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Artificial Life Forms Evolve Basic Memory, Strategy

Calopteryx notes a New Scientist piece on how digital organisms in a computer world called Avida replicate, mutate, and have evolved a rudimentary form of memory. Another example of evolution in a simulation lab is provided by reader Csiko: "An evolutionary algorithm was used to derive a control strategy for simulated robot soccer players. The results are interesting — after a few hundred generations, the robots learn to defend, pass, and score — amazing considering that there was no trainer in the system; the self-organizing differentiated behavior of the players emerged solely out of the evolutionary process."

54 of 206 comments (clear)

  1. World Cup 2014 by 2phar · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wow look at that teamwork.. maybe those guys could represent England?

    1. Re:World Cup 2014 by captain_dope_pants · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, they appear to have some skill and cohesion as a team - ther no place for that in the England side :)

      --
      while (true != false) process_more_stupid_code();
    2. Re:World Cup 2014 by Sulphur · · Score: 3, Funny

      Can they snatch defeat from the jaws of Victory?

  2. Not really amazing... by blahplusplus · · Score: 4, Informative

    "amazing considering that there was no trainer in the system;"

    Not really, it's merely selecting patterns it is not aware of if it's patterns are "successful" or not. If you run a pattern generator long enough you can get all possible patterns within a finite possibility space.

    1. Re:Not really amazing... by bakuun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't get why this has been modded "funny". It's true. Just like monkeys tapping away at keyboards in order to generate the works of Shakespeare, a computer can generate player algorithm patterns that work well in this particular setting. The speed is just boosted by selectively choosing the ones that match whatever it is you want to get at the end.

    2. Re:Not really amazing... by TranceThrust · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The question of course is how large this search space is in comparison to the samples tried from it, to determine whether it really is amazing or not.

    3. Re:Not really amazing... by metageek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In evolution what is important is selection, as long as there is selection (based on fitness) and variability the system will adapt to the environment (the things that shape fitness). So there is a trainer, it is called selection.

      --
      metageek
    4. Re:Not really amazing... by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You do have to be a bit careful, though--- sometimes there is a hidden trainer in the system. In evolutionary algorithms, there are often a lot of parameters and data structures to tweak at the beginning, e.g., what kinds of crossover and mutation operators do you have, and what's your bit-string encoding? There are a whole lot of ways to slip in human domain knowledge of which things are important into the up-front engineering.

    5. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Saying there wasn't a trainer in the system is a bit of a misunderstanding really.

      Evolutionary algorithms always makes use of a fitness function to define which generations are to survive and evolve and which are to die off, this is the case in the presented setup as well. Without knowing the project i'd guess they let the "teams" play against each other and let the winners survive.

      If there wasn't a fitness function it wouldn't really be an evolutionary algorithm, evolution sorta implies "survival of the fittest" and all that you know :) The interesting part is observing the emergent behavior, in other words what we were not expecting to get out of the system. When the system doesn't have any knowledge of what a "defender" is, or what "passing the ball" means, it's interesting to see these well-known patterns evolve even when they are not specified, this is what matters to the AI researcher.

      Other implementations of evolutionary algorithms may be fun (http://rogeralsing.com/2008/12/07/genetic-programming-evolution-of-mona-lisa/) but are not showing emergent behavior because you are asking for a specific output through the fitness algorithm. That is the main difference.

    6. Re:Not really amazing... by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The fun thing is that these robots truly have a one-track mind. They do not learn -at all- within one generation, even if they have a brain that is relatively similar to ours. The brain is configured -entirely- at "birth" by the natural selection algorithm.

      And yet they display a few remarkably human traits, that seem to -but don't- indicate learning. Memory. Strategy. Having a strategy responding to the "enemy". Yet by most standards -they don't think during the game. This makes one wonder ... is the fact that humans have memory, adapt "somewhat", devise strategy really an indication of the level of thought we think humans have ?

      Makes one wonder just how one-track the human mind is. Everyone likes to always accuse everyone else of "not seeing the truth" about very nontrivial problems. Are people really "seeing the truth" or just repeating what they were programmed ?

