McDonald's, Cadmium, and Thermo Electron Niton Guns

An anonymous reader writes, snipping from a story at NPR: "'How did the Consumer Products Safety Commission find out that cadmium, a toxic metal, was present on millions of Shrek drinking glasses now being recalled by McDonald's? Well, an anonymous person with access to some pretty slick testing equipment tipped off Rep. Jackie Speier (D-CA) about the problem. Her office confirmed that somebody using a Thermo Electron Niton XRF testing gun found a lot of cadmium, sometimes used in yellow pigments, on the surface of the glasses. The source overnighted glasses to Speier's office last week, which then turned over the test results and specimens to the CPSC. ... By law, no more than 75 parts per million of cadmium is supposed to be present in paint on kids toys. Speier's office said the amount found on the glasses was quite a bit higher than that.' Seems like the answer to a previous question about at-home science — this blogger seems to have been one of the anonymous sources."

Comments

Yay science!

[Anonymous Coward]

Science, saving the world one experiment at a time.

Re:Yay science!

[icannotthinkofaname]

Yep, saving the world...until the LHC and pressurized oil destroy it.

Re:Yay science!

[chibiace]

As is to be expected from a type 13 planetoid.

The answer, for the source, is simple...

[Anonymous Coward]

people forget that a Thermo Electron Niton XRF testing gun now comes in every Happy Meal.

Re:The answer, for the source, is simple...

[JWSmythe]

I'm still waiting for them to include nuclear particle accelerators. Imagine what fun these would be at parties. :) They'd be so much more exciting that cadmium laced drinking glasses with silly cartoons painted on them.

Re:The answer, for the source, is simple...

[Dayofswords]

bada ba ba ba ba baaaa!
I'm zapping it!

Re:The answer, for the source, is simple...

[mooingyak]

people forget that a Thermo Electron Niton XRF testing gun now comes in every Happy Meal.

Which would really suck when my kids get annoyed that I want to play with their Happy Meal toy.

Re:The answer, for the source, is simple...

[lgw]

people forget that a Thermo Electron Niton XRF testing gun now comes in every Happy Meal.

Except in Santa Clara, of course, where Happy Meal toys were outlawed with no appreciation of their scientific usefulness!

Re:The answer, for the source, is simple...

[X0563511]

You've got an extra 'ba' :P

Re:The answer, for the source, is simple...

[Anonymous Coward]

WILD SLOGAN NAZI APPEARED

Re:The answer, for the source, is simple...

[X0563511]

That's not a slogan. That's a jingle.

Yea yea, say what you want. But I do audio stuff, so I'd know this kind of thing :P

Re:The answer, for the source, is simple...

[Anonymous Coward]

2 extra 'ba's

Re:The answer, for the source, is simple...

[JamesP]

Well no it doesn't.

This may allow kids to prove the earth is older than 5000 years so...

Re:The answer, for the source, is simple...

[flyneye]

In my previous job sorting metals I used a Niton to grade metals and see the breakdown of elements in it to the .000% . It would give you a damned great read in about 15 seconds. Our company had a variety of Nitons that cost them between $30000 and $80000 each with repair bills from $4000 to $8000 and a months downtime if they were dropped.

I'm betting

[Vinegar Joe]

The glasses were made in China.

Re:I'm betting

[SomeJoel]

The glasses were made in China.

I'd take that bet. Because they were made in New Jersey. (ARC International, based in Millville, N.J.)

Re:I'm betting

[Anonymous Coward]

It does seem like it apparently. But I wonder where the paint came from? Not that all problems with products are limited to China, certainly. But they do seem to produce quite a lot of shoddy, tainted things (paint on toys, toothpaste, etc., etc.).

Re:I'm betting

[MichaelSmith]

The glasses were made in China.

My wife works as an architect on small retail projects. One client of hers made a trip to China and bought a container load of material to fit out their project. So an electrician drills into a partition, hits asbestos and shuts the site down.

They lost a lot of money trying to save money on partitions. The funny thing is that the partition in question had stickers on it saying absolutely no asbestos. I guess there had to be a reason for that.

Re:I'm betting

[Anonymous Coward]

Company located there does not mean product made there. Have you not been paying attention for the last forty years?

Re:I'm betting

[MightyMartian]

It had to be China or New Jersey

Re:I'm betting

[Itninja]

Only the North American subsidiary is based in NJ. The company is based in France. From 2.5 seconds of fact-finding:

Arc International employs 12,200 people worldwide including 8000 in France. The group, whose head office is located in Arques, in the French Pas-de-Calais region...

But you are correct that the glasses were manufactured in NJ.

Re:I'm betting

[Vinegar Joe]

Do you have a link? ARC international is based in France.

"Arc International employs 12, 200 people worldwide including 8000 in France. The group, whose head office is located in Arques, in the French Pas-de-Calais region, achieved a turnover of 1 billion Euros in 2009. Armed with its know how in glassware, it developed globally and diversified its activities through the integration of materials other than glass.

Arc International is present in five continents with production sites (France, USA, China, UAE), distribution subsidiaries (France, US, Spain, Australia, Mexico, Brazil, Japan) and sales offices."

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/arc-international-reacts-to-the-recall-of-mcdonalds-products-95655644.html

Re:I'm betting

[JWSmythe]

Unless you work for the company and can confirm they didn't use their Chinese manufacturing plant, it's still up in the air.

    the press release

Arc International is present in five continents with production sites (France, USA, China, UAE), distribution subsidiaries (France, US, Spain, Australia, Mexico, Brazil, Japan) and sales offices.

    I'd suspect small production runs and urgent items are produced locally (or relatively locally). Large low cost runs with plenty of lead time, like McDonalds would want, would likely be produced in China.

Re:I'm betting

[JWSmythe]

    That was a good plan (business wise). Too bad they'll slap on labels that are absolute lies. It's a good reason to buy American. At least she could have sued the vendor.

    Was the label in English, or Engrish? :)

Re:I'm betting

[Michael Kristopeit]

The glasses were made in China.

I'd take that bet. Because they were made in New Jersey. (ARC International, based in Millville, N.J.)

ahhhhh... new jersey. the china of the west.

Re:I'm betting

[lgw]

Large low cost runs with plenty of lead time, like McDonalds would want, would likely be produced in China.

I misread that as "low cost runs with plenty of lead" - which would also likely be produced in China.

Re:I'm betting

[TubeSteak]

The glasses were made in China.

I'm betting you're wrong.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100604/ap_on_he_me/us_cadmium_shrek

All the recalled jewelry was made in China. The drinking glasses are the first American-made products to be recalled.

[U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission spokesman] Wolfson said the recalled glasses have "far less cadmium" than the recalled jewelry. He would not say how much cadmium leached from the glasses in tests, only that it was "slightly above the protective level currently being developed by the agency."

Arc is a French company with a plant in New Jersey ; its origins as a glassmaker date to 1825. The company said that it has been making glasses for McDonald's for 15 years and that levels of cadmium used in the enamel baked into the glass were within current federal safety guidelines.

Biagi, Arc's vice president of North American sales, said the company was surprised and confused when it got word of the recall Thursday night.

I'm not sure why the product is being recalled based on CPSC standards that don't actually exist yet.
I'm guessing it's because a Congresswoman got involved and everyone went into cover-your-ass mode.

Re:I'm betting

[JWSmythe]

    I wouldn't be surprised if there was lead(Pb) too. :)

Re:I'm betting

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe even some Ba4Co2N

Re:I'm betting

[Paracelcus]

Duh! Where the hell else is anything made?

This is why there are no jobs here.

Re:I'm betting

[MichaelSmith]

Ah well I am an Australian and my wife is Malaysian. Most of her customers are asian and believe in always getting the Best Deal (tm). My mother in law needed a tooth removed and would have paid 500 AUD for the job so she flew to Malaysia (which she was going to do anyway) and got it done for ten bucks (our money). She doesn't need all that modern sterilisation and anaesthetics. Those things were obviously invented to trick smart people like her out of their savings.

In Malaysia once I saw this nice watch in a street market. We drove the price down from 50RM to 10RM. Then the vendor took the case apart to install a battery. I realised later that he just put the 10RM movement in. We weren't really bargaining, just choosing.

I am sure the warning was in Engrish. The shipment should have been flagged in customs, but its not hard to get lucky there, especially if the paperwork from china looks okay.

Re:I'm betting

[JWSmythe]

    Do you want fries with that?

    Mmmmm.. Fill the glass with bacon, fries, and fried burger squeezings. You don't have to worry about the cadmium, that's a heart attack in a glass. Oh, who am I kidding, pretty much anything at McD shortens your lifespan by about a year per serving.

    Why is my chest feeling tight? And my right arm is starting to hurt. I must just be hungry, let me finish this ultramegasupersize Bigmac, and everything will be ok.

