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Black Duck Eggs and Other Secrets of Chinese Hacks

Roberto123 writes "Network World offers some insights into the way China infiltrates US organizations, physically and via computer, to steal information. Security expert Ira Winkler says there are far more serious threats out there than the 'laughable' uproar over China's hack of Google."

220 comments

  1. Don't you mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The insecurity expert?

    1. Re:Don't you mean... by CorporateSuit · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Well, Ira is a woman's name after all.

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    2. Re:Don't you mean... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Ira Hayes?

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    3. Re:Don't you mean... by jhoegl · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      From the article, it looks more like Ira Age

    4. Re:Don't you mean... by HopefulIntern · · Score: 1

      Ask her if she's still operating, is in a ceasefire, or is currently active, that should give us some clue.

  2. Hmmm ... by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 2, Informative

    My local mexican restaurant regularly delivers blackened huevos rancheros. I wonder if they're in on this whole "restaurant espionage" thing, too?

    1. Re:Hmmm ... by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That seems to be all the evidence needed.

      From TFA:

      "I can't get black duck eggs in San Francisco, let alone this little piece of crap town in the middle of nowhere." Stan's conclusion was that the Chinese restaurant was a front for a Chinese espionage operation targeting the Fortune 5 business.

      Sounds like this security consultant is pretty quick to assume that we need more security. I wonder why.

      And it's not just that one restaurant. Check out this menu, something definitely smells fishy about it to me. No doubt it's a north korean spy base.

    2. Re:Hmmm ... by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 3, Informative

      I find his statement that he can't get black duck eggs in San Francisco, which has one of the largest Chinese populations outside of Asia, hard to believe. I can get black duck eggs here in San Diego, which is a bit of a cultural backwater compared to the Bay Area.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    3. Re:Hmmm ... by magarity · · Score: 3, Funny

      I can get black duck eggs here in San Diego
       
      As if San Diego wasn't home to the largest base of the US Navy! Coincidence? I think not! My rates for security consultation are quite reasonable, I assure you.

    4. Re:Hmmm ... by sylpherware · · Score: 3, Informative

      Definitely fishy about that menu... IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE FOR A CHINESE RESTAURANT! For $10, (in ANY English-speaking country's currency) that fried rice better be some top-of-the-line rice with corn-fed organic egg cooked to golden perfection!

      Seriously though, this article is interesting in 2 ways. 1st, "black duck eggs" may be a delicacy, but it's not that rare nor it is expensive. The only way that it's not in the SF area would be that it doesn't comply with the food safety code, like a lot of Chinese food. (Just because white folks can't stomach our food doesn't mean it's poisonous.)

      2nd, I actually talked to a guy who enrolled in a Chinese university for their "spy" recruit. He was there for a year before getting an offer to come study overseas. Sometimes we still wonder if he's still working for their government... Anyway, he was saying how all the guys were really plain-looking, and the girls are hot as hell, and very seductive at that too. SO, what you should be looking out for at your work place are: plain-looking Chinese dudes and hot Chinese girls!

    5. Re:Hmmm ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going assume that to get them he would have to actually go into china town. Judging by his chines paranoia he's probably scared someone will mug him and steal the contacts from his blackberry.

    6. Re:Hmmm ... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Americans are more touchy about food safety than most white folks. Teawurst a wonderful german meat spread made from raw pig livers was not available in the USA for many years.

    7. Re:Hmmm ... by russotto · · Score: 1

      Anyway, he was saying how all the guys were really plain-looking, and the girls are hot as hell, and very seductive at that too. SO, what you should be looking out for at your work place are: plain-looking Chinese dudes and hot Chinese girls!

      That only applies if they're "seductive". If they laugh haughtily at clumsy nerd advances and date only tall and/or rich guys, they're not spies. But hot Asian chicks apparently interested in Slashdotters are going to be one of two things... recruiters for the Moonies, or spies for the Chinese.

    8. Re:Hmmm ... by steppin_razor_LA · · Score: 1

      I was looking forward to an interesting article until I read the opening paragraph. /facepalm. This guy is a moron and has nothing of interest to add to the subject.

      --
      Evolution: love it or leave it
    9. Re:Hmmm ... by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

      That might be too obvious. Lots of Chinese restaurants, including the quick take-out ones, have shady back-room business going on. Chinese gift shops in Chinatown most definitely do; several women have told me of how simple it is to get legitimate luxury handbags at a fraction of the price from these places.

    10. Re:Hmmm ... by fishexe · · Score: 1

      My local mexican restaurant regularly delivers blackened huevos rancheros. I wonder if they're in on this whole "restaurant espionage" thing, too?

      But are they duck huevos rancheros? Black regular chicken eggs are nothin'...

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    11. Re:Hmmm ... by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

      It quite common for American restaurants that serve steak and such to refuse to prepare dishes cooked to less than "medium" tenderness.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    12. Re:Hmmm ... by cyp43r · · Score: 1

      The Chinese: effective sources of legitimate luxury goods.

    13. Re:Hmmm ... by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

      I was looking forward to an interesting article until I read the opening paragraph. /facepalm.

      Really? You should know better anytime you see "posted by kdawson".

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    14. Re:Hmmm ... by Zakabog · · Score: 1

      That might be too obvious. Lots of Chinese restaurants, including the quick take-out ones, have shady back-room business going on. Chinese gift shops in Chinatown most definitely do; several women have told me of how simple it is to get legitimate luxury handbags at a fraction of the price from these places.

      Those are counterfeits made in sweatshops. Far cheaper and easier to obtain than stolen legit handbags but illegal to sell due to trademark infringement.

    15. Re:Hmmm ... by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      You can also get them in every little asian grocery store around LA (and there are a lot of them!). I have a friend who would visit from wisconsin and load up on them to take back.

    16. Re:Hmmm ... by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I can't get black duck eggs in San Francisco, let alone this little piece of crap town in the middle of nowhere."

      What a fucking liar! I could get black duck eggs in Central Pennsylvania, FFS! If he can't find the in SF, he's not looking.

    17. Re:Hmmm ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Norfolk is the largest US Navy base. San Diego is a close second.

    18. Re:Hmmm ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But they're made in the same sweatshops that made the original.

    19. Re:Hmmm ... by d'fim · · Score: 1

      But, but . . . the black duck eggs are real, aren't they?
      They couldn't possibly be cheap knockoffs laid by underage mock black ducks in prison sweatshops, could they?
      I demand REAL black duck eggs, dammit!

      --
      Adherence to the truth is a form of disloyalty.
    20. Re:Hmmm ... by TBBle · · Score: 1

      Definitely fishy about that menu... IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE FOR A CHINESE RESTAURANT! For $10, (in ANY English-speaking country's currency) that fried rice better be some top-of-the-line rice with corn-fed organic egg cooked to golden perfection!

      Maybe they're in Hong Kong?

      --
      Paul "TBBle" Hampson
      Paul.Hampson@Pobox.Com
    21. Re:Hmmm ... by Meski · · Score: 1

      Barbarians

    22. Re:Hmmm ... by MoeDumb · · Score: 0

      Stan's conclusion was that the Chinese restaurant was a front for a Chinese espionage operation targeting the Fortune 5 business.

      Did they plant 5 Fortune cookies per hack, or what?

      --
      Mod Me Up. You'll make a grown man cry.
    23. Re:Hmmm ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I lived in Berkeley for 2.5 years. I have personally bought black duck eggs at "Ranch 99" in Richmond and also in a few different smaller shops in Oakland, both just across the bay from San Francisco. I'm pretty sure I've seen them in San Francisco too. This guy is just not trying at all.

    24. Re:Hmmm ... by DZign · · Score: 1

      The black egg part is also mentioned in one of Ira's security books. Seems to me this happened already a few years ago. So while you can find them now everywhere, 5 years ago maybe it wasn't.

      More important detail of this (not mentioned in the article but only in the book): not only did they have these eggs in the middle of nowhere, but they were even cheaper than you would buy them in China.
      So there was no way this was a restaurant trying to run a legimite business (and trying to make profit selling food). The book also mentions that when he asked about the eggs, they noticed he could read chines and they refused to sell food to him and they had to leave the restaurant..
      Combine all these elements, and it's more obvious the restaurant he talks about was just a front end for spying or other activities.

    25. Re:Hmmm ... by clemdoc · · Score: 1

      that's only because of the black eggs.
      black eggs, blue balls, everything's getting so complicated.

    26. Re:Hmmm ... by nomadic · · Score: 1

      And I've never heard of black duck eggs, so I can believe it...

    27. Re:Hmmm ... by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 1

      I'm a little paranoid so I'd prefer to not be too specific about where I live, but I live in one of the largest urban areas in the Old South of the USA and we have a decent sized Asian population here. While I've never seen black duck eggs on the menu of any Chinese restaurant that I've been to here, I could easily go to any of several Asian supermarkets nearby and within 30 minutes buy as many black duck eggs as I want. And I do go to Asian supermarkets from time to time and I do indeed know what black duck eggs are.

    28. Re:Hmmm ... by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      I am reminded of the episode of The Big Bang Theory in which Leonard discovers that his ex-girlfriend, one 'Joyce Kim,' is in fact a North Korean spy who'd just been dating him for information about his rocket fuel research.

      Can't we just go back to a time when things were simpler and it was just hot Russian spies that we had to contend with?

    29. Re:Hmmm ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have black dye at the local grocery near me, too.

    30. Re:Hmmm ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya know, I am suspect of any of those restaurants near Convoy. The food at Mandarin House on 5th is not bad.

    31. Re:Hmmm ... by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 1

      The ones on Convoy are suspiciously near Miramar MCAS, could be fronts for a spy operation.

      Mandarin House is okay, we get take-out there from time to time, but Mandarin Dynasty at University and Normal in Hillcrest is da kine.Try their vegetable Egg Foo Yung sometime.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    32. Re:Hmmm ... by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 1

      I agree. There's a Ranch 99 here in San Diego and they carry black duck eggs too. It's very difficult to believe that the guy couldn't find them somewhere in San Francisco's Chinatown. You can get pretty much anything there, including stuff you probably don't even want to know about.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    33. Re:Hmmm ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think Kearney Mesa is suspect? I eat up there a couple times a week minimum. Dang, and here I thought I was a weenie for thinking the places around El Cajon & 46th were sketchy...

  3. The article draws weird conclusions. by flowerp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My wife has no problems buying black eggs of any kind in asia stores in Germany. Oh, and black eggs can be mailed long distance, it's fermented and thereby preserved food.

    And you really can't conclude from the menu of a chinese restaurant what's going or not going on behind the scenes. I call bullshit on this one. No corporate espionage ring would need to use a "safe house" or "safe restaurant" for that matter to drop off secret information or to secretly meet. It's the information age, dummies!

