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US Supreme Court Expected Political Ad Transparency

T Murphy writes "The Supreme Court, when ruling that corporate and union political donations were allowed under free speech, assumed the source of the donation would be disclosed immediately under current donation laws. Due to loopholes, this has not been the case, eliminating the hoped-for transparency the Supreme Court ruled to be vital to democracy. Justice Kennedy, who sided with the majority on the ruling, has been called naive for his expectation that there would be greater transparency. In the meantime, campaign spending for House candidates alone is expected to reach $1.5 billion."

50 of 617 comments (clear)

  1. Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Kennedy has always attempted to be a fair mediator between the left and right impulses on the Court. But he really blew it on this one. His attempt at moderation in this case has taken an already out-of-control problem and made it much worse. This ruling will ensure that individual citizens are forevermore completely and totally drowned out in our government by corporate interests and their puppet foundations/non-profits. It was almost that way *already*, but now the big interests won't even have to *try* to hide their bribery. And, thanks to this, nothing short of a Constitutional amendment will ever stop corporate control of the government now (and good luck getting a 2/3's majority in a Congress owned by those corporations). Thanks Anthony!

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Did you read the same Citizens United ruling that I did? Did you read then Solicitor General Kagan's argument that basically said "Yeah, this legislation gives the Feds the power to ban books, but that's irrelevant because we would never do such a thing."? The 1st amendment says plainly enough that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. The old law prohibited Citizens United from publishing a film about a political candidate within a certain timeframe preceding a Federal election. Such a law is not compatible with the 1st amendment if free speech is to have any meaning.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by mc6809e · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This ruling will ensure that individual citizens are forevermore completely and totally drowned out in our government by corporate interests and their puppet foundations/non-profits.

      The individual citizen is always going to be drowned out in a democracy. The biggest gang wins. That what Democracy is.

      Very few people have won elections without the help of large groups. People must form large groups to get anywhere. As a legal convenience, these groups become corporations by incorporating.

      The AARP is a corporation. The NEA is a corporation. The AFL/CIO is a corporation. The NAACP is a corporation. They're all groups of like-minded people that would be nothing if they couldn't act together (and spend together) as a unit.

    3. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So free speech only applies to selected bodies? Unions can exercise all the political exertion they want but corporations can't?

      Some corporations can. The people who are outraged over Citizens United never found the time to complain when the for-profit New York Times was endorsing political candidates.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Kagan said no such thing.

      McCain-Feingold kept "**corporations** and **unions** from using their __general treasury funds__ to make an "electioneering communication" or for "independent expenditures," defined as speech that expressly advocates the election or defeat of a candidate and that is made independently of a candidate's campaign."

      The Supreme Court said that corporations and unions must be treated as individuals. This is a radical extension of corporate power that is almost unknown in the rest of the world, and certainly something our Founders would be shocked to find.

    5. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by toastar · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Meh....

      If it weren't for anonymous political speech we wouldn't have the Federalist papers.

    6. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by mc6809e · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Did you read the same Citizens United ruling that I did? Did you read then Solicitor General Kagan's argument that basically said "Yeah, this legislation gives the Feds the power to ban books, but that's irrelevant because we would never do such a thing."? The 1st amendment says plainly enough that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. The old law prohibited Citizens United from publishing a film about a political candidate within a certain timeframe preceding a Federal election. Such a law is not compatible with the 1st amendment if free speech is to have any meaning.

      I laughed when I learned that Micheal Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11M was used to attack the old law. Under the old law, Fahrenheit could have been banned during the 30 days before the 2004 election as a form of electioneering.

      It wasn't banned, of course, and that made arguing against the old law even easier because it suggested that the state could pick and choose what speech to ban and what speed to allow and that created a fear that the state under the old law would manipulate the political conversation.

    7. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by toastar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >

      The Supreme Court said that corporations and unions must be treated as individuals. This is a radical extension of corporate power that is almost unknown in the rest of the world, and certainly something our Founders would be shocked to find.

