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The Shoddy State of Automotive Wireless Security

angry tapir writes "Researchers from Rutgers University and University of South Carolina have found that wireless communications between new cars and their tires can be intercepted or even forged. While the potential for misuse may be minimal, this vulnerability points to a troubling lack of rigor with secure software development for new automobiles, said Wenyuan Xu, a computer science assistant professor at the University of South Carolina, who was a co-lead on the study. The researchers will present their findings at the Usenix Security Symposium, being held this week in Washington DC."

260 comments

  1. Probably the right design choice by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the potential for misuse is minimal, then it's only common sense to make the tire communications simple and easy to troubleshoot, and to assign the security people to work on something that matters.

    1. Re:Probably the right design choice by pwagland · · Score: 5, Informative

      That is a valid point about the communications, however, from the article, if incorrect data is sent by something pretending to be the tire gauge, it was enough to corrupt the controller to the point where even a simple reboot was not enough to fix it. It had to be replaced by the dealer. Certainly resources need to be allocated wisely however when the device crashes due to invalid inputs, that is at best annoying, at worst very expensive to repair.

    2. Re:Probably the right design choice by Thanshin · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Nope. Perfect security is the objective, whatever the cost.

      I think it's time to start a War on Insecure Car-tyre Communication.

      Btw, when I call someone, people around me can hear my side of the conversation. Does anyone know where to buy cones of silence?

    3. Re:Probably the right design choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Risk Management doesn't work if you don't understand all the risks (Which most people don't) which is why State Correctness should be used instead, especially in this relatively small system. These sorts of security issues arent just poor security, it's poor system development. Security and assurance of any system, whether it be from an unintentional problem or a malicious actor, should be considered an equal requirement of any well designed system.

    4. Re:Probably the right design choice by DDLKermit007 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually this is all old hat at this point. This guy is just stealing from a Def Con talk which needs attribution to Mike Hertzfeld. I was at the talk that first brought this about. It was a little jaw dropping. He came up with ways to track people around cities using the information from the systems. That in itself isn't so bad since almost everyone has Bluetooth and/or active wireless scanning enabled on their phones, but I digress (the police use this method already since it requires no court order). The really meat & potatoes was where if he flooded the system with garbage data over the wireless something interesting happened, the car shut off. Thats the real crazy part to me, that the system is that vulnerable.

    5. Re:Probably the right design choice by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And that goes back to input checking. Never trust your inputs. It's possible that interference could create the same pattern, so they should filter the inputs. But, security isn't needed. Just high school level programming basics. (security could reduce the possibility of bad inputs, but never assume valid inputs when you could just as easily check them)

    6. Re:Probably the right design choice by bbksy · · Score: 1

      yes,i gree with it .

    7. Re:Probably the right design choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      A good programmer will always guard against invalid input.
      http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/exploits_of_a_mom.png
      Suppose a spark plug wire was grounding out against the exhaust manifold and randomly sent out signals that could be interpreted as RFID data?

    8. Re:Probably the right design choice by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      Hmm...I remember when I got one of the newer (at the time) C5 Vettes, with the run flat tires and thought it was pretty cool to be able to monitor the tire pressure in each tire from the cockpit.

      I can understand the need for this system for run flat tires, especially since you carry NO spare with you, but I can't imagine that many 'normal' cars out there today are going with run flats. If not...why are newer cars bothering with wireless from the tires??

      Are there actually that many non-performance new cars out there running wireless communications with the tires in the first place?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    9. Re:Probably the right design choice by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Certainly resources need to be allocated wisely however when the device crashes due to invalid inputs, that is at best annoying, at worst very expensive to repair.

      Never attribute to incompetence that which can be explained by greedy self-interest. The auto manufacturers and dealeer make money off these defective devices. I call foul.

    10. Re:Probably the right design choice by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      New Minis all come with run-flats. Most BMWs do, too. They're horrible things that ruin the ride, but very common indeed in Europe.

    11. Re:Probably the right design choice by MachDelta · · Score: 2, Funny

      Any vehicle sold in the US after September 1, 2007 is supposed to have a TPMS (tire pressure monitoring system) as mandated by the TREAD act.

      Why? Because no one knows how to check the air pressure in their tires anymore.
      That and the whole Firestone fiasco.

    12. Re:Probably the right design choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow!

      A new variation for authors (or geeky criminals) who need a creative diversion in order to execute a daring heist. Flood a busy intersection with garbage data signals and bring traffic to a halt long enough do a robbery. Of course, the geek would have to either drive a car lacking this vulnerability or ensure that he's fixed his own high-tech roadmaster.

    13. Re:Probably the right design choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From an old book of Murphy's Laws.

      The first rule of system programming: Never test for an error condition you don't know how to handle.

    14. Re:Probably the right design choice by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      Hmm...I remember when I got one of the newer (at the time) C5 Vettes, with the run flat tires and thought it was pretty cool to be able to monitor the tire pressure in each tire from the cockpit.

      I can understand the need for this system for run flat tires, especially since you carry NO spare with you, but I can't imagine that many 'normal' cars out there today are going with run flats. If not...why are newer cars bothering with wireless from the tires??

      Are there actually that many non-performance new cars out there running wireless communications with the tires in the first place?

      Tire pressure monitoring systems are required in all vehicles in the US since September 2007. http://www.bartecusa.com/tpms_legislation.htm Many drivers with conventional tires do not regularly check their tire pressures, and drive for months on improperly inflated tires. The whole thing in part arose from the Firestone / Ford underinflated tire fiasco.

    15. Re:Probably the right design choice by sempernoctis · · Score: 1

      The common adage of a chain being only as strong as the weakest link is very true in security. It may seem like the potential for misuse is minimal, but security-/hacker-minded individuals work mostly by finding ways that seemingly unimportant problems affect other things they are connected to. Some of the other comments talk about a DoS-type of attack that can be performed by flooding this vulnerable communication channel; what if it is discovered that this type of DoS attack could, for example, specifically target the braking system?

    16. Re:Probably the right design choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The potential for misuse is huge, Experimental Security Analysis of a Modern Automobile (PDF Warning) is a paper about the chaos that can be caused once an intruder has access to the CAN-bus of a modern car, it was on /. a few months back. I don't know if the wireless system from TFA allow access to the CAN bus, but I assume they are passing data over it at some point to get info/warnings to an ECU and the driver instrument cluster. Put simply once an intruder gets onto the local CAN bus they own the car and can make all its' systems sing and dance however they want, including modifying the spedo reading, applying/disabling brakes, controlling the accelerator, turning on/off headlights, pretty much anything but steering the car because thats still a physical linkage.

    17. Re:Probably the right design choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You say that now. Wait until the DDoS my tires, and they're offline when I need to go to work. How will they get their email? How will my tires tweet? I'm just not ready to take these sorts of risks.

    18. Re:Probably the right design choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like an interesting talk. Do you know what Def Con this was at, or what the title of the talk was? The obvious searches didn't turn up any useful results....

    19. Re:Probably the right design choice by DDLKermit007 · · Score: 1

      It was this year. Def-Con 18. Annnnd...oops! Guess it was Mike Metzger that gave the talk. Showed up as another name on my phone. Look for the talk for "Letting the Air Out of Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems". Dunno how helpful this will be though since your AC *groans*

  2. Sudo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    break
    break!!!
    Oh... sudo break.

    1. Re:Sudo by 16Chapel · · Score: 3, Funny

      I dunno about you, but I'd rather tell my wheels to brake.

  3. Disconnected from reality... by http · · Score: 3, Interesting
    FTFA:

    Xu said that while it is possible to track someone by their tire IDs, the feasibility of doing so would be quite low. "Someone would have to invest money at putting receivers at different locations," she said. Also multiple tire manufacturers have different types of sensors, requiring different receivers. Each receiver in this test cost US$1,500.

    Oh yeah, good thing RFID detectors are so freaking expensive. Plus, someone covertly tracking you is going to be really upset if they can't read your tyre pressure.

    --
    If opportunity came disguised as temptation, one knock would be enough.
    3^2 * 67^1 * 977^1
    1. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Yvanhoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      By the way someone who wants to track a car can use these very convenient numbered plaques visible in front and in the back of the car with only a cheap camera and on-the-shelf software.

      I wonder however if a bad pressure signal could be forged, forcing the car to stop ?

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    2. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Anachragnome · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Plus, someone covertly tracking you is going to be really upset if they can't read your tyre pressure."

      I think you fail to recognize the seriousness of the capabilities of a simple RFID system.

      Most people do not think much about the RFID chips in their tires until they realize (are told) that EVERY stoplight out there has multiple sensor grids built right into the roadbed (to sense the presence of cars and be able to control the lights accordingly). The looks on their faces usually change the moment comprehension dawns on them.

      Those very same grids can be used to detect the RFID chips in your tires. In short, any car with tires made since 2000 can be tracked by the very roadbeds they ride upon.

      Seriously. All this technology to check your TIRE PRESSURE? Who the fuck is kidding who?

      Go try and buy new tires and see how far you get when you refuse to tell the dealer your name. He (or rather, the government) wants a name associated with the tires RFID chips, and usually ask for all sorts of additional info--for "warranty reasons". Even paying with cash, they will argue with you about not giving them a name (but usually crumble when you say you'll just shop elsewhere). Why is it SO important they have a name? So they can help you join the next class-action against a tire manufacturer?

      Media jumped all over the Firestone story, fear-mongered it into something bigger and we end up with this. Tracking tags in our cars. More security theater. Yay.

    3. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Technician · · Score: 1

      A secondary coil or dual resonant tuning would be required. The frequency for vehicle detection and RFID are several orders of magnatude different in frequency. Induction loop vehicle sensors are most often 10-50 KHZ.

      RFID tags use either LF: 125-134.2 kHz and 140-148.5 kHz, 13.56 Mhz, or UHF 868-928 MHz frequencies.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    4. Re:Disconnected from reality... by marten_77 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It should be pointed out that sometimes these tracking features (such as OnStar) can be used in ways that actually do not serve the interests of the government. For instance, in my jurisdiction, police recently set up a sting operation designed to catch car thieves. Undercover agents set up a storefront for purchasing stolen cars, and collected dozens of vehicles over about a half-year period. When car thieves would come in to sell the cars, they would be paid in marked bills, and the undercover agents would drive the cars into a hidden parking deck. The agents didn't want to blow their cover early, though, so they didn't immediately return the stolen cars. (After all, in their minds, catching criminals was considerably more important than returning stolen property.) They left the vast majority of the recovered vehicles in the hidden parking deck for months, without ever notifying the victims that their property had been recovered. This, of course, translated into a significant financial loss for the victims (and their insurance companies). There was one class of victims, however, who got their cars back in short order -- the ones whose vehicles were equipped with OnStar. When asked by law enforcement to keep the operation secret from the vehicle owners so as not to hinder the sting operation, OnStar flatly refused, notifying police that they would immediately provide the GPS coordinates of the missing vehicles to their customers so that the customers could begin legal actions to recover them. Faced with this problem, the undercovers immediately drove the OnStar-equipped cars out to an abandoned lot and then anonymously notified local law enforcement that they had been discovered. The cars that were not so equipped sat in the hidden deck until after the entire sting operation had concluded.

    5. Re:Disconnected from reality... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      That's nothing that can't already be done with red light cameras. No RFID necessary.

    6. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Put on your Tin Hat buddy, its going to be a long ride for you...............

    7. Re:Disconnected from reality... by tweak13 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Go try and buy new tires and see how far you get when you refuse to tell the dealer your name. He (or rather, the government) wants a name associated with the tires RFID chips

      As someone who sold tires for years, I can tell you that there's a foolproof way to get tires without giving out your name. I realize it's crafty and devious, which is why you may not have thought of it. Here it is: Make something up. Wild, I know, but there's about a 99% chance it will work because nobody gives a shit. Seriously, take off the tinfoil hat.

      When I was working for a major chain selling tires, I asked for a name for one and only one reason. Our software wouldn't let me make an invoice without a name. It also required a few other things, but it's just as easy to make up a phone number too. If you lied to me at any point, how the hell would I know? It's not like I asked people to present ID to get tires.

    8. Re:Disconnected from reality... by bev_tech_rob · · Score: 1

      Ummmm....most of the time, they ask you your name so when they are finished and you are walking around the local Wally World waiting on your tires to be installed, they don't have to page you over the store PA and say "Would the person with the mohawk and stud in their tongue please return to automotive? Your car is ready".....duhhhh.... Fricken paranoid...

      --
      You're messin' with my Zen Thing, man.....
    9. Re:Disconnected from reality... by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Why is it SO important they have a name? "

      In order to direct snail mail spam.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    10. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Silfax · · Score: 1

      I wonder however if a bad pressure signal could be forged, forcing the car to stop ?

      Worse yet - if a steady stream of forged low pressure signals can be sent to a vehicle with automatic tire inflation causing it to overinflate to dangerous blowout levels.

    11. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      Go try and buy new tires and see how far you get when you refuse to tell the dealer your name. He (or rather, the government) wants a name associated with the tires RFID chips, and usually ask for all sorts of additional info--for "warranty reasons". Even paying with cash, they will argue with you about not giving them a name (but usually crumble when you say you'll just shop elsewhere). Why is it SO important they have a name? So they can help you join the next class-action against a tire manufacturer?

      Sorry, not buying it. If Discount Tires is working for "the government", they don't need your name, the need details on your car, like, oh..., the license number.

    12. Re:Disconnected from reality... by plover · · Score: 1

      Correlation is not your friend. You can expend a lot of energy trying to avoid giving the tire seller your name, but the first camera+RFID Reader combo you encounter will associate your tires with your license plate. This could happen at a gas station, or county courthouse, or parking garage.

      If you're that concerned, you need to kill the RFID tags. I'm not sure how you'd do that, as a tire in the microwave is not exactly feasible.

