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Blizzard vs. Glider Battle Resumes Next Week

trawg writes "You paid for it, you have the DVD in your drive and the box on the floor next to your desk, but do you own the game? That's the question the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals will rule on next week in the case between Blizzard, publisher of World of Warcraft, and MDY, publisher of the Glider bot. The Glider bot plays World of Warcraft for you, but Blizzard frowns on this, saying it voids the license agreement — you don't own the game, you only have a license to use it, and bots like Glider invalidate the license. The EFF has a good summary of the case as well. The case is due to be resumed on Monday."

384 comments

  1. Still waiting for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Still waiting for a Nethack bot that can ascend.

    1. Re:Still waiting for... by IorDMUX · · Score: 4, Informative

      Still waiting for a Nethack bot that can ascend.

      And this is the reason why people still play Rogue, and will be tapping away at Nethack and Dwarf Fortress long after WoW is gone.

      I am not trying to claim that these games will ever be as "successful" (read: profitable) as World of Warcraft, but I would say they far more closely approach video-games-as-art.

      --
      >> Standing on head makes smile of frown, but rest of face also upside down.
    2. Re:Still waiting for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I was younger and playing angband, then zangband I used to put weights on my keys and have the game 'level up' for me with a room of replicating monsters overnight.

      This is all the 'glide' does in WOW. IT basically can autolevel for you, OR auto collect some loot for you. It doesn't actually 'play the game'

      If you think glide is actually playing the game how I would spend my time playing your fracking nuts in the head. It would be a lot easier to make a bot to play nethack in that case... a *LOT* easier.

    3. Re:Still waiting for... by Sparr0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      TAEB is getting there. It already plays better than I do about 10% of the time.

    4. Re:Still waiting for... by Sparr0 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Better bots than glider can heal on raids more efficiently than a human (player, not character race) healer, interrupt in PVP more effectively than a human, travel while the human is AFK, etc.

    5. Re:Still waiting for... by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      ... travel while the human is AFK, etc.

      I really miss the AutoTravel mod. I used to check on the Auction House during lunch by logging in via VNC and using AutoTravel to run between the bank, mailbox, and AH. That and riding down the road while I went to get some more soda was nice.

    6. Re:Still waiting for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how I would spend my time playing your fracking nuts in the head

      Why would you wish to play my fracking nuts in your head?

    7. Re:Still waiting for... by silentcoder · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >I am not trying to claim that these games will ever be as "successful" (read: profitable) as World of Warcraft, but I would say they far more closely approach video-games-as-art.

      I'm not so sure, there's a depth of emotion in WoW that they lack... they are purely intellectual leisure... WoW gets you emotionally involved.
      Example - when I did the Pamela Redpath questline... that's when I started to genuinely HATE Arthas... quite an extreme emotion to be feeling for a fictional character. I wanted to cry over that little girl. Now THAT is art.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    8. Re:Still waiting for... by NoSleepDemon · · Score: 1

      Indeed, I remember playing through the Stalvan Mistmantle quest line around EU release and actually feeling a little sorry for pervy old Stalvan at the end. Most of my friends were delighted to be able to kill him, but I was somewhat hesitant - I felt he'd received enough torment already... That and he was 3 levels above me when I found him and I was playing a dagger Rogue (read bad success rate on skills and pathetic survivability at low level). However having said that, I've not found all that many quests in the game to be involving. Sure, they've become more interesting and varied, but nothing quite like running around Darkshire with a character low level enough to aggro even the critters hiding in the shadows. I'm really hoping that cataclysm injects something new back into all those legendary old areas that will make it worthwhile to explore them again. The only character I had stomach to level up passed 30 after my Rogue maxed out was my hunter, and that was purely to see how my counter class worked back in the day.

    9. Re:Still waiting for... by mitgib · · Score: 1

      Doing Culling of Stratholme enough before they allowed you to skip the beginning lore was all it took for me to realize Arthas is one big bag of hot air I loath.

      --
      Being a spelling & grammar Nazi is a sign you do not poses the intelligence to contribute to the conversation
    10. Re:Still waiting for... by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Well then... here's the weird bit... walk up the stairs in the inn next time, Strath is set BEFORE Darrowshire, you'll find the still alive little Pamela on the second story, with her little doll...

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    11. Re:Still waiting for... by Zerth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Clearly you've never had a mother dwarf, maddened by grief over the death of her child, kill the elephant that did the deed and then, leaving a trail of crippled dwarfs along the way, proceed to pull the lever that floods your fortress with lava and killing everyone.

      After I was done cursing, it was kind of poignant.

    12. Re:Still waiting for... by DJRumpy · · Score: 2, Funny

      One might argue thought that if your license is not transferrable, then the 'bot' must also purchase a license to play?

    13. Re:Still waiting for... by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      I think the issue is that in vanilla wow many of the quests had a storyline and seemed to foreshadow a plot. The higher you get, the less plot there is and the ore it turns into "collect 100 beetle wings".

    14. Re:Still waiting for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never knew that - thanks!

    15. Re:Still waiting for... by Gravatron · · Score: 1

      Actually, I don't think there ever topped being a ton of plot based quests. They varied area to area, but there was always a theme going on.

    16. Re:Still waiting for... by NoSleepDemon · · Score: 1

      Yeah but most of them weren't particularly involving, you didn't build any emotional attachment with the characters. It was usually something along the lines of:

      "Hi [player] we are the [random persecuted race] and the [evil maniacal race] are trying to kill us because [we/they] [are in the way of their expansion / look displeasing to them / are weak as fuck / taste great skewered on a stick]! Please go and kill [20] of their most pathetic scouts to prove your loyalty to the cause..."

      And so it would begin, culminating in killing some mob 2 or 3 levels above you and earning their "eternal gratitude" which translates into a slotted POS green that no one in their right mind would waste gems on.

    17. Re:Still waiting for... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And this is the reason why people still play Rogue, and will be tapping away at Nethack and Dwarf Fortress long after WoW is gone.

      I am not trying to claim that these games will ever be as "successful" (read: profitable) as World of Warcraft, but I would say they far more closely approach video-games-as-art.

      If you define "art" as "tedium", then I agree.

      But seriously, you are using a pretty limited definition of the word "art" there. They may be "art" in the same way that, say, chess is. But many video games are already "art" in the way that a good movie is... they put you in a character's shoes, they elicit emotions from the player other than frustration, they tell a story and they sometimes even teach you something new.

      It's silly to say that Nethack is "art" but (for example) System Shock 2 isn't. Or Starsiege: Tribes isn't. They're all "art" and they're all equally valid, just in different ways.

      (And Nethack doesn't appeal to me at all, not in the slightest. While I played WOW for several years. So, be careful not to assume that everybody is exactly like yourself.)

    18. Re:Still waiting for... by TheCRAIGGERS · · Score: 1

      An interesting thought, but Blizzard wouldn't license the game to a bot. Or more accurately, they would allow the bot to buy the game, and then they would exercise their right to void the license. This is obviously because bots are expressly forbidden in the license.

    19. Re:Still waiting for... by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Bots are computer programs, not persons. Licenses apply to persons, not their property. When you purchase a license the license is applied to you, the devices you use to exercise it aren't part of it (though the license can limit what you can do under it and that can include using certain devices).

      Of course what's at stake is probably the subscription service (a separate contract), not the license. The same rules still apply though, the contract is between persons, not a person and a device.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    20. Re:Still waiting for... by Tolkien · · Score: 1

      I can't speak for Dwarf Fortress or other commercial games, but how can Nethack possibly be profitable when there is no commercial spirit behind it? It's maintained by folks who indeed, treat the game as what it should be, art.

    21. Re:Still waiting for... by ais523 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      TAEB developer here. Unfortunately, none of us have been working on TAEB in the last year or so; Real Life keeps getting in the way.

      The real problems with building a NetHack bot are dealing with all the special cases; even parsing the screen is nontrivial. You can come up with a few simple rules that handle a lot of situations in the game, but there are always going to be hundreds of exceptions that need handling of their own. In my TAEB AI, TAEB::AI::Planar, I try to handle this to some extent by noticing that actions are failing and not repeating them, but there's only so much you can do before you have to specialcase everything by hand.

      You can read more about TAEB development, and some other things related to NetHack automation on the TAEB blog: http://taeb-blog.sartak.org/. Unfortunately, it could probably do with a few more posts. Hopefully I'll get back to TAEBing some time later, or maybe someone else will take up the slack.

      --
      (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
    22. Re:Still waiting for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > If you define "art" as "tedium", then I agree.

      Exactly how did you play Nethack that it became tedious? Pudding farming? Mass polypiling?? There's a good reason why people take on challenges. Even trying things like attempting to win in the fewest possible moves. It's the least safe way to win, I grant. And if you try to rob every shop and price-ID every item and take notes of every stash you've kept, you might indeed go crazy. But there's nothing like saving your character with a well-timed use of a wand of digging. Or evading the baddies by attacking with a potion of paralysis. Or maybe the fight is going south until you use that scroll of taming (or even a scroll of fire)? What did Nethack do that you dislike it so much, anyhow?

      And nobody said that, for example, System Shock 2 wasn't art. They said that nobody will be playing it eventually, which is true. You know that Blizzard will someday shut it down, as happens to all online games eventually. Don't argue against an idea nobody presented.

    23. Re:Still waiting for... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Exactly how did you play Nethack that it became tedious?

      Ran the program and realized you have to memorize 20,000 keystrokes with absolutely no on-screen help or tutorial before you can do anything at all? In what way is that not "tedious?"

      I actually have an extremely similar game on my old Mac, Mission: Thunderbolt (and its sequel, Mission: Firestorm), that was the same genre and basic setup, but had a *gasp* GUI and was *gasp* actually easy-to-use. I enjoyed that game. (Also: the old Gold Box D&D Dungeon Hack was a somewhat similar game, which I enjoyed.)

      So you see, I don't have anything against the genre or setup of Nethack, but the execution is crap. In My Humble Opinion, of course. Now you can go ahead and insult me for not being "hardcore" enough, or whatever bullshit Nethack players come back with when people tell them the UI sucks.

      And nobody said that, for example, System Shock 2 wasn't art. They said that nobody will be playing it eventually, which is true.

      I doubt it. That's like saying that in 20 years, nobody will be watching Casablanca or The Grapes of Wrath. It won't have the mass appeal it once did, but it'll still be played and appreciated by a select few.

    24. Re:Still waiting for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Not the AC from before, but saw this discussion in the archives while looking for a different nethack article)

      Your statement about 'memorize 20,0000 keystrokes' is kind of bs. The basic movement keys any 4 year old that has ever used vi will know, and the others are pretty obvious. 'i' brings up your inventory for instance. Kind of like how most rpgs use 'i' for inventory. There are a few odd ones, like '*' bringing up your spell list, but most of them are pretty damn intuitive. And there *is* a built-in help system, I'm not sure what failure of a school shat you out to not be able to figure it out, but everyone else in the world that has played nethack can use it.

    25. Re:Still waiting for... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      The basic movement keys any 4 year old that has ever used vi will know,

      So... zero people. Good to know.

      And there *is* a built-in help system, I'm not sure what failure of a school shat you out to not be able to figure it out, but everyone else in the world that has played nethack can use it.

      Screw you, too.

      The point is that the game would be a lot more *fun* if it was easier to play. Since there's no reason it has to be hard (for example: Mission: Thunderbolt has the same features, but an above-average usable UI), I can only assume it's difficult because the developers don't give a shit.

  2. I like living in the future. by watanabe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm really enjoying living in the Future, I have to say. When I was young, I never imagined a trial over the right to have a computer play a game for you... Just wouldn't have made sense to my eight year old videogame-loving brain.

    1. Re:I like living in the future. by Fred+IV · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A lot about World of Warcraft still doesn't make sense to my videogame-loving brain, but I'm not sure that the people who stick with WoW for years really love videogames to begin with.

    2. Re:I like living in the future. by VoidCrow · · Score: 1

      I lol'd. And clapped excitedly.

    3. Re:I like living in the future. by delinear · · Score: 0

      The fact that they want to run a piece of software that plays the game for them gave that away?

    4. Re:I like living in the future. by Timex · · Score: 1

      I lol'd. And clapped excitedly.

      So did I. That's rich!

      --
      When politicians are involved, everyone loses.
    5. Re:I like living in the future. by amplt1337 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, you probably also wouldn't have imagined you'd spend solid months of your life clicking buttons as though it were a job from the oppressed workers in Metropolis, either...

      --
      Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
    6. Re:I like living in the future. by broken_chaos · · Score: 1

      Parent may have a point -- probably not a troll. It's important to note that a large number of players (not the 'hardcore' ones you often hear about, mind you) play more for the social aspect than sheerly the gameplay. Even a number of the 'hardcore' ones don't play for the gameplay so much as the sense of accomplishment (which is often where the slippery slope towards 'addiction' comes in).

    7. Re:I like living in the future. by Gravatron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      it's just doing the boring grunt work for you so you an enjoy the rest. It's like having an auto transmission on a car, or a grain combine doing all that cutting thrashing stuff so you can just sell the grain and be done with it.

    8. Re:I like living in the future. by Golddess · · Score: 1

      It's like having an auto transmission on a car

      While I don't generally consider myself a manual snob (I have one, but the decision to get it was based on cost, not some belief in superiority over automatics), I'd love to hear what "the rest" is that you'll be able to enjoy better by going with an automatic. Once you've gotten up to speed, driving (at least the every day variety) is pretty boring overall.

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    9. Re:I like living in the future. by Daswolfen · · Score: 1

      I have to disagree. Or at least I am an outlier. I have been playing video games since pong (my school had a pinball machine (cost a dime!) and a pong cocktail table game in the HS student lounge and I would play every day after school (this is late 70s). During the 80s I lived in the local arcade, owned most every home console system (and still do plus all the ones in between). I have been playing video games for over 3 decades now. And I have been playing WoW pretty much since launch. I have been a hardcore raider and I have been a purely casual player ( and I currently sit somewhere in between). WoW makes plenty of sense to me, but then again, I also have an extensive pen and paper RPG background as well.

      --
      Don't rush me, Sonny. You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles.
    10. Re:I like living in the future. by Bungie · · Score: 1

      If doing the grunt work is the problem, maybe Blizzard should just let people type in the level they want instead of having them work for it? Probably because having to work for your level is a major part of the gameplay.

      I remember playing Diablo online when it was easy to use hacks and cheats. The game sorta loses it's edge when everyone is at the highest possible level and can kill Diablo in a single hit. Sure it removed all of the grunt work of hsving to fight through each level and upgrade your character. But what else were you going to do in the first place? The game was reduced to either chilling in town or ending the game by killing Diablo...

      --
      The clash of honour calls, to stand when others fall.
    11. Re:I like living in the future. by Pteraspidomorphi · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's the game mechanics themselves that are flawed for this whole genre.

    12. Re:I like living in the future. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even among "hardcore" gamers (defined by time spent), there are still 2 subsets. Those who simply play every game that comes out, and those who seek to master a certain subset of the better games that come out. WoW has great appeal to those in the latter set.

    13. Re:I like living in the future. by feidaykin · · Score: 1
      A lot about World of Warcraft still doesn't make sense to my videogame-loving brain, but I'm not sure that the people who stick with WoW for years really love videogames to begin with.

      Well, I love video games a great deal, but I've stuck with WoW for years. There's a couple reasons. One, I consume the "average" game pretty rapidly, 20 hours of gaming seems to fly by and it's hard to justify $50 for such fleeting entertainment. WoW's $15 a month provides me with hours of gameplay that would otherwise be spent on multiple games in that same month.

      The other reason, I admit, has nothing to do with gaming, but friends; both in-game and in real the real world. While some come and go, there's about four or five of us that have stuck with WoW since release day. That's probably the bigger reason I've stuck with it. So even though I do love video games to begin with, I will admit my primary reason for sticking with WoW has nothing to do with video games. It's quite possible that when StarCraft 2 or Diablo III comes out, we'll all migrate and be playing that for years instead.

      But speaking of WoW, I think I'll go check my auctions. I'm totally not addicted though, sometimes I don't even play for days! Gasp! Anyway, if there are noob slashdotters out there that would enjoy having a level 80 burn through a few quests for them, send a tell to Raymer on Whisperwind, Alliance side.

      --

      "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

  3. Wider implications? by XnR'rn · · Score: 1

    Does this case have much wider implications (as summary hints at) for the software licensing at large?
    I haven't read the article yet, but it seems so.

    1. Re:Wider implications? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Yes.

      Now go RTFA.

    2. Re:Wider implications? by snowgirl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Does this case have much wider implications (as summary hints at) for the software licensing at large?
      I haven't read the article yet, but it seems so.

      It depends on the arguments being made. If the only argument is that because World of Warcraft is heavily dependent upon server-side interactions, that there is a leasing of the software to interact with that code.

      To have the WoW binaries alone is fairly useless. Most games are not the same way.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    3. Re:Wider implications? by jgagnon · · Score: 1

      To have the WoW binaries alone is fairly useless. Most games are not the same way.

      Most gamers aren't fairly useless alone? ;)

      --
      Remember to maintain your supply of /facepalm oil to prevent chafing.
    4. Re:Wider implications? by iamhassi · · Score: 1

      "Does this case have much wider implications (as summary hints at) for the software licensing at large?"

      If you pay monthly for it, yes.

      That's one thing the article seems to leave out: there is no single player element of WoW, it's all multiplayer, and you must pay a monthly fee to continue playing. That monthly fee means users are obviously licensing the right to use the software.

      The fact that a user "paid for it, you have the DVD in your drive and the box on the floor next to your desk" really doesn't matter at all if users don't pay that monthly fee, they can shut them out at any time for any TOS violation.

      The article then goes on to say "If you own your software, you have the right to resell it and the right to make copies and adaptations as necessary to use it." Huh? This is a online game, what are you reselling, the WoW servers? Are users going to copy all the online content and make a single player version of WoW to play by themselves?

      The article's really written like the author has never heard of WoW

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    5. Re:Wider implications? by GasparGMSwordsman · · Score: 4, Informative

      If the only argument is that because World of Warcraft is heavily dependent upon server-side interactions, that there is a leasing of the software to interact with that code.

      Except this is not the argument. The issue is that Blizzard claims that no one EVER owns a program "purchased" from them. They argue that any user of any licensed software product is forever bound by the terms of the license in every way.

      Many people (myself included) believe that the purchase of a game or other software product is an actual sale (with all applicable first-sale doctrine rights). That is the issue at hand, do you purchase the program or are you renting the program (any program, even something with no network or server attributes)? This is by the way, even in the FIRST LINE of the summary on EFF's site.

      From the EFF's summary:

      When you buy World of Warcraft (WoW) in a retail box, do you own the copy of the software you bought? That's the critical legal question facing the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in a pending appeal in MDY v. Blizzard, and the question that Public Knowledge took on in an excellent amicus brief filed with the court earlier this week.

      If you own your software, you have the right to resell it and the right to make copies and adaptations as necessary to use it. If you don't, well, then you face a possible copyright lawsuit for transgressing any limitations the vendor puts in the license agreement.

    6. Re:Wider implications? by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Why do you have to be so black and white? People can either own or rent property, and no one insists on making everyone either own or rent.

      There is no reason why the court should ever make a decision that there is one and only one type of possession of a computer program, and there is no good reason why anyone should ever make this assertion to the courts.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    7. Re:Wider implications? by joshio · · Score: 1

      This claim by Blizzard (and many others) is completely dumb. I really hope they lose on this, because if I buy a product off the shelf, I feel it should be a sale regardless of what their TOS says. That is the precedent that the courts really need to set here. I think in a perfect world, the only way Blizzard should be able to pull this stunt is to actually "lease" you the client as part of the monthly subscription. No extra purchase for the game + expansion packs. You straight up pay your monthly access fee for the "service". If that were actually their model, this case would be a slam-dunk for Blizzard in my mind. Since they are selling a boxed version of the client, they deserve to lose this one. Same thing should be set for every other vendor out there: if you want to have absurd TOS terms, then you have to figure out how to sell your product as a monthly recurring service. Then you can fit right in with the other consumer abusive companies such as telcos, cell phone providers, and cable providers.

