Nokia Paying $10M For Symbian Software Devs

colordev writes "Yesterday Nokia and AT&T announced a mobile software coding contest worth $10 million in prize money. The move is intended to help Symbian compete with Android and iOS. The day before this announcement, Sony Ericsson said it would not be making any new Symbian devices and is instead focusing on Android. That left Nokia pretty much alone with Symbian, and now it wants to find new coding 'friends' to keep the platform alive. Natural selection seems to be slowly eroding Symbian's future. Is this contest too late?"

Comments

I think I'll pass

[Anonymous Coward]

So, one of the "prizes" is 1.0M in marketing for you app, and premium placement in the app store. Don't forget YOU are responsible for ALL taxes. What would the tax be on the 1 million dollars of advertising?

Re:I think I'll pass

[Nursie]

Probably not very much as it's not income or profit, it's used to purchase stuff for the business... ?

Re:I think I'll pass

[Lord Byron II]

If you have a "million dollar app", you can either spend $1M advertising it yourself or $1M * 35% (corporate tax rate) = $350K to have them do it for you.

If I have an app that is going to generate sales in excess of $350K (which it is otherwise it won't win the competition), then I'll take their prize and pay the $350K in taxes and think about it like a $650K advertising discount.

Of course, a good accountant should be able to lower your tax burden significantly.

Re:I think I'll pass

[AvitarX]

No you don't. Not if you're a business.

Every expense a business has counts as a tax deduction, and they only pay on the profit.

Re:I think I'll pass

[Romario77]

But you get a 1 million gift. This should be taxable. I am not an accountant, it probably depends, but this looks like a gift and could be considered income that is taxable. I am not sure you can deduct it before taxes if you spend it on marketing.

Re:I think I'll pass

[AvitarX]

For a person, but not for a business.

For a business income is not taxable (unless you count sales tax), only profit.

one million to spend on marketing is not taxable, unless it is not spent.

Businesses don't pay based on income, only profit (which is as it should be, many industries are very slim margin, so a tax on income would be immediately passed down as there is not the margin to absorb any of it).

Re:I think I'll pass

[DragonWriter]

But you get a 1 million gift. This should be taxable. I am not an accountant, it probably depends, but this looks like a gift and could be considered income that is taxable. I am not sure you can deduct it before taxes if you spend it on marketing.

Your ability to deduct the amount of an expenditure from your income as a business expense is generally not dependent on the source of the funds. So, if you spend $1 million for a purpose for which it is a deductible expense, you can deduct it. If you happen to also have received $1 million in taxable income which was used to pay that expense, then those will normally exactly offset with no net tax impact.

Who is Nokia again?

[toastar]

Symbian? Did we time travel to 2004 again?

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Symbian "only" has 44% of the worldwide market share of smartphones. http://www.asymco.com/2010/08/02/android-global-share-rises-to-16-of-smartphones-in-q1/

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[MrEricSir]

They used to have a lot more. 44% is way, way down from a couple years ago.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[DurendalMac]

And it's dropping like a stone and Nokia knows it. Symbian has been sucking hard in comparison to everything else and will be history in a couple of years unless they can turn it around.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[aristotle-dude]

Yes, Symbian "only" has 44% of the worldwide market share of smartphones. http://www.asymco.com/2010/08/02/android-global-share-rises-to-16-of-smartphones-in-q1/

What is a smartphone? Do these smartphones you talk about have similar characteristics as modern smartphones running iOS or Android? Do they have an app store?

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Nursie]

Yes, yes and yes.

You've been able to get add-on software for symbian phones since... well I had one in about 2005/6. Now they have the Ovi store. And yes, a lot of Nokia's Symbian phones are very similar to the competition. Not that that's always a good thing.

Me, I wish they'd drop Symbian in favour of Meego, but it doesn't look like that's happening any time soon. They are adopting Qt for both, which should allow for some portability.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[toopok4k3]

Seeing that the smartphone as a term originated from Nokia. You are kind of wrong by calling it a bizarre definition.

Hell. You'd be able to target over 100 million users with your application if you developed it with Java ME. Nokia sells huge numbers of smartphones in developing countries.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[dangitman]

Seeing that the smartphone as a term originated from Nokia.

Irrelevant. Meanings change, and what Nokia mostly sells would not be considered a "smartphone" by contemporary definition.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

Too sad that opinions about global corporation doings are shaped almost always but their achievements in the American market and media outlets.

Yes Nokia/Symbian is still huge and prosperous, except for the US market. Many statistics you see around showing Apple or RIM or Google at half the market are simply not taking into consideration other markets as well.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Lunix Nutcase]

Yes, Symbian "only" has 44% of the worldwide market share of smartphones.

Did you miss the part where your 44% figure came from last year? The 2nd Quarter figure for this year is only 38%. It's lost 22% of it's market share in less than 2 years. At this rate it's going to be irrelevant in no time.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[gilesjuk]

Mainly due to it running on cheap, boring phones for business. Small screened devices with full keypads

There are lots of these phones out there, to call them "smartphones" is to use a rather old fashioned description for smartphones.

While a smartphone by definition is a phone which can be expanded and have extra software installed, a modern smartphone is so much more.

If you split the smartphone market by business and consumers the figures would be a lot more interesting.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[gilesjuk]

It probably is time to start again. Microsoft could have carried on with the old Windows Mobile. They could have carried on with Win9x architecture, in the end they realised both were tired and not modern enough.

Symbian's origins are nearly 20 years old now.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[dangitman]

Yes Nokia/Symbian is still huge and prosperous, except for the US market. Many statistics you see around showing Apple or RIM or Google at half the market are simply not taking into consideration other markets as well.

What does that have to do with whether what Nokia sells are considered smartphones or not? I never said Nokia didn't have a large marketshare. But if you look at the vast majority of those phones, they are pretty dumb.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[jfanning]

Uh, dropping like a stone?!

Maybe you should check your facts a bit.

http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/F/07/GLB_SMPHN0710.gif

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[jfanning]

Define a smartphone.

Seems that the definition in Wikipedia is covered pretty damn well by Symbian. There is not one single thing that is possible in Android or iOS that isn't possible in Symbian. In fact it is the other way around. Symbian offers services that neither of the others have.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Tolleman]

Ok, so what can your android/iOS device do that a symbian phone cant? Browse the web? Check, with multiple browsers. Run custom apps(perl/python and so on)? Check. Maps and GPS? Check. SSH? Check. Awesome camera? Check. Receive mail? Check. Run 3D games. Check. Videocalls? Check. Well the list could go on. The run of the mill E or N series nokia phone has had the stuff android and ios phones are getting now for ages. However, the phones have still felt like phones. And that may be the thing that has backlashed on them. That and it being a major pain in the ass to code in C++ for them. But hopefully with the new QT-stuff it should be alot easier. I'd say the UI part in android/iOS made the phones feel smarter. But feature wise, they are first now, comming up to the same level. Well none of them have DVB-receivers and fairly few of them have tv-out. But presentation is what the symbian guys really need to work on. Anyway, I need more beer.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[|DeN|niS]

Come on, slashdot used to be smarter than this. Last year iOS was going to be biggest, this year Android is going to be biggest, etc. See also: http://xkcd.com/605/

It has lost market share, but gained users (market has grown). This is without Nokia releasing any proper high end phones during that time. And who cares whether S-E/Samsung uses Symbian, their share was non-existent to begin with.

The 4 announced S^3 devices, and the unnannounced AT&T phone, will sell, and they will sell a lot. Did you have a chance to play with them? I mean for yourself, in your hand. It's easy to make a phone look bad on video. This is a nice review where the reviewer, an iphone4 owner, does not feel insecure about that and thus does not feel the need to go out of his way to bash it just because it is Nokia/not an iPhone: http://www.electricpig.co.uk/2010/09/23/nokia-n8-live-photography-live-qa-join-in-now/

Like he said.. "This is not your daddy's Nokia".

See also: http://www.forum.nokia.com/Distribute/Ovi_Store_statistics.xhtml
Does that look like it's going anywhere? And this is based on S60, which I hate myself. S^3 is worlds above that. Imagine what it is going to do with that, and with Qt, WRT, flash, and java apps, and a nice SDK.

iOS share will stabilize in its niche, Android will battle with WP7 (and people stop saying Windows Mobile, it's not the same thing all), Symbian will increase. Android is not going to take over the world, sorry. If HTC/Samsung for even one second think WP7 will bring them more, (and in terms of maintenance it is a lot easier for them, look at phones still being on Android 1.5, 1.6, 2.1, etc) they'll drop Android like a hot potato. No, Android also will not die, but it's not going to be the king either.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RAMMS EIN]

``Symbian's origins are nearly 20 years old now.''

Linux is nearly 20 years old, too. Arguably, its origin is in Unix, which is about 40 years old. Out go the Linux-based Android, Maemo and Meego. Mac OS X and iPhone OS trace their origin back to NEXTSTEP from 1989. Over 20 years old, so out they go. Palm's webOS is, depending on your point of view, based either on Linux or on World Wide Web technology - both of which are about 20 years old, so that one is obsolete, too. That leaves Blackberry OS and Windows Mobile, both of which originate from 1996.

Or perhaps "old" doesn't mean "not good enough" after all.

Personally, I think that the fact that, after 40 years, we have systems implementing the Unix APIs on everything from embedded systems to supercomputers, and from specialty devices that virtually nobody has ever heard of to consumer devices like desktop computers, phones, and televisions, means that those APIs are good and one could do worse than continuing to use them.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[DomNF15]

Agreed - and probably only a large percentage (44%) because Nokia is such a global leader in cellular devices. I don't think people are buying Symbian, they are buying Nokia hardware that happens to run Symbian. It's not like iOS/Android, where people are more entranced with the operating system/user experience than the device it comes on. Symbian has been around for a while, longer than both of it's major competitors. If it's not dying, it's at least not getting the market attention that iOS and Android are...

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

See Tolleman's excellent reply. Your definition about dumbness and smartness in phones is pretty hazy.

For me (and for Nokia), a smartphone is a phone with an advanced OS that its uses are mainly extended by complex apps. By this definition Series 40 phones are dumbphones and Symbian are smartphones.

MeeGo, although technically smartphones can be much much more, if Nokia gets that right in the future. We will see.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[dangitman]

Ok, so what can your android/iOS device do that a symbian phone cant?

Be user friendly?

