Urine Test For Autism

An anonymous reader writes "Defining and diagnosing autism has been a controversial process — but may be a little less so now. Children with autism have a different chemical fingerprint in their urine than non-autistic children, according to new research. The difference stems from a previously documented difference in gut bacteria found in autistic individuals. The possibility of a simple pee test matters because currently, children are assessed for autism through a lengthy testing process that explores a child's social interaction, communication, and imaginative skills. Being able to identify the condition earlier and at a lower cost could leave more time and money for treatment."

Comments

3 fluid ounces

[LiquidCoooled]

3 fluid ounces, definitely 3 fluid ounces.

Re:3 fluid ounces

[morgan_greywolf]

I can't pee right now. It's time for Wopner!

Re:3 fluid ounces

[Cryacin]

Now you're just taking the piss.

Re:3 fluid ounces

[Larryish]

The testing will go something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWiUwiHmCoo

Re:3 fluid ounces

[wisdom_brewing]

You piss on them and see how they react??

Re:3 fluid ounces

[Anonymous Coward]

3 fluid ounces, definitely 3 fluid ounces.

My son is autistic. From where does the information come that it can now be detected through urine? Is there a science magazine source?

Re:3 fluid ounces

[cjcela]

RTFA. It is a journal, not a science magazine. From the first paragraph, "Children with autism have a different chemical fingerprint in their urine than non-autistic children, according to new research published tomorrow in the print edition of the Journal of Proteome Research."

Re:3 fluid ounces

[Sulphur]

Do they pissadeer?

Re:3 fluid ounces

[OrangeCatholic]

Published tomorrow, gotta love that. And when it is published, they will ask for everyone to pony up $20 to check THEIR research.

Wasn't science supposed to be openly reviewed?

Not saying this is wrong, just that it falls into a pattern of money first, answers later.

Re:3 fluid ounces

[Kell Bengal]

That's not how peer reveiw works. To get ones research published in a journal, you submit the work and they send it to experts in the field to be checked and vetted. Once the reviews come back ok and any corrections or clarrifications made, the article is published and the publisher sells the compiled volume to other researchers interested in work going on in the field. Believe it or not, researchers don't acutally get paid for having their work published. Most would just as well give and get their articles disseminated without charge. Unfortunately the peer review process needs someone to organise it, and that someone needs to be paid. Short of government subsidised publishing or pro-bono editorial by professional societies, without charging for volumes, journals can't be produced while maintaining rigorous technical standards. And yes, I've been on both sides of the review/submission end of journal publication.

Re:3 fluid ounces

[Custard Horse]

The test is positive if they don't look at the cup when giving a sample

screening for young engineers

[freshfromthevat]

It would be a shame if geek-ness was TREATED to eliminate it.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Raven42rac]

There's quite a difference between geekery and a crippling condition such as this.

Re:screening for young engineers

[$RANDOMLUSER]

We already have Ritalin (or alcohol) for that. Most of the really good engineers (of many stripes) I know are functionally autistic, ADD/ADDHD or high-functioning alcoholics.

Re:screening for young engineers

[O('_')O_Bush]

Geekiness and social skills are not mutually exclusive. In fact, engineers and other technical people who have a lack of social skills as adults tend to be the bottom of the food chain.

Companies value extroverted engineers far more than they do the dime-a-dozen geek with mild autism.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Darkness404]

They might value them but what companies need great engineers even with no social skills. Imagine a company filled with people exactly like Steve Jobs or Steve Ballmer, nothing would get done. On the other hand, a group of code monkeys would make great products that might not be what people want. Thats why in most tech companies there are few manager-type social-engineers like Jobs and Ballmer and many, many code monkeys. Because there are fewer of the manager-type social-engineers, they need to get better ones so they get paid more and more "valued".

Re:screening for young engineers

[sznupi]

Large part of being an engineer is an ability to interact with people effectively.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Volante3192]

"Autism" is hardly crippling without quantifiers given how broadly it's defined and diagnosed these days.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be a shame if geek-ness was TREATED to eliminate it.

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Re:screening for young engineers

[IANAAC]

Geek and engineer are not synonymous.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Anonymous Coward]

Managers are people with a high level scope of the company, and may be engineers, but typically are not. Steve Jobs and Ballmer are first entrepreneurs and business people with vision and high level understanding of managing people, and then engineers.

A great engineer HAS social skills, they can communicate problems with management, work well in a team, they accept criticism and project changes without taking it personally, they make connections so that they can get things done.

A poor engineer might be able to make a few breakthroughs or calculations, but the real world isn't Hollywood where companies rely engineer supergenius nerd charicatures that prove their worth in the technical side.

There are great technical engineers and there are engineers with great social skills, and great technical engineers with social skills are far more needed than great technical engineers that do not fit well with the rest of the company. If they can fix the inability to grow socially, then companies get more of what they need.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Sir_Sri]

not all autism is crippling. It can have a fairly broad spectrum, and the argument the OP seems to be trying to make is that quite a lot of the geeks and nerds in the world are a high functioning form of autism. I wouldn't guess as to percentage, but having worked in a disabilities service office at a university for 4 years, the sciences have a disproportionate share of the autism types, whereas the arts tend to cope better with ADHD types and so on.

Granted, a lot of this is self fulfilling. People with aspergers get into positions in universities and schools and build a nurturing environment for other people with aspergers. I live in ontario, and we are in the process of implementing new laws called the Accessibility for Ontarians with disabilities acts (AODA). At my particular institution the arts have been all over trying to get compliance, and be more accessible, whereas the science departments figure they've been accessible enough (and to a large degree are correct), and that the training is a waste of time. The implicit undercurrent is that the science departments already are accessible, because otherwise there wouldn't be any domestic scientists.

There is a lot to be said for treating even the mild cases though. Anger management is a major issue for a lot of people with autism, and they risk taking it out on subordinates in a fashion that to the rest of us is utterly irrational, equally a lack of social skills can limit their access to useful employment, and while they tend to need a different sort of office from the more socially amenable types, they can be remarkably productive, if they can get a job. It's also useful to know in advance the sorts of things you need to watch out for as a parent or in my case as a guy who fixed printers in an office full of students with some sorts of disability - people with autism will have odd movement behaviours which can be both distracting and disruptive, as well as have anger outburts if the printer doesn't work right away. In my experience they aren't good at personal responsibility either(you pushed the wrong button, it doesn't matter what you think the button should have done, that's not what it does, and getting mad at me over it doesn't teach you how to push the correct one next time type problems), but that is not part of any official diagnosis.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Kozz]

We already have Ritalin (or alcohol) for that. Most of the really good engineers (of many stripes) I know are functionally autistic, ADD/ADDHD or high-functioning alcoholics.

Just to clarify... Ritalin=stimulant. Alcohol=depressant. They don't do the same kinds of things.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Anpheus]

Asperger's? No problem.

Non-verbal autism? They aren't able to interact with the rest of the world.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not autism, but "autism spectrum disorder". And that is indeed a bullshit monicker that is often used in cases that have nothing to do with autism, and mainly serves to appease people that want a "medical condition" to blame for their perceived or real lack of social skills.

Re:screening for young engineers

[sznupi]

And tests such as the one if TFS might actually make the definition and diagnostic process more meaningful.

Re:screening for young engineers

[blackraven14250]

But for the higher-functioning autistic, they have the same result.

Re:screening for young engineers

[$RANDOMLUSER]

Just to clarify... Ritalin = medication by doctors. Alcohol = self-medication. Meanwhile, the effect of Ritalin on an overactive child is as a depressant, not a stimulant.

What I'm saying is that we're using more and more labels to enforce a kind of chemical conformity. It's easier to medicate an imaginative and unruly child than it is to channel that energy. I'll bet if Richard Feynman (as an example) were a third-grader today, they'd be medicating him.

We need to avoid flouride and protect our precious bodily fluids!

Re:screening for young engineers

[Shin-LaC]

Speaking of which, what if we found that many people who have been diagnosed with Asperger's turn out negative in this test?

Re:screening for young engineers

[Freedom Bug]

Which just goes to show you how useless those little boxes are.

Sure, Ritalin is a stimulant, if you don't have ADHD. But if you do have ADHD, Ritalin acts more like a depressant. That's one of the differentiators between true ADHD and normal hyperactivity.

And yes, alcohol is technically a depressant, but unless you're living in a cave you know that alcohol can have effects that are very similar to those of stimulants.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes it's to get insurance funding for treatment or services in the school districts. Sometimes an autism diagnosis will bring funding that the catch-all "Pervasive Developmental Delay - Not Otherwise Specified" (PDD-NOS) will not. This could also have something to do with autism being a disease of the rich. Poor people tend not to have the skill at pressuring providers in the health care system in order to get what they want.

You have no idea how many times I've seen kids with two lawyers as parents get schools to pay for outside individual therapy when kids with the same or worse diagnoses who don't have lawyers for parents get stuck in a setting that doesn't help them at all (i.e classroom with 10 to 20 similarly uncontrollable kids.)

Re:screening for young engineers

[Anonymous Coward]

I've know a lot of excellent engineers in my time. I can think of maybe one that was borderline Asperger's syndrome but none that could be classified as Autistic. Far too many people think "slightly odd and lacking in social skills" means autistic. Well, that might be someone who have some of the genetic markers for autism. They should probably think twice before marrying someone who is similarly odd. They might get an autistic child. And autistic people do not tend to be brilliant. A couple percent might be savants, but most are in the IQ range below 85 and have no special skills in math or engineers. But they do tend to remember all their letters at a younger age than normal children. And they memorize some words early, but don't really get the idea that letters make up words in a way that would allow them to see a new word and figure out what it is. They might 't','h','e' or they'll see 'the' but not both. In they same way they might be able to read the words, but not understand the sentence.

If you put a random autistic person at a desk they might start rocking back and forth, or they might trace the horizontal lines of the desk back and forth. They might grab the mouse and run it back and forth over the mouse pad while watching at extremely close range. They will not design something.

Almost all of those people on the net who claim to be autistic are really just odd and bad tempered. Autism is just an excuse for that. Also, because some people seem to think autistic people are geniuses it makes those odd and bad tempered people feel good about themselves.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Hognoxious]

You wouldn't think so, to listen to all the "special" people round here.

Re:screening for young engineers

[tomhudson]

Wrong. Alcohol in moderate quantities is a stimulant, not a depressant. By selectively depressing certain brain functions (inhibitions) it allows other areas to act that would normally be suppressed. Thus the overall effect is a moderate stimulant.

At the same time, it increases dilation of the fine blood vessels, giving rise to the "flushed face", etc., as well as a higher heart rate.

And since one or two drinks a day is better for your heart than no drinks a day, being alive is certainly more stimulating than being dead.

Re:screening for young engineers

[smidget2k4]

Which woud bolster the decision to remove Aspergers from the Autism Spectrum in the new DSV

Re:screening for young engineers

[smidget2k4]

Nope, you're wrong. Alcohol is a depressant. Just because you may "feel stimulated" because of the effect it is having on your brain does not mean that your body is actually treating it like a stimulant, it is just targeting your inhibitions so you "feel more stimulated". Anything that depresses areas of the brain is a depressant.

Re:screening for young engineers

[WCguru42]

And yes, alcohol is technically a depressant, but unless you're living in a cave you know that alcohol can have effects that are very similar to those of stimulants.