      --
      John
    13. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, there are schemes out there now where a "concerned motorist" flags you down because he says he sees smoke coming from your car, and helpfully leads you to a nearby garage that he knows of, where his brother-in-law scams you into needless expensive repairs. It would be a simple matter to drive up and down the highway with a transmitter sending bogus low-tire readings to scare folks into a shady tire shop.

    14. Re:Disconnected from reality... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      A secondary coil or dual resonant tuning would be required. The frequency for vehicle detection and RFID are several orders of magnatude different in frequency. Induction loop vehicle sensors are most often 10-50 KHZ.

      If they use a frequency in the proper range that is a multiple of the vehicle detection frequency, can't they use the existing antenna? It's a lot bigger than it needs to be...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:Disconnected from reality... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "By the way someone who wants to track a car can use these very convenient numbered plaques visible in front and in the back of the car with only a cheap camera and on-the-shelf software."

      Dunno where you live, but I only have to have 1 license plate on my car...on the rear.

      I'm currently working to surround it with infared LED's, to try to deter simple cameras from easily reading that too.

      :P

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    16. Re:Disconnected from reality... by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      I wonder however if a bad pressure signal could be forged, forcing the car to stop ?

      Actually, that could be very useful for cops...and stalkers.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    17. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I predict this will be a plot point on some crime-time drama before the end of the year. The tattooed, pierced, hackbot will click away at the keyboard while saying something to his/her older superiors. Like "See, all we have to do is hack into the perp's auto computer system and . . .there you go." Whereupon the superior says something like "Hacky, what would we do without you?"

    18. Re:Disconnected from reality... by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      Last time I bought tires retail, they handed me the government registration form and said "please fill this out and mail it in."

      If I didn't, I didn't. My decision.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    19. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      interesting story. link?

    20. Re:Disconnected from reality... by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      Wait, government registration forms for tyres? Which country is this in?

    21. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dunno where you live, but I only have to have 1 license plate on my car...on the rear.

      Dunno where you live but I can narrow it down pretty well if I assume you live in the US. There is a pretty good chance you live in the south, and if you legally only have one plate then I can be sure you live in one of the following 19 states:
      Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, and West Virginia.

    22. Re:Disconnected from reality... by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      But a conspiracy is SO much more juicy than the truth!

    23. Re:Disconnected from reality... by danwiz · · Score: 1

      Seriously. All this technology to check your TIRE PRESSURE? Who the fuck is kidding who?

      An ex GF of mine once got a friend to show her how to drive a manual transmission ("stick"). The engine on her friend's car seized up on the highway during the trip home.

      Why? Because there was no oil in the car and the friend was too stupid to know how to read the Oil Pressure gauge on her dashboard.

      Quote - "Oh! We were wondering why that thingy was bouncing all over the place!"

      People pay for convenience and stupidity all the time. It's nothing new, and it's getting worse. I know of quite a few drivers that can't do basic checks and maintenance such as tire pressure, oil level, tire treads, and change the wiper blades. It's how "idiot lights" got invented, and why people depend on an automotive club to change their flat tire. The days of having a mechanic along in the front seat are long gone.

    24. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never seen so fucking much fud in my life. Do you have proof of these RFID tags in all tires made since 2000?

      The tire shops I go to don't give a shit about my name. They just need something unique for their paper work and records.

      How the fuck can the loop of wire at a stop light that essentially acts as a metal detector read RFID tags?

      Where the fuck are they sending all this data and storing it?

      Where the fuck did my little local municipality get the money to build this infrastructure?

      What do they do at those stop lights that don't have induction loops and use cameras instead? Ah yea... They probably photograph your face and scan for thought crimes.

    25. Re:Disconnected from reality... by http · · Score: 1

      There's a real problem with that approach: though it is temporarily effective in the short term, it makes staff comfortable insisting on demanding the information. It slowly normalizes the abnormal. If Mr. TinFoil here is right, you are furthering a system that compromises privacy to an astonishing degree - and there doesn't have to be sensors at every traffic light for there to be a system. If Mr. TinFoil is wrong, you're making it so such a system shall become trivial to implement.

      I recently had a bank insist that, in addition to my government issued ID, they needed my email address and telephone number in order to cash a cheque and pay a bill. It's a lie, as evidenced by the fact that I eventually walked out of there with more money and one less cheque. Your privacy is worth something only for about as long as you defend it.

      --
      If opportunity came disguised as temptation, one knock would be enough.
      3^2 * 67^1 * 977^1
    26. Re:Disconnected from reality... by BigSes · · Score: 1

      Odd that you are concerned about privacy and use (what I would assume to be) your real name on Slashdot.

    27. Re:Disconnected from reality... by supersat · · Score: 1

      The problem is that these sensors transmit at very low power (since they're battery powered and need to last for years) and they only transmit once every 60 seconds. You'd need a lot of sensors just to pick up one chirp.

      It's possible that you could send a strong "re-pairing" signal the sensor to force it to transmit, but that signal drops off even faster.

    28. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Anachragnome · · Score: 1

      "If you're that concerned, you need to kill the RFID tags. I'm not sure how you'd do that, as a tire in the microwave is not exactly feasible."

      A General Motors 1980's HEI ignition module (with no primary wiring hooked up) laid on the tire, then momentarily powered up and cycled for a few seconds will do the trick. Point the primary circuit connector (that shiny circle of metal on the flat face of the coil) directly at the RFID chip. Collapsing the field will induce current in the RFID antenna of sufficient voltage to fry the chip.

      Locating the chips can be a bitch. There is usually a raised area over the chip, about 1" x 3/8".

      Also, if your car is equipped with PRESSURE sensing RFID monitors, these are different then the RFID TAGS used by the manufacturers of tires. The tire ID chips are INSIDE the rubber of the tire. The pressure sensors are mounted outside the rubber. Do NOT kill the pressure sensors. You WILL have a dashboard of warning lights screaming at you until you replace them and clear trouble codes.

      Be sure to have hands clear when powering up the coil. With no primary circuitry hooked up, that coil will reach out up to six inches to find a friend. HEI coils will put out 60-70KV easily.

    29. Re:Disconnected from reality... by Anachragnome · · Score: 1

      "A General Motors 1980's HEI ignition module..."

      HEI Ignition COIL.

      Sorry.

    30. Re:Disconnected from reality... by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      Canada, its not exactly mandatory as I understand it, but there's some link between your registration and recalls.

      See the Riding on Air guide by the government of Canada (registration notice just before the next section).

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    31. Re:Disconnected from reality... by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      My comments on Slashdot reflect myself as a person. I have no qualms about that association whatsoever.

      What I choose to post on Slashdot may reflect on my concern for privacy. My registration here as a user does not.

      Were Slashdot slightly more edgy, like say (nsfw) alt.com, I probably wouldn't use my real name.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    32. Re:Disconnected from reality... by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      Alright, that's fair enough. I had visions of some 1984, everything is regulated society somewhere.

  4. This is onstar! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    We currently show you driving 95 miles an hour with four flat tires. Would you like to be routed to a service station?

  5. If you've got a toll tag... by pongo000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...the government is tracking you already (where I live, toll tag transponders can be seen on telephone poles miles from the toll roads). If you have OnStar (even if it's "disabled"), GM can still locate your vehicle. I suspect it's even possible to monitor a vehicle's CANBUS for unique signatures that would identify a specific vehicle. Hell, your cell phone will give you up.

    For some reason, I'm not too worried about the RFID tags on my tire valve stems.

    1. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hell, your cell phone will give you up.

      At least Rick Astley won't give you up, nor will he let you down.

    2. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by TheLink · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you carry a cellphone with you and are within "coverage", you're already tracked.

      They can find out which towers your phone has been talking to and thus figure out where you've been.

      --
    3. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by Nichole_knc · · Score: 1

      Not only toll tag readers on toll roads.. I my area on the interstate loops around the city and on the primary major routes through the city there are these covered square sensor looking gadgets that point at the roads, they are similar in appearance to the prepass sensors for Semi truck weight stations. HOWEVER they are placed at intervals along the road path, low and to the side. My conspiracy theory: they read car data that newer cars already spew out for ID and theft recovery. This information is already stored at the DMV by VIN, DVR license, name and SSN. Once you open any door to your home you have no reasonable expectation of privacy..Be it the front door or an electronic one to a cloud...

    4. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      I often move around on foot or by public transport; I'm often either not carrying a 'phone or have it switched off; I frequently don't carry ID; I pay in cash, where necessary. In short, I'm like the average human in Britain 30 years ago. One of the reasons I do this - on top of all the obvious arguments about good health, good tree-hugging, the ability to concentrate when I'm not always interruptible, etc. - is that I love knowing that I'm untrackable. What I'm doing on such a day won't be written down and used against me, or as a training exercise for some more oppressive system. Nothing can see me which I cannot also see. We are even.

      (To preempt "CCTV": yes, there's a lot of it in cities and large towns. Most of it is privately owned. We may be the most populated country in Europe, but most of the United Kingdom is still empty space with the occasional interspersed village.)

    5. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Switching off your phone doesn't stop them tracking it. You need to remove the SIM card and battery to be sure (and if you're really paranoid, wrap them in tin foil).

    6. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent reply. What a guilty pleasure.

    7. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by plover · · Score: 1

      In America, most metropolitan buses have an array of CCTV cameras, continually recording on a locked-up storage device. Theoretically these deter criminals. But they record regardless of your non-criminal actions.

      --
      John
    8. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by jridley · · Score: 1

      No. I don't keep my phone on. I'm pretty sure it's not doing anything sneaky while off, because I can leave it off for a month at a time and the battery is still in good shape, so it's not doing much, if anything when off.

    9. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      Yeah, as here, and same for newer rolling stock. Although it does take away some of the sense of freedom when I'm using public transport, such CCTV is the least intrusive record vs centrally linked cameras or tagging. I can just about cope with a grainy image, no more than someone sitting next to me on the bus would see, difficult to process, perhaps seen weeks later or never.

    10. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "...the government is tracking you already (where I live, toll tag transponders can be seen on telephone poles miles from the toll roads). If you have OnStar (even if it's "disabled"), GM can still locate your vehicle. "

      Toll Tag == Nope!!

      OnStar == Nope!!

      Cell phone...ok, you got me now, but wanting to get one of those pouches that will block the signal when I want it to.

      Funny, I thought about it the other day when looking at some cars...was looking at one of the newer Corvettes, and it seemed ALL of the damned things had OnStar. I asked the salesman if I could order one without it...confused he said he didn't think so. I didn't buy...

      I'm wanting one, but damn...guess I'm gonna have to study up first how to best disable OnStar myself, without screwing up any of the other electronics in the car.

      Sad that it is NOT an option anymore on some autos....some of us want LESS.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    11. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      You're correct, off is not off for many 'phones. Taking your battery is out is sufficient. Which I often do, because it's a 2 second operation as I don't have an iPhone.

    12. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Hell, your cell phone will give you up.

      Not necessarily. Phones like Net10 or Boost can be paid with cash. I'm on Boost, bought the phone and fees with cash (no name) and pay the $50 monthly bill with cash by buying a PIN at a gas station.

      But I'm not worried about RFID in my ture valves either.

    13. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      My toll tag attaches to the windscreen with velcro, and it's in the glovebox when I'm not on a toll road.

    14. Re:If you've got a toll tag... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you mean unique signatures? There is a message in the canbus to read the VIN number and I am pretty sure that that is unique enough to identify a specific vehicle.

  6. Lets skip to the heart of the matter by CdBee · · Score: 4, Informative

    Cars don't need wireless sensors. In fact they don't need most of the electronics that gets built in at all. This may seem old-fashioned but for nearly a century a complicated non-electronic system called 'THE DRIVER" would monitor the state of the car and act appropriately when a deflating tyre is detected. I believe this system is moderately effective and not subject to radio spoofing.

    Ask me to design my ideal car and it'll have a lightweight but strong aluminium body, a simple, efficient diesel engine, comfortable seats and a decent stereo. Everything else is chaff, I don't even need ABS.

    --
    I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
    1. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by wgoodman · · Score: 1

      New cars have a lot more sound insulation, and louder stereos so it's a lot harder to know when a tire is getting low based on the sound. I've been on plenty of crappy roads where I've pulled over cause it felt like the tire was shot, It's kind of nice to have a little light save be a few min.

    2. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Informative

      Ask me to design my ideal car and it'll have a lightweight but strong aluminium body, a simple, efficient diesel engine, comfortable seats and a decent stereo. Everything else is chaff, I don't even need ABS.

      I'd rather have airbags than a decent stereo.

      However, before even thinking about airbags, I'd really enjoy to have lights, windshield, mirrors, ...

      Brakes are nice too. unless you're planning to go slow enough to brake with your foot.

    3. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

      Ask me to design my ideal car and it'll have a lightweight but strong aluminium body, a simple, efficient diesel engine, comfortable seats and a decent stereo. Everything else is chaff, I don't even need ABS.

      I'd rather have airbags than a decent stereo.

      However, before even thinking about airbags, I'd really enjoy to have lights, windshield, mirrors, ...

      Brakes are nice too. unless you're planning to go slow enough to brake with your foot.

      Wheels are a nice feature too.

    4. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Cars don't need wireless sensors. In fact they don't need most of the electronics that gets built in at all. This may seem old-fashioned but for nearly a century a complicated non-electronic system called 'THE DRIVER" would monitor the state of the car and act appropriately when a deflating tyre is detected.

      I'm not arguing if favour of sensors, be them wireless or not. Just pointing why we are in the situation of discussing over "tyre sensor hijacking" now, maybe there's something to learn.

      From TFA:

      The U.S. has required such systems in new automobiles since 2008, thanks to legislation passed after controversy erupted over possible defective Firestone tires in 2000.

      A bit of google-ing around resulted into this, with the relevant section being:

      Many outside observers tend towards blaming both parties; Firestone's tires being prone to tread separation and failure, and the SUVs being especially prone to rolling over if a tire fails at speed compared to other vehicles.