Re:I'm betting

[__aasqbs9791]

In some cases it isn't that way, though. My dad was working in Egypt for about 10 years and in at least some cases, he said the dentists there were at least equal to the best dentists he's ever had Stateside, but at a much lower price. I suppose you could take that to mean he's had terrible dentists over here, but in his experience they were often American trained and seemed to do a good job. Though there were some exceptions, the same as you'd have here (you find a good one, you keep going back, and if not you never go back again).

Re:I'm betting

[MichaelSmith]

The standard deviation in ability and price varies from place to place, in line with the amount and strength of regulation. There are very good private hospitals in Malaysia and they charge a lot of money, but less than you would pay elsewhere. There are also very cheap places which cut corners. They exist because they are not subject to the level of regulation you would see in some other countries.

I don't doubt your point about dentists in Egypt and I am not trying to rubbish medical care in the third world generally. My point is that some people will argue the prices down on things to a ridiculous degree and when that happens the supplier will be there to fill the market.

Re:I'm betting

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm betting you're wrong http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100604/ap_on_he_me/us_cadmium_shrek

The drinking glasses are the first American-made products to be recalled.

[U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission spokesman] Wolfson said the recalled glasses have "far less cadmium" than the recalled jewelry. He would not say how much cadmium leached from the glasses in tests, only that it was "slightly above the protective level currently being developed by the agency."

Arc is a French company with a plant in New Jersey ; its origins as a glassmaker date to 1825. The company said that it has been making glasses for McDonald's for 15 years and that levels of cadmium used in the enamel baked into the glass were within current federal safety guidelines.

Biagi, Arc's vice president of North American sales, said the company was surprised and confused when it got word of the recall Thursday night.

"Our feeling is these glasses are safe," Biagi said.

None of which explains why there's a recall for standards that don't actually exist yet. I'm guessing everyone went into cover-your-ass mode when they heard a Congresswoman involved.

One post at 7:44pm and another identical post at 7:49pm. Can you wait another five minutes and post that a third time please? I'm not so sure I got it after the second time. If that's not convenient, ten or fifteen minute increments would also be acceptable.

Re:I'm betting

[Mr. Freeman]

Yeah, but most of the time it's "company in has problems because did some illegal shit". I don't think that many companies based out of china turn their manufacturing over to the US or other countries, is usually the other way around.

Re:I'm betting

[Anonymous Coward]

If they were made in China, the headline would read "Chinese poisons America!"

Re:I'm betting

[MaskedSlacker]

Was there a point to your post? I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with your parent--if the latter you're a moron, because your post makes no sense, and if the former, why post at all?

Re:I'm betting

[shutdown -p now]

But you are correct that the glasses were manufactured in NJ.

Just goes to show that the wonders of unregulated cutthroat profit-chasing capitalism are the same, whether in China or in US. It's just that it's easier to buy oneself out of regulation in China due to higher corruption. But there's no lack of desire to do the same on part of US companies...

Re:I'm betting

[shutdown -p now]

They're recalling them in Canada, too, even though a rushed testing showed that everything is in compliance with local laws (so now there is fuss about updating the standards). Apparently, it was the decision of McDonalds itself, to deal with bad publicity surrounding this.

Re:I'm betting

[X0563511]

We don't know where all the components come from though. Perhaps the sand/whatever itself was contaminated, or one of the other additives. Or someone was just a dumbass and put cadmium in it for some reason.

How far down the rabbit hole do you go though? That's the harder question to answer.

T1 supplier: it's raw material, use it for whatever.
T2 supplier: it's been processed somewhat. don't use it for foodstuffs etc.
T3 supplier: here's this stuff we found cheap.
T4 supplier: here's this stuff mixed with other stuff we found sorta cheap.
T5 supplier: here's this glass-making stuff.
Cup-maker: wtf, cadmium?
-or-
Cup-maker: herp-derp lets toss some cadmium in there

Sure. the blame may be at the end of the chain, but it might not either. It could be anywhere along the line. Somewhere, someone made a mistake... but was it an honest one?

Re:I'm betting

[blackraven14250]

They may still have gotten the enamel made in China, then assembled into the final glasses in Jersey, given that the company has a Chinese plant.

Re:I'm betting

[Low Ranked Craig]

FYI, heat attacks generally cause left arm pain, not right arm pain...

Re:I'm betting

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, citing Egypt is just plain cheating. They've been doing dentistry since the Pahraoh's days - including drilling and filling. Amalgm wasn't unknown. And other solutions traditionally "modern", or otherwise. And then, there's all the rest, of course.

Re:I'm betting

[sxedog]

Couldn't be China, This wasn't LEAD or melamine they found... :)

Re:I'm betting

[RudeIota]

Because they were made in New Jersey

Well, that explains it.

Re:I'm betting

[troll8901]

You know, I actually searched Wolfram Alpha, trying to get the name of this compound.

No wonder I feel so windy today!

Re:I'm betting

[troll8901]

... so she flew to Malaysia (which she was going to do anyway) and got it done for ten bucks (our money)... Those things were obviously invented to trick smart people like her out of their savings.

Trick smart people? Huh?

According to this journal entry written in 2007, the Malaysian government subsidised 98% of healthcare bills. It costed US$0.30 for an entire outpatient visit in a government clinic. I presume similar rates applied to dental treatment as well.

Re:I'm betting

[hairyfeet]

Oh please! It was trying to kiss the ass of the "make everything healthy!" nuts that ruined McDonald's in the first place! I'm sure many of the old timers remember when their fries were actually awesome, instead of tasting like heated cardboard. That was because they used to be dipped in sugar and fried in beef lard, not anymore! It's too unhealthy! so instead we get burgers that taste like bricks, and fries that taste like cardboard. Yum Yum!

It is FAST FOOD, it is SUPPOSED to be bad for you, okay? Want healthy go home and make a fricking salad. I swear if I ever win the lotto I'm gonna open a chain of restaurants called "McFatty's" with a slogan like "McFatty's, tell the health food nuts to kiss your ass!" and I bet it'll be a hit! It'll have nothing but big fat burgers, fried buns of course, and fries dipped in sugar and cooked in 100% beef lard! Hell I'll fry every damned thing on the menu, won't nothing be less than 1000 calories, I'll have them lined around the block! And I'll even have a smoking section just so I can piss off the anti-smokers as well!

Re:I'm betting

[klui]

OK. Er, I bet the paint were from China.

Re:I'm betting

[Anonymous Coward]

The funny thing is that the partition in question had stickers on it saying absolutely no asbestos. I guess there had to be a reason for that.

The reason is called PROFIT.

Re:I'm betting

[Sulphur]

Its fifteen cent hamburger attention deficit syndrome.

Re:I'm betting

[TheLink]

In Malaysia you do get that sterilisation and anaesthetics stuff. It really is cheaper, and at the low and mid-end I bet it's the same. Maybe the high-end stuff in Australia is better. But for the usual stuff, I doubt it.

I have a dentist friend who moved from Malaysia to Australia, so I guess she gets to charge AUD prices now :). She certainly did have sterilisers for "everything".

As for the watch, did you actually see him put the cheap stuff in? I'd have thought they have the cheap movement in most of the cheaper watches anyway - they just change the outside. It's a similar thing for many genuine Swiss watches anyway - they have the same Swiss movement, they just have different cases and different brands on the outside. ETA makes a lot of movements, and used to be some of their movements ended up in fakes in Malaysian street markets too :).

Re:I'm betting

[Anonymous Coward]

...
T5 supplier: here's this glass-making stuff.
Cup-maker: wtf, cadmium?
Cup-maker: lets use it to make cups anyway.

Re:I'm betting

[RandomFactor]

I'd eat there (if you could reduce the calorie and saturated fat content at least)

And could we have the smoking section outside so we don't have to smell it?

Re:I'm betting

[JamesP]

Hum... toxic materials in products made in New Jersey, hum....

that explains A LOT

Re:I'm betting

[LaughingCoder]

While is truth to your statement that unfettered capitalism can result in problems, it is certainly clear that government oversight is not the solution. From my perspective, government regulation does not guarantee anything other than a lack of innovation, an increase in price, shortages, and lots of do-nothing patronage "jobs" for the well-connected. See MMS, SEC, US Post Office, etc.

I work in a highly regulated industry (medical devices) and I can tell you based on multiple decades of experience that the effect of that regulation is largely detrimental. I have seen many products which could have been extremely beneficial be delayed or de-featured due to regulatory silliness. Further, the cost of our products are dramatically increased due to the need to provide adequate "documentation" (I am convinced they weigh it to decide when you have done enough). We are forced to maintain a regulatory department that is as big as our R&D department. Everything we do has regulatory implications. When an engineer comes up with a bright idea, the first question asked is "how long will it take and how much will it cost to get it through the FDA?" Often the answers to those questions kill the project.

