Slashdot Mirror


IBM Warns of China Closing the Supercomputer Gap

eldavojohn writes "China is digging a massive hole to house a computer building with the intent of usurping the United States' lead in the field of supercomputing, claims IBM. As of earlier this year, Oak Ridge Lab was beating China's Shenzhen Center. But now, an IBM representative has said to a Washington, DC forum, 'You have sovereign nations making material investments of a tremendous magnitude to basically eat our lunch, eat our collective lunch.' China has long been a contender in this regard, and Europe and Japan have similar goals to build an exascale supercomputer. To achieve this by 2020, the US will need to focus on 'co-design,' where hardware is developed in tandem with every other aspect of the computer, from applications down to optics. This isn't the first time a 'space race' style supercomputing push has been spurred by international competitiveness."

238 comments

  1. To compute what? by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So everyone's trying to make a big, fast computer.

    What's at stake? What does the winner win?

    1. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Life the universe and everything? would have thought that was obvious

    2. Re:To compute what? by hsmith · · Score: 1

      Exactly

      The US is borrowing $1.5trillion a year, why should we borrow more money from the Chinese to build a supercomputer to "battle" them - over what?

    3. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Skynet.

      (the CAPTCHA on this post is 'scaring' - seems oddly appropriate)

    4. Re:To compute what? by AnonymousClown · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So everyone's trying to make a big, fast computer.

      What's at stake?

      Bragging rights? China beats IBM, we can no longer say that we're the most technologically advanced country and that's what I want. If that happens, maybe we'll get a boost in science education like post-Sputnik.

      What does the winner win?

      The best and brightest immigrants?

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    5. Re:To compute what? by klingens · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The biggest, baddest nuclear bombs, the deadliest engineered plagues, the shortest cryptography decryption times and the goodwill of all mankind (everybody is very very nice to you if you have the aforementioned weapons).

    6. Re:To compute what? by Even+on+Slashdot+FOE · · Score: 1

      The ability to brute force the other guys crypto better.

    7. Re:To compute what? by Binder · · Score: 1

      Primarily, bragging rights... but bragging rights on a global scale.

    8. Re:To compute what? by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      We already have bioweapons and nukes; what difference does it make when the warheads are a few megatons more powerful than before? We're all dead anyways. It sounds to me like this is more national penis comparison than deadly threat.

      --
      SSC
    9. Re:To compute what? by lowrydr310 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Shall we play a game?

      Remember, the only winning move is not to play.

    10. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So everyone's trying to make a big, fast computer.

      What's at stake? What does the winner win?

      If China wins, nobody. If the US wins, IBM :)

    11. Re:To compute what? by decipher_saint · · Score: 1

      Colossus and Guardian are bored and need a new friend...

      Seriously though, isn't more supercomputing power better? More better?

      --
      crazy dynamite monkey
    12. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So everyone's trying to make a big, fast computer.

      What's at stake?

      Bragging rights? China beats IBM, we can no longer say that we're the most technologically advanced country and that's what I want. If that happens, maybe we'll get a boost in science education like post-Sputnik.

      What does the winner win?

      The best and brightest immigrants?

      But aren't they just slapping together a bunch of processors from western companies? Isn't it good for the US when China wants to spent tens of millions on American products?

    13. Re:To compute what? by RenderSeven · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well duh! We need that kind of compute power to keep track of the debt.

    14. Re:To compute what? by BigHungryJoe · · Score: 1

      are they actually brute forcing it, though? I always figured they had different, secret means of attacking the ciphertext. Possible ways that were designed into the algorithm to begin with... so it isn't so much a matter of brute computing power.

    15. Re:To compute what? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The dickwaving over who has the biggest supercomputer seems largely like hype stirred up to enhance IBM's shareholder value; but if you are going to make a dubiously sensible investment in expensive toys, doing it with borrowed money is, in some ways, preferable to doing it with real money.

      The huge debts that sovereign nations tend to rack up trigger the same moral instincts that petty consumer debt does; but it isn't at all clear that they work anything like the same way, economically.

      China: "Dear US, we are cashing in the giant pile of debt you owe us."
      US: "Shucks, China, it looks like we spent all our money on increasingly elaborate pyramid schemes and shitty exurbs that nobody wants. Anyway, thanks for all the free stuff over the years, and I hope you don't find the sudden transition from high-employment export economy to moderate-unemployment internal economy too jarring... TTLGTG!"

    16. Re:To compute what? by curmudgeous · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bragging rights? China beats IBM, we can no longer say that we're the most technologically advanced country and that's what I want. If that happens, maybe we'll get a boost in science education like post-Sputnik.

      IBM is not an American company. They've said so repeatedly, every time they been asked about all the thousands of jobs they've off-shored.

      What they ARE, though, is a large multi-national trying to stir up fear and pseudo-patriotism in the hopes of snagging huge, profitable government contracts for projects to build things we really don't need right now.

    17. Re:To compute what? by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      China: "Dear US, we are cashing in the giant pile of debt you owe us." US: "Shucks, China, it looks like we spent all our money on increasingly elaborate pyramid schemes and shitty exurbs that nobody wants. Anyway, thanks for all the free stuff over the years, and I hope you don't find the sudden transition from high-employment export economy to moderate-unemployment internal economy too jarring... TTLGTG!"

      I'm no economist, but I think you're spot on. It's not like China can "cash out" and repossess our SUV's if we can't pay. We simply can't pay, the cash is gone. All China can really do is stop lending to us. Which would be catastrophic for the US, and a smaller but still really big problem for the rest of the world.

      The worst thing they could do is dump our debt to other countries for cheap, which I think would serve to devalue our currency quite a bit. Because so much of the global economy is based around the USD, this would be bad for everybody.

    18. Re:To compute what? by thijsh · · Score: 1

      They win insurance... Or probably other interesting state secrets that are encrypted. Presuming there are some yet unknown-to-the-public-flaws in AES for example (and like with all algorithms there are) governments could possibly be able to decrypt these kind of files in a matter of years instead of billions. In which case it can be quite beneficial to be a month ahead of 'the other guys' with decryption, with some information a few extra petaflop (or soon exaflop) could mean a world of difference.

    19. Re:To compute what? by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

      China beats IBM, we can no longer say that we're the most technologically advanced country and that's what I want.

      Most advanced? Crunching more floating points? Seriously...

      What a bunch of two year old politics this is...

      We're all living on the same planet, remember? I thought the internet was blurring borders...

      --
      Here be signatures
    20. Re:To compute what? by NeverVotedBush · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You do know that Intel's biggest, best, and newest research center is in China, right? Also production facilities, I believe. Bet there are stipulations on where the processors are made if they go Intel.

      But more importantly, there are reasons to have such big computers and it isn't bragging rights. That's what the managers use to measure by and get their bonuses, but the real value in a super is what you can calculate with it.

      As they get more powerful, you can quit doing various approximations and do real calculations. Your simulations get more accurate. You can also do those simulations quicker and do more of them as you explore optimization strategies. While these computers are expensive, being able to trim years or decades off of research programs pays back many times more in first to market, market dominance, etc.

      You can do things in simulations that aren't even practical or even feasible in real life. Depending on the problem, it can be that you cannot even simulate it at all without a computer of such a scale.

      One thing to keep in mind is that the researchers who use these things, when they get more power, generally are able to make pretty amazing new discoveries. For anyone using these, the advantages are obvious. And so are the opportunites if they can get their hands on even more computing power.

      The quest for more computing power is in no way simply a bragging rights kind of thing. There are huge advantages to being able to run on the fastest computer in the world.

    21. Re:To compute what? by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

      You can't brute force a key without knowing the encryption technique in the first place, smartass ;)

      --
      Here be signatures
    22. Re:To compute what? by GreatBunzinni · · Score: 1

      So everyone's trying to make a big, fast computer.

      What's at stake? What does the winner win?

      What's at stake is nothing less than hundreds of million dollars and the winner gets to store that money in the bank. That's why IBM is trying to make anyone believe that there is some sort of supercomputer arms race going on between a hand full of rivals. By fanning a hand full of politician's need for nationalistic grandstanding they are in effect positioning themselves to receive a big chunk of tax money.

      --
      Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
    23. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Just bragging rights? I'm not sure if you guys are trying to be +1 Funny or -1 Stupid. Computers are supposed to be our expertise. Here is a short, random list of things you can do with a large computer:

      turbulent flow, shocks, complex fluids, plasmas, particle transport, seismic modeling, radiation hydrodynamics, astrophysics, nuclear data, fission, radchem, radiation detector design, nuclear forensics, thermonuclear burn, nuclear energy, nuclear reactor fuels, plasticity, ejecta, friction, the equation of state (from SciDAC)

      That's what I found in 30 seconds googling; the list goes on (this doesn't even cover the work I do on supercomputers (subnuclear physics)), but I think you get the idea. There are a LOT of problems that can benefit from large amounts of computer power, and if China leads in computing, they'll have a big leg up on us in those fields.

    24. Re:To compute what? by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

      How about thermonuclear war?

      --
      Here be signatures
    25. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pride and dignity :)

    26. Re:To compute what? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Transcendence

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    27. Re:To compute what? by Hythlodaeus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      China beats IBM, we can no longer say that we're the most technologically advanced country and that's what I want. If that happens, maybe we'll get a boost in science education like post-Sputnik.

      We don't need more science education (except maybe educating legislators). We need more science investment and employment to clear out the backlog of science postdocs that have been educated in numbers far in excess of jobs that require that sort of qualification.

      --
      For great justice.
    28. Re:To compute what? by TheLink · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The huge debts that sovereign nations tend to rack up trigger the same moral instincts that petty consumer debt does; but it isn't at all clear that they work anything like the same way, economically.

      It should be clear and obvious they don't work the same way. After all, the US owes China in US dollars, not Euros, not RMB.

      So it's more like an amusement park owing suppliers massive debts payable in amusement park tokens (except amusement park tokens cost more to make than "electronic" US dollars).

      Or like you owing trillions in fuzzyfuzzyfungus dollars. You can create as many as you need. Sure the smart ones may never lend you money again, but maybe the smart ones wouldn't have lent you trillions payable in fuzzyfuzzyfungus dollars right? So the dumb ones might actually say "thank you!" when you go up to them and repay them :).

      As long as the dollar remains the main currency used to trade oil and other commodities, the USA gets a cheap/free ride. The people who keep saying "the USA would be better off with the gold standard" should consider this and other important factors :).

      --
    29. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's more complicated than that...they're dependent on US buying from them to fund their own economy.

      If the US goes down, it means they're holding a bag of junk they can't use.

    30. Re:To compute what? by Danieljury3 · · Score: 1

      So everyone's trying to make a big, fast computer.

      What's at stake? What does the winner win?

      A big, fast computer

    31. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming unlimited computing capacity, brute-forcing 256bit crypto would consume a theoretical minimum of 10^56 GWh of energy.

      10^56 GWh also happens to be the total mass-energy of the observable universe.
      In comparison, the three gorges dam produces 80,000 GWh per year.

    32. Re:To compute what? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      IBM isn't exactly "American" anyway. They would probably qualify as "Western", but they are a multinational corporation with no loyalty to the United States. They are just waving an American flag today, hoping that it will motivate some ignorant politicians to vote for something that IBM wants. Like, maybe funding for an even larger supercomputer. We really are world class chumps if we fall for that. Or, world class chimps. Whichever . . .