      History of science definitely seems to agree with the "programmed" argument. Other histories ... even more. We are mindless automatons, we just like to think we aren't.

    7. Re:Not really amazing... by hvm2hvm · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Depends on what level of perspective you want to look at. If you look at simple tasks and abilities, yes, a human will learn and think (some more than others) over the course of his life. It is evident if you take for example twins that grow in different environments, they get to have different abilities and understanding of the world.

      OTOH if you widen your view and look at how humans interact between each other (i.e. society), how they think (technology, culture), and other things like that they don't really learn anything during their life. That's where evolution kicks in, people born in different generations have different ways of interacting and thinking. Some are behind their times while others are ahead which I see as a normal mutation, if you will, that can be a succesful one or a failing one. But even revolutionary people become conservatives after a certain age. That's why people die, that's how society evolves.

      Yes, it's not all black and white like I made it sound, some things in the first category are inate and some in the secondary can still be modified by experience but I think my point was properly made.

      --
      ics
    8. Re:Not really amazing... by ultranova · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you run a pattern generator long enough you can get all possible patterns within a finite possibility space.

      While true, this is also completely meaningless. For even trivial pattern spaces of, say, 512 bits, "long enough" would be far longer than the current age of the Universe.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    9. Re:Not really amazing... by mdda · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not really. While the literature makes a lot of fine distinctions between the various cross-over methods/rates etc., in reality it's pretty academic.

      Getting the genetic process going on a population is a really small amount of code, and there's a huge payoff to seeing it work for yourself (rather than using someone else's Black Box code).

      The real key is that 'mashing' two individuals together to create a 'child' (evolution) is a whole lot better than creating a child as a random variation of one of those individuals (hill climbing), which is in turn a whole lot better than simply creating new individuals at random (monkeys at keyboards).

      But you don't have to trust me. You should be able to code something up in an hour or two to see the effects. Don't worry about the details. This stuff really works.

    10. Re:Not really amazing... by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 2, Informative

      While true, this is also completely meaningless. For even trivial pattern spaces of, say, 512 bits, "long enough" would be far longer than the current age of the Universe.

      Exactly, see here for an illustration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_program

      --
      PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
    11. Re:Not really amazing... by Glonoinha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Interesting point. Perhaps the 'direction' comes from the sociological benefits and/or penalties for a given physical or mental trait, which could be driven internally by the system in a feedback loop.

      Lets take the most basic and easily understood example today - having a child.

      Does society fiscally reward or fiscally punish having a child? Both, actually, depending on where you are on the socioeconomic scale.
      If you are a young and extremely poor single woman, society fiscally rewards having a child. A woman with making minimum wage at a part time job can increase her cashflow by 50% and reduce her expenses by another 50% simply by having a baby (Section 8 housing assistance, WIC, food stamps, etc.)
      If you are an established and extremely wealthy single man, society fiscally punishes having a child. A successful paternity suit against a man grossing $120,000 a year in CA or MA ($120k isn't extremely wealthy there, but it's a start) can reduce his monthly available cash after taxes and fixed expenses (rent, car payment, insurance, etc) from $2000 / month to $0, possibly leaving him at a fiscal deficit each month until he downsizes his lifestyle, simply because the state will take $2000 per month from his paycheck and give it to the mother of the child.

      These are pretty radical examples, but I can see where about three generations of such disparate measures on both ends of the spectrum will have a pretty serious impact on the genetic and educational makeup of the following generations of that civilization. People today point to how the group living in poverty is growing rapidly and how the upper class is being narrowed into the hands of fewer and fewer, and never stop to wonder what we are doing to cause it to happen.

      Directed evolution doesn't always mean beneficial or better. And it definitely doesn't have to mean outside or divine influence.

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    12. Re:Not really amazing... by bussdriver · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem space is so vast when you get into the necessary details humans take for granted:
      Its so vast that it makes secure passwords look simplistic - this is far beyond brute forcing AES encryption. Even a simplified problem space is usually quite large in terms of possible combinations the only advantage AI work has is that there are no singular solutions but a large fuzzy set of solutions that are reasonably acceptable.