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[rrossman2]

Nokia phones also support anything and everything under the sun. I have an older N95 (original, not 8GB, which puts it around 2007ish). Out of the box it supports SIP/VoIP, even having settings for Internet Telephony. With it setup, when I place a call the phone asks if I'd like to use SIP or my cellular plan. Supports a lot of the bluetooth profiles, and you can download apps for the ones not already setup on the phone, Infared, etc, etc, etc. It plays OGG, MP3, ACC, WMA, etc and a lot of video formats too. Uses Real Player to support Youtube and many other streaming sites. Front facing camera so you can do Video calls as well (as long as the carrier supports it), and even if they don't you can use Fring or another app to hold your video calls with another phone that supports it... which isn't Fring on an Android. I mean the capabilities of the phones are amazing. The downside is, the CPU's are slow, and it shows when you pick an option in a menu. Theres a delay/lag between screens.

You'd be hard pressed to find another phone from around 2007 (maybe earlier, not sure when all those features made it into the Symbian/Nokia setup) that comes out of the box as loaded as they do.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Lunix Nutcase]

Come on, slashdot used to be smarter than this.

Huh? I was only quoting the AC's own article which he used as backing for his statements. I'm sorry if it says something you don't like, but I wasn't the one who drug it up.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Luckyo]

Why? There's a boatload of software for symbian already, dating back to 2004 or so, most of it compatible with current versions. You're probably asking for a new UI, which is a different thing.

As an actual underlying OS, symbian can give any of the competition a head start, and still beat it by a mile. It's a very robust kernel, specifically designed for mobile devices, which allows it to perform same functions (and often more) then IOS and Android, while consuming much less hardware resources.

The problem is that UI in current gen of western symbian phones is very dated, and runs on even more dated hardware - specifically ARM11 at slightly over 400mhz with 128MB RAM for touchscreens and even less for those with keyboards and keypads. If you want to see symbian with flashier UI, you can turn to japanese phones using MOAP, which is essentially symbian with their own propietary UI on top. Those phones essentially blocked entry to iphones and android phones in Japan, in spite of massive marketing effort, and fixed follow ups showing apple having up to 60% of "smartphone market" while barely commanding a single digit number mostly among local hardcore apple fanbase in reality.

The beauty of symbian is in its phone and small mobile device-centric design - something that competition sorely lacks and is very visible, especially in terms of battery life.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Zelos]

As I understand it, Nokia has maintained their numerical share by selling low-end smartphones, especially in emerging markets, while completely ceding the high end 'proper' smartphone market to iOS and Android (ie. the part of the market that buys apps and actually uses the 'smart' bit of a smartphone).

Hence their massive drop in profit share and the fact that (in my experience at least) commuter trains are now a sea of iPhones, Blackberries and Android phones with only a few Nokia low-end phones around.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[drc003]

Notice how he hasn't answered a single one of these replies? Probably because he is a iOS/Android fanboy who has no idea what he is talking about.

If you don't like Symbian then you should be pushing for Maemo or MeeGo.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[BitZtream]

And you're ignoring the fact that Symbian is dropping like a rock everywhere.

Its not dead yet, but its certainly got some form of cancer and needs treatment quickly.

Will this save it? No, this is a direct indication that Nokia sees whats coming though. That means they are fully aware they are getting their butts kicked.

Its not too late for it, they still DO have massive amounts of devices out there, but they have to do something to stop the leak, otherwise in a couple more years they will be irrelevant everywhere, not just in the US.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

It is dropping like rock by the lack of competitive devices (N8) and updated UI and development environment (Symbian^3). Both issues have been addressed now.

Just give them time, the double OS strategy (MeeGo/Symbian) using a simple development kit and SDK is genius and in the long run it will bear fruit. Hardware-wise Nokia has always been extremely strong. Now their OSes and tools are finally catching app with the competition.

Don't underestimate Qt. If Nokia doesn't fail with the marketing effort, Qt can alone save the day. It's spectacular what you can do with it!

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Jazzbunny]

Yes rest of the world uses Nokia just happily, but I wonder why the North American market is so hard for them. Anyone got some insight on this? Is it carrier problem or some NIH syndrome as it was with Toyota acceleration problem only occurring at the USA?

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[|DeN|niS]

The US basically does not have SIM-only contracts. To sell phones you need to do so through an operator. Operators insist of things like disabling frequencies of competing carriers, disabling tethering, installing crapware ("Verizon navigator" anyone), etc. Nokia always stayed away from this, and this has been fine as the US market has always been a bit backwards anyway. However, it has become a whole different market in the last few years, and worth getting into, as shown by this AT&T deal. We'll have to see what kind of device(s) with what kind of features come out. Incidentally, doesn't the iPhone exclusivity run out H1 2011 ?

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[johanw]

At least Symbian also runs on compact devices with a normal keypad and NO touchscreen. I don't like touchscreens, I want to pack my phone in a decent leather case and use it while it's still in it which is virtually impossible with touchscreens.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Chart says all.

Having marketshare is -nothing-. GM had massive market share, but profits blew. If Nokia keeps this up they're going to quickly become nothing in the mobile market. It's not going to be worth it to Nokia shareholders to keep making Nokia handsets. The margins on nokia handsets are pretty razor thin as it is.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Yeah, and the Chevy Aveo should've been competitive with similar entry level vehicles from Honda, Hyundai and Toyota, but, GM still went bankrupt.

I have zero faith that Symbian^3 and MeeGo can compete on any front with iOS or Android or even WinMo and BlackBerry 6. OPK going away is a huge bad omen for Nokia, and his replacement really doesn't inspire faith in me either. Nokia needs a guy who understands devices and people, not yet another over promoted middle manager.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

That is one F-d up chart. It has three categories [apple], [nokia, samsung, lg], and [others]. You cannot conclude anything about any other company other than apple. Its the only one segregated out.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[arose]

As I understand it, Nokia has maintained their numerical share by selling low-end smartphones, especially in emerging markets

Gasp, how dare they serve an otherwise neglected market!

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

This clear enough for you?

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

The brand has had a 15 year lead time to build robust, usable and competent mobile phones. Nokia should've beaten Apple to the Multitouch punch. They didn't. they should've beaten them to the browser punch. They didn't. They should've beaten them on so many different fronts. I don't think they've got any visionaries at the top who can actually build product.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[MrEricSir]

I'm not sure people with leather phone fetishes are enough to keep Nokia in business.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

I wasn't arguing that Nokia wasn't tanking. Just that the chart sucked. I hate bad statistics and bad charts. Its like asking some one what the capital of the USA is and getting the response " 2+3= 7, therefore its washington DC".

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

You seem to forget history. In technology you only need ONE disruptive product or service and it can be done. Apple has been in the verge of collapse on its own for many many years in the late 90s but it survived. Nokia has been even more times in difficulty in its 100-year-old history.

The reason Nokia is not making much of profit is that it has lost the battle in the upper-class smartphones, those that have the highest margins. Apple is totally nonexistent in developing markets with relatively cheap models. Don't underestimate China, India, and South America.

And for God's sake, NOW the time is ripe, NOW finally Symbian^3 has nothing to envy and N8 is a hugely capable device.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

Come on, dude, seriously. The comparison with the car industry is totally inaccurate. For many reasons.

First, the automotive technology is much slower to develop. You don't have the disruptive leaps we see in the mobile devices' segment.

Second, GM went bankrupt for many more reasons than you can possibly imagine, not because it was selling low-profit cars. If that was the case, why was Ferrari ever bought from FIAT back in the 80s?

Third, when you finally take off your blindfolds and actually PLAY with a Symbian^3 OS (even on a simulator!) you'll see that it has nothing to do with previous generations albeit the name.

Fourth, the Qt toolkit is a major winner for every developer, amateur and professional. Hell, it can even target Mac and who knows if a crazy dude doesn't create a fork for iOS as well now that the third-party development tools are allowed again by dictatorial Apple.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Qt toolkit's not a driver for Symbian^3 sales.

Symbian^3's a fucking mess. Where the hell do you DO anything? It tells you a lot but, that home screen is incredibly stupid and busy. with Android it's a little confusing, and with iOS there's absolutely no ambiguity.

3 years ago, it was Maemo, now it's Symbian^3 and MeeGo.

How about no?

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Cheap models are shitty profit margins. This used to work for Nokia but Nokia's profit margins now blow because no one's buying their high end gear.

They need profit. To generate profit they need to justify commanding a premium price. Nokia's been in the market for mobiles for what I'd gather is 2 decades. I'll buy that they aren't marketing as well as Apple is. Here's the difference, the reason why Apple's marketing is slick and as effective as it is has little to do with brand whoring, it has to do with how well they know users as people, and not merely people who just buy product. When I saw the iPod keynote streamed, it was like any other product demo I've seen at CES or COMDEX. The difference is, is that the products didn't suck.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

Having widgets that provide information (mails, notifications, weather, sports, etc) on your homepage is a... mess?!

What are you talking about, dude? The iOS homescreen is soooo 2007, only stupid icons that provide no info whatsoever. Hell, even the notification system in the iOS is a mess and even Apple fanboys admit it.

Maemo == MeeGo, for most purposes, don't worry. The Qt IS a driver for Symbian and MeeGo and everything because the real lack of Nokia today is in the apps department.

That's why they propose these $10 million app contests, what have were you thinking?

When Symbian/MeeGo finally get all the apps iPhones get, the superior Nokia hardware will do the rest.

Check this example. This is the current situation, damnit. iPhone gets all the apps so people believe it's "better". It's not. All phones can virtually do the same stuff these days, the thing is Nokia and others were lacking at their development tools. It was difficult and not worthy to create Symbian apps.

This is changing with the Qt. N8-class phones will do there rest.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

Admitting Apple is all about marketing is admitting you're an idiot that falls for commercials.

I don't give a shit about marketing, I do 99% of the stuff most people do with their iPhones using web interfaces and the most common apps that are available for all platforms.

Yes, there is a 1% of good and worthy apps that are iPhone-only, but high-prize contests such as this one by Nokia and AT&T will cover the distance soon enough. Now that the Qt toolkit is mature enough for mobile development, no good developer can ignore porting his/her best apps to the largest market.

Oh, and Nokia's comeback to the highest segment (call me N8) will do the rest. And don't get me started about MeeGo... :)

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Nursie]

Why?

I'm a geek and I like have linux on my phone, that's all :)

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Eunuchswear]

So you have a N900.

(Android is not Linux).

