South Korean Cartoonists Cry Foul Over Edgy Simpsons Intro

theodp writes "When asked to animate a dark commentary about labor practices in Asia's cartoon industry — the edgy title sequence for the Simpsons' episode 'MoneyBART' — staff from the South Korean production company Akom raised a rare protest. Even after being toned down, the sequence created by British graffiti artist Banksy depicted a dungeon-like complex where droning Asian animators worked in sweatshops, rats scurried around with human bones, kittens were spliced up into Bart Simpson dolls, and a gaunt unicorn punched holes into DVDs. The satire, Akom founder and president Nelson Shin argued, gave the impression that Asian artists slave away in subpar sweatshops when they actually animate much of The Simpsons every week in high-tech workshops in downtown Seoul. Still, South Korean animators make one-third the salaries of their American counterparts, and Shin declined to comment on the full extent of the work his company has outsourced to SEK, a state-run animation studio of North Korea. Some argue that the Banksy sequence's gray and forlorn atmosphere more accurately depicts the sweatshop-like conditions in North Korea."

Comments

I'm pretty sure...

[contra_mundi]

Nobody actually thought they were using unicorns to make DVDs.

Re:I'm pretty sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

They weren't?!

Re:I'm pretty sure...

[Nidi62]

Of course not. Everyone knows unicorns are really used. They're killed, their horns ground up, and the powder made into the elixir that keeps Larry King alive.

Re:I'm pretty sure...

[Xenious]

I'm pretty sure that was f-in hilarious!

Re:I'm pretty sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they're turned into Canned Meat for which they get sued for.

Re:I'm pretty sure...

[fishexe]

Of course not. Everyone knows unicorns are really used. They're killed, their horns ground up, and the powder made into the elixir that keeps Larry King alive.

Well, at least they were, until they went extinct. That's why he retired: he realized after his current supply runs out he's done, and he didn't want to disintegrate live on air.

Re:I'm pretty sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

We use a lot of creatures here. firefox, thunderbird, python, ... even android.

Re:I'm pretty sure...

[pookemon]

Yep - This "Shin" took offense to their work environment being depicted as a sweat shop (which has been done before in the simpsons in "The Barber Shop of Horrors" IIRC) - but not at the depiction of them "Splicing" (WTF - Shredding more like it) kittens.

Re:I'm pretty sure...

[Dahamma]

Close - but the unicorns aren't killed, they are tended in their later years by the sisters at Radiant Farms until they pass naturally.

Re:I'm pretty sure...

[Have Brain Will Rent]

I thought the commentary was on the practices of 20th Century Fox seeing as how that was the name over the prison camp at the very end - for the most part it seemed like they were the ones being blamed, not the people they hired to do the dirty work.

Re:I'm pretty sure...

[darknb]

This isn't the first time the Simpsons have done this either. In an filler clip show episode hosted by Troy McClure there is a scene where sweatshop animators in Korea toil over their work while armed guards look on. According to the DVD commentary many of the animators were upset with this and the scene was almost completely scrapped.

Re:I'm pretty sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

i thought thats how they made super glue?

All this time they never realized

[Anonymous Coward]

Laugh. It's a cartoon.

Re:All this time they never realized

[LBt1st]

Agreed. This a silly stereotyping and nothing more. This is no different then making jokes about blacks eating chicken, whites sucking at basketball, jews being tight with money, etc, etc. It doesn't mean it's true. It's just a stereotype. Chill out and laugh a little.

Modern South Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

South Korea often gets downplayed, and I'm not sure why. After having lived in Korea for three years, I've got to say that Seoul is just as advanced as any other city I've visited, and in some ways, more so. (And in some ways, less so. But, well. You win some, you lose some.) I'll admit that the minimum wage here is pretty ridiculously tiny compared to back home, but even so, the standard of living is pretty damned decent.

I'd love to live in Seoul. It's so vibrant, and the newest apartment complexes are ridiculously nice. Too bad they're also ridiculously expensive, even by North American standards.

Re:Modern South Korea

[Hatta]

I'd love to live in Seoul. It's so vibrant, and the newest apartment complexes are ridiculously nice.

There's nothing you could put in an apartment complex that would entice me to give up my own four walls.

Re:Modern South Korea

[mangamuscle]

A job maybe? Oh, you still have yours, do not worry, we will ship it to asia befeore you know it.

Re:Modern South Korea

[MadAhab]

Ridiculous by North American standards?

Clearly you aren't posting from Trump Tower, etc.

Re:Modern South Korea

[hedwards]

I wish I could mod you up. That's precisely the problem. We're engaging in a race to the bottom, and ultimately only the upper classes benefit from it. It doesn't matter that Americans work harder and are more productive as a whole than any of the Asian nations. Because corporate interests are OK shipping shoddy products which may include toxic substances and the high casualty rate the jobs are shipped over seas anyways.

Re:Modern South Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

Because corporate interests are OK shipping shoddy products which may include toxic substances and the high casualty rate the jobs are shipped over seas anyways.

And consumers are OK with buying them.

Re:Modern South Korea

[blackraven14250]

That's the thing about the corporate system that many people fail to realize. It's very easy to get a corporation to change what they're doing if there's a coordinated effort by consumers to choose not to buy from a certain manufacturer until practices are changed.

Re:Modern South Korea

[schon]

That's the thing about the corporate system that many people fail to realize. It's very easy to get a corporation to change what they're doing if there's a coordinated effort by consumers to choose not to buy from a certain manufacturer until practices are changed.

That's the thing about the corporate system that corporate apologists people fail to realize. It's almost impossible to get a coordinated effort by consumers because the corporations have so more damn money than individuals, and can drown out any opposition to their pracices.

Re:Modern South Korea

[jamesh]

It's very easy to get a corporation to change what they're doing if there's a coordinated effort by consumers to choose not to buy from a certain manufacturer until practices are changed.

It's not so easy to get consumers to not buy from certain manufacturers though. People buy the cheapest goods they can find that will do the job without giving a thought to the fact that they are robbing from themselves.

Re:Modern South Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 Cutting retort of truth

It's super effective!

Re:Modern South Korea

[Jafafa Hots]

But why we ARE more productive? How is productivity measured?
Not from the employee's point of view, but from the employer's.

If you are the most productive worker from the employer's point of view, you are LESS productive for yourself.

Most productive means least well compensated for the value you produce.

Re:Modern South Korea

[Dahamma]

Our average blue collar (often union) worker in NO WAY works harder than the average Chinese contemporary, be it factory, trucking, construction/public works, etc. And in the rare cases they do, they get time and a half to double time.

Not that I think that's a slight on the American worker or noble sacrifice by the Chinese worker... it's just a fact. They work their asses off for fractional pay (even adjusted for cost of living) with almost no benefits, little to no overtime, and often, no life whatsoever outside of work. If we don't acknowledge and understand that fact then we're never going to fix it on either end.

Personally, I think it sucks. But the only way to improve the situation is to get EVERYONE involved. I'm tired of peopple who blame "the corporations" and then go to the cheapest discount store to buy the cheapest products available. The fact is, these companies build what sells the best, and apparently price matters more than anything else. As long as the collective American consumer market has that attitude nothing will change, and it's not the responsibility of the "corporate interests" to solve it.

Re:Modern South Korea

[Froomb]

As a expat resident of Seoul who has been coming to Korea since 1976, I'll second this. The ROK has made huge strides over the past generations, from desperate poverty to relative wealth. South Korea is a member of the OECD and will host the G20 summit next month. There is a large and vibrant middle class, the economy is growing at a nice clip (~6%) and Korean companies are kicking Japan's corporate ass. Americans largely aren't tuned into Korean popular culture, but much of the rest of Asia is, with 1000s of Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Taiwanese, HKer, etc. arriving daily to shop and hang out in places made famous in Korean TV soaps and films. Essentially life is very good here (as a university professor) and a welcome relief from the insane political rhetoric in the U.S. There is universal literacy here, with a majority of South Korean high school grads going to university, although admittedly unemployment post-graduation can be daunting. The big problem in South Korea is the high cost of real estate, with an average 2-bedroom apartment in Seoul going for between $500K - $750K and 3-bedrooms, often over $1m in nicer neighborhood. For those not already in the real estate market, it's almost impossible to buy in without support from relatives.

