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Women Dropping Out of IT
Women's eNews has an interesting look at women in tech, with numbers showing that women are bailing out of the IT field at a rapid pace. "Technology jobs are predicted to grow at a faster rate than all other jobs in the professional sector, up to 22% over the next decade, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Compensation is also good. In 2008, women in tech made an average salary of $70,370. ... But women's stake in that rosy outlook is questionable. For starters, men's pay during the same time period was $80,357. A study by the National Center for Women and Information Technology ... also finds that women are leaving computer careers in staggering numbers. 'Fifty-six percent of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers,' said Catherine Ashcraft, the senior research scientist who authored the report. In 2008, women held only 25% of all professional IT-related jobs, down from 36% in 1991, according to the group's report, 'Women in IT: The Facts.'"
They're smarter than the men.
Since the women leaving the IT field are bringing down the percentage of women in the IT field, of which there have been many stories on about on Slashdot saying this must increase, they're working against the raising of women in the IT field. Therefore, they must be sexist.
In 2008, women in tech made an average salary of $70,370...men's pay during the same time period was $80,357....
Fifty-six percent of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers
Could it possibly be that women drop out of these jobs 10-20 years into their careers to have children? Could this also explain the difference in "average" salary if their careers have a break or work shorter weeks?
The terms are being used interchangeably here. The bloom is off the rose on IT careers, certainly (in the US, at least), and not just for women. And the number/type of pure IT careers is imploding, I'm sure (once upon a time there were "webmasters" who were counted as IT guys). But capital "T" Technology as a whole? The highly technical careers that use computers and software as tools? I'm not convinced.
Fewer woman programmers and server room jockeys, OK. But fewer woman technology workers and technicians? Not so sure. Sounds like stats being massaged to prove a point for somebody...
Besides there is a GREAT reason why the women make 70k while the men make 80k. Men don't take maternity leave and men don't take sick leave because their kids have the sniffles. Add up the costs for all the extra leave women take and all the work that they don't get done when on leave and it can easily explain the pay difference. No discussion about the gender difference of pay rates is honest without considering things like maternity leave. I really don't care if that offends anyone, it is simply fact and if the truth offends you then you have problems you cannot blame on me.
By "aspy losers" do you refer to Asperger's syndrome? I haven't seen very much of this in IT. I don't think that everyone who lacks social skills has some kind of medical disease and even if I did, I am not qualified to diagnose it as I am not a doctor. It may be a lot more common among programmers than among sysadmins and front-line support folks who must deal with others on a regular basis.
I will say I am rather skilled in IT myself yet do not work in the field. My friends have asked me why, as though they picture some big-time salary and prestige like what any other profession requiring that much specialized knowledge would receive. I explained to them it is nothing like that, you are treated more like the janitor of the computer systems and are likely to be the whipping boy when things beyond your control go wrong. Example, the execs want to purchase a system but you advise against it because that system is known for frequent crashes. They purchase it anyway and now it's your fault that they have problems when they went against your advice. All authority structures are full of this kind of blatant hypocrisy. What's different about IT is that you are likely to get the blame no matter what, possibly because you are seen as an expense and not as a bread-winner like the sales team.
because of the way we are treated in general.
Men talk over us or around us.
If I'm speaking most men will just interrupt and talk right over as if I'm not even in the room.
And if I'm competent, which I am, I'm seen as a threat and treated as "the enemy"..
The pay is lower and we have to put more nonsense than we should.
Bottom line: we are treated with disrespect and disdain. In general. It's the old "Women should be seen but not heard" problem.
I dropped out of the IT world a few years ago because of the afore mentioned reasons.
A common theme with woman sysadmin that have left the field is that they are tired of the environment. Tired of the macho attitudes. Tired of the put-downs. Tired of having to prove that they are tough enough to be part of the group.
Not quite sexual harassment, but alpha geek males who have something to prove and not enough social skills.
And it is not that they can't compete in this environment. It is more that they get tired of same old sh*t over and over again. They move out of the field into a more supportive environment.
I wish us guys would get our heads out of our backsides. I enjoy working with women. They bring a gentler feel to the group. But I am sure I will get flamed saying that IT is not sexist, that there is no problem and women need to get a thicker skin. And that my friends is exactly the problem.
I never thought that I would live to see the Platonic ideal of horseshit, but here it is.
Getting the insulation off of cat 5? Seems like a narrow career.
Next time, RTFA. The figure is specifically adjusted for "comparable experience", just to factor out time off for maternity leave and childcare. Paying women less for comparable experience is pure sexism.
But there's a nice unexamined assumption in your post: Why the fuck aren't the men taking parental leave or caring for the children?
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Define "comparable experience". There is a vast difference in talent and ability between people who work in IT, and none of that can be reflected in any objective metrics.
What are women?
You can't handle the truth.
