IOS 4.1 Jailbroken Already

Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:01 · Score: 4, Insightful

Apple always says Mac OS X and Apple products are secure, non-exploitable and virus free. How are there exploits then?

Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:12 · Score: 0

Apple ... are secure, non-exploitable and virus free. How are there exploits then?

They're two different things. One is a remote exploit and the other is hacking hardware in your possession.
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

this is absolutely incorrect, the first gen ios4 exploits were remote exploits.
Re:Apple's security by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · 2010-09-09 00:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

Sucure from what? External sources?--Generally yes.
The last major ios crack required very little user intervention. Visiting a website & sliding a button IIRC.
Secure from the owner modifying the software directly?
That is precisely what Apple is trying to prevent owners of the software from doing.

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There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
Re:Apple's security by mrsteveman1 · 2010-09-09 00:19 · Score: 1, Flamebait

Is your house secure? What if you let me hang out on the back porch with a crowbar for a while? Still secure?
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

The point you miss is that it existing. These devices are not new and apple have plenty of unix experience these days. Their apps are broken and they're running at the wrong user level. They basically have a bad a reputation as MS for securing their devices.
Re:Apple's security by jefe7777 · 2010-09-09 00:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

if you have physical access to the box, all bets are off.
you must be new here...
Re:Apple's security by imamac · 2010-09-09 00:36 · Score: 0, Troll

So I need to figure this out...is it that Apple lock their devices down too much? Or that they are not locked down enough? Can't be both...
Re:Apple's security by pankkake · 2010-09-09 00:37 · Score: 2, Informative

The last Apple jailbreak was a remote exploit, and it was left unpatched for weeks. This is very serious, yet most fanboys were just proud it was so "easy" to jailbreak their iPoos.

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Kill all hipsters.
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:37 · Score: 0

Did he ever claim his house is fully secure? No? You have no point.
Re:Apple's security by Servaas · 2010-09-09 00:38 · Score: 3, Insightful

Correct way of stating is: They are too locked down when it comes to user configuration yet to open to be called a secure device.
Re:Apple's security by strack · 2010-09-09 00:40 · Score: 1

well apple is not often in the position where its oses have a large enough marketshare for any hackers to really bother with them.
Re:Apple's security by TheDarkMaster · 2010-09-09 00:51 · Score: 2, Informative

Never, never believe in propaganda.

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Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
Re:Apple's security by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · 2010-09-09 00:54 · Score: 4, Insightful

is it that Apple lock their devices down too much? Or that they are not locked down enough? Can't be both...
Why can't it be both? Can't you grasp the difference between too locked down for the owner and too locked down for an attacker?
Let me put it in the same way (including misspellings) as your original post:
Suckure from what? External sources?--Generally not enough. Secure from the owner modifying the software directly?--Generally too much.

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There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
Re:Apple's security by ohcrapitssteve · 2010-09-09 01:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

It's mathematically impossible to make a device completely safe from someone who has complete physical control over it. You can encrypt this and that all you like, but it's literally only a matter of time before someone applies enough computing power and breaks said rights-management. Boot loaders can be heavily obfuscated against reverse engineering, but since the device has to actually boot and work at some point, there's a key to the proverbial lock in that haystack somewhere. I hope I'm making sense, coffee hasn't kicked in yet.

And as for jailbreakme.com, yes, that was a genuine surf-and-get-pwned situation that utilized a "one-two punch" of two exploits, one that caused MobileSafari to execute arbitrary code, and the other that allowed the Unix user that MobileSafari runs as to execute a second payload of code as root. THIS "jailbreak" method was a prime example of sloppy coding and a lack of security mindfulness. Apple could have actually taken a page from Microsoft's recent secure coding initiative by renting some computing power and fuzzing files fed to their world-facing services to try to flesh out exploits. The Unix security model offers fantastic security if you a] implement it correctly and b] don't code sloppily. I get that Apple engineers are probably under an insane time-crunch, but still.

These bootloader jailbreaks however are just cat-and-mouse/whackamole between Apple who has to secure a device but yet make the damn thing actually boot, and an indefinite number of hackers with nothing but time. Hope I've cleared up any confusion anyone feels.
Re:Apple's security by AndrewNeo · 2010-09-09 01:24 · Score: 1

Technically the last jailbreak didn't even /require/ that, all it required was embedding a PDF in a webpage.
Re:Apple's security by Annorax · 2010-09-09 01:28 · Score: 1

Finally a voice of intelligence.
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:37 · Score: 0

The JailbreakMe PDF/FreeType exploit affected much more than just iOS... potentially every platform in fact. Even Okular was reported crashed by it. Equal blame goes around here for Apple's poor browser plugin handling and insecure FreeType implementation, and Adobe's shitty PDF specification that allows embedded fonts to be stored in documents.

It's stupid that any platform is susceptible to these attacks, when the automatic inline rendering of PDF documents is reminiscent of 1990s-style security. Thank you, Adobe. Thank you, IE & Chrome & Firefox & Safari, for allowing it to happen.
Re:Apple's security by erroneus · 2010-09-09 01:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

I generally agree with this sentiment. Typically, locked down and secure are not always the same, but as Apple's style seems to revolve around things being locked down where user and developer freedoms are concerned, it would seem quite natural that they would also lock down the way apps and the OS behave as well. The fact that Mac OS X demonstrably doesn't follow this pattern religiously would seem to indicate that they don't follow their own ideals. Unixes have tremendous capacity for being locked down and secured. It says something "not good" when they fail to take advantage of those features and functions... it's almost as if they don't know what they are doing or don't care to do it right if they do. I would expect more from their highly paid and decorated experts.
People are led to believe they should expect more from Apple; higher standards of quality. This doesn't appear to be bearing out.
With all this Apple-negative said, I still believe that if they got more serious about it, they could probably accomplish what they set out to do -- they just have to want to do it.
Re:Apple's security by oztiks · 2010-09-09 01:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

Absolute fantasy! Apple is unprepared for security and the way the iPad has been cobbled together is proof of this. Their software hasn't been targeted until now and the exploitation of Apple products _are_ becoming more commonplace.
You cant compare it to how Windows was back in the day or any notions like that because Apple is currently going through what Microsoft was unprepared for back then but with a more sophisticated mindset and strategy (crackers / cyber-criminals are smarter these days). Apple based itself on UNIX around the time the internet became common in the household as a result saved them a fair amount of grief but hardly places it as a more secure product in todays world.
The lack of Apples popularity had always kept them in niche marketplaces until now but the iPhone now makes them commonplace and popular enough to mean money for blackmarket hacking. This doesn't mean its more secure its totally the opposite. It means it's less secure because it hasn't been targeted until now. In fact I'd spout there are just as many exploits in the wild for iOS and MacOS as there is for Windows Vista in present day.
For companies a high patch rate and focus on security means a hampering of innovation because development resources becomes focused on fixing problems rather than creating new features. Truthfully, the iPad is a product of that hampering, from my experience its like using a half built house with its scaffolding still attached too it and for the iPhone 4 even the sales people at the phone store cant find feature lists convincing enough to get me to upgrade from a 3GS to a 4. The question "why should i upgrade?" doesn't get answered with a solid response.
Did we get any of those iPhone 4 sales through the roof crap this month on /. ? No Thank God!!!
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:55 · Score: 0

Still waiting for a patch for ipod 1 and 2g.
Re:Apple's security by IndustrialComplex · 2010-09-09 02:02 · Score: 1

if you have physical access to the box, all bets are off.
you must be new here...
I bet you can make it too expensive to be worthwhile.

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Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 02:21 · Score: 0

It's mathematically impossible to make a device completely safe from someone who has complete physical control over it.

That's not correct.
It is entirely possible to make a device safe – just don't switch it on.
Re:Apple's security by Moridineas · 2010-09-09 02:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

The lack of Apples popularity had always kept them in niche marketplaces until now but the iPhone now makes them commonplace and popular enough to mean money for blackmarket hacking. This doesn't mean its more secure its totally the opposite. It means it's less secure because it hasn't been targeted until now. In fact I'd spout there are just as many exploits in the wild for iOS and MacOS as there is for Windows Vista in present day.
Such as?

Truthfully, the iPad is a product of that hampering, from my experience its like using a half built house with its scaffolding still attached too it and for the iPhone 4 even the sales people at the phone store cant find feature lists convincing enough to get me to upgrade from a 3GS to a 4. The question "why should i upgrade?" doesn't get answered with a solid response.
What about the iPad?
re: sales people -- it's the phone store, the capitalist equivalent of going to the DMV. I still have a 3gs but the reasons to upgrade are obvious -- vastly improved camera and vastly improved screen. That's what matters to me at least...
Re:Apple's security by mlts · 2010-09-09 02:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

It is also mathematically impossible to make a 100% secure symmetric crypto algorithm if the key is shorter than the data being enciphered. However, we can make something that won't be broken even after the universe dies a heat death.
Same with devices. Look at the PS3. It took 5 years for any notable breaks to happen, and as time goes on, it will become harder and harder because it will be easier to embed the critical startup keys in layers of epoxy and tamper-resistant circuitry that can't be dealt with without a chip fab with uncapping capabilities.
Re:Apple's security by sarhjinian · 2010-09-09 02:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

Adobe's shitty PDF specification that allows embedded fonts to be stored in documents
There's nothing wrong with this. The intent of PDF is to make a document viewable on every platform in the same way and you can't do that without either embedding fonts or re-rendering fonts as outline drawings (which wastes a lot of space, makes text editing and markup impossible, and increases complexity).

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--srj/mmv
Re:Apple's security by LingNoi · 2010-09-09 03:48 · Score: 1

Well, I go by the apple store a lot, "no PC viruses" they advertise on their big screens. Funny because they doesn't tell you about all the OSX viruses.
Sure they didn't use whatever exact phrasing you're trying to twist it to but it's pretty obviously a lie they use on people not so into computers.
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 03:48 · Score: 0

I've found there is a general consensus amongst the uneducated that jailbraking an ipod touch/iphone will brick it (I heard someone today claim it will brick the iDevice 50% of the time while being quite sure of themself). Even someone who people consider computer literate (I dont believe he is, he's never used *nix to begin with) claim it will "break" the iDevice So despite this terrible reputation for security, iFanboys seem to view any custom modifications as evil and would probably believe the iDevice is completely secure.
Re:Apple's security by joeyblades · 2010-09-09 04:07 · Score: 2, Informative

Apple never said that their products are secure, non-exploitable and virus free.
What Apple actually says is that their products come with "built-in defenses against viruses and other malware".
Re:Apple's security by zmollusc · 2010-09-09 04:19 · Score: 1

we can make something that won't be broken even after the universe dies a heat death

Pffft! I bet some clever hacker can come up with an algorithm that can break it in half the time.

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They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
Re:Apple's security by Achromatic1978 · 2010-09-09 04:30 · Score: 1

Look at the PS3. It took 5 years for any notable breaks to happen
What calendar are you using that shows today to be five years since December 2006?
Re:Apple's security by MobileTatsu-NJG · 2010-09-09 04:37 · Score: 1

This is very serious, yet most fanboys were just proud it was so "easy" to jailbreak their iPoos.
That's because earlier that day there was a lot of babble about 'rooting' Android phones, and that was only a week or two after Android fans were bragging about how much more they value freedom than iPhone fans.
You both feed off each other.

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"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 04:49 · Score: 0

Apple always says Mac OS X and Apple products are secure, non-exploitable and virus free.
[Citation Needed]
Re:Apple's security by yupa · 2010-09-09 05:41 · Score: 1

It's mathematically impossible to make a device completely safe from someone who has complete physical control over it. You can encrypt this and that all you like, but it's literally only a matter of time before someone applies enough computing power and breaks said rights-management. Boot loaders can be heavily obfuscated against reverse engineering, but since the device has to actually boot and work at some point, there's a key to the proverbial lock in that haystack somewhere. I hope I'm making sense, coffee hasn't kicked in yet. You are wrong. First encryption is not used, it is digital signature (rsa). Second to be safe the first signature check should be done on the CPU ROM using internal RAM (no MITM). In this case if the signature algorithm is mathematically safe, you're device is broken if : - if somebody publish private key - if there bug in the ROM There can be others bugs/holes in upper layer of software (bootloader, kernel, ...), they can be patched by an update.
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 05:55 · Score: 0

Straw man alert!
Can you point to a reference where any computer maker including Apple Inc, says that their computers are non-exploitable? Is anyone stupid enough to claim that someone can't trick any of their users into installing malicious software, or that security upgrades are unnecessary, because all the software included in the box is perfectly secure?
Is there any company, including Apple Inc that makes the claim that once you have physical possession of the devices they sell it is impossible to install exploits on it?
I can understand you calling to task naive Apple USERS who think they are invincible. I don't understand why you have to invent lies and put them into anyone's mouth to make that point. Apple has NEVER claimed that you can't exploit anything they make.
Re:Apple's security by ceoyoyo · 2010-09-09 06:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

In the (fourish) year history of the iPhone there have been two (real) remote exploits, both of which were used for jailbreaking and apparently for nothing else, and a parade of local exploits. The first remote exploit took a while to fix, the second was fixed pretty fast.
The remote ones are an advantage to an attacker. The local ones are an advantage to the owner.
Apple's done a pretty good job of keeping the platform secure from attackers. They've probably done too good a job of keeping it secure from the user, but I don't think they've had a very serious go at the latter.
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 06:17 · Score: 0

It took only a few months from when OtherOS was disabled, which is when the people who knew what they were doing got seriously interested.
Re:Apple's security by ceoyoyo · 2010-09-09 06:19 · Score: 1

Uh, what?
Apple locks down cell phones, which have historically always been locked down. When the iPhone came out it was generally much more open than most other phones. Now it's openness has lagged behind with Android's introduction.
OS X doesn't impose a lot of restrictions, just like other desktop/laptop operating systems. Apple does do their best to limit it to running on Apple hardware. That's pretty much equivalent to what Dell et. al. do with their copies of Windows, locking them up in "restore disks" that refuse to install on anything but the individual model they were purchased for. Apple also doesn't do any license checking, which has gotten really, really obnoxious in Windows over the years.
OS X's not being locked down isn't due to any incompetence.
Re:Apple's security by Satan+Dumpling · 2010-09-09 06:34 · Score: 1

No prob, just get the PDF exploit fix from Cydia after you jailbreak :)
Re:Apple's security by CharlyFoxtrot · 2010-09-09 06:41 · Score: 1

The lack of Apples popularity had always kept them in niche marketplaces until now but the iPhone now makes them commonplace and popular enough to mean money for blackmarket hacking. This doesn't mean its more secure its totally the opposite. It means it's less secure because it hasn't been targeted until now. In fact I'd spout there are just as many exploits in the wild for iOS and MacOS as there is for Windows Vista in present day.
Citation needed. iDevices are absolutely everywhere so which reputable source is reporting your flood of exploits ? "Absolute fantasy" indeed.

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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 07:25 · Score: 0

Depends. Sony has the upper hand in this because any "jailbroken" PS3s won't be able to access PSN. I'd say Sony might have lost a border skirmish, but overall, they are winning the war.
Re:Apple's security by pankkake · 2010-09-09 08:49 · Score: 1

Idon't have an Android phone. Not everything is iPhone vs. Android, the iPhone didn't wait for Android to suck.

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Kill all hipsters.
Re:Apple's security by Culture20 · 2010-09-09 09:08 · Score: 1

well apple is not often in the position where its oses have a large enough marketshare for any hackers to really bother with them
But keyloggers and botnets exist on Apple OSes. Macs are the sweet spot for botnets right now. GNU tools, just like linux boxes, but less secure by default, and with users who have a culture of just downloading software from random websites and running it "because macs don't have viruses".
Re:Apple's security by oztiks · 2010-09-09 14:38 · Score: 1

No need for a citation here, use commonsense. Whose going to exploit a music player and to what end? iPhone and iPod touch has brought the concept of Jailbreaking in to the fold and is massive part of this. Hows this not hacking for commercial gain? have you not seen the Rock app?
There has been several damaging exploits dated back to 2009. Some of which use SMS to exploit the phone, a recent one which takes all of the contact info off the phone via an SMS.
Apple is not infallible and its now targeted, being ignorant to that is just plain silly.
Re:Apple's security by oztiks · 2010-09-09 16:04 · Score: 1

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/mac-versus-windows-vulnerability-stats-for-2007/758
Granted more Extremely High for Vista but the 200 odd of OSX I believe trumps that.
As for the iPad it's WIP - so much of it doesn't work the way it could. Safari is seriously limited with its lacking of features on big brand websites the fact companies have to create "iPad friendly sites" is becoming more apparent therefore it's going to take time to bring iPad into the fold. Google Apps are a perfect example of how half assed the iPad is.
The problems for iPad go on but i wont entertain them and make this post too long winded. I'm an iPad owner and i only use it with 3g when I'm travelling. Its thin and easy to carry but holds less for what its worth. It's not worthwhile at home except for when i want to surf the web on the cann. Its lack of web browsing features means I'm forced to use the desktop or laptop.
Re - iPhone 4, its a _PHONE_ replacing their crap camera with a slightly less crap camera isn't a great selling point. If that really matters to you go right a head and buy one. Most people would opt up and buy a camera from a camera store.
Improved screens, great, a small screen which is too small to view websites is now improved, great. iPhones are terrible for web viewing and you can't "really" surf the web on one of them, only for quick referencing and finding out stuff on the fly. The retina concept will probably stop long term use of straining your eyes to try and view tiny renderings of websites and prevent people from going blind but thats it but IMHO the iPhone isn't a web surfing tool anyway. Get an iPad then go back to the use the iPhone, trust me you'll never use the iPhone to view another website ever again.
Re:Apple's security by rjch · 2010-09-09 22:44 · Score: 1

Apple always says Mac OS X and Apple products are secure, non-exploitable and virus free. How are there exploits then?
Because it's pure marketing hype designed to pull the wool over most people's eyes, and pour bullshit into them for those who didn't fall for it.
No operating system is non-exploitable. Believe otherwise at your own peril.
Re:Apple's security by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-10 03:46 · Score: 0

As for the iPad it's WIP - so much of it doesn't work the way it could. Safari is seriously limited with its lacking of features on big brand websites the fact companies have to create "iPad friendly sites" is becoming more apparent therefore it's going to take time to bring iPad into the fold. Google Apps are a perfect example of how half assed the iPad is.
But what lack of features? Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't just make it true. And FWIW, some of the iPad branded websites are fantastic. Is it ABC that has a site where you can swipe left and right between articles?
What's the problem with Google Apps? I generally have found them fairly half-assed and never use them, so I can't say I've ever even tried them on the iPad, but I'd be curious to hear what's wrong.

