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Monetizing Free-To-Play Gaming Models

eldavojohn writes "Last week, a game consultant named David J Edery gave his two cents on why free-to-play (F2P) game models aren't as prolific in the West as they seem to be in the East. Aside from a few unprovable cultural divides, he makes some interesting claims concerning conversion rates of non-paying players to paying players. Some customers pay hundreds for functional items and only a dollar on aesthetic items while other users might be the complete opposite. He also notes that converting a non-paying newbie into a paying customer is not the same as converting a non-paying salty dog. He defines 'aggressive monetization' to mean how much money will advance you 'unfairly' in the game. He focuses on two classes of items: those that provide performance-neutral aesthetics and those that provide performance enhancing or functional advancements. He claims to have access to ARPPU ('average revenue per paying user' per month) rates among several game developers and states that 'more aggressive monetization model and a loyal, niche userbase can hope to generate $50 per paying user per month, on average,' while 'a F2P game that limits itself to flat subscription revenue and/or non-functional items is generally more likely to fall somewhere between $5 and $10 per paying user per month.' Like any good consultant, he also gives ethics a footnote in an otherwise verbose post on monetizing free to play games. Has anyone here had experience pricing items and content in free-to-play games?"

164 comments

  1. Re:Internet connections are shitty in the West. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wait, what?

  2. Golf works like that by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Golfers spend considerable money on things which are supposed to improve their game. It's usually mediocre players buying stuff that won't help them. There's a lot of that in running shoes, too. (Much to the annoyance of Nike, their sponsor, the Stanford University track team trains running barefoot.)

    1. Re:Golf works like that by jmichaelg · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      The only drawback to running barefoot is you can easily pickup hookworms running near dog droppings. Hookworms crawl about a foot a day from where they're first dropped so just being near poop can be enough to infect you.

    2. Re:Golf works like that by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Dogs typically aren't allowed within 10-15m of good running tracks, for that exact reason.

      With university-onwed track, the distance can easily go to 100m+.

    3. Re:Golf works like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are some uber-minimalist footware (such as Vibram FiveFingers) available which can give you all the feeling of barefooting, with protection against stones, small glass shards, etc.

      I own a pair. Until you run in them, you don't know what you are missing.

      Get a pair for like $50.

    4. Re:Golf works like that by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      So do Nike Free shoes. Those would be really great if Nike wouldn't make them for ridiculously slender feet only.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    5. Re:Golf works like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So stray dogs read, and then obey, the signs saying to keep dogs away?

    6. Re:Golf works like that by Yvan256 · · Score: 3, Funny

      They do in Canada.

    7. Re:Golf works like that by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      Vibram five fingers are the best shoe ever in the history of the world. Barefoot its the best way to travel.In our urban world though you need some armor for your feet. Those shoes seriously changed my life. They caused me to get in to running. My feet are way stronger without the arch support. anyway, not to sound like a commercial but get those shoes.

      --
      Balderdash!
    8. Re:Golf works like that by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Yes, I suppose $85 is like $50. Clearly, they're both in the same units, for instance.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    9. Re:Golf works like that by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but that glosses over the fact that it takes 6 months or longer for your feet to get strong enough to handle the shoes. Or that they teach you how to run with good posture is because if you don't you will hurt your feet. It's like an instant feedback pain training method. And they get sweaty and smell bad. But yeah, if none of those things bother you, the shoes are great.

      --
      Qxe4
    10. Re:Golf works like that by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      it also takes time to train if you want to lift heavier weights. You have had arch support for your whole life so of course you gotta take time to train your foot muscles. Mine don't get sweaty, and so what if you gotta wash your shoes every so often? The health benefits on your joints are more important.

      --
      Balderdash!
    11. Re:Golf works like that by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      The sweaty and smelly arguement shouldn't really be of much concern as Vibrams are supposed to be machine washable. I wish my normal sneakers were machine washable without falling apart.

    12. Re:Golf works like that by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yeah they are machine washable, but the uppers aren't the most sturdy material, and they tend to fall apart as well. My Vibrams tend to smell far worse than any normal pair of shoes I've had

      --
      Qxe4
  3. It is a balancing act by luvirini · · Score: 1

    If a game that is billed as f2p is too agressive in making things cost more people will be annoyed and leave, on the other hand make it opposite and you do not get enough money.

    That balance is ofcourse modified by the way to "force" the user to buy things. For example if the grind without buying some items is way too slow the level of dissatisfied people will likely be higher, than if the grind normally is "slow" and the acceleration items for example change it to "medium"

    1. Re:It is a balancing act by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If it is a game like the traditional fantasy MMO, then high end raiders and solid group dungeon runners will start resenting people who can just hit a store and buy with real-life currency items that are up to par with them. If the game wants to be another Second Life, that is one thing, but I'm sure the high end players in WoW would start leaving in droves if Blizzard had sets of armor for sale with stats that were equal to items earned in raids/groups.

      Appearance stuff is different. People buying non-combat pets are looked at money wasters, but it doesn't affect the game. Mounts are iffish. In a way, they are a bargain for WoW players who have a lot of alts because it means all 50 chars on the account have some type of steed. This also goes for appearance armor. If someone wants to have their mage wear plate for $10, go for it, as long as the armor doesn't give a stat advantage.

      When it gets over the line with traditional MMOs is when someone who spends lots of cash at the store starts having a PvE or PvP advantage. What would kill a MMO is an item that as significant as game play as journeyman's boots in the early days of EQ1 [1] being in the store. This means that one would have to purchase stuff in order to keep their membership in a raiding guild, or be on the top tier (and trust me, in some MMOs, having an item is as important if not more than having a decent gearscore in WoW [2].)

      [1]: In the early, pre-Luclin days of EQ 1, jboots mean the difference between booking it to a zone if one got overwhelmed with mobs, versus certain death. Your membership in raiding guilds depended oftentimes on having this item.

      [2]: Gearscore is probably the most critical thing people judge on in WoW. You can be a moron, but if you have a high enough GS, you had to at least have survived enough high end fights to earn good equipment, assuming the character was not ebayed.

    2. Re:It is a balancing act by Cylix · · Score: 1

      I have known several of those types of games.

      Sufficiently skilled players can operate without purchasing any items and amass quite a bit of wealth. Generally, I found the paid items merely increased the rate at which you would acquire items.

      That said there were also two other types of players that were competitive without spending any amount of revenue.

      Those would generate rigged matches with multiple other interested parties and pray on weaker newer characters.

      Those would take whatever they could via illicit actions.

      All in all there are basically five archetypes with only one actually paying. The three communities of thieves, pros and scum generally did not like the fourth archetype to any degree. The last category consisted of the newbs who didn't fit into any genre as of yet. They were the weakest and we feasted on their bones.

      --
      "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    3. Re:It is a balancing act by luvirini · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Personally I think DDO gets it about right.

      There is enough free content that you can make it to maximum level without paying anything, but you will have to run through the same quests way many more times than someone who pays the monthly subscription so it will be more boring in the long run.

      Also you can buy things that speed up your level gain by 20% and items that help you to not have to grind to get certain things that people spend a lot of grinding time on like crafting ingredients.

      Overall the option to spend money to speed up things that would take really many hours of repetition is fine, as they still allow you to do the grinding as option. This allows both people with little money and lot of time and lot of money and little time to particiapate. But still raid loot is way better than anything in the shop.

      The number of people there again helps to keep people intrested as there are groups to adventure with.

    4. Re:It is a balancing act by shnull · · Score: 1

      i think Turbine DDO and frogster Rom are pretty decent examples of what works, you dont get any epic gear for cash, but you don't have to grind for standard items, and you can get faster lvling potions, containers and improved running speed (mounts etc) for real cash ... to me it's pretty well balanced. they both can use a lot more content tho, but then, can't we all :) I've been playing DDO (casually) for about a year now and so far i paid 150 euros (about) on content and extra character classes. That's about the same as a subscription i guess, diff. being, i almost have all content xept a few high level packs and they don't whip out new zones every month so after 2 years it gets cheaper(ish?) i like the game very much anyway, on a personal note

      --
      beware he who denies you access to information for in his mind, he already deems himself to be your master (SMAC-ish)
    5. Re:It is a balancing act by Darkman,+Walkin+Dude · · Score: 1

      If it is a game like the traditional fantasy MMO, then high end raiders and solid group dungeon runners will start resenting people who can just hit a store and buy with real-life currency items that are up to par with them.

      They can resent as much as they like, unless they are contributing equal or more money than the people who pay, the game manufacturers have no reason at all to cater to them.

    6. Re:It is a balancing act by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      Please keep explaining me about this theory of yours. Which are the 5 archetypes and 4 thieves or what?

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    7. Re:It is a balancing act by bhcompy · · Score: 1

      pre-Velious, not pre-Luclin(well, that's technically still pre-Luclin). It may have even been pre-Kunark when they nerfed jboots. There was also the Manastone(pre-Kunark). But you could just buy them on ebay instead, which was very popular at the time for items.

    8. Re:It is a balancing act by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      Was gonna say, I started between the release of Velious and Luclin and Jboots were cool but crazy hard to get and not worth the time to farm in most cases. Now when cheap mounts became available those were practically required for raids where you could use them. The ability to constantly meditate for mana regen while moving and casting was an unintended bug that the developers couldn't bring themselves to take back.

  4. Anecdote by TriezGamer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've played numerous F2P MMORPGs (at least 20) that operate on a micro-transaction model. While many of them were not good enough games to justify payment of any kind, those that have gotten to my wallet have done so in varying degrees. I have sunk over $400 each into three separate games, and one of those three has exceeded $1000. If you take the $400 figure, even at a $15/mo subscription [above average for a subscription based game], I have paid the equivalent of over 2 years of subscription time to each of these three games. I am not an exception to the rule. I have met multitudes of people in each of these three games that have invested at least as much as I have, and no shortage of people who have invested at least an order of magnitude more into them. For each person who isn't paying, I can assure you, someone is making up for it enough to turn it into a major profit.

    1. Re:Anecdote by Cylix · · Score: 4, Funny

      My therapist once said I spend an overly healthy amount of cash on item transactions. To this I replied, "You are only saying that because you are a nub and wish you were as half as pro as me."

      --
      "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    2. Re:Anecdote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just curious, what's the one that you found worth $1k?

    3. Re:Anecdote by TriezGamer · · Score: 1

      Pangya. [ http://pangya.ntreev.net/ ] It's a golf game, so not technically an MMORPG in the traditional sense. It makes little to no attempt at realism (best well-known comparison I can think of is Hot Shots Golf, or Mario Golf), and contains RPG elements in character development.