      To summarize:

      1. two corporation releases products "defective by design" (no anti-DRM, at least not yet). Put together and the driver would have little chance to avoid a sudden tyre deflating followed by the SUV rolling over
      2. at least one overzealous government legislates an overcomplicated measure for the problem (another is to follow by 2012)

      The moral of the story: common-sense is vanishing rapidly and we are living interesting times - yet another another mean for government to be aware of you and another branch of security research is born (with the correspondent hacking branch to follow).
      And no, the tin foil does no longer help, not when common-sense is so epically failing.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    5. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by CdBee · · Score: 1

      Most people would have included those things as defining features of a car and therefore unworthy of mention.

      --
      I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
    6. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Gordonjcp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You can use the ABS sensors to detect a soft tyre. Some Volkswagens can actually have a soft tyre warning added, by a firmware update!

      Basically what you do is you measure the output of all four wheel sensors (as the ABS unit does anyway), and see if one is consistently a higher speed than the others. Soft tyre == smaller rolling radius == faster rotation for the same road speed. It won't catch if all your tyres are equally flat.

    7. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Gordonjcp · · Score: 0, Redundant

      You can use the ABS sensors to detect a soft tyre. Some Volkswagens can actually have a soft tyre warning added, by a firmware update!

      Basically what you do is you measure the output of all four wheel sensors (as the ABS unit does anyway), and see if one is consistently a higher speed than the others. Soft tyre == smaller rolling radius == faster rotation for the same road speed. It won't catch if all your tyres are equally flat.

        This exact comment has already been posted. Try to be more original...

      So why isn't it showing up?

    8. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by nospam007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "a complicated non-electronic system called 'THE DRIVER" would monitor the state of the car and act appropriately "

      Is that the system that is unable to differentiate between gas and breaks in a Toyota?

    9. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by AlecC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Over past decades there has been a continuous fall in fatalities per mile driven. This is, to a large extent, due to continuous small improvements, of which this is one. Of course you may be savvy enough to keep your tires properly inflated - but the average Joe Public isn't - or at least 10% of Joe Public. And properly inflated tires reduce the risk of accidents, in which Joe Public can kill not only himself but also you. You may, indeed, be an above average driver (like 90% of the population, in their opinion) but most people (in real tests) are not.

      Incidentally, you didn't specify synchromesh, windscreen wipers, indicators, damped suspension, automatic ignition timing... Once upon a time, cars didn't have these. Have you ever driven a car from the 1920s? Would you know how to double-declutch and when to use the ignition advance retard? What you are saying is that cars don't need the improvements since you started driving - a version of the "Good Old Days" fallacy.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    10. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by sleeping143 · · Score: 1

      However, before even thinking about airbags, I'd really enjoy to have lights, windshield, mirrors, ...

      Brakes are nice too. unless you're planning to go slow enough to brake with your foot.

      All of which are required by law, and would obviously be features. In all fairness, though, cars do need many of the sensors in order to keep the engine running at peak efficiency, thanks to fuel injection. And if you say you'd rather have carburettors anyway, you've clearly never owned a carburetted vehicle for any length of time. Ultimately, data is good, and more sensors means more data.

    11. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ask me to design my ideal car and it'll have a lightweight but strong aluminium body, a simple, efficient diesel engine, comfortable seats and a decent stereo. Everything else is chaff, I don't even need ABS.

      I'd rather have airbags than a decent stereo.

      However, before even thinking about airbags, I'd really enjoy to have lights, windshield, mirrors, ...

      Brakes are nice too. unless you're planning to go slow enough to brake with your foot.

      Wheels are a nice feature too.

      Nah, they're just a fad.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    12. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by zippthorne · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You might think you don't need ABS, but as another driver on the road, I'd prefer you had it. I'd prefer it a lot.

      I don't care if you think you can pump the brakes well. ABS can pump them a lot faster, and it can do something you can't ever do without drastically changing the controls design: it can pump the brakes individually by wheel.

      If the only danger was you sliding off a curve into a a tree or ravine after losing your steering, I'd say, "Go for it, we can always use less people." But it's not. There's also the danger of you not being able to avoid an accident with me, and I like being alive!.

      Please be considerate of your other drivers.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    13. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      I'd add a decent steering wheel to that too.

    14. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a pedestrian, I need you to have ABS.

    15. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by markov_chain · · Score: 1

      He forgot a transmission too.

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    16. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't care if you think you can pump the brakes well. ABS can pump them a lot faster, and it can do something you can't ever do without drastically changing the controls design: it can pump the brakes individually by wheel.
      Not sure why parent is a troll, since he is correct modern ABS can brake each wheel individually allowing for maximum control under braking. So unless you're driving the McLaren MP4/12, ABS can do a better job braking each wheel then you can.

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
    17. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Comment 1: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1749062&cid=33201496
      Comment 2: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1749062&cid=33201516

      Try not to spaz out next time, okay? Maybe adjust your thresholds, then grab a coffee or something.

    18. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by nacturation · · Score: 4, Funny

      "a complicated non-electronic system called 'THE DRIVER" would monitor the state of the car and act appropriately "

      Is that the system that is unable to differentiate between gas and breaks in a Toyota?

      In some cases, this non-electronic system called "THE DRIVER" is unable to distinguish between brakes and breaks.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    19. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the body, engine and seats aren't?

    20. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by boring,+tired · · Score: 4, Informative

      My last car did this. Driving on snow or very wet roads would trigger the low tire pressure warning. It did detect an actual low tire once but there were so many false positives that I learned to ignore it. One good thing is that it forced me to keep a pressure gauge in the car so I could check the tires and reset the warning light.

    21. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A non-abs car with trained talented driver will always stop faster applying a controlled amount of force to the breaks then a computer randomly pumping them. Granted in the US, that is probably about 2% of drivers.

    22. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      Cars don't need wireless sensors. In fact they don't need most of the electronics that gets built in at all. This may seem old-fashioned but for nearly a century a complicated non-electronic system called 'THE DRIVER" would monitor the state of the car and act appropriately when a deflating tyre is detected. I believe this system is moderately effective and not subject to radio spoofing.

      This may come as a surprise to you, but there are an awful lot of idiots driving around out there.

      Folks who don't even respond when the car clearly informs them that their tires are low.

      And you want to rely on these idiots to accurately sense and diagnose everything that can go wrong with their vehicles?

      If they were all driving on some closed course somewhere and their assorted issues only affected them, it would be one thing. But that isn't the case. I'm sharing the road with them. And when one of them loses control of their vehicle because a part didn't get serviced and broke, it's suddenly my problem.

      I don't even need ABS.

      Maybe... Depending on where you live and how you drive... You might never use ABS. If you never, ever drive under any conditions where you could lose traction then you're probably correct.

      But if you ever drive in rain, or on any kind of loose gravel or sand, or in the snow, or on ice, you really do need ABS.

      Sure, yes, you can pump your brakes. But you can't pump the brakes on just one slipping wheel while leaving the rest of them spinning normally. And you certainly can't pump the brakes anywhere near as fast as the ABS does.

      Speaking as someone who would rather not have you careen into me because you've lost control of your car - yes, you do need ABS.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    23. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even the most insecure and least-reliable computer is better than the average human.

      What's the single largest cause of accidents, both now and from the beginning of the automobile? Hint, it's not computer error.

    24. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'd rather have airbags than a decent stereo."

      I'd rather people on the road were not lulled into a false sense of security by
      airbags, so they would drive as though their life depended on how they drove,
      because it DOES. In a big crash, airbags won't save you -- you will die anyway,
      and all EMS responders know this is true. Just ask the next EMS person you
      see and they will tell you about the bodies which were located behind the ( deployed )
      air bag.

      Best of all, selfish douche bags need to quit driving big SUVs. I tell you all this : if you
      hit me while you are driving your SUV and you do not kill me, you will experience a life-altering
      event shortly afterward.

    25. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your information is at least a decade old, I'm afraid.

      With modern ABS systems, it's 0% of drivers. While in theory perfect threshold braking will outperform ABS, in reality ABS systems have improved to the point where there doesn't exist the person who can outperform them.

    26. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by MiniMike · · Score: 4, Funny

      Brakes are nice too. unless you're planning to go slow enough to brake with your foot.

      His ideal car doesn't have a transmission or wheels, so unless he's on a steep enough hill that his lightweight but strong aluminum body can skid down it, he'll just be sitting in his driveway going 'vroom vroom' anyway. If his ideal house has a driveway, that is. As his ideal car also doesn't have a floor pan, he'll have no trouble using his feet to pretend to brake.

    27. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must not be from Texas, or air conditioning would have made the list.

    28. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You actually stop faster in nearly every condition without ABS. But, with ABS, you are more likely to be able to maintain steering control.

    29. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This may seem old-fashioned but for nearly a century a complicated non-electronic system called 'THE DRIVER" would monitor the state of the car and act appropriately when a deflating tyre is detected.

      Your strategy is fine for racing vehicles, but ABS provides additional safety to those who do not believe it to be magical and disable switches are very easy to implement since all ABS fails to simple brakes. Meanwhile, we have run-flat tires that can go flat so graciously that you don't even notice until you try to make a 90 mph curve on one, and they CERTAINLY enhance vehicle safety (being less vulnerable to blowouts, let alone leaving you stranded on the uphill of the Bay Bridge in the left lane or something like that.

      Airbags save lives, and events beyond your control happen all the time in motoring. You can be as cocky as you like, but suggesting that these safety features are unuseful is ridiculous at best. And as to your decent stereo, doesn't that interfere with your monitoring of a car that has no monitoring equipment?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    30. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      ABS has been shown not to reduce accidents. Therefore you don't really need to care if other drivers have ABS. However, it can still help YOU if YOU have it, IF you can exercise the restraint required to drive as if you don't have ABS.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    31. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      It's not about the cars, it's about the dealerships. More complicated electronics means more expensive repairs, more work that only the dealership can do (many third-party garages can't keep up anymore), and more maintenance. That all translates to more $ for the dealership.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    32. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Funny
      "All of which are required by law, and would obviously be features. In all fairness, though, cars do need many of the sensors in order to keep the engine running at peak efficiency, thanks to fuel injection. And if you say you'd rather have carburettors anyway, you've clearly never owned a carburetted vehicle for any length of time. Ultimately, data is good, and more sensors means more data."

      I'm still with the GP on one thing...I just HATE ABS. I just never feel in control with those damned things...you slam them on when you absolutely have to, they start 'chattering', and won't stop you in time. If not for some good steering on my part, not to mention luck at the time with a place to go without hitting another car, those things would have cost me money in damages.

      I liked my old '86 911 Turbo. That thing would handle when you needed it, and no ABS (hell, no airbag either)....one time I had to slam the brakes on that thing at high speed, it locked up, slowed to where I had to be speed wise to make a manuver, and I could then steer and re-accelerate to get out of the situation. It worked. Of course, I have 4 bald spots...one on each tire which I'd locked it up, but that's the price you pay. I just bought new tires, and was on my way, no wreck, no body shop.

      Granted, this car was a special case, but in any car I've had, I just cannot get used to ABS. I feel they take too much control away from me.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    33. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [CITATION FUCKING NEEDED]

      Like seriously needed. This isn't like one of those stupid anecdotal claims. ABS DOES stop a car in an emergency in a shorter distance than some dude who slams on the brakes realised he has locked his tires and thinks back to defensive driving training of how to unlock his locked wheels. ABS DOES allow you to manoeuvre with your foot so firmly planted on the brake that the pedal is about to snap. ABS makes all of this accessible to grandma who doesn't have a clue how to pump the breaks for fast breaking.

      Prove to me your claim that people who have ABS (assuming people even know if they have ABS or not) drive faster, tailgate closer, or do anything else more dangerously.

      So seriously man backup your absolutely ridiculous claim that a system that improves emergency response on many levels has shown not to reduce accidents. Oh and a non ABS car rear-ending an ABS car does not count for obvious reasons. Bonus points if it's the kind of article that will stand up to review of the general slashdot crowd and not sourced from some stupid tabloid.

    34. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by jimbolauski · · Score: 1, Funny

      ABS is over-rated and will actually cause the car to stop slower, all it is good for is people that panic and stomp on their brakes which would put them in a spin otherwise.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    35. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad that the electrics on a Volkswagen are about as reliable as the old English cars. So that feature is worse than useless.

    36. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by gad_zuki! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I hate this neo-luddite position people take when any little thing goes wrong. Your dream car is my nightmare death-trap car. I want airbags, ABS, wireless tire gauges, proximity sensors, ability to pull codes from computer, etc. I suspect most people do. If you want a specialized custom car, then built it yourself, but don't pretend your simplistic car needs speak for anyone else but yourself.

      Not to mention its foolish to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I remember people like you when the web started to become popular. "Oh who needs this crap, I already have TV and the newspaper!"

      I'm probably older than you and I certainly remember the PITA carburetors were compared to fuel injectors. Heck, my dad had to deal with vapor lock. When was the last time you needed to rebuild a carburetor or wait out vapor lock? I think you're just spoiled by the technology you decry.

    37. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [citation needed]

    38. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Cars don't need wireless sensors.

      Before there were sensors in the tire to warn of low pressure, most people even then didn't check the pressure unless the tire looked low. Having an idiot light come on when your pressure is low is a GOOD thing. They've had oil pressure guages and idiot lights for probably almost as long as there have been engines, why not a tire pressure sensor as well?

      I don't even need ABS.

      ABS will get a car stopped faster than an identical car without ABS, even with a driver trained in emergency situations (I was a driver in the USAF, their training was pretty extensive and there was no ABS back then). If your brakes are locked it takes farther to stop, and the computer can react much faster than you can. You may not care if your car has ABS, but I do -- I might be the one you hit.

    39. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would you know how to double-declutch and when to use the ignition advance retard?

      Hey, no need to call names!

    40. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by OhHellWithIt · · Score: 1

      I agree. It ticks me off that we are stuck with unnecessary tire inflation detection hardware because people insisted on driving a Ford Explorer like it was a sports car.

