Slashdot Mirror


Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant

pickens writes "VOA reports that Russian and Iranian engineers have begun loading fuel into Iran's first nuclear power plant located in the southern city of Bushehr amid international fears that Iran will use the facility to make nuclear weapons, a charge both Tehran and the Kremlin vehemently deny. Officials say it will take about two to three months for the plant to start producing electricity once all of the fuel rods have been moved into the reactor. The production capacity of the plant will initially be 500 megawatts, but will eventually increase to 1,000 megawatts. Earlier this year, Washington criticized Russia for going ahead with the planned opening of the plant amid global disagreement and concern over Iran's alleged nuclear weapons program. Moscow did, however, back a fourth round of sanctions against Tehran, which called for Iran to stop uranium enrichment."

496 comments

  1. Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by omar.sahal · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What has Iran ever done to us

    1. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Ihmhi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Offhand, there was that whole thing with the hostages in the embassy back in the 80s. That's all I got.

    2. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by bsDaemon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They, along with Syria, are (allegedly) a major source of funding and weapons for Hezballah. So Israel cares, which makes the US Government care. But I really don't give a shit. If they're powering their country with nukes, then they can burn less oil, which means more can be available on the market. It's simple Scarface economics -- "don't get high off your own supply."

    3. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by h4rm0ny · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well they arrested some US soldiers that were bouncing around in their coastal waters and then, er, gave them back a few days later after questioning.

      Okay, seriously? They've not done anything much, it's that they exist. First off, they're too big to easily threaten and they also have means of responding - for example, they could seal the Strait of Hormuz which would majorly fuck up the US's oil supplies. Secondly, unless Russia helps out, you can't impose serious sanctions on them. End result: A country that doesn't have to do what you tell it to. And that's a big problem when you want to dominate the area. For example, Iran is primarily Shiite. So is a large proportion of the population of Iraq which is next door. Therefore it is natural for the nation of Iraq to form close ties with Iran. For another example, Israel has a policy of being the baddest bastards in their region and being able to threaten everyone else as their security policy. Again, Iran is large, powerful and getting better equipped every day. If Russia ever agrees to sell them modern air-defence weapons, then Israel's ability to bomb the fuck out of the country is severely diminished. If they ever get a nuclear weapon, then Israel will have to treat them as a military equal.

      Basically, Iran is a "big kid". And that's a problem for the other "big kid" in the playground which is the US-Israelli bloc. The latter want to dominate the area, but so long as there's someone who isn't easy to push around, then the littler kids have someone they can maybe hide behind or try to become friends with. The US and Israel want themselves to be the only game in town. Iran, unless it can be kept down, means that there's another.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    4. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by hoshino · · Score: 5, Insightful

      An embassy which was run basically as a CIA safe house plotting to sabotage the Iranian government. Citation: Legacy of Ashes

    5. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by AnonymousClown · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Also, there was the removal of a Democratic Iranian Government by the US to install the Shah.

      Right now, we're just dealing with karma of past actions by our government.

      If we kept our noses out of others business, the World would probably be a much different place and there would be less hatred towards us.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    6. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by omar.sahal · · Score: 2, Informative

      They, along with Syria, are (allegedly) a major source of funding and weapons for Hezballah

      According to Noam Chomsky Israel was also a supporter of a similar group called Hamas in its early days. This was to combat fatah. What's going on here is the polity don't really care about who they support as long as it furthers their aims.
      Our polity views conflict as an opportunity to be exploited. An example would be Turkey, in 1996 there was an assault on Kurdish communities in the south. 30000 villages were bombed and there were 1 million refugees. The American government responded by making Turkey the number one country to receive US aid, war is profitable. This is not an isolated incident if your an ally them your crimes are hidden. Saudi Arabia is like Iran a middle eastern theocratic state with human rights issues and [even greater] involvement in international affairs (particularly in the Muslim world). Why are Iran sanctioned and not Saudi, is it just oil. Look at Syria and Jordan both are next to each other (Arabs call this region the Sham because of cultural similarities between their Arabs who live there) both are secular states, both are oppressive regimes, one is on the terror list the other is ignored by the media and given aid.

    7. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Dunbal · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What has Iran ever done to us

            Read some history.

            While US foreign policy is far from perfect, Iran certainly has blood on its hands too. Playing innocent won't fool anyone. Let's start with the storming of the US embassy and hostage taking, and go from there, shall we?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    8. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by omar.sahal · · Score: 1

      The US but the UK works closely with the US and collaborates on any issues such as coups in former colonies, ditto France.

    9. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by BangaIorean · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They keep threatening to wipe an entire country off the map. And that country happens to be an American ally. Moreover, they're ruled by nutjobs and mad mullahs who keep saying things like "South Koreans should be slapped till they become human", "Australians are a bunch of cow herders", and so on. These are official statements from the Iranian regime, remember. The regime is seriously insane and unstable. And yeah - they keep passing sentences to have people stoned to death even today.

    10. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Their real crime was overthrowing the CIA asset who was running the country on behalf of the US. That and living on top of a substantial oil reserve.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    11. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Im guessing the fact that the US (and the UK) had kept a brutal dictator in power in Iran for several decades prior to that, plus the fact that the US were punishing Iranians for overthrowing said dictator (freezing Iranian assets in the US) had nothing to do with the hostage crisis...

    12. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Iran is a country of great people run by douchebags. We should be encouraging Iranian citizens to peacefully but emphatically toss those bums out and elect a REAL representative government. We should not be undermining efforts to do so as that pussy Obammy did in his first days in office.

    13. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For example, Iran is primarily Shiite. So is a large proportion of the population of Iraq which is next door. Therefore it is natural for the nation of Iraq to form close ties with Iran.

      Heh, Iran and Iraq was at war for 8 years in the 1980s including chemical warfare. Saddam was no friend of Iran either, for as long as he was in power. They're both muslims like most of the Middle East but I don't think they're all that close. Ahmadinejad seems like the last with any real military ambition, which is what makes him scary. Oh there's dictatorships other places but they seem mostly content with ruling their own little patch of land. And him alone I wouldn't worry much about either, what I do fear is if he manages to trigger some sort of christian-muslim war instead of just Iraq vs Israel or whatever.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    14. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by siwelwerd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That may have had just a little bit to do with us overthrowing their democratically elected government and installing a dictator of our choosing.

    15. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by heffrey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A more pertinent question would be to ask what the US did to Iran. And the answer was that the USA killed off Iran's fledgling democracy in 1953 and thus secured a never ending period of hate and distrust.

    16. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What has Iran ever done to us

      They have oil. And they are not Christians.

    17. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by omar.sahal · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      wow modded troll! Please someone tell me why!

    18. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (-1, Traitor) doesn't exist...

    19. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by schwit1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "If we kept our noses out of others business, the World would probably be a much different place and there would be less hatred towards us." And a lot more people would be speaking Japanese or German or Russian.

    20. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by mpe · · Score: 1

      Im guessing the fact that the US (and the UK) had kept a brutal dictator in power in Iran for several decades prior to that,

      As well as having put him in power in the first place. Iran being one of several countries where the US destroyed democratic governments in the latter half of the 20th century.

      plus the fact that the US were punishing Iranians for overthrowing said dictator (freezing Iranian assets in the US) had nothing to do with the hostage crisis...

      There's also the issue of how many of the people held hostage were those you'd expect to find in a diplomatic mission.

    21. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by SirRedTooth · · Score: 0, Troll

      If i had mod points right now I would mod you up

    22. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      Heh, Iran and Iraq was at war for 8 years in the 1980s including chemical warfare. Saddam was no friend of Iran either, for as long as he was in power.

      Saddam was no friend of the Iraqi people either. Remember that though the government was secular, there was still a general state of Sunni domination over the Shiite majority (+Kurds). You'd better believe that the Iraqi people today are more inclined to side with Iran than the US. The Sunnis not so much, but the Shiite, yes. I'm not saying the countries are going to merge or anything stupid like that, but Iran is a more natural ally to Iraq (culture, strategic aims, geographical proximity) than the US is (different culture, wrecked your country, helped set up the previous dictator, sold you out during the Kuwait war, threatens your popular leaders, forces your government to sign hugely partial oil-export deals, occupies the country militarily, forces its laws upon you, forbids local companies and workers from bidding on contracts to re-build their own country, the list goes on...). Nah, the big fear of the US during the post-war occupation was that Iraq would lean toward a close relationship with Iran.

      And him alone I wouldn't worry much about either, what I do fear is if he manages to trigger some sort of christian-muslim war instead of just Iraq vs Israel or whatever.

      The vast majority of muslims (remember there are about 2 billion world wide) just want to get on with their lives the same as everybody else. Whatever religious rhetoric gets thrown about, war or peace will happen based on real-world cost-benefit. Israel is the elephant in the china shop and if they get involved... it will result in a huge amount of death and misery for the whole region.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    23. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      It's not what Ahmedinejad says that is worrysome. It's what he doesn't say: that the nuclear capabilities of Iran are a direct threat to some Sunni regimes in their environment. The Shia-Sunni angle is too often forgotten, but it is the main motivator for Iran's leaders (which Ahmedinejad is not necessarily).

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    24. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by h4rm0ny · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What has Iran ever done to us

      Read some history.

      Well that answers what the US has done to Iran, but not so much the other way around. Okay...

      Let's start with the storming of the US embassy and hostage taking, and go from there, shall we?

      Your starting point is the seizing of the US embassy during a revolution when the US had just seized Iranian assets, was supporting the dictator of the country and when there are peristent rumours that the embassy in question was containing rather more than diplomatic staff. Now, as you say, let's go on from there and see what other crimes Iran has perpetuated on the US people. The floor is yours...

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    25. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by asadsalm · · Score: 0

      Huh? This is an insightful comment? Meta Moderators, where are you?

    26. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bullshit. Defending yourself is a completely different scenario.

    27. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because people who know very little of actual history and swallow US centric propaganda in its place have mod points.
      Many people don't know or just deny the circumstances and events which have lead to most of the political problems between Iran and the west.

    28. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I believe the point was to leave other countries alone to deal with their own internal problems, rather than acting like big brother to the whole world.

    29. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by professionalfurryele · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately when the Ottoman Empire collapsed the West redrew the map of the Middle East without much attention being paid to ethnic or religious divides. Iraq under the Ba'athist was dominated to an extent by the Sunni minority. The regions bordering Iran are majority Shi'ite. With the fall of Saddam's Ba'athist regime solidarity among Shi'ites complicates matters of security, especially when you consider that during the first Gulf War the allied forces incited a primarily Shi'ite rebellion inside the South of Iraq only to abandon it once Kuwait was liberated.
      The West's past conduct hasn't exactly endeared us to the Shi'ites in the south of Iraq, and Iran is certainly a natural ally after all we screwed them over as well by installing the Shah and generally interfering where we weren't wanted. The whole situation is a messy series of botch-ups by everyone involved.

    30. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by omar.sahal · · Score: 1

      Let's start with the storming of the US embassy and hostage taking, and go from there, shall we?

      Why start there is it because the past makes Irans acts seem more reasonable. Why can we not look at interactions put them in a time line and see the train of events. This clearly is better than making arbitrary cut off points. Besides are you sure The US would come out the most wronged party even if we accepted your arbitrary cut of date, what was their role in the Iraq Iran war
      It's obvious from my comments how I view Iran and other middle eastern states, oppression is oppression. But you know there is one problem all people seem to have with the actions of others viewed as a serious breach of acceptable behaviour. Your own misdeeds are viewed differently. This can be detected as soon as you here the terms "that's different" or "you don't understand" when comparing similar actions. There is also a counter argument that goes "that's our culture" made by the other which is simply the "you don't understand" argument in a foreign language.

    31. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by mutube · · Score: 1

      For example, Iran is primarily Shiite.

      Come on, they're not that bad

    32. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by mrops · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am honestly hoping
      A) Iran is not as stupid as I hear in the media, however they keep their scary/crazy image.
      B) Iran gets nukes in the next few years

      A & B is the only way I see Israel sticking to UN resolution, stop their illegal settlements, stop their abuse and even the end of Hamas.

      Israel is not going to comply to UN demands with slap on the wrist it gets. It needs a regional power willing to fight for the other side instead of sticks and stones vs multimillion dollar weaponry.

      Having said that, I see balance of power between restored between Israel/Iran, however I can see Saudi's wanting nuke next, as the balance of power is severely lop sided there (except US may assure saudi's they are there for them.

      Nonetheless, IMO its going to be for better.

    33. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by mrops · · Score: 1

      Since this is the land of the free, here are my 2 cents

      Robin Hood is good, Hezbollah is bad. Masses are so lame, they believe what they are fed. There is no room for rebels rising against a corrupt power anymore.

      Hamas and Hezbollah are nothing more than modern day Robin Hood.

    34. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      They have supported terrorist organizations in Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Israel.

      They have threatened to wipe our ally Israel off the map.

      Their goal is almost the same as the taliban: Uniting the world under islam, imposing harsh sharia law on all people, concentrating all wealth and power in the hands of a few corrupt clerics/imams, and the conversion or extermination of all non believers. The only difference is that the taliban also wants to wipe out all scientific knowledge as well, while Iran is willing to use that knowledge toward its goals.

    35. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      It's simple Scarface economics...

      That's appropriate for today's announcement of Iran's new bombing drones.
      Ahmadinejad: Say hello to my little friend...

    36. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by dupup · · Score: 1

      For example, Iran is primarily Shiite. So is a large proportion of the population of Iraq which is next door. Therefore it is natural for the nation of Iraq to form close ties with Iran.

      Heh, Iran and Iraq was at war for 8 years in the 1980s including chemical warfare. Saddam was no friend of Iran either, for as long as he was in power.

      Yeah, both Muslims, but different flavors. Saddam and his crew were Sunni despite the fact that Iraq is majority Shiite. Now that he's gone, the government in Iraq, when it finally emerges, will likely by Shiite, reflecting the majority of the Iraq population. The natural assumption is that Iraq and Iran will strengthen ties.

    37. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can't understand why people mention that Israel supported Hamas as if it's an excuse for Iran's behaviour today. Talk about a logical fallacy...

      Yes, Israel supported Hamas - very briefly, during Hamas's founding, as a more moderate alternative to Fatah, who back then were commiting suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks like Hamas has done in recent years. In short, Israel - again, very briefly - supported Hamas due to not having a crystal ball and seeing their true aims - call it stupidity, even.

      But that has nothing to do with why Iran supports Hamas and Hezbollah. Iran supports these groups knowing fully what their mission is. Iran supports these groups knowing that their aim is to kill innocent people. Iran also knows that they are listed as terrorist groups by the EU and US. Iran isn't supporting them due to stupidity like Israel, it's due to sheer hatred and their wish to see innocent people die.

      Fuck Iran.

    38. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1, Insightful


      Iran is not the crazy state that you hear about in the media. You can pretty much discount much of the mainstream media for actual assessments. For better analysis you want to read the financial news or paid risk analysis groups like Stratfor whose customers aren't after entertainment but actual assessments for their business and therefore have a critical incentive to deliver accurate information.

      Doesn't mean we wont see military action however. Israel has a tactical advantage in being thought willing to make a unilateral strike against Iran, so whether or not they are, or whether they are merely bluffing, we cannot know. We can know that the US government considers it a real risk however, due to the frantic running around they've done trying to defuse the situation, sign up countries to support non-military options such as sanctions, trying to negotiate extra time in place of Israel's demands and, tellingly, media blitzes on how dastardly Iran is just in case they really do get sucked into a war by Israel.

      It really does seem that only a balance of military power will reign in Israel's behaviour. Which is a terrible inditement of the Israeli government. The main concern is that Israel may attempt to prevent this happening.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    39. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      America is a country of great people run by douchebags. We should be encouraging American citizens to peacefully but emphatically toss those bums out and elect a REAL representative government.

    40. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to you - nothing. but u are not the US government. The US government is completely separate from the US people, more so than any other country. They have their own agenda..
      There is no "us" in their minds, at least not the "us" you're thinking of!!

    41. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by roman_mir · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They keep threatening to wipe an entire country off the map

      - while they are only threatening, the US HAS DONE SO.

      US has wiped a country off a map, it was called Iraq. You can argue all you want about Saddam being a terrible person, but during Saddam, Iraq HAD ELECTRICAL POWER. Which is insanely important if you live in that EXTREMELY HOT part of the world.

      You don't understand HOW HOT, it's not Texas or Alabama or Arizona, or Mexico, it is FUCKING hot. Iraq had people EMPLOYED. Nobody was EXPLODING BOMBS in markets during the day.

      Now people are out of job, bombs are exploding almost daily, people are dying ALL THE TIME. There IS no electrical power, no matter what the US tells you right now, that Iraq has more MW output than it had during Saddam, this output is NOT making it to any actual apartments. The infrastructure is destroyed, no WIRES, OK?

      AFAIC USA HAS DESTROYED IRAQ.

      So you know what? USA should SHUT THE FUCK UP about Iran 'threatening' anybody, USA has done much much much worse, it ACTUALLY DESTROYED a country.

      Anybody without nuclear weapons that has any resources USA is interested in is in danger and should acquire all the military power they can and should unite against the actual aggressor, which United States has shown to be over and over and over and over. It's just a fact.

    42. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by astar · · Score: 1

      Your argument is not nutty, but here is a different thread.

      Suppose the USA and friends just do not want nuclear power anywhere that they do not have a stranglehold on. Oh sure, Iran with nuclear weapons in the present circumstances would be highly undesirable. On the other hand, you have to reach quite a long way to say that building a nuke power plant is somehow against the law for a nation state. Now Iran does have *some* inspection requirements that they have signed up for. And there is a somewhat ancient treaty that binds them anyway. But not the requirements I hear slimy usa types claim. But I suppose if you want to say that whatever the security council says is the law? hmm. I do not think you want to go there!

      How far does my argument go? It includes a full fuel cycle, on Iran's territory.

      Asia is going nuclear. For a country like India, nuclear power is an existential issue. The US and Europe? It is not that they are "green", it is that they are "brown". No future under current policies, and real close to no future at all.

      As far as your argument goes, you need to go back to the 19th century I think. Sykes? The policy for that part of asia has been external control through generating local wars. Try that for your context.

    43. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While the USA has indeed made mistakes, trust me, if the Iranians had the capability that the US does, they would have been much worse.

    44. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      We had our chance with the last Iranian election.

      But we decided to not inflame the situation by staying out of it,

      we tried to avoid a repeat of the last time we overthrew the Iranian government.

      And the rebellion was crushed.

    45. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      What has Iran ever done to us

      It's made some of us worry. Some would argue that the US and Israel terrorize plenty of people worldwide, and so what goes around comes around. I would counter that two wrongs don't make a right, and most of the people killed in a nuclear blast or dirty bomb won't be the people who decided the US should be a bully in the first place. Others would argue that the US has nukes and we're the only ones who have ever used them, why shouldn't Iran have them? I would counter that we need fewer nuclear-armed hotheaded politicians not fewer. If Iran getting nukes means the US loses its nukes, and I trusted Iran to not use them as much as I trust the US to not use them, then fine, fair trade, my national pride doesn't require my country to have weapons of mass destruction and I'd be more proud that we were mature enough to give them up.

    46. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What has Iran ever done to us

      This comment is disgusting. Don't speak about things when you are woefully ignorant.

      It's not always about what someone has done to you. What has Iran done in general? Why does it have to be about you? Where to start? Off the top of my head alone:

      1. Jailed, executed, and tortured large parts of its own population. See most recent political dissent via peaceful protests as an example.

      2. Forced a large part of its educated population to flee to places like the United States. Ever wonder why in places like NYC and LA there is a strong Iranian community? They're not coming here for the burgers generally.

      3. Operated numerous terrorist proxies, both at the organization and the state level. At the very least with a strong influence and funding. Examples include:
      -----Hezbollah - responsible for wars, executions, deaths, considered terrorist group by entire world almost.
      -----Lebanon - arguably a Syrian proxy, but Iran did a lot to destabilize this country for a long time and fund various terrorist groups inside.
      -----Hamas - the largest funder of Hamas, also considered by the world a terrorist group. Responsible for countless deaths through terrorist, not military attacks.
      -----Various ties to other groups including Islamic Jihad, Chechnya, Taliban, etc. at various points

      4. Ethnically cleansed or forcefully exiled various religious/social groups such as Jews. Violently against homosexuality, and certain haircuts (no, I am not joking).

      5. Actively called for the destruction of Israel and attempted to rally other muslim nations into war against Israel. This isn't a war of justice or even attrition but ambitious genocide. If any other nation was threatened in this manner, they'd steam roll their neighbor. I shudder to think if the US was threatened by a neighbor with nuclear ambitions what it would do. Pakistan is already enough of a problem for someone like India. You may not care, but it's things like this that bring as close to nuclear war in this age as we are going to get. Notice that another Islamic state already exists with this capability and already is a huge problem. Now look at the size of India vs. Israel and tell me why Israel cares. If you think Israel would use nukes without provocation, you are a moron. Things would be a lot easier for them now rather than to have to deal with this kind of bs.

      6. General rallying cry to nations and peoples that support violence and intolerance. These same people were literally dancing in the street and celebrating during terrorist attacks on many of your countries, for example September 11th.

      Iran has a long history of lying, cheating, aggression, oppression, intolerance, and militarism. It's used other countries and organizations to actively (key word) engage in violence in the modern world against sovereign states and ethnic groups. Other than North Korea, there are few countries that are run by greater lunatics looking to bring war and destruction. It's like something out of a bad 80s movie or cartoon. I highly doubt Iran just wants some protoculture.

      If you really want to know why a country like Iran should not have nuclear material of any kind, why don't you talk to educated and politically aware Indians, South Koreans, and Israelis. Maybe you should also talk to some Iraq veterans because of this kind of behavior keeps up, guess where they are headed next. I'm sorry to say but if you support Iran in any way, you're doing a disservice to the Iranian people, its neighbors, and the world. You make me sick.

    47. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by boxwood · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Putting the Sunnis in charge of Iraq wasn't an oversight, it was intentional. The Sunni sect is more moderate than the Shia and thus easier for the British to deal with.

      And Iraq is a Arab nation on the Tigris and Euphrates river system. Iran is a Persian nation. If you somehow combined the Shia part of Iraq with Iran, you'd end up with a nation with a Persian majority and an Arab minority.

    48. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      WHY should I trust YOU on this? For real? Do you have actual PROOF? No. USA killed plenty of people in dozens of military conflicts, it doesn't like to call wars since the WWII ended.

      USA has funded militants all over the world to fight wars by proxy, a simple example is Bin Laden, who was fighting USSR for the US as a proxy on US dime.

      Why would I ever trust US at all? It is NOT a trustworthy country in terms of its politics.

      It's the only country to explode a nuclear weapon (even 2) over other nation territory targeting civilians.

      It is using its wars to make money. Right now Iraq military invasion is over, but the civilian invasion is only beginning, with private contractors taking everything they can from that place.

      No, I do NOT trust YOU.

    49. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I don't think "fuck Israel", because I don't see Israel supporting terrorist groups who have killed and maimed hundreds of people. If the Israeli government started supporting Israeli equivalents of Hamas and Hezbollah, then you would have a point.

    50. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by mangu · · Score: 1

      If that were a reasonable argument the Soviet embassy in Washington should have been invaded in the 1950s. Citation among many others.

    51. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by internewt · · Score: 1

      But, but, but..... Iran is bad, mmmkay. The TV told me!

      Anyway....

      The kinda irony with this nuclear power plant is that uranium fission for electricity was commercialised partly due to a side effect: the production of plutonium. I think I am right in saying that there is more thorium in the Earth's crust than uranium, thorium is more easily available, it is fissionable, and doesn't produce the same pollutants (or explosives, if you want to look at it like that) that the fission of uranium does.

      If the west doesn't want countries producing nuclear weapons, why not help them with a thorium based fission plant? Or perhaps the ownership of nuclear weapons isn't the whole story?

      The west actually seems to want to keep countries down economically, any way they can (you can't be rich, unless there are poor). Energy freedom is a major thing for human civilisations.

      --
      Car analogies break down.
    52. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I stopped reading at "According to Noam Chomsky"

    53. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by bsDaemon · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The Israeli version is called the IDF. Just because they're state actors doesn't make them any more legitimate. Lest we forget, they repeatedly attacked the USS Liberty, flying under flag in international waters, in an attempt to destroy NSA recordings of sigint mass-executions of Arab civilians by the IDF during the Six-day War in 1967.

    54. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by dbIII · · Score: 1

      They keep threatening to wipe an entire country off the map

      But it's a very long way off, they don't have the means to do it and if they did it would not benefit Iran much at all. It's called sabre rattling to get popular support, and it's being done by a guy that wants to run the country but is really like a US style Vice President. There's a lot wrong with the Iranian regime but if they were serious about Israel they would have done a bit more than given very old rockets they don't need anymore to Hizbolla. Israel has far less to fear from Iran than places like Bahrain which may be in danger of threats from a nuclear armed Iran.
      The war killed off huge numbers of people and then they had the mother of all baby booms. The generation in their twenties has a very different ideology and will change the place beyond recognition.

    55. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Xyrus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Saddam was a puppet for the US. He fought our proxy war against Iran. We supplied him with the weapons to do so. We turned a blind eye to all the atrocities that were committed.

      Iraq has the taint of the US, an Iran has plenty of reasons to not like the US. Those in power might not want to share ties, but the people would probably get along just fine.

      --
      ~X~
    56. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Iran is helping the underdog, and has an actual valid case

      How valid is that case is a matter of opinion.

      If Iran were honestly helping the underdog, they would stop persecuting the Bahai community, which is much closer to their country than Israel.

      To sanctimoniously help some "underdog" use terrorism in order to further your ambitions isn't really what I would call a "valid" case.

    57. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Teancum · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Too many people think that (-1, Troll) means (-1, I disagree with your political viewpoint) Unfortunately those don't always get yanked out in the meta-moderation process and furthermore the moderation process turns into a sort of political flame war trying to get their viewpoint modded up to the top.

      There are trollish comments made to many stories that legitimately deserve this moderation, especially when it is off topic. I'm going dangerously off-topic here myself even for responding, but sometimes a "meta conversation" about the moderation process is appropriate on slashdot when a clear-cut example shows up like this. Moderation is intended to pull out the advertisements for Viagra, the GNAA, and other pure garbage that has nothing to do with the topic in the story at hand. Mod those type of comments down and let us read the stuff that has at least some reasoned opinions even if it may not be something you like.

