, the US got criticized around the world for blowing up a falling satellite because of the health threats of hydrazine if it landed in a populated area. Aside from complaints about military showboating, there were many scientists who complained about the resulting orbital debris; however, in reality it was a very low-altitude explosion and the debris cloud did de-orbit very quickly (unlike a geosynchronous orbit explosion, which would leave practically permanent debris due to the orbit well above any appreciable atmospheric drag).
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6712/is_35_237/ai_n29417848/
Read here for some details on the general problems with orbital debris.
http://illuminations.nctm.org/LessonDetail.aspx?id=L376
So no more helpful suggestions like this, please.
--Brandon / Split Infinity Music
"Will the military need to be called in to blow up the rogue Intelsat satellite meandering through Earth's orbit? Or maybe a NASA Space Shuttle could swing by and grab it?
What? The answer is no, and no.
First, this satellite is at geosynchronous orbit altitude. That is a hundred times higher than the altitude of the satellite that was downed by the ground-based missile. You can't reach it with that weapon, and you absolutely, certainly can't "grab it" with the space shuttle. No. Not even close. Not even close to close.
Also, note that the satellite that was downed was in very low orbit. The significance of that was that all the pieces of it were in very low orbit, and hence they decayed in the atmosphere within a very short time of its destruction. The very worst, stupidest possible thing ever to do would be to "blow up the rogue satellite," because debris from a blown-up satellite in geosynchronous orbit would not decay, but would stay in the geosynchronous orbit pretty much forever. This would be a very bad thing.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Buck-Henry has the plans already drawn up... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark_(TV_series) "...Quark is an American science fiction situation comedy starring Richard Benjamin ... May 7, 1977 (canceled in April 1978). Quark was created by Buck Henry, ...The show was set on the United Galaxies Sanitation Patrol Cruiser, an interstellar garbage scow operating out of United Galaxies Space Station Perma One in the year 2222. Adam Quark, the main character, works to clean up trash in space by collecting "space baggies"..."
Actually, space debris will clean itself up over time... the question is just how long it will take.
Launching a "space bulldozer" would then require periodic refueling, add in the risk of the space dozer itself becoming an orbital hazard (do you think orchestrating collisions between the space dozer and its targets would be easy and reliable?)... it's not exactly a feasible solution at the moment.
What you're suggesting is a bit like suggesting that we keep a refueling tanker in the air at all times, just in case any commercial jets run out of fuel.
http://xkcd.com/681_large/
In particular, look at the panel of Earth, which is under Uranus and Neptune, lower right.
Geez, XKCD should win the Pulitzer Prize for this graphic. If a picture is worth a KiloWord, this is worth a MegaWord of explanation. This should be required viewing in all 8th Grade science classes.
"Be vewwy vewwy qwiet! I'm hunting for satewwites!"
The first license will be issued to a Maj Gen Fudd, I am sure.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Better nuke it from..... er never mind.
From what I've read, the most severe impact of this drifting, nonresponsive bird is that it is repeating all RF it is receiving, which will not only interfere with any other birds it goes by, but is polluting the spectrum.
So, if this is the worst effect, then just disabling it would be a real plus, and dodging it as G15 drifts out of harm's way is just a matter of waiting.
THIS would be a job for a laser. Cut off the solar panels, burn holes in it until it stops transmitting, it might not take much to kill this bird. Blowing it up just causes a debris field, though strapping or clipping a PAM onto it could let them drive it somewhere safe, like the ocean... Burning up in the atmosphere would be a good resolution right now.
Losing GCCS (or is it WAAS?) is unfortunate, and I don't know if there is a backup. Must be. :)
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
FYI, I am an aerospace engineer involved in the launch industry. Typically, how a spacecraft gets into GEO is a few stage process. First, a launch vehicle (Delta IV, Atlas V, Ariane 5, etc) puts you into orbit. What almost always happens is that the orbit the launch vehicle deposits the satellite into is a geosynchronous transfer orbit. This orbit is only useful as a, yes, transfer orbit out to actual geosynchronous orbit. From the transfer orbit, the spacecraft's own propulsion system then manuevers the craft into its designated position in GEO. But the launch vehicle itself is long gone. It takes all the delta-v the launch vehicle can deliver just to get the spacecraft into the GEO transfer orbit, so it would not be useful for doing anything else in orbit.
The best way to deal with this rogue satellite would be to send out another one to very gently attach itself to the rogue and then push it into a disposal orbit (which for GEO is typically just a higher orbit outside GEO). Blowing up the rogue would only create a huge amount of debris that would then cause problems for basically everyone in GEO, since it couldn't all be tracked or controlled.