    --
    --- Eat my sig.
    1. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by sopssa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly, and could someone please tell me how this

      "Don't you know black duck eggs are a delicacy in China?" Winkler said Stan asked. "I can't get black duck eggs in San Francisco, let alone this little piece of crap town in the middle of nowhere." Stan's conclusion was that the Chinese restaurant was a front for a Chinese espionage operation targeting the Fortune 5 business.

      gives the conclusion that it's a Chinese cyber espionage front? I mean, seriously?

    2. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by bearsinthesea · · Score: 1

      FWIW, there is more to it than having eggs, this is just a quote. As I recall, they were selling the eggs below cost, and there were other signs it was not a normal restaurant.

    3. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by sopssa · · Score: 0

      How the hell one draws the conclusion that it's a cyber espionage front from selling eggs below average cost? Yeah, that seems logical.

    4. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      I think the conclusion is that if they serve a rare delicacy, then people from the local R&D department will want to go there to eat, particularly on special occasions. The restaurant could be bugged to overhear details which could be used to replicate research, to find potential spies, or to look for blackmail material.

      It's not a completely unreasonable idea, but after looking up the dish in question, it does seem like a big stretch.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    5. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by cgenman · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that all of the Mexican restaurants around Los Angeles aren't just there to steal the secrets of the movie making industry? Do you think Robert Rodriguez could have developed El Mariachi without Hollywood secrets of formulaic plot and prosaic dialog?

      Sure, there is good reason to defend against state-run hacking. And I'm sure a degree of industrial espionage goes on. But does James Bond set up a chip shop wherever he goes? Do US spies die of hunger if they don't eat at McDonalds every day?

      And you can get black / thousand year old eggs in Asian supermarkets here in Boston. I've seen them on menus under various names.

    6. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or that them being part of organized crime, have connections to get a rare delicacy that other places might not be able to obtain as easily

    7. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by openfrog · · Score: 1

      What do you expect in a chronicle series titled "Microsoft Tech"? From the article:

      Winkler, who considers the attention and outrage paid to the reported attack on Google from inside China last year to be "laughable," says Chinese espionage and cyber espionage is far more pervasive than anyone realizes

      Ah yes, I am supposed to take some weird speculations of Sherlockholmesque quality (they serve black duck eggs, THEREFORE this restaurant is a front!) as being of a much more serious nature than the stand Google took in China.

      Ahahahahahahahaha! Thank you for the entertainment!

    8. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by solevita · · Score: 1

      --- Eat my sig.

      You're one of them!!1eleven

    9. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      It's the traceable information age.
      In fact, flash drive are easily passed, and money must be delivered as cash. Otherwise you get caught.

      Otherwise you would need to deliver the information electronically, and trust your contact to show up with cash.

      Trust isn't these people strong suit.

      Please, don't spout off about stuff you haven't been involved in.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by bearsinthesea · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm not saying it proves it was a spy front or not. I'm saying you are drawing conclusions based on incomplete information. If you are interested, perhaps you want to read more about it in his book.

    11. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Gorobei · · Score: 1

      I think the point is more that most small-town Chinese restaurants in the USA have a completely off-the-shelf menu (hot & sour soup, egg-drop, wanton, etc, General Tso's chcicken, crispy fried beef, etc.) You see unexpected dishes, and wonder if a) these are serious cooks who have set up in the middle of nowhere, or b) this is not a profit-maximizing enterprise.

      Kind of like in New York when you go into a bodega to buy a pick of cigs and notice all the canned food in the store is covered in dust. Obviously not a store that is trying to maximize profit based on moving visible retail goods.

    12. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by PotatoFarmer · · Score: 1

      I think the conclusion is more likely that the people running the place don't really know how Chinese restaurants in Podunkville USA typically operate. Kind of like a restaurant not located on the Jersey shore serving Zima - there's clearly something sinister afoot.

    13. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      That could be the case, and is probably simpler. Living in California, it's not uncommon to see a Chinese restaurant have a menu 90% identical to other nearby venues, but with one or two specialties as well that aren't as easy to find. Those specialties will often trigger people to pick them out for special occasions.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    14. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      WTF. Century eggs are to Chinese people what pickles are to Americans... they're not a rare delicacy at all. You can make them in your own home. You can buy them at the freaking Asian corner store. Anyone who fails to find a century egg in San Francisco is a real moron.

      And organized crime? Give me a break. If you see sardines in a grocery, do you jump to the conclusion that it's operated by the Mafia?

    15. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      No corporate espionage ring would need to use a "safe house" or "safe restaurant" for that matter to drop off secret information or to secretly meet. It's the information age, dummies!

      Right. It's the information age. Most counter espionage measures are going to be in the cloud. Networks will be sniffed. Phone conversations overheard. Routers watched. Traffic monitored. While transfer in the information age is quick, sneakernet still has its advantages. You can know if anybody has looked at or copied your data because they'll have to stop your person and get the files from them. Knowing that that method of transfered has been compromised, you can then switch to a different one. Internet age data transfer, like encrypted radio communication during ww2, has the disadvantage of that you don't know if the enemy is also getting it. If they are, and are better at code breaking than you are at code making, they have a constant stream of information. And when you are up against the government, guess who is going to have better people and gear when it comes to espionage?

      I'm not saying they don't transfer secret information over the internet, but don't count meatspace out for not having it's uses still.

    16. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except black duck eggs (or more commonly known as century eggs) aren't really that rare. I can find those in just about any chinatown restaurant/ grocery in NYC; i've definitely seen them in SF too. If the article didn't use such a lame segway, it may be more credible. Instead, it just all sounds like FUD.

    17. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      They are not rare, you can mail them.

    18. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Because they could not just paypal you some money for something?
      Paying more than fair market value for a legal good has long been a way to pay for an illegal good or service.

    19. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You see unexpected dishes, and wonder if a) these are serious cooks who have set up in the middle of nowhere, or b) this is not a profit-maximizing enterprise."

      Orrrrrrrrrrrr they aren't serious cooks who are catering to a specific, profitable demographic. Century eggs can be found anywhere there's a pan-asian grocery store. The article is useless.

    20. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Avidiax · · Score: 1

      I think what the author means by the black duck eggs, is that they are not a menu item usually ordered by non-Asians. The restaurant probably has alot of Chinese-national or ethnic-Chinese customers, and if these customers work at a tech company this would be a good place to recruit.

      Context from "Spies Among Us":

      Stan’s experience as a GRU spymaster became a major factor. With the exception of his final stationing in the United States, the rest of his GRU career was focused on China. He was even stationed in Beijing for four years.

      Even knowing this, I was still confused by a call I got from Stan a day later. “Ira, there are black duck eggs on the menu’ was his cryptic comment.

      “Stan, what the hell are we paying you for?” was my reply.

      “Oh, my naive American friend,” he said with a smile I could feel over the telephone,’ ‘black duck eggs are a Chinese delicacy. I can hardly find black duck eggs in San Francisco, let alone this hide piece of s——— town in the middle of nowhere. And they’re cheaper than they are on the streets of Beijing.”

      He went on to describe that because he saw all those Chinese-American dictionaries on the desks of the employees, he spent some time trying to find Chinese social clubs and other places where Chinese people may congregate. Stan knows the modus operandi of Chinese intelligence agents, which is to find people of Chinese descent and sift through them to see who would likely be susceptible to recruitment. Generally, these are people who have more allegiance to China than their employer or who can be coerced because of family in China. Setting up a gathering place, such as a Chinese restaurant that has hard—to—find Chinese delicacies, is a way to attract as many potential agents as possible. It is also a great place to exchange information and money.

      Stan told me that he found several Chinese restaurants reasonably close to the company facilities. All but one had friendly staff that welcomed him. At the other, he walked in and saw a menu on the reception table that had only Chinese writing. He picked it up and saw that there were Chinese delicacies not normally found in other Chinese restaurants in this country. When one of the workers realized that Stan could read Mandarin, he became distressed rather than gladly welcoming toward the potential new customer who could appreciate the rare menu items.

      Stan’s being followed was a fact. Whether or not this Chinese restaurant was actually one of the more than 3,000 Chinese front companies was a matter for the FBI. Stan was told that the FBI was busy doing counterterrorism work: the investigation of a restaurant was a low priority.

    21. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Funny

      Exactly, and could someone please tell me how this gives the conclusion that it's a Chinese cyber espionage front? I mean, seriously?

      Inside the black eggs were USB drives with google's search algorithms. It's sloppy editing not to include that in the article, but it's even sloppier espionage on the restaurant's part to advertise that fact on the menu.

    22. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Too bad he is totally wrong, they are easy to find in any major urban center and I have even seen white people eat them.

      The fear of him reading Mandarin says far more than serving a common Chinese dish.

    23. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That guy needs to lay off the crack... The article did make me laugh a bit though, it made me think of this..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Probrem

    24. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by mgblst · · Score: 1

      I am sure that based on that evidence, it is enough to blow up the place.

      Well, if you are an idiot. This guy is just saying that you learn to pickup on everything around you.

      The fact that they serve a delicacy may mean you start to pay more attention to the place. Maybe you warn your people to be careful what they talk about at restaurants? Maybe you hire a PD to keep an eye on the place? Maybe you don't sit next to the guys in Army uniforms holding big microphones in your direction? Maybe don't take the hit waitress back to screw her in the secure vault at work?

    25. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

      A lot of folks are concluding that the guy is totally off the mark because of his black eggs theory, but aren't many security researchers really paranoid about this kind of stuff? If that's the case, then I think his assumption would be justified, as unrealistic as it might be. (His assumption is even more valid considering the location of the restaurant...)

    26. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by spinkham · · Score: 1

      Schneier nailed this one recently. Worst case thinking is paralyzing and harmful. It does little but draw attention to the speaker.

      http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/05/worst-case_thin.html

      I don't doubt that espionage is going on, but this article is way light on statistics and proof, and way heavy on FUD.

      --
      Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
    27. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by cyfer2000 · · Score: 1

      TFA is under a blog/column called "Microsoft Tech", now everything is reasonable.

      --
      There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
    28. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Spies Among Us: How to Stop the Spies, Terrorists, Hackers, and Criminals You Don't Even Know You Encounter Every Day

      Black eggs are mentioned on page 164. The author's suspicions were raised by several seemingly innocuous clues, but I didn't find the brief excerpt all that compelling.

    29. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the research is this bad, the rest of the book is probably worse.

    30. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i'm sure the idiot knows the wholesale cost of the eggs too if he can't even find them in san francisco

    31. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by znerk · · Score: 1

      If you see sardines in a grocery, do you jump to the conclusion that it's operated by the Mafia?

      Well, maybe not the Mafia, but spies are, theoretically, a potential factor, there... It seems that sardines are no longer made in the U.S.A. Perhaps our security consultant has a new possibility for manufactur^W finding information about spies?

      That being said, it is still a truism that correlation != causation.

      --
      This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License.
    32. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      I know they're not rare. That's why I called it a big stretch after I looked up the details of the eggs.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    33. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just assumed the espionageoise might like to have something more authentic to eat while conducting their business than a normal American Chinese restaurant would have.