      BTW, (-1, Flamebait) is also not (-1, I disagree). Sometimes a person may be attempting to provoke a fight, but it would be useful to actually read the comment first before moderating in that manner. For me, labeling something flamebait is even more frequently applied merely because of a disagreement of a political viewpoint. If anything, I now sort of wear a flamebait moderation as a badge of honor as it implies that I touched a raw nerve politically speaking. For myself, I treat it more as (-1, Personal attack), as comments that cut down a poster in an insulting manner ought to be modded down.

      Otherwise, my response to this question is: Welcome to Slashdot! The moderation system is what it is.

    58. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      Oh that the Sunni's ended up in control of Iraq certainly wasn't an accident. There were no good ways to divide up the Middle East with the fall of the Ottomans, that doesn't mean that the British and French did a particularly good job of it. Al Kut and Al Basrah certainly don't belong in a Persian state but putting them in a nation of Kurds and Sunni was not particularly sensible either.

    59. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by mangu · · Score: 1

      If you look at the map of the Sykes-Picot Agreement you'll see that they had considered that.

      The Shia area of current Iraq would be a British colony, while the Sunni part would be a French protectorate. Too bad the Kurds were completely forgotten in the pact.

    60. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by wadeal · · Score: 1, Troll

      You mean like the way Israel was created on the blood of the Palestinians who had lived there for how long? Israel's friends came in and blew the Palestinians to shit and now Israel keep them literally fenced in, kept down. Israel's equivalent to Hamas would be it's own armed forces, the amount of innocent Palestinians killed by them would far outweigh any damage from Hamas/Hezbollah. Maybe read a book other than "America Fuck Yeah!"

    61. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Saddam was Suni, and used violent means to keep the Sunni in power over the majority Shiites. Without him, it is possible ties between Iran and Iraq will improve.

    62. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also:
      - Supports Hamas.
      - Supports Hezbollah.
      - Held a conference for Holocaust deniers to discuss the "legitimacy" of the Holocaust.
      - Denies the rights of women.
      - Denies the rights of gays.

    63. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by mangu · · Score: 1

      US has wiped a country off a map, it was called Iraq

      Checks World map. Nope, it's still there. When you wipe a country off the map you do it like North Vietnam did when they invaded South Vietnam, a border ceases to exist.

      As for exploding bombs in markets, there's a very big [Citation Needed] here. Are American suicide soldiers wearing bomb vests and blowing them up?

      AFAIK the motivation for suicide terrorists is the promise of going to a paradise with a bunch of virgins. The Iranian government officially believes this to be true, they are a theocracy. This is no proof that Iran is behind the terrorists in Iraq, of course, but it's a plausible theory at least.

    64. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by shentino · · Score: 1

      They tried that.

      Someone fucked with the election, Khameni called it 'divine will" and promptly instituted a crackdown where "people who continue to protest the results do so at the risk of their own lives" by pretty much declaring it apostasy to dissent.

    65. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by roman_mir · · Score: 0, Troll

      Oil is blood, both literally and figuratively speaking.

      BP feeds on blood. BP (then Anglo Persian Oil Company) has caused the UK and US to overthrow the democratic government of Iran just to get a little better contract on extracting the oil there.

      Then later BP caused a major disaster in the Gulf of Mexico.

      I think BP is actually a vampire.

    66. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by hort_wort · · Score: 1

      What's really funny is that that expression doesn't even make sense in his language.... Which means that someone LIED about Ahmadinejad saying it. It was probably some press person who wanted a story.

    67. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by dave420 · · Score: 1

      A dodgy translation was the source of that first quote. He actually said he hoped the Israeli regime would collapse, something many people across the world (including western Europe and the US) also hope for. Those other quotes were in response to those countries voting to impose sanctions on Iran, and came from the First Vice President, who is essentially a puppet in the regime. He's marginalised within his own country - why anyone else in the world listens to him is beyond me. But then I guess it makes good press, which people (like yourself) seem to lap up.

    68. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Cwix · · Score: 1

      After reading up on the incident you mention, it seems rather likely it was a case of friendly fire.

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    69. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Many people seem to forget that Iran and Iraq were very popular places to visit - democratic, secular, wealthy, and progressive. Then the west started fucking with them from all sides (and from within), in order to get at their tasty oil, and since then things have gone to pot. There were intrinsic issues with both countries, but they were seriously exacerbated by the incessant meddling, and that is something no country should have to go through.

    70. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      And then YOU should CHECK what Iran said about Israel: The regime in Jerusalem must be wiped out of the time. (that was the literal translation)

      So WHAT is the difference between USA and Iran?

      The difference is: Iran talks big and USA invades a working country FOR NOW GODDAMN REASON and OVER AND MILLION people DIE.

      So you know what, there are no words harsh enough to describe the hatred, there is no need for words. Things need to be done.

    71. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by dave420 · · Score: 1

      No, he said he hoped the Israeli regime would collapse. You are referring to the dodgy translation that was hastily posted. Anyone who can read Persian knows what he actually said. Iran's goal is nothing like the Taliban. Iran just wants to exist, without being screwed with. Which is a luxury they have not been afforded for decades.

    72. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Or French. No, wait. No chance of that!

    73. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right now, we're just dealing with karma of past actions by our government. If we kept our noses out of others business, the World would probably be a much different place and there would be less hatred towards us.

      Yeah, I know right?! Man, that whole thing we did in the 40's, getting our nose involved in the ongoings in Europe and the Pacific - man, we really should have just stayed out of that whole thing. You're right, though - the world would be different: Europe would be speaking Italian and German. I love naive comments like yours, that think the world is such a simple and wonderful place that you can solve it in a couple sentences.

    74. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by NetNinja · · Score: 1

      All emabassys are CIA safe houses just like all other consulates.

      Don't be niave.

    75. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by andoman2000 · · Score: 0, Troll

      You seriously want someone who has vowed to use them to have nukes? They've said time and time again that they will attack the US, UK, and Israel as soon as they obtain nukes and you support this? I'm the kind of guy that believes people when they say things (especially crazy things like wanting WWIII to reveal the last imam) and I fully support taking these guys out before they can continue with their crazy plans.

    76. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i predict israel will bomb them within 3 days.

      and, oh... americans sentences do it with chemicals, much better, much better.

      Iran has not attacked anyone, had a war with iraq, because americans supported saddam to attack iran...

    77. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by blackraven14250 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Messing with Iran was in response to Soviet expansionism.

    78. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by andoman2000 · · Score: 0

      The mod system sucks big floppy donkey dick because this place is filled with 14 year old boys still going through their anarchy is cool phase.

    79. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by couchslug · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Bullshit. Defending yourself is a completely different scenario."

      Better take a closer look at why we went to war.

      US intervention by petroleum and scrap iron embargo in behalf of the Kuomintang (our public, especially missionaries, were Sinophiles at the time) forced the Japs to choose between fight or caving in. The attack at Pearl was "provoked" by the standards of the time, but failure to get the declaration of war delivered in time backfired on Hirohito. The US had been helping kill Japanese (Flying Tigers ring a bell? Great unit, but it bears reminding that they were mercs!) in substantial numbers well before December 7th.

      The US was shipping war materiel to England and taking part as a belligerent. We were killing front-line German naval personnel while shipping ordnance and food to their opponents.

      Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with all that. It's Big Boy politics, not effeminate hand-wringing. that gets shit done. I do take exception to pretending the truth never happened. If we can get comfortable with truth, we can act without Politically Correct pretense.

      As to Russia, the US tried to overthrow the Bolsheviks and established itself as a threat to them at the start of their revolution.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entente_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    80. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      He actually said he hoped the Israeli regime would collapse, something many people across the world (including western Europe and the US) also hope for.

      Racism hasn't died out, either. If you think the root cause is the actions of the government, rather than finding a reason to justify a deep-seated hatred, you'd be sorely mistaken.

    81. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by chrb · · Score: 1

      Heh, Iran and Iraq was at war for 8 years in the 1980s including chemical warfare. Saddam was no friend of Iran either, for as long as he was in power. They're both muslims like most of the Middle East but I don't think they're all that close.

      The problem with that argument is that Saddam brutally oppressed the Shia. Saddams military was dominated by Sunnis. Saddam was no friend of Iran, but he was also no friend of Iraqi Shia.

      "Shia Muslims were oppressed by Iraq's Baathist regime for more than 30 years and excluded from the highest ranks of power..... Under his rule, Shia opposition groups were fiercely oppressed and political and religious leaders murdered. As a result, the opposition tended to look to neighbouring Iran, which is also governed by Shia religious leaders, for support." Who are the Iraqi Shia?

    82. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by bsDaemon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, because friendly fire generally consists of several runs by torpedo boats and attack aircraft on a registered ship under flag in international waters... Check the chapter on it in 'Body of Secrets' by James Bamford, who is a former Navy intelligence analyst and has written several books about the NSA. Also, check some of the first-hand accounts by the sailors who were on the ship.

    83. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by hitmark · · Score: 1, Interesting

      While my source material is limited, it seems the action was more related to loosing control over Iranian oil, and a fear of soviet expansionism, then any actual expansion in the region. During the time in question, more where done because of fear then actual threats from the soviets. In a way, the red scare of that time parallels the terrorist fear of today.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    84. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by chrb · · Score: 1

      They keep threatening to wipe an entire country off the map.

      Do they? Or is that just a reference to a famously disputed translation of a single speech fives years ago?

      they keep passing sentences to have people stoned to death even today.

      Many states in the U.S. keep passing sentences to have people executed, even today. Does it really matter what the method of execution is? Dead is still dead.

    85. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Well they arrested some US soldiers that were bouncing around in their coastal waters and then, er, gave them back a few days later after questioning.

      No, they didn't.

      End result: A country that doesn't have to do what you tell it to. And that's a big problem when you want to dominate the area.

      Garbage. Most of the countries in the area can ignore US demands. Hell, Saudi Arabia can pretty much dictate terms to the yanks at this point.

    86. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      Nuclear is not the cheapest form of electricity even in the US. In Iran it would likely be much more expensive. Especially since they need help from Russia to even do it at all. Now does Iran have the right to nuclear power? I would say yes they do. Is it in US interests to allow them a virtually unlimited supply of plutonium? Probably not. And look at things from Israel's POV. If Israel acts in their self interest they will go to war with Iran as soon as there is any sign that Iran is attempting to turn plutonium into bombs. Frankly I don't really see why Iran would want to get involved with the Israel-Palestine issue. It's not really any of their business. But if Iran claims that as soon as they have a nuke they are going to attack Israel with it then, well, we really are talking about an actual nuclear war. The first real one in human history. It's strongly in the interest of the rest of the world to make sure that doesn't happen. Definitely worth going to (conventional) war to avoid.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    87. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by hitmark · · Score: 1

      its the same reason why post-colonial africa have been civil war after civil war. The modern national borders are based on colonial holdings, not how the various peoples where distributed geographically.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    88. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by L0rdJedi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Iran is not the crazy state that you hear about in the media.

      Really? So Mahmoud Ahmadinajed (and I don't care if it is spelled wrong) doesn't want to see the destruction of Israel and doesn't deny the holocaust happened? I think Iran is the crazy state we hear about.

      Maybe, just maybe, if this wasn't about weapons, they'd let inspectors from the IAEA check the facilities out and they'd disclose all of the facilities. You are aware that one of their nuclear plants was only "disclosed" after it was accidentally found, right?

    89. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by L0rdJedi · · Score: 1

      They, along with Syria, are (allegedly) a major source of funding and weapons for Hezballah. So Israel cares, which makes the US Government care. But I really don't give a shit. If they're powering their country with nukes, then they can burn less oil, which means more can be available on the market. It's simple Scarface economics -- "don't get high off your own supply."

      Hahahaha. Yes, because I'm sure they'll make that oil available "on the market". Or maybe they'll just decide to stop outputting oil and bring the world to it's knees.

    90. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by xmundt · · Score: 1

      Greetings and Salutations....
                I have to say that the phrase "Friendly Fire" has bothered me for decades. Frankly, if someone is shooting at me, I do not care if it is my brother...it is NOT friendly! I realize there is a need to differentiate bullets from allies from bullets from the enemy, but would suggest that something more like "misdirected allied fire" or "FURBAR fire" would be more accurate and descriptive.
                Pleasant dreams
                dave mundt

      --
      YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
    91. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Iran has never threatened to wipe Israel off the map, get your facts straight by maybe reading the actual transcript of that speech, not the half translated mess FOX played. They are a member of the NTP, they have every legal right to operate that reactor, they are NOT enriching uranium to the 90%+ needed for weapons, they are currently enriching to 2.5 (3.5?) for power use, and will ramp it up to 20% for medical isotopes. The IAEA inspections have always stated no weapons program since 2003. Iran is shipping spent fuel rods back to russia for processing so they can't get plutonium needed for bombs. Hell, they have even offered any country, including the US, to come in, help build and supervise the reactors, as well as offering to send the spent fuel wherever the hell they want it.

      Internal politics aside, Iran poses a threat to no one, and has yet to over step their NPT duties.

      Israel has a clandestine nuclear weapons program under the dimona reactor. Israel is NOT a member of the NPT. Israel refuses to allow IAEA inspections. Israel refuses to follow UN resolutions and sanctions. Israel continually and habitually attacks it's neighbors, claiming self defense while actually grabbing land. Israel has openly stated they will use their "sampson option" which means, even though they refuse to acknowledge or deny their nuclear weapons, means they will wipe most of europe, if not the entire world, out if they feel they are about to lose a conflict.

    92. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by moxley · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Oh, you mean after the CIA overthrew a popular, truly democratic freely elected president (Mossdegh) - and installed a brutally repressive "company man" (the Shah) with his dreaded SAVAK secret police, utilizing that embassy as a base and storage which documented all of these activities.

      Operation AJAX. It was led by Kermit Roosevelt and became the template for ousting leaders who preferred to take care of their obligations to their own people rather than selling their people out for whatever corporate/oil interests the CIA was backing; a template that the CIA would use many times over around the world.

      That "hostage crisis" where IIRC none of the hostages were killed, despite the fact that the students, after painstakingly reconstructing shredded papers learned the true extent to which America was involved in turning their country into a nightmare.

      I am an American, and I love my country - but that doesn't mean that it is okay our government to do this shit, it;s wrong, and it always comes back to haunt us.

    93. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Fallen+Kell · · Score: 1

      If they ever get a nuclear weapon, then Israel will have to treat them as a military equal.

      Actually, given Iran's position that the state of Israel does not even exist, that the holocaust did not happen, and that the Jews are invaders in the Holy Land, that if Iran gets a nuclear weapon, or even gets close to getting one, there will be full blown war between Israel and Iran (or at least immediate action to destroy the weapon and/or the capability to produce them in Iran).

      --
      We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
    94. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhhh, OK, I'm guessing public school... Not familiar with the '72 Munich Olympics (that little scuffle was lead by..... you guessed it, Mahmoud "Mr Peaceful" Ahmadinejad. The hostage crisis of '79 where we had another bland piece of crap president sit on his ass making whining little noises sucking the rest of the worlds collective D*** raising taxes and killing jobs (sound familiar) while Iran held 60 some odd people for over a year until Ronald Reagan convinced them another type of nuclear Iran might be a good thing.

      Iran has been supporter and financier of terrorism since right after the Shaw fell. They went from one of the most democratic and educated countries in the middle east to one of the most fascist almost overnight. If they are allowed to gain (and they're almost there) advanced weaponry on a large scale there's no end to the harm "Mr Peaceful's" regime will do. Particularly since they've been great buddies with Russia and China lately. I'm sure you'd like to see the US become a 3rd world shit hole but I'd rather not...

    95. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      is your caps lock broken or something? I know they say you should only believe half you read, but that doesn't mean people only read half of what you write UNLESS you put RANDOM words in caps. Maybe you talk like that. Tourette's?

      And I didn't comment about the content, because, although maybe too far to the America is always evil extreme, your points are valid. America sometimes does bad things for selfish reasons. But your writing style is annoying and unnecessary.

    96. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Cwix · · Score: 1

      I was trying to use a term that everyone would understand. I agree the term doesn't describe it properly.

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    97. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      No, he said he hoped the Israeli regime would collapse. You are referring to the dodgy translation that was hastily posted. Anyone who can read Persian knows what he actually said. Iran's goal is nothing like the Taliban. Iran just wants to exist, without being screwed with. Which is a luxury they have not been afforded for decades.

      Interesting. This has been brought up several times today. Certainly, bad translations have been responsible for many wars, conflicts and general bad karma. However, if Mr. Five O'Clock Shadow really had been quoted incorrectly, he's had plenty of time to go back and correct any misunderstandings. Haven't seen that.

      His pronouncements about recent history (WWII) are also pretty off the mark (the Holocaust didn't happen). He certainly comes across as a major nutjob, nut unlike Sarah Palin for example. I think he's quite a bit smarter than that (or her) and is carefully crafting his message in order to gain support among certain factions that would not normally be supportive. But if that's the case, there are ways of getting that message to everybody else in Charge of Things. A certain amount of grandstanding is considered normal (I'm looking at you, Fox "News") but Ahmadinejad certainly sounds like he means to wipe Israel off the map.

      Thus a certain amount of angst would be expected. From a perfectly rational standpoint, it would seem that poking sticks at the major military power in the region (Israel / US) isn't a really good idea. Especially since the former has started several preemptive wars in recent history and the latter has actually dropped nuclear weapons on an enemy. But rationality isn't what one typically finds in the Middle East.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    98. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by melted · · Score: 1

      If memory serves, Russia sells S-300 to Iran. Anything Israel can fly, Iran can shoot down. To shut down anything the US can fly, they'd need the "Russian Army" (i.e. non-export) version of S-400 Triumf, which again to the best of my knowledge Russia doesn't sell to anyone, and when they do start selling it, it will be a "reduced" version compared to what they run themselves. So any attack on Iran in the next few years would have to be done by high-end US stealth aircraft, and I don't think Obama is insane enough to enter yet another war in this economic climate.

    99. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by sjames · · Score: 1

      Of course, everyone on this side of the Atlantic who sold them weapons and flipped the cash to the contras got a full pardon.

    100. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So Mahmoud Ahmadinajed (and I don't care if it is spelled wrong) doesn't want to see the destruction of Israel and doesn't deny the holocaust happened?

      Correct, he doesn't.

      (I believe there are even good wikipedia articles on both of those popular myths)

    101. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 2, Informative

      Citation needed

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
    102. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by guruevi · · Score: 1

      A single dictator is easier to control than a democratic nation. The US government is no different than any other ruler in the world and in history - they want to expand their domain. You can do this in 2 ways:
      - You actively annex or conquer the domain
      - You make agreements with the existing rulers and make them your vassal

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    103. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Securityemo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, for murderers. Not for adulterers and homosexuals.

      --
      Emotions! In your brain!
    104. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CAPSLOCK: it's CRUISE CONTROL for COOL

    105. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by L0rdJedi · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of muslims (remember there are about 2 billion world wide) just want to get on with their lives the same as everybody else.

      Yeah, the problem is the other 1% or 20 million worldwide.

    106. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      And there's a big, big difference between Arab and Persian. It's akin to saying, "French, German, all the same. They're next door to each other." Redrawing a map of Eurpoe that combines parts of Germany and France really isn't going to work. I'm not sure that a lot of people in the West understand how different Iraq and Iran are. The mountains that divide Iraq and Iran represent more than political or geographical boundaries - they are a significant cultural boundary as well.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    107. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by BradMajors · · Score: 4, Informative

      Iran has never threatened to wipe any country off the map. This accusation has already been proven false multiple times.

    108. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by L0rdJedi · · Score: 1

      Then the west started fucking with them from all sides (and from within), in order to get at their tasty oil, and since then things have gone to pot.

      And I'm sure this had nothing to do with environmentalists in the US getting laws passed to keep us from drilling on our own soil. It's not like we don't have enough oil on our soil or off our shores to power ourselves. As we've passed more laws, we've imported more oil.

      What? Did people really think the oil companies wouldn't find alternate sources if they couldn't drill on US soil?

    109. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Anyone that can understand Persian should be able to listen to the nutbag and decide for themselves.

      It's not like this guy makes any pretenses.

      He's like a Persian George Bush.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    110. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An embassy which was run basically as a CIA safe house plotting to sabotage the Iranian government.

      Are there any US embassies which are not run as CIA safe houses? (Not that it's limited to the USA, either, mind you: are there any embassies at all which are not run as safe houses for whatever spy agencies the country in question operates?)

    111. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Hamas and Hezbollah are nothing like Robin Hood.

      They are also nothing like any of the partisan groups in WWII.

      Any proper partisan would probably be embarassed to be conflated with the likes of Hamas.

      It's pure doublespeak to suggest that Hamas is anything like real "freedom fighters".

      Unfortunately, useful terms get abused until they no longer have any meaning.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    112. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Smauler · · Score: 1

      The US had been helping kill Japanese (Flying Tigers ring a bell? Great unit, but it bears reminding that they were mercs!) in substantial numbers well before December 7th.

      From Wikipedia :
      The group first saw combat on 20 December 1941, 12 days after Pearl Harbor

    113. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to get with the program. The accepted response here is, "USIsrael just hates Muslims". Anything else is karma suicide.

    114. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by stenWolf · · Score: 1

      Belief does not facts make... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel The destruction of the regime, rather than the country, is the contested argument. Please refrain from arguing without getting your facts streight

    115. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by sjames · · Score: 1

      Considering that the U.S. overthrew their legitimate government and installed a dictator, it was only natural that when asserting their natural right to choose their own leader they would attack their illegitimate ruler's base of power.

    116. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Vahokif · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm from Hungary. We spoke Russian for 50 years anyway. Thanks America.

    117. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      mr. a-members-only-jacket doesn't wield much power. the security apparatus, the army, the someday-nukes, they're all in the hands of the supreme council and the ayatollah. who is a pretty shrewd guy.

      iran may have a president who's crazier than a shithouse rat, but you have to look deeper to see what the country as a whole will do.

    118. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Rising+Ape · · Score: 1

      The kinda irony with this nuclear power plant is that uranium fission for electricity was commercialised partly due to a side effect: the production of plutonium. I think I am right in saying that there is more thorium in the Earth's crust than uranium, thorium is more easily available, it is fissionable, and doesn't produce the same pollutants (or explosives, if you want to look at it like that) that the fission of uranium does.

      Thorium isn't fissile, so you need either uranium or plutonium in there as well. During the reaction, thorium gets converted to enough fissile uranium to replace the fissile material consumed, so it's a breeder. But we've abandoned breeders in general, not just thorium based ones.

      The real reason enriched uranium is used is that it's cheaper and easier than setting up a breeding cycle, and the reason the PWR became dominant was that the technology was already well developed for submarine propulsion. Nothing to do with Pu production.

    119. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two questions:

      1. How does that not also apply, equally, to the GP post?
      2. How are you, and the parent poster, not stupid fucks for appealing to wikipedia in an argument?

    120. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      Racism hasn't died out, either. If you think the root cause is the actions of the government, rather than finding a reason to justify a deep-seated hatred, you'd be sorely mistaken

      You think it's not possible to despise the government of Israel for reasons other than anti-semitism? Wow. Sucks to be a Jewish person who dislikes the Israeli government. Seriously, the lowest trick the Israeli government and its supporters pull is to try to present it and being Jewish as synonymous. Saying race must align with a particular view, now that is racist.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    121. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Kurds were just in the way. Yes that's cheesy but just had to milk that.

    122. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by dave420 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wow. No, they have never said they'd get weapons, let alone use them. Also, an Ayatollah decreed a Fatwa against ever using nuclear weapons. So no, the scariest thing is how you can be so fucking dense when it comes to current affairs. These are not secrets. This is established fact. God you're dumb.

    123. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      Iran is not the crazy state that you hear about in the media.

      Really?

      Yes, really. But mostly because you don't know how to read:

      I am honestly hoping
      A) Iran is not as stupid as I hear in the media

      But I'm sure you have a great explanation as to why the parent isn't allowed to hope, Iran isn't as crazy as they seem?

      Seriously, is it really that difficult to READ? Or are we supposed to just take things completely out of context?

      Mahmoud Ahmadinajed (and I don't care if it is spelled wrong) doesn't want to see the destruction of Israel and doesn't deny the holocaust happened

      See how easy it is to take things out of context and make it seem like you're an idiot?

    124. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I'm sure the GP is crushed, hearing that from a junior-college dropout who works at gamestop.

    125. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Monkeyman334 · · Score: 1

      How about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Iranian_seizure_of_Royal_Navy_personnel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_detention_of_American_hikers_by_Iran Everybody brings up the coup and subsequent installation of the Shah for the reason they hate us. In reality, the prior leader was anti-western and nationalized Iran's oil. They then realized that their oil industry depending on foreign investment and expertise and their nationalization led to an economic collapse. Mosaddegh was very unpopular and used dictatorship style tactics to try and stay in power. This created a ripe environment for a coup, which the CIA helped fund and internally the agents and agency claimed credit for doing their job. Externally, both the US and the Iranians deny the amount of influence the CIA had in overthrowing Mosaddegh.

    126. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by sitarlo · · Score: 1

      They are also a "big kid" who beats up and oppresses women.

    127. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no they don't. Ahmedinajad was quoting. something like "...and the imam said the zionist regime will vanish from the page of history". insinuating that Israel will, in time, be an irrelevance or cease to exist per se.

      most bad stuff you hear about iran is propaganda from the REAL nutjobs - the U.S. If you currently beleive that Ahmedinajad said what you claimed him to say, you are a victim of the U.S. propaganda machine, which seeks to demonize Iran, so that when the tanks finally come rolling in, you won't care, because they're untermenschen.

    128. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Sunni sect is more moderate than the Shia and thus easier for the British to deal with.

      If you don't know a thing about Islam, at least don't write the exact opposite of something so well known. It makes you Americans look so stupid and ignorant, "with your brains up your asses", as you guys say.

    129. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by BangaIorean · · Score: 1

      Here, I must disagree with you when you say "dead is just dead". I can write a poignant account of how a stoning actually takes place, but you can google around yourself. And well, that particular quote might have been translated wrongly, but you can't deny that he has made several other outrageous statements - he has a history of making insane statements. What about his comments that "South Koreans must be slapped till they become human" and "Australians are a bunch of cow herders" and "England has nothing. Its inhabitants are not human"

      You can't attribute all of them to bad translation, can you? I stand my my statement that this guy is a nutjob (note: I speak of Ahmedinejad, and not the entire Iranian populace).