      Say a monkey typed 99% of Shakespeare but it was wrong only for 1% of it: next attempt being random, the monkey would likely have 0% Shakespeare! There would be no convergence towards the answer. Even bruteforcing encryption rules out past attempts to avoid repeating itself but a random search does not. Furthermore, say the problem space is random - so then a 99% Shakespeare is light years away from the 100% Shakespeare, then no matter what the process for convergence (ie evolution) it is not going to converge which effectively puts you into the same situation as a random search.

      The monkey typing thing is a silly way to state the obvious and sound good while doing so. "Its POSSIBLE but impractically time consuming" doesn't sound as good. These AI problems are nothing like monkey's typing - they learn and progress towards competency which is totally different! Again, they do this quite quickly since anything near the monkey approach wouldn't get there in our lifetimes (winning the lotto is more likely.)

      Just because it is mindbogglingly complex does not mean it is intelligent...or that it has something we'd normally think of as a "memory" either. Its possible our brains are just pattern matching machines - and since we can only understand the most simple of such things we'll never figure it out (but could build a brain which could figure it out eventually and perhaps our brains are just an extremely fuzzy non-linear pattern match for #42.)

    13. Re:Not really amazing... by vell0cet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think this is a place where people get distracted when it comes to evolution.

      Evolution IS directed. It's directed by Natural Selection. The direction it moves in is dictated by the environment and the species fitness to it. Because environments can change, directions also change.

      This is a very important distinction because some Intelligent Design proponents (including their top "actual" biologist Michael Behe) believe in Evolution, but not by Natural Selection. They believe in Evolution by Intelligent Design.

    14. Re:Not really amazing... by Rainulf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Speaking of twins, there are actually a lot of discoveries where twins get separated, lived and grew in a completely different environment but end up having the same traits such as habits, ways of thinking, etc.

      One of the most shocking findings is by Bouchard, Oskar and Jack ( http://www.psywww.com/intropsych/ch11_personality/bouchards_twin_research.html ):
      1. Was raised in extremely different cultures; Oskar raised as Catholic; Jack as a Jew.
      2. Both were wearing wire-rimmed glasses and mustaches.
      3. Both sported two-pocket shirts with epaulets
      4. They share idiosyncrasies galore.
      5. They like spicy foods and sweet liqueurs, are absentminded
      6. Have a habit of falling asleep in front of the television.
      7. Think it's funny to sneeze in a crowd of strangers.
      8. Flush the toilet before using it.
      9. Read magazines from back to front. and many many more

      Another shocking one (came from the same source) is the Jim Twins.
      1. James Lewis and James Springer were separated weeks after birth.
      2. Both married and divorced women named Linda.
      3. Both had second marriages with women named Betty.
      4. Both had police training and worked part-time with law enforcement agencies.
      5. Both had childhood pets named Toy.
      6. Their first-born sons were named James Alan Lewis and James Allan Springer.

      Which brings the issue of 'Nature vs Nurture'. Are we really pre-programmed?

    15. Re:Not really amazing... by ph43thon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well.. if you read their pdf (linked at the bottom of the blog post), you see that they literally turn the Fitness Function into a trainer that leads teams to the most proper ways to play (see pg5 Section "4.5 Fitness evaluation").

      The first step in the learning process is that the teams should spread out on the field and be relatively evenly distributed.

      Second was, move players closer to the ball.

      Third, kicking the ball was given value.

      Fourth, getting the ball closer to the opponents goal.

      Then finally, the most weight was given to scoring goals.

      So.. they have a great system here.. but it is mainly suggesting that these fitness guidelines eventually lead to behaviours that we understand as playing good defense or whatever.

      To be fair, I'm guessing that maybe Mr. Elmenreich was using the word "trainer" in some literal sense.. They didn't need some trainer for other parts of the system since that was built into the fitness evaluation step.

      What I want to know is: Did they put in a penalty for offsides?

    16. Re:Not really amazing... by hawk · · Score: 2, Funny

      >"amazing considering that there was no trainer in the system;"

      Execution of the less-skilled makes up for a lot of training . . .