BTW, did it escape your notice that this particular problem was caught by a concerned citizen, not our benevolent, nanny-state government? They were probably too busy surfing the web watching porn I suppose.

I should hasten to add, however, that government isn't always completely incompetent. I have had personal experience with one extremely efficient government agency. They are always on top of things, have the latest in equipment, and don't miss a beat. This of course would be the IRS. Based on your signature this no doubt pleases you.

Re:I'm betting

[Anachragnome]

"But I wonder where the paint came from?"

It doesn't fucking matter.

If you're standing there, in the glass factory, and you've made 12 million glasses that need painted, do you even stop ask yourself if maybe the paint that you have, the stuff that was supposed to be shipped to the Dept. of Transportation for road-line painting, might not be a good choice for DRINKING glasses?

The fools that were charged with painting the glasses, regardless of where the glasses came from, were supposed to do so with drinking-glass COMPATIBLE paint. The law is quite clear on this subject, and for good reason. Its not too hard to figure out, man. Toxic Paint + Food-related product = BAD

What I would bet on is that this is simply another case of someone cutting corners/costs to pad their profits, at the expense of consumer safety.

Re:I'm betting

[Anonymous Coward]

When's the grand opening and how long till a franchise is available.

Re:I'm betting

[Anonymous Coward]

Somewhere, someone made a mistake... but was it an honest one?

Because honest mistakes don't harm people.

Re:I'm betting

[rubypossum]

You sir are my hero.

Re:I'm betting

[FiloEleven]

Except that this shit IS regulated. Remember the hullabaloo over the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act that was passed a while back after Mattel's screw-up with lead paint? Remember how all the free market advocates said that the law would adversely affect everything from small-time toymakers (who would be forced to pay for testing they couldn't afford on products that never come into contact with dangerous chemicals) to libraries (who, without an exemption that may or may not have gone through, would be forced to test all children's books on their shelves to be compliant) while not reliably preventing bad stuff from happening?

Now look what happened. The law has been enacted, yet it was a private citizen who alerted the regulators to the problem. So what good did the CPISA do in this case? If everyone had relied on that regulation for their safety, this never would have been caught. Some regulation may be necessary and beneficial, but when it kills off the little guys while the big fish somehow circumvent it, it becomes not a good for the people but another tool of the megacorps that actually need to be controlled. Bad regulation is worse than no regulation.

Re:I'm betting

[wirehead_rick]

"I swear if I ever win the lotto I'm gonna open a chain of restaurants"

like this?: http://www.heartattackgrill.com/

Re:I'm betting

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see the connection between the words "Fast Food" and "Bad For You". If McDonald's themselves marketed their products as "Unhealthy Snacks", I doubt there would be anything like as much opposition.

Re:I'm betting

[hairyfeet]

Nope, ain't down home enough for McFatty's. We'd have big old fat chicken fried steak burgers, them big old home made hamburgers where the juice drips down your chin when you bite that sucker, fries as big as your thumb (deep fried with sugar and lard of course), your choice of big old sesame seed bun, texas toast, or my favorite cornbread bun, real shakes you need a spoon to eat, and GOOD coffee, not that mud tasting swill or those foofy latte crap!

At McFatty's it'd be like going to your southern aunt's to eat. cute little waitresses that are always friendly and call you sugar or sweetie, big comfy seats, and good old stick to your ribs food that'll fill a man up and make him feel good. You want health food? Go kick that little Jared's ass and steal his sandwich, if you call that cardboard crap edible. You want something that'll put a smile on your face just thinking about it? come to McFatty's!

Re:I'm betting

[lgw]

I was going to use the "59 diner" chain in Houston as an example of this - their motto used to be "eat heavy!" But their website now emphasizes the ways in which their food is healty - damn all health Nazis!

Re:I'm betting

[vegiVamp]

Regardless of who put the cadmium in, however, if you're gonna manufacture food containers, you'd better be making sure you don't poison your customers.

In most industries, it's standard procedure to test the quality of whatever your suppliers offer.

Re:I'm betting

[BlackBloq]

I hope you make your restaurant. I'll come laugh at your over sized grave in 3 years. Enjoy being a fat piece of crap who wouldn't know food if you sat on it.

Re:I'm betting

[X0563511]

Oh yea, of course. But I (personally, this /is/ opinion) think that failing to test for something is a much lesser offense than knowingly using bad materials because of cost.

They are still "guilty" - perhaps of negligence, but it's not (an assumption) like they knowingly poisoned people.

It's all a matter of degree. It happened, but who's at fault for what and how much is still in the air.

Re:I'm betting

[argorg]

And the NJ plant probably didn't mix the paint/stabilizers/decals. And there was no residues dumped somewhere. And the raw materials, grinding, solvents-mixing, bottling and shipping all were carefully done too. And the paint brushes were cleaned in a full recovery of toxins system. All is well, everywhere. Please don't waste these expensive testers pointing downstream, at any lots of affiliates, or within 2.3 km near the Atlantic.

Re:I'm betting

[stuffeh]

Someone's beat you to this idea... Fatburger. http://www.fatburger.com/home/Default.aspx Too bad you can't smoke inside in California, but some places have a patio and may be able to smoke there.

Re:I'm betting

[rdnetto]

It costed US$0.30

I'm not normally a grammar nazi, but you really do have to draw the line somewhere. 'Cost' is already in the past tense.

Re:I'm betting

[JWSmythe]

You know, I wasn't sure so I did a little looking before posting it. I just posted it as a joke, but I like to make my jokes at least somewhat accurate. The American Heart Association symptoms page says:

* Chest discomfort. Most heart attacks involve discomfort in the center of the chest that lasts more than a few minutes, or that goes away and comes back. It can feel like uncomfortable pressure, squeezing, fullness or pain.

* Discomfort in other areas of the upper body. Symptoms can include pain or discomfort in one or both arms, the back, neck, jaw or stomach.

* Shortness of breath with or without chest discomfort.

* Other signs may include breaking out in a cold sweat, nausea or lightheadedness

    So, if you feel pain in the right arm and not the left, don't discount the possibility of a heart attack. Be educated, and request help as necessary. I am not a doctor, but I do take the advice of experts as useful.

Re:I'm betting

[JWSmythe]

    I went to my doctor about a week ago. I was joking that I'm getting fat (I'm 5'8", 155, and fairly muscular, just like I have been for years). He pointed out that they had a new scale. The old one only went to 400 pounds. I asked if he was joking, and he said "no". He recently had to send a patient off to a large animal clinic for an MRI, because the patient wouldn't fit in any of the human sized ones. I'd always thought stories like that were just urban legends, but this was his first-hand account of it happening.

    It makes me sad that people are doing this to themselves. Just because cheap high calorie foods are available doesn't mean you have to eat so much that you grow to unnatural proportions.

Anonymous?

[Itninja]

Write Jen a letter asking who the other tipster was.... Jennifer Taggart
2317 Warmouth St.
San Pedro, California 90732
United States

Re:Anonymous?

[MichaelSmith]

My guess is that the glasses and the tip come from the same source. Best for all of us if that person remains anonymous.

Re:Anonymous?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Write Jen a letter asking who the other tipster was.... Jennifer Taggart

Why? Clearly the tipster wants to be anonymous.

Re:Anonymous?

[icebike]

Why?

Is McDonalds going to hire a hit man?

Why would the tipster contact an elected official rather than the CPSC directly? After all, they have a web page just for this process: http://www.cpsc.gov/talk.html

Was there some political motivation in going thru an elected official? Is this an insider?, a Competitor? Does it matter?

Re:Anonymous?

[MichaelSmith]

Is McDonalds going to hire a hit man?

No, but the tipster wants to say employed. They no doubt have a family to feed.

Re:Anonymous?

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone wants to be me.

Delicious, nutritious,

[Anonymous Coward]

heavy metals.

Home Science?

[ReneeJade]

Doesn't it seem more likely that the original discoverer worked in a different professional lab, rather than having that sort of equipment at home?

Re:Home Science?

[AHuxley]

Whats a few thousand $ to a middle class US family?
Blogs and news reports have talked of this device and anyone can learn to use it.
From hand held testing in a scrap yards to suburbia - equipment is now much cheaper.
The gov is not testing, the companies dance around 'limits' and law makers set few binding targets.

Re:Home Science?

[Anonymous Coward]

end of discussion. hit it on the head

Re:Home Science?

[luckytroll]

I have access to one of these via my wife, who is using one to do research on soil metals for her Phd. I have to ask nicely to get access, because it has a radioactive source of ionizing radiation in it, but I could get it if I was really curious. The things are so handy, theyre more prevalent than you might think.

Re:Home Science?