    130. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      They are also a "big kid" who beats up and oppresses women.

      And the USA blows up families. I was asked why the US had a problem with Iran and answered. It has bugger all to do with how nice or not Iran is. If that were a problem for the US government, they wouldn't be propping up or tolerating worse regimes than Iran's. I try to avoid being forced into the camp of supporting one bully or another. Sometimes your enemy's enemy isn't very nice either.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    131. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, the flying Tigers flew their first combat mission 12 days AFTER Pearl Harbor.

    132. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Samy+Merchi · · Score: 2, Informative

      Err, citation needed. As far as I'm aware, Ahmadinejad has very consistently claimed that they are only pursuing civilian nuclear energy, not military nuclear bombs to attack other countries.

      If you've got some proof that Iran is saying it's planning to attack other countries with nuclear bombs, I'd sure like to hear it. Otherwise, I call your bullshit.

    133. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > the West redrew the map of the Middle East without much attention being paid to ethnic or religious divides.

      That seems to be a strange objection in the context of the middle east. For most of the last few thousand years, that area hasn't been ruled along primarily ethnic or religious boundaries; it's simply been based on whoever could conquer and hold it. That's why the "map" was available to "redraw" in the first place; it had gone from empire to empire a few times already.

      I'm not saying it *should* be that what, merely that it was the status quo at the time. Reassembling the area into ethnic-specific nations today would be difficult and historically unusual. (And, given the local histories of conquer and/or convert, plus the uneven distribution of natural resources, may lead more towards a stronger us-vs-them mentality...) (or, notably, the definitions of 'ethnicity' and 'religion' can be sliced rather thin and lead to extreme fragmentation, particularly where groups live in mixed-ethnicity regions or where centers of an ethnicity aren't in a contiguous land area. The most bitter conflict in the middle east today is, after all, one of mass relocation - Israel/Palestine).

    134. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Samy+Merchi · · Score: 1

      Doesn't the Israeli military play that exact role?

    135. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Samy+Merchi · · Score: 1

      Can you elaborate on that supposed difference between WWII partisan groups and the Palestinian partisan groups? I'd love to hear what that important distinction separating the two is.

    136. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by ClioCJS · · Score: 1

      i stopped reading your comment after "1". He asked "What has Iran done to us", and you said "Jailed and tortured its own population". Uh, Iran isn't "us". So you failed to answer his question at all. 1 is not something Iran did to us. I stopped reading after that.

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
    137. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by carp3_noct3m · · Score: 1

      Yep, and yet people continue to believe old news lies.(they they have admittedly, but understandably, been a bit sketchy with inspections though)

      --
      "It's ok, I'm completely secure as long as my iron is off"
    138. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > US intervention by petroleum and scrap iron embargo ... forced the Japs to choose between fight or caving in.

      It was *after* the Japanese Empire was invading China (took Beijing by 1937) and the USSR (1938) that the US decided it wasn't entirely moral to sell raw material to their military (1940... three years later). Calling that a reason to attack the US is an extremely weak argument. Obviously they wouldn't be getting additional oil and iron from the US by attacking the US; Japan didn't have the means to come take those supplies, and the US sure as hell wasn't going to sell them to a nation actively at war with them.

    139. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      In a way, the red scare of that time parallels the terrorist fear of today.

      Exactly. Heh, funny it's almost the 11th of se....

      And about that other one, you might want to ask ... well just about any central-asian country.

    140. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Samy+Merchi · · Score: 1

      So it's our role to be the world police? "This country isn't behaving like we want them to behave, so let's slap them around until they act according to Western morals and ethics. Let's beat them into thinking right."

      If we force a culture to change, it will just be forced change, and it will revert as soon as we step out. Do we want to have to have a military presence in dozens of countries around the world, watching over them with an angry eye making sure they don't do anything different from us? And where would it stop? Where to draw the line? What kind of offenses are enough to warrant intervention? If we feel entitled to interfere in Iran because their method of execution is stoning, then do we have the right to invade Netherlands because they allow pot smoking? Different countries do have different laws and morals than our own countries, and if we step on the road of trying to "correct" every country out there to think exactly like us, it'll be a road leading to a World War. Do several European countries have the right to invade Texas because Texas has a barbaric death penalty? To "correct" Texas to be "right-thinking"? Does Sweden, with its different privacy laws, have the right to invade the United States to fix the US so that privacy is better protected? Each society has to evolve on its own, at its own pace, and in its own direction.

    141. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They keep threatening to wipe an entire country off the map. And that country happens to be an American ally.

      In addition to being an ally, they're also the most dangerous enemy America has ever had.

    142. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AFAIK the motivation for suicide terrorists is the promise of going to a paradise with a bunch of virgins.

      Oh my God. You're such a fucking tool. Maybe just stop think about the plausibility of these ideas for just one minute.

    143. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You use phrase "wipe off the map", and yet I can't find any accurate report that attributes that phrase to anyone in Iran. All I can find is reporting from some 3rd rate hacks who don't speak Farsi, and wouldn't know how to translate "vanish from the page of time", or recognise when a person was quoting an historical figure.

      Mistranslation

    144. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      yea sure let inspectors in, that worked out so great for iraq. regardless of whether or not they let the inspectors in the war hawks will say they interfered or hid stuff from the inspectors to justify an attack, so they may as well keep them out and not give away valuable intelligence to a potential attacker.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    145. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Iran is not the crazy state that you hear about in the media.

      Really? So Mahmoud Ahmadinajed (and I don't care if it is spelled wrong) doesn't want to see the destruction of Israel and doesn't deny the holocaust happened? I think Iran is the crazy state we hear about.

      Maybe, just maybe, if this wasn't about weapons, they'd let inspectors from the IAEA check the facilities out and they'd disclose all of the facilities. You are aware that one of their nuclear plants was only "disclosed" after it was accidentally found, right?

      You're right. They not only refuse to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, but also refuse to even disclose whether or not they possess nuclear weapons. In fact, they even attempted to sell these 'ambiguous' nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa. All this after they wiped a country off the map, denying it existed?!

      Wait, were we talking about Iran? I got side-tracked...

    146. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by freaq · · Score: 1

      I feel the need to state this explicitly, rather than mod down your comment down:

      They keep threatening to wipe an entire country off the map.

      LIE

      One deliberately mistranslated quote does not constitute repeated threats.

      --
      united states nuclear device terrorist bioweapon encryption cocaine korea syria iran iraq columbia cuba
    147. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahmadinejad certainly polemic. He keeps humiliating himself, the guy's a joke.

      But what is important to know:
      - He isn't a dictator. Dictators have power, he's a puppet.
      - He doesn't even come close to a religious fundamentalist like western warmongers love to make out

      So, even assuming that some of these very selective citations in some way represent his opinions (rather than being stupid remarks from an extremely unqualified engineer-turned puppet-president) any reasonable person should see that this is the wrong person to be paying attention to.

      But the sad fact is that certain media organizations are absolutely desperate to portray him as genocidal dictator and keep outdoing themselves in pushing this image and extending it to an entire country without actually losing any words on the political reality.
      And it's got to be really bad. Not only are blatant falsehood like "They keep threatening to wipe an entire country off the map" extremely popular, but when someone calls them out people get defensive for these lies by referring to unrelated controversies that can be in any way tied to them.

      A majority of people believed Saddam Hussein to be responsible for the 9/11 attacks. This is a million times worse.

    148. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The ultimate promise of all Divine religions," says Ahmadinejad, "will be fulfilled with the emergence of a perfect human being [the 12th Imam], who is heir to all prophets. He will lead the world to justice and absolute peace. Oh mighty Lord, I pray to you to hasten the emergence of your last repository, the promised one." i.e. Armageddon

      He called for "Israel to be wiped off the map"

      Holocaust at all, says Ahmadinejad. Nothing but "myth," a "legend" that was "fabricated . . . under the name 'Massacre of the Jews.' "

      These are things he has publicly announced.

      The guy is a whack job... and some want him to have control of "peaceful" nuclear resources.

    149. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by stdarg · · Score: 1

      And is the terrorist threat of today imaginary or real? Is it worth doing things to confront terrorism? I can totally understand the presumed need to meddle in other countries to combat something very serious and very scary.

    150. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? So Mahmoud Ahmadinajed (and I don't care if it is spelled wrong)

      Ask Obama Bin Laden about the importance of correct name-spelling ;)

      If this wasn't about weapons, they'd let inspectors from the IAEA check the facilities out

      The IAEA created by Eisenhower? I'm sure they'd be really neutral.

    151. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Your sarcasm is hilarious, but not in the way you intended. More like when some moonshot doubter mocks people - "Hahaha, like we _really_ landed on the moon! Riiiiiight.".

      Usually when one applies game theory one should try to at least apply _some_ sort of motivation to the actors. Iran has no motive to withhold oil, especially as it's their lifeblood, unless they go full retard because someone attacks them.

    152. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Not all the fault can be attributed to the colonial powers. Why didn't the people redraw their own maps when the colonizers left? Because they wanted to keep all the power they could.

    153. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      They keep threatening to wipe an entire country off the map.

      Citation needed.

    154. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      I'm unclear as to what you think precipitated anti-semitism in the middle east. I mean, you don't seriously think it's the same as the European flavor, do you?

    155. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      What's funny is this claim (that Iran somehow made genocidal threats against Israel) has been disproved many times yet it still comes up in _any_ discussion of why Iran is pure evil.

    156. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Why does it have to be a war? Why not just harass them with bombing raids until they agree to terms?

    157. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Yeah I've heard the alternate translation. Sounds like extreme optimism and wishful thinking. If I say, we are going to Iran, raping their women, and burning down every mosque... and then the next day my colleague says "that's an allegory for causing problems for the *regime* of Iran..." how much credibility does that have?

    158. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by stenWolf · · Score: 1

      invasion vs. non invasion?

    159. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      I'm unclear as to what you think precipitated anti-semitism in the middle east. I mean, you don't seriously think it's the same as the European flavor, do you?

      The Middle Easterners hate Israel because of a country that was forcibly shoved into the middle of their land; particularly, one of their holiest sites. I was specifically referring to the Americans and Europeans (mentioned by GP), who largely harbor xenophobic attitudes and find logical justification for them after the fact.

    160. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1, Troll

      I will get moded down for this, but I don't care.

      You are absolutely right. Sadly, Iran is not crazy at all, and it won't happened.

      But if they did go batshit insane and drop a few nukes on Israel, I would be a very happy guy.

      Anyway, getting back to this thread:

      The only country in the world that has ever used a nuclear weapon (outside of nuclear tests/practices) is the united states. And it's the world's biggest holder of nuclear power. Why is it a problem that Iran gets a nuclear weapon, when we know the US has thousands, and they are not being audited at all?

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    161. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      And there is a somewhat ancient treaty that binds them anyway.

      Iran signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. This treaty says, in return for not making nukes, and having their nuclear facilities inspected, they can buy nuclear stuff, and in fact, the nuclear powers must sell them nuclear plants, and even nuclear weapons for non-military use (like blowing up mountains and, apparently, capping oil wells.)

      In other worlds, right now, legally, the US has to sell Iran uranium.

      If Iran is in violation of the NPT, which is possible, that means...um...they can't buy nuclear material from the nuclear powers that signed the NPT. That's it. That's the sole 'punishment'.

      There is not fucking ability to invade, there is no damn right to overthrow their government, if they don't want to operate within the treaty. The NPT is to stop countries from having to develop nuclear tech but still have nuclear power, by encouraging them to not do the research themselves in exchange for guaranteed access to civilian nuclear tech. That's it, that's the sole purpose for non-nuclear signatories. If Iran is not following the rules, everyone is free to think of them as possessing nuclear weapons, and not sell them other nuclear tech...and, um, so?

      Think what you want about Iran, but they are perfectly entitled to make nuclear weapons, and if you want to argue they're in violation of the NPT, well, go ahead and assert the US shouldn't sell nuclear materials to them...oh, wait, the US isn't? Well, shut the fuck up, then, because that's the only thing the US can or can't do WRT to that treaty.

      And while we're talking about treaties, it is a violation of the UN charter, and a war crime, to threaten invading other countries. Yes, just the mere act of threatening an offensive war. You know, like certain politicians in the US are doing to Iran.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    162. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by ultranova · · Score: 1

      (especially crazy things like wanting WWIII to reveal the last imam)

      As opposed to wanting WWIII to start the Rapture?

      There are crazy people everywhere, and they tend to be louder than the normal, sane ones. Maybe the people running the show in Iran are crazy, maybe they're sane but talking crazy to win the crazy crowd, or maybe they're neither and you've been listening to propaganda.

      Every country has its lunatics and the US has the Rapture crowd, who post "Halleluja" in response to every bad thing that happens because in their mind it brings the end of the world closer, and that's a good thing. Don't judge other countries based on their lunatic fringe, especially when you only know them through your own country's propaganda machine.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    163. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I think a major problem with these arguments is that people confuse what the intention of Iran and many Arab states is. Iran and most of the Arab world want to see the dismantlement of the nation of Israel. The term "destruction" is used by the U.S. media to evoke images of nuclear holocaust and make the American public feel justified in blindly supporting their government's policies. I don't believe the intention is to eradicate the land that Israel occupies but rather to remove the nation that the U.S. and its Western allies established. The land that Israel occupies is among the most holiest to muslims across the world and nuking it, would likely not go to well as that would limit the ability for pilgrimages, etc. I think most people familiar with middle eastern politics will agree that Iran and other actors want to see the land returned to the Palestinians. .

      Statements such as destroying Israel, wiping Israel off the map, may sound harsh, but most westerners are too ignorant to realize Israel is not a land but a state, i.e. governmental entity. The idea of removing Israel, so that native Muslims, i.e. Palestinians can occupy the land doesn't seem to far fetched. Its curious why U.S. and western media outlets seldom cite the Iranian president when he makes those statements. I believe one of the most interesting was when he questioned why Israel was built in the Middle east on Arab land. He questioned why they were punished for what the Germans did. He asked why if the Americans or British established Israel because of their concern for the Jews following the Holocaust did they not build the nation on their land.

      I think if we are going to really have an intelligent discussion on what is going on we need to stop with all the nonsense. I'm not saying the Iranian president is a good person, leader, etc. However, we know middle eastern resources, fuel the U.S. economy and we should be told of the real reasons of these wars, etc. is economics and hegemony. I don't think its that ridiculous to consider that the American public, if properly educated and informed about the real reasons these decisions are made, may actually support the government's response.

      The problem is the little crooked things in between politicians are doing for themselves and their friends that require us to be kept in the dark. Well, that and the realization that this form of exploitation is not sustainable.

    164. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe, just maybe, if this wasn't about weapons, they'd let inspectors from the IAEA check the facilities out and they'd disclose all of the facilities. You are aware that one of their nuclear plants was only "disclosed" after it was accidentally found, right?

      Maybe you should try checking some facts. The facility at Bushehr is subject to inspections and regulation by the IAEA.

      Moreover, it's not even being going to be fuelled by locally enriched uranium -- they're getting the fuel from Russia. So where's the problem, again?

      If they ever get around to building their locally engineered and managed reactor at Arak, then it'll be time to start raising eyebrows. At the moment you're just fear-mongering and/or spreading propaganda.

    165. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Samy+Merchi · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I understand. Didn't the Israeli invade Palestinian lands pretty much exactly the way the Germans invaded French lands?

      So I don't see the difference you suggest.

    166. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by budgenator · · Score: 1

      There is no way I'm ever going to except that the attack on the USS Liberty was anything than a deliberate calculated attack on a specific identified ship; friendly fire is miss-identification, the Israelis knew who and what they were shooting at and why.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    167. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      Oh I agree to an extent and as I said above in response to another comment there probably wasn't a good way to slice up the former territory of the Ottoman Empire, a way that would please everyone or even most people. With all that said it is pretty clear that the colonial powers were not overly concerned with dividing the territory in a way that would best serve the local population. I would suggest they were more concerned with their own interests. The Kurds were completely ignored and little effort was made to take into account severely different religious identities. We incited the Arabs to fight on our side in the Great War then effectively stabbed them in the back at the first opportunity. The British didn't exactly do a stellar job in Palestine either.
      I think most people would agree that the Shi'ites in the south of Iraq and Iranians both have plenty of reasons to be less than enamoured with the West, and particularly the US and Britain.

    168. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. I noticed that the US helped Hungary tremendously in 1956 when the Hungarians asked for help.

    169. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the greens of the world should rejoice, Iran is showing leadership in reducing it's carbon footprint. Have to post anonymously as the green terrorists would destroy my suv is I was ever exposed.

    170. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, apart from the hostages and the 'death to america' chants, they are perfectly hamless. I understand that Iran wants to build these plants for peaceful electrical generation purposes only, and they were only kidding about the death chant stuff. So if they want to open a large facility with the first reactor building at 48 degrees, 29 minutes, 46.83 seconds north by 50 degrees, 53 minutes, 8.21 seconds east, and a second reactor building at 28 degrees, 49 minutes, 39.11 seconds north by 50 degrees, 53 minutes, 16.85 seconds east, who am I to stop them? Just because they are very much in favor of stoning a woman, or just hanging her because they think her husband may have died of mysterious circumstances. Sure its true they already gave her 200 lashes. We can trust them, can't we? Ok, so they killed thousands of protesters after those protesters complained about rigged elections... Surely they wouldn't come up with something like ....death to america, death to america, stone them with the atomic rock... Ok, so maybe we should be concerned...

    171. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      French and German people are pretty much the same. Really the only difference is language.

      IMHO it's high time we picked one global language and quit dividing ourselves into these ridiculous little insular tribes.

    172. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's imaginary. Is it worth depriving nations of soverignty because we imagine ourselves to be under threat? Is our soverignty under threat by terrorists, or by ourselves? Is the concept of a potential suicide attack scarier than a full scale invasion of a country?

      Is the American expansionism threat of today imaginary or real? Is it worth doing things to confront expansionism? I can totally understand the presumed need to meddle in other countries to combat something very serious and very scary.

    173. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Maybe we everyone should just sit down and die. Or you can acknowledge that you just proved the other guys point about how America prevented the suffering of others under Soviet rule.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    174. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, with a history of military violence like that I'm sure you can point me to somewhere in their history when they started a war of agression against another soverign nation.

    175. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by SirRedTooth · · Score: 1

      And for some strange reason that makes me a troll?

    176. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by chrb · · Score: 1

      What about his comments that "South Koreans must be slapped till they become human" and "Australians are a bunch of cow herders" and "England has nothing. Its inhabitants are not human"

      Ahmadinejad didn't say those things, they are quotes attributed to Mohammad-Reza Rahimi.

      The first quote is actually wrong (it was "The Koreans also need to be slapped" - with the context of a "slap" being economic tariffs in response to sanctions). The other quotes are accurate though.

      I stand my my statement that this guy is a nutjob (note: I speak of Ahmedinejad

      Maybe he is. But making up bad translations and falsely attributing quotes to him does not make the case.

    177. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Really? So Mahmoud Ahmadinajed (and I don't care if it is spelled wrong)

      Ask Obama Bin Laden about the importance of correct name-spelling ;)

      In both cases the problem is that it is impossible to spell them "right" in the latin alphabet. You have to write MA's name in Farsi and OBL's name in Arabic.

      The latinisations of their names are transliterations, and there are often multiple transliterations that make sense.

      This is one of the huge problems with so called "terrorist watch lists".

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    178. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Flamebait? What do you call the attacks on civilians, and the meaningless security charade they have to go through to even visit the next town over? The raids on innocent families? The seizure of homes for no reason other than intimidation? I guess that's OK if Israel does it.

    179. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you link me a well-sourced debunking of this claim? I'm not saying I don't believe you, as a matter of fact I'm just asking so that I can have something to send people who make the same assertion.

    180. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Israel IS the terrorist group, you fucking asshat. They employ the tactics of terrorism on a daily basis throughout the land under their control. Jesus Tit-fucking Christ. How can you be so dumb and not stop breathing??

      I imagine thats the reason for your flamebait mod. Take a deep breath or two then come back and present your arguments like an adult, not an angsty 14 year old playing counterstrike

    181. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      It is fire that is coming from friendlies, not fire that is, in itself, friendly.

      It probably makes more sense to shout "friendly fire!" that "Misdirected allied fire upon members of the same - oh too late, he's dead."

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    182. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Jews lived on that land before Islam existed. There is no way to reasonably claim that the land is holier to Muslims than it is to Jews. To Jews, there is NO holier place in the entire Universe, never mind on Earth. The Muslims invented their holy places in Israel when some emperor or another wanted more influence in the region. This is documented fact.

      There has never been a sovereign Arabic/Islamic nation state in the area currently occupied by Israel. Semites of all kinds (are there more than Arabs and Jews?) have lived in the area for millenia. It is ridiculous to claim that "Palestinians" have a better claim to a state in that geographic location than Jews. It's also documented historical fact that Jews DID have a sovereign nation state in the area in their history.

      All the posturing today is based on Antisemitism and a generation of losers in a war that occurred over 60 years ago that won't accept defeat. It has nothing to do with actual religion, nor with historical claims. Modern nations across the globe stole land and killed natives in the millions to get that land. Israel may be no different, but it should not be vilified any more so than the US, France, Spain, Britain, Russia, China, India, Persia (oops, Iran), etc. are.

    183. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      According to Noam Chomsky

      And according to Noam Chomsky, a French Holocaust-denier was "a relatively apolitical liberal of some sort". Chomsky is a nutbag who will befriend anyone who opposes the United States or American business, and make them up a nice-sounding history to keep them having to take any blame for their own actions to boot.

    184. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Didn't the Israeli invade Palestinian lands pretty much exactly the way the Germans invaded French lands?

      No, they didn't. The Israelis took land in defensive wars fought against Arab armies. You cannot simply invent a "Palestinians" who sat through three different wars over a period of thirty years naked, innocent, and doing nothing -- particularly not when the PLO formed itself in 1964 with the goal of "liberating" Jaffa, Tel-Aviv, Netanyah, and Haifa!

    185. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Jews invaded British lands, who had in turn invaded Turkish lands. There was never a state of Palestine, other than the state of Israel which the Romans renamed after they conquered a sovereign nation.

    186. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      And if you think it's not antisemitic to propose that the Jewish state be abolished and its citizens put to death for their Jewishness, you've got bigger problems than just apologizing for racists with cheap, worn-out rhetorical sleights of hand.

    187. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Israelis are Middle-Easterners. Arab and Middle-Easterner are two different things, as Jews, Kurds, and Persians are excellent proof of.

    188. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Given that the Muslim "holy" sites in Israel were invented for purely political reasons AND placed on the Jews' most holy site, my sympathy is utterly non-existent. Islam is a horrible religion, based on the equally horrible Christianity of its time. Unlike Christianity, however, it's gotten worse, not better.

    189. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Apparently you also started at 1. In other words, you're an illiterate piece of shit. Please die.

    190. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      You know less about Judaism than you know about Islam.

    191. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Samy+Merchi · · Score: 1

      Didn't the Israeli invade Palestinian lands pretty much exactly the way the Germans invaded French lands?

      No, they didn't. The Israelis took land in defensive wars fought against Arab armies.

      That doesn't seem correct to me. As per Wikipedia, "On June 1, Israel formed a National Unity Government by widening its cabinet, and on June 4 the decision was made to go to war. The next morning, Israel launched Operation Focus, a large-scale surprise air strike that was the opening of the Six-Day War."

      So it seems the Israelis took land in an offensive war and I thus repeat my question, didn't the Israeli invade Palestinian lands pretty much exactly the same way the Germans invaded France? In both cases it was an offensive war in order to grab land that didn't belong to them. Gaza, Sinai, Golan, West Bank and all that -- they were never mandated to Israel in the founding of that nation -- they were territories they violently seized by initiating a war.

      Seems a lot like the beginning of WWII to me.

    192. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      He asked why if the Americans or British established Israel because of their concern for the Jews following the Holocaust did they not build the nation on their land.

      Was he not aware of which land the Jewish people originally came from?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    193. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I stopped reading at "According to Noam Chomsky"

      I stopped reading at "I stopped reading at "According to Noam Chomsky"" because there was nothing else in the comment.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    194. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Moreover, they're ruled by nutjobs and mad mullahs who keep saying things like "South Koreans should be slapped till they become human", "Australians are a bunch of cow herders"

      That just makes them sound like the French guards in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, rather than a serious threat to world peace.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    195. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stop CAPITALIZING random WORDS before I FEED you to a CROCODILE.

    196. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      If I say, we are going to Iran, raping their women, and burning down every mosque... and then the next day my colleague says "that's an allegory for causing problems for the *regime* of Iran..." how much credibility does that have?

      No credibility at all. Now find me a citation where Ahmadinejad said: "we're going to go to Israel to rape their women and burn down every synagogue". Otherwise how much credibility does your made up analogy have?

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    197. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plant by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      And if you think it's not antisemitic to propose that the Jewish state be abolished and its citizens put to death for their Jewishness, you've got bigger problems than just apologizing for racists with cheap, worn-out rhetorical sleights of hand.

      "Rhetorical sleight of hand"? Is that what you use to dismiss a valid argument these days? Did anyone here propose that the Israeli people be put to death or are you making up other people's arguments for them so that you can more easily put them down? Note that one of us actually continues to draw a distinction between being Jewish and being a supporter of Israel whilst the other (you) keep trying to turn any criticism of Israel into an example of anti-jewish prejudice. That's the sleight of hand that is "cheap and worn out". The Israeli government and it's supporters do not get to talk on behalf of anyone other than themselves. I despise and have always despised people who pull the old "you're one of us or you're a traitor" routine on the basis of race, nationality or religion.

      I also think it is obnoxious for a nation to call itself the nation of a particular religion or ethnicity, to determine admittance and citizenship on the basis of whether someone is of the right ethnicity or accepts a particular religion, is extremely bigotted. I repeat, being Jewish does not mean one condones the actions of the Israeli government and by the same principle, criticism of the Israeli government does not mean one has feelings one way or another about Jewish people generally. Repeated attempts by pro-Israeli types such as yourself here, to make Israeli and Jewish synonymous, are dangerous in that they are a major contributor to anti-semitism in the modern world.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  2. Yeah right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    It's not a nuclear plant. It's just a bunch of camels running on treadmills.

    1. Re:Yeah right by omidaladini · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not a nuclear plant. It's just a bunch of camels running on treadmills.

      But there aren't that many camels in Iran, despite the cliché that people have in mind.

    2. Re:Yeah right by mutube · · Score: 2, Funny

      But there aren't that many camels in Iran, despite the cliché that people have in mind.

