Slashdot Mirror
Women Dropping Out of IT
Women's eNews has an interesting look at women in tech, with numbers showing that women are bailing out of the IT field at a rapid pace. "Technology jobs are predicted to grow at a faster rate than all other jobs in the professional sector, up to 22% over the next decade, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Compensation is also good. In 2008, women in tech made an average salary of $70,370. ... But women's stake in that rosy outlook is questionable. For starters, men's pay during the same time period was $80,357. A study by the National Center for Women and Information Technology ... also finds that women are leaving computer careers in staggering numbers. 'Fifty-six percent of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers,' said Catherine Ashcraft, the senior research scientist who authored the report. In 2008, women held only 25% of all professional IT-related jobs, down from 36% in 1991, according to the group's report, 'Women in IT: The Facts.'"
They're smarter than the men.
Since the women leaving the IT field are bringing down the percentage of women in the IT field, of which there have been many stories on about on Slashdot saying this must increase, they're working against the raising of women in the IT field. Therefore, they must be sexist.
In 2008, women in tech made an average salary of $70,370...men's pay during the same time period was $80,357....
Fifty-six percent of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers
Could it possibly be that women drop out of these jobs 10-20 years into their careers to have children? Could this also explain the difference in "average" salary if their careers have a break or work shorter weeks?
The terms are being used interchangeably here. The bloom is off the rose on IT careers, certainly (in the US, at least), and not just for women. And the number/type of pure IT careers is imploding, I'm sure (once upon a time there were "webmasters" who were counted as IT guys). But capital "T" Technology as a whole? The highly technical careers that use computers and software as tools? I'm not convinced.
Fewer woman programmers and server room jockeys, OK. But fewer woman technology workers and technicians? Not so sure. Sounds like stats being massaged to prove a point for somebody...
Besides there is a GREAT reason why the women make 70k while the men make 80k. Men don't take maternity leave and men don't take sick leave because their kids have the sniffles. Add up the costs for all the extra leave women take and all the work that they don't get done when on leave and it can easily explain the pay difference. No discussion about the gender difference of pay rates is honest without considering things like maternity leave. I really don't care if that offends anyone, it is simply fact and if the truth offends you then you have problems you cannot blame on me.
By "aspy losers" do you refer to Asperger's syndrome? I haven't seen very much of this in IT. I don't think that everyone who lacks social skills has some kind of medical disease and even if I did, I am not qualified to diagnose it as I am not a doctor. It may be a lot more common among programmers than among sysadmins and front-line support folks who must deal with others on a regular basis.
I will say I am rather skilled in IT myself yet do not work in the field. My friends have asked me why, as though they picture some big-time salary and prestige like what any other profession requiring that much specialized knowledge would receive. I explained to them it is nothing like that, you are treated more like the janitor of the computer systems and are likely to be the whipping boy when things beyond your control go wrong. Example, the execs want to purchase a system but you advise against it because that system is known for frequent crashes. They purchase it anyway and now it's your fault that they have problems when they went against your advice. All authority structures are full of this kind of blatant hypocrisy. What's different about IT is that you are likely to get the blame no matter what, possibly because you are seen as an expense and not as a bread-winner like the sales team.
because of the way we are treated in general.
Men talk over us or around us.
If I'm speaking most men will just interrupt and talk right over as if I'm not even in the room.
And if I'm competent, which I am, I'm seen as a threat and treated as "the enemy"..
The pay is lower and we have to put more nonsense than we should.
Bottom line: we are treated with disrespect and disdain. In general. It's the old "Women should be seen but not heard" problem.
I dropped out of the IT world a few years ago because of the afore mentioned reasons.
I have never met an IT person nor worked in a place of IT where I can honestly say we have ever put down a woman that works in the field. But keep in mind, there is a difference here. Something so many women seem to forget.
IT nerds don't have to give you respect *because you're a woman*.
IT nerds give respect *when you know what you're doing*.
This is a key difference, because we (used to) have a ton of women in our company in IT that commanded a lot of respect. These smart, knowledgeable, and powerful women left the job not because of the men, but because of the pressures of the job (our DBA left because she was having to get up at 12AM to do database maintenance stuff because of a contracted developer we had).
You're absolutely right, but take it a step further: Even without women, why do we put up with bullshit pseudo-macho alpha geek behaviour? It's not like it's any benefit to getting the job done, and it smacks of the same sort of delusions that young lawyers and young stock brokers fall prey to, the "go hard or go home" school of working yourself to death for your boss's sake.
Well, actually, I don't. Nearing my 40th birthday, my consultancy is screaming along, and dealing with other IT guys in their late 30s, I find we're all quite mature and professional, and don't behave in ways that women would find offputting, usually because we have wives and often daughters that remind us that keyboard commandos aren't the only or best people in the world.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Next time, RTFA. The figure is specifically adjusted for "comparable experience", just to factor out time off for maternity leave and childcare. Paying women less for comparable experience is pure sexism.