The problems for iPad go on but i wont entertain them and make this post too long winded. I'm an iPad owner and i only use it with 3g when I'm travelling. Its thin and easy to carry but holds less for what its worth. It's not worthwhile at home except for when i want to surf the web on the cann. Its lack of web browsing features means I'm forced to use the desktop or laptop.
I have an iPad as well, and quite like it. Still waiting for iOS4 ... travesty that it's not out yet. I don't find it that significantly lacking vis-a-vis my other computers.

Re - iPhone 4, its a _PHONE_ replacing their crap camera with a slightly less crap camera isn't a great selling point. If that really matters to you go right a head and buy one. Most people would opt up and buy a camera from a camera store.
STRONGLY disagree. I have a canon powershot and a canon rebel xt. I like photography a lot. Most of the time, I don't have my cameras with me, but I always have my cellphone with me. Amongst geeks / photo-enthusiasts, certainly people understand how inferior any cellphone camera is, but the sheer volume of photos has to go to cellphone pictures. It is very much a big deal for a lot of people.

Improved screens, great, a small screen which is too small to view websites is now improved, great. iPhones are terrible for web viewing and you can't "really" surf the web on one of them, only for quick referencing and finding out stuff on the fly. The retina concept will probably stop long term use of straining your eyes to try and view tiny renderings of websites and prevent people from going blind but thats it but IMHO the iPhone isn't a web surfing tool anyway. Get an iPad then go back to the use the iPhone, trust me you'll never use the iPhone to view another website ever again.
I have both. I still use the iphone a lot. Hell, my wife even uses iBook on her iPhone. I can't do that, but she does.
Re:Apple's security by Moridineas · 2010-09-10 06:25 · Score: 1

Oops, sorry I guess I replied as AC earlier. It was me.
Re:Apple's security by oztiks · 2010-09-10 14:37 · Score: 1

But what lack of features? Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't just make it true. And FWIW, some of the iPad branded websites are fantastic. Is it ABC that has a site where you can swipe left and right between articles?
Lack of features here goes ...
Slashdot - Only recently made the login process 'usable' on the iPad. The opacity change in the background and the login section was VERY difficult to use. I'd go as far as saying broken and dodgy.
Facebook - try and use the jQuery like search interface to look for friends, its broken.
YouTube - ever tried to search for "latest uploaded videos" or sort the search queries? very limiting, on several occasions I've simply given up on using YT on the iPad. Walked over to my PC to find the clip i was looking for. 2 mins on the PC, 20 mins of sh*ting and f*cking on my iPad till i gave up.
Newspapers - Australian based newspaper reading is nothing short of a complicated and sits on a broken half done interface (a lot of it is WIP). It works well on the iPhone, iPad not so much.
Finding text within Web Pages - Please direct me to the "find" or "find next" feature on the iPad?
No Extension Management - Simple things like Google toolbar is not possible. Web Developer tools? view source? without even the option of these things it makes it useless for any professional web person.
Unable to Download Media - I wont regurgitate the no flash argument but if it aint QuickTime it rarely works, in fact mp3, avi all those formats are BUGGY at best. And dont worry about having the capacity to save anything. I'm just curious on how Jobs expects to use the whopping 64 gig he gave us *sarcasm*
The list goes on .... and on .... and on ...

What's the problem with Google Apps? I generally have found them fairly half-assed and never use them, so I can't say I've ever even tried them on the iPad, but I'd be curious to hear what's wrong.
Similar problem as the Newspaper Issue (News LTD). Written to work for the iPhone but not the iPad. Screen stretching isn't there on spreadsheets so the top section stops at iPhone width, in fact you doesn't have a footer the app magically just stops. On the desktop its far more substantial and a lot more usable.

I have an iPad as well, and quite like it. Still waiting for iOS4 ... travesty that it's not out yet. I don't find it that significantly lacking vis-a-vis my other computers.
Maybe it comes down the to type of user, for me who practically lives on the internet as apart of his job my iPad gathers a lot of dust. Believe me when I say i wish it wouldn't.

STRONGLY disagree. I have a canon powershot and a canon rebel xt. I like photography a lot. Most of the time, I don't have my cameras with me, but I always have my cellphone with me. Amongst geeks / photo-enthusiasts, certainly people understand how inferior any cellphone camera is, but the sheer volume of photos has to go to cellphone pictures. It is very much a big deal for a lot of people.
Again same as above, I don't believe a lot of people are in this boat. I believe a small percentage is but you'll find 8 x out of 10 people just want a phone to be phone. The camera is only an extra and there to take snaps of your drunk mates to use as bribery material later - it doesn't need to be airbrushed and polished and stuck on a magazine cover, it just needs to be recognizable.

I have both. I still use the iphone a lot. Hell, my wife even uses iBook on her iPhone. I can't do that, but she does.
Okay so your in agreeing that reading books on the iPhone sucks. Now consider if your to sit on the PC for an 1hr or so reading a technical reference like docs.php.net on the iPhone. You can't, great for getting the number of the local pizza place, bad for serious research work / study / etc.
Re:Apple's security by Moridineas · 2010-09-10 17:01 · Score: 1

Slashdot - Only recently made the login process 'usable' on the iPad. The opacity change in the background and the login section was VERY difficult to use. I'd go as far as saying broken and dodgy.
Hmmm, I've only had an iPad for I guess ~2 months, but I haven't ever had any problems on Slashdot?

Facebook - try and use the jQuery like search interface to look for friends, its broken.
Don't use facebook often, have only used the App on my idevices. I'll take your word for it.

YouTube - ever tried to search for "latest uploaded videos" or sort the search queries? very limiting, on several occasions I've simply given up on using YT on the iPad. Walked over to my PC to find the clip i was looking for. 2 mins on the PC, 20 mins of sh*ting and f*cking on my iPad till i gave up.
CAn't say I've ever run into any of those problems. Can you just go to the website?

Newspapers - Australian based newspaper reading is nothing short of a complicated and sits on a broken half done interface (a lot of it is WIP). It works well on the iPhone, iPad not so much.
Sorry, not exactly sure what you mean? Are you talking about apps the aussie newspapers have released? Not sure how that's Apple's problem... if it's a non-functional website that's another issue. Sites that boot you to a mobile page ghetto and won't let you navgiate to the main page are a MAJOR pet peeve of mine. I tend to hate most mobile pages.

Finding text within Web Pages - Please direct me to the "find" or "find next" feature on the iPad?
An egregious lack (and to be remedied in the next update). Fortunately there have been easy to use javascript bookmarklets around for years for just this purpose.

No Extension Management - Simple things like Google toolbar is not possible. Web Developer tools? view source? without even the option of these things it makes it useless for any professional web person.
Agreed, currently the iPad is NOT suitable for a development platform. But nobody ever claimed it was...

Unable to Download Media - I wont regurgitate the no flash argument but if it aint QuickTime it rarely works, in fact mp3, avi all those formats are BUGGY at best. And dont worry about having the capacity to save anything. I'm just curious on how Jobs expects to use the whopping 64 gig he gave us *sarcasm*
This is another weakness, though to be fair you can download media to the iPad just fine via iTunes or eg mail. Just today I as an example, I was mailed an ePub file and it opened in Stanza.
Not a great interface, but fairly functional.

Maybe it comes down the to type of user, for me who practically lives on the internet as apart of his job my iPad gathers a lot of dust. Believe me when I say i wish it wouldn't.
I can totally agree with you here. I primarily use the iPad for "fun" at home, as an ebook reader, and when traveling for business. At conferences it's been absolutely fantastic. For development purposes--absolutely not.

Again same as above, I don't believe a lot of people are in this boat. I believe a small percentage is but you'll find 8 x out of 10 people just want a phone to be phone. The camera is only an extra and there to take snaps of your drunk mates to use as bribery material later - it doesn't need to be airbrushed and polished and stuck on a magazine cover, it just needs to be recognizable.
I think we'll just have to disagree on this point then. As an anecdote, I would say most of the people I know who got an iPhone4 have mentioned the improved camera+flash as the biggest or a very big selling point.

Okay so your in agreeing that reading books on the iPhone sucks. Now consider if your to sit on the PC for an 1hr or so reading a technical reference like docs.php.net on the iP

Come on guys by dbIII · 2010-09-09 00:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

Just get a Nokia N900 that already gives you full root access and lets you boot into other stuff anyway without encouraging this closed and inferior platform.

Re:Come on guys by __aardcx5948 · 2010-09-09 00:17 · Score: 1

But it's not as shiny nor powerful!
Re:Come on guys by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:23 · Score: 1, Insightful

But is it as delicious to use as the iPhone? I think I'd rather live in someone else's well-maintained garden than a bitumen courtyard of my own. I'm not really interested in tinkering with my device - I just want it to work.
Re:Come on guys by MichaelSmith · 2010-09-09 00:37 · Score: 1

Take a look. You might like it.

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http://michaelsmith.id.au
Re:Come on guys by Skylinux · 2010-09-09 00:38 · Score: 1

But it's not as shiny nor powerful!
shh don't tell my N900 or it might stop working on YouTube. It is not about how much power you have but how you use it.

--
Everyone who buys Wild Hunt will receive 16 specially prepared DLCs absolutely for free, regardless of platform.
Re:Come on guys by Custard+Horse · 2010-09-09 00:39 · Score: 1

But is it as delicious to use as the iPhone? I think I'd rather live in someone else's well-maintained garden than a bitumen courtyard of my own. I'm not really interested in tinkering with my device - I just want it to work.
That's the difference between renting and buying a property. With the iPhone you have to update for full compatibility which means you play by the rules *or else*. What if your landlord dug up the garden and replaced it with a pig enclosure - would you be annoyed having just signed a 24 month lease?
At least your bitumen courtyard is *your* bitumen courtyard. Plant a garden if you want - it's your choice.
It is only a matter of time before Apple pull a stunt similar to that with the PS3 'other OS' function and really put themselves on shit street.
For reference I do like the iPhone but will be opting to replace my Nokia with an Android device soon. I will keep my iPod for music and podcasts...
Re:Come on guys by CRCulver · 2010-09-09 00:41 · Score: 1

But is it as delicious to use as the iPhone? I think I'd rather live in someone else's well-maintained garden than a bitumen courtyard of my own. I'm not really interested in tinkering with my device - I just want it to work.

Goodness. I'm not that much of an old-timer (I got my first, five-digit Slashdot UID in 2001), but is anyone else disturbed by how far Slashdot has evolved from "news for nerds, stuff that matters" and the joy of hacking ugly hardware until it's highly powerful?
Re:Come on guys by whisper_jeff · 2010-09-09 00:48 · Score: 1

That's an expensive test just to see if you like something. Most people would prefer spending the money on something they're certain they will like.
Re:Come on guys by martinux · 2010-09-09 00:51 · Score: 1

I'm not following you here.
I use my N900 to guide my telescope, trigger my SLR camera (via IR), as a portable starmap (Orrery, Stellarium), as a SSH/VNC client, as a motion-capture camera... It can do all of these things pretty well simultaneously.
It also dual boots Android and can be overclocked to 900Mhz+ with no stability issues.
If you mean powerful in terms of processor power, that's all good and well but how much of that power are you personally able to use? What good is having a turbo in a car that's only ever used to take the kids to school*? I can appreciate aesthetic but not when it limits productivity.
Speaking of aesthetic - beauty is in the eye of the beholder and whilst I have the freedom to drastically change the N900's interface I don't believe the iPhone supports per-user optimisation.
I see far more power and far greater variation in 'shiny' in a device with a lower clock and less chrome.
* I really tried to avoid a car analogy but I fear slashdot demands it. :)
Re:Come on guys by Richard_at_work · 2010-09-09 00:56 · Score: 1

I've got both an iPhone 3G and a Nokia N900 (and also an iPad). Back in April I switched to the N900 because I liked it and it was open. I switched back around the start of July. The reason was simple enough - the application range for the N900 sucked badly, and the Ovi store is extremely poor.

Even with a fully open platform at their disposal, the application market is sorely lacking and the closed platform wins hands down. If I could have the iPhones application market on the N900s hardware, I would be happy.
Re:Come on guys by Cwix · 2010-09-09 01:01 · Score: 0, Flamebait

I know Im gonna get hit by some mod that doesn't like negative comments about apple... but flamebait? Maybe off topic, but it certainly isn't flamebait.
Remember mods, you dont get to mod somebody down because you disagree.

--
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
Re:Come on guys by Jesus_666 · 2010-09-09 01:16 · Score: 3, Interesting

Remember that iOS also runs on iPods. When I buy a PDA/MP3 player I don't necessarily want it to have a mobile phone built in. I also don't neccessarily want to pay some four hundred bucks for it. Plus there's the demographic of those who used the Back to School offer or bought their iPod second hand or refurbished.

My touch cost me thirty-five bucks (Back to School; I was getting a new MBP and happened across the offer). Unless you can show me a Nokia smartphone for that price I'm going to be content with having to jailbreak it.

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USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
Re:Come on guys by Brummund · 2010-09-09 01:21 · Score: 1

* I really tried to avoid a car analogy but I fear slashdot demands it. :)
Ahem, allow me:
Some people like to mix and match, and others just want the default stuff, trusting the chef, so to say.
Imagine it to be like a pizza place. Some restaurants based on this fantastic Italian dish got so much on the menu that you don't need to customize your order (except for an extra hot sauce or two!), and others don't trust the chef to make the correct choices from the great number of delicious toppings available.
Do you trust the chef? Are you happy to let an experienced chef guide you to what is the proper ingredients?
Re:Come on guys by KiloByte · 2010-09-09 01:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

You're not supposed to get your software from Ovi (which is worthless), but from Debian (which is the biggest OS distribution in existence).

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The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Re:Come on guys by silentcoder · 2010-09-09 01:27 · Score: 1

>trigger my SLR camera (via IR),
Ooooh WANT. What's the name of the app you use for that ? Any idea if it's available for androids ?

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Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
Re:Come on guys by CRCulver · 2010-09-09 01:31 · Score: 3, Interesting

Don't give up on Nokia just yet. The MeeGo platform that will appear on their next most powerful smartphones is a fully functional Linux distribution that is certainly superior to Android for hackability.
Re:Come on guys by TheRaven64 · 2010-09-09 01:43 · Score: 1

The N900 does not have a multitouch screen. I think the screen is also not quite as good quality (in terms of brightness and DPI) as the very latest iPhones, but I could be wrong there. In all other aspects, I believe the specs are equal to or surpass the iPhone.

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:Come on guys by TheRaven64 · 2010-09-09 01:44 · Score: 3, Informative

MeeGo is the renamed version of Maemo, which is what the N900 runs already. It's Linux, X11, a custom window manager and a set of apps designed for mobile devices. Because, unlike Android, it runs X11, most desktop apps will work with just a recompile, although for best results you will want to tweak the UI for small screens.

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:Come on guys by martinux · 2010-09-09 01:50 · Score: 1

You're not supposed to get your software from Ovi (which is worthless), but from Debian (which is the biggest OS distribution in existence).
Indeed, a quick check shows 22932 packages and not one fart-button in sight. ;)
Re:Come on guys by martinux · 2010-09-09 01:57 · Score: 1

It's named ''Shutter and supports triggering on Canon, Olympus and Nikon dSLR cameras. Sadly, I'm unaware of an android equivalent.
Re:Come on guys by CRCulver · 2010-09-09 01:58 · Score: 2, Informative

MeeGo actually inherits more from Moblin (an Intel-led project) than Maemo. There will be a "Maemo compatibility layer" that Nokia will use until it completely shifts development to pure MeeGo, but what we will get from the next Nokia premium smartphone is not simply a renamed Maemo.
Re:Come on guys by silentcoder · 2010-09-09 02:07 · Score: 1

Thanks though - it would never have occurred to me that this may even be possible though - so now I have motivation to go look :D

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Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
Re:Come on guys by blackraven14250 · 2010-09-09 02:23 · Score: 1

You don't know if you'll like it without at least picking it up and fooling around for a few minutes.
Re:Come on guys by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 02:23 · Score: 0

Remember mods, you dont get to mod somebody down because you disagree.
plz mod parent down!
Re:Come on guys by whisper_jeff · 2010-09-09 02:31 · Score: 0

But why would I care about a phone that I don't want that does things that I don't need? Compare that with a phone that I do want that does everything that I need it to do and I think you'll see which is the clear winner. If I'm going to consider a different phone, I'll consider an Android offering long before the N900 but that's largely because Android is basically a total copy of the iPhone which is a phone that I want which does everything I need it to do.
Re:Come on guys by ZosX · 2010-09-09 03:33 · Score: 1

As you get older you just want stuff to work. That's why I run Windows 7. The last time I installed linux on real hardware, I had to spend a day and a half just getting stuff to work right. I don't really see that as being fun.....now flashing new custom roms on my phone....that's another story.... :)

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zosxavius photography
Re:Come on guys by MobileTatsu-NJG · 2010-09-09 04:39 · Score: 1

Just get a Nokia N900 that already gives you full root access and lets you boot into other stuff anyway without encouraging this closed and inferior platform.
Remember back in the 90's when people would argue Mac vs. PC, and then the Amiga guy would chime in and they'd both tell him to shut up? Shut up.

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"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Come on guys by MobileTatsu-NJG · 2010-09-09 06:55 · Score: 1

It's been a couple of hours since I posted that. I reread it and think it sounded hostile instead of funny. Sorry man.

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"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Come on guys by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 11:03 · Score: 0

Yeah, and I heard it comes with some newfangled device called the, "replaceable battery". What will they think of next?
Re:Come on guys by dbIII · 2010-09-09 12:13 · Score: 1

As you get older you just want stuff to work. That's why I run Windows 7
That's why I run VirtualBox with WinXP in it on Windows 7 because some stuff doesn't work anymore. The "compatability layer" isn't always compatable. Those who think "stuff just works" with Windows 7 haven't used it enough yet :( Maybe after a service pack or two and one paticular application rewritten to fit the new quirks and I'll be able to upgrade all the MS Windows users here to it.
Back on topic, the entire point of things like the Nokia, android etc is they do work and if you want an app you just choose it from a list without having to reach for the credit card. If you get bored with the app you've done nothing more than download a MB or two via wifi. If you completely screw everything up apparently you just restore from backup on it's internal flash drive. I'd like to see Apple go that way instead of a completely closed platform and perhaps they will if their competition does well.
Re:Come on guys by rdnetto · 2010-09-09 18:23 · Score: 1

The correct answer is neither: Ovi apps are rubbish and Debian apps often have issues with the interface (with the exception of the GNU utils, SSH, and anything else intended to run from the terminal)
I get all my apps from the Extras and Extras-testing repositories. All of them are free and open source, and there are quite a few superior replacements for the native N900 packages. e.g Faster Package Manager, Leafpad, HDR Capture, etc.
Extras-testing is intended to be RC quality, but many apps stay there because the developers couldn't be bothered to promote them. I haven't had problem with any of them, not even the alternative kernel (it says a lot that gaining root acess or replacing the kernel on the N900 is as easy as installing a text editor (and rebooting))
You may find the following helpful:
http://maemo.org/packages/
http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/
http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras
If anyone seriously thinks that an iPhone is more fuctional/powerful than a N900, they're using it wrong.