      Well, duh... That's because they're all in the power plant.

    3. Re:Yeah right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I haven't been to that part of the world, but I desperately want to. When Westerners think of Iran, they think of Arabs and vast streching deserts. In fact it's vast mountains, scattered deserts (unpopulated IIRC?), forests, snow, and plains. It's like a more extreme California in my mind, which is my version of paradise; a ski trip in Iran would be total bliss.

    4. Re:Yeah right by krapski · · Score: 1

      doesn't matter, the Iranians will eventually bomb the shit out of US soldiers over there in the middle east

    5. Re:Yeah right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      jundallah will attack it

  3. They know the script... by arcite · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Get nuclear weapons and the USA will not only leave you alone, they will give you AID money by the billions, initiate free trade deals, and otherwise try to be your best friend.

    M.A.D. for a safer world! Today!

    1. Re:They know the script... by kestasjk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The US have said they don't see this nuclear plant as a proliferation risk. We should be for this thing, because if they can get nuclear power and it doesn't help them get nuclear weapons that removes any reason for Ahmedinejad to enrich

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    2. Re:They know the script... by Teancum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hillary Clinton and the Obama administration doesn't see this nuclear plant as a proliferation risk. I would dare say that there are many in America that do see this as a huge potential problem that is only going to cause problems in the future, and there were plenty of people in the "previous administration" that expressed deep concern about this power plant.

      The problem here is that we won't know if this is a problem until after Iran detonates one of their bombs, most likely on Tel Aviv or New York City. At that point it will be too late to do anything about it.

    3. Re:They know the script... by Bobakitoo · · Score: 1, Troll

      Lol. Many countrys have nuclear bombs and only one was retarded enough to use it... twice. I dont think the world has any lesson to take, in that subject, from that particular county.

    4. Re:They know the script... by Teancum · · Score: 1, Informative

      Correction.... only one country was intelligent enough to use it in a strategic manner that aided their cause and ultimately ensured world peace. And the willingness to use that weapon if provoked should be apparent too.

      What make me upset is that "mutual assured destruction" is no longer a part of U.S. foreign policy, where the current president will simply say "opps, I hope you really didn't mean that" if some American city is left as a smoldering ruin. The pure knowledge that any nuclear attack against America would result in the complete nuclear destruction of that country which made the attack was at least in the past sufficient to stop idiots from going too far and surprisingly even offered a bit of a respite for the rest of the world in terms of active warfare. That is no longer the case and in fact the world is going to be far worse off as a result.

      Time will tell, and I suppose that is the ultimate test of these political theories. I just hate to be proven correct in this instance.

    5. Re:They know the script... by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      The problem here is that we won't know if this is a problem until after Iran detonates one of their bombs, most likely on Tel Aviv or New York City. At that point it will be too late to do anything about it.

      It'd take a short essay to briefly run through all the reasons why this is absurd, and this knee-jerk uninformed reaction hugely undermines efforts to block Iran's truly concerning moves towards nuclear weapons.

      If people treat power plants like enrichment facilities or breeder reactors it makes it so much easier for the Iranian leadership to hide behind the screen of a legitimate pursuit for nuclear energy.

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    6. Re:They know the script... by Teancum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hope that you are correct and that I am wrong. It isn't just me that has said this, and there are examples such as India and Pakistan who did precisely think kind of back-door nuclear bomb development, as did North Korea. As to if North Korea can sustain a nuclear weapon program may be in question (that is a very expensive proposition for a number of reasons), but I do think Iran has at least the fiscal capability of doing something of that nature.

      If it wasn't for historical examples to prove otherwise, I would be much more inclined to accept your proposition and simply ignore Iran altogether. Still, with a country as wealthy with petroleum as Iran, why are they building a nuclear power plant again? Don't tell me it is their concern for the environment.

    7. Re:They know the script... by mahadiga · · Score: 1

      "If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." --Oscar Wilde

      --
      I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
    8. Re:They know the script... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The pure knowledge that any nuclear attack against America would result in the complete nuclear destruction of that country which made the attack was at least in the past sufficient to stop idiots from going too far and surprisingly even offered a bit of a respite for the rest of the world in terms of active warfare

      If you think that the period since 1945 has seen no active warfare, you must have an odd idea about what a war is. There hasn't been a full scale WWIII or any further nuclear weapons used in anger, but that's about all you can say.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  4. Nope by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Informative

    There are not international concerns over this plant. It requires uranium enriched by 3% (well below the 90% required for weapons grade material) and is operated by the Russians, who are both providing and disposing of the fuel. There are no proliferation concerns over this.

    The concerns are over the other reactor, officially designated for medical research, which requires uranium enriched to 20%, which some see as the first step towards a breeder reactor for providing fuel for nuclear weapons.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    1. Re:Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus isn't this "state of the art" plant something the Russians started building for them almost 40 years ago?

      So its a big ass junk heap, hopefully its not the same design as Chernobyl.

    2. Re:Nope by Kjella · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's a plant in Iran also operated by many Iranians. How about for example siphoning off a little material and blame it on reactor inefficiency? 3% enriched uranium isn't exactly a commodity good, if they get a weapons program going they could secretly have a lot more nukes than anyone expects. So risk-free is probably exaggerating.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:Nope by tokul · · Score: 5, Informative

      Plus isn't this "state of the art" plant something the Russians started building for them almost 40 years ago?
      So its a big ass junk heap, hopefully its not the same design as Chernobyl.

      Germans started it. Some country a little bit closer to US than Russia.

      Bushehr should have three VVER-1000/446 type reactors. Pressurized water reactor. Negative void coefficient
      Chernobyl had four RBMK-1000. Same power, but graphite-moderated reactor. Positive void coefficient

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Void_coefficient

      Although considering that reactor was built by three different contractors for over 45 years, it is still German/Iranian/Russian junk heap.

    4. Re:Nope by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

      "Reactor inefficiencies" for missing fuel would be kind of a laughable excuse. Every measurement and process has to be monitored in minute detail simply for safety - if the plant is operated by Russians, then it would be impossible to interfere with its operation that heavily without someone noticing oddities.

    5. Re:Nope by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I have a suggestion to the US of A: do not start another war in the Middle East.

      AFAIC Iran has every right to possess nuclear weapons, it is a much better deterrent against an invasion than harsh language that Saddam used. If US attacks Iran, it deserves its troops to be nuked, of-course Iran would also be turned into ashes, with ICBMs by US, but maybe Iran having nukes would actually PREVENT a new war by US, not invite it.

      Anybody with any resources today that US is interested in, that does not have nuclear capability is a sitting target for the US.

    6. Re:Nope by Cyberax · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not likely.

      To siphon off some uranium you'll need to disassemble 'hot' fuel rods, chemically separate uranium, and then reassemble rods again. It's unlikely Russians won't notice that a lot of their rods are missing. It's far easier for Iran to use existing uranium enrichment facilities.

      Besides, this reactor is a light-water type. It can never be used to breed plutonium.

    7. Re:Nope by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      3% enriched uranium isn't much help and it's nothing they don't already have. They need to enrich it much more anyway and they have their own uranium mines..

      Keeping a close eye is fine but going over the top doesn't help anyone; it makes demands to stop the genuinely threatening behavior less credible.

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    8. Re:Nope by GiveBenADollar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While the plant does use low enrichment uranium, it produces among other things plutonium. And although not a breeder reactor to my knowledge, it still should produce enough plutonium every fuel cycle to make several bombs. Uranium enrichment to produce nuclear weapons is very difficult, plutonium extraction isn't. So all that is left of your argument is the Russian security over the fuel. If we were making this kind of deal with one of our allies would we be preventing them from obtaining nuclear weapons or would we covertly be helping them?

      I do find this news worrisome but they still have a ways to go before they actually have nuclear weapons and every step of the way can be thwarted either by covert action or by their own mistakes. Radiated fuel is not fun stuff to play with, and that alone will hopefully be enough of a deterrent.

    9. Re:Nope by blind+biker · · Score: 2, Informative

      Nobody is concerned about the FUEL for these reactors. Everyone and their dog (well, only the Saudis, generally all the Sunni states, the Europeans, Israel and the USA) worry about the possibility to produce Plutonium 239 from the spent fuel.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    10. Re:Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Iran *had* a right to develop nuclear weapons, which they voluntarily surrendered when they signed the non-proliferation treaty. In return for this they got a promise that *we* would help develop civilian nuclear power.

    11. Re:Nope by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      "reactor inefficiency" was done by South Africa when they told the world about their nuclear bomb building. They could not account for some material, but over time, it was accepted the books where in order.
      Iran has an old Russian plant, with Russians on site. If you want to have a dual use reactor the only people you want on site is your own or allies with tech help.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    12. Re:Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's unlikely Russians won't notice that a lot of their rods are missing.

      For a right price, they might. And no, I'm not talking of dollars. Destabilising US dominance over Middle East by letting Iran get nukes is russian's wet dream anyway.

    13. Re:Nope by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      They signed the treaty under pressure, same thing as when someone gets arrested and a "confession" is then beat out of them.

      There are no rules in love and war, and in place of Iran I wouldn't TRUST ANYTHING that is signed by USA and I would still pursue every possible way of getting as many weapons as possible, it's in their best interest to do so if they want to SURVIVE, because US will not stop at Iraq and Afghanistan.

    14. Re:Nope by DaveAtWorkAnnoyingly · · Score: 1

      Not true. Light water reactors can make plutonium and infact, all light water reactors DO make plutonium. They also burn plutonium later on in their operating cycle (usually 18 months to 2 years). The reason you don't get plutonium from light water reactors is because it's all gone by the time you refuel. It's created from neutron capture of U238 but gets burned up and helps produce power. If they take this plant offline within months of being at power, then we need to think a little more about it. However, Russia will be watching and also the IAEA will have cameras watching the fuel route. If you want plutonium, you don't do it with commercial light water reactors.

    15. Re:Nope by michael_cain · · Score: 2, Informative

      Besides, this reactor is a light-water type. It can never be used to breed plutonium.

      Any reactor running on moderately enriched uranium breeds plutonium. In a commercial reactor running on low-enriched uranium, about 40% of the energy produced is from bred plutonium that is "burned" in place. Japan currently has a stockpile of over 43 tons of plutonium, all separated from spent fuel extracted from commercial light-water reactors.

      There are a number of things you could have said instead that would have been correct. Commercial light-water reactors are poorly designed for producing weapons-grade plutonium. The fuel typically stays in the reactor too long, so too much Pu-240 is produced relative to the Pu-239, separation of the plutonium from the fuel rods is difficult (as you note), there's no separate way to do short-term exposure of a U-238 target to the neutron flux, etc. Building weapons from reactor-grade plutonium is more complex than using weapons-grade material, but the problems are recognized and solutions have been worked out.

      But can't be used to breed plutonium? Just wrong.

    16. Re:Nope by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If we were making this kind of deal with one of our allies would we be preventing them from obtaining nuclear weapons or would we covertly be helping them?

      It would depend on the ally. It's hard to imagine what Russia gets out of Iran becoming a nuclear power. If they are worried about eventual threats from the US or China it makes more sense to get involved with someone with massive manufacturing capability, since a nuclear war with a superpower is a gigantic fail for everyone.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    17. Re:Nope by andoman2000 · · Score: 0

      again with this, don't you people listen to what the government of Iran actually says?? If they get nukes they will use them, and then the US will use their's and most likely the russians will join in the fun. This is not the cold war, the cold war was based on the desire of both parties not to start the fight, however this system doesn't work with a crazy country/leader/dictator that wants the last imam to arrive (erupt satan style) from the fire of war.

    18. Re:Nope by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Government of Iran says that it wants to destroy the REGIME that is in Jerusalem.

      It absolutely does not say it wants to drop nuclear bombs on Israel, that's what YOUR USA Regime is telling you to get you to rally up for yet another war in the Middle East.

    19. Re:Nope by andoman2000 · · Score: 0

      Wow, I think Hitler said the very same thing! (maybe geographically different but same general thing)

    20. Re:Nope by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Well, if by Hitler you mean Bush, then he said the exact same thing: "Saddam's regime must be toppled", and by the way, the US started a war with Iraq on false pretenses AND it lied to its own STUPID citizens, who can't put 2 and 2 together and more than half of who believed Iraq to be inolved in 9/11.

      Also you just Godwined yourself.

    21. Re:Nope by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      "Not true. Light water reactors can make plutonium and infact, all light water reactors DO make plutonium."

      It's not usable for weapons, because it will be contaminated with Pu-240 and Pu-242. It's not really possible to separate the fissile Pu-239 from them.

    22. Re:Nope by DaveAtWorkAnnoyingly · · Score: 1

      Sure you can. You can separate them physically and chemically. But, if you wanted plutonium, you wouldn't use a commercial PWR to do it, but it is very possible.

    23. Re:Nope by Jaime2 · · Score: 1

      It all depends on how long the fuel rods are in the reactor. If it's a high-pressure design, then the reactor has to be shut down to remove the rods -- it would be easy to tell via satellite if they were pulling rods early to make bombs. If it's a low pressure design, then they could sneak fuel out. Any one know if this reactor allows rods to be swapped without shutting it down?

    24. Re:Nope by Chuck_McDevitt · · Score: 1

      Pressurized light-water reactors like this are not useful for plutonium production. You need to shut down the reactor to add or remove fuel. For plutonium production, you need to introduce U-238 for a specific amount of time to maximize Pu-239 without getting much Pu-240. The spent fuel from a light-water reactor has too much Pu-240 to be used in making bombs. The Pu-240 contamination would cause premature ignition, ending up with a "fizzle" not a real nuclear explosion. The centrifuges they have for producing fuel for the reactors can be used to make weapons grade U-235... That is the main risk.

    25. Re:Nope by mrmeval · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So if they could just take the rods one stormy night, mix it with the right diluent, properly package it and send it off on some missiles to Israel it's ok since it won't explode?

      I am so relieved.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    26. Re:Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do people honestly believe that the Iranian Government wold have no problem with Israel if they simply elected a new government? You can argue about the exact translation of Ahmadinejad's words in that one speech, but the intention is clear (especially when you take into account various other statements made before and since).

      Not to mention that Iran actively supports/funds/arms various terrorists/militant groups, including those seeking the destruction of Israel.

    27. Re:Nope by roman_mir · · Score: 0, Troll

      Do you honestly believe that if Saddam left the Iraqi government US wouldn't have invaded? After all, it's making a killing there. Get it? A killing.

      Literally killing millions AND figuratively making trillions first in military and now mostly in private contracts.

      Is anybody left in the world not understanding why US starts wars? For profit of its military industrial complex. AFAIC, I'd rather have ideologies and ideologues leading countries than sell outs who are after a buck.

      So if you are so set against Iran seeking the destruction of Israel (which is none of my business, what do I care if Israel is destroyed?) then why didn't US attack Iran in the first place after the 9/11? Bush and Romney and Cheney were already lying through the teeth about Iraq's role in 9/11 and about those WMDs, why couldn't they have gone after a 'more legitimate' target?

      Because again, it's about the money.

      AFAIC the intentions of USA are MUCH MORE CLEAR than intentions of Iran.

      Intentions of USA is to start as many wars as it possibly can to make as much money in all of these contracts as possible. Iranian government only hates Israel because Israel is USA's ally.

      Israel has positioned itself in the Middle East as USA's right hand and Middle East is seeking to cut that hand off. Whatever.

      USA bombed Yugoslavia, they bombed the country into a stone age. The Vietnam war, Korea, and all other conflicts USA has started and provoked and made money in shows how dangerous and rogue and evil it really is.

      You want to talk about 'axis of evil'? USA is the center of it.

    28. Re:Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A nice anti-US rant (although hardly original), but completely irrelevant in regards to my question.

    29. Re:Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      many would be glad if they did that, with the US budget problems they could probably cut my taxes a couple bucks not having to send money to Izzy and not having to fund wars in the M.E. to prop up Izzy's interests.

    30. Re:Nope by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      ". Japan currently has a stockpile of over 43 tons of plutonium, all separated from spent fuel extracted from commercial light-water reactors"


      that is how they plan on fueling their battlemechs i assume?

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    31. Re:Nope by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I answered a question that was asked in the parent comment, you are all ACs, you all look the same to me.

      1. Intentions of Iran are NOT clear, no matter what the government illegitimate leader is saying. Go ahead, list the Iranian intentions that are clear.

      2. USA selectively supports/funds/arms militant groups, including those seeking destruction of various countries, including Israel. It's called arms trade.

    32. Re:Nope by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Iran *had* a right to develop nuclear weapons, which they voluntarily surrendered when they signed the non-proliferation treaty. In return for this they got a promise that *we* would help develop civilian nuclear power.

      Iran still has that right, you fucktard. If they're violating the NPT, the only remedy is to stop helping them. If a country signs a treaty saying 'In return for not doing X, you will do Y', and they then do X, the only remedy allowable under international law is to stop doing Y. That's it. It does not justify an invasion or bombing or anything. Nothing in the piece of paper Iran signed said 'And if I don't do this, you can invade'. Iran can do whatever the hell it wants WRT to nuclear weapons.

      It is, in fact, a war crime to threaten to invade other countries, regardless of what treaties they've signed and if they're following them. Yes, to threaten them, much less invade. It's called a 'crime against peace'.

      The only legal result is for us to claim they're in violation and stop helping them develop or operate a nuclear reactor. Oh, we're not helping them? The Russians are?

      Well, then the only remedy is to convince the Russians they're in violation. Which the Russians, being a good deal less stupid than the average US-media watcher, don't think is true.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    33. Re:Nope by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      If Russia wanted to protect Iran from the US a saner plan than nuclear weapons would just be a defensive pact.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    34. Re:Nope by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      The good news is that it's very obvious if someone is breeding Pu-239 (the Plutonium used in weapons) because they can only leave the fuel in for a limited time, and then have to have a big ass plant for doing chemical separation of the stuff you want, from the stuff you don't. We're not talking some underground cave with a centrifuge cascade in it, we're talking massive facilities like Hanford or Y-12.

      Leave the rods in too long, you get Pu-240 and Pu-241 which spontaneously fissions and makes the material you have unsuitable for a weapon. There is no process to perform isotope separation on Plutonium. If you have too much -240 or -241, then you're fucked for weapons making. Being as this facility is being overseen by the Russians, and the Russians know how to effectively make bombs, it will be very apparent should the Iranians all of a sudden take the reactor sub-critical and unload the fuel months-to-years before they need to in order to get the Pu-239 from the rods.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    35. Re:Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well they can just give them the bombs then. Problem is Iran doesn't want bombs, it wants a reactor.

    36. Re:Nope by ygslash · · Score: 1

      There are not international concerns over this plant.

      There are indeed very serious international concerns over this plant. It's not so much a concern that this plant itself will be a practical way for the Iranians to produce military-grade fissionable materials. Rather, this plant is a major contribution to Iran's nuclear infrastructure. There is a huge pool of engineers and scientists who are gaining hands-on advanced practical knowledge of nuclear science and technology because of this plant. There are also many related manufacturing technologies, and much more, which surround this plant.

      Iran does not need this plant to supply itself with electricity. There is no question that their motivation is military.

    37. Re:Nope by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      So why aren't we that sure whether North Korea has nukes?

    38. Re:Nope by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "So if they could just take the rods one stormy night, mix it with the right diluent, properly package it and send it off on some missiles to Israel it's ok since it won't explode?"

      That's WAY too much work. Set the rods around a bursting charge then deliver however you like. No need to worry about handling if your handlers are expendable.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    39. Re:Nope by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      But But But I want to write scripts for TV!!!

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
  5. Uuuuh they've started loading fuel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Guess we're gonna get a global heads-up when they finish loading fuel, when they flick the switch, when it has run for a day, a week, a month and a year.

    Call me when they've built a nuke and launch it at Israel in a religious hissy-fit.

    1. Re:Uuuuh they've started loading fuel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So sometime next year?

  6. Don't know what to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'm not sure if I should be happy that a more sensible energy source is being used, or if I should give into the fearmongering... so... I'll break out into song!

    And Iran...
    Iran's so far away.
    I plus ran.
    They claim they have no gays...
    I don't know what to say.

    1. Re:Don't know what to say... by AnonymousClown · · Score: 1

      I couldn't get away ...

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:Don't know what to say... by omidaladini · · Score: 1

      They claim they have no gays...

      'He' claims.

    3. Re:Don't know what to say... by briniel · · Score: 1

      Iwalked

    4. Re:Don't know what to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every time we talk about Iran and a friend of mine is near, he breaks out in a dance and sings:

      It's Iranian Men! Hallelujah! - It's Iranian Men! Amen!
      I'm gonna go out to run and let myself get
      Absolutely soaking mad!
      It's Iranian Men! Hallelujah!
      It's Iranian Men! Every Specimen!
      Tall, blonde, dark and lean
      Rough and tough and strong and mean

      [Apologies to the Weather Girls]

      I love how it is laden with irony in so many ways.

  7. No one's made the comment yet.... by Raxxon · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Another 210 MWatt at max and they could go back to 1955!

    1. Re:No one's made the comment yet.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1.21 niggawatts and you could extend your peen by 1cm

  8. Let's see by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's 6849 barrels of oil per day they are going to save (the rough amount required to produce 500MW per day). At $74 a barrel that's about half a million dollars per day. Every day. Oil that they can now export to China and Russia that otherwise would have been burned up in domestic consumption. It doesn't take long before a plant like this pays for itself.

    But oh, mention Iran and nuclear in the same paragraph and all the paranoid uninformed imperialist types appear, yelling "nuclear weapons!". Despite nuclear energy (or any other form of alternative energy) being an extremely sane choice for an oil exporting nation.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:Let's see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But oh, mention Iran and nuclear in the same paragraph and all the paranoid uninformed imperialist types appear, yelling "nuclear weapons!". Despite nuclear energy (or any other form of alternative energy) being an extremely sane choice for an oil exporting nation.

      Maybe, perhaps, it's because every time their leader opens his mouth he mentions wiping a nearby country off the map. We couldn't say we weren't warned.

    2. Re:Let's see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That's 6849 barrels of oil per day they are going to save (the rough amount required to produce 500MW per day). At $74 a barrel that's about half a million dollars per day. Every day. Oil that they can now export to China and Russia that otherwise would have been burned up in domestic consumption. It doesn't take long before a plant like this pays for itself.

      Let's see. half a million a day. About $185 million a year.

      Cost of the plant - more than 3 billion euros. Call if $4 billion.

      What interest do Iranian bonds pay? 1%? Less? More? Let's assume 1% for grins. Which adds up to about 25 years to pay back the cost of the plant.

      Well, it'll be paid back that quickly if there are no operating costs, or refueling costs, or anything like that...

      Hardly my definition of "it doesn't take long before a plant like this pays for itself".....

    3. Re:Let's see by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Informative

      he mentions wiping a nearby country off the map.

            I see you're going for the exaggerated sensationalist translation, rather than the factually correct one "this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."

            This is what happens when you let other people think for you. Iran's foreign policy is by no means sweet and innocent. But then again neither is US foreign policy. Remember the US doesn't just talk about removing regimes, it actually does it (or tries to). Grenada, Liberia, Panama, Haiti, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq... and these are the obvious ones - the ones we actually know about.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:Let's see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He never said that. The idiom doesn't exist in farsi, he couldn't have said it, you're just a victim of fearmongering preparing for war against Iran.

    5. Re:Let's see by marlinSpike · · Score: 1

      Oh, and that 'other' country isn't just as provocative by openly planning bombing raids, not to mention turning a nearby nation into a massive prison camp? Of course, the best part of it all is that the 'other' country already fucking has nuclear weapons! Wake up Sheeple!

    6. Re:Let's see by Dunbal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hardly my definition of "it doesn't take long before a plant like this pays for itself".....

      You're forgetting to include 500MW of electricity they didn't have before. Electricity that will be a) sold to pay for the plant and b) will permit economic growth. If you're going to analyze the whole picture, you have to consider everything.

      I was just mentioning that this electricity is not being obtained by burning oil, allowing them to export more oil than if they had built a 500MW oil burning plant. This "savings" is a "bonus" for choosing nuclear over oil. All other things being equal, an oil burning plant would have had to be paid for too - they're not free.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    7. Re:Let's see by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Or if its not all used for export ect they can put the oil to good use internally for refining. The nuclear plant really helps them a lot anyway you do the maths, for own use, export or power generation.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    8. Re:Let's see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Iran's foreign policy is by no means sweet and innocent. But then again neither is US foreign policy. Remember the US doesn't just talk about removing regimes, it actually does it (or tries to).

      And this is what happens when you reduce everything to generalities. Iran speaks of wiping out a nation. America talks about replacing leaders. Ahmadinejad is not looking to put a different set of Jews in power in Israel. You use one quote for your straw-man reply. Why not compile a list of speeches by top Iranian officials and see just how far they're willing to go.

    9. Re:Let's see by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      Not to mention expertise for building more and cheaper plants later on.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    10. Re:Let's see by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      That's 6849 barrels of oil per day they are going to save (the rough amount required to produce 500MW per day)

      If I'm reading it right, the wiki page mentions they only use oil for about 18% of their electrical needs. Iran, being rich in natural gas AND oil, uses that for a lot more of it's electricity.

      So I'm guessing they're not going to be saving all that much oil with this.

    11. Re:Let's see by pdabbadabba · · Score: 1

      I'm all for pointing out that the popular translation is probably exaggerated, but it's probably misleading to refer to your literal translation as the "factually correct one." Anyone out there who is actually interested in this should look here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/11bronner.html?_r=1

      Here's the New York Times' conclusion:

      So did Iran's president call for Israel to be wiped off the map? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question.

    12. Re:Let's see by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      big diff between US imperialism (which it is, to be honest) and what iran wants to do.

      we have NEVER had, as our goal, the death of all occupants of a country!

      but read up on what iran (and actually, all muslim states) want. read the translations where 'trees come alive' and rat out jews so they can be killed.

      I'm not making this stuff up!

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism

      "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).Sahih Muslim, 41:6985, see also Sahih Muslim, 41:6981, Sahih Muslim, 41:6982, Sahih Muslim, 41:6983, Sahih Muslim, 41:6984, Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:56:791,(Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:177)

      that's some good ole' home-cooked race hatred there. right there in the hadith (very holy writing for moslems).

      so, you want to give nuclear power to a bunch of people who think this way?