      But, they will probably end up winning and that will be even more motivation for additional companies to become even more hostile against consumers. Oh, happy day.

    8. Re:Wider implications? by dpastern · · Score: 1

      Let's look at it this way. If this case goes against Blizzard, every large software vendor is going to be hurt by it. It'll never happen. There'll be sufficient pressure both from the government, and large business, to ensure that Blizzard wins.

      Look, I agree with you, we buy the software, we friggen own it. This licence BS is just crap. EULAs should be made illegal on sight. Alas, the ordinary person doesn't "own" this world, and we have no say in how it's run. It's the rich and the powerful. Don't like this? Tough. Until 99% of the ordinary population realises that they're getting fucked over, and that there's one rule for them, and one rule for the rich and the powerful, and that governments and the judicial areas are all corrupt, nothing will ever happen. Even then, I see a growing number of ordinary people realise this, but sadly, they're so apathetic that they simply don't care. It doesn't bode well for our society, as I think that we'll end up with a Matrix style society, with only a few "freedom" fighters...

      Dave

      --
      Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. --Martin Luther King Jr.
  4. I am not going to hold my breath... by Tepshen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    .. waiting for them to overturn this ruling. the bottom line is that blizzard has all the resources they need to fluff this case up as some kind of crime against humanity and the loss of freedom for every man woman and child in america when the bottom line is they are fighting to poison themselves for the long haul. I must say that as a consumer I HATE when any company wants me to pay for something I wont own. my first thought is always "if you dont want me to own your products, I wont buy them." They will learn this lesson eventually along with the "if we dont make things work easily, the pirates will" lesson after billions wasted and a soured market turns around and bites them in the ass.

    1. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by snowgirl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the difference here between what is before and after is that one doesn't play World of Warcraft on their machine alone. There is a heavy amount of server-side interaction.

      I think it is entirely reasonable that World of Warcraft have restrictions on what can be done while you are leasing the allowance to use their servers to play their game.

      Now, as for Diablo 3, and playing on your own machine (or even connecting to a server for no other reason than copyright protection) there's simply no argument for being a licensee as opposed to an owner.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    2. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Mike+Mentalist · · Score: 0, Informative

      With World of Warcraft you are playing on Blizzard's servers and with thousands of other people. This sort of 'bot screws things up and Blizzard have a right to stop people using it whilst using their servers.

      --
      I put my books on Amazon, Smashwords, Demonoid, ISOHunt and Pirate Bay. Search for 'Michael Cargill'
    3. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by mr_gorkajuice · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do you even realize that WoW is an MMO?
      It's so utterly transparent that by "buying" WoW, you're paying a setup fee for you ongoing subscription.
      Hate them all you want. Your ideology just doesn't go with MMO's. I guess they're not your thing then, and I'm wondering why you can be bothered to post here.
      And btw, there's no (software) pirates (but plenty of the actual one-eyed, peg-legged, parrot-accompanied villains) in WoW. Unless you're counting private servers. Which I guess Blizzard don't really care THAT much about, since their activities aren't actually hurting the real world... of warcraft.

    4. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To take a little spin, perhaps you own your copy WoW, pay for a license to log onto Blizzards servers?

    5. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by addie · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between "owning the game" and "owning the service". There are terms of service for WoW and other online games; this comes with the territory when you're playing a game that involves interacting with other players. You can't simply do anything you want, as you actions have effects on others. I don't want players to be botting their way to the level cap or harvesting resources, it has a negative effect on my experience in the game by removing a social aspect, inflating the economy, and cheapening my experience.

      Here's an imperfect analogy: you buy a soccer ball. You have the right to deflate it, paint it orange, and put spikes and nails on it if you want. But that doesn't give you the right to bring that hard spikey orange ball to my amateur league soccer games.

    6. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      To take a little spin, perhaps you own your copy WoW, pay for a license to log onto Blizzards servers?

      I'll take the high road and say, this requires speculation about how the law should be. I'm not anywhere in the position to do that. I just know a bit how the law works.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    7. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Rogerborg · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think it is entirely reasonable that World of Warcraft have restrictions on what can be done while you are leasing the allowance to use their servers to play their game.

      It might have been reasonable if they'd argued that, but they didn't. Their case is entirely about your local copy of the client. They have argued (successfully) that if you do not follow their license terms then the act of copying it to RAM is a copyright violation.

      Perhaps we could stick to discussing what they have argued, not what they haven't?

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    8. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Xest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "I think it is entirely reasonable that World of Warcraft have restrictions on what can be done while you are leasing the allowance to use their servers to play their game."

      Let's just be clear here, what are you saying, that when you lease allowance to use their servers, they have permission to do whatever they want to your local machine and define what software you can and can't run on it? because that's the issue here.

      Blizzard use pretty much exactly the same techniques to check processes on your local machine as Glider uses to interfact with the WoW process. Blizzard are saying that this technique should be illegal- in the case of Glider, making the whole piece of software illegal even if you wanted to use it on say, 3rd party custom WoW servers. They're saying it's okay for them to use the technique though to scan your other software.

      It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact the technical argument they're using can have massive implications for the software industry, for example, the same technique is used by anti-malware software. Potentially then if Blizzard's argument is held up in court, if someone is stupid enough to click through a EULA on a piece of malware, then the malware vendor could sue for the removal from sale of any anti-malware software by precisely the same argument Blizzard is using. Worse, the technical argument used by blizzard questionably even makes operating systems themselves outright illegal for also using such tecniques.

      It's a bad case in general, Blizzard are attempting to create a dangerous precedent for the software industry that has far reaching negative implications whilst also restricting people's rights to do whatever they want on their computer, and to use whatever software they want, even if that software is in itself not illegal.

      The issue is that Blizzard is going far too far just to protect their game, they're risking too much collateral damage for too many people just for the sake of stopping a handful of people cheating in their game rather than simply making their game less prone to cheating by making it worth playing rather than just macroing. Their actions are utterly reckless and selfish, their game just isn't important enough to create such a dangerous precedent for the millions of people who don't even play WoW. It's their problem to deal with, yet they feel the rest of us should have to suffer rather than them properly deal with it because the worst thing is, people will still distribute such hacks regardless of the legality of them, just as they always have.

      They're using a legal answer, to a technical/gameplay problem.

    9. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by snowgirl · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think it is entirely reasonable that World of Warcraft have restrictions on what can be done while you are leasing the allowance to use their servers to play their game.

      It might have been reasonable if they'd argued that, but they didn't. Their case is entirely about your local copy of the client. They have argued (successfully) that if you do not follow their license terms then the act of copying it to RAM is a copyright violation.

      Perhaps we could stick to discussing what they have argued, not what they haven't?

      You are correct that they argued about a local copy of the client, however you fail to acknowledge that Count I is "Tortious Interference With Contract"

      It is not the ONLY thing that they argued. As for their copyright argument, they asserted that Glider produces an unauthorized copy of the program into memory in order to disable and/or defeat Warden. Such a copy they argue is not authorized.

      It's difficult for MDY to argue that making their altered copy of the program is necessary for play... especially when such play is directly a violation of the contract to play said game.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    10. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Copyright law has a provision to allow installing software without needing a license for that, if there's still loopholes companies can use to make running a piece of software without a license a copyright violation the law is buggy and needs a patch.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    11. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Informative

      Fair enough on the tortuous interference, but that's small beer compared to the ownership and copyright issues.

      MDY shouldn't have to make any argument regarding whether the RAM copy is "authorized" or not, since Title 117 disallows copyright claims against the owner.

      Note carefully that Blizzard's argument isn't against Title 117, it's that their EULA means that the purchaser doesn't "own" the copy that they bought, and so the enjoys no Title 117 protection. That's the significant precedent here.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    12. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by snowgirl · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Fair enough on the tortuous interference, but that's small beer compared to the ownership and copyright issues.

      MDY shouldn't have to make any argument regarding whether the RAM copy is "authorized" or not, since Title 117 disallows copyright claims against the owner.

      Note carefully that Blizzard's argument isn't against Title 117, it's that their EULA means that the purchaser doesn't "own" the copy that they bought, and so the enjoys no Title 117 protection. That's the significant precedent here.

      MDY didn't make the argument at all, Blizzard made the argument that it was unauthorized... specifically for the points that you raised.

      MDY is then required to answer as to how Blizzard is wrong, otherwise they stipulate to the claim.

      This raises the question: can a person in possession of a piece of software, make a copy necessary for its use, when such use is in violation of the EULA?

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    13. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Xest · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "This is what every person playing WoW has agreed to by contract with Blizzard."

      No, they agreed to it via EULA, there's no solid decision that EULAs represent valid contracts. Even then, does it explicitly state those things I mentioned in the EULA? Even if valid, can a user really give up fundamental human right of the right to privacy via a EULA simply by clicking a button when it's non-obvious that WoW would ever perform such intrusive actions? If you feel the answer is yes, do you also agree that a user should have to live with a piece of malware indefinitely if they accidently agree to install it because they weren't paying attention if the EULA of said malware states is the case?

      The situation is far from as clear cut as you seem to think.

      "MDY started the lawsuit, Blizzard finished it."

      As a defensive measure against Blizzard's assertion that they were infringing Blizzard's copyright and intended to sue them over it anyway you mean?

    14. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Xest · · Score: 1

      The problem is that it's how the law has worked historically for just about everything else. What we're seeing in the past decade or so is an attempt to change the precedent for everything else in the case of software or digital media, as if software and digital media is something special that needs treating differently to pretty much everything else on the planet that someone might purchase to own.

      But the key point is this, until there's a ruling that says otherwise, historical precedent must apply, and so I believe the GP is correct, for now, because that's how every other service provider must work.

      If Blizzard wants it this way the solution is really quite simple for them- start renting out the software, rather than putting it in shops as a purchase to own product. The issue is they're scared consumers will reject that approach, but it's tough shit, they really just can't have it both ways- sell to own, then tell you how you can use it, because that causes fundamental problems with implications far outside of WoW. If your toaster plug goes, can you change the fuse in the plug yourself? or can you now only use a certified replacement service from the manufacturer that costs far far too much because when you opened the box you accepted the EULA that was strapped across it?

    15. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      But that's far more valid than what they argued. The copying to RAM thing is clear cut and not considered to be infringement. It says so explicitly in code, that forms of copying necessary to make use of material is not considered infringement. Meaning that if a copy is infringing it's the copy on the disk, not the copy in memory.

    16. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Thing is - their making a stupid agreement.

      The license isn't what matters -the moreso because you can download the game for free from their website. You do however pay for server access, that is - you agree to a contract.
      Why bring the license into it? They don't NEED copyright for this. BESIDES the copyright which only affects copying after all, you have to agree to a contract for their services.
      Don't like the contract, don't sign it. You agree to a service contract with any service provider from the plumber to the phone company - and any clause in there that you sign you're bound to.

      Glider violates the contract. I think making this about the license would be stupid of Blizzard, so I tend to assume the article is written wrongly. I'm massively opposed to EULA style "use copyright to enforce an unfair license" - but this isn't even IN the EULA. The ToS is a seperate contract, related to your right to access the server, not to use the software.

      I doubt very much that Blizzard wouldn't play it that way.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    17. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by leonardluen · · Score: 1

      The problem is that it's how the law has worked historically for just about everything else. What we're seeing in the past decade or so is an attempt to change the precedent for everything else in the case of software or digital media, as if software and digital media is something special that needs treating differently to pretty much everything else on the planet that someone might purchase to own.

      This isn't an attempt to change the precedent, this is an attempt to set one. The validity of these licenses have never been tested by the law. So there just plain is no precedent right now. This case is what will set the precedent depending on how the judge rules. It could still go either way at this point.

    18. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, there are tons of decisions that hold that EULAs are valid contracts. What planet have you been on?

      Oh that's right, slashdot...

      In a very *few* cases, individual clauses of EULAs have been struck down. As far as I'm aware however, there has never been a case where an entire EULA has been thrown out or held to not be a valid contract.

      And aside from that, even if EULAs in general were in valid, there is a much different situation between Blizzard and its customers. All of Blizzard's subscribers pay a fee to access the server (whether monthly, quarterly, or twice a year). It's very difficult to imagine that Blizzard cannot legally form a contract with those users regulating the terms of access to the server.

    19. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Angostura · · Score: 1

      ... what are you saying, that when you lease allowance to use their servers, they have permission to do whatever they want to your local machine and define what software you can and can't run on it? because that's the issue here.,.

      No, the original poster is saying that when you lease allowance to use their servers it is reasonable for them to control your interaction with their servers. Because that's the issue here. Or at least, it is clearly a reasonable issue for them to have a say in.

    20. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many thanks to both of you, these are the real issues here and it's great to see them being discussed in a moderate manner, unlike the OP's "crimes against humanity" crybaby bs.

    21. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Xest · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure you took my point from reading my post. My point was that historically if you've bought something rather than rented or licensed it, you had a right to do as you wanted with it, and this is what I was referring to be precedent, whilst I agree no precedent has been set specifically for software licenses, precedent has been set for "things in general" - i.e. your toaster, your food, etc. there is no restriction on what you do with them. My point was that I'm not sure there's good reason that software should really be special in this respect and the attempt to make special cases for things like software by setting new precedents for it that run counter to the precedent of pretty much everything else you might buy is the fundamental problem I see here. I'd rather no special precedent was set for software and that it was just simply left alone such that if you bought it it was yours to do with as you wish under existing law - in other words, I'd rather EULAs that state what you can and can't do with a product you've bought are ruled as non-enforcable.

    22. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Xest · · Score: 1

      The issue is that terms of access to the server and terms of use of the software are two very different things.

      If Blizzard state you can't do what you want with the software on your local machine then that's stupid, if Blizzard state you can't access the server if you have manipulated the software on your local machine that's fine.

      The issue is about how they go enforcing the latter, and if it means infringing your rights to do as you will on your local machine then that's where the problem lies with the EULA.

      Regarding enforcement of EULAs, see this case as evidence that your assertion that no EULA has ever been declared invalid, and only specific clauses have is simply wrong:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step-Saver_Data_Systems,_Inc._v._Wyse_Technology

    23. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the same thing that happens in business class software, music, movies, images, etc. Licensing is even more common in commercial settings because companies typically don't want to anger or care about the little end-user.

      A complete "ownership" of the game would entitle you to make copies of the game and re-sell it on ebay or on the school yard. You would also own the copyright. I'm willing to bet that every commercially-made piece of software, video, music, only grants you a license for personal use (unless you're a business). FOSS being the exception.

      I think what this article and this forum hinges upon, is the definition of ownership. And if it's not that, then it's back to rambling about how copyrights should only be 2 years, how it's stifling innovation, yadda-yadda.

    24. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Xest · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the same thing, because the issue is precisely that - their method of controlling that interaction, and that is in the case of Warden, and in the case of trying to have Glider deemed illegal by intruding into your system's processes and scanning to see what is running on your system.

      There is no problem with controlling your access to the servers at their end, by filtering out or manipulating data sent to/from your system to their server at their server, the issue is their manipulation of software on your PC including software that isn't even related to WoW.

      You simply can't separate the two as you've attempted to do, because Blizzard are attempting to do precisely what I said, in an attempt to do what you said- control your interaction with the servers.

    25. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by sangreal66 · · Score: 1

      This isn't an attempt to change the precedent, this is an attempt to set one. The validity of these licenses have never been tested by the law. So there just plain is no precedent right now. This case is what will set the precedent depending on how the judge rules. It could still go either way at this point.

      Not true. EULAs have been held up in other cases. Other Blizzard cases even. In fact, even if they hadn't -- this is an appeal of a ruling that already went in Blizzard's favor.

    26. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by leonardluen · · Score: 1

      sorry i guess i hadn't had my caffeine yet.

      i agree i hope they find eula's as non-enforceable. software should be similar to a book. you should be able to read it, burn it, loan it to a friend. the one thing you can't do is make copies of it. that is covered by copyright. i don't have any issues with limited term copyrights, i however despise the retroactive copyright extensions they keep doing.

    27. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by reddwar · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind that WoW is as much a service as it is a game. You subscribe to their service so that you can play on their servers with other subscribers. It's not much different than a brick and mortar restaurant with a sign saying 'no shirt, no shoes, no service.' In this case Blizzard is saying 'use hacks, use bots, no service.'

    28. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Outside of a few specific cases EULAs have been considered contracts (and as a User's starting point should be assumed as such) in most US courts where the issue has come up. Some have been rejected entirely, usually due to violating contract law.

      Rule of thumb, read anything you agree too. It may or may not be legit pending the specifics.

    29. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      If we are leasing the game, then we are entitled to certain rights that go with leasing. We don't have these rights.
      We aren't leasing the game.

      All this does is automate keystrokes and mouse clicks. It doesn't interact with there servers in anyway a user doesn't.
      This is all about using the software you bought.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    30. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Handicapped players. Is Blizzard seriously saying someone disabled with palsy isn't allowed to play their game?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    31. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Make your copy before agreeing to the EULA

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    32. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      That's impossible. They're talking about a copy made when the game is loaded in to RAM, not a copy made to your hard drive.

    33. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Ephemeriis · · Score: 0

      Let's just be clear here, what are you saying, that when you lease allowance to use their servers, they have permission to do whatever they want to your local machine and define what software you can and can't run on it? because that's the issue here.

      WoW is a MMOG. The whole point of playing WoW is to share the world with thousands of other people. This shared environment requires everyone play by the same rules. If one player has an unfair advantage in the form of some automated play bot, it will unbalance the entire game environment. Eventually ruining the experience for other players.

      I will readily agree that Blizzards actions are a little extreme... I'd object to such invasive measures for a single-player game... But it's a little different with a MMOG environment.

      I am, against my better judgment, going to drag out a car analogy.

      If you want to drive your car on a public road, you are subject to various laws. You need to register your vehicle, you need license plates, you need to get it inspected periodically, you need a driver's license, you need insurance. The specifications of your vehicle are governed by a number of different groups... And you agree to let various people crawl around inside your car to make sure it operates correctly... And if it doesn't meet their specifications, you are not allowed to drive it on public roads. If you try to, you can be arrested and/or fined.

      None of this applies if it is a private road. If you build your own, closed track to drive around on... Nobody cares. You can build any kind of monstrosity and putter around your closed track with no license, insurance, or anything else.

      Similarly, if you operate your software in a single-player environment, nobody cares. But if you're operating it in a shared environment with thousands of other users, people care.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    34. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      If only it were that simple. The problem is that Blizzard's argument has nothing to do with what they provide as a service, but exactly what you're allowed to do with the actual copy of the software you bought and exactly what entails copyright infringement.

      In a nutshell, it seems their argument is that the glider bot makes a copy of the software in RAM, which is copyright infringement because that copy is not necessary to use the software.

      Hopefully I don't need to attempt to explain why setting this kind of precedent would be a very bad thing. Or if you need an explanation, hopefully someone can do a better job of providing one than I could.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    35. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

      You're a little too high on your software-rights-high-horse.

      Blizzard needs to win this case, but they need to win it very carefully and in a specific manner.
      There's two different things that need to be preserved here: Software users' rights, and the integrity of online gaming. If it's really decided that once you buy a game you can do anything you want to it while connected to authorized servers, well that just means Glider is legit. That'll mean that WoW's server populations will explode with zombie characters. It'll also mean Steam's VAC (for what it's worth..) will disappear, and you'll be legally entitled to use aimhax and all that wonderful crap.