North Korea is another story, but even there a nascent market economy has arisen in the past decade, joint ventures with the South, show long-term promise, new universities have been founded with foreign support, and likely gains substantial economic support from NK refugees abroad. The NK workers lucky enough to work on animation likely enjoy a privileged status and consider themselves fortunate. It's the famers who have the hardest lot, as the north has never been all that productive given the harsh climate, and the small scale of production together with lack of advanced machinery and fertilizer put them at a major disadvantage.

Re:Modern South Korea

[the_humeister]

First off, you only have four walls? No roof or ceiling. It must suck when it rains.

Second, what about free Swedish massage therapists?

Re:Modern South Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

It's almost impossible to get a coordinated effort by consumers because the corporations have so more damn money than individuals...

Have you considered the possibility that the coordinated efforts fail because most consumers just don't care about them?

Re:Modern South Korea

[blackraven14250]

The fact that it's easy to change the behaviors of a capitalist system in theory means the theory has a flawed assumption. That flawed assumption is that people care even 10% of the time.

However, when things do eventually get to the breaking point, consumers (aka voters) will change the system, given a democratic government is coupled with the capitalist economic system and that corporate interests don't override the people's interests. That's why capitalism in the US hasn't failed so far, and part of the reason many are worried about the future of the US.

Re:Modern South Korea

[bendodge]

Corporations don't get money just for existing and being evil. They get it from customers. Now, unless they have a monopoly, they must be doing something to attract those customers. Perhaps you are in a minority that doesn't want to be a customer?

Re:Modern South Korea

[Corbets]

That's the thing about the corporate system that many people fail to realize. It's very easy to get a corporation to change what they're doing if there's a coordinated effort by consumers to choose not to buy from a certain manufacturer until practices are changed.

That's the thing about the corporate system that corporate apologists people fail to realize. It's almost impossible to get a coordinated effort by consumers because the corporations have so more damn money than individuals, and can drown out any opposition to their pracices.

If they had so much money that they didn't care about people buying their product, they would stop making it. I don't know anyone who runs a business just for the sake of dealing with government headaches, angry customers, employee difficulties, etc.

I suggest an alternative view: that not enough people find the actions of the companies you're referring to offensive, and therefore not enough people participate in your coordinated efforts. i.e. it's just not important to most other people.

Re:Modern South Korea

[DerekLyons]

After having lived in Korea for three years, I've got to say that Seoul is just as advanced as any other city I've visited

I shouldn't have to point this out - but since you make it necessary: "South Korea" != "Seoul" in the same that "California" != "Los Angeles".

Re:Modern South Korea

[rve]

the newest apartment complexes ... ridiculously expensive, even by North American standards.

What's that supposed to mean? For the same price as my western European 2 bedroom apartment, I could have bought a massive ranch in Texas, complete with cows, or a single family home with a garden and some trees in upstate New York. Housing is cheap in North America.

Re:Modern South Korea

[TheGratefulNet]

well, we're happy for you.

but, uhm, we need to start taking care of OUR OWN.

the other countries do. why don't we? what IS wrong with us that we continue this 'race to the bottom'.

I don't think people really begruge other countries from having their success, but we don't think its fair that its simply a shift of wealth away from america. if korea (et al) are successful, fine; but its not successful on honorable reasons. it has been stealing jobs and there's no way to compete when you NEED healthcare in the US and that, alone, is enough to disbalance things unfairly.

fair is fair.

but the way its been 'worked out' is anything but fair.

although I do hear that ceo's are having the fucking TIME OF THEIR LIVES this decade.

Re:Modern South Korea

[kiddygrinder]

i'm pretty sure they're not "stealing jobs" most down home america mom and pop loving business entities are quite happy to hand them over.

Re:Modern South Korea

[makomk]

If they had so much money that they didn't care about people buying their product, they would stop making it.

Oh, they care about people buying it. The number of people you could actually get to stop buying it is just an insignificant drop in the ocean, though. Remember that the exact same kind of people own and run the media, they're often friends with the owners of the really big corporations, and they're more than happy to ignore any issues or even obfuscate them with bad information until consumers can't figure out what not to buy.

Re:Modern South Korea

[Froomb]

if korea (et al) are successful, fine; but its not successful on honorable reasons. it has been stealing jobs and there's no way to compete when you NEED healthcare in the US and that, alone, is enough to disbalance things unfairly.

I sympathize with your frustration, but have felt this for America likely long before you. The small Kansas town in which I grew up (pop. 150) flourished in my father's lifetime with a bank, hotel, drug store, barber, etc. But by my youth in the 1960s, only two repair garages and a tavern remained; essentially it was a ghost town, and even lost its high school. Thanks to the automobile and better roads (an ICBM station nearby got us asphalt roads), almost all the jobs were "outsourced" to the big city, Tokpeka. Then in my late adolescence the same happened to Topeka, when the Goodyear tire plant (once the largest in the world) scaled back its production, putting Topeka on the skids and the economic energy went to Kansas City, Chicago, and the coasts. And this was the 1970s. This hollowing out process due to changing technology, mobility of capital and labor has continued in the U.S. for the past century and likely will continue apace globally, as borders become less relevant. Some companies, such as Apple and Catepillar have been able have been able to adapt and create products desired around the world, others such Zenith and RCA have fallen into senescence.

I'm not sure what you mean by "honorable reasons", but the meme that Asians cheat at trade hasn't really been a fair observation since even the GATT says in the 1980s and certainly not since the WTO began in 1995. Basically the reason South Koreans got ahead was because even though they have few resources they worked harder than everyone in the world, saved as much as they could, and sacrificed for higher education. Among other things they created world-class steelmaking, shipbuilding, and semiconductor industries out of nothing, using mostly Japanese capital and technology, since the U.S. viewed them as foolish to have such ambitions from the 1960s.

At present, South Korea does more trade with China than the U.S., and they are one of the few countries that manage a balance of payments surplus with China because they produce goods that the Chinese want to buy. Moreover, the largest group of foreign students in China are South Koreans and the largest group of foreign students in South Korea are Chinese. South Korea remains firmly in the U.S. camp militarily and is grateful for the troops stationed here (though they get almost no credit in the U.S. for the sizable contingent of troops they sent to Vietnam and Iraq), but over time, the U.S. is gradually becoming much less important to the nation's future, as evidenced by the Free Trade Agreement (FTA) they recently signed with the European Union, while the prospective one with the U.S. is stalled, largely due to protectionist sentiments.

South Korea is by no means perfect and they go overboard at time on anti-American issues such as fears of beef BSE contamination, but on the whole they are a hard-working, highly educated people who deserve the success they have achieved by dint of great efforts over decades.

Re:Modern South Korea

[crossmr]

The big problem in South Korea is the high cost of real estate, with an average 2-bedroom apartment in Seoul going for between $500K - $750K and 3-bedrooms, often over $1m in nicer neighborhood. For those not already in the real estate market, it's almost impossible to buy in without support from relatives.

I see this as a good thing.

It is very easy to get into the market without a family. It's not easy to step into a mansion without a family. However, I find the Korean system to be far superior in the long-term. Let's look at an example:
I get an apartment in western city X
I pay, for example, $1200 deposit, and $1200 a month in rent. It is very common to pay deposit equal to 1 month's rent.