      (shudder)

      until they revise their writings (yeah, that will happen..) then we have no reason to ever trust people who posess this faith. its violent and untrustworthy by very nature. any believer must follow this train of thought (there is no freedom of thought in this religion, none at all).

      can't you see how dangerous this is?

      its NOT just morale relativism. this is out and out 'a contract for death' for the west (long-term, at least). there can never be lasting peace as long as people believe in talking trees and ratting out your 'sworn enemies'.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    13. Re:Let's see by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      blah blah blah, US has invaded Iraq and over a MILLION civilians have died, also countless in Afghanistan.

      If Iran bombed Israel also a million could die.

      But of-course, in your mind it's not the actual outcome, but the intentions.

      If intentions are better, then the outcome is justified even if it is exactly the same.

      Well IRL people don't CARE about your intentions, they CARE about the actual real outcome.

      US is a much much bigger threat to life on this planet than all Muslims combined.

      --

      Oh, and the 'good Christians' of the USA are not going to touch the Jews, they are hoping for the Armageddon and that the god will do this for them instead.

      But remember, it's the intentions that are important, right?

    14. Re:Let's see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I see you're going for the exaggerated sensationalist translation, rather than the factually correct one "this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."

      So, how exactly do you go about changing the "occupying regime" in Israel without removing (alive or dead) the Jews that currently live there.

      Your "correct translation" is disingenuous at best.

    15. Re:Let's see by dave420 · · Score: 1

      No, the Iranian president said he hoped for the collapse of the Israeli regime. That is very different to the garbage you are spewing.

    16. Re:Let's see by chrb · · Score: 1

      Iran speaks of wiping out a nation.

      Mistranslation:

      'the statement "wiped off the map" was never made and that Ahmadinejad did not refer to the nation or land mass of Israel, but to the "regime occupying Jerusalem". Norouzi translated the original Persian to English, word for word, with the result, "the Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time." Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, agrees that Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as, "the Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).' -

      If you believe that the Iranian government wants to wipe out all the Jews, then explain Iran's proud but discreet Jews. These are Jews who have the right to settle in Israel and become Israeli citizens, but who instead choose to live in Iran: 'Imam Khomeini, recognised Jews as a religious minority that should be protected. As a result Jews have one representative in the Iranian parliament. "Imam Khomeini made a distinction between Jews and Zionists and he supported us," says Mr Hammami.

    17. Re:Let's see by chrb · · Score: 1

      Ahmadinejad is not a great person, or a great leader, but making stuff up about him is just stupid. Surely there are plenty of real reasons to dislike his policies?

      So, how exactly do you go about changing the "occupying regime" in Israel

      The statement didn't refer to "Israel" - it referred to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is "disputed or occupied" depending on who you ask: "the U.S. government, the United Nations, the International Court of Justice, the European Union, the UK, and the International Committee of the Red Cross, among other entities, all reject the Israeli usage and consistently use the term "occupied" in reference to East Jerusalem".

      without removing (alive or dead) the Jews that currently live there.

      In the same speech Ahmadinejad explained that "regime change" would come from "a democratic government elected by the people". He later clarified that "elections should be held among Jews, Christians and Muslims so the population of Palestine can select their government and destiny for themselves in a democratic manner". He has repeatedly rejected the interpretation of the translation that calls for genocide against the Jews.

    18. Re:Let's see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      blah blah blah, US has invaded Iraq and over a MILLION civilians have died, also countless in Afghanistan.

      I heard recent reports that it was over 12 MILLION innocent civilians that have died! And those are the old figures from a few months ago. They won't report this in the main stream media though.

    19. Re:Let's see by linzeal · · Score: 1

      Also the new industry from a nuclear power plant is pretty staggering when you think that in 30-40 years Iran could be competing on the international market with their own reactor designs in places like Africa.

    20. Re:Let's see by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      And not to mention that most sane people expect the price of oil to keep rising. The less they use now, the more they can sell later when it's 100x what it is now.

      Whether that will be a decade or ten decades is unknown, but Iran does think long term.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    21. Re:Let's see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a better summary: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/14/post155

      So there we have it. Starting with Juan Cole, and going via the New York Times' experts through MEMRI to the BBC's monitors, the consensus is that Ahmadinejad did not talk about any maps. He was, as I insisted in my original piece, offering a vague wish for the future.

      A very last point. The fact that he compared his desired option - the elimination of "the regime occupying Jerusalem" - with the fall of the Shah's regime in Iran makes it crystal clear that he is talking about regime change, not the end of Israel. As a schoolboy opponent of the Shah in the 1970's he surely did not favour Iran's removal from the page of time. He just wanted the Shah out.

      The same with regard to Israel. The Iranian president is undeniably an opponent of Zionism or, if you prefer the phrase, the Zionist regime. But so are substantial numbers of Israeli citizens, Jews as well as Arabs. The anti-Zionist and non-Zionist traditions in Israel are not insignificant. So we should not demonise Ahmadinejad on those grounds alone.

      Does this quibbling over phrases matter? Yes, of course. Within days of the Ahmadinejad speech the then Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, was calling for Iran to be expelled from the United Nations. Other foreign leaders have quoted the map phrase. The United States is piling pressure on its allies to be tough with Iran.

    22. Re:Let's see by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Maybe, perhaps, it's because every time their leader opens his mouth he mentions wiping a nearby country off the map. We couldn't say we weren't warned.

      With what? Lightwater pressurised reactors like the one they built can not easily be used to synthesise weapons grade plutonium, and don't require very enriched uranium to operate. I think Iran is a psycho nation as much as the next guy but if they're going to force the world atlas to go through another revision it won't be because of this reactor.

    23. Re:Let's see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try and build a factory that pays back on itself within 50 years.

    24. Re:Let's see by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      If they didn't have it before, they weren't burning any oil to produce it, now were they?

      Critical thinking. It's not for slashdotters anymore!

  9. Remain Calm! by ovanklot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I mean, we could always trust the Russians to work in our best interests. Also, they were never sneaky about anything. Always truthful and honest, them Russians.

    And Iran only threatened to wipe The West off the map, starting with Israel, with any means at their disposal. And that they could make a nuclear bomb if they wanted to, because it was a right granted to them from Allah.

    Not to mention that they're playing the North Korean game of "let's talk" / "we're not talking to you anymore" / "let's talk" / "we're not talking to you anymore" with the UN. Remember what North Korea has now after a few years of that? Ah, yes, The Bomb.

    And all this in the hands of a fanatic regime, intent on spreading Islam through force, feared and hated even by most other Islamic nations, all the while being one of the most horrible human-rights violators of our time.

    But there's nothing to fear. They're not after the bomb. They say they are, but there's nothing to worry about. It's just a nuclear power plant.

    REMAIN CALM!

    --
    "Programming is life, the rest is mere details"
    1. Re:Remain Calm! by AnonymousClown · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not to mention that they're playing the North Korean game of "let's talk" / "we're not talking to you anymore" / "let's talk" / "we're not talking to you anymore" with the UN.

      The UN is Codependent - they get off on it.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:Remain Calm! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of that shit and more could be applied to the USA as well. Ever wonder why most of the world hates the USA? It's because of this righteous attitude and the belief that they can control every country in the world.

    3. Re:Remain Calm! by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So, basically, what you are saying here is that you are incredibly easy to manipulate with standard media techniques.

      Were you also one of those zombie imbeciles waving a flag as we invaded Iraq?

      Or are you the worst kind of all; the sort who still refuses to acknowledge that we were lied to?

      Did you miss the last 8 years of bullshit? Have you learned nothing about government lies?

      Are you under 18 or just retarded?

      -FL

    4. Re:Remain Calm! by nloop · · Score: 1

      After hundreds of chemical weapon attacks were levied on them in the 1980s they retaliated by telling an international community who didn't care. They did not respond by attacking civilians or using chemical weapons. What loons.

    5. Re:Remain Calm! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at the way the majority of the posts have been modded... it is kind of sad that so many people with mod points are uninformed or just bullshit swallowing flag wavers, regardless of the facts.

    6. Re:Remain Calm! by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      oil rich middle east country says its 'short of energy' and needs nukes to make electricity.

      you buy that? really?

      sometimes things are really simple. this is one of those cases.

      or, can you please explain the 'need' for nuclear power in a mid-east oil rich country?

      http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Iran/Oil.html

      according to that, they have more oil than they know what to do with!

      wtf! why is the world allowing them to create ww3? seriously. they are on record saying they will destroy 'the west' if given a chance.

      this is lunacy. glass parking lot? not likely - unless its in the west, a few decades from now.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    7. Re:Remain Calm! by Max_W · · Score: 1

      Always truthful and honest, them Russians.

      I do not trust neither all Russians, nor all Americans. There are good people honest in Russia and there are good people in the USA, and there is an eternal undecided struggle between good and evil in both nations.

    8. Re:Remain Calm! by whatajoke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I mean, we could always trust the Russians to work in our best interests. Also, they were never sneaky about anything. Always truthful and honest, them Russians.

      WTF? What retarded country do you belong to? Russians recently defended a massacre in south Ossetia by a US backed puppet Georgian government.

      And Iran only threatened to wipe The West off the map, starting with Israel, with any means at their disposal. And that they could make a nuclear bomb if they wanted to, because it was a right granted to them from Allah.

      US and UK are directly responsible for sabotaging a democratic coutry's chosen government. They actually wiped out an entire nation's will to govern itself.

      Not to mention that they're playing the North Korean game of "let's talk" / "we're not talking to you anymore" / "let's talk" / "we're not talking to you anymore" with the UN. Remember what North Korea has now after a few years of that? Ah, yes, The Bomb.

      Brazil got results out of Iran with no more than a week of negotiation. And then USA still kept rattling the sword over the deal. Yeah, that is exactly like North Korea.

      And all this in the hands of a fanatic regime, intent on spreading Islam through force, feared and hated even by most other Islamic nations, all the while being one of the most horrible human-rights violators of our time.

      China commits far more human rights violations. Guess which one the MSM mentions the most.

      But there's nothing to fear. They're not after the bomb. They say they are, but there's nothing to worry about. It's just a nuclear power plant.

      Fine, please disarm the only country in history of mankind to have used the nuclear bomb on civilian population, and actually considered using it again during the Korean war.

    9. Re:Remain Calm! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So many countries got teh bawmb!!1 and look, wth... no world war 3!? Teh comunists got it, teh evil Russia, China, Libya, N.Korea, [S]Iraq[/S]...

        And now news at 11, d00m! D:

      REMAIN HYSTERICAL!

    10. Re:Remain Calm! by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Fine, please disarm the only country in history of mankind to have used the nuclear bomb on civilian population, and actually considered using it again during the Korean war."

      That was a distinction without a difference, because WWII was Total War where the civilian population was also completely engaged in war production and sustainment.

      The initiation of total war BY Japan made it completely justifiable and just (in the sense of justice) to destroy Japan and Japanese until they broke and stopped fighting. Japan wasn't the quaint vision currently beloved of weaboos. It was completely vicious, had behaved monstrously with recreational sadism aforethought (Nanking, anyone?) and is fortunate we didn't have more nuke on hand to hose the place.

      http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&tbs=isch:1&&sa=X&ei=rmZxTLz4NYX7lweD2LyrDQ&ved=0CCMQBSgA&q=rape+of+nanking&spell=1&biw=1280&bih=626

      It cost enough G.I.s to roll up the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere without holding back nuclear weapons. Japan required beating into utter submission, and it got what it asked for.

      As for Korea, keep in mind that tactical nukes were a reasonable counter to massed enemy forces. Lest we forget, atmospheric testing had proven their use to be quite PRACTICAL. Not wanting to open that can of worms was a good reason to refrain, but the Korean War turned cold right around the time the US developed convenient tactical nukes. Nukes kept the Norks in their box, exemplified by the aircraft that sat Zulu Alert for decades. Had the mob of North Koreans tried to crash into the South, they'd have been rightly incinerated.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    11. Re:Remain Calm! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, you gotta pass around what you're smoking, that seems like some good stuff. Russia INVADED Georgia. They've had quite a bit of back and forth since Georgia broke off from the USSR, no need to invent reasons. It would be like the US invading New Mexico if New Mexico decided to leave the union. It was done simply as a power move to ensure continued Russian influence in that area.

      Also, I'm a little confused as to what country you think the US and UK sabotaged. Iraq, where we removed a dictator (not a democratically elected leader)? Afghanistan, where we removed a terrorist-aiding regime that provided (state sponsored) aid and comfort to the group that attacked New York?

      I understand you're trying to paint the US and anyone associated with us as evil, but not everyone here has the far-left progressive talking points memorized. In the future, I would ask that you be a bit more specific please, thanks!

    12. Re:Remain Calm! by Jubedgy · · Score: 1

      Actually, that oil comment got me thinking. They have lots of oil, but can only extract it at a certain rate. Assuming this oil provides a significant portion of their GDP, why would they want to waste it domestically for energy production? Selling to foreign markets provides hard currency where using it domestically would only be like spinning a tire in mud?

      --
      Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis hebes
    13. Re:Remain Calm! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is this Insightful? I can see +5 Interesting, but it's neither Informative nor Insightful.

    14. Re:Remain Calm! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Iran only threatened to wipe The West off the map, starting with Israel, with any means at their disposal.

      Pasted from less than half the page above:
      "I see you're going for the exaggerated sensationalist translation, rather than the factually correct one "this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).""

    15. Re:Remain Calm! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US commits far more human rights violations. Guess which one the MSM mentions the most.

      FTFY

    16. Re:Remain Calm! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wow, you gotta pass around what you're smoking, that seems like some good stuff. Russia INVADED Georgia.

      Russia invaded several border towns in Georgia (and then retreated) after Georgian troops indiscriminately shelled and then invaded the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali - targeting strictly civilian objects - and, as an aside, deliberately placing several shells on the barracks of Russian peacekeepers, killing and wounding many. NATO, OSCE and EU are all in agreement that Georgian forces were the first to invade South Ossetia (before any Russian troops other than peacekeepers entered Ossetia, much less any other part of Georgia), and the first to fire shots.

      A step aside for some background. The relationship of South Ossetia vs Georgia is quite similar to that of Kosovo and Serbia. When Georgia declared its independence from Soviet Union, it did so within the borders of Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic - which included Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Shortly afterwards, Georgian leader at the time, Zviad Gamsakhurdia, announced the "Georgia for the Georgians" policy - Georgia was to become a monoethnic nation-state, with Ossetians and Abkhazians to be partly expulsed and partly assimilated. Naturally, this didn't fly well with either of those peoples, so they in turn declared independence from Georgia. In both cases Georgia tried to retain control by force - for South Ossetia, this was the 1991-1992 war, which ended up with Georgia withdrawing without admitting defeat, and Ossetia declaring independence which was not internationally recognized (due to Georgia not recognizing it), but maintaining it de facto for 16 years by 2008.

      Now, imagine a hypothetical scenario: Serbian troops - need I remind that Serbia does not recognize the independence of Kosovo? - declares the intent to "enforce its territorial integrity", invades Kosovo, and indiscriminately shells Prishtina, killing numerous civilians. They also do several aimed artillery strikes at KFOR peacekeepers stationed in the city. What would be the reaction of US and other NATO members to that?

      Well, let's see In 1998, Serbia was subjected to bombings that were much more severe than anything Russia did in Georgia in 2008, for doing exactly the same thing that Georgians did - an attack on a de facto independent state to forcibly annex it. Unlike Georgians, Serbs didn't attack any international peacekeeping force while doing so, either. And yet NATO operation involved deliberate strikes on primarily civilian objects that were classed as "dual use" by NATO military, such as railroad bridges - with some messy results.

      On the whole, all Russian bombings and invasion of Georgia resulted in 228 civilian casualties (according to Georgia); whereas Serbian civilian casualties in NATO bombings of 1998 number ~500 according to NATO itself, and over 1000 according to Serbia. So, even taking the most favorable figures, NATO response to Serbian invasion of Kosovo was twice as strong as Russian response to Georgian invasion of South Ossetia. So much for "disproportionate", I guess.

    17. Re:Remain Calm! by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      None of what's been said came from the American government. It came from Iran themselves.

      The American government has plenty of its own faults, but if you don't believe in Islamist fascism when it comes from the horse's mouth, you're deluding yourself.

  10. Air strike would be folly by HangingChad · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If Israel struck the plant and killed a bunch of Russian engineers, that would be bad. If the strike put a radioactive plum in the air that drifted over part of China or India, that would be worse.

    Not to mention the fact that if the Russians really got cheesed off they could just sell Iran warheads.

    Any country with enough money and enough time is going to be able to acquire nuclear weapons. We might have to face the fact that there may not always be a military solution.

    Canada doesn't have nuclear weapons, they don't feel the need to squander their collective treasure maintaining 12 aircraft carrier groups and they seem to get along just fine. Let some other country pick up some of the tab for being the world's policeman. We need that money here.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    1. Re:Air strike would be folly by h4rm0ny · · Score: 4, Insightful


      Don't disagree with the gist of your argument, but just want to say that the Russians aren't going to sell Iran nuclear warheads. That's too big and gives up Russia's powerful bargaining position in the area. What Russia has threatened to do and which Iran would love, is for Russia to sell them some modern anti-aircraft defence systems. Right now, Israel can credibly threaten to bomb Iran (and has threatened). If Russia follows through and sells them modern systems then Israels ability to threaten is somewhat reduced.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    2. Re:Air strike would be folly by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Canada doesn't have nuclear weapons,"

      Canada has absolutely no need for combat forces of any type whatsoever. Its situation is unique. It has no important international relationships and is completely protected by the US due to its location.

      Canada's military exists so it can pretend it matters to the United Nations. Not a bad thing, but hardly necessary.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    3. Re:Air strike would be folly by ian_from_brisbane · · Score: 0

      If the strike put a radioactive plum in the air that drifted over part of China or India, that would be worse.

      Those flying radioactive plums are never good news.

    4. Re:Air strike would be folly by mattcsn · · Score: 1

      Absolutely right. Canada's army, navy and air force are useless wastes of money. To the south is the US, who would never invade us for a few trillion economic reasons. To the north we've got a giant frozen tundra followed by a giant frozen ocean bordered by Russia's own giant frozen tundra north - and we get along well with Russia anyway. To the east is an ocean bordered by economic allies and dominated by the US navy, and to the west is the biggest ocean on the planet - also bordered by economic allies and also dominated by the US navy.

      CSIS can do the traditional spy stuff. Let the RCMP and local police handle counter-terrorism. The coast guard can do the smuggling interdiction and search-and-rescue. There isn't a single issue that Canada faces that can be handled best by the military. Shut it all down, save the cash, and we'd all be better off.

    5. Re:Air strike would be folly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I get the spirit of your argument, Canada is a member of NATO, and does have important international relationships. They have soldiers in Afghanistan because an article of the NATO charter was invoked, requiring them to come to the military aid of other NATO members.

    6. Re:Air strike would be folly by Ed_1024 · · Score: 1

      I'd give good odds that Iran has nuclear weapons and has had them for some time. They border on a fair few parts of the old Soviet Union and when that was breaking up, there were (allegedly) tactical nukes on the market. At the very least, I don't think anyone can account for all of them. Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan: all stable nations at peace with the world and no need for cash. Iran's other neighbours include Afghanistan and Pakistan...

      The British Prime Minister, newly elected, was recorded two weeks ago as saying "...like the fact that Iran has got a nuclear weapon...". He was later said to have "misspoken", and had made a "basic mistake". More likely he'd recently received a huge security briefing as a new world leader and forgot that bit wasn't public knowledge.

    7. Re:Air strike would be folly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canada "gets along just fine" only because we know that the U.S. has our back in any confrontation. That is the sole, 100%, only reason we don't need to have a military buildup, which we probably couldn't afford or manage with our resources anyway. If the States didn't have that huge military, or if we messed up our friendly relations across the longest undefended border in the world (which is something for both nations to be proud of), we'd be up a creek.

      -Zirbert, a real live Canadian (posting AC 'cause I don't have a /. account, and my number would be embarrassingly high if I signed up now...)
      http://zirbert.blogspot.com

    8. Re:Air strike would be folly by NetNinja · · Score: 1

      "Canada doesn't have nuclear weapons, they don't feel the need to squander their collective treasure maintaining 12 aircraft carrier groups and they seem to get along just fine. Let some other country pick up some of the tab for being the world's policeman. We need that money here."

      WOA! that was a pretty bold statement from somone who benefits from having a friendly border. Considering Canadas largest trading partner is the U.S. of Fucking A!
      And don't you think for even a split moment that the U.S. would not send those squandered 12 Aircraft carriers to defend your country if the Russians ever had even a passing momment of attacking you.

      In fact why doesn't Cannada pick up the tab for being the worlds police force? You guys don't piss anyone off. Of thats right! you need a Navy to do that sort of work. Better start Rowing! In fact why don't you join the peace corps. I bet you never even served in the military. (psst I have so you counter argument on that point was shot down)

      I love how people sit back and pontificate on the issues of the world and have no freaking clue.

      That statment you just made sir was a blatant liberal democratic lie.

      .

    9. Re:Air strike would be folly by tokul · · Score: 1

      If Israel struck the plant

      Osiraq is 18 km from Baghdad (see dot on the map, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad).
      Bushehr plant is 17 km south east of Bushehr (see dot, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushehr).

      IAF was operating at max range of their planes when they bombed Osiraq. If they bomb Bushehr, their mission will be one way. Last time I checked IAF were smart enough to bomb nuclear reactor before fuel was loaded. There is no "if Israel struck the plant". There is no point to bomb VVER reactor. IR-40 heavy water reactor is more dangerous and Bushehr is Iran's "peaceful nuclear research" excuse.

    10. Re:Air strike would be folly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Israel struck the plant

      Osiraq is 18 km from Baghdad (see dot on the map, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad).

      Bushehr plant is 17 km south east of Bushehr (see dot, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushehr).

      IAF was operating at max range of their planes when they bombed Osiraq. If they bomb Bushehr, their mission will be one way. Last time I checked IAF were smart enough to bomb nuclear reactor before fuel was loaded. There is no "if Israel struck the plant". There is no point to bomb VVER reactor. IR-40 heavy water reactor is more dangerous and Bushehr is Iran's "peaceful nuclear research" excuse.

      Ummm, this is 2010. That was the 1980s. While some of the same general planes are in use, there are many modifications, upgrades, and new models in use in the IAF. You're also assuming no covert collaboration from anyone within a closer range. When Osiraq was hit, a lot of people complained on the world stage, but secretly almost all countries were ecstatic. I'm not saying it was covert in that case, but if it were, that's how it works.

    11. Re:Air strike would be folly by Jubedgy · · Score: 1

      As I recall, Canada did support D-Day at...Juno beach I believe. And they did beat off two invasions. One from the continental army in the war for independence, one from the US during the war of 1812. Hockey sticks may or may not have been involved, historians are not clear on that point.

      --
      Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis hebes
    12. Re:Air strike would be folly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, we all must be weary of all radioactive plums...

    13. Re:Air strike would be folly by tokul · · Score: 1

      You're also assuming

      You are assuming that Muslims are stupid and they haven't learned anything after Osiraq. Iranian nuclear program is decentralized. At least 16 different targets.

    14. Re:Air strike would be folly by MaGGuN · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the fact that if the Russians really got cheesed off they could just sell Iran warheads.

      Russia has obligations according to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and Article I explicitly forbids "Selling warheads". And even if they did disregard this treaty, expect the revival of the nuclear shield.

      Any country with enough money and enough time is going to be able to acquire nuclear weapons. We might have to face the fact that there may not always be a military solution.

      So basically you suggest we just abandon the NNPT? And with the submissive attitude that "they will get it anyway". Ignorance at its best/worst. Albeit difficult at best, we owe it to mankind and future generations to strive for a world free of nuclear weapons. More realistically: That we do our utmost to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Particularly when combined with totalitarian regimes and hostile intents.

      If you somehow are offered a pivotal position in these questions, please refrain ;-)

    15. Re:Air strike would be folly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mmmmm.....radioactive plums......aghgahghaghg...

  11. Total BS by helbent · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I always shake my head and ruefully smile when I see these fear-mongering stories about hyped-up fears of “An Iranian Nuke in our Future!” and similar drivel. The IAEA inspects the program at ever single step of the way and of something is veering off course, everyone in the UN and the US will know. So far that hasn't happened, and my guess is that it won't.

    For the record there's no simple, direct way to readily convert fuel-grade uranium into weapons-grade uranium, short of building a breeder reactor, and that's not exactly something you can do in your backyard or garage. Fuel-grade uranium doesn't go into a nuke, and you don't put weapons-grade uranium into your reactor, unless you want a really big “boom”.

    As it stands, the only nation in the Mideast that illegally built a nuclear weapons program outside of international purview was Israel, and they got some of the initial materials to do so by smuggling the uranium from a refinement facility in Apollo, Pennsylvania in the late 1960's (c.f.: The Samson Option by Seymour Hersh). Yet you never hear two peeps about the “destabilizing influence in the Mideast” of that nuclear bandit state in the press, do you?

    Also, let's not forget that the entire [crooked] line of thought is brought to you by the same perpetual prevaricators who threw up a lot of hot air about “Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq!” and “Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan!” and then were trying to beat the drums for a war with Syria under the pretense of “Saddam moved all the weapons to Syria (and Iran!)” It's the same old, tired media meme rehashed once again for a petty excuse to get us involved in another war we don't need and can't afford.

    For my part, I'd like to see every media editor that purports that very same lie to be strung up, just so the air can be cleared a bit.

    1. Re:Total BS by GiveBenADollar · · Score: 1

      You can most certainly use weapons grade uranium in a reactor. The Navy does it right now, that's how they have 20 years between refueling. Uranium fuel does easily convert into small amounts of plutonium. All you need is a reactor. A breeder reactor is designed to convert LARGE amounts of uranium into plutonium. Yes there are fear mongerers, but to completely dismiss any fears is just as foolish.

    2. Re:Total BS by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      Yet you never hear two peeps about the “destabilizing influence in the Mideast” of that nuclear bandit state in the press, do you?

      Actually, every single time the Iranian nuclear program is mentioned.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    3. Re:Total BS by michael_cain · · Score: 1

      Add that one of the characteristics of a reactor designed for plutonium production is to get a high ratio of Pu-239 in the isotope mix. Typically this involves either frequent refueling, or a separate set of U-238 targets which can be easily inserted and removed from the reactor core.

    4. Re:Total BS by Jubedgy · · Score: 1

      The only difference between fuel grade and weapon grade uranium is the ratio of U-235 to U-238. All that really translates into is how much fissile uranium you have per gram of material (ie, you get more bang for your buck as the ratio favors 235). That is the only difference. Otherwise, it is still just neutrons smashing into atoms. There are many reactors today that use weapon grade uranium as fuel...hint, what reactors need to be physically small but last for a long time?