    34. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Israeli intelligence agents have established bagel bakeries all over the world as fronts for their industrial espionage operations.

      Think about it. Who can afford lox any more at those prices, unless there's some big money behind it?

    35. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      No corporate espionage ring would need to use a "safe house" or "safe restaurant" for that matter to drop off secret information or to secretly meet.

      I think the intent was to have a superb restaurant that would lure the techies in so they could have their conversations recorded.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    36. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that the point of having a superb restaurant that lures in techies, is to have a successful restaurant?

    37. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by identity0 · · Score: 1

      Well, his background goes a long way to explain WHY he thinks the way he does, but it doesn't give it any more credence.

      A former spy whose main experience with China is spying on them is going to see conspiracies everywhere. The fact that ethnic minorities seem to be marginalized in Russia would kind of add to that when he sees minorities openly displaying their language/culture. We've had Chinese communities in the USA since the 19th century, and we've not had major problems with them keeping their culture over here.

      Ask him if we should be worried about the ethnic Russian communities in the USA. If I see borscht on the menu, is that a GRU front?

    38. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by identity0 · · Score: 1

      Wait a minute, if he's "former GRU", shouldn't HE be the one being accused of being a spy?!?!

      I smell a disinformation attempt to throw us off the trail.

    39. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by mlts · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The age old slogan of "never underestimate the bandwidth of a van full of backup tapes" holds true today. However, "just" a MicroSD memory card of 32 gigs can hold a LOT of useful information. Said card can be easily put in a dead drop, just like the old fashioned spying using microfilm.

      My worry is that businesses will spend their time protecting (or trying to) protect against remote threats that they won't keep an eye out for the obvious.

    40. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by chronosan · · Score: 1

      What does cured salmon have to do with bagels?

    41. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >

      And organized crime? Give me a break. If you see sardines in a grocery, do you jump to the conclusion that it's operated by the Mafia?

      Well no, but if I see severed horse heads I would.

    42. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      The bagels themselves contain the data! Why else would people bother securing them with lox?

    43. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Sarcasticknowitall · · Score: 1

      The information age it may be, but lets not forget the oldies but goodies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_ink#Modern_relevance_of_invisible_ink_messages

    44. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by JumpDrive · · Score: 1

      Yeah , but if you knew every computer was readily hackable, would you use that for exchanging information?

      But I do love these guys that get all wound up claiming that such and such information offers proof of some conspiracy or guilt. I remember the security manager that worked for my dad's company came over one night. He was absolutely positive that the girls that were in our alley were runaways, because they had on slinky clothing and were smoking cigarettes at such an early age. Hell, she was our neighbor sneaking into the alley to smoke so her Mom wouldn't find out.

    45. Re:The article draws weird conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if he is an expert and makes his living from consulting, then there must be some idiots who are hiring him.

      My guess is it's FOX News.

  4. But did he order them? by Leon+Buijs · · Score: 1

    Makes you wonder why there's a R&D in the middle of Nowhere

    1. Re:But did he order them? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Makes you wonder why there's a R&D in the middle of Nowhere

      Because the manager's obviously like black duck eggs.

    2. Re:But did he order them? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which came first, the R&D or the eggs?

    3. Re:But did he order them? by T+Murphy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because middle of somewhere would have people ready to pull the NIMBY card on any big factory proposal (assuming a factory, although any large facility will bother some of the population). Middle of nowhere will be a lot easier to persuade with the promise of jobs and "the pollution won't be that bad, trust me".

      (This isn't intended to be anti-corporate, I am just coming up with what I think a plausible explanation).

  5. Re:the lede by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

    Yes you beat be to that little bit of BS. I was going to quote it too.

  6. this was in his book by bearsinthesea · · Score: 2, Informative

    The black egg anecdote was in Ira's 2005 book, 'Spies Among Us', which I do not recommend except for some of the stories like that.

    1. Re:this was in his book by ciaohound · · Score: 3, Funny

      So, you'd say this "security egghead" is a bit of a quack?

      (ducks)

      --
      Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
    2. Re:this was in his book by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Not this little black duck.

    3. Re:this was in his book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I were logged in and had mod points, I'd mod you DOWN.

    4. Re:this was in his book by Sulphur · · Score: 2, Funny

      Also a canard.

    5. Re:this was in his book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (ducks)

      Hence the quacks?

  7. I gotta agree. by khasim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And furthermore:

    Besides continually innovating at hacking computer networks in the U.S. and globally, Chinese interests also hack companies physically by infiltrating them with people who can then be recruited as spies, Winkler said.

    Huh? I can see infiltrating them with spies ... but infiltrating them with people who you will then try to recruit to be a spy?

    Isn't that a bit ... stupid?

    1. Re:I gotta agree. by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And furthermore:

      Besides continually innovating at hacking computer networks in the U.S. and globally, Chinese interests also hack companies physically by infiltrating them with people who can then be recruited as spies, Winkler said.

      Huh? I can see infiltrating them with spies ... but infiltrating them with people who you will then try to recruit to be a spy?

      Isn't that a bit ... stupid?

      Not if you know you will be able to manipulate the recruits. China has a lot of control over the lives of those peoples relatives back home.

    2. Re:I gotta agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It runs a high risk of the attempt being discovered, and with it the intent of spying on someone.

      Nobody has any doubts about China not spying, so there's nothing to lose.

    3. Re:I gotta agree. by thesaurus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And this is why we're screwed trying to stop Chinese espionage...our security consultants are frakking morons.

    4. Re:I gotta agree. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      You get someone a job, and them let them know that for certain information there mother won't be hurt. Suddenly they're spies. That may not even realize that was happening until it's too late.

      However the sentence is poorly worded.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:I gotta agree. by stephanruby · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not if you know you will be able to manipulate the recruits. China has a lot of control over the lives of those peoples relatives back home.

      This assumes that all the Chinese expats even *like* their family back home. I can tell you from personal observation that the more a person stays in the US, the less and less they like their family from back home.

    6. Re:I gotta agree. by Nikkos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's one of the key differences between Western/Eastern cultures. We're (speaking as a Western-raised individual) an individualistic society while they're a collective society (and no, this is in no relation to political theories) You choose any banner - be it race, religion, or nationality - and any group of people raised in a collective society will have more people willing to work/sacrifice themselves for the cause than a comparable group of the same size of people raised in an individualistic society. So think about how easy it would be "turn" someone that shares both race, nationality, and culture...

      America (and Britain) with her homogeneous ethnicity (in contrast to nearly any other country in the world) is highly susceptible to this type of infiltration. While China could close the borders and toss any white, black, or hispanic person out on their ass, it'd never fly here - especially after the internment camps of WWII. As such there's no effective defense against this.

    7. Re:I gotta agree. by spazdor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the Chinese government is attempting this kind of extortion on a large scale, we have to assume that some of those attempts will be failures, and that some of those failures will be loud.

      As far as I know, no Chinese immigrant has yet come forward with allegations that this happened to them. Which means either it's 100% effective, or else it's not happening.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    8. Re:I gotta agree. by sortius_nod · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Apart from the, you know, ancestor worship that's part of Chinese culture.

      Your statement is total bullshit and you know it. There is a big emphasis on family within Chinese culture and to say that you just lose it by being in the US for a while is crap. Why do you think that there's such a large Chinese community in the US? Not because they've thrown their culture to the kerb.

      If any threats of family harm come to a Chinese person it will definitely make them easier to coerce.

    9. Re:I gotta agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He can't get blackened eggs in San Francisco? Total fail. No need to read farther.

    10. Re:I gotta agree. by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Sure, but not liking your family, and not minding if harm came to them are two different things.

      Most people, not matter how much they dislike their families, do not want anyone to harm them. Who knows what the chinese are threatening them with. And don't forget how much the Chinese gov has control over its people.

    11. Re:I gotta agree. by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the Chinese government is attempting this kind of extortion on a large scale, we have to assume that some of those attempts will be failures, and that some of those failures will be loud.

      You are right, holding the family at home hostage is just stupid.
      On the other hand - giving them special treatment, like getting the kids into a better school, moving a sick relative up the line for organ transplant, that kind of stuff is easy to do hush-hush.

      And, of course, that's not the only thing they do. They also play on feelings of nationalism. Just because a guy leaves his country of birth for better opportunities doesn't mean he thinks the country is shit, in fact he may even want to go back and if he can contribute to the economic development of the country that may even make it possible for him to go back and get the kind of job that didn't exist when he left.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    12. Re:I gotta agree. by sarkeizen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I really don't know what the mainlands are like but all the HK folk I've met would never pass for collectivist but perhaps that's the (great?) thing about various degrees of consumerism and democracy...it inherently undermines collectivism.

    13. Re:I gotta agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're a China hater. You might be right about family being important in Chinese culture, but it's not worship, by any means. You make us sound like non-humans. I have to try not to get angry at your war mentality, but instead put forth my understanding.

      Family is a different concept in Chinese culture, it works like this: In Western culture, Mother may say one thing, and Grandmother may say another thing, but ultimately Mother gets her say.

      In traditional Chinese culture, and I put a strong emphasis on traditional, Grandmother may say one thing, and Mother will go along with it. After all, she's older. Please bear in mind that with the new urbanization in China, this style is shifting as the fast-paced change in urban society makes it harder for older people to remain saavy their entire lives.

      So, we Chinese are people too. Please be nice.

    14. Re:I gotta agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, it's not an "either or"

      It could be happening on a smaller scale, with solid candidates. And it's not like they can only threaten people back in China. They can also threaten the spies, directly. A good spy organization goes for multiple points of leverage; they never know which will be needed or possible, when they have to be used.

      Absence of evidence is not the same thing as non-existent. God knows... ;)

    15. Re:I gotta agree. by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      In Western culture, Mother may say one thing, and Grandmother may say another thing, but ultimately Mother gets her say.

      Ummm no. In Western culture, I do whatever the hell I want.

      The Chinese have similar problems in this sense to the British royal family. The system worked okay when people had the decency to die before they were 60. Now its just getting stupid and we have to hang on to the lingering obsessions of people born 80 or 90 years ago and rapidly running out of brain cells.

    16. Re:I gotta agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is that Chinese culture is not the enemy here. The main things facing US businesses:

      Issue #1: There is an issue with Chinese espionage, and because a lot of American businesses have been naiive about how rough blackhats can be, not to mention an attitude of "security has no ROI", they have fallen easy prey to any serious attackers.

      Issue #2: China has a strong nationalistic culture. Where our top 10 percent in schools are called names and laughed at (or maybe even medicated to oblivion because they don't "fit in" and like Britney Spears and Lady Gaga like the other kids), their top 10 percentile of students are working for the government in relatively high paying jobs in the hard sciences.

      Issue #3: China's espionage capabilities are excellent, and underestimated.

      So, what can Western interests do?