At the end of 1 year, I leave.
I paid $14400 in rent, and get my $1200 back. I move to a new apartment, and do it all over again.

in Korea I have to pay $10000 deposit for an entry level place big enough for a couple. However, I'm only paying $600 rent.
At the end of 1 year, (I can't leave, they typically have 2 year contracts, but anyway)
I paid $7200 in rent, and I get my $10000 rent back.

However, after 2 years, I've saved like a bugger, and let's say I know have an additional $20,000 to put on a deposit, perfectly doable here due to cost of living.
Now I drop $30000 on a deposit and as a result, my monthly rent drops to $400.
I'm now paying $4800 a year for rent and I get my $30000 back.
during which time I've saved up $20k more.
I drop that back in and now I'm putting down $50000. With $50000 down and paying $200 a month, you can get a decent place.

That's after 4 years in the market and not pissing your money away. If you got married at a typical age, you'd be prime to have a kid at that age and your place would be more than adequate.

Korea uses a stepping stone real estate market.

the western system is a very flat system in which you can never get ahead. The high deposit system and low monthly rent assures the average person can upgrade their living accommodations while not pissing away all their money.
 

Re:Modern South Korea

[zippthorne]

No, we like to pretend that a) there is no choice because everybody is doing it, and b) it's not really happening because we didn't see it, my eyes are closed, lalala

WalMart sells a shittier version of this product for $5 less. $5!

Re:Modern South Korea

[Magada]

Perhaps you have not thought this through. It IS a race to the bottom and it does not matter whether a market is served by one or more producers.

  Once one of the producers starts cutting corners to reduce unit costs (not prices, mind you, just costs), the others will follow (because the first one to cut will post a Great Quarter (tm) and so their shares will rise and everyone else's directors and CEOs will look like limp-dicks in the eyes of the almighty Shareholder) and before you know it, ALL the meat you could possibly buy is tainted with growth hormones, pesticides and/or antibiotics. Welcome to the miracle of the FreeMarket(sm).

Re:Modern South Korea

[TheLink]

I personally find it hilarious that it's often the same people who think that voters aren't voting for the right parties and yet think those same voters would be able to vote "correctly", regularly and consistently with their wallets.

Note: I'm not saying the voters aren't voting correctly. To me the US voters have been voting for what they want and getting what they voted for. The Two Parties have got the votes of more than 95% of the voters. If the voters really get that pissed off with both parties, they could actually vote for someone else. Even if that someone else doesn't win, if 30% of the votes go elsewhere, the Two Parties might change accordingly. Or the other voters might say "hey that party might actually have a shot, I'll vote for them in the next election if the Two Parties are crap".

Re:Modern South Korea

[oldhack]

Them Koreans are turning out some damn good movies. Just saw couple by a dude named "Bong" :-) Seriously, I'm impressed - though sucks having to "read" the movies.

Hollywood seriously needs to step up.

Re:Modern South Korea

[gl4ss]

no the reason why it's hard to get a coordinated response is that nobody really cares. which is great, so the simpsons, family guy and all can keep airing.

Re:Modern South Korea

[Mikey48]

I suspect it may have something to do with North Korea being in the news so much and then confusion about the whole North/South thing among much of the population.

Re:Modern South Korea

[operagost]

So what happens if you can't pay what's essentially an entire year's rent in advance? Live on the street?

Re:Modern South Korea

[crossmr]

Not at all. Most Koreans live with their parents until they're married/have a decent job. For most people saving 10K after a year of work isn't really that hard unless you're pissing money away. That's all it takes to get into a place.

For those who don't have the deposit, there are lower deposit places but you're starting very far down the rung. The monthly will be higher/it'll be hole to live in.

Alternatively for those who have to go to work not near their family, they can live in things called goshiwons, which are essentially dorm rooms.
Costs around $200-$400 a month, depending on quality, basically the size of a small dorm room for 1 person. You get a single bed, closet, the higher end ones give you a private shower. You get free internet, TV, heat, air conditioning, basic food, laundry, and other facilities.

As a culture they're quite accustomed to living with their parents until they are 25-30. The parents are also saving quite a bit to help them get their first place. Korea is based on a savings culture.

However anyone who wants to get into it with an average starting job can save up enough deposit for that first rung after only a years work. Even if they were living in a goshiwon away from their family. There are alternatives. We might not like them. However, my first year here, I decided to stick it out in a goshiwon and you'd think it was tiny, but actually it was okay. I wouldn't trade it for the larger place I have now, but I didn't go crazy and got settled just fine.

Re:Modern South Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

Or a 20m2 apartment in downtown New York. Living out in the country is cheap no matter where you go. I was looking at some land outside Trier when I was there last month, and for the same price as my place in the city in Seattle (fairly small city), I could get a place nearly twice the size and with better amenities near Aach.

Re:Modern South Korea

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. You're right that South Korea != Seoul, but if we're gauging quality of life in different countries, wouldn't it make sense to choose representative cities?

Whether by global recognition, government centers or population, Seoul is the clear choice to represent South Korea.

And while I'm at it, I think you meant that South Korea != Seoul in the same way that the US != Los Angeles.

I didn't think..

[JPalms]

I didn't think the intro was specifically directed at Korea, but just sweat shops in general. Although I'm sure North Korea is nothing short of horrible.

Why not in America?

[OrangeTide]

We need to take a stand and start producing cartoons in sweatshops here in America!

Re:Why not in America?

[antifoidulus]

Actually South Park is pretty much totally made in the USA. They basically do everything in CG(Simpsons is still done with cel animation, but the color is now done digitally). Thats how South Park can actually parody fairly recent events, a show can be created within a week, for the Simpsons it usually takes about a year to go from script to finished product, a huge chunk of that is the time it takes to do the animation.

Re:Why not in America?

[OrangeTide]

unacceptable, it is not done in a sweatshop.

Re:Why not in America?

[Anonymous Coward]

We already do. Oh, you meant the U.S., didn't you? In that case, yeah, retasking U.S. sweatshops to producing cartoons, instead of the packing for them, might be a nice change of pace.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, this is a rare occasion where I think outrage is warranted. As satire, the intro falls utterly flat on its arse. South Korea is among the most technologically advanced and progressive countries on earth, so to portray it as if it were China is a gross insult. A real low point for Banksy, whose work I usually admire. He really should just stick to what he knows, because he's clearly demonstrated his massive ignorance of the South Korean labour market.

Send in the subs

[MyLongNickName]

Hell, if they won't do anything about North Korea murdering dozens of their people in the sub attack, they won't do anything about a silly comic.

Re:Send in the subs

[flyingkillerrobots]

It's much easier to fight your friends than to fight your enemies.

Re:Send in the subs

[hedwards]

There's a lot of South Koreans that genuinely have no idea what goes on in North Korea. There's a significant number of them that want reunification, not understanding that the two peoples are about as related at this point as say the French and Zimbabweans. And that it would almost certainly require the South Koreans to subvert themselves to North Korean rule.

Re:Send in the subs

[MightyMartian]

Even if North Korea reunited under South Korean rule, like German reunification, it would make the economic woes of German reunification seem insignificant. We're talking about a broke country, a complete basket case of an economy, a country that has lived under six decades of centralized tyranny. I wonder how many South Koreans would want to take on that burden. I know there are lot of West Germans who were, within a few years, a lot less enthusiastic about Reunification.

But I have my doubts that we'll see the two Koreas joined any time soon. North Korea has mastered a pretty good strategy using its on-again-off-again nuclear program to extort needed aid from South Korea and other nations, and as long as everyone keeps throwing it life lines, it basically underwrites the Kim Dynasty and the Generals that support it.