      Insightful? Nope. Ignorant of the basic physics in nuclear reactors? Yep.

      I know, I know, don't feed the trolls and all that.

      --
      Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis hebes
    5. Re:Total BS by Chuck_McDevitt · · Score: 1

      Converting fuel grade uranium to weopons grade requires centrifuges.... Which Iran has, supposedly only for creating fuel for reactors

    6. Re:Total BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your post is so wrong that it's hard to know where to start.

      > The IAEA inspects the program at ever single step of the way

      Including the parts that remained undeclared by Iran until someone else found them? How about the enrichment facilities in off-limits military bunkers?

      > For the record there's no simple, direct way to readily convert fuel-grade uranium into weapons-grade uranium, short of building a breeder reactor
      What? Aren't breeders for making plutonium (a byproduct of uranium fission)? Iran is refining uranium with centrifuges (in order to separate out the useful isotopes). How much fissile uranium you get out of that is directly related to how many iterations you run it through the centrifuges. When they decided to go from 3-5% enriched to 20%, it was just a matter of more centrifuge passes. 20% is enough for an inefficient nuclear bomb. If they decide to go higher, again, it's just a matter of more passes through the same centrifuges. Which is why it's a BIG FUCKING DEAL when Iran has unmonitored refinement sites.

      > Fuel-grade uranium doesn't go into a nuke, and you don't put weapons-grade uranium into your reactor
      20% is enough for a mushroom cloud. On the other end, you can use *any* percent over 3% enriched for power, it's just a matter of different reactor design to control the fission rate. Research reactors run into the 40% range and nuclear submarine reactors go up to the 90s (much less fuel required that way).

    7. Re:Total BS by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Why, it's almost as though Islamists were trying to cover for their own violent rise to power by demonizing Israel!

  12. Mod this up. by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    This needs to be modded up.

    The world needs an FAQ which should be required reading by everybody with a keyboard and the ability to vote.

    Sheesh.

    -FL

  13. MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Right now, we're just dealing with karma of past actions by our government.

    If we kept our noses out of others business, the World would probably be a much different place and there would be less hatred towards us."

    It's sad that so few Americans understand this.

    1. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Right now, we're just dealing with karma of past actions by our government.

      If we kept our noses out of others business, the World would probably be a much different place and there would be less hatred towards us."

      It's sad that so few Americans understand this.

      Yes, the world would be different. It is a pity that you've lost the context of why these interventions occurred. It is no secret that the Soviet Union was actively destabilizing and/or annexing nearby countries. This started under Stalin before the US even tried to intervene or push back. The US policy in Iran, Cuba, and other places was hamfisted, there is no doubt. But the strategy was containment and it worked. While the Soviet Union continued to destabilize countries until its dissolution, the rate of destabilization rapidly decreased from the 60s onwards. The installation of puppet governments and outright annexations also decreased.

      I don't know if you are arguing against (or even acknowledging) the US policy of containment or whether you think that the US should have been smarter and less abusive during the implementation of containment. The former case would be foolhardy since the Soviet Union needed puppet governments that they could rob to keep their economy going. Soviet expansion would have continued until another World War broke out. The latter case is an understandable argument, but it really doesn't do us any good now (and it is just Monday morning quarterbacking).

    2. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, the world would be different. It is a pity that you've lost the context of why these interventions occurred.

      Let me remind you of "context" in one word: Oil. Using the "we have to 'contain' the soviet world takover bid" marketing line to sell the move under the fear label - no different to the WMD "context" used to invade Iraq, again, for oil.

      Here is more context than you can poke a stick at.. how about you start by looking up the "context" around British Petroleum's role in the US-Iran conforntation.

    3. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you read the same page you would see that those arguments are substantiated. The US didn't have oil interests in Iran and the US imported very little oil. The US was worried about the Soviet Union getting its hands on the oil though.

    4. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's really the pot calling the kettle black.

    5. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering the economic hit men have already come out on this subject, your just making shit up.

    6. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is Cuba and the rest of Latin America nearby the Soviet Union?

      It is no secret that the US was/is actively destabilizing democratically-elected-but-leftist (aka "communist") governments all over the world, to be replaced by US-friendly right-wing dictatorships. The Sha and Pinochet are only two of many examples.

    7. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Russia installing puppet governments = bad.
      USA installing puppet goverments = good.

      Got it. Thanks!

    8. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by miletus · · Score: 1
      The U.S. has been an aggressive, expansionist power since its inception. That's what the Monroe Doctrine, Manifest Destiny, the Mexican War, annexation of Hawaii, the Spanish American war, interventions in Haiti, etc. were all about. All this precedes the Russian revolution by many years. Even if there had been no Soviet Union, if the military intervention by the US, UK, France, etc. of 1918 had succeeded, there would have been anti-colonial and socialist movements all over the world, and the UK, US, etc. would have had their "hamfisted" interventions. Containment just means containment of popular struggles by backing corrupt, authoritarian regimes. To some extent the USSR aided those movements (Vietnam) but also hindered them (Algeria).

      Now that the USSR is gone the US is still in "containment" mode with anybody that threatens its perceived economic or political interests. So your analysis of the reasons for "containment" seem completely inverted. If anything, the USSR and its nuclear arsenal helped to contain the worst aggression of the colonial powers and the rising USA (e.g. the US didn't nuke China and Vietnam).

    9. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      And of course the USSR has *never* attempted to use Cuba as a base for military operations near the US right ? What's that you say ? Nuclear rockets ... ICBMs ... military maneuvres off the coast of Florida ?

      Oh my ...

      Besides this is about Iran, and we all know what the problem is : all cultures are equal. And since Christianity preaches tolerance and understaning, surely a theocratic muslim state will use nukes solely for the purpose of increasing tolerance and understanding, right ? Otherwise, what does that say about ... *shudder*

      You know, the new tolerance. It consists of letting people attack Jews, because they're Jewish, because not letting this happen is racist. It's the new democratic mantra (one that conveniently enough allows them to steal more money for their politicians ... whoops ... I meant constituents).

    10. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      Name 1 (one) country that hasn't been an aggressive, expanionist power since it's inception. Name 1 country that doesn't have a reputation that's at least 10 times worse than that of the US.

      Just say Iran. Come on. Unless, of course, you can't without laughing. That'd be entirely understandable. One small hint : google "plastic keys to heaven" before you claim moral superiority for mr. "there are no gays in Iran, and so we're tolerant".

    11. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fact it is the US's containment strategy that prolonged the cold war.
      Soviet expansion would have ended sooner if not for US intervention.
      Obviously, that was the whole point.

    12. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Australia. Where do I collect my prize?

    13. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      *bzzzzzzzzzzt* read up on history. What does "aboriginal" mean again ?

      And yes, you could probably chalk that one up to the British, but that's like saying America's never fought any war*.

      * in the last week

    14. Re:MOD PARENT UP !!!!!! by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      They have oil in Cuba? Why's it such a shit hole then?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  14. Not the kind of plant used for weapons by BlueParrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While it could theoretically be done, this particular plant is not very useful for making bomb material.

    In order for plutonium produced by reactors to be useful for weapons it needs to be extracted from a reactor fairly shortly after being produced, or otherwise it will be contaminated with heavier plutonium isotopes that generate a lot of heat and neutrons, making the weapon design dramatically more difficult (so difficult in fact that it is probably easier to start all over and make decent material ). For this reason plants used to make bomb material are usually smaller and built to be able to refuel quickly. Attempting to separate the plutonium isotopes after they have been mixed would likely be more difficult than "simply" enriching uranium, so that's not much of a worry either.

    It is possible to build large reactors that can function both as power-plants and bomb producers, but this generally requires them to be designed so they can change their fuel bundles while operating ( The UK and former Soviet used to do this ). For a large pressurized water reactor, like this one, it is however not practical since it would require you to shut down and restart it to replace the fuel at frequent intervals, and for such a large reactor doing that takes ages, and it would be obvious to the outside world what is going on ( you don't just hide the fact that a few gigawatt of spill heat suddenly went away ).

    Basically of all the types of power producing reactors in widespread use in the world today, a large pressurized water reactor is probably the least suitable for making plutonium. It is theoretically possible, but it is not even a fraction as big a concern as the uranium enrichment facilities Iran is also operating. Those facilities can be used to create highly enriched U-235, which is pretty much the material that is easiest to turn into a nuclear weapon. Using plutonium can have advantages for advanced weapon designs, but it is a lot easier to do with uranium.

    1. Re:Not the kind of plant used for weapons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See, this is the kind of comment I expect to see at /.

      That's what's important about this reactor: it sux for making bomb material. You won't see this point made on mainstream sites.

      Instead of discussing the technical issues w/r/t this reactor, the majority of the /. crowd descends into facile political diatribes.

      I must be new here.

    2. Re:Not the kind of plant used for weapons by vlm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While it could theoretically be done, this particular plant is not very useful for making bomb material.

      There are also thermodynamic issues that pretty much define a reactor as electric or plutonium producer. To generate Pu you need a high reaction rate which is easiest when the output temp is as low as possible = high coolant flow rate, but to generate electricity you need a high rate AND high output temperature. So a Pu plant wants as cool of a temp as possible (cheaper to maintain) and an electric plant wants as high of a temp as possible.

      One design constraint for electric plants is refueling and repair kills your output and ruins profitability. So the fuel rods spend some time in the reactor and cladding corrosion, and corrosion in general, is a big deal. Less surface area equals less corrosion. So electric reactor fuel rods tend to be a bit shorter and squatter to have minimum surface area.

      On the other hand Pu plants want the longest skinniest fuel rods they can manufacture because they need to keep the center of the rods below some material temperature limit. And the rods are only going to operate a little while in the reactor before being pulled and having the Pu extracted, so cladding/corrosion issues are kind of glossed over.

      Pu plant:
      skinny long fuel rods
      Freaking giant flow rate coolant pumps
      Everything built for low temperature
      "What, me worry?" toward cladding corrosion monitoring and the electrical gear in general

      Electric plant:
      Relatively shorter fatter fuel rods
      smaller coolant pumps
      everything built for high temperature
      Fancy ole cladding corrosion monitoring gear installed and used

      Its funny how the journalists think defining a plant as electric or Pu is just talk, but its really a pretty hard core engineering constraint that controls the whole design.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:Not the kind of plant used for weapons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Complete malarky. Our (actually not ours but the globalists) US policy has been world domination via destabilization by waging war. This is just another bogus left/right paradigm argument created to distract as has been practiced by the British Empire for many many years prior. And as far as needing puppet governments, we (U.S.) have created plenty to do the exact same as the Soviets.

      Its just corrupt empire vs corrupt empire. However change starts locally, vote for the non/anti incumbent. Abolish the Federal Reserve!

  15. Radioactive plume by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, if the Israelis think that this plant will be used to produce nuclear material for a fission bomb (or a much easier to make "dirty" bomb), they might be tempted to put it (permanently) out of action.

    If so, I wonder what would happen if they rupture the containment dome while it is running "full steam". Would there be a Chernobyl type disaster? (Hundreds of thousands evacuated, thousands of sq. kilometers contaminated for decades/centuries). Some have claimed that the costs from Chernobyl caused the bankrupting of the old USSR. Remember that instead of a few measly kg of highly radioactive material in a bomb, a reactor has TONS. (Of course maybe it has to be running for awhile to "cook" the material).

    Is this in the Israelis planning? Could they try to pick a time when the plume would go over, say, Tehran?

    Remember that the Israelis destroyed an Iraqi reactor in the 80s. Of course it hadn't started operations yet. Maybe the Israelis were afraid the fallout might hit them (but Iran is a bit further away). Of course the diplomatic fallout would be extraordinary but any attack on Iran is going to be condemned so why not achieve your goals of preventing them from getting nukes AND crippling their entire country at the same time?

  16. Just don't have homer simpson work there! by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Just don't have homer simpson work there!

    1. Re:Just don't have homer simpson work there! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Me in a nuculer power plant? Ka-Boooommm!"

  17. Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. Without US involvement in Europe, the world would not have been operating with the US dollar as the international currency.

    Since Japan wanted US owned territories, many current USians would be speaking japanese (Remember Pearl Harbour).

    But most of the grunt work was done by Russia. Canadian and displaced european forces were more numerous (and D Day for the americans went so badly because they didn't think they needed support from the British Navy guns in the landings) and the war may have delayed a year without USA involvement, but most of Europe would still have been Europe and not Germany.

    And the reason why we weren't all speaking russian is because the COLD WAR had the US and USSR pissing all over the place going "mine!". Just after WWII the russians had lost huge numbers of men and materials and would not have been able to invade any more countries.

    1. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by SakuraDreams · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wrong! Stalin's plan was originally to invade Europe after Hitler destroyed all opposition in Europe. Hitler was the bad guy, Stalin was meant to be the liberator and liberate the whole of Europe - the way Stalin liberated Poland and tried to liberate Finland in 1939. That was the plan. That plan failed because while the Soviets helped train and establish the Wehrmacht in the 30s and actively aided Hitler in the opening stages of WW2, Stalin had no idea that Hitler would turn on him so quickly. The Soviets were massing huge numbers of troops, steel bombers, heavy tanks - the Soviets had the largest number of heavy tanks in 1939 (KW1 and 2) and the largest number of bombers (TB-3). They also had the world's greatest parachute force at about 1 million trained personnel, jumping from towers became a Soviet pastime in the 30s. The SU had virtually no civilian factories, they were preparing for an all out war. The typical view of defensive war seen in Russia was a war fought on the enemy's land - as depicted by Alexander Nevsky. All these were offensive weapons and tactics. When Hitler attacked these forces were incapable of using defensive tactics, they were not even blowing up bridges because Stalin had been building bridges in the 30s to help move his forces forward. Anyhow the Soviet plan was to let the West bleed itself out on Hitler, then the Soviet Union would liberate the European proletariat after the Western European masters and trade unions were gone, and establish a socialist system in every European country. This would have happened after WW2 had it not been for the fact that the USA got in the way and prevented further Soviet imperialism. The SU was more than capable of going West and taking out the French, British and remnant German forces.

      Ideally for the US, the US could have let Stalin have all of Europe. The USA would have easily been able to trade with a socialist Europe and profit from it. The Americans instead risked war with the USSR and put their lives on the line for Germany, France, Britain and the rest of Western Europe. In Poland we wished the Americans would fight for us, but it would not be the case, still the American stance and containment allowed us to free ourselves when Gorbachev saw that he could no longer maintain Eastern Europe and would have to recreate the Soviet Economy on its own.

      I must also oppose the moral relativism in this thread. The SU treated its own population and the populations of conquered nations very badly.
      Tens of millions of civilians died including successful farmers (Kulaks), intelligentsia, ethnic minorities and anyone else who could oppose the Soviet Regime. One need only look at the Ukrainian Famine of 1932-33 now recognised as an act of genocide (Holodomor), the massacres of POWs in places like Katyn and deliberate withholding of support by the Soviet Union for the Warsaw Uprinsing against the Nazis which lead to 150-200,000 civilian deaths as Nazi reprisals.

    2. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      the Soviets helped train and establish the Wehrmacht in the 30s

      Now this must be some completely new, never before reached, level of bold faced, smirking, arrogant historical revisionism. Hitler and Stalin were bitter enemies and Wehrmacht needed no Soviet help whatsoever establishing itself in the 1930, having been simply a conglomeration of long-standing, existing German institutions of the Heer (army), the Kriegsmarine (navy) and the Luftwaffe (air force). In fact the Soviet volunteers, with Stalin's blessing, actively fought Wehrmacht in Spain when Hitler assisted Franco.

      The only "cooperation" between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany occurred during the attack on Poland in 1939, who at the time was the enemy of both, having attacked Soviet Union repeatedly trying to re-conquer Lithuania - seems that all sides involved had rather arrogant delusions of grandeur.

      So the rest of your comment can be safely dismissed as is likely equally as reliable as that statement about Soviets helping to "train" and "establish" Wehrmacht.

    3. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      Uhm, you really are clueless: The Soviet Union was instrumental in rebuilding and training Wehrmacht. 300 Luftwaffe pilots trained and developed new methods in Lipetsk, in Russia. Tank tactics were developed in Russia too, near Kazan. There were huge areas assigned to the germans, with german names, german street signs etc.

    4. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 2, Informative

      Uhm ... not quite.

      You're the revisionist here. Google "molotov ribbentrop" and read up on a bit of history preceding it. You do know that nazi translates to socialist, right ? Why wouldn't they have been allies ?*

      It is a proven historical fact that the USSR knew beforehand about Hitler's invasions (including dates), and supported the attacks (or at least did nothing to stop them). Furthermore the USSR knew beforehand of the endlosung and even helped Nazi intelligence with it.

      Wikipedia's take. Note the mention of "territorial and political rearrangements", in a secret part of the treaty.

      But hey, what's a bit of lying when it's to demonize the US ? Let's chalk up your statement to be "fake but accurate", right ? Also known as lying and deceiving for political ends. Hey isn't that exactly what you accuse (but fail to prove in a big way) your opponents of ?

      * I know of course, that you're intention is to demonize the right, even knowing full well that all genocides of the 20th century were committed by people who self-identified as "socialists", and professed policies (ie. government control of the economy) that are clearly leftist. Oh right you self-identify as socialist, so of course you want to deny that blatant fact of history. And we're to accept that they are the complete opposite of you, that they really were *shudder* republikans. Any history that conflicts with that view is to be discarded as "revisionist". Oh please.

      Well according to the leftist propagandist Goebbels this is actually a very good tactic. Especially if you have some thugs and guns behind it. There's nothing new about lefties using those fascist and communist tactics, of course, they were invented, and remain the near-exclusive domain, of the left.

    5. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Stalin liberated Poland??? Even hear of the Katyn Forest Massacre?

      Yeah, he was a great guy. How many tens of millions of people did he consign to death in the labor camps and gulags?

      You might want to check your knowledge of history.

    6. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 3, Informative

      You're the revisionist here. Google "molotov ribbentrop" and read up on a bit of history preceding it.

      Bullshit. The pact had to do with invasion of Poland in 1939 and mutual "non aggression" and was a ploy by Hitler to keep the Soviet Union away until he was ready to attack. It was signed in 1939 mere weeks before attack on Poland.

      You do know that nazi translates to socialist, right ? Why wouldn't they have been allies ?*

      Because, you revisionist idiot, the "Socialist" in NSDAP had as much to do with "communist" in the Soviet system as the "People's Republic" in the name had to do with democracy in North Korea or Saddam's Iraq. Stalin and Hitler were both authoritarian ass-hats who hated each other but Hitler was keen on big business, aristocracy and wealth while Stalin was using "communism" as his shtick for power and control. Subsequently the first people persecuted during the rise of Nazis to power in Germany were ... communists and amongst Hitler's most admiring supporters were names such as multi-millionaires like Krupp and Ford (Hitler even passed special laws just for his best super-rich buddies). The last remnants of any kind of "socialism" in the NSDAP were gotten rid of in the "night of the long knives" where the brown-shirt worker "rabble" of the SA was dealt with via bullets to their heads. And that was in 1934.

      But hey, what's a bit of lying when it's to demonize the US ?

      Speaking of lies, the words "US" are nowhere present in my comment to which you are replying. Projection much?

      I know of course, that you're intention is to demonize the right, even knowing full well that all genocides of the 20th century were committed by people who self-identified as "socialists",

      Yes, particularly the Emperor Hirohito (that well known socialist rabble rouser) and the US "lefties" who dropped some nukes in his backyard and burned a few hundred thousand people alive. Then there were of course those "socialists" who killed 3 million people in Vietnam via copious use of the B52s, napalm and M16s...

      In short, you are complete idiot and any discussion with you is not likely to lead anywhere.

    7. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      [citation needed]

    8. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ummm... would that be why the British were exporting tanks to the Soviet Union, shortly after the war broke out (and before the Americans joined in)?

      Or why the Germans decisively defeated the Red Army in their early tank battles, before Soviet industrial production got up to speed?

      Your version of history doesn't seem to make much sense, to me.

    9. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah sure, and you just (continue) playing (catholic) saints? Poor "victims"...
      http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/openrussia/russia-poland-and-the-history-wars

      And it's "Gulag(s)" and "Golodomor". Peace!

    10. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      GP's post is a very condensed retelling of the books of Victor Suvorov. As far as I know, most mainstream historians, both in Russia and in Western countries, consider most of it to be amateur revisionist history - but read the Wikipedia article (including the "Criticism" section), and judge for yourself.

    11. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You do know that nazi translates to socialist, right ?

      Yes, the full name of the party was National Socialist German Workers' Party. It should also be noted that it had been the name of the party before Hitler joined it, and that it had been much more leftist until he took leadership in it. Indeed, some veteran members of the party fought against Hitler's "move to the right", but the dissent was crushed very quickly.

      Why wouldn't they have been allies ?

      I dunno, maybe because Soviet Union was mostly Russian, and, according to Nazist racial theories, Russians (as well as other Slavic people) were considered subhumans, only fit to be slaves (after the majority would be exterminated to free up lands for German settlers)? Or, perhaps, because Hitler considered Bolshevism (and Marxism in general) a world domination plot by Jews, which claims were openly published in Nazi propaganda?

      Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a pure land grab done at a right chance. While we're at it, it's worth noting that a very large chunk of Polish lands that Soviet Union occupied as an aftermath of that pact were the same lands that Poland annexed from Soviet Russia during the 1920 Soviet-Polish war (hence why it was referred to as "liberation of Western Ukraine and Belarus" in Soviet propaganda, and there is a good deal of truth to that). Of course Soviet leaders couldn't miss the chance to regain territorial losses given the opportunity! But it doesn't mean that they shared the ideology ... Both Stalin and Hitler knew full well that they'd be at each other's throats soon enough - it was just a matter of who jumped first, and Stalin grossly misjudged the timing - but that war was inevitable was common knowledge for the Soviets from early 30s.

    12. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mods are smoking crack today. Parent should be modded troll. Not only is he factually wrong, he's rewriting history to make a partisan political attack based on modern day political lines.

      Nazi might be a contraction of Nationalist Socialist, however they were not socialists. They were Fascists. I know in modern American politics the two terms are treated as synonymous, however they were not synonyms in the mid 20th Century. Fascism is typically characterised as right wing if you're going to talk in terms of left vs right.

    13. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      Oh right the old "communism works, it's just never been implemented right" argument.

      Of course none of the socialist governments in history, none of them, have ever even approached socialism. None of these ever had anything to do with socialism ... And of course it's totally racist of me to assume that different socialists have anything to do with eachother.

      Riiiight ...

      Even if one believes that drivel, the catch is, of course, given that this socialism has never been implemented and all historical attempts to do so "devolved" into genocide, what exactly would stop the next attempt from doing ... exactly the same ?

      And the grand total of US "comitted" genocides according to you are ... hiroshima. That's a pretty sad deathcount for a genocide you know. I mean South-Sudanese muslims killed more Jews than that in their desert. And are you seriously going to pretend that the US had, like those muslims, no reason to attack hiroshima, except for "they're ugly little nips". Of course.

      Given the lies and total twisting and raping of history you have to constantly commit to even approach the point where your ideology isn't the genocidal monstruosity history's shown it to be ... don't you think that maybe there's something wrong with your ideology, not with history ?

    14. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the Nazis were such socialists that they killed every socialist, Communist, social democrat, or trade unionist they could find!

    15. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      Oh right the old "communism works, it's just never been implemented right" argument.

      If you keep burning so many strawmen your ass will catch on fire.

      At no point did I claim that "communism works". No political or economic system so far invented "works". They are all fucked up to one degree or another and prone to being corrupted, just in different ways. In practice their core differences are just a choice of who fucks whom.

      Of course none of the socialist governments in history, none of them, have ever even approached socialism. None of these ever had anything to do with socialism ... And of course it's totally racist of me to assume that different socialists have anything to do with eachother.

      You just keep blabbering to yourself. All I did was to point out that a lot of tyrants called themselves this or the other and most did not bother following any of the tenets of whatsoever ideology they pretended to be champions of. Subsequently "socialists" like Hitler turned out to be aristocrat-loving social climbers, "communists" like Stalin turned out to be state-capitalists, Pan-Arab nationalists like Saddam turned out just to be power-mad thieves, etc and so on.

      Also "socialist" itself has so many definitions that it can make one's head spin. Therefore the main reason Hitler is considered a "right wing" dictator (as opposed to Stalin who is tagged "left wing") is because of his choices of alliances. The Bolsheviks purged all aristocracy and business elites out of Russia and so Stalin followed the "workers/army" path to power - that was his only option. Hitler on the other hand jettisoned his "working class" allies early on in favour of the big business wealth and aristocracy. Hence the difference.

      Even if one believes that drivel, the catch is, of course, given that this socialism has never been implemented and all historical attempts to do so "devolved" into genocide, what exactly would stop the next attempt from doing ... exactly the same ?

      Nothing. That is why I am not a proponent of socialism or any other "-ism". Including "capitalism".

      And the grand total of US "comitted" genocides according to you are ... hiroshima. That's a pretty sad deathcount for a genocide you know. I mean South-Sudanese muslims killed more Jews than that in their desert. Of course.

      Right. The "but, but, but ... the other guy is just as bad!" ... err ... "argument".

      That is actually the main beef people have with the US, that it grand-stands and postures as a "land of the free", "defender of the oppressed" and "exporter of democratic principles" etc and so on ... and then proceeds to sell the "do as I say but don't do as I do" timeless canard. Add to it a copious amount of greed and arrogance, mix in some shameless foreign adventurism and subsequently it is a little surprise that The United States of Hypocrisy are such a lightning rod for hate. Incidentally utter supremacist, greedy hypocrisy is also a chief reason why Israel ("the only democracy in the Middle East! Ha ha!") is so popular a destination for home-made high explosives.

      And are you seriously going to pretend that the US had, like those muslims, no reason to attack hiroshima, except for "they're ugly little nips".

      There are always official "reasons" for every action actually based on "they're ugly little nips". At the time of the Hiroshima bombings the US population was encouraged by its government (via a mass media campaign) to think of the Japanese ("japs") as swarming masses of faceless vermin. Cartoons depicting Japanese in a way similar to those appearing in Nazi publications depicting Jews were commonplace. Following the war, the US occupation authorities confiscated all photographs of victims

    16. Re:Uh nope. You got your war history wrong. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      You do know that nazi translates to socialist, right ?