      1: Go back to basic security principles [1]. Charge them off next quarter's revenue. If shareholders bleat or threaten lawsuits, tell them that "for security reasons" trumps their next quarter's need for profit. Get in some people who know what they are doing, focus on separating critical functions to make it harder to compromise things, and go from the top down. Even the CEO's Blackberry has to be under some type of security policy. A lot of businesses don't do this, then get stung, and wonder what to do.

      2: Minimize the use of I-9s. Yes, they are cheaper, and yes, PHBs have them by the short hairs because if they lose their job, they get sent back home. However, in some cases, it may not be worth it, especially because that I-9 can quit at anytime, return home, and sell anything/everything he worked at in his home country without any IP consequences. If an American works at a domestic firm and blabs about trade secrets, this can be stopped. If someone from Elbonia quits their I-9 position and hands a USB flash drive with backups of the company's trade secrets, there is nothing that can be done.

      3: Get contracts with actual penalties if the OEM/ODM fails to live up to their bargain. If their products are shipped not up to specification, they pay a fine and have to redo products that are passable at their expense. Also, if possible, have one contractor do one subsets of widgets that are used in the final product which are made by another. This way, unless there is collusion, neither company can do a ghost shift making knock-offs.

      4: Know local laws. It can't hurt to have someone in house who is an expert at Chinese law and trade regulations.

      [1]: This means security processes, software and hardware to enforce these, and what to do if something happens. While doing this, it is also a good time to go over other disaster issues, and check to see if the enterprise's backup fabric is up to spec.

    17. Re:I gotta agree. by g4b · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I read his comment, and could not see the hate you read out of it.

      Part of humanity is religion. Why would be worshipping ancestors be any kind of a non human act? The only civilization not interested in worship would be mostly a robot society in my eyes. Even Atheists worship things. Everybody does. And only if it is their individuality.

      I think, what the person you responded to only got wrong, is where it is worship, and where it is respectful tradition to obey. Dead Ancestors are worshipped (oh, and we got that in western culture, too, it only faded away or is semiconcious, but we also still do it in some extent), elders are seen as wiser. However, of course that changes.

      Actually I regard it as a value having a strong family in society - one of western societies greatest illnesses is the alienation to the concept of family resulting in climbing numbers of depression and behavioural disorders.

      To add something to the game, I say, some people actually want to become spies, believe in their system of government, and, use the new power, which is above family or other traditional hierarchies, to be individual. Actually, if you look back to Europe's history, most extraordinary positive and negative people have rebelled against their "closer" social ties by joining a bigger one. Because if Grandmother says something, and Mother is military, Mother does not have to follow.

      So, I don't think, every spy is threatened and acts out of fear. That just simply would not work. You get better spies, if you take the people, who really believe in the same thing you believe.
      I find it a little bit anti-chinese to say, that they only hurt the great western society, because they are threatened by eliminating their family. That may be the case in some cases, but primarily, maybe some of them even only do it to shut up their fathers, or they love their country, or whatever - and want to do it. Think about it. Because all in all we are all humans, and the thing influences us most is our closest relationships. And we dont always love the traditions we are born in.

      Oh yeah, the states do employ spies, too. And it's mostly the weird guys you knew when you grew up, who join such things.

    18. Re:I gotta agree. by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      Actually I regard it as a value having a strong family in society - one of western societies greatest illnesses is the alienation to the concept of family resulting in climbing numbers of depression and behavioural disorders.

      I'd go a step further and say that there is variation among European cultures in the emphasis placed on family, and that those European immigrant groups who placed more such emphasis ended up doing better, and ending up in higher positions in American society.

    19. Re:I gotta agree. by AdamThor · · Score: 1

      I do buy that the parties of attempts like this might be willing to make some noise about it. But who would they start talking to first? I would kinda expect the US Govt to be first in on the investigation of a failed recruiting attempt, and I would expect them to hush it up in order to preserve the investigation.

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    20. Re:I gotta agree. by jvkjvk · · Score: 1

      You're a China hater. You might be right about family being important in Chinese culture, but it's not worship, by any means. You make us sound like non-humans. I have to try not to get angry at your war mentality, but instead put forth my understanding.

      And YOU are way way too oversensitive. Are you trying to tell me that there is no ancestor worship in China?

      Then please explain http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=china+religion+ancestor+worship&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=/

      Please explain to me how the Parent is a "China hater"?

      Please explain how the Parent's post "make us sound like non-humans"?

      Please explain how the parent's post has a war "mentality"?

      Your statemenst seem to belie more about your own personal make up than the parent's.

      Regards.

    21. Re:I gotta agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You get someone a job, and them let them know that for certain information their mother won't be hurt. Suddenly they're spies. That may not even realize that was happening until it's too late.

      However the sentence is poorly worded.

      Until they go to the CIA and make an offer to work as a double agent in exchange for more money or a faster track to citizenship for themselves and their mother (and any other family members they may be interested in bringing over).

    22. Re:I gotta agree. by HungWeiLo · · Score: 1

      Speaking as someone raised in Hong Kong, it doesn't take long to notice that HK people fanatically follow the latest trends in fashion and entertainment. They're far from being an individualistic people.

      In the U.S., people ask "What music do you like?" In Hong Kong, it was more like "What's the popular tune these days?"

      --
      There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
    23. Re:I gotta agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are on the right track. From what I've seen the relatives get higher status back home. Become important people within the government and make more money.

    24. Re:I gotta agree. by sarkeizen · · Score: 1

      First, you *could* argue, etymology/morphology aside that those two questions are semantically identical but I don't really have any large scale data either way on that. Certainly I've experienced cases where it's clear that someone who is asking "What do you like?" is actually asking "What should I like?" instead of say looking for some social touchstone to continue conversation. Conversely when people say "What's popular?" (You'll have to write how they are actually saying it: i.e. jit6 mun4 or is it some HKism. Feel free to use HKCS) it at least seems reasonable that they could be also using it to look for something else to talk about.

      Second, you're confusing "collectivism" - the idea that people subscribe to a high value on interdependence with some kind of value on what are social norms for fashion.

      I'd argue that's it's pretty apparent that these are different things. i.e. I can be interested in what's popular but have no care for the greater good of the people involved. Heck I could actively plot the downfall of those who say what is popular because I want people to follow me. :-)

  8. A friend told me... by Itninja · · Score: 1

    This article reads like those doom-crying rants I've seen on truther/birther/tinfoilhat websites. Seriously? The people down at the local Chinese food restaurant are a threat? And you think this because your former Russian spook friend 'Stan' told you so?? Dude, WTH. And don't even get me started about the various source-uncited claims about Chinese student-spies infiltrating our schools 21 Jump Street style. My god...this is sad.

    --
    I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    1. Re:A friend told me... by Yo+Grark · · Score: 1

      No, what's sad is that you remember 21 Jump Street. :P

      - Yo Grark

      --
      Canadian Bred with American Buttering
  9. Why even risk the possibility? by khasim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not if you know you will be able to manipulate the recruits. China has a lot of control over the lives of those peoples relatives back home.

    Why even risk the possibility that one of them will NOT take the offer?

    Cut out the middleman and simply send them spies to be hired. Spies who have ALREADY agreed to be spies for you.

    1. Re:Why even risk the possibility? by T+Murphy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A company won't likely hire or retain someone who seems to be a spy. Given new hires will get more attention, if they are all spies there is a fair risk of at least one raising suspicion- depending on how connected all the spies are, this can really cause problems for all of them. If China lets the new hires adjust to being a new employee, then pull them into being a spy, they can just focus on the ones who end up in positions or career paths that are useful for spying, and the spies are comfortable enough with their job they shouldn't be drawing unnecessary attention anyways. Also, college graduates have a lot of choices to work with- if they are allowed to settle down a bit, they won't see nearly as many alternatives to giving in to being a spy, should they not be nationalistic enough to like spying.

      Companies aren't likely to hire senior engineers/programmers/etc. with their only work experience being in China- the best way to get someone into the desired position is to get hired from graduation and work up to the position. May as well let the future spy fit in as a typical bright college student, then deal with the spy recruiting phase between them getting hired and waiting until they've been working long enough to have proper access to the desired information or system.

    2. Re:Why even risk the possibility? by Nyder · · Score: 1

      A company won't likely hire or retain someone who seems to be a spy. Given new hires will get more attention, if they are all spies there is a fair risk of at least one raising suspicion- depending on how connected all the spies are, this can really cause problems for all of them. If China lets the new hires adjust to being a new employee, then pull them into being a spy, they can just focus on the ones who end up in positions or career paths that are useful for spying, and the spies are comfortable enough with their job they shouldn't be drawing unnecessary attention anyways. Also, college graduates have a lot of choices to work with- if they are allowed to settle down a bit, they won't see nearly as many alternatives to giving in to being a spy, should they not be nationalistic enough to like spying.

      Companies aren't likely to hire senior engineers/programmers/etc. with their only work experience being in China- the best way to get someone into the desired position is to get hired from graduation and work up to the position. May as well let the future spy fit in as a typical bright college student, then deal with the spy recruiting phase between them getting hired and waiting until they've been working long enough to have proper access to the desired information or system.

      Or you train them as spys from childhood, then send them to USA for college and getting jobs. then, 10 years later after they established themselves, then they start doing their spy work.

      Seems easier to me, in the long run, then risking trying to subvert people later.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    3. Re:Why even risk the possibility? by JumpDrive · · Score: 1

      Because it is so much more fun to call them all spies?

      And they gave our Grand Imperial Wizard such a hard time for being a bigot.

  10. Hmmmm.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and NIPRNET, a defense logistics agency that keeps track of the location of critical military assets

    It's hard to take an article seriously after a basic fact checking failure like that.

  11. Duh! by khasim · · Score: 1

    The spies buy the cheap eggs (because spies have to keep pretending they don't have lots of money) and put the microfiche inside the egg shell and leave it on the table for the "waiter" to pick up and send back to Hong Kong via carrier pigeon.

  12. thousand year old eggs are easy to find by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i dont know about the rest of the article but it is extremely easy to get those black duck eggs in san francisco, los angeles, seattle, wichita KS, bristol UK or any other location in the world that has even a small chinese grocer.

    any half decent chinese restaurant that serves any kind of rice porridge will have a version that includes chopped up black duck eggs in it. if it costs more than $10 youre getting ripped off.

    preserved duck eggs have an extremely long shelf life, so they are stocked all over the place. they are pretty common and dont seem like a rare delicacy at all - although it can be hard to find really good ones.

    anyone who is chinese will tell you this.

    it makes me very suspicious of the rest of the article because that intro part is total bs.

  13. Black Egg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Man, I thought this was going to be a story about how the Black Egg Sample Meal was really just a Camera spying on all the people eating at the restaurant. So much for my business of selling egg-shaped fisheye cameras.

  14. Re:the lede by EEPROMS · · Score: 5, Informative

    Hate to blow you out of the water but the US government does leak private details of foreign companies collected by it's national security agencies. A good example was the US government being caught red handed leaking secret wheat price bids from Canadian companies to local US suppliers collected by the NSA. So if the US is happy to stab a trading partner like Canada in the back what do you think they are doing to none aligned entities like China!

