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Death Grip Tested On iPhone Competitors
adeelarshad82 writes "Given Steve Jobs' recent claims about 'Death Grip' being a common problem among smart phones, PCMag tested out six major iPhone competitors to see how they would react to the grip. The test included Motorola Droid X, T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide, Droid Incredible by HTC, BlackBerry Bold 9650, and the Samsung Captivate. The signal strength was measured in dBm, which typically ranges between -50 to -110 dBm (numbers closer to zero show better signal). Interestingly, the test results video showed mixed results. T-Mobile myTouch 3G and Samsung Captivate showed drastic changes, dropping down to -89 and -97 dBm respectively. On the other hand, while the signal strength dropped for HTC Droid Incredible, Motorola Droid X and Blackberry Bold, it wasn't as severe. Results of testing showed that not all phones reacted the same way to the typical death grip and required variations of it to bring about results."
I think that the Banana significantly outperformed the iPhone.
No, really, I mean it.
Have you heard about SoylentNews?
How many of them have bare metal antennas on the surface of the phone? No matter what weasel words Steve chooses, there is no excuse for this defect.
So what if other phones require a "death grip" to affect signal strength? After all, all phones are subject to the laws of physics; if you block the signal, there is nothing the phone can do about it.
How many more stories about this crap? The holy iPhone has a small defect. Guess what, it is not the biggest problem that the "form over function" philosophy has brought to the device. Those who value form will always buy the stupid device, its ability to complete calls (if you don't hold it the wrong way) is just an extra.
As for the "death grip". We were not talking about any death grips, that was never the issue and people don't usually hold their phone like that. The problem was with simply touching the device at the bottom corner and only the iPhone 4 has a problem (for "why" and "does it matter" see first paragraph of post).
And can we get on now? This is getting more annoying than dupes.
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
"[HTC Incredible] By using a death grip of both hands covering the phone we saw the results go from -57 to -64 dBm"
"[Droid X] can be difficult[...] We used two hands on this larger phone."
"[BlackBerry Bold] was a little more resistant [...] hold of it with two hands, we saw the signal strength go from -80 to -87 dBm."
Yeah, cause covering the entire phone with two hands is a perfectly normal way that people would ever use the phone. I bet if I shoved a smart phone up my a**, it would lose a lot of signal too...
One of the things I've wondered about is that Apple said the iPhone 4 does drop more calls than the 3GS. However, the iPhone 4 gets reception in locations the 3GS doesn't, so if iPhone 4 is dropping calls in situations where the 3GS wouldn't even have bars in the first place, it makes it look worse than it is.
They're seriously comparing phones that lose signal with a standard grip to phones where hold the phone with both hands deliberately trying to cover the antenna and pretend the result is somehow meaningful?
Wouldn't a sane signal comparison compare them using reasonably common grips? It's sorta stupid to say "When you deliberately cover both antennas with an awkward two hand grip it'll lose 10 dBm", everyone knows the antenna will lose signal if you cover it, the point is that the iPhone is so easy to cover by accident.
Because, in competition, that's all there is. A phone will do better or worse in the marketplace based on how it compares to its possible substitutes, not how good it is in any absolute sense. If the iPhone were unique in losing signal depending on grip, it would be a serious mark against it and indicate that Apple was particularly inept. Since many other phones lose signal depending on grip, it's not a competitive disadvantage, and it doesn't mark Apple as inept.
It's sort of like proving that a problem is NP-hard. You don't know that there isn't a nice efficient exact algorithm to solve it. You do know that a whole lot of intelligent people have put in a great deal of work over decades and not found one.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
What's this "completely lose all signal"? I haven't seen any source for this. What I've seen is that there is a large drop in sensitivity if you hold the phone in a certain manner. If you have any reference to a complete loss of signal, please post it. If not, please stop claiming there is such a loss.
I can lose connection out here, because AT&T has low signal strength out here. I can't where I live. That suggests to me a significant but not total drop in sensitivity.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
All of these phones CAN drop calls and lose service, it all depends on the starting signal strength. The iPhone 4 doesn't automatically lose service or drop calls either. In medium to strong signal areas it works fine EVEN touching the dreaded antenna spot. The only reason this is being discussed is Apple pointed out the external antenna.
I thought the iPhone4 would only lose all signal if you're already in a low signal area?