      That's not really a rosy future. I don't think Blizzard is arguing this really the 'right' way, but if they lose online gaming will just become a worthless exercise in who's found the best software to play the game for them

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    36. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by subanark · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Blizzard has stated that any piece of input hardware that emulates another piece of hardware is fine provided that every hardware command sent to the game is backed by a direct (not delayed) human interaction. Such mapping from human interaction to input also needs to be consistent. You may map more than one button to a single action, you may multi-box as much as you like. You may not using "auto fire" sytle buttons, as that causes an input without direct human interaction, or even one that presses a button 5 seconds after you press one on the keyboard. You may not use programmable "combo"s that press a series of keys in sequence by you hitting a single key several times.

    37. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did the person legally obtain the software? If the answer is yes then they don't need a license or a EULA to have the right to use the copy.

    38. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by illumin8 · · Score: 1

      It is not the ONLY thing that they argued. As for their copyright argument, they asserted that Glider produces an unauthorized copy of the program into memory in order to disable and/or defeat Warden. Such a copy they argue is not authorized.

      If you follow their logic to it's conclusion, every time you load Wow.exe into memory you're making an unauthorized copy. Sorry, but a software developer doesn't get to decide what is an authorized or unauthorized copy. Fair use demands that if I purchased it, I can make as many damn copies as I want for personal use.

      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    39. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      That's not true at all.

      Just because you are entitled to use a piece of software, doesn't mean that Blizzard and Valve aren't entitled to ban you from using their service for whatever reason they decide.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    40. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Sandbags · · Score: 1

      "Let's just be clear here, what are you saying, that when you lease allowance to use their servers, they have permission to do whatever they want to your local machine and define what software you can and can't run on it?"
      Yup.

      It's called access control. No they can't take over use of your machine "without permission" but they can mandate patch level, security settings, limitation of other apps that integrate with their systems or cause load on their servers.

      A person is reasonably expected to be capable of a max number of online hours (as an average). The monthe fee is based on that basis. The bot apps allow user to be online VAST amounts more time in a day than is typically otherwise possible, causing them additional loads and typing up resources for real people.

        It also sets those without the knowledge to use those bots at a significant disadvantage to those who do, people who as part of their use fees expect to play in a relatively fair and balanced world for their money.

      I think this is open and shut. This is essentially a subscription service running on remote systems. Your app, if you want to even argue it;s yours, is only a portion of the code, not a wholly owned app (you don't launch your copy on their servers, they launch their code and allow the app you bought to connect). Without your continuing subscription (or even a free use agreement if it ever goes Free-to-play, not likely), the app you bought is simply nothing more than an activation fee...

      They have every right to maintain balance and fairness for the Masses playing, and base availability on predictable numbers. I'd perhaps be OK if, for example only, they said an average player is estimated at 20 hours per week, but a bot runner is estimated at 40, and thus charge a "premium rate" equal to double the base rate to be able to use a bot... but then also limit PvP for bot players only to other players that also used a bot for their game, since I'd really care less as an average player.

      You agreed to a contract to play online. It's a subscription. They absolutely can control the access rules.

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    41. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Sandbags · · Score: 1

      You're rights include you, a real person, playing for an estimated number of hours, and the scale of the server farm, and monthly cost to play, and expected term of sustained account status (number of months subscribed) are based on these averages. If a tool was allowed, and a mass of people started a) being logged in 3 times as long in an average month, and b) leveled up to max within a few months, experienced all the content, and quit, this imbalances their financials, as well as disadvantages many players who don;t do the same thing.

      It interacts with a server in a way a human can't, for extreme long sessions, which is a server load, and is a cost to blizzard on multiple levels.

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    42. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Potentially then if Blizzard's argument is held up in court, if someone is stupid enough to click through a EULA on a piece of malware, then the malware vendor could sue for the removal from sale of any anti-malware software by precisely the same argument Blizzard is using.

      Fortunately courts are not stupid enough to force people into unjust contracts, which is what any malware vendor would be trying to make happen. It'd be a simple matter to repudiate it...

      Besides, the key to the situation with Blizzard and MDY is that...people want to play WOW with it. If you don't...then removing WOW is fine and dandy. Glider is useless though, so...who is going to do that?

      The same does not apply to this hypothetical malware with a contract you envision.

    43. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "EULAs have been held up in other cases."

      They've also been pretty much ignored in others and held as unenforceable.

      EA certainly wasn't happy when I pulled their EULA defense out from under them.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    44. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > If you want to drive your car on a public road, you are subject to various laws. You need to register your vehicle, you need license plates, you need to get it inspected periodically, you need a driver's license, you need insurance. The specifications of your vehicle are governed by a number of different groups... And you agree to let various people crawl around inside your car to make sure it operates correctly... And if it doesn't meet their specifications, you are not allowed to drive it on public roads. If you try to, you can be arrested and/or fined.

      No you don't. I drove a car for years without doing any of that crap. Got pulled over twice, and let go, because I had _NO_ contract with the government nor its police offices. It's all about Contract Law and Jurisdiction.

      Please research the legal status of "Family Car Doctrine" before spouting such nonsense. You have the _right_ to travel.

      Any other "restrictions" placed upon you are because YOU accepted them.

      --
      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

    45. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by GasparGMSwordsman · · Score: 1

      It is reasonable that Blizzard can restrict access to their game and servers. It is NOT reasonable for them to claim that every purchaser of Wow never purchased the game. This is Blizzard's claim, that no one ever purchases a copy of WoW, they LEASE (rent) a copy of it.

      Blizzard also argues that this is true for all Blizzard products. You don't own your copy of Baldur's Gate, you are renting it forever.

      If Blizzard wants to disallow the use of Glider that is fine. If they want to ban people who do use it, that is fine. But what Blizzard has done is preposterous.

    46. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by GasparGMSwordsman · · Score: 1

      Funny the only case I can think of for a "shrink wrapped" EULA product is the AutoDesk case. In that case the judge ruled that the item in question was sold and not licensed.

      http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/05/court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.ars

      Here is a linked copy of the Judge's decision:

      http://www.citizen.org/documents/vernororder.pdf

      I see you cited plenty of these cases. Oh wait this is /. where AC's make broad comments with nothing to back them up.

    47. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by mikkelm · · Score: 1

      Potentially then if Blizzard's argument is held up in court, if someone is stupid enough to click through a EULA on a piece of malware, then the malware vendor could sue for the removal from sale of any anti-malware software by precisely the same argument Blizzard is using.

      Wait, so what you're saying is that, should this case be decided in Blizzard's favour, stupidity could possibly land you in trouble? I can't even begin to imagine the implications!

    48. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by GasparGMSwordsman · · Score: 1
      I think you are missing the point. The issue at hand is, do you own the contents of the box? It has nothing to do with "can I play WoW."

      If I purchase the WoW box software, I should OWN a copy of the client side program. If I want to connect to Blizzard's WoW servers then fine, I agree to a ToS and pay my fee. But I should still own a copy of the client side program.

      This has far reaching effects that I think you are not considering. If I don't OWN the copy, then I can be held liable for any use not approved by the copyright owner. The ToS (which is part of the EULA) is VERY broad. Under section 9Ciii it is a violation of the license if you do "Anything that Blizzard considers contrary to the "essence" of the Game." To be very clear, you are committing copyright infringement which carries massive penalties if you break the license.

      Blizzard can also alter the license at any time by posting something on their web site (which you check constatnly I am sure). You can get out of the updated license, here is how:

      Termination.
      This License Agreement is effective until terminated. You may terminate the License Agreement at any time by (i) permanently destroying all copies of the Game in your possession or control; (ii) removing the Game Client from your hard drive; and (iii) notifying Blizzard of your intention to terminate this License Agreement. Blizzard may terminate this Agreement at any time for any reason or no reason. Upon termination for any reason, all licenses granted herein shall immediately terminate and you must immediately and permanently destroy all copies of the Game in your possession and control and remove the Game Client from your hard drive.

      Oh and did you notice that if Blizzard terminates the agreement you must, "immediately and permanently destroy all copies of the Game in your possession and control and remove the Game Client from your hard drive." If you don't, you are again committing copyright infringement.

      That is what Blizzard claims, it is absurd. It should be very clearly defined that if you purchase a copy of a game, you own that copy. Just like a book. When you buy a book, you do OWN that copy of the book. That is where the whole first-sale doctrine came from.

    49. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Americano · · Score: 1

      Could you explain what this:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_purpose_doctrine

      Has to do with any of the requirements that your car receive periodic safety inspections, be registered, properly licensed, etc?

      Because I'm just not seeing how your argument speaks to the Family Purpose Doctrine (also known as the Family Car Doctrine).

    50. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by KillaGouge · · Score: 0

      Then should the Chinese and Koreans be allowed to play WoW, they spend vastly more time playing WoW per session then the average American? Hell, they are paid to play that long, paid very low wages, but paid none the less.

      --
      GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social exper
    51. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      My point was that historically if you've bought something rather than rented or licensed it, you had a right to do as you wanted with it, and this is what I was referring to be precedent,

      I'm having trouble figuring this out... if you own something, do you pay a monthly fee to use it?

      Users are merely in possession of the binaries, and license the right to use the program. This is well-supported by the monthly payment model used to access the game.

      They're not going crazy out of precedent, they're simply pointing out that possession does not equal ownership. Anyone aware of rental and leasing law should be clear on this.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    52. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Did the person legally obtain the software? If the answer is yes then they don't need a license or a EULA to have the right to use the copy.

      "Did the person legally come into possession of the apartment? If the answer is yes, then they don't need a license or a rental agreement to have the right use the property."

      The real question here is if World of Warcraft is a rental/lease, or if it is ownership. That there is a monthly subscription fee that if you fail to pay, you retain essentially nothing about your game play is a pretty convincing argument for the former.

      As a renter/licensee, the free use of the copy are contingent upon compliance with the licensing agreement, the EULA, and Terms of Use.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    53. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Did the person legally obtain the software? If the answer is yes then they don't need a license or a EULA to have the right to use the copy.

      "Did the person legally come into possession of the apartment? If the answer is yes, then they don't need a license or a rental agreement to have the right use the property."

      I know you're trying to make a point here, and I don't mean to interrupt, but you might want to research "squatters rights".

    54. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      I agree with IndustrialComplex that it isn't true, and further even if it were true, I'd prefer a ruined virtual world to a ruined real world any day. Under no circumstances should a change to Blizzards EULA result in criminal penalties. Period. They have done nothing to earn the full strength and power of the government, and this little end-run trick involving copyright is horrifying.

    55. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Did the person legally obtain the software? If the answer is yes then they don't need a license or a EULA to have the right to use the copy.

      "Did the person legally come into possession of the apartment? If the answer is yes, then they don't need a license or a rental agreement to have the right use the property."

      I know you're trying to make a point here, and I don't mean to interrupt, but you might want to research "squatters rights".

      Yeah, I'm aware of the crux in the argument being that housing is considered so special that just having possession gives a lot of rights.

      Namely, possession of property has to be taken through actual legal due process (as it should be) unlike say, a leased car, or whatever, which can be seized almost at will.

      There's actually an interesting question behind this... how much legal process should be required to remove legal "possession" of a computer program?

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    56. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by crenshawsgc · · Score: 1

      " Got pulled over twice, and let go, because I had _NO_ contract with the government nor its police offices. It's all about Contract Law and Jurisdiction."

      Bullshit.

    57. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      When ever i see a line like "you file to realize/acknowledge" followed by some technical term i hear it in the voice of the Trekkie kid on the Simpsons. He'sh trying to shay shome technical point through hish retainer.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    58. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by ildon · · Score: 1

      They're arguing it because that's what every software company has established for the past 20 years and it's what has held up in court in the past. It's not like Blizzard is some evil corporation treading new water trying to steal your freedoms out from under you. These are freedoms you "secretly" (it's in almost every EULA ever, but no one ever reads them) have never had to begin with.

      At their core, Blizzard probably doesn't even actually care about the specifics of whether you own their software. They just don't want people cheating in their game and are willing to use every legal loophole and trick in existence to prevent it.

    59. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if valid, can a user really give up fundamental human right of the right to privacy via a EULA simply by clicking a button when it's non-obvious that WoW would ever perform such intrusive actions? If you feel the answer is yes, do you also agree that a user should have to live with a piece of malware indefinitely if they accidently agree to install it because they weren't paying attention if the EULA of said malware states is the case?

      Yes. Yes.

      People give up far far more of their "fundamental rights" through contracts every day. Additionally, they often don't realize it when signing. If you are harmed by an unreasonable contract there are already laws to help deal with that. This isn't new ground. Contract law is over 500 years old.

    60. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by ildon · · Score: 1

      Read the page. The EULA was only invalid because it directly contradicted a verbal contract made for the purchase of the same software.

    61. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by ildon · · Score: 1

      It's a lot harder to track down and ban every user of a bot than it is to just sue the shit out of whoever created the bot to make them stop making new versions.

    62. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Swearing at your own ignorance doesn't make other people's truth any less false, grasshopper.

      You are ignorant of many facts,

      First, Pre-9/11 I had acquaintances in Canada, Mexico, and US that would travel without a "license." Post-9/11 cops weren't interested in your rights and would regularly over-step their jurisdiction.

      Second, go read the US Tenth Amendment sometime, you might learn something.

      Third, go "read" Black's Law Dictionary, 3rd ed. or earlier. It has many interesting definitions of person, family car doctrine, etc.

      Fourth, go talk to lawyers and ask them "Can you explain why _ALL_ law is based on contract law?". For example, can you _show_ me the law that _requires_ a person to have a SSN? There is NO law that _requires_ a person to do all the things that they _think_ they need to. The problem is that they have so many government contracts, that it is a ALL or NOTHING process.

      In this day and age, there are more important things to worry about then stupid government officials that try to micro-manage your life.

    63. Re:I am not going to hold my breath... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Sounds like the same.

      Peace Offices used to recognize it in the early 20th century. Post 9/11 they don't care if you are "right", they only want their extortion fees, and will abuse their power becaue they can.

      If you are single, and want to stand up for whats right, and Your Rights, then I would consider it.
      If you have a family (wife and/or kids), your family's stability is more important.

  5. Blizzard is not completely guilty by Psaakyrn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You've to realize that this game is a service provided not for a single person, but for everyone who is in one the game. Blizzard has crafted a meticulous balance to ensure that people will continue paying to play for the game and be happy, and this balance greatly requires that people don't get to use shortcuts which bypasses aspects of the game which Blizzard deems as crucial for balance. For that alone I can understand why Blizzard would want to prevent bots.

    1. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Mechanist.tm · · Score: 1

      Isn't it every programmers job to try and create something to make the mundane parts of using a computer easier and quicker.

    2. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but Blizzard is more of a developer than a programmer. Glider may be a programmer, but that programming is both unauthorized, and counterproductive for the satisfaction of the network as a whole, and counterproductive for generating profit (from subscription payers) as a result.

    3. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      Also, a quick analogy. If you wanted a game which lets you win easily, just visit this link.

      http://xkcd.com/391/

      If you wanted a fun game however, you might want to rethink your strategy of making everything software easier and quicker, especially when pertaining to entertainment.

    4. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well that's the key point. Does Blizzard own/rule the communal experience of the players? Is this position implicit or explicit, and precisely what are the boundaries of their authority and responsibility?

    5. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think the issue here is whether Blizzard should or should not work to prevent bots. The question is the tactic they're using to achieve that end. And, more to the point, the legal ramifications of those tactics being successful.

    6. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      You've to realize that this game is a service provided not for a single person, but for everyone who is in one the game. Blizzard has crafted a meticulous balance to ensure that people will continue paying to play for the game and be happy, and this balance greatly requires that people don't get to use shortcuts which bypasses aspects of the game which Blizzard deems as crucial for balance. For that alone I can understand why Blizzard would want to prevent bots.

      This has absolutely nothing to do with the legal authority of Blizzard to refuse someone to use a bot. Blizzard cannot really deny a bot playing Starcraft. You own the software, you may do with it as you please.

      However, World of Warcraft is not like buying a house, it's like renting a house. You even pay a monthly licensing fee.

      I was reading through MDY's appeal, and it just reads like kind of a hack job trying to misrepresent the situation... these are not owners these are renters. Their use of the Blizzard gaming service is on Blizzard's terms...

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    7. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by beowulfcluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course they want to prevent bots, that's totally understandable. Most players probably wish them good luck with that. Does that mean players are committing copyright infringement when using something like Glider, and are the makers of Glider guilty of contributory copyright infringement? That's the question. Blizzard says yes. Sane people should say no(!).

    8. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Mechanist.tm · · Score: 1

      I said the mundane parts. For example like any open world game long distance travel in games like fall out 3 could be skipped. Is that making the game too easy for ye? You dont have to use the Glider bot but its there for anyone that does. People use cheats for games all the time. Again its up to you to use them or not.

    9. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well that's the key point. Does Blizzard own/rule the communal experience of the players? Is this position implicit or explicit, and precisely what are the boundaries of their authority and responsibility?

      Good question. If I stop paying for my account, what do I get to keep?

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    10. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ^^^^THIS IS 100% UNTRUE^^^^

      Glider was made for people to play with their own emulated servers at home not on the blizzard servers!!!!!

      If someone chooses to use glider on the blizzard servers blizzard has every right to remove their account. Glider is not arguing with that.

      Glider is saying people who own the software can run glider with it!!!!

      This is the exact same as making a bot that plays starcraft single player.

    11. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      There's a big difference between Fallout 3 and WoW. One's a single player game, the other's a multiplayer game.

      There is, as far as I know, no multiplayer game which allows cheats to be implemented by anyone other than the game host. And for a good reason: to make sure that the environment is fair. Travel distance is taken account into what is deemed as fair.

    12. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ^^^^THIS IS 100% UNTRUE^^^^

      Glider was made for people to play with their own emulated servers at home not on the blizzard servers!!!!!

      If someone chooses to use glider on the blizzard servers blizzard has every right to remove their account. Glider is not arguing with that.

      Glider is saying people who own the software can run glider with it!!!!

      This is the exact same as making a bot that plays starcraft single player.

      This is why we have real lawyers fight this stuff in court. Your argument admits all the key parts necessary to prove liability on the part of MDY in inducing people to violate their contract with Blizzard.

      The primary purpose of Glider is a violation of Blizzard's license agreement to use WoW.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    13. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by timmarhy · · Score: 1

      i don't think there is a problem with a ruling stating you don't own the game, but it better be worded very very carefully. you own the right to play it, and there needs to be strict as hell limits on just what blizzard can do to restrict HOW you play it.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    14. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      i don't think there is a problem with a ruling stating you don't own the game, but it better be worded very very carefully. you own the right to play it, and there needs to be strict as hell limits on just what blizzard can do to restrict HOW you play it.

      Renters actually have very few rights, and they have those rights simply because one's residence is so necessary.

      As a better example perhaps, take a gym membership.

      Fundamentally, you do not "own the right to play it" not at all. And any limits on how Blizzard can restrict you in playing on their servers needs to be strongly considered before restricting them.

      They own the greater part of the game experience that you're playing.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    15. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by mcvos · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Glider may be a programmer, but that programming is both unauthorized, and counterproductive for the satisfaction of the network as a whole, and counterproductive for generating profit (from subscription payers) as a result.

      How so? Blizzard is hurting their own bottom line by choosing to ban players. The players are perfectly willing to pay Blizzard for a game that they're going to have a bot play for them. The players are willing to pay MDY for a bot to play the game for them. Everybody is happy and making a profit here.

      It's Blizzard's decision to ban people that's hurting them. Of course they're allowed to ban people if they want to. It's their servers, after all. But it's stupid of them to blame someone else for their own decisions. Glider is just providing a service for there is a demand, apparently.

    16. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      As far as I can tell from the EULA, nothing (of value), since nothing can be traded outside their services.

      Is this supposed to be an issue?

    17. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A false narrative again from a lack of understanding of the law.