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Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
Re:Come on guys by strikethree · 2010-09-10 01:48 · Score: 1

Other than default desktop being kind of sucky, the N900 turned out to be more of what I want out of a phone than the 2 iPhones that I have owned. Fixing the desktop is actually really easy, you just select which icons you want to show on the desktop and choose a wallpaper and you are pretty much done.
However, there is much more to the N900 than what you see at first glance. It does pretty much everything my iPhones did but does them better. The camera? Superior. The bluetooth? Vastly superior (stereo headset anyone?). The internet connection sharing? Simple and easy and not locked out by the carrier(s). WiFi hotspot? No need to pirate an app for that. 3.5G data connection? You bet. Does it work everywhere in the world? Well, everywhere that I have been, it works fine and I have been on almost every continent. Do I have a control freak trying to steal back control of my phone on every update? Nope.
Really, the N900 is a network connected Linux based server in your pocket. How cool is that? It just works, as an iPhone kind of does, but, if you are interested, you can do so much more.
Ultimately, I gave my iPhone 2G to my son and later, my iPhone 3GS to my daughter. At first, it was tough to choose between the 3GS and N900. I really liked typing on the 3GS more than on the N900. I bought the 3GS first, so I was used to it. I bought the N900 because I wanted to try it out. I was not happy. It was not an iPhone. It did not work the same way. It was not even very sexy (all curved and wonderful to hold). I tried it out for a few weeks and then went back to my 3GS, hoping to find someone to buy my N900. I then went home for a month and used my 3GS exclusively. I went back to work overseas and decided to try out my N900 again. This time I tried it for a month. I really missed my 3GS the whole time. I kept telling myself, this would not be like this with the 3GS, or that this would work better, but I was always comparing it to my 3GS...
So I went back to my 3GS and discovered it really was not that wonderful after all. The N900 was not always fighting me. Upgrading it was not always a decision I had to carefully consider (was there a jailbreak for it yet?). The connection sharing was awesome, the bluetooth was awesome. Hell, the only thing I found to be truly lacking was the web browser (with multi-touch) and the typing. Everything else was as good or better. I do not miss my 3GS at all anymore and I have no desire for the 4G. IMHO, the N900 is the most superior phone out there for me. It really rocks.
strike

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"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen

the problem with these hacks by StripedCow · 2010-09-09 00:12 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sigh, here are some problems I have with these kind of hacks:

1. If it really becomes a problem for steve, he will block it at the hardware level in the next major version, or even in the next minor version.
2. I cannot rely on the fact that there will always be a jailbreak available if I lose my phone, due to 1.
3. It is only semi-legal. Apple will not like me.
4. I loose support.
5. Companies cannot be based on these kind of hacks due to 1,2,3,4, so there will never be a large user-base (or it will grow very slowly)
6. ...
7. No profit! Due to 5. :)

--
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.

Re:the problem with these hacks by Thanshin · 2010-09-09 00:27 · Score: 1

1. If it really becomes a problem for steve, he will block it at the hardware level in the next major version, or even in the next minor version.
The escalation ends at jailbroken, not in protected. Unless you consider possible the full encapsulation of the hardware in a block of resine.

2. I cannot rely on the fact that there will always be a jailbreak available if I lose my phone, due to 1.
1 is false. The argument is similar to "there won't always be cracked versions of windows", i.e.: so unlikely it doesn't really add much to the analysis.

3. It is only semi-legal. Apple will not like me.
Obvious. Non-argument.

4. I lose support.
Only a part of it. But this is completely true and sufficient argument to never crack technology. Exactly the same that we told people some time ago about "clonic computers". Don't play with electronics if you won't be able to deal with the problems.

5. Companies cannot be based on these kind of hacks due to 1,2,3,4, so there will never be a large user-base (or it will grow very slowly)
Companies are an important user base, but not to the point of making private users a minority.
Re:the problem with these hacks by Animaether · 2010-09-09 00:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

1. And the problem with that is...? I mean.. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply there.. that hackers should go for higher level hacks first so that maybe in the next generation of the hardware they can still use those hacks? Wouldn't that lofty idea go against your remaining points, though?
2. I'm not sure what part you're relying on when you lose a piece of hardware that is dissimilar from another piece of hardware - even if that hardware is only slightly dissimilar - nor what role a jailbreak plays in this.
3.honestly? you think it's only semi-legal? You do realize it's -your- device, right? and you care that Apple wouldn't like you?
4. Yes, you do lose support. How often have you had to get support for the device, and how many of those times did you not have
a choice but to go to Apple? Losing your -warranty- is a bigger issue, methinks.
5. Companies -could- target the jailbreaks, but probably not in a form that they would be -based- on them. How silly a business model would that be? But why would that matter for the userbase? There only needs to be only a single app that is worth it for somebody to jailbreak their device. Whether any other company then cares about having that person as a potential client or not is up to them.
6. See 3.
7. I'm not sure how there wouldn't be -any- profit in it. Let's say you're some lone developer, you make an App that only works on jailbroken devices, and you toss that up on your website that you're already running, behind a small PayPal paywall that you're already using for other software anyway. I'm pretty sure every single sale would be 'profit' if you don't count the time you worked on the App as an offset cost; Some people go watch a movie, other people use the 2 hours to knock up a little app. Seems to me going to the movies is a bigger cost.
That said.. I'm all for people just using a more open platform to begin with - but people seem to want their cake and eat it too ( not that there's anything wrong with that.. what else would to do with a cake, unless you're a clown? ) - so the truly open platforms tend to be more of a niche market than the popular platforms.. regardless of their level of openness.
Re:the problem with these hacks by jamesh · 2010-09-09 00:43 · Score: 1

1. If it really becomes a problem for steve, he will block it at the hardware level in the next major version, or even in the next minor version.
I've never bothered jailbreaking my iPhone (3GS) so this would actually be really cool if it happened (assuming it's a hardware update that applies to all future iPhones but doesn't affect existing iPhones) - my iPhone which is now nearly 12 months old suddenly becomes much more valuable as the 'classic' hackable model :)
Re:the problem with these hacks by jellomizer · 2010-09-09 01:06 · Score: 1

Well here is a question...
Unlike other Holes to jailbreak the iPhone, would this be considered a security problem with the phone in general?
If Yes then Apple would probably fix it.
If No Apple will not probably fix the hole.
I doubt apple really cares that much about the jail broken phones. Sure apple fixes the problems as it could be part of a greater security risk. But I don't think it is apples best interests to invest money in stopping those jail breakers who have purchased their products, and willingly put their system in an unsupported state. ANd is willing to go threw some little hoops to access the hardware.
We geeks hound on the evils of apples closed model for iOS but for average joe it makes life easier. So if we geeks are willing to Jail Break the app and possibly make our $400 phone unusable more power to them. It just means that they will need to buy an other phone to hack.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:the problem with these hacks by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:17 · Score: 0

The biggest problem with these hacks, is that hackers think it's cool to unlock them. And people think it's pretty neat they can eventually unlock it. But both are contributing to keep the platform locked as it is. At some point I would even thing that the hacks should lock the system even more, just to see how Jobs goes from there, with limited availability.

But nerds are being bought with these type of systems because they are pretty. Well, then don't complain later with locked systems like this one.
Re:the problem with these hacks by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:25 · Score: 0

It's LOSE, not 'loose'. I see this every fucking time I come to this site.
Seriously, goddamn.
Re:the problem with these hacks by mcgrew · 2010-09-09 01:27 · Score: 2

If it really becomes a problem for steve, he will block it at the hardware level in the next major version
That won't affect you unless you like buying the same gear over and over. If I already have an iThing, what happens to new iThings won't concern me.
It is only semi-legal. Apple will not like me.
There's no such thing as "semi-legal". If there's no law against it, it's legal. If there is, it's not. Some things really are black and white. And personally, I really don't give a rat's ass if Apple or any other corporation likes me or not.
I loose support.
You set support free?

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Free Martian Whores!
Re:the problem with these hacks by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:33 · Score: 0

1. nothing is 100% secure... someone out there will find another bug
2. if you rely so much on a jailbreak you simply don't upgrade your phone until you're 100% sure another jailbreak is released for the new version of software
3. oh noes
4. you restore your phone to factory settings which leaves no trace of the jailbreak... support restored!
5. do you really think the majority of people hacking phones and creating 3rd party software for the hacks are doing it to get rich?
6. ?
7. see 5
Re:the problem with these hacks by PenisLands · 2010-09-09 01:42 · Score: 2, Interesting

Have you considered that Apple is secretly supporting these hacks? If you're to use a phone, Apple wants you to use an iPhone. So they make it possible to jailbreak the phone in order to make it more attractive, and if you choose to do it, they void your warranty so they never have to support you or replace it for any reason. Apple wins all around.
Re:the problem with these hacks by talesin · 2010-09-09 01:52 · Score: 1

1. Shocker. Apple having an engineering flaw? First time ever, huh? At least with this one you don't have to pick it up and drop it on a hard surface.
2. Make something idiot-proof, the world will always make a better idiot. Given time, with a new revision, a new jailbreak will be found.
3. Just because Apple won't like you doesn't make it any less 100% legal. Steve Jobs does not set the law, as much as iDrones (and Steve) seem to think so.
4. And gain functionality, just as with modding almost any other hardware.
5. See points 2, 3, and 4. Especially 2.

Yes, modding is a trade-off. If you aren't happy with the limits set by a manufacturer, you give up your warranty to make it work the way you want or need. It's expected that you have at least half a clue before you start, and accept the potential consequences.
Re:the problem with these hacks by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:57 · Score: 0

3. It is only semi-legal. Apple will not like me.
This depends on your country.
In most of wurope there is no law limiting a user doing whatever he wants with some hardware he buys or modifying the software that runs on it if he is able.
Obviously this is going to void yur warranty, but this is a completely different issue.
Also in europe there is no law provision that software modifiction voids the hardware itself, and also the claimed fact that hardware and software sold in bundle are unseparable and so are their warranties is in dubt here. In fact it is difficult to bundle the hardware warranty with the no warranty statement that comes with all the software EULAs I've seen.
Re:the problem with these hacks by WindBourne · 2010-09-09 01:57 · Score: 1

But if you lose #5, then Apple can kiss off about 5-8% of their phones due to those that want the feature and another 10% due to the 'coolness' of it. Once Apple loses that panache, they will not get it back. And they will continue downward.

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I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Re:the problem with these hacks by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 02:05 · Score: 0

Mostly irrelevant. First, Apple did use hardware blocks on later 3GS versions and on the iPod Touch 3G. These required reconnection to the computer on each reboot to maintain jailbreak. But, new exploits were eventually found. Second, losing ones phone is a rare event if you're in any way responsible for your belongings. Third and fourth, most people never need warranty repair, so Apple's stance on this won't impact them. Finally, the type of apps that most jailbreakers love are really OS and UI tweaks of the sort that improve usability of the phone. Many are generated by developers for free or for a nominal price because they are useful to the developer and are relatively easy. Examples include SBSettings, the various tweaks by chpwn (look them up), etc.
For me personally, Action Menu is reason enough to jailbreak. It adds to the copy/paste menu, providing a permanent favorites list (list of heavily-used text snippets) that can be pasted into any field. I keep various usernames/email addresses in there, for example, saving on a lot of typing.
Re:the problem with these hacks by pankkake · 2010-09-09 02:13 · Score: 1

1. Yes. For instance you can't install Rockbox anymore on the new iPod classic. 2. Yep. And after each update you have to wait for the jailbreak, which is also uncertain. 3. And it is only legal in the US.

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Kill all hipsters.
Re:the problem with these hacks by mlts · 2010-09-09 02:19 · Score: 1

Don't forget #8: If Apple really wants to declare war on the JB scene, they could easily implement a tattle-tale device or some form of check to see if a phone is JB-ed or not. If so, its ESN gets banned off all networks, device reset, and because of this, it won't be able to be activated. Earlier iPhones could be hacktivated, but the 4 would be pretty much rendered into spare parts by this.
Re:the problem with these hacks by PhilHibbs · 2010-09-09 02:27 · Score: 2, Informative

3.honestly? you think it's only semi-legal? You do realize it's -your- device, right? and you care that Apple wouldn't like you?
So, is it legal to saw off a shotgun, or to convert a replica gun to be functional? There are laws that govern our behaviour, and sadly the DMCA (and the ECD over here in Europe) [i]might[/i] make this kind of thing illegal, although I think there was a recent pro-jailbreaking ruling in the US that might put colonials in the clear.
Re:the problem with these hacks by tlhIngan · 2010-09-09 03:33 · Score: 1

1. If it really becomes a problem for steve, he will block it at the hardware level in the next major version, or even in the next minor version.
2. I cannot rely on the fact that there will always be a jailbreak available if I lose my phone, due to 1.
3. It is only semi-legal. Apple will not like me.
4. I loose support.
5. Companies cannot be based on these kind of hacks due to 1,2,3,4, so there will never be a large user-base (or it will grow very slowly)
The same applies to Android phones as well, so the point being?
1) Motorola's already issued the first salvo. Considering earlier iOS devices could load on special pre-jailbroken firmware ("hacked ROM"), while later ones are vulnerability exploits ("rooting"), the end result is the same. Yet people don't seem to consider this a problem on Android, and instead the ability to load hacked ROMs and root is considered a Good Thing.
2) Ditto Android phones. Carriers have been known to force updates on people, and those updates can be unrootable. See Rogers forcing the G1 updates that remove root, for example. The irony here is Apple doesn't force updates (see my iPhone running 2.x still - it can run 3, I just never bothered updating).
3) Big whoop. HTC already hates people hacking their ROMs. Motorola's done it too. Apple's the same.
4) Again, the same on Android. But on both Android and Apple devices, unless the hardware's dead to the point where a software restore won't work, you can restore with the blessed firmware and no one would be the wiser. And if the hardware's too far gone for that, well, Apple nor anyone else really would go and snoop and see if it was jailbroken/rooted/customized. They stick it in a pile, and repair it as a batch. Part of the repair is a complete software reinstall to remove any possible corruption that may happen from hardware.
5) Seems to be working fine for the Android folks, as well as the Apple folks (Cydia supports paid apps, so obviously some people must be making money).
The only thing Android has over the iPhone is it's more open from the beginning as there's no walled garden. iOS devices need to be jailbroken to do the same. Which lets Android have more apps that Apple will never approve of. Also, it gives Android a slight advantage in that you don't need to root or anything fancy if all you want is pirated apps, which gives Android an overall advantage for most folks. (iOS devices must be jailbroken as a first stage in order to install pirated apps).
Re:the problem with these hacks by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 04:50 · Score: 0

How did you manage to be so wrong in so few words? Examples are to explain points, not to prevert or confuse understanding of points. Software versus hardware is not valid comparison. Status of most powerful nation on planet as colonial is only attempted insult. People capable of making crapalloy replica gun load & fire ammunition would also know crapalloy would not survive first test firing.
So what is the point you are confusing? Has some person been convicted of changing firmware or software in personal cell phone or other Apple product?

I've never understood why they fight this... by CodePwned · 2010-09-09 00:12 · Score: 4, Interesting

If I was a business who KNEW I'm fighting a world full of hackers I wouldn't fight them... I would help them. Most people wouldn't care, but those that I said "Hey, we've made it easy for you to do stuff... show me what you can do better and I'll pay you for it!

Apple instead wants to completely control how the users use their devices... and that just won't fly in today's world. That's like slapping a bull and kicking him in the balls. He's gonna ram you

Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by smash · 2010-09-09 00:20 · Score: 1

DRM. Apple sell devices that play and protect secure DRM'd content. The fact that hacks keep coming out and left reasonably open for local user leads me to believe that Apple in reality don't care so much, but have an obligation to the big content producers to give "best effort" to keep the device secure.
That said.... I've had an iphone 3g, currently have a 3G-S. I jail-broke the 3G, had a look at some of the software on Cydia, didn't really find anything worth shit to me (plenty of novelty apps that were cool for 5-10 minutes and were then forgotten about), and didn't bother jailbreaking after a firmware update.
YMMV, but as a phone that does email and calandar, the stock firmware has all i need... and at least the code i am running is SIGNED and approved, rather than trusting some random on the interwebs that his code isn't in actual fact some trojan thats going to steal my shit.
I know that doesn't mix with the slashdot ethos of wanting to run whatever code you like on the device, but really - the stock firmware does all I want. Its an appliance like a refrigerator to me... I just want it to work, and be able to call someone and get a replacement/repair in short order if/when it fucks up.
The success of the iphone leads me to believe there are plenty of non-nerds out there with a similar viewpoint.