Re:Send in the subs

[Anonymous Coward]

Quite the opposite actually. There is a segment made up of North Korean refuges and mostly old folks with family in the North that'll call for a quick reunification, but the rest of the country is made up of younger folks who have little to no ties with that country and have a fair amount of knowledge of how bad things are there. If one is to maintain a draft you damn well better be able to justify it after all. Also, the Koreas have been divided for less than a century, get rid of the respective governments and the two are still culturally identical. Finally, considering how fragile North Korea's government is, and how it depends on a cult of personality, and totalitarian rules, it's not that unlikely the North will collapse and South Korea will be able to assimilate it.

Re:Send in the subs

[Dails]

Talking with South Korean sailors, they almost universally say that "the only way we would team up with North Korea is to attack Japan." That's right, they feel a stronger bond with fellow Koreans (who regularly kidnap South Koreans, send special forces into South Korea, shoot provocative missile tests around South Korea, occasionally SINK SK WARSHIPS) than with their Japanese allies with whom they train, share military technology (which by the way is a mostly one-way trade), and have much, much stronger economic bonds.

How many South Koreans would want to take on the burden of nK? More than you might think.

Re:Send in the subs

[Anonymous Coward]

Germany is completely different. There, everyone knew Hilter was an asshole and the bombs proved it daily. In North Korea the mindfucking is on a completely different scale, no one knows wtf. I'm astonished some South Koreans think reunification is even possible without the direct authorization and approval of Kim Jong Ill (or a body double ;) )

Re:Send in the subs

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you missed quite a bit of 20th century history. Go read about it on Wikipedia or in a decent book and then post a new comment that is actually based on things that have something to do with reality.

Re:Send in the subs

[crossmr]

I wonder how many South Koreans would want to take on that burden. I know there are lot of West Germans who were, within a few years, a lot less enthusiastic about Reunification.

West Germans and South Koreans aren't even in the same boat. Korea is a collectivist society. Their parents lived and died for the country to make it what it was today because that was best for Koreans. if they were faced with a similar situation again, they'd buckle up and make it happen.

While the younger generation is getting more individualistic you can still see the duty in them when push comes to shove.

Re:Send in the subs

[Anonymous Coward]

We're talking about a broke country, a complete basket case of an economy

I'm confused - are you talking about North Korea or the US here?

Re:Send in the subs

[Anonymous Coward]

Evidently neither you nor your West German friends are investors. When the Berlin wall fell and Eastern Europe opened up every single multinational company began salivating since the enormous growth potential was so blatantly obvious that there was certainly no shortage of interested investors that wanted a share of the growing market. The same would obviously happen in Korea as well. South Korean and multinational companies would pile as much money as they could into North Korea since it would be such an opportunity. Consumers wouldn't be able to buy much at first but with the functions of society provided by South Korea, it would be a safe investment in a growing market. In mature markets, competition is fierce since when all consumers e.g. have mobile phones, service providers have to lure customers away from each other because there are no new customers. Other markets are very risky since the societies are so unstable. However, when a market is as pristine as North Korea would be and at the same time stable it is an extremely good investment opportunity. Furthermore, in such a reunification scenario there wouldn't be any such problems as in Eastern Europe where some considered the country being "sold out" to foreign companies since South Korean companies would still be Korean companies. And delivery of humanitarian aid, which South Korea already does, would become much, much easier, of course and thus such South Korean government resources could be put to better use.

Re:Send in the subs

[hcdejong]

Still, there was a massive cost to the German reunification, see e.g. this article. The Bundesrepublik spent DM 1 trillion on this over the first 10 years. 20 years after reunification, eastern Germany is still struggling.

And that's with a society that was functioning reasonably before. North Korea won't be a market worth operating in for years because nobody can afford anything. There aren't many assets worth selling or investing in either.

Re:Send in the subs

[Anonymous Coward]

The Bundesrepublik spent DM 1 trillion on this over the first 10 years. 20 years after reunification, eastern Germany is still struggling.

Sure, but Eastern Germany is certainly doing better than they would as East Germany.

And that's with a society that was functioning reasonably before. North Korea won't be a market worth operating in for years because nobody can afford anything.

The key question is education and whilst people in North Korea are indoctrinated, they're not completely uneducated. If they can put their skills to use and produce something of value, that value will materialize in a functioning economy unlike the planned system.

There aren't many assets worth selling or investing in either.

A lot of East German military hardware was sold to many different European countries and that army was normal for an Eastern European country. The North Korean army on the other hand is the third largest in the world and would be reduced with two orders of magnitude or so. Thus they would have a shitload of military hardware to sell.

All this is of course pure speculation since I don't think anything will happen anytime soon.

Truth hurts.

[sethstorm]

and Shin declined to comment on the full extent of the work his company has outsourced to SEK, a state-run animation studio of North Korea

The hallmark of outsourcing, dishonesty. Shin needs to come clean first.

That's what you get for Third World offshoring. Yes, that means South Korea too.

Re:Truth hurts.

[SailorSpork]

South Korea? 3rd world? I bet you think the Japanese still live in mud huts, too. A quick look placed South Korea at ~$18,000 GDP per capita, only about half of the US. North Korea is ~$1,000 per capita. If you call South Korea 3rd world, you're calling countries with similar economic profiles like Portugal and most of Eastern Europe 3rd world as well.

Re:Truth hurts.

[hedwards]

That's an insult to the third world. North Korea is worse than most third world nations in pretty much every way.

Re:Truth hurts.

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn to read before you comment. He was calling North Korea 3rd world, not South Korea.

Re:Truth hurts.

[TheClarkster]

Um, wow. He was talking about South Korea outsourcing to North Korea, calling North Korea 3rd world.

Re:Truth hurts.

[neumayr]

GDP per capita is a poor indicater for a country's development.
Guess I should add I'm not calling South Korea 3rd world, since you tend to jump to that conclussion.

Re:Truth hurts.

[blackraven14250]

I find it remarkable that a South Korean company is outsourcing to North Korea, to be honest.

Re:Truth hurts.

[theheadlessrabbit]

That's what you get for Third World offshoring. Yes, that means South Korea too.

South Korea? 3rd world?

I was watching TV on my cellphone while riding the subway. I could hit record, change channels, go back, rewind, hit play. And this was back in 2007. And it cost me less than $30/month.
My classroom had 2 giant interactive touch screen displays.
This was a public school in a small village in the middle of nowhere, not some rich urban private school.

The minimum wage might be low, and the work hours long, but from what I saw, the standard of living for a middle-class Korean family is on about the same as any middle-class North American family. (although the lower-class Koreans do seem to have it worse than North Americans do.)

To me, calling a nation full of people with PVRs in their pockets "3rd world" is ridiculous.

Re:Truth hurts.

[GiveBenADollar]

GDP per capita may not indicate development, but when it does not it does indicate social divide. Either a country is not developed enough to produce things in volume, or it does produce things in volume but there are only an elite few who are doing it and everyone else lives like a pauper. Remember GDP includes things like food and covers EVERYTHING made by a country not just things exported. I'm not saying South Korea is a 3rd world country either, just that GDP does mean something.

Re:Truth hurts.

[the_humeister]

I'm not too sure about that. Sierra Leone, Liberia, Somalia, or North Korea. Which one of those four would you rather live in?

Re:Truth hurts.

[Froomb]

To me, calling a nation full of people with PVRs in their pockets "3rd world" is ridiculous.

Amen. Ride the green subway line in southern Seoul during rush hour and note how at least three out of four commuters are using their wired-in gadgets. More to economic point, South Korea is a member of the rich countries clubs, including the OECD and is hosting the G20 summit next month. I'm not sure what definition the "3rd world" held by grandfather poster is, but South Korea is not it. Try the Philippines, Laos, Myanmar, Nepal, etc. and s/he'd be much closer.

Re:Truth hurts.

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding. Check this comparison of lights seen from space. North Korea isn't "Third World", it's medieval.

Re:Truth hurts.

