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US Supreme Court Expected Political Ad Transparency

T Murphy writes "The Supreme Court, when ruling that corporate and union political donations were allowed under free speech, assumed the source of the donation would be disclosed immediately under current donation laws. Due to loopholes, this has not been the case, eliminating the hoped-for transparency the Supreme Court ruled to be vital to democracy. Justice Kennedy, who sided with the majority on the ruling, has been called naive for his expectation that there would be greater transparency. In the meantime, campaign spending for House candidates alone is expected to reach $1.5 billion."

110 of 617 comments (clear)

  1. Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Kennedy has always attempted to be a fair mediator between the left and right impulses on the Court. But he really blew it on this one. His attempt at moderation in this case has taken an already out-of-control problem and made it much worse. This ruling will ensure that individual citizens are forevermore completely and totally drowned out in our government by corporate interests and their puppet foundations/non-profits. It was almost that way *already*, but now the big interests won't even have to *try* to hide their bribery. And, thanks to this, nothing short of a Constitutional amendment will ever stop corporate control of the government now (and good luck getting a 2/3's majority in a Congress owned by those corporations). Thanks Anthony!

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by FatSean · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Something tells me that Kennedy is the only Justice who didn't realize the loopholes existed.

      --
      Blar.
    2. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Did you read the same Citizens United ruling that I did? Did you read then Solicitor General Kagan's argument that basically said "Yeah, this legislation gives the Feds the power to ban books, but that's irrelevant because we would never do such a thing."? The 1st amendment says plainly enough that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. The old law prohibited Citizens United from publishing a film about a political candidate within a certain timeframe preceding a Federal election. Such a law is not compatible with the 1st amendment if free speech is to have any meaning.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    3. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by mc6809e · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This ruling will ensure that individual citizens are forevermore completely and totally drowned out in our government by corporate interests and their puppet foundations/non-profits.

      The individual citizen is always going to be drowned out in a democracy. The biggest gang wins. That what Democracy is.

      Very few people have won elections without the help of large groups. People must form large groups to get anywhere. As a legal convenience, these groups become corporations by incorporating.

      The AARP is a corporation. The NEA is a corporation. The AFL/CIO is a corporation. The NAACP is a corporation. They're all groups of like-minded people that would be nothing if they couldn't act together (and spend together) as a unit.

    4. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So free speech only applies to selected bodies? Unions can exercise all the political exertion they want but corporations can't?

      Some corporations can. The people who are outraged over Citizens United never found the time to complain when the for-profit New York Times was endorsing political candidates.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    5. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Kagan said no such thing.

      McCain-Feingold kept "**corporations** and **unions** from using their __general treasury funds__ to make an "electioneering communication" or for "independent expenditures," defined as speech that expressly advocates the election or defeat of a candidate and that is made independently of a candidate's campaign."

      The Supreme Court said that corporations and unions must be treated as individuals. This is a radical extension of corporate power that is almost unknown in the rest of the world, and certainly something our Founders would be shocked to find.

    6. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by toastar · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Meh....

      If it weren't for anonymous political speech we wouldn't have the Federalist papers.

    7. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by mc6809e · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Did you read the same Citizens United ruling that I did? Did you read then Solicitor General Kagan's argument that basically said "Yeah, this legislation gives the Feds the power to ban books, but that's irrelevant because we would never do such a thing."? The 1st amendment says plainly enough that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. The old law prohibited Citizens United from publishing a film about a political candidate within a certain timeframe preceding a Federal election. Such a law is not compatible with the 1st amendment if free speech is to have any meaning.

      I laughed when I learned that Micheal Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11M was used to attack the old law. Under the old law, Fahrenheit could have been banned during the 30 days before the 2004 election as a form of electioneering.

      It wasn't banned, of course, and that made arguing against the old law even easier because it suggested that the state could pick and choose what speech to ban and what speed to allow and that created a fear that the state under the old law would manipulate the political conversation.

    8. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by toastar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >

      The Supreme Court said that corporations and unions must be treated as individuals. This is a radical extension of corporate power that is almost unknown in the rest of the world, and certainly something our Founders would be shocked to find.

      Just because people chose to exercise their right to assemble into a group, does not mean they have to give up their other rights. The Corporation only has the powers of the individuals that own it.

    9. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Saishuuheiki · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is you're assuming the corporations are controlled by a large group.

      I'm sure that in some cases, if not most, these decisions are ultimately made by one or a few with all the power of the many. Just because a corporation is composed of thousands of workers or owned by thousands of investors doesn't mean that these people have any control. Moreover, most of these corporations are not formed for political purposes or around political ideas.

      I'd be surprised if I read a story of any of these million dollar corporations holding a vote amongst shareholders whether and to whom they should donate a political contribution.

    10. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, actually she did. Start on page 64. She is arguing that the law DOES cover books but you don't need to worry about it because the Government has never tried to regulate books and if it did there would be grounds for a legal challenge. You'll forgive me if I don't find that argument very compelling.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    11. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by sckeener · · Score: 3, Insightful

      which makes me wish the Supreme Court hadn't also given companies the same rights as individual citizens. It is like they can have it both ways. At the heart a company is an idea and you can't throw an idea in jail. You can penalize it and put CEOs or more likely peons in jail, but you can't just close it down for yelling fire in a crowded theater.

      --
      "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
    12. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So following your logic, rich people can form corporations and 'vote' multiple times? That seems ok by you?

      Until the 'owners' of a corporation can be imprisoned for crimes they are not equal to 'citizens' and should not get the same level of rights.

      The individuals involved already have their rights, they don't get to buy multiple votes.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    13. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Arctech · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The individual citizen is always going to be drowned out in a democracy. The biggest gang wins. That what Democracy is.

      There's a saying that goes, "Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."

    14. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by blackraven14250 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Endorsing a candidate is fundamentally different from having the ability to run billions of dollars in ads, especially when the endorsement says "THE NEW YORK TIMES ENDORSES X CANDIDATE" and the ads say "Paid for by random mysterious group #50,982".

    15. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by capnchicken · · Score: 3, Interesting
      --
      A libertarian shat on my carpet once. Claimed the free market would sort it out. -Ford Prefect(8777)
    16. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem isn't people banding together, the problem is that they're allowed to pump money into the system to push their agenda.

      I don't think we're going to have anything resembling a fair democracy until we restrict politicians to public funding.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    17. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by rhsanborn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not vote multiple times, but if the people of the assembled group wanted to base their vote on a collective decision, then there isn't anything that should stop such a thing. The campaign finance issue holds water in the same respect. The people of the group have allocated their resources and given control over those resources to a few elected leaders (the board). They trust the board to do good things with that money in order to act on their behalf and in their interest.

    18. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nobody is arguing that corporations can't buy their influence. The problem is the lack of disclosure.

      Union spending is pretty clear on disclosure, it comes from the members. Where does Americans for Prosperity's funding? that's the problem.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    19. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by OzPeter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not vote multiple times, but if the people of the assembled group wanted to base their vote on a collective decision, then there isn't anything that should stop such a thing.

      Did you just invent unions?

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    20. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Informative

      ink that the difference is that the constitution also makes no mention of organizations or corporations has have ANY rights.

      That's completely irrelevant. Read the plain text of the 1st amendment: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech"

      What part of "shall make no law" is so hard to understand?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    21. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The New York Times is a for-profit corporation that's been endorsing political candidates for decades.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    22. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by mdarksbane · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Tell me any reasonable way to parse the difference between the two that is *not* incredibly open to political abuse. Tell me how to keep the regulatory structure immune from every political lobbying group pressuring the justice department. Tell me what justifies giving some giant faceless corporations (the New York Times, Fox News, Time Warner) the right to make political statements and not others.

