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Oracle's Newest Move To Undermine Android
GMGruman writes "Oracle's decision to shift focus from the Harmony Java open source project to OpenJDK seems innocuous enough — but InfoWorld's Josh Fruhlinger explains it's part of an effort to derail Google's mobile Android OS by gutting the open source project that Android has been driven by. IBM has signed on, apparently in return for getting the Java Community Process reactivated, leaving Google in a bind."
Fuck you Oracle. Android is the only mobile OS worth using on the market right now, why are you trying to fuck that up? Its not like Apple's garbage is worth using.
Can someone explain why Oracle cares about the success/failure of Android? I honestly don't know.
Google is full of smart people. I'm sure they saw this move - and the entire assault on mobile Java and derivatives thereof - coming long before Oracle started their anti-Android crusade. I'd be willing to bet that Google has something new 'brewing' for Android 3 that will leave this whole mess behind. You just don't get that many programmers together without a few being paranoid enough to have planned an 'escape module'.
Forgive the layman here, but why can't Android simply switch Java platforms as well? Open is Open, no?
Did this surprise anyone?
Let us all remember that ORACLE stands for "One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison"
This is the company that buys out someone else and does not even bother to offer the customers a migration path. Nor any form of support other than letting you fill out a bug report they close as the product is EOL.
Given that this project is only just starting, why can't they just port everything that they need from Harmony into OpenJDK and change over in V4?
I know this is simplictic, but as an idea, where would it fail?
Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
avoid the fees B.S. and just ship the 100 meg java SDK with android and be done with it. it even has a patent cross licensing clause. yes its bloated. yes developers might not use any of its features. who the fuck cares ? just ship the damn thing and keep the JVM compatible. if a nokia dumbphone from 5 years ago can ship with j2me so can an android smartphone.
Sun started OpenJDK as the project from which the GPL'ed version of Java would be created.
It stands to reason, that Sun had planned to discontinue supporting Harmony when OpenJDK was formed.
Don't mean to spoil a good conspiracy...
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Well I was going to read about this, but all of a sudden some Xerox jerk comes along and spills papers everywhere blocking the text of the article.
I got so annoyed I just left...thanks InfoWorld/Xerox!
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
We already know that Dalvik VM itself isn't like JVM. It can be mapped one-to-one (at least going from JVM bytecode to Dalvik bytecode), but the basic architecture is different.
Android also has its own rich class library, while retaining some stock fundamental Java classes. Of those some are inherently implemented mostly by the VM (Object, String...), so presumably they are also Dalvik-specific, while others have Java implementation - collections, for example. I assume the latter is what is taken from Harmony. The obvious question, then, is - how much code is that? Somehow, I suspect that it's not all that big, and so Google could just take over those bits it needs - rather than Harmony as a whole - without having to contribute significant resources to it.
What about GNU JRE? I know ORACLE owns Java when they bought Sun, but is that only Sun's implementation, or can they charge you for using free implementations, too (via patents I assume)?
It is remarkable if Oracle or IBM would expect 'the community' to support them after this fiasco. What on earth do they expect? Google currently have FAR more respect with the open community, and OpenJDK would simply supplant Oracle's offering with Google's backing?
Google is famous for building a piece of cool software to version .8 or so and then releasing it under open source and letting everyone else finish the work. they build some cool software for internal use but for all their consumer products they expect everyeone else to finisht the work or let a cool product like google reader languish
Oracle is trying to claim that Dalvik, Android's virtual machine infringes on mobile java patents. Mobile java was not included when Java received it's current "open" licensing.
And I'm sure part of the reason why Mobile Java wasn't in the "open licensing" was the carriers. That is, Sun had already extracted some money out of the carriers and met with a very nice bit of success there. Remember, before Apple's iPhone and Google's Android, JavaME was a big success in offering advanced features (that sucks compared to today's offerings). It was a big success for Sun licensing wise--something the original Java was not.
But with that money came a very, very hefty price. They had to bend over backwards to give the carriers what they wanted in order to "add value". One of those was charging developers $500+ a pop to be able to release applications for their network. Another for the developers to pay extra to access certain features (location). And another still was for companies like Verizon and Sprint to just flat out turn off certain features.