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[jfanning]

Exactly. If you follow the US media and commentators it is obvious they expect that only rich white people deserve smartphones.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Steve Max]

You can use Ovi Store through the phone's web browser on any Nokia phone (even on dumbphones, where it will offer just J2ME applications). I'm pretty sure that devices from other manufacturers (like Samsung's Omnia HD / i8910) can be made to access Ovi store too.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Steve Max]

That's the beauty of Symbian. It was built from the ground up with a single reason: to be used in an environment where every resource was limited; therefore, every resource is expensive and the kernel (and apps) avoid them if possible. In other words, the kernel (and every well-written application) use as few resources as possible. Compare that to Android (for example), where applications work inside a virtual machine, and you will see that Symbian will work well with slower CPUs, less RAM, etc.

So yes, Nokia's specifications on paper will look dated (680MHz ARM11 on a high end phone?!), but the OS is way more efficient, and it will fly even with limited resources. That's not "selling low end hardware to inflate the market share", it's "selling hardware that matches the platform's requirements".

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

I was hinting at the idea that their product design and their marketing both come from understanding how people operate. Not that it's all marketing. You can't polish a turd, which is the task that many tech marketing firms have to do. If it was just marketing, the iPhone would've been dead in 2008 and relegated to the bargin bin of useless phones like every other fad phone before it. The iPhone revolutionized the way everyone made smart phones. BlackBerry's torch? Windows Phone 7's UI? No one was talking multitouch before 2007 on the phones in the way they are now. Nokia admits to stealing the iPhone design back in 07. Seriously.

If there is something good in the world then we copy with pride

Gimme a fucking break. Nokia's in -trouble-. Serious trouble. None of their VPs, SVPs, their CxO's, etc. have no brand or product vision, or if they do, it is either lousy or they are too afraid to be bold enough to rock the boat.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Having widgets that provide information (mails, notifications, weather, sports, etc) on your homepage is a... mess?!

Yes, yes it is.

When there's lots of it on a tiny, busy screen, it's a freaking mess.

What are you talking about, dude? The iOS homescreen is soooo 2007, only stupid icons that provide no info whatsoever. Hell, even the notification system in the iOS is a mess and even Apple fanboys admit it.

If it's 2007, then 2008 and 2009 must have been terrible. The default Android homescreen isn't this cluttered.

Maemo == MeeGo, for most purposes, don't worry. The Qt IS a driver for Symbian and MeeGo and everything because the real lack of Nokia today is in the apps department.

That's why they propose these $10 million app contests, what have were you thinking?

Maemo 6 you mean. Maemo's been promised for years from Nokia to show up on phone hardware, and it hasn't. Symbian^3's last 3rd party hardware developer, Sony Ericsson, jumped fucking ship for Android.

When Symbian/MeeGo finally get all the apps iPhones get, the superior Nokia hardware will do the rest.

All 250,000 of them? Android hasn't even hit those numbers. Nokia's had over a decade to hit those numbers, they haven't. in 2006, mobile analysts were questioning the future of mobile applications, funny enough. Now, they're driving sales. Nokia, again, missed the fucking boat.

Check this example. This is the current situation, damnit. iPhone gets all the apps so people believe it's "better". It's not. All phones can virtually do the same stuff these days, the thing is Nokia and others were lacking at their development tools. It was difficult and not worthy to create Symbian apps.

This is changing with the Qt. N8-class phones will do there rest.

Your example is antithetical. :)

I don't speak a word of German but the iPhone app has like, 5 feature points but every other phone has 2.

From my command of English, it looks like the iPhone app can do things like find ATMs and handle prepaid transactions. Android and Nokia phones should be able to do geolocation but why isn't the feature listed there?

The N8 is going to be Nokia's end. The N8 is hardly revolutionary, and hardly an example of trying to change the landscape of mobile devices.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

You may think it's a mess, many others think not. I, for one, crave for some widgets on my home screen. It's instant information without having to unlock the phone and navigate to an app.

It's 2007. Hell, Steve didn't even care to give us info-bearing icons for the applications. Apart from the calendar icon, not even the temperature (weather) one carries any data WITHOUT opening an app first. This sucks. And it's getting old soon.

SE jumped ship for tactical reasons, not strategic. It still remains a Symbian council member. If Symbian^3 and ^4 prove to be successes it may always come back.

Maemo = MeeGo from most developers points of view. Same philosophy. No Jobsonian limits.

Give Nokia some time. Yes they lost precious time because they didn't invest early enough on an alternative OS, but now Symbian provides everything an iOS has. And on better hardware. Of course you can always be a fanboy and not see all that.

You obviously didn't get my example. I wanted to prove INDEED the only advantage of iPhone right now. Apps! But this will change soon now that the Qt SDK is alive and kicking. It's so much easier to port apps on the multitude of Nokia devices. Both top of the line MeeGos and cheapo Symbians.

As for the N8, it's just the begginning of the end. Expect Nokia U (the community-designed model) to kick ass once it arrives.

Word of advice: sell your Apple stocks ASAP! :p

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

How people operate? Hey, this has been Nokia's ability for the decade before Apple stole that crown. Give me a break and learn about the history of mobile phones, at least in Europe.

Apple indeed proved that you can succeed with a touch-screen phone only, but it was also a success made possible by the iPod that came before it and paved the way. The 2G and 3G iPhones were really ridiculous specs-wise, but fanboys would still use them.

Only last year (3GS) we finally had a nice, fast phone. So, seriously, it's only these last two years Nokia didn't have any alternatives to offer.

I know you're a fanboy, I can read it in your sig. Perhaps you even have Apple stocks so you want to influence here, but let's cut the crap and speak facts.

Apple disrupted the market in 2007. Nokia didn't have good alternatives to show. Now it has. And with the Qt, the days will be much more fan for Nokia customers now.

Qt gets raving reviews for desktop applications, imagine what it can do to the mobile business since it might be able to target even Windows Phone 7 and Chrome NaCl in the future.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

It's 2007. Hell, Steve didn't even care to give us info-bearing icons for the applications. Apart from the calendar icon, not even the temperature (weather) one carries any data WITHOUT opening an app first. This sucks. And it's getting old soon.

You think it's a good idea for a phone to be always connected to some server to be told how hot or cold it is outside? You don't see how this could say, impact the battery?

Give Nokia some time. Yes they lost precious time because they didn't invest early enough on an alternative OS, but now Symbian provides everything an iOS has. And on better hardware. Of course you can always be a fanboy and not see all that.

Uhm, better hardware?

Screen resolution is lower on the N8, battery is weaker, slower CPU, half the ram, nearly identical GPU(I'd be willing to wager lower GPU RAM too) the only thing the N8 trumps the iPhone on is the 12 Megapixel camera, which is pointless because the lens on cel phone cameras suck. All that 12 megapixel camera's doing is just providing the same grainy photographs but using more space. When you publish these images to the web, it gets downsampled anyway. It doesn't even do HDR!

Beyond that, devices are more than just their spec sheet, it's the whole user experience and ecosystem. Nokia's losing on this front, RIM and Microsoft are at least *trying*.

Give Nokia some time. Yes they lost precious time because they didn't invest early enough on an alternative OS, but now Symbian provides everything an iOS has. And on better hardware. Of course you can always be a fanboy and not see all that.

Giving Nokia more time is like asking for to give the captain of the Titanic more time to tape over the holes in the hull.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

C'mon, they can get that data over push technology or query the server every 15-30 minutes. As it does with your mail.

Hardware comparison is not easily dismissed by pure processor frequency numbers. The Symbian OS has been historically much more easier to the resources of the smartphone. This also explains the legendary battery life. You have to actually use the phone to say. Previews so far say that the N8 is fast like a snap.

And yes, the 12 MPixel camera blows the competition away. Search for some reviews, both for static pictures and video. :)

Give Nokia some time means be realistic. We gave time 10 years from 1998 when Bill was saving it with some pocket cash app to 2008 when the iPhone revolutionized the mobile apps world.

Just admit it. It's time to sell those Apple stocks... :D

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

How people operate? Hey, this has been Nokia's ability for the decade before Apple stole that crown. Give me a break and learn about the history of mobile phones, at least in Europe.

The reason why Nokia had a huge share of the pie was that they were one of the first big handset developers in the early part of the 90's, and they didn't bother putting out decent devices when they could've then, and they stagnated because they assumed that because their past models sold, their future models will sell equally as well. Now Apple's eating their lunch of the high profit margin smartphone market and Nokia's bleeding money trying to sell so uselessly-smart-they're-dumb phones to emerging markets.

I know you're a fanboy, I can read it in your sig. Perhaps you even have Apple stocks so you want to influence here, but let's cut the crap and speak facts.

ever wonder why anyone's a fanboy? I know Apple doesn't need me defending it, they're a big boy company, but, Nokia's business is being absolutely savaged by Apple, RIM and Android devices.

Apple disrupted the market in 2007. Nokia didn't have good alternatives to show. Now it has. And with the Qt, the days will be much more fan for Nokia customers now.

Nokia has nothing. The whole Symbian ecosystem is horrible. Their company lacks vision for their products. Nokia's got major problems. Qt isn't going to fix the enthusiasm gap among consumers. No one's going to care what the software platform is for the phone except a bunch of neckbeards obsessed with APIs and platform openness.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

C'mon, they can get that data over push technology or query the server every 15-30 minutes. As it does with your mail.

Yes, yes they can, but out of the box, the iPhone is pushing -no- data to itself, out of the box it looks like the N8's pushing... quite a bit.

And yes, the 12 MPixel camera blows the competition away. Search for some reviews, both for static pictures and video. :)

I have, doesn't beat HDR that iPhone 4 does, and it's about as good as a phone's going to get.

Give Nokia some time means be realistic. We gave time 10 years from 1998 when Bill was saving it with some pocket cash app to 2008 when the iPhone revolutionized the mobile apps world.

The difference between Nokia and Apple is, when given time, Apple put out the iMac and the iPod family while working on the iPad. Giving Nokia more time means that we're going to get a bunch of suits who are sniffing each other's asses trying to figure out which focus group they can best leverage for greater market share(as opposed to developing better phones).

Just admit it. It's time to sell those Apple stocks... :D

Not a fucking chance. it's not even fucking close.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

Here we go again.. Do we really have to repeat ourselves?

They DID put decent devices in respect to the competition, that's why they were number 1 for the greater part of the last decade. They only thing they didn't do well was to calculate the disrupting effects of the iPhone approach in upper-level devices in 2007. THREE years ago and with real effects only the last year or so.

Apple is eating their lunch NOW, no one can say if it will be the case forever, especially when one misstep from Apple (close call with the antenna issues of iPhone 4!) can reverse the situation in no time.