      --
      "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
    41. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      for nearly a century a complicated non-electronic system called 'THE DRIVER" would monitor the state of the car and act appropriately when a deflating tyre is detected.

      I challenge this assertion:
      http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/electrical.asp

      Also people are lazy and don't do that enough, so seeing a warning light telling them a tire is low is good.

    42. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by camperdave · · Score: 2, Informative

      This exact comment has already been posted. Try to be more original...

      So why isn't it showing up?


      In order to deal with the massive volume of readers, Slashdot periodically builds a static page. This is what gets served to you when you read Slashdot, not an on-the-fly dynamic page built from the comments database. It takes a few minutes for your comments to become part of the static pages. I think it even says that when you hit submit.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    43. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by CdBee · · Score: 1

      the ALUMINIUM body, the DIESEL engine and the COMFORTABLE seats provably aren't

      --
      I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
    44. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Xacid · · Score: 2, Informative

      But then they let women drive... /obligatory mysogyny.

    45. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by camperdave · · Score: 4, Insightful

      you slam them on when you absolutely have to, they start 'chattering', and won't stop you in time.

      If you had regular brakes, the wheels would have locked and you would not be able to steer at all. You would have slid into the other car. You only have control when the tire is gripping the road.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    46. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by CdBee · · Score: 1

      Actually in some of the conditions you specify - most specifically loose gravel - ABS dramatically reduces braking ability compared to a car without it.

      --
      I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
    47. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The stereo will need to be quite decent in order to hear it over the diesel engine.

    48. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by CdBee · · Score: 1

      In the last decade I've half a million miles in cars with no monitoring equipment at all and no airbags. *stops to check* - yup. Definitely still alive.

      If we took the airbags out of every new car and replaced them with a hardened steel spike you'd see an immediate reduction in traffic accidents. Technology makes people cocky. Skill and a direct relationship with the car is the cure.

      --
      I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
    49. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by CdBee · · Score: 1

      I still miss the one carburretted car I've owned. Even now after nearly 20 years.

      --
      I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
    50. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by CdBee · · Score: 1

      ABS will get a car stopped faster than an identical car without ABS, even with a driver trained in emergency situations

      Provably not true

      --
      I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
    51. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      ABS makes all of this accessible to grandma who doesn't have a clue how to pump the breaks for fast breaking.

      My Grandma is probably a lot more experienced with pumping the brakes to prevent a lockup than I am. Most of her driving was done without ABS, but every vehicle I've owned has had ABS (though my dad's pickup that I learned on did not). That is not to say that I disagree with your point, ABS is wonderfully convenient because in an emergency situation it reduces the number of things I need to think about.

      Aside from the slippery surface type accidents, I have a hard time seeing how ABS would help prevent anything. Definitely assists the drivers in handling emergency situations, but parent is right that ABS can't really be proactive in stopping accidents.

      GP's last point though is valid. "Don't drive like your car makes you invincible". ABS, airbags, and crumple zones do not give you the freedom to drive like Mad Max.

    52. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      "Ask me to design my ideal car and it'll have a lightweight but strong aluminium body, a simple, efficient diesel engine, comfortable seats and a decent stereo. Everything else is chaff, I don't even need ABS."

      1969 Land Rover Diesel, aftermarket stereo, you may not find the seats adequate.

      You didn't specify sufficient climate control, sound deadening, rollover characteristics, or 5-mph bumpers. Nor did you specify windshield wipers, functional defrosters, or any number of other useful safety features. But the Rover does meet your specs, depending on the subjective seating quality requirement. Aftermarket stereo can be fitted by any Rover dealer or local Best Buy, and there of course the 'adequate' feature may be met without useful bass response, since very few vehicles are conducive to hearing the bass over road and tire noise anyways, even the best of the luxury sedans just suppresses rumble, not eliminates it.

      But hey, some people think an old Rover is indeed ideal.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    53. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are of course entitled to your opinion, however, unless your planning on combining that with a much stricter driving test and stricter laws for driving an ill-maintained car, I think you're an idiot.

    54. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by cynyr · · Score: 1

      how about we remove the air bags, and move to anchored 5 point harnesses, and helmets with HANS devices. I'll keep the wheels, and the steering wheel ideas though. Airbags are dumb, an attempt to keep the squishy meat bag from hitting something hard when they are being tossed around the car. It's much simpler to simply stop the meat bag flying around in the first place. My kids are in 5 point harnesses attached to the seat frames, why not me too?

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    55. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Aside from the slippery surface type accidents, I have a hard time seeing how ABS would help prevent anything. Definitely assists the drivers in handling emergency situations, but parent is right that ABS can't really be proactive in stopping accidents.

      Wow, that many people don't know what ABS is for?

      Why do you pump brakes in non-ABS cars in an emergency? It's not just because you stop shorter because the tires aren't slipping on the road (remember in physics? Coefficient of static friction is higher than dynamic friction, and tires work by static friction). But also because you can steer and maneuver while braking.

      Remember those emergency stopping tests where you suddenly had to apply the brakes *and* avoid the obstacle? Pumping the brakes works, but in an emergency, that's something one has to be consciously do (while avoiding obstacles is mostly a reflex action). ABS simplifies the procedure down to "Stomp on brakes, steer away from trouble". Which your average cellphone-using-texting-distracted driver will probably be able to do instinctively

      Take common obstacles like kids running onto the raod. You can't stop in time, so you must steer around the kid or hit them. A car with locked-up wheels is out of control and will hit the kid. If you're able to consciously pump the brakes, you can steer out of the way. ABS does the same - it pumps the brakes for you so you still have the ability to steer. And most people will feel hitting a parked car is a far better outcome than hitting the kid.

      Ideally, you'd stop before the obstacle. But if you can't, you still have enough control to steer. Sure ABS probably can't compare to an expert driver at stopping distance when pumping, but it's far better for the vast majority of drivers out there, and it handles the common case where most drivers will just stomp on the brakes and lock the wheels up.

    56. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by cynyr · · Score: 1

      which is not how ABS works, maybe if it applied the brakes little enough to keep the wheels rolling, but nope, it's full on then full off, then full on again. Thats the real problem, also a good driver can get the wheels unlocked and the car corrected faster than ABS works.

      Personally i've slid 5-10 feet into intersections because of ABS when it is slick out. The ABS sensors in my older car do not work well at 5 MPH (this is by design it looks like, they can only detect movements of s certain angular distance, i think it was about 20 degrees), and so they come on, and i end up in the intersection, instead of stopped where I should have been.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    57. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by cynyr · · Score: 1

      modern ABS... hmm so all of those late 90's early 2000's cars are probably not equipped to that. Also if the diver is driving correctly he/she shouldn't be close enough to another car to need ABS. Well maybe if another driver cuts them off, and then breaks hard, but if you are doing that you caused the accident and ABS won't help much. To this day I have yet to have ABS come on in dry conditions, but i find it sucks for slowly stopping at a stop sign in the snow/ice. in my '95 it fails to detect wheel movement at around 5mph, and thinks i've locked a wheel up, i haven't i've gotten out and looked before. no sliding at all.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    58. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by cynyr · · Score: 1

      i'll take a 5 point harness and a helmet and HANS device, over your airbags any day. I'm completely ok with adding sensors, but taking control away from the driver is asking for problems. I don't even like automatic transmissions (DSG or hydraulic) for that reason, if i step down I want the car to react now. Also very few modern cars are really direct injection, most inject into the air stream going to the engine valves, not into the cylinder, making them at best a lower maintenance carb.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    59. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by ThomsonsPier · · Score: 1

      Hey, them's the brakes.

    60. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, if you use a bit of finesse, you CAN steer in a skid. For that matter, with finesse, you can stop shorter without ABS than with, and without locking up.

      Dynamic friction is less than static, but it's not zero.

    61. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      If you had regular brakes, like the guy in the F1 car going three times my speed, you'd use threshold braking skills to bring the car to a sudden stop without the need for electronic assistance. I don't mind equipping cars with ABS, but I should be able to turn it off just like cruise control.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    62. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by shadowfaxcrx · · Score: 1

      That may be true, but it's obfuscating the actual point - - don't overdrive your brakes. The reason ABS and TCS and Stabilitrak and all the other "anti-driver-retardation devices" exist is because people are crappy drivers.

      In the days before ABS, it's not as though every driver got into a wreck every time it snowed. Some did, because they were dumb, and tailgated other cars, or drove too fast for conditions, or paid attention to the girl in the passenger seat instead of the curve and drove into the ditch. And others managed to avoid it because they drove their car appropriately for the conditions.

      While it's true that ABS has stopped wrecks that are caused by drivers who just slam on the brakes and pray when something bad happens, it's also true that ABS has not done what is really needed, which is to yank those idiots off the road until they learn to drive in the first place. Introducing ABS for those drivers is no better than a moron with 4 wheel drive. We've all seen 'em. First snow of the year, and they're out there driving like they're on a race track because "I have 4WD! It's made for these conditions!" Give an idiot ABS, and he'll think he can tailgate as much as he wants, and drive faster than he should, because to him, ABS means "brakes that will never fail to stop the car in the distance required."

      --
      "I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
    63. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by sjames · · Score: 0

      The best response it to NOT pump the brakes at all, but rather to steadily apply them at just below the level where the tires start to slip. I can do that but a typical ABS cannot. A good ABS can get close enough but no better.

    64. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      ABS simply keeps the wheels from locking up. That's it, that's all. To do so, it must by design brake less hard than the driver might.

      Not all circumstances require pumping for rapid braking, nor is a full tire lock-up always bad. In gravel for example, a full tire lock-up can create a nice trench that stops the vehicle faster while displacing the surface in question.

      If I had a vehicle option of choice, it would be a much tougher driver licensing system with long-term on-going testing for actual driving skills to maintain the license.

      For example, not all people who are skilled enough to drive to the shopping mall are skilled enough to drive on the freeway.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    65. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by confused+one · · Score: 1

      People don't need electronics or computers to do other tasks either; but, we have them. You're using one now for a purpose that, technically, is nothing more than communication. Humans have had the ability to communicate without electronics since at least when Homo Sapiens started walking the Earth.

      Many of these devices added to cars are conveniences, like your stereo. Many have been shown to (or have the potential to) save lives, like the tire pressure sensors. As such, have been mandated in new vehicles. If you want to drive a simpler vehicle, then either buy an older pre-electronic car; or, build your own car.

    66. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

      Not quite what you describe, but the old Mini was a pretty good example of ultra-minimalist car. Check out the picture where it is cut open http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini. That's right, most of the car is a single thickness of sheet metal.

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    67. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Sorry, you're wrong. It's not only provably true, but has been proven true.

    68. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And most people will feel hitting a parked car is a far better outcome than hitting the kid.

      Although the latter is often better for society.

      Less stupid kids who run in front of cars to become stupid adults who do stupid things and make more stupid kids.

      Darwin in action.

      We could also use a population reduction.

    69. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by MachDelta · · Score: 1

      This is a common feature on many European made vehicles (BMW, VAG, Merc, etc).
      It's not perfect though, because if two tires on the same axle go flat at the same time the system might not notice.

    70. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, cars without all the latest safety features aren't instant deathtraps. Just because you've been lucky so far, doesn't mean you'll never be in a situation where those features could save your life. Or those of your passengers, other drivers or pedestrians.

      The goal of car safety features is not primarily a reduction in car accidents. It's a reduction in death and injury due to car accidents.

    71. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Well, the funny thing about GP's post is that the very things he complains about are the only advantages to ABS systems: The car retaining its ability to steer and avoiding tire lock-up - if he'd had ABS, he would have slowed down *faster* than he did with all wheels locked up. I'm not a fan of ABS, but society has clearly placed a low priority on teaching driving skills (threshold braking, evasive maneuvering, etcetc) instead using technological solutions like ABS, adaptive cruise control, cameras and sensors.

      You're right, a *good* driver can correct a car faster without ABS - but how many drivers out there are good enough not to just lock up all four brakes and slide into the next guy? I sure as hell don't trust the guy behind me to stop in time in an emergency...

      --
      +1 Disagree
    72. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by StayFrosty · · Score: 1

      I would take it a step further and remove power steering too. Depending on the weight of the car I would possibly forgo power brakes as well. My ideal car would be rear wheel drive with a live rear axle for simplicity, strength and ease of maintenance. Rear suspension would be simple leaf springs. The hood would open by tilting away from the windshield and would be easily removable. The fenders would lift up with the hood for easy access to the suspension and steering components. Simplicity and ease of maintenance would be my primary objectives. Less complication (chaff) leads to less points of failure. I wish modern cars would be designed with this in mind.

      --
      "Frequently wrong, never in doubt."
    73. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by green1 · · Score: 1

      You might think you don't need ABS, but as another driver on the road, I'd prefer you had it. I'd prefer it a lot.

      I would MUCH prefer if other drivers were forced to learn to drive instead of using ineffective technical measures which are more likely to cause a collision than a properly operated automobile without them.

      I don't care if you think you can pump the braes well. ABS can pump them a lot faster

      If you are pumping the brakes, or want the brakes to pump automatically, you don't know how to drive and shouldn't be allowed on public roads.

      There's also the danger of you not being able to avoid an accident with me, and I like being alive!.

      Please be considerate of your other drivers.

      As a driver considerate of other drivers, and of myself, I choose a vehicle WITHOUT ABS, and a vehicle with a driver who knows how to use the brake pedal to stop the vehicle in a distance shorter than ABS ever can and with far more control.

    74. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by green1 · · Score: 1

      I can, and have proved it many times. Or do you not qualify my 2010 truck as having "modern ABS"? because I can definitely feel the loss of braking power any time the ABS kicks in, and it has nearly caused several collisions.

    75. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      You still stop faster, and you keep going in the same direction you were when you slammed on the brakes. What he was talking about was that he was in-control enough of his car that he could do those things manually better than ABS can help.