      You cannot induce others to violate their contracts.

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      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    18. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by mcvos · · Score: 1

      I don't think the issue here is whether Blizzard should or should not work to prevent bots. The question is the tactic they're using to achieve that end. And, more to the point, the legal ramifications of those tactics being successful.

      Exactly. I'm perfectly fine with them banning bots. What's stupid is that they sue another company over the revenue lost because Blizzard chose to ban bots. They didn't have to do that. Their decision.

    19. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by bloodhawk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No they aren't hurting there bottom line, they are helping there own bottom line, there are far more players that get pissed off and quit because of retards that bot then there are botters. It only takes a few in a battleground to completely throw off any chance of balance.

      Secondly most people are DEFINITELY not happy with the botting situation, the majority of players are screaming at blizz to do something about it.

    20. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      As far as I can tell from the EULA, nothing (of value), since nothing can be traded outside their services.

      Is this supposed to be an issue?

      Point is that without your license to play upon their service, you don't have anything. Same as a renter.

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      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    21. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 4, Informative

      Exactly. I'm perfectly fine with them banning bots. What's stupid is that they sue another company over the revenue lost because Blizzard chose to ban bots. They didn't have to do that. Their decision.

      No, they sued over copyright infringement and inducement to violate terms of a contract.

      Nowhere did they claim any damages for lost revenue.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    22. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by juuri · · Score: 1

      All the experiences and memories you had of playing the game.

      Even physical goods are temporary.

      --
      --- I do not moderate.
    23. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by mr_gorkajuice · · Score: 1

      Long distance travel in Fallout 3 is there by design. WoW picked a different route. You're free to dislike mundane aspects, but Blizzard made this game, and they're free to include it. And of course, you're free to stop playing if you really hate it.
      Also, you're free to do whatever you want in your single player games, including cheating. However, cheating in WoW impacts everyone else on the server, and I most definitely believe Blizzard has every right to protect the WoW eco-system from people who reached level 80 and 100K gold, not by playing the game, but by installing an application.

      Some players think they have the right to cheat in WoW. Some people think they have the right to play on level terms with everyone around them, and feel this right violated by cheaters. One group is gonna be pissed off. I definitely appreciate the side Blizzard picked.

    24. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      I think that is rather unclear.

      I'm almost certain that you mean:
      - Inducing others to violate their contracts is illegal
      as opposed to:
      - Inducing others to violate their contract is not a valid legal position (and hence cannot be deemed illegal).

      Clarity is important.

    25. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Their use of the Blizzard gaming service is on Blizzard's terms...

      Which may be relevant to the tortious interference with a contract action, but is utterly irrelevant to the copyright violation action.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    26. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by mr_gorkajuice · · Score: 1

      Isn't it every game designers prerogative to decide what parts should be quick and easy?
      In an RTS, it's might be quick and easy to order your squad to take out that enemy platoon, while you worry about the grander scheme of things.
      In an FPS, it's probably quick and easy to figure out what guys you need to kill, but less so to get it done.

      Leveling a character, or grinding valuables for auction house hardly qualify as a fundamental "part of using a computer".

    27. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its not really cheating. One still has to travel the given distance within the engines limitations. Its just not done by pushing 4 buttons for hours long(or whatever the avg travel time in WoW is). For example, in BF2 you can set yourself of in a certain distance, keep the forward key pressed and pres the chat button. This will make you go forward without touching the keyboard. Nobody has ever accused those people of cheating.

    28. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Mechanist.tm · · Score: 1

      Thats a good point. I dont play Wow so i dont know how much the bot actual influences/impacts other peoples games. If it is very little i dont have a problem with it but if ist alot than i would. I just see a bot walking around collecting gold and getting some xp by killing simple creatures. Is there a finite amount of gold and xp in the game? Can a person come along with that gold and buy something that you were going to buy from under your nose? Can he come up and kill you easily with the xp he has gathered? Can someone give me some indept into how it affacts your game?, thx

    29. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      It depends on your definition of cheating. Blizzard gets to define it, and the majority of subscribers accept that definition.

      Also, there is an autorun button last I played, so that is not a valid comparison regardless.

    30. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      The copyright violation is from how they bypass the anti-hack security via creating another copy of the game client.

      Which admittedly is a separate issue.

    31. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Mechanist.tm · · Score: 1

      Isn't it every game designers prerogative to decide what parts should be quick and easy? I would say no to this, it would be the people playing the game. Feedback from the community would be a good indication. If the majority dont like the bot who am i to argue, i just hope they dont like it for the right reasons. I myself think its quite a clever little tool/cheat/hack whatever you want to call it. The majority of the people here seem to side with blizzard which is fine. I just wonder if a court case is the right way to stop the Glider bot. I also wonder if the court case is about whats fair in the WoW and more about who can make money from it.

    32. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Yeah but "I was only doing my job" is not a valid defense in court.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    33. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Psaakyrn · · Score: 3, Informative

      1) Farming resources: resources spawns at nodes in a first come, first serve basis.
      2) AH sniping: I don't think they've fixed this issue yet (they didn't the last time I played.) Bots do it better naturally.
      3) PvP: Bots have better reflexes. Speedhacks also allows much faster travel, an obvious advantage in battles where travelling is an issue.

      I think that answers your 3 questions.

    34. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      - Inducing others to violate their contract is not a valid legal position (and hence cannot be deemed illegal).

      I'm sorry, but please provide an explanation of how one could read this out of my response.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    35. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 2, Informative

      Exactly. I'm perfectly fine with them banning bots. What's stupid is that they sue another company over the revenue lost because Blizzard chose to ban bots. They didn't have to do that. Their decision.

      No, they sued over copyright infringement and inducement to violate terms of a contract.

      Nowhere did they claim any damages for lost revenue.

      I'm going to take the high road, and point out Claim 49 of the counter claim. They did.

      It's also part of their pray for relief F.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    36. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Mechanist.tm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thanks for that. makes sense now.

    37. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't you?

    38. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      In an RTS, it's might be quick and easy to order your squad to take out that enemy platoon, while you worry about the grander scheme of things.

      Unfortunately that's not how most RTS games work, for some reason developers of these games seem to think that what all RTS players crave is tight quick battles where they have to control everything. Hell, in most so-called RTS games you can't order a few units to travel from point A to point B reliably, you actually have to keep an eye on the minimap to make sure they don't decide to wander halfway across the map and attempt to take some convoluted path through the enemy's base (ok, this doesn't happen all that often but does happen) and when it comes to combat you pretty much have to position units manually unless you're doing a tank/zerg/whatever rush. A great example of this from Red Alert 3 is if you send a small "navy" with a couple of carriers to take out the enemy base and your defensive units (non-carrier units) will happily let the carriers get blown to bits by the enemy, that's AI for you...

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    39. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by nschubach · · Score: 1

      Unless, of course, you have a few on your side as well.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    40. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      1. The phrase "You cannot" can imply that something is impossible.
      2. We know it isn't actually impossible, so we have to examine the context
      3. The current context is law.

      Final interpretation: In the context of law, inducing others to violate their contracts is an impossibility.

      And yes, like the grandparent I did notice this upon the first reading, ending up with two contradictory interpretations, causing me to stop and consider the true meaning in the greater context. All stemming from the careless use of the word cannot.

    41. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How so? Blizzard is hurting their own bottom line by choosing to ban players. The players are perfectly willing to pay Blizzard for a game that they're going to have a bot play for them. The players are willing to pay MDY for a bot to play the game for them. Everybody is happy and making a profit here...... Glider is just providing a service for there is a demand, apparently.

      Blizzard is also providing a service, one for which there will be very little demand if botting is allowed. Hence, they are protecting their profits, and their customers' gaming experience, by rooting out and banning the cheats. Plus, there is also the fact that much of the botting that takes place is actually on compromised accounts; Glider is being used by people who are not only cheats, but criminals.

    42. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by qubezz · · Score: 1

      You don't get to keep the hours you've wasted collecting virtual prizes?

      I would break the game CD in half so it can never be used to sucker anyone in again, mail it back to Blizzard, along with a letter saying that you do not do business with companies that sue their customers. If a few thousand people did this along with their account cancellation, and a list of games that they will never be purchasing now, maybe these slimeballs would get the idea.

    43. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by ukyoCE · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting that there either is already or should be a different legal remedy for software contract violation other than copyright infringement?

    44. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 1

      You dont have to use the Glider bot but its there for anyone that does. People use cheats for games all the time. Again its up to you to use them or not.

      That way of thinking doesn't hold up in any multiplayer game.

      I mean, just because all the other weightlifters in the all-drug olympics are using steroids doesn't mean you have to, right? Unless you want any prayer of ever winning.

      Let's be clear, Blizzard isn't anti-botting because of a love of the purity of the game; they're anti-botting because a lot of players are not interested in playing with/against bots and therefore will vote with their dollars against it.

    45. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by AltairDusk · · Score: 1

      Glider may be a programmer, but that programming is both unauthorized, and counterproductive for the satisfaction of the network as a whole, and counterproductive for generating profit (from subscription payers) as a result.

      How so? Blizzard is hurting their own bottom line by choosing to ban players. The players are perfectly willing to pay Blizzard for a game that they're going to have a bot play for them. The players are willing to pay MDY for a bot to play the game for them. Everybody is happy and making a profit here.

      It's Blizzard's decision to ban people that's hurting them. Of course they're allowed to ban people if they want to. It's their servers, after all. But it's stupid of them to blame someone else for their own decisions. Glider is just providing a service for there is a demand, apparently.

      Ignoring all the legalities for a moment let me see if I can shed some light here. Blizzard is not hurting their bottom line by banning players who cheat using bots. Yes they lose the revenue from that player's subscription, what you are ignoring here is the revenue they lose from players who actually play the game that get fed up with all the botters and quit.

      I've played WoW on and off for quite awhile now, I can tell you firsthand botters ruin some of the atmosphere and people who use them to gather mats negatively effect the in-game economy. Someone who doesn't cheat will have a difficult if not impossible time making gold with a gathering profession as there are people using bots to gather constantly and selling at far cheaper prices than that mat would be worth if someone actually spent their time to get it.

      People who use them to level are often terrible players when they hit max level and start joining groups because after 80 levels of the program doing it for them they have no idea how to play their character. The bots do have a negative impact on the game which is why Blizzard puts a lot of effort into getting rid of them.

    46. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess it depends on how you feel about Glider reading from protected memory and injecting code into the system while evading Blizzard's Warden cheat-detection mechanism.

    47. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Blizzard argues that bots cause people to leave their game. Something I would need to see data on.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    48. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Scoth · · Score: 1

      Along with the other post, the other big impact is player skill. Part of leveling is learning how your character works, skills to use, gear combinations, etc.If someone uses a bot to level, they don't get this. They simply end up with a max-level char or four and no clue how to use them. This greatly impacts any pickup groups they might end up in, and has led to a lot of people (including myself before I quit) almost completely avoiding pickup groups for much of anything and going with their guilds. Or, perhaps, a guild alliance of reasonably trusted folks. I know on my server/guild alliance we kept a list of people who performed especially badly and refused to group with them (not talking middlin'/average players here, we're talking people who'd cause repeated deaths on first pulls of raids/instances). The funniest were level 80 people in level 60-70 basic green quest gear because it "looked cool".

      It's possible to play WoW completely solo, but it's tricky to completely avoid grouping.

    49. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      I would break the game CD in half so it can never be used to sucker anyone in again, mail it back to Blizzard, along with a letter saying that you do not do business with companies that sue their customers.

      er... you are aware that Blizzard isn't suing their customers, but the makers of a program that is used by "customers" to break the World of Warcraft Terms of Service, which people agreed to when they signed up for a WoW account and have to re-agree to every time Blizzard updates the game?

      Side note: This is an entirely separate document from the EULA, and is in fact the contract that Blizzard mentions in their legal documents.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    50. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by geekoid · · Score: 1

      2) Stop putting stuff up for low prices for transfer. BTW Sniping can be done without a bot.

      3) As far as a know there is a PVP bot. There are automated scripts the push buttons for you. Something Blizzard. doesn't have a problem with.

      Speedhacks aren't bots. Plus it will take about 4 minutes before you are banned.

      I don't think a company inability to make a game people can't manipulate meas they get to tell you what to do on your computer.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    51. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blizzard has crafted a meticulous balance to ensure that people will continue paying to play for the game and be happy, and this balance greatly requires that people don't get to use shortcuts which bypasses aspects of the game which Blizzard deems as crucial for balance.

      Blizzard could address at least part of this dispute by detecting Glider and using WoW's in-game "phasing" to put the botter in their own little universe, where they can't see or be seen by other players. I won't have to deal with somebody soaking up all the herbs/minerals/NPCs, and the botter gets what they want. Everybody (who's not a lawyer) happy, and no court time spent.
      Whether phasing exists in vanilla WoW or the BC expansion, or can be turned on anywhere in WotLK is another stack of fish.

    52. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by amplt1337 · · Score: 1

      You've still got a bunch of bits on a DVD. The fact they aren't good for much shouldn't mean you don't own them.

      --
      Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
    53. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by mcvos · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying Blizzard is wrong in banning them, I'm just saying it's a bit silly to complain about the revenue they lost due to the banning of players they didn't want anyway.

      But as a solution to make everybody happy, why not make a special server where bots are legal? Move all botting players to that server where they can still pay for not playing the game together with other level 80 newbies.

    54. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by mcvos · · Score: 1

      TFA claims they did:

      Blizzard detected and banned a lot of players who used Glider. They then sued MDY for all the subscription fees they lost from the banned player (plus a ton of other cash).

    55. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      This is why we have real lawyers fight this stuff in court. Your argument admits all the key parts necessary to prove liability on the part of MDY in inducing people to violate their contract with Blizzard.

      The primary purpose of Glider is a violation of Blizzard's license agreement to use WoW.

      RTFA. It wasn't always this way, but Blizzard modified the agreement mid-stream.

      And anyway this would only be important towards the interference claim. Blizzard already lost that claim, by itself, by failing to prove they were harmed more than helped.

      Everything hinges on the only important part - whether Blizzard can use copyright law, and subsequently the power of the government, to stipulate things that happen outside the use of their servers or whether their power only extends so far as banning offenders.

    56. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you suggesting that there either is already or should be a different legal remedy for software contract violation other than copyright infringement?

      Are you suggesting that software contract violation is the only way Blizzard can prevent bots?

      Maybe you could just say what you mean next time, instead of asking a snotty question.

    57. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "You've to realize that this game is a service provided not for a single person, but for everyone who is in one the game."

      If this is the case they have a monopoly, and should open up the game to legit modification. No more $25 mounts, these people are already paying for the game and blizzard has a captive audience in it's own right WoW is a market, and blizzard has the WoW market to itself.

    58. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by ukyoCE · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting that software contract violation is the only way Blizzard can prevent bots?

      No, OP said "Of course they want to prevent bots, that's totally understandable." I took that to imply the OP thinks there is another course of legal action Blizzard should be taking instead of the copyright approach. No snottiness intended.

      In this case I understand glider to be running WOW in emulation, essentially, which does make typical bot-detection methods rather fruitless.

    59. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "You cannot induce others to violate their contracts."

      Contracts don't exist without signatures.

      Show me where I signed my name in a manner identifiable with ME.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    60. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Magada · · Score: 1

      You do realize, of course, that you should be angry at Blizzard for making a game so boring and mindless that any human player (even the "best") can be substituted or in fact even superseded by a couple of small, dumb scripts - not only that, but people would rather pay extra than do these tedious tasks themselves, in order to get to the few nuggets of fun?

      --
      Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
    61. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Blizzard's Warden should be good enough for a lawsuit of invasion of privacy and unauthorized use of a computer.

      I didn't explicitly authorize in writing the added usage of my resources beyond THE GAME ITSELF. All add-on software that is NOT THE GAME is disallowed. Also, I didn't explicitly authorize in writing for Blizzard's software to continually scan OTHER PROGRAMS IT HAS NO LEGAL RIGHT TO OBSERVE.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    62. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are not paying for "your account." You are paying for a service they offer.

    63. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by GasparGMSwordsman · · Score: 1

      This has absolutely nothing to do with the legal authority of Blizzard to refuse someone to use a bot. Blizzard cannot really deny a bot playing Starcraft. You own the software, you may do with it as you please.

      Except Blizzard makes no legal distinction between Starcraft and WoW. They claim that you are bound by the EULA in both cases. They claim that you NEVER own any blizzard software product, that you only lease (rent) them.

      This is where I have my objection, in both cases you have made a purchase and should legally OWN the client side software. That does NOT give you the right to play WoW as that includes the server side software that you do not own.

      I want to play WoW, fine I have to agree to the ToS and pay my monthly fee. I have to not use bots (I don't like bots anyways) or any other such things or I loose my account. I am fine with all of that. But even if I do loose my account, I should still OWN the client side software.

      Owning the software means that should I loose my account I should not be liable for copyright infringement for continuing to break the EULA:

      Termination.
      This License Agreement is effective until terminated. You may terminate the License Agreement at any time by (i) permanently destroying all copies of the Game in your possession or control; (ii) removing the Game Client from your hard drive; and (iii) notifying Blizzard of your intention to terminate this License Agreement. Blizzard may terminate this Agreement at any time for any reason or no reason. Upon termination for any reason, all licenses granted herein shall immediately terminate and you must immediately and permanently destroy all copies of the Game in your possession and control and remove the Game Client from your hard drive.

    64. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by GasparGMSwordsman · · Score: 1

      Concise and well said.

    65. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I'm perfectly fine with them banning bots. What's stupid is that they sue another company over the revenue lost because Blizzard chose to ban bots. They didn't have to do that. Their decision.

      It depends on what they're attributing their losses to. I expect Blizzard has had to dedicate a fair amount of resources to dealing with the damage Glider was doing. They were in the arms race of locking out Glider / detecting cheaters using Glider. Then they were having to deal with account banning and handling customers who (honestly or otherwise) claimed surprise that using Glider was an issue. And they had to deal with customers who were getting annoyed at watching cheaters running their scam. While all this is a part of doing business in these area - it was an expense that was being greatly advanced by the efforts of MDY.

    66. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ^^^^THIS IS 100% UNTRUE^^^^

      Glider was made for people to play with their own emulated servers at home not on the blizzard servers!!!!!

      If someone chooses to use glider on the blizzard servers blizzard has every right to remove their account. Glider is not arguing with that.

      Glider is saying people who own the software can run glider with it!!!!

      This is the exact same as making a bot that plays starcraft single player.

      If someone realistically believes Glider was developed for private servers I have some land upon a 100% safe sinkhole to sell you. MDY can say all they want what their vision for Glider is but Glider is and always has been developed for botting. Why do you think a good chunk of gold farmers have more or less disappeared from the game? They can't bot now so they are hijacking accounts instead. Everyone used to talk about Glider and using fishing bots, farming areas, automating things, etc until the banning started.

    67. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      Not quite... Simply killing mobs solo is not an efficient way of leveling a character. You gain far more experience (and thus level faster) by questing. It just happens that camping on a mob spawn point and attacking anything that comes in range is easier to script.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    68. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      I didn't explicitly authorize in writing the added usage of my resources beyond THE GAME ITSELF.

      Did you click the "I Agree" button at the end of the EULA? Legally, that's authorization enough.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    69. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      One fundamental flaw with your idea: While resources can be phased within a zone, once those resources show up on the auction house, they affect the realm economy as a whole. Farming resources takes time. As such, I expect to be "compensated" for my efforts by getting a fair price at auction. Someone using a bot to farm doesn't have this time investment and can thus sell his resources at a drastically undervalued price.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    70. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      ^ Perhaps you need to get a copy of Econ For Dummies and look up the difference between a "market" and a "service". Your post makes no frikkin sense whatsoever.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    71. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      "Cannot" meaning "not legally allowed to" vs "are not able to"

    72. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      Except the "service" is bullshit, you can relabel anything and call it a "service" that doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean I'm ignorant you fuck.

