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WikiLeaks Calls For Assange To Step Down
Stoobalou writes "A member of Iceland's parliament and prominent organizer for whistle-blowing website WikiLeaks has turned on the site's spokesman, Julian Assange, urging him to step down over rape allegations made against him in Sweden. Birgitta Jonsdottir told news site The Daily Beast that she did not believe Assange's repeated assertion that the allegations of rape and molestation made against him were part of a US-backed smear campaign to distract attention from documents posted on the site laying bare US involvement in the war in Afghanistan and further promised revelations."
When somebody is doing something that is not wrong, but offends, they attack him, till everybody turns against him. Or possibly her. Just ask the lady from Georgia.
Now I can recognize how terrible it is to pretend that the king can do no wrong, or to let the king get away with all sorts of crap, but it is equally wrong from the other way, to take even the slightest, flimsiest excuse and use it to tear down a person in authority.
Tough choice.
The blind faith many people seem to put in Assange confuses the hell out of me. He pissed off the United States, so any and all allegations against him are automatically baseless? By those standards, all anti-US terrorists in US history are automatically innocent.
Well, Birgitta Jonsdottir hates kittens. It's true because I made the allegation. She should step down.
For the record, Jonsdottir is not part of WikiLeaks but of IMMI. So the title is wrong.
They've already said they've withdrawn the charge of rape http://www.thelocal.se/28504/20100821, and are now only pursuing him for the molestation charge -- which in and of itself is a charged statement. The sex was said to be consensual and that the molestation charge hinges on weather or not knew the condom broke during intercourse and if it was intentional or not.
So, why does /. continue to perpetuate the assertion that he's being persued with a 'rape' charge?
Or is it more of a revenge thing?
There are many who think it's an "in Assange's head" thing.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
There is a bit of a problem with not enough information about this case, so I'll try to summary what I know so far.
1: Two women who had sex with Assange went to the police and were adviced to file charges of rape ...
2: A prosecutor releases the accusations publicly to the press (not a common thing here in Sweden afaik)
3: The case is withdrawn because they realize Assange cannot be nailed for rape. The remaining charge is something akin to sexual harassment.
4: The rape charges are revived
5:
6: Profit?
No seriously I'm starting to wonder what the fuck is up with the swedish legal system.
The blind faith many people seem to put in Assange confuses the hell out of me. He pissed off the United States, so any and all allegations against him are automatically baseless? By those standards, all anti-US terrorists in US history are automatically innocent.
Its not blind faith, it just shows how little we all seem to trust the US when so many of us are quick to assume that a rape allegation against an individual the US would clearly like to silence is an attempt to smear their reputation.
By those standards, all anti-US terrorists in US history are automatically innocent.
You mean until proven guilty? Or do you think anyone the US labels as an enemy should be considered automatically guilty and get locked away indefinitely with no habeas corpus rights?
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How about innocent until proven guilty? And yes, that would apply to anti-US terrorists as well (even though they never get a trial). Furthermore, given that Assange has trouble with the US military machine, perhaps a more careful examination process would be in order before shouting denigrations to the media. The whole case has been handled rather poorly by the swedish justice system, when it was clear from the start that a modicum of tact would be required to avoid this media shitstorm.
I know civics education in this country is complete shit, but I do seem to recall something about how we afford people the presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty in a court of law. For all we know, this woman is behind manufacturing accusations against Assange so that she can step in.
I'm not accusing her of doing so. I'm simply saying that she could just as well be using it as a tool for manipulation. The guy could be a complete jack-ass for all I know. I also know that it has no impact on the value of the service he started and the information that he has revealed through it.Dismantling him doesn't invalidate that knowledge.
It is sad that mere accusations are enough to demand that people step down from just about anything. His life is going to be forever altered for the simple fact that he was accused, even if there ends up being no basis for it. Even if it turns out that it was just the manufactured story of a ruthless reporter and a pissed off chick.
Considering the stories we hear all the time these days about how such accusations are often entirely fictional -- such as "I ditched a night out with my friends for drinks with this guy I met, so to deal with their scrutiny over me ditching them, I invented a story of rape and got a man jailed for a crime he was innocent of", I am not willing to ever assume guilt whatsoever.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206325/Woman-rape-allegation-faces-jail.html
http://gothamist.com/2010/02/24/woman_who_lied_about_rape_sentenced.php
Just because you may hate anyone who questions the United States of Amuricah, because they're freedom-hating assholes who want our heroic baby-rescuing, never-in-the-wrong troops to die . . . doesn't mean they're also guilty of rape or any crime.