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    33. Re:To compute what? by hey! · · Score: 1

      Well, that's the peace dividend for you. We used to "stockpile" physics PhDs like they were bomb warheads. The rate slacked off after 1970, picking up briefly during the Reagan administration.

      But we still have the giant physicist factories fully manned because with tenure there isn't really an effective way to dismantle them.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    34. Re:To compute what? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Thank you, Sir. I posted almost the same thing, before I scrolled down far enough to read your post. IBM is maybe Western, but certainly not American. Their ONLY loyalty is to the accumulation of wealth.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    35. Re:To compute what? by andy1307 · · Score: 1

      To track IBM's billing hours. At 300$/hr for an IBM consultant, that's a lot of computing.

    36. Re:To compute what? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not that simple. If the USA did print enough dollars to repay the debt to China, then it would seriously inflate the dollar. That would make other people very wary about holding debts in dollars (although it would make a lot of third-world countries happy - they'd be able to repay their debts easily all of a sudden), and the USA would find it very difficult to borrow in the future, which would affect infrastructure. It would also affect the purchasing power of the average American, meaning that the cost of all imported goods would go up (in dollar terms), not just those from China. Anticipation of the last step is why a lot of large companies are trying hard to build markets in the EU, India and Russia - they don't want to be hit when Americans can't afford their products anymore.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    37. Re:To compute what? by wmac · · Score: 1

      or the IBM rich!

    38. Re:To compute what? by conspirator57 · · Score: 1

      Plus, they needed a money pit (big hole) with a money pit (big facility) to put their money pit (supercomputer) in.

      --
      "If still these truths be held to be
      Self evident."
      -Edna St. Vincent Millay
    39. Re:To compute what? by dieth · · Score: 1

      So we're going to build all these big computers, to be told 42?

    40. Re:To compute what? by hackingbear · · Score: 1

      What's at stake? What does the winner win?

      Taxpayer money!

    41. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      17.7% of Chinese exports go to the US. If china were to dump a pile of greenbacks, that percent would not go to %0. Maybe it would if DC threw a tantrum and halted all trading, barring that, a 10% hit on exports doesn't seem like an unrecoverable disaster. There's no bag of junk, they just shut down a couple hundred factories, or pull back production 10%. With regards to policy they could do that in a day, because they don't have the debate element found in our two party system. China is going to eat our lunch, and we are just going to watch it happen unless the two parties cooperate better.

    42. Re:To compute what? by Magada · · Score: 1

      Speaking of designer viruses, how about a non-lethal bioweapon? Would unleashing a highly-contagious designer flu virus that decreases the productivity of everyone infected by 50% for three months without killing anyone warrant a nuclear response?

      Yet such an attack would surely cripple the economy.

      --
      Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
    43. Re:To compute what? by fritsd · · Score: 1

      US-China trade statistics
      Guess where most people on our world live who buy cheap chinese products. Hint: it's not the USA.
      Hence, if the USA goes bankrupt, they'll have a heavy economic loss, of 18%, but it may be survivable:
      Table 7: China's first trade partner is the USA, with 221 billion $ in 2009.
      Table 4: China's trade with the world: export in 2009 is 1202 billion $, that gives export to the USA a 18.3% share.

      --
      To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
    44. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      you did not give one SPECIFIC example of why we need the fastest machine on the planet, much less a cost/benefit tradeoff - If I invest x dollars in a marginally faster computer that will be out of date in 5years, could I get a better ROI some other way ?

    45. Re:To compute what? by thijsh · · Score: 1

      Lisa, get in here! In this house we obey the laws of thermonuclear war!

      Oh no, that was another fat stupid American everybody loves... :-) I just don't hope they pull a Homer with a nuke!

    46. Re:To compute what? by SystematicPsycho · · Score: 1

      "I'm as just as capable as being sorry as you are"...

      --
      Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
    47. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wouldn't the theoretical minimum be the first guess? here's mine
      0x4 0xa 0x3 0x9 0xa 0xe 0x8 0xf 0x6 0xb 0x4 0x3 0xf 0x0 0x3 0x3 0xd 0xa 0x8 0xb 0x4 0x1 0x5 0x9 0x9 0xc 0xc 0x6 0xc 0x5 0xb 0xc 0x8 0x0 0xf 0x8 0x0 0xf 0xf 0xa 0x1 0x8 0xb 0x1 0x5 0xf 0x4 0xf 0x3 0x4 0xa 0xf 0x3 0x0 0x3 0xe 0xf 0x9 0x3 0xc 0x8 0x9 0xe 0xb

    48. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nuclear bomb simulations are the usual explanation for these and for declaring supercomputers as "munitions" as it's happened before.

      Basically, for an implosion-type bomb, you have to figure out exactly where to place your charges and how big and what shape to make them so that the shockwave compresses the fissible material evenly. Then you get bits and pieces undergoing fission and exploding while some other parts of the material aren't going off yet. The bombs dropped over Japan were very innefficient because most of their fuel didn't achieve fusion but rather was dispersed in the explosion.

      If you want to not waste most of your fissible material (i.e. build more bombs) you end up doing a couple underground tests to figure out a few constants and then do lots and lots of computer simulations (think finite element models) to refine your design. Back during the cold war even the simplest of these simulations required the biggest supercomputers ever built

      Of course, China already has nukes, so this might not apply here, but that's usually what scares governments about supercomputers.

      Though then again, nowadays you'd talk about brute-forcing encryption with integer-only supercomputers, so that's not far behind. Whether it matters if one country has a bigger supercomputer than another is another story.

    49. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly, the last thing I want our government dumping additional billions of dollars into is another pissing patch.

      It made sense back when we were trying to figure out what would happen when you detonate a nuke. But I'm not sure I want us to spend another gajillion dollars on yet another system that we'll pay more people to run weather simulations on or to prove, again, that global climate change is bad.

      If I thought it would get used to come up with an inexpensive, highly-effective cure for diseases, I'd be all over it. But I don't see that happening. It's not like they're going to give Folding@home exclusive use.

      And let's face it, we're f'ing broke. Now is not the time to worry about having the fanciest toy. Use what you have until you can afford a nicer one.

    50. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you're joking, aren't you? Pratically all complex industrial applications and all the research depends on how fast / powerful your supercomputers are starting from: genetics, nanotechnology, biotechnology, nuclear power, communications, space flights, national security, data processing, microprocessors design, and this is only the beginning of the list.

    51. Re:To compute what? by DrgnDancer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OK, been reading through all this stuff and I think it's time to chime in. So far as I can tell, the boogey man here is that China will: a) build a more powerful Supercomputer than the most powerful one we have, b) build a bigger data center than ORNL to house supercomputers, or c) both. As you point out, there are lots of things you can do with HPC assets, and having them is good. Here's where things begin to break down in the doomsday scenario. ORNL is one of a dozen or so similar sites in the US.

      None of them is *quite* as large as ORNL (right now.. they actually switch around which is the biggest and best fairly regularly), but any one of them would be the biggest HPC site in the world if ORNL went away tomorrow. If China builds a bigger site than ORNL, will it be bigger than ORNL *and* Lawrence Livermore combined? How about if we add in Argonne? The DOE alone has like 5 of the top ten performing computers in the world. Then there's all of the DoD sites. We don't have to have the *fastest* or *biggest* computer in the world in order to have *way more computing power* than anyone else.

      Currently we have 43 (if I counted right) of the top 100 supercomputers in the world here in the US, and 8 of the top 10. While having the single biggest is nice, not one is even close to us in total HPC assets. If we stopped buying HPC assets completely, right now, in two or three years we *might* be getting to the point where someone else was close.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    52. Re:To compute what? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      42

    53. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Much more complex than this. The US Dollar is the world reserve currency. In the past 20+ years it has become an accepted resource in hundreds of countries, and in some the preferred resource. The Dollar is not just servicing the American people. With this massive expansion of a user base, the Dollar has sorely needed a massive expansion of monetary base. The QE that the fed is finally doing is revaluing the Dollar so that it can finish becoming the World's Currency. The Euro has already been proven to be a failure, and will be gone within 10 years. The Chinese economy is currently in a bubble, caused by their government printing more than 3 times the money that the US has printed... the Yuan will suffer from heavy inflation long before the Dollar, and investors there will run to the safety of the Dollar. This is a chess match between major economies, these events are not random, they are not mistakes. In the end, there will be only one currency left standing, and the US is aiming to make sure it is the Dollar.

    54. Re:To compute what? by Third+Position · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains."
      --Thomas Jefferson

      --
      American Third Position
      Finally, a real choice!
    55. Re:To compute what? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      It's not that simple. If the USA did print enough dollars to repay the debt to China, then it would seriously inflate the dollar.

      Then the dollar should be seriously inflating now right? Because the US owes China "only" about 2 trillion. While it sure looks like the USA has created more than 2 trillion USD since 2008.

      See: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=apx7XNLnZZlc
      December 12, 2008
      "The Federal Reserve refused a request by Bloomberg News to disclose the recipients of more than $2 trillion of emergency loans from U.S. taxpayers and the assets the central bank is accepting as collateral."

      While some may claim there's a difference between creating 2 trillion dollars, and the Federal Reserve lending 2 trillion dollars, I think in this case it's not very different - I doubt the US taxpayers saw the figures in their bank balances immediately decreasing after those loans. ;)

      http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=aGq2B3XeGKok
      February 9, 2009
      "The stimulus package the U.S. Congress is completing would raise the government's commitment to solving the financial crisis to $9.7 trillion, enough to pay off more than 90 percent of the nation's home mortgages. "

      The Federal Reserve doesn't seem to want to say where it's going though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXlxBeAvsB8&feature=related

      although it would make a lot of third-world countries happy - they'd be able to repay their debts easily all of a sudden

      I wouldn't say "sudden", since there'll be a lag between the time the USD is printed, enough people realizing "somethings changed", their goods being sold for the new prices and them getting the money for it (so that they can repay the loans).

      It's like Zimbabwe, when Mugabe prints money, he and his cronies immediately benefit. The rest of the people with net positive Zimbabwe Dollars get taxed immediately, the others holding debts in Zimbabwe Dollars need to get paid higher salaries first before they can pay back "easily". If the creditors start saying "the interest rates are much higher now", it doesn't work so well. I believe for some loans the creditors can change the interest rates. Worse if they end up not even getting a salary, it doesn't work at all.

      Lastly, it was really kind of strange - seeing people "fleeing to the US dollar" after the 2008 US financial crisis. I asked a few finance people about this - they couldn't figure it out either (they weren't doing it)- and suggested maybe it was out of habit. When scared rush to the US dollar? Doh.

      --
    56. Re:To compute what? by rmstar · · Score: 1

      So everyone's trying to make a big, fast computer.

      What's at stake? What does the winner win?

      A big, fast computer

      More like a big, very expensive, very unreliable, energy hog of a computer.

      Actual yields (i.e., portion of theoretical peak that can actually be used in apps) is less than 6 percent. The huge number of components makes this type of computer crash all the time, Energy costs are huge. And it is actually very difficult to find problems that warrant that much power. Either you can do with less, which holds for the vast majority of cases, or the whole thing is basically hopeless anyway. Only for a few problems it makes sense to use a machine like this.