      Just because people chose to exercise their right to assemble into a group, does not mean they have to give up their other rights. The Corporation only has the powers of the individuals that own it.

    8. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Saishuuheiki · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is you're assuming the corporations are controlled by a large group.

      I'm sure that in some cases, if not most, these decisions are ultimately made by one or a few with all the power of the many. Just because a corporation is composed of thousands of workers or owned by thousands of investors doesn't mean that these people have any control. Moreover, most of these corporations are not formed for political purposes or around political ideas.

      I'd be surprised if I read a story of any of these million dollar corporations holding a vote amongst shareholders whether and to whom they should donate a political contribution.

    9. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, actually she did. Start on page 64. She is arguing that the law DOES cover books but you don't need to worry about it because the Government has never tried to regulate books and if it did there would be grounds for a legal challenge. You'll forgive me if I don't find that argument very compelling.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    10. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by sckeener · · Score: 3, Insightful

      which makes me wish the Supreme Court hadn't also given companies the same rights as individual citizens. It is like they can have it both ways. At the heart a company is an idea and you can't throw an idea in jail. You can penalize it and put CEOs or more likely peons in jail, but you can't just close it down for yelling fire in a crowded theater.

      --
      "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
    11. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Arctech · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The individual citizen is always going to be drowned out in a democracy. The biggest gang wins. That what Democracy is.

      There's a saying that goes, "Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."

    12. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by blackraven14250 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Endorsing a candidate is fundamentally different from having the ability to run billions of dollars in ads, especially when the endorsement says "THE NEW YORK TIMES ENDORSES X CANDIDATE" and the ads say "Paid for by random mysterious group #50,982".

    13. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by capnchicken · · Score: 3, Interesting
      --
      A libertarian shat on my carpet once. Claimed the free market would sort it out. -Ford Prefect(8777)
    14. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem isn't people banding together, the problem is that they're allowed to pump money into the system to push their agenda.

      I don't think we're going to have anything resembling a fair democracy until we restrict politicians to public funding.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    15. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by rhsanborn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not vote multiple times, but if the people of the assembled group wanted to base their vote on a collective decision, then there isn't anything that should stop such a thing. The campaign finance issue holds water in the same respect. The people of the group have allocated their resources and given control over those resources to a few elected leaders (the board). They trust the board to do good things with that money in order to act on their behalf and in their interest.

    16. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Informative

      ink that the difference is that the constitution also makes no mention of organizations or corporations has have ANY rights.

      That's completely irrelevant. Read the plain text of the 1st amendment: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech"

      What part of "shall make no law" is so hard to understand?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    17. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The New York Times is a for-profit corporation that's been endorsing political candidates for decades.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    18. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by mdarksbane · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Tell me any reasonable way to parse the difference between the two that is *not* incredibly open to political abuse. Tell me how to keep the regulatory structure immune from every political lobbying group pressuring the justice department. Tell me what justifies giving some giant faceless corporations (the New York Times, Fox News, Time Warner) the right to make political statements and not others.

      There is no clear line to draw and no clean way to draw it. This is why the first amendment exists - rather than risk creating a regulatory structure that is incredibly open to abuse, we open speech up to everyone and every thing and leave it up to the voter to parse out the bad speech.

    19. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The intent was that Congress would not be in the position of regulating speech.

      Why are you so afraid of unfettered speech anyway? Is your opinion of the American electorate so low that you think they need to be shielded from this speech and can't form their own opinions about it?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    20. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by jdpars · · Score: 4, Informative

      That used to be the case! A corporation, or really any group, was limited in the way it could fund a campaign. It could only give an amount equal to the limits of personal giving of each of its members, and they weren't allowed to give on their own outside of it. This SCOTUS ruling destroyed that!

    21. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by SiChemist · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is what the creators of our government thought about corporations.