    73. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      Please, keep talking. Your lack of any coherence on the matter is hilarious! It's like laughing at the retarded kid without any guilt.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    74. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Americano · · Score: 1

      The argument they are using seems to be that "since MDY induced these players to violate their contracts & use Glider, we had to ban those players, thus reducing our revenues from those players."

      The argument seems to hinge on the premise that the players *would not* have violated their contracts if MDY had not induced them to.

      I'm not a lawyer, but this would make sense in the context of a civil claim - you can't just say "I don't like what they're doing. Make them give me money." You have to outline exactly how MDY has done something that is against the law which has caused you harm, and then claim that those activities have damaged you & thus MDY needs to compensate you for those damages.

    75. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      1. The phrase "You cannot" can imply that something is impossible.
      2. We know it isn't actually impossible, so we have to examine the context
      3. The current context is law.

      Final interpretation: In the context of law, inducing others to violate their contracts is an impossibility.

      And yes, like the grandparent I did notice this upon the first reading, ending up with two contradictory interpretations, causing me to stop and consider the true meaning in the greater context. All stemming from the careless use of the word cannot.

      Thanks, got it. This is why language sucks... ambiguity abounds, and it's nearly impossible to see it yourself.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    76. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Blizzard already lost that claim, by itself, by failing to prove they were harmed more than helped.

      Actually, this was Count I, and they were granted it by a stipulated judgement.

      Blizzard lost the Unjust Enrichment claim because they could not quantify the damage done by people leaving the game due to cheating.

      Everything hinges on the only important part - whether Blizzard can use copyright law, and subsequently the power of the government, to stipulate things that happen outside the use of their servers or whether their power only extends so far as banning offenders.

      No, it hinges upon contract law first, before copyright law. Their argument is that upon violation of the contract, the user no longer has a right to use their program, and that any attempted use of that program is thus a copyright violation.

      Analogy: you rent an apartment. Your possession of that apartment is contingent upon a contract. Upon violation of that contract, your possession can be taken away. Once said possession has been taken away, you are not allowed to return, or it is trespass.

      Next up, you own an apartment building. Your rental agreements state that the tenants are not allowed to paint their walls. A painting company comes along and says to your renters that although they know that painting their walls is against the terms of their contract, they will come in and paint them anyways. This painting company is inducing other to violate their contracts, and may be sued by the apartment building owner.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    77. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Better analogy: you rent an apartment which provides you with cable TV. You record said on a DVR, which is prohibited by contract, and they hold you liable for copyright infringement to the tune of seven million dollars.

      Your painter's example requires demonstrable harm. My DVR example includes the notion of fair use.

    78. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Better analogy: you rent an apartment which provides you with cable TV. You record said on a DVR, which is prohibited by contract, and they hold you liable for copyright infringement to the tune of seven million dollars.

      Your painter's example requires demonstrable harm. My DVR example includes the notion of fair use.

      Eh... close, but still not quite.

      This is more like countersuing the person who provided the DVRs, because the person who provided the DVRs knew (and openly and publicly stated) that he was inducing renters to violate the contract, got told to stop inducing renters to violate the contract, and brought suit in a court to have a finding that they are not doing anything wrong.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    79. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PJ, is that you?

    80. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by ildon · · Score: 1

      Listen, if you don't play WoW, don't try to talk about it. Botters in battlegrounds are not like aim botters in an FPS. They run into the middle of the zone and cast random spells so that the auto-afk-detection system won't boot them out. They contribute nothing to the game. It is to your advantage for the *other* team to be filled with bots. They ruin the game by putting you at a numbers disadvantage if they're on your side, and by cheapening your win when they're on the opponent's side. And yes, winning too easily will discourage someone into quitting a game after a certain amount of time.

    81. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you teleport in Fallout 3, your computer doesn't have to continue to keep track of millions of other entities outside your view range, and thousands of players interacting with those entities. Additionally, "in game" time passes due to you teleporting, which is physically impossible in a multiplayer game (while maintaining a static instance of the world). Also, in Fallout 3 there are still restrictions such as not being able to fast travel while an enemy is actively pursuing you, and there are in-game consequences for the passage of time while fast traveling.

      In other words, the reason you can teleport in Fallout 3 is because that game was specifically designed with that as an intentional mechanic. Even WoW has flight paths and portals and teleport spells that function within specific limitations designed for the game. The "boring" parts of WoW are part of the game just like the "boring" parts of Fallout 3 are part of the game. If those parts are too boring for you, the solution is to not play the game, or possibly complain to the developers and hope they change it. The solution is not to just cheat. And here is where the line is drawn between Fallout 3 and WoW. In Fallout 3, when you cheat, you're only cheapening your own game experience. It has no effect on me when I play Fallout 3 without cheating. When you cheat in WoW, you're damaging the game experience for thousands of other players on that server. You're diminishing the availability of in-game resources for them, you're taking up space, and you're lowering their perception of the quality of the game experience.

    82. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by ildon · · Score: 1

      That's not how PvP bots work, or the problem with them. PvP bots run into the middle of the zone or follow a random player and cast random spells. They are very obvious and are not a threat to anyone. The problem with them is that they waste space in battlegrounds which have a limited number of players per team. If your team has 2 bots and it's 10v10 normally, it's now effectively 8v10 and you're at a severe disadvantage. Not only that but it cheapens the win of the team without bots, which will eventually cause those players to lose interest in PvP if it happens too frequently or to an extreme degree.

      There are in-game tools to get rid of "afk" players, but they don't function against these bots because of the random spell casting and following other players around.

    83. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by ildon · · Score: 1

      Bots can't do anything in WoW beyond farming minerals/herbs or just solo killing mobs in the world for gold/drops. They can't complete dungeons or raids, and pose no threat to semi-conscious players in PvP. The method bots use to level is so mind-numbingly boring and inefficient that no sane player would attempt it themselves.

    84. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by ildon · · Score: 1

      And that meth lab in my basement is just for me to educate myself on the chemical process of creating meth. Same goes for my marijuana farm in the garage. I just love gardening. Nice try, buddy.

      You know, at least I can have some respect for people who try to claim they have the right to cheat on Blizzard servers, because at least they're being honest.

    85. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Khyber · · Score: 1

      'Did you click the "I Agree" button at the end of the EULA? Legally, that's authorization enough.'

      That isn't what happened when I took EA to court over Spore. :)

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    86. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Magada · · Score: 1

      There must be some advantage to killing those mobs, or the people wouldn't be complaining that bots are hogging spawns.

      --
      Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
    87. Re:Blizzard is not completely guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whats your stake in this? Do you work for Blizzard? You seem to be defending them an awful lot in this comment thread.

      I'm positive you are a gamer at the very least, hence why you have 'girl' in your nickname, to ensure the maximum number of MMO handouts.

  6. The brief is interesting reading... by Nogami_Saeko · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The case opening brief makes for interesting reading.

    There's one curious omission though (as near as I can tell, I only skimmed it). Ongoing payments.

    Although the brief does mention that the game is available for retail purchase, or download, it makes no mention that an online account that requires an ongoing service charge is required in order to play. I suspect that Blizzard could argue that while the Glider author may not be circumventing the game client itself, it's making an illegal copy of the data stream for which the gamers pays an ongoing fee.

    That said, I believe Blizzard is in the wrong on this one by going the legal route. I believe they have every right to modify their Warden software to scan for and ban accounts which use glider and other bot programs. They're just worried about losing revenue by banning customers, rather than by going directly to the source.

    N.

    --
    "Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
    1. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Krneki · · Score: 2

      There isn't a way to ban Glider. the fact is, the program is using the same input a human does. This is why they are taking legal action.

      Having an AI to play the game for you is not any more unfair then being jobless and playing 20 hours a day.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    2. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by snowgirl · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There isn't a way to ban Glider. the fact is, the program is using the same input a human does. This is why they are taking legal action.

      Having an AI to play the game for you is not any more unfair then being jobless and playing 20 hours a day.

      I cannot put up my own curtains at a rental home/apartment. The reason is that the owner has the right to ensure that the appearance of the house/apartment building conforms to their satisfaction.

      You are only the possessor of the World of Warcraft program... it requires extensive interaction with their servers to operate. You have a license that dictates the terms of your use of this service (just like a rental agreement). If they don't want AIs to play the game, then by god, that's their right.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    3. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Nogami_Saeko · · Score: 1

      They can (and do) ban glider by updating their warden software to detect glider in memory, or by doing statistical analysis on player actions (time between keypresses, duration keys are held for, which areas players are in, what they're doing, etc). All of this can be faked, but it's a matter of how much trouble someone will go to. If Blizzard really wanted to throw a wrench into these types of programs, there's all sorts of random elements they could include that would play havoc with them. But again, it would also impact regular players, which they don't want.

      Warden is the easier of the two, but it's an ongoing arms-race between the companies. The analysis of player actions takes more effort as they may flag accounts for GMs, who could whisper something to the player and boot/ban them if there's no reply from glider.

      --
      "Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
    4. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by mr_gorkajuice · · Score: 1

      It ain't.
      No where did any piece of legislation say that all intelligence, whether artificial or human, was created equal, and human rights does not apply to computers.
      Sure, you say your AI is entitled to play WoW, but who gives a shit what you say.

    5. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Krneki · · Score: 3, Funny

      You are so 20th century. :)

      Free the AI!! :)

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    6. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Oh thank god you're not insane.

      Sometimes it's hard to spot sarcasm/satire/parody when you're trying to be serious.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    7. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Krneki · · Score: 1

      Actually the day when we will discuss if we give AI human rights will come. There will be some inevitable fights and opposing ideas. But like we aborted slavery we will liberate the AI.

      Once the dust will settle we will look back to the days when the AI was not allowed to play games.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    8. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Once the dust will settle we will look back to the days when the AI was not allowed to play games.

      Right, but the AI has to be rational enough to make moral choices, and be held responsible for its own actions.

      AI is not anywhere near that right now.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    9. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      Of cause, there'll still be issues. Will direct connectivity (as opposed to an indirect mechanical input) be allowed? Would AI and humans be segregated regardless? (this doesn't mean inequality, more of disparate communities with interactions) Would AI inhibiting the same body be granted separate identities?

      Also random note: Freefall (comic) does touch into many of these AI issues. Nice read, that.

    10. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      Hey, that's a touchy issue right there. How gets to define what is moral? How does one determine the maturity of an AI?

    11. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by dangitman · · Score: 1

      conforms to their satisfaction.

      "Conforms to their satisfaction?" That's the weirdest sentence I've read all week. Surely, one's satisfaction is the result of a stimulus, rather than an instigator?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    12. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Krneki · · Score: 1

      Is you cat allowed to play WoW?

      If the cat has this right, why not the AI?

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    13. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      On hindsight, I don't think that's a requirement, AFAIK WoW minimum age is not the legal adult age (rational enough to make moral choices, and be held responsible for ones own actions).

    14. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Usually when you rent an apartment you and the owner of the property are in full agreement on what you may and may not do with the apartment. You also sign a contract to document that you have an agreement.
      In the case of WoW I have never heard of any store actually requireing that a customer signs the EULA before purchase and thus only those things that any regular customer would think is obvious and/or reasonable will be part of the purchase agreement. I would consider not being able to use the product I bought for the purpose I intended it for as a violation of that agreement.
      I don't think any customer expects blizzard to ban them from the game servers for any reason since they gladly sell their product to everyone and his mom without stating their intentions. If I was one of their customers and they decided to ban me I would see this as a violation of the purchase contract and request a refund from the store where I bought the game.

    15. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Just because someone want's something doesn't make it their right.
      Do I really need to make a list of things Blizzard could put in a EULA that they would clearly have to right up hold?

      The owner of that house doesn't have the right to tell you how to interact with your television, or the right to tell you what color of skin you can't let in your house.

      Plus, you analogy isn't even relevent to the issue at hand.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    16. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Lisandro · · Score: 1

      Im moral. You're not!

    17. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "I believe they have every right to modify their Warden software to scan for and ban accounts which use glider and other bot programs."

      Thanks for giving them the right to violate the privacy of my computer and the software which I run upon it.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    18. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by ildon · · Score: 1

      Yes it is. A jobless player is unlikely farm herbs 20 hours a day because it simply is not fun. They are unlikely to continually join battlegrounds and not contribute and lose, because that is not fun. The effort/reward for a real player simply does not match up. A bot has no sense of fun or effort/reward.

      And yes, while there is the 0.1% of players who are immune to something being "not fun", bots open up that possibility for the other 99.9% (including those with jobs etc.) to be useless assholes and waste other players' time and cheapen their game experience.

    19. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by ildon · · Score: 1

      He's not giving them that right, you are by running their software and agreeing to their EULA. If you don't agree to the terms, don't play the game.

    20. Re:The brief is interesting reading... by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "He's not giving them that right, you are by running their software and agreeing to their EULA."

      Not true. Most certainly that wasn't what happened when I took EA to court.

      Give you a hint: I won. EULAs are bullshit and even the courts know it.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  7. Funny by muridae · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I still find it amusing that Blizzard is going after the makers of Glider, when the license violation is on the part of each player using it.

    Sure, maybe Glider is infringing on some trademark or copyright, but the company making it did not facilitate the user in violating the license any more than the authors of libpcap facilitated someone running ShowEQ and violating Sony's license. The route Blizzard seems to be going ends up at, "The user violated our license, and so we want them to pay the next 20 years of subscription fees while we also cancel their account. After all, they would have paid us anyways." which is patently, and I hope legally, ridiculous. Nothing at all shows that these users would have continued playing if they did not have access to a program like Glider, in fact I recall back in the peek of EQ people quitting when seq or mq or any of the other programs got defeated. If they just got banned, they bought other accounts.

    If Blizzard is really egotistical enough to claim, in a court of law, that the user would play if only they had played by our rules, than let them sue the user. Better yet, let them track down which users are not only still playing, but purchased new accounts to do so. Then lets hope the judge laughs them out of the court room.

    1. Re:Funny by Psaakyrn · · Score: 2, Informative

      According to Wikipedia, Glider makes a copy of the WoW client (as opposed to just running on top of the client), so the software itself does infringe on the license.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_(bot)

    2. Re:Funny by snowgirl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your argument at first sounds about right, but unfortunately it is specious.

      An individual can be responsible for inducing someone else into violating the terms of their contract.

      MDY knew that use of their program violated the terms of use of World of Warcraft. There is no use of Glider that does not violate the terms of use for WoW. Therefore selling this induces people to violate their contract.

      If people did not enjoy the game under the ToU, then they have a contractually allowable response: cancel their account.

      They do not have the right to break that contract, and MDY suggesting to them that they are allowed to do so, is textbook inducement to violate the terms of a contract.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    3. Re:Funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The courts holding is very specious, its like saying I can't run two copies of Word at the same time. Its a copy running in memory according to the link you sent. This decision is stretching the meaning of copying software and I wonder if they even understand what they are talking about. I can't wait till the current batch of the judiciary is replaced with a younger generation that understands technology.

    4. Re:Funny by snowgirl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The courts holding is very specious, its like saying I can't run two copies of Word at the same time. Its a copy running in memory according to the link you sent. This decision is stretching the meaning of copying software and I wonder if they even understand what they are talking about. I can't wait till the current batch of the judiciary is replaced with a younger generation that understands technology.

      The courts ruling is not specious.

      Gilder created another unauthorized copy of the game, which is not necessary to play the game.

      This copy was for the specific purpose of avoiding detection by the anti-cheating software Warden.

      The first proves the copyright violation, the second proves the inducement to violate the terms of a contract. ... this coming from a girl with extensive history in emulation and virtualization.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    5. Re:Funny by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      Actually, from the wikipedia link it is entirely unclear whether the copied memory is edited in any manner (I would think it is, if the sole purpose is to circumvent a anti-cheating device). If there is any editing of the memory, Blizzard has a perfectly valid case.

    6. Re:Funny by Rockoon · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think you missed the point tho.

      It is the people that run glider that are violating that copyright, not the people that authored glider.

      If anything, the authors would be in violation of the DMCA and not copyright, right?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    7. Re:Funny by Muros · · Score: 1

      If anything, the authors would be in violation of the DMCA and not copyright, right?

      Right, because the Digital Millenium Copyright Act is not about copyright.

    8. Re:Funny by Anti+Cheat · · Score: 1

      That is patent ageism. Not only is it prejudiced it is patently wrong. Many judiciary do understand technology and use it on a daily basis. I see blackberry's and laptops in the hands of many judges. You need to visit a modern court building and look in the offices, under the arms and in the briefcases of judges and lawyers..

      So if you are going to use that argument. I would have to say, that the youth of today lack the education, experience and sense of morals to understand the right of a company to protect it's IP from interference. Crackers and hackers that reverse engineer and steal that IP should be held accountable. They have no right to rewrite a book and sell it. Nor do the same thing to Blizzard's software. They have no right to distribute something that is designed specifically to interfere with blizzards service in such a way that it changes the intent of this service.

      The youth of today are far to ego centric and hedonistic to understand what is simply wrong to do. They have no sense of respect for others. I blame our educational system and especially the lazy parents for a bad upbringing and spoiling their children to the point where instant gratification blinds them to the reality of what is right and wrong. This is why so many here cheat and fear that Blizzard will win and hold the glider author accountable for CP infringement and/or breaking the license agreement. This generation is afraid this will take their toys away and devastate their self esteem. After all. For most this is really about self esteem and for the author of glider it may have started that way, but now it is also about the illegal profits he has made through theft.

      This is rationalization at it worse when a lot in this group argue that you have the right to do what you want, no matter the impact on others and that includes the Blizzard company. You hold companies to account but fail miserably in holding yourselves accountable. The consequences of ones actions is lacking. Just because someone can do something doesn't mean they should. You blame the courts for making poor decisions based on twisted facts but feel that same action doesn't apply to individuals. Getting off or losing because of a technicality is still wrong, no matter how you look at it.You want the courts to be more responsive to what is right and wrong but you again don't hold up individuals to the same level of expectation. Glider is wrong on so many levels and all I see are rationalized excuses trying to explain why it is ok. Is it that bad that this younger generation can't tell simple right from wrong anymore.

      Take what i have said about the youth of today and apply the intended meaning to my words. Sadly i don't think some will get it. They simply are to much of a sociopath to get it. The same could apply to those that head some companies but hide behind the corporate protections. It is Sad that we continue to support this from either side and when some justices do try to change it, a sad segment of society screams unfair. It is supposed to be about what is fair and just. That is the last thing a large segment really want.

    9. Re:Funny by Rockoon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Right, because the Digital Millenium Copyright Act is not about copyright.

      Violating the DMCA (with its anti-circumvention rules) is not the same as violating copyright. Seriously... you are grasping here.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    10. Re:Funny by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I still find it amusing that Blizzard is going after the makers of Glider, when the license violation is on the part of each player using it.

      Isn't this the same thing as going after Pirate Bay instead of the people who are using Pirate Bay?

    11. Re:Funny by geekoid · · Score: 1

      next up, suing knife maker when someone misuses a knife.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    12. Re:Funny by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Violating the DMCA (with its anti-circumvention rules) is not the same as violating copyright. Seriously... you are grasping here.

      The DMCA is not a separate document. Is it a law that added new sections to existing copyright law. Specifically, it added chapters 12 and 13 as well as amending a number of existing clauses in Title 17 U.S. Copyright Law.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    13. Re:Funny by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I can use it on servers that don't use Blizzard services.

      You assume the point in the EULA is legal. Just because it's in a EULA or in a contract doesn't make it enforceable.

      I am very tempted to write my own automated interface and sell it as an aid to handicapped players. Watch Blizzard go down in flames as they try to fight that one.