Yes, I've wondered why some guys become fanboys. It's the moment when you lose touch with reality because of some fancy new way of presenting the same old technology as new yet again. That's why people now days almost always talk about Apple fanboys. It's the moment you become myopic and don't admit anymore that competition is closing the gaps and you don't have a such cool product albeit you pay a fortune to have it.

As a for the Symbian ecosystem, you obviously haven't tried Symbian^3 even for a demo. I thought fanboys were crying wolf about its resemblance with iOS? So how can it be horrible when you do almost everything the iOS do, but adding more freedom against obscure and ridiculous Jobsonian rules?

The developers care about openness. Only apps are missing for the moment from Symbian. The rest is all here.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Kensai7]

The data exchanged by the widgets is ridiculously low. It's a non issue. Everyone using such a phone (and an iPhone too) have a flat rate connection now days. But even if not, you can always cancel them and regain your screen estate. See? The liberty approach from Symbian is a far cry from the militaristic iOS which is Steve's way or the highway.

HDR? Hahaha, you're talking me about a software tech that arrived just DAYS ago and it can always come to Nokia as we speak. I'm talking you about the raw hardware capabilities of the N8 against the iPhone 4. Both in video and still pictures.

As for the time issues. While working for the iPad as you say, hello?! They worked for the iMac/iPod since last century (1999) to say the least. Nokia in that time will have completely transformed itself to the Internet company it wants to become, having profits from hardware smartphones only as a minor segment.

But it's only speculation. All next year models from Nokia will have NFC and MeeGo is about to arrive in a fully customizable superdevice that will blow the competition out of the water.

Forget the Apple stock trends. They show the past. Time to sell those Apple stocks and cash out when you can. You'll become poor in no time.

Sell sell sell!

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[|DeN|niS]

"""Uhm, better hardware? .. Beyond that, devices are more than just their spec sheet, it's the whole user experience and ecosystem."""

Contradiction much?

"""the 12 Megapixel camera, which is pointless because the lens on cel phone cameras suck. All that 12 megapixel camera's doing is just providing the same grainy photographs but using more space. When you publish these images to the web, it gets downsampled anyway."""

Yeah about that lens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtIFBMbiaPo&feature=player_embedded
Yeah about that camera: http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/07/08/nokia-n8-camera-2260-days-in-the-making-part-12/ and http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/07/09/nokia-n8-camera-2260-days-in-the-making-part-22/

HDR? that you've never mentioned until Apple added it recently? http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/07/27/nokia-n900-fcam-hdr-and-low-light-examples/ (that's before the iphone added it, and will come to N8). Other nice things in the N8 (and its S^3 siblings) are automatic panorama: http://dailymobile.se/2010/09/21/nokia-n8-panorama-photo/

Resolution? N8 is 210ppi, nothing wrong with that. And certainly never was an issue for iphone fans until the iphone 4 (up until then they had 163ppi).

"""You think it's a good idea for a phone to be always connected to some server to be told how hot or cold it is outside? You don't see how this could say, impact the battery?"""

Widgets know when the screen is on, when the network is up, and which screen you are looking it. They do not update otherwise. Oh, and you can see if you missed a call without having to unlock your phone. Battery life is very good on the N8, even when using widgets: http://www.electricpig.co.uk/2010/09/23/nokia-n8-live-photography-live-qa-join-in-now/ as told by an iphone 4 user.

Now obviously you're just a troll, but I hope some might find these links useful.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[badkarmadayaccount]

Simple - port Linux to Symbian (it's a microkernel - like Xen's predecessor).

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Contradiction much?

You know it's possible to be wrong about something and also be wrong to bring it up in the first place.

Yeah about that lens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtIFBMbiaPo&feature=player_embedded
Yeah about that camera: http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/07/08/nokia-n8-camera-2260-days-in-the-making-part-12/ and http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/07/09/nokia-n8-camera-2260-days-in-the-making-part-22/

HDR? that you've never mentioned until Apple added it recently? http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/07/27/nokia-n900-fcam-hdr-and-low-light-examples/ (that's before the iphone added it, and will come to N8). Other nice things in the N8 (and its S^3 siblings) are automatic panorama: http://dailymobile.se/2010/09/21/nokia-n8-panorama-photo/

Okay, so the camera's nice, but, not by much, and Nokia hasn't shipped HDR in a phone device. The N900 is more like an expensive ass MID.

Now obviously you're just a troll, but I hope some might find these links useful.

Nokia's still doomed. The N8 isn't as nice as the iPhone, or any of the high end Android devices. The US has caught up with Europe in terms of quality of phone and has now blown Nokia out of the water. Apple and Google will continue to eat Nokia's lunch. Nokia's not even popular in Finland anymore.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Nursie]

Yes absolutely, and I love it, it's an awesome little device!

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[exomondo]

So you have a N900.

(Android is not Linux).

Well it pretty much is, it runs a linux kernel with some extra bits that google added themselves.

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[Eunuchswear]

So Linux is just the kernel, eh?

Re:Who is Nokia again?

[exomondo]

So Linux is just the kernel, eh?

Yes, of course it is. What else is there?

Why AT&T?

[oldhack]

Why's the evil one behind this?

The prize is only $100,000.

[Animats]

The Grand Prize is only $100,000. Most of the "winners" just get some upcoming Nokia device. "Winning" means that the app receives "$1 million" in marketing promotion: "a Nokia press release, premium placement on Ovi Store, placement in Nokia digital and social media efforts, and direct consumer messaging via email and/or SMS." In other words, winning means Nokia spams for your app.

Nokia takes a 30% cut on sales through their "Ovi Store", so they're promoting themselves.

Nokia's total outlay on this "contest" is probably under $1 million.

Re:The prize is only $100,000.

[|DeN|niS]

Oh you're such a dick. Do you work for engadget? With your skills of linking to a source and misquoting it completely, you should.

Quote: "51 Category Winner Prizes - Each of the verified Eligible Entrants that published one of the seventeen (17) Apps selected as a First Prize Category Winner will receive a check for $150,000 USD / $156,229 CAD. Each of the verified Eligible Entrants that published one of the seventeen (17) Apps selected as a Second Prize Category Winner will receive a check for $50,000 USD / $52,076 CAD. Each of the verified Eligible Entrants that published one of the seventeen (17) Apps selected as a Third Prize Category Winner will receive a check for $25,000 USD / $26,028 CAD. Total value of Category Winner prizes $3,825,000 USD / $3,983,661 CAD."

The 100k (times two) comes ON TOP of the 150k.

But of course when you're not busy being a dick on the internet, you're netting 250k per app writing iOS/Android apps, right, so this is hardly worth your time.

If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[ADRA]

1. Ditch the goal of moving Symbian to anything beyond dumb phones with cameras
2. Change the name of Meego to ANYTHING ELSE
3. Release Meego completely OSS and don't hamper people wanting to go in and tinker
4. Start rolling out both (Official stock) Android and Meego on devices and allow for the devices to switch back and forth between the two
5. Release a marketing campaign to choose 'the next look of Nokia'
6. Analyze which OS is getting better market traction and phase out the loser
7.Profit More!

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[mark72005]

1. Be the "open" android platform, allowing users clean installs without root or sideloading.
2. ???
3. Profit

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[Microlith]

4. Start rolling out both (Official stock) Android and Meego on devices and allow for the devices to switch back and forth between the two

These are mutually exclusive endeavors. Releasing Android puts you in the position of your users being dependent on Google (and Google dictating terms to you for access to the Android Market,) while fragmenting your userbase across both platforms.

They just need to release a MeeGo device with a simple bootloader unlock so I can have a better user experience with the same hands-off nature that my N900 provides.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[DurendalMac]

Yes, because the market of people who know how to do that is huge, right?

Oh, wait, it's a tiny niche made up of geeks.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[Microlith]

Irrelevant. They can still provide a good user experience without locking down the device to an almost punitive level.

Of course, the exact same thing could be said for your regular computer. You don't need all that functionality, only a tiny niche of geeks do. Let us lock that down for you...

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[MrHanky]

Symbian has always been the OS for smartphones. I don't quite get how they could "move" something beyond something which it never was.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[dangitman]

You don't need all that functionality, only a tiny niche of geeks do. Let us lock that down for you...

Hell yes! To stop all the idiots out there from randomly executing applications would be a huge benefit, might just shut down spam and malware overnight.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[dangitman]

Symbian has always been the OS for smartphones.

If that's the case, then why are the phones running Symbian not too smart?

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[Microlith]

Well, don't go thinking you're somehow exempt from this. You get the ball and chain too...

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[mark72005]

It doesn't matter to 99% of consumers if the platform is open source or not. Nearly zero consumers even know what that means.

What could have an impact would be marketing a clean, bloatware free phone as a clean, bloatware free phone.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[dangitman]

Well, don't go thinking you're somehow exempt from this. You get the ball and chain too...

Why? Is it not possible to have locked-down devices for the people who don't know what they are doing, and more powerful, open machines for those who do?

I don't see why this would have to be an all-or-nothing deal. Mom and Grandpa have their iPad, I have my desktop workstation.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[Kensai7]

If that's the case, then why are the phones running Symbian not too smart?

It depends how you define smartness. If your definition is "how many fart apps you sport" then they're probably happy they are dummies. :)

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

android as a plataform allows the user (or the phone manufacturer) to install an alternative app store in place of android market, or even side-by-side with it.

if you download a trully stock android from the developer site, it barelly have a browser and phone app. google have _zero_ controll over android and over what apps goes with the handsets. that's the beauty of opensource.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[Kensai7]

It doesn't matter to 99% of consumers if the platform is open source or not. Nearly zero consumers even know what that means

Who told you it's all about customers? I believe the OSS moniker is for the developers, professional and amateur.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[TejWC]

1. Ditch the goal of moving Symbian to anything beyond dumb phones with cameras

Many people outside of US still use it and want some compatibility with their old phones.

2. Change the name of Meego to ANYTHING ELSE

MeeGo is just the name of the SDK / developer platform. Most consumers will not see that name when they purchase the phone.

3. Release Meego completely OSS and don't hamper people wanting to go in and tinker

You can now.

4. Start rolling out both (Official stock) Android and Meego on devices and allow for the devices to switch back and forth between the two

You can run MeeGo on N900. I think you can install Android on it too. MeeGo is not ready for any other device yet; not because Nokia doesn't want you to port it, simply because MeeGo doesn't have to features yet to handle any other kind of phone. Nokia doesn't think MeeGo is ready for primetime yet so you will not see it on any other phone for some time.

5. Release a marketing campaign to choose 'the next look of Nokia'

Wait until Q2 2011. I am not allowed to say anything else.