Funnily enough, I'm just reading super-freakonimcs and the authors mentioned a few things about the general male-female wage gap, which confirmed things in my personal experience.
All the research done shows women are are more likely to leave the workforce earlier than men or downshift in thier careers. Even the summary says that.
Basically, most of the factors that affect the pay gap are things done by choice.
On a personal level even a small amount observation will show that most women don't make as much money as men becuase they really don't want to.
When any of my male acquaintances are looking for a job thier first question is always "How can I get a job that pays more money."
With my female acquaintances when they are looking for a job the first comment is almost always "I want to know if i will like it there."
Men value money more on average while women value work environment and quality. Men are more likely to ask for a raise than women. And men are more likely to quit becuase they didn't get the raise while women are more likely to quit becuase they don't like the environment.
All this naturally leads to the conclusion that men will make more money than women but women will enjoy thier jobs more than men.
Can any of you say this isn't true in your own personal experience?
Quantum Physics a.k.a. sub-molecular statistics
It's men who are dumb enough to tolerate the aspy-programmer types, the sneering arrogant IT guys, the mailing lists full of flaming personal attacks leveled by closet bullies empowered by semi-anonymity, the phallic-compensating gadget consumerists, constantly "helpful" types who manage to insult while trying to rescue, and the sexually inept who use pinup wallpaper and leer at any woman in eyeshot. Membership in (or at least tolerance of) a repellant boys' club is an almost-mandatory feature of our industry.
In a 20 year career as a software developer:
1. I haven't met any programmers suffering from Asperger's Syndrom (I assume this is what "aspy" means, correct me if I'm wrong)
2. I haven't known any "sneering arrogant IT guys". The IT guys I've met have been normal, helpful human beings.
3. I have seen some harsh emails, but not often and nothing like the venom you describe
4. I can't recall any "phallic compensation gadget consumerists", but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough...
5. I haven't met any "constantly helpful types who insult while trying to rescue"
6. I have seen some teenage male type usage of naked women pictures, but that's been quite rare. Do you think that teenage male types only exist in the tech industry?
Do you think that "boys clubs" are more prevalent in the tech industry than other industries? The problems that you cite probably exist in most companies to one degree or another.
That's just the lie they repeat for our benefit, it doesn't matter to doctors if you live or die (malpractice insurance), and they don't care (not emotionally invested) because they couldn't do the job if they cared
The main reason for this might be that a lot of IT seem to be specializing their people on narrow professions. There's less need for women, who are excellent multitaskers.
And that isn't a sexist comment. I've seen quite a few women work 5-10 years in IT, get to about age 30 and then start having kids, after which point they leave to become a stay at home mom or scale back to part time hours. And of the women that do stay full time after having a few kids, they tend to really relegate computers to something they do no more than eight hours a day, and then that's it. Based on my observations (and this may be a stereotype, but I think it's true), the cause of this is that their husbands do WAY less of the childrearing work than the women. So they don't have the time to put in extra hours studying for certifications or trying to gte extra education. Obviously, that's not the case with every woman, but I've seen it happen a lot.
I think these factors are probably pretty good explanations for the statistics we all see. The lower pay on average is probably because the women are younger and less experienced on average as a work force (since a lot of women do leave to be moms instead of conituing on at about age 30), and they are more likely to work part time, which also reduces pay. And with less time available to study, they may be less likely to advance into the higher paying jobs, further increasing the salary gap. I don't think there's any blatant discrimination going on... I just think it's the reality of which gender is most affected by children during the mid-career period.
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
I hired at least 300 people into IT and technology related jobs over 3 decades. About 98% of the men negotiated a higher salary with me while the remaining 2% had taken another job as of when I made an offer. Absolutely none of the women I offered jobs to ever negotiated the salary. The vast majority took the job with the offered salary and the rest just said "no, thank you!".
When I've mentioned this in a group the women often say that its true, that they've rarely negotiated a salary while the men look at them like they have 14 heads.
1. I recently taught an upper-level undergraduate math course with an exceptionally bright female math major and an above-average male math major. For a while, they both did less work than they ought to have (and knew it -- they both had advanced Senioritis); but in the end, the male kicked in to a higher gear and earned a high B. The female did some triage just before the end and earned a low B. This, and similar situations, has made me wonder if females by-and-large react differently to work-related stress than males, i.e., the male will allow the pressure to motivate him, while the female will attempt to escape. If this is true (and I freely admit it may not be), the opposite may occur domestically. Personally, I'd rather spend a 12-hour day "at the office" than spend eight cooking, washing, cleaning, child wrangling, etc.