Don't confuse stimulant with lack of inhibition.

Re:screening for young engineers

[jadavis]

not all autism is crippling. It can have a fairly broad spectrum

I'm skeptical when I hear things like that. Broad-spectrum conditions that are diagnosed through subjective tests (especially mental/social tests) leave a lot of room for misdiagnosis and over-diagnosis.

In the US, this is a particular problem because there is a financial incentive to both the individual and perhaps to the school if the diagnosis is autism. For instance, the thought process might be something like "well, we're not really sure, but if we don't say it's autism, then we don't get any money to treat it".

Also, it's far from clear that "mild cases" are really a problem at all.

Re:screening for young engineers

[tomhudson]

Nice way to miss the physical effects I cited.

The heart speeds up. That is stimulation.

The heart slowing down would be a depressant.

The heart stopping would be depressing, but it won't last for long, you'll get over it :-)

Re:screening for young engineers

[JimboFBX]

The thing is, autism symptoms are a gradient. Its a big slippery slope of "wait a sec, but this person is basically the same except slightly better in this area". Some people have it to the extreme to where they really should just be thrown to the wolves while others are able to control and manage the symptoms to where nobody would know the difference. After learning about the symptoms and thinking about the difficulties I had growing up, I'm pretty sure I fit into the autistic spectrum disorder definition. I think the big thing about autism is obsessiveness combined with other "hints". Do I have tantrum fits? Yes, although curently they almost never happen and I never let them happen around people now. Am I obsessive? Yes, I can do things for hours and not get bored, constantly rewarded by the progress I make with what I am doing. Do I have bad social skills? Yes, I'm on slashdot, of course I do! However, I make friends a lot easier now that I understand that people judge friendliness by if I make an effort to smile or not.

And you know what? I also have tend to have bad breath that originates in from my stomach. So we'll see if this urine test actually works and maybe I don't have to run through the big checklist of symptoms anymore.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Anpheus]

If autism is a spectrum, then it indicates that there are a number of factors that determine "how autistic" someone is, and we don't know how many of those factors correlate to the test above. What if the test above only correlates to one of the unknown factors of autism? It could do more harm than good to label some kids as autistic, even if they had only one of those genes or environmental causes, or another kid as not autistic because he has all of the factors that would put him firmly in the non-verbal camp, but the one that is tested for?

You have to be really, really careful with correlations like this.

Re:screening for young engineers

[net28573]

i 'll have you know that those repetitive motions you were talking about are critically important in many thought processes that usually lead to the next physics theory, or a new method of data storage.

Re:screening for young engineers

[lgw]

Just because diagnosis is uncertain, or gamed for advantage, doesn't mean there isn't a real condition. The brain is supposed to come with a large collection of (metaphorical) firmware that lets you cope reasonably with the vast wealth of sense data we're bombarded with. Some very powerful processing goes on at a completely subconscious level. There are quite a few people who seem to be missing some of these abilities we all take for granted, but can (as a result?) make more use of their brain for more abstract problems.

If someone's missing the "firmware" for facial recognition that's a real disability for social interaction, and one that can only somewhat be backfilled by conscious effort. If someone's missing the firmware that makes vision useful, the sunconscious breaking down of raw data into "objects" positioned in a 3D mental model, that's a severe disability, as you can only do so much consciously - maybe cross a room safely with a lot of mental effort, but crossing a street?

There's a lot of strictly social-interaction stuff like this as well - attachment of emotional responses to images, sounds, and scents, that is also very subconscious, and a lot harder to diagnose or even specify, but much more "real" than someone trying to excuse ordinary asshole behavior by calling himself an Aspie.

So, there's 1001 symptoms informally collected as "autism", which doesn't help much. The research in TFA is terrific, as it means some subset of these symptoms can be studied as a condition with presumably a biological cause that might eventually be cured. It also means a lot of unrelated stuff won't be lumped together just because the symptoms are similar.

Re:screening for young engineers

[insertwackynamehere]

Nope. It's a stimulant in lower quantities. It's a depressant in higher quantities.

Re:screening for young engineers

[BlackBloq]

Have you known one Autistic child/adult? Have you actually watched them in a care environment and dealt with them one on one? You wrote like a definitive source yet you are experiencing what...? Fucking tech support. Shut the fuck up and quit talking like you know shit.You said "having worked in a disabilities service office" here you sound like you know what you are talking about like an admin maybe in enrollment. And you are really"a guy who fixed printers in an office full of students with some sorts of disability". It's some SORT of disability not sorts. Shut the fuck up loser, go fix a printer and keep your bullshit to yourself. You don't know shit so don't type like you are a doctor or even a autism worker. What an ass.

Re:screening for young engineers

[CAIMLAS]

The problem is that the so-called 'mild cases' of autism spectrum are treated as a problem - a huge problem - in schools.

Autism spectrum kids tend to float in the "social outcast" group, from my recollections and observations. They're the smart ones who have a hard time dealing with normal situations, so they make their own little worlds. They hang together. From what I've seen, the goth/punk/geek types tend to be one and the same, if not on an individual basis then as a group. But as groups (individual 'groups' as well as the whole), yes, they're the autistic ones.

I'm not talking about kids about ready to drop out of school: those seem to be an entirely different group of goth/punk/whatever. These are the "I'm because it's cool to be , and I'm cool enough to not be trendy" kids. Largely, I think they do it for the chicks.

Sure, it's cliquish bullshit, but these kids do stand out for reasons other than the way they dress: they're skeptical or critical of school authority, tend to obey rules only as far as they need to, do their school work only as much as needed to keep teachers off their back, and are typically already semi-experts in something interesting and technical by the time they're done with high school.

So, arguably, yes: they're a problem - for schools. They don't buy the party line, and do their own thing. For an institution which prides itself in one-thinking, this is kinda dangerous for the typical high school.

As a society, no: these people aren't a "problem". They're a huge asset. I'm not saying "embrace the geeks" - because I think that might actually degrade some of the skills autistic types develop as a result of their outside status - but they are an asset.

(My BIL, as well as several friends are high-functioning autistic spectrum types. Some of them quite obviously.)

Re:screening for young engineers

[Anonymous Coward]

Caffeine also does the switch, and nicotine does some weird shit. I swear it's like my imagination is turned off when I smoke, I can technically focus, but I'm so unused to it that I just break down.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Anonymous Coward]

The current draft specification of the DSM-V doesn't remove Asperger's Syndrome from Autism Spectrum Disorder; it merges Asperger's Syndrome into the classification of Autistic Disorder.

Re:screening for young engineers

[OrangeCatholic]

>Which woud bolster the decision to remove Aspergers from the Autism Spectrum in the new DSV

It would mean that Asperger's is social, and Autism is biological.

But they still have similar symptoms.

Question: Joe Rock is a terrible major-league pitcher. Is it because he has short legs, or is it because he never went to baseball camp?

I would say "causation" can be pretty subjective. Important, but ultimately not an issue to his employer.

Re:screening for young engineers

[OrangeCatholic]

>Also, it's far from clear that "mild cases" are really a problem at all.

I think he addressed this when he said,

Anger management is a major issue for a lot of people with autism, and they risk taking it out on subordinates in a fashion that to the rest of us is utterly irrational

My two cents, "fitting in" is very important and ultimately not that hard. If you're still having problems with it, then maybe "mild" is not the word.

Re:screening for young engineers

[OrangeCatholic]

>If someone's missing the firmware that makes vision useful, the sunconscious breaking down of raw data into "objects" positioned in a 3D mental model, that's a severe disability

In grade school, drawing was a major activity for pretty much everyone. The best kids ("artists") were revered as godlike. They had a natural talent that could not be replicated with effort.

For me, it was a major wake-up call to realize the "artists" probably had autism. They were seeing 3D as 2D. They simply drew what they saw.

I'm still jealous of them, but not nearly as much. I have to wonder what they aren't doing with their lack of spatial perception.

Anyone got test results? There were many spatial tests in childhood, fwir.

Re:screening for young engineers

[OrangeCatholic]

You mean SLC Punk was right? Mods and punks are allies?

It's not that hard. But I wonder who buys the scooters.

Re:screening for young engineers

[OrangeCatholic]

>Just to clarify... Ritalin=stimulant. Alcohol=depressant. They don't do the same kinds of things.

IN COR RECT.

They are different, but not as you would assume.

All "good" drugs are stimulants in some way. Alcohol stimulates something, otherwise it wouldn't be so popular.

I'm not going to hold your hand while you figure out why they're similar. Suffice to say, barely. But more than you think, apparently.

Re:screening for young engineers

[OrangeCatholic]

>Don't confuse stimulant with lack of inhibition.

Wrong. Rec-drugs are popular because they are stimulants.

You thought everyone at a bar wants to go to sleep?

Read up on dopamine versus seratonin. +100% dopamine is not the same as a depressant. I'm sure Michael J. Fox envys your dope-dealing ways.

Re:screening for young engineers

[OrangeCatholic]

Body vs. brain is the crucial aspect you guys are missing.

Alcohol is a brain stimulant (dopamine) while also being a whole-body anesthetic.

Never mix brain and body. Otherwise you will be wondering why cocaine (anesthetic) is an "upper".

Re:screening for young engineers

[Coriolis]

It would mean that Asperger's is social, and Autism is biological.

Well, no. It'd just mean they aren't the same disorder. Which is what people have suggesting for some time now.

Re:screening for young engineers

[Hognoxious]

what if we found that many people who have been diagnosed with Asperger's turn out negative in this test?

We might get some peace and quiet every time a story about 'tards get posted?

Re:screening for young engineers

[Kozz]

>Just to clarify... Ritalin=stimulant. Alcohol=depressant. They don't do the same kinds of things.

IN COR RECT.

They are different, but not as you would assume.

All "good" drugs are stimulants in some way. Alcohol stimulates something, otherwise it wouldn't be so popular.

I'm not going to hold your hand while you figure out why they're similar. Suffice to say, barely. But more than you think, apparently.

I'm astonished by the number of apparent lay opinions telling me how wrong I am. I don't know what you mean by "good". Does that mean "good for your body"? Does it mean "people enjoy it"? "Good" for society? Seriously, look up the definitions of the two words "stimulant" and "depressant".

And I never said anything about "popular". I know that at the mention of "drugs", some people are only capable of thinking of their recreational uses and their anecdotes.

Re:screening for young engineers

[budgenator]

You would be definitely surprised at how well non-verbal autistics of normal intelligence interacts with the world given a keypad and voice synthesizer.

Re:screening for young engineers

[BlackBloq]

Wimp ass moderators marked the above post as flame because they cannot read in context and are fucking morons. Woa bitches!

Re:screening for young engineers

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really a depressant. more like... allows the subject to focus and not be irritable and distracted (and hyperactive).

Re:screening for young engineers

[MightyDrunken]

Alcohol is a depressant. This is because it acts to increase GABA the chief inhibitory neurotransmitter. As the concentration of ethanol increases more and more subtypes of GABA are affected. This increasing inhibitory effect will lead to different degrees of inhibitory response in different parts of the brain.

So at first you have a relaxing euphoric effect, some more and you may not remember much until your nervous system is "very depressed" and you can't even walk.