      It has fantastical shots, such as a Tomahawk shot that simply stops precisely where it lands, but travels an extra dozen or so yards to compensate. So yeah, realistic it is not.

      The game has a VERY heavy skill element to it, as the game engine has no random factors added to your shots [every other online golf game I've found does this]. This is the aspect of the game that appeals to me the most -- You can never blame anyone but yourself for your losses. The learning curve is pretty easy [and the tutorial is fairly decent too], though learning all the various trick shots is more difficult for some than it is for others.

      I regularly recommend that players invest a one-time $10 into the game if you play it past Beginner rank, as the Twin Feather club set, once upgraded (costs in-game currency to upgrade) will allow you to compete much better with other players, stat-wise. The clubs offer a very well-balanced amount of power, accuracy and control. They're probably the most-used purchasable equipment item.

      The second-highest recommendation I could make for cash investment would be a set of clothes that you like that has a lot of control or control slots. They typically will run you between $10 and $20. Control doesn't technically raise your character's capabilities beyond those of other players, but it DOES slow down the speed of the shot bar, allowing a much higher level of precision in your play. It's the only stat that really increases your personal skill instead of your character's potential.

      With both the clothes and the clubs as a Junior rank character [attainable in about 10-20 hours of play], the difference, statistically, between your character and a veteran who has played a couple years, will be about 8-16 yards on your drive.

    4. Re:Anecdote by TriezGamer · · Score: 1

      A fair warning, however: While a $30 investment is sufficient to put yourself at a competitive level (with practice), investing further into the game is extremely helpful.

      The majority of my cash invested into the game has been during scratch items that I really wanted, or invested into cards. These are both lottery items -- the scratch lottery tickets and card packs. Both items are earnable in-game, but are VERY difficult to get anything functional out of due to the fact that they're both essentially lotteries and you do not earn them in-game quickly. When items come up that I want in the scratch lottery and I can spare it, I'll sometimes drop $50 or so on tickets for it. I no longer invest into card packs, though that's because the only card left that I want is rare enough that I'm not going to try for it.

      Things that come out of these lotteries can occasionally be superior to any other items obtainable in the game. There is a third lottery type more recently introduced as well that also contains superior items, but I haven't had the money recently to invest in it, so I'm not sure how good it's winning rates are. This last lottery type cannot be earned in-game and must be purchased.

      You can spend a lot and get nothing, or you can spend a little and get lucky.

      My final point, and this one is probably the most important of all: Beyond your initial $30 for clubs and clothes, that ultimate capability of your character is based more on your personal skill than anyone else's monetary investment. The edge you gain from most paid items is slight, and usually just makes it a bit easier to hit an accurate shot. Due to the lack of a random factor, personal skill trumps any gear.

      Apparently I can rant about this game all day. I'll stop now.

    5. Re:Anecdote by admiral201 · · Score: 1

      Is there some reason you don't share what these three good games are with the rest of us who want to know which F2P games are good enough to actually play with real money?

    6. Re:Anecdote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      He then handed you a bill for more than you've ever paid for games and said "Same time next week then."

    7. Re:Anecdote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I can attest to the long-term addictiveness of the game. I've been playing Pangya since 2006, over 4 different servers (South-East Asia, Korea, Japan and the main US one) and I just can't seem to put it down.

      The game is totally free-to-play and very little investment is needed to to be on-par with 85% of the game's population (as TriezGamer has elaborated) and most of the other items in game are very optional.

      However, the game's main source of income is really from the lottery aesthetic items of which there are three types; in-game currency based, spending-based (spend 1000 points on any in-game item and get one scratch card free) and direct-buy based (spend 2000 points for a chance). Of the three different lottery types, two are tradable in-game; and those items form up the bulk of the game's in-game economy. It's actually a model that seems to work quite well since half the fun of the game is really about trying to get all those "rare" items.

      Over the past 4 years playing it, apart from the initial investment for decent clubs and clothes, I've sunk in about maybe $500, and that's just on my student allowance (sorry dad, I did skip quite a lot of meals despite you telling me not to). I just started working, earning a meagre internship salary, and out of that I've just spent about $200 in two months, trying for the lottery items.

      Admittedly, the F2P model is great for the long-term. As long as the game is relatively fun and easy to get in to, bundle it with the right revenue generators and have a good community interaction (sadly, something that is a bit out of control by the devs), it'll result in a decent long-term revenue stream. I know of pro players of Pangya that are still playing and spending quite a bit of money even after 5-6 years playing the damn thing and reaching pretty much the pinnacle of the game. It's just a game that you can't put down.

    8. Re:Anecdote by TriezGamer · · Score: 1

      As I elaborated below, Pangya is the main one. However, I have spent a fair chunk of money on Mabinogi as well -- it's more action oriented, and has some glaring flaws, but I love it's style and the fast-paced gameplay.

      The third is Ragnarok Online, which is a very polarizing game -- it's extremely grind-heavy and much of the end-game content is caught up in guild vs guild PVP. It used to be subscription-based, but now has multiple official NA F2P servers that operate on microtransactions.

  5. They had free-to-play in arcades when I was a kid by noidentity · · Score: 5, Funny

    When I was a kid, they had free-to-play games in the arcades. This was where you stood in front of the machine and pressed buttons while the demo played.

  6. Re:Internet connections are shitty in the West. by odies · · Score: 0

    It's correct, for US at least. Europe is pretty good. I hope you aren't thinking Asian connections are shitty because they are slow to you? They obviously are fast for everyone living there and you can get up to 1 gbit connections in several countries.

    However, other thing is while there are people with personal computers, most people use web cafes. It wouldn't make sense for them to buy games, nor would companies really like nor make the same amount of money if the web cafes just buy the games once. When all the items or game subscriptions are tied to individual accounts, players will spend money no matter if they play at home or web cafe.

  7. I buy games, not items in games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I like to buy my game, and immerse myself in the content to have fun. The painful part of parting with cash is complete.

    Buying "items" in a game kills the fun, in the same way that paying for sex kills my boner.

    1. Re:I buy games, not items in games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like to buy my game, and immerse myself in the content to have fun. The painful part of parting with cash is complete.

      Buying "items" in a game kills the fun, in the same way that paying for sex kills my boner.

      You usually pay afterwards, so isn't that only good?

    2. Re:I buy games, not items in games by Phrogman · · Score: 1

      That is the western model for game sales. Its worked so far, but now the companies face more serious competition in fighting for customers dollars. In the MMO world there has been relatively little offered in the way of new games, probably because of the huge costs and development time required to produce a new major MMO. Of the titles coming out a few are seeking to do RMT monetization of items - the new Star Wars game coming from Bioware for instance. Why? Presumably because in Asia they have seen this model work well.
      There are definitely tons of players of MMOs out there who are willing to fork over big bucks to get items that let them win more in PvP. I have seen it in a few games I have played. I view these people as pathetic cheats, but it doesn't change the fact that they get the top end items and can dominate in PvP. Either the companies decide to support this in game and profit from it themselves, or they let it happen as a blackmarket and lose out on the money changing hands. If there is a way to cheat in an MMO, players will find it and exploit it, and other players will find a way to make money from it. Very few players seem to be interested in playing a balanced and fair game. The experience of virtual victory over an opponent is too highly valued, no matter what needs to be done to acquire it.
      I think companies need to strike a balance to keep their players from leaving in droves though. If "The Sword of PK Slaying" is available as an award from a large scale raid, and offers great bonuses in PvP it will be desirable. If its a very rare drop, it will be even more desirable since it confers a substantial advantage and most other players will not have it. If the company running the game then turns around and makes an equivalent item available in the Online store for the game for say $20, then the perceived value of the original item will drop considerably. Its no longer rare, it no longer confers the same advantage etc. If the 2 items are stats-wise the same, but the raid gained one has a distinct (and shinier) appearance, you can at least have the boasting rights for having won it in the raid, and that will help compensate a bit. If the company sells the equivalent item at $125 in the online store, the original will retain its value and the people who shell out the $125 to have the equivalent item (because they are too lazy to earn it the hard way) can still get the same item but with a much larger barrier to acquisition, then more of a balance is struck. The players who earn it by repeatedly doing a difficult raid until they win the item can feel like they have achieved something (and MMOs are in large part about the virtual sense of achieving a goal), while the people who lack the time but have the money can still get the item they want, but far fewer of them will do so.
      The problems arise, IMHO, when the store starts selling items which confer a substantial advantage but which are not available in game, or for which the chance of obtaining the item is extreme to say the least.

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
    3. Re:I buy games, not items in games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for sharing, gramps, but "I prefer the traditional paradigm for $some_activity" comments are about as interesting as talking about last night's dream. But by all means, continue to tell us all about how you "like to talk people in real life" and that's why you won't use facebook, or how you'd rather go to the nice bookstore down the street because you won't "trust a website with your credit card." We're listening, sort of, at least we're paying enough attention so we can use the next lull in the conversation to politely excuse ourselves and talk to someone more interesting.

  8. Missing dimension: number of players by loufoque · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is missing an important dimension. When he says aggressive monetization gives 5 times more money per player, he forgets to say that it also reduces the number of players, because some players are simply put off by the idea that the game is not fair.
    Therefore it might not be more profitable.

    1. Re:Missing dimension: number of players by dmomo · · Score: 1

      Without numbers on how many players actually "leave" as opposed to "simply don't go on to pay", you can't really tell how much of an impact that has. But, from my experience, nagging people (popunders, spam, etc) unfortunately in general does result in greater profit. I think Puzzle Pirates does a great job at making things free, while still trying to get people to buy premiums.

    2. Re:Missing dimension: number of players by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tend to stick to games that focus on selling people non-game changing items. And will even buy some of it myself. But once you can buy your way to the top.....

      Why play?

      Buy your way to the top of a virutal world? You're still a dork in a video game.
      Buy your way to the top of the real world... You can pay hot chicks to be human furniture.

      Far greater payoff. Same currency used.

      Why are you playing that game again?

    3. Re:Missing dimension: number of players by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      World of Warcraft is generally a good example here. They're been selling aesthetic items that give no advantage gameplay-wise, such as various pets, and That Retarded Horse (google it).

      They also sell leveling aid through recruit-a-friend program, which is more functional. But in the end, the real meat of the game, end-game is completely untouched by anything extra they sell. You can't get more powerful items by buying, or increase your drop chance or anything like that, and even recruit a friend experience bonus ends at level 60, while level cap is 80.

      And there is a wide sentiment among players and officially acknowledged by blizzard that if any kind of gameplay-altering for-sale items enter endgame, blizzard could kiss them good bye.