    22. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by DJRumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A 'business' does not meet the definition of such a group. A political action group is specifically created to champion the political agenda of it's members and it makes perfect sense that these should have the ability to do so as their members expressly joined such groups for that purpose, and donated money to such groups for that purpose.

      A business on the other hand does not take it's employee's opinion into account when they spend corporate money on political action campaigns. I certainly can't tell my company where to spend it's money. I have no voice at all, other than taking a drastic step of leaving my job, and risking my own health and welfare to do so.

      The ruling was bad, on all fronts. It is not free speech for a corporation to use it's coffers to 'speak' for employees who in turn have no control over where that money goes.

      Not vote multiple times, but if the people of the assembled group wanted to base their vote on a collective decision, then there isn't anything that should stop such a thing. The campaign finance issue holds water in the same respect. The people of the group have allocated their resources and given control over those resources to a few elected leaders (the board). They trust the board to do good things with that money in order to act on their behalf and in their interest

    23. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by dasdrewid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's the point I was going to make.

      The problem is still with the organization of corporations. The management isn't at fault, because they're just the hired guns doing the will of the owners (stockholders). The stockholders aren't at fault because there's so many of them you could never apportion blame, and they can't know the ins-and-outs of every action taken by the corporation. Basically, no one is to blame (officially...when Target donates 150k to a politician the CEO likes, everyone knows exactly who to go after...but how're you gonna fire him? If more than 50% of the stock is owned by institutional investors who only trade based on price, and he continues to make the price better, you can't get rid of him...)

      --
      No trespassing. Violators will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
    24. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Steauengeglase · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, but NYT isn't handing candidates millions of dollars to flood hundreds of media outlets.

      The problem isn't one private entity giving their one word, but one private entity speaking as if it were a thousand voices in a thousand places.

      On the playground we called it cheating.

    25. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Homr+Zodyssey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Voting is not a "right", it is a function of democracy

      The 15th, 19th and 26th amendments to the US Constitution seem to disagree with you. Each of them begins with "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged".

      You are a moron.

      Oh...Troll...nevermind... sorry I fed you.

    26. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by bendodge · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But the NYT does speak far louder than other entities. It might as well be donating to the candidate when it provides them free services.

      On the playground we called it cheating.

      I cannot imagine how a playground analogy can be applied here. There is no playground parallel to mass media that I can think of./quote

      --
      The government can't save you.
    27. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Regular corporations would still not be permitted to donate to political influence activities.

      So my local grocery store isn't allowed to publish a flier detailing how the new zoning law will impact them and their customers unless they go through the hassle of setting up a separate corporation for this purpose?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    28. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A bigger problem is that money == votes. How did that happen? People see a TV ad and their brain shuts down? They become incapable of deciding for themselves because, hey! TV!

      In an ideal world, candidate spending wouldn't matter because voters wouldn't be influenced by it. We should keep that in mind as well, if we fixed that problem the problem of corporate spending on candidates just evaporates.

  2. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I call bullshit. The court knew exactly what it was doing and knew that loopholes big enough to drive a dump truck full of money through were in place.

  3. Re:This was obvious. by corbettw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When they made the ruling, I agreed with their judicial logic, but that was a case where very clearly the ruling was not in the good of the general population.

    The Supreme Court needs to concerns itself with protecting the rights of the individual, not the good of the general population. Otherwise we'll end up with a tyranny of the majority.

    --
    God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  4. simple fix by corbettw · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The problem is not corporate/union donations to individuals, the problem is one of transparency. Focus on that and on closing the "loopholes" mentioned in the summary, rather than beating your chests about the supposed unfairness surrounding the act of individuals joining together to pool their resources for political change. Anything else is merely a red herring.

    --
    God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    1. Re:simple fix by corbettw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I see, so you think it's OK to limit someone's freedoms because they have more wealth than you? Please explain how that's right or fair. And please don't bother with inane utilitarian concepts of "the greater good". You aren't Jeremy Bentham and you're not going to make a more cogent argument than he ever could.