      Your view on contracts is... simplistic.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    14. Re:Funny by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Whoops, chapter 13 is unrelated. My bad. I just assumed all the recent chapters were DMCA.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    15. Re:Funny by atchijov · · Score: 1

      1) very small % of WoW players heard about glider and even smaller % ever used it
      2) huge part of WoW experience is well balanced economy, bots (and gold sellers) really screwing economy - hence negatively affecting every WoW player.
      3) from my understanding how glider works - it is VERY hard for Blizzard (or even impossible) to automate process of detecting accounts which uses glider.

      Bottom Line: Blizzard has only 3 options:
      1) Ignore the problem and have WoW experienced worsened for many "legit" users,
      2) Try to make it impossible to implement glider like functionality,
      3) Sue any company which trying to bring gliders to the WoW.

      Blizzard can not live with option #1 - unhappy customers liable to leave. They trying to work on #2, but when you run on something as insecure as Windows, it is quite futile. So the only thing left - sue them.

      And they do have good case against MDY. Glider work in very much the same way as some more sofisticated viruses (the only difference, is that Glider does all "bad" things in memory only).

    16. Re:Funny by IpalindromeI · · Score: 1

      And they do have good case against MDY. Glider work in very much the same way as some more sofisticated viruses

      That's not really an argument against Glider. A lot of software works the same way, including anti-virus software and Blizzard's own Warden software. Should we make those illegal?

      --

      --
      Promoting critical thinking since 1994.
    17. Re:Funny by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      I can use it on servers that don't use Blizzard services.

      Yes, because we all know that that is a licensed use of the WoW client...

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    18. Re:Funny by tuxedobob · · Score: 1

      the company making [Glider] did not facilitate the user in violating the license

      How do you propose one bots without a bot program?

    19. Re:Funny by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      next up, suing knife maker when someone misuses a knife.

      No analogy here. Although, if someone is working at a kitchen, and has a contract with their employer to only use knives from a specific company, but then a knife maker comes by to them and sells them some other knives knowing full well that it violates the employment contract...

      Well then, the kitchen has every right to sue the knife maker for inducement to violate contract.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    20. Re:Funny by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      I can use it on servers that don't use Blizzard services.

      Yes, because we all know that that is a licensed use of the WoW client...

      But if you own the content of the box when you purchased it, there's no problem, right?

      Look at the brief. It explicitly spells out what isn't permissible under copyright law, and EULA's aren't part of that arrangement.

    21. Re:Funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gilder created another unauthorized copy of the game, which is not necessary to play the game.

      As far as I'm concerned, anything I do on my own computer is my own damn business.

  8. really? by acehole · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you're needing a bot to play for you its time to give up the game.

    Even though wow is a shadow of its former self.

    --
    Be you Admins? nay, we are but lusers!
    1. Re:really? by Krneki · · Score: 1

      If you like a game it does not imply you like every aspect of it. With a bot you skip the parts you don't enjoy (anymore).

      I say, if you paid for it, do what you want. (moral exception applies).

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    2. Re:really? by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      If you like a game it does not imply you like every aspect of it. With a bot you skip the parts you don't enjoy (anymore).

      I say, if you paid for it, do what you want. (moral exception applies).

      Do this with your apartment. Just paint the walls, and put in your own walls.

      See how far that gets you.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    3. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be equivalent to changing things in the game world so that it affects future gamers. That's not happening here.

    4. Re:really? by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      That would be equivalent to changing things in the game world so that it affects future gamers. That's not happening here.

      No. Renters are not allowed to do those things because they are simply in possession of the property, but not the owners of the property.

      Thus, renters are banned outright from doing just about anything but transient changes to the property.

      Owners also have the right to forbid renters from changing the external appearance of the property as well... so, go chew on that one.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    5. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're needing a bot to play for you its time to give up the game.

      Most botters do not play the game, and have little interest in doing so. In my experience (and I have reported many bots to the GMs), most bots are accounts that have been compromised via keyloggers and taken over by criminals who, after having stripped the account of anything of value, proceed to set them up as bots to collect more ores/herbs/gold/whatever to funnel to the goldsellers.

    6. Re:really? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Because I have palsy I'm not allowed to play the game?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    7. Re:really? by tuxedobob · · Score: 1

      Then don't do the parts you don't like.

    8. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, Glider was quite popular in TBC with normal players in my experience, because there were no Bind on Account items, and experience during leveling was not nerfed by 35%. When Blizzard introduced BoA items and nerfed the experience required to level by 35% they really destroyed the Glider community that was using it to level new alts when they couldn't stand burning through the same zones for the 5th or 10th or 15th time.

      In WotLK - the Glider population is almost exclusive either
      a) gold farmers, who run Glider on hacked accounts with no reprocussions, or
      b) people who are using aspects of Glider to cheat the game - like auto-interrupt in PvP that automatically and instantly interrupts say, healing spells - even on focus targets, making it impossible to juke-cast in arenas (starting to cast a spell, then quickly stopping it so the human reaction time interrupts a spell you are no longer casting - vs a machine you lose this every time). Or people who are speed hacking or even teleport hacking.

      I've fought arenas against hackers before, its rare but the first game you lose because you almost have a paladin dead, then they teleport 50 yards away and up onto a platform, behind a box (dalaran sewers) where they are free to heal to full and then sit and drink - you become pretty polarized on the issue.

      There is a gladiator team on my battlegroup who have one of the highest scores in both 2's and 3's, and everyone knows they blatantly cheat - but there is nothing we can do about it.

      When you cheat in obscurity to farm gold buy endlessly killing low level mobs in a backwater zone for rare drops to sell on the AH - no one cares. When you hold one of the most distinguished titles in the game because you publically cheat - that's bullshit.

      I respect Blizzard for going after the company, I just hope they are big enough to pull it off. It's an excellent precedent for MMO's, because going after individuals is a never ending war of the hackers, where you might have a handful well-paid experts actively detecting problems, but you have 13 million players with some incentive to cheat: even if only to level the playing field against the other cheaters (Diablo II anyone?)

  9. Don't tell us what programs we can and can't run by mykos · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    As if intellectual property owners didn't have ENOUGH legal clout these days (including guilty-until-proven-innocent instaverdicts)! Cheating or not, no software company should be able to tell us what programs can run in tandem with theirs.

  10. The Catch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This case is one of the few that is testing EULA vs you know, actual sane things like property ownership.

    granted Botting is generally reviled by all who play MMOs... (same with spammers and gold farmers).

    however the main reason they exist is simple: Time = Money.

    botting = more Time playing thus more ingame Money / gear such to use to play the game yourself.

    That being said some of the EULA's i've worked my way through are so much legal bullsh!t that it'd take a lawyer a week to work through what exactly it says.

    EULA are barely enforced at the moment... however... if EULA become enforceable then what the laws giveth the small print can take away
    (and another thing about the case was Blizzards use of Copyright Law to win the case)

    And if you like owning software good luck in 5 years you won't be able to BUY software anymore
    you'll just purchase a limited use license and heaven help you if you want to play the game 5 years down the line.

    Steam is a nice example of this... its done well... but at its core is this...
    YOU no longer OWN your game. you cannot sell the game to anyone, you cannot lend the game to a friend, and the game owners or Steam can decide you can't play the game for any reason with little to no recourse.

    1. Re:The Catch by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      I don't mind EULAs being tested, if it's tested in an environment which gives a non-clear advantage to the EULA enforcer. It would be a very bad day if EULAs are deemed enforceable, just because of this case.

  11. High Price of Success by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

    I'm glad Blizzard was able to shut down MDY and go a long way towards interrupting Glider and it's ilk. But I'm afraid Blizzard's lawyers are being too smart for everyone's good. The legal tactic has been successful in achieving this goal. And I'm not sure that there's a more effective way to go about it. However, the legal ramifications are startling.

    1. Re:High Price of Success by mykos · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah, I hate cheating too, but this is too high of a cost. It's like using a guillotine to fix your dandruff.

    2. Re:High Price of Success by geekoid · · Score: 1

      There are technical solutions for these issues. but they want to dictate what programs you can and can't run.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:High Price of Success by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      There are technical solutions for these issues. but they want to dictate what programs you can and can't run.

      Well, sure there are technical solutions. But are they as effective? A lot of these solutions seem to be more reactive than anything. And that's not always the best way to handle a threat.

      Having said that - sometimes reactive mitigation is the only sensible alternative. There are times one could be more pro-active but end up doing more damage; the cure worse than the illness. And I think this is one of those times.

    4. Re:High Price of Success by toriver · · Score: 1

      The point is that Glide implemented a counter-solution to the technical solution. So Blizzard could either keep playing the game of the automators or they could short-cut by going to the courts. And win.

    5. Re:High Price of Success by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      The point is that Glide implemented a counter-solution to the technical solution. So Blizzard could either keep playing the game of the automators or they could short-cut by going to the courts. And win.

      And the point that you are missing is that while Blizzard wins the right to defend their video game, Microsoft gains the right to revoke your Windows license should you get a virus - for example.

      In short we lose more than they win, and therefore the cost is too high.

  12. It's a sports competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Blizzard worries - and should worry - the other users. No-one could care about bots if it didnt affect the users (or, optionally, a disproportional (24/24) load on the game servers).

    The game is a competition. As in other sports, there are rules that regulate the competition. No doping, no cheating, no helping by others. It goes as far as that new clothing materials may have to be tested and approved or disapproved.

    The reason is obvious: to allow a fair competition. As soon as someone breaking the rules is 'allowed', the other competitors will rightfully complain. It's not else in the blizzard game - you -knowingly- obstruct other user's gameplay. Thereby hinder other users.

    Having said that all, i'm not sure why they have to go the 'legal' way - blizzard could just ban all involved accounts.

    Legally, i'm not sure if this ownership discussion is needed at all. Blizz should use this competition element, and the aspect of fair play / breaking the competition rules. Because, suppose this situation: A free game, open-source if you like, no monthly fees. Someone setting up a gameserver for this and banning users that cheat. Who owns the software in this case? Does the owner of the game server _not_ have the right to ban users (or: have the right to ask them to create an account in the first place?). Taking away all copyright ownership issues, Blizz should still be able to make the case - they offer the service of a competition, they must be able to regulate such competition and disqualify cheaters. No more no less.

  13. Perhaps I'm missing something by RogueyWon · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Perhaps I'm missing something here, but isn't the summary a bit misleading? It's not ownership of the copy of the game you've bought that's being contested; it's the right to play it on Blizzard's own servers. Now, admittedly, the game isn't much use if you can't connect to those servers, but it's not as if you didn't know that when you bought the game.

    However, Blizzard is not talking about going into anybody's home and taking away their physical copy of the game, or requiring them to delete it from their hard drive. People like to say that piracy isn't theft because it doesn't deprive the rights-holder of their original copy of the software. Ok, I can buy that. It doesn't mean that piracy isn't A Bad Thing (TM), but I can agree that it isn't theft. So by the same token, Blizzard isn't contesting anybody's ownership of the game - just the right to play it on Blizzard servers.

    As a former WoW player (quit cold-turkey 6 weeks ago due to needing my life back) I'm supportive of Blizzard. Stuff like Glider just ruins the experience for legitimate players and I'm glad they take steps to guard against that.

    1. Re:Perhaps I'm missing something by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Blizzard isn't contesting anybody's ownership of the game

      Blizzard's Counterclaim 82. "Users of WoW are licensees, and are permitted to copy WoW only in conformance with the EULA."

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    2. Re:Perhaps I'm missing something by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is what you are missing:
      They are not cutting off people from their WoW servers for violating the terms of use. That's the usual response to botting, just ban the people that did it. They have no right to play on the official servers anymore and everyone is happy (except for the botters of course which is good).
      The problem is that Blizzard didn't go after the botting players. They went after the guys who programmed the bot. They went to court and sued people writing a program that plays WoW for you. Now I agree that using that program to log on to an official server is an offense that should get players banned but programming a tool that can play WoW shouldn't be illegal in any way.
      If the court really has to decide in favor of Blizzard it will be another clear sign of how corrupted and way to extended the current copyright is.

    3. Re:Perhaps I'm missing something by GasparGMSwordsman · · Score: 1

      It's not ownership of the copy of the game you've bought that's being contested; it's the right to play it on Blizzard's own servers.

      Except it is entirely about who own the local copy of the game. If the I OWN the box copy of WoW that I buy in the store, then Blizzard looses all but one of its claims. Read the EFF's summary, it says all of this better than I can. Here is one excerpt:

      If you own your software, you have the right to resell it and the right to make copies and adaptations as necessary to use it. If you don't, well, then you face a possible copyright lawsuit for transgressing any limitations the vendor puts in the license agreement.

      https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/you-bought-it-you-own-it-mdy-v-blizzard-appealed

      However, Blizzard is not talking about going into anybody's home and taking away their physical copy of the game, or requiring them to delete it from their hard drive.

      We are actually. Blizzards asserts that you are forever bound by the EULA because you NEVER own any software product purchased from Blizzard. If you read the EULA you will find that if at any point you end the license agreement you must destroy all copies - including physical copies - of WoW. If you fail to do so you are committing copyright infringement and may be liable for massive damages. Here is the section from the EULA:

      7 Termination.
      This License Agreement is effective until terminated. You may terminate the License Agreement at any time by (i) permanently destroying all copies of the Game in your possession or control; (ii) removing the Game Client from your hard drive; and (iii) notifying Blizzard of your intention to terminate this License Agreement. Blizzard may terminate this Agreement at any time for any reason or no reason. Upon termination for any reason, all licenses granted herein shall immediately terminate and you must immediately and permanently destroy all copies of the Game in your possession and control and remove the Game Client from your hard drive.

      So by the same token, Blizzard isn't contesting anybody's ownership of the game - just the right to play it on Blizzard servers.

      Except they are entirely contesting ownership of the game. They have stated emphatically that you NEVER own any Blizzard game EVER.

      As a former WoW player (quit cold-turkey 6 weeks ago due to needing my life back) I'm supportive of Blizzard. Stuff like Glider just ruins the experience for legitimate players and I'm glad they take steps to guard against that.

      I hope you "immediately and permanently destroy(ed) all copies of the Game in your possession and control" when you stopped playing WoW in accordance with the EULA.

    4. Re:Perhaps I'm missing something by Kharny · · Score: 1

      Without permission making money of someone elses product? that's not illegal any more?

      --
      Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
  14. Re:Don't tell us what programs we can and can't ru by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did your parents have any children that weren't retarded or are you an only child?

  15. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  16. Incomplete summary by mwvdlee · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    You paid for it, you have the DVD in your drive and the box on the floor next to your desk, but do you own the game?

    Yes you do. ...but do you also have the server in your room?
    You can add any bot or cheat you want to the game, as long as you don't connect it to the official server.

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    1. Re:Incomplete summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep the only issue with that is if we roll back to the case against KALI, and Free Battlenetd its illegal to make something that emulates blizzards servers, so I guess a check mate you suck is in order.

  17. Blaming someone else for your own decisions by mcvos · · Score: 1

    The most bizarre thing about this lawsuit is that Blizzard is suing MDY for lost revenue, because Blizzard chose to ban players. Blizzard didn't have to ban those players. They could have taken away their money and levels and allow them to continue playing. Blizzard made a choice. It's completely ridiculous that they blame that choice on someone else.

    It might have made sense if MDY was sued by its customers who got themselves banned for using an MDY product. That I would understand. Blizzard suing MDY is completely retarded.

    1. Re:Blaming someone else for your own decisions by snowgirl · · Score: 2, Informative

      The most bizarre thing about this lawsuit is that Blizzard is suing MDY for lost revenue, because Blizzard chose to ban players. Blizzard didn't have to ban those players. They could have taken away their money and levels and allow them to continue playing. Blizzard made a choice. It's completely ridiculous that they blame that choice on someone else.

      It might have made sense if MDY was sued by its customers who got themselves banned for using an MDY product. That I would understand. Blizzard suing MDY is completely retarded.

      Blizzard didn't sue them for lost revenue (as I was able to see.) Blizzard obtained a judgement against MDY copyright infringement, and inducement to violate a contract.

      --
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    2. Re:Blaming someone else for your own decisions by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      The most bizarre thing about this lawsuit is that Blizzard is suing MDY for lost revenue,

      That would have been bizarre if they'd done it, but they didn't.

      --
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    3. Re:Blaming someone else for your own decisions by snowgirl · · Score: 3, Informative

      The most bizarre thing about this lawsuit is that Blizzard is suing MDY for lost revenue,

      That would have been bizarre if they'd done it, but they didn't.

      Since you made me read the whole Counterclaim, claim 49.

      MDY’s sale of WoWGlider has caused Blizzard great harm in the direct loss of
      revenue from terminated users, the loss of subscription revenue from WoWGlider users availing
      themselves of the cheat, and from the severe damage to the goodwill of the non-cheating
      population of WoW users.

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    4. Re:Blaming someone else for your own decisions by Rogerborg · · Score: 3, Informative

      Count 49 is an assertion of facts, not a claim for relief.

      They successfully claimed: Tortious Interference With Contract; Contributory Copyright Infringement; Vicarious Copyright Infringement.

      They failed in their claims of: Violation of the Digital Millennium; Trademark Infringement; Unfair Competition (where they claimed to have been damaged but couldn't prove any damages); Unjust Enrichment (where they did attempt to claim lost revenues, but only because - they said, but could not prove - people capped and left, not because Blizzard chose to ban them, as the GP asserted).

      So, OK, little from column A, little from column B. The core issue remains that of ownership and Title 117; just about everything else is a distraction.

      If I had to call it, I've have given them claim 4, the DMCA violation, since that's the more pertinent legislation.

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    5. Re:Blaming someone else for your own decisions by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Count 49 is an assertion of facts, not a claim for relief.

      Prayer for relief F:

      Awarding Blizzard monetary relief including damages sustained by Blizzard in an amount not yet determined.

      "(where they did attempt to claim lost revenues, but only because - they said, but could not prove - people capped and left, not because Blizzard chose to ban them, as the GP asserted)."

      Use of WoWGlider impoverishes Blizzard by altering the game balance in World
      of Warcraft®, damaging Blizzard’s reputation with players dissatisfied with the pervasiveness of
      cheaters and the effect of cheating on the game, and depriving Blizzard of monthly membership
      revenue by enabling users to progress in the game more quickly than legitimate players.

      So, not for "capped and left".

      The final judgement gave claim 4 to Blizzard as well. They did not get it by summary judgement, but did get it by bench trial.

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    6. Re:Blaming someone else for your own decisions by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Blizzard didn't sue them for lost revenue (as I was able to see.)

      I only know what TFA told me:

      Blizzard detected and banned a lot of players who used Glider. They then sued MDY for all the subscription fees they lost from the banned player (plus a ton of other cash).

      But TFA might well be wrong.

    7. Re:Blaming someone else for your own decisions by ildon · · Score: 1

      depriving Blizzard of monthly membership
      revenue by enabling users to progress in the game more quickly than legitimate players

      That is "capped and left".

  18. Iffy on this one by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hoping for a so-so verdict here. The court should allow anyone to modify software they've purchased in any way they wish.
    However, the court should allow Blizzard to block connections from any modified software they detect (just like Apache disconnects clients which violate the HTTP protocol).
    However, their should be recourse for false-positives to get their money back.

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  19. Poor game design by ReekRend · · Score: 1

    If your game can be successfully "played" by a bot in this day and age, then it's a pretty bad game.

    Back to the question of why do so many people want to play a game that effectively makes them a bot?

    1. Re:Poor game design by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      Chess is a bad game?

    2. Re:Poor game design by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      Also note: some of the ongoing challenges is to make a bot which plays like a human. There has been major strides in the FPS instances, where they actually have to tune the bot to make it more human-like (aka not perfect, simulating emotions, using "your mom" insults...)