    4. Re:Missing dimension: number of players by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>because some players are simply put off by the idea that the game is not fair.
      Therefore it might not be more profitable.

      Indeed. Stronghold Kingdoms is an awesome, awesome game. (You can join the alpha test at http://www.strongholdkingdoms.com/) Think Stronghold, but in MMORPG form. Build up your village, build a castle, attack your neighbors, trade, etc.

      However, it's a F2P game that allows you to buy "cards" which do things like tripling your production for a day. Right now the use of cards is unlimited (though because it's an alpha test, you're given an allowance of them instead of buying them with real money.) So the monetization advantage appears to be x3 or so, give or take. *However*, the game also allows you to cash in cards in order to get research points (the main benefit of leveling is that you get 3 research points with which to choose new technologies - think Civ.) Think around $20 per research point, though prices aren't fixed yet.

      So for people with open wallets, you can essentially buy as many levels as you want in the game. If it is released in such a state, I refuse to play it since there literally will not be any way to compete professionally without spending just as much money as they do on the game. A person who starts the game by buying $320 of research points will have triple stone and wood production for the entire span of the campaign. A person who spends $480 dollars at launch will also have half-price buildings on everything. A person who spends $640 will have all his buildings constructed twice as fast. Then on top of that, he can play cards to triple again that production and building speed.

      So a person with an open wallet will have about a 10x advantage over someone else.

      If you've ever played an RTS, you know what a tremendous advantage this is. Worse, campaigns only last about 4 or 5 months, so you get to do this all over again once someone "wins" (by getting elected King of England, presumably.) Drop a K every so often? No thanks. I'd rather not play it at all. Right now, it's only fair because everyone is given an allowance of $80/week to play with.

    5. Re:Missing dimension: number of players by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      It seems that everything is aggressively monetized these days, why should we expect games, online or otherwise, to be different?

    6. Re:Missing dimension: number of players by esaulgd · · Score: 1

      Aren't WoW players deluding themselves? You can already buy yourself an advantage at the endgame (or any other stage) through unauthorized Real Money Trading.
      All online games where transfer of resources (either in-game or out-of-game, by handing over login info) is possible are being monetized by one party or another.

    7. Re:Missing dimension: number of players by maroberts · · Score: 1

      If you're a little canny in your Auction House trading, money is never a problem; its perhaps unfortunate that many people don't realise this.

      I keep at least one alt near the Auction House trading, who gains far more gold than my questing (I'm not a great quester but...). This week, I've earned about 4,000g (and spent about 1,000), and the character that earned 3,500 of this never left Stormwind City.

      --

      Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
      Karma: Chameleon

    8. Re:Missing dimension: number of players by synapse1712 · · Score: 1

      Gold does not confer any noteable advantage at all in the endgame (either raiding or serious PVP). There's extremely little in the way of high-end gear that can be purchased for gold, most needs to be acquired in ways directly related to combat. True, a certain amount of gold is necessary to keep one's equipment in order and purchase useful consumables, but it doesn't require massive effort to acquire. Beyond that, the difference between myself with fifty thousand carefully hoarded gold pieces and someone with one or two thousand is negligable for the purposes of the endgame content.

    9. Re:Missing dimension: number of players by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      All online games where transfer of resources (either in-game or out-of-game, by handing over login info) is possible are being monetized by one party or another.

      Correct, but money's impact on end game gameplay is nonexistent. The best gear you can buy for cash is usually at least one tier behind the raiding tier and those are just one-two pieces, and PvP gear that you can get for gold is at least 5 tiers behind and has never been even borderline viable.

      What you need gold for in end game is mostly enchanting and gemming gear, which while expensive does not differentiate between a guy who just has bare minimal sum to buy the best gems and enchantments and a guy who has 100 times the sum. And minimal sum can be easily gained by just questing, or even raiding now that bosses drop meaningful sums of gold for each raid member alongside other loot.

      All end game gear in the game is earned by tokens that drop from bosses and loot that drops off bosses directly. All high end PvP gear is handed out judging on how well your arena team did that particular week and has a minimum requirement of how good you are (minimal required team and personal rating) and your battleground success for off-pieces.

      This is why blizzard is doing so well with hardcore crowd. They virtually eliminated all paths of advancement except to play the game and gain stuff on your own. The only still unplugged hole is ability to purchase an entire character(which will obviously get banned if they find out), which has a very limited audience for obvious reasons.

    10. Re:Missing dimension: number of players by Demonix · · Score: 1

      yeah, and if you add in the glacial pace of gameplay plus the wolf/sheep problem of pvp games, this thing is going to be DOA if the three devs working on it don't get their head out of their asses.

      --
      when all is said and done, all a man has left are his blades and his honor.
    11. Re:Missing dimension: number of players by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      Which is a shame, really, since something like the game is one I've wanted to play or write myself for a long time.

  9. Long time lurker, first time poster. by gamricstone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I created this account specifically to reply to this post. He defines 'aggressive monetization' to mean how much money will advance you 'unfairly' in the game. Does not accurately represent the linked article. In the first paragraph: For the purposes of this post, I'm defining "aggressive" as the sale of items that impact gameplay and/or speed up a player's progress, in addition to other, less controversial premium features like aesthetic items and account personalization. Nowhere does it mention the word 'fair' or any variation of the word in the entire article. I have no comment on the linked article's content, just that slashdot has been filled with crap like this more and more often lately. I won't be continuing to visit slashdot(and my brand new account will go to waste) if this sort of posting does not stop. That is all.

    --
    The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. - Einstein
    1. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by gamricstone · · Score: 5, Funny

      Dear god I didn't realize it would remove every newline I inserted manually.

      --
      The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. - Einstein
    2. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Er, you are the one that's confused. He says later:

      From my limited research, it seems that a game with a more aggressive monetization model and a loyal, niche userbase can hope to generate $50 per paying user per month, on average. (The term “average” is somewhat misleading — most users might pay $5 a month, while a small percentage of wealthier players might pay hundreds.) Obviously, these dollar figures will vary from game to game, depending on design, but they’re a useful generalization for the purposes of this post.

      On the other hand, a F2P game that limits itself to flat subscription revenue and/or non-functional items is generally more likely to fall somewhere between $5 and $10 per paying user per month. You can expect the F2P equivalent of WoW (whatever that is) to do better than this, and you might expect a game that is largely focused on aesthetics to do better as well, but again, this is a useful generalization for most F2P games.

      Emphasis mine.

    3. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to slashdot.

      Next time hit "Options" and choose "Plain Old Text" posting style.

    4. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 0, Troll

      What's wrong with your enter key?

      That's what I prefer to use.

      Enter

      Enter

      Enter

      See?

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    5. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by gamricstone · · Score: 1

      I have no idea what is wrong with it. My comment was clearly formatted with lines inbetween before I posted. Pressing enter just sends an extra blank character, which tells the browser to render it the next line down. Or at least that is how I've always understood it. I post on other websites, and have never had this problem lol. Lets see if this is a line down.

      --
      The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. - Einstein
    6. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Pressing enter just sends an extra blank character, which tells the browser to render it the next line down. Or at least that is how I've always understood "

      You understood wrong. You're posting in html. See the "Allowed HTML" text under the Preview button?

      Try putting a <p> tag between lines.

      You can also bold and/or italicize, etc.

      Doing so earns you 1 credit per post in slashgame credits. Only 42,000,666 posts to win a prize. (Or use the spaceballs cheat code 1-2-3-4-5).

      Or you can "level up" by buying a subscription.

    7. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by cbhacking · · Score: 3, Informative

      Default posting mode for a new account is HTML, which ignores most whitespace (converts any amount of any type of whitespace into a single space, more precisely). You can either manually insert <p></p> or <br /> tags, or you can switch to Plain Old Text posting method. POT method still lets you embed HTML, but it will also auto-convert new lines in your comment "source" to new lines in the result that gets posted.

      Also, always preview before posting.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    8. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by gamricstone · · Score: 1
      Thanks I will try that.

      (right now in fact)

      I've been visiting slashdot for at least a year or two. Before I registered (today) I never realized how complex of a website it is.

      --
      The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. - Einstein
    9. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by fbartho · · Score: 1

      You need to hit the "Options" button below the reply box, and select "Plain Old Text" as your preferred posting mode.

      See? This is on a newline. All I did was hit the enter (return) key on my keyboard. A

      --
      Gravity Sucks
    10. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been visiting slashdot for at least a year or two.

      Oh, yeah, you're gonna fit in here just fine, Sparky.

    11. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is what I see:

      What's wrong with your enter key?That's what I prefer to use.EnterEnterEnterSee?

    12. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I've never created content for this site until now but if the quality of the content doesn't improve I'm never reading this site again."

    13. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Don't let the ACs get to you - it takes a while if you're used to how things are done elsewhere.

      Like the crappy "web 2.0" interface - avoid it by setting your preferences to "nested, browse at -1 (raw and uncut)".

      Since you're now registered, keep a slashdot user journal. It comes in handy. Also stick something in your signature. Impress us with your wit and wisdom (or not, if you're an Ubuntu user).

    14. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by amentajo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From the sound of it, the GP's problem isn't primarily with the quality of the submissions, but rather with the integrity and accuracy of the summaries that do end up getting posted as stories, after ostensibly being reviewed.

      Look at the quote from the summary that the GP pointed out:

      He defines 'aggressive monetization' to mean how much money will advance you 'unfairly' in the game.

      In less direct words, it sounded like the GP was pointing out that the word "unfairly" is in quotation marks, yet the notion of fairness isn't even mentioned in the article, let alone the word "unfairly". This is not a good thing; it is ascribing to the author of the article an idea that he did not espouse, which is not a very nice thing to do.

      I don't have a major problem with Soulskill about this; it's easily explained by oversight. Oversights happen. But I do recognize that putting words into an author's mouth is bad, and I think that's what the GP was saying here. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    15. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by amentajo · · Score: 1

      This is not a good thing; it is ascribing to the author of the article an idea that he did not espouse, which is not a very nice thing to do...

      But I do recognize that putting words into an author's mouth is bad...

      Heh... after reading that comment again, it seems that I need to add another unit test to my post-Preview test suite:

      Accuracy check... pass!
      Coherence check... pass!
      Grammar/Punctuation check... pass!
      Vocabulary usage check... pass!
      Redundancy check... failed!
      Redundancy check... failed!

      2 tests failed. Please click "Continue Editing" and try again.