      You do know that the Nazis hated actual Socialists and Communists almost as much as Jews, right?

      You are so clueless I'm wondering if you are not actually a troll.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  18. Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1, Interesting

    First, I wish no one had the bomb, and the idea of a squirrelly state like Iran - or God forbid, North Korea - having one is enough to make me lose sleep. That said, under what moral or legal right do we get to say that they can't have one, other than that we don't like them? Is it our official policy that only our allies get nukes, and if so, do Russia and China have the same official policy with non-overlapping sets of allies?

    Again, I don't want Iran to have the bomb. I'm just curious about what doctrine or treaty gives us a say in the matter of whether a sovereign country gets to use a technology that we already have.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    1. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They, unlike others, will be MUCH more likely to USE "The Bomb" than many of the other players that have it- or "sell" it to someone that will (Never forget that this bunch "funds" the terrorist crowd...). That alone is enough to give anyone pause that understands what having "The Bomb" actually translates to.

    2. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why shouldn't a country have a right to choose who they do business with and under what circumstances? That's all a sanction really is.

    3. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      I grew up during the Cold War; I know what having "The Bomb" actually translates to. And to reiterate, I really don't want Iran to have it! But what gives us the right to tell them that they can't, any more than they have the right to tell us they can't?

      To clarify, I'm not trying to argue on their behalf. I'm genuinely curious here: I'd like to know what doctrine we're operating under that authorizes us to stop them.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    4. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by uncanny · · Score: 1

      So we [U.S.] gets to have as many as we want and threaten to use it on other countries (that's the whole purpose of having it) because we probably wont use it?

    5. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      That said, under what moral or legal right do we get to say that they can't have one, other than that we don't like them?

      oh, little things. like the fact that they're on record saying that WHEN they get the bomb, they plan/desire to wipe out all non-moslem nations.

      read the hadith. read it! I dare you to read it and not lose more sleep about our 'neighbors'.

      let me ask you: suppose you caught some guy trying to kill you and in his statement, he promises that he will never give up his quest to kill you. what do you do? do you just imprison him? for life?? or do you finally say 'this guy is incompatible with civilized life as we define it'?

      if you're a wimp (all western countries are 'pussified' these days) you'll defer the hard work for someone else or some other generation. if you have the guts, you'll simply kill the guy before he can kill you.

      we are wimps in the west and we will let them destroy us. over time, given the motivation they have, they have a clear goal. they only lack the power.

      give them the power and we'll regret it.

      but we are too blind to see. it will be our end, to be sure.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    6. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Power is the authorizing force. It's also the ruling force throughout all of history, now, and forever.

    7. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      what 'authorizes' us is what authorizes any human being.

      first rule of animal kingdom: might makes right. period! fits human beings to a tee just as well as 'animals'.

      all our laws are just layers on top of this, trying to make us look more 'evolved' than we really are. when it comes down to it, its still about 'might makes right'.

      what lets the US gov get away with all its warcrimes? no one can say no to the US! might makes right!

      why was the US allowed to steal private property from new london, CT land owners? might makes right! yes, that house you bought and own used to be yours but it belongs to pfizer now! might makes right!

      this is how the law of the jungle works and it works with mankind, too.

      this is what gives us the 'right' to interfere.

      its just that simple. and its always been this way. always; since life crawled out of the swamp.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    8. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are talking about killing every Iranian, otherwise you analogy does not make sense.

    9. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by Cwix · · Score: 1

      If Im not mistaken its the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_non_proliferation_treaty#Iran

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    10. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Thank you for being the first to actually answer my question. :-)

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    11. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by michael_cain · · Score: 1

      I'm just curious about what doctrine or treaty gives us a say in the matter of whether a sovereign country gets to use a technology that we already have.

      That would be the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. All recognized governments except North Korea, India, Pakistan, and Israel have agreed to play by those rules. The five permanent members of the UN Security Council are legally allowed weapons; nobody else is. The countries with weapons promise not to share their weapons technology; the countries without promise to allow IAEA inspection of all their nuclear facilities to ensure they aren't being used for weapons programs. India and Pakistan openly acknowledge that they have weapons. Israel is generally believed to have weapons, but officially will neither confirm nor deny that. South Africa developed weapons, but subsequently dismantled its weapons and signed the treaty. North Korea withdrew from the treaty after their weapons program was discovered.

      It's certainly possible to argue that the nuclear powers have been inconsistent in their treatment of countries that develop, or try to develop weapons. India seems to have gotten away with it with essentially no consequences; Pakistan nearly so; Israel has used its relationship with the US and the UK to get away with thumbing their nose at the UN for decades; South Africa was a special case, and appears to have dismantled their weapons when it became probable that there would be a radical change in government. North Korea is being starved to death slowly.

    12. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by Cwix · · Score: 1

      Glad I could help.

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    13. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "That said, under what moral or legal right do we get to say that they can't have one, other than that we don't like them?"

      'Rights' of enemies are legal constructs. Issues of power and national survival trump such trifles. Concern for the "rights" of ones mortal enemies is a bit misplaced, however delicious sweet martyrdom over abstract ideals may seem.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    14. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      As others mentioned, the NPT would be the legal reason. However at an international level, laws work a little differently. There is no international court you can take countries to and have them thrown in jail for breaking the law. International relations are all about negotiations, and countries can and do walk on treaties they've signed.

      To a large extent, it still is a situation of "might makes right." If the US says "No can haz," and the US's allies agree they aren't going to object/do anything in response, then the US can blow up said weapons because their military gives them the ability.

      It is just how things work at that level. If one of the big countries demands something, and especially if they all do, there's not a lot of choice because they can kick you ass if not. There's no world police, no international courthouse that a country can run to for justice. The UN is just a diplomatic entity with a bit of a puffed up sense of importance. As a practical matter they can't pass a resolution against the US because the US has permanent veto power (along with several other nations). International politics and laws are very different from the ones that we normal folks deal with.

      Basically either way you want to look at it the US has the ability to demand Iran not get nuclear weapons. Of course Iran can ignore that, and it is then up to the US (or others) to respond.

    15. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I was going to post similar but you captured it. The "Right" we have is self interest and the power to do something to protect that self interest.

      I'm not worried about Iran using a nuclear weapon. I'm worried about their government failing or having piss poor security and someone who _is_ crazy enough to use it getting ahold of one.

    16. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Concern for the "rights" of ones mortal enemies is a bit misplaced, however delicious sweet martyrdom over abstract ideals may seem.

      Don't in any way construe my question as concern for Iran's rights. By analogy, when Timothy McVeigh was on trial, I was utterly unsympathetic to the killer. However, I'd still wonder what exact charges we were trying to convict him of.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    17. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      It is probably important to mention that the NPT says, for non-nuclear members, that they won't try to develop nuclear tech in exchange for help with civilian programs, aka, exactly what this Russia thing is. (In fact, legally, the nuclear powers must sell them nuclear tech, priced near 'cost', including nuclear weapons for civilian purposes like construction.) That is the exchange.

      And it's even more important to mention the penalty for violating the treaty: Nothing. Nuclear powers are just supposed to withdraw their help, that's all.

      There is no possible interpretation of the NPT which would allow anyone to attack a non-nuclear power because they're were secretly developing nuclear weapons. All that can happen is, like South Africa, they get kicked out. (Although strangely we don't ever seem to do that to allies. As michael_cain mentioned below, Israel developed them in secret, and yet we still pretend they're a member in good standing and supply them with nuclear help.)

      As we're not supplying any nuclear tech to Iran, the only people who can 'punish' Iran would be the Russians, by taking all their nuclear material and going home.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    18. Re:Why can't Iran have The Bomb? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      The five permanent members of the UN Security Council are legally allowed weapons; nobody else is.

      Wrong.

      Any country is legally allowed to have nuclear weapons, in that is it not a crime under international law. (Well, actually, a few people like Noam Chomsky have argued that having nuclear weapons are, ipso facto, war crimes, as they designed to kill civilians, but that's neither here nor there, and would apply to everyone.)

      Non-nuclear signatories of the NPT say, if nuclear signatories help them develop civilian uses of nuclear power, they won't develop military uses.

      That's it. It's just a trade agreement, at least for the non-nuclear members. If someone violates it, they're in violation of a trade agreement, which isn't 'illegal' in any sense of the word. That just means the other parties should also stop following the treaty, aka, the nuclear members should stop supplying help with nuclear stuff.

      If the US and Canada make an agreement that Canada is not to mine for bauxite, in return for the US paying X dollars a year, and Canada secretly mines for bauxite, Canada has not broken any international law. The US should stop paying Canada, obviously, but that is not any sort of justification for an invasion or bombing of the bauxite mine.

      If the NPT Nuclear Powers and Iran make an agreement that Iran is not to make nukes, in return for said Nuclear Powers giving them uranium for use in a civilian nuclear program, and Iran secretly develops nukes, Iran has not broken any international law. Nuclear Powers should stop supplying uranium, obviously, but that is not any sort of justification for an invasion or bombing of the weapon site.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  19. Re:Russian Anti-air by MRe_nl · · Score: 1

    Russia has decided to withdraw its advanced missile defense system for export. Officials said the Kremlin has ordered the state-owned arms agency Rosoboronexport to end marketing of the S-400 air and missile defense system. They said Rosoboronexport was told that the S-400 would be deployed only in Russia until further notice.

    "Russia would consider exports only after meeting the requirements of its own armed forces," Rosoboronexport director Anatoly Isaikin said on Jan. 28. Over the last five years, Rosoboronexport has sought to sell the S-400 to a range of Middle East states, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the United Arab Emirates. So far, no export sales were reported.

    "There are a lot of preliminary talks," Isaikin said.

    The S-400 Triumph was designed to intercept airborne targets at up to 400 kilometers. Rosoboronexport has asserted that the system could destroy stealth aircraft, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles.

    In 2009, Rosoboronexport lobbied the Turkish government to purchase the S-400. Ankara, which appears to favor the U.S.-origin PAC-3, has conducted a $1 billion tender for the procurement of missile defense systems.

    Officials said the Russian military would require at least two years to exploit the potential of the S-400. The first S-400 battalion entered combat duty in the Moscow region in 2007.

    "There have been bugs in the system and this has prevented us from properly demonstrating the S-400 abroad," another official said.
    (/end copy paste)

    --
    "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
  20. Re:Russian Anti-air by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

    That's interesting. Do you have a link to a source for this? Not doubting you - interested in reading more. It's possible I've become a bit out of touch.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  21. Details, details... by sjbe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    they could seal the Strait of Hormuz which would majorly fuck up the US's oil supplies

    No it wouldn't. It would screw up PRICES but the US actually gets fairly little oil from the middle east. Only Saudi Arabia is in the top 5 exporters of oil to the US and I suspect they might take issue with Iran screwing up the oil market. Furthermore the US has ample military means of responding to such an overt threat. The US doesn't really want to tangle with Iran but Iran REALLY doesn't want to tangle with the US military.

    Therefore it is natural for the nation of Iraq to form close ties with Iran.

    Except they fought a long a bloody war and hate each other. Otherwise you might have a point.

    1. Re:Details, details... by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      What people forget about the US military, I think, is that it is the most effective military in history at destroying things. Never has there been a military that could do so much damage so quickly and in such a precise fashion. When something needs to be taken out, the US military can do so with an efficiency that makes it seem almost effortless. This is because the weapons used are by far the most advanced, the intelligence capabilities are simply amazing (like the ability of an AWACS to cross deck information directly to planes) and the training it top notch. Regular US troops would be elite forces in many militaries, never mind the actual US special forces.

      What the military can't do is occupy countries well. That is a completely different task. You need a whole lot of soldiers for that, many, many bodies on the ground. You also need either a much more police oriented training and mentality if you intend to be nice about it and occupy a generally friendly place or need to be much more ruthless about it if not. The US military is not at all well designed to occupy a country for any length of time.

      So people see the failure to pacify Iraq and Afghanistan and say "Oh, the US military is beyond capacity and can't handle things, there's nothing they can do now."

      Wrong.

      This is especially try with regards to naval action. A carrier battlegroup would make short work of any sort of Iranian naval blockade. Smashing whatever military was put in the way and then maintaining air superiority (especially with bases in Iraq) to keep anything new away would be easy, presuming this was what the US wanted. Destroying large additional parts of their military would also be easy. A few planes with smart bombs can wipe out a division of tanks if they aren't stopped.

      Invading and occupying Iran would be impossible.

      People need to understand that the reason the US is doing poorly in Iraq is not because the US military sucks or is out of resources, but because it is being asked to do something it is not good at, and something that is hard even then. China has the kind of military you need for occupying a country. Lots of troops, lots of tanks, a great mass to swarm the area with and not to many worries about being nice about things. However, the US military could destroy that same Chinese military, if it wanted to.

    2. Re:Details, details... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I don't know.. I was talking with my German grandmother about the US occupation of Germany after WWII. It seemed to be pretty effective. The big difference between then and now was the rules of engagement. Civilians had zero rights and soldiers didn't give a shit about cultural sensitivity. People were forced to submit. She told about how the first group of soldiers came to her farm. They said, are there any guns on the farm? If there were any guns, her father would be shot. They said no, they had gotten rid of them. They searched the entire house and the barns and found no guns. They made the father drink from the well to see that it wasn't poisoned. They made him stay in the basement for the night while they wife and daughters cooked for the soldiers. Then they moved on.

      I agree that the size of the invading force makes a huge difference but I don't think enough attention has been given to the effectiveness of the rules the soldiers are subjected to.

    3. Re:Details, details... by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      A carrier battlegroup would make short work of any sort of Iranian naval blockade

      I agree with your general summation of what the US military is good and bad at, as well as how far ahead of most other nations' militaries it is in terms of training and equipment. I think you don't understand how Iran could block the Strait of Hormuz however. For a start, we're not talking about Iranian ships sitting in the sea waiting for a US Carrier Group to sail up and shoot at them. Iran would mine the strait silly and launch missile attacks at anything that came close enough to Iran itself. If the US can't occupy and control the country, they certainly can't stop people bringing up missiles into range of commercial shipping. And mines are cheap and easy to deploy, hard to clear away, extremely hard to be certain you've cleared away, have progressed substantially from those spikey round balls you see in WWII photos and would take a lot longer for the US navy to clear up than for Iran to keep deploying. And oil tankers are cheap or quick to replace. I would guess that if Iran put four or five of them out of action, that alone would impact oil shipping significantly.

      And carrier groups are an obsolescence, kept because there're so many jobs and money invested in the concept. They're not worthless, don't get me wrong, but they are very vulnerable and very costly. But they're eggshells armed with hammers. I refer you to the USS Cole bombing for a tragic illustration. 1,000lbs of explosives and there goes a naval destroyer. Bottle up a carrier group in the Strait of Hormuz and watch what a large and powerful nation such as Iran can do compared to what a single assailant in a small boat did to the USS Cole. You'll naturally point out that the US has changed its rules of engagement and would shoot a small boat approaching today. But naturally, Iran's military wont be fielding a lone person in a small boat. There will be missiles, mines, possibly divers and of course many more boats than just one. The USAF could bomb Iran for weeks at staggering cost and not remove its capability to destroy ships (especially commercial ships) in the Strait of Hormuz.

      Anyway, the short answer is that if Iran tries to close the Strait of Hormuz, it has a very good chance of succeeding and the US government has already mortgaged its economy to the tune of $13trn, the US public's goodwill to the tune of however many bereaved families will never see their loved ones return from active duty now and they've certainly expended a lot of their political capital abroad with the Iraq invasion. The last thing the US government wants right now is to see oil prices go through the roof combined with having to take on a large, powerful and respected nation in war.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  22. Vela Incident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  23. Your assuming the Russians by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    don't want the Iranians to have the materials. Its not like they would not want a spike in oil prices, let alone a major competitor to them "occupied" with other concerns decreasing availability of oil.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  24. supporting terrorist!=supporting would be terroris by demiurg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is a big difference between supporting a terrorist organization and supporting somebody who would eventually become a terrorist, unless you claim to be able to predict the future for a few decades.

    In addition, Noam Chomsky is not exactly an unbiased source in a matters related to Israel

  25. And without the French by Nicolas+MONNET · · Score: 4, Insightful

    you'd be speaking proper English. blimey.

  26. They finance a terrorist organization by demiurg · · Score: 1

    They actively support Hezbollah, which is defined as a terrorist organization by many countries including US. I don't know about you, but I think that would is a better place when terrorists do not have an access to nuclear weapons.

    1. Re:They finance a terrorist organization by zero.kalvin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

    2. Re:They finance a terrorist organization by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

      Only in the realm of pure rhetoric.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    3. Re:They finance a terrorist organization by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      The jet, as well as being an ambassador of death for the enemies of humanity, has a main message of peace and friendship...

      -Ahmadinejad

      Uh-huh. Love, hugs and kisses. With death from above for you infidel dogs.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    4. Re:They finance a terrorist organization by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      > "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

      Only in the realm of pure rhetoric.

      No, GP is correct. If the Germans had won WWII the French Resistance would just be remembered as a bunch of terrorists. If the Apartheid system had continued, Nelson Mandela would just be another criminal terrorist. And so on.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  27. I call it resistance not terrorism by Nicolas+MONNET · · Score: 1

    because "terrorism" is what the Kommandantur was calling the resistance.

  28. Missing part of reloading by alexmin · · Score: 1

    So I guess this is the part of "reload" which comrade Putin skipped to mention to Obama when they talked about "reloading" relationship b/w US and Russia?

  29. Do you support U.S. government violence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It amazes me how many U.S. citizens are ignorant of the violent, corrupt activities of the U.S. government. The violence is always for the profit of a few.

    In the case of the U.S. government overthrowing the democratically elected Premier of Iran, Mohammad Mosaddeq, the CIA was allowed to act in secret: "The CIA, with help from British intelligence, planned, funded and implemented the operation." The purpose was to insure huge profits for British Petroleum (Yes, that BP), and U.S. oil companies.

    Quote from the Wikipedia article: "Overnight, the CIA became a central part of the American foreign policy apparatus, and covert action came to be regarded as a cheap and effective way to shape the course of world events"--a coup engineered by the CIA called Operation PBSUCCESS toppling the duly elected Guatemalan government of Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, which had nationalised farm land owned by the United Fruit Company, followed the next year."

    Military action so that U.S. investors can make more money has ever since been a central policy of the U.S. government. The families and friends of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney had oil and weapons investments, so the U.S. military was used to get control of the oil in Iraq. That violence has made U.S. citizens much poorer, through taxes and inflation.

    1. Re:Do you support U.S. government violence? by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      Don't feed the trolls.

    2. Re:Do you support U.S. government violence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Ensure" it is.

      But it is sad how many people in the U.S. think that the killing and destruction of property by the U.S. government is acceptable.

    3. Re:Do you support U.S. government violence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And as evidence, those rich people are still getting richer!!! It's irrefutable now!

  30. Resistance to what !? Democracy in Lebanon... by demiurg · · Score: 1

    Call it what you want, but nowadays Hezbollah resistance is against democracy in Lebanon (see Rafic Hariri assassination). For me this and killing other civilians in other countries is terrorism.

    1. Re:Resistance to what !? Democracy in Lebanon... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most probably Israel is behind the assasination of Rafic Hariri. Don't kid yourself with this one!

    2. Re:Resistance to what !? Democracy in Lebanon... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      "Terrorism" is not up for you to define or decide. Terrorism is the use of force, or the threat of force, against a people in order to coerce them. That's it. It doesn't matter if you're flying a flag while doing it, or pressing a button thousands of miles away, or skulking in the shadows burying IEDs. It's all terrorism if it's designed to scare people into compliance.

    3. Re:Resistance to what !? Democracy in Lebanon... by bsDaemon · · Score: 1

      You mean like how the government uses the police to coerce people into behaving themselves, or scaring them into not protesting, etc? You basically just defined government in all forms. Even the elected ones, who turn around and employ police to enforce the rules.

    4. Re:Resistance to what !? Democracy in Lebanon... by stenWolf · · Score: 1

      It's a matter of degrees, or scale. using the army with lethal weapon mandate to promote political agenda is terrorism. Using a police force to promote civic peace regardless of any particular political agenda is not terrorism.

  31. Let's Help by b4upoo · · Score: 1

    Iran wants nuclear materials in their reactor. We can quickly deliver some really hot nuclear materials right down the chimney of their reactor. One good bomb will certainly correct their thinking in a flash!

    1. Re: Let's Help by krapski · · Score: 1

      Yes, you can do that but you should consider one thing: your relations with the rest of the world, particularly with middle-eastern countries, is a two-way street. Do you recall what happened on September 11, 2001?

    2. Re: Let's Help by alexmin · · Score: 1

      If you imply ~3K ppl lost on 09/11 that is nothing comparing to number of ppl dying every year in auto crashes (37261 in 2008, per NHTSA.) That is 10 767 every month. Each individual chances of dying in terrorist attach are infinitesimal to non-existent.

      So, what was your point?

    3. Re: Let's Help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those stats you conveniently pulled up were from accidents. 9/11 was not an accident, and I hope you meant no disrespect to those victims. They were aiming for greater numbers as well, so it is not a question of numbers.

    4. Re: Let's Help by daveime · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is EXACTLY a question of numbers.

      You didn't like accidental stats, so try some deliberate premeditated ones courtesy of the Land of the Free & Home of the Brave (sic).

      45 murders per day in US = 16425 per year

      110600 Iraqis killed since 2003 = 13825 per year (approx.)

      1.4 to 2.2 million Vietnamese killed by US backed Pol Pot 1973 - 1978 = 360,000 per year (approx.)

      The US has NEVER cared about people, only about oil, power and control at the expense of every other poor bastard on earth.

    5. Re: Let's Help by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      The US has NEVER cared about people, only about oil, power and control at the expense of every other poor bastard on earth.

      So? What's your point? I'm sure you can point out all the other countries in the world who are run by selfless martyrs concerned primarily with the well being of not only their own people but those of everyone else in the world.

      The anti-Americanism around here truly gets tiresome after a while. The US is far from perfect, that's absolutely true. But we're slightly less far from perfect than almost any other country in the world.

      I think the part you fail to grasp is that people are fundamentally flawed, and of course any country formed by people is flawed.

    6. Re: Let's Help by krapski · · Score: 1

      I didn't have statistics of other mishaps in mind, but you do bring up some perspective. My point was just to show this jingoist that America doesn't have a monopoly on the use of violence in the world, There exists other powers that can bring the US to its knees.

    7. Re: Let's Help by alexmin · · Score: 1

      The roadkill stats just highlight that 09/11 hurt America as much as a mosquito biting grizzly in the nose. Maybe made him angry and trashing a lot of stuff around without good reason. But that's about it. Lesson to mosquitoes - do not bite the bear if you do not want your habitat destroyed.

    8. Re: Let's Help by daveime · · Score: 1

      So? What's your point? I'm sure you can point out all the other countries in the world who are run by selfless martyrs concerned primarily with the well being of not only their own people but those of everyone else in the world.

      No, but the likes of Iran and North Korea don't bullshit the issue ... they've made it very clear that they're batshit crazy.

      US on the other hand would like to pretend they're the worlds' benefactor and saviour ... when in fact their policies are not that dissimilar from any other country ... greed, self interest, control over their citizens.

      Look up 'sanctimonious' sometime ... I can't think of a more accurate description of the US.

      The anti-Americanism around here truly gets tiresome after a while.

      Then perhaps you should learn to mind your own fucking business, and stop interfering in the worlds affairs ? US is only 1/20th of the world's population, and sometimes the other 19/20ths have an opinion too ... maybe some of them post here ? If you don't like it, perhaps you can go to a solely US news site, where you can "whoop whoop, hotdog, fuckin-A, kickass" to your hearts content, amongst like-minded warmongers^Wpeople.

    9. Re: Let's Help by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      How quaint. For what it's worth, I agree in theory. We should mind our own business far more than we do.

      As for being 1/20th the world's population, sorry, not all people have equal power. If you don't like that, maybe you can take up your whining with the Universe, God, or whoever you hold responsible for what we call "reality".

    10. Re: Let's Help by krapski · · Score: 1

      Lesson to bear: there are more mosquitos than there are of you. If you want your species to survive, don't be stupid.

    11. Re: Let's Help by krapski · · Score: 1

      Pardon me, but what is "Americanism" in the first place??

      "But we're slightly less far from perfect than almost any other country in the world."

      Sweden, Norway, France, Canada, Finland, Germany, Australia, Japan, Italy, Chile, Argentina, New Zealand, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, The Netherlands and perhaps quite a few other countries are closer to perfect than you. Are you comparing yourself to countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia, two of your allies?

    12. Re: Let's Help by krapski · · Score: 1

      But for some reason, you decide to not use the power you have at your disposal---your nominal democracy. I would say you're about as indoctrinated as the average Chinese Joe, perhaps more so.

    13. Re: Let's Help by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Riiight. I'll up and move to Chile tomorrow, I'm sure my standard of living wouldn't change - amirite?

      Some of those countries are pretty nice, though it'll be amusing for me to watch Europe collapse under its own weight. How's that plummeting birth rate, population replacement by poor immigrants, and overwhelming social program burden working out for them?

    14. Re: Let's Help by krapski · · Score: 1

      Hehe, but those things you mention are peripheral issues, they have nothing to do with what I was responding to. You have not shown that these countries are worse (i.e. farther from perfect) than the US. Which is understandable...

  32. no no no by roman_mir · · Score: 0, Troll

    not the above comment is 'Flamebait' but USA as a country is a Flamebait.

  33. Revisionist much?! by linumax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If it was containment of Soviet expansion, why the hell did it start right after Mosaddeq nationalized Iranian Oil?

    1. Re:Revisionist much?! by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > If it was containment of Soviet expansion, why the hell did it start right after Mosaddeq nationalized Iranian Oil?

      That's a pretty darn communist move there actually.

