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Big Brother In the School Cafeteria?
AustinSlacker writes "An Iowa school district's lunch program asks children as young as 5 years old to memorize a four-digit PIN code so it can monitor what they eat in the school cafeteria - prompting some parents to claim it's an unhealthy case of 'Big Brother.' An over reaction by parents or an unnecessary invasion of privacy?"
I predict that at the end of next month, little Debbie Povunktuk will be recorded as eating 500,000 calories all in mashed potatoes.
C'mon... kids that age share all sorts of things... they won't understand that sharing their secret PIN is wrong. Mainly because their mom&dad said to report anyone that tells them "it'll be our little secret"
Karma: Excellent. 15 moderator points expire sometime.
Schools really should be more mindful of what [i]they[/i] serve. If a kid wants to bring their own lunch that's fine, but the school provided meals should be healthy and balanced. Let's get rid of the candy and soda machines while we're at it. Not only does it promote unhealthy lifestyles, but is a disgusting display of consumerism within a so-called institute of education.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
"We're making sure that as they're leaving the lunch line that the menu items they've selected match up with state law, so they're selecting a meal that has all the basic [components] of good nutrition," said school district spokesman Jarrett Peterson. "We're not tracking what each individual child eats."
If that were true they would not need a PIN, just a pass/fail for whatever is on their tray. Pass you get to go and eat, fail you get back in line and get your vegetables.
When I was in public school we didn't even have a choice - everybody's meal was exactly the same. Other than outliers with food allergies, why aren't they doing that? No need for any of this technology crap (which, I'd be surprised if it weren't a sweet-heart corporate socialism deal for some company that is owned by a member of the school board) and they probably save money by streamlining preparation and purchasing too.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Perhaps not. A short pin number is easy to remember. You're not going to send your five year-old to school with a pocket of cash for lunch. Often times schools will simply have a running tad, controlled via an identifying number. It can be paid off as the semester goes, or filled with credits ahead of time. I seriously doubt that most schools offer much variety in food, so tracking what they're eating isn't going to varying much from student to student. About the only thing it'll show is who does or doesn't bring their lunch from home.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
recording what our children eat in school is not a bad idea, I don't see it as big brother and the school's response is completely reasonable: "The program is intended to provide the children with more food options while ensuring compliance with new and stricter state-mandated nutrition requirements."
I would appreciate it if my kid's school would tell me what he was eating or if he was eating.
Makes sense to me, wonder if these parents complain when their children take state mandated tests.
Also why is the parent making a huge deal about memorizing 4 numbers? Don't these children know their 7-digit home phone numbers?
I feel very sorry for whatever teachers and administrators that have to deal with Garry Howe, the parent making a big deal about nothing, hate to see what happens when one of his kids bring home a B!
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
I actually just have a personal identification number. I think a personal identification number number would be a bit harder. Is it like a matrix of vectors?
Like PIN[0]=1234, PIN[1]=5678. So my PIN number for school would be 1, but my PIN number for my luggage would be 0.
Now from the summary I don't even know what a personal identification number code is. Unless you have a secret code to unlock a little brief case that contains your PIN.
Salesman of expensive system takes school district decision maker out for dinner and whatnot and explains how this will solve their compliance issues - it's high tech after all!
School guy says, yeah but why don't we just feed them what's required by law?
Salesguy: But this is high tech! By the way, here's the literature and specs of the system in this briefcase - you can keep this old thing.
Schoolguy: Well, it is for the good of the children! Where do I sign?
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
Does this mean they don't eat?
Maybe it's training them for air travel - bizarre and excessive punishments for simple infractions.
At my secondary school some low income pupils qualified for subsidised meals and got a meal ticket in the morning which they would hand in at the canteen. There used to be a system where if you lost your ticket you could put your name in "the book" and get your meal. They later found that people were appearing in "the book" on a daily basis. They were selling their tickets and claiming to have lost them while going on to claim their free meal. The school closed that loophole and made a rule that if you lost your ticket, you didn't get your meal.
So yes, I'd imagine that they either don't eat or else use some sort of PIN retrieval system (like asking the school to look it up for them).
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Your parents said the same thing when they were your age, and your kids will say the same when they are your age.
Seriously! My elementary had a PIN code to pay for lunch over 20 years ago. It was a very helpful system that allowed parents to deposit money into the lunch account. Kids didn't have to worry if they had money or not in the account either. The account would go negative and a letter would be generated to be sent home reminding the parent to deposit money into the account.
The only difference between then and now is that school districts are watched under a microscope about what food is being fed to the kids. So now the lunch lady records what food you eat so the school can use that data to improve the food and prove they are meeting state/federal guidelines. Where is the harm in that?
I'd certainly like any school to stop my kid from draining his lunch account by buying nothing but Twinkies!
Check out the source of the story, folks. It says at the top of the page that it's coming from an organisation called "Fox News, Fair and Balanced".
Just thought you should know.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
How can they possibly justify the need to monitor what children eat. When they are either eating what their parent gave them or what the school gives them. This is has no purpose other than to get kids used to being monitored. For crying out loud, if you're worried they're eating too much junk, stop giving it to them.