When drugs are described as a stimulant or depressant the most clear cut way of seeing which is which is to see how it affects the nervous system.

The test works like this:

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can correctly count the number of drops in a stream of urine, you are autistic.

Everyone else has aspergers.

Re:The test works like this:

[ciderVisor]

Stop taking the piss out of them.

Labeling

[Darkness404]

I can't see this being of any benefit in the long term. The problem is, even if they -have- autism or other defects, labeling them will do nothing to have them overcome it and will lead the majority of them to make excuses to why they aren't productive members of society.

I really don't understand the western mentality of labeling everyone to try to "help". Which is going to make people want to get ahead in life? Being told "hey you have -insert mental disability here-" or "hey, your not doing to great in -insert school subject here-". One has people making excuses and the other just has them either not focus on that and focus on what they are good at or try harder.

Re:Labeling

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you retarded?

Re:Labeling

[AndrewBC]

Hey, you're not doing too well in English.

Re:Labeling

[Anonymous Coward]

So you want to just ignore the condition? Where do you draw the line there? Wanna not tell someone they're dying of lung cancer because you're afraid they're going to get depressed and act like a dying cancer patient?

Get real. People get stuck with all kinds of shitty things, it's their own choice to overcome their problems or not. You can't assume the lowest common denominator is normal and scapegoat labeling for peoples' inability to cope.

Re:Labeling

[casings]

Autism isn't a label, it's a condition. The western mentality to diagnose and treat conditions is why humans' life expectancies have increased.

Stop regurgitating shit you hear from bad late night comics and ignorant rednecks.

Re:Labeling

[Ephemeriis]

I can't see this being of any benefit in the long term. The problem is, even if they -have- autism or other defects, labeling them will do nothing to have them overcome it and will lead the majority of them to make excuses to why they aren't productive members of society.

I really don't understand the western mentality of labeling everyone to try to "help". Which is going to make people want to get ahead in life? Being told "hey you have -insert mental disability here-" or "hey, your not doing to great in -insert school subject here-". One has people making excuses and the other just has them either not focus on that and focus on what they are good at or try harder.

Autism is a physical, biological disorder. It is a disease, not a mood. It isn't like you'll suddenly stop being autistic because you forgot you had it.

Early diagnosis gives you more time for treatment, which will actually help people become more functional individuals.

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't perform mammograms or colonoscopy because you don't actually have any ill effects from the cancer until after you've been labelled?

By that logic, we should just stop running tests all-together, because we'd all be far healthier if we didn't have any labels.

Re:Labeling

[nunojsilva]

Of course this marker, if it is really associated with autism, might provide a quick and efficient way to test it.

I agree labeling people quicker will not be the best way to have them help themselves, but maybe the fact there is this marker also tells us autistic subjects are not just making excuses, but that they have a - at least - chemical reason to be less social?

(Take this with a grain of salt, I'm no genetics/chemistry/psychology expert.)

Re:Labeling

[krewemaynard]

I can't see this being of any benefit in the long term. The problem is, even if they -have- autism or other defects, labeling them will do nothing to have them overcome it and will lead the majority of them to make excuses to why they aren't productive members of society. I really don't understand the western mentality of labeling everyone to try to "help". Which is going to make people want to get ahead in life? Being told "hey you have -insert mental disability here-" or "hey, your not doing to great in -insert school subject here-". One has people making excuses and the other just has them either not focus on that and focus on what they are good at or try harder.

Are you serious? The sooner you get a diagnosis, the more therapy and assistance you can provide, which leads to greater success as the child gets older. Speech delays, learning disabilities...they don't have to be show stoppers. How much harder is it when parents struggle for years without knowing what's going on? How much harder is it for the kid when everyone just thinks s/he's dumb or lazy, not realizing there's an actual underlying condition? When you know what that condition is, you know how to approach it and offer help. It's not just a matter of applying a label and being done with it...it's understanding that the child has a neurological condition and finding ways to work with and around it.

/I have an autistic child, so I'm getting a kick....
//Now hand the keyboard back to your parents, let the grown ups talk.

Re:Labeling

[sznupi]

At the least, such tests can weed out people who in fact -don't have- autism.

Re:Labeling

[dgatwood]

First, the earlier doctors can identify it, the more likely it is that scientists will be able to identify the very first expression of whatever gene causes it, and thus eventually prevent that change in others. They might even find that there's some underlying environmental cause that triggers said gene expression, in which case it could be eliminated entirely through early enough testing and treatment. Either way, identifying it early enough is key to being able to find the root cause.

Second, the earlier autism is identified in a kid, the more likely that behavioral therapy will produce a more functional adult.

Re:Labeling

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't see this being of any benefit in the long term.

One of the benefits is early detection and early treatment. Enlightened adults that see these kids unsuccessfully coping in mainstream classrooms realize that they don't need to "try harder".

Re:Labeling

[camperdave]

Proper sanitation has done more to prolong lives than anything medicine has done.

Re:Labeling

[couchslug]

"Proper sanitation has done more to prolong lives than anything medicine has done."

Hmm...might be some money in a cross between a car wash and a hugbox.

Re:Labeling

[blackraven14250]

Good thing proper sanitation came about because of advances in medicine, then.

Re:Labeling

[RichDiesal]

You clearly don't have or know anyone with an actual mental disorder. There is certainly harm done by false diagnosis/labeling, and some people certainly milk their diagnoses, but the majority of people with mental disorders find it somewhat of a relief when they discover that they have a condition that 1) is not their fault and 2) has treatment options.

Think of it this way - if you grew up, and throughout your elementary and even high school experience, you had skills and abilities that other people thought were bizarre, people always looked at you weird and you didn't know why, you had uncontrollable tics that other people just didn't, you were frustrated daily because you had a very difficult time controlling your own behaviors, and you constantly got in trouble because these behaviors were judged to be "bad."

Finding out "other people have this problem too, and here's what you can try to alleviate the symptoms" is important to help these people become "normal, productive members of society." Your assertion that diagnosis will "lead the majority of them to make excuses" is completely unfounded.

Re:Labeling

[pizzach]

Sir, it's unfortunate, but you've just been diagnosed as having a anger complex. You can get your medication on the way out from the hospital. :)

Re:Labeling

[germansausage]

How is not drinking disease contaminated water not based on medical science?

Re:Labeling

[cvd6262]

Also, right now, ASD clumps together symptoms even though they may have different etiologies. Having a biological test for a trait correlated with autism may help tease out the degree to which different conditions result in the same symptoms. When children test negative, but still exhibit ASD, we know there is another pathway to the condition that may be better served through different treatment.

This could be HUGE.

Re:Labeling

[RichDiesal]

Life expectancy has been going up at a pretty consistent rate in the United States since 1968.

For either medicine or sanitation to have made a substantial effect on life expectancy, we'd expect the timeline of advances in each to mirror advances in life expectancy (e.g. major medical breakthrough in 1973 matching a substantial increase in life expectancy in 1980). That clearly doesn't happen. Sanitation and medicine are both only a small piece of a much larger puzzle.

Re:Labeling

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no, it won't. Don't underestimate the power of a mentally ill parent. I _had_ a friend who's son had hearing problems. He could hear perfectly fine, but he had hearing problems and his life was going to be difficult, dammit!! He did become pretty good at sign language. Then, unfortunately he began to speak.

When the deafness fell through he was ADD. Then he had Aspergers syndrome. Now he's Autistic and in a "special" class. (Translation - stealing time that the instructor could be using on the actual Autistic kids.)

When the "next big thing" is discovered I'm sure the kid will have that as well.

Re:Labeling

[aliquis]

I don't see how this can be an accurate test, unless the bacteria is what causes it?

Do one have any idea what came first? The bacteria or the condition?

Observing and being able to label people generates income, hence it's done.

Re:Labeling

[hedwards]

Indeed, just in terms of determining who you're studying this could be huge. One of the reasons why psychologists have made so little difference is that it's almost impossible to definitively determine the actual illness. Autism, since it isn't mental illness is a bit easier in the sense that the criteria used are more specific and somewhat easier to use. Still not easy, as there is a reason for the ASD diagnosis coming into being, but things of this nature to clear things up greatly increase the utility of research being done.

Re:Labeling

[casings]

Thank you for proving my point in your first sentence. I will ignore your second paragraph, because it has to be the dumbest conclusion I have read today.

Re:Labeling

[aliquis]

But what are conditions and what are just humans being humans, with slightly different personalities and feelings?

The lung cancer you for sure do not want, but mentally people are different, diagnosed or otherwise.

Re:Labeling

[aliquis]

Ok, so you get the diagnose. Then what? ..

And if it wasn't seen as a condition but just as "you" and people helping you with whatever was harder for you what would the difference be?

Re:Labeling

[dave420]

Without being able to diagnose a disease ('labelling' the person) there is simply no way to find a cure for it. Easy methods of diagnosis means more will be known about the disease. That can only help the current and future sufferers. If we adopted your strange views on medicine, in the early 1980s medicine should have stopped even bothering to diagnose people with AIDS, as there was nothing they could do about it. Brilliant logic.

Re:Labeling

[aliquis]

.. suicide booths.

Re:Labeling

[pizzach]

You need a car analogy.

People are worried that Doctors are going to turn into Monro Muffler. You ask them for an oil change, then they tell you that you also need rear coil springs replaced, an alignment, a new alternator and battery, two new cables for my parking brake and a new type of bolt in the front. They will not let you slip by without offering to fix something else regardless of the condition of the vehicle.

From what I have seen of doctors, their judgments can be just as capricious as the mechanics at Monro Muffler. I did not appreciate having my bone cancer misdiagnosed as bursitis until I was literally unable to walk. (For some reason it still strings when they say it is good they caught it early.) Then of course there are the the hypochondriacs who will search out a doctor who will diagnose them with the disease they think they have.

*I have a step brother who is autistic* This kind of test would have been very nice. He is not extremely high functioning, but I believe that is because never had the work done when he was younger. Though with the upbringing of my mother, I was never very sociable either as well as a late talker. I do believe environment can have a dramatic effect on the degree of autism. I get the jibblies whenever I go back to my mother's place.

Re:Labeling

[Anonymous Coward]

/I have an autistic child, so I'm getting a kick....
//Now hand the keyboard back to your parents, let the grown ups talk.

Slashies? "...so I'm getting a kick?"

Get back to Fark, you imposter!

Re:Labeling

[The Clockwork Troll]

Consider that the test would benefit mostly toddlers or pre-school age children, who either don't manifest obvious symptoms of autism until later, or whose parents don't have the means or indication to have them evaluated until later (in some cases, as late as middle school), by which time the optimal window for intervention has passed.

If the test is specific enough, getting a confirmed diagnosis could enable the parents or school system to intervene with therapy designed to help their child recognize social cues, interact/negotiate socially with others, and deal with change/transitions. Even in high-functioning autistics (including Asperger's sufferers), these skills can go severely wanting, and if not addressed you may wind up with a child who is academically sound but who sits in the corner of the playground because they either aren't motivated by social norms or haven't the first idea (at an executive level) of how to connect their desire for social interaction with effective social interaction.

On the other hand, if the sensitivity of this test is only to the lowest-functioning forms of autism, than I worry that a lot of other children who could benefit from intervention will go undetected/unaided because "their pee is OK".