[geekoid]

The Simpsons gets money from advertising. Advertising product I may buy. I don't mind paying the addition 10 cents of product increase if that's what it takes for them to keep the animation in the US. Honestly, if it mean that had to double the cost of advertising, I still don't think it would raise the price of goods a dime.

Re:Truth hurts.

[geekoid]

Yes, it's a 3rd world country. Maybe you need to look up the definitions of third world? Or , you know, keep looking like an idiot.

I have no idea why you think mud huts have anything to do with it.

With the exceptions of the big cities, the Asian Tigers still have large undeveloped areas.

Sorry, you deserve all the flak you get and more

[sethstorm]

Shin was disappointed. The satire, he and other animators have since argued, gave the impression that Asian artists slave away in subpar sweatshops when, in fact, they animate much of The Simpsons every week in high-tech workshops in downtown Seoul. "Most of the content was about degrading people from Korea, China, Mexico and Vietnam," Shin fumed. "If Banksy wants to criticize these things ... I suggest that he learn more about it first."

Perhaps Shin should learn more about the First World, and what it knows about those countries. It isn't good.

Besides, if Banksy went to do his research, he'd get endless varieties of the same Potemkin Village. Not the actual conditions that Shin is wrong about on the large scale..

Banksy is right and you know it.

[sethstorm]

The problem is that they're "among, not "are". More people in the US/UK get what those countries reserve for the few and well connected.

In the US, we don't need Potemkin Villages, but those countries sure do.

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[nacturation]

In the US, we don't need Potemkin Villages, but those countries sure do.

Oddly enough, I initially read that as Pokemon Villages and was quite glad I've never experienced such an abomination.

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[Shikaku]

Goddamn it Japan, instead of making this statement forlorn like it should be, I am thinking of a stupidly giant video game character that likes to pierce the heavens.

HEAVENLY POTEMKIN BUSTA!

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

I am genuinely sorry that I read your post.

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[shaitand]

Why is this being marked troll?

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this being marked troll?

Ask a migrant farmworker in the U.S.? Those "Potemkin villages" pop up in unusual places, if not in identical form.

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[Gizzmonic]

Yeah, everyone knows the true humorists just regurgitate Simpsons or Family Guy quotes. How dare he suggest that 'reading comprehension' jokes are hackneyed! I, for one, welcome our new reading comprehension joke overloads!

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[MoellerPlesset2]

The problem is that they're "among, not "are". More people in the US/UK get what those countries reserve for the few and well connected. In the US, we don't need Potemkin Villages, but those countries sure do.

WTF? Are you seriously lumping together North and South Korea in terms of living standards?
Did I miss something? When did South Korea cease to be a first-world democracy?
You don't need to be 'well-connected' to buy something in South Korea. You go to the store, and you buy it. It's a friggin market-economy.

Making 1/3 of a US wage does not mean you're a developing nation. People in Portugal make 1/3 of the average US salary,
if you make a raw dollar comparsion, and they aren't starving. They have homes, cars, computers, phones, etc. Same in South Korea.
Maybe not two cars, and maybe not the latest computer, and maybe a smaller home, etc. But they're by no means poor.

By all means, speak up on behalf of the North Koreans, who have no say in their government or situation, but talking that way about South Korea is just condescending.
They're one of the richest nations in the world, and the second-richest nation in Asia.

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[nacturation]

Oddly enough, I initially read that as Pokemon Villages and was quite glad I've never experienced such an abomination.

Hahahahahaha! Bravo sir, bravo! Reading comprehension jokes are always so original and hilarious. Some people say that if you've seen one, you've seen all of them, or that it's right there in black-and-white that it doesn't really say "Pokemon", but they just don't have your special sense of humor.

My special sense of honor? Oh, wait...

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

More people in the US/UK get what those countries reserve for the few and well connected.

South Korea is actually a more advanced country both technologically and economically than either the UK or the US. Given the unemployment rate in the latter countries, I think it's places like London and New York that are the Potemkin Villages. Take a trip to Glasgow or Detroit the next time you're in these places and see the Banksky intro behind the screen.

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[timmarhy]

banksy is a fucking idiot. south korea is an affluent nation with all the mod cons you or i have. making 1/3 the US salary doesn't mean shit, it's not an apples for apples comparison. but go right ahead don't let facts get in the way of your blind hate and ignorance.

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[ffreeloader]

The problem is that they're "among, not "are". More people in the US/UK get what those countries reserve for the few and well connected.

In the US, we don't need Potemkin Villages, but those countries sure do.

You mind explaining this? How is it a failure to be among the best? Magic Johnson, Bob Cousy, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, and John Stockton are among the best basketball players the NBA has ever known. They're each failures because they are "among", but not "are", the best?

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[mjwx]

if you make a raw dollar comparison, and they aren't starving.

Plus things get a lot cheaper being that close to China and SE Asia. Electronics in Korea can easily cost half of what they do in the west.

Paying 1/3 in wages means you cut 2/3 of the cost of keeping someone in store to sell something or to move it. The cost of manpower accounts for quite a bit of prices in the west.

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nay, sir. A TRUE humorist always prefaces his jokes with "Obligatory XKCD".

Re:Banksy is right and you know it.

[kriston]

I am compelled to demand that you read, or at least enjoy, this comic about animation shops in North Korea:
http://www.amazon.com/Pyongyang-Journey-North-Guy-Delisle/dp/1896597890

Re:Asians

[Fieryphoenix]

Sounds to me less insult and more comedic hyperbole. Not an attempt to depict

Satire.

[Seumas]

Does anyone in Korea understand what SATIRE fucking is?

Re:Satire.

[WrongSizeGlass]

Does anyone in Korea understand what SATIRE fucking is?

Isn't that when you get screwed by a comedian?

Re:Satire.

[PietjeJantje]

Sure they do. I don't think it was very good satire though, it was a little bit too easy, and going for dramatic effect and sympathy of the cause of improving the labor conditions of etc. etc..., of something far way.. now what would have made it good and art is if he had dared to satire the Simpson's own blood, by focusing on the American animators who lost their jobs, went on the become pizza delivery men and women, had to give up their houses because of the mortgage, and started the whole world economy crisis - except for South Korea where they keep increasing their living standards and have surpassed us on several levels already.

Re:Satire.

[readin]

Does anyone in Korea understand what SATIRE fucking is?

Isn't that when you get screwed by a comedian?

No, its when you get screwed by a half-man half-goat. It's illegal in most countries.

Re:Satire.

[wierd_w]

No, thats a Satyr. Honest mistake, really. I can totally see how that might happen-- wait, not I cant. Nevermind.

Re:Satire.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you're someone to whom the title "Men Who Stare At Goats" has a quite different meaning. ;)

Re:Satire.

[theheadlessrabbit]

Does anyone in Korea understand what SATIRE fucking is?

I lived/worked in Korea for a year.
One of the first things they told us about the Korean language/culture is that sarcasm does not exist.
That's not exactly the same thing as satire, but most of the comedy shows were things like "how many lemons can you squash with your face in 30 seconds" or "how close will you get to a cobra while pouring milk on it's head".
Obviously, as a non-native Korean speaker, I wouldn't get any of the spoken humour if I came across it, but I would be able to tell something was going on if a character spoke and the audience started laughing. I never had that experience. From what I saw, satire and sarcasm weren't the comedic norm. slapstick was.

Re:Satire.

[trytoguess]

No clue, but satire is supposed to contain at least a grain of truth. If a country with better labor laws than the U.S created a similar animation depicting the country as a third world hovel.. Well, I won't be offended, but I could certainly understand if it pisses people off.

Re:Satire.

[Seumas]

The intro wasn't aiming at garnering sympathy and calling attention to some horrible situation in Korea. It was a piece of satire which poked fun at the whole "Simpsons farm out animation to Korean sweatshops" thing.