[Anonymous Coward]

What a coincidence, I have access to your wive via one of these.

Home Labs?

[MagusSlurpy]

This isn't an argument supporting the validity of "home labs." Those handheld XRFs are about $30K. I'd love to have one in MY home lab, where the most expensive equipment is a $300 distillation kit that I had to save for six months to justify.

Re:Home Labs?

[gillbates]

Well!

Some geeks' home labs are more equal than others. Now, back to winding the coils for my particle accelerator... (Did you know you can get 440 wired residential without a permit?)

Re:Home Labs?

[Anonymous Coward]

> (Did you know you can get 440 wired residential without a permit?)

No shit? Just like that, from the pole?

Re:Home Labs?

[functor0]

Well, the "Smart Mama" (Jennifer Taggert) is someone that actually makes money through her XRF gun. According to the site below, she charges $5 per test or $100 per hour.

http://www.thesmartmama.com/xrf-testing/

Here's a media article where two families paid her to test their toys:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/25/AR2009122501674.html

Re:Home Labs?

[Anonymous Coward]

(Did you know you can get 440 wired residential without a permit?)

Yeah, but you need to use an insulated ladder and cable splicer if you don't want to end up on YouTube.

Re:Home Labs?

[causality]

(Did you know you can get 440 wired residential without a permit?)

Yeah, but you need to use an insulated ladder and cable splicer if you don't want to end up on YouTube.

That'd be a lot more likely to end up on Darwin Awards.

Re:Home Labs?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, not your mad scientist lab....

There are a surprising number of small XRF analyzers in home use and the number has grown remarkably during the last two years. You see, XRF provides a quick way to assay precious metals like gold.
It is not foolproof and it can be defeated, but it is very reliable and accurate in experienced hands.

Yes new ones are a bit expensive, but so is gold.

Re:Home Labs?

[timmarhy]

what makes XRF sexy is that you can test the samples over and over unlikely methods which destroy the sample to test it.

Re:Home Labs?

[ukemike]

It's more complicated than that. There are two types of Niton XRFs. The most common type which has been around for a while use a radioactive source (ironically Cd109). The the sources have a fairly short half life so must be replaced every other year or so, and cost thousands of dollars. These sources are VERY strictly regulated requiring licensing at the state level and access to inspectors. There are storage and transport requirements, etc. Most likely the person is an environmental consultant (like me) and has access to one at work, or is a geologist and has access to one at work. It is unlikely that any individuals own one of these.

The other newer type of XRF uses some sort of x-ray tube to generate the radiation and does not have all the licensing requirements but costs even more $$.

Re:Home Labs?

[gillbates]

No, I had to ask my neighbor, whose former roommate's sister's last boyfriend knew a guy at the power company who could get him a manual on how do it by wiring your own transformer using 13 feet of copper pipe, a few steel rods, some scavenged copper wire, and duct tape.

Re:Home Labs?

[Anonymous Coward]

(Did you know you can get 440 wired residential without a permit?)

Meh. Moderately high voltage single phase AC doesn't have as many practical uses as three phase. (powerful efficient motors run on three phase)

Re:Home Labs?

[NotQuiteReal]

Did you know you can get 440...

No, but you can get 220 from two different outlets, if they are on different circuits and you have 3 phase wiring to your building. You need to make a really nasty "Y" shaped extension cord thingy and plug two ends of the Y into different sockets... probably not OSHA approved.

But, what the hell, you wouldn't make such a thing if you didn't want a 220 outlet in a building only wired for 110, right? :-)

Re:Home Labs?

[mirix]

It's still single phase, just the transformer supplying the house has a centre tapped winding. "split-phase".

Re:Home Labs?

[NotQuiteReal]

I am sure you are right. I stand corrected and will stick to software... all I know is my 240V twist lock plug can power the server rack. (Don't worry I am nowhere near overloading it, and my smoke detectors will work just fine for the week it needs to be here.)

Re:Home Labs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm thats actually called a Still.. and we know why you bought it..

Re:Home Labs?

[luckytroll]

I got to play with the first kind. The serial port for uploading the data is a bitch sometimes, as is the software which I think isnt meant to run on Vista. On the other hand, the results for Lead and Manganese are suprisingly accurate compared to ICP, from what I understand from my scientist wife. (I only do the interfacing, she does the science).

Makes me want to borrow it and go on a sampling rampage of everyday imported goods with paint on them.

Re:Home Labs?

[MagusSlurpy]

Because I wanted to make a hundred milliliters of hooch at a time, right?

Re:Home Labs?

[socsoc]

I believe you only really needed the duct tape.

Re:Home Labs?

[kaini]

Hi, David!

Re:Home Labs?

[aix tom]

It seems you can also rent them, though. If the price/rental fee ratio is somewhat like it is with cars I might actually be tempted to rent one for a day.

Re:Home Labs?

[MagusSlurpy]

Pricing for that particular model actually is similar to car rentals, but is only done by the whole month, and it's about $700 (at least from Thermo).

How did the US government miss this?

[mc6809e]

A two trillion dollar budget, and still they miss this.

It used to be that public safety was the number one purpose and concern of the government. I guess poisoning children is less important now than making sure those with political power get bailed out. Children don't vote, after all. Well, except maybe in Chicago.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[SomeJoel]

A two trillion dollar budget, and still they miss this.

It used to be that public safety was the number one purpose and concern of the government. I guess poisoning children is less important now than making sure those with political power get bailed out. Children don't vote, after all. Well, except maybe in Chicago.

They probably missed it because it isn't above any established standard. The glasses were voluntarily recalled because a tougher standard may be pending. CNN has a poorly edited story about it.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[hondo77]

You're right. We should expect the government to test every product made for children for sale in this country...for all known toxins...before they go on sale. Of course if it did then you'd complain about the Obama nanny state stealing your money with excessive income tax.

What color is the sky in your world?

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Qzukk]

The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC or Commission) requests $107,000,000
for fiscal year 2010

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/reports/2010plan.pdf

and still they miss this

Maybe if they really DID have a two trillion dollar budget, they could afford to test every single object ever sold anywhere in the US.

Until then, buy yourself a $30k x-ray gun and trust nobody.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like you want a RoHS law like Europe? That's pretty much the only way to be sure.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right. We should expect the government to test every product made for children for sale in this country...for all known toxins...before they go on sale. Of course if it did then you'd complain about the Obama nanny state stealing your money with excessive income tax.

You'd actually probably have to test every single toy, not just each product. Manufacturers are notorious for cherry picking which samples get sent for testing and reviewing.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would suspect years of defunding regulators and appointing industry allies in key enforcement positions.

It's SOP for the GOP. Cases in point:
MMS and Deepwater Horizon. ("The reports portray a dysfunctional organization that has been riddled with conflicts of interest, unprofessional behavior and a free-for-all atmosphere for much of the Bush administration’s watch.")

Tax enforcement ("over the past dozen years, staff at the Internal Revenue Service has shrunk by about 20 percent. That affects the agency's ability to catch people who cheat on their taxes. One estimate of the annual loss in tax revenue is $300 billion.") And before anyone apologist says, "BV-b-but C-C-Clinton!", tell me who ran the House and Senate? That's right, the GOP.

As I've already pointed out, when you vote anti-government, you get sabotaged government. So let me take a page out of the right's rhetorical playbook and ask them, "Why do you hate America?"

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[RavenousBlack]

Really, the government should require the companies to test these things instead of having the government completely involved in babying every toy company. Then when they slip up make them pay dearly. Making sure everything that reaches us is safe shouldn't be the direct responsibility of the government, rather making sure it's the companies that deliver these products to us responsibility.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[tthomas48]

Congratulations! You hit every tired political meme across the entire political spectrum. Brilliant!

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[interkin3tic]

What color is the sky in your world?

Red white or blue depending on what the chemical manufacturing plant next to my house is making.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[causality]

Tax enforcement [npr.org] ("over the past dozen years, staff at the Internal Revenue Service has shrunk by about 20 percent. That affects the agency's ability to catch people who cheat on their taxes. One estimate of the annual loss in tax revenue is $300 billion.") And before anyone apologist says, "BV-b-but C-C-Clinton!", tell me who ran the House and Senate? That's right, the GOP. [newsweek.com]

It's rather pointless to talk about the IRS and progressive income taxes. Those are hardly sufficient to fund the federal budget and are there mostly for show, to divert attention. It's like that saying about how the President exists not to wield power, but to distract attention away from it.