      ABS is for the 90% of drivers who panic and can't actually drive. It increases stopping distance, but it allows control to a panicked driver who just slams their foot down. Somebody who actually knows how to work their vehicle will have locked up the wheels to slow down even faster, and then eased off the brake when they needed to actually steer. It's not that hard, it just takes the right instincts and training.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

    76. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tell you all this : if you hit me while you are driving your SUV and you do not kill me, you will experience a life-altering event shortly afterward.

      Let me guess... you'll key his car?

    77. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      In order to deal with the massive volume of readers, Slashdot periodically builds a static page

      Okay, so that will be why no new comments showed up on any story for a couple of hours, then? Look at the timestamp on the original comment, and look at when your comment was posted. New comments began to show up around 12pm, but for about three hours nothing showed up. I have no idea why it would accept a post, but not actually show up even in my user page.

    78. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by KnightBlade · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you'll be happy driving around like Fred Flintstone. Yabba dabba doo?

    79. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by StayFrosty · · Score: 1

      And if you say you'd rather have carburettors anyway, you've clearly never owned a carburetted vehicle for any length of time. Ultimately, data is good, and more sensors means more data.

      Diesel engines do not have carburetors. Mechanically injected diesels have been around for many years and do not need sensors to run well.

      In a gasoline engine I would prefer a carburetor to multi-point fuel injection any day. For the price of one or two sensors I could replace the entire carburetor. I've been driving carbureted cars for years and will gladly take the trade-off of more difficult starting in the winter (it gets to -40F fairly often here) to the complexity and extra cost associated with a multi-point FI setup. If/when my car starts running like crap the list of possible culprits is quite small--spark plugs, wires, distributor cap/rotor or the carb is out of adjustment. If all of those things fail at once it will take less than $40 and one hour to fix. On a multi-point EFI car the first thing to do is plug it in to a diagnostic computer and half the time it's still a crap shoot. Several hundred dollars worth of sensors later you may or may not be back to normal. As a compromise, I don't think throttle body injection is a terrible way to go. It only needs a couple of sensors (O2, knock and throttle position sensors) and that keeps maintenance costs to a minimum. It also allows for easier starting, more power, better mileage and a much better chance of meeting environmental regulations.

      --
      "Frequently wrong, never in doubt."
    80. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by sconeu · · Score: 1

      [AOL]
      Me too!
      [/AOL]

      Had an '85 Mazda 626 2-door, manual tranny. Last of the carbureted engines they made. 2.0L aluminum block.
      Because the car was so light, it would accelerate like crazy... even going uphill in a higher gear (freeway
      speed).

      I loved that car.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    81. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by tomz16 · · Score: 1

      Cars don't need wireless sensors. In fact they don't need most of the electronics that gets built in at all. This may seem old-fashioned but for nearly a century a complicated non-electronic system called 'THE DRIVER" would monitor the state of the car and act appropriately when a deflating tyre is detected. I believe this system is moderately effective and not subject to radio spoofing.

      The problem is that many of these new cars come with RunFlat (RFT) tires. It is difficult to determine when a runflat has lost pressure. Since there is only a finite distance you can go before the tire loses integrity entirely (~200 miles or so), TPMS is essential for preventing blowouts in those cars.

      I have this BS TPMS/RFT system on my 2008 BMW, and personally believe runflats are a TERRIBLE idea... but we are stuck with RFTs for the time being and TPMS is an essential safety component in the mix.

      Ask me to design my ideal car and it'll have a lightweight but strong aluminium body, a simple, efficient diesel engine, comfortable seats and a decent stereo. Everything else is chaff, I don't even need ABS.

      Don't fool yourself. *YOU* may be an experienced track driver (i'm guessing based on your bravado dismissal of ABS), and don't need ABS, but everyone around you certainly does. ABS goes a LONG way in keeping a panicked novice driver in control of their car during an emergency. Furthermore, Brake Force Distribution systems and ABS do make a substantial difference in stopping distance in the real world (even for experienced drivers). An electronic system can keep *each* tire precisely at the threshold of static and kinetic friction far better than you can keep the *average* of all four tires at that threshold via modulation of the brake pedal. Go look up the stopping distances on a modern luxury car with the fancy electronics and compare it to any cheaper car without these systems! As an example, the *presumably experienced* test driver at Edmunds was able to stop a 2004 kia spectra from 60mph in 140ft. A mercedes S550 will do it in 108ft!

    82. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read some high school physics. Sliding friction (locked wheels) static friction (wheels that are rolling with the brakes on JUST befrore lockup) ABS saved me a couple of times (crashing and new tires)

    83. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      Brakes are nice too. unless you're planning to go slow enough to brake with your foot.

      Flintstones...meet the Flintstones...

    84. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by engineer_uhg · · Score: 1

      YES. And most of my friends think the same way. Why don't we see manufacturers actually making cars like this?

    85. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by serbanp · · Score: 1

      Amen!

      I hate the airbags and would disable the ones in my cars if I would know it's legal and have the knowledge of how to do it. If you're wearing prescription glasses, you won't feel too cozy knowing that a small bomb is constantly looking at you, waiting to blow in your face and possibly render you blind because you bumped over a curb at 35MPG.

    86. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by karnal · · Score: 1

      I typically bump into curbs at 20MPG, thank you very much.

      --
      Karnal
    87. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      New cars have a lot more sound insulation, and louder stereos so it's a lot harder to know when a tire is getting low based on the sound. I've been on plenty of crappy roads where I've pulled over cause it felt like the tire was shot, It's kind of nice to have a little light save be a few min.

      You shouldn't be relying on sound to know when it's low. The tire pressure should be regularly checked with a gauge. If the tire is significantly low you're going to feel it anyways.

    88. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      My last car did this. Driving on snow or very wet roads would trigger the low tire pressure warning. It did detect an actual low tire once but there were so many false positives that I learned to ignore it. One good thing is that it forced me to keep a pressure gauge in the car so I could check the tires and reset the warning light.

      Once driving up a long steep hill in the snow the wheels were basically spinning the whole way up. By the top the ABS light came on. The speed was so different it assumed a dud sensor rather than a low tire :P Well it didn't have a low tire light either.

    89. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Carb setups REEK. I don't care how well they're maintained, they stink of gasoline and the tailpipe emissions are horrid. I just got a fuel injected motorcycle and LOVE IT.

    90. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by StayFrosty · · Score: 1

      Emissions are the down side of carb setups. Personally, I've never had a problem with the smell of gasoline on any of my carbureted cars. Unless you are flooding it out when trying to start it there should be little to no gas smell at all.

      Good luck with the efi bike.

      --
      "Frequently wrong, never in doubt."
    91. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by SparkEE · · Score: 1

      Not true, the system still notices. The system gets calibrated when the tires are filled up by a competent driver initializing calibration through a simple 22 step process done entirely be a single button and a 2-line dashboard display. It's even written down in the manual that I'm sure every driver reads before operating a vehicle. The proper tire speed to engine speed is then stored in the computer over the next few miles of driving. After that point, any/all tire deflation will be noticed.

    92. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      Airbags and 3-point seatbelts are the compromises we made to accommodate those stubborn suicidal maniacs refusing to buckle up at all.

      I mean, people are actually refusing to wear a helmet on motorcycles at highway speeds, even if it increases their chance to survive a crash tenfold.

      No chance in Hell we could make those idjits wear a 5-point harness, let alone a HANS device. Never ever. People are too lazy to move their finger 2cm / 1 inch to user their turn signal.

    93. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by phoenix321 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A good driver cannot ever hope to lock and unlock the brakes with full force faster than the ABS computer.

      Claiming to be able to do otherwise would win the "hubris of the millenium" prize.

      A proper ABS computer and system can not only lock and unlock the wheels within milliseconds (which would be suboptimal anyway) but keep the whole car at THE maximum brake power that is physically possible while keeping the vehicle able to steer - during the whole process, on all surfaces, at 4am, after a 10-hour work shift in the factory, with no startle response, not scared to fully apply all power available.

      Maybe I've just never met a "good" driver by your standards, but chances are the guy in that car sliding into you wasn't one, either.

      Please don't blame it on the ABS if you're approaching the intersection too fast for the given road condition. This would only show you're probably not a good driver and/or unaware of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

    94. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, as a pedestrian you need to stay the fuck out of the road when cars are within a less-than-safe stopping distance.

    95. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      As you said, the friction in a locked-up wheel slide is much lower than the friction with the wheel still rolling. Which is correct and the reason why steering a locked-up wheel is so damn hard and requiring "finesse".

      But how can the car stop faster if it's wheels experience significantly lower friction?

    96. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      And then you want to drive 90 MPH while tailgating someone because your car is so damn safe that you’d walk away from a head-on collision with a brick wall.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    97. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      Guys in that F1 car
      - go three times your speed
      - in a vehicle less than half the weight of your vehicle
      - with equipment costing more than three decades of your current income
      - after months of full-time training by professionals
      - on a dedicated, near-perfect road
      - always wearing a five-point harness and a HANS device
      - are disallowed from using electronic supports because of FIA regulation
      - still have regular hard crashes.
      - still occasionally die in horrible ones.

    98. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by sjames · · Score: 0

      The comment about not losing all friction only applies to steering.

      The key to braking is to finesse the brakes such that you don't skid. Apply just enough pressure and you get maximum stopping power without breaking traction. In practice, you'll probably bark the tires then back off to re-establish traction, then re-apply most (but not all) of the force that broke traction.

      An ABS system will instead tend break and re-establish traction repeatedly at high frequency. It might just manage to approach (but cannot exceed) the braking efficiency of a human with appropriate finesse.

      Of course, if you blow a fuse or get water into the wrong place, the ABS system will let you down and since you're used to it, you won't have the appropriate feel for the unassisted brakes.

    99. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Buelldozer · · Score: 1

      You should Google "Threshold Braking". ABS or NON-ABS it's the absolute best way to maneuver while your trying to scrub speed. If the ABS gets in your way while threshold braking that means you failed at it and the ABS just saved you.

      This other chatter about slamming the brakes and maneuvering is just that, chatter. If the front wheels are locked because of you stomping the brakes you aren't steering around anything anyway.

    100. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Speaking as one of those antique wetware vehicle controllers....

      I have driven on roads so bad it felt exactly like the last time I had a seriously flat tire. On one trip, I stopped the car and got out twice because I couldn't believe it was the road and not my tires. With my current car, I can glance at the dashboard to confirm that it's the road.

      Not to mention that checking tire pressure is often inconvenient, particularly since it really should be done on cold tires. I've had tire gauges break from rattling around in my glove compartment. I've filled the car in weather where I'd just like to finish as fast as possible and get back inside. It's nice to have some advance warning.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    101. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Or the ABS kicked in way earlier than it should have, which is more typically what I notice when driving vehicles with ABS.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    102. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by HereIAmJH · · Score: 1

      Had an '85 Mazda 626 2-door, manual tranny.

      What a sad place Slashdot has become. Next, someone will post how they regret selling their Neon. The only car that I formerly owned that I miss was my '67 Firebird.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
    103. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by adolf · · Score: 1

      That's not a test.

      If you want compare the ABS on your truck, to the same vehicle without ABS, then simply do so:

      Go some place controlled, with a long measuring tape or measuring wheel. Pick a speed and a stop line.

      Accelerate to your predetermined speed. Hold it until you reach the stop line. Stop with all your might. Measure. Let the brakes cool back down.

      Next, disable the ABS system (methods vary, but it's generally trivial), and do the same thing, stopping the truck however you (and your reaction delay) think it should best be stopped.

      Compare.

      After that, just go buy yourself 2 or 4 new tires to replace the ones that have flat spots on them from your stupid charade. Then come back here and tell what you think of ABS.

    104. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One assumption there is that you need to steer.

      Sometimes braking quickly is more important than having full control of the vehicle.
      In other words, if there are no good options for trajectories and all you want to do is slow down as much as possible and hope to minimise or avoid impact.

      It'd be awfully nice to have the option, then.

    105. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My ideal car is spherical, you insensitive clod!!

    106. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by green1 · · Score: 1

      ok, how about the test where I threshold brake properly and stop fine, and then go again and slam on the brakes (allowing the ABS to kick in) and stop in a much longer distance? or are you simply one of those ABS evangelicists who will never admit that ABS could possibly be flawed (now why is it that race cars don't have ABS?)

      There are no 2 ways about it. ABS will make you stop in a longer distance than if you knew what you were doing 100% of the time, regardless of "modern" or not. pulsing the brakes will NEVER make you stop faster than if you brake properly, so as long as that's all ABS does, it is incapable of stopping you faster.

      stopping distances:
      shortest: brakes locked up.
      next: proper threshold braking
      next: "new" ABS that only pulses the wheel/wheels that loose traction
      next: "old" ABS that pulses all the wheels
      longest: pumping the brakes manually.

      control:
      most: proper threshold braking
      next: "new" ABS
      next: "old" ABS
      next: pumping the brakes manually
      least: locking up the brakes.

      I hate that as a driver I'm penalized because OTHER drivers don't know what they are doing. it's time we stop regulating "smarter cars" and start regulating smarter drivers. driving is NOT a right, it's a privilege, and if you aren't capable of doing it safely you shouldn't be on the road endangering those of us who do know how.

    107. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by ahtnos · · Score: 1

      I choose a vehicle WITHOUT ABS, and a vehicle with a driver who knows how to use the brake pedal to stop the vehicle in a distance shorter than ABS ever can and with far more control.

      Do you spend the majority of your time driving in thick gravel or snow? If so, then yes, you actually will be better without ABS. Of course, the reason won't be that you are such an expert driver, it will simply be that locked wheels will stop you faster in conditions where the tires can dig in. In fact, stopping in the shortest distance in such conditions takes no skill at all; just press the brakes hard to lock your wheels and keep them locked.

      However, in circumstances where locking your wheels is not fastest way to stop, ABS will beat you. Why? Well, wheels kept just at the threshold of locking should provide the best braking power. Both you and the ABS try to achieve this. However, the ABS can 1: react faster than you can and 2: brake the wheels independently. An ABS that can do this (not all can, but the better ones have independent braking) does not have to sacrifice braking power on 3 wheels to avoid locking one (or, loose braking power on one wheel because it's locked in order to keep the others at the best level).