      I'm going to say this again, and more clearly and forcefully: it is immoral to trample on one person's rights because you think other people will be somehow better off if you do so. The fact of the matter is, those people will not be better off as we all suffer when rights are sacrificed for convenience or good feelings.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  5. Easy fix by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Contributions may only come from registered voters (and with the current $2000 limit)
    That would exclude money from corporations.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    1. Re:Easy fix by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 3, Informative

      The problem isn't even direct donations to a candidate, really.

      It's that, for example, Microsoft could set up a shell group called "Concerned Citizens for Software Freedom" and funnel money into it to buy a million political ads that trashed a candidate running against a candidate they liked.

    2. Re:Easy fix by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Easier fix: all funding must come from the gov't, in equal (and relatively small) amounts for each candidate. Offer each candidate who gets the required number of signatures to be on the ballot, a set amount of TV time, a set amount of ad money, and tell everyone else to butt the fuck out of the process.

      As long as you can win by drowning your opponent in money, the system is fucked.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    3. Re:Easy fix by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Microsoft could set up a shell group called "Concerned Citizens for Software Freedom" and funnel money into it to buy a million political ads that trashed a candidate running against a candidate they liked.

      Yeah, so? Why are you so worried about speech?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:Easy fix by mdarksbane · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And this is incredibly more dangerous than, say, Michael Bloomberg funneling money into "Americans for Safe Streets" and running a bunch of political ads...

      http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527cmtedetail_donors.php?ein=263516710&cycle=2008

      All those opposed to Citizens United are saying is that only the rich should be able to buy free speech.

  6. Re:This was obvious. by epiphani · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just for reference:

    The Canadian election system limits campaign spending to roughly $20 million per major party. The full amount of money allowed in our election is somewhere around $60 million. It costs more to actually run the polling booths. We have a population roughly one tenth of the US. Taking a rough stab at it, you're spending $2.5 Billion for your midterm elections. Or about four times the amount per capita as us.

    Additionally, in our system, a large percentage of that is publicly funded. And the maximum corporate donation is $1000. We have problems with corporate interests and lobbyists in Canada. You guys don't have a problem with it: you're OWNED by corporate interests.

    --
    .
  7. Re:Who cares? by mea37 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Perhaps you're not aware, but the Supreme Court didn't "make [a law] that depend[s] upon [an]OTHER law". The Supreme Court doesn't make laws, period.

    The Court did apparently make assumptions about the implications of a particular interpretation, but that's pretty much unavoidable. It speaks to the excessive complexity of our body of laws that they could not predict the outcome correctly.

    While I disagree with the Court's ruling, the I do not find such severe fault as you do with the specific detail of meaning (but apparently failing to say in a binding way) "...following the same rules as everyone else".

  8. Re:Who cares? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I agree that this goes beyond naive. It is almost unbelievable that the Supreme Court would expect greater transparency where it is not explicitly required.

    The only thing that makes it believable is the rash of other outrageous -- I will go so far as to say stupid -- Supreme Court decisions recently. I won't go into those, but even so I suspect the older members of the Supreme Court of gradually increasing senility, and the newer members of not having properly studied history... in addition to being overly-politically-motivated. Properly speaking, politics should carry no weight in court decisions. I know that is an idealistic dream, but still that is the ideal.

    The thing that makes this ruling by the Supreme Court so outrageous on its face is that corporations simply don't have "rights". They have the legal privilege of acting in business matters as a person. That is all. They do not have a "right" to vote, they do not have a "right" to bear arms, they do not have a "right" to free speech! Sure, individuals within corporations have the right of free speech, but that is not the same thing, and restricting corporate donations does not infringe on that right.

  9. Re:This was obvious. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Informative

    No, it's called corporate oligarchy.

  10. Re:This was obvious. by tbannist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You spelled "plutocracy" incorrectly.