--
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by symes · 2010-09-09 00:28 · Score: 1

(1) Naive users will find ways to screw things up and come running for help. Some might even forget to turn the device on and still, in a state of apoplexy, come running for help. This is the way things are. (2) Naive users are content if their phone, pc, microwave or whatever, does stuff in a way broadly consistent with what they want it to do and most are completely disinterested in fiddling around with their shiny new gadget in any shape or form. Due to 1. the number of opportunities (freedom to tinker) given to users is directly related to the number of naive users screwing things up. Becasue of 2. apoplexy can be reduced by protecting gadgets from their users without the majority of users noticing, indeed, one might go as far as saying that doing so improves the user experience for the majority.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by CowFu · 2010-09-09 00:31 · Score: 1

Apple instead wants to completely control how the users use their devices... and that just won't fly in today's world. That's like slapping a bull and kicking him in the balls. He's gonna ram you
The average (read: non-slashdot) user doesn't care if their phone can be a portable DNS or not. Where we see 'locked-down garbage' they see 'IT PLAYS GAMES TOO!?'
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by KamuZ · 2010-09-09 00:35 · Score: 1

True, if the phone does everything you want, that is perfect.
For me at least with my Android, I really need the OpenVPN client (which is not available with the stock firmware) so I rooted my phone. I didn't rooted because I can.
I am also happen to be in Japan where the mobile company selling the HTC doesn't have an app to get the SMS messages from their service (it is some kind of email/sms hybrid).
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by BasilBrush · 2010-09-09 00:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

Because content providers like to be paid for their products. If you go to one of the app crack web-sites, it's amazing how so many jailbreakers can afford to buy an iPhone, but will then go to some effort to steal 99c from an app developer.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:49 · Score: 0

At the risk of being modded off-topic:
I don't own an iPhone, but have rooted both of my Android smartphones. For the first one (Motorola Milestone) it was simply to be able to use MarketEnabler to be able to buy non-free apps from Android Market, as Google hasn't yet gotten paid app support for Finnish users. For the more recent phone (Samsung Galaxy S, or i9000) I wanted the same, but also wanted to apply a fix to the phones stock io-scheme, which frequently causes annoying lag in the UI. My wife on the other hand happily uses the exact same device with stock software.
It comes down to choice, and ownership. Let's say I'm a retired refrigerator repairman, I buy a fridge and the damn thing breaks down and needs fixing. Now, I totally understand that if I decide to fix it myself I'll void the warranty, but if the fridge manufacturer is actively working against me doing work on my own fridge both before and after purchase, that's where it gets controversial, and arguments ensue.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:00 · Score: 0

They steal the 30c from Apple, the developer is just collateral...
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by TheRhino · 2010-09-09 01:16 · Score: 2, Funny

steal 99c from an app developer
You know, I'm not even going to comment on that.
Dude, you just did.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:27 · Score: 0

Yes, it really amazing. So amazing that one would believe that they would have a different reason for jailbreaking. Perhaps they just want to run non-approved content on their phone?
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by ciderVisor · 2010-09-09 01:28 · Score: 1

This is how I feel about buying apps.

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Squirrel!
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Oink · 2010-09-09 01:30 · Score: 4, Funny

How did this get marked as interesting? It's a basic logical fallacy. Precisely *because* they spent all their money on an iphone, they can no longer afford apps. It's the whole butter or guns argument.
The same response can be levied against one who asks how it is we can go to the moon, yet not cure the common cold.

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----------------- Oink. Moo. rarr! -----------------
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Y2KDragon · 2010-09-09 01:41 · Score: 2, Interesting

This reminds me of Apple's 1984 commercial. Then, they wanted to fight the tyrany of though control and obedience. Today, they have become that which they reviled then. The circle is complete.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by end100 · 2010-09-09 02:12 · Score: 3, Interesting

I for one jailbreak my iPhone, and yet i still buy apps. Funny isn't it?
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by thasmudyan · 2010-09-09 02:16 · Score: 3, Informative

The fact that hacks keep coming out and left reasonably open for local user leads me to believe that Apple in reality don't care so much, but have an obligation to the big content producers to give "best effort" to keep the device secure.

No, Apple would like to sue jailbreakers for their last penny if they could:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/07/feds-ok-iphone-jailbreaking/
It's only after a protracted legal fight and sheer judicial coincidence that users are legally allowed to jailbreak their own devices. For the future, you can bet on two things:
1) Apple will put in a big effort to make jailbreaking more difficult even if it further undermines the usefulness of their devices for normal users
2) The courts will rule jailbreaking illegal in the long run. It escapes me how the recent ruling was even possible with the DMCA and all, rest assured they will "fix" this again.
Also, the distinction between Apple and big content producers is invalid. Apple has impossibly close ties to Disney, a content company famous for its hardcore litigation practices, shameless lobbying efforts, and unique in the way it seeks to infuse our culture with conservative religious "values".
Oh, and yeah, on a related note: I finally bought an iPad last week. I searched very hard for a real open alternative that had just the right features, there was none.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Phroggy · 2010-09-09 02:46 · Score: 1

Apple doesn't sell the iPhone as an independent stand-alone unit. They're in a partnership agreement with AT&T (and other carriers internationally), and those carriers have serious concerns about what a device as powerful as the iPhone will realistically do on their networks. They've offered unlimited data plans for other phones and never had a problem, but that was because other phones were awkward and difficult to use and people generally didn't want to use them for applications that eat up tons of bandwidth. Even with Apple's restrictions, AT&T has had to stop offering unlimited data plans.
Also, AT&T knows its own network is not secure. With full access to a powerful mobile device, hackers could find a way to cause serious network problems. Of course, hackers already have full access to such a device (they've jailbroken the iPhone), but the fewer people there are with access to this, the more comfortable AT&T feels.
Most of the time, when Apple does something consumer-unfriendly, there are one of two reasons:
1) Steve Jobs' personal sense of aesthetics clashes with yours
2) Some other company or organization is involved, and Apple has already pushed them as far as they feel they can
Although there's a hint of #1 here (Jobs doesn't want a third-party mail client available for the iPhone, because users would be confused if they had too many choices) we're mostly dealing with #2.

--
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 03:13 · Score: 0

Yeah, how does it feel being an aberration?
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 03:30 · Score: 0

It escapes me how the recent ruling was even possible with the DMCA and all, rest assured they will "fix" this again.
It's possible because the process used was a specific exemption to the DMCA .
Every three years, the feds go over exemption requests that are made, where people argue why something should not be covered by the DMCA. Then they specifically say, "We see where the DMCA is overbearing in this case and are making an exemption to it." It's not like a federal judge takes a case and decides the DMCA doesn't apply; that would just result in round after round of appeals.
So, yes, 3 years from now, they could say, "This exemption is no longer necessary because of X, Y, and Z," but considering the exemption grant stated, "[there was]...no basis for copyright law to assist Apple in protecting its restrictive business model," it sounds like it isn't something that would just get lifted without, say, Apple loosening the reins on the iPhone.
(Note that the exemption specifically exempts phones and smartphones, meaning jailbreaking the iPad is still possibly violating the DMCA)
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by mlts · 2010-09-09 03:45 · Score: 1

There is also the plausible deniability aspect. Say someone manages to find a remote hole into the iPhone and grabs confidential information. If the phone is not jailbroken, the person shrugs, says to blame Apple because his device has been enforcing Exchange policies including remote kill switches. If it is JB-ed, regardless of the quality of Cydia and other items, the blame will stop with the employee because "he hacked his phone."
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by MorpheousMarty · 2010-09-09 04:04 · Score: 1

To play devil's advocate:

The appstore is a nightmarish mess. You cannot tell before you buy exactly what the app does. Just the other day I wanted to download an advanced alarm application (I forgot apple's backgrounding policies basically made this a non starter, but that's an issue for a different thread). I get a list of alarm apps and can't really figure out which one isn't trash. They are all rated about 3 stars, so none of them seem very good, but if they can do the one thing I need them it to do I might pay 99 cents. However the one app that seems to do it is 9.99. So I can buy a 99c app that will most likely fail, buy a 9.99 app, which might also fail and the users are not too happy with. None of these apps have reviews online I can take advantage of. So I pirate it, so I can see before I buy.

/end devil's advocate

The Android Market Place lets you get a refund for any app if you're not satisfied within 48 hours.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by mlts · 2010-09-09 04:13 · Score: 1

App pirates are the bane of the Apple Dev Team, the JB scene, the Android modding scene, application writers, and end users.
What I want to see is Apple having an anti-piracy mechanism separate from the jail. Android's method of checking if the user is licensed is good. I have another proposal as well:
During the legit app install process, the app sends a SHA-256 hash of the IMEI or device ID of the device it is running on to Apple. It gets a signed certificate back similar to how Apple does the SHSH process for OS revisions. Then on future runs of the app, it just checks the ID versus the cert and if it doesn't match, checks the app store if it is authorized to run. If not, it prompts the user to be purchased. Of course, there are ways around this with ease, but this forces the app pirates to crack every app and every update.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by rsax · 2010-09-09 04:26 · Score: 1

Unless the bull is into it. In which case, oh my.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by BasilBrush · 2010-09-09 04:26 · Score: 1

If you cant work out whether the app has the function that you need, you could always follow the support link and ask the developer. If the developer says it has a function and it hasn't, then you can report the app to Apple and also get a refund.
As a matter of interest, what was the specific function you needed, and did you find it?
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by MorpheousMarty · 2010-09-09 04:52 · Score: 1

If you cant work out whether the app has the function that you need, you could always follow the support link and ask the developer. If the developer says it has a function and it hasn't, then you can report the app to Apple and also get a refund.
As a matter of interest, what was the specific function you needed, and did you find it?
I can't remember exactly what I needed, but I did figure out that it wouldn't work without multitasking (iPhone 3G), and push notification would not cut it.

As for contacting the developer, it might be a legitimate solution, but it is a lot more work, and it would take a lot more time. I would have to do it for each app, and I would still not know until after I bought it whether or not the app works very well. A classic case where piracy is the superior solution, even for an honest user. In 5 minutes I could determine first hand if the app was worth using and buy it. In this case I just gave up, since without multitasking no app could make this work.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Phred+T.+Magnificent · 2010-09-09 04:58 · Score: 1

Jailbreaking doesn't mean getting apps for free. Apps from the iTunes store still cost the same, and come to that, I have a handful of paid apps from Cydia, too. In fact, the two most expensive apps on my phone are only available on jailbroken phones.
The point of jailbreaking is to be able to run more apps, including ones that Apple doesn't approve for the official store. Free apps are free whether you get them on a jailbroken phone or not, paid apps are paid whether you get them on a jailbroken phone or not. (Although, an app developer might not pay the same fees to get listed on Cydia as on iTunes...)

--
Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by BasilBrush · 2010-09-09 05:07 · Score: 1

Jailbreaking doesn't mean getting apps for free.
For most people it does.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Andrewkov · 2010-09-09 07:03 · Score: 1

I really need a car analogy to understand this better..
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by chihowa · 2010-09-09 07:31 · Score: 1

That's a bold statement. Can you back it up? Of all of the people I know who jailbroke their iPhones, not one has pirated apps.

--
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Tjp($)pjT · 2010-09-09 09:38 · Score: 1

2) The courts will rule jailbreaking illegal in the long run. It escapes me how the recent ruling was even possible with the DMCA and all, rest assured they will "fix" this again.
The DMCA already included provisions prior to the ruling to allow unlocking cell phones. It hopefully will always allow this as otherwise I will have to pay about $500 a year per phone device to a cell phone company for the devices I use as test devices. And consumers will have less ability to resell devices, and that is not a goal. The viewpoint of the quote seems to believe that corporate interest always wins over consumer interests, which is not always the case; sometimes it does seem like it though.

But... DMCA allowed unlocking before the jailbreaking ruling, and I would hazard that the fact jailbreaking is required to "unofficially" unlock the device weighed heavily on their decision.

Apple and ATT could probably make a stronger point if they "factory unlocked" a phone when it was legally off contract. Until then jailbreaking is likely to remain legal, as well as necessary ...

--
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Tjp($)pjT · 2010-09-09 09:49 · Score: 1
As one of those Apple developers that has had his apps pirated at a rate more than 1000 fold the sales rate (by torrent counters) or 100 fold by my site hits for the apps that use some external resources, I jailbreak my phones for three reasons, which are from least important to most important:
- testing on jailbroken devices because some issues can arise where my app store released apps dislike jailbroken phones depending on the os version and jailbreak method, I solve these as I have spare time
- to have a ready supply of prepaid cards used in test devices of prior generations. Otherwise I pay hundreds a year per device just to have it sit around for testing purposes.
- To have a phone with my apps when I travel and use foreign prepaid SIMs. It saves me thousands of dollars each year. No exaggeration here, comparing prepaid rates in Europe and eastern Europe in particular with ATT roaming. ATT solution, pay several dollars per minute and turn off data service; my solution, pay a few pennies a minute, no call origination fee, and also have full data use as well for reasonable rates. For example, in Ukraine I spend about $60 a month for prepaid (and could save more with contract rates if I was there more) My friend spent $150 making no phone calls but just checking email periodically. I used maps, email, made a dozen calls a day, etc.
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- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by smash · 2010-09-09 11:47 · Score: 1

It comes down to choice, and ownership. Let's say I'm a retired refrigerator repairman, I buy a fridge and the damn thing breaks down and needs fixing.

No, not quite. If your iphone breaks you are free to order the spare parts to fix it. Barring warranty issues, you are also free to open the thing up and replace the parts. A better analogy might be that you have an AM radio, and want to extend its functionality to say, transmit to another AM radio.
Alternatively, you are attempting to modify your fridge (and distribute your modifications to others), without an electricians license. The law doesn't really allow you to do that, either, as you are not qualified to ensure the device is safe after your modifications.
If you really want to run your own code on the iphone, the dev kit is all of 99 dollars (plus a mac to run xcode). Its more than possible to run your own custom apps if you really want to.

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I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by smash · 2010-09-09 11:52 · Score: 1

Let me clarify my stance, and what I'm getting at. The iphone may look like a computer from a programming standpoint, but it also includes radio transmitters that work on a licensed spectrum, and DRM code.
I don't see how it can be legal to fuck with that without approval/license from the FCC, even if apple gave you system level access on the device? So, it is sandboxed...

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I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by exomondo · 2010-09-09 15:56 · Score: 1

The fact that hacks keep coming out and left reasonably open for local user leads me to believe that Apple in reality don't care so much, but have an obligation to the big content producers to give "best effort" to keep the device secure.
Yeah and the exploits in Windows are only there to keep the anti-virus people in business. Apple - like everyone else - aren't capable of producing a 100% secure device or platform.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by rdnetto · 2010-09-09 19:02 · Score: 1

I always laugh when I hear about people paying for phone apps. The N900 has thousands of free FOSS apps, and I'm fairly certain that they're combined functionality exceeds that of all the iPhone apps, both free and paid. There are some things you just can't do on an iPhone, even a jail broken one. e.g. replace the kernel (the alternative Maemo kernel has a lot of useful features)

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Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 19:51 · Score: 0

I'm not sure what you meant, but locking apps to specific hardware (IMEI) is about the worst thing you can do. I switch phone every 4 or 5 months or so (yes, I get them from my employer) and if I cannot keep using the same apps I just bought I will absolutely jailbreak and "pirate" them.
IMEI lock = DRM. Don't DRM me bro.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by BasilBrush · 2010-09-10 01:06 · Score: 1

Funny, when you get down to details, replacing the kernel seems to be about all you can do with Linux. At least it seems to be the number one example.
Most people of course want to use their phones for phone calls, PDA functions, media player, games, navigation, sports and hobby apps. To use it as a pocket tool to help them or entertain them as they go about their lives.
Linux geeks see tinkering with the gadget as an end in itself.
From the link: The custom kernel contains additional modules for IPv6, packet filtering, QoS, NAT, tunneling, kernel configuration, Wifi mesh networking, builtin ext3 for booting from other media, ext4, XFS, reiserfs, NTFS read support, ISO9660, UDF, CIFS, automounter, squashfs, unionfs, device mapper and dm-loop, cryptography, cryptoloop, EFI partitions, UTF8 codepages, mouse+joystick input, PPP, PPTP, serial support, USB/IP and generic USB device drivers, battery info, overclocking and kexec support.
Yes, you can certainly see why almost no one outside of slashdot is interested.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by rdnetto · 2010-09-10 02:31 · Score: 1

We use that as an example because if you can replace the kernel, you can do/replace pretty much everything else.
Phone calls - texting and calls through both GSM/CDMA and XMPP/MSN/Skype/etc. is almost identical - the same interface is used and he contact details are stored in the normal address book. Many/Most of the protocols are implemented through addins.
PDA functions - this one is a little vague, not sure what you mean by it.
Media player - alternative media players (most based on a mplayer port) mean the N900 supports most formats, and can playback various video streams as well
Games - there are many, including ports of old games. There's also DOSBox which provides x86 emulation to run old PC games.
Navigation - Mappero is far superior to the builtin map program, having far more info and features. e.g. vocal directions
Linux geeks tinker with a gadget to find out just what they can do with it. After that, they usually automate an application of the ability they found, and put the resulting program in the repositories.
The key points that make it attractive are that the device's functionality is not limited, and (practically) everything is free. This is in comparison to the iPhone, where programs that compete with the native software are forbidden in the app store. Consequently, even if someone can write a better program, nobody can benefit from it.

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Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by badkarmadayaccount · 2010-09-10 02:33 · Score: 1

Funny how Android devices don"t have that issue.

--
I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by BasilBrush · 2010-09-10 04:43 · Score: 1

PDA functions - the sort of things we used to do on PDAs. Address book, calendar, notes, email etc.
Just to take one of the areas:

Navigation - Mappero is far superior to the builtin map program, having far more info and features. e.g. vocal directions ...
The key points that make it attractive are that the device's functionality is not limited, and (practically) everything is free. This is in comparison to the iPhone, where programs that compete with the native software are forbidden in the app store.
Both Maemo and the iPhone has both free and full-price commercial sat-nav apps. Judging from the UI photos, the free ones on the iPhone are better, and the full-price commercial ones are better. On the iPhone you get far more choice of which one you want to use.
I don't know the state of games or media players on Maemo. But again there's a vast range of both free and commercial on the iPhone. Far more than is available on Maemo. And the top quality ones for both free and commercial will inevitably be better quality on iPhone.
Re:I've never understood why they fight this... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-10 22:15 · Score: 0

Er, it'd cost a lot more than what was spent on going to the moon to fund the research necessary to cure the common cold.

Why on earth... by Jafafa+Hots · 2010-09-09 00:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

would someone buy a piece of hardware that continually needs to be "jailbroken" just to be able to be used in the way they want to use it?

Of course, I say this as an owner of an LG Voyager, which doesn't allow you to load anything on it you don't pay Verizon directly for, so WTF am I talking about? (but at least I got it free.)

Some day you'll be able to own a broadband internet browsing cell phone that will only cost a few bucks a month to use, not $100 or more, and which you can load whatever the fuck you want to on.

Oh who the hell am I kidding. No there won't.

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This space available.

Re:Why on earth... by SplatMan_DK · 2010-09-09 00:21 · Score: 1

For the same reason millions of people buy gaming console? "Because they satisfy one or more of your tech-needs at a price you are willing to pay"? Hell, the ability to download pr0n on-the-go and render/consume it on a "Retina display" is probably in itself worth the asking price for an iPhone4... ;-) - Jesper

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My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
Re:Why on earth... by AmonTheMetalhead · 2010-09-09 00:22 · Score: 2, Informative

You know, you could, i don't know, buy a phone? I don't really know how it's in the States, but here in Belgium you can walk into any old store and buy a phone that comes from the manufacturer directly, no network lock-in, no crapware (other then what the manufacturer installed) and best of all, it's *yours*.