That is, for all these other phones that lost signal strength, if they were in a low signal area, they could very well lose all the signal as well?
I know seven people with iphone 4s. All seven of them have dropped calls, or lose signal completely if they hold the phone in their left hand. If they leave the phone on a table it works fine.
With seven people out of seven people have the exact problem I would say there is a problem. They can repeat the problem over and over again. It is a design flaw. Five out of the seven are lefties who normally hold the phone in their left hand. They are really annoyed.
You may have joined the dark side and control an entire evil empire, Mr. Jobs, but you are not a Sith Lord ... yet.
A phone in the hand has the DBm of two in the bush. iPhone there for iAm.
None of the phones cited were designed to be stuck in your bush.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
Since this article clearly shows others phone do not drop signals like the way iphone does, it does make apple inept, no matter how you want to spin it. Steve Jobs is a megalomaniac who wont accept the fact that his device was crap, and that his company lied showing more bars then what was real. But because of fanbois like you, he thrives.
Why is the standard response for anything anyone is caught doing is to reply that someone else is doing (insert catch word lie: more|also|worse|longer) than we have.
Imagine you've work with 10 people in one room for the last 3 years. At some point you say or do something that offends somebody else. From then on these people you work with take every little quirk you have and blow it out of proportion and endlessly crack jokes about it. Maybe one day somebody thinks you left the bathroom without washing your hands. Another day one of your neighbors is evicted and through some questionable rationale that was your evil doing, too. Every two weeks or so, a new thing comes up to heckle you about but nothing really sticks. One day, fatefully, you drop a pen. You bend over to pick it up and *Frrpbbtbt*, everybody hears you fart. Then, for the next 22 days, you sit there and listen to fart jokes and comments about how much you stink, how brown your undies are, and how everybody in the world pinches their nose when they around you.
Let's not sit here and pretend like the first words out of your mouth wouldn't be: "Yeah, right, like none of you ever fart."
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
There are countless videos on YouTube submitted by users demonstrating the same effect with non-iPhones, and Apple has posted their own antenna page with videos of competing phones losing signal. It seems to be an issue in low-signal areas and is a fact of life for all smartphones.
"No other phones have this problem"?
Riiiight. Then why do ALL of their manuals tell you NOT to hold it certain ways which decrease signal strength?
http://dontholditwrong.tumblr.com/
If Apple put the 'death grip' in their manual, would everyone be ok with that?
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
There must be huge variation from iPhone 4 to iPhone 4. I'm right handed and almost always hold my phone in my left hand. (I keep seeing stories that suggest that this problem affects lefties more, because they hold their phones with their left hands, but this seems backwards to me.)
I can't detect any problem with holding my phone in my left hand. I do see a substantial improvement in apparent coverage. Works reliably in my office, where my iPhone 3g was spotty at best. Voice works (but data sucks) in the basement of my office, where I had NO coverage before. I can only attribute this to the antenna redesign.
I think there must be some marginal phones out there, but it seems that there are a lot of iPhone 4s out there that are working well. And I think there's an aweful lot of hype around this problem. Maybe the lesson is that if you live by hype you can die by hype?
-Peter
Why haven't they taken the device back for a refund? I know if I purchased a phone that didn't work properly I'd just take it back. This is the best way to teach Apple a lesson about quality control, if they are selling defective phones/phones which don't work with AT&T/phones you don't like/phones you can't hold normally - they should pay for it with a huge return rate. Take your pick of the list of purported reasons, whatever it is, if it's serious enough to lead to lots of dropped calls, why bother with the phone?
Luckily, I bought one of the magical iPhone 4s which isn't affected by any problem with dropped calls (0 over the last month), so I won't be returning mine.
I have an iPhone 4 and I've been able to drop to no bars in the same spot I had 5 bars previously, so in my experience the "depends on how strong the original signal is" argument doesn't stand up. I can stand in the same spot (so the signal strength shouldn't be wildly different) and experience little to no signal loss with a clean dry hand touching the lower left corner, but if my hand is damp from perspiration or the natural build up of oil I experience a drop to zero bars in a matter of seconds. All this makes sense though, since the salty sweat/oil should be more conductive than a clean dry hand. I like the iPhone, but I don't care for the apologists who refuse to admit there is a problem anymore than I care for the company that won't admit there is an issue.