    Increasingly, it looks like the U.S. is a republic in name only. These groups spend money on advertising because they believe it's effective and they are probably right. Effectively, the United States is allowing it's wealthiest citizens to buy the laws they favor.

    --
    Fanatically anti-fanatical
  11. Alito: "Not True": TRUE by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Back in January 2010, Obama gave the State of the Union right after the Court handed down the Citizens United decision. Obama told Congress, with several of the Supremes sitting in the front row, that the decision would allow foreign corporations to influence US elections, which most Americans still realize is a terrible development. Justice Alito, who had just decided in the majority to allow corporations "free speech" by spending unlimited money in US political campaigning, was mad: he angrily mouthed "not true". The corporate mass media attacked Obama for "picking on the justices" by warning Congress and "embarrassing" the court, but of course failed to examine whether it was true.

    Less than a year later, we see it was totally true. We see that foreign corporations have invested huge amounts of money campaigning in the 2010 election. Republican candidates have gotten hundreds of $millions spent to elect them, sponsored by corporations including many foreign ones. The "US" Chamber of Commerce (Inc.) collects money from lots of foreign corporations, especially Indian ones that want US jobs shipped there, foreign banks like Credit Suisse and HSBC that want financial reform repealed, and even corporations owned by foreign kings, like the Emir of Bahrain. Foreign kings are spending more in US election campaigns than US citizens.

    Whether you think that's OK or not (it is very not OK), Alito was totally wrong. And a jerk about it. Not surprising, since Alito was installed by Bush. Alito swore in his Senate confirmation hearings that he would respect established law, but his Citizens United decision overturned lots of established law, went against the basic understanding that corporations are not people, and recklessly unleashed foreign corporate power on US election campaigns.

    He should be impeached. Then he'll be free to skip the State of the Union the way he plans to from now on because he can't stand criticism of his abominable rulings.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  12. Corporate personhood by bouldin · · Score: 3, Informative

    Agreed, the real problem here is corporate personhood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood).

    Businesses have something approaching the full rights of a human being, except, as the quote goes "They (corporations) have no soul to save and they have no body to incarcerate."

    Combine this with the ideas of limited liability, proprietary knowledge, and the common practice of boards of directors being friends with the executives they appoint, and what you have is a class of corporate management run amok with little or no accountability to shareholders. Management has access to billions of dollars to spend towards their own interests, which in many cases are not the interests of the shareholders.

    That said, I believe the government does have the authority to dissolve corporations, so a repeat felon corporation could be dissolved or fined into non-existance, although I don't know of any time this has happened before. The US guidelines to sentencing organizations (http://www.ussc.gov/2009guid/CHAP8.htm) mention fining an exclusively criminal organization of all its assets, but I see no mention of dissolving repeat offenders. Maybe someone else can chime in here.

  13. Re:Who cares? by Obfuscant · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The thing that makes this ruling by the Supreme Court so outrageous on its face is that corporations simply don't have "rights". They have the legal privilege of acting in business matters as a person. That is all.

    Corporations, as an entity made up of people, have just as many rights to speech as any other "entity made up of people". Trade unions, for example.

    If the National Education Association can dump tons of money into campaigns, and the SEIU (Oregon state employee union), and the UAW, then so should GM and other corporations be able to do so.

    We currently have an incumbent who is painting his opponent as "bought and paid for" because his campaign got a few thousand from a company while the rest of his money came in $100 and similar donations from a large number of people. The incumbent, however, is backed by many of the large unions and has gotten the vast majority of his money from them. Bought and paid for, he says?

    Now, you may claim that the unions are speaking with the voice of the members, but that is far from true. They speak with the voice of the leadership. The members are lucky if they can get their politically-based dues back without repercussions.

  14. Re:Who cares? by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Insightful
    You're resting on the assumption that all groupings of people are created equal.

    Far from it. That is why I did not say one word about voluntary collaborations of people formed for specifically political purposes.