      So, on hard surfaces any ABS can probably best you, and a good ABS can definitely best you. On excessively loose surfaces you may be able to stop in a shorter distance than the ABS, but at the cost of loosing maneuverability.

    108. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by green1 · · Score: 1

      However, in circumstances where locking your wheels is not fastest way to stop, ABS will beat you.

      Unfortunately for you, there is no such situation, on EVERY road surface, and under ALL conditions, there is ALWAYS a faster way than pumping the brakes, sometimes the best solution is threshold braking, sometimes it is locking up the wheels, but it is NEVER pumping the brakes. Which means that until ABS does something OTHER than pump the brakes, there will NEVER be a situation in which ABS stops the car in a shorter distance than someone who knows how to drive properly.

      Why? Well, wheels kept just at the threshold of locking should provide the best braking power. Both you and the ABS try to achieve this.

      Name one vehicle that has an ABS system that works on the principle of threshold braking, they don't exist. All an ABS system does is pump the brakes really fast, the fancy ones do it only on certain wheels instead of on all of them, but they still pump the brakes. something that is just never a good idea.

      So, on hard surfaces any ABS can probably best you, and a good ABS can definitely best you.

      My previous example of ABS vs threshold braking has been tried on the following surfaces:
      - dirt
      - gravel
      - asphalt
      - metal

      and under all of the following conditions:
      - dry
      - wet
      - muddy
      - snowy
      - icy

      and in ABS equipped vehicles manufactured in:
      - 1994
      - 2001
      - 2006
      - 2007
      - 2008
      - 2009
      - 2010

      In ALL of these cases braking properly has proven more effective than letting the ABS kick in, and in all cases allowing the ABS to kick in has caused a substantial DECREASE in braking power.

      If you can't reproduce these results, it's not because your ABS is better. It's because you don't know how to brake properly.

      you may be able to stop in a shorter distance than the ABS, but at the cost of loosing maneuverability.

      Threshold braking ALSO provides better manoeuvrability than ABS, locking up the brakes does not, but is still a handy tool in situations where the shorter distance is more important than the manoeuvrability.

    109. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by adolf · · Score: 1

      Your question was already answered: "stopping the truck however you (and your reaction delay) think it should best be stopped."

      No, I'm not an ABS evangelist. I understand and am fully capable of threshold braking. And I have driven the same car, at length, both with and without ABS.

      I learned that I prefer having ABS available and working properly.

      Why? Because I'm human, I make mistakes. I'm not always 100% focused on my surroundings, and even if I am, I can't see all things at once. My brain does not always operate at 100%. I am susceptible to various degrees of being tired. I think I'm an OK driver most of the time, but I'm also an excellent driver some of the time, and quite certainly a lousy driver the rest of the time. And I have no control over my surroundings during a typical road trip.

      So, picture it. I'm driving along a dark, rural divided highway at night and somewhere in my peripheral vision I notice something move that looks like it might be a deer. Based on this fleeting glimpse at the edge of the headlights, I dumped as much speed as I could by mashing the brake pedal into the firewall and kept the wheel straight. The deer, which I could now plainly see running toward the car, then got nailed by the bumper. After breaking off both headlights (they were pop-up) the fucker slid up the hood toward the windshield and all I could think was "fuck, I wish I could somehow brake a little harder, or I might have that deer in my lap."

      It didn't make it through the window, which is good. The car didn't survive (bummer), but the folks inside of it were all fine. It stopped in a neat, straight line. This all went down in a second or two -- things happened fast.

      Without ABS, things would've played out almost the same. My initial reaction would've been the same: dump speed as quickly as possible. But the method for doing would've been different: I'd have to think. I'd have to brake gradually as the weight transferred to the front axle. I'd have to monitor its progress, using my eyes, ears, inner ears, and brain. I'd have to consider the type of pavement and the condition of it. I'd have to do these things to avoid locking the brakes, possibly resulting in a loss of control, or at least making it harder to keep the car going straight.

      And I can do all that stuff. In fact, I really do enjoy playing with non-ABS cars just for all of those reasons, when my surroundings are predictable. Life isn't always predictable, though. Without ABS, I'd still be thinking "fuck, I wish I could somehow brake a little harder, or I might have that deer in my lap," while doing everything else involved in proper threshold braking, in the dark with no headlights, with a deer covering the windshield.

      Fuck. All. That.

      (And there's the if's. What if the rear brakes lock up early because it's a GM with drum brakes that are cold and wet? What if the right-side tires are on the white line or the rumble and don't have as much grip? I don't have four brake pedals to take care of these issues, so my only option is to reduce braking power to all four wheels. ABS, however, can deal with this stuff pretty well automatically.)

      So for everyday driving, it's ABS FTW. For fun or for sport? Meh.

    110. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      ABS simply keeps the wheels from locking up. That's it, that's all. To do so, it must by design brake less hard than the driver might.

      Congratulations, you just disqualified yourself from participating in this conversation. I only wish I had noticed your comment sooner. High-quality ABS in fact does more than keeping wheels from locking up. Numerous systems detect (or think they can detect) snow or gravel and they will indeed lock up the front wheels for a moment to build up a pile of same so that they have something to brake against. This differentiates it from the old-school ABS like in my '93 Impreza, where some jackhole tried to make a right turn in front of me at quite some distance, but managed to turn his pickup LEFT in the process and slide sideways in both lanes. I had nowhere to go so I just jammed my foot down on the pedal which began vibrating like magic fingers and making a lovely noise which accompanied it quite well. This permitted me to steer gracefully around the pickup, onto the shoulder, and back onto the road, decelerating regularly all the while. I then released the brake and gently applied the accelerator, and off I went down the road as I had been before the incident.

      So, not only are you wrong, but even when you're right, it's still enormously useful. Being able to steer and control the car as I went into a ditch would have been pretty shitty if it had happened, but still much better than T-Boning a Toyota.

      Not all circumstances require pumping for rapid braking, nor is a full tire lock-up always bad. In gravel for example, a full tire lock-up can create a nice trench that stops the vehicle faster while displacing the surface in question.

      Yeah, that's all true, which is why there are ABS implementations that do that. Too bad you didn't know that before chiming in. Of course, they still won't stop you in anything like a short period of time on ICE without studs, but neither will much of anything else you can do.

      If I had a vehicle option of choice, it would be a much tougher driver licensing system with long-term on-going testing for actual driving skills to maintain the license.

      I wholeheartedly agree. If I had panicked in that situation, frozen, and just held the brakes down and the wheel straight, I would have creamed the schmuck ahead of me who didn't know how to drive. But because I had ABS and my wits, I was able to steer right around him in a situation that I would have had to try to skid and accelerate my way through otherwise, since I was driving an AWD vehicle. And my other vehicle at the time I still have, a 1982 MBZ 300SD. That would have been HORRIBLE as it's RWD and weighs ~3475lb at the curb. The other one I have now is a 1992 F250, which has Kelsey-Hayes RWAL (rear-wheel antilock brakes). Opinions on its usefulness are varied, to say the least. What I'd really like on both of these vehicles is traction control, but that's difficult to implement gracefully on a mechanically-regulated diesel.

      I support greater licensing requirements, so long as there are no training requirements whatsoever; it is not the government's business how you acquire the relevant skills whether it be through formal training, simulator time, or simply being a prodigy and learning by osmosis.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    111. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'm probably older than you and I certainly remember the PITA carburetors were compared to fuel injectors. Heck, my dad had to deal with vapor lock. When was the last time you needed to rebuild a carburetor or wait out vapor lock? I think you're just spoiled by the technology you decry.

      When was the last time you rebuilt a fuel injector or, god forbid, a diesel injection pump?

      I'm just playing devil's advocate; I hate carburetors too. But you're only practically able to use fuel injection because whole industries exist to produce and rebuild the parts. I've replaced injectors on a 240SX before, and they'd been replaced once already. I've replaced the injection pump on an International 7.3 diesel, and while I'd like to find out how to rebuild them myself you need a flow-testing rig and building one is non-trivial, although any asshole who can work out the volume of a cylinder can probably figure it out given enough time and money.

      I do have to say that I absolutely adore distributorless vehicles. Never have to do the timing again? Sign me UP. I now own two vehicles with mechanically regulated diesels (the parts for the electronic ones are two to ten times as expensive and there are more of them, too) and timing them is something of a bear. The similarity between the injection pump and a distributor is limited, but it's there.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    112. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Live axles eliminate four CVs and a handful of bushings at best, and meanwhile subject you to shit handling. There is no such thing as a live axle design which graciously handles a rapid camber change. Sure, you can compensate, but wouldn't you rather have the car do it for you? When I make a rapid camber change in my F250 or my lady's Astro at speed I have to think ahead, in spite of both having fully independent front suspension. But my MBZ, my Subaru before it, my 240SX before that, my 300ZX before that... well, the car turns in gracefully as you make the transition, because the suspension wants it to do so.

      If you really want to get a car that's a great car and simple to work on get one of the reliable years of Impreza. Every other Subaru is hard to maintain because you can't reach stuff but the Impreza has a four cylinder engine in a space large enough for a six (several 3 liter swap vehicles exist) and everything on the car is designed for easy maintenance to make it a better racing vehicle. You can replace axles without losing any fluid from transaxle or rear diff, for example. There is no distributor on any modern Subaru (1993+) and the brakes are split FR/RL and FL/RR, with 10.4" in front and 10.1" in the rear so that if you lose one channel of your braking system through a fault in caliper, line, or even master, you will still have somewhat balanced braking. AWD and ABS are both trivial to disable if you feel you need to do so. The first time you drive an AWD car with good handling is like the first time you have sex with a buzz on, except it's less likely to result in accidents.

      I've heard it said that the Germans made great cars with great parts and the Japanese made them with great design. Well, German cars are now made out of shitty parts, and the failure rates show (except, ironically enough, for VWs made in Wolfsberg.) Japanese cars are made out of the same stuff as always but they've gotten even better at building the systems.

      If you want simple, you're going to have to go back in time (at least on the lot) and you're going to end up with a lot of poorly designed stuff by modern standards, like a live axle rear. But you CAN find vehicles that are designed to be maintained. Just look at rally cars, which tells you pretty much what you need to know. The more like the street car the race vehicle is, the more likely it is you'll want one; further, if it takes them a long time to do maintenance on the race car, you don't want to go near the street model.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    113. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by green1 · · Score: 1

      If you can't do things that require thought while driving in stressfull situations PLEASE do not get behind the wheel ever again!

      As for what would have happened without ABS... we'll never know because you didn't try it. there are good odds that mashing the brake pedal down all the way would have avoided the collision with the deer alltogether, though you may have ended up in the ditch (which if done properly isn't a bad thing, if done without thought could get you in more trouble.)
      The only thing that can be 100% guaranteed is that your stopping distance would have been shorter without ABS. whether you were capable of keeping the vehicle under control in such a situation would be a matter of your driving skill. (which considering that swerving wasn't something you considered, I don't put much faith in)

      Having ABS forced on us removes the option to stop in the shorter distance. Just because many people don't know how to drive, those of us who do are forced to drive with inferior vehicles.

      I would much rather people be forced to learn to drive than that any of these technologies be forced uppon us. unfortunately in a world where nobody ever takes any responsibility for their own actions, and where everyone is "entitled" to a car, it doesn't look like we'll make people learn to drive any time soon. So we won't get rid of the huge number of injuries and deaths from automotive collisions every year.

    114. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by adolf · · Score: 1

      Don't tell me: You're a safety evangelist.

      Listen up. I want things to be as simple as possible. Adding more things onto the thought-process pile in a stressful situation with little potential benefit and a lot of potential detriment is not on my top-10 list of things that I consider positive.

      Meanwhile, you're wrong in so many ways that I won't entertain this discourse any longer.

      For example: Oh, look! The car is upside down in a ditch, and Joe is bleeding in the back seat, but hey everyone! The deer is OK!!!

      And, no, there's no promise that the stopping distance would've been shorter without ABS. I panic, lock the wheels, and slide. Yay! Meanwhile, the rubber (which is a lousy fucking heatsink) turns to muck, and the car slides around.

      Thanks, but no thanks. I'll keep my friction losses where they belong: Between the pads and the rotor.

    115. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by green1 · · Score: 1

      And I'll keep my car where it belongs. Ride side up and intact.

      I never suggested being upside down in the ditch, I suggested right side up in the ditch, quite possible if you know what you are doing, and frequently a better option than hitting a large animal.

      A competant driver will ALWAYS be safer without ABS.
      An INCOMPETANT driver will NEVER be safe behind the wheel regardless of ABS.

      It's time we stop pandering to incompetant drivers and start making sure people know how to drive before being allowed to.
      Not everyone is capable of safely operating a multi-ton vehicle travelling at speeds in excess of 100km/hr. And that's ok. What's not ok is allowing them to do it anyway.

    116. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by adolf · · Score: 1

      And I think it's time for you to die in a fire.

    117. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you think you know everything, but in fact, ABS is notoriously bad at detecting the difference between slip conditions.

      Snow, gravel, sand, water, ice, mud, loose material on a solid surface, etc. are all much more rapidly detected by the driver.

      Proper driver training and threshold braking nearly always results in a better stopping distance. Electronic traction systems tied to ABS may add additional cornering functionality and one-wheel-slip situations that aren't normally handled, but as I said elsewhere, I'd more often than not turn them off in certain adverse situations.

      My friend's car won't even go uphill in the winter if he doesn't have brand new tires on because the on-board traction system believes his slightly-smaller-radius tires are slipping more than they are. Genius. Do the math yourself; that would be an easy mistake to make.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    118. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you think you know everything, but in fact, ABS is notoriously bad at detecting the difference between slip conditions.

      Most ABS, sure. But that's not an indictment of ABS, but of bad ABS implementations.

      Snow, gravel, sand, water, ice, mud, loose material on a solid surface, etc. are all much more rapidly detected by the driver.