Iowa schools were profiting by selling the rights to provide school lunches to outside contractors, who found it more profitable to sell kids junk food. Parents got sick of this and demanded the legislature step in. Some administrator took this mandate a little too far, possibly on purpose.
I am not a crackpot.
What if 20 years from now an insurance company could give you higher premiums because you didn't eat the right things when you were 7?
I don't really see the huge deal here.
I have a theory about why it's a big deal. The story is coming from Fox News, the same organisation that is owned by Rupert Murdoch who just made a big walloping donation to the GOP, has kicked up a stink about a so-called "ground zero mosque" that they actually supported nearly a year ago when the story first broke, and are now approaching mid-term elections with the smell of Democrat blood in their nostrils. Anything that helps to build up a picture of "Americans losing their freedoms" is just part of a broader campaign to portray everything that's happening in the world as bad ever since that black dude got elected. So "School implements technology to comply with laws combating the obesity epidemic" becomes "Big brother in Iowa" with the requisite question mark on the end to fool the impressionable reader into thinking that this piece of commentary is actually an NPOV news story.
Meta-moderators, please pay attention on this one. This is neither a troll nor flamebait, it's a valid comment. As the OP says, there is no -1 disagree option.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Perhaps -you- should be a parent and rationally explain to your kids why you don't want them eating junk food. Chances are, you've been reinforcing behavior you don't want such as giving kids candy or other sweets when they've done something good.
And its his money, he should be able to spend it how he wishes. You've got to let kids grow up at some point and make their own decisions about their lives. When people place too much control over their kids, the kids go wild at some point in their lives, perhaps its late nights with friends, perhaps its when they turn 16 and have their own car, perhaps its in college, trying to control every aspect of someone's lives, especially something as basic as economic freedom and freedom of their own body is going to push them away from those who try to control them. Rationality is key, so is motivation. Yeah, they might be overweight now, but lets say he finds a girl he likes? Priorities will have changed. Lets say he then enjoys something else more than ice cream sandwiches and spends his money someplace else. People go through changes. Trying to control people makes them resent you.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
You don't have to buy a school lunch.
You're not going to send your five year-old to school with a pocket of cash for lunch.
That's how it used to work and it was never that big a deal.
'the agency'?
I suspect the CIA has better things to do with our time than brainwash our children.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
You know, I scanned the first 75 replies or so and I cannot recall a single one being from someone who actually claimed to have a kid in a school. So here's my take on the situation, as someone who has had 5 kids in school.
1) This isn't news. This has been going on for a long time now, as school districts strive to stop handling money. As a parent, I would *FAR* rather write a check every few months (or, better yet, this year they take Paypal!) to pay for my kids lunches, than try to find the exact damn change every day for my six year old.
2) I have a child who has struggled with weight issues from birth. Seeing as how she has two rail thin sisters (and they eat the same things), we have been working with her for about a year to emphasize better food choices and controlled portions. However, the simple fact is that schools do have choices in the cafeterias, especially starting in middle school. As such, I consider it a good tool for me to keep track of all my kids *SPENDING* and eating habits. I can tell if my high school freshman is guzzling down four packages of twinkies a day, or eating a real meal.
3) What, exactly, does anyone believe the schools will do with this information? They are already legally restricted in terms of dietary requirements (by state and federal regulation) and they are already legally restricted from divulging personal information of students. So, does anyone her seriously believe that they will start selling Hostess the names and eating habits of every child? Or that they will start writing contracts with companies simply to, what? Increase profit margins? Violate laws by bringing in unhealthy foods? Sorry, it won't happen.
I think that the bottom line here is that this really isn't a privacy violation. It's a tool to allow parents to control diet and spending of kids who might not be able to make the best decisions about such issues.
Bill
You know, maybe I need to patent that process.
That was an awesome post. I look forward to your pointing out acronym-aided redundancies in the future.
I don't even understand this idea that data about your eating habits is yours to keep secret. It's not like going to a doctor. If you ask the lunch lady for mac and cheese, and no chicken thank you, she's not legally bound to respect your privacy.
People seem to be saying "the human element is fine, but systematic tracking of eating habits is a concern" but that doesn't make sense. Either it's protected or not, there's no sense of security in relying on people's poor memory to ensure your privacy. If someone wants to spy on you and know what you're eating for lunch, then they can ask the lunch lady, there's no expectation of privacy.
In some ways, this was genius. While you couldn't control (or tell) exactly what they purchased, you at least had control over how much they spent. Also: there was no risk of lost or stolen lunch money.
On the other hand, it was a privacy nuts worst nightmare - scanning kids. There were assurances that the ID gathered from the thumb was reduced to datapoints which could NOT be used to produce a new image, so no larger database concerns, but still creepy.
In the end, we just had our kids bring their lunches. The school lunches were high-fat crap, usually something fried or made entirely of cheese. Best estimates from our kids was that over half the kids brought lunch, and this was a reasonably affluent town. Crud, if they would just throw in an apple or something once in a while, they'd get more takers.
Wow, you just named a lot of allergens!
I know someone allergic to lettuce. I dated someone who was allergic to fish. A lot of people are allergic to legumes. Almonds are a common allergen, as are most tree nuts.