I own a HTC Legend, i don't need to jailbreak it to use it.
Re:Why on earth... by smash · 2010-09-09 00:23 · Score: 1

would someone buy a piece of hardware that continually needs to be "jailbroken" just to be able to be used in the way they want to use it?
Because for a huge number of people, the device does NOT need to be jailbroken to be used in the way they want to use it. Including myself. I jailbroke my first iphone, saw there was nothing REALLY of use that I couldn't do with signed approved app-store code, and didn't bother on my 3g-s.
Am i representative of 100% of the /. community? Of course not, but in reality the nerd crowd who want to run their own code on the iphone are a tiny share of the market.

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I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Re:Why on earth... by Thanshin · 2010-09-09 00:32 · Score: 1

Why on earth would someone buy a piece of hardware that continually needs to be "jailbroken" just to be able to be used in the way they want to use it?
I give you the answer to that and many other questions. The answer that you should try on any question before even thinking whether there's a better answer: "People are stupid".
Re:Why on earth... by alexborges · 2010-09-09 00:46 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Kay you say: why would One buy IT etc etc..... just to be able to be used in the way they want to use it?
Im going to taje the wild shot here that people like the hardware, knows IT can do more, and find IT worthwhile to tinker with IT.
For fucking example, i fucking hate the new iPad keyboard setting because there IS no easy way to change from spanish to english, as there uses to be in the iPhone 3. This IS why i cant type IT like i want because IT fucking turns IT into bigcaps foro some fucking resano i cannot fathom. Aditionally, im writing english and continuously this shit chantes words to spanish. To change IT, i wouldhave to go to settings, touch my nose three times and take a purple dump every time i switch from commmenting on slashdot (english) or on my Facebook (spanish) ...
Argh. I fucking hate you jobs. Not everyone IS a fucktard that can only speak or grite in their own lenguaje (aaaaaaarghhhhh).
I wat a fucking gun (for fuck sake, this thing changes gun to gnu, what to wat, reason to resano, write to grite, take to taje, changes to chantes and purple dump to purple dump).
You know what? If you are an IT pro that needs to speak moré than One tongue, never the fuck ever even look at an iPad. Fuck you apple.

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NO SIG
Re:Why on earth... by Jafafa+Hots · 2010-09-09 01:04 · Score: 1

You know, you could, i don't know, buy a phone? I don't really know how it's in the States, but here in Belgium you can walk into any old store and buy a phone that comes from the manufacturer directly, no network lock-in, no crapware (other then what the manufacturer installed) and best of all, it's *yours*.
Yeah. Still would cost over $100 a month to use here in the states, though.

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This space available.
Re:Why on earth... by Jafafa+Hots · 2010-09-09 01:05 · Score: 1

would someone buy a piece of hardware that continually needs to be "jailbroken" just to be able to be used in the way they want to use it?
Because for a huge number of people, the device does NOT need to be jailbroken to be used in the way they want to use it. Including myself. I jailbroke my first iphone, saw there was nothing REALLY of use that I couldn't do with signed approved app-store code, and didn't bother on my 3g-s.
Am i representative of 100% of the /. community? Of course not, but in reality the nerd crowd who want to run their own code on the iphone are a tiny share of the market.
Yep, but I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about those who continually buy them, go to the effort to jailbreak them, complain when Apple bricks them, etc.
Of course, some likely do it for the fun of the challenge or something.

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This space available.
Re:Why on earth... by Cwix · 2010-09-09 01:09 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Well.. it doesnt work like that in the states. The fact that you think it does, or even that it might, shows you dont know jack about the states.

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You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
Re:Why on earth... by AmonTheMetalhead · 2010-09-09 01:12 · Score: 1

Well genius, i did say this "I don't really know how it's in the States"
Re:Why on earth... by Cwix · 2010-09-09 01:21 · Score: 0, Troll

I really dont know, but I think you may be a fanboi.
I really dont know but I think we have the technology to build a moonbase
I really dont know but I think apples are really blue, and everyone has been pulling the wool over my eyes.
See.. I get to say what I think with no evidence, but I left the back door open for escape if it bites me in the ass. Politicians do it.
If you don't know, don't comment about it. Doing otherwise adds noise to the signal to noise ratio.

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You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
Re:Why on earth... by alexborges · 2010-09-09 01:24 · Score: 1

Nah I take it back. It actually does work fine.

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NO SIG
Re:Why on earth... by scrib · 2010-09-09 01:25 · Score: 1

While this may be theoretically possible, it's not practical. We Americans have come to expect our phones to be free (or very cheap) with a contract. Of course, cell phone service plans cover the cost of the phone. That's all fine and good, but it is terribly difficult (if not impossible) to find a service plan that actually costs less if you already own a phone. If you buy the phone at the street price and then go get a service plan, you end up paying for the phone twice. Rather than pay twice, we tend to get the "free" phones that are locked in to a service provider.
Another consequence is that we suffer terribly from sticker shock if we have to replace a phone ourselves. We think a brand-new, top of the line phone should cost $100-200, not $600+.

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Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
Re:Why on earth... by AmonTheMetalhead · 2010-09-09 01:26 · Score: 1

Funny that, because what i said related to Belgium, not the States.
Re:Why on earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:55 · Score: 0

Because when I bought my iPhone it was the only viable option in that market sector (Android phones had not really evolved at that point). Now that AT&T has eliminated unlimited data, I can't change my data plan, I'm stuck with iPhones or give up my unlimited data--or do the must more expensive option and change providers (don't tell me other providers are cheaper, they aren't for me, almost everyone I know has AT&T--free minutes--and I get 25% flat off my bill through my employer).
Re:Why on earth... by zerotorr · 2010-09-09 02:10 · Score: 1

Couldn't you just buy it from a Belgian company? I know all phones have to be unlocked in Belgium by law, since I'm stationed in Belgium (US military) and recently bought the new Iphone... I don't know if there are any laws about Belgian companies exporting them though.
Re:Why on earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 02:12 · Score: 0

And are you the person who decided that _only_ US issues may be discussed here?
Amon specifically stated things about Belgium, and probably added the "I don't know about US" part exactly because some jackass would start complaining otherwise -- seems that didn't prevent you though.
Re:Why on earth... by smash · 2010-09-09 03:27 · Score: 1

Oh fair enough ni thought you meant why would any one at all bug one :-P. Carry on...

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I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Re:Why on earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 03:39 · Score: 0

You know, you could, i don't know, buy a phone? I don't really know how it's in the States, but here in Belgium you can walk into any old store and buy a phone that comes from the manufacturer directly
Good for you. In the US you can't just "buy a phone" like you window-shop for hardware. It's similar to how you're stuck with a single power company for specific areas (seeing how reception sucks in suburbs and even some city blocks where one dominant provider has a decent signal.) For multi-provider areas, you have to choose your company first, and then see their phone selection.
Many multi-carrier stores of the brick/mortar have little selection for your specific carrier because unpopular models don't turn a profit; they carry five or six latest models for that carrier and a single sub-$100 phone (normally requires a contract unless it's 3 year-old tech lacking MMS.) There are no smartphone bargains to be had because everything older than 18 months is unshelved. People are denied their right to purchase smartphones unless they buy a contract WITH a data plan commitment ($40 extra per month.) Till Sprint's recent move this summer, the big carriers did NOT have $70 unlimited everything plans --you'd need to pay $100+ a month to have on-the-road redundancy for services you don't require if at home. That's near the cost of home-based cable/phone/internet rate, at a reduced quality due to cell tech sucking for calls and low-tier internet speeds. you see where we're going with our bitter realization that monthly cellphone is considered a lrent, contract and pricewise.
Now, might choose to go online, which is NOT how most people buy cellphones --think salesman at your local store just like you yourself suggested. Online, manufacturers tend to not sell you things and instead link you to a brick/mortar retailer, returning to the above. For isntance, Motorola's Droid X just links to Verizon. They do have their online store to purchase some phones directly, but if you want the Droid X, you go to Verizon and can expect the phone's OS to lock you into their penny pinching paywall enslaved environment. You can go to Amazon and pay full price for the phone, but jailbroken phones sell at the phone's full $400+ price plus a premium.
The US has this anti-metric-system-like business mentality where something that is poisonous in the rest of the world is consumed and demanded in a vicious cycle, with no end in sight. For contracts to end, you'd need a 180 degree turn from the providers, and profits margins plus our recession will not permit that. Their lockin is as bad as Microsoft lockin.
Re:Why on earth... by Algan · 2010-09-09 04:35 · Score: 1

Problem is you cannot find a full price, unlocked, contract-free phone that works on the US 3G frequency bands. Since they're different that EU bands, international versions of handsets will only work partially in the US (Edge only), and the ones that are designed specifically for the US are sold only through the carriers. There are exceptions, like Nexus One and Nokia N900, but that's about it. Although I hear that you can buy unlocked Iphones in Canada that will work on 850/1900 Mhz

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If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
Re:Why on earth... by tepples · 2010-09-09 04:51 · Score: 1

I don't really know how it's in the States, but here in Belgium
But how much does it cost for a U.S. resident to move to Belgium to take advantage of the way the market works in Belgium?
Re:Why on earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 04:56 · Score: 0

would someone buy a piece of hardware that continually needs to be "jailbroken" just to be able to be used in the way they want to use it?
I honestly can't imagine. Seems like a world of hurt to me.
BTW, I own and use an iPod touch. It's not jailbroken, and yet it does everything I want a handheld to do (browse the web and check my mail.)
Re:Why on earth... by vlueboy · 2010-09-09 05:39 · Score: 1

To quote someone else on this thread (scrib (1277042)):

We think a brand-new, top of the line phone should cost $100-200, not $600+.
So that about kills the nexus and nokia for most people here. Lacking subsidy, they're high up there in the $450 - $550 range and I doubt they cost that much in euros out there, because there's little incentive to buy an expensive phone in Europe when all others are already cheap and unlocked.
Returning to the price range above: unlike a hammer, tech keeps being reinventing itself and hiding the bodies of supposedly ever-cheapening older versions. I remember the G1 android phone was discontinued shortly after it went down to half price.
Re:Why on earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 11:38 · Score: 0

Why does it continually need to be jailbroken? Older OS versions work just fine. Jailbreak once,, and you're set. If you want new features of the new OS and want to keep your old jailbroken features, then yes, you must update and then re-jailbreak.
Why not just ask "would someone buy a piece of hardware that continually needs to be "updated" just to be able to be used in the way they want to use it...."
Re:Why on earth... by rdnetto · 2010-09-09 19:15 · Score: 1

N900 + TPG
$10/month for 200 MB, or $1/month for 50/150 MB (depends on bundling) + whatever you do on wifi
Of course, you might have meant in your country of residence, but that's like someone in Myanmar thinking that one day there just might be broadband. It already exists, you're just in the wrong place.
So you can either:
a) move
b) change the place that you live in for the better
c) put up with it

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Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
Re:Why on earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 20:16 · Score: 0

Lacking subsidy, they're high up there in the $450 - $550 range and I doubt they cost that much in euros out there, because there's little incentive to buy an expensive phone in Europe when all others are already cheap and unlocked.
A high end mobile easily runs you €600 in Europe. That's $800.
(so yes, most people buy them carrier subsidized here as well)

iOS not IOS by spyked · 2010-09-09 00:15 · Score: 1

Not to be confused with IOS

Re:iOS not IOS by daid303 · 2010-09-09 00:37 · Score: 1

Not to be confused with IOS

Well, that was fast. by Drakkenmensch · 2010-09-09 00:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

For those software engineers still convinced that they can craft the perfect, unbreakable, uncrackable security, you should take two hours of your life and go rent Titanic, the movie about the "unsinkable" White Star cruise liner. There's a valuable metaphore in there for you.

Re:Well, that was fast. by AmonTheMetalhead · 2010-09-09 00:23 · Score: 1

I can craft the perfect, unbreakable, uncrackable security, i just can't let you see it or use it or get near it.
Re:Well, that was fast. by Thanshin · 2010-09-09 00:35 · Score: 1

Wasn't Titanic the biggest and onliest land boat that sank at Fifth Avenue and 32nd?
Re:Well, that was fast. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:37 · Score: 0

Don't run software at full speed if there are icebergs around?
Re:Well, that was fast. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 06:45 · Score: 0

If you only watch 2 hours of Titanic you'll probably miss the point...
(imdb lists it as a 194 minute runtime)
Re:Well, that was fast. by sl3xd · 2010-09-09 07:07 · Score: 1

"Unsinkable" was coined by the marketing droids.
The engineers knew it was possible to sink it. They just thought it would sink more slowly than it did - giving time for rescue vessels to recover survivors.

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-- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.

I don't like where this arms race is going... by mario_grgic · 2010-09-09 00:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

By the sound of it, Apple's next move will be to lock down the devices at the hardware level (this gives them a good excuse) and they will have no second thoughts about doing it at all. This means even more locked down "trusted computing" devices in our future. And the sad thing is the consumers won't care either way.

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As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.

Re:I don't like where this arms race is going... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:25 · Score: 0

They have always locked devices down "at the hardware level".
That means at the boot ROM level. This is a bug apparently a bug in that boot ROM.
Re:I don't like where this arms race is going... by jisatsusha · 2010-09-09 00:26 · Score: 1

They already are locked down at the hardware level, since the 3GS was released. The device will only load a signed bootrom, the bootrom will only load a signed kernel.
Re:I don't like where this arms race is going... by whisper_jeff · 2010-09-09 00:27 · Score: 0

Citation please. Short of spreading FUD, do you have any proof of your claim or are you just talking out of your ass?
Re:I don't like where this arms race is going... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:42 · Score: 0

people will still find a way.
Re:I don't like where this arms race is going... by Custard+Horse · 2010-09-09 00:50 · Score: 1

By the sound of it, Apple's next move will be to lock down the devices at the hardware level (this gives them a good excuse) and they will have no second thoughts about doing it at all. This means even more locked down "trusted computing" devices in our future. And the sad thing is the consumers won't care either way.
English comprehension
"Apple is the new Microsoft and Google (Android) is the new Linux"
Is this statement sarcastic or ironic? Discuss. [2 marks]
Re:I don't like where this arms race is going... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:03 · Score: 0

Whisper_jeff.... instead of asking for citation, RTFA.
Re:I don't like where this arms race is going... by SpooForBrains · 2010-09-09 01:53 · Score: 2, Informative

They already ARE locked down at the hardware level, genius. Just try installing a custom firmware on an iphone or ipod.

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"The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
Re:I don't like where this arms race is going... by L4t3r4lu5 · 2010-09-09 02:59 · Score: 1

Ok, smartypants. Which one of the jailbreaks listed requires you to open up the casing of your iPhone or iPod and remove a chip, bridge a track, or otherwise physically alter the device in any other way than by pressing keys at a specific time or running some specific app?

These are software exploits. They're locked down at the software level. It's low level software (bootloader), but it's still software.

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Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Re:I don't like where this arms race is going... by jonwil · 2010-09-09 03:13 · Score: 1

What I want to know is why Apple hasn't modified things so that iPhones/iPod touches/iPads will refuse to connect to the App Store unless its running the latest version. And make iTunes refuse to talk to a phone not running the latest version unless its to do an update.
For the original iPhone that cant be upgraded to 4.x, you can detect that phone specifically and refuse to load unless the latest version that runs on it is installed.
Basically force the latest version on everyone no matter what and deny them features if they dont have it. (like how games for PSP wont run unless you have the latest firmware)
Re:I don't like where this arms race is going... by LingNoi · 2010-09-09 04:23 · Score: 1

Hi smartypants, jail breaking isn't installing custom firmware, please read next time.

Because they are full of shit by Sycraft-fu · 2010-09-09 00:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

If you have a system that people can get at and modify, then there is no such thing as a secure system. This idea that you can make an OS that can't be exploited is BS. Certainly things can be done to make it harder, but you can't make it impossible.

You discover that in the event you do need something, like say a database server, that is "exploit free" that to get it you have to cope with a lot of restrictions. The company that sells it to you, someone like IBM, will be providing the hardware, OS, software, and so on. They'll have tested it all extensively to make sure that there aren't any hidden issues that might cause a crash. Once in place, you don't get to touch it. There is no installing software on it, no messing with it. It will run what they say it'll run. If changes need to be made, it'll be a lengthy and expensive process.

What's more, nothing will get at it directly. It'll be behind a firewall (not necessarily the kind of firewall you are used to thinking of), inputs will be sanitized, that kind of thing. It will only get inputs that are clean, in the correct format, that can't cause problems. Needless to say, it'll be in a secure server room and your staff had better leave it alone.

When you totally control a system like that, yes with testing you can be pretty sure it is "bug free" and "exploit free". However for something going out to the masses? No such thing. The person with physical access can pretty much do anything, but even if not security is hard to guarantee. When arbitrary apps can be installed, some of those can be evil. Things like filtering them (as is done with the app store) can reduce it, but not eliminate it.

Re:Because they are full of shit by sjames · 2010-09-09 05:03 · Score: 1

The previous jailbreak was accomplished by clicking a link to fetch a PDF document. There was no need for the usual physical access techniques and it could easily have been implemented as a drive-by.
That goes well beyond the physical access==game over situation.
Re:Because they are full of shit by commodore64_love · 2010-09-09 06:04 · Score: 1

Question -
I thought the US Government's Copyright Office ruled that Apple can no longer stop users from jail-breaking. It is now legal to do so. (Bit surprised it was the US who did it, rather than consumer-friendly EU.)

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:Because they are full of shit by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 09:29 · Score: 0

Correct
Now a question for you. What does this have to do with the post you are responding to?
Re:Because they are full of shit by Lanteran · 2010-09-09 10:36 · Score: 1

If you have a system that people can get at and modify, then there is no such thing as a secure system.
well that's the thing- apple products are relatively secure (by closed source standards, anyway) precisely because of the fact that they barley allow any modification by the end user. I've used a variety of OSes and OS X was the only one that was more constraining than windows. I personally hate it, but its actually probably a good idea for the majority of users.

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"People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.

No problems by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:21 · Score: 0

The next software update will lock up your Apple Product.

You will then be instructed to return the appliance to your local friendly MacStore, where the Steveoids will flash the firmware with new code to improve your user experience, incidentally rendering your Appliance secure, non-exploitable and virus free whilst deleting all non-approved software that is infesting the equipment.

Whats not to like there? :-)

Reminds me of the song "California Uber Alles"

"Suede denim secret police" remind you of anyone?

The Best Solution by X3J11 · 2010-09-09 00:27 · Score: 2

The best solution to the Apple Problem is simple: do not buy their products.

Perhaps Jobs and co. will realize that many of their end users are not the mindless idiots they seem to think everyone is.

Personally I will never purchase or endorse Apple products. I am, like many Slashdotters, the family computer fixit guy, but I've made it quite clear that I won't touch anything by Apple. My computers are iTunes and Quicktime free for a reason.