      Which is great if they know what to do, and are capable of threshold braking. In vehicles without harnesses, and on many surfaces, the driver is just going to experience surging which jostles them around the car and causes them to lose control when trying to break evenly anyway. Most people are not going to be able to recognize the condition, plant their foot on the dead pedal, and then do the right things with the other foot as quickly as ABS is going to let them steer, period, the end. You are wishing that everyone would be trained as well as a race driver. We will eliminate cars and use PRT before that happens, mark my words.

      Electronic traction systems tied to ABS may add additional cornering functionality and one-wheel-slip situations that aren't normally handled, but as I said elsewhere, I'd more often than not turn them off in certain adverse situations.

      That's your prerogative. The vast majority of persons are not qualified to do this. I would prefer that they have ABS and TC.

      My friend's car won't even go uphill in the winter if he doesn't have brand new tires on because the on-board traction system believes his slightly-smaller-radius tires are slipping more than they are. Genius. Do the math yourself; that would be an easy mistake to make.

      No, that would be a terribly difficult mistake to make, because you're supposed to be comparing all four wheels. Comparing individual wheels to a computed value based on gear ratio and tire size is total amateur hour. You haven't bothered to tell us what kind of car it is though, so it's hard to credit your statement. There's too many other things which could go wrong to assume that's the problem. Still, incompetence does not mean the technology is bad, it means the engineers failed and were incapable of success.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    119. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      How ABS is implemented in general is all that really matters for the 99% of people who drive a car with those ABS implementations. The rest I won't bother arguing with.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    120. Re:Lets skip to the heart of the matter by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      How ABS is implemented in general is all that really matters for the 99% of people who drive a car with those ABS implementations. The rest I won't bother arguing with.

      That's a load of poppycock! No wonder you're still trying to defend your position, you're arguing from a point of total logical fallacy. The most important thing is the skill of the driver — if they can't outbrake their ABS then it doesn't matter how good the ABS is, does it? It's still an improvement for the vast majority of drivers. I would venture to say it's superior for 99% of them, but the actual numbers may differ. The point is that your thought process is totally lost, you're focusing on some absolute value of technical prowess, but all it has to do is to be better than the driver and it's a win. Since most people can't drive worth a squashed shit, ABS is of high value for most drivers. That remaining 1% can disable it, or buy a modern Audi, Subaru, or other vehicle with ABS that's better than they are. Even trained drivers cannot outbrake the good ABS implementations on anything but the grippiest surfaces, that's a fact and it has been proven. That 1% case is totally irrelevant when you are talking about the average driver.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  7. Turn off the brakes by drop+table+user · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why bother with the tire pressure when you can make instruments give false readings, kill a car engine remotely or turn off the brakes ?

    1. Re:Turn off the brakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of this requires physical access to the car at some point... I can put a whole in your brake line and get the same results

    2. Re:Turn off the brakes by tris203 · · Score: 0

      I can put a whole in your brake line and get the same results

      a whole what?

      --
      http://snappeh.com/blog/ - My Blog, not that any of you care...
    3. Re:Turn off the brakes by ledow · · Score: 1

      A lot of modern cars have or have had installed Bluetooth OBD. This means it's NOT required to have physical access - you can be several km's away with a good antenna. And it also means that such tricks would work in a virtually-evidence-free way (i.e. drive past your target of, say, a princess driving through a French tunnel - turn the car's brakes off remotely by breaking the dodgy "security" on such things, and carry on driving - in the opposite direction, a mile down the road, wherever there's a relatively clear line of sight).

      And when the crash investigators look, all they see is that the ECU disabled the brakes and the car crashed.

    4. Re:Turn off the brakes by drop+table+user · · Score: 2, Interesting

      All of this requires physical access to the car

      That used to be true. While some hacks still require physical access, others can be executed remotely. Cars are getting online and the security problems go with it.

    5. Re:Turn off the brakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These features allow you to turn inject code that will disable brakes,airbags and power steering at some point after two weeks when the car has reached a significant speed; and then overwrite it all back with the original data to remove any evidence.

    6. Re:Turn off the brakes by plover · · Score: 1

      I can put a whole in your brake line and get the same results

      a whole what?

      A whole hole, of course. A partial hole would do nothing.

      --
      John
    7. Re:Turn off the brakes by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      From your link:

      Cars benefit from the fact that they are (hopefully) not connected to the internet (yet) and currently are not able to be remotely accessed," said Rik Fergson, a security analyst at Trend Micro. "So in order to carry out a successful attack you would already need to have physical access to the vehicle, as a break-in or as a mechanic, seem the two most likely scenarios."

      The tires are about the only wireless system. If they start designing remote disgnostics, then you can start worrying.

    8. Re:Turn off the brakes by drop+table+user · · Score: 1

      The tires are about the only wireless system. If they start designing remote disgnostics, then you can start worrying.

      I worry already thank you. Cars are starting to become wireless and, consequently, vulnerable

  8. This is a suprise.... How? by Platinumrat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Typically, I find that the engineers that work in these industries (automotive/transport/white goods/manufacturing) have very little motivation to think about security. The pressure is all on building features into products. They are generally led by electrical or mechanical engineering managers, who are pushed with limited budgets and time-to-market constraints to get something out the door. So they do the most limited research on how to add widget X to the product. As engineers, their dangerous enough to think they know how to program, when most of their experience is microcontrollers or some simple scripting. Security is something that just adds cost in most of their minds.

  9. car jacking by tris203 · · Score: 0

    how about a scam where the type pressure reading is intercepted to make the car tell you the tyre is flat. you get out to check and get car jacked?

    --
    http://snappeh.com/blog/ - My Blog, not that any of you care...
  10. Re:This is a suprise.... How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It will only change when they get hit with some financial loss because of this.

    For example, the all the ECU's tend to be insecure, so the interesting part is if the manufacturer will be hit with a high-$ civil suit after the first murder case committed by hacking a car's controllers to disable the brakes and airbags as soon as the speedometer hits 100mph.

  11. Well.. by The+Creator · · Score: 1

    Plus, someone covertly tracking you is going to be really upset if they can't read your tyre pressure.

    They would want to know about changes so that they can guess where/when you have picked off or left off passagers or cargo.

    --

    FRA: STFU GTFO
  12. Re:This is a suprise.... How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take the number of gadgets we expect to sell, A.

    Multiply it by the probable rate of exploitation, B.

    Multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement, C.

    A x B x C equals X.

    If X is less than the cost of doing it properly, we do a half-arsed job instead.

  13. what about ELEVATORS? by orange47 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I mean, anyone can program them to go to 20000th floor and we could end up in orbit or something.

  14. Tracking is NOT an issue by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "If the sensor IDs were captured at roadside tracking points and stored in databases, third parties could infer or prove that the driver has visited potentially sensitive locations such as medical clinics, political meetings, or nightclubs,"

    The issue described in the article is that you can identify the tires by their RFID tag. This means that you could track cars. The article completely fails to mention that you ALREADY HAVE A FUCKING LICENSE PLATE ATTACHED TO YOUR CAR! The license plate is a unique identifier required by law on all motor vehicles. Anyone who wants to prove you visited location XYZ is simply going to use a $20 camera and get a shot of your license plate. Yeah, getting readings with RFID is a little easier then setting up a camera and some plate scanning software, but neither one is very hard for someone who wants to track you.

    As for "confounding" the control unit, that's not a problem with security, that's a problem with the fucking control unit. The article mentions that once they sent false data to it, they couldn't get the thing to work correctly even after rebooting it. Any device that can't handle junk data is worse than useless. Something being intolerant of noise is not a security problem, it's a stupid engineer problem. Sure, it might not function while you're jamming it with garbage, but if it fails to work after a reboot then you've done something seriously wrong.

    --
    -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    1. Re:Tracking is NOT an issue by delinear · · Score: 1

      Conversely, it's easier for someone up to no good to throw on fake plates than it is for them to switch out all their tyres or spoof the tags.

    2. Re:Tracking is NOT an issue by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Something tells me that the guy going to a nightclub might actually, you know, WANT to be seen. What's the point of going to a nightclub if you are worried about being seen there? The whole point is to be seen.

    3. Re:Tracking is NOT an issue by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      But anyone that runs the plate (some cops now have automatic plate scanners) will see that it doesn't match the car (color, make, model, etc) or that it isn't a valid plate.

      If a scanner picks up some nonsense RFID tag then it's just going to discard it because the tires aren't registered to the car, or even at all.

      Changing a tire really isn't that hard.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
  15. Tire sensors must last years on battery by gmueckl · · Score: 3, Informative

    Tire sensors are built to run on battery for years. You can't easily get to them and change the battery, so these things are extreme low power devices. Each line of code for these controllers costs real world battery lifetime and shortens maintenance cycles. The same goes for extra crypto hardware: every transistor costs. So I'm not surprised that the protocol is not secured to oblivion. There simply isn't room for that unless battery storage capacities rise by an order of magnitude or two. So, a part of me wonders whether this researcher has had a look at the constraints of these systems and understood them before he tried to make the news.

    Still, this is no excuse for being able to corrupt the receiving controller irreparably by some protocol error. These errors can occur normally as transmission errors, not just through deliberate attacks. This is where the sloppy engineering exists and the only part of the story that is actually newsworthy.

    --
    http://www.moonlight3d.eu/
    1. Re:Tire sensors must last years on battery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering that this is a spinning object that we are integrating the RFID tag into, you could easily install a tank circuit (oh dear! A resistor and a capacitor! The cost would be ASTRONOMICAL!), and a simple hoop of copper wire, then wirelessly recharge the wheel using a perminent magnet affixed to the vehicle's frame.

      I believe the principle employed by this idea is called "farraday's law of magnetic induction"

      This would provide unlimited power (over time anyway, direct draw power would still be limited by the magnet, rate of rotation, the number of coil windings, and total system resistance, but-- meh.) to your shitty little RFID chip, and it could be broadcasting Toccata in D Major at the top of it's electromagnetic vocal range, and you would be none the wiser about it.

      Really, why integrate a battery at all, when it is totally uneccesary? All the energy needs for an RFID chip could be supplied from a reasonably sized ceramic capacitor with a rotary pickup like this. Then it's all solid state hardware, with no electrolytes and absurdly long service life, even at full broadcast.

      There was even some research into incorporating what is essentially an "auto tuning" "AM Crystal Radio" into larger RFID devices, so that they would be powered by local AM radio towers in a similar fashion without needing to integrate a battery.

  16. If theres ever wifi to the throttle or brakes... by Viol8 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    ... wake me up , I might be concerned about potential interference from hackers.

    But giving false readings to the tyre pressure unit? Meh, who cares. I don't trust mine anyway and always check the pressures with a proper physical meter.

    What next , a scare story about the door ajar monitering system being compromised?

    *yawn*

  17. Relevant experience by AlecC · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A colleague recently got a call from his wife: her car dash had lit up with warning lights. After about half an hour he traced it to a single fault: an under-inflated tire, presumably reported (correctly) by one of the sensors described in TFO. One tire warning light - OK so far.But the tire warning system had talked to the ABS system, which had decided for inscrutable reasons that it wouldn't work with an underinflated tire. And that had talked to the central monitoring system, which had turned on the "Safety Critical Fault" light. And maybe a few other things. The result was, like Three Mile Island, a single underlying fault had turned into a christmas tree of warnings that an unskilled interpreter (the wife) was terrified of and a skilled engineer (my colleague, a very good hardware engineer) took half an hour to troubleshoot.

    The point being that there is a possibility for a dangerous prank here. By fooling cars into thinking their tires are dangerously underinflated, you can give the driver a serious fright - with possibilities comic to the simple minded, but potentially dangerous if the driver is distracted or does something unexpected like braking to a sudden halt.

    --
    Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    1. Re:Relevant experience by Syberz · · Score: 1

      So one tire pressure sensor causes a christmas tree of lights in the dash...

      Before we had the one Check Engine light for anything and everything that failed, and now we have a bunch of lights when 1 thing fails. That's progress...

      --
      ~Syberz
    2. Re:Relevant experience by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      My wife's Mazda 5 sounded off like the Enterprise going code red the other day because of a low tire alert. Luckily, after all the klaxons stopped sounding, a single 'idiot light' was illuminated - a tire with a '!' over it. Pretty clear. Thank heavens it was that all of her tires were a little low and not just one of them.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    3. Re:Relevant experience by eth1 · · Score: 1

      Fool the sensor? Because tires are SO hard to partially deflate if you just want to trip the sensor.

    4. Re:Relevant experience by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Mine doesn't have a tire pressure light. If a tire is low the "check engine" light comes on, and "check engine" isn't much help at all. Leave the oil cap off, the light comes on. Low tire, the light comes on. Misfiring spark plug, the light comes on. Loose belt, the light comes on (dumb because there's an audible "loose belt" warning even on antique cars). The damned things been on in my car for a year now, and my mechanic can't get it to shut off for more than a week or so.

      I suspect that after I get the outer tie rod bushings replaced and the wheels aligned, the light will go out; I just replaced the inner ones and the outer ones are almost shot as well.

  18. Potential for Misuse by AlecC · · Score: 0, Redundant

    A friend's wife had a problem with her car which caused the dashboard to light up with multiple warning lights. My friend, a highly skilled hardware engineer, traced the fault after half an hour's work: a single underinflated tire, presumably reported by the sensors referred to in TFA. The tire sensor had turned on its own warning light - so far so good. But it had also talked to the ABS, which had decided to turn itself off, producing another red warning. And this had talked to the central monitoring system, which had flagged up a safety critical fault and ordered her to a garage. And maybe some other faults.

    So a malicious prankster could suddenly turn on a christmas tree of warning lights on many passing cars, with results comic to some but potentially dangerous if the driver is distracted and/or does something unexpected like an emergency stop or a swerve to the shoulder.

    --
    Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    1. Re:Potential for Misuse by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      if warning lights on your dash causes you to freak out and flip over your car or drive dangerously, then you should not be driving.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  19. Encrypted ID? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If this encrypted ID works like most password hashes, it'll always be the same sequence, which is just as good for tracking purposes.