Or how often wacky chicks just accuse famous people for their own narcissistic reasons.
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Or how people with an inflated sense of self worth think they can do whatever they please with no consequences.
It is sad that mere accusations are enough to demand that people step down from just about anything. His life is going to be forever altered for the simple fact that he was accused, even if there ends up being no basis for it. Even if it turns out that it was just the manufactured story of a ruthless reporter and a pissed off chick.
It has been mentioned that he has been dragging wikileaks into this personal situation, for example using the wikileaks twitter feed to promote the idea that he is innocent and the US is running a smear campaign. I do not think he would be asked to step down, especially so publicly, if he had kept his personal life and wikileaks separate.
5 more words: 2 more words: scared off
You are right, where the hell is my pitchfork? I mean, this is RAPE we are talking about, you don't need a trial for that!
And the timing of these allegations, no coincidence there, I agree! The CIA would never run a smear campaign!
Considering the fact that "wikileaks founder Assange accused of rape" made headline news across the bloody planet...did he really have a choice?
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
So she's saying that Assange should temporarily step aside as spokesman for Wikileaks until the facts of the case have been sorted out. Not quite the earth-shattering denunciation the media has hyped, huh? Of course, I don't see how she couldn't anticipate this kind of reaction from all of Wikileaks detractors in the media. That was just naive.
Other Wikileaks people are urging him to separate this personal situation from Wikileaks. Really? Why? So far, I haven't seen any evidence and so all I know is that I have heard there is a rape and a case of molestation against him. I also know that the charges were initially dropped and I can only assume it was because the evidence is shaky if non-existent.
It seems to me that this has all come about because he is in charge of Wikileaks. If he were to go quiet and let someone else run the show, who knows what they will do? I'm not sure it is in his best interests to disconnect himself from Wikileaks.
Let's see some evidence. Let's get some details. If he was a "nobody" that no one has ever heard of and had nothing to fear from world governments, that would be one thing. But this guy is an enemy to some very powerful individuals and organizations. Remaining in the spotlight is all he has to defend himself at the moment. Asking him to give up his post now would be a problem.
As as someone who is an American I agree 100%.
In my lifetime I've yet to see a government in this country I'd trust as far as I could throw the Lincoln Memorial (with Glenn Beck's fat, stupid ass crying on the steps to weigh it down even more). Most of our elected officials seem to be concerned with nothing more than protecting their own images, enriching the people who they're getting bri... 'campaign donations' from and passing a bunch of useless bullshit to keep the ignorant masses behind them.
That's not to say Assange didn't do something, just that there it's entirely within reason that this is a smear campaign.
"...we afford people the presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty in a court of law..."
That's a pretty widely misunderstood principle though. It defines an epistemic stance that the judge and jury are supposed to adopt. They are supposed to disregard, or screen off, any beliefs they had regarding the guilt or innocence of the accused prior to the trial and consider only the evidence given in the trial. Obviously this doesn't apply to the prosecution, witnesses, or complainant though because they are all expected to act according to their sincerely held beliefs either way.
As for the media and public at large, the legal principle of presumption of innocence just doesn't apply. You could argue that there should also be a general social norm requiring that people unconnected with the case presume innocence, but it's hard to see why that should be the case.
Unfortunately this very idea was the core modus operandi of the Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union both.
It was also supposed to be the differentiating factor between them and the so-called "principled democracies", USA chief amongst them.
So much for all the propaganda and bullshit, eh?
It could be a good opportunity for wikiLeaks to show they are truly committed to posting all information in the public interest by posting the police reports and other documents relating to the case. Redact the potential victims names, etc, and put up something that may be damaging to yourself would really show commitment to the ideals you've espoused, IMHO.
How is it that a politician is reviewing the evidence in an ongoing police case and furthermore, commenting on it in public? In most civilized countries that would be cause for an investigation into the police, and the firing of the prosecutor for not running a tight ship with a clear separation between the judiciary and the executive brances.
This doesn't pass the "smell test." Not one bit.
