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West Virginia Is Geothermically Active
sciencehabit writes "Researchers have uncovered the largest geothermal hot spot in the eastern United States. According to a unique collaboration between Google and academic geologists, West Virginia sits atop several hot patches of Earth, some as warm as 200C and as shallow as 5 kilometers. If engineers are able to tap the heat, the state could become a producer of green energy for the region."
While I'm very happy to hear about anything that will get us off our addition to oil, unfortunately I'm concerned about any earthquakes that might be triggered (as was what caused a major venture in California to be shuttered).
This is unfortunate especially because of the enormous amount of energy that could be tapped (60K times yearly consumption).
what the CIA Cantina wants to make us think after "brussel sprouts night"...
Maybe its just coal burning underground.
Set your phasers on "funky"!
Makes me think researchers are idiots; folks who live there have known about the hot springs for hundreds of years.
Places with names like 'White Sulphur Springs' suggest anything? And there's a cave I've been in nearby (admittedly over the line in Virginia) with water temperatures over 100F.
And radioactivity.
In Australia the hot spots are hotter and shallower, yet zero serious business interest - as the powerlines to somewhere useful is a fair way away.
The there is the fact were hot spots were tapped, this has been blamed for causing earthquakes.
Will they be scraping even more mountains off the planet to get to it? Will they fill the remaining creek beds up with the effluvia from getting to it? Will they keep even more public roads under a permanent state of "repair" and detour to disguise the fact that they're simply ruining more tax funded roadway with heavy machinery? Will they drive residents out of even more entire towns due to blasting damages and constant noise from heavy machinery? Are they going to do anything with the energy rather than find cheaper ways to dig coal? WV has two industries, coal and railroad. If they replaced coal money with energy money the railroads would die. They won't let that happen. They've been fighting off a 3/4 MV high tension line for years, you think they're going to allow an energy exporting industry to pop up, string wire for multi MV lines and sell electricity to its neighbors now that they're got them hooked on WV coal? I lived there are loved it. But I realized the state is owned by stockholders for whom green is considered a place to dig. Even of they took advantage of a chance to do something good, they wouldn't do it right -- they'd do it cheaply to maximize profits and the population would suffer the effects. WV *was* green. It's owners don't give a shit about green.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
It's green energy and you have to drill to get it.
Oil Well drillers want to put a hole in the ground and get money out of it. Simple as that. Most oil wells last about 20 years (if lucky). A binary geo-thermal well will last 50+ years assuming that you do not pump it too fast.
Dems run around throwing money at Wind (meh) and Solar PV (a waste of money). Yet, the simple answer here is to not just support geothermal, but do it in a smart way. Most dry wells are ran down to about 10'K feet. Yet most heat is in the 10-20'K feet arena. So who not offer up a tax break for dry wellers to drill down to that region to locate heat. This would not occur everywhere, but it would occur where ever heat is generally known to exist. With this approach, drilling companies bear the first half of the risk while gov. then helps in the second half.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Yeah, it would never dawn on a mining state to be interested in obtaining lithium, Rare Earths, etc. Nor would they or the EPA know how to handle this correctly.
Skipping the sarcasm, the drilling will likely be a binary system, and would be a good way to obtain minerals, elements since it is a by-product. Then what is left can be re-injected back in. Basically, it turns a well from a energy producer into a energy and mineral producer.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Although very generous, I think it's a bit of a stretch to call Google's grant to SMU a "collaboration", or to only mention Google and omit any mention of USDOE and other entities that have been funding this research at SMU and elsewhere for many years. For example, this this report from 2006, which points out the potential of the thermal hotspot in West Virginia...
It doesn't have the cool Google Earth graphics, however.
Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
Got to be due to global warming so we better have a great big tax on West Virginia
Thats okay. Our brown coal won't run out for thousands of years at the current rate!
But seriously we have so much flat, empty and hot land in this country we should be getting in to photovoltaic and solar thermal energy production. Transmission losses aren't really a big deal.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
West Virginia is a wild, beautiful place. They'll go in there and further exploit and destroy the natural beauty, like they have with coal mining (especially mountain top removal).