      There is no clear line to draw and no clean way to draw it. This is why the first amendment exists - rather than risk creating a regulatory structure that is incredibly open to abuse, we open speech up to everyone and every thing and leave it up to the voter to parse out the bad speech.

    23. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The intent was that Congress would not be in the position of regulating speech.

      Why are you so afraid of unfettered speech anyway? Is your opinion of the American electorate so low that you think they need to be shielded from this speech and can't form their own opinions about it?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    24. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >>>that individual citizens are forevermore

      Don't exaggerate. The Supreme Court is free to change their mind. They once ruled that segregation was legal, and then later changed their minds. Also take heat in the words of Thomas Jefferson (founder of the Democrat-republicans):

      "The question whether the judges are invested with exclusive authority to decide on the constitutionality of a law has been heretofore a subject of consideration with me in the exercise of official duties. Certainly there is not a word in the Constitution which has given that power to them more than to the Executive or Legislative branches." --Thomas Jefferson to W. H. Torrance, 1815. ME 14:303

      "But the Chief Justice says, 'There must be an ultimate arbiter somewhere.' True, there must; but does that prove it is either party? The ultimate arbiter is the people of the Union, assembled by their deputies in convention, at the call of Congress or of two-thirds of the States. Let them decide to which they mean to give an authority claimed by two of their organs. And it has been the peculiar wisdom and felicity of our Constitution, to have provided this peaceable appeal, where that of other nations is at once to force." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823. ME 15:451

      The STATES are the ultimate deciders.
      If they don't like this decision and the Court does not change its mind,
      they have the otion to amend the Constitution and remove donations from corporations.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    25. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by jdpars · · Score: 4, Informative

      That used to be the case! A corporation, or really any group, was limited in the way it could fund a campaign. It could only give an amount equal to the limits of personal giving of each of its members, and they weren't allowed to give on their own outside of it. This SCOTUS ruling destroyed that!

    26. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by fotbr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The same part that has people confused about "shall not be infringed".

      People don't know what "no" means anymore; from spoiled kids to congress, "no" is just one of those words that means "you can probably do it anyway".

    27. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by SiChemist · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is what the creators of our government thought about corporations.

    28. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To clarify - in the situation we have today, the collective political power of the corporation's employees (which can number in the tens or hundreds of thousands) and to an extent its customers (in that the customers are ultimately funding the exercise) is wielded by the relatively few people who own the corporation. This not only gives them disproportionate political power, but in influencing the political decisions of its employees it effectively reduces the political influence of those same employees.

    29. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Informative

      Until the 'owners' of a corporation can be imprisoned for crimes they are not equal to 'citizens' and should not get the same level of rights.

      Actually, if a corporation commits crimes, the CEO, Officers and the BOARD of Directors should be held criminally responsible. I'm not talking about rogue employees, I'm talking about corporate policy and repeated actions.

      Additionally, one MUST remember that Corporations are creations of the State. Giving them any "rights" diminishes the liberties of citizens and the people. THIS is my beef with corporatism (not capitalism) of today.

      Until we hold people accountable for their responsibility and fiduciary duties, nothing is going to change.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    30. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem here is when a corporation masquerades as a folksy "grass roots" organization when distributing their speech.

      Even if they do that, why exactly is it a problem?

      Under the current system, you could write a satanist propoganda, and publish under the name of "The Association of Citizens to Elect Mitt Romney". Furthermore, you can do this right before an election, so that the truth of the identity of the author is not revealed until long after the point at which it matters.

      So what? We have free speech in this country. That includes anonymous speech. Anonymous political speech has been around in this country since the Federalist papers and has a long history of being upheld by SCOTUS regardless of

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    31. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >>>Just because people chose to exercise their right to assemble into a group, does not mean they have to give up their other rights. The Corporation only has the powers of the individuals that own it.

      You are 100% correct.

      However just because people form a group, doesn't mean the group acquires personhood. For example Microsoft employees retain their rights, but the actual microsoft, which is as inanimate as a building, should have no rights. If the owner of MS wants to speak let him speak as *himself* while the building remains silent. If the owner wants to hire lobbyists, let him hire them using his OWN money, while MS money is forbidden from hiring lobbyists.

      Just because you join a group, does not mean you lose your rights - you can still speak, et cetera.
      But neither does it mean the corporation suddenly becomes Human.
      Non-humans (rocks, trees, buildings) don't have rights.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    32. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >>>if the people of the assembled group wanted to base their vote on a collective decision, then there isn't anything that should stop such a thing.

      But that is still Individuals exercising individual, Human rights.
      That doesn't mean the corporation should have the right to cast ~100,000 votes on behalf of its employees.
      Neither should said corporation have the right to hire lobbyists to speak on behalf of its employees.

      If they employees want to hire lobbyists, let them do it on an individual basis, while the corporation remain as silent as a rock, tree, or building.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    33. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by DJRumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A 'business' does not meet the definition of such a group. A political action group is specifically created to champion the political agenda of it's members and it makes perfect sense that these should have the ability to do so as their members expressly joined such groups for that purpose, and donated money to such groups for that purpose.

      A business on the other hand does not take it's employee's opinion into account when they spend corporate money on political action campaigns. I certainly can't tell my company where to spend it's money. I have no voice at all, other than taking a drastic step of leaving my job, and risking my own health and welfare to do so.

      The ruling was bad, on all fronts. It is not free speech for a corporation to use it's coffers to 'speak' for employees who in turn have no control over where that money goes.

      Not vote multiple times, but if the people of the assembled group wanted to base their vote on a collective decision, then there isn't anything that should stop such a thing. The campaign finance issue holds water in the same respect. The people of the group have allocated their resources and given control over those resources to a few elected leaders (the board). They trust the board to do good things with that money in order to act on their behalf and in their interest

    34. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by dasdrewid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's the point I was going to make.

      The problem is still with the organization of corporations. The management isn't at fault, because they're just the hired guns doing the will of the owners (stockholders). The stockholders aren't at fault because there's so many of them you could never apportion blame, and they can't know the ins-and-outs of every action taken by the corporation. Basically, no one is to blame (officially...when Target donates 150k to a politician the CEO likes, everyone knows exactly who to go after...but how're you gonna fire him? If more than 50% of the stock is owned by institutional investors who only trade based on price, and he continues to make the price better, you can't get rid of him...)

      --
      No trespassing. Violators will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
    35. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by yariv · · Score: 2, Interesting

      if the people of the assembled group wanted to base their vote on a collective decision, then there isn't anything that should stop such a thing.

      If people wanted to vote through the group, there is something that will stop it, however. I'm not an American, so I might be wrong regarding your laws, but you can't give your vote to the corporation and send it to vote for everyone. This right is not transferable. It would make sense that other rights, such as free speech, are also not transferable. If this was the case, you could do whatever you want, publish books and movies and so on, but corporations will not. I see no problem with this.

    36. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by camperslo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is getting results from spending small amounts of money. We're now in a situation where massive amounts have to be spent to bribe anyone.

      Clearly it is an uphill battle to take the corrupting influence of money out of the political process.
      Given the ineffectiveness of controls on the cash going in, perhaps the public could be better served and more quickly so by changes limiting where the cash can go. Do away with paid radio/tv political ads entirely.

      The broadcast industry has had major deregulation, some of it very harmful to the concept of stations serving the public interest. The FCC should take steps to diversify ownership of broadcast stations, and to have licensees that live within the coverage area of stations they own. Stations make plenty of money as it is. There's no reason why they can't operate with NO paid political advertising, carrying only non-paid public service broadcasts informing the public of issues and candidates of concern to their audience. The current situation with sometimes unknown interests outside the community of license controlling the information (or more often disinformation) flow is totally unacceptable.