The only reason this is being discussed is Apple pointed out the external antenna.
Yes, but you didn't go all the way. It is being discussed because the design of the external antenna on iPhone4 is such where connecting the miniscule seam on the lower left side with a conductive material (e.g. your hand, keys, etc.) causes dramatic drop in the signal. Touch of a finger, while holding your phone in a perfectly normal way, can cause this.
This is not to be confused with the "death grip" shown in these videos where they are attempting to cover phones' internal antennas with both hands. In fact it's purely coincidental that the "death grip" that may or may not cover the internal antennas (depending on its location) is also connecting the 2 antennas on the iPhone4 with the bottom of your palm.
There is no single "death grip" issue shared between iPhone4 and other phones - this is just what PR Apple used to drag others into the discussion. There are 2 distinct problems:
1. cover internal antenna(s) to "lose" signal
2. touch iPhone in a lower left side to "lose" signal
Some people are saying (2) is way more common and annoying and some are saying it should never have been designed that way. That's why it's being discussed.
That's not to say that it hasn't been discussed enough already. But Apple dragging others into it prolonged it, IMO.
The problem with your analogy, is that farting is natural, unharmful, and cannot be helped.
Lying, cheating, and treating people like shit?
Even if you want to claim it's natural in a competitive, it sure as fuck is harmful and it sure as fuck can be stopped.
You mean like these videos?
Death grip on Droid X, EVO, Droid Incredible, Nexus One, Galaxy 1, G1, etc.
* Droid X: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-kFc..._with_droid_x/
* Samsung I9000 Galaxy S: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LROTHrTR92k
* HTC Evo Signal Attenuation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pj2YBYTbag
* Samsung Galaxy 1:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
* Samsung Galaxy 2:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPCQdYtPihg
* Droid Incredible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaDE941PzQk
* Droid Incredible (With Network Extender in Room): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpEQH...eature=related
* Nexus One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEIA_lMwqJA
* Nexus One vs. iPhone (start at 1:29): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvMoV4_C4aA
* Nexus One: http://posterous.com/getfile/files.p...n_-_iPhone.m4v
* Nexus One (after Google's update to correct): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2g5J4qPp54
* Nexus One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deCkjeHYT-g
* Android G1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CDaxhjUs9M
* "Major signal degradation when Nexus One is picked up" (N1 Thread on On this Problem): http://www.google.com/support/forum/...9184c33e&hl=en
Let's do what the article should've done and quantify it. The worst signal loss they could get from the other phones by death-gripping them is about -14 dB. They didn't provide figures for the iPhone 4, probably because Apple makes this hard to find out, but IIRC it's been measured at -24 dB. That means that if you death-grip the iPhone 4 your signal is reduced to about 1/200th of what it was, and if you do the same to the worst of the normal smartphones it's instead reduced to 1/20th.
Given that many of the phones in the links above drop upwards of 30 dBm, I'd have to say your full of shit, as 30 dBm in a mediocre signal area is certainly enough to cause a phone to drop a call, regardless of carrier, make, or model. If you started with -80 dBm, which is decently strong, you could drop to -110 and drop easily. These are not typical gorilla grips either, but just people holding the phone in their hand.
It happens on all phones, and to suddenly claim only Apple branded signal loss is 'evil' is a bit silly.
People, people, people. Its not about the death grip. Its not about general signal loss on all phones.
It is about the magnitude of signal loss. According to Anand's article, the iPhone 4 loses 20 dBm from holding it naturally with the antenna gap covered. That is 30% of the signal range. No other phone can acheive this signal loss, even with the death grip. Most phones 10 dBm or less, or better, even with a death grip. The magnitude of the iPhone 4's signal loss is 100% higher, or more, than all of its competitors when held naturally. This is abysmal, and makes it very hard for the user to predict whether his call is in danger or not. The bar change helps this a bit, but it doesn't take away the fact that a vanilla iPhone 4 has a signal handicap on all of its competitors due to shitty engineering.
Steve: "you have failed me for the last time"
Steve holds out hand
Fanboy: *hurk*
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Reading the article (I know actually reading the article before posting - what's fsck'in wrong with me?) it says some phones were affected by a similar "death grip" - so that's the same, isn't it?