Seriously, did the fact that it was so ridiculously over the top not make it clear to people that it was satire and self-parody? The entire POINT of the intro was how silly the perception some people have of the Korean animation-shops supposedly is.

Re:Satire.

[Seumas]

They weren't implying that Korea is as it was depicted in the animation. How that went over people's heads astounds me. When I saw it the week it came out, I just sort of shrugged and thought it was sad how many years it has been since the Simpsons had managed to be edgy and interesting and how this was such a bland attempt at humor.

The Simpsons poking fun at the idea that they are responsible for some sort of animation-sweat-shop from the dark ages operating in Korea that tortures unicorns is the same style of humor as if Barack Obama made a joke about his birth certificate. Not because he's saying "I'm not really an American har har har!", but because he'd be attempting to humorously highlight ludicrous the implication is.

Re:Satire.

[PietjeJantje]

What exactly in the phrase "Sure they do" makes you think people don't get satire and self-parody. And is this from an American? Irony is satire explained by an American as if only he understands the concept. I had to LOL. Next look up bigotry.

Re:Satire.

[trytoguess]

Poking fun at animation sweat shops may or may not be funny, but it isn't satire. The whole point of that is to mock or exaggerate negative things to educate and/or cause change. When has Korean/Asian animation studio practices needed to be scrutinized for controversy and corruption? It'll need to be pretty blatant if folks in the West know about it.

So if it aint satire what exactly is it? I'd go for needless negative portrayal of Korean/Asian animation studios analogous to criticizing American labor issues by portraying us as slaves. Too over the top to be taken seriously perhaps, but not a good thing either.

Re:Satire.

[UnanimousCoward]

Your comment it telling. Lumping all Koreans into the "misremembered" bucket. That's exactly why kind of SATIRE is dangerous, because the unwashed masses that watch the Simpsons (as opposed to the well-informed /. crowd) will NOT take it as tongue-and-cheek, but rather lump all Asians together as those slanty-eyed, gray-wearing drones that Banksy depicts. Satire like the Onion is different since it is directed to a self-selecting crowd. Satire in the mainstream adds to dangerous stereotyping, shit perpetuated by the mainstream media that Asian-Americans have been fighting for decades.

Re:Satire.

[91degrees]

It's a good question. Is there a culture of irony and satire in Korea? Different countries do have different forms of humour after all. Even between very similar cultures such as the US and Britain, there are some types of joke that simply don't translate.

Re:Asians

[jaymzter]

How would you like it if your job, country and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired? There's really something wrong when people feel proud about how much guilt they have or how much they can hate their own society/culture. This same idiocy even made it into TFS:

...still, South Korean animators make one-third the salaries of their American counterparts...

Where exactly is the requirement that everyone in the world makes the same as their "American counterparts"? Is it because everywhere in the world is the same as America, with the same taxes, costs and currency value? Utter rubbish.

Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we stop comparing wages based on actual dollar figures, and compare based on standard of living (or something else)?

I make 25% less as a System Administrator in a small remote town than were I working in downtown Toronto.

But my house costs $200,000 as opposed to $1,000,000 for a house or condo in Toronto. Do I bitch that I don't make the same wage? No, because overall I I have the same standard of living / quality of life as everyone else (even better, I have a place to park!).

Yes, food costs about the same (maybe 3% less), cars cost the same, etc, but when a good 40% of what I spent my income on (house, property taxes) is far less, it works.

Re:Can we stop...

[hedwards]

I'd mod you up if I could. Wages tend to mirror the cost of living to some extent. And while not all expenses are equivalent, some things are difficult or impossible to avoid. You're going to pay for food and some sort of shelter in virtually any case, same goes for health care and other basic necessities. It really doesn't matter whether you pay for them individually or via taxation per se, just the total amount you're paying for cost of living.

Re:Can we stop...

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Can we stop comparing wages based on actual dollar figures, and compare based on standard of living (or something else)?

How about the lack of standard of living?

No minimum wage, no pesky labor laws, and no inconvenient safety regulations. That's where the real savings are realized.

Re:Can we stop...

[neumayr]

GDP is a bad factor for a country's prosperity, right. For more reasons than what that figure can actually buy, it also doesn't say anything about the social infrastructure, sustainability of the economy, how that wealth is distributed...
It's been a bad factor for a very long time, but it seems every replacement is outdated by the time it approaches mainstream use.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen. I get sick and tired of "they live on a dollar a day".

No they don't. They have a barter economy, and they can do things that we can't. In particular, they can throw up a shack on land they don't own! They steal electricity in some of these places, and the wires are so disorganized and/or the electric company is too busy to track them down and stop it.

I'm not saying I want to trade my apartment and my electricity bill for a leaky shack that might burn down due to faulty wiring. I'm just saying it's not as bad as "a dollar a day" would lead you to believe.

The money economy just doesn't matter that much in some of these places. Saying they live on a dollar a day is like saying that the average American only has 17 Canadian cents. Actually... since I set aside the Canadian money in my change, I probably have a good deal more. Look at me, I'm Canadian rich, or Canadian poor depending on how you look at it.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

In both those places you've got the same national health care, and the same national safety and labour standards. Probably the same access to public schools too, unless you're _extremely_ remote by Canadian standards, which I'm doubting based on the $200k house quote.

Agreed there's more than $$$ to a discussion like this, but your example doesn't bring anything to the table because you're not crossing borders into disparate economies.

Re:Can we stop...

[timeOday]

I make 25% less as a System Administrator in a small remote town than were I working in downtown Toronto. But my house costs $200,000 as opposed to $1,000,000 for a house or condo in Toronto.

While you have a good point, remember this: around the end of your career, you will own a home worth about $200,000, whereas that counterpart in Toronto will own a home worth $1M. He can move to your neighborhood and buy the whole block if he wants, or retire on a ranch. Where I live, it is Californians who are well known for coming into town with truckloads of cash from selling out of expensive markets. Then they take over.

Re:Can we stop...

[Dongbu104]

Can we stop comparing wages based on actual dollar figures, and compare based on standard of living (or something else)?

According to a survey by Mercer, Seoul ranks 14th among large world cities for cost of living. The other U.S. cities in the top 100 are:

New York, NY 27th

Los Angeles, CA 55th

White Plains. NY 83rd

Chicago, IL 91st

San Francisco, CA 93rd

Miami, FL 100th

I think they're justified in having a complaint.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

This overly simplistic point of view ignores both opportunity cost and the cost of capital.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we stop comparing wages based on actual dollar figures, and compare based on standard of living (or something else)?

I make 25% less as a System Administrator in a small remote town than were I working in downtown Toronto.

But my house costs $200,000 as opposed to $1,000,000 for a house or condo in Toronto. Do I bitch that I don't make the same wage? No, because overall I I have the same standard of living / quality of life as everyone else (even better, I have a place to park!).

Yes, food costs about the same (maybe 3% less), cars cost the same, etc, but when a good 40% of what I spent my income on (house, property taxes) is far less, it works.

I make the same in my PhD manager job in a small midwestern American city as I would in downtown San Francisco, but my rent is insignificant. Still, there's absolutely nothing to do and little local culture left. Every 30k-50k city here is an exact copy of the next one over. They each have about 50 restaurants, with maybe 2 of those being local and the other 48 being the same crappy chains as all the other nearby cities. There's a little bit of farm culture which has leaked into the cities to fill the void left when McDonald's killed what came before, and a little bit of folk art and music here and there.

I have a lot more money and thus better savings and better toys than those of you living in a real place. But quality of life? I have to drive a few hours to get anywhere interesting. I do that weekly, but I'd trade half my income to live in a place where I could walk to buy groceries or dinner.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think they're justified in having a complaint.

The only reason the animation is done there is because it's a lot cheaper. Maybe the problem is that US wages are too high. In fact one of the United States' biggest problems is that people are overpaid and have an absurd sense of entitlement. That's why the rest of the world will slowly pass it by.