It's unconscionable.
Uhhh...have you actually SEEN the slushpits around the mines here in the USA? It ain't like the EPA has had any teeth in years buddy, sad to report. Instead of doing what would be sensible, forcing mines to pay into a fund so when the ore runs out the money for cleanup will be there, no our corporate booty kissing government just gives them carte blanche to do as they please, and then when the mine runs dry they just dissolve the company and leave We, The People, to clean up the mess. As an example you might want to read up on a little slice of heaven known as a superfund site.
I'm not a NIMBY, which especially don't apply here since I'm not in WV (thank Jebus), and I'm all for nuclear and mining, but I'm just as much for corporate responsibility which sadly has been DOA here for a couple of decades here at least.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
"If engineers are able to tap the heat..."
I never thought I'd say this about *anything* from West Virginia but...
*I'd tap that!*
Too bad Senator Byrd passed away, he could have diverted tens of billions of dollars to WV to fund this effort, then we could have had the Robert Byrd Hot Air Energy Generation Facility, and his legacy would live on!
Ken
Yeah, it would never dawn on a mining state to be interested in obtaining lithium, Rare Earths, etc. Nor would they or the EPA know how to handle this correctly.
They know, but they don't care.
Skipping the sarcasm, the drilling will likely be a binary system, and would be a good way to obtain minerals, elements since it is a by-product. Then what is left can be re-injected back in. Basically, it turns a well from a energy producer into a energy and mineral producer.
It doesn't work that way. What comes out of the earth is usually heavily contaminated and it's not cost-effective to try to separate it. Separating the metals takes a lot of big stuff that you don't want to build next to a geothermal hotspot because they're seismically active. When you start pumping stuff into the ground you increase the seismic activity. In order to pump the stuff into the ground at all you'll need to add water, which is going to have to be pumped in.
I live near to (formerly right next to) The Geysers, the most geothermally active spot on the planet. There is a geothermal plant there which is perpetually over budget and under-producing power compared to expectations. The turbine blades build up with heavy metals including arsenic. When there's enough to interfere with efficiency the turbines are suspended over an open pit and pressure-washed. The water is permitted to evaporate off the pit, and when it's full enough they pour a concrete cap on the pit, build the walls higher, and start again. This is an EPA-approved plan.
Before the EPA got involved they were filling up drums with the stuff and burying it in a field on Butts Canyon road. Then we started having cows born with two heads and stuff like that. They dug it up, put in a plastic liner, and reburied it. In another few decades we can have the same problem all over again.
When the steam started to run low due to overuse we started pumping sewage into the ground to add steam pressure. This worked, but seismic activity was multiplied by a factor of two or three. A massive lawsuit resulted in a payback program for local homeowners who can show seismic damage.
In short, the only kind of geothermal even suitable for use is heat pipe heating/cooling. It's not useful for large-scale power generation. We simply do not have the scruples necessary as a species to do geothermal power correctly. Also, the EPA is a bad fucking joke with no teeth, and suggesting that the EPA will protect us is preschool-level naivety.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I am an engineer and know Murphy is an optimist.
I live in Florida, you already know how I feel about drilling for energy.
Be sure they have Tommy Lee Jones and Bruce Willis on retainer.
They tried it in Basel (Switzerland), didn't work out too well for them.
They should check other states. Maybe they too have former state senators/KKK members spinning in their graves at the idea of a black US president?
Either that, or Satan finally came to collect his due.
-Styopa
What's wrong with the concrete pit design? You're not going to get a much better disposal solution than locking something into concrete. It's not like we can just magically wish for something to disappear.
Not trying to support the geothermal effort per se - I'm merely trying to figure out what your point on that complaint was.
I live near to (formerly right next to) The Geysers, the most geothermally active spot on the planet.
I think the birthplace of the word "geyser" would disagree with you on that assessment.