But there's a nice unexamined assumption in your post: Why the fuck aren't the men taking parental leave or caring for the children?
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
I have. From a male manager at one job - just out of the army - thought every single female manager didn't know what the hell they were doing.
At another job as a sysadmin, pretty much the entire male help desk was against the lone, new-hire female because she assumed people calling for help actually knew what it was they were calling about, or at least treated them that way.
And yet at another job, my mostly 20-something male co-workers thinking a new female sysadmin was hot and not much else.
Maybe you just haven't worked in enough bay area places yet (Well, that last one was in Chicago).
Funnily enough, I'm just reading super-freakonimcs and the authors mentioned a few things about the general male-female wage gap, which confirmed things in my personal experience.
All the research done shows women are are more likely to leave the workforce earlier than men or downshift in thier careers. Even the summary says that.
Basically, most of the factors that affect the pay gap are things done by choice.
On a personal level even a small amount observation will show that most women don't make as much money as men becuase they really don't want to.
When any of my male acquaintances are looking for a job thier first question is always "How can I get a job that pays more money."
With my female acquaintances when they are looking for a job the first comment is almost always "I want to know if i will like it there."
Men value money more on average while women value work environment and quality. Men are more likely to ask for a raise than women. And men are more likely to quit becuase they didn't get the raise while women are more likely to quit becuase they don't like the environment.
All this naturally leads to the conclusion that men will make more money than women but women will enjoy thier jobs more than men.
Can any of you say this isn't true in your own personal experience?
Quantum Physics a.k.a. sub-molecular statistics
It's men who are dumb enough to tolerate the aspy-programmer types, the sneering arrogant IT guys, the mailing lists full of flaming personal attacks leveled by closet bullies empowered by semi-anonymity, the phallic-compensating gadget consumerists, constantly "helpful" types who manage to insult while trying to rescue, and the sexually inept who use pinup wallpaper and leer at any woman in eyeshot. Membership in (or at least tolerance of) a repellant boys' club is an almost-mandatory feature of our industry.
In a 20 year career as a software developer:
1. I haven't met any programmers suffering from Asperger's Syndrom (I assume this is what "aspy" means, correct me if I'm wrong)
2. I haven't known any "sneering arrogant IT guys". The IT guys I've met have been normal, helpful human beings.
3. I have seen some harsh emails, but not often and nothing like the venom you describe
4. I can't recall any "phallic compensation gadget consumerists", but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough...
5. I haven't met any "constantly helpful types who insult while trying to rescue"
6. I have seen some teenage male type usage of naked women pictures, but that's been quite rare. Do you think that teenage male types only exist in the tech industry?
Do you think that "boys clubs" are more prevalent in the tech industry than other industries? The problems that you cite probably exist in most companies to one degree or another.
That's just the lie they repeat for our benefit, it doesn't matter to doctors if you live or die (malpractice insurance), and they don't care (not emotionally invested) because they couldn't do the job if they cared
1. I recently taught an upper-level undergraduate math course with an exceptionally bright female math major and an above-average male math major. For a while, they both did less work than they ought to have (and knew it -- they both had advanced Senioritis); but in the end, the male kicked in to a higher gear and earned a high B. The female did some triage just before the end and earned a low B. This, and similar situations, has made me wonder if females by-and-large react differently to work-related stress than males, i.e., the male will allow the pressure to motivate him, while the female will attempt to escape. If this is true (and I freely admit it may not be), the opposite may occur domestically. Personally, I'd rather spend a 12-hour day "at the office" than spend eight cooking, washing, cleaning, child wrangling, etc.
2. My wife worked at a company that was, indeed, sexist. There were multiple instances of this, although it was mostly irritating rather than soul-destroying. At one point when we were discussing whether she should move on, I asked what she wanted. "To be treated as one guy treats another", she replied. I responded, "Machiavelli wrote a book on how guys should treat each other 'in the workplace'. Is that really what you want?" That turned the lightbulb on. In the end, she made the correct call and left, but she was no longer suffering from the effects of wearing rose-tinted glasses. I would not be surprised (although, again, I could be flat out wrong about this) if one reason for what's being reported in TFA is that women just don't enjoy working in a social setting where male rules of interaction dominate. I can't say that I blame them at times. But the male perspective has its advantages -- I've worked with female professors who are unable to distinguish between students who should go forward and students who should be encouraged to change their major. This is especially an issue when a bad student is an elementary education major.
Has anyone else had similar experiences?
"But there's a nice unexamined assumption in your post: Why the fuck aren't the men taking parental leave or caring for the children?"