    16. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by amentajo · · Score: 1

      See? This is on a newline. All I did was hit the enter (return) key on my keyboard. A

      Please tell me that "A" at the end was a joke in a comment about how easy it is to type comments on Slas

    17. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by fbartho · · Score: 1

      Actually, that one we can blame on a timing / implementation glitch in the dynamic interface for commenting now. I clicked the preview button and for some reason the request was taking a long time to complete. I started to think I wanted to add something to the end of my comment. Right as I started to type it turned into the read-only preview bubble (with my original comment /sin/ 'A'). Apparently in spite of that, it still submitted my now edited text as the true comment, even though I still have the tab open and it clearly shows that my UI thinks that the "A" was not part of the comment.

      --
      Gravity Sucks
    18. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by gamricstone · · Score: 1
      Spot on. I have nothing against the poster, just the frequency of which I see this kind of mistake on slashdot lately(assuming it was an oversight). To reiterate in different words it feels to me like the summaries nowadays either have a spin on them or are not edited as carefully.

      Advancing faster in a game because you paid money does not translate into unfair in every circumstance. For instance if I spend 3 hours a day playing some game with my friend, then he logs off but I play for a total of 6 hours we will eventually drift apart in experience. Now if he purchases an item which gives him double experience, he gains experience at an effective rate of 6 hours per day. In this scenario, it wouldn't be unfair, because it would still allow me to play on an equal footing with my friend. I'm sure others could relate to this hypothetical situation. The author of the article may have considered this, and worded his article accordingly. The summary makes a judgment, which the article does not.

      On a side note, what does GP stand for?

      --
      The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. - Einstein
    19. Re:Long time lurker, first time poster. by amentajo · · Score: 1

      On a side note, what does GP stand for?

      Grandparent

  10. "Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by kervin · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Do we really need the verbification?

    1. Re:"Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by Ironchew · · Score: 1

      Do we really need a snarky Grammar Nazi in this discussion?

    2. Re:"Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      profit /prft/
      -noun
      1.
      Often, profits.
      a.
      pecuniary gain resulting from the employment of capital in any transaction. Compare gross profit, net profit.
      b.
      the ratio of such pecuniary gain to the amount of capital invested.
      c.
      returns, proceeds, or revenue, as from property or investments.
      2.
      the monetary surplus left to a producer or employer after deducting wages, rent, cost of raw materials, etc.: The company works on a small margin of profit.
      3.
      advantage; benefit; gain.

      -verb (used without object)
      4.
      to gain an advantage or benefit: He profited greatly from his schooling.
      5.
      to make a profit.
      6.
      to take advantage: to profit from the weaknesses of others.
      7.
      to be of service or benefit.
      8.
      to make progress.
      -verb (used with object)
      9.
      to be of advantage or profit to: Nothing profits one so much as a sound education.

      Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profit

    3. Re:"Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 3, Funny

      monetize
      –verb (used with object), -tized, -tizing.
      1. to legalize as money.
      2. to coin into money: to monetize gold.
      3. to give the character of money to.
      4. Economics . to convert (a debt, esp. the national debt) into currency, esp. by issuing government securities or notes.

      Also, especially British , monetise .

      Origin:
      1875–80; L mont ( a ) money + -ize

      —Related forms
      monetization, noun

      It's not a verbification, it's a legitimate word used correctly in the summary, you ignorant, misguided wannabe grammar nazi.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    4. Re:"Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's even worse when the grammar nazi is completely wrong.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    5. Re:"Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      He was talking about "monetizing", a word from the 1800's with roots in Latin.

      In other words, he's a dumbass.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    6. Re:"Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by Dumnezeu · · Score: 0, Troll

      Does it really fucking matter? Or is the question too hard for you to comprehend?

      --
      Yes, it's sarcasm. Deal with it!
    7. Re:"Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by Kingrames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Look, this verbificationismness needs to stop. Let people use wordy things the way they want. Be tolerantish.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    8. Re:"Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      Ah, I was assuming that the section he had in quotes was what he was complaining about.

    9. Re:"Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by kervin · · Score: 2, Funny

      Look, this verbificationismness needs to stop. Let people use wordy things the way they want. Be tolerantish.

      Funny, and I actually agree. This is why I questionized my original response.

    10. Re:"Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Nope, what he has in quotes is what he wants to use in stead of "monetizing" which, as I said in my reply, is not in any way, shape, or form a verbification. It actually is a verb with a noun form (monetization).

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    11. Re:"Profiting from" Free-To-Play Gaming Models by kervin · · Score: 1

      It's not a verbification, it's a legitimate word used correctly in the summary, you ignorant, misguided wannabe grammar nazi.

      Don't you think your response is a little emotional considering the topic?

      I mean, take a step back. We're discussing language here...

  11. and thus dies the soul of gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The days of people making games as a labour of love are almost gone. Not totally, but close. It's now all about "monitization" and figuring out exactly how much you can get people to shell out for on an ongoing basis and companies keeping more and more control over the game after you buy it.

    I think the golden days of computer gaming were 70's through early to mid 90's. Then, like Hollywood and RIAA music and much else which ends up with Big Money behind it, financial interests ripped out its soul.

    1. Re:and thus dies the soul of gaming by mlts · · Score: 1

      The problem is not just the MBAs who failed ITIL running the game companies, it is the fact that there is a great barrier to entry to the market. The days of writing some vector graphics in BASIC, making copies of the floppies, and selling them with a photocopied manual in a Ziploc bag are long gone. It takes millions of dollars in licensing fees for the engine and artists to do the graphics that is required for even the most entry level game.

      It would be nice to see "interactive movies" where the plot came first and the gameplay was centered more about advancing the storyline as opposed to just being a cookie cutter FPS sequel. However, the market has spoken, and gamers would rather have another Halo, Madden, Sims, or Call of Duty with the same gameplay as the previous iteration (maybe with a random zombie with a new superpower tossed in) as opposed to completely new and original IP.

    2. Re:and thus dies the soul of gaming by localman57 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The days of people making games as a labour of love are almost gone.

      Another way of saying this is:

      The days of people wanting to play games made as a labour of love are almost gone

      The general public likes games with high production value, and is willing to pay for them. That's the way it goes. However, I think your statement is also false. I would say:

      The environment where people make games as a labour of love is becoming highly fragmented

      It was easy when everybody you knew had a Commodore 64 or Apple II. You wrote a game, put it on a disk, and showed it to your friend. Now, the market for homebrew is very, very fragmented. There's homebrew for every console imaginable out there. There's homebrew for Flash games, homebrew for iPhone, homebrew for Android. And there's still homebrew for all the legacy platforms (something that didn't exist during your "golden days" because there were no legacy platforms!). In terms of shear numbers, I'd guess that the number of homebrew games is far greater now than at any time in the past, due to the ability of like-minded people to meet over the internet across long distances.

    3. Re:and thus dies the soul of gaming by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1, Troll

      That's because "interactive movies" are neither interactive nor movies. They are, at best, a puzzle game -- but the only puzzle is "ok which button do i press here to get to the next part of the story".

      See also: Why Final Fantasy games suck.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    4. Re:and thus dies the soul of gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've evidently never played one, but that's not the case with Final Fantasy (or most Japanese RPGs, which you are probably using FF as a stand-in for). As in most western games, there is a predetermined story arc, but your progress depends on successfully beating enemies. That's not a 'button press', it's a tactical game, and often requires quite a bit of planning and strategy.

    5. Re:and thus dies the soul of gaming by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      It would be nice to see "interactive movies" where the plot came first and the gameplay was centered more about advancing the storyline as opposed to just being a cookie cutter FPS sequel.

      I tried playing Myst 2 (the series is the acme of the interactive movie genre) and frankly, I thought it was incredibly boring and completely unbelievable. It was all "walk this way and flip a switch, now walk to the other side of the island and flip another switch. Hey wasn't there another one of these in that cave?" After about 20 minutes I couldn't help but think that only an absolute moron would build a security system like that, people would be breaking in all the friggin time, and it would take you an hour just to set the lock when you went out. After that I was done. The parts that were supposed to make it fun and interactive turned out to just be retarded.

      It probably would have been fine as a movie, but as a game it was stupid as hell.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    6. Re:and thus dies the soul of gaming by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, he's obviously never played a FF game, they can be a ton of fun and are never, ever interactive movies (though they tend to have long cut-scenes).

      He's spot on with interactive movies though. They suck monkey balls. In fact, if interactive movies (like Myst and the lot) were more like Final Fantasy they'd probably still be around.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    7. Re:and thus dies the soul of gaming by Keill · · Score: 1

      Kreigaffe is correct, though few people will probably recognise that.

      The reason for this, is the lack of recognition of the basic types/aspects of human behaviour words such as games, puzzles, competitions and even art represent.

      Art and competitions are all about things done FOR, (and therefore TO), other people.

      There are two types of puzzles - those we create, (which are things done FOR and TO other people aswell), and those we do not. An example of the latter would be figuring our how the universe operates, (covered by the sciences etc.). An example of the former would be a jigsaw, or crossword/sudoku etc.. All puzzles are about people interacting with things done TO them. The puzzles we create are therefore about creating things FOR other people to interact with.

      Competition is about people TRYING to gain something, (either by something that happens TO them, or something they DO), at the expense of, or in spite of, the others. (The actual goal/reason for competing does not matter).

      Competitions are about people competing (by whatever means) to have something done TO them. (To be told whether or not they have won).

      Games, are about people competing by DOING something FOR themselves, which may involve something done TO other people or things. (Games are not, therefore about any goals that may be reached, just the process of trying to attain them). The most basic games of all, are a race, fighting, competitive movement and/or throwing - almost every game in history is either purely that, or an abstract derivation of such things, from snakes and ladders, (which if take away the race, just leaves a board/dice game and turn-based, which are types of games, not games in themselves), to football and World of Warcraft. If a product does not contain any of this, then the chances are extremely big - (if not certain) - that it is not actually a game to begin with - it's probably either a puzzle, competition or just a work of art instead.

      Games are DEFINED by what the player DOES, and what they use to do it with!

      Yes, the line between doing something FOR ourselves and interacting with something done TO us, is extremely fine, which is why people have problems... Though it's NOT helped by people taking things which are already considered to be puzzles OUTSIDE of a computer, and then calling them a GAME just BECAUSE it's ON a computer!

      Note that because the behaviour the words puzzle and game represent are mutually exclusive - (either it's something you DO or it's something that happens TO you) - puzzles and games CANNOT co-exist!

      (Note I've been working on another more fundamental reason for the problem here within the English Language, though I really need to re-write the paper about it - hint: it's because the way we learn and use the language to recognise human behaviour is generally subjective).