    57. Re:To compute what? by Icegryphon · · Score: 1

      Well duh! We need that kind of compute power to keep track of the debt.

      Heck I wish this was more of a joke but as time goes on it isn't that far from the truth.
      They even needed to add a number to the US debt clock when it hit over 10 Trillion(10^12)
      2 Minutes to MIDNIGHT!!!!!!
      Iron Maiden is now playing in your head.

    58. Re:To compute what? by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      The fact that its a competition is dumb. The fact they are doing it is very much cause for concern. Supercomputers affect everything around either directly or indirectly. With powerful enough super computers you can simulate and create better nuclear warheads and delivery devices, better power plants, better fuels/explosives (this means, rockets, missiles, firearms, artillery), better chemistry for medical use, better lasers, better planes (including fighters and bombers), stealth technology, better integrated computing, so on and so on. Of course, this also means better physics and education.

      Literally, better supercomputers means almost everything related to high tech warfare to high tech industry becomes dramatically more accessible. So contrary to the notion that a superior supercomputer only garners national pride, it means a whole lot more. It means the balance of energy, industry, technology, physics, medicine, and potentially endless technological breakthroughs.

      Without supercomputers, many of the nukes in the US arsenal would actually be dirty bombs or much lower yield nukes. Supercomputers allow us to replace potentially worrisome devices to ensure their effectiveness. Supercomputers are also used to improve existing nuclear power plant designs as well as to research designs of tomorrow. Supercomputers play key roles in advanced research projects like the LHC and particle physics. Particle physics plays a huge role in better rocket fuels, explosives, rocket engines, and even jet engines. Supercomputers are also used to model electron interaction for new types of integrated circuitry and even CPU simulation (develop and test before you actually build hardware).

      Supercomputers may be a measure of pride, but most of all, they are a measure of a nation's technological capabilities and aspirations for tomorrow.

    59. Re:To compute what? by jasno · · Score: 1

      We need a new moderation level for posts like this - like "Moderation: ", and then just close the story. There really isn't anything else to say.

      --

      http://www.masturbateforpeace.com/
    60. Re:To compute what? by jasno · · Score: 1

      Ugh, didn't preview.. let's try again...

      We need a new moderation level for posts like this - like "Moderation: <THREAD WINNER>", and then just close the story. There really isn't anything else to say.

      --

      http://www.masturbateforpeace.com/
    61. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And to you I say, it is not THAT simple. China's currency is tied to a basket of currencies (mostly the US dollar) so their currency would inflate at a similar rate.

    62. Re:To compute what? by vortex2.71 · · Score: 1

      The biggest national defense use for these machines is nuclear stockpile stewardship and theoretical development of new weapons capabilities. This is a pretty big deal and is why there are export controls on Intel chips to countries like Iran. This is why all of the fastest US machines only remain unclassified during the development stage and then convert to classified status.

    63. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I thought it would get used to come up with an inexpensive, highly-effective cure for diseases, I'd be all over it. But I don't see that happening. It's not like they're going to give Folding@home exclusive use.

      Um, that is exactly what IBM's recent supercomputing efforts are aimed at. Google for "blue gene". I don't think it is a good idea, because I don't believe it will be cost effective. But it is being done.

    64. Re:To compute what? by stdarg · · Score: 1

      All China can really do is stop lending to us. Which would be catastrophic for the US, and a smaller but still really big problem for the rest of the world.

      It's the shot we need to become competitive again. If we had a Greek-style fiscal crisis it *just might* be serious enough that we could begin to approach maybe thinking about possibly in the future trimming some entitlement programs. Shit I'll never be elected now.

    65. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      wrong.

      but cheer up, you got 128 bits of it right!

    66. Re:To compute what? by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      If the US goes down, it means they're holding a bag of junk they can't use.

      All your oil reserves are belong to us.

    67. Re:To compute what? by RenderSeven · · Score: 3, Funny

      we are just going to watch it happen unless the two parties cooperate better.

      WTF!! We have two parties?????

    68. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So is that why the folks that make Ping golf clubs have a Cray?

    69. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      42.

    70. Re:To compute what? by poliscipirate · · Score: 1

      It's not that simple. If the USA did print enough dollars to repay the debt to China, then it would seriously inflate the dollar.

      It would, but only if they put that money into circulation. Inflation is really a measure of the amount of a currency in circulation, not the amount of a currency that exists. If the US government printed a trillion dollars then buried it in a hole in Texas inflation wouldn't tick up one bit. That's the reason why we've seen "big spending" over the last few years but no real increase in inflation.

      It would also affect the purchasing power of the average American, meaning that the cost of all imported goods would go up (in dollar terms), not just those from China. Anticipation of the last step is why a lot of large companies are trying hard to build markets in the EU, India and Russia - they don't want to be hit when Americans can't afford their products anymore.

      Inflation would definitely do that, but I'd say the real reason large companies are trying to build markets in EU, India, Russia, Brazil, etc is because they want bigger markets and more profit, not necessarily because they expect Americans to not be able to afford anything. And in actuality that may be good for us; our exports would be dirt cheap relative to the rest of the world so we'd start actually exporting something for a change.

    71. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many aspects of science advancement requires computing resources beyond the largest currently available to make more rapid progress. This includes basic science research such as Astrophysics (core-collapse supernova theory, to name one) to more applicable science such as climate science and energy research.

      Here is an overview article titled "Why the U.S. must lead in supercomputing": http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/06/13/EDL91DTU24.DTL

      To look at all the sciences currently done on the largest supercomputer in the US, look here: http://www.nccs.gov/media-center/nccs-reports/

    72. Re:To compute what? by celtislav · · Score: 1

      Clearly, China wants to kick the world's ass in gaming. Thousands of dollars are at stake.

    73. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We already have bioweapons and nukes; what difference does it make

      when the Chinese can release a bio-weapon that targets whites, blacks and browns but not Asians?

      A pretty big one actually. How about not a bigger nuke, but a smaller one?

    74. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hmmm ... not working to plan me thinks. With a cash rate at zero and having being there for the last few years, where else do you have to go?

      Deflation is coming your way.

      Why do you think the Chinese are not going to adjust their valuation?

    75. Re:To compute what? by Fyzzler · · Score: 1
      Here is what you can do with the second fastest super computer.

      turbulent flow, shocks, complex fluids, plasmas, particle transport, seismic modeling, radiation hydrodynamics, astrophysics, nuclear data, fission, radchem, radiation detector design, nuclear forensics, thermonuclear burn, nuclear energy, nuclear reactor fuels, plasticity, ejecta, friction, the equation of state (from SciDAC)

      Here is what you can do with the third fastest supercomputer.

      turbulent flow, shocks, complex fluids, plasmas, particle transport, seismic modeling, radiation hydrodynamics, astrophysics, nuclear data, fission, radchem, radiation detector design, nuclear forensics, thermonuclear burn, nuclear energy, nuclear reactor fuels, plasticity, ejecta, friction, the equation of state (from SciDAC)

      Do you sense a pattern here?

      --
      I have one question. If the Japanese Ministry of Agriculture is not in charge of Gundam, then who is?
    76. Re:To compute what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, IBM needs tax payers money for its "R&D" or tax breaks or both or US will fall behind.

    77. Re:To compute what? by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      So, overnight a nation of more than a billion people is going to have a couple hundred million with nothing to do? That doesn't sound very survivable to me, especially considering China's history of the poor tearing the rich limb-from-limb time-to-time.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    78. Re:To compute what? by bit01 · · Score: 1

      One thing to keep in mind is that the researchers who use these things, when they get more power, generally are able to make pretty amazing new discoveries.

      Actually, the vast majority of researchers using these things are using antique software packages and would get much better bang-for-buck by spending some of the money on decent programmers instead to make the software run much more efficiently on slightly less performant hardware.

      Most researchers using supercomputers, such as physicists, chemists and biologists are older, politically connected types who are good at getting the money for such things but aren't really up on what is [not] possible in software. They get the hardware because they can, not because they really understand the cost/benefit trade-offs, and because they are only human and bragging rights matter.

      There are of course exceptions to this general rule (e.g. weather forecasting perhaps) but it is mostly true.

      ---

      Are you one of those programmers who expect their users to be mind readers? Think about how your code is going to be used step-by-step!

    79. Re:To compute what? by justkeeper · · Score: 1

      Of course IBM is not an American company, it's even in their name!

    80. Re:To compute what? by Ceriel+Nosforit · · Score: 1

      The Euro has already been proven to be a failure, and will be gone within 10 years.

      lol... ROTFLOL

      Haha, okay. Seriously, time you stop typing.

      --
      All rites reversed 2010
    81. Re:To compute what? by Nalgas+D.+Lemur · · Score: 1

      our exports would be dirt cheap relative to the rest of the world so we'd start actually exporting something for a change.

      Our exports are actually huge, only slightly behind China, even. I don't remember where the list of them I was looking at recently was, but there are many things we sell to other countries in rather large amounts, and a lot of the top 20-30 categories are actually growing at a pretty decent rate. Unfortunately our imports are significantly huger. So yeah, it would be nice if something helped balance that out more in our favor, but hopefully it ends up being one of the...less catastrophic options. Heh.

    82. Re:To compute what? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Supercomputers are useful for a lot of things. From weather simulation, to nuclear weapon simulations without actual nuclear tests needing to be done.

    83. Re:To compute what? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1
      Many of the items China sells are perishable goods, or consumer electronics which have a limited life span. For how long do you keep your cell phone? If the US stops paying, China stops selling (or starts demanding bartering deals, or gold, instead of money). US consumers will quickly have lowered living standards (some would say US citizens will have to readjust to living on their own wealth instead of borrowed wealth). US inflation will increase and the trade deficit will probably get even worse. China will have to redirect their trade elsewhere, or turn inwards.

      In a worst case scenario the US may even resort to engaging in limited war with China. Remember the Opium Wars and Unequal Treaties in the XIXth century? This is one of the reasons why the Chinese are investing so much money on their own military.

    84. Re:To compute what? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1
      What will happen, if the US government allows it, is that Chinese companies will buy US companies and land. This way they can turn their US dollars into more tangible assets. This is what happened with Japan in the 1980s.

      It has already started. Lenovo bought IBM's personal computer business, Sichuan Tengzhong tried to buy GM's Hummer division recently. The Chinese have also been trying to buy mines which produce strategic resources all around the world.

    85. Re:To compute what? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1
      There are export barriers to selling high precision manufacturing tools to China. In particular China cannot purchase the advanced lithography machines required to produce leading edge microprocessors. This means Intel cannot have manufacturing plants in China lest they want to receive the ire of the US government.

      Intel designs their microprocessors in the US and Israel.

    86. Re:To compute what? by jandersen · · Score: 1

      So it's more like an amusement park owing suppliers massive debts payable in amusement park tokens (except amusement park tokens cost more to make than "electronic" US dollars).

      Except that, of course, everybody is aware of this; representing the value of anything as an amount of money is only and only ever been a convenient way of keeping track of the real value: goods and services. And that, at the end of the is what the debt will be repayable as. If the USD has been devalued too much, the Chinese (and everbody else) aren't going to accept the lower repayment, that would be silly.

  2. Nuke the site from orbit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It's the only way to be sure.

  3. Plus ca change.... by klingens · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apparently there is nothing new under the Sun. The reader of this PR to help IBM sell more of their HPC machines should read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap first.