      The old method where broadcasters have no mandatory amount of public service time, nor a cap on the amount of ad time, should be returned. Broadcasters would commit to numbers for both in their license applications, and report on both for the prior license period. As before, two weeks of the year of the licensees choosing would be exempt from the self-imposed limits. (typically they were holiday and election ad periods). Stations doing a poor job with either too little public service, or too much advertising would be in an unfavorable light should someone else wish to protest license renewal. In theory, with deregulation, market forces (competition) was suppose to naturally lead broadcasters to do the right things, but that has been a dismal failure. We got infomercials, ad time going from around 10 minutes an hour to 18 or 20, many of the public service announcements run in the middle of the night. Much news on local newscasts is actually of a non-local nature or duplicated on other stations under common ownership.

      The dismal situation with station operating and ownership has many far reaching effects on society.
      Quality entertainment programming is less viable with so many ads, the public has become more ignorant, large scale commercial interests are favored over local business, depth and diversity of news coverage has seriously suffered. People blogging on the net make contributions, but the net is not a substitute for funded transparent news operations. Indeed it is trivial to cook up a website to distribute misinformation or support others doing so.

      Broadcasters making a profit is fine, but the MUST be held to acting as trustees of the public interest. Their function is too important to allow the greed of anything goes for a profit to be allowed. Make broadcasters accountable to the people IN THE COMMUNITIES THEY ARE LICENSED TO.

    37. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Sprouticus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Endorsing a canidate in by DEFINITION transparent. You have the newspaper company saying who it endorses and why.

      I dont think anyone here has an issue with say....HP or Microsoft or BP or whomever running a commercial or renting newspaper space saying 'BP endorses this canidate because of X Y and Z. We do not like this other canidate because of A,B, and C.

      The problem comes with shadow organizations, who are funded indirectly. The answer to that is fairly simple. If you are a company which is a subsidary of another company, both company names must be exposed.

      Now, some people are saying that individuals should have to be exposed as well. This is where it gets sticky. Should a really rich guy have to disclose if he spends 5 million of his own money to create a shadow corp which then buys airtime and runs commercials and is 'issue' based?

        My gut instinct is to say no. He has a right to anonmyous free speech. But we already regulate speech somewhat with out election laws, so there has to be some middle ground. The fact that he is hiding behind a corporation instead of buying the advertising directly means he gives up some 1st amendment rights in my mind.

      Like all election laws, the best we can hope for is to curb the worst of the abuses. Short of government funded campaigns, you just cant expect money not to influence elections. But if you at least force corporations to be transparent in their actions you give the voter more informaiton on the source of the

    38. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Steauengeglase · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, but NYT isn't handing candidates millions of dollars to flood hundreds of media outlets.

      The problem isn't one private entity giving their one word, but one private entity speaking as if it were a thousand voices in a thousand places.

      On the playground we called it cheating.

    39. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Homr+Zodyssey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Voting is not a "right", it is a function of democracy

      The 15th, 19th and 26th amendments to the US Constitution seem to disagree with you. Each of them begins with "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged".

      You are a moron.

      Oh...Troll...nevermind... sorry I fed you.

    40. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Danse · · Score: 2, Informative

      The intent was that Congress would not be in the position of regulating speech.

      Why are you so afraid of unfettered speech anyway? Is your opinion of the American electorate so low that you think they need to be shielded from this speech and can't form their own opinions about it?

      I see no reason to allow corporations to have the ability to speak on political issues. The individuals of that corporation have that right. The corporation itself is simply a legal shield created by the government for the purpose of facilitating commerce, and as such should not have the rights of a person.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    41. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, if a corporation commits crimes, the CEO, Officers and the BOARD of Directors should be held criminally responsible. I'm not talking about rogue employees, I'm talking about corporate policy and repeated actions.

      Why should owners of the corporation be not liable?

      If you really want corporate behavior to change, you've got to re-link the investors (owners) with the actions (and consequences of those actions) done by the corporation.

      The way it stands now, corporate officers and directors are scapegoats for owners. This is one reason why they get paid such a ridiculous amount -- if the shit hits the fans, it's the officers and directors who are in the legal line of fire, while the owners merely take a hit to their portfolios.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    42. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Informative

      The argument isn't over what "shall make no law" means, it's over what "freedom of speech" means. The common assumption, and what the 1st Am. almost certainly means, is that freedom of speech is a right of individuals, not corporations.

      I don't give a good goddamn what was written over a century ago into a Supreme Court decision about a railroad company by a court clerk (who had, by an astonishing coincidence, a substantial financial interest in that same railroad company.) Corporations are not people, and they have no rights. They are legal fictions created and maintained on the suffrance of the government. Anyone who claims to love liberty but does not acknowledge this is a liar, ready and willing to sell his last shred of freedom and integrity to the highest bidder.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    43. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Indeed.

      Here's a fun question for people who think corporations have 'rights': Corporations have to have stated businesses purposes that are authorized by the state.

      The state can dissolve corporations that do not follow said purpose. In practice, they only do this to non-profits, as the stated purposes of for-profit businesses is generally 'make money', but in actuality they can do it to any corporation.

      What if the state refused to allow such corporations to exist that either a) stated they were for using raised money for political purposes, or b) used money for those purposes without stating it?

      The second is clearly allowed...the government can dissolve businesses that spend their money on anything outside the scope of a business. Try starting a corporation and having it pay for your vacation. You can't do that, so why would it be allowed to pay for political campaigning?

      Businesses have to spend money on businesses expenses, even if it's 'your' business. You want to do something with the money, the business has to pay you income or dividends or something, and then you can do it.

      As for the first, a business with the hypothetical goals of pushing an political agenda...well, firstly, such for-profit businesses don't exist, or at least aren't really the giant multi-national businesses that have injected so much money in our political process.

      But an argument could be made that, if they do have that as a business goal, then running political ads is a 'business expense'.

      Of course, governments don't have to approve business licenses in the first place. So could just decide not to allow any business with political goals they don't like.

      You fools see the problem of a government created entity having free speech rights? The government has power of life and death over corporations already, for pretty much any reason. The idea that a fictional entity the government creates has 'rights' the government can't infringe is sheer nonsense.

      Frankly, I'm wish Al Franken's bill would get considered again. It required businesses to get permission from all owners before doing political campaigning. (It is, after all, spending their money, and the internal structure of how a corporation operates is certainly subject to law.) Which would be hilariously impossible in a publicly-traded company.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    44. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      relatively few people who own the corporation

      I believe you mean 'run'. A lot of corporations are owned by a hell of a lot of people, aka, stockholders

      That's why I like Franken's bill, which required all owners of a corporations to agree before political campaigning, thus resulting it being functionally impossible for publicly-owned companies.

      And it's functionally impossible for a reason no one can argue with. If I own stock in a company, I clearly should get a say before they use my money for an expense that isn't slightly a 'business expense'. The company exist to make me money, period. All spending of the company should go towards that goal, period.

      Sadly, people managed to killed that bill.

      It's possible illegal anyway. Witness Murdoch asserting that he used News Corps as a personal piggy bank to make a million dollar donation to a friend.

      That's outright illegal, and in any sane universe ought to result in shareholders winning a lawsuit. Sadly, News Corps in incorporated in Delaware, not in a sane universe.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    45. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In today's world, an integral part of a democracy is the rule of law. And if the law says that sheep can't be dinner, then it shouldn't matter how many wolves there are because there's not going to be a vote.