Re:Labeling

[Anonymous Coward]

You've never met a real autistic person, have you? It's only the very mildly autistic that become productive members of society. And most of those can only do a job that is extremely repetitive. For example, cutting pizzas would be a job that an mildly autistic person could do. And he would do it in exactly the same way every time. But don't introduce a new product that has a square or oval crust. That would be a major meltdown.

The moderately and severely autistic need parental or sibling care for life or they need to be institutionalized. There is no "productive member of society" option

If you meet someone with a productive job who claims to be autistic, they are probably lying.

Re:Labeling

[jisatsusha]

It isn't like you'll suddenly stop being autistic because you forgot you had it.

As someone with Asperger's, my experience has shown it to be much the opposite.

I have developed certain behaviours when it comes to dealing with people, but they still require me to be conscious of the situation. As soon as I stop doing so, I usually slip back into my old behaviours.

Re:Labeling

[roguegramma]

My guess as a non-expert is that the change in bacteria composition comes later.

Why? Because the brain play a big role in controlling/working with the immune system.

Re:Labeling

[budgenator]

I don't see how this can be an accurate test, unless the bacteria is what causes it?

I fail to see the logic in this, if a person has an variance in their internal eco-system which causes a variance in their intestinal flora, how is that different from have a variance in the internal flora cause a variance in their internal eco-system? Most emerging research is pointing to ASD, Autism Spectrum Disorders, to being inherited with several genetic and epigentics markers, and possibly being exacerbated by environmental influences, such as maternal Vitamin D deficiencies during gestation and it's also highly plausible that ASD have some impairment in the heavy metal elimination mechanisms. The relationship between ASD and gastro-intestinal disturbances have long been recognised; even that quack Wakefield was a gastro-enterologist.

Re:Labeling

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Autism is a label.
The condition is the set of symptoms that any individual happens to have.

The problem is that there's an insane range in how any individual will be affected. There's a lot of mental baggage associated with the Autism label. I should know - I've got it.

Re:Labeling

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone with bipolar disorder all I can say to you is "fuck you".

Diagnosis and treatment has allowed me to become a fully-functioning member of society rather than a burden on society and everyone around me. Absent medication and psychotherapy, I'm at the mercy of horrible mood swings and psychosis. My parents listened to a quack of a child psychologist who felt that diagnosing and "labelling" a 10-year old was more damaging than any disorder that might be present. The result of that was a slow decline into madness, and as an adult, I was too sick to seek treatment on my own, and not sick enough for involuntary commitment. I was finally diagnosed at 41 years old as a result of some circumstances that I don't care to share with someone like you. Do you have any idea what it's like to lose half your life to untreated mental illness?

Treatment probably saved my life - and there is no treatment without diagnosis and as you put it, "labelling". The suicide rates for persons with bipolar disorder are truly staggering - and those who don't take their own lives frequently have abbreviated lives due to irrational choices made as a result of the disorder.

"Trying harder" hardly factors into it when you're at the mercy of a very real and debilitating disorder.

Try a little empathy, fuckwit.

Re:Labeling

[uglyduckling]

I would strongly suspect that this research has been grossly misrepresented. There are many disorders of development, socialisation, behaviour etc., and very few are conclusively diagnosed from a urine test. I'll reserve judgement until I can see the paper, but since the aetiology of ASD is unknown I would be totally amazed if a simple urine test could diagnose it. I would expect you're more likely to get a relative risk increase that could eventually be developed into a screening test (i.e. a negative test would fairly conclusively rule out, but a positive test would lead to further tests, not a definitive diagnosis).

Re:Labeling

[insertwackynamehere]

And then one day a giant man informed me I was a wizard!

Re:Labeling

[Anonymous Coward]

Autism isn't a label, it's a condition. The western mentality to diagnose and treat conditions is why humans' life expectancies have increased.

Stop regurgitating shit you hear from bad late night comics and ignorant rednecks.

I would definitely argue late night comics and ignorant rednecks are far more likely to be kind to those with Autism, Asperger's and variations thereof and to properly apply the talents where it can be utilized by society than those of you who claim it is a condition to be fixed. The worst feasible thing for anyone within this spectrum is to be shifted out of it by those of you attempting to find a norm. Speaking as someone who has Asperger's at least and has known rednecks, late night comics - and you liberal sacks of shit who preach PC-based ideas without knowing the first thing about it.

Re:Labeling

[sjames]

Yeah, what's the point in giving out labels like paraplegic? We should just tell them to quit being so lazy and stand up like the rest of us!

Re:Labeling

[Akzo]

Your comparing psychology, a field known to have an exceptionally high confirmation bias to proper medical fields where diagnosis can be proven by more than "he's acting funny". Your ignorant if you think that people treat each other equally after being labeled as a loon.

Re:Labeling

[Anonymous Coward]

Contaminated water is intelligently designed.

Re:Labeling

[Ephemeriis]

Your comparing psychology, a field known to have an exceptionally high confirmation bias to proper medical fields where diagnosis can be proven by more than "he's acting funny".

Isn't that kind of the point of this test? Pee in a cup and we don't have to spend months documenting everything you do to determine if you're acting funny enough to be called autistic.

Your ignorant if you think that people treat each other equally after being labeled as a loon.

Yes, people are assholes, but it isn't limited to mental illness. All kinds of labels will get you treated differently...

"I'm gay"

"I'm a republican"

"I have aids"

Yes, some mental illness has a stigma attached to it. I am very well aware of that. But we aren't talking about hanging a sign around someone's neck. We're talking about their doctors performing a test to diagnose their condition, and then treating them appropriately.

Re:Labeling

[The_mad_linguist]

Ah, good old Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome.

Re:Labeling

[hasdikarlsam]

Germ theory is medical science. We didn't magically understand that there was such a thing as "contaminated water"; we had to learn that.

Re:Labeling

[Anonymous Coward]

We must not allow Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion, Communist infiltration, and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids!

What are they putting in our water that makes our pee different?

Programming test

[dmomo]

Just see if they know how to program. A positive result would indicate autism. Not sure if a negative result would indicate its absence, though.

Diet?

[Bazman]

Maybe these kids just aren't eating what other kids are eating.

Sadly even my university access doesnt extend to the Journal of Proteome Research without me stumping up $30 for two days of access, so I can't check the statistics. They had a sample of 39 (35M + 4F) autistic children, their 28 siblings (14M+14F), and 34 age-matched controls (17F+17M). Don't know why they didnt age- and sex-match the controls.

Pretty small sample, and if you look for enough different proteins in urine you might well find something different.

  NEEDS MOAR DATA! And an open access journal!

Re:Diet?

[casings]

You would think that the parents could tell if one sibling had a different diet than the other.

Re:Diet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unscientific as this is, a friend of mine has twins. One is autistic and one is definitely not. Raised in the same house, same parents, same food, and on and on.

I would think a single example of that would show that it cannot be diet alone.

Re:Diet?

[Pharmboy]

You would think that the parents could tell if one sibling had a different diet than the other.

Most people with two+ kids have kids with different diets. Most parents just give up and let the kids eat what they want, within reason. One kid has a bologna sandwich, the other, peanut butter. For dinner, one eats green beans and macaroni and cheese, the other eats fried chicken and green beans with a biscuit. Or maybe one eats another peanut butter sandwich. It isn't like the old days, when my mom (of 7 kids...) put the food on the table and you ate or went hungry.

In the old "nuclear family" model (pre 1980), families were slightly more likely to eat meals together. Half the parents I know never cook a meal, except in advance, and have containers ready for the microwave. Jobs, soccer, dance class, etc. has made it pretty hard to get everyone in the same house at the same time, except at night to sleep. What is *odd* nowadays is a family that all sits at the same table on a very regular basis.

Re:Diet?

[takowl]

Happily my access does cover it (link for anyone else who wants to try).

The statistics look...mediocre. There's enough there, I think, to make it an interesting avenue for research, but it's definitely not a 'urine test for autism' (to be fair, the paper doesn't claim that, the blog and the summary exaggerate it).

What differences there are are pretty minor, and only some of them are apparently significant between the autistic children and their siblings (as opposed to the unrelated controls). I'm not altogether happy that some of the controls are from a different location, although they have found that there is no significant difference between the two control subgroups, but it's still a bit dodgy. They're also using statistical methods I don't know ("Projection to latent structure discriminant analysis"). Finally, I don't see any evidence that they've done corrections for multiple tests, although some of their results are P < 0.001, which would probably withstand that.

All in all, it strikes me as a case of the Science News Cycle.

Disclaimer: I am a biologist, but in a very different field.

Re:Diet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people

Most parents

Or maybe

It isn't like the old days

slightly more likely

Half the parents I know

Autism is caused by diet, there can be no doubt about it now. Well, mostly no doubt.

Re:Diet?

[Charliemopps]

I certainly hope it works so every other mother I meet can stop telling me her child's autistic.

Re:Diet?

[hitmark]

a scapegoat for "i cant handle being a mom"?

Re:Diet?

[Joe Tie.]

I think I'd almost take that over hearing that their kid has "an old soul". Or the whole indigo child crap. And we let them get away with their stupidity, because nobody wants to be the dick who shit talks a beaming mom.

Well clearly...

[RussR42]

Clearly they simply test the urine to look for vaccines...

We all know about correlation and causation!

Re:Well clearly...

[coolgeek]

We all know about correlation and causation!

Apparently not. All discoveries of causation are prompted by some kind of correlation.

What about immigrant factor?

[sznupi]

After all, it seems (just google immigrant children autism) that autism is correlated with, what would appear to be at first sight, initial conditions of social exclusion, to some degree.

And now this. Not necessarily contradictory, oh no. Most interesting possibility, actually - after all, people from various regions have different gut flora. Would be fascinating to realise that it influences our behaviour to such a degree...

Re:What about immigrant factor?

[Latinhypercube]

What a load of crap. If gut flora and diet caused autism then whole continents would be with / without Autism.

Re:What about immigrant factor?

[gad_zuki!]

Yet when we seen twins and siblings with nearly the same diet we dont see autism. If there was a diet connection it would have been obvious long ago like scurvy and rickets is obvious.

Re:What about immigrant factor?

[sznupi]

Thins is - a) there is a correlation with children of immigrants (really, do a Google search, there's plenty of links to choose from; might explain US a bit, too - with it being to probably one of the largest extents a "country of immigrants"?)

And I'm not sure what you're trying to say exactly with twins and siblings. Anyway, add b) from this news about slightly different gut flora in many people with autism.
And we do know that people from various regions do have different ones, a difference which gets largely washed out after a generation or two. Seems possible it might be one of the factors...
Or just accidental correlation (immigrants?) which isn't a factor actually causing anything.

PS. Aren't chidlren born from caesarian section of much higher risk of autism? Their bacterial flora also develops in a different way than in those after natural delivery.

Fruit flies

[logjon]

Government money gets spent studying fruit flies. The nerve.

Urine test?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sir, we've got your urine test results, and it turns out that... ...urine sane!

Re:Urine test?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sir, we've got your urine test results, and it turns out that... ...urine sane!

I don't get it ... oh, repeat with an American accent, and it works :-)

Holy fucking shit

[DeadJesusRodeo]

I'm so glad I grew up before this profit-making mania to classify and treat every fucking kid who isn't "normal" and prescription drug parenting became status-quo. Wow does it suck to be a kid these days!