Of course, this is really easy to reproduce because Apple put a line across the area that if covered affects the signal strength - other phones you have to kind of guess. That makes it really easy to reproduce the effect on the iPhone 4, and I suppose easy to avoid (don't cover that area). Other phones it's hard to reproduce, and also hard to avoid (unless you find the "drop spot" and put a marker on it - so you know where not to touch).
It is also true that some phones have far less of an issue (in the case of the Droid where two hands were required, it would be hard to see this as an actual problem as it's actually quite difficult to reproduce and is not likely to happen in practice). So clearly when Steve said this is a problem for the whole industry that wasn't the whole truth - it's an issue, but some phone seem to have it pretty well mitigated.
From what I understand for a lot of phones it isn't covering an side of the phone that manifests this effect; if you have significant contact with the rear of the phone it can cause it. This is quite common. Again, the exact location(s) vary and may mitigate it (like the Droid).
But this doesn't seem at all unique to the iPhone 4, but it isn't quite as "universal" as perhaps Apple would like us the think. It's just something we'd never thought about before.
And then he goes on showing EVERY PHONE does that.
I think you must be confused by something? They showed 3 different phone brand/OS combos that by holding in a certain way could loose substantial signal. Yes?
NO - they don't do THAT while holding it THAT WAY.
Parse error...care to restate?
So, yes, he lied and did not accept that iphone was the only phone which did something wrong.
I'm lost...what's the problem? Do you not agree that some phones can lose signal by being held certain ways? What's the lie?
It's not just smart phones. I had aNoxia 97xx that would drop calls if held a certain way. It always seemed obvious to me that it was attenuation.
Having said that,I thought Apple was nuts to expose the metal, and had presumed originally that it was covered in clear polymer. Every school kid radio fan knows what happens to the signal if you grab the antenna, right? So why would you make a phone with a naked antenna?
On the other hand I've played with a few 4s and the issue is IMO not nearly as severe as the tempest would imply, and while most people I know can reproduce the problem several indicate that the phone works in places where previous models didn't. If I were in the market I would still buy one. I would use a case as a matter of course anyway (put one on the 3gs immediately, have you seen what these things cost?). Not Apple's case, I swear Apple has no idea how to make a good case.
jim frost
jimf@frostbytes.com
Reading omprehension fail! Did I say no other phone drops bars AT ALL?
Only iphone loses signal so much as to drop calls.
Go on - try spinning it again.
This is absolute crap argument, death grip does not cause iPhone to drop calls, it is fully capable of dropping calls without it.
RelevantElephants: A Somatic WebComic...
In every phone, it's not "touch this spot and your call is gone", it's "cover the antenna and the signal goes down". Remember that water absorbs microwaves, so your hand (~60% water) will attenuate the signal. Even with the iPhone 4, if you don't touch the exact spot but cover all of the GSM/HSPA antenna, your signal will drop. In my old Nokia E62, I can get a ~15 dBm drop if I cover the whole top of the phone with my hand. Notice that most (non-touchscreen) phones have their antennas on the top because of this: you usually don't hold your phone there, so you won't attenuate the signal. Touchscreen phones are a different beast, because they're made to be used both in portrait and landscape modes; in landscape, you do touch the "top" of the phone. That means you need either a bigger antenna, or two antennas (like the Droid X). A bigger antenna on the bottom is used sometimes, because that's not where you usually hold the phone when in landscape mode. Problems with signal attenuation are very common (and more so with touch phones), but that's not the issue with the iPhone 4.
The issue with the iPhone 4 is that you can introduce a very high level of noise by bridging two separate antennas by touching the phone in a place where you would usually touch it. External antennas very close together are the problem. The noise added is what makes you drop calls, not the signal attenuation (you get so much noise that the phone can't find the signal). No other phones have this problem. Antenna design is one area where there are thousands of very smart people trying to get even the smallest improvements. You'd think someone would have thought about putting the antenna outside the phone on the past 10 years, if it was viable. Apple tried (and with some improvements, it could even become viable some day), and now they realize why nobody did it before.
Apple is trying to make their issue (the basic antenna design) look like the common issue (water absorbs microwaves). There's nothing you can do about signal attenuation, except keeping the antenna as far away from your hand as possible; but Apple could have designed the phone differently, and reduce the possibility to bridge the two antennas. The iPhone 4 problem is nothing like the problems other phones show, despite showing the same symptoms (lower call quality, possibility to drop calls, etc).