6. Analyze which OS is getting better market traction and phase out the loser

Nokia already said that they are moving to Linux/MeeGo. Qt is the "bridge" to move developers from one to another (just like how Carbon was used to move from MacOS classic to MacOS X). Talking to the people at Nokia, they already consider Symbian to be "legacy" and are already moving to MeeGo.

7.Profit More!

I hope Nokia will.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[Microlith]

Why? Is it not possible to have locked-down devices for the people who don't know what they are doing, and more powerful, open machines for those who do?

Because, the majority will drag the minority with them. You can have your open machine, but it'll cost you a thousand or so more than it does today. And on the mobile end, you won't have any open options at all.

It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing, but Apple and MS certainly want it to be that way.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[dangitman]

Because, the majority will drag the minority with them. You can have your open machine, but it'll cost you a thousand or so more than it does today

Why? Do you have an argument based on evidence, or are you just declaring this? The evidence shows that Moore's law is still in effect. It's not likely we'll have a sudden transistor shortage.

And on the mobile end, you won't have any open options at all.

Oh right, like the ever-declining mobile options we have today? Oh, that's right, we have more choices, and more power than ever before.

It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing, but Apple and MS certainly want it to be that way.

Again, where is your evidence of this? Back in the real world, both Apple and Microsoft have been offering more options in terms of OS and software than they ever have before.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[Anne Thwacks]

There are tons of apps for Symbian smart phones. Unfortuantely, owning to the "Signed by Sybian" lockdown, you cant install them, or if somehow you mange, their certificate expires, o some othe grief, and though isntalled, they wont actually run. I have here as evidence, a SOny Ericson P1i, which is a wonderful phone, capable of superhuman feats, with the most amazing hardware keyboard, that is compact, but easy to use, except that it isn't any use, because of "Signed by Symbian".

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[Microlith]

Why? Do you have an argument based on evidence, or are you just declaring this? The evidence shows that Moore's law is still in effect. It's not likely we'll have a sudden transistor shortage.

This has nothing to do with Moore's law and everything to do with economies of scale. If it's more profitable to crank out lots of low end chips for mobile devices, they'll do so. Anyone who wants the high end chips will pay the premiums for them, or figure out how to make the low end ones work.

Oh right, like the ever-declining mobile options we have today? Oh, that's right, we have more choices, and more power than ever before.

And how many of them are anywhere near as open as your desktop PC?

Apple? No.
Android? Kinda, unless you bought Motorola. And even if you didn't, you have to root it.
Windows Phone 7? No.

There's a handful of devices that are open, but they don't run the major three platforms you find in the US.

Again, where is your evidence of this? Back in the real world, both Apple and Microsoft have been offering more options in terms of OS and software than they ever have before.

And in the mobile world, every offering they're coming out with is locked down. No doubt they desire to push this back upwards in the stack, and I suspect that they will be trying very hard in the next 10 years to do so. And if you don't believe me, I suggest taking a close look at processors from both ARM and Intel that are coming in the next few years. They're -very- geared to delivering performance in mobile, low power situations.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[Kensai7]

"Signed by Symbian" is a thing of the past with the new Qt procedures. It's a much more straightforward procedure now.

See? This kind of non-updated information is that hurts Symbian, not the platform's capabilities themselves.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[dangitman]

This has nothing to do with Moore's law and everything to do with economies of scale. If it's more profitable to crank out lots of low end chips for mobile devices, they'll do so.

But mobile devices will eventually be as powerful as current desktop machines, so you could just use those chips. Even if desktop PC sales decline, there will still be laptops. And even if both desktops and laptops decline, it's highly unlikely that economies of scale would cause the $1,000 difference you claim.

There's also this thing called competition, which helps keep prices in check.

And how many of them are anywhere near as open as your desktop PC?

As opposed to all the open mobile phone platforms that existed before iPhone and Android? Oh, that's right - they were locked down even tighter back then.

No doubt they desire to push this back upwards in the stack, and I suspect that they will be trying very hard in the next 10 years to do so.

Which must explain why Apple's current desktop OS offering is so much more open than "classic" Mac OS, and comes with a UNIX command line, and contributes to Open Source projects, etc.

Again, competition. If Apple were to close down the desktop OS, they would lose a lot of customers. And there's always Linux - or is there some nefarious scheme in your worldview where Apple and Microsoft will somehow erase Linux from existence?

And if you don't believe me, I suggest taking a close look at processors from both ARM and Intel that are coming in the next few years. They're -very- geared to delivering performance in mobile, low power situations.

That's great. What's so bad about making energy-efficient processors? Sure as hell beats some of the machines from back in the day, which sucked down the kilowatts, yet weren't much more powerful than a pocket calculator.

By all means, feel free to believe that we are facing some kind of technological doomsday scenario on the horizon. The rest of us will just get on with using our tools effectively and enjoying the marvels of technology and human innovation.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[Zelos]

I have here as evidence, a SOny Ericson P1i, which is a wonderful phone... Wow, somebody actually liked the P1i? That thing was horrible: slow, buggy, appalling UI design. Even my awful Windows Mobile Samsung i600 felt like an upgrade after that. UIQ died off for a lot of reasons, I don't think Signed by Symbian was one of them.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[BitZtream]

You left out the part where the carriers tell you to go fuck yourself when you want to sell a stock android phone that they can't lock down.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[Toy G]

Q2 2011? Seriously? By that time Apple will have released yet another OS update, and the market will be flooded by Android devices.
All my friends, even the hardcore long-time Nokia fanatics, this year have moved on -- tired of waiting for a decent OS after the terrible N97 experience.

Nokia should have released a super-device *this year* and instead they wasted months on the move to MeeGo. As someone who wanted to profit from the platform, I feel badly let down. The N900 with a polished OS would have rocked, instead we got another year of "just wait, it'll be worth it!". Yeah, we wait, and meanwhile Apple and (especially) Google are eating our lunch.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[tepples]

Change the name of Meego to ANYTHING ELSE

They tried that, but the last two names they chose had trademark problems. Mobilix is too close to Obelix, a character in Asterix comics. Moblin is exactly the name of the Zelda universe's counterpart to Duke Nukem's Pig Cops.

Re:If Nokia really wants to remain relevant

[DurendalMac]

And how is that relevant to the point here? The above stated that the profit was in unlocked, easily rooted phones. I was pointing out that doing so is just going to catch a niche market and there isn't a great deal of money in it.

Market saturation and evolution

[dokebi]

If history means anything, the market can only support so many different operating systems (3?). Even with a huge market like handsets and mobile devices, 5 maybe too many. Currently we have 6+ (in no particular order)

Symbian (Nokia)
Blackberry (RIM)
Android (Google)
iOS (Apple)
palmOS (HP)
WinMobile (Microsoft)

Only two of these are available from multiple hardware vendors, and it's hard to imagine new entrants MeeGo (Intel) and Bada (Samsung) gaining any sort of traction. Unlike desktops, hardware/software integration seems to be key in this market, which may mean iOS may have an upper hand. Or perhaps its ease of development, which favors Android or WinMobile. So those will be my pick for top 3. Sorry Nokia, it was good while it lasted. Thanks for the cute ringtone!

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[mark72005]

Blackberry, Android, and iOS are going to be the only players in the future. Nokia needs to get on one of those trains.

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[rlp]

it's hard to imagine new entrants MeeGo (Intel) and Bada (Samsung) gaining any sort of traction

Yeah, but imagine the Samsung OS coupled with the Microsoft search engine. Who wouldn't want a phone named BadaBing!

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[Darkness404]

What I think will eventually happen is that we will have compatibility layers for the more open of the platforms. For example, a high-end RIM device might have an Android compatibility layer that lets it run Android apps, Android might have a WebOS compatibility layer that lets you run apps designed for that, etc.

Realistically, within the next 3 years, almost every (smart) phone will have a 1 Ghz or better CPU based on current trends.

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[Microlith]

No one but Apple can have iOS. No one but RIM can have Blackberry. And frankly, Android is so Google dependent that it is considered a forward-looking risk (they note so on their statements!) that if vendors could get it away from Google, they would.

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[durrr]

Considering blackberry, android and iOS are all recent and new entries i see no reason why nokia couldn't reform the symbian platform to a new look, while retaining backward compatibility.
Nokias largest problem is that they have a billion different phone models, none which have particularly fancy hardware specs and functionality.

You also have to see past the US, there's a world of phone users out there, and whereas you have a half mile queue to the macstore when they release their new iphone in the US you'll see the same in various parts of asia to nokia stores. Except for japan, they have their own strange breed of phones.

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[dangitman]

Considering blackberry, android and iOS are all recent and new entries i see no reason why nokia couldn't reform the symbian platform to a new look, while retaining backward compatibility.

Of course they could give it a new look. I don't see how that would help, though. A pig with lipstick on it is still a pig.

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[Darkness404]

I don't see any one of them dying other than Symbian. MS has a crapload of money to pump into Windows Mobile and despite every release being incredibly crappy, it still manages to be put on some phones.

WebOS I think has a future if HP actively licenses it out to other manufacturers. The problem with WebOS is that the Pre and Pixi really weren't that great of phones, the OS is nice, the hardware is mediocre.

BlackBerry I think has the greatest to lose other than Symbian, a BlackBerry is great for corporate work environments, but ends up lacking appeal other than that. Almost everyone who has a BlackBerry that doesn't need some sort of strange corporate feature can get an Android phone and have the same functionality in all the meaningful ways while still being cheap. BlackBerries have managed to gain appeal because compared with other smartphones, an older BlackBerry might only be $20 on contract compared to something like the iPhone which is $200ish.

iOS isn't going anywhere, even when Apple manages to be 100% incompetent in their handling of some basic feature, Apple has enough fanboys to keep them alive just look at the late 90s.

Android of course isn't going to fade anytime soon. Lots of apps, frequent releases, powerful phones, etc. make Android a main choice.

But Symbian, does anyone outside of tech circles even know what Symbian is? People know the iPhone, people have seen the commercial for the Droid, they know the BlackBerry, they recognize the Palm name but Symbian? Does the average person even know where to get a Symbian phone? Is there even a "flagship" phone? People can recognize the iPhone, a Droid, a BlackBerry some can even recognize a Pre, but what is the "must have" Symbian phone? No one knows that.

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[16K Ram Pack]

WinMobile will be toast. When you can run Linux/BSD on a phone, you don't need Windows. The main reasons it survives on the desktop is familiarity, Office and the huge library of software for it. And those just ain't factors with a phone.