Seriously.

On the other hand, I can't wait for the lawsuits to fly from these over-treated chemically fucked kids when they grow up and discover Pfizer's penis up their ass. Almost makes me wish I'd become a lawyer instead.

Re:Holy fucking shit

[DeadJesusRodeo]

and to the pharmicom faggot who rated me troll - go fuck yourself with a electrical cord. Plugged in preferably you walking yeast infection. There - THAT'S a troll.

If it's light pink...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an Aspie

No link between gut bacteria and autism

[gruntled]

The whole concept is a farce. The "research" upon which this test was based in fraudulent. Sad.

http://www.scientificblogging.com/rugbyologist/festival_idiots_3_andrew_wakefield_vaccines_and_autism

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[icebike]

Seems your link has nothing at all to do with the story at hand.

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[arb phd slp]

See, this is why junk science is so damaging-- one fraud can send many other researchers down dead ends for years trying to build on or replicate those results. There are scarce resources to devote to research and autism is a real thing that needs to be addressed and so much time and money has been pissed* away chasing fake leads. This directly affects my colleagues in my lab who, instead of advancing the state of the art, are stuck trying to undo Wakefield's bullshit. And my poor students who are going to have to go out and treat kids with autism while explaining to confused parents why we aren't doing this-that-and-some-other thing that sounds good on the Internet, but has no evidence to back it.

*(I swear I didn't intend that to be a pun referencing TFA when I typed it, but I'm not changing it now.)

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[gruntled]

Look harder: The story is about a test that can identify autism based on urine, because autistic kids have different bacteria in their gut than non-autistic kids. The link is to a summary of the retraction of the entire theory that autistic kids have different bacteria in the gut than non-autistic kids; the scientist who submitted that paper fabricated his results (as the link states).

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[icebike]

Actually the link points to a story about discrediting an assertion that Mercury in vaccines causes autism.

No one had discredited actual measurements of differences in gut bacteria.

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[gruntled]

Wakefield's theory was not about mercury in vaccines (nor is the link I first posted); it was about vaccines somehow causing a gut infection, leading to symptoms like irritable bowel syndrome (see the previous article) which led directly to autism. It was all bunk. And it killed people.

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[coolgeek]

Killed people? Cite your source.

My nephew was cured after being diagnosed with autism....how, you may ask? By licensed doctors who applied legitimate biomedical treatment to deal with abnormal and anomalous readings found in blood and stool samples. It is really surprising to me that all you pro-pharma fools are so brainwashed, that in unison, you will call actual medical science (the process of identifying abnormal conditions in blood and stool and treating them) a fraud, yet you will call the doctor who renders a diagnosis of "autism" and recommend long term care as the only solution, using only casual observation as their diagnostic method, a "scientist".

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[icebike]

But Wakefield has NOTHING at all to do with the fact that there is measurable differences in gut Flora.

Nobody, certainly not the story linked, or Lancet, challenges that finding.

The only part discredited is that vaccines caused the gut infections.

Two TOTALLY different findings, totally unrelated except for the word Autism, which cause the short attention span crowd to assume its the same thing.

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[gruntled]

About one out of every three people who contract measles die.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[Abcd1234]

My nephew was cured after being diagnosed with autism...

Then he never had autism to begin with.

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[amorsen]

Maybe you should read the link you provided:

"As many as three of every 1,000 persons with measles will die in the U.S. In the developing world, the rate is much higher, with death occurring in about one of every 100 persons with measles."

0.3% isn't 1 out of every three.

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[arb phd slp]

Parents paranoid about the mercury poisoning their kids' systems who go on to have their kid subjected to chelation has killed kids.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9074208

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[Jeremi]

About one out of every three people who contract measles die.

That's actually a low estimate... it turns out that three out of every three people who contract measles die.

Re:No link between gut bacteria and autism

[budgenator]

Additionally, metabolic phenotype (metabotype) differences were observed between autistic and control children, which were associated with perturbations in the relative patterns of urinary mammalian-microbial cometabolites including dimethylamine, hippurate, and phenyacetylglutamine. These biochemical changes are consistent with some of the known abnormalities of gut microbiota found in autistic individuals and the associated gastrointestinal dysfunction and may be of value in monitoring the success of therapeutic interventions. Urinary Metabolic Phenotyping Differentiates Children with Autism from Their Unaffected Siblings and Age-Matched Controls

I'd think that when Journal of proteome Research, a peer reviewed journal publishes that, then the burden of proof is on you. And another point; even though Wakefield was an unscrupulous whore in bed with lawyers and published faked and or exaggerated data for financial gain without regard to his subject's health and welfare, he never recommended that parents not vaccinate their children, but that they be vacinated with single-dose vaccines without thimersol and that MMR be given as seperate vaccines over time rather than as a one time combination vaccine.

No, it doesn't "turn out"

[overshoot]

They took a bunch of samples and tested for correlation across the lot. They found some correlations -- which is exactly what they would find if everything was totally random, assuming you ran enough different comparisons.

Validation comes when they take a bunch of blind samples in another set of test subjects and, using this test, try to determine whether the subjects are autistic -- without knowing in advance. If, and only if, that kind of test turns up positive, will it even be worth further study.

Re:No, it doesn't "turn out"

[coolgeek]

Well, maybe. But there is one snag. The only diagnostic we have available at this time for autism is casual observation. There is really no science behind a diagnosis of autism.

Re:No, it doesn't "turn out"

[noidentity]

They took a bunch of samples and tested for correlation across the lot. They found some correlations -- which is exactly what they would find if everything was totally random, assuming you ran enough different comparisons.

You, sir, are clearly autistic. Correlations, whatever you're talking about, just listen to the experts. They know what's right. Oh, right, you can't, because you're autistic, have to think for yourself and not go along with the herd. Sorry, we're all going to visit a cliff, sounds fun. Wish you'd come with.

Re:No, it doesn't "turn out"

[jcaplan]

Its generally safe to assume that researchers and reviewers have thought of these things, too. So unless you read the article and find otherwise don't assume that the researchers have made this type of statistical gaffe.

I'm not a statistician, but they do specifically address your concern in the statistical part of the results section, where they say:

"Permutation tests were carried out on the pairwise area-normalized NMR data to statistically validate the results obtained from the O-PLS-DA analyses. Pair-wise comparison between the controls and autistic individuals showed statistical significance at a p < 0.0001 significance level (Figure 4) on all metabolites identified to be contributing to the differences between controls and autistics in the O-PLS-DA analyses (Figure 3). However, permutation tests carried out on the controls and siblings failed to find statistical significance in the urinary metabolite profiles (data not shown), which is reflective of the weak Q2 and R2 values generated from the O-PLS-DA model."

Since this article is behind a paywall, perhaps including the abstract and the statistics sections here might be useful for people to determine whether they think the stats are valid.

Urinary Metabolic Phenotyping Differentiates Children with Autism from Their Unaffected Siblings and Age-Matched Controls

Abstract
Autism is an early onset developmental disorder with a severe life-long impact on behavior and social functioning that has associated metabolic abnormalities. The urinary metabolic phenotypes of individuals (age range=3-9 years old) diagnosed with autism using the DSM-IV-TR criteria (n = 39; male = 35; female = 4), together with their nonautistic siblings (n = 28; male = 14; female = 14) and age-matched healthy volunteers (n = 34, male = 17; female = 17) have been characterized for the first time using 1H NMR spectroscopy and pattern recognition methods. Novel findings associated with alterations in nicotinic acid metabolism within autistic individuals showing increased urinary excretion of N-methyl-2-pyridone-5-carboxamide, N-methyl nicotinic acid, and N-methyl nicotinamide indicate a perturbation in the tryptophan-nicotinic acid metabolic pathway. Multivariate statistical analysis indicated urinary patterns of the free amino acids, glutamate and taurine were significantly different between groups with the autistic children showing higher levels of urinary taurine and a lower level of urinary glutamate, indicating perturbation in sulfur and amino acid metabolism in these children. Additionally, metabolic phenotype (metabotype) differences were observed between autistic and control children, which were associated with perturbations in the relative patterns of urinary mammalian-microbial cometabolites including dimethylamine, hippurate, and phenyacetylglutamine. These biochemical changes are consistent with some of the known abnormalities of gut microbiota found in autistic individuals and the associated gastrointestinal dysfunction and may be of value in monitoring the success of therapeutic interventions.

Multivariate Statistical Analysis of the NMR Spectral Data
To further explore the metabolic differences between the three groups of participants, multivariate statistical analyses were employed on the full resolution NMR data set consisting of 34 controls, 28 siblings and 39 autistic urine samples to extract useful metabolic information. PCA was carried out on UV-scaled data to identify any inherent differences within the data set. The resulting scores plot of PC1 versus PC2 (Figure 2A) showed no clear differences between the three groups, all pairwise combinations of PCs down to PC3 were examined, which showed no discrimination indicating that the major source of variation in the data was not related to autism, but was rather dominated by interperson variability. However, by utilizing group information in PLS-DA analysis, systematic differences could be observed between the three groups (Q2 = 15%; R2

Re:No, it doesn't "turn out"

[uglyduckling]

Rubbish. Diagnosis of autism (along with many other developmental disorders) is based on observation of behaviour including language skills and social interaction based on years of studying children with similar disorders. It's not in any sense "casual". Just because there isn't a biochemical test yet doesn't mean there is "no science". An ornithologist will identify some bird species by how they behave - would you call that "no science"?

Re:No, it doesn't "turn out"

[Joe Tie.]

Science, just science with unavoidably flawed methodology. Fine when it's all you've got, but at the same time it should be kept in mind that it's not an ideal situation. Any time when human subjectivity gets mixed in with the evaluation, you've got a huge sign that new tools need to be brought in. The whole reason we have science in the first place is because our species is inherently bad at evaluating a lot of things past a certain point. We're great at fuzzy, but abstractions beyond a certain point will always get messed up when applied to reality.

Too late.

[overshoot]

It would be a shame if geek-ness was TREATED to eliminate it.

First off, there are plenty of parents who do "treat" autism with shit like Lupron and chelation. It doesn't work, but it's still hell for the victims.

Secondly, a test gets us closer to a root cause and thus less credibility for the "vaccines cause autism" idiots like Andrew Wankfield and Jenny McCarthy -- who have managed to run vaccination rates down enough that measles and mumps are once again endemic in the UK and we're getting large outbreaks in the USA.

Finally, please understand that "geekishness" is at the very shallow end of the autistic spectrum -- at the other end, it's pretty much crippling.

Autistic Diet

[Guppy]

Maybe these kids just aren't eating what other kids are eating.

Exactly what I was thinking, it is well known that autistic persons tend to be notoriously picky about their diet. This is one of the main explanations for the findings of abnormal gut flora (and the contentious alternative that the casual link goes the other direction).

Which is not to say that the casual link between bacteria and autism necessarily only flows one way, it could be both. For instance, consider a hypothetical "basic autism" -> very picky eating -> abnormal gut flora -> additional problems that get lumped in with "autism symptoms". What I'm curious to know if anyone's tried a "Fecal Transplant" to normalize an autistic person's gut bacteria.

Re:Autistic Diet

[icebike]

So you guys didn't read TFA either?