This was posted from my Galaxy S Vibrant, easily rooted (I do not envy the people who have to jump through hoops just to make their devices do what they want them to).

Re:The Best Solution by nOw2 · 2010-09-09 00:34 · Score: 4, Funny

I am, like many Slashdotters, the family computer fixit guy,.
Well, that's what you get if your family doesn't use Macs.
Re:The Best Solution by Combatso · 2010-09-09 00:46 · Score: 1

exactly right, let the market decide.... shit, they already did, and the market likes the iPhone/pod/pad... oh well... what else ya got?
Re:The Best Solution by X3J11 · 2010-09-09 01:22 · Score: 1

Well, that's what you get if your family doesn't use Macs.
My uncle loves his Mac. He also bought my cousin an Apple notebook. But it extends to iPhone, iPod, iPad, and every other i(diot) device.
I bought my father a Sony MP3 player rather than an iPod. He kinda gripes about it, since even Sony themselves sell more iPod accessories than accessories for his device, but once I begin extolling the "evils" of Apple... well, his eyes kinda glaze over and he eventually just walks away.
Re:The Best Solution by X3J11 · 2010-09-09 01:25 · Score: 1

exactly right, let the market decide.... shit, they already did, and the market likes the iPhone/pod/pad... oh well... what else ya got?
Absolutely nothing. I was hoping someone else would be a bit more insightful than I. I'm really only good at pointing out the extremely obvious, and providing anecdotal evidence supporting it. :D
Re:The Best Solution by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 02:04 · Score: 0

Oh, Macs never break. Well, why do I have 3 in my office that I'm currently working on?
Re:The Best Solution by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 02:21 · Score: 0

Implying that macs dont need to be "fixed"... ever? There is a bullshit flag on that play.
Re:The Best Solution by mcgrew · 2010-09-09 02:25 · Score: 1

Perhaps Jobs and co. will realize that many of their end users are not the mindless idiots they seem to think everyone is.

Just because someone isn't technically savvy doesn't make them a mindless idiot. I know a whole lot of otherwis extremely intelligent people who can't plug a DVD into a TV. One fellow I know has an IQ of 160, is a math whiz (MBA who made millions at one point before dropping out and giving it all up), chessmaster, yet has to find someone to put minutes on his phone for him.
Apple is for people like him, not people like us. We aren't the demographic Apple is after.

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Free Martian Whores!
Re:The Best Solution by Inda · 2010-09-09 02:46 · Score: 1

So funny.

I have a paper plate that never breaks. Maybe because I never use it?

A guy at work asked me how to watch P2P sport. So I told him "SopCast".

The same guy, a few days later, told me he had a Mac and Sopcast wouldn't install. So I gave him a link to a page where you could get it running using a few helper apps.

He hasn't spoken to me since. He was too stupid to install a few apps and configure them... with a really nice set of instructions.

Macs. Can't break them, can't use them for anything interesting.

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This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
Re:The Best Solution by L4t3r4lu5 · 2010-09-09 03:00 · Score: 1

Fanboi alert! Obligatory "Linux never breaks and is totally open and configurable. Lrn2play, nub!1" retaliatory post deployed.

kthxbai.

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Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Re:The Best Solution by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 03:53 · Score: 0

Fuck this bullshit. Seriously. I've worked as a Mac tech and I can say for certain that the Mac also has funky software issues, weird behaviour and stuff that just isn't working(tm). So please spread the stupid some place else.

Bit off topic but a wired hack? by AHuxley · 2010-09-09 00:41 · Score: 1

http://redpark.com/news.html
I would like a wired networking option. Would this be hard for a home hacker?

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Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"

Raise the white flag, Steve? by TheDarkMaster · 2010-09-09 00:46 · Score: 1

Steve instead of trying to forever prevent iPhone users use the same as they want, he could simply accept the fact that users want to use their phones as they want and not as he wants. I am an example of those who like the style of the iPhone, but will never buy one because I'd be "stuck" when he says that I can or can not do. It's the same thing that you buy a computer and the manufacturer say that you can only use the their operating system (and the SO sucks or does not do what you want or need).

The iPhone has the potential to be the IBM PC from the cellphones, all he need for this is the user has the freedom to use the unit in the manner he deems better.

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Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time

Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by dwightk · 2010-09-09 01:03 · Score: 1

That would make the negotiations with media and cell companies go well, I'm sure.

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Like anyone can even know that
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by TheDarkMaster · 2010-09-09 01:08 · Score: 1

hahaha, I agree. But we have a interesting dilema here... What is more important: make media and cell companies happy, or make yours cell buyers (we) happy?

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Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:15 · Score: 0

The iPhone has the potential to be the IBM PC from the cellphones, all he need for this is the user has the freedom to use the unit in the manner he deems better.
Apple does one thing better than anyone else: snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
It happened in 1984 and it will happen again. Steve is a lucky enough fellow, but he's a damn slow learner.
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by dtml-try+MyNick · 2010-09-09 01:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

You're forgetting something important here I think.
Only a very small fraction of the iPhone users actually attempt to jailbreak their device. The majority of people is perfectly happy with the way it works and have no desire to 'hack' it.
Let's not forget that apart from the very closed system it uses the iPhone itself is very very well designed in terms of usability.
When I bought my 3GS it didn't even come with a manual. Just the phone and some cables and stuff. Now, that's a bold statement.
Telling your customers 'our device is so user friendly that you don't need a manual, it just works and you'll understand completely how it works without any help needed at all'.
Steve's fight against jailbreaking is a useless fight and he knows that. I think apple only tries to not let it get out of hand. But I don't think it worries them too much. 90% of their customers don't care about it anyway and rightfully so.
Of course, when I saw a HTC desire running Android in action I ditched my iPhone and orderded a Desire rightaway ;-)

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Life starts at the end of your comfort zone.
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by silentcoder · 2010-09-09 02:19 · Score: 1

>The iPhone has the potential to be the IBM PC from the cellphones,
Aaah but you forget the IBM PC destroyed apple's once dominant position as PC supplier. So much so that nobody even refers to apple's computers as PC's anymore even though they invented them and coined the term in the first place !
If THAT didn't teach Steve that in the long run "open do whatever you want with it" always wins then nothing will.
On the other hand - apple's computers are STILL closed up "do only what we tell you" with them. Apple has positioned itself in antithesis to the clear market demand in PC's and manages to cling on to a niche market there for years now.
In the phone world - they are in exactly the same position now that they were in PC's in the 80's, but Android is the IBM PC of the phone world - which is why apple is trying so hard to shut it down or at least slow it down. This is why apple is suing HTC for example.
The thing is - unless by some sort of anti-miracle they get Android killed on legal grounds apple's phone position is, just like the PC position was, only going to last for a while. The open nature (and resulting lower cost) of android will attract more and more users, just as IBM PC's nature did in the 80's.
Ultimately the iPhone will end up just as Macs are today - a minority in the phone business used by a small niche-market of die-hard fans.
We've seen this exact history happen 20 years ago with the same company - and people made the exact same claims about why Apple was right and the PC would fail... there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the outcome will be any different. Steve Jobs doesn't actually care. He is a CEO - CEO's are in it for share-price today.
His job won't depend on iPhone still being the market leader five years from now - it depends on being the market leader now. Five years from now Apple will be doing something else as their main income you can depend on it, just as the iPhone now makes far more money than Mac sales do.

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Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by L4t3r4lu5 · 2010-09-09 03:06 · Score: 1

Right now, the only thing the iPhone has over the Desire is Angry Birds. Moblox just isn't the same.

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Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 04:14 · Score: 0

On the other hand - apple's computers are STILL closed up "do only what we tell you" with them. Apple has positioned itself in antithesis to the clear market demand in PC's and manages to cling on to a niche market there for years now.
Uh... what parallel universe do you live in? The only restriction on Apple Macs over PCs is Apple's refusal to license clones (even ones you build yourself), and it's the only restriction there has ever been (and even that was lifted for a while in the 90s). These days, Macs are more open than PCs, they even ship with development tools for free.
Given that the MacOS is their own IP, they are well within their rights to refuse to license it on other devices (even if it's a shitty thing to do). They aren't alone in this either - try getting a license for OpenVMS for Itanium hardware without an HP sticker on it, or more recently with the license changes, Solaris on non-Oracle hardware. NONE of those companies prevent you installing NetBSD, Linux or even Windows (if it runs) on their hardware. Their behavior is shitty, sure, but in reality they are primarily restricting what other companies can do rather than you.
The situation on the iPhone is completely different, and incredibly dumb. With the iOS devices, Apple does it's best to prevent you doing anything with the hardware (that you own) that they haven't officially sanctioned which is more in line with the behavior of games console vendors who, (like Apple with the app store) take a cut of the money. This policy is wildly anti-consumer and completely unacceptable. Worse, in the case of iOS, it's made every single Mac on the planet less secure, because there is now a high-profile target (iOS) which shares code-base and therefore vulnerabilities with OS-X.
Despite owning lots of Macs (amongst other computers) there is no way in hell I would ever buy an iPhone for this very reason. Android is a good solution, but even better is the Nokia N900 which runs Linux and is completely open.
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by tepples · 2010-09-09 04:41 · Score: 1

cell companies
Why not just leave them out of it? One can walk into an electronics store and buy a pocket computer with a cellular radio, and then walk into a carrier's store and buy a SIM-only plan. This even works in the United States as long as the carrier is T-Mobile, which offers the SIM-only "Even More Plus" plan.
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by tepples · 2010-09-09 04:46 · Score: 1

These days, Macs are more open than PCs, they even ship with development tools for free.
Mac OS X has Xcode. Windows has Visual Studio Express and XNA Game Studio. Or are you referring to the cost of high-speed Internet access to download these tools?

Apple does it's best to prevent you doing anything with the hardware (that you own) that they haven't officially sanctioned which is more in line with the behavior of games console vendors
In fact, the iOS developer program business model is all but indistinguishable from the XNA Creators Club model that preceded it.

Android is a good solution, but even better is the Nokia N900 which runs Linux and is completely open.
Surprisingly here, Apple wins on price: for someone who doesn't want another phone line, an N900 is more expensive than an iPod touch.
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 05:52 · Score: 0

When I bought my 3GS it didn't even come with a manual.

I cant remember the last time I've got a manual with a phone/pc/laptop/etc.
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by drcheap · 2010-09-09 07:53 · Score: 1

When I bought my 3GS it didn't even come with a manual. Just the phone and some cables and stuff. Now, that's a bold statement.
Telling your customers 'our device is so user friendly that you don't need a manual, it just works and you'll understand completely how it works without any help needed at all'.
Why include a manual, nobody bothers to RTFM anyway. I mean look, you can't even get the 'nerd' crowd here on /. to even RTFA before posting up some cowardly and/or idiotic comment.
And for the record, I didn't read this article either ;)
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by drcheap · 2010-09-09 08:09 · Score: 1

The thing is - unless by some sort of anti-miracle they get Android killed on legal grounds apple's phone position is, just like the PC position was, only going to last for a while. The open nature (and resulting lower cost) of android will attract more and more users, just as IBM PC's nature did in the 80's.
Ultimately the iPhone will end up just as Macs are today - a minority in the phone business used by a small niche-market of die-hard fans.
We've seen this exact history happen 20 years ago with the same company - and people made the exact same claims about why Apple was right and the PC would fail... there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the outcome will be any different. Steve Jobs doesn't actually care.
There is one big change that has happened in the past 20 years though...the user base of computing devices.
20 years ago (and actually, it was more than 20 years ago, damn I'm getting old) when Steve tried to take over the home compute market, the market was flooded with computer geeks, engineers, and other such people who were technologically inclined. They all wanted something cool and new, and loved to tinker with it and figure out what it could and could not do, or rather what they could or could not make it do.
Fast forward to recent years...the market is flooded with general consumers who are completely ignorant people who simply want what marketing departments boast about. They could care less if the iWhatever has the same computing potential as a high end home computer from only 5-10 years prior, yet fits in a pocket. They just want to take a picture, upload it to their facebook, tweet about it, then play the millionth re-make of solitaire or bust-a-move. All this can be done on their mind-control^h^h^h^h^h^hlocked down device.
The point is, that market of people who don't know/care about all the fun things you can do if you fully exploit the capabilities of the hardware is huge now, and that's why Apple's "small niche" isn't a niche, it's mainstream.
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by dwightk · 2010-09-09 11:10 · Score: 1

Because T-Mobile isn't a major carrier, and it is the only one that offers that in the U.S.

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Like anyone can even know that
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by dwightk · 2010-09-09 11:11 · Score: 1

If you don't make the former happy first, you don't get a chance to make the latter happy.

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Like anyone can even know that
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by TheDarkMaster · 2010-09-09 13:51 · Score: 1

And if you do not make the latter happy, you do not get any money. Got the dilema?

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Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by exomondo · 2010-09-09 16:05 · Score: 1

Now, that's a bold statement. Telling your customers 'our device is so user friendly that you don't need a manual, it just works and you'll understand completely how it works without any help needed at all'.
Except that's absolute bullshit
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by dwightk · 2010-09-10 01:05 · Score: 1

they seem to be doing fine there

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Like anyone can even know that
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by TheDarkMaster · 2010-09-10 02:59 · Score: 1

It's because he's "cheating" ... People buy the iPhone more because he is a symbol of status (thanks to propaganda and the high price), and status symbols do not need to be usefull or customizable. But when they see a competitor that is interesting enought and useful, the game is over.

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Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by Oddscurity · 2010-09-10 04:30 · Score: 1

There's a beta version of Angry Birds on the Android Market right now. I've just downloaded it.

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Indeed!
Re:Raise the white flag, Steve? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-11 03:34 · Score: 0

They also made opening the sim slot counter-intuitive so I had to look it up online when my sister got a 3GS, yes I did see the inlcuded tool and the hole to poke to open the slot, but I tend not to randomly poke things in holes since for all I knew the hole was for a microphone and sticking something in it would break it. It is stupidity and arrogance not to include at least a basic qick setup guide.

Re:Incoming sockpuppet troll odies/sopssa/SquarePi by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:49 · Score: 0

He's a subscriber, obviously. ./ admins should ban his account(s) for disparaging other members, even if all of them are himself.

The Admiral by MooMooFarm · 2010-09-09 00:50 · Score: 1

"called iOS 4.1 a trap"

Ackbar would be proud.

Jailbreaking is crap anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 00:53 · Score: 0

After I installed iOS 4 on my iPhone 3G and had the pain of the slowness that followed, I decided to go back to iOS 3.1.3, at the same time I decided to Jailbreak my phone and install Cydia.

All the apps that I looked at on my jailbroken phone, were buggy, poorly written, rubbish. 90% of what you could download were wallpapers and ringtones. After 2 day I went back to iOS 4 for some quality software.

I'm just upgrading to iOS 4.1 so hopefully the speed will finally return.

Re:Jailbreaking is crap anyway by nOw2 · 2010-09-09 01:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is my experience of jailbreaking the around the time of 3.0-3.1. The quality of the external software was dire, and it pushed the cost of maintenance away from someone else (Apple) and onto me.
I like playing around with buggy cheap software as much as any other Linux user, but you don't want an app to crash while calling the emergency services!
Re:Jailbreaking is crap anyway by LingNoi · 2010-09-09 04:33 · Score: 1

I like playing around with buggy cheap software as much as any other Linux user,
Linux may have bugs just like any other software but your strawman of linux being unstable and cheap is just stupid.
Go away troll.

Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Android? by King_TJ · 2010-09-09 00:59 · Score: 1

As a former iPhone user who recently switched to Android based phones (not because I disliked the iPhone, mind you - but simply because I disliked AT&T), I've seen a weird "disconnect" between ultimately similar issues with both platforms.
The media is constantly harping on the iPhone and its current jailbreak situation. Is firmware X broken? What does the LAW say about that? Is Steve Jobs pissed about it? What happens when firmware X.1 is released? Will jailbreakers skip the minor release and save their good exploit for a major rev? Stay tuned!!

Meanwhile, over in Android-land, you've got all these new makes and models of phones coming out on a weekly basis that use some variant of the OS, and everyone seems to need to be able to "root" the phones, or else they can't use some of the apps (such as various wi-fi tethering programs, or a version of "wireshark" for Android). Also, it seems it's a necessary first step so hackers can get into the phone to "dump" the ROM code, analyze it, and try to make custom firmware based off it it with the required drivers for phone-specific cameras and other hardware rolled into them. I hear VERY little in the news about ANY of this, however. (I bought a new Kyocera Zio Android to use with my Cricket wireless service, and it took the better part of a week to figure out how to get it rooted, since most message forums just had a few comments from people saying "I heard someone rooted their Zio already, but now I hear their phone isn't working right anymore...." and no solid info. I finally found a version of a "universal root" script I could email to the phone and run, and got root successfully - though the script author doesn't even list the Zio on his compatible phones list. Since the Zio still only comes with Android 1.6, there's a lot of incentive for people to roll some custom 2.1 or 2.2 firmware for it .... but again, I won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

Nobody "looses" anything due to jailbreaking by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 01:00 · Score: 0

4. I loose support.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

This sort of thing will continue: who's to blame? by wowbagger · 2010-09-09 01:24 · Score: 1

This sort of crap - companies locking you out of your stuff - will continue.

Do you want to know who's to blame?

It's that creepy person who is following you around - you know, the one who's always in the mirror looking at you?

Here's what needs to happen to make this stuff NOT happen:
1) Customers need to DEMAND sales contracts that PROHIBIT companies from unilaterally changing the contract after the fact.
2) Customers need to DEMAND sales contracts that PROHIBIT removal of features from devices after sale without forcing an immediate renegotiation of the sale contract, including the right of the customer to DEMAND immediate refunding of the FULL sale price.
3) Customers need to REFUSE to do business with anybody who will not abide by #1 and #2 above.
4) Voters need to DEMAND legislation to enforce #1 and #2 above, with real teeth that will really bite the companies in the wallet should they violate them.
5) Voters need to REFUSE to vote for anybody who will not enact #4.

Since the probability that a significant number of people will actually go for #3 ("Bu-Bu-But I wants my shineee!"), and the probability that voters will actually do #5 ("Bu-Bu-But if I don't vote for a lizard then the wrong lizard might get in office! Besides, he may be a lizard, but he's MY lizard!"), the probability of this actually happening is zero squared - still zero.

All you can do is to live by those rules yourself, and accept there are things you won't have.