2. My wife worked at a company that was, indeed, sexist. There were multiple instances of this, although it was mostly irritating rather than soul-destroying. At one point when we were discussing whether she should move on, I asked what she wanted. "To be treated as one guy treats another", she replied. I responded, "Machiavelli wrote a book on how guys should treat each other 'in the workplace'. Is that really what you want?" That turned the lightbulb on. In the end, she made the correct call and left, but she was no longer suffering from the effects of wearing rose-tinted glasses. I would not be surprised (although, again, I could be flat out wrong about this) if one reason for what's being reported in TFA is that women just don't enjoy working in a social setting where male rules of interaction dominate. I can't say that I blame them at times. But the male perspective has its advantages -- I've worked with female professors who are unable to distinguish between students who should go forward and students who should be encouraged to change their major. This is especially an issue when a bad student is an elementary education major.
Has anyone else had similar experiences?
Women are so brilliant they invented the wheel, electricity and space rockets. Moreover, in modern times, unleashed, they founded companies like Youtube and Twitter. Men are just dump and give up easily, and then blame it on the culture of the company they work for.
Fifty-six percent of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers
At Google, you're old and gray at 40. [June 22]
It is something the geek has been known to give a positive spin:
3. Microsoft's senior leadership is middle-aging. Older folks with families and kids don't have the same priorities as younger employees -- and they're not as hungry workaholics.
The average Microsoft employee is 38 years old, according to the company's self-published corporate data. Only 15.9 percent of employees are under 30. By comparison, Google employees' average age is somewhere under 30. The company doesn't publicly release average age, presumably because of an age-discrimination lawsuit. According to the last publicly available data, less than 2 percent of Googlers were over 40. For Microsoft: 40.7 percent.
Most employees are young, fresh from college and have fewer family obligations and other distractions from work. The corporate culture encourages employees to work long hours and provides services that support the work ethic. Googlers can quickly advance up the management chain, and they can look forward to healthy compensation-for-results rewards.
The most innovative thinkers are at the top of the decision-making tree rather than being at the bottom (under much older managers). Five reasons why Microsoft can't compete (and Steve Ballmer isn't one of them) [June 22]
Woman's first step is take the classes perhaps in high school? Do the teachers stop women from doing that? Not likely. Next step might be post-secondary if you have the grades and money. Do the colleges/universities say "You're a woman you cant go in IT!" ? Not likely. Next step might be industry certifications. Does prometric/comptia/microsoft say "NO you're a woman you cant" ? Not likely. Still nothing in their way. Do employers discriminate? Not likely. So really there's nothing stopping them from going into IT. It must be either lack of interest or lack of incentives. Lack of interest is never going to be fixed. Incentives are possible; but doesnt mean you lose women over it... unless other fields are giving women incentives and that's where the women are going. Which is exactly what's happening. My city's university offers free tuition PLUS addition $1000 to women who take engineering. Why in the world would women turn that down?
You seem to ignore your eyes and instead have some fairy tale view of reality that we are all basically the same. Sorry, most real computer nerds tend to be men, and they have been since they were little kids.
You're seeing the result of the socialization women received 20+ years ago. Men now have a leg up technically, and they are paid more because of this, not because of evil sexism.
Maybe things will change in a few generations, but I doubt it. Have you seen Bratz toys or the TV shows they still show little girls?
they are better nerds
Bullshit. Why do you think they're better nerds?
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
"But there's a nice unexamined assumption in your post: Why the fuck aren't the men taking parental leave or caring for the children?"
Well, some of us are. At my current position at least 3 top male engineers have taken time off to care for their wives and newborn children.
This is well regarded and considered a given for women, but there is still palpable prejudice against men doing the same.
In my particular case, I even got a direct ridiculing, sneering comment from a female co-worker,
along the lines of "you must be the next winner of the most dedicated father of the year award".
This kind of sexism against men, specially in highly technical disciplines goes often "unnoticed" by the same
journalists who relentlessly lament how "poorly" women fare in the workplace.
But wait - Veterenarians are noticing something interesting: Males work very, very long hours - sometimes 7:00 AM to 9:00 PM and have a huge client base. Women, on the other hand, tend to work very short hours because they combine their careers with child-reasing. As a result, it can take 4-5 female to produce the same work as one male in the field. Also, inherently, salaries are much, much different.
So, rather than screaming sexist or gender inequality, let's look at how women have been able to have a life balance that is, possibly, better than men's.
The IT field is particularly nasty if you want to balance your home and work life. As so many of you know, tending a server farm or managing a transaction-intensive web site can mean hours and hours of work at any time of the day or night. It's not a wonder that women have seen the light about what amounts to a shit job (regardless of the pay).
*** Don't be dull.***
I just find it irrational and paradoxical that in an industry that's supposed to be based on logic, there's so much sexism.
I admit to bias - I have two daughters, and I don't want them discriminated against; I'm sure any parent wants the best for their kids.
But it is pervasive - to the point that even many women buy into it rather than rock the boat, or worse, because they actually believe it. Conditioned into having lower expectations, like other groups. I don't want that for my kids.