Quote article:

Non-autistic children with autistic siblings had a different chemical fingerprint than those without any autistic siblings, and autistic children had a different chemical fingerprint than the other two groups.
end-quote.

So even sibs can be distinguished with this test. Presumably they would eat the same foods in the home.

Re:Autistic Diet

[bjourne]

Maybe these kids just aren't eating what other kids are eating. Exactly what I was thinking, it is well known that autistic persons tend to be notoriously picky about their diet. This is one of the main explanations for the findings of abnormal gut flora (and the contentious alternative that the casual link goes the other direction).

Autistic children aren't picky about their food in a uniform way. One child might not eat crackers because they make a crack sound when you bite on them. Another might not eat peas because they are green and green is icky a third not fish because of the smell and so on. So their pickiness about food can not explain the urine sample differences that the study measured.

Re:Autistic Diet

[Anonymous Coward]

Presumably they would eat the same foods in the home.

or not. It's easier to get normal kids to eat their veggies, fish or whatever, and even normal kids can be problematic.

Re:Autistic Diet

[icebike]

Well, then take it a step further.

You still have a measurable difference, a difference that can be used as a diagnostic tool, and a difference that can distinguish between a sibling of an autistic child and an unrelated unaffected child.

If it was ONLY diet, the differences would be found quickly, and long ago.

Re:Autistic Diet

[arb phd slp]

I had a client who wouldn't eat anything except orange foods. What was kindof funny was that he had a better diet than many kids without autism because he'd happily eat orange vegetables. His lunch would be something like one package of cheese crackers with peanut butter, a Sunkist soda, and a bag of carrots or a sliced-up orange bell pepper.
I've never seen two picky-eaters with autism with the same dietary preferences (except those packaged peanut-butter crackers; they consistently love those).

Re:Autistic Diet

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly what I was thinking, it is well known that autistic persons tend to be notoriously picky about their diet

Clarification: _some_ autistic persons are notoriously picky about their diet.

In my experience it seems to be about 50/50. That's hardly a scientific sample, but good enough to clarify that it's common but far from universal. My autistic son is probably less picky than most nine-year-olds. Sure there are a few things (mashed potatoes, oatmeal) that he doesn't like, but who isn't that true of? He also has his favorites like everyone else, but happily eats almost every type of fruit, vegetable, starch, meat, fish and dairy product out there. Lots of autistic kids are like him, but I also know of others that are very picky (will only eat 4-5 foods).

In the long term

[overshoot]

I can't see this being of any benefit in the long term.

No? Even though a biomarker gets us closer to a root cause?

Cause or Effect or Clue?

[icebike]

So WHY do Children with autism have a difference in gut bacteria?

Seems rather more important than just some minor trait you can take advantage of in a pee test.

Re:Cause or Effect or Clue?

[gruntled]

They don't, it turns out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/health/research/03lancet.html

Re:Cause or Effect or Clue?

[icebike]

Again, as mentioned upthread, this has nothing to do with a MEASURABLE difference in gut flora.

You are confusing two totally different stories.

Re:Cause or Effect or Clue?

[Guido von Guido]

They don't, it turns out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/health/research/03lancet.html

Right, the Lancet withdrew their 1998 paper linking autism to vaccines. What does that have to do with this article?

Re:Cause or Effect or Clue?

[arb phd slp]

That refers specifically to the link to vaccines, and Wakefield faked the intestinal data in his subjects, but there are still others who think that there is something to the gut symptom correlation.
Erikson et al (2005) http://www.springerlink.com/content/l13786n2151314t6/ looked at all the evidence and found lots of people looking at it, but the stuff that was published has a wide range in the level of scientific rigor.
If there is a correlation (and there really might be one), it's a whole lot more complicated than a simple cause-effect one.

Re:Cause or Effect or Clue?

[coolgeek]

If you are interested in the truth, the retraction statement from The Lancet characterized that study as incomplete, not completely wrong, and said that further inquiry in this area is needed.

Re:Cause or Effect or Clue?

[budgenator]

Your article just says that ASDs don't have a "chronic intestinal measles infection", not that their intestinal biota is the same as NTs.

So the early claims must be true then

[Anonymous Coward]

That the trigger for the condition is related to gastro-intestinal problems, like the ones that mercury based preservatives in some of the vaccines causes.
Hmm, interesting...

Re:So the early claims must be true then

[arb phd slp]

That the trigger for the condition is related to gastro-intestinal problems, like the ones that mercury based preservatives in some of the vaccines causes.
Hmm, interesting...

Wow... so many flaws... where to begin. And I feed this troll only because we've been not-feeding it for a decade and that has only led to kids dying of measles and other beaten diseases.

"trigger for the condition"

Nowhere in TFA do they say the GI problems are the trigger for the condition, only that there is a positive correlation that may be used as a clinical indicator.

like the ones that mercury based preservatives

Wholly, and thoroughly repudiated. With replication conducted ad nauseum all over the world with high levels of scientific rigor. Furthermore, the positive evidence that started this whole thing in the first place has been retracted because of undisclosed financial stakes in the outcome coupled with outright falsified data.

in some of the vaccines causes.

Thimerosol was removed from the vaccines that kids get a long time ago. Autism incidence did not change. Given the large n involved, we should have been able to see the effect in the population.
Thimerosol is still used in vaccines that adults get and there is no epidemic of intestinal flora changes in people who receive those vaccines.

HEY!

[n6kuy]

This no my pee!

Different gut bacteria? What the hell?

[Hurricane78]

If you took antibiotics, the first things you eat when it wears off, will rule your guts.

Imagine the poor child who now thinks it has autism, just because it ate a bad thing at a bad time.
Imagine the retarded parents and doctors, who will trust this test more, than they trust the actual facts. (If a doc says it, is must be true, right?

I smell a lot of false positives and negatives.

Re:Different gut bacteria? What the hell?

[coolgeek]

Imagine the retarded parents and doctors, who will trust this test more, than they trust the actual facts. (If a doc says it, is must be true, right?

I smell a lot of false positives and negatives.

You are aware that the only diagnostic method for "autism" at this time is casual observation of a failure to develop or loss of language and/or social skills, aren't you? I fail to see where there are any "facts", other than these observed symptoms, that are present using our current diagnostic methods.

Re:Different gut bacteria? What the hell?

[winwar]

"I fail to see where there are any "facts", other than these observed symptoms, that are present using our current diagnostic method."

And exactly what "facts" does the urine test provide? Exactly zero. Sure, it shows a correlation, but so what? What is the accuracy and specificity of the test? Almost certainly very poor. While an interesting idea for further research, actual use of this test would be a waste of resources.

"You are aware that the only diagnostic method for "autism" at this time is casual observation of a failure to develop or loss of language and/or social skills, aren't you?"

The diagnosis of autism is based on these observations. Also known as facts. Prior to the category called autism, the condition would have been lumped in with other developmental disabilities or not diagnosed. The types of bacteria in the gut is not part of the diagnosis.

Re:Different gut bacteria? What the hell?

[comp.sci]

Yeah! Somebody needs to stand up to these experts! In all seriousness though, the article only says that in the future this MIGHT lead to a way to diagnose autism. It's highly likely that by then they will have thought of your genius observation with eating different foods? Do you have ANY clue how medical tests are developed and controlled? Doctors are very well aware of false positives etc and do keep those in mind. The idea is that a test has overall statistical benefit to give a large degree of certainty to most. I know it's cool to debunk fake science but this is merely an experimental result, nobody ever claimed this is the holy grail of diagnosing autism.

Re:Different gut bacteria? What the hell?

[uglyduckling]

It's not casual observation, it's scientific methodical observation against clear diagnostic criteria. This is just the same for depression, mania, schizophrenia, autism, etc.. Casual observation might be what prompts a parent or other layperson to seek medical advice to consider the diagnosis, but it is not how the diagnosis is made.

NOPE. the kids don't eat the same

[bussdriver]

Autistic kids don't eat like the other kids. The other kids are normal, the autistic one needs to get the same old special stuff or they will not eat anything and become malnourished. We have 1 in the family. I think the study would need to feed the controls the same stuff as the autistic kids their are pair up with; I'm also curious if gender pairing matters at this age.

Re:NOPE. the kids don't eat the same

[icebike]

So, you didn't read TFA either?

The researchers reached their conclusions by using H NMR Spectroscopy to analyse the urine of three groups of children aged between 3 and 9: 39 children who had previously been diagnosed with autism, 28 non-autistic siblings of children with autism, and 34 children who did not have autism who did not have an autistic sibling.

They found that each of the three groups had a distinct chemical fingerprint. Non-autistic children with autistic siblings had a different chemical fingerprint than those without any autistic siblings, and autistic children had a different chemical fingerprint than the other two groups.

I give you that the autistic child might eat differently.

But their non autistic siblings?

Why can this test distinguish between non-autistic siblings and totally unrelated non-autistic individuals?

Genetic or Environmental?

Re:NOPE. the kids don't eat the same

[jrumney]

If one child is autistic, and particular about their food, then the rest of the family's diet changes to accomodate them.

Re:NOPE. the kids don't eat the same

[icebike]

Seems unlikely.

Complex variables

[bussdriver]

Science has a hard time with situations involving multiple variables; well, its a complexity problem not just of the experiments themselves but also the humans trying to grasp this stuff. There are limits and its not binary, there is some sort of curve involved as far as the human abilities aspect; the complexity of testing is in the realm of combinatorics and statistics.

Mercury in vaccines may be harmless; however, we have higher levels of exposure from everywhere else so it just adds a little to what is there already. It may not be worth fussing over but it is something we have control over personally. We can't personally get the coal plants pumping it into our water supplies to stop so easily. Where I live we are now down to a few fish per month from any lakes in the state to keep the mercury levels down to a "healthy" level.

I think we have an increase in autistic children; its not a diagnostic trend like aspergers - if you've seen these kids, they existed before under other labels; no slipping by the cracks like ADD or Aspergers. So people are understandably looking for changes that could cause a rise in it; its difficult to find an easy connection; we didn't accept smoking and lung cancer for a century and that one is "easy."

Re:Complex variables

[icebike]

Science has a hard time with situations involving multiple variables; well, its a complexity problem not just of the experiments themselves but also the humans trying to grasp this stuff. There are limits and its not binary, there is some sort of curve involved as far as the human abilities aspect; the complexity of testing is in the realm of combinatorics and statistics.

Multivariate analysis has come a long way. Statistical tests can weed out non-important variables in reasonable sized samples. Its not that hard.

If you've ever been involved in these sort of studies (even as subject) you know that the questions asked are exhaustive, often unrelated, and seemingly never ending.

They all get into the computer, and evaluated after the results are in to determine if they were significant.

Mercury in vaccines may be harmless; however,

I don't like where you are going with this phraseology. Unless you subscribe to the theory homeopathic medicine, you can't even put taking thimerosal out of vaccines and coal fired generation plants in the same paragraph.

So people are understandably looking for changes that could cause a rise in it; its difficult to find an easy connection; we didn't accept smoking and lung cancer for a century and that one is "easy."

But Lung cancer takes 3o to 40 years to appear, and billions were spent on bogus research and advertising trying to suppress the linkage between smoking and cancer. We accepted that linkage LONG before a century (it was only a contested issue for 25 to 35 years), and, it turns out, even the tobacco companies knew it was true.