      Of course there's going to be a vote - a vote on laws (or rather, on politicians who write laws). If you have enough wolves, the law will just say that sheep are dinner.

    46. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, corporations are well-defined legal entities. Their purpose is to make money, and nothing else.

      You have no idea what you are talking about. The Sierra Club is a corporation. The township that I live in is a corporation. Neither of them have "making money" as a goal. Money is a means to an end for both organizations but it is not the final objective.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    47. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh, I'm for the corporate death penalty too. Seize all assets, auction them off, use the funds to pay liabilities and put the rest in a victim compensation fund.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    48. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by AigariusDebian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is actually all about money.

      Imagine party A plans to make a law that would tax the ultra-wealthy more and give some tax breaks to middle and low income earners, but party B would like to do the opposite.

      A few hundred millionaires can easily communicate and coordinate to make a company and write a 5 million USD check each to campaign against party A so that the law is stopped, because they know that this is less than half of what this law will cost them each year. And they can easily afford doing that.

      The couple hundred million people with low to medium income on the other hand have it much harder to organize and can't really afford to make companies or donate much to politics, because they need to put food on the table.

      Citizen United ruling makes it possible for a few hundred millionaires to out-spend and out-campaign the few hundred million other people. It allows 0.01% of people the power to freely and anonymously manipulate and basically buy the political process against the interests of the overwhelming majority of 99.99% of the population. That is NOT right.

    49. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Danse · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dude, the freedom of speech is not the same thing as the freedom to lie about your identity.

      So you don't think that anonymous political speech is protected by the 1st amendment? Why aren't you posting under your real name then?

      There's a difference between anonymous speech and deceptive speech. I have the right to free speech, but that doesn't give me the right to slander someone. Nor does it give me the right to lie to a judge or other state representative. Why should a corporation be allowed to be involved in politics at all? Every owner of the corporation has that individual right, but the corporation itself is a government-created entity that exists only as a liability shield for the shareholders of the corporation. I see no reason why that should give it the right to take actions to influence the political decisions of the country.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    50. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by bendodge · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But the NYT does speak far louder than other entities. It might as well be donating to the candidate when it provides them free services.

      On the playground we called it cheating.

      I cannot imagine how a playground analogy can be applied here. There is no playground parallel to mass media that I can think of./quote

      --
      The government can't save you.
    51. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Regular corporations would still not be permitted to donate to political influence activities.

      So my local grocery store isn't allowed to publish a flier detailing how the new zoning law will impact them and their customers unless they go through the hassle of setting up a separate corporation for this purpose?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    52. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A bigger problem is that money == votes. How did that happen? People see a TV ad and their brain shuts down? They become incapable of deciding for themselves because, hey! TV!

      In an ideal world, candidate spending wouldn't matter because voters wouldn't be influenced by it. We should keep that in mind as well, if we fixed that problem the problem of corporate spending on candidates just evaporates.

    53. Re:Kennedy's folly and sad legacy by trawg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you ever talk to a lawyer about a contract in which the other party has left a clause in there that says "oh, this is just something we need to keep in there, but don't worry - we'd never actually USE it", I guarantee your lawyer will advise you that if that's what they're saying, then you should get that clause removed. Because if they're saying now they're never going to draw on it, but they want to leave it in anyway, it's because one day, they want to have the ability to use it.

      Our lawyers have always advised us in contract negotiations to keep an eye out for anything like this and make sure those things are removed - the entire point of a legal contract is to clearly outline what you can and can't do, so we ensure people we sign contracts with put their money where their mouth is and that we don't have to rely on their "word" when it comes to enforcing selective clauses.

  2. But.. by Hatta · · Score: 2, Funny

    The Supreme Court doesn't make mistakes!

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:But.. by Hatta · · Score: 2, Informative

      So express your support, verbal and material as an individual. If you want to cooperate with a bunch of buddies to do the same, you can do that too. Just don't incorporate. It's not that free speech isn't a right, it's that incorporation isn't a right. Incorporation is a tool the government created for specific purposes, it's not a natural right. Since it's an artificial construct, they get to define the scope, and if it's in the best interest of society for them to be apolitical that's fine. They can do that without infringing on any natural or constitutional rights. Same goes for Unions.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  3. This was obvious. by Haffner · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I fail to understand how SCOTUS could be so short-sighted. When they made the ruling, I agreed with their judicial logic, but that was a case where very clearly the ruling was not in the good of the general population. I don't know how much transparency matters; if you can buy an election, you need not bother with appeasing the populace - you can just ignore it.

    --
    "Going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without your accordion." ~General Norman Schwarzkopf
    1. Re:This was obvious. by corbettw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When they made the ruling, I agreed with their judicial logic, but that was a case where very clearly the ruling was not in the good of the general population.

      The Supreme Court needs to concerns itself with protecting the rights of the individual, not the good of the general population. Otherwise we'll end up with a tyranny of the majority.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    2. Re:This was obvious. by epiphani · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Just for reference:

      The Canadian election system limits campaign spending to roughly $20 million per major party. The full amount of money allowed in our election is somewhere around $60 million. It costs more to actually run the polling booths. We have a population roughly one tenth of the US. Taking a rough stab at it, you're spending $2.5 Billion for your midterm elections. Or about four times the amount per capita as us.

      Additionally, in our system, a large percentage of that is publicly funded. And the maximum corporate donation is $1000. We have problems with corporate interests and lobbyists in Canada. You guys don't have a problem with it: you're OWNED by corporate interests.

      --
      .
    3. Re:This was obvious. by AnonymousClown · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't know how much transparency matters; if you can buy an election, ....

      Influencing a politician with money, absolutely! Buying the election, I'm not so sure.

      Everyone just assumes that the more you advertise (campaign), the better chance your candidate has in winning. But has anyone really put that to the test? I live in a Republican stronghold and the Democratic candidate is advertising hard (he's a multimillionaire trial lawyer who was Governor at one time here in GA), the only thing it seems to be doing is making the Reps dig their heals in deeper. I wonder if all that money could be counter productive or even worthless.

      Years ago, I once read an article about LL Bean. The son of the owner studied how effective their advertising was. To make a long story short, all the money spent on "Field and Stream" advertising was waste and the money spent on advertising in yuppy magazines was paying off. Tweaked the advertising allotment and he saved the company lots of money and boosted sales.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    4. Re:This was obvious. by timeOday · · Score: 2, Informative

      Otherwise we'll end up with a tyranny of the majority.

      The bigger problem now is backsliding to the natural state collective of human affairs - tyranny by the minority. The rich get richer until they have all the power, individual rights are equated with capitalism so only the rich actually have them, and free enterprise boils down to "choosing" whether to slave away for a monopoly, or starve.

    5. Re:This was obvious. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, it's called corporate oligarchy.

    6. Re:This was obvious. by tbannist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You spelled "plutocracy" incorrectly.

      Increasingly, it looks like the U.S. is a republic in name only. These groups spend money on advertising because they believe it's effective and they are probably right. Effectively, the United States is allowing it's wealthiest citizens to buy the laws they favor.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    7. Re:This was obvious. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most political advertising aims primarily at influencing swing voters - die-hard supporters of either party are unlikely to be affected.

      That said, due to the "close call" nature of national elections in US, relatively few votes can often decide the outcome. So even with completely atrocious spending per affected vote, it may well be worth it.

    8. Re:This was obvious. by epiphani · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've always wondered how this type of system works. Campaign spending is $20 million, what if the owner of the hockey teams decided to spend their own $20 million outside of that?

      They're in violation of the elections act and liable for criminal charges.