  15. Espionage is everywhere by h00manist · · Score: 1

    The Chinese aren't the only spies in the international game, every country, police force, and big corporation, etc has them. They usually don't kill, torture, etc, just gather and take secret information from one secret vault to another, so it's, erm, somewhat peaceful, really.

    --
    Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
  16. Very confused by chris1403 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I RTFA'ed and couldn't wrap my head around the first paragraph. My mom puts black duck eggs into the porridge she makes every other week or so. I wonder if that means I need to check around the house for dead drops or start questioning visitors about their national allegiances.

    1. Re:Very confused by h4rr4r · · Score: 0, Troll

      You need to kill her right away, and as you are her son you probably should off yourself too, you never can be too careful.

  17. 'from the you-no-like department' by DryGrian · · Score: 1

    It is rare that a /. tagline will make me chortle sufficiently as to draw attention to myself from others in the room. Perhaps it was the sly Asian voice in my head, drawing out the 'like' and raising the inflection.
    Bravo.

    --
    For optimal comment enjoyment, take red pill now.
  18. Re:Well, this is terribly shocking. by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

    It's in the process of coming around, actually. China has been hit by problems of other countries providing unskilled labor for lower rates, resulting in an outsourcing of work. This has cost millions of jobs. On top of that, China is under constant pressure from other nations to allow its currency to float freely, something that it refuses to do, instead setting a narrow range of values within which it can float (0.5% above or below a parity rate set by the Bank of China). Right now, the official rate is around 6.80 to the US dollar, while many estimates suggest that it should be closer to 2 or 3 to the dollar.

    However, doing so would do a great deal of damage to the Chinese economy, causing exports to plummet as costs rise dramatically. While this provides some stability now, in the long run it is probably damaging the world economy, and creating a false impression of strength of the Chinese economy.

    --
    You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
  19. RSS feed excluding kdawson by amirulbahr · · Score: 1

    Okay for some slash-support now. I have added a certain editor to my excludes list in my index settings, however, there is no way for my RSS reader to know this as it just uses the standard slashdot feed. My question is, how do I get an RSS feed that excludes certain editors?

  20. The Chinese are just throwing a wide net by jd.schmidt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    China simply encourages people to go abroad (they have plenty to spare) and keeps on good terms with them. Then agents just keep in cotanct and, by playing on national pride, ask expats what they know about X. (say a new chemical process or code snippet or whatever) It *almost* doesn't qualify as spying, I understand they are fairly upfront and just say stuff like, "we want to make a better car but we keep having problems with the fuel line, how does the company you work for solve this" or "do you have any advice". If they get "secret" information in the process, so be it.

    They don't bother to train spies and send them out because it isn't that type of espionage.

    The issue for us is to understand what is important to protect and what isn't. The Soviets had a great security system, it was so secure they kept their inventions secret from themselves.

    1. Re:The Chinese are just throwing a wide net by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its simpler than that:

      1: Have foreign exchange students wind up in US top tier universities. Each foreign student means one less American in engineering and CS.

      2: Have those students whose education is paid for by the US and Chinese governments come back to China to work. Now, the PRC's army are the best and brightest. Here in the US, a lot of people in the Armed Forces are there because they can't find work elsewhere. Our best and brightest know that you will be under the heel of someone clueless, so they go law and leave the field.

      3: US companies hire I-9s from China. They end up being able to not just steal technology via dead drops, or just copying data and sending it to a FTP server.

      4: Foreigners landing in China end up "giving" their IP they carry with them. That, or "accidents" happen to them or their family. Rubber hose decryption is cheap, and China treats their citizens like cockroaches.

      5: Grab Taiwan back when the US is busy due to dealing with a multi-pronged attack (lots of stuff you can do in most metropolitan areas to screw up things, from jamming a dam's floodgates to full open, to setting all traffic lights to green, and so on.)

      6: Get the internal Chinese economy "hot" enough where they don't need the west.

      7: Make deals with Middle Eastern companies to turn off the oil taps, and just ship to China only, because China doesn't invade their nations without provocation.

      8: Bankrupt the US, and in return for keeping the dollar stable, create highways protected by guards, sentry robots and barriers, so harvests from US farmlands go from the mainland US directly to China, while Americans starve. Irish Potato Famine anyone? Of course, England got their food during that time. Would be the same thing.

      9: Smash up more satellites in orbit after sending enough crew to make a permanent base somewhere. The resulting space debris which would end up being smashed into finer and finer particles would prevent any satellite launches for decades to centuries.

      10: ???

      11: Profit. Don't like someone, chuck a rock their way from space, The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress style.

  21. No black eggs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So you're telling me this isn't about hacking DNA to make black eggs?

    Well, damn.

  22. Can't Find Duck Eggs in SF? by Mr.+Flibble · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Can't get black duck eggs?

    While I have not looked in San Francisco, I frequently find black duck eggs in packs of six in "Superstore" in Canada. I have been buying them for years to put in my rice porrige (Jook) that I like to make.

    I fail to see how a product available at every Superstore I have been to is hard to find in San Francisco, I mean, SF has the largest Chinatown in North America does it not?

    --
    Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
    1. Re:Can't Find Duck Eggs in SF? by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      Clearly this proves that the spy was not the Chinese restaurant owners, but the man claiming it was odd that they had black duck eggs!!

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
  23. Re:the lede by Gonoff · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They have done similar to the UK. It was the aerospace industry.

    Some readings of UK history post WW2 could be seen to show economic sabotage that only changed when we said that we could not afford to help with Korea.

    --
    I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
  24. WTF by shemp42 · · Score: 1

    I thought this story was going to be about Easter Eggs that were planted by Chinese hackers and were just called black duck eggs. Turns out they are actually talking about black duck eggs...WTF This is one of the stupidest articles i ever read. I think I am more stupid for having read it.

  25. kdawson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    sucks.

  26. Bigotry at its best by hackingbear · · Score: 1
    As one of the commentators put it at the end of the article:

    IMHO, the rest of the article are garbage and show the author's bigotry than actual knowledge. At least, I want to correct the facts about the eggs. "I can't get black duck eggs in San Francisco, let alone this little piece of crap town in the middle of nowhere." You can get the "black duck eggs" in every Chinatown including San Francisco. In fact, most Chinese grocery shops will have them. You just have asked with the right name "Century egg". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_egg

    This article serves no purpose other than to spread propped-up fear and hatry and to promote his own security consultancy.

  27. Oh too funny..... by snero3 · · Score: 1

    Reading TFA has been the best laugh I have had all morning!

    --
    It said "windows 98 or better" so I installed Linux
  28. RACE CARD RACE CARD RACE CARD by spazdor · · Score: 1

    But that wouldn't afford us the luxury of seeing "POTENTIAL CHINESE SPY" in every single Asian face we encounter.

    Yeah, I went there. Someone had to.

    --
    DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    1. Re:RACE CARD RACE CARD RACE CARD by Jawnn · · Score: 3, Funny

      Potential Chinese spy. Potential illegal immigrant. They all look the same to us here in Arizona.

    2. Re:RACE CARD RACE CARD RACE CARD by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      not to mention that the spies would not have to be asian. get any random group of 100 tech students, offer to pay off their student loans and get them a new house in exchange for industrial espionage, and you will always get at least one taker.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    3. Re:RACE CARD RACE CARD RACE CARD by spazdor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The trick is being certain that none of the other 99 will go to the cops - or worse, to the organization to be spied on.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
  29. No Western Industrial Espionage by davidbofinger · · Score: 1

    the U.S. and other countries spy on each other all the time, but the U.S. would never spy on Toyota and share that intelligence with General Motors

    And we know this how?

    1. Re:No Western Industrial Espionage by rig_uh · · Score: 1

      Example of alleged recent US espionage: Hilton accused by Starwood. It's extremely common for US firms to hire ex-employees of other firms to achieve a similar thing to what the Chinese are accused of here.

    2. Re:No Western Industrial Espionage by dlgeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's a huge difference between one company spying on another and a government spying on foreign companies then passing the information to domestic ones. The latter case is the one being discussed.

    3. Re:No Western Industrial Espionage by rig_uh · · Score: 1

      Not really - the motive is the same, giant corporation taking secrets for commercial benefit vs giant corporation (which happens to be owned by the Chinese government) taking secrets for commercial benefit. The Chinese government, with its many state-owned operations, is not equivalent to the US government - the Chinese government as much concerned about running businesses as it is about governing.

      Note that I'm not condoning either the Chinese or the US behaviour, I'm simply trying to inject some perspective into the current debate which often consists of hysterical 'us and them' finger-pointing, just as used to occur with the Russians who the US now gets along quite well with. It all reminds me of Orwell's "We're at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia."

      To provide an alternative and perhaps more relevant example of non-Chinese industrial espionage, the US accused the French government of industrial espionage in the 90s, and vice versa.

  30. You trust Russians?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "An investigation revealed the employee was calling an official in a Chinese consulate known to be a Chinese intelligence agent."

    Please, please don't underestimate the intelligence of Chinese intelligence!

  31. Network world is a tabloid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know this is slashdot, but quoting network world?. Please, I sometime tell people I read slashdot.

  32. Re:the lede by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

    And keep in mind, the government bailed out GM and other American car companies. To not share what they know with their investments when the other guys are? That would just be downright investing stupidly, even by government standards. Sure, questionable as far as ethics go, and maybe international trade, but when did those become concerns for governments?

  33. What the duck? by XiaoMing · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm not sure if the author of the article is actually a moron who can't shop and also a complete racist, or smart enough to realize his article would have no readers without putting in a culturally ignorant title, but I'd like to know where the hell he has been shopping in SF.

    First of all, you can get black duck eggs damn near everywhere. I can get them in Fremont, Sunnyvale, or Cupertino, California at a variety of locations (Lions, 99Ranch, etc.), and I'm PRETTY sure you'd be able to find it in one of the biggest Chinatowns this country has to offer.
    Hell I live in Madison, Wisconsin now and I'm 10 minutes (walking distance) away from a run down Chinese grocery outlet the size of a 7-11 that sells black duck eggs, and two out of the three crappy fast-food only takeout restaurants here serve porridge with black duck eggs.

    To use decades old "cultural insight" that black duck eggs are a "Chinese Delicacy" without realizing that within the last two decades foods and goods Chinese people have only heard about in stories have become commonplace items not only in China, but also internationally as exports, is just pathetic.

    But I guess there really was no other way to emphasize the ridiculously commonplace adage--that the human link is the weakest in security--without resorting to making ridiculous and dated cultural assumptions.

    It's alright that he's not too good with cultures and people I guess. I mean, he's Russian after all, they're only good at math and physics.

    1. Re:What the duck? by jambox · · Score: 1

      Don't forget chess!

      --
      You thought you could break the laws of physics without paying the PRICE?
    2. Re:What the duck? by one+cup+of+coffee · · Score: 1

      Are you fucking serious?