Which is why Apple didn't do JavaME (I remember being pretty bummed when they didn't)--they wanted complete control, and they would never get that with JavaME.
And Google had similar needs--but also didn't want to pay the licensing costs everyone else did.
JavaME was a money maker for Sun (unlike the standard Java VM), but the process of making money off of it made it a nightmare to deploy apps on. Development--writing code--was ok, but getting it to work on multiple headsets (nevermind multiple carriers) was a huge headache. And it was a huge headache because of all the compromises Sun made to get the carriers on board. And that nightmare (in addition to licensing costs) is why Google came up with their own VM implementation.
I used to be a big Java proponent for mobile development. I'm not anymore. But it is interesting to see how all those bad decisions (I cursed Sun weekly as I tried to wrestle another carrier or headset down) played out into what we have now.
Google didn't want to pay the money. Microsoft (via Miguel) likes to say they would have been better, but they are just as bad on the licensing (see HTC and now Motorola). Sounds to me like Google got used to their free ride on Java and balked at the idea of giving anyone a slice of their work and money on Android.
I'm not saying Ellison is not squeezing them (he definitely is), just that Google is kind of getting a bucket of cold water in their face about how the tech companies "collaborate" in new tech fields. Not "fair", but it is kind of predictable.
"Doubt your doubts and believe your beliefs." -- Switchfoot, Ode to Chin
And Larry Ellison's good buddies with Steve Jobs. Coincidence? I think not.
Sergey vs. Larry.
Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
Sun/Oracle holds several patents on Java technology. They will only issue licenses to these patents to implementations that pass their compatibility tests. Without this license, the source code is freely distributable, but you risk being sued if you actually use it. Harmony and other java reimplementation have struggled with being in this legal grey area for some time. The trick is you have to pay a big chunk of money to Sun/Oracle for this compatibility test. Furthermore, Android's implementation wouldn't pass because they only ship a subset of the standard library, and because they compile to a different bytecode format. Furthermore, Sun has not been as open when it comes to J2ME. Android is cutting into J2ME revenue, and Oracle are greedy bastards in general, so they would like for everyone who runs Android to pay them patent royalties.
I'd be willing to bet that Google has something new 'brewing' for Android 3 that will leave this whole mess behind.
But what would the brew be, that would work with all of the existing applications written in Java today?
You mention programmers being paranoid which implies a technical solution, but how can even the smartest programmer have developed an escape module from what is essentially a legal problem...
You also imply some Java variant to be switched to ("brewing" in quotes) but that doesn't get around the fundamental patent issues.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Except they never tried to pass it off as Java. It's Dalvik. It just happens to share Java's grammar.
Google's What is Android? pages mentions Java several times. A notable quote includes:
All applications are written using the Java programming language.
It's not like that is passing mention either. It's repeated several times throughout the site. From the Application Fundamentals:
Android applications are written in the Java programming language. The compiled Java code -- along with any data and resource files required by the application ...
They must not like your browser, it didn't do that to me. But you didn't miss much -- TFA's author was really reaching, unless I missed something.
Free Martian Whores!
Seriously. If I was Google, I would block all of Oracle's IP space from accessing any Google service. And, hell, IBM's too, for good measure. Then I would threaten to block the IPs of all of Oracle's big customers.
What is Oracle going to do? Google isn't a public utility. Yeah, Oracle would obviously sue Google immediately, but that would work in Google's favor- they could say "Open up Java, and we'll unblock you."
For that matter, what law says that Google has to give you access to their site? I can't think of one that would apply.
Google holds ALL the cards, is what I'm saying. Oracle is too stupid to realize that, but that's no surprise. They've always been stupid, and they were stupid enough to buy Sun.
Of those some are inherently implemented mostly by the VM (Object, String...), so presumably they are also Dalvik-specific, while others have Java implementation - collections, for example. I assume the latter is what is taken from Harmony. The obvious question, then, is - how much code is that?
It's a huge amount of code when you consider how reliant Java code is to how strings work, to how the networking classes work, to how date handling works, to how internationalization works...