  3. Re:God by starslab · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If evolution is the work of Gods, and we can refrain from wiping ourselves out in the next few generations, then we shall be as Gods... And if you follow the mythologies of old, we'll probably be just as stupid and make as many silly jealous mistakes as those very "human" Gods from back then...

  4. Hooligans by qpawn · · Score: 2, Funny

    The study also found that the artificial fans of the losing team started to riot on their own.

  5. What's the news? by synoniem · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When you program some evolutionary theory in your digital world and your digital world is developing some evolutionary lifeform that is news?

    1. Re:What's the news? by ChrisMounce · · Score: 2

      Someone mod parent up. This reminds me of the automated mathematician: if it's given rules that encourage discovering the Goldbach conjecture, and you spend enough time tuning it, then it's no surprise that it will eventually discover the Goldbach conjecture. Some debate whether AM actually discovered anything, or just found the stuff it was designed to discover (seeing as it stopped finding interesting conjectures after rediscovering all the known ones). But that's getting into philosophy.

    2. Re:What's the news? by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You don't have to go into philosophy to get these. Theoretical mathematics will help you out here.

      Suppose you had a "perfect" learner. One that tries every theoretically possible analytical technique. And then it manages to surprise you : it discovers existing mathematics, and perhaps a bit more, but nothing truly remarkable. That would simply be the result of a mathematical property of the "mathematical space" (the set of all possible mathematical knowledge, of, say all Godel-sentences) : that would simply mean that space is chaotic.

      There are already known properties of the total mathematical search space : for one, it's not necessarily consistent (and thus not necessarily correct). It is known to be large: there is more mathematics than there are atoms in the universe (but it remains an open question if the subset of correct mathematical theory is infinite. Theoretically it could even be the empty set - that mathematics is fundamentally flawed).

    3. Re:What's the news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Life in general is not much different. The environment/nature/the universe sets rules that encourage the creation of lifeforms, encourages them to replicate and improve their chance of survival. It's no surprise that life evolves and creatures develop memories, intelligence etc. The whole system is setup in a way that it is bound to happen.
      Whether evolution in nature or evolution on a computer, the underlying principles at work are similar.

      The main difference between nature and your goldbach conjecture example is imho that the complexity of the system 'nature' is much higher and the goal 'surving' is much broader and that this game in nature doesn't stop, since each step in evolution and some random factors constantly change the environment, in which the next generation is trying out new/modified patterns to survive.
      One could say it's all information endlessly playing with itself and that certain patterns emerge that stay over time is simply the consequence that can be explained with math.

    4. Re:What's the news? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      The subset of correct mathematical theory cannot be the empty set, because if it were empty, set theory (which clearly is part of mathematics) would be flawed, and therefore there wouldn't be a well defined notion of empty set, making the statement "the subset of correct mathematical theory is the empty set" meaningless. On the other hand, logic also is part of mathematics, and therefore my argument may not hold in that case.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  6. Too late to call this "evolutionary": by carlhaagen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A bit more than 15 years ago I saw a documentary on Discovery Channel featuring identical work being made by a brittish scientist / computer programmer. His software spawned simple "lifeforms" made up by basic 2D and 3D geometrical objects - cubes, cylinders, flat triangles etc., - that were then trying to evolve methods of how to most efficiently move and travel in the simulated environment they were put in - sometimes an airy environment with ground underneath them, and gravity, and sometimes an "ocean" in which the "lifeforms" swam. Minute after minute the "lifeforms" jiggered and bounced around like broken machinery, but slowly developing a method for moving and navigating that was the most efficient for their particular shape. He spawned caterpillar-like animals made up from chains of cubes, that slowly learned how to wriggle and crawl just like catterpillars and snakes do. He spawned randomized "freaks" that learned that sometimes managed to learn how to walk with their disfiguring, and sometimes learning that the only way was to throw some bodypart around to pull themselves forward. He spawned biped animals that slowly learned how to jump to move forward, an triped animals that learned how to skip from one leg to the other, to the third. He spawned lifeforms in a watery environment that learned how to rhythmically oscillate their bodyparts to create propulsion in order to swim forward and turn around. To me, this was just as impressive, if not more, than the featured story. As a curious detail to it all, the programmer developed his software in BlitzBasic, running on a heavily accelerated Amiga 1200.