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www.eFax.com are spammers

Re:Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Andro by AndrewNeo · 2010-09-09 01:28 · Score: 1

It's not news in the Android world because it's not so much a fight. You do see articles on how the Droid X / Droid 2 have locked bootloaders/eFuses, but you also see news on things like CyanogenMod 6 coming out. Everything about jailbreaking is news in the Apple world because it's Not Supposed To Happen or is Hard (for the hackers) To Accomplish.

um. power is about control by Colin+Smith · 2010-09-09 01:29 · Score: 0, Troll

the iphone is powerless not powerful .

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Deleted

Exactly what happened to the Wii by TheSpoom · 2010-09-09 01:29 · Score: 1

Team Twiizers discovered a vulnerability in one of the low-level boot files of the Wii, which Nintendo couldn't fix since it was in ROM. They've since started shipping new units with an updated boot ROM that patches the hole, but all older Wiis are basically permanently vulnerable. Something similar will likely happen with iOS devices.

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It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs

Re:Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Andro by silentcoder · 2010-09-09 01:43 · Score: 4, Interesting

As an android user - let me enlighten you.
The android platform is DESIGNED to be rootable and hackable, the phone made by the android developers - the Nexus 1 comes with rooting just a click away.

There ARE other manufacturers who try to make rooting harder - none of them have made it particularly impossible, I rooted mine in an hour. But you cannot blame this on the platform. It's not Android that made HTC obfuscate their bootloader, that is HTC's fault alone. In apple's case the hardware and software are always from the same source. In android's case it almost never is - so that adds an important distinction.

Finally - nobody roots their systems because we "have to in order to use a feature". We do it because by using thirdparty versions of android we can get certain features sooner, or run newer versions of the OS - or hell just enjoy having a root shell on our phones - some of us have FUN with that.

I rooted my HTC desire to get CyanoGenMod for Froyo 2.2 - about a week before HTC brought out an OTA update for Sense based on it. Didn't bug me much - I had no guarantee of said version coming now or ever, I had no wish to wait for it and I liked being able to upgrade when I wanted to. I also having now used both prefer CyanoGenMod over Sense - it's a stabler UI with less bugs and a cleaner, slicker interface to work with while still being the same essential android in it's core design (of course that part is a subjective judgement but speaking for myself - I prefer it).

Having rooted once - I now control the bootloader with my own recovery version and goldcard which means I can now install any rom code I want. I can swap at any time. I can backup the current rom try something else and restore it if I wanted to...

I like having power over my device. Apple actively tries to stop me getting it. Android actively encourages it and even when a device maker tries to follow the apple approach once broken it's broken for good - and without the associated risks of jailbreaking an iPhone. I'll still get updates, I will still get fixes because many third-parties provide them. I still have the official appmarket working just fine and I know it always will because google makes it freely available so modmakers can provide packages to install it (though they are not allowed to preinstall it inside the mod).

In short - the reason you see such a huge disconnect is because you're comparing apples with oranges. It only looks similar from a distance - in reality the two platforms approach to user restriction couldn't be further removed from each other and rooting an android is a much lesser deal than rooting an iphone.
Iphone's are jailbroken to enable power the user should have had the choice to get in the first place.
Androids are rooted because hacking devices is FUN.

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Unicode killed the ASCII-art *

This is silly; Apple wants this to occur by WindBourne · 2010-09-09 01:48 · Score: 1

Seriously, Apple wants this to occur. They do not want to have MS style security where every virus and worm writers has loads of openings to work with and steal your stuff, but, they obviously do not want the phone totally locked down. By having it be rooted, then more and more hackers will write interesting code. And it looks to the multi-media and transport company think that Apple is working to do their job, when in fact, they are not.

Apple wants to block the crackers, but desperately needs hackers developing new ideas. And a good hacker needs to get to features that the none apple companies want to deny.

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I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.

The next iOS is Jailbroken already by Centurix · 2010-09-09 01:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

If they're releasing Jailbreaks this close to the release of an OS then it seems to make sense that they've got a list of vulnerabilities stashed away somewhere. All they do when Apple releases the next one is go down the list. The time between the OS being released and the Jailbreak is only going to be them tidying up the distribution of the Jailbreak so people can do it to phones in the Apple store. The Jailbreakers would be foolish to unleash the lowest level Jailbreak at this point as they could end up with nowhere to go after this. I was surprised with the last one where you could just visit a web page to get the job done. Good job the page just Jailbroke the phone and didn't decide to steal all your data or install something nasty that somehow managed to survive even an iTunes restore.

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Task Mangler

Re:The next iOS is Jailbroken already by BitZtream · 2010-09-09 03:29 · Score: 0, Troll

The guys who make the jailbreaks aren't doing it so you can use your phone unrestricted.
For them, it has never been about using the phone unrestricted.
For the guys making the jailbreaks its about who gets the attention for doing it. Who broke through Apples walled garden.
Thats why you hear about and see these exploits make it into the wild before the OS itself is released, because they don't have the patients to hold off until after its been released.
Its the same reason idiots go into the Apple store and jailbreak phones, its all about attention, nothing more.
The jail breaking community is pretty good at fucking itself over. Jailbreakme.com is a shining example of out right stupidity. Publish a big, obviously bad exploit on the web and make sure it gets media attention ... I never could have guessed Apple would immediately turn out a point release to fix the exploit since now its clear to everyone (hacker or otherwise) that you can get into the phone easy and do whatever you want.
Jail breakers are Apples best security team, their arrogance and constant need to have someone be impressed with their work means Apple gets to just watch them and get notified of exploits as soon as they are found. To me, their behavior is a clear indication that mommy needs to give them more attention and at least a little common sense.
I'd love to play poker with one of them, it'd be the easiest game ever.

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Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Re:The next iOS is Jailbroken already by ceoyoyo · 2010-09-09 06:41 · Score: 1

OS 4.1 has been released to developers for quite a while. The vulnerability in question was actually in previous versions (also released to developers for even longer), and the iPhone Dev Team specifically said they weren't making a jailbreak for those intermediate versions in the hope that Apple wouldn't fix the vulnerability in question until after 4.1.
They didn't hack 4.1 in a day. They hacked 4.02 some time ago and held onto the exploit hoping Apple wouldn't find and fix it.
Re:The next iOS is Jailbroken already by Centurix · 2010-09-09 11:18 · Score: 1

Yes, at one point I considered that the jailbreak team was put together by Apple. But then my conspiracy warning light started flashing.
I think the Troll mod was a little uncalled for, settle down Apple people.

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Task Mangler
Re:The next iOS is Jailbroken already by Centurix · 2010-09-09 11:19 · Score: 1

Makes better sense, didn't consider the developer pre-release.

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Task Mangler

apple should just be a little more open with the a by Joe+The+Dragon · 2010-09-09 02:08 · Score: 1

apple should just be a little more open with the app store and make it free to have free apps in it. Let's say no $99 year fee to have free apps in store.

My first thought is... by Daniel+Phillips · 2010-09-09 02:14 · Score: 1

Since Steve has to make hardware changes anyway in order to keep out those dastardly freedom loving jailbreakers, how about fixing his antenna while he's at it?

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Have you got your LWN subscription yet?

Re:This sort of thing will continue: who's to blam by ledow · 2010-09-09 02:20 · Score: 2

Or, you could just stop buying that shit. Sorta like number 3 but no nearly so complex and inter-related. The fact that lots of people still do means that the majority of them don't care about those same things.

I don't know how many times I've had to explain to people about the iTunes installation limits, DVD/BluRay region encoding, HDCP and other similar things, but it doesn't stop *anyone* from actually using that service/product. We that actually care are in the minority. And it's *incredibly* simple for anyone to get their head around - if you don't like the terms of what you signed up to, don't sign up to it.

Unfortunately, almost everyone I know has a contract-paid mobile phone, sometimes with upgrades every year even if they don't want them, has an un-cracked DVD player or DVD software, has things bought from the Wii store that they can't easily move onto another Wii, has a car that won't allow them to use third party parts without destroying the entire warranty, etc.etc.etc.

There's an awful lot of consumer protection enshrined in law that these EULA's claim to override. Most of the time they don't, because you can't give away certain rights, especially in a "shrinkwrap" license that you haven't signed. But how many lawsuits are there over them? How many people just re-buy a TomTom map when they break their device and want to move it onto their new one? People just don't care because, in everyday life, in ordinary usage, there's no need to worry about such things. Accepting that you "can't" copy something and buying yet-another-copy takes significantly time, effort and money (if you think of your time as being billable) than fighting for the opposite.

Such apathy is rampant. You can't change that amount of people's minds that quickly, especially not for something that has a very minor impact on their life.

And the rules are ever so simple: Don't do business with companies that play these games, don't buy products that have these "features".

That's always been the rule, whether you're talking pyramid schemes, endowment mortgages, oxygen-free gold-plated audio cables or whatever else. If the product will cost you time/money because of a problem, or doesn't do what it says it does, don't put money their way.

People like myself have a running blacklist. There are products/companies that I will not give money to again. People assume that I'm actually not enforcing it that strictly but actually there's yet to be a single company that's pulled itself off that list. It includes everything from mobile phone companies that like to hang up on me, to the chip shop where the woman was extremely grumpy and grouchy but still wanted to take my money, to the IT suppliers that I've used during the course of my career, to the software manufacturers that have ignored repeated bug reports, to the GPS manufacturer that refused to refund me after changing the way their "Whole of Europe" maps worked (making me connect to the Internet to download and install each country's map every time I cross a border kinda spoils the point of having a "Whole of Europe" map in the first place), to the bank that laughed at my mortgage application (whereas the little mortgage shop next door gladly gave me a better deal without query and has had many years of perfect, on-time accurate payments every since).

My personal blacklist does not dent Sony, or HDCP manufacturers, or the mobile phone companies one bit. I'm not stupid, I know that. But it sure hurts the local shops, small businesses and general reputation of them among my friends and colleagues.

Re:Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Andro by BasilBrush · 2010-09-09 02:25 · Score: 1

Iphone's are jailbroken to enable power the user should have had the choice to get in the first place.
Androids are rooted because hacking devices is FUN.

For far greater numbers of people:

iPhones are jailbroken in order to rip off commercial apps.
Androids are jailbroken because phone manufacturers/networks are slow to/don't upgrade the OS to a recent version.

Fight what? by coryking · 2010-09-09 02:29 · Score: 0, Redundant

Those jailbreaks are only possible through exploits in the operating system. "jailbreak" is really an emphusium for "local root exploit" (or in some cases, "remote root exploit"). Would you rather they leave the local root exploit in the code?

Here is why jailbreaks are bad: do you really trust the code you just ran to do the right thing? It is like running a keygen as root as admin on XP (ie the default for win XP). Sure it might crack the program, but lots of those "harmless" keygen programs jnstallled other, not so harmless things like spyware and botnet clients.

The people who make these jailbreak apps do share a somewhat common lineage with the keygen scene. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those things are installing other, more "exciting" things as part if their payload. And if they aren't now, it is 100% likely somebody will. It may not be on the mainstream jailbreak download, but people are idiots and run things they download from anywhere. Download the wrong jailbreak and your iPad/iPhone will get hosed.

Re:Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Andro by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 02:30 · Score: 0

You just have to have a phone that the hackers are interested in, http://www.sdx-developers.com/, I was able to update my moment to 2.1, haven't gotten around to 2.2, months before sprint released a half-assed crippled version for the phone.

If it's designed to be rootable how come you cant? by SuperKendall · 2010-09-09 02:56 · Score: 1, Troll

The android platform is DESIGNED to be rootable and hackable

There are some Android phones you cannot currently root. If the system is really "designed to be rootable" as you assert, how come that is so?

By your definition iOS is "designed to be rootable" as well, since there is a root user you can get access to via jailbreaking.

It's slightly harder to get that root access on the iPhone but then it's just as hackable - actually more so since at root level code insertion (thanks to Objective C and method swizzling) into existing apps is dead simple, which means you can easily modify any application in small ways to do fun tweaks. If someone was interested in actually hacking on a system for fun iOS would be a lot easier to get going and really modify the hell out of.

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Where do they say that? by SuperKendall · 2010-09-09 03:03 · Score: 1

Apple always says Mac OS X and Apple products are secure, non-exploitable and virus free. How are there exploits then?

Really? Then you should be able to point us to any link where Apple says that.

Except you can't, because they don't.

What they (and Apple users) say, is that they are MORE secure than other platforms, that there are fewer exploits and you need worry far less about viruses. All those things are true, and remain true even though at times there are exploits found.

No system will ever be 100% secure, especially not on a physical device you control. But you can design enough layers of security into a product that for the average user, it is essentially secure.

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Where do they say that? by LingNoi · 2010-09-09 03:55 · Score: 4, Interesting

http://www.apple.com/macosx/security/
Very first sentence on the page..

Mac OS X doesn’t get PC viruses.
It's deceiving to the point of almost lying. You can whine about the finer points of that sentence and how a Mac isn't a PC etc, etc. However we all know that it's been specifically designed to fool those with less knowledge of computers.
No other industry would be able to get away with such "facts".
Re:Where do they say that? by Abcd1234 · 2010-09-09 05:06 · Score: 1, Flamebait

It's deceiving to the point of almost lying.
But... I'm confused... Mac OSX *doesn't* get PC viruses (and yes, any idiot on the street will know what they mean by "PC", given that distinction has been outlined in Apple ad campaigns for *years*). And that's a perfectly valid marketing tool, given that the vast majority of viruses out their target Windows on the PC.
So, what's the problem here, again?
Re:Where do they say that? by oogoliegoogolie · 2010-09-09 05:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

It's deceiving to the point of almost lying.
No, it really isn't. Only the anti-Mac fascists would say that about that statement. Do you complain as much as the 'Intel-inside' sticker? How many millions of ppl have been fooled into thinking that one sticker makes the system better? Or how about all those 'lowest TCO compared to Linux' studies that MS payed for ten years ago.
No other industry would be able to get away with such "facts".
Every industry from cars to diapers is full of these "facts"! Here's some:
-Every car manufacturer proclaims that every one of their cars is "best in it's class", but they never say what the class is, or the study was paid for they the company.
-Cereal that are advertised as 'Natural', which can mean anything.
-Or how about 'Fat-free" foods? Nowhere on the container will it say that the calories are still the same as the regular stuff because they replace the fat with sugar.
-Stores that have 0% financing, but they don't tell you up front that there is a $129 'Administrative fee'
Re:Where do they say that? by Khyber · 2010-09-09 06:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

'No, it really isn't.'
Yes, it really is. It is a misleading marketing tactic and it's improperly using technological terminology to fool a customer into thinking they're making the superior choice by purchasing an Apple product, when anyone with any real technical knowledge knows these claims are patently false.
Did you fail English class?

--
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Re:Where do they say that? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 07:10 · Score: 0

the problem is people are stupid. Especially the ones that buy apple because it doesn't get "PC viruses". why does that need repeating here, again?
Re:Where do they say that? by joeyblades · 2010-09-09 07:38 · Score: 1

How exactly would a less computer savvy person be fooled? Might they purchase a Mac thinking that they are less likely to get a virus on an unprotected machine and somehow be let down by that assumption?
What IS implied is that the average Mac user has to be less concerned about viruses and malware than the average PC user. Being a computer engineer and a user of both PCs and Macs I have to say that I can't find anything wrong with this implication.
Re:Where do they say that? by joeyblades · 2010-09-09 08:39 · Score: 1

Which claims are false?
Re:Where do they say that? by Idbar · 2010-09-09 08:46 · Score: 1

I don't like it either, but since they cannot execute .exe files, I guess in theory they could be right. If customers fail to read as "We won't get the viruses from Windows, but we may get our own". I guess that's the customer's problem.
Re:Where do they say that? by joeyblades · 2010-09-09 09:11 · Score: 1

Apple's security model goes far beyond not executing .exe files and it goes far beyond simply restricting code execution. It's actually one of the most advanced security models in the industry.
There are currently no known active viruses on Mac OS X, however the platform is certainly not immune from viruses... So yes... perhaps that's the customer's problem... eventually... but today... not a problem.
Re:Where do they say that? by Culture20 · 2010-09-09 09:22 · Score: 1

It's deceiving to the point of almost lying.
No, it really isn't.
Macs don't get PC viruses
Okay, if what they meant was "Macs don't get viruses designed for other operating systems" then they're right. But it has as much intellectual value as saying "Macs don't get carbon life-form viruses" or "Macs don't possess the capacity for 'evil intent' required for a conviction of murder". The marketing value is quite high though, because since the sentence doesn't make any sense in the context, the human mind tries to force a useful meaning: "They're telling me something good about their product. Well, it's obvious they can't possess the capacity for 'evil intent' and thus can't murder. Macs won't kill me!" All the while forgetting that Macs might be able to commit manslaughter. "Macs don't get PC viruses" is like "Macs don't get a Blue Screen of Death". It's a gray screen of death, but the thing people take away is that there is _no_ screen of death of any color.
Re:Where do they say that? by Culture20 · 2010-09-09 09:29 · Score: 1

What IS implied is that the average Mac user has to be less concerned about viruses and malware than the average PC user. Being a computer engineer and a user of both PCs and Macs I have to say that I can't find anything wrong with this implication.

Being a sysadmin maintaining Win/Lin/Mac, I have to say that Mac users are the worst offenders at downloading random crap off the web and running it willy nilly. If they were allowed sudo access, they'd be running keyloggers and other crap as root. The regular Mac users really do think that Mac OS X is magically invulnerable.
Re:Where do they say that? by Lanteran · 2010-09-09 10:41 · Score: 1

Yes, it can get all kinds of viruses from the microsoft office suite (such as macro viruses) which generally spread from windows computers.
//I hate the term PC, so much ambiguity...

--
"People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
Re:Where do they say that? by dangitman · 2010-09-09 10:47 · Score: 1

"PC" isn't technological terminology. It's more slang derived from a product's trademark. It can mean all kinds of things. Originally it meant "Personal Computer" then it meant IBM PC. Now it can mean either "Personal Computer" or be used to refer to machines which are the descendants of the IBM PC, machines running an OS from Microsoft.
If you wanted to be technical, you wouldn't use such a vague and meaningless term.