At the core of any modern language framework is a huge reliance on the equivalent of a string class. It's not a minor thing just to re-write that, let alone the many other classes that make up the core of the Java foundation frameworks.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
JVM's have a fixed cost to develop them, just as Dalvik has a fixed cost to develop new and exciting features like JIT's and better GC's. IBM has J9, BEA (now Oracle) has JRocket, Sun (now Oracle) has Hotspot. Instead of writing their own customized JVM's they've decided to collaborate (I assume) to cut costs and streamline the JVM's presentation and roll-out to customers. How is this some super secret attack on Android?
Harmony is open and will remain open for the foreseeable future. Its not like BEA/Oracle/IBM were big supporters of harmony before this deal was inked... The question being is if Dalvik's JVM its susceptible to software patents which will now be tested (again?) in court with Google.
Correction: If by attack, you mean that they are making a better product faster, then you can make that giant leap, but really, J9 and JRocket are really server targeted JVM's, so I think the alliance is really to make a better server JVM. Maybe they're seeing increased competition with .NET or the scripting web platforms and they want to step up their games, who knows.
Bye!
IBM and Oracle both know that. The goal here is probably more to remove any FUD around
Java as a commercial development option than to pull support from Harmony. It is very
good for JavaSE and EE, the platform for a good fraction of all commercial software
development today.
But what would the brew be, that would work with all of the existing applications written in Java today?
It would be the Brew that is True, so Google wants to avoid the Vessel with the Pestle. I'm sure this means they'll choose the Chalice from the Palace.
There is an open source version of the Flex SDK (ActionScript 3.0).
ActionScript 3.0 has a syntax very similar to Java and many different free tools and libraries. There is an open source implementation in Mozilla's Tamarin project.
Google could also use some of the work they have done on their Javascript engine.
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/tamarin/
Google could even buy Adobe.
It's really Google that undermines Android by using the Dalvik VM, with its (even if slightly) incompatible bytecode instead of actual 100% Java that can run on any properly compatible JVM. That move just opens the platform to this kind of disruption. Why did Google do it, anyway?
If Google had made Android simply a (perhaps heavily) patched Linux kernel distro, with its own variation on the GNU tools and userland, with a standard JVM, it would have tapped the entire large and dynamic Linux developer community, and all the apps that already run directly on Linux, as well as all the Java apps that already run on other devices, mobile/embedded/desktop/etc. Why fragment the Linux/Java platform that way, and depend on defending the isolated fragment?
--
make install -not war
The only free mobile phone stack out there, from top to bottom, is MeeGo (formerly Moblin and Maemo). It is on Linux (GPL), then on Qt (GPL). There are NO FEES except for being in the Nokia Ovi (App) store. The problem is then handsets... or is it? Qt branches work on Android (NDK, marginally using Java via a stub loader) and in iPhone. So If you want to side step the license issue, and get platform independence, then Qt is the way to go.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
It has been blogged and written about since Java was released. Basically Sun granted you limited rights to their trap, sorry, Java. I know C++ could be a pain at times, but why oh why did IT departments the world over fall into this trap?
The single good thing from this whole Google/Oracle blow up is that people may start to review their usage of Java, and move onto more modern, or more free tools.
Why don't we all do like Google and put a "fork" in it.
As a Droid 1 buyer I have seen what has happened to android handsets. The platform is great but the carriers and vendors are screwing it up. My next phone will likely be a Nokia if they make anotherN900/N9 in late 2011.
Apache Harmony is virtually feature complete, certainly as far as the bits that android uses. Do anyone thing IBM pulling developers from Harmony is going to hurt Google? At worst they'll hire a few more developers which I'm sure is a crippling overhead for a company their size.
I think we can we just safely ignore Oracle and IBM when it comes to small mobile low power environments, because honestly what do they know about it. They don't compete in that space, and have never shown an interest in that space.
Dalvik is a clean room implementation, so no problem there. Oracle's Java patents might take years to prove in court, and Google has a pretty nice patent portfolio of their own. I'm sure there are some search, clustering, or virtualization patents in Google's pocket that Oracle might need. I predict that this will just end up in a patent trade deal like most other tech lawsuits between giant corporations.