    1. Re:Too late to call this "evolutionary": by whatajoke · · Score: 3, Informative

      Was it Karl Sims? Specifically this work

  7. Re:Oh... by Deus.1.01 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Its allright, if they ever gain sentience we can defeat them with Vuvselas.

    --
    My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
  8. Err... what's the news? by pyalot · · Score: 2

    We've been applying genetic algorithms with ANNs for quite a while now, quite often also making groups of them cooperate. yawn?

    1. Re:Err... what's the news? by lalena · · Score: 3, Informative

      I read the article wanting to know how the Avida developed memory. Basically, the programmer included an instruction that said "Do what you did last time" It is not evolution if the programmer hands them the ability. Also, when the goal stays in the same location every time, your robots can develop "memory" through the program itself. Ex: To go 2 up & 3 left -> Forward, Forward, Turn Left, Forward, Forward, Forward. No intelligence in the search pattern. This is simply memorizing the location of the goal. I would not call this memory.

      I am very interested in this subject and get excited every time Slashdot posts a new story in this topic, but I never see any real advances vs. what I was doing in school 20 years ago. This doesn't mean advances aren't being made, but I think they are now at the level where they don't make simple easy-read stories. Real robots (not simulated ones) getting form point A to B (not just wanting to go from A to B) over rough terrain without help (mars rovers) is much more complicated and a required advance to put this technology into a real application. MIT, NASA, National Labs always seem to have interesting projects going on.

      We celebrate these simple outdated advances in AI when we have hundreds of programs out there now capable of playing World of Warcraft without help simply to collect virtual gold to sell for cash.

      Another reason I hate these articles is that they don't include any real specifics. You could learn more reading Wikipeida on GA, GP, ANN... It was a video of a Koza project that got me really interested in this topic. Why don't people include something like this in the article. A couple of years ago, I decided to rewrite one of my old projects so that people could easily run it online - Ant Simulator. Watching the system quickly learn or solve a problem is much more satisfying than reading an article written by someone that doesn't actually understand the field.

    2. Re:Err... what's the news? by mdda · · Score: 2, Informative

      Memory for Genetic Programming was an interesting topic back in 1995 too... And the first Koza book was an inspiration.

      One way to test out 'memory' in an experimental was is to give the individuals some 'memory cells' (or internal preserved state) to work with, and then A/B test some of the good individuals vs. the same individuals with noise added to the memory cells. In that way, one can get a handle on whether/how they're really making use of the memory. Just like adding junk code into a buggy program to see what's actually getting executed.

      One of the problems for the Genetic Algorithm/Programming people is that this stuff simply *works too well*. It's difficult to test hypotheses because the evolutionary bit will simply 'work around' you own bad coding decisions : so often experimental results are 'this was slightly worse at first, but then something really interesting started to happen'. Designing a really clean experiment is difficult : these populations are devious...

  9. Addendum to first article is pretty good by somersault · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the late 1980s, ecologist Thomas Ray, who is now at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, got wind of Core Wars and saw its potential for studying evolution. He built Tierra, a computerised world populated by self-replicating programs that could make errors as they reproduced.

    When the cloned programs filled the memory space available to them, they began overwriting existing copies. Then things changed. The original program was 80 lines long, but after some time Ray saw a 79-line program appear, then a 78-line one. Gradually, to fit more copies in, the programs trimmed their own code, one line at a time. Then one emerged that was 45 lines long. It had eliminated its copy instruction, and replaced it with a shorter piece of code that allowed it to hijack the copying code of a longer program. Digital evolvers had arrived, and a virus was born.

    Avida is Tierra's rightful successor. Its environment can be made far more complex, it allows for more flexibility and more analysis, and - crucially - its organisms can't use each other's code. That makes them more life-like than the inhabitants of Tierra.

    Actually, organisms using each others code sounds way more like our world than ones that can't leech off each other. They already pointed out viruses, and plenty of species exist today that need other species to continue to survive.. in fact pretty much all animals need to eat other lifeforms because we can't draw energy from the sun directly.