Of course it then extends outwards to the customers as well. You get some guys who have to "show they're boss" when they're buying stuff, just to impress their wife or girlfriend. Or they treat the receptionist like crap, or a non-person, because "they're just the receptionist."
Or just as bad, they'll assume, when dealing with a woman, that it's just a stepping-stone to dealing with "the man in charge".
Suppliers in general aren't so bad - they've learned that if you crap on the receptionist, your messages get mislaid (and many employers are now smart enough to look at your treatment of others as indicative of whether you're a "good fit". Treat the cleaning staff like crap, you won't be asked back to bid).
But there's still a long way to go ... for both sexes.
http://www.martynemko.com/articles/men-as-beasts-burden_id1228
Determining and remembering eye color is a thing only women do.
And it has nothing to do with an alleged obsession of tits or hips.
Just ask your male colleges what eye color their mothers have.
Post tenebras lux. Post fenestras tux.
Recently a commenter suggested that I post about how I became a female misogynist. I've been thinking about what to post.
I could summarize my life story, which has been an object lesson - though far from the worst one I know of - in the disastrous effects of allowing women power in society, but then, whose hasn't? Most people of my generation and younger had mothers who were happy to be told that being a mother was something you could do in your spare time, between more important, "fulfilling" pursuits.
No one has been able to remain unaware that our schools, which are run almost entirely by women, have become hotbeds of violence and sexual assault in which little if any "learning" takes place, so I don't need to recount my personal saga of spending my childhood being beaten up and groped by boys while the teachers watched happily, giggling girlishly when one of the boys glanced her way. Just last night I came across this: Girls Accepting Sexual Assault At School As Fact Of Life. Consider this carefully: this is a realm where the authority figures are almost all female, and girls are completely unsafe from boys in it. This is precisely the opposite of what feminists keep claiming will happen if they're in charge. (Also take into account that many of these boys who terrorized me were denied a male authority figure at home by divorce. The overwhelming majority of violent criminals, welfare recipients, and substance abusers come from fatherless homes.)
Then there's the many female friends who turned on me for the most incredibly superficial reasons. No amount of generosity on my part could forestall this: gifts, shelter, financial support, a sympathetic ear, favors, hopping on a plane at a moment's notice (in October of 2001, no less) because I was needed, everything I could give did me no good when I had served my purpose and the female in question was bored with me. This is why divorce is so hard to get in civilized countries; women, by nature, will drop people when they're no longer amusing or useful. When they're in a chimpanzee troop or a primitive tribe, this is only sensible for keeping the species going, but for a civilization, it pretty much sucks. Women with a sense of loyalty exist, but they are very rare. But everyone who has entrusted a woman with affection has experienced this.
And of course, there's the women I've dated. Being a female misogynist is an uncomfortable position for a lesbian, but it's also damn near inescapable. When I first came out of the closet, I rented a movie called Bar Girls, about a bunch of constantly shifting, insanely neurotic lesbian romantic relationships. I thought it was impossibly over the top. Of course, at that point I'd only had one date. One year later, I had been in several relationships every bit as insane. I spent two years in the lesbian dating game, experiencing firsthand what the Sexual Revolution has done to people's ability to commit. The straight women who write Cosmo are always complaining that they can't get men to commit to marriage. The women I've dated couldn't handle commitments along the lines of "I'll meet you at eight". I dated one woman for two weeks. Not only was she unable to stay faithful for an entire fortnight, I also caught her in four separate lies - which means there must be more I didn't stick around long enough to find out about. Then there was the one who was sleeping with several other people and using drugs, both of which she lied about right up until the end. And the one who whined and whined about how her ex-girlfriend had battered her and cheated on her, and then dumped me when that same ex asked her to come back. The only lesbians I know who don't have a supply of similar horror stories are the ones who haven't dated yet. And I know that straight men get put through the exact same wringers.
I had dreamed of meeting Miss Right and settling down with her and raising a family, a proper loving family to compensate for the one I didn't have growing up. (This, by the way, is one of the most damaging effects of fe
Proof that women ARE actually smarter than men.
IT jobs suck. I've been a systems and network administrator. It really, really sucks. The job is an endless list of problems that everybody expects you to solve instantly. Nobody realizes that the number of pieces of technology that you mastered outnumbers their marketing/managing/accounting skills 10:1 and are more complex. You're viewed as nothing but a cost; nobody attributes any profit to you. They always think their technology ideas are better than yours. You get labeled as anti-social and unfriendly because you wind up living isolated at night fixing trouble calls that woke you up. "Oh, you know about computers... Can you take a look at mine?" is acceptable but "Oh, you know accounting... can you do my taxes for me this year?" is not.
So yeah. Women are proving they're smarter than men by avoiding all this anguish and lack of appreciation.
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.