Well, some of us are. At my current position at least 3 top male engineers have taken time off to care for their wives and newborn children.
This is well regarded and considered a given for women, but there is still palpable prejudice against men doing the same.
In my particular case, I even got a direct ridiculing, sneering comment from a female co-worker,
along the lines of "you must be the next winner of the most dedicated father of the year award".
This kind of sexism against men, specially in highly technical disciplines goes often "unnoticed" by the same
journalists who relentlessly lament how "poorly" women fare in the workplace.
What are women?
People with names that end in .JPG.
Have gnu, will travel.
I just find it irrational and paradoxical that in an industry that's supposed to be based on logic, there's so much sexism.
I admit to bias - I have two daughters, and I don't want them discriminated against; I'm sure any parent wants the best for their kids.
But it is pervasive - to the point that even many women buy into it rather than rock the boat, or worse, because they actually believe it. Conditioned into having lower expectations, like other groups. I don't want that for my kids.
Of course it then extends outwards to the customers as well. You get some guys who have to "show they're boss" when they're buying stuff, just to impress their wife or girlfriend. Or they treat the receptionist like crap, or a non-person, because "they're just the receptionist."
Or just as bad, they'll assume, when dealing with a woman, that it's just a stepping-stone to dealing with "the man in charge".
Suppliers in general aren't so bad - they've learned that if you crap on the receptionist, your messages get mislaid (and many employers are now smart enough to look at your treatment of others as indicative of whether you're a "good fit". Treat the cleaning staff like crap, you won't be asked back to bid).
But there's still a long way to go ... for both sexes.
Recently a commenter suggested that I post about how I became a female misogynist. I've been thinking about what to post.
I could summarize my life story, which has been an object lesson - though far from the worst one I know of - in the disastrous effects of allowing women power in society, but then, whose hasn't? Most people of my generation and younger had mothers who were happy to be told that being a mother was something you could do in your spare time, between more important, "fulfilling" pursuits.
No one has been able to remain unaware that our schools, which are run almost entirely by women, have become hotbeds of violence and sexual assault in which little if any "learning" takes place, so I don't need to recount my personal saga of spending my childhood being beaten up and groped by boys while the teachers watched happily, giggling girlishly when one of the boys glanced her way. Just last night I came across this: Girls Accepting Sexual Assault At School As Fact Of Life. Consider this carefully: this is a realm where the authority figures are almost all female, and girls are completely unsafe from boys in it. This is precisely the opposite of what feminists keep claiming will happen if they're in charge. (Also take into account that many of these boys who terrorized me were denied a male authority figure at home by divorce. The overwhelming majority of violent criminals, welfare recipients, and substance abusers come from fatherless homes.)
Then there's the many female friends who turned on me for the most incredibly superficial reasons. No amount of generosity on my part could forestall this: gifts, shelter, financial support, a sympathetic ear, favors, hopping on a plane at a moment's notice (in October of 2001, no less) because I was needed, everything I could give did me no good when I had served my purpose and the female in question was bored with me. This is why divorce is so hard to get in civilized countries; women, by nature, will drop people when they're no longer amusing or useful. When they're in a chimpanzee troop or a primitive tribe, this is only sensible for keeping the species going, but for a civilization, it pretty much sucks. Women with a sense of loyalty exist, but they are very rare. But everyone who has entrusted a woman with affection has experienced this.
And of course, there's the women I've dated. Being a female misogynist is an uncomfortable position for a lesbian, but it's also damn near inescapable. When I first came out of the closet, I rented a movie called Bar Girls, about a bunch of constantly shifting, insanely neurotic lesbian romantic relationships. I thought it was impossibly over the top. Of course, at that point I'd only had one date. One year later, I had been in several relationships every bit as insane. I spent two years in the lesbian dating game, experiencing firsthand what the Sexual Revolution has done to people's ability to commit. The straight women who write Cosmo are always complaining that they can't get men to commit to marriage. The women I've dated couldn't handle commitments along the lines of "I'll meet you at eight". I dated one woman for two weeks. Not only was she unable to stay faithful for an entire fortnight, I also caught her in four separate lies - which means there must be more I didn't stick around long enough to find out about. Then there was the one who was sleeping with several other people and using drugs, both of which she lied about right up until the end. And the one who whined and whined about how her ex-girlfriend had battered her and cheated on her, and then dumped me when that same ex asked her to come back. The only lesbians I know who don't have a supply of similar horror stories are the ones who haven't dated yet. And I know that straight men get put through the exact same wringers.
I had dreamed of meeting Miss Right and settling down with her and raising a family, a proper loving family to compensate for the one I didn't have growing up. (This, by the way, is one of the most damaging effects of fe