    1. Re:Plus ca change.... by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      And don't forget the Bomber Gap. Or the Doomsday Gap. Or the Mineshaft Gap!

  4. What do they exepect? by AnonymousClown · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The US doesn't have a monopoly on smart people.

    Those countries are sending their best and brightest to US universities to learn. Last I looked, they take the same classes as Americans - at least the Americans who are still studying that stuff.
    When you offshore R&D to other countries, you spread knowledge around faster.
    Why do I get the feeling the IBM is setting themselves up to receive Government handouts.

    --
    RIP America

    July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    1. Re:What do they exepect? by El+Torico · · Score: 1

      If they want handouts, they should go to a government that actually has money (hint - it isn't the US).

      --
      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.
    2. Re:What do they exepect? by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      Neither does China.

    3. Re:What do they exepect? by Galestar · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      AccountKiller
    4. Re:What do they exepect? by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

      China is loaded with it. WHat they are not doing is spending it on Western companies. GE found that out and is trying to get back in good with the USA. I suspect that IBM is also figuring that out.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    5. Re:What do they exepect? by BigHungryJoe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      IBM is entitled to all the handouts they want - it's only the unemployed and welfare mothers that aren't entitled to handouts. Christ are you some kind of socialist?

    6. Re:What do they exepect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But US smart people are studying law & finance. Their smart people are studying computers & engineering.

    7. Re:What do they exepect? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "The US doesn't have a monopoly on smart people......Why do I get the feeling the IBM is setting themselves up to receive Government handouts."

      Indeed, why did the US and IBM not starve to death when Japan was "eating their lunch for a couple of years?

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    8. Re:What do they exepect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before you start handing out my money you need to think hard where that money comes from.

      I have no problem supporting single moms who make sure their kids study hard and become engineers. I love the idea of helping the unemployed while they retrain or look for a new job. I have a huge problem paying people to sit home for 99 weeks and troll on youtube.

    9. Re:What do they exepect? by BigHungryJoe · · Score: 1

      what if they're home on youtube because there simply aren't jobs available? Not sure what industry you're in, but in mine, if you're over 50 and unemployed right now, you are screwed.

    10. Re:What do they exepect? by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      what if they're home on youtube because there simply aren't jobs available?

      Then they should spend their time building up their skills or retraining themselves. Until the point where even engineers, accountants, and nurses are facing a massive amount of competition, then this will viable advice.

      But yeah, that whole "learning" thing has diminishing rewards for old geezers. Change careers to something where experience counts. Presumably you did something of interest in those 50 years. Go teach it or something.

    11. Re:What do they exepect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Japanese are our friend. They have very small penis. It cannot be seen next to giant horse sized American hairy penis.

    12. Re:What do they exepect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US doesn't have a monopoly on smart people.

      That's only because they're waiting on their PCT patent application to be granted.

    13. Re:What do they exepect? by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      Just because they buy our debt doesn't mean they have money to spend, jeez. If they spend money on a US company, they have to buy that debt all over again, then doubly so, in order to keep their currency pegged to ours. If they don't keep their currency pegged, they're in a world of hurt economically.

    14. Re:What do they exepect? by BuckaBooBob · · Score: 1

      Because they are.... This IBM Spinning this because its unlikely that China will be using IBM chips... (Even though that doesn't matter.. i am sure IBM would have no problems Selling chips to all sides of a Supercomputer race)..

      IBM is just doing a PR campaign in the US to get the US Government/Market to build more/bigger super computers.

      --
      Who needs WiFi when we can have Packet Over Sheep! http://datacomm.org/PoS-InternetDraft.txt
    15. Re:What do they exepect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the US is going to give out handouts I'd rather see them go to a company that will keep us competitive globally. Handouts to welfare mothers only worsen the problem by creating large segments of the population that do not produce and who instead become dependent on government.

    16. Re:What do they exepect? by Nyder · · Score: 1

      IBM is entitled to all the handouts they want - it's only the unemployed and welfare mothers that aren't entitled to handouts. Christ are you some kind of socialist?

      You say socialist like it's bad.

      --
      Be seeing you...
  5. "My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by somersault · · Score: 1

    Supercomputers are cool, but I really don't care which country has the largest. It's a bit sad to be honest. How are China going to "eat [USA's] lunch" with a big supercomputer (which in supercomputing terms seems to just involve throwing more money at it to add in even more interconnects and processors - not exactly very innovative)? By beating them at Chess?

    --
    which is totally what she said
    1. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by klingens · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I understand IBM did some nice marketing in the "HPC is for Chess" area, but "surprise!": real world HPC is not used for chess playing.

      It's for serious research, nowadays mostly nukes (design stuff to go BOOM) and flow modelation (climate research, stealth research, building better cars,planes and other machines), biochemistry (genetic engineering), cryptography and probably dozens of others things.

    2. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by Nerdfest · · Score: 1

      They'll be eating IBM's lunch, not that of the US. IBM really doesn't care about the US as long as they still have money. What they don't want is the US buying supercomputer hardware or expertise from other companies.

    3. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      China might make a computer capable of beating a five year old at Go.

    4. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by SailorSpork · · Score: 1

      Dude, you know that if Big Blue lost to Tao Rhuo-Hong in Chess, the US would have a major PR blow and toothless idiots that don't know Chess from Checkers would be afraid to sleep at night over worry that we're losing to the Chinese, and can we please spend more money to build better Chess-playing computers "CUZ THESE COLORS DON'T RUN!"

      If I were IBM, I'd lobby on those fears to get the US to fund my R&D too. Not a good idea from a taxpayer's perspective, but evilly brilliant from IBM's perspective.

    5. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Ah so....the other show drops!

    6. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by somersault · · Score: 1

      I know that supercomputers are useful things, but I suspect that whoever has the fastest does not matter too much. Having two smaller supercomputers would still be useful for example. I don't know much about it but I assume that you don't usually use the whole supercomputer for just one task - you probably are often running several at once?

      I do IBM and the US should keep pushing forward, but saying they should do something simply because China is also doing it is the thing that is bothering me. As someone else pointed out though, it's all politics, and politicians are just the type of people that care about "keeping up with the Joneses" type thing, so it is a smart move on IBM's part..

      --
      which is totally what she said
    7. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by somersault · · Score: 1

      [ComicBookGuy saying="Most powerful Blue Screen ever!" /]

      --
      which is totally what she said
    8. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

      That must be why Linux dominates the top 10 fastest super computers in the planet, because Windows is designed by professionals who clearly know better.

      FAIL.

      --
      Here be signatures
    9. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by symbolset · · Score: 1

      This is your whoosh: Whoosh.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    10. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

      With all the Microshit fanboyism these days (where the hell did that come from anyway, "oh whoosh; Redmond astrocrew") you can't ever be sure about it.

      --
      Here be signatures
    11. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      How are China going to "eat [USA's] lunch"

      Your comment reminds me of an old Justin Wilson Cajun joke. A Cajun sends his son to college, and when the kid comes home on break the old Cajun asks him "so, whad'ya larn, boy?"

      The student thinks a second and says "PI R square".

      The old man is indignant. "What kind o' tomfoolery is they teachin'? Pie are ROUND, cornbread are square!"

    12. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Depends on what you are using the SuperComputer for.
      Some of the uses are.
      Nuclear Weapons design,
      Weather prediction,
      Fusion research.
      Biomedical research.
      Material Science.

      So yea it is kind of important.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    13. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by somersault · · Score: 1

      Is it going to be a major drawback if China can predict the weather slightly faster than the US can?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    14. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      You do not get faster prediction using more computing power. You get more accurate predictions.
      The amount of time one can spend on a single weather prediction run is bounded so you do not really care about getting them done faster but a faster computer means you can use a bigger model and get more accurate predictions.

      So yes I feel that meteorology and climatology are important sciences and worth the resources.

      I notice you ignored the other subject areas. So one can assume that you do understand that not investing in those areas of research would have a negative impact on the US.
      Or maybe you are Amish?

      So as you can see you are wrong and the US not investing in improving our leading in super computing is a bad idea.
       

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    15. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by somersault · · Score: 1

      I left the rest out for the sake of brevity, but one of those in particular just strikes me as pretty silly. We already have stupidly powerful nukes that hopefully we'd never use anyway, so why concentrate on that? Are they concentrating on how to use them without fallout, or what?

      The rest are all quite noble goals, but I'd rather that the government/whoever invent faster supercomputers to further those goals, rather than just trying to show they have a bigger virtual cock than China. It's pathetic.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    16. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      I just shouldn't waste my time but nuclear weapons development work in the US is all about making sure they do not off unintended.
      Since we do not test anymore safety and systems aging has to be done with simulation.
      The rest of your comment just shows the lack of understanding. It is not about ego it is about capability.
      Ah silly boy you just will not admit that you where wrong and let it go so you must keep going off tangents.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    17. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by symbolset · · Score: 1

      I pondered for quite a while whether a /sarcasm tagline was required on that post. I figured this audience would drive it to "funny" because they knew me. I guess the sarcasm thing is not well accepted here, and the average folk who moderate don't know me as well as I thought they did. Oh well.

      Now I have to be on-topic for this post. China is moving up in supercomputers. They're moving ahead in basic physics and chemistry too. They're growing in these fields without our help. They're building launch capability too. When Americans get to the Asteriods we may find that not only does China own them, but they are prepared to defend them. That would be awkward.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    18. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by somersault · · Score: 1

      I'd admit I was wrong if there was anything to be wrong abot, but my comments have only been questionig why the reative size of supercomputers is an issue, I didn't suggest anywhere that they were not useful. My only complaint has been about the attitude of "we must have this simply to be better than China" rather than purely in a spirit of progress. If you read all my comments without your assumptions, you will see that. Thanks for clarifying on the nukes thing.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    19. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

      China would never attack the USA and vice versa.

      Economy.

      Sorry but I don't know you (no offence) ;)

      --
      Here be signatures
    20. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Size == capability.
      The larger and more powerful the super computer the better the science you can do with it.
      There are still problems that we can not solve even with the computers we have now.
      The rest if just the press spin. If we do not want to fall into being a second rate nation we must keep striving in science. Right now the US does have the number one and number three super computer. China has the number two. China is investing on even bigger super computers so if we want to keep doing world leading science in those areas we must keep investing.
      That is why the relative size counts.
      And that is why we need to invest in more super computing resources.
      And more smaller ones will not do.
      The biggest problems need the biggest computers. Systems like Folding at home only work well for problems where the latency between nodes isn't an issue.
      And yes you are still afraid to admit that you are wrong. Such fear is a terrible thing in our society. Being wrong is the first step in learning.

      I am wondering if we will ever see numbers from the new SuperComputer at UF. In theory it may be the fastest in the world but it is very different from traditional super computers.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    21. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by somersault · · Score: 1

      Sure, I don't like being wrong, and I am pretty ignorant when it comes to supercomputers, so I probably have some wrong ideas about them.

      You seemed to think that I don't think we should make bigger supercomputers or that they won't be useful, and that is something I have never said, which is why I didn't want to admit I was wrong. I was wrong about stuff like bigger supercomputers being used for faster computation rather than more fine grained models (though for certain things, more CPUs obviously would make for a faster computation).