Autism can be diagnosed in less than 4, and nobody is spending that kind of money fighting any particular theory.

But the problem is--

[Geoffrey.landis]

The problem with an objective test is that it's going to take away a lot of people's excuse for their behavior.

Re:But the problem is--

[winwar]

"The problem with an objective test is that it's going to take away a lot of people's excuse for their behavior."

And you think a urine test would be an objective test why exactly? Seriously?

There seems to be a common belief that a lab test is somehow more objective than using observational criteria. This would be very wrong. Many lab tests are very subjective. They may not have established values of normal, they may have ranges of normal and even then there are outliers. We routinely use tests that fail to serve their intended purpose (such as the psa test for prostate cancer).

I can only hope...

[Anonymous Coward]

that this can screen before scheduled vaccinations to make those anti-vax morons shut the hell up.

Sounds iffy...

[Vellmont]

There's a few things that sound a bit odd to my untrained eye.

What do gut bacteria have to do with urine? Why wouldn't this be more related to diet, metabolism, liver function, or possibly even neurotransmitter levels?

They used NMR spectroscopy to compare the urine samples. They weren't able to identify any specific chemical differences. I guess my question would be, how much does the NMR spectroscopy of urine vary between individuals? If I eat a lot of cheeseburgers, and my buddy is a vegetarian, is there going to be a huge difference in our urine profiles when analyzed with NMR? If the variance is large, that implies you'd need a large sample size to account for the "profile" of groups. These group sizes were relatively small at around 30-40.

So does anyone with knowledge of NMR want to chime in and provide some opinions? I've only the barest knowledge about it, which essentially amounts to it produces a frequency spectrum from your sample, and you try to use software to perform the analysis of the complex signal you get back and hopefully identify some structure. Is it really useful in providing a "chemical fingerprint" in something as potentially complicated as urine?

Re:Sounds iffy...

[comp.sci]

The idea behind their statistics is to compare two groups, group A with autism and group B without autism. This allows them to not worry about WHY there are difference but allows them to show WHERE these differences are found (in their NMR samples). By demonstrating that there is a very low likelihood that these differences in the two groups appeared by chance they have shown that there likely is a difference that can be shown. If they are correct, this can point other biologists to areas of interest to investigate.

Re:Sounds iffy...

[Vellmont]

I understand all that. What you're missing is that there's about a thousand details necessary to show the results are statistically significant. Beyond just statistics, there's also the methods used to arrive at the data sets in the first place, bias introduced in sample selection, etc.

Re:Sounds iffy...

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

There's a few things that sound a bit odd to my untrained eye. What do gut bacteria have to do with urine? Why wouldn't this be more related to diet, metabolism, liver function, or possibly even neurotransmitter levels?

Many things are absorbed in your gut and excreted by your kidneys - so it is plausible. But with that small a sample compared to the complexity of the signal I would have to see a lot more data, including predictive data where they get a bunch of unknowns, analyze them, and correctly assign the sample to one of their three groups.

If they can do that, then they might have a test.

Embrace the difference!

[louarnkoz]

There is strong documentation that personalities with mild form of autism can be not only functional, but brilliant. In fact, that may be the very reason why autism is still so frequent in the population. If the genes of autisms had no benefit whatsoever, natural selection would drive the condition out of the gene pool.

If the condition does have benefits, then is treatment the right approach? The typical goal of treatment is to "reduce you to normal," presumably so you don't bother other people. But from the society point of view, that's very counterproductive. Society at large will benefit from more geniuses.It would probably benefit even more if we learned to accomodate them!

Re:Embrace the difference!

[dullertap]

Do you really believe what you are saying? First of all, natural selection and human beings ain't what it used to be, bub. Do you think all the mental/physical disorders that we more or less ALLOW to exist are providing some sort of benefit to our race? Come on guy!

Re:Embrace the difference!

[Just Some Guy]

If the genes of clubfoot had no benefit whatsoever, natural selection would drive the condition out of the gene pool.

And yet they don't, and it hasn't.

I don't mean to equate autism with clubfoot, but at the same time you can't assert that "different" must mean "somehow better" simply because it continues to happen.

Re:Embrace the difference!

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI a lot of people who get diagnosed with aspergers actually have schizoid personality disorder. The two disorders are so similar that there is a lot of research about "aspergers" done on people with SPD, meaning the distinction between the two doesn't really exist.

If you ask any psychiatrist about the two disorders they say the difference is when someone gets diagnosed. If you get diagnosed as a child you have aspergers, as an adult, SPD.

The self-gratification one gets with being labeled as "special" in this sort of way is precisely the kind of thing someone with SPD wants to be labeled as.

Re:Embrace the difference!

[louarnkoz]

The disorders that make people disfunctional clearly don't provide benefits. But then, why do the gene persist in the genome? Probably because some combinations of the genes, maybe a milder cause of the disorder, do provide benefits.

original article

[cinnamon colbert]

Ref Urinary Metabolic Phenotyping Differentiates Children with Autism from Their Unaffected Siblings and Age-Matched Controls Ivan K. S. Yap, Manya Angley, Kirill A. Veselkov, Elaine Holmes, John C. Lindon and Jeremy K. Nicholson J. Proteome Res., 2010, 9 (6), pp 2996-3004 Publication Date (Web): March 25, 2010 (Article) DOI: 10.1021/pr901188e this article is behind a paywall, but if you have access to Amer Chem Soc, you can go to figure one of the paper, and you will see that the signal to noise is pretty low (remember,when doing statistics on this sort o data, you have a lot of variables - they are looking at hundreds , if not thousands of different chemcicals, so the possibility that soem are elevated is high) like most gee whiz biology stuff on /., this is a very, very, very prelimminary study - something like 80% + of studies like this don't get replicated in larger groups

Full Text

[sharky611aol.com]

Because government funded information belongs to the people (sorry, I'm too lazy to format it): Introduction Autism spectrum disorders (ASD) represent a series of related highly complex socio-psychological and neurodevelopmental problems with associated metabolic and gastrointestinal abnormalities of poorly defined etiology. ASD typically develop during the first 3 years of life and are characterized by a myriad of deficits in language/communication skills, social detachment as well as repetitive and stereotypic behaviors.(1, 2) The etiopathology of ASD is multifactorial and has been linked to genetic abnormalities(3, 4) and inborn errors of metabolism but there are many postulated, largely ill-defined, triggers including infectious agents and environmental toxins.(5) Autism has been shown to have strong associations with various metabolic abnormalities, immunological function and gastrointestinal disturbances, although their mechanistic significance is unknown.(5-8) In addition to the panel of neurodevelopmental problems associated with ASD, a range of gastrointestinal disorders have been reported, and recent studies have found that the condition is associated with abnormal gut microbiota.(9) There is also the possibility of previously unrecognized etiologic connections between microbiome disorder and childhood developmental problems, given the importance of the microbiome in mammalian metabolism, for example, bile acid metabolism.(10) Individuals with ASD are commonly exposed to repeated courses of multiple antibiotic therapies and this may contribute to the complex relationships between gastrointestinal dysbiosis and ASD by altering the composition or stability of their microbiota.(11-13) Abnormal sulfur metabolism has also been shown to typify individuals with ASD.(14) Waring et al. showed that individuals with autism have lower levels of plasma sulfate but considerably elevated levels of urinary sulfate, as compared to non-autistic individuals. These data suggest that autistic individuals may have impaired detoxification potential involving sulfation, as evidenced by their inability to sulfate the widely used drug acetaminophen.(14) The prevalence of autism has increased from 4 in 10000 children before 1980(2, 15) to 99 in 10000 in 2009 in the United Kingdom(15) and 53 in 10000 in 2006 in the United States(16) alone, but this varies regionally and with ethnicity, and also some geographically localized areas have much higher incidences of ASD.(17) However, it is not clear whether the global increase is due to higher prevalence of the disorder, and/or improved early detection/diagnosis. Current diagnosis of ASD is subjective and depends on observations of a cluster of behaviors and fulfillment of multiple criteria set out in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition (DSM-IV-TR)(18) by a trained clinician. At present, there are no reliable biochemical- or genetic-screening tests for the disorder, and in some cases, particularly in late onset autism, childhood development can switch from being normal to showing a delay in acquisition of new skills, thus adding to the difficulty for diagnosing ASD. Thus, there is a pressing need for new diagnostic tools for ASD that are both sensitive and reliable, since early diagnosis can lead to timely interventions and optimized clinical management. Metabonomic approaches offer the possibility of measuring metabolic end points (metabolic profiles) that are determined by genetic and environmental factors.(19, 20) The application of high throughput metabolic profiling methods using high resolution analytical platforms (nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectroscopy and/or mass spectrometry (MS)) with subsequent multivariate statistical analyses now provides a well-established strategy for differential metabolic pathway profiling and disease diagnosis.(10, 20-22) Here we apply a metabolic profiling approach to capture the global biochemical signature of autistic individuals using NMR spectroscopy with multivariate statistical modeling to characterize indiv

Re:Full Text

[Anonymous Coward]

Buffer Overflow / Unreadable / Sorry \ Bye.

Re:Full Text

[Anonymous Coward]

(sorry, I'm too lazy to format it)

Uh, "formatting" in this case probably just meant putting <tt> or <ecode> tags around the text. 2 seconds tops... Probably quicker than it took you to copy and paste the text.

Re:Full Text

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate being a killjoy, but this is not "Government funded" research, and certainly the text of it are not covered in such a way as if it was done in the USA. The study was carried out by researchers from Imperial College London (UK) and the University of South Australia. It was funded by Cure Autism Now and a grant from the International Study of Macro-Micronutrients and Blood Pressure.

Re:Full Text

[Anonymous Coward]

sharky611aol.com, i present you my friend, '\n'.

plain simple!

[Anonymous Coward]

if the kind drink the goblet, you there have a retard !

Thank You

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank You, Casings. From both my wife and I, and all the parents of autistic children I know.

Our son is moderately autistic. We're lucky. He can dress himself, take himself to the bathroom, make himself understood on simple issues. He can, within limits, understand and receive affection. He can, within limits, communicate. When other children are beginning to think about high school, we're glad ours can tell us what he wants for dinner.

We're the lucky ones in the group. We know a lot of parents with children who will require round-the-clock lifetime care. Parents who look at us with aching jealousy and envy, even as they're ashamed of it.

When the public's perception of autism was Dustin Hoffman, people used to cut us a little slack and room. It was the one mercy we found in all of this.

Then Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh started in with their "Just beat the Autism out of them" campaign. The jackasses came crawling out of the woodwork, pitchforks in hand. Rush gave them the necessary cover and bottled courage they needed to begin their hoots and screeching. For their parts in increasing the suffering of mine and the families I know, the Devil is shoveling a little more coal into the furnace for Michael and Rush.

Thanks you, Casings. People like you make our lives just a tiny bit easier.

So will the petunias become withdrawn

[Perp Atuitie]

if I fertilize them with autistic pee?

Okay, here we go...