Near Inferno, West Virginia
Fiery Mountains, pyroclastic rivers
Life is doomed there, 'midst the blackened trees
See the mighty mountains tremb'lin like leaves
Lava flows, take me home
To the place that erupts
West Virginia, baleful mama
Take me home, Lava flows.
May the Maths Be with you!
What's wrong with the concrete pit design? You're not going to get a much better disposal solution than locking something into concrete. It's not like we can just magically wish for something to disappear.
Concrete and earthquakes don't mix particularly well. Nothing is "locked" into the concrete, they didn't mix the radioactives into it, it's a layer cake. If the cake breaks, then we'll have a worse release than anything we've seen in the region before, and we already have two superfund sites! So far the history at the plant is one of incompetence, so there is every reason to believe that it will fail eventually. The pit is built right next to the power-generating site, which means it's near the epicenter of all geyser-related seismic activity.
Not trying to support the geothermal effort per se - I'm merely trying to figure out what your point on that complaint was.
I don't believe anything a coward says. I think your actual goal is to make me look like an ass. Until you log in I will assume you are a lying troll.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
WV has a bad reputation, and story URLs like that are not going to help
No filthy drilling required. Just removing a mountaintop or two.
I thought this was tried both in Switzerland and Texas, with both resulting in very out of the ordinary earthquakes. Or was it caused by adding water to dry hot rock...
I think the birthplace of the word "geyser" would disagree with you on that assessment.
And yet, you lack the courage of your convictions necessary to log in.
"The Geysers" is the most geothermally active region in the world acre for acre. If you measure a country, which is too large to build a single geothermal plant on, you will get another result. If you measure a 1x1 inch area, you can probably come up with still another result. In practical terms, The Geysers is the most geothermally active spot that there is. This doesn't mean it's the best place to build a geothermal plant, of course; there are other considerations.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I used to live near a geothermal plant in New Zealand and it worked a treat. Guess it depends on who's in charge.
mediocrity rules, man
Yeah it would totally provide 6 of each!
So they made this discover *after* strip mining everything. The West Virginia of the song is long, long gone. For us all that remains is a poster on the wall, a terrible view outside the window, a few sweet memories and a bottle of whisky.
I used to live near a geothermal plant in New Zealand and it worked a treat. Guess it depends on who's in charge.
Well, I've not checked up on your environmental record, AFAIK it's quite good though. However, ours is not, and since both the location we're talking about and the plant I'm talking about are in the same country, it's probably safe to assume that any new plants on the site would also be mismanaged.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
...Your MOM is a geothermal ho.
How much heat can we suck out of the earth before we start noticing effects? When we first sipped from oil deposits we thought the supply was unlimmited - so we built billions oil-fueled cars and painted ourselves into a corner. Would someone with real credentials please stand up and say what needs to be said: Geo-thermal is a finite supply - and at some level of human consumption mining it will destabilize our planet.
- The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
Much of the earth's internal heat is not generated by radioactive decay or tidal forces, but is transient, left over from when the earth formed. Its necessary for plate techtonics, which helps keep the surface chemically in balance despite erosion and natural forms of pollution. Its also necessary for the magnetic field and its shielding effect.
If we drill for geothermal energy for power on a large scale, do we hasten the earth's cooling by any appreciable amount? The effect must be tiny, and adverse results would be very, very, long term. But people don't seem to care very much about the very long term, and hastening the geological death of the earth would seem to me to be a very bad thing.
Maybe someone who's done a crude estimate could answer this. I haven't seen it discussed anywhere on the net.
Actually brown coal can act as a nice insulating blanket over geothermal heat sources so you can find the hot stuff closer to the surface than expected. There is research looking at that in the Latrobe Valley in Australia. Also in Australia is an ongoing project to map likely geothermal sites along the path of existing power transmission lines.
Transmission losses ARE a big deal NOW since most lines are made of aluminium and consumers may be 1000km from a power source. There's also weird stuff with harmonics I don't understand that means it's best not to try to push those electrons too far if you want to get some use out of them.