I think we'll be down to 4 in very little time: Symbian, Blackberry, Android and iOS. Blackberry is like the old mainframes of smartphones. It's still more useful in some ways, but I suspect that iOS or Android will consume it over the next 5 to 10 years.

Nokia's problem is that they don't have the developer traction now. Android's developer site is just so much better, and that piggy-backs on people using Google's other APIs and finding them very easy to work with.

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[durrr]

A pig with cybernetic organs, wings and lipstick is definitely not the same old pig, it may still be a pig, but not the same old pig.
Just like a pig you haven't seen before with multitouch support and accelerometers is also a pig.

My point being, if you can reform your pigs sufficiently they'll save your business.

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[Luckyo]

But Symbian, does anyone outside of tech circles even know what Symbian is? People know the iPhone, people have seen the commercial for the Droid, they know the BlackBerry, they recognize the Palm name but Symbian? Does the average person even know where to get a Symbian phone? Is there even a "flagship" phone? People can recognize the iPhone, a Droid, a BlackBerry some can even recognize a Pre, but what is the "must have" Symbian phone? No one knows that.

Outside US? We just call it "Nokia". It's that text on the phone that every other person in line has.
This is something that US-centric sites like slashdot and their users really don't seem to get. Nokia has near-zero market penetration in the States because it didn't bow to pressure from operators, who in US are gods of the market. They made their phones for the end users instead, often screwing the operator in the process by refusing to allow a permanent lock-in. US operators refused to stock such phones, and sales were crap from get go.
But result from having such phones in countries that have people actually buy their own phones in stores rather then operators? They have almost 50% of entire market outside US. People KNOW them. People were willing to buy essentially crappy, unfinished platform like n97 in droves, because it had "nokia" written on it. They're still buying them in fact. And that was a really shitty first attempt at making symbian touchscreen compatible. Nokia is a household name, something that everyone knows instantly, in line with brand names.

One other thing. Nokia's speciality has never been revolutionising. It has been evolving and out-competing on a price point. Apple, which never got any real traction outside US with their iphone is actually losing market outside US already, mostly to android. And that is because nokia is once again evolving the existing concept of touchphone into something they can make well, and then press the price low enough to kill the competition using their (on corporate level) legendary logistics. It's how they utterly butchered competition several times over during their existence in both cheap and expensive phones.

It's something they're fairly likely to pull off yet again.

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[rrossman2]

Well, Verizon is trying to get away... The Samsung Fascinate comes with Bing as the default search (both on the home page and as the default voice search) with no way to remove or change it unless you root the phone

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[rrossman2]

Just wanted to throw is out there.. most of the Symbian OS's (at least S60, S80, and that U whatever OS version) will run regular MIDP java apps. So that means they run the OS tailored versions (IE> ones made for say S60 third release like my N95 runs), or generic MIDP apps that could also include ones that would run on the BB Java engine.. such as MIDPssh. It's actually quite nice it has that stack in the OS. Now if they just made it easy to make a java app that would run on Android, Symbian, and BB OS....

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[mark72005]

Getting away from Google to Microsoft doesn't help us. Especially if it's locked down so you can't change it.

AT&T did the same thing with some of their Android offerings. They locked the search down to Yahoo, and you couldn't change it even if you wanted to.

Re:Market saturation and evolution

[mark72005]

iOS is 3 years old, Blackberry has been around even longer than that. Not at all "new and recent", especially in a space like smartphones where the tech moves fast

Too Late

[whisper_jeff]

At this stage of the game, damn near everything about Nokia is "too late". This is a company on the brink of falling hard because of their failure to recognize a significant shift in the market and adapt in a timely manner (which can be said of RIM as well, imho).

Re:Too Late

[Luckyo]

Nokia has "been late" for new fad for almost every single time in its history. Be it clamshells, losing external antennas or designing the look of their phones, they have been late for all of them.

And then they sat on their being late, and came up with a product that was at least as good if not better then competition, while costing less. Much less. And they ended up destroying the competition.

This isn't some theory. This is something that happened in the past. Several times over. US folks just missed it because operators don't like selling phones that are tailored for users, rather then operators.

Re:Too Late

[Kensai7]

http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/F/07/GLB_SMPHN0710.gif

Who's falling again?! Ah yes, Apple...

Urine-based analogy?

[daemonc]

So if using Android is "like peeing in your pants to stay warm", what would be the appropriate urine-based analogy for this attempt to compete with Android?

Paying a million bums $10 each to pee on you, instead of in their own pants?

Here's an idea.

[dangitman]

If you need better software, then why not actually hire great developers to work for you? You know, like think about the quality of your product and dedicate resources to it over the medium-long term, rather than staging flashy gimmicks? I guess that just makes too much sense.

Re:Here's an idea.

[buchanmilne]

If you need better software, then why not actually hire great developers to work for you?

They hired a whole company, Qt, to write their own software.

This is about gaining more 3rd-party developers, or are you saying Apple has hired the developers of all the apps available for the iPhone?

Re:I don't get it.

[durrr]

Symbian S^3 supposedly is going to change things a fair bit.
More importantly should be them enabling QT on both symbian and meego devices. The OS is of lesser importance if you can cross-compile things from left to right and up to down.
Also, abandoning symbian for meego may simply not be viable for all hardware, remember that nokia have an enormous global market of low-spec phones .

Yum, the smell of fresh toast..

[Anonymous Meoward]

Retrofitting Symbian to compete with Android or iOS is folly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the latter two are fundamentally Unix-based (iOS being a stripped down MacOS X, and Android running on a Linux kernel -- man it was weird to see a penguin and boot screen on a candy bar-sized object..). So they probably leave Symbian in the dust for robustness and reliability, by virtue of the size of each of the development communities alone. Then there's the issue of availability of development environments.

This is a last-ditch effort at best. If Nokia doesn't switch platforms soon, they are screwed.

Re:Yum, the smell of fresh toast..

[thaig]

Symbian's got an incredibly robust and excellent kernel. Complain about the UI if you want but it has a lot to teach Linux about robustness, power management and being light on resources.

This just shows how clueless this entire "OS" pissing contest is. The issues that people have are all about about user interfaces and whether or not you have a 1Ghz processor FFS.

Re:Yum, the smell of fresh toast..

[RAMMS EIN]

I don't know. I've always found Symbian quite impressive. I also prefer having a choice in the languages I can use for development, which neither iPhone OS nor Android seem to want to give me. Maemo has been a breath of fresh air: no hoops to jump through, and I can use the *nix development knowledge I already have. But between Maemo and Symbian, I'm not sure which is actually the better system for phones. While modern phones aren't really limited in computing resources by my reckoning, there is still something to be said for a real-time, microkernel OS engineered for devices with limited resources.

Re:Yum, the smell of fresh toast..

[Eunuchswear]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the latter two [Android, iOS] are fundamentally Unix-based [...] So they probably leave Symbian in the dust for robustness and reliability,

Wow. Just wow.

I'm struggling to come up with a witty response.

Symbian

[codepunk]

Ditch Symbian, grab a copy of android os, rip the silly jvm out of it and put on a good native high performance interface and count me in.

Re:Symbian

[RAMMS EIN]

You mean like Maemo?

I just got a Nokia N900, which has Maemo, and I'm very happy with it. Finally, a phone I can code for using my extensive experience with Unix programming.

Re:Symbian

[jfanning]

Uh, that would be Meego then?!

Re:Symbian

[buchanmilne]

Android, without the the "silly jvm", wouldn't that be Linux? Like Meego?

Nokia, why don't you learn it?

[justleavealonemmmkay]

I'll write it in finnish, maybe you'll understand

Youkkou makken greatikken harrdwwiikken, bukkut youkkour sooffwakkken ikkis krakkap. Frokkom a ukkuseeer poikkoint okkof viiikkew, Sykkimbian is okkkkay, but dekkevelokkkpers hakketen it. Ikkit is a hekkel to wrikkete for. Mokkove to Akkandroid alreakkidy

Re:Nokia, why don't you learn it?

[Urkki]

I'll write it in finnish, maybe you'll understand

Youkkou makken greatikken harrdwwiikken, bukkut youkkour sooffwakkken ikkis krakkap. Frokkom a ukkuseeer poikkoint okkof viiikkew, Sykkimbian is okkkkay, but dekkevelokkkpers hakketen it. Ikkit is a hekkel to wrikkete for. Mokkove to Akkandroid alreakkidy

FYI: Future of Symbian is Qt. After that, developer mostly doesn't even need to care what the platform is, especially if only targetting touch phones. It's not hell, it's heaven, already now. What I mean is, today you can download and install the Nokia Qt SDK, take an existing Qt application, compile and test it first in the Simulator (phone form factor selectable from menu), then (Windows only for Symbian, I think) hook up your two year old 5800XM to your PC with USB, install Qt packages from Windows Programs menu shortcuts, and compile and deploy the app to run on your phone. It'll stay installed too, so you can easily demo your creation to others even after unhooking the USB.

It's almost like Android already!

Warning: the SDK can be considered "beta quality" still in my experience, at least as far as installation is concerned, so it might, but also it might not "just work". If stupid installation problem crap puts you off, perhaps wait for next release of the SDK...

Of course having Qt doesn't do anything about the Ovi store, but perhaps the new CEO can do the necessary yelling, kicking and whipping to get the stupidities fixed.

Re:Nokia, why don't you learn it?

[Spugglefink]

take an existing Qt application, compile and test it first

An existing Qt application to do what, exactly? Just because most of the core code compiles doesn't mean it's a cakewalk. Any app of any consequence that has its origins in the desktop world does not just drop in to compile for mobile. There are serious problems with missing build dependencies (ie. anything outside Qt itself is a crapshoot), and even more serious problems with having to perform extremely major surgery on the GUI to make it work with the totally non-standard dialog and menu implementation found on Maemo (and presumably everywhere else, and presumably to vary by device too).

You don't have to start completely from scratch, but it represents an enormous amount of work. I have every expectation that the Symbian-specific diddling that would have to be done vs. the Maemo/MeeGo diddling really means you have to have two compile targets in your code too, with two very distinct ways of managing this that and the other. I haven't developed for Qt on Symbian, so that is speculative, but I've done enough Qt on Maemo to have a very strong sense that even the move to MeeGo is going to require a lot of revamping, and I expect every new device out there is going to require device-specific diddling in many ways.

Qt is great, but I don't think Qt is a panacea. Especially not since you can't deploy Qt on Android or iOS phones, which is severely crippling.