      My main point and disgust was at the phrase "China is going to eat our lunch". Competition is often a nice thing for driving innovation of course, even unfriendly competition - but I just really took umbrage at that phrase. When I do try to improve physical or mental skills, I do it for the sake of improving and pushing myself, rather than because I want to be someone else. Hopefully you at least understand my point there, even if you don't agree with it.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    22. Re:"My supercomputer is bigger than yours!" by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Competition is often a driver because it is a valid concern. If you want to be the leader in the those areas and reap the benefits then it is a valid concern. Also it is one that most people can understand. Most people have no idea what supercomputers are used for. BTW fast does allow for more fine grained models in time constrained problems like weather prediction. A 7 day forecast is useless if it takes 8 days to run.
      Trying to explain everything that we use supercomputers for takes a lot of time and frankly a lot of people will not take the time to listen. So saying that China is going to eat our lunch is a fast way and easy way to explain a complex problem.
      Maybe they could have put it better but that wouldn't have gotten press.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  6. Government Bailout for IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In other words, IBM wants the government to give them lots of cash so they can ship more jobs over to India.

    1. Re:Government Bailout for IBM by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why is it a bailout? Why do people just generically call things they don't like a bailout? A bailout implies just a handout to keep something from failing. This doesn't sound like a bailout. This sounds like a an investment, and for that money, we'll get a more powerful supercomputer and the knowledge and research and know-how that comes with it.

      --
      My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
    2. Re:Government Bailout for IBM by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      It is not an investment when the tech and jobs are shipped overseas to places like CHina, but the same companies that are screaming about this.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:Government Bailout for IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a bailout because IBM wants money from the government to do something that in a free market they should be doing themselves. They don't want to have to slowest computer, then invest some of those billions they make every year into supercomputer research. But that would cut into shareholders profits so it won't happen.

    4. Re:Government Bailout for IBM by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      This sounds like a an investment, and for that money, we'll get a more powerful supercomputer and the knowledge and research and know-how that comes with it.

      Yes, it's an "investment" in IBM's bottom line. Who knows what untold disaster will rock the US if we don't send them billions of dollars.

  7. If they are worried... by lenroc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If they're worried about China advancing in computer technology, maybe they shouldn't build research labs there!

    1. Re:If they are worried... by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Nicely done.

    2. Re:If they are worried... by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Or maybe stop selling their PC division to a Chinese-based company.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    3. Re:If they are worried... by mlts · · Score: 1

      This was one of the stupidest (IMHO) moves IBM could have done. Before they jettisoned the PC divisions, their salespeople could approach a customer and have a complete solution. The backend databases would be on DB2 running on a zSeries or pSeries server, the System X machines to run Active Directory or Lotus Notes, and black PCs and Thinkpads which had a reputation of top notch quality.

      Essentially a one stop shop. Yes, it was expensive, but a business could pay for it and have just one single point of contact, perhaps two they need to worry about if something in production goes TU.

      Now, Thinkpads are not considered executive machines from what I personally seen. What do I see corporate brass running around with if they have a choice of the cream of the crop? Macbook Pros and BootCamp.

      I just wish they didn't cede the desktop market to Dell/Windows because now, due to out of sight, out of mind, Joe Sixpack doesn't even think of IBM anymore unless one of their commercials runs.

  8. Since when does IBM care about the U.S.? by swamp+boy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Really, since when does IBM care about what happens in the U.S.? Aren't they the same company that recently told some of their top researchers that they could either move to China, Poland, or a couple of other countries on their own dime and work for 'local wages' or be out of a job?

    1. Re:Since when does IBM care about the U.S.? by klingens · · Score: 3, Informative

      Really, since when does IBM care about what happens in the U.S.?

      Since they sell the vast majority of their HPCs in the US.

    2. Re:Since when does IBM care about the U.S.? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let me translate IBM's statement into a more sincere, less carefully spun, form, and you'll see why an uncaring profit-maximizing multinational is wrapping itself in the flag:

      PR: "But now, an IBM representative has said to a Washington, DC forum, 'You have sovereign nations making material investments of a tremendous magnitude to basically eat our lunch, eat our collective lunch.'"

      Translation: "But now, an IBM lobbyist has said to a Washington, DC forum 'Other countries are doling out sweetheart contracts to manufacturers and designers of expensive computers. Give us a giant pile of money or the chinks win."

    3. Re:Since when does IBM care about the U.S.? by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ah, but they may get some coveted welfare, I mean, defense spending out of this, so that's a possible reason for it.

      --
      SSC
    4. Re:Since when does IBM care about the U.S.? by nickmalthus · · Score: 1

      This is only a ploy to trigger Federal spending on IBM hardware by politicians who publicly and vigorously support national pride but privately pledge allegiance to the corporatist policies that are destroying this country. This wouldn't be the first time IBM played both side. Never forget their business dealings with the Nazis and how they put profit over humanity.

      --
      If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be-T J
    5. Re:Since when does IBM care about the U.S.? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Yeah it's all about funding. Seriously, IBM is an "International" company, that's what the "I" stands for....so why all the worry IBM. Oh yeah you want money to build your souped up super computer.

      Here's a thought, BUILD IT YOURSELF!

    6. Re:Since when does IBM care about the U.S.? by Ratbert42 · · Score: 1

      My translation: "China's new supercomputer work won't make any money for IBM."

  9. Remember the 1980s? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I also remember the 1980s supercomputer, artificial intelligence race with Japan. What a load!

    1. Re:Remember the 1980s? by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Remember the missile gap cries before then? "We can only kill them ten times over; they can kill us 11 times over! We need to close the missile gap!"

      --
      SSC
    2. Re:Remember the 1980s? by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I always wondered where those statistics came from. We've dropped a bunch of bombs in deserts in the US and they have yet to all turn to glass. Are there really enough nukes in the US arsenal to kill every single person in an area 10 times the size the China? Or are we talking like, we have enough nukes to hit your military bases and major and minor cities 10 times and get like 60% of your population, but your rural areas will be mostly okay?

    3. Re:Remember the 1980s? by zero0ne · · Score: 1

      Check This and see what we have.
      something like 2,500 Mt in total active nuclear arsenal.

      (In the 60's it was something like 20,000 Mt )

      The fireball size of a 1Mt nuke is around .5km from what I saw on Wikipedia. so ~2,500 .5km diameter spheres. (Area = ~.2km^2)
      (US = ~9.6 Million km^2)

      Expect 3rd degree burns and the destruction of most civilian buildings at 10km out (of the 1Mt explosion).
      With no overlap that would be ~2% of the US.

      Note that were not even touching on fallout, natural disasters from the earthquakes, weather changes, usable food stock getting destroyed, etc.

    4. Re:Remember the 1980s? by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Man, I had no idea it was that much of an exaggeration. 2% of the US? People routinely claim that we could nuke the entire world 6 times over, so why not reduce our stockpiles by 83%.

  10. heh... by oic0 · · Score: 1

    What do we need a super computer for? Just offer up a tax credit for participating in distributed computing ;) Anyhow, who cares if China has the fastest super computer. What are they going to do with it that is so threatening?

    1. Re:heh... by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      They have already restarted nuke warhead production. They have several sites that are large ground-based lasers. They are working on anti-sat tech. They are building 1-2 new nuke boomers and 1-2 new nuke attack subs each year. They are now threatening Japan when japan holds a captain that rammed 2 of their ships on disputed ground. And you ask exactly what China is going to do with it?

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    2. Re:heh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, quite clearly, not having the most powerful computer hasn't hinder them in those pursuits.

      Computers have been successfully simulating nuclear detonations since the 1970s.

      So, again... what does it matter?

    3. Re:heh... by oic0 · · Score: 1

      Taunt us to death while their super computer can run Crysis at 120fps and ours can only run it at 100fps? Perhaps use the thing to spell check their products, manuals, and online stores... finally allowing them to extinguish the last of our economy?

  11. Nerd Wars by Voulnet · · Score: 2, Funny

    Nerd Wars going global. I don't see any other explanation.

  12. Capital S by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently there is nothing new under the Sun.

    Of course not, since Sun is under Oracle now; they're not making any new acquisitions.

    It's fair to question Oracle's commitment to the HPC market now that it owns Sun, though I'm not quite sure why you're bringing them up in this context. This seems mostly to be IBM angling for more HPC grant money.

  13. IBM says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IBM says, "hey! China is going to beat you, you better start buying all my stuff fast!"

    Hmm...

  14. Nice marketing strategy by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 1

    You have to hand it to IBM's marketing team... Nice strategy.

    Making the government buy more stuff by effectively injecting FUD. I really can't think of a better way to make people buy stuff without knowing what they need it for.

    --
    .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    1. Re:Nice marketing strategy by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Making the government buy more stuff by effectively injecting FUD.

            Yeah. You keep telling yourself that it's FUD, just like the ultra quiet Chinese sub that popped to the surface 700 yards from the USS Kitty Hawk surprising the hell out of it while it was on exercise, like the Chinese anti-satellite program, like the Chinese having the most impressive engineering and transportation projects this century (as opposed to the most impressive rhetoric and debt), like the millions of people in the largest US cities would be considered a rounding error in big Chinese cities, like the Chinese space program, yeah this is just FUD. Go ahead and have that nap, Mr. Hare, there is NO WAY the tortoise will win the race.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:Nice marketing strategy by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 1

      The sad thing is, that as long as humans are stupid enough to think about their nations in terms of supremacy, we will really never evolve past a continuum of wars.

      But the most amusing thing is how Americans seem to take it for granted that the USA should always be the best at everything.

      I'm not trying to take sides or say how it should be. These are just general observations that seem to contribute to my inevitable fall into ever deeper cynicism. That being said, the longer I live the more convinced I am as broken as everyone else.

      --
      .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    3. Re:Nice marketing strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > just like the ultra quiet Chinese sub that popped to the surface 700 yards from the USS Kitty Hawk

      Anti-submarine warfare is like poker; you can never quite be sure who is bluffing.

      The commander of the Chinese submarine still doesn't know whether the CVBG's SSN was tracking him on passive sonar. Nor does he know if the group escorts had him pegged.

      There is too much good intel to be collected to give away that sort of information to a potential enemy. Why not lure him in with feigned ignorance and gain even more information about his capabilities?

      SOP during the cold war was to string an SS / SSK along until it had to break surface to snorkel. By doing so, and compiling data, one could build an accurate picture of the submarine's endurance.

      Going to active sonar and acknowledging the bugger would result in him turning-away whilst also disclosing the capabilities of one's passive sonar to detect him.

    4. Re:Nice marketing strategy by cdrguru · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unilateral disarmement never works. If the other side wants to compete you can either compete or forfit. There are no other options. You might think you can choose to sit out, but there is no material difference between that and forfitting.

      In theory, the USA has the greatest potential because (historically) you have had self-directed businesses that can rely on the stock market for capitialization and low taxes and low regulatory hurdles so a business can put incredible resources behind something that makes sense. There are plenty of examples of this happening where the government has stood aside while businesses gathered the capital and manpower to do really big things.

      There was no government-financed support for transistors, lasers, integrated circuits or anything that led to the technology boom from 1950 to 1980 or so.