Here we were, blaming undergrads for those couches pulled off of porches and set ablaze after WVU football games... and all along, it was just spontaneous combustion as hot spots poked through the surface...!
mmm... yeah... You see, we're putting the cover sheets on all TPS reports now before they go out...
Drilling deep holes is astonishingly expensive and the price goes up just about exponentially with depth. You find what you are looking for AND THEN drill. Even in Australia where the best geothermal site is under the Cooper oil basin it's still a lot deeper than the oil and costs millions more to drill the test holes.
and as shallow as 5 kilometers
Their definition of "shallow" varies greatly from mine.
Is it even practical to do geothermal energy at that depth?
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Hairy,
I live here in COlorado. Believe me, we have loads of mine and loads of wells. A coal mine IS dirty. Gold, Uranium, etc are even dirtier. We have loads of issues with irresponsible companies that have been here and the fact that they do not restore the land.
BUT, a MINE is not a well. Wells biggest issues are those that are fracking and having taken shortcuts. Those shortcuts save a few bucks, but typically allow leaks (think of the recent gulf oil spill). But geo-thermal is different. Compared to mining (and compared to solar PV/wind/etc), it is clean.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Actually, each state combined with EPA decides how and what to enforce. It is up to WV to take the needed actions
Now, as to seperating the minerals, that is already being looked at. Today, it is expensive, but in the geysers, they are working on making this cheap. In addition, that same approach is used in Canada and here in the west to extract uranium from the soil.
Short answer, it may be expensive today, but will be cheaper with time.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Oh, on a side note; arsenic is non-mutagenic. If you have cattle with 2 heads, then you have an issue. But it is not arsenic.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
You mean, like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crack_in_the_World ?
Well, at least Hollywood in the 60's believed that scientists with nukes could do it.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Not that this comment will get read, you know, being so far down the page...
Presumably, the hotter the temperature, the better, in terms of generating geothermal energy. That means that the eastern part of the state (with the exception of the panhandle) would be the best for generating geothermal. However, a lot of that land along the WV/VA border is protected: state parks, national forests, national rec areas, and a large number of caverns that are declared off-limits. The Greenbanks radio astronomy telescope is also in that area, and a couple miles around it are restricted from having wireless communications or other serious electrical equipment that could interfere with radio astronomy.
On the other hand, if coal ever goes out of fashion, I guess the state will have to make a decision - with coal and tourism being our two biggest sources of money, I guess they'll have to decide whether the state parks are more valuable for tourism or generating power.
Short answer, it may be expensive today, but will be cheaper with time.
I have every confidence that if it does become cheaper it will become that way at the expense of some additional environmental devastation, especially if it is being done at the geysers, which has a frankly horrible record and which is STILL causing problems today; the shit-pumping continues, the increased seismic activity continues. The Geysers would have shut down by now if not for the shit-pumping. The whole thing is a ridiculous boondoggle that ought to have been long since scrapped.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Just got back from Iceland, the whole country is powered by geothermal wells. In fact, the main power plant has a pipe feed of hot water to supply Rejykavik, and when you take a shower there you smell like rotten eggs.
I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
All they have to do is remove the top 5 kilometers of mountain top and then that hot water will be at the surface for easy pickins.
Never shake hands with a man you meet in a fertility clinic.
"Dude, that West Virginia is soooo hot. I gotta tap that."
I live near to (formerly right next to) The Geysers, the most geothermally active spot on the planet.
You probably also still believe that the pizza around the corner really is the WORLDS BEST PIZZA!!! sure.
Once you travel outside your county, come visit the "Blue Lagoon Spa" in Iceland.
http://goscandinavia.about.com/od/thebluelagooniniceland/ss/bluelagoonphoto.htm
Last time i was there, we spent an amazingly relaxing afternoon soaking in - effectively - the runn-off of a geo-thermal power plant.
It's built out as a spa resort.
They sell the sludge as "skin care product" to visitors, and i'm sure you'll find some or it in a high end spa of your choice.