    Unions are, for the most part, involuntary groupings formed based on employment or occupation, having no political purpose behind them. No, "collective bargaining" is not a political purpose, it is a commercial one.

    ... and in particular an individual's right to expression cannot be exercised by leveraging corporate assets to which he or she might have access.

    Then the same rules should apply to an individual who has access to union dues. Those are just as much "corporate assets" as "company money", and in many cases less so. If I own a company then those corporate assets are, indeed, mine.

    Each corporation has a stated purpose for existing ...

    Just as each union has.

    ... its assets are held to be used only in acceptable ways to advance that purpose,

    That's your opinion, but not the law. I suggest you contact Ben and Jerry's and tell them that their donations to civic causes are not allowed because they do not fall within the scope of "ice cream business". Or Progressive Insurance, which has that name not because they sell progressive insurance.

    ... and the government has every right and interest in constraining what ways are acceptable.

    Again, your opinion. In my opinion, the government has no right, and indeed no Constitutional authority, to tell me that I cannot spend the corporate assets of a company I own in any way I see fit. And for the potential pedant, I'll add "that is legal for any other citizen to spend his money."

  15. Re:Who cares? by Obfuscant · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Corporations with "freedom of religious expression" make me a little scared (could be an interesting end run around civil rights legislation), ...

    How so? Do you understand that there are corporations that are based on religion operations? How does the freedom of expression of a corporation in any way limit your civil rights?

    It's not a big logical step from there to "Corporations have the right to bear arms". That's a scary idea.

    How, exactly, does a "corporation" bear arms? Do you mean the people working at a corporation? Yes, they still have their individual rights. They do not lose their inalienable rights when they are hired.

    Do you mean "bear arms as part of the corporate operation"? Briggs and Wells Fargo and other armored car services come to mind as corporations that "bear arms" in that sense. Do those corporations scare you? I don't believe that the individuals in that corporation bear arms in violation to laws applicable to individuals, but I can't testify to that. I'm rarely scared by a passing fellow with a gun and a moneybag. YMMV.

    Or do you mean the corporation can "bear arms" in some other way? The Remington corporation comes to mind as a corporation that "bears arms" in a generic way -- boxes and boxes and boxes of guns sitting in warehouses. So too, Walmart, K-Mart, Bi-Mart, Gander Mountain, and any other retail corporation that stocks them.

    Slippery slope arguments are often silly and convoluted, but in this case it's really *not* a huge jump from "Corporations have *this* Constitutional Right" to "Corporations have all Constitutional rights". One really does imply the other.

    I am most disturbed not by the idea that corporations have the rights, but the idea that it is a "slippery slope" to think that having one right means one has them all. Yes, having one right means one has them all. That's part of them being "inalienable".

    ...(I mean, they're not cognizant sent entities with a single opinion),...

    It is a rare human being who has "a single opinion", or even unchangeable opinions. If we make a "unified, consistent set of opinions" a litmus test for having rights, we've removed any concept of "inalienable" or even "rights".

    And, if we make "unified opinion" a litmus test for "corporate" rights, we eliminate trade unions from the playing field of political speech, since the members of such unions rarely, if ever, have a single opinion about any political action.

  16. Re:Who cares? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Anecdotal, but my mom was unable to get her dues back from the Washington State Teacher's Union, when she opposed their political spending.

  17. Re:Who cares? by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Informative

    I agree that corporations and unions should be treated the same for the purposes of political donations. However I think you will find that all but one union has revenues of less that $20M/yr and the vast majority can only dream of revenues in excess of $1M/yr. The one union with revenues in exess of $20M/yr rakes in $175M/yr which in the grand scheme of things is peanuts. The notion that they can compete on an equal footing with corporate donations in a $1.5B campaign is laughable, the average US CEO's remuneration of $8.5M dwarfs the yearly revenue of all but a handfull of unions.

    Note: The source for the union figures is the US DOL, they have a web app where you can look these things up but I used my fragile memory since I can't be bothered finding the link.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.