      --
      .
  4. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I call bullshit. The court knew exactly what it was doing and knew that loopholes big enough to drive a dump truck full of money through were in place.

    1. Re:Bullshit by Pojut · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To play devil's advocate here, if that's the case...what's their motivation? They've already been granted lifetime appointments, why would they need to give in to the demands/wishes of special interests or politicians?

    2. Re:Bullshit by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While they don't need to give in to their wishes, there are some motivations that could easily come up:
      1. Speaking gigs
      2. Donations to their spouse's organization
      3. Free hunting trips

      It should also be pointed out that Justices Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts also are true believers of their ideology.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  5. simple fix by corbettw · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The problem is not corporate/union donations to individuals, the problem is one of transparency. Focus on that and on closing the "loopholes" mentioned in the summary, rather than beating your chests about the supposed unfairness surrounding the act of individuals joining together to pool their resources for political change. Anything else is merely a red herring.

    --
    God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    1. Re:simple fix by corbettw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I see, so you think it's OK to limit someone's freedoms because they have more wealth than you? Please explain how that's right or fair. And please don't bother with inane utilitarian concepts of "the greater good". You aren't Jeremy Bentham and you're not going to make a more cogent argument than he ever could.

      I'm going to say this again, and more clearly and forcefully: it is immoral to trample on one person's rights because you think other people will be somehow better off if you do so. The fact of the matter is, those people will not be better off as we all suffer when rights are sacrificed for convenience or good feelings.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    2. Re:simple fix by Hatta · · Score: 2, Funny

      I see, so you think it's OK to limit someone's freedoms because they have more wealth than you?

      If you have a problem with it, I'd gladly trade you those rights for that wealth. Oh, what? No deal? Maybe it's not so bad being a rich bastard after all.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:simple fix by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 2, Insightful

      First, this is a strawman:

      I see, so you think it's OK to limit someone's freedoms because they have more wealth than you? Please explain how that's right or fair.

      And an appeal to authority:

      And please don't bother with inane utilitarian concepts of "the greater good". You aren't Jeremy Bentham and you're not going to make a more cogent argument than he ever could.

      And now you conflate rights and money. It's fine that they are the same to you. Others disagree, and therefore your definition of "moral" will be different from theirs.

      I'm going to say this again, and more clearly and forcefully: it is immoral to trample on one person's rights because you think other people will be somehow better off if you do so. The fact of the matter is, those people will not be better off as we all suffer when rights are sacrificed for convenience or good feelings.

      You can be as "clear" and "forceful" as you like, but simply stating that it's true because you say so (or Bentham says so) is not gonna convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

      We can trample rights as you say, and we do it all the time. It is neither moral or immoral, but reflects the fact that in some ways we are subject to the will of the rest of society, like it or not. I suspect you don't like it in many cases. In other cases, you probably are fine with it. Same here.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    4. Re:simple fix by yariv · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, if this id going to be a discussion of rights, please tell me how wealth (as opposed to immediate property, wealth - your stocks not your house) is a right and not a privilege given by the society. You aren't Ayn Rand, and I doubt you'll manage to make a more cogent argument than she ever could... You see, the limitations on those privileges make a lot of sense once you understand this...

    5. Re:simple fix by iamhigh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I see, so you think it's OK to limit someone's freedoms because they have more wealth than you?

      Yep, that's what a society is. Always has been, always will be. Society is for the schumck that can't afford security guards, but can obey laws, contribute, and live better than a peasant. Society is for the middle class, and if you don't like it go start your own country, or move to the Mexican side of the border, that's close enough to lawlessness.

      --
      No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
    6. Re:simple fix by Hatta · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, society is for the rich. It's hard to stay rich when you're paying for your own security. Society lets you offload that cost onto the lower classes through taxes. Maintaining the appearance of influence makes it a lot less likely that you'll need that security too.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    7. Re:simple fix by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I see, so you think it's OK to limit someone's freedoms because they have more wealth than you?

      No, I don't think it's OK to limit someone's freedoms because they have less wealth than you.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

  6. Easy fix by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Contributions may only come from registered voters (and with the current $2000 limit)
    That would exclude money from corporations.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    1. Re:Easy fix by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 3, Informative

      The problem isn't even direct donations to a candidate, really.

      It's that, for example, Microsoft could set up a shell group called "Concerned Citizens for Software Freedom" and funnel money into it to buy a million political ads that trashed a candidate running against a candidate they liked.

    2. Re:Easy fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not hypothetical. There are organisations that exist for exactly that purpose. For example, the FRC is a tax-exempt organisation promoting 'traditional family values' and all that general social conservative stuff - but, as a tax exempt organisation, they can't actually donate to any candidate. So they founded FRC Action, an open lobbying organisation that is not tax-exempt. Now FRC action does the actual donating, and the FRC itsself does... well, everything else, thus keeping it all shielded from tax.
       
        They were just the first example that came to mind. I'm sure there are plenty - on the left, on the right, and just on the side of maximising profits.

    3. Re:Easy fix by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Easier fix: all funding must come from the gov't, in equal (and relatively small) amounts for each candidate. Offer each candidate who gets the required number of signatures to be on the ballot, a set amount of TV time, a set amount of ad money, and tell everyone else to butt the fuck out of the process.

      As long as you can win by drowning your opponent in money, the system is fucked.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    4. Re:Easy fix by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Microsoft could set up a shell group called "Concerned Citizens for Software Freedom" and funnel money into it to buy a million political ads that trashed a candidate running against a candidate they liked.

      Yeah, so? Why are you so worried about speech?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    5. Re:Easy fix by mdarksbane · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And this is incredibly more dangerous than, say, Michael Bloomberg funneling money into "Americans for Safe Streets" and running a bunch of political ads...

      http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527cmtedetail_donors.php?ein=263516710&cycle=2008

      All those opposed to Citizens United are saying is that only the rich should be able to buy free speech.

    6. Re:Easy fix by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      An individual's right to political free speech, in practical terms, is marginalized and ultimately ceases to exist if giant groups of people (corporations/unions/etc.) can wield that same power on a much, much larger/louder scale without the corresponding limits and drawbacks of individuality.

      I wasn't aware that the 1st amendment had a fairness doctrine attached to it.

      Maybe your hypothetical individual should group with like minded people to convey his message more effectively?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    7. Re:Easy fix by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I wasn't aware that the 1st amendment had a fairness doctrine attached to it.

      It doesn't, but it wasn't written with monolithic corporations as people, unions, or mass media in mind, either.

      Note, I'm not arguing what the law actually is, only what it should be if you don't want to be living in a cyberpunk novel minus the cool technology in twenty years.

      Maybe your hypothetical individual should group with like minded people to convey his message more effectively?

      So you'd like America to be run as an Asian MMO. If you don't have more people and more money, who cares what you think?

      To me, that's not only a terrible idea, it's actually unAmerican.

    8. Re:Easy fix by smellsofbikes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Easier fix: all funding must come from the gov't, in equal (and relatively small) amounts for each candidate. Offer each candidate who gets the required number of signatures to be on the ballot, a set amount of TV time, a set amount of ad money, and tell everyone else to butt the fuck out of the process.

      I *like* this plan, and have always liked it, but it seems to run afoul of the first amendment. You can't prevent people (or, apparently, corporations) from endorsing candidates, and getting together in groups to form support coalitions for candidates, without stepping on their freedom of speech. Likewise, you can't stop them spending their money advertising in favor of a candidate, without stepping on the freedom of the press to print whatever they want (or are paid to print.) So how do we implement something that does restrict one or both of those, for the greater good of the democratic process, without hacking the first amendment into tiny bloody pieces?