[mcneely.mike]

My son has autism... it is not a behavioural problem or something he will 'out-grow'. He is on a gluten free/casein free diet and is taking a de-yeasting concoction as well as maxi probiotics in order to help get his 'flora' correct.
The BEST thing we ever did was get him on the gfcf diet: he used to love kraft dinner... he used to love it and eat it over and over by regurgitating it and chewing it over again until his breath smelled like bile, his clothes smelled like bile, he smelled like bile. His behaviour was OFF THE WALL.
Now, he can sit and do work, be 'fairly' socially acceptable, and is nice to be around.
The diet/flora can have big impacts for autistic people.
If you want to make jokes, come live with my wife and i for a month and see what autism can be like:
1. get up at 4:30 - 5 a.m.
1. get up at 4:30 - 5 a.m.
1. get up at 4:30 - 5 a.m.
1. get up at 4:30 - 5 a.m.
2. put up with tantrums from a big 10 year old because he sees a building that looks like a public swim arena (but isn't)
3. put up with watching disney movies over and over and over and over and over and over because of an obsession
4. try not to join the divorce/autism statistics
5. tantrums over the smallest (unknown) reasons
6. be glad you missed the bile smelling boy, who flung bits of kraft dinner all over the house
7. i can go on if you'd like
9. unlearn how to count because your brain is fried
10. have almost nil for a personal life
11. i can go on if you'd like

so the next time you want to complain about the woman / man who says their child is autistic/has autism, SHUT THE F. UP.
Living with autism and hasn't put a gun to his head yet: the forced smile guy.

Re:Okay, here we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

He needs therapy, not some magic diet.

don't bet on it

[r00t]

a test gets us closer to a root cause and thus less credibility for the "vaccines cause autism" idiots

So here we have different gut bacteria, probably caused by and/or the cause of some difference in the way the gut lining works. It's already well known that gut lining disturbances can be autoimmune disease, and it's well known that vaccines can cause autoimmune disease.

Thus, credibility is not lessened. On the contrary, this may end up being a proven link.

Not that I'm saying there definitely is a link at all, but one has to be suspicious over the refusal to do the obvious double-blind study. (and before you say that the link-believers should fund a study, I'll point out that it's not in the typical family budget)

Yes but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but it turns out that if you miss the cup entirely you might be retarded.

Multifactorial

[Anonymous Coward]

Autism is multifactorial. As the the factors are independent, the urine test can't be a reliable indicator of all the factors. But it might help distinguish particular cases that may be more or less amenable to particular treatments than other cases.

No, it is not a disease

[Two99Point80]

Neurological conditions do not all result from diseases.

Re:No, it is not a disease

[Ephemeriis]

Neurological conditions do not all result from diseases.

Disease is basically just a malfunction of the body. It does not have to come from a virus or microbe. Is heart disease not a disease? What about diabetes? What about asthma?

Neurological conditions that impair your ability to function as a human being are diseases pretty much by definition.

A disease or medical condition is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions, associated with specific symptoms and signs. It may be caused by external factors, such as infectious disease, or it may be caused by internal dysfunctions, such as autoimmune diseases.

VERY preliminary report!

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

My son is autistic. From where does the information come that it can now be detected through urine? Is there a science magazine source?

It is preliminary research on a VERY small sample. Trawling through a complex chemical substance (the urine) with extremely sensitive analytical equipment and finding a few substances that appear to differentiate among the three groups (autistic children, siblings of autistic children, and non-autistic children) is easy.

The real test will come when they get samples of urine from children outside the test group and are asked to repeat the analysis and assign the children to the correct group. IF they can do that, they might be able to claim to have a test.

Re:VERY preliminary report!

[budgenator]

I think a problem they'll run into is Autism Spectrum Disorders are Dx'ed symptomatically, and it's very likely that multiple causes will produce the same symptoms and that the same cause will produce varied symptoms in other groups.

how autistic = tallest dwarf?

[spineboy]

at what point do we bother to call/diagnose people as having Autism/Aspergers? - Clearly up for debate, and the pendulum tends to swing one way, and then back another way.
In the end, Diagnosing someone with autism/Aspergers only does someone good, if it allows treatment that can improve their lives. Helicopter parents wanting a "diagnosis" on their poorly performing kid in school will eventually stop trying to label their kid as having this.

Re:how autistic = tallest dwarf?

[Anpheus]

It only does them good if it's an accurate diagnosis.

Vaccines do NOT cause autoimmune diseases

[spineboy]

ok please show me any scientific body of evidence that supports that vaccines cause autoimmune diseases.
I don't think you'll find any reputable sources. A vaccine is merely supplying your immune system with an antigen to provide immunity in the future. By your logic, any immune response, from anyting, might cause autoimmune diseases. You sound like you like Jenny McCarthys idiotic rantings.

This article backs up my point of view.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/3/653

Typically when people state "it is well known" about anything, it's that they have no citations for their point of view.

Re:Vaccines do NOT cause autoimmune diseases

[budgenator]

Not to mention that McCarthy's son more likely has Landau-Kleffner syndrome.

Re:Vaccines do NOT cause autoimmune diseases

[r00t]

A vaccine is merely supplying your immune system with an antigen to provide immunity in the future.

The body doesn't recognize an antigen with some flawless process. A crude and dangerous balancing act goes on. Many non-ancestors died to evolve the mostly-working mess we call our immune system.

By your logic, any immune response, from anyting, might cause autoimmune diseases.

Pretty much, yes. Nearly always you'll be fine. Depending on many things (your genome, your previous immune system exposure, simultaneous illness, bad luck...) you can get very serious problems.

You're playing with fire whenever you fuck with the immune system. Sometimes it's worthwhile. I'm not keen on taking risks where the benefits are mighty slim. I don't visit northern Nigeria, northern Pakistan, etc.

So you are the one to blame.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, if God gives you instructions to not feed him Noodles after midnight, did you follow those instructions in caring for your Gog or Magogwai? I have all this, and am thankful it gives me more energy. Processed foods and nervous-system agitators like vaccines will only throw you off.

If you want a more balanced child: Get a juicer and only let him drink a juice-mix of organic carrots and celery and apple and berries with a little spinach on the side. The body is more sensitive and the bad food quality is throwing it into these disorders. There is no disease, because it's the threshold of living that has been narrowed.

BTW, my hours are: 3am for an hour of aerobics, then go fishing and eat until 7am for more strength-building exercises, then go to work until 3pm, finish some house chores while eating and studying until 7pm when to sleep.

Re:So you are the one to blame.

[mcneely.mike]

So, you get 8 hours uninterrupted sleep. You get up and do aerobics because you WANT to, do things you WANT to do for your own enjoyment, then more exercising because you WANT to, then go to work like the rest of us, then do the kinds of things the rest of us have to do. You then go to sleep at 7pm because you have the luxury of being able to.
We are up at 4:30-5 because we HAVE to, to keep him safe (he has no self-security skills); we go to work, we eat, we go to sleep anywhere from 9 pm (if he goes to sleep then) to midnight (because we NEED some time to do the things we want to do).
Your self-wonderful life is full of WANT to: ours is full of HAVE to.
Get over yourself ANONYMOUS COWARD!

It's not a horrible life, but it can be VERY hard, and we have VERY little time for ourselves. Our son is wonderful, autism is hard.

Re:Negative

[TaoPhoenix]

I hope so.

I think that is one of the most slippery diagnoses because I think it has real Gattaca abuse potential.

Isn't the other article whining about how Dem Tubernets makes ya dumb? Watch those folks pass the urine test, then call "one of them" to fix their "Internet is broken" problem.

I'd rather that constellation just get reclassed more like "Low Self Monitor" like one set of consultants I heard about in college described. Those same people are your Anti-Groupthink safety valve. If they don't get shouted down, you'll call them fools for 330 days of the year until they save you 330 million + 10ish lives when your Space Shuttle has broken O rings.

Butthurt much? Givin away shots for free now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea, because US military are the one's that endured all the beta-testing of those shots. Remember that it isn't called a vaccine over-night. There are plenty of expendable testers in Army to test this on, and if it damages them then they get sent to the front to die honorably before the symptoms put them in diapers..

Want to be sterile? Food allergies? Possible sudden death in 5%, but somehow that 5% happens 50% of the time in local populations but not in the reports of the rest of the country?

Butthurt drug-dealer fag wants to feel like his education is usable.

even simpler piss test

[nycguy]

"Normal" kids piss in toilets; autistic kids piss in their pants or on the floor. Next.

Not yet...

[bussdriver]

Tobacco stalled more than just the 25+ years of pseudo debate; people were questioning it long before that but it didn't get anywhere until far later and then it had to be "debated" for decades.

We can't stop subsidizing coal or oil or even regulate the industries involved despite plenty of deaths and disasters before this one. YES I think somebody is pro-mercury and is active on it! Simply because we don't know does not mean it does not exist; hell, if they do their job well we don't hear for YEARS that they are funding misinformation.

I have PROOF: http://fishscam.com/ but I don't know the who or why behind it; its not being done for free by a nutcase.

I've been to lectures by scientists who were bashed down by industry before they ever got any traction; even having hecklers hired to smear them when speaking at public places! Mess with the wrong PR firm and things don't get off the ground. For example, raisins have pesticides INSIDE them and little is publicly known or done about it despite clear concrete proof (perhaps they are now fixing this before it gets real attention -now a decade later.) Just try to talk about how dumping sewage on farms is bad-- before all those e-coli outbreaks...actually, its still a problem! DDT was banned so then we imported the foods where it was legal...

The regulatory system is broken along with the health care "system" and the media sucks, I'm not inclined to believe much.

I only know that the vaccine thing was about having too much exposure too fast; the reasonable solution is to spread the things out over time to avoid such concerns. I've not heard of good backing for or against mercury and autism.

Well, current science has its limits and future science has more; until computers take over the thinking and even then there is a lot that can't be solved (BTW, some things can just be proven impossible to solve and others are impossible to prove impossible...)

New cure for autism

[flyingfsck]

Soooo, in the good old medical tradition, if you feed autistic children the right gut bacteria to fix the symptom, the autism will be cured?

Cripple

[gd2shoe]

That depends entirely on how you define "crippling". I'd much rather lose a leg than have autism.

Re:Cripple

[Volante3192]

Hence why I said that the word 'autism' needs to be quantified.

Getting a splinter in your calf and getting your kneecap smashed inside out with a tire iron are both "leg injuries."

I would consider 'imploded kneecap autism' crippling, but not 'splinter autism.'

Urine Tests?

[dogzdik]

Do my girlfriends golden showers count?

ChildhoodShots.Com and MaryTocco.Com

[Anonymous Coward]

CHILDHOODSHOTS.COM ...Phillip DeMio, MD toxicologist, who saw his own son regress into autism from vaccine toxicity. He has now dedicated his life to helping vaccine injured children recover from autism and other neurological health conditions. Even if you already started vaccinating your children, it is not too late.

MARYTOCCO.COM
About Mary...
        * Director of Vaccine Research and Education on the board of Michigan Opposing Mandatory Vaccines, since 1994
        * Spent 24 years managing and promoting a chiropractic clinic and studying natural health care.
        * I am an independent investigator of vaccines for last 29 years.
        * Founding member of the American Chiropractic Autism Board 2008 ...
They have 5 healthy unvaccinated children. Before having their first child 27 years ago, they had the opportunity to research childhood vaccines and made the decision to not vaccinate their children. She became actively involved in Michigan when a bill was introduced in Michigan, which threatened to remove the "Philosophical Exemption" to waive vaccines.