Did Assange do anything wrong? I don't know - but this sort of tampering by politicians makes it sure seem like someone, somewhere, *is* out to get him.
Everything Ive read said the charge is because the woman claimed he broke the condom on purpose.
That is not rape.. that is her being too dry, an expired condom, or a non latex condom.
Ive used many condoms in my day, I'm not even sure how one would "break" the condom on purpose while its in use. I suppose its possible that the condom was tampered with prior to being used but that kinda implies that he intended to break before hand.
I think the women found out about each other.. found they wern't exclusive, and decided to muck things up as best as possible.
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
It's not that 'everybody' thinks the wikileaks case *IS* some kind of CIA attack, just that the CIA has done a LOT, LOT worse to people who the government have decided are enemies of the US state and its interests. Such acts by the CIA are credible. The idea that the US state is above smearing its enemies is ludicrous. That means it is *POSSIBLE* that this is a case of character assasination and black propaganda - not that it's PROBABLE - just POSSIBLE.
It's also *possible* that the women are behaving for any number of ignorant, deluded, malicious or screwed up reasons, as it is that Mr. Assange did the things he's said to have done. But then, if this were a smear, that's exactly what they'd like you to think! ;)
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It is sad that mere accusations are enough to demand that people step down from just about anything. His life is going to be forever altered for the simple fact that he was accused, even if there ends up being no basis for it. Even if it turns out that it was just the manufactured story of a ruthless reporter and a pissed off chick.
It has been mentioned that he has been dragging wikileaks into this personal situation, for example using the wikileaks twitter feed to promote the idea that he is innocent and the US is running a smear campaign. I do not think he would be asked to step down, especially so publicly, if he had kept his personal life and wikileaks separate.
Yes, HE has mixed wikileaks with this rape charge. Not the newspaper that published the story in the less-than-24h time period during which the charges stood. The guy who hadn't even been told there were charges against him before the article was published. It's all his fault. He was clearly asking for it... the way he dresses...
You can't take the sky from me...
I'm not a conspiracy nut but....
If it looks like a horse, smells like a horse, sound like a horse and feels like a horse, it is most likely a horse.
Government officials tell directly to the public that if Assange doesn't hand over the files they will get him by other means and one week later you see rape charges.
How come there are still people thinking that something might be even remotely true concerning these allegations.
"He's most likely guilty of something."
Based on what, the fact that the media said he MIGHT be? Why are you so quick to deny this guy a trial? Do you have evidence that we don't?
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
When it comes to national security, nothing is sacred, unfortunately.
Seriously, you just came out and said it out loud? You don't even bother to hedge or attribute the statement to "in times of war" or something. Well, I will admit your bluntness is refreshing, and in turn I will be just as blunt. I disagree with you 100%. National security is not our one and only core value. Many, many other values must come first. This is especially true when you are only talking about a _potential_ threat to national security not even a fully realized one. Anyone who believes otherwise doesn't deserve the freedom and benifits of a modern society because they have a barbaric mindset.
Sure, the allegations could be true, but - Birgitta Jonsdottir is a politician, and like everyone else has a price to do or say anything. It is within the realm of probability that she has been paid to take this highly public stance.
The fact is, a smear campaign is not just a simple accusation (in this case two coincidentally made on the same day), but rather a string of questionable accusations presented to people. Sure each one can easily be disproved in most cases, but if you make enough false allegations and pay a few people (especially those who appear to give credibility to an accusation) then these lies appear to be true.
Does ANYONE actually believe the USA can illegally invade another country, kill hundreds of thousands of people and manage to hide it.... yet would just stop at a simple rape allegation?? Uh, no! It has been widely covered that the US government is actively trying to destroy credibility of wikileaks, and sadly that will involve putting US operatives or paid rats inside wikileaks with the ultimate goal of taking this organization down.
The CIA has set up dozens of puppet governments in similar ways, so taking down an enemy website by 'framing' those who run it will happen. Truth be told, that "Collateral Murder" video makes much of what has happened look like a child's birthday party. For example, the blast and shockwave from the MOAB bomb can destroy about 8-10 blocks radius of a city, and we used these in Iraq... how many people who be disgusted if we saw the aftermath of just one?
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It does not seem like the organization is calling for him to step down, rather a supporter of the organization.