      You're calling a guy racist for being wrong about black duck eggs? Or are you more upset with the fact that he's stating the obvious? That the Chinese government which is integrated into Chinese corporations and which are often the same entity is spying heavily on the US and other western countries? That's racist? Really?

      Did the author make any broad disparaging generalizations about Chinese people? Did he list some Chinese stereotypes as reasons as to why we shouldn't trust the Chinese? No, but you somehow managed to do both of those things at the end of your post where you blatantly, racistly I dare say, attack the author for being Russian.

      I'm guessing you're probably a hack, and a poor one at that. How does this stuff get modded +5 insightful?
       

  34. BLACK DUCK EGG SAPPIN' MAH SENTRY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Black duck eggman where is my around cake here spy a lie;

  35. Old stories rehashed? by siddesu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It is very heartwarming to see the stories I grew up with behind the Iron curtain about CIA agents coming in to ruin our happy socialist lives being rehashed on what used to be the "free" side of the said curtain :)

    1. Re:Old stories rehashed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      For a doubly-ironic time, watch the 1982 movie Firefox. Clint Eastwood directed (and starred) in it. His vision of what it's like to travel through a 1980s Soviet airport turned out to be the blueprint for Post-9/11 America's airports, right down to the TSA's Behavioral Detection Officers.

      Catch it tonight with on-demand video from your cable company or streaming from Netflix! ("In Soviet Russia, you watched TV!")

  36. Capitalism or Espionage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damn! This guy screwed up my megalomaniac business ideas!

    Americans love Chinese food! It has lots of flavors, tastes, vegetables, and meats. There are many flavors of dishes. You can have soups, or meats, or eat healthy and have an all vegetable plate.

    My business ideas was to have a chain of Chinese restaurants serving Chinese dishes to local neighborhoods that want to eat good, tasty, and healthy foods - an alternative to McDonald's and greasy hamburgers. I would make a killing!

    But now this guy has to go berserk and draw some crazy far-fetched conclusion that some Chinese restaurant which served "Black Duck Eggs", which was likely opened up as a mom-and-pop shop, by a Chinese-American family that saved up enough money (or borrowed from friends and relatives) to open up a store front, so that they can make enough money to live, and contribute to American society and their local neighborhoods, and send their children to the best American Universities, and pay American taxes - are spies!!

    Can you believe that??

    Yes, sure there is corporate espionage going around. It's been happening since the dawn of time! Companies spy on each other. California is an employment-at-will state. Silicon Valley is the most innovative and dynamic hotbed of technological innovation in the world, simply because employees leave companies, and join other companies, or create new companies. They bring with them their ideas, and knowledge, and energy, and create greater companies. This freedom of movement, is the American way of life. This is the source of America's greatness and power for the past several generations. The capitalist can-do-attitude to get rich, or die trying!

    The Chinese will likely have an easier time to hire the best people and build great companies on their own soil, instead of "stealing" it, and try to copy it, and sell it on the market. This is capitalism.

    Granted - there are some technologies that the Chinese may benefit quicker from corporate espionage - like rocket technology, and space craft technology. U.S. taxpayers spent billions funding the Apollo program to beat the Russians. But they spent that money in the 1960's, when there was no computer microprocessor, or a mature technology industry. Today, the Chinese can just buy this stuff off the shelf. It cuts down their R&D cost to build the rockets and space ships that they want to build.

    The Chinese created their own atomic bomb, and ICBM, and have their own nuclear power plants. They bought the most cutting edge of Maglev technology from the Germans, and built it in Shanghai.

    Whatever they can't build or create themselves fast enough, they will buy and integrate.

    What is this guy going to spew next?
    That Obama is a Muslim and was born in Indonesia?

  37. Re:the lede by sortius_nod · · Score: 1

    This was happening long before bailouts...

  38. Doesn't even need to be that secret by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All it takes is one Chinese employee, employed anywhere in the company to start giving away secrets to mainland Chinese.

    But this is no different from hiring X nationality and then reporting back to their X nationality's homeland either. The reason the chinese are 'the bad guy' here is that they see nothing wrong with doing it.

    In the US, corporate espionage is something you get jailtime and fines for. China... if you were born there and you didn't take your family with you to the US, then the Chinese government has you by the balls anyway.

  39. Chinese espionage is not innocuous by MasaMuneCyrus · · Score: 5, Informative

    The author didn't state it elegantly, but he still made the point -- Chinese industrial espionage is very real, is here now, and it is state-sponsored. China views hacking not only as a fast-track to becoming an industrial superpower, but they view it as a method of becoming a military superpower, too. A good part of China's military buildup involves locating and training talented young people, as well as hiring the already established hacker-underground folk for military purposes. They figure (probably correctly) that they are nowhere near capable of competing with the US military on a technological front, but if they can shut down our command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (C4ISR) networks (not coincidentally, this is also why they developed the satellite-killing missile), then they have essentially shut us down, especially for any military response to an attack on Taiwan.

    Here are just a few examples of the many, many already known about cases of Chinese espionage.
    - The infamous Cox Report (regarding the PRC stealing our most advanced nuclear weapon designs)
    - The well-known Google attacks
    - A Boeing engineer was sentenced to 15 years for espionage, selling rocket technology to the PRC
    - The FBI caught an American with very high security clearance and a Taiwanese-American selling classified information about weapon-sales to Taiwan to the PRC.
    - The British MI5 released a report detailing all kinds of Chinese espionage. For example, high-profile UK businessmen have been approached by PRC spies with lavish gifts which include USB flash drives infected with trojans to steal information, and in 2008, an aide to Gordon Brown had his Blackberry stolen after a sexy Chinese woman approached him in Beijing -- a classic, almost too classic to be true, Soviet-style tactic. Other diplomats, too, have been sexually blackmailed by the PRC to divulge information.
    - Here is a research paper by Northrop Grumman regarding China's cyber-warfare abilities, 88 pages filled with the stuff. Turn to page 67 for a "Timeline of Significant Chinese Related Cyber Events 1999-Present," let alone the details of the rest of the paper which shows the large effort by the PRC to improve their cyber-warfare and espionage abilities.

    Here are some more excerpts:

    MI5 Report

    The MI5 report described how China’s computer hacking campaign had attacked British defense, energy, communications and manufacturing companies, as well as public relations companies and international law firms. The document explicitly warned British executives dealing with China against so-called honey trap methods in which it said the Chinese tried to cultivate personal relationships, “often using lavish hospitality and flattery,” either within China or abroad.

    “Chinese intelligence services have also been known to exploit vulnerabilities such as sexual relationships and illegal activities to pressurize individuals to cooperate with them,” it warned. “Hotel rooms in major Chinese cities such as Beijing and Shanghai which have been frequented by foreigners are likely to be bugged. Hotel rooms have been searched while the occupants are out of the room.”

    1. Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous by Mantrid42 · · Score: 1

      but if they can shut down our command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (C4ISR) networks (not coincidentally, this is also why they developed the satellite-killing missile), then they have essentially shut us down, especially for any military response to an attack on Taiwan.

      So the Chinese are Cylons?

    2. Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget all the SCADA systems that were left for any Joe scriptkiddy to find on the Internet until recently. All it takes is 1-2 valves to be shut, and the mineral oil on a transformer substation overheats and blows up, causing a nice power failure. Now take this power failure and have these happening in every American major city at once.

      Then take other utilities and do bad things to them (leave valves closed or open), and while the US is trying to pick itself up from a disaster, China can easily grab Taiwan, and then make a proclamation that attacking it will be the same as attacking the mainland and will be responded with nuclear capability.

      This is only a matter of time, folks. China is already going through intense nationalism, and all their best minds are going into their armed services. In the US, the best scientific minds are either at the mercy of PHBs, or are forced to become attorneys in order to keep a roof over their heads.

    3. Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous by jandersen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The author didn't state it elegantly, but he still made the point -- Chinese industrial espionage is very real, is here now, and it is state-sponsored.

      I don't think he - or you - has any point besides the obvious. Do you really imagine that guys like you are the only ones that know about these things? Or that China is the only country that does it?

      There is no need to go looking for enemies in China or Russia - they are big nations, and they have a clear and obvious interest in not upsetting the balance in the world too much; if one of the big nations were to fail, it would hurt every nation in the world, so America, Russia, China etc are going to protect each others' interests and stability, at least against major upsets. Would China benefit from America suddenly being relegated to the bottom? Of course not - what would happen to their exports and the stability of their currency? No, China is America's friend, at least in the same sense that your business partners are your friends.

      The real enemies of America (and China, Russia, ...) are the crackpots who are willing to throw away their own life to hurt you, followed closely by conspiracy theorists, that keep dreaming up sensational "threats", but somehow miss the real ones.

      So, how do you know that you are not a conspiracy theorist? Simple: if you are willing to change your opinion in the light of evidence, then you are not one.

    4. Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous by ledow · · Score: 1

      Erm... okay... let's not get too into the hyperbole until we establish, say, what the US / UK have been doing in China too. I think it's unfair to paint China as some sort of evil enemy because they did a bit of espionage unless we always tar every country that does the same with the same brush. I'm *pretty* sure, certain in fact, that the UK and US are doing exactly the same over in China / Russia / Afghanistan etc. and probably a LOT worse. It's just that we don't hear about it all over on this side of the world... somewhere in China is an article about the "horrible" Americans hacking all their equipment.

      Hell, taking it to extremes you could say that the US has even been photographing every inch of Germany and collecting information on their wireless networks to identify the ones that are easy to hack. It was Google, but that's still "the US" in the same way that "China" is expanded to mean Chinese companies, people who sell duck-eggs and everything else.

      I have absolutely no doubt that the Chinese government are trying to hack the US right this second. But I also have ABSOLUTELY no doubt that the US are doing the opposite too, probably worse given the amount of satellites and hardware that run through American supply lines.

      What interests me more is the recent (last 5 years or so) attempts to paint China as some combatant "spying" illicitly on everything, always stated in the tone that a real-world attack is imminent. The British were spying on the Russians, the Chinese, hell probably even the US for decades - everybody knew, nobody really cared. Damn, for most of the war our own spies WERE Russian spies. That's how espionage works - in peacetime (and we ARE at peace with China at the moment) you spy on even your friends and certainly want to know if someone is selling nukes to your neighbours, or is designing a new type of weapon.

      I would be shocked, appalled and disgusted if my government WEREN'T spying on every credible threat out there, whether at peace with them or not. I'm British and I would damn well want an explanation if it turned out that we *WEREN'T* watching the US, or France, or other members of the UN. They sure as hell are watching us from the inside too. I don't see why the hyperbole or picking on the Chinese is necessary.

      If James Bond did it, he would be a hero. Because Xing Cheng does it, it's percieved as a hideous act, a gross intrusion, a build-up to a war?