The biggest tax we all pay is inflation. Instead of taking your money, they take its value. It's the most regressive tax of all, helping to devalue the savings and investments on which upward social mobility depends. How does a poor person become middle-class, or a middle-class person become rich, if they are greatly hindered from working to build wealth over time? Incidentally, the whole mortgage crisis was all about real wealth like real estate and other holdings being transferred to the same banks that participate in that Federal Reserve system because the people could not repay the fiat money the bank created on the spot, out of thin air, in order to become the lienholder. "Fractional Reserve Banking" makes for a great research topic and the Federal Reserve itself has historically been amazingly frank about its activities if you care to investigate how this works.

As I've already pointed out [slashdot.org], when you vote anti-government, you get sabotaged government.

There are not two parties. There is ONE party, the Big Government Party, with separate branches each trying to exert ever-increasing control over your life.
-- Judge Napolitano, freedomwatch.com

Which candidate from a faction (Democrats or Republicans) of that one party, or if you find that too radical, from the reigning duopoly, would really wish to decrease the power and influence that comes from holding public office? So long as we have career politicians who must have the blessing of the major parties to stand a chance of federal election, what we get is a self-reinforcing system of the fox guarding the henhouse.

So let me take a page out of the right's rhetorical playbook and ask them, "Why do you hate America?"

Because for running America into the ground, they are rewarded with prestige and respect and wealth and power and a media presence that makes them almost larger-than-life. What more could a fevered ego desire? Failing to speak against them, voting for them, looking up to them, taking their lying words and commercials and campaigns at face value, or believing that anyone from parties that are manifestly statist/pro-government (however you wish to say it) really want to reduce the government from which they derive their livelihood serves one purpose: it reinforces them, legitimizes them, supports them, and tells them that they're alright and must be doing a great job since we have such a high incumbency rate. Of course if we had any real variety of political philosophies which all stood a viable chance at winning elections, that incumbency rate would not be the case.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[KahabutDieDrake]

So what do we do instead? What are the systems in place to prevent... oh none. OK. So surely there is a system in place to punish... oh, no? OK, so we leave it to the courts? OH, the CEO and officers in the company can't be held liable in any way what so ever? So then what stops them from using a profit motive to justify poisoning people? Nothing. Well alright then, lets go ahead and just move along, nothing to see here.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right. We should expect the government to test every product made for children for sale in this country...for all known toxins...before they go on sale. Of course if it did then you'd complain about the Obama nanny state stealing your money with excessive income tax.

You'd actually probably have to test every single toy, not just each product. Manufacturers are notorious for cherry picking which samples get sent for testing and reviewing.

That's why you test random samples from shipped product before you clear the product for entry and distribution.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Frequency Domain]

So what do we do instead?

We have laws that specify tolerance levels, sample occasionally, and slap them silly if they get caught - hopefully hard enough that the overwhelming majority will feel it's not worth the risk.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

They scan every passenger before they board the plane... That wouldn't be much of a stretch..

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Qzukk]

Good, so now you realize you aren't actually contradicting the GP

No shit!

and certainly aren't pointing out anything useful

You invalidated your own statement and didn't even know it. You used the numbers I cited from the budget in your attempt to flame me, therefore my post with the CPSC budget was useful, at least to trolls like you. Maybe if the GP had actually posted the CPSC budget numbers, my post would have been redundant.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[shutdown -p now]

You're right. We should expect the government to test every product made for children for sale in this country.

Yes, absolutely, and I say this as a leftie who considers Obama to be a populist corporate shill. The whole point of giving the government enough powers to run a social welfare state is so that it deals with problems like this.

for all known toxins.

We're not talking about some rare and exotic poison here, but rather some very basic stuff. It's not the first time it happens, either.

So, yeah, someone in the govt clearly didn't do their job while happily wasting taxpayers' money, and should be called out for that.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

"slap them silly", by which you mean, take a small cut of the profit.

CAPTCHA is: customs

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

you said "maybe if they [CPSC] really did have a two trillion dollar budget", as though a claim were made that they had this, necessitating your explanation that they don't really have such a large budget. no such claim was made that they had this. all you did was perform a 2 second google search to get an actual number that in no way changes the principle that was being expounded. you say i wanted to flame you like you're really that noteworthy or important. no, you were just that useless and redundant. harder to admit i realize, but true all the same. you can stop trying to play it off now, it isn't fooling anyone. thank you for playing.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

People who don't have liquid assets* aren't affected by inflation, and people who owe money are actually better off after inflation. Why do we keep hearing that inflation is bad? because it will reduce the wealth if rich people.

* Liquid assets are money or things that can easily be converted into money. For example, your trust fund is a liquid asset, and inflation will make it so you may have to take a part-time job to supplement your income. However, your house, car, computer and air conditioner are not liquid assets. Their prices will increase with inflation, except for your computer, which has no resale value ;]

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

That sounds like quite a patriotic factory. Are they making American flags?

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Qzukk]

you said "maybe if they [CPSC] really did have a two trillion dollar budget"

If ... then ... is basic logic. Quoting the "if" part and claiming it means something other than what is implied by the "then" part is not how it works.

in no way changes the principle that was being expounded.

When did I claim it did? The only claims I made were:

1) IF the CPSC really had a two trillion dollar budget THEN they could afford to test every single object ever sold anywhere in the US.

Since (as you pointed out using my so-called "useless" number) they don't, they are incapable of testing everything. This is a simple observation that does not attempt to refute whatever statements the original poster made.

2) You have to be responsible for your own security.

For instance, you could buy your own testing equipment, just like the blogger in the article. Or read the blogs of bloggers who buy their own testing equipment and blog about their discoveries. This too is a simple observation that does not attempt to refute whatever statements the original poster made.

Perhaps the fact that I didn't disagree with the original poster has confused you.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Z34107]

People who don't have liquid assets* aren't affected by inflation

"Those people" constitute an empty set. You are vulnerable to inflation if you have any of the following "liquid" assets:

• Cash in your wallet.
• A checking or savings account.
• A retirement fund.
• An employer with any of the above or a payroll.

"The rich" don't care as much about inflation because they can move their investments to a more stable currency. This "capital flight" devastated Latin America when much of the country's wealth left its financial system overnight.

The poor and middle classes, however, are devastated. We generally have:

1. Wages and salary paid in cash or check.
2. Savings and checking accounts, also denominated in local currency.

All of those are wiped out by inflation.

Inflation also affects interest rates. A bank might lend $1000 today for $2000 a year from now, but the bank can lose money if inflation makes $2000 of next year's dollars worth less than $1000 of this year's dollars. Movements in interest rates directly affect "the rich" but also make it harder for everyone else to get loans, interest on a savings account, and the like. It slows job growth as financing to expand becomes more costly.

In short, inflation sucks. For everyone, but especially the poor and middle classes. That's why every country's central bank works to keep inflation reasonable.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

You do know the "no lead in children's toys law" managed to make dirtbikes and ATV's for children (under 12) illegal because the batteries and bearings have lead in them.

Making everything perfectly safe is not compatible with reality.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[cusco]

require the companies to test these things instead of having the government completely involved

Yes, because self-regulation works just ever-so-well. When Shrub changed the rules in Texas so that the companies voluntarily self-reported chemical spills the number of spills dropped by over 60 percent. He cited that as one of his great environmental success stories during the 2000 campaign.

when they slip up make them pay dearly.

Thirty years ago that idea might have worked, but with today's executive mobility the boss who orders tests falsified will be working for another company long before any fines are levied.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Sevorus]

The logic of your reply can only mean it will never happen that way. That's not how government works anymore. New laws are hastily passed in response to outrage - whether from the left, the right, the top, the bottom; whatever the group can agree on being angry about at the moment and politicians can look good getting behind. But wouldn't it be nice...

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[timmarhy]

maccers recalled it all on it's own when informed of the problem.

I think your just being a drama queen.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[honkycat]

Do you have any idea how many products are sold in the US? Here's a hint: so many that there's no chance in hell of the government testing every single one. Problems like this are actually extremely rare, it'd be an enormous waste of resources if you even wanted to pretend it was feasible. Furthermore, more than likely no one was even harmed in THIS case. It's still obviously a failure on McD's part, and reasonable efforts to prevent this from happening again, but it's just not possible to prevent "bad things" from ever happening.

So if you want to accuse people of wasting taxpayers' money, I think you should think critically about the kind of money you're suggesting they spend.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[shutdown -p now]

Do you have any idea how many products are sold in the US? Here's a hint: so many that there's no chance in hell of the government testing every single one.

You don't need to test every single thing ever sold. But food utensils? Come on, that's basic common sense that this kind of stuff comes right after food and drugs. Or what, would you prefer lead spoons next?

Oh, and the argument that "too many are sold" is fallacious in the first place. You simply don't allow to sell this kind of stuff without certification; if this means less variety because certification queue is full, it's not a big deal.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like you want a RoHS law like Europe? That's pretty much the only way to be sure.

I thought you had to nuke the site from orbit for that.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[RandomFactor]

CyanobacGovernment isn't there to do its 'job'. It is there to grow and consume resources put out by its food source (us).