    --
    which is totally what she said
    1. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Organisms can perfectly draw energy directly from the sun, and animals and humans still do (such as vitamin D production).

            As a physician I find your statement ludicrous. While there is a photochemical step in the synthesis of vitamin D it's hardly fair calling a double bond being split by a photon as "drawing energy" from the sun. For that matter you could say that the dimerization of thymine in DNA by sunlight (which produces the genetic damage observed when a person is exposed to UV radiation) is another way we "draw energy" from the sun.

            Humans do not produce ATP from sunlight. Period.

            And I would agree with OP - all organisms, including plants, are directly dependent on other organisms. Without nitrogen fixing bacteria to fix nitrogen for the plants, and without decomposing bacteria to release minerals again into the soil, even plants would not exist. While the organisms that are set up to harvest sunlight directly from photosynthesis are the biggest input into the food chain, they can't live without the rest of it, especially the lowly decomposers. We're now all totally dependent on one another.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by khallow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While there is a photochemical step in the synthesis of vitamin D it's hardly fair calling a double bond being split by a photon as "drawing energy" from the sun.

      Is the step endothermic or not? If it is endothermic, then the reaction is indeed drawing energy (no "scare quotes" needed) from the Sun. Given that UV radiation (which is the highest energy photons coming from solar radiation) is apparently needed as part of the process, this indicates to me that the critical step is highly endothermic.

    3. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Vitamin D is not an energy source, which is what you said here:

      Organisms can perfectly draw energy directly from the sun, and animals and humans still do (such as vitamine D production).

      That's total bullshit, and shows incredible ignorance about how the body works. Not one joule of energy an animal's body uses comes from the sun. We use the sun in vitamin D production because a proton can split the molecule, and it's cheaper to let the sun do it than to do it ourselves.

      So the sun does save a little energy, but it does not, in any way, shape, or form, produce energy for animals to use. The only way animals get energy from the sun is by eating plants, or eating animals that eat plans. It is an indirect transfer of energy, not a direct one.

      Reptiles don't get their energy from the sun. If left to bake out in the sand they would die in short order - they die when their fat reserves, obtained by consuming other animals, run out - not when the sun goes down. The sun adds absolutely nothing to their life-sustaining processes. Again, what it does is save energy by bringing the body up to to a good temperature to facilitate the body's chemical reactions - which are the source of all the energy reptiles use.

      In both cases, the sun is acting as a facilitator, it is not acting as a source of life-sustaining energy. Claiming the sun is a direct source of energy for reptiles is like claiming a room's ambient heat is a source of energy for a chemical reaction. It's stupid. The reaction may occur more easily at a given temperature, but you can't say it's adding energy to the reaction. The energy all animals use comes from disassembling the ATP molecule in the cells. It's a chemical process, the fuel for which comes from other animals or plants. Period.

      Note that plants also use ATP, but they create it from sugar generated via photosynthesis. Animals either get their sugar directly from plants, or they create it from the tissue of other animals. No photosynthesis involved.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    4. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by somersault · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Okay, how about we try a more objective approach since you can't judge this sensibly for yourself.. 1/3rd of your comments have been moderated down, often as "flamebait". I clicked on one of them and it starts with "shut up".

      Yeah, it's clearly me that "likes to argue" here *rolleyes* I'm not going to waste any more time trying to help you understand why people think you're a jerk.

      --
      which is totally what she said
  10. True fooball (soccer) behaviour by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Funny

    The robots need to become spoiled, overpaid millionaires, who refuse to train (France). Brag a lot (England) that their opponent is a bunch of "boys" (Germany), who are afraid of them. Then take a 4-1 shellacking from the "boys." And despite being the defending champions, and having a world class league in their country, bow out early. Because all of the players in their first class league are from South America (Italy), and the they have no good domestic players.

    Robots with vuvuzelas? No, thanks. My next nightmare.

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  11. Re:Religion? by sincewhen · · Score: 2, Funny

    Where were you during the World Cup?

    Soccer is a religion!