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  7. We accept refugees (if not Randy Quaid) by rbrander · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Every US election cycle, I get more proud of Canada. My latest warm fuzzy? There was a nice article in Maclean's (our Newsweek) a few months ago about Beverly Mclachlin, our Chief Justice for the last 10 years, and the various notable decisions of the Mclachlin court. It's only because of that article I know her name, and I can't name any of the other eight.

    Whereas, just from news spillover, I can probably name most of the SCOTUS, because every confirmation and a dozen decisions every year are so politically charged. Polarized pitched battles seem to infuse every branch of the US governments, at every level. Quite frankly, it sounds exhausting.

  8. Undemocratic by Teun · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It is highly undemocratic that entities without votes can legally spend so much on influencing the democratic process.

    Democracy can only function properly when it's a one man-one vote system where every man and vote has the same bearing on the outcome.

    This level playing field is seriously out of balance because of the present donations by companies, organisations and rich individuals.

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  9. Re:Who cares? by mea37 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Perhaps you're not aware, but the Supreme Court didn't "make [a law] that depend[s] upon [an]OTHER law". The Supreme Court doesn't make laws, period.

    The Court did apparently make assumptions about the implications of a particular interpretation, but that's pretty much unavoidable. It speaks to the excessive complexity of our body of laws that they could not predict the outcome correctly.

    While I disagree with the Court's ruling, the I do not find such severe fault as you do with the specific detail of meaning (but apparently failing to say in a binding way) "...following the same rules as everyone else".

  10. Re:fuckin old people by gblackwo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So what we need then is a group of people to run the country that properly represents it's citizens. We need the 20-somethings working alongside the 60-somethings. Why shouldn't our government be representative of age distribution too?

  11. Re:Who cares? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I agree that this goes beyond naive. It is almost unbelievable that the Supreme Court would expect greater transparency where it is not explicitly required.

    The only thing that makes it believable is the rash of other outrageous -- I will go so far as to say stupid -- Supreme Court decisions recently. I won't go into those, but even so I suspect the older members of the Supreme Court of gradually increasing senility, and the newer members of not having properly studied history... in addition to being overly-politically-motivated. Properly speaking, politics should carry no weight in court decisions. I know that is an idealistic dream, but still that is the ideal.

    The thing that makes this ruling by the Supreme Court so outrageous on its face is that corporations simply don't have "rights". They have the legal privilege of acting in business matters as a person. That is all. They do not have a "right" to vote, they do not have a "right" to bear arms, they do not have a "right" to free speech! Sure, individuals within corporations have the right of free speech, but that is not the same thing, and restricting corporate donations does not infringe on that right.

  12. Alito: "Not True": TRUE by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Back in January 2010, Obama gave the State of the Union right after the Court handed down the Citizens United decision. Obama told Congress, with several of the Supremes sitting in the front row, that the decision would allow foreign corporations to influence US elections, which most Americans still realize is a terrible development. Justice Alito, who had just decided in the majority to allow corporations "free speech" by spending unlimited money in US political campaigning, was mad: he angrily mouthed "not true". The corporate mass media attacked Obama for "picking on the justices" by warning Congress and "embarrassing" the court, but of course failed to examine whether it was true.

    Less than a year later, we see it was totally true. We see that foreign corporations have invested huge amounts of money campaigning in the 2010 election. Republican candidates have gotten hundreds of $millions spent to elect them, sponsored by corporations including many foreign ones. The "US" Chamber of Commerce (Inc.) collects money from lots of foreign corporations, especially Indian ones that want US jobs shipped there, foreign banks like Credit Suisse and HSBC that want financial reform repealed, and even corporations owned by foreign kings, like the Emir of Bahrain. Foreign kings are spending more in US election campaigns than US citizens.

    Whether you think that's OK or not (it is very not OK), Alito was totally wrong. And a jerk about it. Not surprising, since Alito was installed by Bush. Alito swore in his Senate confirmation hearings that he would respect established law, but his Citizens United decision overturned lots of established law, went against the basic understanding that corporations are not people, and recklessly unleashed foreign corporate power on US election campaigns.

    He should be impeached. Then he'll be free to skip the State of the Union the way he plans to from now on because he can't stand criticism of his abominable rulings.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Alito: "Not True": TRUE by kbolino · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Only one Justice of the Supreme Court has ever been impeached, Samuel Chase of Maryland, and for similarly political reasons. He was acquitted, almost certainly because of the very political nature of the "charges" against him. I'm no Federalist, nor lover of Chase, but the impeachment power--for both Presidents and judges--was meant to be reserved for those instances where criminal actions were committed. There is good reason for that, or else every time a new party took power its first goal would be the impeachment of its predecessors, elected and appointed.

      Furthermore, without even addressing the veracity of your claims, which I think are overblown to say the least, you have failed to demonstrate actual harm resulting from the "unleashing [of] foreign corporate power on US election campaigns." You are thus charging Alito (et al.) not with any substantive crime, but with the nebulous crime of sedition. While accusing one's political enemies of having foreign bedfellows is hardly a new tactic in American politics, it has always been the resort of the politically desperate.

    2. Re:Alito: "Not True": TRUE by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, impeachment is a political institution, which is why it originates in the House and is decided in the Senate, with the only Judicial Branch involvement being the Chief Justice presiding over the Senate "trial", but with no jurisprudential power other than what the Congress votes to give them in the specific case.

      It is reserved for "high crimes and misdemeanors". Misdemeanors are mismanagement or misleadership in the language of the day.

      The goal of Republicans is indeed to impeach Obama, as they have said throughout his term. Just like they impeached Clinton, to paralyze the elected government (a frequent Republican priority). Just because Republicans abuse impeachment to override electoral politics doesn't mean that impeachment isn't still correct when an official abuses their power. In the case of Supreme Court justices, impeachment is the only way to check their power when they abuse it. Just because we haven't impeached and removed justices before doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. Indeed, the corrupt and dysfunctional condition of our officials shows we impeach far too infrequently - the lack of precedent argues for more impeachment, not less.

      The actual harm is that foreign corporations, foreign monarchs, are exercising more influence in American elections than nearly all Americans can. Not to mention the adequately unacceptable influence in elections of American corporations. None of which is acceptable in a national democracy - corporations aren't people.

      The simple fact is that you are a Republican, so you don't want to see fellow Republicans impeached. An exclusively political reason that you are dressing up in neutralized terms, but which protects Republicans. At all costs.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    3. Re:Alito: "Not True": TRUE by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Obama's "outrageous claims" in his SotU are now proven exactly true. But you Republicans don't care about the truth, or America's sovereignty. You care only about getting power, and using it for your corporate sponsors.

      There is no room for even $1 spent in American elections by foreign corporations and foreign kings. Putting it in scare quotes doesn't change the unacceptable nature.

      You Republicans love to talk about protecting the US from foreign influence, until it pays for your party to win elections. After being so wrong in every way for so long, you Republicans really should take a break from pretending you're competent in governing this country. Your reliance on foreign corporate and monarchial investment to get more power shows you're not.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    4. Re:Alito: "Not True": TRUE by Hatta · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you agree with Obama effectively heckling the Supreme Court during the State of the Union you should equally be OK with Joe Wilson calling Obama a liar.

      When Obama has the floor, he can criticize anyone he wants. When Joe Wilson has the floor, he can criticize anyone he wants. See how that works?

      Both break decorum and insult the offices of the respective individuals.

      Nothing breaks decorum and insults the office more than the absolutely appalling standard of work coming out of the Supreme Court. If you don't want the Supreme Court criticized during the State of the Union, then stop the Supreme Court from damaging the state of our union.