All in all, I think Qt is the fantastic idea that's going to fail, along with Nokia. They seem completely doomed to me, and should probably just start making Android devices.

Re:Nokia, why don't you learn it?

[Urkki]

take an existing Qt application, compile and test it first

An existing Qt application to do what, exactly?

To test that it runs. I wasn't trying to imply that many desktop applications would make sense to run on phone screen, especially a phone without keyboard.

Just because most of the core code compiles doesn't mean it's a cakewalk. Any app of any consequence that has its origins in the desktop world does not just drop in to compile for mobile. There are serious problems with missing build dependencies (ie. anything outside Qt itself is a crapshoot), and even more serious problems with having to perform extremely major surgery on the GUI to make it work with the totally non-standard dialog and menu implementation found on Maemo (and presumably everywhere else, and presumably to vary by device too).

Yes, if you want the native look and feel. If you don't, then there's nothing stopping you from making even a traditional QMainWindow application, that runs on desktop and on Symbian and on Maemo/Meego, as long as you account for the different input methods and make sure your application's minimum screen size is small enough for the smallest target display. For the large class of applications that only need point-and-click interaction (eg. all kinds of information browsing), it's trivial to have single source for all targets.

You don't have to start completely from scratch, but it represents an enormous amount of work. I have every expectation that the Symbian-specific diddling that would have to be done vs. the Maemo/MeeGo diddling really means you have to have two compile targets in your code too, with two very distinct ways of managing this that and the other. I haven't developed for Qt on Symbian, so that is speculative, but I've done enough Qt on Maemo to have a very strong sense that even the move to MeeGo is going to require a lot of revamping, and I expect every new device out there is going to require device-specific diddling in many ways.

In many ways, such as? I have a feeling there'll be even less diddling needed than producing cross-platform application for Windows+Linux+Mac with Qt. And in that environment, most diddling I have seen has been because the developer didn't know (or care) about the Qt API to do whatever he did in a platform specific way...

Qt is great, but I don't think Qt is a panacea. Especially not since you can't deploy Qt on Android or iOS phones, which is severely crippling.

iOS, being a closed platfrom, is understandable.

But Android is supposedly an open platform. What stops people from compiling Qt libraries for it? Once there is a wealth of Qt-based mobile apps, how long will it take for there to be Android images with Qt support?

All in all, I think Qt is the fantastic idea that's going to fail, along with Nokia. They seem completely doomed to me, and should probably just start making Android devices.

Could be, but I doubt it. Are you viewing it from a very US-centric point of view, perhaps?

Short answer: Probably

[MonsterTrimble]

I think they could do it, but I suspect that Symbian will become an also-ran with iOS, Android and Blackberry's new QNX-powered OS. It WAS good, but they don't have the marketshare nor, and more importantly, the mindshare, to fight it. What I don't understand is why they aren't looking at throwing themselves behind Android. Nokia owns QT, which is the base of KDE. Of anyone, you would think they would support a platform which would use their own stuff quite easily.

Re:Short answer: Probably

[Eunuchswear]

I think they could do it, but I suspect that Symbian will become an also-ran with iOS, Android and Blackberry's new QNX-powered OS. It WAS good, but they don't have the marketshare

Delusional.

Go on, how much marketshare does Symbian have?

Re:Maemo/Meego vs. Symbian

[Kensai7]

Nokia has an excellent OS in Maemo/Meego, but still they keep beating this dead horse. Unbelievable. 'Nuff said.

And some dudes still fail to understand the ace on the sleeve of Nokia... the Qt SDK!

Who cares what you will be running in 2011 once developers will be able to develop cross-platform apps that run both on MeeGo and Symbian. Customers won't even see the difference and they will probably keep adoring their trusty Symbian smartphones with the huge battery life.

Re:Rebranding Is Overdue

[Kensai7]

Nokia really needs to rebrand their mobile OS line. Every time I hear "Symbian" I think of some odd mechanical sex device.

Heh, really? When I hear "Android" I think of a sex device too... in the shape of a puffy doll! :)

Re:Maemo/Meego vs. Symbian

[jfanning]

Since 99% of the commentators on the internet are complete bozos it doesn't make any difference how many times you mention QT they all see Symbian == bad. But of course they only read that once three years ago and are completely incapable of making any change in opinion. So I guess then it is left to the rest of us to make a bundle writing apps for the 40% plus (and growing) share of the smartphone market.

Never too late...

[mevets]

Here is a $10M idea - make an iPhone simulator that runs on the Nokia. Future proof.

Me too, but not for the same reasons

[tlambert]

Me too, but not for the same reasons

The problem is that they are coming very late to the "applications game", and they are trying to fit those applications on legacy devices with vastly differing capabilities from one another.

The reason Apple has been so successful here is that all of its devices have similar capabilities and screen resolution, so there is a common baseline for all of the applications to assume, and so from that you get applications capable of using the device capabilities better, rather than scaling back and having the "minimum" UI.

Even the one where the screen resolution is a bit off in "twice as big" mode, the iPad, is "close enough" that the applications for the other devices don't have a problem running with it. Going the other direction, Apple is going to start having a few problems, as people write specifically to the iPad capabilities. The aspect ratio isn't similar enough for "twice as small" to fit those applications on an iPhone/iPod screen. I expect that what will happen is that Apple will normalize the aspect ratio between the devices by changing the next iPhone/iPod to have the same aspect ratio to make the conversions "work".

Android faces similar issues to the legacy systems, which is lack of a standard minimum spanning set -- android doesn't dictate screen resolution, touch (or keyboard) capability, and so on. So Android isn't going to do any better in the applications market than Nokia, unless they address these issues so that the applications experience is actually good for the customer between devices.

Without requiring this sort of standardization of the application operating environment, the customer is stuck trying to figure out how to pick applications that will run on their devices and/or the developer is stuck porting (and testing) on a zillion devices to certify their application compatible, or (more likely), both happen. If so, you only get applications markets that are device-specific, and the developers (those which are willing to be developers in such an environment) will tend to target only the most popular devices to maximize their market size while minimizing their development outlay.

And this is exactly the same problem that a proliferation of APIs and kernel versions and so on have caused for the BSDs and Linux distributions which have largely kept the commercial software players away from trying to sell into those markets (hence things like "no iTunes for Linux", and Adobe specifically targetting one browser and one Linux distribution with their plugins).

-- Terry

Re:Me too, but not for the same reasons

[|DeN|niS]

"""The problem is that they are coming very late to the "applications game", and they are trying to fit those applications on legacy devices with vastly differing capabilities from one another. The reason Apple has been so successful here is that all of its devices have similar capabilities and screen resolution, so there is a common baseline for all of the applications to assume, and so from that you get applications capable of using the device capabilities better, rather than scaling back and having the "minimum" UI."""

That is exactly right.

It took forever, but by now it seems they have finally realized this, and all S^3 devices use the same resolution and base software, same CPU and, very capable (similar to iphone 4), GPU. Instead of updating firmware for dozens of S60 phones with FP3/5 etc, S^3 is basically a single platform. What runs smoothly on the N8 will run exactly the same on the C6-01. (There are of course hardware differences, camera, hdmi, etc, and E7 gets some business perks, vpn support, etc). Any current apps being made using Qt are immediately S^4 and Meego proof. The weakest component is currently the browser, but there is a Qt version in development and unofficial comments say it's excellent. (why wouldn't it, same webkit as chrome/safari)

S^3's nHD resolution is the result of maintaining backward compatibility with S^1. The E7 having nHD (4" screen) is again because of compatibility. And to be honest, the screens look awesome. (normal people hardly know what resolution even means).

Incidentally, the retina display also only exists because of backward compatibility, i.e. being able to scale up apps exactly twice in both width and height. The ppi is actually ridiculous, and had there been a way to get a lower-but-still-high-res amoled Steve would have been proclaiming the beautiful blacks and popping colours and iphone fans would be preaching about that instead of resolution.

For S^4 and Meego the resolution will most likely go up, but hopefully the UI's will be fully scalable (with Qt they should be) and there will not be too many variants, i.e. similar to how the S^3 portfolio works.

Your point is a very good one, and I believe they do get it by now.

Re:Me too, but not for the same reasons

[Spykk]

Exactly. Thats why PCs never took off.

Re:Me too, but not for the same reasons

[davester666]

So, you're saying developers should target phones with an install base of ZERO (namely, phones with Symbian 3)???

And how many of these phones will be updated to Symbian 4 when it is released? I'll bet the number will be rather close to ZERO as well.

And then splitting development between Meego and Symbian? And possibly also jumping on Android and/or Windows 7?

It really sounds like they are just throwing crap at the wall, and hoping something will eventually stick.

Ok I've had it with the UI bashing

[Rexdude]

So the Symbian UI is 'dated' and 'old'. Well, guess what,pick up a Palm PDA from 1995, any Symbian handset and the American darlings, iOS/Android - and look at the way the UI is presented. What pray is so sexy or innovative about a gazillion icons presented in a scrolling view, as on the iPhone? Android does the same. So did Palm and so does Symbian/Nokia. Or is it the pretty transitions when you tilt the screen? Or the beveled edge buttons? GUIs have been about rows of icons to click on for ages. On a non touch mobile device, you use buttons to scroll/select while on a touchscreen you tap and slide your finger to scroll the display.
How many different ways is one to implement menus, checkboxes and radio buttons? Those are not going away any time soon. In 2006, Nokia introduced an optional new home screen that showed shortcuts to apps and alerts for new email/calendar appointments/nearby wifi networks. This is now far more customizable as in the upcoming Symbian^3, where you can have upto 3 homescreens with customizable widgets. Android also has something similar, but iOS as far as I've seen has no such native capability. That's not innovative?
Symbian has been designed from the ground up as an OS optimized for low CPU/memory usage, so it scales well from low to high end devices. It also has true preemptive multitasking since its 2002 debut- for example if there's too many apps open and there's an incoming call, the call takes priority over everything else and the OS will close a couple of background apps to free memory. Compare that with the hottest new Samsung Galaxy S which sometimes fails at receiving a basic phone call.. You can't control when the phone syncs data, or using what type of connection- you need an APNDroid hack to stop it syncing permanently in the background!! People rave about Snapdragon and gigahertz class CPUs for the newer Android devices, but the OS doesn't scale to lower specs at all. It practically requires a high powered CPU to power all that eyecandy.
Let's not even get started on the iPhone 4 antenna fiasco. Symbian has matured over 8 years and got the basics right - power management, multitasking, making calls,managing data connections over GPRS/3G/wifi/Bluetooth etc. It has also supported themes since its inception -there's hundreds of custom themes with different icons and colors available since then on various sites, so it's not like you're stuck with the look and feel that it ships with out of the box either. But well, superficial looks are all that matter in the end, apparently.