    --
    -- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
  12. AI or Bio? by sammysheep · · Score: 2

    I'm always confused if these discoveries are supposed to show that we'll someday have sentient robots that will rule the world a la every sci-fi for the past decade or if they are trying to model biological evolution in a meaningful way. Personally, I hope the sentient robot thing is NP-complete. :P

    For modeling biological evolution, any in silico organism model needs to incorporate the fact that most mutations are "nearly neutral" (some might say slightly deleterious) with respect to the scoring algorithm (selection) while the next largest group is deleterious, and only a small fraction are beneficial. Not every "bit" (base) in a genome has the same value, and certainly that value is related to its context. In the genome mutation can strike anywhere although some places may be lethal so it will never be expressed in a breeding organism. In AI there may be restrictions on the parameters that can change, but in the genome mutations can produce some pretty nasty defects. It's actually the relative badness of those defects which gives selection the power to weed out unfit individuals before the defect can become fixed. However, in biological evolution, defects can and do become fixed, either being linked with good traits or because there isn't sufficient selection power to get rid of them. Thus, after many many generations of "optimizing" the robots should also manifest situations where they do "stupid" things routinely because the "good" things they do are "linked" to the bad things they do on the coding level.

  13. Intelligent Design tag? by mangu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I would tag this as "Intelligent Design".

    This is a very simple demonstration that something can evolve from simple beginnings, if the creator was intelligent enough.

    A not-so-intelligent designer, OTOH, would probably prefer to create its beings in their final state because it takes more effort to create a system capable of evolution.

    1. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by mdda · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually no. The evolution mechanism is really robust.

      Basically, if you have a bunch of random individuals, and the 'evolution' just mashes a bunch of the better ones together, you'll see the increase in fitness occurring. But it's not just a small effect : almost any crazy 'mashing together' method works, and the adaptation will spark off unbelievably quickly.

      I know this because I did this for my PhD back in 1995. I had a choice then between going the Neural Net path, and playing around with the Genetic Algorithm/Genetic Programming stuff. Simple experiments proved that making NNs 'do the right thing' was a fairly tricky process of getting things set up right (and your formulae had to be right, etc : a fairly sensitive procedure). But the Genetic stuff was amazingly robust : almost any crazy method of crushing individuals together will produce remarkable innovation and learning (on a population basis).

      But don't take my word for it, write a small piece of code yourself. The literature makes it sound like a more exact science that it needs to be. As I said, almost any 'mashup' method will work - the 'evolution thing' will simply find a way to 'protect' the important stuff.

      So while this looks like 'old news' in some ways, I'm glad that they've got an eye-opening application : More people should know how much the computer guys can add to the biological evolution debate.

    2. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by mangu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's imho an illogical assumption that the universe needed an intelligent creator, but that the intelligent creator didn't need one himself

      I agree, but that's a second step in the argument. If they first demonstrate that intelligence can emerge from a non-intelligent system, then it's an obvious corollary that intelligence wasn't necessary to create the non-intelligent system in the first place.

    3. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by VortexCortex · · Score: 2, Interesting

      High order self aware intelligence as far as we know has only evolved in us. It is exceedingly difficult to say what exactly the odds are for such things.

      It could be pretty damn common then, eh?

      If puddles could think:
      Oh my! Just look at how perfectly I fit into this hole in the ground! This must be proof that an intelligent creator created the hole to suit me.

      As intelligent beings we frequently imagine other things to have our traits. Personifying the very physics that govern the universe creates a god where none exists or is required.

      Just because you have intelligence doesn't mean that plants and rocks and physics do too.

      It is true that humans have used evolutionary principals to change wolves into the many breeds of dogs we have today,
      but using a principal intelligently doesn't mean that it must always have been used intelligently.
      In fact it proves that unintelligent processes (such as a change in climate or food sources) also affect evolution (as verified by the fossil record).

      Having intelligence arise in a system based upon evolution while providing our own substitute for natural selection doesn't prove that an intelligent creator exists;
      It proves that our own intelligence has likely evolved due to unintelligent phenomena such as evolution due to competition and natural selection.

    4. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by sco08y · · Score: 5, Funny

      I would tag this as "more proof soccer sucks." Really, soccer aficionados claim they see all these advanced movements, and that someone really does play better.