      --
      'Stupidity is an often fatal disease' - R. A. Heinlein
    8. Re:and thus dies the soul of gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The days of people making games as a labour of love are almost gone.

      *cough* dwarf fortress, ur-quan masters, openttd, springrts, warsow, etc..*cough*

  12. He seems to not address two things by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    After reading the article, the author seems to simply not talk about two things (at least as related to conventional MMORPGs).

    First, he doesn't address the question of the effect of monetization on player base. In his HappyFunTime example, for instance, he blithely assumes that both monetization systems have the same number of players. But is this true? I know many players who actively avoid games with aggressive monetization systems, especially those where the best items are available only via RMT or where progress beyond a certain point requires RMT purchases (which is not related to whether or not you can continue to play forever for free, it's a question of whether, eg., access to the best end-game instances and raid zones requires paying or not). Their thought is that games aren't a paying job for them, and those sorts of games are going to be dominated by professional players for whom the game in fact is a paying job (they either make money off of player-to-player RMT if allowed or they're employed by a plat-farming and/or power-leveling service) They're also wary of putting time and effort into developing a character in a game where their progress and ability to play with their friends may be randomly blocked by the vagaries of real-world finances (eg. your friends want to run a raid but this week your checking account just doesn't have enough in it to pay for access to that raid zone). For them it's safer to stick with games with a less aggressive monetization model, ones where they won't have those problems.

    Second, there's the question of how well the player base will stick with the game when economic times get tough. We're going through a time like that right now, for instance. I'd think that when times get tight players will abandon games that effectively mandate out-of-pocket costs (ie. have aggressive monetization models) every month more readily than fluff-only or flat-subscription games. In games where RMT gets you fluff-only items, you can cut your out-of-pocket costs quickly and decisively without seriously impacting your game experience. In flat-subscription games, you don't even have to worry about your cost level since it's going to remain steady and predictable. If you can afford to play at all, your play experience doesn't depend on how much you're spending. My experience has been that those things create a player base that finds the game a better value for the money and that'll be less likely to drop it than other things when their entertainment budget starts to get squeezed. IMO designing a game that's highly vulnerable to economic ups and downs is a more risky proposition than designing one that's attractive even in the bad times.

    1. Re:He seems to not address two things by fish+waffle · · Score: 1

      First, he doesn't address the question of the effect of monetization on player base.

      This is so important. I've played several F2P games. I have donated plenty too, but never to the ones where the main goal is obviously to keep chipping away at my bank account.

      A free game relies on the relationship between the players and the producers. If I'm just a commodity to the game then I treat the game the same---tell me what I have to pay up-front and I'll decide if it's worth it. A labor of love, a game where the developers care that the players are enjoying the game irrespective of payment, induces symmetric feelings. That's your loyal, paying base.

      It is certainly possible to have a successful F2P game that does not over-monetize and doesn't constitute a charity. Kingdom of Loathing comes to mind: completely free (donation-only and it's not essential), but supports 4-6 full time staff and has been going for 5 years.

    2. Re:He seems to not address two things by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if I'd call something like Kingdom of Loathing "successful" in the commercial sense. It sounds a long way from being nearly as successful as say Everquest 2, which at best guesstimate brings in at least $2-2.5 million a month in revenue (and EQ2's not the most successful MMORPG out there).

  13. Presumably TFA means MMOs... by jiteo · · Score: 1

    ie, free-to-play games that actually have a recurring cost for the developer. Because how to monetize free-to-play games has been solved when the first game came out: people bought your game, and you got their money.

  14. Maybe by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    But your entire argument falls flat on ONE important point. Where is the F2P behemot? WHERE is the Blizzard equivalent?

    This is the amusing thing in most MMO debates. People talk about how succesfull PvP is, but not a single PvP game is a financial success. And F2P games are surefire money machines, yet none of them do all that well.

    Simply put, the number of idiots that spend as much as the parent on a single game are few. Ther is more money in the masses then the niche. And F2P payers are niche. You get F2P fans arguing about the success for their game with a whole 2 servers and a third might be coming any day now!!!

    The real reason for the geographic difference is that original american MMO's were run by dumb americans unable to provide any other payment scheme then credit cards. SOE was the first to sign up with global payment companies to provide world wide payment solutions. No credit card, no Ultima Online or Meridian 59. And you could forget about localisation.

    The asian MMO developers operated in a vacuum, they had an audience that wasn't being catered to.

    This has changed and WoW is played around the world.

    Even today, most western MMO subscription companies are horrible about payment solutions. Don't underestimate the difficulty of selling to customer who can't pay you money.

    But in the end, F2P tends to be more expensive. For 1000 bucks you could have bought 3 lifetime editions of Lotro. Why pay more for lesser games?

    F2P only appeals to the cheap skates and the mathematically challenged.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Maybe by TyFoN · · Score: 1

      You have Perfect World
      It seems to be the WoW of F2P

    2. Re:Maybe by twidarkling · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're completely right about the difficulty in paying for most western MMOs. I recently started playing a relatively new one, and whenever I look at the help channel, multiple times a day I see people going "I wanna upgrade from my trial account, is there any way to pay without a credit card?" but for that game, there isn't (well, maybe paypal, I can't remember). And that's just when I'm online. That means this company's losing out on literally dozens of customers every week, just out of ones that mention it. How many more customers on trial accounts just poke around for payment, then give up? How many others research a bit, then when it's only CC payment, decide to not even try? Due to an anaemic payment method selection, they could be losing out on thousands of dollars a month in revenue. Considering it's a fairly small MMO right now (I think I heard about a 25,000 player base), that's not an amount I'd think they could afford to turn away from.

      --
      Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
    3. Re:Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      First of all, WoW is an anomaly in terms of subscribers. While there have been several hopefuls that have tried to duplicate WoW's numbers, nobody has achieved it. Not even the previous subscription MMO champion, EQ1, had anywhere close to number of subscribers. You do not need to have massive numbers like WoW for your MMO to be considered a "financial success." Unfortunately, a lot of companies nowadays see Blizzard's pile of cash and want in, so they sink a ton of capital into a supposed WoW-killer. However, trying to out-WoW Blizzard has proven folly for all of them.

      As far as PvP, a PvP focused game will probably always be niche, but sustainable as long as the devs cater to that niche. A lot of former DOAC players tell me that they were happy with the game until the devs tried to release too much EQ-style PvE raiding content. In other words, when they ignored their niche and tried to go for more of EQ's players is when they had problems. Then again, DOAC is still running (barely) after all this time. I think Mythic was able to reverse some of what they did before completely destroying the game.

      Right now I think the big niche games are Darkfall and EVE, which to my knowledge are in the black because they are doing a pretty good job of catering to their niches and not trying to WoW-ize themselves. They aren't going to have the subscriber numbers that WoW are, but they are going to be able to keep themselves going.

      F2P, on the other hand, baffles me. I cannot fathom how these games are making money on the western market. Most of them I've tried are utter garbage, and in many you will end up having to sink close to the cost of a WoW subscription into them to remain competitive. Runes of Magic is at least playable, but it is a subpar WoW clone that is inferior in almost every way. Why start paying into it when you can just play WoW? Then again, it baffles me how some people can even consider sinking cash into all those shitty Facebook games.... so maybe the passable ones like RoM are able to stay afloat because a lot of people are suckers.

      The F2P model is hot right now, but I suspect that it is going to crash hard once the Zynga fad wears off and people realize they just blew their money into a subpar game experience. After that, I expect that the hybrid model will be the one that sees the most success. One where you pay for a subscription to a game, and if you want to buy some bonuses once in a while, you can for a small fee. Blizzard already seems to be playing around with this model with pets and mounts.

    4. Re:Maybe by TriezGamer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are attempting to create an argument where there isn't one. There is no NEED for a 'behemoth' free-to-play game, and I don't see where anyone was saying that there needed to be one. Free-to-play games don't have to be massive to succeed at making money, which is the whole point.

      In addition, you're making the assumption that WoW is successful because it isn't free to play -- instead of the fact that it had a marketing behemoth (worldwide), an extremely popular brand name (worldwide), and a very highly praised development team (worldwide) working behind it.

      Furthermore, if you WANT to see sizable Free-To-Play games, they're out there if you look. You also mention 'lifetime' subscriptions to LotRO -- a game that is in the process of converting to free-to-play precisely because of the success of DDO's free-to-play conversion that the company already had.

      >Why pay more for lesser games?

      Who decides they're lesser? Subscription numbers are meaningless to personal tastes. I've had more fun playing free-to-play games than any retail subscription game - and not for lack of trying them. I've had active subscriptions at one point or another to approximately half of the mainstream subscription MMORPGs in the west.

      Another benefit of free-to-play games: When I'm struggling financial, I can still play and just stop paying.

    5. Re:Maybe by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

      League of Legends is F2P / microtransaction, and by all accounts they're doing pretty well for themselves. Not an MMO, but MMOs.. at least, today's typical MMOs.. they're friggin weird beasts that I consider garbage, they're all PvE grinds and timesinks. Some people like that, but few people are going to shell out cash for $LEWT just to grind more. Unless it's WoW and they're spending the money for a super special mount... but WoW is a bit of an aberration. It's got some crazy obsessed fan(boy)s.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    6. Re:Maybe by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      The US needs to adopt the Canadian solution - Interac email money transfer.

      No credit card required, so nobody can "steal" your credit card information - OR your banking info - it's all hidden. Think of your bank acting as an email payment escrow service. Flat fee per transaction.

    7. Re:Maybe by twidarkling · · Score: 1

      Actually, I've got unlimited transactions with my account. Never carry cash on me at all, thanks to it. And yeah, it'd be nice if the US started working with it that way. Unfortunately, thanks to the credit card companies in the US being the ones to issue debit cards, I really doubt it'll happen in some nicely compatible way with Canada's system.

      --
      Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
    8. Re:Maybe by stonewallred · · Score: 1

      I will leave WoW as soon as a better game comes along. Preferably one with some character customization and dev supported RP stuff. WoW, if it included dev supported RP(such as toon housing, closets, more bank space, better naming conventions like last names, family names etc)it would be pretty close to perfect. I would stay a subscriber and level alts and work on amassing the most gold possible. As it stands now, I might subscribe for a couple of months, then let it die, only to come back again later on. I don't raid, don't run instances, PvP only for leveling gear for alts, and to run alt after alt through the lowbie BGs to faceroll folks. The lore does not interest me. Farming and making gold is what I enjoy. But how many mechahogs do you need? Not enough gold sinks. Where if they would put player housing in, that would give me something to grind for and achieve. And no, I am not terribly anti-social, met some good folks playing WoW, just not into having a guild dictate when I am going to play.