Re:Can we stop...

[OnePumpChump]

But it is a good indicator of how much wealth there is available to be extracted from a country by people who are above worrying about cost of living.

Re:Can we stop...

[bm_luethke]

True to some extent - but as someone who lives in said small comunity here is what happens:

Person A - which you describe - comes in and buys a great deal of things of up. They have all sorts of "grand" ideas about making this a cheap place to live that is just like home. They distribute that money to 10 or more locals and then go to city/county council meetings and expect to be "heard" (and sometimes give good money to be done so too). Turns out that not only did they have to give away thier money to do so but they now are a handful against the crowd and they ... fail in their quest. Life goes on, there is one transplant amongst the myriad that like where they are and unless they can convince the locals that their way is the Right One they aren't going to work.

At best they may form their own local groups and our system of trying to concentrate power locally may allow them to make their own regulations (I can certainly point you towards communities that do so), but even then they end up not working. For instance, we have a huge issue with Game - namely deer that eat everything and stand in the road (which them get hit by cars and cause serious injury and deaths). Most communities allow them to be hunted under managed guidelines - they get good fees from licenses and the population is controlled. Not so from those 1m+ transplants from California - deer need to be trapped and moved elsewhere. Turns out "elsewhere" doesn't want your deer as they have all they can deal with now - so they are stuck with them. There isn't a large enough portion of Tennessee they can buy to move them.

Ultimately there is a point where economies of scale just do not work. For people who are in the "poor" areas it is difficult to move up (in some cases the sale of your property - even in 100% is in equity - isn't enough for a down payment for the new area) and for those in "rich" areas they think they cant take over. In the end you still end up being one person - in some economies that can mean a lot, in others not so much. In our system - of which your post is in response too - it turns out we are one person and money rarely gets as much as people think it does. After all in order to leverage it you *must* use at and at that point you empower *many* who do not feel the way you do (and if they do feel the way you do, then it wasn't your money that got it done). In South Korea - no idea. Even then in the long run the influx of money (and resultant flow of jobs from one expensive area to another cheap one) will only stabilize global costs.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your right sir, I make too much money.. its the same reason I cant afford to buy enough healthy food some weeks.

Perhaps you cant teach me how to live on 2 dollars a day. I mean my hard work cant be worth much more then that when the corporations are raking in billions in profits. I mean hell they are practically starving themselves right?!?!

Fuck off troll.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody said anything about $2 a day. But if it costs 1/3 as much to do something in another country then clearly the US is pricing itself out of that market. You don't have to trot the ridiculous extremes in your post to see that obvious truth.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

What you ask is in part "Can people start using a much more accurate and more complex calculation rather than an extremely simplistic rule of thumb which is often wrong?", and in part "Can people stop taking advantage of accessible memes and frames ("what I make compared to what he makes") in order to strengthen the case of their argument and only use honest arguments with integrity instead?"

Hence although I agree 100% I am writing this in bitter recognition that it's unlikely to change any time soon.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

Spot on.

You know the saying there are lies, dam lies and statistics. This is another example of people not using numbers in a way that makes sense.

I lived in Toronto before moving to the US. In the US I earn more then I did when I lived in Toronto. Does this mean Toronto has slave wages?

I have also spent a fair amount of time in China (I own a house there). The Chinese people earn a LOT less but things there are very cheap compared to Toronto or New York so its not fair to do a pure "I earn $X a year and they don't".

Its a Cost of living thing.

Look up "big mac index". The theory is the big mac is available almost world wide, so its price should somewhat reflect "purchasing power".

Cost of a big mac in USD:

China: $1.83
Canada: $3.36
US: $3.54

Keep in mind Big Macs are considered expensive in China like most "western" things.

Re:Can we stop...

[moonbender]

You're overgeneralizing. What you're saying might be true for some areas of the world, but I doubt any of it is true for most urban Chinese. And even if you're living in a shack, often you'll have to pay some sort of rent, possibly not to the owner of the land.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that your argument applies in most situations. Not so for South Korea, and especially Seoul, where condos can go into the millions. Visit Toronto or New York and then travel to Seoul or to Beijing in China and it's like visiting a future world with costs similar to most larger western cities. This is part of the reason (plus culture) that you have so many multiple-generational families under one roof there.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

No it's not. GDP is in many ways a shitty metric since it says nothing about what the "product" actually is. For instance, the cost of recovery efforts from a natural disaster contributes to GDP but you would hardly consider that an increase in wealth would you? Or what e.g. wealthy Brazilians pay for their safety in a country with so much violence due to having pretty much the highest income inequalities in the industrialized world.

Re:Can we stop...

[crossmr]

no, they're not. Those rankings are garbage. I've lived here for 3 years and living here is so cheap compared to anywhere in North America it's not even funny.

Those rankings were mostly done by idiots.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

"[Gross national product] counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for the people who break them. It counts the destruction of the redwood and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and counts nuclear warheads and armored cars for the police to fight the riots in our cities. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children. Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages, the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning, neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country, it measures everything in short, except that which makes life worthwhile."

-Robert F. Kennedy

Re:Can we stop...

[OnePumpChump]

I didn't say it was an indicator of how much wealth exists, I said it was an indicator of how much can be extracted by people who don't give a shit. GDP indicates the value of transactions. It is in those transactions that the opportunity to remove wealth from a group exists. GDP is a very useful measure for the purpose of making the wealthy wealthier.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, your statement "...how much wealth there is available to be extracted from a country..." misled me then.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

We can't because you're directly competing with ones from "downtown Toronto", thanks to the Internet.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're paying interest on that house. And likely on a lot more things, since you don't have as much spare money to throw around. And the stress from living in a big, uncaring city with a shitload of debt? I'd rather be living my working life comfortably than holding out for a few years of retirement and feebleness.

Re:Can we stop...

[Thing 1]

You only pay a lot for health care if you don't understand breathing and fingertips.

Re:Can we stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you! I was thinking the same thing.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

And despite the outrage, it still got made.

Re:Asians

[sethstorm]

It was toned down from the original version.

Can someone explain what "edgy" means?

[Anonymous Coward]

The last decade seems to have passed me by.

TYIA

Re:Can someone explain what "edgy" means?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's an adjective has-been artists/musicians/playwrights tack on to their job description to make their increasingly shrill and bizarre works seem relevant to a world that has passed them by.

Re:Asians

[MadAhab]

Well good on you for insulting China. Always a smart rhetorical strategy to deflect on someone else.

Then there's this: "Still, South Korean animators make one-third the salaries of their American counterparts, and Shin declined to comment on the full extend of the work his company has oursourced to SEK, a state-run animation studio of North Korea."

Your outrage is a little excessive given that. And you could have addressed that. But didn't. /i got paid 3 times what you did for trolling comment boards //relax, kid, that's satire.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

South Korea is among the most technologically advanced and progressive countries on earth, so to portray it as if it were China is a gross insult.

China is among the most technologically advanced and progressive countries on earth, so to portray it as if it were North Korea is a gross insult.

Youtube link

[Tapewolf]

For those who don't get to see anything on Hulu, this appears to be the intro in question:

Moneybart intro

Re:Youtube link

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks, mod the parent up.

Re:Youtube link

[meuhlavache]

Or this more prettier one

Re:Youtube link

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the first one gives a better impression of what it is like to work for 20C Vulpes vulpes

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you like it if your job, country and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired?

I don't think everything about my country is grand. I understand there are many deficiencies. Therefore I would have no problem with it being parodied in one way or another. I complain about things I don't like in my country (and my "culture" insofar as I consider there to be one), so why would I have a problem with somebody else mocking it?

I don't take "pride" in having problems with my country. But that doesn't mean I have to pretend that it's lollipops and rainbows. It's perfectly valid to criticize one's own culture in areas one does not like about it. Why do you have a problem with this?