  20. A sexist security symposium? by dangitman · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    The researchers will present their findings at the Usenix Security Symposium,

    At first I read that as "Unisex Security Symposium" and wondered why they would have a technical symposium for only one gender. On closer inspection I saw that was not the case, but that only raises more questions, like why the hell would they give their symposium a name that's an anagram of unisex?

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
    1. Re:A sexist security symposium? by delinear · · Score: 1

      At first I read that as "Unisex Security Symposium" and wondered why they would have a technical symposium for only one gender.

      I don't think unisex means what you think it means:

      adj.
      1. Designed for or suitable to both sexes: unisex clothing; unisex hairstyles.
      2. Not distinguished or distinguishable on the basis of sex; androgynous in appearance: cultivated a unisex look.
      n.
      Elimination or absence of sexual distinctions, especially in dress.

    2. Re:A sexist security symposium? by mevets · · Score: 1

      Usenix is a meeting of UNIX eunuchs. The anagram is fitting.

  21. The looks on their faces ... by Joce640k · · Score: 1

    Do they also drop when you point out the 3" tall sequence of number on the front/back of their car is unique to that car and easily readable by roadside cameras, the police or passers-by using built-in organic sensors?

    --
    No sig today...
  22. Why have security when a very limited range should by netsuhi.com · · Score: 1

    Surley the best solution to this is no security at all and just use a very low power signal. How far should it need to go between the tyre and a fixed point on a car (a few cm at the most I think). Would it even be possible for the sensor to be connected to the cars computer via a cable and just eliminate the wireless security hole. Then they just need to have the reciever ignore any signal with values outside the valid range.

  23. It's all FUD by a researcher trying to get noticed by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Sorry but you will not figure out how to bomb a embassy by reading the tire pressure in my front left tire. All this is nothing but FUD and fear-mongering by a researcher that is late on the scene to automotive hacking. Many of us in the automotive hacking circles have done this stuff for well over 30 years. Now suddenly just because one guy who decided to make a lot of noise about it it's a problem?

    it is not a problem, ignore this attention whore.

    You cant send a virus down the tire pressure comms channel to the ECM and cause the car to explode or disable the brakes. (Except for toyota cars... JOKING!) and his demos with wirelessly changing the dashboard and other "hacks" are via a 3rd party wireless device he installed in the car.

    If I buy a new windows server and install VNC without a password can I demonstrate to the world how horribly insecure the newest windows server release is? It's the same thing. Everyone glosses over the fact that none of his hacks are possible without having the target's car for a few days and installing a lot of gear in it.

    The ONLY wireless OEM hack I have ever seen is the one where you blast mp3 files to bluetooth devices with the codes set to 0000 or 1234.. and that was to a BMW. Unfortunately it did not allow me to take control and steer the car or control the brakes. It did allow us to play audi adverts to the guy.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  24. Re:This is a suprise.... How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As engineers, their dangerous enough...

    So just like how Slashdotters have little motivation to think about spelling?

  25. The A380 Runs on WEP by static416 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well the entire A380 doesn't run on WEP, but the entire cabin entertainment system does.

    And having been involved in other parts of the A380 design, I can tell you that data security problems were not even on the product development radar. Non-IT engineering companies view IT the same way that the rest of the world does and generally doesn't design against malicious uses, only accidental failures.

    1. Re:The A380 Runs on WEP by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      That is downright terrifying... Can you imagine an entire cabin of an A380 sitting there *without* their entertainment? Shudder to think...

      --
      +1 Disagree
    2. Re:The A380 Runs on WEP by Finerva · · Score: 0

      Great. now my tires have a wireless key and if they get hacked everyone will know when I'm neglecting to keep optimum tire pressure, how embarrassing! Let's at least get those things on WPA2 with certificates.

  26. If They Do Get It Secure... by rally2xs · · Score: 1

    It just means you won't be able to get in touch with the helpdesk to reset your password so's you can get into your car and actually start it, and you'll likely die of thirst on a Death Valley crossing or freeze to death in some Minnesota winter right outside Frostbite Falls.

  27. we need to get rid of the dealer lock in and let a by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    we need to get rid of the dealer lock in and let any shop be able to fix the car.

  28. Text based by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the first time I have been rick-rolled in a text based fashion.

  29. ABS doesn't, but traction control does by Chirs · · Score: 1

    While it's true that ABS doesn't help, electronic traction control does indeed help significantly. It's also more expensive of course...

  30. some clarifications by Chirs · · Score: 1

    Actually, ABS doesn't always stop in a shorter distance. In gravel, sand, deep snow, and ice, ABS tends to increase stopping distance because locked wheels dig in and stop more quickly.

    Studies were done in Munich comparing ABS and non-ABS taxicabs, and they found that accident rates were similar. It appears that the drivers with ABS took more risks. (http://psyc.queensu.ca/target/chapter07.html)

    In 1996 the IIHS found that vehicles with ABS were less likely to be in accidents causing fatalities in other cars, and more likely to be in accidents causing fatalities in the car with ABS.

    Electronic Stability Control on the other hand has been found to be effective at reducing accidents.

    1. Re:some clarifications by homer_ca · · Score: 1

      >Electronic Stability Control on the other hand has been found to be effective at reducing accidents.

      I've seen those studies too. That just means Americans are more careful about cornering speed than following distance. That's what I've seen. Everybody tailgates like crazy on the freeway, but they slow way down for curves like exit ramps.

    2. Re:some clarifications by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Actually, ABS doesn't always stop in a shorter distance. In gravel, sand, deep snow, and ice, ABS tends to increase stopping distance because locked wheels dig in and stop more quickly.

      Actually, ABS implementations which can detect these conditions and stop anyway exist. They are irrelevant to most people because most people will never drive fast on gravel, and most of the time if you try to stop short on snow or ice without snow tires it doesn't work anyway: you stop more quickly, but not quickly enough to make a difference, and you're much better off steering around the obstacle than trying to stop, which means you need ABS or to be immensely skilled because without ABS you have to combine threshold braking with steering in conditions to which you are not accustomed. Some people of course become accustomed to it, and you might argue that those people are as effective as an idiot with ABS, but that doesn't help idiots nor does it help those people who will eventually become adept while they are still learning how to drive in those conditions.

      The people for whom ABS does not reduce the risk of accidents are those people who drive faster because they have ABS and/or those who do not know that they should steer around things when ABS activates rather than just rolling right into them. ABS makes driving safer for those people who see it as a tool in the toolbox. The vast majority of miles driven are not in ice or snow. The vast majority of miles driven on gravel are not driven at high speed. I have a driveway consisting of loose gravel over packed clay and I've never had the ABS activate while I went down it unless I deliberately tried to make it happen, in either my now-sold 1993 Impreza (four-channel but simple ABS with front and rear rotors of almost the same size) or in my lady's 2000 Astro (similar, but with crap brakes in the back) or the rear wheel ABS of my 1992 F250 Diesel 4x4 XLT Club Cab, which is one of the heaviest pickup trucks ever made. The four door version of the same truck with a 6.9 instead of a 7.3 is probably the only heavier one. I have to stomp to get any ABS action.

      The people who can't drive with ABS can't drive without it either. I think your links back me up on this.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  31. antennae are cheap, cameras are expensive by Chirs · · Score: 1

    It's a lot cheaper to embed RFID readers in the roads as they get repaved then to install cameras at the same number of locations.

  32. not FUD if I can halt your car by Chirs · · Score: 1

    If I can shut your car off by sending it low-powered radio signals, that's a problem.

  33. Re:It's all FUD by a researcher trying to get noti by Tintivilus · · Score: 1

    The ONLY wireless OEM hack I have ever seen is the one where you blast mp3 files to bluetooth devices with the codes set to 0000 or 1234.. and that was to a BMW. Unfortunately it did not allow me to take control and steer the car or control the brakes. It did allow us to play audi adverts to the guy.

    Where'd you find a BMW with factory A2DP?

  34. Re:This is a suprise.... How? by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's the real problem. Until they started adding wireless, the cars were perfectly secured by simple physical means. Security on the wire was irrelevant since the wire was entirely within the car. If you could access the wire, you could just add a tracking device or cut the brake line.

    Now that they're going wireless, security in the communication is starting to actually matter but they have no experience there.

  35. Re:This is a suprise.... How? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    What you're missing is that you don't need to worry about security when no security is needed. If you have a stand-alone PC that isn't networked, all the security you need is a lock on the door. Making the "tire low" light come on could do no damage; no security is needed there, either.

    The trouble with security researchers is they think our homes all need doors like bank vaults and unbreakable glass in the windows.

  36. Re:Why have security when a very limited range sho by MachDelta · · Score: 1

    They have to be wireless because TPMS sensors are actually INSIDE the tire (mounted to the inside of the rim or the base of the valvestem). Also, cars usually only have one TPMS receiver so each sensor needs to be able to transmit at least a few feet to reach a central point on the vehicle. Keep in mind, the "40 meters" cited in TFA is a maximum and not an average. 10 meters is probably a better average.

  37. Re:This is a suprise.... How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think you have the most insightful comment of all. The problem with security people is that they see everything as a big security flaw and they will try to sell the idea of insecurity. That's where they get money from.

    Before it was that they hacked the car's interface. Cars don't need important systems wired to insecure networks. I'd be more concerned if I could actually deflate the tire from the wireless network, which in any case would have to be some quite fast actuator.

    People here complains about security and I bet their houses have glass windows that can be easily cut open and if they have alarms, probably they have wooden walls that probably anyone can just cut through.

  38. Re:It's all FUD by a researcher trying to get noti by PitaBred · · Score: 1

    Of course, your Bluetooth hack is a bug in car's BT system. The system shouldn't be set to pairing mode unless it's manually initiated, so it shouldn't matter what the auth codes are. If the device wasn't previously paired, it shouldn't be accessible. Same issue as with the tires, it's not validating input properly because someone was lazy.

  39. Re:This is a suprise.... How? by NetNed · · Score: 1

    The problem isn't with the engineers or their managers, it's with cost annalists that haggle over things as little as 1 cent or even 1/2 cent in cost to produce a part, all of which engineering time factors in to. Good design of most parts takes a back seat to small amounts of savings per part and it's the same across all car manufacturers that produce large amounts of cars. It's kowtowing to investors trying to extract every dollar of profit out of their investment.

    Look under the hood of any car, truck or van produced in the pass 10 or 15 years and notice how compact everything is. That's not to improve handling or roll center. It's all to save as much material in building the car. If they could do it to the body of the cars they would, but they can't because it need to pass safety tests and people looking to mid and large sized vehicles are not going to buy them is they are too small.

  40. Meatspace is not the Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All other things being equal, it'd be better to not have this vulnerability. Nevertheless, calling the state of automotive wireless security "shoddy" confuses the standards for security on the Internet and in our physical lives. Is the state of bike-locking security shoddy because someone with a few tools could strip off most of the value of the bike even if it's locked up, or that they can perform a DoS attack by beating the shit out of it with a crowbar? No, because in meatspace, trusting the people around us to be decent human beings is a key component of our security infrastructure. I don't walk around in laser-proof goggles just because someone might point a laser in my eyes; I just take a leap of faith and assume no one will do that. The calculus of security for the physical realm is utterly unlike that for the Internet. On the Internet, if there's something you're vulnerable to, there's an asshole willing to exploit that, and the fact that they are thousands of miles away doesn't prevent them from doing so; also, once someone goes to the trouble of writing, say, SSH, I can use that in place of telnet with no additional inconvenience, but countermeasures in physical life tend to incur expense and inconvenience (though this latter issue does not apply in the wireless tire case). E.g., bullet proof vests are not free, and they are bulky. So while using SSH instead of telnet on the Internet makes perfect sense, walking around in bullet proof vests does not, unless you are at some elevated risk of being shot at.

  41. Re:This is a suprise.... How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It all comes down to cost, security means more data to transmit. More things to transmit means more drain on the battery. More drain on the battery means a bigger battery is required. I personally don't want to have to take the tires off my car every year just to change the batteries in my TPMS sensors.

  42. Carjacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would guess that your friend's car is a newer, probably upscale model - just the kind which might be desirable to carjackers. So, the M.O. would be something like: technically savvy carjackers cruise the freeway until they spot a target car, preferably one with just a driver (even better if female); apply a little remote hacking, leading to a confluence of dashboard warnings; driver is at least very concerned if not panicked, and pulls over at the next opportunity (bonus points if this is in the middle of nowhere); carjackers take car, and maybe engage in a little robbery/rape if it looks convenient to do so; in case of rape, maybe it's better not to leave a living witness (victim)...

    Really, I'm not a bad person, I just play one online.

    - T

  43. Excuse Me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Surely I'm not the only person who was shocked to learn that there are /wireless motherfucking sensors/ in the tires on new cars, with corresponding receiving equipment in the car itself.

    Hell, I'm probably the tenth.

    Still, it bears repeating: Why do we need /wireless motherfucking sensors/ inflating (hah) the cost of my tires and my car to tell me something I can check with a three dollar pressure gauge and three minutes?

    There are plenty of mind-bogglingly stupid wastes of technology in existence, but this is the most outrageous I've encountered in weeks.

  44. Working together by Shadyman · · Score: 1

    I'd assume the traction control system would correlate individual wheel drag with low-pressure tire information. Lower tire pressure = More drag. If it gets a reading that's very low, there should be noticeable drag.

    Before we had pressure sensors in tires, we had traction control systems to let us know these things.

    1. Re:Working together by jonwil · · Score: 1

      Blame Ford (more specifically the Ford Explorer and the Firestone tire recall that led to the mandate for tire pressure sensors)

  45. Huh?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who cares about security of tire pressure gauges sending to the car's receiver? Maybe it's such a nonsensical idea, that that's why there is no security. Surely there are better things to research in CS these days. Otherwise, I guess we can conclude that CS research is done and it's time to move on.