Teaching the food source that government is the answer to every problem is simply a survival mechanism.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. You want to slap them silly, take a page from Europe's book and fine them in the billions. That hurts. A few 100K? Pittance. Actually even billions aren't enough - all the company's profits for the entire year should be nullified. Don't put them out of business, but remove any possible benefit from unethical behaviour.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Anonymous Coward]

I always wondered where they made the dyes for the U.S. Flag.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[causality]

People who don't have liquid assets* aren't affected by inflation

"Those people" constitute an empty set. You are vulnerable to inflation if you have any of the following "liquid" assets:

• Cash in your wallet.
• A checking or savings account.
• A retirement fund.
• An employer with any of the above or a payroll.

"The rich" don't care as much about inflation because they can move their investments to a more stable currency. This "capital flight" devastated Latin America when much of the country's wealth left its financial system overnight.

The poor and middle classes, however, are devastated. We generally have:

1. Wages and salary paid in cash or check.
2. Savings and checking accounts, also denominated in local currency.

All of those are wiped out by inflation.

Inflation also affects interest rates. A bank might lend $1000 today for $2000 a year from now, but the bank can lose money if inflation makes $2000 of next year's dollars worth less than $1000 of this year's dollars. Movements in interest rates directly affect "the rich" but also make it harder for everyone else to get loans, interest on a savings account, and the like. It slows job growth as financing to expand becomes more costly.

In short, inflation sucks. For everyone, but especially the poor and middle classes.

Thanks for explaining this for me. Economic education in the USA is drastically poor and most people don't understand how our money system actually works and how these things impact them.

Inflation is not something that "just happens". The federal government "prints" (most of it is done by computers actually) money out of thin air to finance much of its budget, which devalues the assets held by every American citizen. That's why it is a hidden tax. Like I said, instead of taking more of your money, they take its value. It ultimately has the same effect, except you won't see it come up as an issue during any campaign.

That's why every country's central bank works to keep inflation reasonable.

The central banks are directly responsible for inflation. Our fiat currency has no basis, is created out of thin air, and is then lent to the federal government by the Federal Reserve at interest. See the problem?

If the only money that exists is created by the Federal Reserve, and all of it eventually has to be paid back with interest, there is not enough money in circulation to pay back all debt. Therefore all the government can do is borrow more money at interest to make payments on interest. Debt can only accumulate. It's built into this system as part of its deliberate design. Do not take my word for this, please. Research it. You will see the same thing.

You have none of these problems if you have a representative currency, an example of which is a gold standard or a silver standard. But then the government has to finance all of its budget through confiscatory tax collection (income, excise, tariffs, etc) and cannot obtain unlimited funding through inflation. That naturally places a check against how large and powerful it may become. I'll ask again: see the problem (for them)?

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[Z34107]

A government cannot get "unlimited funding through inflation." Our government can run budget deficits because people will keep loaning us money - i.e., buying Treasury securities. Post-WWII Germany, Zimbabwe, Argentina, and a bunch of other countries serve as good examples of why a government's budget is not helped by running the presses.

If fiat currencies suck because of inflation, representative currencies suck because of deflation. With representative currency there is by definition a fixed amount in circulation, but that does nothing to stop the never-ending rise in demand for currency. Higher demand with a fixed supply of currency causes deflation.

Deflation sucks almost as much as inflation because it hurts those who borrow money. If you owe someone $1000 and the currency appreciates, you now have to pay back $2000 in constant dollars.

You don't get rid of inflation by using a representative currency; instead, you get negative inflation. Except that you now have no mechanism for controlling inflation.

Re:How did the US government miss this?

[causality]

It's not literally unlimited in the sense that it can indeed be quantified. For all practical purposes, however, it is unlimited in the sense that they will crash the entire economy and completely devalue the currency before they will decide that maybe they should stop doing that.

What do you suppose a treasure security is? The government needs another billion dollars. So it asks the Federal Reserve to create this money. The Federal Reserve then creates a billion dollars. It gives that to the federal government in exchange for a piece of paper created by the federal government called a treasury note. This is what the Federal Reserve calls a securities asset. It's basically an IOU signed by the federal government. The government then spends that billion dollars and one way or another, it enters the economy and increases the money supply by one billion.

This whole discussion would be much simpler if you'd research a few topics, such as the "Federal Reserve" and "fractional reserve banking" and "fiat currency".

You may find this interesting. Back in 1941, a Congressman named Wright Patman wanted to know where the Federal Reserve got the money to purchase two billion dollars worth of government bonds (securities assets) in 1933. These are actual quotes from when he asked that question of Marriner Eccles, who was then Governor of the Federal Reserve System:

Eccles: We created it.
Patman: Out of what?
Eccles: Out of the right to issue credit money.
Patman: And there is nothing behind it, is there, except our government's credit?
Eccles: That is what our money system is. If there were no debts in our money system, there wouldn't be any money.

Like I said, the Federal Reserve has been amazingly candid about its activities. Political organizations half as powerful usually hide behind platitudes and such.

By the way, whenever you hear the media talk about the "national debt", most of that is what the federal government owes to the Federal Reserve. The majority of it is not foreign debt as you seem to imply. In either case, foreign debt is not why the federal government can obtain nearly unlimited funding through the hidden tax of inflation. Regarding that domestic Federal Reserve debt, at the moment the Federal Reserve creates the money, it lends it to the federal government at interest. Therefore there cannot possibly be enough money in circulation to pay back that debt. This point cannot be emphasized enough.

Regarding your comments about possible deflation of representative currency and the harm it might do to borrowers, I don't consider that a bad thing. Under such a system, saving your money, building wealth over time (much more viable without inflation!), being thrifty, and not going into debt unless absolutely necessary are all rewarded. The current negative savings index of the American people would be strongly discouraged under that system. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Also, a representative currency needs absolutely no mechanism for controlling inflation. You state the lack of such a mechanism as though it were a downside. If you have a gold standard or a silver standard, you cannot have inflation because there is a finite amount of gold and silver on the planet. I already addressed your concerns about deflation by stating that they'd discourage the very behaviors that tend to destabilize an economy, like rampant debt and negative savings.

If you want a bit more edification, research Andrew Jackson's political battle against international bankers who wanted to establish a Federal Reserve type of system back in his day. They wanted to do it for quite some time before they finally managed to do so during the early 20th century. He gave a warning to future generations that we should have heeded.

In fact I'd kindly ask that you not respond until after you have researched that event. Unfortunately we don't have presidents like Jackson anymore who really represent our

Family Guy reference

[rattaroaz]

What naturally occurring substance has the highest known melting point? Answer: Cadmium?

Re:Family Guy reference

[Anonymous Coward]

carbon

Re:Family Guy reference

[Klinky]

I thought it was Cadburium, with the delectable creme centers...

Re:Family Guy reference

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

What naturally occurring substance has the highest known melting point? Answer: Cadmium?
Tungsten? And I didn't bother to RTFA(big surprise, this is /.), but is the cadmium part of the paint or of the glass matrix itself? If in the paint that's a problem. If in the glass matrix, unless you frequently serve your guests hydrofluoric acid at which point the HF leaching calcium out of their blood will kill them long before the Cd does, it's not so much of a problem.

Re:Family Guy reference

[rattaroaz]

On the Family Guy, Peter thought he was a genius and played trivial pursuit with Brian. Peter asked Brian the question, and Brian answered "Cadmium?" Peter's response was "No. Tungsten, dumbass," as if that was an obvious answer. I'm disappointed that no one saw or remembered that scene, but I'm MORE disappointed that I actually do.

Thermo Electron Nixon Gun?

[Degro]

Is this is a trap?

Re:Thermo Electron Nixon Gun?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it's actually a Ronald Raygun

Re:Thermo Electron Nixon Gun?

[Brett Buck]

Our children can't repel cadmium of that magnitude!

Re:Thermo Electron Nixon Gun?

[tsm_sf]

If your children can't hold their Nixon then your gun could use some fiiiixiiinnn.

((dang, I'm going to have to torrent those guys. Twenty year old tape copies count as proof of ownership, right?))

On the Bright Side...

[eulernet]

Since these glasses will be recalled, and probably not a lot were sold, they'll become an interesting deadly item for collectors.

Re:On the Bright Side...

[DogDude]

I agree. I'm going to get some to put next to my radioactive Fiestaware and cadmium laced Miley Cyrus jewelry.

Re:On the Bright Side...

[GargamelSpaceman]

I have no idea how many were sold but I bet it's alot, but these are the first McGlasses I've ever bought, and I bought all four. The glass itself is really nice and thick, and you can get your whole hand in there to wash it out, and they are not too tall, with a hefty bottom to prevent spills. And they're Shrek.