      --
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  13. Corporate personhood by bouldin · · Score: 3, Informative

    Agreed, the real problem here is corporate personhood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood).

    Businesses have something approaching the full rights of a human being, except, as the quote goes "They (corporations) have no soul to save and they have no body to incarcerate."

    Combine this with the ideas of limited liability, proprietary knowledge, and the common practice of boards of directors being friends with the executives they appoint, and what you have is a class of corporate management run amok with little or no accountability to shareholders. Management has access to billions of dollars to spend towards their own interests, which in many cases are not the interests of the shareholders.

    That said, I believe the government does have the authority to dissolve corporations, so a repeat felon corporation could be dissolved or fined into non-existance, although I don't know of any time this has happened before. The US guidelines to sentencing organizations (http://www.ussc.gov/2009guid/CHAP8.htm) mention fining an exclusively criminal organization of all its assets, but I see no mention of dissolving repeat offenders. Maybe someone else can chime in here.

  14. Re:Only problem with the ruling by jeff4747 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Any restriction on political speech should not exist

    Political speech by people.

    A corporation is not a person. In fact, a corporation is a government-created entity, which was created to explicitly avoid having responsibility. In the wake of CU, they've extended this shirking of responsibility to include secret funding of political campaigns.

  15. Re:Who cares? by Obfuscant · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The thing that makes this ruling by the Supreme Court so outrageous on its face is that corporations simply don't have "rights". They have the legal privilege of acting in business matters as a person. That is all.

    Corporations, as an entity made up of people, have just as many rights to speech as any other "entity made up of people". Trade unions, for example.

    If the National Education Association can dump tons of money into campaigns, and the SEIU (Oregon state employee union), and the UAW, then so should GM and other corporations be able to do so.

    We currently have an incumbent who is painting his opponent as "bought and paid for" because his campaign got a few thousand from a company while the rest of his money came in $100 and similar donations from a large number of people. The incumbent, however, is backed by many of the large unions and has gotten the vast majority of his money from them. Bought and paid for, he says?

    Now, you may claim that the unions are speaking with the voice of the members, but that is far from true. They speak with the voice of the leadership. The members are lucky if they can get their politically-based dues back without repercussions.

  16. Re:Only problem with the ruling by Sprouticus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Two things which make your assessment invalid:

    There is nothing in the constitution which defines corporations as citizens with 1st amendment rights. That is an artifact of judicial decisions and law on the books. Get rid of corporations (which reducing liability for shareholders), or make the shareholders criminally liable for actions of the company and we can talk about giving corporations more rights. If you were to strictly interpret the constitiution, any group that took money from non-citizens should be exluded from the political process. If a company feels its shareholders are best represented by a certain political movement, then it should hand out a special divadend and send a note to the shareholders suggesting they give the money to a specific cause. And if that shareholder is a mutual fund, then the fund should do the same. At the end of the day, the decision to give money to a political campaign or cause should be done by the individual.

    "People form groups, corporations, unions, non-profits, and the like, to give more weight to their voice"

    People do not form corporations to give more weight to their voice. They form corporations to make money.

    While you may not like it because it does not fit in a shoe box, some groups ARE different than others. The charter of a union for instance makes it clear that their role is to represent the needs/welfare of their members. Same with an advocacy group such as NOW, various pro life groups, environmental groups, etc. A corporation has no such requirement. They exist ONLY to make money for their shareholders. They are duty bound to try to make money without regard to morality, but only by ethics and, in theory, within the laws of the land. That is it. Non monetary considerations cannot be taken into account BY LAW. A union also wants its members to get more money, but they also have the flexibility to look at other issues which may influence their decision. Advocacy groups are more flexible as well.

    citizens United was a bad decision on its face. By giv

  17. Re:Who cares? by DrgnDancer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    they do not have a "right" to bear arms

    You know that's an interesting point. It's a completely logical extension of "Corporations have Free Speech rights", to "Corporations have all first amendment rights". Corporations with "freedom of religious expression" make me a little scared (could be an interesting end run around civil rights legislation), but there's definitely a sufficient conflict between the individual rights of employees and the "rights" of the corporation to make that at least a less likely problem. It's not a big logical step from there to "Corporations have the right to bear arms". That's a scary idea.

    Slippery slope arguments are often silly and convoluted, but in this case it's really *not* a huge jump from "Corporations have *this* Constitutional Right" to "Corporations have all Constitutional rights". One really does imply the other. Of course there's lots of interpretation to be done on what it would *mean* that Corporations have these rights (I mean, they're not cognizant sent entities with a single opinion), but the idea that they do *have* them is a short logical jump from this decision. That's more than a bit concerning.

    --
    I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
  18. Re:Completely missing the problem by demonbug · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The fundamental problem is people actually paying attention to TV political ads. What we need is voting reform in the form of massive civics and logic education. Teach people to cast a vote based on their own research & conclusions and not an error laden, buzzword filled TV ad that plays on people's emotions.

    I like this idea; unfortunately, logic and civics are widely known to have a liberal bias, so it would be very difficult to bring either of these into our public education system.

  19. Re:Who cares? by mea37 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're resting on the assumption that all groupings of people are created equal. I'm not sure I agree with that.

    A corporation is given specific benefits and expected to abide by specific rules. It does not transiently acqurie all the rights or responsibilities of the indivuals who make it up, and in particular an individual's right to expression cannot be exercised by leveraging corporate assets to which he or she might have access.

    Each corporation has a stated purpose for existing (though typically the founders keep this as broad as is legally acceptable), its assets are held to be used only in acceptable ways to advance that purpose, and the government has every right and interest in constraining what ways are acceptable.

  20. Going beyond "naive" in this instance by OldHawk777 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Going beyond "naive" in this instance was not (I think) by Justice Kennedy.

    Going beyond "naive" in this instance for some Justices/Lawyers may have been a crime against Democracy (not the law), IMO, probably in spirit and with intent "The US Constitution" was circumvented with great plutocratic hubris and gross intent to harm US with political/legal treason (but that is not against the law).

    The Corporate States of America (CSA) is a plutocracy not a democracy. The CSA economy is corporate-welfare institutionalism not capitalism. The CSA justice system protects the few from the public many. The CSA religion praises wealth as proof of the gods will and favor.

    Democracy is governance for the People, Tyranny is governance of the people.

    As corporate states, are EU and US any better than CN or RU? I think maybe not, but EU and US still have great expectations (or delusions) to be far better for The People.

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  21. Re:Who cares? by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Insightful
    You're resting on the assumption that all groupings of people are created equal.

    Far from it. That is why I did not say one word about voluntary collaborations of people formed for specifically political purposes.

    Unions are, for the most part, involuntary groupings formed based on employment or occupation, having no political purpose behind them. No, "collective bargaining" is not a political purpose, it is a commercial one.

    ... and in particular an individual's right to expression cannot be exercised by leveraging corporate assets to which he or she might have access.

    Then the same rules should apply to an individual who has access to union dues. Those are just as much "corporate assets" as "company money", and in many cases less so. If I own a company then those corporate assets are, indeed, mine.

    Each corporation has a stated purpose for existing ...

    Just as each union has.

    ... its assets are held to be used only in acceptable ways to advance that purpose,

    That's your opinion, but not the law. I suggest you contact Ben and Jerry's and tell them that their donations to civic causes are not allowed because they do not fall within the scope of "ice cream business". Or Progressive Insurance, which has that name not because they sell progressive insurance.

    ... and the government has every right and interest in constraining what ways are acceptable.

    Again, your opinion. In my opinion, the government has no right, and indeed no Constitutional authority, to tell me that I cannot spend the corporate assets of a company I own in any way I see fit. And for the potential pedant, I'll add "that is legal for any other citizen to spend his money."