This is an amazing statement. It sounds a lot like something you'd hear some crooked cop say when stopping a black driver in a nice car.
"He's most likely guilty of something".
Considering the enormous motivation of people in power to make sure Assange is put out of business, I'm surprised that this clown show with the rape charges today, no raped charges tomorrow, new rape charges the day after that is being done in such an amateurish manner.
Whatever happens to Assange, I'm sure that the people who will take over operations of wikileaks soon are getting the message loud and clear: Do not mess with those of us in power, or there will be a committed campaign coming at you from all sides, from the police, to press releases, to your personal life.
Yes, the message of how fragile a person's life is comes through loud and clear when you make life uncomfortable for the powerful.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Isn't crying "rape" such an awesome tool for character assassination? You don't have to be a bad person at all. You could be the most saintly person in the world, but as long as I find a female or maybe a little boy to claim you did something vague, I can ruin the rest of your entire life.
I'm all for rapists being punished. However I also believe a woman who knowingly falsely accuses a man of rape should have to serve the maximum sentence he would have served if convicted. If this were enforced, I think you'd see a huge reduction in the number of rape allegations....and for those feminists who cry foul, I'm not suggesting that if the man isn't convicted the woman should be - I'm only talking about applying this to blatant false accusation.
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It is not uncommon for people in a leadership role to take a "leave of absence" or "administrative leave" when there is an allegation of some sort of impropriety like this. It is usually publicized as "taking time to review the situation with lawyers & mount a defense," by the person taking the leave, and it also sends a clear signal that the "organization" is not embroiled in some sort of tawdry legal battle.
When the case finishes up, if the defendant is declared not guilty, they can step back into their previous role; if they're declared guilty, the organization is not tarred with the "we support and employ rapists/molesters/etc" brush.
If Wikileaks is about more than Mr. Assange's fragile ego, then it's not unreasonable to suggest that he should take an administrative leave from his duties to mount a defense. If this were just an "intelligence operation" to smear Mr. Assange, I think it would be a lot more convincing than the keystone kops operation we've seen so far with charges being levelled and then withdrawn.
I know civics education in this country is complete shit, but I do seem to recall something about how we afford people the presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty in a court of law.
You are right in that your civics education is complete shit. We don't presume innocence. If we did, then bail would not be necessary. After all, why would you hold someone in jail when you presume them to be innocent? You'd not arrest them, as you wouldn't arrest someone who is innocent. But, as you said, your civics is shit.
The presumption of innocence is a guideline for how to treat the accused while in the presence of the jury so as not to bias the findings. No more. There is no "civic duty" to presume someone innocent. OJ is a murderer. I can believe that before he's arrested. I can believe that during the trial. I can believe that after he's found not guilty. I have no duty to presume him innocent. The court is supposed to do so during the trial, but has no duty to do so before or after the trial.
Add that to the fact that "innocent" has no legal meaning. You don't find someone innocent, and the courts never make any ruling whatsoever on the "innocence" of anyone. But if your civics education wasn't shit, you might know this. If you'd like, I'd be glad to give you a civics education so you can learn the difference between being innocent, being presumed innocent, being guilty and being found guilty.
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Too true.
IIRC, it was Rumsfeld that initially bluntly put the phrase "paradigm of prevention" out there into the open- of course, this deceptive model of targeting whoever they wanted was nothing new- but it was time to introduce a new platitude into public that few people would notice, and even fewer would care.
The 'shift' that the paradigm of prevention brings to our countries practices in dealing with such potential risks is this philosophy-
'Not having proof that we are going to be attacked is not sufficient reason for not taking action against the potential assailants.'
It is, in a very real way, guilty before proven innocent.
In the past year or two I have felt a glimmer of hope, though... 7-10 years ago when I talked about this sort of stuff in public, people freaked out and thought I was either insane, mentally handicapped, emotionally distraught, or trolling irl... but in the last 2 years I have seen somewhat of an awakening amongst all classes of people- from teachers to law enforcement to businessmen to blue collar workers to local government, people are starting to wake up and realize that this problem will not be solved by appealing to the political self proclaimed clerisy. The question is, will it turn into a full fledged witch (terrorist) hunt between citizens or will the citizens realize their enemy is more than a person, or a group of people, or a country, or even a political/religious ideology.