    3. Re:Poor game design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Touché

    4. Re:Poor game design by ReekRend · · Score: 1

      Haha I knew someone was going to say that... you know that's not what I meant. However... I haven't found chess interesting since about middle school. Programming my brain to be a chess computer seems pretty boring, and it was obvious that a computer would ultimately be better at it.

    5. Re:Poor game design by ildon · · Score: 1

      WoW cannot be "played" by a bot. They can't complete dungeons or raids and cannot kill players who are paying attention in PvP. What they can do is ruin the PvP experience of other players by wasting limited player slots in battlegrounds, frustrate players in dungeons by wasting a player spot there, and harm the economy by farming more minerals/herbs than any sane player could possibly procure on their own.

  20. Re:So maybe, then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe if your game is so broken that "It becomes unbalanced if you play it for a really really long time" is something you need to get the U.S. Government to step in and help you work-around, it's time to make a game that isn't so hideously broken?

  21. The consequence of this: by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'll choose Microsoft for an example, although this sort of boilerplate is fairly standard. I quote from the license terms for Microsoft Office:

    The software is licensed, not sold. [...] You may not:

    • work around any technical limitations in the software;
    • use the software in any way that is against the law;
    • rent, lease or lend the software;

    The first user of the software may make a one-time transfer of the software, and this agreement, directly to a third party.

    And many other restrictions.

    So Microsoft can (successfully, in the Central District of California) sue you for copyright infringement the moment you load Office into RAM after: fixing their product for them; using it for any purpose that is "against the law" (which law?); borrowing it from anyone; buying a 2nd hand copy.

    You think that's ridiculous? The U.S. District Court for the Central District of California doesn't think so. They think that the EULA gives Microsoft exactly that right.

    This is not hyperbole or speculation; this is now established case law in that District (pending appeal).

    You don't think Microsoft would ever exercise this power? OK, pick a different name then. Adobe. Apple. SCO. Choose your poison.

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    1. Re:The consequence of this: by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      So Microsoft can (successfully, in the Central District of California)

      Cite, please? :D

  22. missing the point by smash · · Score: 1

    Whether you own the software or not, you're still bound by the terms of service to connect to their network and use their servers.

    --
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    1. Re:missing the point by nschubach · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Right, but they aren't going after the users that violate the terms. They are going after another product that enhances or extends their product in a way which they do not approve.

      Woo, a car analogy...

      Just as you are licensed to drive on the road, you have to follow the rules. If, however, you wanted to drive off roads you do not need a license or comply with any rules (except those of the land owner...) but you bought your vehicle for the expressed purpose of driving on a road, then found out later that you can drive it in your field.

      Now, you find out that it isn't quite as fun in your field so you go and modify your vehicle.

      From what I gather, Blizzard is saying that since you bought the game to play on their servers, any modification of that game is illegal, even if you intent to play that game on another server not owned by Blizzard.

      This would be kind of like GM suing aftermarket part companies for allowing you to put a lift kit on your vehicle and change the way it handles.

      --
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    2. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with your analogy is that you BUY a car. Blizzard is argueing that you don't buy their software, you buy an account, and the software is liscensed to you. To correct your car analogy, your driver's liscense implies (Based on local regulations) that the vehicle you drive on the road will conform to certian specifications that make it 'street legal.' A more accurate modification scenerio would be if you modified your vehicle to remove the catalytic convertor (legally required on most gasoline engines in most states) so that you can get more power/better milage, etc, and then procede to drive it on the road. If you get caught, you're going to get a ticket, and depending on the situation, you might even get your car taken away.

    3. Re:missing the point by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Pretty accurate, except GM owns all the roads and they're perfectly entitled to declare your vehicle not street legal.

      But yeah, instead of doing that they're saying the mods themselves are illegal. Just ban the bastards and move on, no refunds. Just look at VAC.

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    4. Re:missing the point by Kasamir · · Score: 1

      This would be kind of like GM suing aftermarket part companies for allowing you to put a lift kit on your vehicle and change the way it handles.

      It's closer to them suing the maker of the lift kits, which would be fine and dandy if everyone signed a contract saying they wouldn't when they purchase the car.

    5. Re:missing the point by nschubach · · Score: 1

      In that scenario though, instead of punishing the user/driver that replaced their catalytic converter by taking away their license, the State is going after the manufacturer of the catalytic converter...

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    6. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. They're going after the manufacturer of the Catalytic Converter remover.

      Which even fakes the results when you take the vehicle to emissions inspections to keep your registration up to date.

    7. Re:missing the point by tuxedobob · · Score: 1

      Honestly? I don't really care if they have the legal standing or not. I hope they get a ton of money from the Glider guy, or company, or whatever, simply because he enabled large scale botting and thereby harassed a large percentage of the playerbase.

    8. Re:missing the point by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      No, equivalent car analogy is that you're leasing the car.

      If that is true that you do not have the ability to modify the car in anything other than a transitory manner.

      --
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    9. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, but they aren't going after the users that violate the terms. They are going after another product that enhances or extends their product in a way which they do not approve.

      Wrong, Blizzard has banned thousands of accounts for using Glider and other bots, several times. They continue to do so for botting, farming, etc etc. Plus, calling a program designed specifically to cheat the system an 'extend' or 'enhance' function is tenuous at best. Is using steroids in the Olympics just 'extending' performance? This is also about the fact that Glider co willingly violated the Blizzard TOS / EULA, as do all the people who run this crap.

      Woo, a car analogy...

      Just as you are licensed to drive on the road, you have to follow the rules. If, however, you wanted to drive off roads you do not need a license or comply with any rules (except those of the land owner...) but you bought your vehicle for the expressed purpose of driving on a road, then found out later that you can drive it in your field.

      Now, you find out that it isn't quite as fun in your field so you go and modify your vehicle.

      From what I gather, Blizzard is saying that since you bought the game to play on their servers, any modification of that game is illegal, even if you intent to play that game on another server not owned by Blizzard.

      This would be kind of like GM suing aftermarket part companies for allowing you to put a lift kit on your vehicle and change the way it handles.

      No offense, but what a stupid ass analogy. This is more like you buy a Ford and then mod it with illegal aftermarket parts and then take it down to the raceway and bitch and moan when you aren't allowed to race. All you have to do is look at the mod community out there for WoW and all of the extensions, code, and help Blizzard has made available for mod users to realize that they aren't trying to stifle people 'enhancing' or 'extending' their product, it's obvious that they are attempting to curb cheating the system and hacking code. This is very important on a live, real-time gaming system where people are spending money to have a solid, reliable experience.

      All in all, it's really pretty simple. If you don't like to play WoW the way it is, don't fucking play it. Bitching and moaning because you can't blatantly cheat or modify the game to play the way you want is petty bitch-made behavior, and those aren't the people reasonable gamers want to play with anyway. This isn't a car, it's not some mod project, there aren't any inalienable rights people have to fuck up and change other people's code. I don't remember the amendment where being a fuckbag cheat is a protected right.

    10. Re:missing the point by ildon · · Score: 1

      If people using glider did not intend to connect to Blizzard's servers, then your analogy would work. But we all know that's a lie. If glider was intended to only function on private servers it would not need to take any steps to get around Blizzard's cheat detection, because there would be no ramifications on its users for cheating.

  23. Re:Don't tell us what programs we can and can't ru by f3rret · · Score: 2, Informative

    I mean ostensibly I can see how the Glide bot could be considered 'legal' in and of itself, I am of the firm belief that if you buy a game you can use (or abuse if you so desire) it any way you want.

    Now in the case of WoW the EULA is not just for the game (which you own, or ought to anyhow) but also for the servers (which are owned by Blizzard). So seems to be that it is entirely fair that Blizzard can dictate what you can and cannot do on their servers, if they decide that they do not want a bot running on their servers then a they are in the clear when they ban the user of said bot.
    I mean it is fairly commonplace for people who run multiplayer notepad servers (excuse me I mean 'IRC servers) to say that they do not want unauthorized bots on their servers and most FPS games implement anti-cheating and systems and will ban people who cheat.

    So Blizzard are not so much telling you what you can or cannot run on your computer as much as they are telling you what you can and cannot use on their servers.

    --
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  24. Ugh. They have no case. by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Yes. You own the client. Not the server. You pay for access to the server. This is how Blizz makes it's cash. Why hasn't this been thrown out?

    You paid to agree to certain rules. If you don't like it. Don't play on their servers.

    --
    Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
  25. You own the Car by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

    You own the Car, but not the race track. In order to race on the track you are not allowed to use any device that drives for you.

    If you are going to do that, they will not let you race with the other racers. But by all means take your modded car and race it in your own backyard, see how far that gets you.

    The questionable thing here is that the race track owners are going after the manufacturer of the device, and not the racer at fault.

    This is much like how Hollywood goes after ISPs instead of individual file sharers. Blizzard is enforcing its ToS, simple.

    1. Re:You own the Car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If you are going to do that, they will not let you race with the other racers. But by all means take your modded car and race it in your own backyard, see how far that gets you."

      Blizzard sued bnetd clones, so no, you can't race in your backyard.

    2. Re:You own the Car by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      No, that would be racing in a small privately run race track with potholes and no pit lane.

  26. Can bots be considered legal entities? by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

    Keeping in mind that the person who click the "I agree" button and installed the game is not the one playing but rather a collection of scripts and programs, will anyone ever try and sort if a bot can be considered a person for the purpose of upholding legally binding agreements between game publishers and gamers? Skynet would be scary in PvP, is all I'm saying.

  27. To stop botting and farming... make a better game! by Zaphod-AVA · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The reason why bots and gold farming exist is because the game is flawed. If sections of the game are not overly long, boring, and repetitive, there won't be a demand for services to skip that part of the game or play it for you.

    Stop designing games that waste the players' time without providing fun. If you want to keep people as subscribers design your game to have replay value instead of long travel times or grinding.

  28. question by dr_strang · · Score: 1

    If they didn't sell the client, just the service, this wouldn't really be an issue, would it?

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    1. Re:question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they don't sell the client. You can download it directly from their website, and then go play on a private server without ever having paid for it. But if you decide you want to play on their servers, you have to pay the $50 fee to create an account. Some users, who buy a cd in a store, may have the illusion that they're buying the game, in reality they're buying the code inside that box that allows them to set up an account without paying the setup fee.

    2. Re:question by GasparGMSwordsman · · Score: 1

      They claim that they DON'T sell the client. Blizzard claims they rent you a service (which includes the physical disk you "obtained" at the store, you don't own that). If they did sell you the client then this would not be an issue.

  29. What about servers? by Yvan256 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    What happens when Square-Enix decides to shut down the last Final Fantasy XI server? I'm pretty sure they won't release the server program, the server source code or even the game protocols.

    What the hell is wrong with Square-Enix? I can still pick up a used copy of Astrosmash and play it on an Intellivision but I won't be able to play FF XI in a few years? We have to rely on hackers who do reverse-engineering on the protocols to try and emulate the servers to keep the game alive?

    1. Re:What about servers? by toriver · · Score: 1

      Playing a MMO is time consumption, not time investment. If you watch a two hour movie, the movie will end after two hours, you cannot pay another $10 to make it last longer. Nor is it like you can complain that Babylon 5 ends after five seasons with the argument that you have paid for the DVD sets and therefore demand a sixth season (no, Rangers does not count).

      Games are entertainment products. Some "entrepreneurs" (eupheism) have found ways of monetizing that time investment, but by and large you do not get any more out of a MMO subscription that you get from television watching.

  30. "Owning" not a good argument by stewbacca · · Score: 1

    It would be one thing if WoW wasn't a game where you joined the world with millions of other players. If you are playing offline, do whatever the hell you want with the game you bought. However, my gameplay suffers when others violate the terms of agreement and flood the game with bots.

    So yes, you do own the CD and you can do whatever you want with it...as long as you stay off of my server.

    1. Re:"Owning" not a good argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you agree with Glider's defense and the lawsuit should be tossed out of court. Good.

  31. Re:To stop botting and farming... make a better ga by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    You are wrong here. The whole purpose of glider is greed. The purpose of any bot in the game is greed. The player wants something and doesn't want to work for it - be it gold, honor, experience/leveling, etc. Some can be attributed to laziness. A lil bit can be getting around a repetitive thing, sure, but there are choices.

    Gold farmers farm gold using bots/scripts so they make gold faster so they can sell it to people too lazy to earn it themselves.

    Obviously you have no idea how MMO economies work - if every player were allowed to have unlimited/superfast earned amounts of money, the inflation would be enormous, raising prices, causing players to look to buying money anyways so they can purchase the highly-inflated items.

    To a smaller extent, the earlier argument about the end-user breaking the EULA is correct. However, the way Glider works (and why you don't see Blizzard going after other script engines - like AutoHotKey) is because of how Glider actively injects into the system in memory, changing the client, to evade the Warden security system. Which is copyright infringement to an extent (no one has a license to distribute an application that changes the WoW client) - and is why Blizzard went after Glider. Sure, user accounts are banned, and people here won't complain about that much.

  32. Re:To stop botting and farming... make a better ga by Bobakitoo · · Score: 1

    Press 'ENTER' to win the game.

    Games are fun the first time. Then you play it again, knowing whats ahead and suddenly the previously fun early part become overly long and boring. The only way to fix this would be that each time the player start a new game, it a completly new and unpexpected adventure. Good games try to do that, but soon you run out of new senario and it become boring again. The game is not the problem, it the human nature. Peoples are lazy, that all.

  33. this sounds like apple vs psystar and others where by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    this sounds like apple vs psystar and others where the they try take control of what you do with software / hardware that you own.

    Lexmark tried to pull shit like this to lock out 3rd party ink and lost.

    apple vs psystar apple won round 1 but there are appeals and this case may impact apple vs psystar.

    garage door openers tried to lock out 3rd party remotes and lost.

    adobe and M$ tried to lock out resale useing stuff like this and lost under the rule of first sale.

  34. Rick-rolled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did anyone else read that Blizzard rick-rolled Donnelly by putting the link in the source-code that Donnelly was manipulating? .... hilarious.

  35. Grinding is a waste of time by naz404 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Grinding is a waste of time.

    I once wrote several bots in Javascript for a MUD to get around horrible time-wasting grinding. The funny thing was that bots were illegal in that MUD and I got around it by having my bots notify me with audio cues on the different events happening in the MUD so I could take over manually when the admins started to suspect I was botting. Got away with it... hybrid cyborg chatbots can pass turing tests :) The cool thing about it was that my little pets were running around the dungeons, fighting, eating when hungry, heading to the well when thirsty and resting when tired, etc while I was free to code away and work and do other more practical tasks.

    Oh, btw: how to get away with botting more: roleplay that your character is a bot! ;) Had fun playing with my pet GIR from the Invader Zim cartoon series :)

    Also, question: Who is more robot-like? The person who does meaningless repetitive motions for hours or days at a time (grinding) or the person who sets a bot to grind, thus freeing himself to do other things and enjoy more of life?

    From Wikipedia, origin of the word robot: The word robota means literally "work", "labor" or "serf labor", and figuratively "drudgery" or "hard work" in Czech and many Slavic languages.

    So who is the real robot here? It's the people who waste their time meaninglessly grinding especially when it's no longer enjoyable.

    1. Re:Grinding is a waste of time by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Who's the real seven billion ton robot monster here?

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  36. Re:To stop botting and farming... make a better ga by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MMOs are competitive environments, the reason for botting is to get more stuff then everyone else faster than them even if they have been playing for months longer than you.

    If the grinding was really that boring, there wouldn't be that much interest in the first place. How many people bother using Trainers in single player games?

  37. Oblig Stargate by Anomalyst · · Score: 1

    If it ascends, would that restrict it from interfering with actions on the mortal plane, train or automobile? :P

    --
    There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
  38. This is being misrepresented by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While you do pay for the game, you also pay monthly for the ability to use it, i.e. access to blizzard's servers. Plenty of people run WoW private servers, but they're all pretty bad from my understanding. I think the idea here is that blizzard wants to limit what you can do on their server more than what you can do with their software. Speaking as somebody who has played WoW, things like glider are very bad for the atmosphere in the game, and they hurt it for everybody. I can see why they'd want to stop you from using that.

    So really, the problem here is the fuzz between owning the game and using the game. If you don't like it, you could use glider on a private server, but if you want to use Blizz's server, you have to play by their rules. The only problem I see is that I don't think the license differentiates very well between what you do with the game on your computer and what you do with it on Blizzard's computer, as though they just assume you will use their servers.

  39. His own fault by Khisanth+Magus · · Score: 1

    This guy made a crapton of money off of Blizzard's game without giving anything back, in a manner that was questionably illegal, and unquestionably immoral.

    Even then, Blizzard gives him a chance to bow out honorably, and he essentially spits in their face and makes funny faces at them while saying "neener neener neener, I'm gonna continue selling it and you can't stop me." If I was Blizzard I would have sued him too if I thought I could get away with it.

  40. Glider is fun by mcb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Running Glider was one of the most entertaining things I did while playing. Glider comes with default behavior for every class, but you can develop your own in C#. I ended up writing some code for my druid to be a "Healbot", basically causing my character to run around and heal nearby allies.

    It was quite simple - it would search for nearby players and try to stay in the middle of everyone. It would throw heals over time on anyone within range that was slightly injured, and cast big heals on people taking a lot of damage. I used it to farm honor in the PVP battlegrounds. After letting it run for hours, I'd take a look at the chat log and see lots of tells from people thanking me (it) for heals. Never once saw a comment calling it out as a bot. The mod I used to queue battlegrounds took screenshots of the match results, and many times my bot was #1 on healing (often by a large margin).

    It was fun tweaking all the settings, by the time I maxed out on honor the code was pretty robust. I ended up modifying it a bit to follow around specific people (awesome for power leveling).

    1. Re:Glider is fun by herring0 · · Score: 1

      Reading this story and many of the responses I'm surprised that there aren't more akin to this. While some of the MMOs have been addictive to me (no more, children are much more fun) every game I've played that has given me the most enjoyment has been for reasons that you describe.

      MUDs, Doom, Duke Nukem, Quake, Unreal, gobs of RPG type games and, lastly, MMOs provided me ample opportunity tweak and see what I could make them do. In some cases it was directly and easily modified. Other cases required external tools, but in every case I was interested in seeing how far I could push the mechanics.

      Playing the games are fun. Pushing them to their limits are what I enjoy. This is pretty much true for me in most aspects of my life, though.

    2. Re:Glider is fun by kellyb9 · · Score: 1

      Running Glider was one of the most entertaining things I did while playing.

      This isn't going to the most popular thing ever said on slashdot, but here we go... if the most entertaining part of a game is watching an application play it for you, maybe the game isn't that good.

    3. Re:Glider is fun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe the one person just...has preferences that mean he enjoys something else besides the game. Or doesn't enjoy some aspects of it.

      I don't enjoy Football. I might enjoy making a Football kicking pneumatic leg...but I wouldn't say it means the game isn't fun.

    4. Re:Glider is fun by bckrispi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It was quite simple - it would search for nearby players and try to stay in the middle of everyone. It would throw heals over time on anyone within range that was slightly injured, and cast big heals on people taking a lot of damage. I used it to farm honor in the PVP battlegrounds. After letting it run for hours, I'd take a look at the chat log and see lots of tells from people thanking me (it) for heals. Never once saw a comment calling it out as a bot. The mod I used to queue battlegrounds took screenshots of the match results, and many times my bot was #1 on healing (often by a large margin).

      "Kudos" for writing a clever application. "Go screw yourself" for being a lousy, stinking cheater.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    5. Re:Glider is fun by bckrispi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No. The poster is just a cheater. He gets off on cheating in battlegrounds. He gets off on the wholly unearned praise he gets from other players. He gets off on "finishing #1" when that honor fairly belongs to someone else. Don't blame the game for this loser's social inadequacies.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    6. Re:Glider is fun by tuxedobob · · Score: 1

      I know another game you might like.