  22. Re:Who cares? by Obfuscant · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Corporations with "freedom of religious expression" make me a little scared (could be an interesting end run around civil rights legislation), ...

    How so? Do you understand that there are corporations that are based on religion operations? How does the freedom of expression of a corporation in any way limit your civil rights?

    It's not a big logical step from there to "Corporations have the right to bear arms". That's a scary idea.

    How, exactly, does a "corporation" bear arms? Do you mean the people working at a corporation? Yes, they still have their individual rights. They do not lose their inalienable rights when they are hired.

    Do you mean "bear arms as part of the corporate operation"? Briggs and Wells Fargo and other armored car services come to mind as corporations that "bear arms" in that sense. Do those corporations scare you? I don't believe that the individuals in that corporation bear arms in violation to laws applicable to individuals, but I can't testify to that. I'm rarely scared by a passing fellow with a gun and a moneybag. YMMV.

    Or do you mean the corporation can "bear arms" in some other way? The Remington corporation comes to mind as a corporation that "bears arms" in a generic way -- boxes and boxes and boxes of guns sitting in warehouses. So too, Walmart, K-Mart, Bi-Mart, Gander Mountain, and any other retail corporation that stocks them.

    Slippery slope arguments are often silly and convoluted, but in this case it's really *not* a huge jump from "Corporations have *this* Constitutional Right" to "Corporations have all Constitutional rights". One really does imply the other.

    I am most disturbed not by the idea that corporations have the rights, but the idea that it is a "slippery slope" to think that having one right means one has them all. Yes, having one right means one has them all. That's part of them being "inalienable".

    ...(I mean, they're not cognizant sent entities with a single opinion),...

    It is a rare human being who has "a single opinion", or even unchangeable opinions. If we make a "unified, consistent set of opinions" a litmus test for having rights, we've removed any concept of "inalienable" or even "rights".

    And, if we make "unified opinion" a litmus test for "corporate" rights, we eliminate trade unions from the playing field of political speech, since the members of such unions rarely, if ever, have a single opinion about any political action.

  23. Re:Who cares? by WheezyJoe · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Okay, first things first.

    You're resting on the assumption that all groupings of people are created equal.

    Far from it. That is why I did not say one word about voluntary collaborations of people formed for specifically political purposes.

    Unions are, for the most part, involuntary groupings formed based on employment or occupation, having no political purpose behind them. No, "collective bargaining" is not a political purpose, it is a commercial one.

    Collective bargaining is inherently political. Commerce is regulated by politics, and politics is influenced by commerce. And the power of the state is involved in any dispute between union and labor, e.g., the rights of labor to petition, contract matters, even the matter of obtaining a permit to picket. Before unions had political influence, the government would often come to the aid of companies in conflict with their workers. Think Department of Labor. Think Labor Day. Collective bargaining is nothing if not an exercise of political power.

    Again, your opinion. In my opinion, the government has no right, and indeed no Constitutional authority, to tell me that I cannot spend the corporate assets of a company I own in any way I see fit. And for the potential pedant, I'll add "that is legal for any other citizen to spend his money."

    A corporation is not the same as "your money". A corporation is an artificial, legal entity created by a state that has its own assets and its own liability. Most particularly, it can sue, be sued, own property, even go bankrupt, but the assets of the owners of the corporation are protected. Normally, only knowing commissions of fraud or crime are grounds to "break the corporate veil" and give plaintiffs access to an owners personal assets.

    This is an extraordinary protection. And has absolutely no constitutional basis (but you're welcome to look for it yourself). Thus, the rights of a corporation are completely arbitrary, created by government and therefore changeable and may be regulated by government for any reason. States like Delaware and South Dakota, for example, are comparably lenient on corporations, thereby to be more attractive as a registration site.

    In other words, a person, e.g., you, have the right to express yourself in any way you choose. But if you incorporate, and your corporation makes money, you do NOT inherently have the right to spend your corporate assets in any way you choose. You could, of course, pay yourself a big bonus and then do what you want with it, but there are rules regarding liabilities and your obligations to your co-owners. Throwing a $million birthday bash for your wife with corporate funds is not a good idea.

    The abuse comes because one can incorporate anything. Most taxis in New York are owned by a hand-full of corporations. But if a taxi hits you and you sue, you will find yourself suing a tiny nothing-corporation with no assets other than that individual taxi; the assets of the parent corporation will be out of your reach. The same chicanery is applied to politics.

    The point is, the rights of a corporation have no constitutional basis. Really. Go and look for some. There is no language in the constitution pertinent to corporations (notice how many times the Constitution expressly says "person"), nor is there any evidence that the Founders considered corporations when framing the document. On the contrary, the matter of corporations was left entirely to the states until late in the 18th Century at the earliest.

    No constitutional rights means free to regulate... speech, commerce, anything. And whocan argue that corporate speech isn't targeted, at least ultimately, to making a bigger buck? Hence, Kennedy and the Ro

    --
    Take it easy, Charlie, I've got an Angle...
  24. Re:Who cares? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Anecdotal, but my mom was unable to get her dues back from the Washington State Teacher's Union, when she opposed their political spending.

  25. Re:Who cares? by Obfuscant · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Let's assume that the eventual abolishment of all unions has already happened...

    If you are going to assume something that will never happen, we might as well assume that the deficit is gone, everyone makes a million dollars a year, and that there is peace and joy all over the planet with no hunger and no pestilence. Gitmo is closed, we're out of Iraq/Afghanistan completely, Hamas and Israel are buddies, nobody ties bombs to their children and sends them to the local markets or on the bus, and sea levels/climate changes are stable and nonthreatening.

    There aren't "very few unions left", and they will never be fully abolished. It would require a complete rewrite to the US Constitution for such a prohibition to occur.

    But this is wandering far afield from my original comment. I was pointing out that if corporations do not have the right to donate money to political causes, then unions should lack the same right and have the same controls. That is an argument neither for nor against corporate/union campaign contributions, just an argument that the color you paint one naturally paints the other.

    How do you feel about this law? Comfortable with it?

    The law abolishing unions? Won't happen. There are too many unions and too much union money in play for that to ever happen.

    Did you not notice how the UAW managed to get paid off by Mr. Obama at the expense of every stockholder in GM? There are a lot more stockholders of GM (and some of them are VERY rich) than there are union members. If the corporation was in charge, it wouldn't have happened.

  26. Re:Who cares? by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Informative

    Unions are, for the most part, involuntary groupings formed based on employment or occupation, having no political purpose behind them. No, "collective bargaining" is not a political purpose, it is a commercial one.

    And that's why, at least in most states, unions are required by law to allow you to opt out of paying all union dues except the portion that directly contributes to its expenses in collective bargaining. To the extent that this is the case, any political contributions made by a union are to a large extent determined by the consent of its members, unlike a corporation's contributions, which are only determined by the consent of its board members.

    --

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  27. Re:Who cares? by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Informative

    I agree that corporations and unions should be treated the same for the purposes of political donations. However I think you will find that all but one union has revenues of less that $20M/yr and the vast majority can only dream of revenues in excess of $1M/yr. The one union with revenues in exess of $20M/yr rakes in $175M/yr which in the grand scheme of things is peanuts. The notion that they can compete on an equal footing with corporate donations in a $1.5B campaign is laughable, the average US CEO's remuneration of $8.5M dwarfs the yearly revenue of all but a handfull of unions.

    Note: The source for the union figures is the US DOL, they have a web app where you can look these things up but I used my fragile memory since I can't be bothered finding the link.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.