Unfortunately, the next day I hear they are poisonous and threw them all out. I thought about the collector's market, but come on, there's got to have been gazillions.

If it were just me, I would have kept the glasses - the paint is on the outside of the glass, but I am not the only one who drinks out of them.

I BET this is just a bunch of wankers complaining about something that isn't really all that dangerous, but what's the prize if I am right? 8 bucks worth of kitch. Not worth the risk.

multi sourced?

[Anonymous Coward]

But you are correct that the glasses were manufactured in NJ.

Perhaps the glasses are manufactured in NJ, but decorated in China?

Re:multi sourced?

[Anonymous Coward]

or maybe they buy the paint/pigments from an chinese manufacturer?

Re:multi sourced?

[MightyMartian]

Or maybe I guy called Vinnie the Butcher sold it to them from the back of van. This is New Jersey after all.

XRF is not a replacment for labratory testing.

[mosb1000]

I sometimes use it to analyze soil samples in the field. Since you aren't necessarily shooting a homogeneous substance, you sometimes get results that don't reflect the overall concentration. To get meaningful data you have to send it to a fixed lab where they will extract it and get an analytical result that is more likely to reflect the real concentration.

Re:XRF is not a replacment for labratory testing.

[Penicillus]

I sometimes use it to analyze soil samples in the field. Since you aren't necessarily shooting a homogeneous substance, you sometimes get results that don't reflect the overall concentration. To get meaningful data you have to send it to a fixed lab where they will extract it and get an analytical result that is more likely to reflect the real concentration.

Actually, XRFs are commonly used by industrial hygienists to determine concentrations of lead (Pb) in lead paint. In fact, the new renovation, repair and paint (RRP) law that went into effect on April 22 assumes lead is in paint on homes built before 1981, unless the paint is measured to be less than 0.5% lead. The best way to do so (per EPA) is to use an XRF to determine whether lead is present or not, and what its concentration is. Alternatively, paint chips can be analyzed for lead in a laboratory; however, one can obtain 200-300 measurements for lead in a building with an XRF, whereas one may take 10-20 paint chip samples in the same time. What I'm guessing happened is than an IH used an XRF on a glass that his/her kid brought home from McDonalds and found some aberrant spectra - the IH took those readings further, and found the spectra matched cadmium. He/She then sent the glass with the readings to the Congresswoman. Given that cadmium has been substituted for lead in kid's toys, etc. (which was prohibited by law), and cadmium is considerably more toxic than lead, the Congresswoman had the glass tested, and the recall began.

Re:XRF is not a replacment for labratory testing.

[blueg3]

That really depends on the area illuminated by the X-rays -- usually somewhere between a square millimeter and a square centimeter. XRF only samples the surface, though, somewhere between a micron and a millimeter, so if your sample varies significantly from the surface down, you need to address that.

Re:XRF is not a replacment for labratory testing.

[luckytroll]

There are a lot of methods that can ameliorate this, especially if you take samples of the soil back to the lab and process them for grain size, etc.

Nevertheless, if you have a lot of experience with this, you might find a chat with my spouse interesting as she has done extensive analysis of the effectiveness of XRF vs ICP etc in her work of late, notably relating to lead and manganese. So far the Niton units stack up pretty well against ICP if the samples are processed well.

and with a few hundred thousand in campaign funds

[Trailer Trash]

...we end up with Thermo Electron Niton XRF testing guns being illegal to possess in the US.

Anonymous Coward.

[Anonymous Coward]

I used these guns before, though quite expensive for what you get, they have accuracy issues (due to how you place the sample near the tip... nothing to get all excited about. I am sure a standard XRF would have given the same results.

Lemme guess, made in China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone know where these glasses where manufactured?

China would not be a surprise.

I want to eat all the Heavy Metal I can.

[Anonymous Coward]

Cuz I don't hafta pay for grills on my teeef. I wanna earn the bling bling like they earned gold back in the sand-panning.

what kind of paperwork

[nten]

The boring kind, or the fun kind with pictures of dead folks and Illuminati imagery? More specifically is the problem with corruption, not enough spot checks, too much import volume, or all of the above?

AHA!

[Anonymous Coward]

Arc International is present in five continents with production sites (France, USA, China, UAE), distribution subsidiaries (France, US, Spain, Australia, Mexico, Brazil, Japan) and sales offices."

A smoking gun if ever I saw one!

(We're blaming China for all our problems this week, aren't we?)

Re:AHA!

[Hognoxious]

We're blaming China for all our problems this week, aren't we?

Nah, BP. Goddam Belgians.

Re:AHA!

[socsoc]

Belgians? The headquarters are in London. Is this a meme that I'm missing?

xrf and lead-based paint -a correction

[Penicillus]

Correction - the paint on homes is considered lead based paint if the house was built earlier than 1978. FWIW, lead based paint is considered 0.5% Pb or greater by weight and any paint with lesser quantities of lead is considered lead-containing paint. HUD housing regulations for lead paint kick in when children 0-6 are present, and OSHA considers any lead in paint to be covered by the lead exposure standard.

Made in the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Made in New Jersey to be specific.

When an offending product is imported from China, the media proclaims the source in banner headlines. But when it is an American-made product, the source is buried in the bowels of the story - if at all.

All 12 million is these cadmium-tainted bad boys were made in New Jersey by ARC International. Yes, they are the same company that makes Pyrex glassware.

Re:Made in the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

The company you are referring to may be based in NJ but they use worldwide manufacturing locations. One of which is in China. No one has said they were made in the US.

I'm still betting these were made in China.

A new superhero!

[electricprof]

Thank you Cadmium Man for alerting us to the danger!

Cease and Desist

[McDonalds]

feeding them shit for food and turning them into future fatasses
Our food is only 5% shit by weight, and it takes more than just food to turn them into greasy, overweight nerds - specifically, you need WOW and a good internet connection.

a stupid clown and a dinky playground
Yeah? Let's see your clown and playground! From what your girlfriend says, you're the clown, and calling your "playground" dinky would be a compliment.

"i'm just big boned" or "its genetic"
Hey, your Mom liked my big bone, and that kind of thing is genetic. Sorry the "enhancement" ads lied to you, little anonymous coward.

- McDonalds

The Smart Mama may not be as smart as she lets on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anyone stopped to realize that the Niton XRF (X-ray Fluorescence) device uses gamma rays and x-rays to do its measurements? Nearly all the lab safety documentation I've read on them requires either a shielded sample holder during operation, or remote operation via computer to protect the operators from exposure.
I just saw a video clip of "The Smart Mama", quotes mine, happily shooting things in a Fox TV studio without any shielding or protective gear.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3935967/

Did she ever consider that possibly her instrument is more likely to cause cancer in her home than the toys that she's analysing?

The documentation for use in environmental analysis companies and university labs is easily available via google.

I work in labs where radiation is handled, and even for beta emitters we use acrylic shielding. This is GAMMA radiation which is much more fun, and damaging. I don't know about you, but I would probably try to limit the amount of things emitting gamma radiation in my house.

XRF

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironically I'm waiting for these to start coming out of China so I can afford one.

So since when are glasses toys?

[Ritchie70]

I've seen these glasses on display; they appear to be actual glass, although I could have been fooled. I didn't look very hard.

I assume the cadmium is in the paint on the exterior of the glass.

So it isn't a surface in contact with food.

It isn't a product that should be considered a toy. (FFS it's glass. Give the little darlings a nice razor blade to play with too.) So why does the "toy" standard apply?

I don't really get the recall at all, but McDonald's position, afaik, is that the cadmium levels are within legal limits, but the recall is being done to be sure of their customer's safety.

Re:So since when are glasses toys?

[Ritchie70]

OK, I actually read some of the linked articles. (I know, it's crazy.)

The recall now makes a lot more sense to me.

Re:and with a few hundred thousand in campaign fun

[Anonymous Coward]

well does have a 30kv xray tube in it- I can see them requiring medical licensure or something.

Faulty risk assessment

[fermion]

I mean, honestly, if you are going to poison your kid with McDonald's, what is a little bit more poisoning with cadmium. Ailments allegedly related to cadmium exposure is cancer, kidney problems and weakened bones. In high quantities. How high are the quantities going to be with kids licking the yellow paint off the glass, even if the paint chips I suspect the real risk is to with the glass. The meal itself should be what parent worry about, especially if they eat there more than once a month Most of the preservatives in the Happy meal are carcinogens as well, some will actually cause mutations. Sodium leads to hypertension, and in a country where 1/3 of the kids are overweight, and the real level of needed salt is about half of that listed on most nutritional sheets, we are setting these kids up for heart attacks at an early age. Other forms of sodium are in the meal and are toxic is high levels.