    7. Re:Glider is fun by mcb · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you don't play wow, or the rules have changed, but that's not how the battlegrounds worked (a few years ago).

      There is no bonus for being first on the meters. Being first was not depriving anyone of anything. It's merely a way to show how effective the code was.

      You cannot steal honor from anyone. Everyone gets the same honor based on how many kills they're involved in and how well the team does in the match.

      One of the biggest reasons one side would lose a BG is lack of healing, so if anything my bot was probably helping people gain honor.

    8. Re:Glider is fun by mcb · · Score: 1

      Well I did say "one of". I enjoyed arena and raiding as well.

      Also, it was the process of developing the behavior that was fun, not "watching" it.

    9. Re:Glider is fun by mcb · · Score: 1

      Definitely, I've always enjoyed checking out game mods, map editors and other customizations.

      Quake 1 was one of my favorite games, I still can't believe how long I played it, but between running a server and trying all the different game modes that came out, there was a lot to keep me busy and interested other than just playing it.

    10. Re:Glider is fun by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      I get the moral outrange and angsty-bit, but why the sexual angle? You might want to seek help.

    11. Re:Glider is fun by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      There is no bonus for being first on the meters. Being first was not depriving anyone of anything.

      You yourself mentioned all the praise you got for your healing, beating the #2 guy by "a large margin". Those accolades rightly belonged to someone else.

      You cannot steal honor from anyone. Everyone gets the same honor based on how many kills they're involved in and how well the team does in the match.

      Really? Without your bot, more of your teammates would have died. More of your battlegrounds would have been lost. This would have given more honor to your opposing team. How is this not stealing honor?

      One of the biggest reasons one side would lose a BG is lack of healing, so if anything my bot was probably helping people gain honor.

      Again, at the expense of your opposing team who was likely playing fairly. I find it amazing that someone so familiar with the game's mechanics that he can write such an optimal healbot is unaware of this most basic of concepts.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    12. Re:Glider is fun by mcb · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's a... unique way of looking at it. I really didn't care about the other side losing. The point of the battleground is to help your team win. It was less effective than if I was playing and giving it my all, but more effective than the average player (since almost nobody healed in battlegrounds).

      This is actually the first time I've seen this reaction to BG botting with a smart bot. Most people are glad it's one less AFK bot sitting in the cave in AV.

    13. Re:Glider is fun by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

      Or, you know, he's a geek and into things like designing systems to automate tasks that humans do.

      I spend about 60% of my work hours finding ways to have computers automate things that human workers are paid to do, and I find it fascinating. I understand if you think "WoW is serious business" but really - taking something like that game environment and designing scripts that can handle automation within it can be pretty interesting.

      To be blunt, if getting praise because *you* personally are able to do something in a battle ground that *I* can write software to do as well or better - that seems like you're the one with the issue. I mean, shouldn't you go and find a hobby that isn't so mindnumbingly stupid and easy that a duffer can write software that is able to outperform you?

      If anyone's inadequate, it sounds like you. But hey, that's just my take as someone who could write a script that is "smarter" than you within this game's parameters.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    14. Re:Glider is fun by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      I spend about 60% of my work hours finding ways to have computers automate things that human workers are paid to do, and I find it fascinating. I understand if you think "WoW is serious business" but really - taking something like that game environment and designing scripts that can handle automation within it can be pretty interesting.

      Yes, it's very interesting. And I've already praised it upthread for its cleverness. But it's still fucking cheating. If you want to play with bots, be my guest. But do it in a way that doesn't screw with other players who pay to play what they should expect to be a fair game.

      To be blunt, if getting praise because *you* personally are able to do something in a battle ground that *I* can write software to do as well or better - that seems like you're the one with the issue. I mean, shouldn't you go and find a hobby that isn't so mindnumbingly stupid and easy that a duffer can write software that is able to outperform you?

      To be blunt. You can go fuck yourself. Bots never get their math wrong. Bots never fat finger a key, or wind up typing in their commands into a chat window. Bots don't get so focused on healing that they forget to move out of the fire. Bots don't make the mistakes that even the *best* player makes from time to time. Why do you think they're forbidden by just about every online games' TOS?

      If anyone's inadequate, it sounds like you. But hey, that's just my take as someone who could write a script that is "smarter" than you within this game's parameters.

      Kindly get your e-dick out of my face. It's not nearly as impressive as you think it is.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    15. Re:Glider is fun by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

      To be blunt, you come off like someone who is proud of simple things like not shitting themselves. You also come off like someone who has completely missed the point. In your previous post you got all righteous about someone who wrote some bot scripts and SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED that they enjoyed the exercise of doing it well, and cited, as evidence, that people thought they did a great job/were thanking their bot.

      You spoke about that as if the person were actually "getting off" on the praise when it sounded to me like they were "getting off" on the geekery of figuring something out and executing it well.

      Anyway, keep on being proud of yourself for being able to do such complex tasks as simple math or clicking a button AND moving.

      Seriously, WoW is such an easy game that the *only* difficult parts of it come from the meta-gaming aspects, like writing bots for it or software that can interact with it. Cheating or no, being proud of being able to play WoW manually is at about the same level as being proud that you can short shiny pebbles by color. Hell, even checkers is a much more challenging game.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    16. Re:Glider is fun by ildon · · Score: 1

      In other words, you like writing clever AI, but you don't like playing WoW. That's fine, but you don't have to damage the game experience for others to have fun writing clever AI. As for topping the healing charts in battlegrounds, that's not exactly difficult as most players do not attempt to heal others or work as a team. And I have seen bots set up like that to try and heal in battlegrounds. They're very easy for an experienced player to notice, and someone who does realize it's a bot isn't going to bother sending tells to an empty chair; they're just going to open a GM ticket and report it.

    17. Re:Glider is fun by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      You spoke about that as if the person were actually "getting off" on the praise when it sounded to me like they were "getting off" on the geekery of figuring something out and executing it well.

      Honestly, I don't care if he "gets off" to underage donkeys. He's a cheater. And cheaters, I have absolutely zero respect or tolerance for. Nor do I tolerate those who make excuses for them. Cleverness be damned. I don't care if the game is WoW, Baseball, the Stock Market, or Tiddlywinks. Play fairly, or GTFO.

      Hell, even checkers is a much more challenging game.

      Link me to your WoW armory page that shows your Heroic "Kingslayer" and "Starcaller" achievements, then I'll defer to your expert opinion. You don't have those, do you? In that case, stop talking. You have no authority on the matter.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    18. Re:Glider is fun by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      I think it's a sad, sad commentary on our society when "fair play" is considered a "unique" concept.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    19. Re:Glider is fun by mcb · · Score: 1

      I think it's a sad, sad commentary on our society when people take videogames so seriously.

    20. Re:Glider is fun by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

      Holy shit, you really are just the perfect picture of that blobular creature from the South Park WoW episode, aren't you?

      I feel kind of greasy and cheeto stained just from this back and forth with you.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    21. Re:Glider is fun by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      I feel kind of greasy and cheeto stained just from this back and forth with you.

      Then take a shower... please.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    22. Re:Glider is fun by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      What do you think of people that cheat at poker? Or chess? Monopoly? No big deal, right? It's just a game, right?

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    23. Re:Glider is fun by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

      I'm amazed you even know what one of those is!

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    24. Re:Glider is fun by mcb · · Score: 1

      #1, those are zero sum games. It's completely different.

      #2, my bot did not give anyone an unfair edge. My bot was similar to an above average player. It had to follow the rules of the game just as everyone else did.

    25. Re:Glider is fun by mcb · · Score: 1

      You might think it's easy to detect but I never heard from any GMs (and they were pretty hardcore about cracking down on bots at this time).

      People did send tells early on when I was actively developing it and the code caused some weird behavior, like running in circles or against walls. They would usually ask if I was a bot looking to see if anyone would reply.

    26. Re:Glider is fun by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      #1 Bullshit! A cheater is a cheater is a cheater. I expect a fair game in a battleground the same way I expect a fair poker game. This is a lesson I learned when I was in Kindergarten. Perhaps you should review, as you see absolutely nothing at all ethically wrong with your reprehensible behavior. #2 Bullshit! One of the key "rules of the game" is that you control your own character. If bots didn't give an unfair advantage, why do you think they are banned? Their scripting and macro API specifically blocks out the scripting of button clicks. Why do you think this is? (I'm shocked, again, that I have to explain this). Because bots don't make the mistakes that human players do. The win-or-lose decisions the best healers make take concentration, focus, and very quick thinking. In the time a human healer has planned out his next two heals, a bot has already queued up his next 50. If you can't see how simple this concept is, I really don't think I have any more to discuss with you.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    27. Re:Glider is fun by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      Yes. I know all about showers. Ask your mama about the golden one I gave her last night. Get out of her basement more often and you might have some experiences, too!!

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
    28. Re:Glider is fun by mcb · · Score: 1

      If you can't beat a scripted bot in terrible gear than you are probably the worst wow player on the planet.

    29. Re:Glider is fun by bckrispi · · Score: 1

      Yes. I'm sure you dont' use *any* of the honor farmed with this bot to upgrade your gear.

      --
      Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
  41. 117 and how it relates to Glider by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

    IANAL, but this is how I understand it.

    What the EFF article seems to overlook is how 117 is worded and how Glider actually works.

    The relevant part of 117 states

    (a) Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy. -- Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:

    (1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or

    (2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.

    From my understanding, Glider makes an additional copy of World of Warcraft in memory. Said copy is not used "for archival purposes only" nor is the copy "an essential copy in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine." In order to legally make an additional copy without a license granting you permission to make it, it has to be one of these two. Glider's copy is neither.

    --
    GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
  42. Re:To stop botting and farming... make a better ga by Anomalyst · · Score: 1

    Peoples are lazy, that all.

    Hmmm, just cant seem to find the energy to rebut.

    --
    There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
  43. Frankly, I'm with Blizzard on this one by Benfea · · Score: 1

    Allowing people to have an advantage by using 'bots to play the game for them has long been a bane of MMORPGs. Yes, it is stupid that people run a program to play the game for them, but keep in mind that legitimate players have to compete with these 'bot players for resources (e.g. crafting materials), and they really shouldn't have to.

    1. Re:Frankly, I'm with Blizzard on this one by toriver · · Score: 1

      Also, after this autoleveling has finished, you will have an army of inexperienced players (I have run into a level 60 who asked what the "trade channel" was) who will wipe pick-up group after PUG until they have entered the ignore list of every guild in existence.

  44. Re:To stop botting and farming... make a better ga by geekoid · · Score: 1

    I think u=you mean:
    Press 'Uninstall' to win the game.'

    The only way to win is not to play.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  45. Define User Input by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All I can say is the user should have the right to define how input is entered ON their system, whether it be by hand or though a series of per-constructed actions, whether those action are used in a piece of software to make actions or commands easier or not is irrelevant, a company should not be able to define how you input into your system.

  46. simple fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have a new type of server : hackers servers.

    They kind of did this with diablo 2 with open battle net. Worked well for us too lazy to level / wanted to create our own gear / wanted to duel other lvl 99s that we just made

    Quite fun in fact.

  47. You are 100% wrong according to Glider's own FAQ. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ^^^^THIS IS 100% UNTRUE^^^^

    Glider was made for people to play with their own emulated servers at home not on the blizzard servers!!!!!

    If someone chooses to use glider on the blizzard servers blizzard has every right to remove their account. Glider is not arguing with that.

    Q: Can I run Glider on a private or emulated server?
    A: Running Glider on non-Blizzard servers is unsupported, as the client on such servers is generally confused, old, or both. We strongly recommend running Glider on official, paid servers. Come on, it's a great game, there's no reason to try to job Blizzard out of their monthly fee.

  48. save that for it's own court case! by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    save that for it's own court case!

  49. My bot is legal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My computer uses a modified version of Glider. Not only does it play wow, it actually went online, registered the account, purchased the subscription, downloaded and installed the software, clicked the 'I agree' button to the license agreement, etc. etc.
     
    This wow account is therefore the property of the bot, and the 'copying into memory' done by said bot falls within the license agreement.
     
    The only problem I have is that the damned bot "stole" my credit card to do so!

  50. Ooooo... by Petersko · · Score: 1

    "I HATE when [entity] wants me to pay for something I wont own."

    Like, perhaps, a girlfriend/wife does with a certain renewable resource?

    1. Re:Ooooo... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tampons?

  51. Re:To stop botting and farming... make a better ga by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Making a better game would only encourage the problem. I couldn't play World of Warcraft 24/7 because of things like having a job and sleep, but the bot could play when I'm not. Its an unfair advantage I'm gaining (regardless of how small) by having a bot play for me, and it degrades the experience of other players.

  52. Re:To stop botting and farming... make a better ga by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uh...No.

    I'm sorry, but you seem to be under the delusion that it's simply about "fun" but it's not. People are using a bot because they want to skip to the end. They don't want to stop and smell the roses.

    At all. Ever. No matter how much fun they might have had, they're still going to want to take the lazy, short-cut EZ mode way.

    This is not good for the game.

    Now I'm sure you can find things that could be improved about the game itself, but no matter how much you tinker with them, it won't stop some people from Botting.

    Because it's easier for them to cheat so that's what they are going to do.

    Besides, you can't make all things equally fun for all people. Some people will just not enjoy some things. But they want the other things that come with it...so they're going to either grin and bear it...or find some way to avoid the bother but still get the reward.

  53. Re:To stop botting and farming... make a better ga by _xeno_ · · Score: 1

    If sections of the game are not overly long, boring, and repetitive, there won't be a demand for services to skip that part of the game or play it for you.

    Bullshit. If that were at all true, people wouldn't bother cheating in first person shooters.

    The bottom line is that no matter what the game, as soon as it becomes multiplayer, there will be assholes who will do whatever it takes to be "better" than the rest. Even if the game is conceptually a "cooperative" game where there's absolutely nothing to "win." (Hell, it doesn't even have to be multiplayer - there are competitive assholes who will cheat to prove their superiority at single player games!)

    For some people, it may be about "skipping the boring parts," but for others, it's about being "better" than everyone else. And those people will use whatever advantage they can get. It's not about "fun" for them, it's about winning.

    --
    You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
  54. wait a minute by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    By extension, does this mean that walk-throughs also violate the license agreement?

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  55. Underlying Problem by mhajicek · · Score: 1

    I think EULAs are a major underlying problem here. In my view, in order for an agreement to be binding, it would need to be presented as part of the sales transaction. Imagine if you bought a new car, had it delivered, and then the first time you turned the key a screen with a EULA popped up claiming that in order to use the car you had to agree to drive in a certain way. I don't think that would fly very well. To me, clicking "agree" or "accept" on a EULA window is just one of the standard steps for installing software; I never read them and I don't consider clicking "accept" to be an act of accepting it. There is also the matter that there is no way to prove who clicked on the EULA, and we know that no one ever installs software for anyone else, right?

  56. Wasn't software ownership already decided? by Montezumaa · · Score: 1

    Was the idea that software is owner by the buyer not already decided in the Autodesk decision? Regardless, Blizzard does not have to provide access to their servers for those that violate the ToU/ToS/EULA. Bilzzard is wrong in that the customer does not own the software they are purchasing, but they might be sort of right in that we do not own their servers.

    The fact of the matter is that this bot make no difference to the game. No one gives a shit about leveling content; it is all about the "end game" content. Blizzard seems to understand this with the increase in speed of leveling(less experience to reach certain levels and in-game clothing that increases experience given for killing and questing). Even with all of this, at some point, leveling from level one will push possible customers away from this game.

    The closer the maximum level reaches 100, less new customers will start playing and more current customers will shy away from starting new customers and that will reduce some customers longevity. I am guessing Blizzard will do something to combat this, but it is time to stop it with the immediate account removal(well, immediate bannings) for people that use bots. Blizzard claims that will do anything "up to" permanent account suspension, but Blizzard always gives out their harshest punishment for actions like this by their customers.

    I would like to add that it is not the place of any company to punish their customers. If a customer breaks the law, then government is there to step in and provide corrective action. For the minors out there, parents are there, unless they commit a serious crime, then it is up to government. When a non-government entity provides corrective action, there is no oversight as there is with government. Gaming companies "punishing" customers is sort of a small issue, but where does it end?

    Do car companies get to come in and take away cars when customers are caught breaking speed limits? Do gun manufacturers get to take away guns from civilians and law enforcement when said guns are "misused" in their eyes? Will pharmaceutical companies take away medication if some patients take more pills than they were supposed to, even one time?

    Due to Blizzard's arrogance, in believing that they can dictate what software people can create and sell, I hope they lose big. Blizzard's attorneys have played "fast and loose" with the law and they need to pay.

    1. Re:Wasn't software ownership already decided? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was the idea that software is owner by the buyer not already decided in the Autodesk decision?

      No.

      Autodesk sold a program that was stand-alone. World of Warcraft is not stand alone. You stop paying that subscription...you don't get access to the game.

  57. Re:To stop botting and farming... make a better ga by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not convinced you've played the game; at least, not the most recent expansion. When did you give up? The "grind" has been significantly reduced to near-nothing. Hell, you don't even have to *travel* to a dungeon anymore. You're just ported there automatically.

    These are all Good Things. The game is more about playing your character and fighting than it is about stupid FedEx quests and going AFK because of a ten minute flight. In other words, very little of your "play time" is wasted. If you have put honest effort into playing the game over the past two months and you still think that the game is "broken", then I doubt that MMOs are the right kind of entertainment venue for you.

  58. Re:To stop botting and farming... make a better ga by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you even read what you're replying to? There's bullshit here, but it's your fucking post. We're not talking about cheaters here, we're talking about a game that's so fucking boring to play people would rather let the computer play parts of it required to get access to the fun bits.

    Sorry, but in no world is allowing a computer to play BY THE RULES OF THE GAME cheating.

  59. Pile of pig shit is what I see. by thodelu · · Score: 1

    I rented out my pig sty with the TOC that no one can take a dump in it. The guy who rented purchased pigs. The pig seller while inducing the buyer to get bacon was also inducing him to violate my TOC. Therefore, I want to sue the pig seller.

    1. Re:Pile of pig shit is what I see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's more like you rented out a pig sty for real pigs. Then somebody made a robot pig. None of the other pigs like robot pigs, it freaks them out having a robot in the midst.

      So you sue the robot pig maker to stop them from putting out these fake pigs that only go in your pig sty.

  60. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No matter how many times you twerps keep claiming that is what blizzard did - it isn't. If you haven't got a valid license you are not allowed to run the program, copying to ram and all that rubbish has nothing to do with it nor have they said so.

    Now grow the fuck up and stop posting things you don't understand.

  61. Re:To stop botting and farming... make a better ga by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's a tired old argument that doesn't hold up under scrutiny. "long, boring, and repetitive" is not the sole reason people cheat in games, and for the game in question it's not even a distant second. People cheat in games because they want to win, especially when there are *other* people playing in the same game world. We've already passed the tipping point where even though the game keeps getting easier, the same percentage of players keep cheating.

    Or, from another angle, a quick sanity check: you pay for a game, and then you pay a monthly fee for it too, yet you find the game "long, boring, and repetitive". Do you a) stop paying, or b) pay more money for ever more sophisticated ways for your computer to play the game for you while you continue to also pay the monthly fee for a game you don't like? You can figure out what the player *really* wants to do from the answer.

  62. eula by sixsixtysix · · Score: 1

    i'm surprised no company, especially one with a subscription service, has ever snuck a "you must never unsubscribe or uninstall our software or use a competitor's software" clause into their eulas. they'd get away with it too.

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  63. So if I use Glider, I can use WOW anyway I want? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

    you don't own the game, you only have a license to use it, and bots like Glider invalidate the license.

    Don't you mean violate the license? Typically violating a license's terms terminates your license, but if the license is invalidated, wouldn't that mean it is no longer binding?

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    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?