      Where we are today is that everyone is looking to the government for direction and support. Solar power isn't practical on a large scale without massive government subsidies, so there are few businesses involved in this and some of the ones that are are pure scam. Electric cars might have a future, but there are so many regulations in place now that it is very difficult to manufacture anything involving those nasty things called "chemicals" that might get loose and destroy the environment - so other countries are building battery manufacturing plants and are fully prepared to sell the USA better, cheaper batteries while we fuss around. The result will be their batteries will always be better and cheaper.

      The US Government is pretty much at the point of saying that China can have bigger, better, faster supercomputers because we will have bigger, better and likely more ponderous social support programs. The result will be a continuing slide towards 30-40% unemployment (we're at 20% now) and everything being made outside the USA. Hopefully, there will be plenty of jobs parking cars for foreign executives who come here to dictate terms.

    5. Re:Nice marketing strategy by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 1

      Unilateral disarmement never works.

      Only for as long as people keep thinking like that.

      It might take a thousand, ten thousand, or even a hundred thousand years to achieve world piece. But even that is no reason not to try.

      --
      .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    6. Re:Nice marketing strategy by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Where we are today is that everyone is looking to the government for direction and support.

            You make several valid points, however with respect to the above I have to add: The US government is also looking in every pocket and every wallet for loose change to pay for said "direction and support" - or at least the illusion of it.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    7. Re:Nice marketing strategy by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Only for as long as people keep thinking like that.

      As long as *any* people keep thinking like that.

      It might take a thousand, ten thousand, or even a hundred thousand years to achieve world piece. But even that is no reason not to try.

      Doesn't that depend what happens to the people who try (but fail)?

    8. Re:Nice marketing strategy by timeOday · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unilateral disarmement never works. If the other side wants to compete you can either compete or forfit. There are no other options.

      Well, what if we just fixed our defense spending to twice that of our nearest competitor? That would be a 2/3 reduction from where we are now.

    9. Re:Nice marketing strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You haven't even matched the spending of your competitor; the ratio is 43:57. Your competitor, in the view of your military, being the rest of the world put together.

  15. Re:eh by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Insightful

    (sigh)

    Low taxes do NOT mean low government revenue. The US government pulled in more money AFTER Bush's tax cuts than any time in history. (unfortunately, they spent even more, but that's a different story)

    From USA Today, Feb 12, 2007:

    The continued strong growth in revenues reflects the record profits corporations have been recording in recent years and low levels of unemployment, which means more Americans are working and paying taxes.

    (It's amazing how short our memories are. All I hear about today is how bad the economy was under Bush, yet from 2003-2007, we were booming, but no one care remember anything more than 2 years back)

    See: Laffer Curve.

    --
    There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
  16. IBM, helping China beat America by Kagato · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is the same company that sold most of it's commodity hardware business to Red China. The same company that's heavily investing in research... in China and India. The same company that continued to sell the Nazi's computing hardware used against allied forces and for managing the Holocaust via their their Brazilian unit. IBM has had a long history of selling out America in order to maximize profits.

    1. Re:IBM, helping China beat America by NeverVotedBush · · Score: 1

      Kagato says: "The same company that continued to sell the Nazi's computing hardware used against allied forces..."

      Really?... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC

    2. Re:IBM, helping China beat America by sdguero · · Score: 1

      The systems that IBM sold to the "Nazis" was contracted before the US was at war with Germany. IBM worked closely with the US to create new, better, encryption and decryption machines that greatly helped the allies during the war, not Axis powers. This gave us critical advantages, especially in the Pacific.

    3. Re:IBM, helping China beat America by Kagato · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure why you are quoting Nazis.

      The stuff IBM gets the bad PR for has little to do with encryption. It has to do with management of resources. Be it supplies for the troops or jews that were to be exterminated.

      The Nazis didn't randomly execute people in the camps. They had a complex punch card based system. A system that could help you find jews. A system that determined value and worth. A system that decided in what order people would die. An IBM system.

      On the one hand it's true a number of machines were purchased before the war and the IBM division in Germany didn't have a lot of choices one the Nazis were in power. On the other hand IBM Brazil continued to supply and support the German division long after the US division broke ties.

      Edwin Black indicated in his research that when IBM USA became aware of those dealings they did not ask the Brazil division to stop. Instead they instructed them not to tell US operations about it any more.

      Think about that. They had the opportunity at that point to tell Brazil to not deal with the Nazis. Don't give them support, don't help them program the machines.

      It is chilling to think about.

    4. Re:IBM, helping China beat America by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The systems that IBM sold to the "Nazis" was contracted before the US was at war with Germany.

      IBM not only designed the punch cards for the concentration camp management system, which were designed to be human-readable and as such were printed with a variety of chilling labels, but the service contract was handled not out of their German operation but straight out of Armonk, NY. They knew what was happening. We knew what was happening. Wake up.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:IBM, helping China beat America by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "managing the Holocaust via their their Brazilian unit"

      The Holocaust was not an attack against America.

    6. Re:IBM, helping China beat America by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "The Nazis didn't randomly execute people in the camps. They had a complex punch card based system. A system that could help you find jews. A system that determined value and worth. A system that decided in what order people would die. An IBM system."

      Irrelevant. The death camps were neutral a neutral operation with regard to the US. Actually, if anything the death camps required resources that could have been leveraged in the war to US disadvantage.

    7. Re:IBM, helping China beat America by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Again. This doesn't matter. The concentration camps had nothing to with Germany vs US. They had to do with Germany vs Jews. There is nothing pro or anti-american about aiding concentration camps.

    8. Re:IBM, helping China beat America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, look! It's a wack comment that's never going to get modded up. Congrats!

  17. SO, by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    the company that has been taking all of the US jobs AND TECH, and sending these to China and India SUDDENLY wants US to spend money on super computers. ANd exactly where would these be built at? Why CHINA.

    IBM was ran by traitors in WWII. I see it still is.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  18. Re:eh by ptbarnett · · Score: 2, Informative

    (It's amazing how short our memories are. All I hear about today is how bad the economy was under Bush, yet from 2003-2007, we were booming, but no one care remember anything more than 2 years back)

    It's also convenient to forget that in 2007, the Democrats took control of Congress, and that things really went south afterward. The Executive Branch has a lot of power (and perhaps more than originally intended), but legislation originates in the House of Representatives. Nothing substantial can occur without their approval.

    Is there truly a direct cause-effect relationship, with no time lag? I don't think so. But, if one is going to blame the Bush administration for everything that occurred under its watch and (so far) two years later, then one has to also acknowledge that the Democrats have controlled both houses of Congress for the past 4 years.

  19. no one else buying powerPC chips? by alen · · Score: 1

    are these nations using AMD CPU's like a lot of other supercomputers out there? sounds like IBM is looking for some gubment money to buy up PowerPC CPU's that they can't sell

  20. Follow the money... by jimpop · · Score: 1

    Who invests in China? Who has Labs in China? This situation was inevitable, and it is based on decisions made years ago.

  21. Re:eh by klingens · · Score: 1

    The US wasn't booming. They were simply borrowing metric tons of money: it's easy to have a "boom" with borrowed money, unfortunately sooner or later you have to pay the money back....

    The current crisis (no it's not over, not for a long time) was caused by these exact years you cite.

  22. creators report end of corepirate 'franchising' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you call this weather?

    does evil never sleep? or, did we ever REALLY have a 'vote' on anything?

    as far as we can tell, there has been no (0) public minded political representation here (US) in more than 20 years, which is as long as we've been watching 'it' (the process). so, in order to to maintain taxation without representation..... they must falsify the already phony #s over&over. phewww. that's how we feel. that's US. many/most of us anyway. it's quite doubtful any invisible/imaginary 'enemy' could out do our own fauxking murder & mayhem system, both at home & around the (now under reported) shaking globe.

    they treat us as though we came from monkeys, & they ?didn't?, as evidenced by their tendency to encourage us to do/use less, while they continue to suck DOWn/waste/destroy immeasurable amounts of stuff, & feast on nubile virgins (of both sexes) in their palatial conclaves, surrounded by armies of (infinitely corrupted) hired goons. paid for by.... there we (?monkeys?) go again.

    the search (for one honest/selfless person) continues;
    google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=weather+manipulation

    google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=bush+cheney+wolfowitz+oil+rumsfeld+wmd+blair+obama+weather+authors

    modifying this search makes it even more interesting/scary. it's likely just a coincidence that the same names turn up together in 1000's of documents re: murder, mayhem & just generalized felonious underhandedness.

    meanwhile (as it may take a while longer to finish wrecking this place); the corepirate nazi illuminati is always hunting that patch of red on almost everyones' neck. if they cannot find yours (greed, fear ego etc...) then you can go starve. that's their (slippery/slimy) 'platform' now. see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

    never a better time to consult with/trust in our ?creators?, who may not be what we were forced to (not) believe in. why would descendants of monkeys need to worship anything (except maybe the 400 lb/megaton 'gorilla')? the lights are coming up rapidly all over now. see you there? cup of primordial ooze we are/anyone?

  23. Re:eh by nomadic · · Score: 1

    See: Laffer Curve.

    And like most people who cite the Laffer Curve without really understanding what it is, you are missing the very basic fact (reflected in its actual name) that it is a CURVE. All the Laffer Curve represents is that there is some tax rate at which tax revenues are maximized. It doesn't state that it is a high or a low rate. Those economists who have attempted to quantify that optimal tax rate have tended to reach values far higher than what slashdot Laffer Curve advocates actually think is a good idea. Or would you like a 78.8% tax rate as one economist calculated?

    Your cite to the august economics journal USA Today notwithstanding, the economy wasn't "booming" from 2003-2007; some people made a lot of money, but real wages fell during that time period. The illusion of prosperity isn't prosperity. And tax revenues generally rise every year outside a recession, so "record levels" isn't really that impressive.

  24. Usurping ? by Issarlk · · Score: 1

    IBM and the USA have a divine right to building the largest supercomputer or something?

  25. Since When??? by Comatose51 · · Score: 1

    Since when did the "Indian Business Machine" cared about America? When there is government contracts to be won by scare-mongering?

    --
    EvilCON - Made Famous by /.
  26. Re:eh by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

    You mean artificialy booming due to the artificial stock boost morfine. The price for detoxing back to reality is extremely high, but yeah; it was totaly booming. NOT. It made the fscking economy weak as hell. Not to mention destroy it.

    Oh hello new recession we're climbing out of.

    Get lost.

    --
    Here be signatures
  27. Yes, really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

  28. Re:eh by ArcherB · · Score: 1

    See: Laffer Curve.

    And like most people who cite the Laffer Curve without really understanding what it is, you are missing the very basic fact (reflected in its actual name) that it is a CURVE. All the Laffer Curve represents is that there is some tax rate at which tax revenues are maximized. It doesn't state that it is a high or a low rate.

    You are absolutely correct. Also, the optimum rate today may not be the optimum rate tomorrow. However, when taxes were lower, government revenues were higher, meaning that we are on the right side of the peak. ("right" meaning direction, not "correct")

    Your cite to the august economics journal USA Today notwithstanding, the economy wasn't "booming" from 2003-2007; some people made a lot of money, but real wages fell during that time period. The illusion of prosperity isn't prosperity. And tax revenues generally rise every year outside a recession, so "record levels" isn't really that impressive.

    4% unemployment is better than 10% unemployment. Falling wages is much better than NO wages. I also believe the wages were better in '06 than they are today, especially if you consider the 18 million more people that are actually making wages.