      Although the threat probably goes in the other direction. This is why the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Revisionist much?! by carp3_noct3m · · Score: 1

      As a person who has been extensively studying "the situation" in the middle east, I can tell you that the Soviets had jack shit to do with our deposition of Mossadegh, and oil was literally 99.99% of the reason. Anyone who things otherwise simply has not even skimmed the histories (even ours admits this, but in as terse a manner as possible as to move on to the next part). I have come to the conclusion that the Iran coup is at the epicenter of the modern problems in the ME, and I am convinced this is why interventionalism(?) never has and more than likely never will work. We simply lack the foresight to predict what the long term results of our actions will be, due to the structure and timing of our government and politicians, and the decidedly lacking amount of education advisers have. What I mean by this, is, it is quite difficult to expect the president, or VP, or SoS to know every little detail of the middle east, or any other issue. They consult advisers, who then consult more advisers. It is these politically motivated short term advisers that wade in the shadows that have truly corrupted our constitutional republic. On top of all this, Iran really isn't that bad. Robert Baer (speaks farsi, feels more at home in the middle east, former spook) says that while yes in the 80's Iran was using attrition by proxy to achieve terrorist like goals, for example, the IJO (they killed and tortured his good friend Bill Buckley), was according to Baer, a front for Iran, not Hezbollah. And even after this he believes they have evolved into a strategic power. The crazy people like Ahmadinejad are relatively powerless 'talking heads', and we focus on them because the fulfill our blind idea of what we think Iran is (evil), but it really is far from this. My proposal, stop all sanctions, make a move that is an overwhelming gesture of friendship, and open up political, diplomatic, economic, and cultural ties with them. If they truly are our enemy, then by doing this we can have better access to the country for spying, will have better intel on their various programs, and will generally be in a more advantageous strategic position. If they are not, then hey we just made a new friend. But, if instead of them being our enemy, we are theirs (and there is a difference), this would never happen. Did you know that we, the USA, literally gave Iran the plans for a nuclear weapon? (with a small defect, but the Soviet spy said they would be able to find and fix it relatively easily). Did you know that by invading Iraq we empowered Iran? Did you know, there is not a single known instance of an Iranian suicide-bomber since the end of the Iran-Iraq War in 1988. Did you know Iran has a Jewish pop of 25,000? Did you now, the notorious Iranian security service, SAVAK, which employed torture routinely, was created under the guidance of the CIA and Israel in the 1950s? Did you know the NPT says "Nothing in this Treaty shall be interpreted as affecting the inalienable right of all the Parties to the Treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination.” Therefore, as long as Iran meets its responsibilities under the NPT and continues to allow inspections by the IAEA, (admittedly has acted questionably with inspections) it is acting within its rights. No, I bet you didn't know at least one of those things, now try asking a politician those things. I bet they don't have a clue. In short, if we don't end up revising our strategic plan (if we even have one) for relations with Iran, we are going to shoot ourselves in the foot in the long run. And for those of you who thing war with Iran is even an option, I can guarantee you one thing if that ever happens, and it is depression (not another recession, but full blow depression), and likely WW3...

      --
      "It's ok, I'm completely secure as long as my iron is off"
    3. Re:Revisionist much?! by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

      The US has made plenty of mistakes, no doubt. But the Islamic world has got to take more responsibility for themselves. They find it entirely too convenient to blame all their problems on the US. I'd love to see the Iranian Green Movement succeed, but what can we do? If we help them, we open them up to accusations of being US puppets. Our reputation is so poor they'd instantly lose much of their support. And help may make them dependent on us, which is the last thing we need. They must work things out themselves.

      How could the 1952 coup have succeeded unless Iran's democratic institutions and traditions were too feeble to resist? Imagine if the oil oligarchs tried a coup in the US. There'd be a few right wing nut jobs who'd love seeing Obama kidnapped or worse. But the coup couldn't succeed if that's all they did. They'd have to take out or suborn the VP, Speaker of the House, all the cabinet secretaries, half of Congress, and the judicial branch. And all that still wouldn't be enough. They'd need a big enough army to suppress the people. We'd never let them get away with such a blatant power grab. Even if it somehow worked, it'd be extremely costly. No, they have to use softer means. What I'm saying is that even though the coup was the doing of the US, it is Iranian backwardness and submissiveness that enabled it to succeed.

      You say the crazy Holocaust deniers that the Iranians are incomprehensibly presenting to the world as their leaders have no real power. Then why the charade? I can only think they're trying to provoke other nations into making a move against them that they can then use for domestic consumption. Risky. The nuclear efforts fit into this plan. If Israel or anyone bombs the plant, then they play that for all it's worth in convincing the Iranian people that the West is the author of all their ills. If the plant isn't stopped, then they will of course one day soon announce that they are now a nuclear armed power, and perhaps then they will engage in the sort of nuclear blackmail North Korea is so infamous for. They aren't doing it for the electricity generation, not with so many other, better ways to generate power, not least by burning oil which they have in such abundance.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    4. Re:Revisionist much?! by John+Bayko · · Score: 1

      It's true that Iran's government was quite susceptible to being overthrown. There's an irony that democratic governments in developing nations were easier for CIA operations to overthrow because they had more freedom to operate, and as a result most of what remained were dictatorships in areas the U.S foreign policy concentrated on (Latin America, Middle East). Iran's current "theocracy-supervised democracy" is designed specifically to prevent that sort of thing from happening again.

      The U.S itself is probably more vulnerable than you think. You have to realise that in all coups, the "front men" are presented (and seen as) patriots out to save the country. This is what made the presidency of George W. Bush so frightening to many people. Not only did it show the fragility of the inflexible U.S electoral process (Bush did not clearly win either election - in the end, both sides just settled for the results rather than risk escalating internal national hostility), it demonstrated that the same "patriots here to save the country" propaganda still works there, too. Though the Bush-fronted government took a wide liberty with the laws, they at least did not go as far as they could have. A more ruthless bunch could have gotten away with a lot more (and still might in the future).

    5. Re:Revisionist much?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.

      Actually, the reason was (Citation):

      The Afghan government, having secured a treaty in December 1978 that allowed them to call on Soviet forces, repeatedly requested the introduction of troops in Afghanistan in the spring and summer of 1979. [...] After a month, the Afghan requests were no longer for individual crews and subunits, but for regiments and larger units. [...] They repeated these requests and variants to these requests over the following months right up to December 1979.

      However, the Soviet government was in no hurry to grant them.

      One might also note:

      As stated by the former director of the Central Intelligence Agency and current US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, in his memoirs From the Shadows, the US intelligence services began to provide financial aid to the rebel factions in Afghanistan six months before the Soviet deployment.

  34. Do you listen to your own commentators? by Kupfernigk · · Score: 3, Interesting
    When it's the US, right-wingers bloviating this kind of stuff are "freem of speech" and heavily armed fruitcakes are "right to bear arms". Our PM suggests that the Pakistan Intelligence Agency is playing with both sides and that's a "gaffe", while US politicians say things every day that can be used to stir up most of the Middle East against them. We're supposed to know that when you write "nutjobs and mad mullahs" that's just free speech, but when they talk about the "Great Satan" that's a present danger.

    I personally think that Iran has a disgusting record on human rights, that it really needs to sort out its misogynistic patriarchy, and that the "Iranian Minister of Justice" is an oxymoron. But a state of the US is about to execute a woman with an IQ of 72 for allegedly plotting to kill her husband, and the chance of being executed for various offences in the US is directly linked to socioeconomic status and skin colour. Am I supposed to draw the same conclusions about the US?

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  35. Ah. Well there's the key by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    At $74 a barrel

    You see, they're not selling oil in dollars, and *that* is the problem.

    --
    Deleted
  36. Iran is *not* selling oil in US dollars by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    That's what they did.

    If it spreads, it will destroy the US dollar as the international reserve currency, cause a huge amount of inflation in the US and destroy the US as the world superpower.

     

    --
    Deleted
  37. Coincidence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Iran Starts Nuclear Power Facility | Iran Unveils New Unmanned Long Range Bomber

  38. isn't the translation "regime" rather than country by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    They keep threatening to wipe an entire country off the map.

    I thought they were effectively copying the USA foreign policies and going for "regime change".

    e.g.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm
     

    --
    Deleted
  39. All this is a build up by achyuta · · Score: 1

    It's going to a take a few years of US complaining about Iran & some UN resolutions to sanction Iran before there is a war.

    Though the real trigger will be when the US economy is in doldrums and needs to be turned around. Nothing like war to stimulate it - and, hey, we've already set up a candidate for the war for a decade now with propaganda that demonizes Iran and the US "patience for years" for a "diplomatic solution".

    (I am not supporting Iran or against the US in anyway. This post is more about how these things work)

  40. REMAIN CALMER by copponex · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The nation that just invaded two of your neighbors is threatening to invade. But don't try to come up with any sneaky way to defend yourself. Just remain calm while the Freedom Police check you for anything they don't approve of.

    I know if the Russians and Iran invaded Mexico and Canada, we'd just sit quietly and hope for the best. Right?

  41. Re:Russian Anti-air by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.geostrategy-direct.com/geostrategy-direct/

    But, for a large part, it's subscription only.

  42. Re:Russian Anti-air by Reservoir+Penguin · · Score: 1

    The S-300 system even in it's original non-upgraded from would be enough to shift the balance of an air war with Israel.

    --
    US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
  43. Some perspective people. by Reservoir+Penguin · · Score: 1

    Let's just put things in perspective: 1) The reactor is about is the worst suited for producing weapons grade radioactive materials. The fuel cycle is observed not just by the Russians but by the IAAE inspectors. 2) Iran is not run by warmongering crazy mullahs. It is a semi-democratic country with a complex system of checks and balances including the Supreme Leader, the President, the elected Assembly of Experts that has the power to remove the SL, the Parliament, the Islamic judiciary, the powerful Revolutionary Guard. If anything, many experts believe that the power balance has shifted from the religious authorities to the Revolutionary Guard controlled military-industrisl complex who Ahmadinejad represents. Some have gone as far as saying that the SL has not power and is a puppet of Ahmadinejad. 3) Iran is not going to attack anyone first, yet alone Israel. It's strategic policy is based on deterrence. Ahmadinejad's is a populist and his fiery speeches are generally aimed at the internal audience, the conservative majority in the countryside/provincial cities outside of the liberal Northern Tehran. Israel plays dumb when it pretends that his populist rhetoric represents the consensus of the Iranian power elites.

    --
    US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
    1. Re:Some perspective people. by Jubedgy · · Score: 1

      I haven't heard anyone complaining about Iran being run by war-mongering mullah's lately...I have heard people complaining of Iran being run by war-mongering Ahmadinejad. Regardless of who his rhetoric is meant for, it is heard by the outside world and most of us as someone who speaks for Iran. If you could, please explain how violently putting down protesters is indicative of a democratic regime with checks and balances...because to me (and I am not Israeli nor do I have any connection to that country at all), it smacks of a power-hungry regime that will do anything to remain in power.

      As for those observing the fuel cycle...what if Iran removes itself as a signatory of the non-proliferation treaty and removes the Russian and UN observers in a North Korean-esque move?

      --
      Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis hebes
  44. Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    And Iran only threatened to wipe The West off the map, starting with Israel, with any means at their disposal.

    No, they didn't. They said nothing of the sort.

    They said that the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time.

    This is a poetic way of expressing their wish that the government of Israel, as it is today, would become a thing of the past.

    Regardless of what I think of the geopolitics of the Middle East, it bugs me that people repeat some lies over and over again. Although Göbbels said that a lie repeated enough times becomes the truth, let's try to stick to the REAL facts in this matter.

    OK?

  45. Re:Russian Anti-air by MRe_nl · · Score: 1

    In sufficient numbers, with well-trained operators, yes. Until the F 35 appears.
    The S 400 would "threaten" the American air force more than the IAF at the moment.

    --
    "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
  46. Hezbollah was democratically elected by Nicolas+MONNET · · Score: 1

    From my European point of view, they're not any crazier than the evangelicals who supported Bush and who support Zionism.

    1. Re:Hezbollah was democratically elected by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Evangelicals are a vocal minority in the US, in Iran they are the vocal majority; Imagine Bush without political restraints.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    2. Re:Hezbollah was democratically elected by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      OK, putting aside your remarks on evangelicals (since I don't even know any)...

      Hizballah was originally formed to fight the Israeli occupation of Lebanon. Since 2000, Israel hasn't occupied a square inch of Lebanon, and yet Hizballah continues trying to kill every Israeli and every Jew they can. Their leader gives antisemitic speeches. And, finally, they've tried to blame Israel for the assassination of the Lebanese head of state Rafiq Hariri, which in fact was aided by men from.... Hizballah! They're a fascist paramilitary that's trying to take over Lebanon. All equivalencies between this and Zionism (read: "nationalism for Jews") are simply false.

      As to your "European point of view", is this the same European point of view under which the Soviet Union were good people, and Slobodan Milosevic as well?

  47. Why the russians sould work for the USA? by Kyusaku+Natsume · · Score: 1

    Every truly independent nation state works in their own best interest. That's a given. I don't understand why you got a insightful mod. Russia is not Colombia or Mexico. For the Iranians case, getting into a war of choice against the west would mean the end of the Iranian regime. That would be an unlikely case of extreme collective stupidity. Your mention of North Korea reinforces the point of why the Iranians "would" want nuclear weapons, nothing more.

    This plant produces plutonium-240 useless for weapons so the only contentious point remaining in Iran's nuclear program is their enrichment facilities.

    --
    Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
  48. Iran and long-term strategy by michael_cain · · Score: 1
    I have to admit, at least on the days when I believe in conspiracy theories, that if I were Iran, I would seriously want at least a home-grown commercial nuclear industry, and probably a bomb.
    • There are far better things that I could do with my oil and gas than burn it to make electricity. Among others, they're feedstock for higher-value goods. I'd rather sell plastics and fertilizer than oil and NG.
    • Given the last 60 years of regional history, I have good reason not to trust some of the countries that could provide me with reactor fuel. Fabricating my own might be more expensive, but it also means I don't have to trust them to continue deliveries.
    • Given some of the possible future scenarios, I don't want to give some of the other countries any leverage. If I'm going to try to gauge Japan and South Korea on the price of oil and natural gas, I don't want them to have the counter-threat of withholding fuel for my Japanese or Korean reactors.
    • I know I'm going to be competing with a nuke-armed NG producer (Russia) who could disrupt some of my delivery systems. I'm going to be negotiating sales to at least a couple of nuke-armed customers (India and China, plus possibly France and the UK).
    • I know Israel has nukes. If the Arabs decide to make another try at wiping out Israel, I want the Israelis to think at least twice before tossing any of those nukes at me.

    Some of those require a considerable degree of paranoia. OTOH, as I mentioned, history gives Iran multiple reasons to be paranoid.

  49. Simple mathematics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    r = kilograms of radioactive material available to Iran
    b = number of people in the Iranian regime who believe that low cut blouses cause earthquakes
    m = monetary value of equipment and explosives supplied during the past 40 years to groups who use it to build IEDs and suicide bomb vests

    d = r x b x m

    d = percent increase in the odds that a dirty bomb (not a fission or fusion weapon) will be detonated in Israel or the US sometime in the next 5 years

    Feel free to prove, disprove, or edit as necessary.

    1. Re:Simple mathematics by daveime · · Score: 2, Funny

      1 kilogram, 1 Iranian Blouse=Earthquake Believer, 100 dollars. (Permute as desired).

      OMG, it's 100% certain we're gonna get nuked by the crazy Persians !

      Proof or disproof either way would have to wait 5 years, editing not really necessary as nothing would make your formula any more realistic.

    2. Re:Simple mathematics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFF - Your values produce a 100% increase in the odds, not a 100% chance. If the initial odds were 2 to 1, they become 4 to 1.

      And who said anything about Persians?

    3. Re:Simple mathematics by daveime · · Score: 1

      And if the odds were more than 50.00%, doubling them would make a number over 100.00% ... as you didn't actually STATE any beginning odds, you can't blame me for pulling a number out of my ass ... it's exactly the same procedure as the Israelis / US do anyway.

      And perhaps you should retake History ... Iran IS Persia !!!

  50. Analysis by Rehnberg · · Score: 1
  51. Re:Russian Anti-air by Reservoir+Penguin · · Score: 1

    Of course, but I think it's pretty clear that Obama will not be known as the one who started a major conflict in the ME hence American Air Force is largely irrelevant.

    --
    US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
  52. My fears have nothing todo with proliferation... by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 1

    This reactor has been built over how many years with how many different people involved?
    I'm sure has time has gone on the plan has been amended and amended and amended... I'm fearful that this reactor is a Chernobyl just waiting to happen.

    --
    Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
  53. No proof N Korea has bomb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Remember what North Korea has now after a few years of that? Ah, yes, The Bomb."

    They probably don't. Or more precisely, what they have a bomb that has failed twice. And probably not enough plutonium to make another.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6040494.stm

    I enjoy watching Iran piss away its fortune on atomic bombs. I feel certain it will lead to the ultimate destruction of the country. I don't wish it on them, the Iranian people are wonderful, but their leaders are leading them down a path of destruction. Obama is right to ignore them, they're wiping themselves out.

  54. While I don't disagree about US spending by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Have you ever stopped to consider that the reason that Canada gets along so well without much of a military is because of the US?

    Canada and the US are very, very friendly. The countries get along great diplomatically and there's no need to guard the border (I don't mean that there aren't controls for crossing, I mean there's no watching for each other pulling any military tricks). It is well understood that because the US likes Canada, and because any invasion of Canada could be a precursor to an invasion of the US that the US will defend Canada with its full might and fury.

    Well, that leads to a situation of Canada not having to worry about its own defense very much. Nobody will be invading Canada because the US will smash them. So they don't need to have much of a military force. They more or less have a small amount of highly trained people to do special operations type stuff, as well as other basic needs like coastal security and so on.

    Were the US not there, they might well need a larger military.

    The situation with militaries isn't as simple as it might appear. Anyone who says "Oh needing a military is a thing of the past, big countries don't go to war anymore," has their head in the sand. Having a strong defense is still a real concern.

    That all said, I do think the US could draw down a lot. I don't think that so much of the world should get to have free defense courtesy of the US tax payer. You find that a good number of countries in Europe and Asia get away with a lot less defense than they might otherwise need because the US maintains large bases there. I say let's not do that, let's start slowly drawing those down.

    1. Re:While I don't disagree about US spending by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I mean there's no watching for each other pulling any military tricks

      Yeah, it's all in the open now. ~

  55. Which justifies killing their opponents !? by demiurg · · Score: 1

    How exactly the fact that they were democratically elected justifies killing their political opponents and civilians of another country !?

    If you see no difference between "crazy" evangelicals and people who fire rockets at civilians I see no reason to continue this discussion with you.

    1. Re:Which justifies killing their opponents !? by Nicolas+MONNET · · Score: 1

      Get lost, you evangelicals are accomplices in killing thousand times more. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and all of South America during the 70s and 80s, all enabled by you US millenarist cultist reichwingers. How you can look down on Muslims while you have so many rapture-enabled evangelicals on your doorstep is beyond me.

  56. Telling these nutbags ... by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

    That these women-stoning gay-killing "victims" have any motives other than living in total harmony with gaia is like telling a democrat chicago politician that he earns enough money and doesn't need bribes.

    Incidentally Iran unveiled it's "ambassador of death" today. Isn't that a coincidence ? Well, actually it might potentially even be a coincidence. Still, it says something about them ...

    But of course, don't let me appear racist. Hereby I testify :
    1) there are no gays in Iran
    2) islam does not call for stoning, nor does any contemporary muslim call for stoning and execution for gays. And it most certainly is not the case that all islamic scholars, of all 4 schools agree on the stoning and killing
    3) if any of these statements appear to have anything to do with religion, that's a mistaken impression. I certainly do not claim that either on seeks to kill, or one clearly ignores allah's wishes, which obviously means you're not a muslim. This isn't true, of course, but it would be doubly true if all contemporary religious schools were to agree that this is so. But of course it's not true.
    4) all these guys want is peace and harmony for all mankind in gaia. Amen.
    5) that peace they want obviously makes forcing Jews to drop their defenses the good and moral thing to do, after all, anything else would be racist, now wouldn't it

    1. Re:Telling these nutbags ... by Ihmhi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm reading an interesting book called "Why I Am Not A Muslim" by Ibn Warraq. It's a very heady, lengthy read; it's almost like a series of essays by the same author. (I'm about 2/3 through on this read, and there's already been almost 600 footnotes.)

      In his book, he basically detailed a turning point in Muslim culture that was the ramp up to their version of the Enlightenment. The problem is that they decided to go the opposite way and crack down on "dangerous" schools of thought (primarily from Greece, like logic and philosophy) and end up essentially the same several hundred years later.

      Now we have the intrinsic problem of a society that is (in many place) at best 50-100 years behind the modern world, but with many modern conveniences and tools at their disposal. The common problem of too many unhappy people (mostly due to lack of things like food, clean water, money, etc. - the usual) along with cheap AK-47s and RPGs does not do a whole lot to help.

      Frankly, the best thing we could do in my opinion is push for greater civil rights through economic and diplomatic sanctions. Moreover, we can work to improve the infrastructure in countries that don't like us, but from a third party that is generally regarded as friendly to most of the Muslim world (United Arab Emirates, Turkey, etc.) It would be difficult but the only way there is ever going to be peace in the region is if there is clean water, reliable power and telecommunications, and a stable economy. Until that comes most of the Middle East is going to be stuck in the 1900s.

    2. Re:Telling these nutbags ... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      It would be difficult but the only way there is ever going to be peace in the region is if there is clean water, reliable power and telecommunications, and a stable economy. Until that comes most of the Middle East is going to be stuck in the 1900s.

      Unfortunately our economies are slowly but surely crumbling. We have a bad case of fundamentalism infecting our societies, free-market fundamentalism rather than outright religion but fundamentalism nonetheless. Add the fact that the richest and most powerful have more to gain from stuffing the world back to Dark Ages and feudalism than helping it towards democracy, and things don't look good.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  57. Or maybe just annexed part of Georgia ? by demiurg · · Score: 1

    Defended a massacre... or maybe just annexed that part of Georgia ? And nobody said a word...

  58. Re:that's cool by kthreadd · · Score: 1

    There are no "cool guys" when it comes no nuclear weapons. Not Iran, not North Korea, not Russia, not the USA.

  59. sigh of relief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    as soon as I read this headline I knew that neither Obama, nor the next or any other administration will attack Iran. It was an open question until today.

  60. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plantm every by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

    Absolutely. The US averages one major war every 20 years. That accounts for over 50% of all wars in the last 200 years.

    In the last two centuries, the US has been there in 90% of all insurrections, coup d'etats and minning assassinations.

    The deal is, that's where the US gets its power from. The US has no heavy industry, agriculture, mining, or any other significant export. Their only exports are shitty movies and bullets.

    How is it then that such a country is the most powerful and rich in the world? Well, first, it was slavery. Then, slavery was outsourced. The US needs to keep its nose in other country's affairs to assure the availability of unstable political and social situations, that produce poverty (cheap labor), wars, and insurrections. In order to support its current position, the US needs half of the world in poverty (provides cheap labor), 10% of the world in war (allows the politicians to move the money earned towards their friends at Lockheed Martin and other companies), and another 10% in unstable situations (civil war) (in order to fix the oil prices).

    That's roughly their strategy, and it'll continue to be that way for a long time. Voting changes nothing.

    --
    WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
  61. Re:isn't the translation "regime" rather than coun by stdarg · · Score: 1

    Exactly! So who do you want in charge of regime change? Iran?

  62. Re:that's cool by krapski · · Score: 1

    how about Einstein, Heisenberg or Bohr?

  63. OMG I'm so shocked. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh.. wait. No I'm not. I've shit more shocking things.

    I love when people try to shock. Like on Xbox where they keep yelling n**ger over and over, or say other dreadfully boring things in an effort to shock and get attention.

    Please, quit posting boring things. I've seen you post this same comment over and over.

    I guess it would have been smarter of me to post, all outraged and shit, "Oh my god, fuck you - you want our troops to die, you suck I'm so angry how dare you say that". Then you would have gotten the attention you crave and maybe stopped boring me with your boring posts.

    1. Re:OMG I'm so shocked. by krapski · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      yes, I'm very disappointed, you should be shocked.

  64. Re:My fears have nothing todo with proliferation.. by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

    It's a light water reactor. So Chernobyl can't happen.

  65. Re:Iran Opens Its First Nuclear Power Plantm every by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1

    "The deal is, that's where the US gets its power from. The US has no heavy industry, agriculture, mining, or any other significant export."

    I think you mean "had." The US currently has all of those things.

  66. Let's see-Forscore and several removals ago. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    This is what happens when you let other people think for you. Iran's foreign policy is by no means sweet and innocent. But then again neither is US foreign policy. Remember the US doesn't just talk about removing regimes, it actually does it (or tries to). Grenada, Liberia, Panama, Haiti, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq... and these are the obvious ones - the ones we actually know about.

    American Indians, Japanese (Internment camps), Blacks, Invaded Canada, Annexed Texas from Mexico, etc. Yes the protestant white America has done much.

  67. 1000 megawatts ... by recrudescence · · Score: 1

    ... that's still 210 megawatts short of the 1.21 JIGOWATTS [sic] required for time travel

  68. erratum by suik · · Score: 1

    "amid international fears that Iran will use the facility to make nuclear weapons" ... should be: ... amid american/israeli fears that Iran will use the facility to make nuclear weapons.

    1. Re:erratum by couchslug · · Score: 1

      ""amid international fears that Iran will use the facility to make nuclear weapons" ... should be: ... amid american/israeli fears that Iran will use the facility to make nuclear weapons."

      The "international" bit comes when the weapons and/or gear to make them go on sale. Pakistan ring any bells?

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  69. Candu "Derivatives" by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    I learned off Wiki this year that India's nukes basically came from Canada back in the day. Apparently we built them a whole bunch of Candu reactors. They were not "supposed" to be used to produce weapon material. India modified them so the would. When Canada found out, they pulled out of India. India continued to make modified Candu reactors now called "Candu Derivative Reactors" as they are modified design of the Candu that was supplied to them. India is now a nuclear power. Once the cat is out of the bag it is too late. I believe they use it them to produce tritium or something like that. I believe the originals are still running, but there are about 3 or 4 times as many derivative reactors now.

    Anyway given history of proliferation, and the kind of statements that Iran has said publicly, I think it is pretty irresponsible of Russia to assist Iran possibly in its nuke program. I think Iran is one of the last countries that should get nukes. If I was a citizen, I would be getting more and more nervous the closer they get. If it is ever found that they have nukes, I think the reaction, particularly by the USA would be "very bad".

  70. Re:isn't the translation "regime" rather than coun by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

    No, actually, when they say "regime change" they mean changing "ethnically Jewish country" to "religiously Muslim country". Try getting your information from something other than a conspiracy website.

  71. Israel's obviously the bad guy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if Israel's lies and brainwashing will eventually succeed, and Iran will be attacked?
    No wonder, if they actually are developing nuclear weapons, i mean fuck, i would too, if i were in their position.