      "A Boeing engineer was sentenced to 15 years for espionage, selling rocket technology to the PRC"

      BOEING are the culprits then. You don't state if the engineer was Chinese or not. He might well be American, probably was to get past security, but of Chinese family origin - still means he was an *American*. And if credible Chinese rocket technology was on sale on the black market, do you think for a SECOND that the US wouldn't lap it up?

      "The FBI caught an American with very high security clearance and a Taiwanese-American selling classified information about weapon-sales to Taiwan to the PRC."

      An American and a Taiwanese-American. So even the Taiwanese were "infiltrated" and selling their secrets. Strange that considering that "Since the end of World War II in 1945, the island group has been under the government of the Republic of China.". You're either talking ancient history, or crap. And even historically, it would be of great interest to the Chinese anyway, whoever the seller was. If someone in China was selling information about weapon-sales to Mexico, or Canada, do you really think that the US wouldn't be interested in buying them? Actually, in this case, because you haven't stated the time/date of the incident, it could well be more fitting to suggest Hawaii's purchase of weapons wouldn't be of interest to the US. Ludicrous.

      "The British MI5 released a report detailing all kinds of Chinese espionage."

      And you're seriously telling me that MI5 have *never* spied on the Chinese? That they aren't doing it *THIS SECOND*? Damn, what the hell do I pa

    5. Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous by Nyder · · Score: 1

      not going to quote ya, but no shit sherlock.

      You think america doesn't send people to do that to other countries?

      china didn't invent this, this is typical spy work from the beginning of time.

      What this article is, is a fear mongering report attempting to get people against the chinese.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    6. Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all their best minds are going into their armed services. In the US, the best scientific minds are either at the mercy of PHBs

      You say that as if the US armed services aren't also full of PHBs. Having worked for a defense contractor I can assure you that PHBs aren't simply an artifact of private industry. They're everywhere there's a safe, cushy jobs with fat contracts for slim deliverables.

      Consider also that our bright minds in the defense industry are making stealth planes that have never been used in Iraq or Afghanistan, meanwhile 19 year olds are coming home with their limbs and faces melted off by guys using leftover doorbell ringer parts. The US doesn't care about war, we care about massive pork profits.

    7. Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      For example, high-profile UK businessmen have been approached by PRC spies with lavish gifts which include USB flash drives infected with trojans to steal information

      Of course, the UK being practically a third world country, its top businessmen are going to be so grateful for a fucking USB flash drive.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    8. Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous by gov_coder · · Score: 3, Insightful

      China is not trying to 'kill' America. They are simply trying to steal from it. And that potentially amounts to a slow and painful 'death'. That the author advocates being cognizant of these facts is not ignorance or racism, but rather prudence. Like all facts, they must be balanced with others, for a wise perspective to take form; but surely the scale of Chinese espionage is something all of us can see as a significant problem.

      --
      Rob Enderle's excellent new book: Everything I needed to know about Computer Science I learned in Marketing School
    9. Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous by jandersen · · Score: 1

      China is not trying to 'kill' America. They are simply trying to steal from it. And that potentially amounts to a slow and painful 'death'.

      One of the things I object to is this use of black-and-white, categorical language: "China steals from America" - this is something that alludes to a them-and-us mindset, which is simply wrong. Take another example - recently, when Mossad agents made false, British passports and used them in connection with an assasination, was that an example of "the nation of Israel stealing from Great Britain"? Or was it a case of "agents in the Israel Secret Service going over the line"? Since UK regards Israel as a friendly nation, their criticism was that Israel didn't keep their minions under control. Ans since we have good reasons to regard China as a friendly nation (as you say, they are not out to kill us), the assumption here should be that industrial espionage is not the hostile acts of China against America, but acts carried out by individuals not being kept on a sufficiently tight leash.

      China is still a developing nation - the incredible, financial growth rate is a symptom of this, and it is also one of the reasons why things are not nearly as much under the control of the law as we are used to in the West. The idea that China is a closely supervised society where you can't fart without at least ten government departments recording it is nothing more than nonsense.

      So is industrial espionage by individuals in China a big problem? Possibly - I wouldn't know. I don't think that is our real problem; the financial crisis shows that our biggest problem is the lack of decency and ethical standards that seems ingrained in American-style capitalism, combined with the lassez-faire ideology that has led to lack of regulations. The oil-leak in the Gulf is another good example. This kind of shit has to stop, otherwise we will end up as the run-down neighborhood of the world.

    10. Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous by MasaMuneCyrus · · Score: 1

      I disagree. IMO, this article is a fearmongering report attemping to get people to realize their shiat is being stolen all the time, yo, hire some good security experts, and lock down their secret resources, research, and information before everyone and their brother (or at least our up-and-coming biggest rival China) has it.

      And I think that trying to instill a new appreciation for just how secure we should strive to be with our IT is a noble cause.

  40. Reiterates the simple truth. by MrCrassic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Some people spend so much time concentrating on the technical brilliance involved in computer hacking, they tend to forget that most of the pertinent and crippling attacks are byproducts of simple social engineering and breaches in trust.

    If you work in, say, any financial institution, pay attention to the way your co-workers talk and behave.

  41. Racism by delsvr · · Score: 1

    This is blatant racism and fear mongering, and it's utterly offensive.

  42. OK I RTFA and... by djdevon3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This guy is a quack. The entire article sounds like the ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic that has a bit of technical knowledge. He thought some random Chinese restaurant he had lunch in was actually a front for corporate espionage simply because they had "black duck eggs" on the menu. Seriously. That was his one and only reason. He goes on to accuse the Chinese of planting spies in oil companies and Google specifically. I hope he was actually quoted out of context or we've got some serious mental patients for "security experts".

  43. Not surprise! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    a Microsoft Tech talking about security what do you expect!

  44. Standard espionage. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Following sane security practices, making sure you screen the people you hire and slowly giving recruits new privileges, while keeping an eye on them. Will help a lot.

    A lot of companies don't do this, because money needs to be made.

    Greed before everything, until they burn themselves. Then they're going to whine.

  45. Do they have to buy them? by Phoenix+Dreamscape · · Score: 1

    Couldn't the restaurant... buy regular duck eggs and ferment them?

    A century egg can apparently be made quickly by soaking the egg in salt and sodium hydroxide for a week or two. Or you could actually bury it in alkaline soil... believe it or not, you don't actually have to be in China to accomplish this.

    I propose we round up any dirty chinamen buying drain cleaner at the grocery store on the grounds that they must be no good commie spies!

  46. the black egg wtf? by mestar · · Score: 1

    "Don't you know black duck eggs are a delicacy in China?" Winkler said Stan asked. "I can't get black duck eggs in San Francisco, let alone this little piece of crap town in the middle of nowhere." Stan's conclusion was that the Chinese restaurant was a front for a Chinese espionage operation targeting the Fortune 5 business.

    why? why did he conclude that?

  47. Unsubstantiated, possibly racist FUD by FoolishOwl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article basically lays out this argument:

    1. There's a Chinese restaurant in the midwest somewhere that, shockingly, serves Chinese food.
    2. Graduate students from China have been observed speaking Chinese on the telephone, and at least sometimes, they were speaking to the Chinese consulate -- which is suspicious, since consulates provide services to a nation's citizens living abroad.
    3. Therefore, there is a massive Chinese campaign of computer espionage, which is so effective that we can't actually detect anything happening.

    I read the article, expecting at least some cursory information about system cracking techniques that have been detected. Instead, there's just this vapid paranoia that Chinese people may be up to something. It smacks of racism.

    1. Re:Unsubstantiated, possibly racist FUD by euyis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I live in a city in North China and surprisingly, there are McDonalds and even European style restaurants here, serving foods like hamburgers or steak.
      And I occasionally see westerners, though not very often (stealthy spies!), talking in English on the phone.
      Do these indicate that there're evil spies operating in China, doing espionage in my city?

      TFA is nonsense.

    2. Re:Unsubstantiated, possibly racist FUD by Inda · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The racist FUD from kdawson has been growing for some time.

      Why? Why does he, and seemingly the whole of the USA population, feel the need to always have an enemy?

      Is is a culture thing? An edjucation thing?

      I can't get my head around it.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    3. Re:Unsubstantiated, possibly racist FUD by thijsh · · Score: 1

      Do these indicate that there're evil spies operating in China, doing espionage in my city?

      Maybe... depends... do they serve McNuggets?

  48. Political IT spies by XB-70 · · Score: 1

    China sends spies to work in IT departments of all major political parties. It is a great way to steal complete lists of contributors/donors/supporters and, thereby, have complete knowledge of who the major movers and shakers are. Keep your eyes and ears peeled and be very, very careful.

    --
    *** Don't be dull.***
  49. Oh God! The Russians Are Coming Again! by b4upoo · · Score: 1

    Governments seem to need something to do. So why not let them sneak about trying to steal each others secrets? On the other hand we couldn't even get New Orleans rebuilt and now it stands to be an oil rich city if the wind shifts a bit.

    1. Re: Oh God! The Russians Are Coming Again! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Boo.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  50. Re:the lede by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

    Hate to blow you out of the water but the US government does leak private details of foreign companies collected by it's national security agencies. A good example was the US government being caught red handed leaking secret wheat price bids from Canadian companies to local US suppliers collected by the NSA. So if the US is happy to stab a trading partner like Canada in the back what do you think they are doing to none aligned entities like China!

    Canada? Wait, I thought it was European companies and the UK helped.

    Or are you talking about a different government-agency-aided case of industrial espionage?

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  51. Security Expert my Ass.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/ira_winkler/

    Why do we toss around the title expert so lightly?

  52. mod parent +1 treasonous by commodoresloat · · Score: 1

    So you're admitting on a public website that your friend is engaged in a data smuggling operation, carrying evidence of Chinese sabotage across state lines? I suspect you'll be getting a knock on your door soon.

  53. Fact Error. by Web+Goddess · · Score: 1

    When I clicked on your link, the menu at the restaurant did not feature black duck anything.

    1. Re:Fact Error. by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When I clicked on your link, the menu at the restaurant did not feature black duck anything.

      Try looking for thousand-year-old eggs.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    2. Re:Fact Error. by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      They've already been removed from the menu?

      That's practically an admission of guilt right there!

  54. Oh shit! by commodoresloat · · Score: 1

    My wife has no problems buying black eggs of any kind in asia stores in Germany.

    Oh my God; the Germans are in on the plot too? It wouldn't be the first time.

  55. "they" vs "us" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quote :

    Of course, the U.S. and other countries spy on each other all the time, but the U.S. would never spy on Toyota and share that intelligence with General Motors, for example. China, on the other hand, has no such qualms.

    Oh, reaaaallly ???

    After the fall of the iron curtain, all the spy agencies, whatever countries the belong to, have been repurposed !
    You don't send the black ops guys back home, you invent new wars and today the global war is economic !
    Every country has been caught playing this game.
    The Toyota vs GM example is bad : think about military equipment contracts like providing radars the south american countries, fighting european offers (just an example that come out of my head).
    Just like the nuclear race, everybody plays the spying game because everybody does it : if you don't play, you are sure to lose.