      But, let's face it, they don't. They're just a bunch of people running around randomly, and occasionally someone scores by pure chance. That's why the games are always 0-0.

      Seeing good soccer in random movement is part of the faith, much like astrologers see divine constellations in the random pattern of stars in the night.

    5. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by node+3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I would tag this as "Intelligent Design".

      The whole point is that this wasn't designed. Only the initial conditions were designed, and the designers then let them go on their own without any knowledge or comprehension as to how they would progress. The bullshit that is known as "Intelligent Design" is based on the assumption that the end results are too complex to have arisen on their own. In this case, the ability for the soccer players to know how to pass and such would be seen as "too complex" to have arisen by trial and error from a basic initial condition, but this is exactly what happened.

      This was not intelligent design. It is, in fact, the very definition of evolution. It's also worth noting that evolution says absolutely nothing about the initial conditions for life, only how it progressed since it began.

    6. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by deapbluesea · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Basically, if you have a bunch of random individuals, and the 'evolution' just mashes a bunch of the better ones together, you'll see the increase in fitness occurring.

      Funny, I did my Masters degree in 2003 on GAs and the major finding is that, while the system finds novel solutions, it also exploits the weaknesses of the fitness function very easily. In other words, if you wanted to get a particular result, you had to put most of your effort into the fitness function that describes the desired result. This doesn't work without said function, ergo, design is the key, not simply mashing things together. In fact, if you run a GA without a fitness function, you get a random walk, aka monkeys on a typewriter.

      It's foolish to conflate computational optimization methods with biological evolution. While the mechanisms are similar, the means by which it occurs is about as closely related as AI is to human thought

      --
      Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
  14. Tierra was - and is - really cool. by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the late 1980s, ecologist Thomas Ray, who is now at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, got wind of Core Wars and saw its potential for studying evolution. He built Tierra, a computerised world populated by self-replicating programs that could make errors as they reproduced.

    I was so amazed by the results claimed for Tierra that I went and reimplemented it myself. And damned if I didn't get similar results. At the time, it blew me away that such a system could come up with novel solutions I hadn't expected or 'programmed in'. Indeed, a couple times it took me a while to even figure out how the things worked.

    --
    PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
  15. Re:God by V!NCENT · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Evolution isn't some process, it's a phenomenon.

    Genes get mixed and mutate and everything turns to chaos.

    What survives and duplicates gets to the next level. That which dies cannot duplicate and dies.

    How simple do you want it? This is where you stop thinking, God or no god.

    --
    Here be signatures
  16. Re:God by Glonoinha · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you look at the top scientists, most of them believe in God :)

    Actually if you ask the top scientists, most of them will say they believe in God.
    It's the most politically correct answer, but in their minds they are thinking 'no, dumbass, and quit asking'.

    When I was young I went to Sunday School religiously. I wanted to believe, and I wanted to see the path.
    After years of that, one day in Sunday School I picked up the one book it all centered around (the Bible) and asked the teacher if it was true.
    He said 'yes'.

    I asked if it was completely true and that all the answers were in there.
    He said 'yes'.

    Being fairly familiar with the book of Genesis (it was quite interesting, quite detailed, and the first chapter so I read it a few times more often than any others) and the story of the creation of the Earth, I asked if that part was true.
    He said 'yes'.

    So I said 'Where's the dinosaurs?' Blank stares all around.

    I gave him my home phone number and said that when he had an answer for that one, call me and I'll be back. He never called. Now I'm a top scientist.

    --
    Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
  17. Re:Oh... by Mikkeles · · Score: 3, Informative

    A pre-publication (not behind a paywall) version of the Avida (PDF) paper is here.
    A good guide for those who don't welcome our new artificial, man-made overlords and wish to resist ;^)

    --
    Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
  18. Re:God by Enigma2175 · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you look at the top scientists, most of them believe in God :)

    Do they? This page says that 40% of scientists surveyed believed in god (way less than the populace at large) and only 10% of "elite scientists" believe in god. I wouldn't consider 10% of scientists to be "most" of them.

    --

    Enigma