Most of all, I suspect Google is pretty flexible with Android's architecture, and could possibly target something other than Java to Dalvik and make that the primary language to support. Go on Dalvik seems like reasonable possibility to me. If Oracle tries to grab onto Google/Android too tightly it might just slip between their fingers.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
This is like the smart-phone chicken-and-egg from a few years ago. When most smartphones ran WinCE, the smartphone market was small because WinCE was crap. Then Blackberry and Apple made devices that people wanted to use, and created the smartphone mass market.
Java ME is crippled by the carriers. The requirement to shag about with carrier approvals to get access to the network, or Bluetooth, or the local filesystem means that it's nigh on impossible to create useful, widely-used applets- about the only thing you can do is games. Imagine re-submitting your approval to basically every carrier on the planet, for every little revision you make: it only makes sense for specific vertical applications. Java ME can't recover from this, it's never going to be more than a niche solution even though it was intended to be the One Platform For All.
With Apple you have to jump through hoops to get into the MFi program and pay them a tithe for the privilege, but at least once you're there you know your product will work, and continue to work, without carriers getting in the way.
I'm still waiting to see how this will play out on Android, and hoping that the carriers don't screw it up. Now Oracle is throwing a spanner in the works as well and it's not looking too good. But if Android fails to establish an unfettered platform for useful apps, then we're back to Java ME (which is nowhere)... I'm actually casting an eye sideways at WP7, and the temperature in hell is rapidly decreasing.
You guys do realize Symbian runs Java... well I'm not sure about the newest versions of their MeeGo or whatever, but Symbian 60 v30 or whatever does. Also, RIM applications are Java run on the JVM within the BlackBerry OS.. way to just limit this to Google/Android!
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1865/
really quite simple. fork Java and support the open calls. if Oracle and big business wants to ignore the open Java, then their sites don't work. they'll come around or lose to somebody else's bizwebbiething.
fork it to fork him.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Come on. Is it so far off topic to imagine the humor in google sending skynet-esque robot cars to harass Ellison in revenge, expressed as a homage to Russ Meyer?
But with no major financial backing for the development of its Java libraries, Android could slip behind and lose the love of its Java-savvy developer base.
Doesn't Google count as a major financial backer?
Fuck Oracle.
Ya i think i'm going to start ignoring Infoworld/PCworld the last few articles i've read from them have been veeery streeaachy.
Oracle paid a bundle for Sun, and are willing to 'light it on fire to save the heating costs'. With RIM now relegating java apps to "legacy support" in RIM-OS-next, Android are it for Java in the mobile computing space. Why would Oracle want to pick a fight? Oh, right, they don't care, and just want to get whatever cash they can for the Java assets that were bundled with Sun.
My bet is that Oracle will calve "Java, Inc", and Google will buy it. The valuation will work out to about 1/4 the original price of Sun, and Oracle shares will rise.
I wouldn't say it's the only one worth using. Palm's (now HP's) WebOS is also linux-based, supports js, java, c++ based apps, and they are actively supporting the open-source community, even to the point of actively documenting how to (officially) gain root access. Not to mention much better multi-tasking support.
So don't feel like Android is the only remaining underdog to compete w/ Apple... Android itself is a rather closed environment compared to the alternatives that are also out there.
DIE, JAVA, DIE!
Didnt MS get sued By Sun for the very same thing? Yes im too lazy to google it
Jack of all trades,master of none
if Google has to pay a license fee to Oracle.
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
Seems like Python would be the obvious second language to be compiled to Dalvik bytecode.
See this thread from back in 2008 before Android even shipped.
Linked at the bottom of that thread are the Dalkvik VM docs (link updated to head).
Also is a Stack Overflow post that links to many methods for Python and scripting languages to create Android apps. (Though some methods like Jython are still using Java.)
The theory is that we have this capitalistic system so that the profit motive drives innovation which makes thing better for society. Life get better for everyone in the long run.
The practice is crap like this. Decisions are based on lawsuits and business strategies, not on innovation. Resources are allocated for defensive purposes or to pay lawyers or make "campaign contributions" (aka bribes). There is no level playing field, there is no open competition, unless you confuse competition with entrenched monopolies fighting over which of them will be the last monopoly standing.