    9. Re:Maybe by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      I hope there's a next generation of MMO that has the world building and avatar customization capabilities of Second Life, with the gameplay of World of Warcraft, both taken to the next level of evolution of course.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    10. Re:Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I came to same to mention Perfect World International. They have been ridiculously successful. I myself have only spent $100 on the game and I've been playing a little over 2 years, however I know numerous individuals who will spend around $50 a month (I think that's insane....but I would never tell them that). The reason I chose PWI over all the other mmo's out there is because I wanted a f2p, it had fantastic graphics (at the time but they are still pretty good), it's balanced, and it's super fun and has a ridiculous amount of content. The number one reason however was that compared to other f2p mmo's it was the only one I found at the time that had no unfair character boosting cash shop items. There are no cash shop items that make you more powerful. Since I've started they have added cash shop items that allow you to level faster, but 90% of the cash shop is aesthetics (clothes are very popular in this game) and mounts. Given the mounts make you move faster, but still, not more powerful. I believe Perfect World International has had a very successful business model. They took an existing game, translated it, added more content (and continue adding content), and continue to rake in money. I'm happy that they can make money and I can play a game I enjoy for free.

    11. Re:Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But your entire argument falls flat on ONE important point. Where is the F2P behemot? WHERE is the Blizzard equivalent?

      This is the amusing thing in most MMO debates. People talk about how succesfull PvP is, but not a single PvP game is a financial success. And F2P games are surefire money machines, yet none of them do all that well.

      Simply put, the number of idiots that spend as much as the parent on a single game are few. Ther is more money in the masses then the niche. And F2P payers are niche. You get F2P fans arguing about the success for their game with a whole 2 servers and a third might be coming any day now!!!

      The real reason for the geographic difference is that original american MMO's were run by dumb americans unable to provide any other payment scheme then credit cards. SOE was the first to sign up with global payment companies to provide world wide payment solutions.

      Grammar Nazi says: Please learn the difference between "then" and "than."

      Thank you!

    12. Re:Maybe by xenapan · · Score: 1

      Nope. F2P also appeals to the people who prefer PAY2WIN. I used to play a Korean developed F2P strategic MMO called Atlantical Online. Catch is every month they rotate through and push out a new set of clothes/mount/decorations. Each mount/decoration with like maybe 10 stats more than the last. The biggest catch? you dont BUY the item.. you GAMBLE for it... You buy "boxes" which you then open for a CHANCE to win one of these items. Some players spend $400+USD EVERY month when the new items came out to get them. Of course, then after a while they put in equipment you HAD to trade those mounts/decorations for. So now not only are they a slight stat boost for the rich, they are practically required to play the game at high level due to the amount of equipment slots the new items offer. Even worse, to repair those new items you had to buy "atlas ore" to repair it. Atlas also allowed you to upgrade your items just as a kicker. So the difference between a +10 set of top level eq and a +2 set is about 8*20% difference in performance. and 2^8 in cost. After I hit the top level I gave up trying to play as everything in that game was base on a timemoney trade. Then there are licenses they sold for a "reasonable" fee. Which basically turned the game into a p2p. Afterall are you going to walk around without health check(yeah. you cant see enemy health unless you have the license), autobattle (cause they nerf the drop rates to hell then make you farm. of course you need autobattle. to top it off the AI sucked so you needed at least 2-3 levels of eq higher than if you played manually and still then you might die with autobattle.), TELEPORT (or you could walk through maps that take 5-10 minutes to navigate each, filled with aggros you dont care to fight every time to complete a quest at the end of which you walk through the same areas backwards to get back to where you started to hand in only for the guy to send you to the next level down below where you were) Licences cost more than the typical p2p monthly subscription. So if you were buying new stuff every month (30 boxes doesnt guarantee you getting something. but typically 1/25 is a pretty "average" number for the boxes) thats 300 bucks. + full set of licenses for another 45 a month. = 345 a month = wayyyyy more than anyone pays for WoW.

      --
      insert funny sig here
  15. This is old, old stuff by localman57 · · Score: 1

    I remember in the early 90's, the SysOpp of our local BBS had a variety of level-limited varieties of what today is called a MMO (although it was only as massive as a typical football team, and only one or two of us could be online at a time). They were ASCII/ANSI based dungeons where you fought monsters and got stuff. Only 15 minutes of play per day per person please! Other people want to dial in!

    Eventually we all chipped in a few bucks (Convincing my mom to write a check to a stranger I met on the computer ("how is he on our computer?") was a challenge). But eventually we got enough dough together to buy a license so we could all level up, and go attack the much more powerful monsters represented by such fear-invoking characters as '#', '%', '&'. Oh yeah, I remember old '&'. He'll never cross us again. I'll tell you that much.

    1. Re:This is old, old stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are my hero. that is all.

  16. Gaming profit models by peterofoz · · Score: 5, Informative
    From the games I seen I can draw the following profit opportunities:
    • F2P comes with a banner or side advertisement. Subscribing eliminates the ad. Example: Runescape. Aggressive would be popup ads or commercials. More subtle is ads incorporated into the game landscape. Example: SecondLife
    • In game items - cosmetic. You just have to look good in some social games. Aggressive is where you have to have a clothes item to enter an area or complete a quest where you already have a time investment. Example: SecondLife, Farmville.
    • In game items - functional. These items let you get ahead with better tools or weapons. Aggressive is where it provides a really unfair advantage. Example: Mafia Wars. Some have have items using in game cash you can earn by playing or find along with other kind of cash you have to purchase. Example Farmville, Wizard 101.
    • Time advantage. Some games have recharge timers where you can just wait 24 hours to recharge, or pay for an instant recharge. Example: Evony, Wizard 101 Pet Games
    • Content - Games offer a F2P area with access to additional content by subscription or by single cost per area. Examples: Wizard 101. Some games provide a place to put content, but you have to create it. Example: SecondLife.
    • Content + Subscription - Games that require you to purchase the content and then require a subscription for online play. Examples: Eve Online, World of Warcraft.
    • Real World purchases - Games that blend game play with real world purchases, such as buying a coffee at 7-11. Example: Mafia Wars, Farmville. Many game makers also have a store where you can buy shirts, hats, mouse pads, etc. Examples: Slashdot, Jagex.
    • Information - Hints and Helps - Games (typically puzzle quest types) where you might need a hint to complete a puzzle. You get the hints by purchasing a book or magazine, or by calling a help line that charges by the minute providing help via a menu tree. Example: Zork (classic). Newer games might use SMS Texting and let the phone company handle the micro-transactions.
    • Marketing - Games that provide free play, but sell your email address and demographic details to third parties.
    • IPO - Games that provide free play to build a 1,000,000 user base, at least until the company is sold to investors who then figure out how to monetize it.

    There's probably more, but that's the ones I've seen.

    1. Re:Gaming profit models by Ambvai · · Score: 1

      I suppose this might fit into the "Content" category, but how about Guild Wars? I suppose GW is more episodic, but it doesn't quite fit within the description you've presented.

      Specifically, you pay once, at approximate new-retail-game price, for each "episode" (with one exception, which is effectively a bridge for GW2) that is a stand-alone storyline that does not require the presence of the other episodes (though it's recommended, as there are cross-synergies).

    2. Re:Gaming profit models by gamricstone · · Score: 2, Informative
      FYI you are not required to purchase content while playing Eve Online. All content expansions are included with your subscription cost. The first month is $5 more expensive, but it is passed off as an account activation fee. The account activation fee can be avoided if a friend gives you a PLEX (pilots license extension) or you are able to obtain one before your trial ends.

      Otherwise I thought your post was pretty accurate.

      --
      The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. - Einstein
    3. Re:Gaming profit models by peterofoz · · Score: 1

      This could fit under my 5th topic as Progressive Content. Us old timers used to call this product upgrades.

    4. Re:Gaming profit models by peterofoz · · Score: 1

      My bad, you are correct. I must be confusing this with another game product box I saw at a game store.

    5. Re:Gaming profit models by hellop2 · · Score: 1

      Example for IPO: Counterstrike. Used to be a free mod for half-life.

      --
      How many more years will slashdot have an off-by-one error on your Score in your profile?
  17. F2P Works. by vampire_baozi · · Score: 1

    I had a really long, intelligent-sounding post detailing two F2P companies, but it got lost when I hit the back button. Oops.

    Summary: F2P works, in both models.

    Aesthetics: People will pay real world monies for in-game aesthetic improvements. See: Guild Wars, entire economy revolves around bling with stats identical to ordinary items bought from NPCs, just shinier.

    Functionality: Silk Road Online. Either you pay to quicken the grind, get EXP, and stacks of pots/etc, or you are food for bots. Perfect World: same deal. No EXP scrolls? Enjoy getting PK'd. Oh, and watching everyone else floating around on really pretty animals in really pretty armor. PW is also interesting because they changed it for the Western release: much LESS grind, you level faster. They figured we westerners wouldn't sink as much time into grinding/farming.

    Soth SRO and PW are expanding their userbases and continually adding new servers. GW isn't doing too poorly either (I still play, and buy items from their in-game store with cash).

    1. Re:F2P Works. by Creepy · · Score: 1

      Interesting point, and while Guild Wars is not technically a F2P game because they have an initial entry cost, the game does have a number of F2P features (no monthly cost, an in-game store with speedups like skill unlock packs, etc). I agree the game is very fashion driven - there is no reason to get Obsidian Armor other than aesthetics, because it is extremely expensive and offers no defensive benefit over cheap armor that is 1/100000 the price. The real trick with a store is you need to sell something players want and not over-saturate the game with that item. For instance, an in-game example: elemental swords were extremely valuable at one time, then raptor farming came along and you're now lucky to get 5000 for them. The same problem happened with Chaos Axes and Underworld farming.

  18. It can be done right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    To my mind, Kingdom of Loathing has done a fantastic job of handling this type of problem. Though not what most people think of when they think of a F2P MMO, they have made all items that one donates for tradeable, allowing non-paying players to experience the "premium" content if they are willing to farm hard and long enough for in-game currency. So people who are willing to pay can buy extra to sell in game to people who are not willing to pay real life money for them. It's a system that could easily have broken down horribly and made the whole economy wildly unbalanced, but through attention to detail and a commitment to making all items and content available for every player, they have succeeded where many games have failed.

    1. Re:It can be done right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kingdom of Loathing is an example of "how to do things right" on about a hundred levels. Monetization, community interaction, customer support, level of new content... it's an absolutely amazing game. Oh, and it's really funny and fun to play.