--
... and then they built the supercollider.
Re:Where do they say that? by exomondo · 2010-09-09 15:28 · Score: 1

But... I'm confused... Mac OSX *doesn't* get PC viruses (and yes, any idiot on the street will know what they mean by "PC", given that distinction has been outlined in Apple ad campaigns for *years*). And that's a perfectly valid marketing tool, given that the vast majority of viruses out their target Windows on the PC.
So, what's the problem here, again?
The problem is that there is no such thing as a 'PC virus', and they don't specify what they term to be a 'PC virus'. So, based on the standard definitions it would be a 'virus that affects a personal computer'.
Re:Where do they say that? by Abcd1234 · 2010-09-09 15:57 · Score: 1

The problem is that there is no such thing as a 'PC virus',
That's bullshit, and I think you know it.
Anyone whose ever seen an Apple commercial knows that when they refer to a "PC", they mean a Windows-powered x86 computer. Hell, even someone who hasn't seen one of those commercials would assume that "PC" means Windows-powered x86 computer, as that term is historically derived from "IBM PC".
If you don't understand this, the only thing I can assume is that you're either being deliberately obtuse, or you're an idiot.
Re:Where do they say that? by LingNoi · 2010-09-09 16:06 · Score: 1

There are currently no known active viruses on Mac OS X
One quick google proves you wrong. You're simply rehashing Apple's claims.
Re:Where do they say that? by Khyber · 2010-09-09 16:41 · Score: 1

Go look at the hardware difference between a "PC" and an "Apple."
NOT ONE.
Just the OS.
Everything else is 100% bullshit marketing.

--
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Re:Where do they say that? by exomondo · 2010-09-09 16:48 · Score: 1

If you don't understand this, the only thing I can assume is that you're either being deliberately obtuse, or you're an idiot.
No i think if that truly is the definition they are going for then they assume all their customers are idiots. It would make it a redundant, idiotic and pointless statement, which you've fallen for.
Re:Where do they say that? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 17:40 · Score: 0

Um, I'm seeing a lot of words twisted around, so let's quantify a bit:
* First claim:
Apple always says Mac OS X and Apple products are secure, non-exploitable and virus free.
* Response:
Then you should be able to point us to any link where Apple says that. Except you can't, because they don't.
* Claimant's citation:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/security/ [apple.com] Very first sentence on the page.. "Mac OS X doesn’t get PC viruses."
Analysis:
- Citation fails to include example of Apple claiming their products are 1. Secure (Apple does claim this, though), 2. Non-exploitable (Unlikely Apple actually claims this). Citation does include example where Apple claims "Mac OS X doesn't get PC viruses".
- We have a partial citation, though, to the responder's credit, she may have changed her argument had she known the claimant would only back up part of the claim.
- No one has actually cited a counter example to "Mac OS X doesn't get PC viruses". Apple are quite possibly being entirely accurate with this claim.
Sorry for the over-analysis. :p
Re:Where do they say that? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 18:14 · Score: 0

To the average consumer they might as well have said "Mac's don't get viruses", because that is how it would be interpreted.
The examples that you give are nowhere in line with apple's statement, and even if they are, you yourself are then lumping apple in with sleazy marketing tactics.
BTW. "Best in Class" from car manufactures is completely legitimate, the industry defines these classes. It'd be like saying the IPhone is the best computing device, as opposed to the best smart phone.
I think your somewhat missing the point, your arguments are based on everyone else does it so it's OK for apple to do it. MS was slammed for those TCO adverts.
The point is when companies deceive they get slammed, and I'm sure they appreciate their consumers running to their defense, but they make enough money that they have lawyers for that.
Re:Where do they say that? by dangitman · 2010-09-09 18:30 · Score: 1

NOT ONE.
Just the OS.
Right, but that's how people commonly phrase the difference; "Do you have a Mac or a PC?"

Everything else is 100% bullshit marketing.
Obviously not 100%, because people had been saying "Mac or PC" to refer to the difference between Windows and Mac OS for years before Apple started using it in their marketing. Apple just picked up the language people were already using.
Additionally, it's quite funny that you say "Did you fail English class?" in your previous post, when not only do you say "technological terminology" when the correct use is "technical terminology," you also fail to understand that English is a living language where usage and meaning is in flux, not fixed.

--
... and then they built the supercollider.
Re:Where do they say that? by Idbar · 2010-09-10 01:53 · Score: 1

The university I work at, showed that the first bot doing DoS was a Mac. I also have a labmate that couldn't open any application and had to clean install his MacBook. I'm involved with IT, and I know they have problems, but for some reason Apple users refuse to believe it. The guy of the MacBook literally said "Wow, this looks like windows, everything is so slow, and some windows don't even open". Go figure!
Re:Where do they say that? by Khyber · 2010-09-10 07:14 · Score: 2

"Obviously not 100%, because people had been saying "Mac or PC" to refer to the difference between Windows and Mac OS"
You don't know your history very well - that was back in the day when Apple's hardware was VASTLY different from the x86 architecture and it made SENSE to say "Do you have a Mac or PC?"
Now, the hardware is the EXACT SAME. There is no underlying architectural difference so saying "PC or Mac?" is nonsense, misleading, and again, 100% BULLSHIT.
"OSX or Windows?" is the proper question. Anything else is a pure bit of marketing bullshit.

--
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Re:Where do they say that? by joeyblades · 2010-09-16 11:38 · Score: 1

Sorry so late to reply. Server issues. Long story. I've looked and looked and the only Mac OS X virus I could find references to is not a virus at all, it's a trojan. And a security update has rendered it inoperable. So not a virus and not active.

Re:Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Andro by silentcoder · 2010-09-09 03:11 · Score: 1

Okay - that may be true.

The fact that every app I've ever wanted has been in the free section of the huge android marketplace certainly helps :D

Mind you, that included all the software I needed to root it. I could just install it on Sense and then run it - to disable the "security"... that's what I mean by a platform that actively encourages user exploration.

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Unicode killed the ASCII-art *

Re:If it's designed to be rootable how come you ca by silentcoder · 2010-09-09 03:15 · Score: 1

>There are some Android phones you cannot currently root. If the system is really "designed to be rootable" as you assert, how come that is so?

These restrictions are added by the hardware manufacturers and DEVIATE from the android design - they do not exist in the upstream platform. Designing it to be hackable ipso facto means it can be hacked to try and make it harder for other people to hack it again. I don't blame google for not forcing the handset makers to stick to their ideals - many do, and the one Google themselves shipped had no restrictions at all but the handset manufacturers are their customers just like the users - to force THEM to a certain business model would be just as restrictive as forcing a certain usage model on the users is. Google doesn't do that, and android is designed not to do that- if handset makers change it, you can't fault Android for that. It would be like faulting the manufacturer of a 12-guage because somebody else sawed the barrel shorter and made a sawn-off.

--
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *

How much of a security problem is this? by Zelgadiss · 2010-09-09 03:19 · Score: 1

If it isn't like the PDF exploit that can allow someone to pwn my phone from the web, I don't give a crap.

I think Jobs wants jailbreaking by swfranklin · 2010-09-09 03:48 · Score: 1

I think that Jobs doesn't really want to eliminate jailbreaking - just not make it so easy that everyone does it.

The fact that iPhones can be jailbroken (jailbreaked?) means that a lot of people who would not otherwise buy the phone, will go ahead and get it. Even those that jailbreak probably buy a few apps from Apple anyway - and Apple doesn't have to support any problems they have. It's a win-win for Apple, non-JB phones are easily supported and JB phones don't have to be.

Re:I think Jobs wants jailbreaking by ceoyoyo · 2010-09-09 06:54 · Score: 1

The fact that Apple hasn't changed the root password since the second beta release of the SDK is particularly telling.
Re:I think Jobs wants jailbreaking by drcheap · 2010-09-09 08:16 · Score: 1

The fact that iPhones can be jailbroken (jailbreaked?) means that a lot of people who would not otherwise buy the phone, will go ahead and get it.
Precisely. It's the only reason I even agreed to allow my company to get one for me.

T-Mobile Even More Plus by tepples · 2010-09-09 04:34 · Score: 1

That's all fine and good, but it is terribly difficult (if not impossible) to find a service plan that actually costs less if you already own a phone.

Two words: Tea. Mobile. I imagine that your complaint is that either A. that T-Mobile doesn't advertise Even More Plus or that B. Verizon and AT&T have better signal coverage than T-Mobile where you live.

Another consequence is that we suffer terribly from sticker shock if we have to replace a phone ourselves.

I think of a PDA or smartphone as a pocket computer roughly equal in CPU power to an entry-level subnotebook PC. How much does it cost to replace a netbook?

Re:T-Mobile Even More Plus by scrib · 2010-09-09 04:55 · Score: 1

It's not a complaint, it's a recognition of market conditions here. I'm aware of the T-Mobile plans, and those plans still work out cheaper to buy the phone with the plan. Such plans are also atypical.
What does the price of a netbook have to do with the price of a smartphone? Do a price check on MSRP of any smartphone and any netbook. Come back and report on your sticker-shock...

--
Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Tradition by tepples · 2010-09-09 04:38 · Score: 1

For the same reason millions of people buy gaming console?

As I understand it, people buy video game consoles rather than gaming video cards for PCs because the major video game publishers have a tradition against local multiplayer on PCs. Likewise, people buy iPod touch instead of an "Android pod touch" because until Archos's recent announcement, Android device manufacturers have had a tradition of not producing a device without a cellular radio.

Re:If it's designed to be rootable how come you ca by SuperKendall · 2010-09-09 05:13 · Score: 1

These restrictions are added by the hardware manufacturers and DEVIATE from the android design

If that were true they could not be called Android phones.

The do not deviate from the Android design at all, they simply wrap it.

Just as there is a layer of security around iOS that makes it hard for average users to get root access to get in trouble, Android by design also has a layer you must bypass to full open the platform. Some companies further harden that layer, but that layer is there by design.

I see only small difference between the two platforms in that regard, not anything fundamental.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Furthermore by ThatsNotPudding · 2010-09-09 05:36 · Score: 1

Apple devices will become more targeted as an Apple owner has demonstrably more income to be swiped rather than someone who owns a more commoditized product such as an LG phone or a Dell computer.

It's like getting a free N900 by tepples · 2010-09-09 05:42 · Score: 1

I'm aware of the T-Mobile plans, and those plans still work out cheaper to buy the phone with the plan.

The subsidy in the "Individual Talk + Text + Web" category comes out to $20 per month, or $480 over a 24-month period. That's enough to pay for a Nokia N900.

Such plans [like T-Mobile's SIM-only plan] are also atypical.

But why is that? Is it that T-Mobile has failed to advertise them?

What does the price of a netbook have to do with the price of a smartphone?

Comparing the MSRP of one product to the MSRP of a different yet functionally similar product helps people understand why unlocked smartphones cost so much more than the subsidized phones they're used to.

Do a price check on MSRP of any smartphone and any netbook.

Nokia N900: $400 on Google Products. ASUS Eee PC 3G: $400 on Amazon.

Re:If it's designed to be rootable how come you ca by silentcoder · 2010-09-09 05:57 · Score: 1

Ubuntu contains a layer to prevent the average user from gaining root access - it's easy to work around and they even presetup sudo to make it easy - but there's a restriction in the design there. If I sell you a prebuilt ubuntu with the sudoers file edited away - is it Ubuntu trying to stop you from getting root privileges at all or is it me ?

That's the difference. The equivalent to a "sudo" command is already in Android - the handset makers decide to which extent you are able to run it (e.g. what's in the sudoers file) - but Android's root access is no more restricted than that of Linux- it's there but of course it's not the USUAL way to run, you access root when you HAVE to - you don't use it for normal operations.

Linux distro's all set you up with a normal user account to work under and admonish you to only go to root when you NEED to. Android has exactly that same level of restriction. Handset manufacturers sometimes go to some effort to make it harder to excercise the ability to gain root that Android has but this is not an Android thing.
And deviating from the design doesn't prevent you calling it Android unless you deviate MUCH more radically than that. Ubuntu's approach to root passwords was entirely unique when they came up with it, but we didn't declare that Ubuntu isn't Linux !

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Unicode killed the ASCII-art *

Never buy... by rally2xs · 2010-09-09 06:05 · Score: 1

...anything that needs jailbreaking.

Re:apple should just be a little more open with th by ceoyoyo · 2010-09-09 06:43 · Score: 1

God no. The app store is full of crap as it is.

I would like to see Apple freely allow jailbreaking (at your own risk) and with it installing whatever apps you want, but the app store definitely needs to have a price of entry. I pay it (and have since the SDK came out) happily.

How to search for local product display? by tepples · 2010-09-09 06:56 · Score: 1

Where can I "take a look" at a Nokia N900 phone in Fort Wayne, Indiana? Back in May, I tried a Best Buy, RadioShack, and T-Mobile store, and none of them carried it. What's the best way to search for which local shops have a given product on public display?

Re:How to search for local product display? by maxume · 2010-09-09 11:14 · Score: 1

What are your criteria?
If you want to be sure that the store actually has the item, the best way is to check in person.
If you want the internets to provide you a list of stores that have the item, hahahahahahahahahahahaaha.

--
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.

Re:Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Andro by Buelldozer · 2010-09-09 07:02 · Score: 1

Mmmm. The following in regards to your 3rd paragraph:

If you're an Android user on Verizon you need to root in order to get the "Mobile HotSpot" and "WiFi tethering" features. These are features that were stripped from the OS by Verizon and you have to root in order to add them back. I'm sure I could find other cases, but that one will suffice.

It's not just the OS maker and the handset maker exerting influence over your device, it's also the connection provider.

If you're curious my Moto Droid is rooted, mostly because I wanted those two features.

What about iPod Touch users? by jbarr · 2010-09-09 07:37 · Score: 1

It seems that the REAL reason many people jailbreak is to unlock the PHONE portion so that they can use the phone on another carrier. but what about us iPod Touch users who simply want to jailbreak because there are useful applications available that Apple will not permit on AppStore. For example:

SBSettings

This lets me seamlessly enable and disable WiFi to save battery life. Why Apple won't do this is beyond me.

Backgrounder

Lets me control how multitasking works so that it actually is productive on my 2nd Gen iPod Touch.

Wiki2Touch

The best offline Wikipedia reader available.

--
My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!

Re:Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Andro by silentcoder · 2010-09-09 07:43 · Score: 1

Okay so some people do it to get back features that third parties have stripped, I hadn't considered that since the providers in my country didn't do that.
I don't know what ELSE they may have done of course, yet another reason I'm glad mine is rooted and running CyanoGenMod. My phone contains at least as much private data as my computer - and some more dangerous just by being a phone... I prefer to think the code on it is open.

--
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *

Re:If it's designed to be rootable how come you ca by SuperKendall · 2010-09-09 07:56 · Score: 1

is it Ubuntu trying to stop you from getting root privileges at all or is it me ?

You just said "Ubuntu contains a layer to prevent the average user from gaining root access", so obviously it's Ubuntu since it's designed to provide that layer.

The equivalent to a "sudo" command is already in Android

And in iOS, which is why jailbreaking even works. Both have levels of security for the system.

Handset manufacturers sometimes go to some effort to make it harder to excercise the ability

And sometimes go so far as to prevent it altogether, not just "make it harder".

Again, I see only subtle distinctions in design since both systems are designed with a number of layers of security in mind, which when bypassed give you higher levels of access. iOS is just as designed under the hood for root level users as it is non-root users, because root level tasks need the same kinds of things across systems.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Incoming sockpuppet troll odies/sopssa/SquarePi by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 08:21 · Score: 0

Thanks for keeping it real, brother. sopssa should stick to trolling under a bridge in Sweden. :/

T-Mobile not major? by tepples · 2010-09-09 11:18 · Score: 1

T-Mobile isn't a major carrier

It could have had me fooled. I thought there were a "Big Four": two CDMA2000 carriers (VZW and Sprint) and two GSM/UMTS carriers (AT&T and T-Mobile).

Re:T-Mobile not major? by dwightk · 2010-09-10 01:07 · Score: 1

it is by far the smallest of the big 4.

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Like anyone can even know that

Take a look? hahahahaha. by tepples · 2010-09-09 11:32 · Score: 1

If you want to be sure that the store actually has the item, the best way is to check in person.

I did this in three stores, and the answers were (respectively) negative, negative, and negative.

If you want the internets to provide you a list of stores that have the item, hahahahahahahahahahahaaha.

Which is exactly my point: the suggestion by MichaelSmith and blackraven14250 to "take a look" and "fool[] around for a few minutes" isn't so viable.

Re:Take a look? hahahahaha. by maxume · 2010-09-09 11:47 · Score: 1

If you know the answer, why are you asking a question?

--
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.

Rhetorical by tepples · 2010-09-09 11:53 · Score: 1

If you know the answer, why are you asking a question?

Why don't you ask Wikipedia?

Re:Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Andro by exomondo · 2010-09-09 15:54 · Score: 1

For far greater numbers of people:

How so?

Re:Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Andro by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-09 17:48 · Score: 0

Finally - nobody roots their systems because we "have to in order to use a feature". We do it because by using thirdparty versions of android we can get certain features sooner, or run newer versions of the OS - or hell just enjoy having a root shell on our phones - some of us have FUN with that.

Unless you consider being able to remove carrier-installed icons from the home screen a feature. And that would only be one example.

Re:Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Andro by boreddotter · 2010-09-09 18:14 · Score: 1

this is a conversation I had with someone owning an HTC Magic:

HTC Magic Owner: Hey when well I able to get this new OS on my phone? him talking about froyo

Me: wait till HTC releases it, let me check if it's available. Nope sorry HTC won't support it on your phone but it's available from third parties.

HTC Magic Owner: WHAT?! I BOUGHT THIS PHONE LESS THAN A YEAR AGO AND THEY WON'T SUPPORT IT!

Me: It's ok you can get it from third parties, I can install it for you.

HTC Magic Owner: THE PHONE IS LESS THAN A YEAR OLD!

Now with the iPhone and Apple it's much simpler to the average Joe, I assume the phone is guaranteed to be supported for the duration of the contract, the iPhone 3g was released in july 2008 and I assume there are still many which are still under contract, true iOS4 runs like crap and many features are not available some are claimed to be due to hardware, and some reports of speed improvements with iOS4.1.

it's easier for most consumers, they will sacrifice some features that they deem unnecessary for ease of use.

I don't think many even understand what rooting is and many more don't want to go through the trouble. I think Android has this as a weak point, many vendors releasing different hardware with different OS versions, it's also makes it harder for developers.

everyone choses what's best for them at the end I guess.

Re:Why all the iPhone hack-talk but none for Andro by silentcoder · 2010-09-09 18:20 · Score: 1

>I don't think many even understand what rooting is and many more don't want to go through the trouble. I think Android has this as a weak point, many vendors releasing different hardware with different OS versions, it's also makes it harder for developers.

Well there's very little difficulty on the developers - the code compatibility across versions is actually extremely good, but what you're saying is true and one of the reasons google is changing some of the designs in the next version - specifically to modify the base design so that handset manufacturers CANNOT break compatibility anymore and the ability to upgrade for anybody can be ensured regardless of whether their handset manufacturer even exists anymore.

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Unicode killed the ASCII-art *

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