Re:Ok I've had it with the UI bashing

[Brian Quinlan]

Compare that with the hottest new Samsung Galaxy S which sometimes fails at receiving a basic phone call..

Did you read your own link? Every poster who followed-up said that the problem was resolved when they realized that they had to slide (rather than simply touch) the answer button in order to answer calls.

What Android is missing

[jonfr]

Android is missing good battery live. But it has the looks but it is not good for embedded devices like mobile phones at current stage.

disclaimer: The Android phone I own is running Android 1.5 with no options of update. I am currently not using it.

Symbian has good battery live, a rather clumsy user interface. But it is decent. It is stable (but it might be better).

Both of those have there good side and the bad. But I would still go with a Symbian phone if I can choose.

Case in point: TV output on PCs

[tepples]

Is it not possible to have locked-down devices for the people who don't know what they are doing, and more powerful, open machines for those who do?

It was not possible in the video game market from roughly 1985, to 2006. After the NES took over from 8-bit home computers, video games were sharply divided between "console" platforms and "PC" platforms. PCs were open but couldn't output to an SDTV without an obscure adapter; consoles could output to a TV as a standard feature but weren't open. This began to change in 2006, with HDTVs gaining the ability to take VGA and DVI signals from PCs, though major PC game publishers appear not to have noticed the home theater PC market.

Trusted Network Connect

[tepples]

or is there some nefarious scheme in your worldview where Apple and Microsoft will somehow erase Linux from existence?

Imagine that the cable company and the phone company decide to protect their private networks by requiring home users to run approved antivirus software. But in order to make sure that the approved antivirus software is running, the customer will have to use a dialer that uses the Trusted Platform Module to make sure that an approved and unmodified operating system kernel is running. No approved kernel, no IP address. And good luck getting the phone company or the cable company to allow your preferred desktop Linux distribution onto its network. To learn the implications of Trusted Network Connect, check Alsee's posting history.

Re:Trusted Network Connect

[dangitman]

Imagine that the cable company and the phone company decide to protect their private networks by requiring home users to run approved antivirus software. But in order to make sure that the approved antivirus software is running, the customer will have to use a dialer that uses the Trusted Platform Module to make sure that an approved and unmodified operating system kernel is running. No approved kernel, no IP address.

OK, I'm imagining it. If that ever happened, those companies would be out of business within a few weeks if they didn't ditch that policy.

I also don't see how it's similar to anything Apple or Microsoft are doing.

Re:Trusted Network Connect

[tepples]

If that ever happened, those companies would be out of business within a few weeks if they didn't ditch that policy.

But what would their customers switch to? Dial-up?

OK to shut out amateur developers

[tepples]

I believe the OSS moniker is for the developers, professional and amateur.

But does it matter to 90+ percent of home users whether amateur developers are allowed onto the platform? The video game console market says no.

Re:OK to shut out amateur developers

[Kensai7]

Your comparison is off mark by a lot. The video game console market is a NICHE market where high-quality entertainment apps are a must.

The amateur developers of the 21st century are literally thousands and rising. They don't need to rotate the latest 3D graphics, they may use development tools for school or fun.

And customization-modding is a huge "after-market" if you allow me.

There is no one market for all devices

[tepples]

android as a plataform allows the user (or the phone manufacturer) to install an alternative app store in place of android market, or even side-by-side with it.

But if it says "Android" on the box, an end user is going to expect to be able to download the same apps that his co-worker's Galaxy S family phone can access through Android Market. Right now, the end user can't officially install Android Market on an Android device other than a phone, and users on AT&T can't install an alternative market such as AppsLib due to the removal of "Unknown sources".

People per language

[tepples]

You also have to see past the US

It's expensive enough for a small shop developing applications for mobile devices to hire marketing and legal personnel for the United States and writers for English, let alone the countries and languages of Europe. The U.S. has more people per jurisdiction and more people per language.

Re:Wrong title and summary

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Right concept though.

How about this?

"Nokia throwing $10,000,000 at the problem?

RTOS

[krischik]

Symbian as a real time operating system is far better suited for a mobile phone then Linux.

I guess there is a lot of confusion so lets clarify a little:

1) Kernel: Symbian Linux Mach
2) GUI: S60 Android Quartz
3) Company: NOKIA Google Apple
4) Marketing Name: Symbian Android iOS

As far as I see it in the first layer Symbian is the best options. However in the 2nd layer S60 is the worse option. In layer 3 NOKIA does ok in Europe but is almost unheard of in the USA. And in layer 4 Symbian does not do well either.

Interestingly most Apple users don't even know the name of the technology used. It is just iOS for them. Maybe NOKIA should invent a new cool marketing name.

Re:RTOS

[|DeN|niS]

"2) GUI: S60 Android Quartz"

No, it's no longer that laggy and annoying S60, with single/double tap confusion etc. That is kind of the point of this competition.

S^3 is a fully GPU accelerated UI, it's quite good, and very promising considering it's still only PR1.0. Try one out when you get a chance, you'd be surprised. You may prefer grid-of-icons, which btw you can replicate by using shortcut widgets, but it stomps all over say the N97/5800. And yet, those sold really well (iOS is definitely smoother, though much less capable, but Android has nothing on S^3, my opinion of course, based on actually *using both*). Nokia will sell the 50M S^3 devices they forecasted.

I'm giggling as I play with my android.

[mrmeval]

It's so vivid and lifelike.

stop gap GUI

[krischik]

Checked on Wikipedia and there only “UI improvements” are mentioned. There was not even a name or version mentioned for the new GUI you spoke of.

This explains why NOKIA has to pay developers. Why else should I develop for a nameless GUI with a use by date of Spring 2011 when the true new Qt GUI will be released for Symbian^4.

Symbian^3 is just a stop gap product, obsolete even before the first device was produced for it.

Re:stop gap GUI

[|DeN|niS]

So you're not interested in trying out for the prize money. You probably make so much money already writing for iOS/Android, right. We get it. So why are you wasting your time here? Are you so worried that perhaps they might be onto something? Or do you troll sony-ericsson threads as well?

NOKIA does it themselves

[krischik]

NOKIA knows all about peeing in your pants to stay warm because that is precisely what they do right now: They pee there pants with Symbian^3 to keep all warm until Symbian^4 and MeeGo is ready for shipment. Only those two have the real improvements. And developers know that. That is why NOKIA needs to “pay” developers to develop for an obsolete before shipment stop gap technology.

The difference is: They have dry pants to change into next year. And next year this time we will know if they had their dry pants ready before their pee has frozen solid.

Re:Symbian is a dead end

[buchanmilne]

Nokia has Meego, which would be the logical step forward and an immensely better development platform than Symbian,

Meego isn't a development platform, Qt is, and it happens to ship on Symbian^3, Maemo, and Meego.

but the project is basically being kept in the dark with minimal funding,

I doubt that, but I think Nokia needs a bit more time to polish Meego, and needs to provide a path from Series60 to Meego (for existing developers, and to show commitment to developers).

while the main company pushes for buggy Symbian phones

Have you used any Symbian^3 phones?

with limited or no after-sales support.

This seems to be a US-specific phenomenon.

The Ovi store is a goddamn mess,

So, what app store should Nokia use for Meego? Does it not make sense to improve the Ovi store with existing phone lines, especially on top of Qt, to have it ready for Meego?

the phones are buggy and eclipsed hardware-wise by the offerings of HTC, Samsung and Apple.

Which phones are you referring to?

sales figures and prize money

[krischik]

Actually I have two applications out there. Both are available for Android and Symbian. In one day I sell about as many Android applications then I sell for Symbian in a month.

Which too explain why NOKIA need to bait developers with some price money.

Do I troll sony-ericsson threads? Yes! Why? Because I once owned a P900i and P990in phone. Symbian OS and Sony-Ericsson made. The former absolutely great the later a complete disaster.

No one will hate you more then a disgruntled former fanboy.

And just to clarify: I still like Symbian - I don't like what NOKIA and Sony-Ericsson have made from it. And speaking of it: I don't like the Android phones Sony-Ericsson came up with either. I have a Nexus-One these days.

Re:sales figures and prize money

[|DeN|niS]

"""And just to clarify: I still like Symbian - I don't like what NOKIA and Sony-Ericsson have made from it. And speaking of it: I don't like the Android phones Sony-Ericsson came up with either. I have a Nexus-One these days."""

Which? S60? UIQ? Or S^3?

But I am not sure what your point is. You're a disgruntled former fanboy? So are you trying to convince people to stay away from this competition? Just acting out some anger? Dismiss the N8 out of hand? Microsoft is responsible for Windows ME, does that mean Windows 7 doesn't get a chance? Do you tell people to not use that?

It's great that your apps are doing well. How does it hurt you if Nokia actually does manage to sell 50M S^3 devices in the next 1-2 years, which can all run your app, and are available in nearly 200 countries via operator billing / CC. Over here, Google doesn't even offer paid apps in its marketplace.

Re:sales figures and prize money

[krischik]

Lets try to answer you question.

Yes, I liked Symbian/UIQ a lot.
No, if you think you can win go for it.
Partly.
Yes, it is only Symbian^3.
NOKIA next chance is Symbian^4.
I tell people not to use Symbian until Symbian^4.
S^3 won't be on sale for 2 years. It will be replaces by S^4 in six month.
You can get my Android Apps via 3rd party shops as well. They sell badly there as well.

I think it was a big mistake that Google did not offer Marketplace world wide and it served to teach users in non marketplace countries how to pirate software. As opposed to just using a different shop. This will be a long term problem for Android software developers.

Re:sales figures and prize money

[|DeN|niS]

Time will tell how things turn out. I've used S^3 and like it a lot. But that's of course just my personal opinion.

Thank you for your answers, and good luck with your apps (no snark)

(just out of curiousity, what is the market share ratio of symbian:android in the markets where your app sells/applies, compared to the 1:30 sales ratio? For example I'd expect a NYC subway app to sell much more on Android given the much larger market share in the US)

Re:sales figures and prize money

[krischik]

I sell international (including alternative Android markets). I think the difference is:

a) Convenience of the Android Market App.

The sales on alternative Android markets are even worse then the Symbian sales.

b) The amount of phones actually used as smart phones.

Many Symbian smart phones are bought as feature phones and the users never ever buy any apps for them.

But this is all guess work.