I guess it just depends on who's propaganda you listen to this morning.
"West Virginia due to its abundant coal, so geothermal energy probably can't compete for business from utilities there. But Hohn says the state's extensive network of power lines makes it a good candidate for exporting electricity produced by geothermal power to nearby states such as Maryland, Virginia, and Pennsylvania."
When electricity created using coal is so cheap that geothermal energy is to expensive your eletricity is really way to cheap.
And I have to say I was a little amazed. Geoscientists were surprised to find geothermal activity... in WV? The land of hot springs? Yes, you are correct that hot springs don't necessarily imply good geothermal energy production... but it's certainly suggestive. I still don't understand why anyone found this surprising.
And speaking of idiots - don't use an apostrophe to form a plural.
... to all the currently operating PV and wind energy generating systems out there. Seriously, have you ever driven in the US? There are wind farms all over the freaking place. Lots of home solar PV installation businesses are going like gangbusters. And all of this activity is useless (or even against the laws of physics)? I don't think so.
... is that PV companies can make more money sellling their PV systems than they can save by putting them in themselves. Which is not exactly an indictment of PV systems.
Call me when you think of an actual argument.
"Geothermically". Are we making up words now. The term is "Geothermal" so "Geothermally" active. Jeesh.
Really? Government estimates dirty coal's got less than 50yrs world supply left at current consumption. The often cited 200 yr figure is if the US adopts Kyoto and Climate Change legislation with the rest of the civilized world and uses 40% renewable energy by 2020, and 80% by 2040.
Yes they do. They're just bureaucrats who answer to the regime, not the people. For example, when Congress failed to pass cap and trade, they unilaterally decided to call carbon dioxide a harmful substance so they could regulate it without legislation. This benefits the President's friends who have all made investments in carbon credit exchanges.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Is that the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Systems (CJIS) unit is in West Virginia. Were we to loose that law enforcement around the country would loose the ability to identify subject based on ten-print. So lets relocate it to a geologically less active area of the country, like the northeast.
Geothermal Power for electricity generation which may need specific geological conditions should not be confused with Geothermal Exchange for home heating and cooling which everyone can do almost everywhere. For Geothermal Exchange, basically bury the AC unit a few hundred feet into the ground and homes can be heated and cooled for pennies on the dollar compared with gas and electric.
It doesn't work that way. What comes out of the earth is usually heavily contaminated and it's not cost-effective to try to separate it. Separating the metals takes a lot of big stuff that you don't want to build next to a geothermal hotspot because they're seismically active. When you start pumping stuff into the ground you increase the seismic activity. In order to pump the stuff into the ground at all you'll need to add water, which is going to have to be pumped in.
I live near to (formerly right next to) The Geysers, the most geothermally active spot on the planet. There is a geothermal plant there which is perpetually over budget and under-producing power compared to expectations. The turbine blades build up with heavy metals including arsenic. When there's enough to interfere with efficiency the turbines are suspended over an open pit and pressure-washed. The water is permitted to evaporate off the pit, and when it's full enough they pour a concrete cap on the pit, build the walls higher, and start again. This is an EPA-approved plan.
Sounds like a business opportunity to me. Build a solar still, contract with a lead-acid battery company to deliver your pure arsenic to, get the geothermal company to pay you to drain the tanks, get the lead-acid battery company to pay you for the profit.
Same idea as Guiness and Kraft Marmite.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
At the temperatures that this would run at, most of what you're going to get in the return is sulfides and halides. Extracting anything interesting is going to leave you with a bunch of sulfur and chlorine. It's going to be far more economical and ecological to just pump it back down than to try and extract minerals. But even then there's going to be continual release of hydrogen sulfide, at least, and accumulation of sulfur compounds and salts in solid form.
That's not to say it shouldn't be done. Everything has an environmental cost, and this beats taking the top of a mountain and filling the valleys with the rubble by a long shot.