I am not saying that the glasses are safe, or should be recalled. But if a parent feeds a child this toxic cancer causing mixture of chemical that McDonald's calls food, I hardly see how they can complain about a little paint that probably is not even above current standards. The fumes coming from the SUV is probably more toxic.

Re:Faulty risk assessment

[timmarhy]

let me guess you watched "super size me" and your on the mcdonalds outrage bandwagon?

I can go to mcdonalds and buy a skinless chicken wrap and an apple for lunch. you can eat just as healthy at mcdonalds as you can at any wanky organic health food shop. just because it's on the menu, are you really going to blame mcdonalds for people lacking self control?

Re:Faulty risk assessment

[pipedwho]

Those healthy things on the menu are primarily there for marketing purposes to placate the people that say MacDonalds is unhealthy (even if they never eat there). For the 2% of people eat the good stuff at MacDonalds, more power to them.

However, you can pretty much guarantee that nearly every kid that is taken to MacDonalds will not be eating off their healthy menu.

And from fermion's slashdot ID, I'd say that he (along with just about everyone else from that era) held that opinion well before "super size me" was ever made. In fact "super size me" was only successful because so many people had for years/decades already believed the core premise of the movie.

Back in the '80s we used to sit and eat in Maccas, and the whole time we'd basically talk about how bad it was for us and how if we died our plasticised bodies would never decompose. Then we'd go back and eat it again the next week.

So, no, the 'outrage' bandwagon has nothing to do with your straw man. It's been around a long time before that.

Re:Faulty risk assessment

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in the '80s we used to sit and eat in Maccas, and the whole time we'd basically talk about how bad it was for us and how if we died our plasticised bodies would never decompose. Then we'd go back and eat it again the next week.

OMG! OMG! You ate McD's once a week? Dude! You are like going to Totally. Fuking. DIE.

Oh wait. You're going to die anyway even if you never eat at McDonalds.

In fact "super size me" was only successful because so many people had for years/decades already believed the core premise of the movie.

It was only successful because a lot of people are completely retarded idiots who don't understand that eating oversized portions of just about any food, let alone fat and sodium laden fast food, is going to fatten you right up.

Far easier for the lazy and stupid to point their greasy, chubby fingers at McDonalds and claim the food McDonalds serves is unhealthy rather than take responsibility for their own ignorance of proper nutrition and their own poor eating habits. Life is ever so much nicer when everything bad that happens to you is clearly someone else's fault.

Re:Faulty risk assessment

[fermion]

I know that people don' know history, so they think they have made up everything in the world. They think they made up sex. They don't know what came before, and really don't care.

Certain health and occupational risks have been known for quite a long time. For example, smoking was not just suddenly found dangerous in the 60's when the surgeon general of the US warned us that smoking would kill us, studies have been stacking up since the late 19 century. Likewise, the dangers of our industrial food supply have an equally long history. The most famous early work in called the Jungle, 1906. More recently is the 1987 Pulitzer prize winning book Diet for a New America.

The point is that we are very bad at risk assessment. We will not let our children walk the neighborhood because of the very minor threat of getting abducted(only about 60,000 kids are abducted by non family members, population US 307 million, 25% kids, 77 million kids...), but will feed them food that is guaranteed to increase their chance of cancer and diabetes. A parent will worry about cell phones and electrical cables near their house, while feeding their obeses kid hamburger2.

Chance of being kidnapped is a small fraction of 1%. Chance of a child being obese or overweight, about 33%.

The movie may be silly, but it proves that most of what we do to corporations is merely wrist slapping when we let them kill our kids.

Project Suggestions

[Anonymous Coward]

How much cadmium is there in raw light crude? Say, in a 1700m column of seawater, in a sedate current?

How much of other heavy / interesting metals and oxides?

What's their rate of deposition?

Have lots of fun, now.

Compared to McDonalds Food?

[blazemonkey]

Come on, the kids with these glasses were most likely eating at mcdonalds. I think cadmium would be the least of their worries!

The XRF is news, but high school chemistry lags

[beachdog]

There are several kinds of news in this report.

I am first of all puzzled why hand held X-ray spectrometers (XRF) don't get coverage in the popular technology press.

The XRF device is quite close to the technology modelled in the Star Trek science fiction TV series.

These hand held spectrometers retail for $30,000. Several firms are offering similar devices. That means a kit could possibly be offered for $3000 or even $300, given say 3 or 4 years as bargain versions of the key components are gradually put into production.

Even at $30,000, a hand held XRF unit has all kinds of potential as the basis of a materials and environmental testing service that bills customers for $100 to $35 an hour.

The second very disappointing news I pulled out of this article is my son's 2007 high school Chemistry textbook does not mention X-ray spectrometry. He is using a California state approved textbook.

Heck, I look at his book further and note, it doesn't index "chromatography" or "gas chromatography" either.

I have been asking my son "Have you learned how to do inorganic cation analysis yet?" Chemistry class was the high point of my years in high school 45 years ago.

Looking both ways I see a problem: The California high school chemistry curriculum is stuck in the past. He should have used an XRF in chemistry lab.

I'm stuck in the past too. At Lawrence Hall of Science in Berkeley I took photos of the Lawrence 4" synchrotron. I have been thinking, gee, for some reason I think it would be handy to build a particle accelerator. Now I know, the gadget I might build is for sale. I am going to check EBay for an XRF real soon now.

Lemons? Then make lemonade!

[rts008]

Now you know what gift to request for Fathers day, or at least what to drop hints about...your very own Happy Meal w/Thermo Electron Niton XRF testing gun!

You have not played this game very long, have you?
Put that /. user intellect to work man!

Re:I'm betting vs Recent China-Fraud Article

[hashstamp]

On June 2 abcnews ran a story you can easily find with the Google query (( Mouazzen Shanghai )) - "The Flip Side of China's Economic Miracle A German Businessman Finds Corruption in Dealings With China". Basically his business was in arranging the international sale of heavy equipment - his mistake was to stop the video-documentary after the crane was in a numbered container in a huge line with other trucks to get thru customs. Sometime after that the crane got fraudulently swapped - the relatively large effort involved in fraudulently swapping a heavy crane is the cautionary part, they WILL go to that length to steal-a-buck pver there.

Two sides of the same coin

[backwardMechanic]

Funny how so many people complain about "made in China" while no-one is turning down cheap gadgets.

Now If We Just Knew

[ainandil]

...what the hell is in the special sauce.

Yet another reason...

[ismism]

...not to buy dead, rotting flesh from these creeps.

Re:and with a few hundred thousand in campaign fun

[Anonymous Coward]

Land of the free, home of the brave.

Hahahahaha.

Now WHO would put cadmium in a DRINKING glass?

[TaleSpinner]

Oooohh...this is a toughie. Highly toxic material, slapped onto a drinking glass. Cadmium. Oh! Cadmium charm bracelets! Could it be China? Again? Why don't we learn?

Re:Now WHO would put cadmium in a DRINKING glass?

[arth1]

Because we have long ago stopped thinking long term.

When our grandparents wanted to change their investments, they would book an appointment with their broker agent, who would have the broker set up a proposed buy sale sometime in the future. You had to have ice in your stomach to be able to play the stock market.
These days, trades are electronic and near instantaneous. You can change your mind on a whim, and realise short term gains you previously couldn't. The companies have to adjust accordingly to attract investor money (both because the system in monst countries allows executives and board members to own stock, and because the stock price changes the credit rating and thus cost of operations), and focus on short term profits and cost cuts.
I.e. buy what's cheapest, and don't pay extra for quality or anything that might benefit the company in the long term. China is at present the cheapest, and mostly still willing to sell against US IOU chits (although the trade imbalance is approaching a saturation point).

And if you thought the current short term focus and profit maximizing was bad, in a handful of years, the people with the money and power will be the twitter generation, with attention spans of seconds. The people who'd never see this sentence due to tl;dr.
And if seems likely now, the Tea Party movement and other right-wing populist movements gain more foothold because people are fed up with the system, even more lassez-faire and less consumer protection. Consumer beware.

Could have less cheap crap made overseas...

[Alcoholist]

...just saying.

Bloody Belgians

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>We're blaming China for all our problems this week, aren't we?
>>Nah, BP. Goddam Belgians.
>Belgians? The headquarters are in London.

(The Belgians are headquartered in London?)

London is probably the name of a city in the Chinese Phrok Yewh province.

Clearly, it is therefore a Chinese plot to steal the oil:

Step 1: Blow up deep water rig, use stealth subs* to vacuum up crude
Step 2: Hand-extract & process hydrocarbons in huge sweatshops
Step 3: Sell gasoline (leaded only ;) cheap at Wah Chitgo stations**
Step 4: PLOFIT!

* dressed like fish
** sell fish (leaded only ;) at local markets

Is this a meme that I'm missing?

Not what you meme by this.