    Besides, as unemployment falls, wages will fall to some degree with it. High wage earners are usually not the ones that are unemployed. A falling unemployment rate means that people who were unemployed are finding jobs. People that find jobs who are not working at the time usually take what they can get and usually don't demand what they were making at their last job.

    Falling wages does not mean that people who made X at job Y are making less than X today at job Y. Wages rarely fall for people who are working the same job. However, when people change jobs or leave unemployment, they are likely to make less money starting out.

    --
    There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
  29. Re:eh by ArcherB · · Score: 1

    You mean artificialy booming due to the artificial stock boost morfine. The price for detoxing back to reality is extremely high, but yeah; it was totaly booming. NOT. It made the fscking economy weak as hell. Not to mention destroy it.

    Oh hello new recession we're climbing out of.

    Get lost.

    You mean like the dow hitting 6000 in after 9-11? Is that be bubble you are talking about?

    --
    There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
  30. Remember the Forbin Project? Colossus? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    well, skynet won't be so lonely...

  31. Gap Wrench by SoupIsGood+Food · · Score: 1

    Oh, no, China is connecting a crapload of bog-standard x86 chips together and running Linux on it, how can we ever compete with that?

    Most supercomputers, from a hardware perspective, are boring and stupid. Their designs are lazy - just keep slapping in more x86 chips and hope the software can be written to break down the problem into parallel operations easily, because if they run into Ahmdahl's law, they're hosed.

    Only Fuji and NEC, and to a much lesser extent, IBM, have really bothered with something different, and the NEC system is getting long in the tooth.

  32. Nuclear weapons in a post test ban world by perpenso · · Score: 1

    So everyone's trying to make a big, fast computer. What's at stake? What does the winner win?

    For some the prize may be nuclear weapons in a post test ban world. Its not just the non-nuclear powers either, existing nuclear powers have a "need" too. With currently deployed nuclear weapons aging and in need of replacement (from their owner's perspective) there is a desire to modernize weapon designs (easier to deliver smaller bombs, more bombs from existing fissionable material, etc). Super computers are essential for such activities. That supercomputer purchased from climate modeling can be repurposed for weapons design.

    Similar issues with respect to supercomputers for molecular modeling applications. The machine purchased for drug testing can be repurposed for chemical and biological weapons. Well that's the pentagon perspective. The pharmaceutical industry will be concerned even with legitimate drug testing, I'm sure lobbyists are warning congress of the "supercomputer gap".

  33. "A.I. Gap" in 1980s by peter303 · · Score: 1

    I remember a similar cry in the 1980s that Japan was going whip the USA in fifth-generation A.I. computing, unless the US government ponied up much more R&D funds. Turned Japan was pursuing a blind ally with fine-grained parallelism and Prolog. Such projects in both the US and Japan went nowhere.

    1. Re:"A.I. Gap" in 1980s by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Yet their car factories are staffed by zero wage robots and they have higher quality than US factories. Maybe that's not directly related to their AI research, but in general they seem to have done pretty well for themselves, and they *have* destroyed US competitors (as well as European) in some related fields.

  34. only the governement can fund highest computers by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Because they are not financially viable yet. These computing experiments may test ideas such as billion cores, optical interconnect, etc. Because sometimes these technologies pan out and sometimes they dont, I support a limited number of high-end projects at a time.

  35. Wrong by melted · · Score: 1

    The US is still going to be the most technologically advanced country whether they build this computer or not. They build it out of technologies invented here in the US after all.

    1. Re:Wrong by i_ate_god · · Score: 1

      no, they build it out of technologies invented in Asia and produced in Asia.

      --
      I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
  36. The real story is Nvidia by xanthos · · Score: 1

    Our friends over at The Register are covering the HPC conference ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/hardware/hpc_blog/ ) going on in New Orleansl. The Nvida Fermi/Tesla GPU products seem to be taking a bigger and bigger chunk of the old high end market. Companies like IBM and Cray are using them in their own products since the cost per flop ratio is so favorable. Anyone can play around with parallel processing now thanks to the Nvidia CUDA api. If you have a GeForce chip then you pretty much have everyting you need.

    Now if I could just talk my wife into letting me buy one of these. http://content.dell.com/us/en/enterprise/d/hpcc/cray-cx1iws-dell.aspx

    --
    Average Intelligence is a Scary Thing
  37. Re:eh by cinnamon+colbert · · Score: 1

    uh....median income levels ?
    sure the economy was booming: people were living on credit. this is like the old joke about the man who jumps off the empire state building: as he passes the 20th floor, he yells out, so far so good...
    I don't know your opinion of the New York Times, but few media are ALL bad. The times had a wonderful piece a year or so back, where they looked at the families in all the houses on a short cul de sac in CA - the reporter just went thru one house after the other, getting peoples stories.
    and the take home? people were having a great time, spending way beyond their means, I mean doing really crazy stuff, like going to vegas on a home equity loan The other side is, if you are worried about your job (say going to china) and your company cuts your pay, the profits go up, but is this "good" for the country ? If you can spout Laffer curve, I'm sure I could find a PhD economist or 3 who can show how lowering wages to maximize profits leads to bad things....

  38. Re:eh by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    Some things are quick fixes and other things are not.

    The all mighty economy is in many aspects like Skinner's Pigeons with the economists each acting like they've found the pattern. Even if the DFL was 100% honestly working for us, it could not reliably stop the momentum of the present situation because of the nature of the problem. Perhaps it could be done better; that is always speculative, and always a sore point open to criticism. Of course they are not 100% honest either...

    In addition, about 30% of the population will never accept the truth when it counters their beliefs no matter how obvious and factual; it may actually make them more entrenched: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128490874
    (Note: I'm not saying just that 1/3 but I'm referring to the 1/3 who blindly follow anything the neoliberals want, which to some degree still loves Bush.)

    While Democrats and Republicans look dangerously similar to the informed observer, they still function differently and arguably their differences are necessary to keep the whole democracy farce alive. Democrats are disorganized and not unified, it is like herding cats - in fact, they pride themselves on their diversity of opinion over being effective. The Republicans are run like much more like a modern business and it comes as no surprise they embrace selling out to business openly and fire insubordinates. There are a few good ones on both sides; more on the Democrat side because they are more tolerant which also means they tolerate moderate Republicans becoming Democrats. The label "Democrat" does not mean a whole lot. A 1 party rule by Democrats does not look like the other side. Yes, in the larger picture of critical issues both produce similar results.

    Corruption maintains a working control over the game making the two parties more like a Good Cop, Bad Cop routine and the public wastes time fighting about which one is the Bad Cop. As I am again doing with this post.

    You are incorrect if you think the Exec Branch has so much power. It has gained too much power, that is true - but actually, it is not powerful.... Its a matter of going with the flow or against it. Going with the flow, it appears almost dictatorial but going against it - it appears weak -- it does not have as much to do with the individual in the job as people think it does.... or the law... Corruption is too powerful today and the power brokers determine which way the "flow" is going and how strong.

    Healthcare should have pointed this out if you really payed attention to it (not on tv news.) The public wanted more by huge numbers. That didn't matter, Obama stubbornly pushed his party to suicide forcing them to not give up which is what most wanted and some planned for. Remember, its better to try and fail (for millions of excuses) than to oppose something popular - that's politics 101. Even most the opposition couldn't reveal their true position, it always had to be framed in failure -- its not good enough, its in the wrong direction, etc. Few dared to say they loved the current situation -- lying is part of the job you know.

    Some think the 70s was the turning point. I think Nixon was a turning point. It wasn't Carter being weak or poor at his job - the system was hijacked so it didn't matter. Either "side" honestly pursuing their goals will not be effective going against the flow of corruption. I must admit however, I was shocked healthcare passed with any significant concessions (still pathetic, but better than I expected.)

  39. Unfortunately... by sonoronos · · Score: 1

    An enormous ditch does not a supercomputer make.

    1. Re:Unfortunately... by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      The second most powerful computer in the world is Chinese. It's not as if they're digging a hole in hopes that they'll somehow figure out how to build a supercomputer along the way.

  40. Beowulf cluster! by Grand+Facade · · Score: 1

    Beowulf cluster!

    --
    Rick B.
  41. China is capitalism as motivation for the state... by ibsteve2u · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In America, our capitalists insist that the individual's (i.e., their own) interests come before the state's and the people's, and anything that they do is justified by the profit motive even if it should hurt America. In China, capitalism is used as a motivational tool to benefit the state - with the constraint that hurting the state will result in your being gifted with some of that uniquely Chinese jewelry: A bullet behind the ear.

    Put another way, decades of observation of America taught China that you cannot depend upon "enlightened self-interest" or "their responsibility to shareholders" to keep humans motivated by greed on the high road, but if you shoot those who drift off the road you've chosen, you don't need sidewalks.

    Put another way, China weaponized trade and used American greed against us. And now such as IBM wish to complain about the consequences of their eagerness to be fabulously wealthy victims? Who built Lenovo? Little green men from Mars?

    Put another way, IBM whining about China investing in making them obsolete after a decade or two of IBM trying to make technology jobs in America obsolete is not American capitalism, it is American greed - and all that we have left.

    Put another way, America herds cats, while China trains a tiger.

    --
    Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
  42. What about Lenovo? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is IBM complaining now? They sent the Lenovo (Thinkpad) intellectual property to China, and expect China won't learn anything from it? And when the US takes out loans to try to re-grow US-based IP and regain its leadership, will IBM be paying for that?

    If people haven't figured out what outsourcing and free trade really are doing to the US in the long-run, it's time to get a clue.

  43. Means vs. End by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A computer is a means to an end. Being the first to occupy space. Going to the moon. Reducing carbon emissions by 90%. 100% energy independence. Those are goals. Building the biggest, fastest computer? That's like going out to build the world's biggest hammer without a house to build.

  44. Sadly by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    the only thing the US government wants to do with supercomputers is to make sure their massive cache of nukes can still go kabloowie.

  45. Re:eh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, and that booming economy wasn't, like, the result of an unsustainable and ill-advised expansion of credit by an out-of-control financial sector, and a monstrous housing bubble or anything.

    BTW, the Laffer Curve is pseudo-economics of the first-degree.

  46. The government gravy train by feynmanfan1 · · Score: 1

    This is a ploy by IBM to get more government money. IBM and Cray are the two major super computer companies supplying the U.S. government. IBM at Los Alamos, Lawrence Livermore and Argonne and Cray at Oak Ridge. IBM also has contracts at the NSA and Fermilab. IBM has gotten a large portion of its U.S. money from the government since its inception, providing punch card machines for the 1890 census for the U.S. census office. IBM has 400k employees of whom 100k are in the U.S., the largest tech company in the world, dwarfing all others. Yet I can't think of a single decent commercial product IBM makes. The Cell processor? The current Cray inc has very little to do with Seymour Cray, the name was bought by Tera computer. Tera computer was co-founded by Burton Smith who had earlier spent time at Institute for Defense Analysis (IDA) and also has a long running contract at the NSA.

    1. Re:The government gravy train by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Yet I can't think of a single decent commercial product IBM makes.

      I take it you're not going to buy a Bluegene this year?

  47. IBM should outsource2china for next super computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    problem solved

  48. Re:eh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The economy didn't boom from 2003-2007. Want to tell how good/bad the economy is doing here in the US on the scale of the average person on the street? See what types of cars people drive and how old the vehicle is, because cars are a source of pride and identity for a lot of people in the US.