Support SETI@home
You make good points, esp. with regard to the current state of EPA regulations in the US there perhaps is no way to do geothermal production. But there certainly are ways to do it and to do it cleanly, even here in the US. We just need to adopt proven models for doing so, adapting them as necessary given the local conditions.
The Geysers, the most geothermally active spot on the planet.
[citation needed]
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
How did this thread get so far without any derogatory references to the redneck hillbillies of West Virginia? Surely someone could come up with a joke about how they'll end up using the wells to make moonshine, or something...
[SARCASM]
Apparently the obama administration thinks it has more supporters in northern california than west virginia... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/12/science/earth/12quake.html
[/SARCASM]
You have yet to cite your source for that claim.
There's also weird stuff with harmonics
Western Australia has this problem in a few places. Its a big state and some of their transmission lines approach a resonant length at the 50Hz mains frequency. The story is that this is part of the reason why the normal mains voltage in other states is 240V but in WA its 260.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
If you're using HVDC - and you'd be crazy not to over long distances - typical transmission losses over 1000 KM are 3-5%.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
Small correction. We're not pumping "sewage" into the geysers, we're pumping tertiary treated waste water, which I've drunk, straight out of the Santa Rosa water treatment plant's little fountain.
Certainly geothermal can be workable, but it's probably better done somewhere like Nevada which is sparsely populated. Of course there, water needs become an issue.
Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
I'm right along with you when it comes to incompetence by the plant officials; they should be storing those heavy metals adequately, particularly in one of the most seismically active regions of the country. But I would like to point out that most active, near surface, geo-thermally usable areas tend to have high seismic activity naturally, so it's kind of tough to build plants where there isn't earthquake activity.
You're right about the EPA not having any teeth, but that really isn't the fault of the EPA per se, now is it?
GIven the population demands out there, I suppose the only other short-term option would be nuclear...
(BTW, I'm not the anonymous coward you were responding to; this is something of an interest, I was out that way in '91 and loved the country there, almost moved there and would have if I hadn't been saddled with college debt. Beautiful country, for the most part really great people. )
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
I'll be the first to name the coming catastrophe...core cooling! It will destroy us all! We need to stop taking energy from the core or the Earth is DOOMED! What's that you say? One thermal tapping well is insignificant? Yeah, so is one can of hairspray and one car.
Oh and global wind stoppage! All those power generating windmills are stopping too much wind and ruining the climate!
Okay, that one's moderately stupid but if we went big with it and drilled like 10 million geothermal wells, I bet it would make a difference. Who doesn't want to hop in a time machine and slap Henry Ford or whatever in the face for deciding on gasoline? And whoever made coal big time too. Isn't this right around the correct time that we ought to be thinking of the impact of new technologies? Now solar is the one that obviously doesn't make a damn ounce of difference and never well no matter how high it scales up.
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
But first you need to convert your power produced from spinning generators from AC to DC, then you need to push it down conductors of huge diameter and then you need to convert it back to AC so it ends up more than your 3-5% in total. Of course after a certain length it is worth it.
There isn't a lot of HVDC around yet so my argument about transmission losses stand. I'm talking about the present situation without your misleading assumption that the entire electrical transmission system has been replaced.
It's not as if it was invented yesterday and is only being used for trivial projects.
Here a Wikipedia list of HVDC projects, presumably in this space-time continuum, dating back over a hundred years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_HVDC_projects
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
It's a big world out there and very little of it uses HVDC no matter how long it has been in use. That is why Transmission losses ARE a big deal NOW just about everywhere.
It is all just a matter of being dependent on other countries natural reserves vs. funding it with tax money.