The goal of all this is so that Ellison can build a bigger more automated yacht, or the Google Twins can move up a notch in the world's richest asshole competition.
All the innovation that we are exploiting now happened decades ago. We are coasting, and we will shortly grind to a halt because instead of funding actual innovation the institutions and individuals are wasting their resources on crap like this. But what happens next? To innovate takes time and money, so how do we get back up to speed? It's not going to be pretty.
Why is Snark Required?
Being from Nokia, forget it. They're just as bad as other companies and have lawsuits against competitors. Personally, I was turned off by them after I bought an expensive Nokia monitor, which got good reviews. It didn't display colours accurately, it showed a greenish tint, so when I called while it was still under warranty I was told to ship it in. I had to pay for shipment but when I got it back it showed the same tint. Some may say that that was because of the graphics card in the computer, but the green tint was displayed when I've had different PCs connected.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Google currently has some good margins and takes in a lot of cash. if they were to develop their own visual studio clone for android development it would cost a lot of money that they would have to eat in lower margins and lower stock price.
If Google has $5 Billion to invest in an off-shore wind farm project they have the money to put into Android development as well.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
If it encourages Oracle to abandon that truly awful Sun "wrap my packages in mislabeled RPM bundles with mislabeled RPM's" practice, and migrate to OpenJDK's far more stable and usable packaging and layout, I'd be all for it. Just as a hint, you don't need to include all the documentation inside the bundle. And you do _not_ need to compress RPM's.
Sun's tendency to insist on their own special sign-ins and wrappers, just to extract the RPM's, caused me and others I worked with to simply throw out Sun Java packaging and switch to IBM or OpenJDK wholesale. If you can't do the packaging right, why would we have confidence in the quality of your software?
I find TFA pointless. It basically says that Google won't be able to maintain a fork of Harmony (and only those bits which are actually required for Android!) without IBM's help, while at the same time stating that Google already has more people working on OpenJDK than IBM has.
Inexplicable.
The problem is that manufacturers lock down their phones (even Google does that, on their directly-branded models), so their bootloader won't accept unsigned OS images. Some manufacturers go even further and lock down applications installation.
Even if MeeGo is as open as it gets, it has all the mechanisms in place to become as closed as Android is if manufacturers so wish (see MeeGo's security framework). Nokia has already shown with the N900 that they won't lock their handsets, but other manufacturers might have a different vision. I hope that the development of a large "independent" application repository will encourage them not to.
Ellison won't just settle for money. He'll also want leverage with patent licensing - all he can get his arms around. The man is greed personified. Cutting a deal with him is almost as certain death as partnering with Microsoft. It's an asymetric suicide pact.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
... nothing to see here.
Fucking non-story.
I believe the fee I mentioned for the Ovi store has an additional caveat - that you also have Nokia sign the binary. I believe that as long as you're shipping a signed binary (not self-signed) everything is copacetic.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
The article reads as if chicken little wrote it.
Nokia has already shown with the N900 that they won't lock their handsets
You can't assume that at all. The ADP1 from Google wasn't locked down in any way either - it wasn't career locked, it came with full root access out of the box, and unlocked bootloader allowing you to load an OS of your choice on the device; and even change the bootloader.
That's not my issue at all, but it seems to be yours. To me Sun was a business and corporation and in order to survive they needed to offer something at a cost others were willing to pay for which would allow them to make a profit. The fact that Sun instead used billions of dollars to buy other companies didn't help them.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Each piece of the puzzle doesn't tell as much, but this combined with other Oracle behaviors more clearly indicates some underhanded behavior.
A confluence of questionable ethics.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Java is open source!
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
I've heard that elsewhere but don't know it. What I do know is that I spent almost $2000 for a Nokia monitor for graphics and photography and other than it's size it sucks. I got it instead of another because it got good reviews.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
From what I've heard from Nokia, it looks like they will provide the N9 [the successor of the N900] with the ability to switch at boot time between a "DRM" mode and a free mode; while in the free mode, you won't be able to access DRM-restricted media. How this will be accomplished exactly I don't know, and that's what effectively scares me a bit.