    In the 1990s, you had your SUVs, your sports cars and your full sized rides. Now because starting salaries for people getting out of college are essentially exactly the same as they were in 2000 [1]. Cars have gone up by 5-10% every year. So, something like a Chevy Suburban which cost $30,000 in 2000 is now $50,000 (comparing MSRPs here), but salaries are still the same, so the car is priced out of range. People keep their older cars. Also, instead of people getting rides of their own choosing, they end up being forced to the compact and subcompact sector, not by choice, but out of financial necessity.

    So, if the traffic cam is showing midrange to full size sedans/pickups/SUVS/coupes that are newish (less than 3 years old), the economy is recovering. If you see slews of compacts, subcompacts, and older cars, it means people are not able to afford what they would like to get.

    [1]: The only profession this doesn't really apply to, where earnings actually go up each year, is law. Here, once someone passes their state bar exam, they have a career for life and (barring a felony conviction or disbarment) can never end up unemployed.

  49. Re:eh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's right. The Democrats passed those laws which made Wall Street make housing deals that didn't mean anything or an executive that didn't enforce existing laws...

    Oh wait.

  50. Re:China is capitalism as motivation for the state by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

    Isn't that what Fascism is?

  51. It's IBM not ABM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe that when IBM was formed, it was International Business Machines. There is a reason it isn't called American Business Machines.

  52. When you say government can't do anything right... by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

    ... this is what you get. Other countries jumping ahead of you. It's really a shame that conservatives have convinced everyone that governments can't do anything right except fighting protracted, useless wars, torturing enemies du jour, and spying on citizens. Otherwise we might actually have government projects that could do things that no private enterprise now has the time window to exploit (i.e., things that take longer than a fiscal quarter) - high-speed rail, more secure/robust power infrastructure, supercomputing research - just to name a few. Yes, we "sort of" encourage these sorts of things via government now, but only to a minimal level and with "public-private" partnerships that work worse than a purely governmental solution.

    When the conservatives finally wedge us economically back to the status of a third-world country, I hope they'll be happy with themselves. Because we all know Somalia is the kind of laissez-faire paradise that they've wanted all along.

    --
    That is all.
  53. Weapons dealers, selling to both sides. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This feels like a weapons dealer telling you if you don't buy his stuff the other side will and you will lose, and that he'll fix that with a blank check...

  54. Re:eh by nomadic · · Score: 1

    [1]: The only profession this doesn't really apply to, where earnings actually go up each year, is law. Here, once someone passes their state bar exam, they have a career for life and (barring a felony conviction or disbarment) can never end up unemployed.

    OMG...No. Seriously. Law is probably the most insecure profession right now; thousands of attorneys have been laid off, tens of thousands of struggling solo practitioners are struggling or bankrupt, and the law schools churn out approximately 45,000 graduates a year for, at best, 30,000 positions. Do a google search for "unemployed law graduates" or "law school scam blogs."

  55. not really news anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is what happens when the competition got more disposable income than you do.
    Their flat screen gets bigger, their car becomes cooler than yours, they move to better neighborhoods, ...

  56. I can fix it by ka9dgx · · Score: 1

    I believe a bitgrid chip would cost $10k or so for the first samples. If I'm right about this, it should be capable of scaling into the Exaflop range if you slapped enough of them together, at a cost of $10,000,000.

  57. In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IBM announced two new and totally unrelated government contracts with the United States and China. Stockholders are pleased.

  58. Re:China is capitalism as motivation for the state by ibsteve2u · · Score: 1

    Does calling somebody a name while they're whipping you change the fact that they're whipping you?

    --
    Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
  59. The view of the west on China. by drolli · · Score: 1

    Its funny that nations which manage to get into wars regularly make themselves high moral judges over China at each occasion. Yes, not everything is good in China right now. But they have gone a long way since the beginning of the last century. And don't forget: totalitarianism was an invention of the West, and China is struggling hard to overcome its consequences.

    So, no i don't understand why it not good news that one of the biggest nations develops. In the moment when China develops, salaries and standard of living there will rise. Thats good for the people there and good for the US and Europe, since then jobs will come back.

    Seeing the stability of the region, i would rather prefer a wealthy and well-developed china than a underdeveloped country.

  60. Re:eh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those numbers are a lot better than the numbers for any other major, where the ratio of positions for applications can go from 1 in 2 up to 1 in 10. Even lawyers from T4 schools are certain to get six digit salaries in five years. T3 or T2 school graduates will be rocking 7 digits, especially if they live in NY, LA, Houston, Dallas, or DC. T1 graduates are set for life barring a felony conviction.

    No, it may not be at the premiere Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe law firm, but there is always a place for an attorney. I have yet to see a single J. D. make less than $80,000 a year, while most other fields, people struggle to cut even the 40k mark when they graduate college, this is assuming one can find a job in this economy.

    If this was not the case, then why do high school counselors warn graduating seniors against going into hard sciences and tell them to go the business/law route if they want to be productive citizens in the US?

  61. Re:eh by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    yet from 2003-2007, we were booming

    You know the thing about "booming economies"? They eventually go boom. But the process starts when the bubble appears, not when it bursts.

  62. Re:China is capitalism as motivation for the state by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    Isn't that what Fascism is?

    China is fascist, there's little doubt about it (unlike all those bullshit lists that purport to prove that US is fascist).

    So, now that we've established that fact, is it any consolation? Or one more reason to worry?

  63. Re:eh by riverat1 · · Score: 1

    However, when taxes were lower, government revenues were higher, meaning that we are on the right side of the peak. ("right" meaning direction, not "correct")

    I laughed when I read that. Government revenues typically go up from one year to the next regardless of changes in tax rates simply because of growth in the GDP. The real comparison to make is government revenue as a percentage of GDP. I suspect it's more likely we're on the left side of the Laffer curve.

  64. On related news by bilotrace · · Score: 1
  65. Re:eh by V!NCENT · · Score: 1
    --
    Here be signatures
  66. Re:China is capitalism as motivation for the state by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

    In America, our capitalists insist that the individual's (i.e., their own) interests come before the state's and the people's, and anything that they do is justified by the profit motive even if it should hurt America

    Why has everyone been so negative? Somehow when your neighbor is striving to get ahead, woe is me. To recap the commentary capitalist IBM has sold out to the reds, who knows what they're plotting.

    Maybe the sentiment can be explained. American unemployment is at stagnantly high levels, and look at China, who has been behind for so long, they shouldn't be catching up in the passing lane. Change is alarming, but it's inevitable, and change is everywhere.

    So much for the psychology - look at it from a different economic angle. A stronger China will be a bigger customer with happier citizenry, willing to spend. American small businesses looking for growth should consider exports. They can export to backward third world countries filled with bandits, bad infrastructure, and not much liquid capital, or they can export to China, who is working hard on improving the country and getting richer.

    Whether things will turn out for better or worse is not known. It's all speculation. A major unpredictable rival at the opposite end of the world is sure to make things exciting.

    --
    Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
  67. Re:China is capitalism as motivation for the state by ibsteve2u · · Score: 1

    Why has everyone been so negative?

    I am having difficulty locating the historical records of any successful (let alone dominant) sports teams, businesses, or nations whose philosophy was "Que sera, sera.". Assuming the best will yield you this

    Sharply raising the stakes in a dispute over Japan's detention of a Chinese fishing trawler captain, the Chinese government has blocked exports to Japan of a crucial category of minerals used in products like hybrid cars, wind turbines and guided missiles.

    Chinese customs officials are halting shipments to Japan of so-called rare earth elements, preventing them from being loading aboard ships at Chinese ports, industry officials said on Thursday.

    which is hardly a good thing when the opposing business has leadership that is not blinded by greed and so thinks far longer term than your business leaders do:

    Amid such elemental abundance, your correspondent could not help pondering, as he turned for home, the recent moves by the Chinese to restrict their exports of rare-earth elements--scandium, yttrium and lanthanum, plus the 14 so-called lanthanides. Today, China supplies 97% of the world's demand for rare-earth metals, thanks to a far-sighted government policy going back to the 1960s that envisaged the rare earths as "the oil of the twenty-first century".

    Again, America is cursed with individuals who think that their greed is of paramount importance and if they should endanger America in satiating that greed, then that's not their problem. The essential characteristic of America's right - of America's Republicans - is they feel that they are entitled to accumulate more wealth faster now without any constraints or guidelines whatsoever, and somebody else can worry about tomorrow.

    To repeat myself, it is my judgment that China concluded that predominant characteristic of America's right was and is the greatest weakness that America has and so decades ago they set their hook (in Nixon!). Precisely as anticipated, ever since our right has been eagerly pursuing their twin goals of getting fabulously wealthy while hurting American "labor" (a.k.a. consumers and soldiers; hence, the shortsightedness).

    We decline as China rises, which is an entirely predictable result when you gamble in the Orient using their cards...as anybody who has been in that area eventually learns.

    --
    Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
  68. Re:China is capitalism as motivation for the state by ibsteve2u · · Score: 1

    That obsessive hatred of American labor, by the way, is another weakness with which you can manipulate America's right. Why else would mighty AINO (American in name, only) Rupert Murdoch's organization be running stings on the parking lots of Detroit's automobile manufacturers? lolll...kind of trivial pursuit for a national - no, an international - news organization, unless you have additional goals that benefit from keeping the obsessive hatred of "Business-with-a-capital-B" for American labor primed.

    It rather adds to the argument that America's automobile manufacturers should relocate that last of America's easily-convertible heavy industry offshore, don't you think?

    --
    Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
  69. hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    making a fast computer doesnt seem to be very hard.
    i would like to know how to use such a computer /programming, efficiency of using such machine/.

  70. Re:eh by nomadic · · Score: 1

    Those numbers are a lot better than the numbers for any other major, where the ratio of positions for applications can go from 1 in 2 up to 1 in 10. Even lawyers from T4 schools are certain to get six digit salaries in five years. T3 or T2 school graduates will be rocking 7 digits, especially if they live in NY, LA, Houston, Dallas, or DC. T1 graduates are set for life barring a felony conviction.

    Talking to people who post advertisements for entry-level lawyer positions (requiring a license and 0-3 years), a single advertisement for a 40k a year position will bring in hundreds of resumes, some of them from experienced lawyers who were previously making well into the six figures but who are out of work. Most of the lawyers I know five years out of law school (an upper T2) make substantially less than 80k, and some of them are out of work. T2-T4 graduates who I talk to now tell me most of their fellow law grads do not have jobs at all, not even temp work. Temp work hourly rates have halved in the past few years. And if you are one of the tiny handful of people to get into Kramer Levin (and stay, since they cut a lot of attorney positions lately), the highest-paying firm in the country, and if you managed to last 5 years, you will make approximately $250k a year.

    I do not know where you got your information, but I sincerely hope for your sake you are not in law school.

    If this was not the case, then why do high school counselors warn graduating seniors against going into hard sciences and tell them to go the business/law route if they want to be productive citizens in the US?

    I have never heard a high school counselor say this. I've never heard anyone other than you ever say a high school counselor said this. Students are told repeatedly throughout grades K-12 that the safest, most secure jobs are the technical ones. They are told to go into computer science and engineering. Pundits complain incessantly about US students falling behind in math and science, but ignore the humanities.