Bullshit!!! Coal gets more federal subsidies than any other energy source in the US. That is unless the cost of war is included, in which case it's petroleum. Nuclear power is second, unless farm subsidies for corn, which is a bad feedstock, based ethanol is included. Each receives multiples of billions of US dollars in taxpayer money. Yet until Obama became president all alternative source, except the fore mentioned corn based ethanol, had to share about $1 Billion. Rep Edward Markey brags "My Climate Bill 'Has Huge Subsidies For Clean Coal! Huge!'" In it he lists some of the subsidies various energy sources get. And Chevron CEO Dave O'Reilly agrees to lobby with Sierra Club to end coal subsidies. The article originally published in Reason: Free Minds and Free Markets" then published online by CATO Institute: Individual Liberty, Free Markets, and Peace titled "Nuclear Energy: Risky Business" starts with "Nuclear energy is to the Right what solar energy is to the Left: Religious devotion in practice, a wonderful technology in theory, but an economic white elephant in fact (some crossovers on both sides notwithstanding)." Another CATO article, Hooked on Subsidies, first published in "Forbes" says how the Nuclear Power industry is as the title says, "hooked on subsidies". Even in countries where nuclear power is big, China, France, India, and Russia it's state actors or the government and not the market that decides what gets built. In brief the US Department of Energy answers the question How much does the Federal Government spend on energy-specific subsidies and support? By fiscal year 2007 all forms of renewable energy got $4.9 billion in subsides, $3 billion of that for ethanol. All other sources had to share the other $1.9 billion. Now how much did coal get? Refined coal got about $2.4 billion and with another $854 million on other coal. And nuclear power got $1.267 billion.
You say you're in Germany. The article Spain slashes solar energy subsidies laments that Berlin decided to continue to use nuclear power. And that Madrid slashed solar subsidies. Another says the same in Germany, Germany to cut subsidies for solar energy .
Personally I'd rather see all energy subsidies eliminated. ALL!!! Let a freer market decide winners and losers not government. What governments can do is make sure the markets are kept open as long as they can compeat, and they pay all their costs including external costs.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
"In the borehole pressure mines 100km beneath Planetsurface, at the Mohorovicic Discontinuity where crust gives way to mantle, temperatures often reach levels well in excess of 1000 degrees Celsius. Exploitation of Planet's resources under such brutal conditions has required quantum advances in robotic and teleoperational technology."
Morgan Industries, Ltd.
"Annual Report"
Emotions! In your brain!
Yea, railroads can use that geothermal energy to power those high speed maglevs.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Photovoltaics do have the advantage of being deployable very close to where the electricity will be used, which could (partly) pay for itself in reduced power grid work.
I support solar, and wind, and geothermal, but solar PVs are not practical everywhere. Neither are concentrators. Use what energy is practical in each location.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
...Even Lord Xenu!
That's why you create cryogenically frozen superconductor lines. Assuming the power savings are worth it...
"People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
One day, hopefully, we will be trying to extend our society beyond the life of the Sun.
While the sun is thought to have billions of years before it burns out, men as in the male sex may only have on the order of a few hundred thousand years before they become extinct. A debate is going on as to whether man can continue without intervention, as in genetic engineering.
we as a species are trying to maintain our style/standard of living out as far as possible
I'm no Malthusian but I don't think the whole world can live as people in the US do today.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Transmission loss numbers that I can find for the US are 6.7% in 1997 and 6.5% in 2007.
HVDC is becoming increasing popular for new projects, which is a good thing, and it may be worth it to retrofit existing links, which, of course, will take decades but, at least those jobs can't be outsourced.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
You're right about the EPA not having any teeth, but that really isn't the fault of the EPA per se, now is it?
It's the environment we exist in, though.
(BTW, I'm not the anonymous coward you were responding to; this is something of an interest, I was out that way in '91 and loved the country there, almost moved there and would have if I hadn't been saddled with college debt. Beautiful country, for the most part really great people. )
Really? I mostly hate the people, they're a bunch of dumb ignorant rednecks who don't want to know anything. Ignorance is curable, willful ignorance is pathetic. There ARE some GREAT people here but as far as I can tell, they are well into the minority. After ignorant rednecks we have racist natives, then neocon retirees. The local government is as corrupt as you could imagine; this is one of those many California towns full of streets still named after the Mafia families who used to run the place, who built the private airfields, et cetera. We still have Mafia road repair which is why it blows. Every year they keep paying the same fuckers to make the roads more lumpy than they were before they worked on 'em.