    2. Re:It can be done right... by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      It's also why i quit KoL before finishing it.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
  19. Hookworm therapy by tepples · · Score: 1

    The only drawback to running barefoot is you can easily pickup hookworms

    It's not always a drawback. It can help people get over autoimmune disease.

  20. Striking a balance by rantomaniac · · Score: 1

    Players are more likely to pay if they get more advantages out of it, but players who can't pay or can't pay enough to stay competitive won't really have an incentive to play.
    The game has to remain playable regardless of the level of monetary contributions or else it ceases to be about gameplay and turns into a bidding war. While that might give you a couple high income players, I doubt it's feasible in the long run.

    I used to play a MUD by a certain well-known developer in the MUD community. It was advertised as free-to-play, pay-for-perks, but its scheme had two major flaws:

    The power plateau was ridiculously high, it took thousands of dollars AND months of playing to reach it, per character.

    The baseline character power level, at which the game was by design balanced required an investment of around $200-300. There was no segregation between paying and non-paying players, both competed in the same game world. This put non-paying players at a big disadvantage unless they just wanted to use the game as a glorified chat-room. The developers used to counter this argument on message boards saying that players can get the perks through contests and in-game currency. However contests were not frequent enough and too competitive to make much of a difference (usually the same clique of players won). And buying them for in-game currency required weeks of grinding quests (mere knowledge of which required a lot of gameplay beforehand) competitively against other players with similar goals (because the game offered no instancing).

    Was the game successful? Moderately, they're making some money, they've made quite a lot of a couple selected players with deep pockets. But ultimately there never was enough players to keep the game from feeling empty, usually just a couple players per character class at any given time. I heard their other games using the same model were more successful though, on the order of 500 players logged in on the most popular one. But I can't help but wonder what kind of numbers they could have raised if the price for playing the game competitively was an order of magnitude lower. Their MUDs are actually worth paying for, compared to all the uninspired DIKU clones, just not that much.

    I regret sinking $200 into it before I realized I just can't compete without buying the equivalent of a used car in skills and virtual items.

  21. Anyone remember the rule of browser MMOs? by Nrrqshrr · · Score: 1

    1% of the player-base pays for 100% of the costs. The rest is profit.

  22. Best of BOTH Worlds by Renraku · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In my opinion, all premium content should be able to be purchased with the in game currency.

    The reasoning? Some people are poor, but have a lot of time. For example, the disabled. Rather than absolutely limiting them (they're barely getting by, most likely) to low end items/gear/decor, why not just make the items available in game at a disproportionately high cost? Like for example, your 'stamina' recharge that lets you fight/gain experience/items/etc could cost half a day's worth of grinding and it could cost $2. That fancy hat might cost $10 and take you a couple of days to farm for. There's really no downside to this.

    The grinders can grind, the payers can pay. It's economic specialization. Those disabled folks can grind to their heart's content and feel like they're earning something, maybe sell it for some in game currency or *gasp* real cash in a competitive amount with the game servers. Those payers can feel awesome when they get a $0.10 discount on their Fancy Hat because they bought from the grinder.

    Nothing will make me stop playing a 'F2P' game faster than setting up obvious noticeable speed bumps to keep the poor poor and the payers on top.

    --
    Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    1. Re:Best of BOTH Worlds by Ambvai · · Score: 1

      A few games work like that-- Gunbound had most of the items purchasable for game-currency or real money, though a few were limited to real money or game-currency only .

      Alternatively, Kingdom of Loathing, mentioned a few posts up, operates on a real money->Generic Trade Item->Item of the Month system, for which you may spend/earn game currency by trading the GTI around. For those with limited real money, you can save up game-currency to buy them.

    2. Re:Best of BOTH Worlds by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >disproportionately high cost?

      What's wrong with 'proportional cost'?

      Whatever would cost a paying player $100, make it take 8-10 hours of grinding to get. Not 80-100 hours. Or worse.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    3. Re:Best of BOTH Worlds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I haven't played EVE online, but I think you can trade in game subscriptions for Isk (currency) legally within the game.

    4. Re:Best of BOTH Worlds by hellop2 · · Score: 1

      Supply and demand will quickly take care of that. 12 year-olds sit around and play for 10 hours a day, but they aren't doing $500 worth of actual work per week. Otherwise, I would quit my job as fish-asshole-cleaner right now and just play videogames all day.

      --
      How many more years will slashdot have an off-by-one error on your Score in your profile?
    5. Re:Best of BOTH Worlds by war4peace · · Score: 2, Informative

      Congrats, you have just described how EVE Online works.
      I can buy a PLEX (30-day Pilot License EXtension) for real-life money and then selling in-game for in-game currency.
      So let's see...
      You are a player who doesn't really have enough money or is unwilling to spend them on a monthly subscription, but at the same time you have a lot of spare time. So you make lots of in-game currency (called ISK). I am a guy who can afford to pay the monthly fee but because of my job/real-life lack of free time, I can't afford making lots of ISK; however, I could use the ISK to buy in-game ships, modules and the like, for a better gaming experience. Therefore, I buy the PLEX for real-life money, sell the PLEX to you for ISK.
      In the end:
      - CCP (the game maker) gets its money;
      - You get to play for free (no real-life money spent)
      - I get my ships and modules (which I can lose in the blink of an eye if I'm a bad player...)

      There are many good things about this whole approach to transactions:
      a. PLEX value is not fixed, it varies in-game because it's a market commodity, based on the in-game demand/offer. b. The stuff you buy for those ISK amounts is all destructible. All of it. (okay, except stations, but if you are crazy enough to buy one with PLEX-ISK, you can still lose it.) It's not like in WoW, where if you die, you still get to keep your gear. Here, it's gone for good.
      c. It reduced the ISK farmers to 0. A year ago, when I joined, most of the trading hubs chats were pestered by spamming trial characters flooding you with commercials such as "500M ISK for just 20 USD!" - now they are all gone. It's been months since I saw the last one.
      d. It doesn't affect skills, skillpoints or how well you perform. Also, it doesn't affect which ships you can fly. You still need to train for those :)
      So IMO, CCP really nicked the goal with this PLEX approach.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    6. Re:Best of BOTH Worlds by Darkman,+Walkin+Dude · · Score: 1

      There's really no downside to this.

      Except game producers are in it for one reason, and thats to make money, not to provide free entertainment. In fact the more time you spend grinding and not paying the more you are costing them, this is why things like friendster became basically worthless once it became apparent that most of the userbase was impoverished SE Asians. There's nothing amoral or unethical, flame-ey or otherwise in this statement, this is the simple fact of how things work. A nice free to play for all would be great but also unsustainable.

  23. What about the most important thing for a success? by funnyfun · · Score: 1

    How good the game is able to hold or pull an audience. Maple story is probably one of the more successful F2P. I didn't play too far into Maple story (maybe level 40ish) so I'm not the most understanding of it, but, it seemed to be able to grip onto those kind of people who are willing to pay for F2P even though you wouldn't be able to buy a item advantage in that game. you can buy cool costumes (cool compared to what you usually have to wear...) and I think EXP boosters (but those are time savers more than a leg up on those who don't because what cant grinding do that a EXP boost could do besides make things faster) in game. What I think made the game popular compared to other F2P's is the fact that the UI (although stupid looking) was very functional and easy and the game play generally copied what the UI did... the easy part at least (although time consuming). I think, as always, game companies shouldn't try to trick people into giving them the most money by certain methods of player-base/money per person and just simply make a good game that keeps people on for a long enough time they feel it worth it to spend money on the game (like with league of legends for me. i played it enough and found it a decent enough of a game to put 30 bucks into it. I'm still playing and don't see me stopping until valve hopefully makes a better AoS).

  24. Can we get a new term for "free"? by izomiac · · Score: 1

    This is starting to get ridiculous. The term "free" means "no cost". A demo or "lite version" is only free if you don't advertise the features of the paid version, similarly, a time limited trial isn't free anymore than something with no payments for 90 days. Adware isn't free, nor is anything that you need to exchange valuable personal information for. And "buy one, get one free" is just plain nonsensical.

    Lately, commercial software providers have been really abusing the word "free". These F2P MMORPGs are an excellent example. Some MMORPGs actually are completely free, but they're next to impossible to find because of all the P2P MMORPGs that call themselves free. The Android application market is another good example of how demos, trials, adware, spyware, "free program only usable with paid service" and "mandatory donation of a fixed price" software makes truly free (gratis or libre) software hard to locate.

    IMHO, we need a new word to differentiate "FREE!!!!! *" from literally "free". I would say "non-commercial", but many businesses generate profit from open source software, and a free sample is most certainly commercial. Unfortunately, there are too many people that can't wrap their head around non-monetary costs to reclaim the proper word that describes this concept.

  25. League of Legends by jorghis · · Score: 1

    A good example of a successful f2p game with a 'fair' system is League of Legends. The entire game is free, but they make most of their money by selling custom skins for different champions that players can control. It has no functional difference in the game, but somehow they manage to sell enough to keep the company going.

    1. Re:League of Legends by xenapan · · Score: 1

      Not entirely true. the IP cost for most heroes is pretty high. If you want a hero to play permanently and main on, you need to buy it. If its twitch or some other 6300 IP char, most people just buy it. I hit level 23 two days ago. Ive bought a hero for 450IP, another for 1350. The rest I've spent on runes (I dont even have a whole set of 30 tier3 runes much less sets of runes so that I can play different chars with different bonuses) and I have a grand total of 1100 IP left. Sure you could spend your IP on chars, but without runes you are at a disadvantage (slight as it may be).

      --
      insert funny sig here
  26. Re:Internet connections are shitty in the West. by Kvasio · · Score: 1

    AC:

    Internet connections in the West are extremely shitty compared to those of South Korea and Japan.

    odies writes:

    I hope you aren't thinking Asian connections are shitty because they are slow to you? They obviously are fast for everyone living there and you can get up to 1 gbit connections in several countries.

    BREAKING NEWS:
    Reading with comprehensions still out of reach of masses.

  27. Pay To Pwn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason I don't play any of these games (Combat Arms, I'm looking at you) is because the for-pay items are hugely unbalanced. Yes, I enjoy geting pwnd by mommy's credit card....

    D&D Online appears to be the most balanced of them all though. All you can get is character slots, potions, and hirelings.