    Yes the threat is great, and it is everywhere. This article remembers me of the partial and sweet articles that Russians can read in their own journals, "Beware we are spied, the bad guys menace us !" The truth is more complex than that but you want to keep your own citizen committed to your cause.

  56. Pot calling kettle black.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did someone already forget ECHELON? China is only just as bad as USA.

  57. Ira Winkler? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This guy.... http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/ira_winkler/

  58. No, there's a lot of this and it's real by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I look at all this smug poo-pooing of the possibility of Chinese espionage and have to shake my head. Please don't be so smug. I'm a longterm contractor in Silicon Valley and I know about a number of genuine espionage situations. There was a Chinese-backed semiconductor company here a decade ago, you'd know the name. They made chips in volume for PCs and laptops. As a contractor I discovered they had in the heart of their popular products a DSP engine designed by TI which they'd pirated. They'd had help taking it from TI and it was clear there was at least one plant within TI by the Chinese. Their government shared useful information and ran a lot of recruited engineers inside companies here. I remember various newspaper stories over the years about engineers caught redhanded taking designs out of the country.

    The same company had financial help building and running a motel nearby in Fremont where some of their customers stayed, but it also many other business people meeting with various companies. The motel was bugged, I was told by a close Chinese-American friend in the semi company. The semi firm got the customer private conversations and I think phone conversations.

    In another case, an Israeli telecom chip company was designing software that is used in many datacom systems through which a LOT of US packets flow. I heard that there were backdoors in the hardware/software systems they sold to major communications operators. Some of us non-Israelis knew that Mossad ran some of the people in the company, but what could we do about it? The company got financial backing from Israeli intelligence but it would have been hard to prove since it was run through the Cayman Islands.

    A lot of designs and technology have been pirated by Chinese, Taiwanese, and other governments. It's somewhat common knowledge here. And there are some very worrisome backdoors, for example the known sly replications of chips used in routers but with additional logic for remote access. The US military is well aware of this and there have been published stories about it. Just because the black egg story has credibility issues doesn't mean others aren't more solid.

    1. Re:No, there's a lot of this and it's real by RMH101 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Israeli Narus products have long been suspected of being state-sponsored. Given the number of deep packet inspection devices that come out Israeli companies, designed to monitor backbones, this isn't surprising.

  59. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  60. FYI, if you want to eat black duck eggs by hellop2 · · Score: 1

    They must be eaten with rice porridge (congee). Otherwise the flavor is too strong. But, as a crumbled garnish on a savory rice porridge... yum!

    Here's a recipe(hack;) that uses the eggs:
    Cantonese Lean Pork Congee

    --
    How many more years will slashdot have an off-by-one error on your Score in your profile?
  61. Black Dug Eggs by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    This should become a meme for "utterly pathetic, contentless, fear-mongering slashdot story" but then it would become over-used much too quickly.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  62. Article poorly written and researched by Anti+Cheat · · Score: 1

    You must be kidding me. Robert Mullins article is not worthy of publication, just because it is has a catchy byline regarding smelly duck eggs. The content is vague and overstated in many places. The content nothing more than bits of fluff without any kind of supporting detail. It has nothing it in that is new or inspiring and is so dry and boring, I simply began to fall asleep halfway through it. Robert Mullins should be slapped with a wet noodle for writing such drivel.

    The only saving grace to the whole thing, was in the comments submitted by readers. Inside this is a gem of links supplied by one such anonymous reader. If you want the tip of the iceberg on hundreds of Chinese Government espionage cases, then follow these links.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/02/AR2008040203952.html
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/25/60minutes/main6242498.shtml
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/3319656
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/KG31Ad01.html
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/world/europe/01spy.html?src=sch&pagewanted=all
    http://www.intelligencesearch.com/ia068.html

    However to dig deeper. The Chinese are not the only ones targeting Government and other high tech companies in the US. There are many others, but China is going much further than just the US. It would seem that the Chinese officials, are casting a huge net to capture just about anything they can get and only later throwing away what they don't need. No wonder China is advancing so fast in all the major technologies, including space, military and civilian.

    "From Rice Paddies to Rocket Ships". In only a few short years has China advanced or simply stolen it's future? Followed by actual case studies and methods, would have made an article worth reading and a far better byline. I can't believe I wasted 10 minutes of my time reading that piece of crap. Thank the gods for an enlightened and intelligent reader that offered a few links and with just that small effort did far more than Robert Mullins did in a whole page.

  63. Thought experiment: what to do with all this intel by davide+marney · · Score: 1

    Let's assume, as a thought experiment, that the Chinese government has been very successful at penetrating whatever American enterprise they've targeted. What will China do with this intel?

    According to the Economist, the "<a href="http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=16059990">china model</a>" is to embrace capitalism as a way of funding state control of key sectors of China's economy. As <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/13/AR2010051303551.html">James McGregor's op-ed</a> in the Washington Post points out, "[China has decided] that key sectors of the economy will remain "state dominated," including automotive, chemical, construction, electronic information, equipment manufacturing, iron and steel, non-ferrous metals, and science and technology. Others will stay "largely in state hands," including aviation, coal, defense, electric power and grid, oil and petrochemicals, shipping and telecommunications. State-owned companies in these industries are thriving in their protected home market. They have buckets of cash and easy access to state bank loans to carry out government directives to pursue overseas acquisitions and "go global."

    So, one possibility is for China to replace all foreign-sourced technology with Chinese versions. They could massively de-couple themselves from the world market, and never be dependent on trade with anyone other than themselves.

    Doing business in China may be a fool's errand.

    --
    "We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
  64. But if you have Cayuga ducks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    black duck eggs are more common than you think. And Cayuga ducks are a product of North America. And a major duck egg supplier is close enough to San Francisco that their eggs and ducklings are regularly shipped through San Francisco and Oakland airports.

    (I'm not a security consultant, I just raise ducks).

  65. I don't get it... by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 1

    At least when it comes to doing top secret stuff, I would think...

    * Isolate your networks from the outside world.
    * All backups are double encrypted. No single person has the password to decrypt.
    * Enforce strict no carry in / no carry out policy. All your personal belongings go into a locker. Notebooks are numbered and are checked in and out. Pens / Pencils / etc. are supplied.
    * Have a phone system that only works internally. Want to call home and see how the wife is doing? Go check out your cell phone and go outside, when your done it's put back into a locker.
    * You don't have a PC at your desk, you've got a thin client.

    It factors down into people, polices and procedures.

    --
    Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
  66. Re:Thought experiment: what to do with all this in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "They could massively de-couple themselves from the world market, and never be dependent on trade with anyone other than themselves."

    Grin, and what exactly would generate revenue for China? Trade depends on getting someone else's money, not selling to yourself in a closed loop system. If you want an example of what happens when a financial system mainly sells to itself, go check out what happened in the sub prime market, or look up "hollow swaps".

    I'm rather amused by all the efforts to paint China black. It's the sort of anyone-but-the-US stuff I've seen for ages, and it's interesting to watch. I see fear more than anything else. China engages in massive piracy: yup, but as far as I know, the US did that too to start its original economy. China copies: sure - it's not like they were left with massive options after the embargoes didn't allow them to acquire technology the normal route. China spies: ah, cute. They are alone in that, surely? To have the CIA, NSA and the global ECHELON system is, of course, for entirely benign purposes?

    About the only thing you could properly hang on China is a disregard for Human Rights and censorship. With the former I'm not sure it's possible to from nothing to full human rights, this stuff takes time (and Guantanamo Bay should not be forgotten either, btw), and the censorship raises an interesting question: how come *US* companies are able to develop those products to support that? Why? I'll leave aside the matter of large media conglomerates effectively controlling what we know, that's for conspiracy theorist.

    I'm not for or against China - I just dislike BS.

    That the author takes the presence of black eggs as evidence of infiltration is funny - it shows more a lack of culinary awareness :-). He does have a valid point with infiltration, but he's extrapolating a bit much. I also agree with his appreciation of the Google incident, that was a laughably transparent attempt to divert attention (and also evidence of some serious ego problems - who do Google think they are telling a sovereign country what to do?).

    Oh well, I guess it keeps the guy in business..

  67. Wow, ethnic restaurant = espionage by said country by misosoup7 · · Score: 1

    I don't see how a Chinese restaurant means corporate espionage. People open Chinese restaurant near big companies because corporate folks love Chinese food for lunch, it's good money. The guy makes it sound like any ethnic restaurant in the middle of no where implies they're doing something suspicious, that's the most bigoted piece of BS I've heard. Even if China wanted to conduct espionage, they have better ways to do it than opening a restaurant next to a Fortune 500 company. Oh one more thing, black duck eggs are not exactly a delicacy. Delicacy implies luxury and is something rare. "Black duck eggs" were more of a I need food for the winter, so I will preserve this egg. Now a days, they're just sold everywhere. Anyways, bear paw is a delicacy, black duck eggs pretty common.

  68. Some speculation why by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

    One of the things that's remarkable about US history is that the US ruling class has been incredibly consistent and unified on foreign policy. One of the motivations for the American Revolution was that merchants wanted access to Asian markets without having to go through Britain. Empire building, particularly in the form of dominance of global trade, and especially controlling trade with Asia, has been the central concern of the US ruling class for over two centuries.

    The current anti-Chinese paranoia has a couple of elements. Portraying Asians as if they were all unindividualized parts of some sort of menacing hive mind has been a staple of American racism for a long time (and it shows up in science fiction frequently -- take the computer game Alpha Centauri for instance). It also picks up some rehashed "Red Scare" paranoia (see Lou Dobbs and Glen Beck), and there's some stuff that looks a lot like 19th century anti-Catholic bigotry.

    In the IT field, which used to employ white men almost exclusively, there are a lot of people who have immigrated to the US from China, India, and other places. Some of us regard this as a good thing, some respond with racist anxiety.

  69. The entertainment value by tuomoks · · Score: 1

    Really have to answer to this, if for nothing else but for the entertainment value! Spying - at least in business and IT has bee around forever - well, for IT only as long as IT has been around! Living, working (in IT/IS), partying with "spies" (they had the money / budget, even bigger that IT people?), dealing maybe most IT using countries (at that time - 70's, etc), and so on - it was fun, nothing new, be careful, etc! My operators alerted "the secret service" about spies, real spies - caught in airport with a lot of documents, pictures, etc - laughing russian "spies" photographing us going to "secret" entrances in military computer installations, giving "a little too many drinks" to an western spy and listen all the stories he / she had to tell - it was fun! Yeah - it was Helsinki, Finland - long, long time ago - middle of everything what happened at that time - still is?

  70. Re:the lede by dbIII · · Score: 1

    There's been a few. One of the more obvious ones was parts of Airbus designs ending up in Boeing aircraft with a really obvious paper trail via US intelligence agencies that were either too incompetent to hide it or most likely didn't care who found out. There was legal action on that one but it didn't get very far.