This used to be a cool place to hunt and fish but you can't eat any large fish you catch from the lake because of mercury toxicity and the public hunting lands are considered dangerous because of Mexican nationals illegally growing marijuana; the death count is still pretty low, but it's rising yearly. Oh yeah, and traffic accidents keep rising, usually on the highway 20, typically around blue lakes but anywhere on the northwest side of the lake is common, mostly due to grey-hairs pulling out in front of people who are doing highway speed, as they are supposed to be, and to texters and drunks and texting drunks coming over the line between Ukiah and Upper Lake.
Don't even get me started on the city of Clearlake, the Mercury-contaminated shallow end of the gene pool of Lake County.
In short, go somewhere else. That's my plan. I moved here because I had family here and I was over a barrel at the time; the family turned out to be more trouble than help so I have no reason to stay. There's good people everywhere but the concentration around these parts is pretty low. And if you don't own an amphibious car then the lake which is too gross to swim in becomes a major hindrance any time you want to get some errands done.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Without context that unfortunately means nothing unlike the HVDC figure you provided before which was an estimate for a known distance, and most likely optimum load. I'll assume it's an average and get back to it below.
AC transmission losses are dependant upon distance, cross section of the conductor, current and frequency, and those losses can be very significant. For one example I observed when four local units went offline there was ~840MW of spare capacity at one end of an 800km line which was unusable because any extra current would have increased the losses to the point where less power would be transmitted (extra resistance from heat). That line typically ran close to maximum load normally so the losses were huge. There's now another parallel line but that's a good example of trying to shift a lot of power a long way on the existing grid. It doesn't work very well.
If those numbers above are an average those low losses are due to keeping the power generation capacity close to where it's being used and wouldn't be losses at peak times (the losses are not linear).
It's not a matter of saying losses are low so we can have long lines everywhere - the average losses are low BECAUSE we DON'T have long lines everywhere.
You are right that HVDC changes that and it turns previously stupid ideas like getting thermal solar power from the Sahara into Europe or tidal hydro from Newfoundland to New York into ideas that are no longer so stupid so long as new transmission infrastructure goes in as well. We just don't have a lot of HVDC yet which is why I said losses are important.
All this because I mentioned a geothermal survey following existing transmission lines!
Our brown coal won't run out for thousands of years at the current rate!
Are Reserves of the Largest US Coal Field Overstated by 50%? Coal reserves: "Perhaps no question has more relevance to strategies for dealing with the global warming crisis than the distribution and quantity of coal available for future mining." How much coal is out there?
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Transmission losses ARE a big deal NOW since most lines are made of aluminium and consumers may be 1000km from a power source.
Electrical transmission losses over long distances is only a problem if the electricity is AC. Over long distances the losses from transmission is much lower using High Voltage Direct Current, HVDC. Now there are losses for conversion from AC to DC but those losses are less than the losses from transmitting via AC. And conversion is getting more efficient. But using the right stuff what is converted can be reduced. That computer you're using, it's power supply converts the AC power from the wall socket to DC. Radios and TVs do the same. Those who build Off the Grid take all that into consideration when designing their system.
Heck, Thomas Edison's Con Edison power company transmitted DC. It was only after Nicoli Tesla came along when AC was used. In an attempt to discredit AC Edison went so far as to electrocute an elephant, Topsy. Because Topsy had killed 3 men she was sentenced to death and Edison saw that as a good way to show how dangerous AC was. However he was not successful right away, Topsy had to be executed a few tymes before she died, in agony.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Having spent a considerable amount of time in Canada, long transmission lines don't seem at all unusual. Quebec alone has tens of thousands of kilometres of AC long lines at outrageously high voltages and sells power to US states even though the hydro stations are a long way from the province's major cities as well as the US customer base.
Their claimed transmission losses are 4-8%. In the course of fact-checking, I've come across something I'd not heard of before - HVDC light. Seems to be an interesting compromise but I haven't had time to dig beneath the hype.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body