  28. Re:They had free-to-play in arcades when I was a k by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The best part as a kid was when you know the Galaga glitch to get a hold of the ship for free in demo mode.

    http://screwattack.com/blogs/ScrewPenguins-blog/The-Galaga-Glitch-Play-the-Demo-Screen

  29. your examples are obsolete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if i remember the post from turbine correctly, lotro will be f2p in a month or two

    btw there is also ddo, being f2p since last septembre ... i wouldnt call that a small f2p game, since they went f2p the content get updates roughly every 2 months, one more server had to be opened (7 total currently) and their player base counts in millions

    you can still go the subscription path with ddo if you prefer, but you have the choice

  30. Video games?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously? Who cares. This isn't "stuff that matters".

  31. cheaper by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    Too bad the publishers out there haven't thought to actually lower subscription rates to $5-$9 per player like how much they are making from these free games. At some point someone decided $16 was a good idea, and subscriptions have dropped ever since. We don't want to re-purchase the game ever 2 to 3 months. I dont think any of us are foolish enough to believe it costs them that much for bandwidth and to maintain the server. People just don't like feeling like their getting ripped off, and any game that charges you over $10/month is without a doubt ripping you off.

  32. east vs. west? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nexon's Maplestory seems to be doing well over here. Well enough co-workers gave told me they've bought Maplestory gift cards for children they know as presents.
    Company of Heroes Online was released in China, then Korea, and looks to do well here as a hybrid. Made in the west, sent east to be converted to free to play, and is now back.

    Why isn't f2p as popular here? There are two reasons. #1 is entrenched systems. You've got systems set up at old giants like EA dedicated to the traditional woo the press/buyers and get extra copies of latest game into the stores. You can't change the world over night, but as Company of Heroes Online, Battlefield, etc show, you can do it.
    #2 consoles. Most people in the west game on consoles other than Blizzard games. Korea and China still harbour quite a bit of animosity toward Japan and blocked their consoles. Which led to a ton of pirated western PC games. Due to economic differences where somebody in China earns so little it would be like spending $600 on SC2 the west had no interest in attempting to sell to them, but the Chinese and Koreans did. They figured out they should embrace piracy and give things away for free. But for just a little bit of money you can get convenience items. Now there is a market around there that never could've grown up in a console centric society.

    It's changing over here, especially on the PC, but it'll be a slow change due to the way consoles work. Although with new phones having so much power and HDMI out, maybe the console itself will go away soon.

    1. Re:east vs. west? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been playing MapleStory for 2 years now, and I have noticed an increasing trend in becoming "free to play, pay to be good".

      • The levelling speed is abysmal, it just can't be done quickly enough without buying plenty of their 2x experience cards. Since most of the people are high-levelled, you want to skip the first 100 levels as fast as possible.
      • It has always been possible to buy nice equips from their "trade shop" using real money, but recently, they have added a new way of making equips stronger, using cash items, and of course everybody's doing it, so to stay on par with everybody else, you have do to it (the improved equips can give % of your base stats) or you become weak. It can go up to 20$ per equip before getting something worthwhile.
      • The economy of this game is uber-inflated, as such, every good item costs more than 100 millions, especially some 4th job mastery books. So you can't really make ends meet in the game just by farming monsters drops (only bosses drop good stuff that's worth being resold, and to go fight them, you need to be high-levelled and powerful already, see my previous points), so basically, without investing some real money to get those game cards in order to buy stuff to resell for in-game money, you are screwed.

      Because of this, I have seen very few "non-spending" players, the slowness of the grind / their weakness / the too-high of a cost of items needed to progress having put them off. Those that stayed, eventually all gave in and started spending.

      I myself spend a lot, about 200$ a month (yes I'm addicted), and, around those people I play with, that's not considered a lot. So, yes, for those people who are actually willing to put in the money, their way of doing is working really well.

    2. Re:east vs. west? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Replying to myself, I forgot to add:

      All the new classes they've been adding actually REQUIRE you to buy cash items to be able to level crucial skills.

      They are really exploiting it to the max now.

  33. Asian players by esaulgd · · Score: 1

    What happens with many F2P games in Asia is the division of users into paying and non-paying categories. As a free user, you simply can't compete with the paying users and do not attempt to. But you can become a mid-level player and get away with lots of stuff without paying a dime, which is part of the fun. It's like being a startup making a living among the corporate giants.

  34. Came here to post this example... by Chmcginn · · Score: 1

    I think part of it is that KOL is very light on the PvP aspect, and it can be opted out of entirely without missing much. If PvP was a bigger part of the game, though, I think you'd see a much bigger gap between those who donate & those who don't.

    --
    Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
  35. Re:Internet connections are shitty in the West. by FlyMysticalDJ · · Score: 1

    Apparently you are among those masses. What odies was trying to do is reinforce the first comment. Another AC commented back with a message of astonishment and odies was giving further detail for that confused poster. Likely odies assumed that his state of astonishment was due to thinking that Asian connections are slow as that Someone in the USA would experience a large amount of latency between their computer and one in an Asian country.

  36. Re:Internet connections are shitty in the West. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Err... I took "Wait, what?" to mean "Wait, what [does this have to do with the story]?"

  37. Golfer shoes are pretty much in trend these days and people wear it irrespective of whether they have ever played Golf.

  38. Combat Arms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I play Combat Arms, and they've started seeing the light recently, now that you can pay for some permanent weapons. Most weapons and gear you can just rent, which is ridiculous. Worst yet, some pay a rent to be Elite Moderators, and then just kick any good players who kick their butts, so for $15 or so Nexon get from them, they end up ruining the game for hundreds.

  39. Free-to-Play too easy for the publisher to abuse by arnaudvre · · Score: 1

    "Free-to-Play" leads to dishonesty like for example when you pay money for in-game items and your item is later rendered useless by a new better item released in the game store which you "have" to buy in order for your character to remain competitive

    Similarly game publishers are entitled to change the EULA without warning so your hard earned cash spent in good faith within the game world towards a certain goal can become useless when the publisher decides to change the goal posts to force people to cough up cash to get their character back up to the level of gear that he/she used to have.

    I hate "free to play games" because of this and refuse to play any of them, what kind of morons do these money grabbing game publishers take their user base for? A certain Battlefield Hero's stands out for me as a shining example of a game where the publish did exactly what I mentioned. Pity they are so good at making games, I very reluctantly picked up one of their later titles which is not "Free-to-Play" but with which they include a code you can only use once to gain access to "VIP" content essentially forcing you to pay the publisher directly for this content if you buy the game second hand. Game publishers who insist on these dishonest business practice will be recognized for the same and will get what they deserve over time. Short sited immediate turnover methods to please investors will very likely backfire in the longer term and I for one will be grinning like mad when it does.

  40. Re:Internet connections are shitty in the West. by Uzik2 · · Score: 1

    You really should use correct grammar if you're going to criticize others for their reading skills.
    The conversation wasn't that hard to follow. As others have pointed out his comments were intended
    to convey additional information about the environment for gaming in other countries.

    --
    -- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
  41. kind of disturbing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My take: These f2p games should be regulated, to ensure that they are not taking advantage of people with some instability causing them to spend way more than is healthy.

    I think their business model relies on scamming these people out of their money, essentially.

    And they seem proud of that.

  42. Better than EA's Pay-to-Pay system. by gumpish · · Score: 1

    Giving an unfair advantage to players who pay into a free-to-play game is at least less unethical than what EA/Dice did with Battlefield 2 (and presumably other titles - I don't know as they've lost me as a customer), which is to charge everyone for the game and then sell balance-changing upgrades to people who pay them more money.

    Fucking. Evil.

  43. Re:Free-to-Play too easy for the publisher to abus by neminem · · Score: 1

    Funny - I play a F2P game called Kingdom of Loathing, which releases a powerful item at the start of every month, and retires the old one (thus ensuring in-game prices for them will go up over time, as you can still buy old ones from players, but no new ones will ever be generated). Every so often a new item of the month will obsolete an old one, and people generally *like* that this happens. In fact, there have been times when many people have complained about it *not* happening - about an old IotM still being necessary, despite it having gotten to be ludicrously expensive.

    Of course, the difference, I think, is in how the developers treat us, their customers - those particular game designers go well out of their way to make sure they're not perceived as money-grubbing, most notably by making sure that you actually can enjoy all the content without giving them a penny (it'll just cost you way more in-game dough, to buy them from players who did give them cash). It's a good system, I think. (I've definitely seen F2P games that *were* obvious money grabs *cough*maplestory*cough* - I try to avoid those.)

  44. Re:Free-to-Play too easy for the publisher to abus by Uzik2 · · Score: 1

    You've obviously given this no thought from any viewpoint except your own. If a game published no new content, or no content that was any better or different than what was currently available, then people would rapidly become bored and quit. The business owners have to earn money from the
    game or they would just get jobs somewhere else. Of course there's going to be new and better content. Further, their model works, as evidenced
    by the fact you bought one of their games even after they "cheated" you of your expected reward. Look up "Rationalization" and "Sour Grapes" and see
    if they apply to anyone you know.

    --
    -- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
  45. Re:Free-to-Play too easy for the publisher to abus by arnaudvre · · Score: 1

    Oh my, you sound like one of them. I'm not even going to stoop to flaming your for your unfounded statement.

    I've been the victim of corporate abuse in this regards when the publisher changed the goal posts to generate revenue. I don't care if it was to save their bacon or not.

  46. Re:Free-to-Play too easy for the publisher to abus by Uzik2 · · Score: 1

    Nope, never worked for or owned a game company.

    So in summary:
    If you don't get what you want it's "abuse".
    You don't care about anyone but yourself.

    Thanks! I've been thinking about creating a game. You've been very educational.
    Now I see what I can expect in the customer support if I start a game company.

    --
    -- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
  47. Re:Free-to-Play too easy for the publisher to abus by arnaudvre · · Score: 1

    It's not "what I want" it's what the publisher promised. They said the game would always be free to play and your character would not be "crippled" by choosing to not pay for items but they went back on their word and angered a lot of fans.

    Yes if you start a game company you can expect people to hold you to your word and slag you if you use deception to generate profit. Good luck with your game company.

  48. Re:Free-to-Play too easy for the publisher to abus by Uzik2 · · Score: 1

    Thanks. Out of curiosity can you provide links to the game publisher. I'd like to see what they did in more detail.

    --
    -- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
  49. Re:Free-to-Play too easy for the publisher to abus by arnaudvre · · Score: 1

    www.battlefieldheroes.com if you search through their forums you'll find very long and angry threads that date back to the end of last year. I had spent about 50 euros on buying customized clothes items and a couple of weapons for my characters which is roughly what I'd be prepared to pay for a new game. Shortly thereafter EA basically made the game pay-to-play all the claims of being free are now a lie, if you don't spend money on consumable abilities you can't compete.