When it comes to national security, nothing is sacred, unfortunately.
If that is your take on it, the 'terrorists' have already beat you. If nothing is sacred, then, not only has national security has failed, but so has the dream that filled our founding fathers with such zeal. Death is nothing new. People have been dying for a long time now. What is important is that people die for something that they believe in, something that betters mankind, something that leaves a legacy to be commended and honored by posterity. If our "national security" is just making sure that we put bullets in people trying to get across our land without protecting us from the dangers already in our government then our problem is far greater than can be solved, which is what I am suggesting.
Don't be so quick to resort to action. Never write anyone, or any party, a blank check of support for spouting off a few obvious statements that anyone can agree on without digging deep into the details of the "solution". Case in point:
I have no idea about Sweden, but in the US they can bring charges and drop them pretty much at whim. It's not gone forever until a judge dismisses them.
From what's leaked it sounds like it's basically a case of someone sleeping with more than one woman, being sloppy with protection, women getting pissed off and anxious about STD's and involving the Swedish judiciary which gets the brilliant (and internally divisive) idea to use it as a pilot case on whether consent can be considered having not been given, if it was predicated upon the use of effective protection. Which is why you get one attorney saying 'rape!', the next one saying 'idiot, it's barely even minor assault in the worst case, if even intentional', and the third going 'hmmm... interesting theory, lets victimize someone (and maybe save the first attorney) to test it'.
Ah, well, if consent can be predicated upon such issues I suspect we'll get a whole load of 'rape' charges against women who said they were on the pill...
Its not blind faith, it just shows how little we all seem to trust the US when so many of us are quick to assume that a rape allegation against an individual the US would clearly like to silence is an attempt to smear their reputation.
It shows how little you trust Sweden too if you think that the state prosecutors in one of the least corrupt countries in the world are on the CIA payroll and that Sweden would surrender its own sovereignty in such a blatant way in order to please the US.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
Everyone is guilty of something.
Cardinal Richelieu wrote 'If you give me six lines written by the most honest man, I will find something in them to hang him.' Modern legal systems have had a few hundred years more complexity added since then. It's basically impossible to go for more than a few hours without committing some kind of crime. Assange comes across as an egotist on a power trip in interviews - it wouldn't be at all surprising to discover that he has done something stupid with his newfound fame. Even if he hasn't, the idea that he is wikileaks is likely to harm wikileaks in the long term.
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I assume that you're talking about interviews you've read, or snippets of talking head interviews on TV.
It's worth noting that the corporate media hates Assange and has reason to fear wikileaks, almost as much as the powerful elite. I'm not sure you can believe anything that you get from the corporate media when it comes to wikileaks. Just put together half a dozen articles about Assange on the desk in front of you and scan them to see what jumps out. I bet you'll be surprised at an eerie similarity that those articles have to one another. You would think that there'd be at least a little bit of variation in the questions asked and the overall structure and tenor of the arguments made in those articles. They really come across as the perfect inverse of a highly synchronized public relations campaign.
I would bet that if Assange disappeared tomorrow and someone else took over Wikileaks, after a very short time we'd see a very similar story-arc with the person who took his place. Not the same charges, of course, but similar focus on the person instead of the institution. On personality instead of substance.
You are welcome on my lawn.
That Hitler quote is interesting, and it makes me wonder why general education does not generally involve reading the speeches of evil people who were never the less skilled at persuasion. I would want such a thing as a way to immunize the citizens against demagogues, but then I realized that another outcome could be that we'd have a lot more nazi's in the world today. Though perhaps even that price would be worth it as long as the average citizen got a bit wiser to political manipulation.
That guy quoting Hitler is itself a good example of propaganda, as by associating phrases or ideas with Nazism, you can make people think that those ideas are themselves evil, completely independent of whether they are or not. For example: is law and order something a country NEVER needs? I'd say that overall it's a good thing, in fact. What sort of evil or not comes from the actual details of doing that - not simply saying some words that Hitler once said. So anyone could call for law and order, but if simply saying "Hitler said it" was a valid argument, then most good ideas are forfeit.
I'm surprised so few people are intelligent enough to understand this. But people's brains turn off when Hitler is involved. It's almost as bad as bringing up child porn.
Disclaimer: IANAL. This post is, however, legal advice, and creates an attorney-client relationship.