Google can find you examples of famous people with allergies to every one of those things you mentioned.
-- Terry
Ftfa: the number will pull up the child's photo so the cashier can verify the identity.
That little check is in place at least.
That said children can go and purchase meals for each other. But it's pretty hard to purchase meals on someone else's account.
she's not legally bound to respect your privacy
This way of thinking is why we have more laws than anyone can keep track of. Do you really want to live in a society where the goal of the legal system is to completely and fully represent an "ideal" system of ethics? Perhaps the lunch lady gabbing about what your 5-year-old has for lunch is a bad example (anecdotal observations of this data are probably less than worthless), but in general should we really justify an activity by pointing out that there is no law against it (or excuse lack of an action by pointing out that there is no law obligating the action)?
At my high school, we had an hour break and were allowed to leave, so the nearest McDonalds, nearest pizzeria and such got a lot of business.
But as I later did in college, I packed lunch very often, both to save $ and avoid making the trip.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
then of course, there's the human factor of being able to choose wtf we want to eat. sometimes, it's ok to say 'fuck science, I want a burger and fries.'
For an adult I completely agree...but as an adult you are deemed to be aware of the consequences of your actions whereas children are not. It is reasonable to expect an adult to know that it they eat a burger and chips every day there will be health consequences and so this is likely to temper the enthusiasm of most adults. However a 5 year old is extremely unlikely to be that restrained and will quite likely reason "I like burgers so I'll order one" every single day.
To me this school program sounds enlightened. It lets the kids choose what they want but still monitors them so that if they do make bad choices like burgers every single day they can take corrective action. This is EXACTLY what schools should do: let them make their own choices and then catch them if they make bad ones and the teach them about why the choices are bad. That way when they do become adults they are used to making decisions and, being aware that those decisions have consequences, their decisions will be informed ones.
The conditioning happens earlier than that, I'm afraid.
You need to put a television show on aimed at preschoolers. Make it have a fuzzy stuffed bear who helps kids with things they don't know how to do themselves. Make it a "special assignment" for this bear to help the kids.
The kids are told to do X or Y (make their bed, change the lining in their rabbit cage) by themselves with no parent guidance. That's key number 1.
So how does this external agent, this "stuffed bear" change agent, know how to visit the children to help them? How else? A flying ladybug, that conceals a camera in it. The camera flies in the neighborhood, sees the conundrum of the child, deploys the camera and takes some footage. It then flies to a line-of-sight position, and sends the signal to an orbiting satellite, from where it's beamed to the special agent bear's headquarters. His employer then takes him off of whatever he's doing to go help the child with what they want to accomplish. After all, "it's all part of the plan" (we'll make that a tagline of the show, too.)
Farfetched? No, it's going on right now, unfortunately.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
"Some adults I know would pay for this service in the real world..."
In the 60's we had a thing called a "lunch order". The parent would write the lunch order on a plain envelope and put the money inside. This was given to the teacher in the morning and at lunch time the lunch would be delivered to class with your name on it.
The results were; Kids didn't spend half their lunch time waiting in line, nor could they blow their money on sweets. Parents knew exactly what their kids were getting for lunch, and bullies had little opportunity to steal the money.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
How on Earth is it "dehumanization" to enter your fine account number at the "register" in order to deduct lunch funds from your account?! Get real.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
If my school had had a Taco Bell, adults would have come to school to eat as it would have been the only fast food place for 30 miles. :)
Duh, your personal identification number number is so that you can get money from the automatic teller machine machine.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
Man, mod this guy up. Fox has been at work in the last 15 years on getting out angry mobs against anything that did not strictly follow the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld dogma. The "teabaggers" are mostly FOX's creatures (with the help of neocon think tanks and their money). BTW, did we hear FOX yelling at the PATRIOT Act, which really instated a Big Brother police state ? No we didn't. Duh !
In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
Just like then, you can get pizzas, hot dogs, hamburgers, pastries, sweets and pop
Makes you wonder, why are kids so fat these days when they have quality dining like this available?
Actually the first three are relatively healthy, but the last three.. welcome to obe-city.
which is totally what she said
That was a joke. Over here we usually reserve "stall" for the toilet, or perhaps for where you'd milk a cow.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
Why can't Johnny just give his name to the cashier?
Because when the kid says his number is 8241, that's pretty unambiguous. When the kid says her name is Carie, is that spelled Carie, Karie, Kerry, Kari, Carry, or Care-e (I'm sure some parents can get even more creative these days). Even using soundex algorithms don't always help when dealing with people who refuse to acknowledge the true pronunciation of their name (sorry, but Congressman Boehner's name is not really pronounced Bayner). Foreign names can be fun too (especially when you mix unfamiliar spelling with a strong spoken accent). And all of that is just too much to type when the PIN is only 4 characters (makes the line go much faster).
You guys really have a way of making an old codger feel his age. Back when I was at school in the '60s and '70s, when the planet was newly cooled, and dinosaurs still staggered around dying of lung-cancer from smoking those non-filtered Gauloises, we had two choices: school dinners (paid for up front as part of the school fees) or packed lunches. I much preferred the latter...