So, yeah.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Shin declined to comment on the full extent of the work his company has outsourced to SEK, a state-run animation studio of North Korea."

O RLY?

Seems to me that the gentleman doth protest too much.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

China is among the most technologically advanced and progressive countries on earth, so to portray it as if it were North Korea is a gross insult.

Technologically advanced, maybe, depending on how you look at it, as there is tremendous disparity between the cities and the countryside in that regard. But progressive? No one in their right mind would try to argue that, including the Chinese.

Re:Asians

[hedwards]

I haven't seen it, but I'm curious as to why virtually all cartoons these days are colored in South Korea. Strikes me that depicting it in such an allegorical way is somewhat appropriate.

Being a colorist is not easy, but it's hardly in the same league creatively with the folks that do the writing and modeling for the series. It sounds like it's away of pointing out that it's like working in the salt mines of the cartoon industry.

Re:Asians

[MoonBuggy]

The summary says that the South Korean animators are re-outsourcing an unspecified amount (could be a majority for all we know) of the workload to North Korea; for all you know it was this practise that was being commented on, not the South Korean studios themselves.

Or maybe...

[Black Parrot]

...it's just another Simpson's Halloween "horror" story.

Re:Or maybe...

[uofitorn]

I think the real "horror" story here is that the Treehouse of Horror Halloween special will not be aired until November 7th because of post-season baseball!

Re:Or maybe...

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been happening since the first few seasons..

Re:Or maybe...

[geekoid]

I hear you. I'm fucking 46 and god damn sports reality TV shows are STILL interrupting my cartoons^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Animated features.

There is like 20 fucking cable shows just for sports. Move the damn games to one of those channels.

.

Re:Asians

[AnonymousClown]

I'm not sure what your point was in the beginning, but doesn't the whole Simpsons show stereotype the US and Americans? The whole show is about making fun of Americans and our society.

I agree with the second part completely.

Interesting...

[RedBear]

What blows my mind is that there is a supposed "animation studio" in North-frickin-Korea. I thought they barely even had electricity up there, much less any sort of higher technology trade going on with the rest of the world. Interesting. Shows what I know.

Re:Interesting...

[gman003]

North Korea is an... odd country. It's mostly a developing nation, with people still struggling to get reliable electricity, and a good chunk of the food is imported since the state-run agriculture is... about as bad as every prior state-run agriculture. But then you've got some parts where it's about equal to the US in the fifties. Namely, anything military, and anything the "Glorious Leader" thinks will make his country seem less backwards. Thus, animation studios, even some video-game studios. And, of course, nuclear weapons.

Re:Interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're interested, check out the comic book Pyongyang: A Journey in North Korea by Guy Delisle (http://www.amazon.com/Pyongyang-Journey-North-Guy-Delisle/dp/1897299214/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1288511829&sr=8-1), written after his experiences directing a studio in the country.

Non-Americans

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who don't live in the Glorious US blessed it be thy name and can't view the video due to annoying IP Restrictions here a link

Re:Non-Americans

[tompaulco]

Maybe I am missing something, but didn't this intro actually already air? It sure sounds very familiar.

Re:Non-Americans

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a message for Hulu: FUCK YOU!

It's so vibrant, and the newest apartment complex

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's so vibrant, and the newest apartment complexes are ridiculously nice."

What's so nice about them?

Re:Asians

[h4rr4r]

Not everything is the same, but all the neat toys are. An iPhone is no cheaper in South Korea than in the states.

Re:Asians

[binarylarry]

yeah but cost of living has to be factored in.

I wouldn't be surprised if animators from South *Dakota* made 1/3 the salaries of the Simpsons animators in california.

Clerks Animated..

[neumayr]

..has done it too, and I'm sure there were others. So why single out The Simpsons? Seems stupid, especially when outsourcing to NK.

Re:Clerks Animated..

[Anonymous Coward]

People *watch* the Simpsons

Re:Clerks Animated..

[neumayr]

Touché

Re:Clerks Animated..

[ildon]

The Clerks version was funnier, too.

It wasn't South Korea

[readin]

It wasn't South Korea in the cartoon, it was China. South Korea doesn't have pandas. (They do have unicorns, but that's a state secret.)

Re:Asians

[digitalchinky]

I take it you've never read uncyclopedia entries about whatever country it is you come from. Lighten up a little, we are all human on the inside.

Re:I'm pretty sure... eh!?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I'm pretty sure that was f-in hilarious!

What are you talking about?

There's no f in hilarious...

The Simpsons do a parody, oh the humanity!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Man everyone needs to lighten up. Anyone else old enough to remember the Bloom County parody "Who plugged Mortimer Mouse"? He had Disney characters chained to drawing boards drawing Rodger Rabbit cartoons. I doubt anyone actually thought they had Disney characters drawing big busted women. I think the Simpson's parody was more about South East Asia in general and not so much South Korea. A lot of what goes on in China is about that bad but they wanted to do a Simpson's parody and they don't do the animation in China.

Even cheaper

[phorm]

Actually, I moved from Toronto to a rather small town too. One thing I've found about the big city is that you really get *screwed* if you're working on salary (which is pretty much the norm). So while you may be making less per-annum, you may actually be making more overall depending on how much extra-time you put in.

As for the costs. Food seems a bit more where I am (no local Chinese market), but not incredibly much. A car may cost the same or a bit more, gas is a little higher, but the cost of insurance is nearly *HALF* that of a bigger city. Houses are obviously cheaper, and parking is free, but that does come as a trade-off for crappy transit. Not that I consider the TTC to be overly great, but at least it took me under an hour to get to work downtown by transit (despite being almost in Scarborough, at the edge of Toronto).

Another big factor is the people. In many big cities the overall attitude seems to be "everyone for himself" followed by that others are fair game. In a smaller city, choices are less, but those who actively screw over the customers tend fare less well. Customer-friendly businesses also tend to get good word-of-mouth.

There are some things I miss about the bigger city, but there's a lot to be said for smaller places too.

Well you see ..

[nu1x]

No. You see, son, unicorns have these horns and .. The life and death of unicorns depicted. Not advisable for little girls.

Also, the title of the anime seems misspelled.

Re:Well you see ..

[linuxrocks123]

Okay, before anyone clicks that link, note that it is weird even relative to other Japanese cultural exports. I'd put it at about the level of tentacle porn, but more disturbing. Yes, more disturbing than tentacle porn. Oh, and it's NSFW.

I'm going to just say you probably don't want to click that. And even if you're not at work, you'll be reaching for brain bleach afterwards. You've been warned.

---linuxrocks123

Re:Well you see ..

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't seem extraordinarily disturbing to me. But you certainly wouldn't want kids to be watching it, just in case they start ripping off "mushrooms"...

I was actually a bit surprised she didn't kill the lady unicorn as well for her mushroom, would seem more "typical" :).

Outdated reference

[Fartypants]

"Still, South Korean animators make one-third the salaries of their American counterparts"

Er... what American counterparts?

Re:Outdated reference

[gman003]

Pixar.

Re:Outdated reference

[kiddygrinder]

i'm guessing that's a joke, but it's kind of funny to watch the extra footage on up compared to monsters vs aliens, for up they actually flew the main animators down to look at the environment they were supposed to be animating for a couple months, in monsters vs aliens, they talk about how they tried to make a good movie despite their bosses trying to screw down on every possible dollar they could. i'm not sure where i'm going with this, but i found it amusing.

Re:Outdated reference

[XnavxeMiyyep]

And, strangely enough, almost everything produced by Pixar is an instant hit, loved by children, adults, and critics.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you like it if your job, country and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired?.

Wait, isn't the point of the Simpsons to stereotype America?

Re:Asians

[Scrameustache]

How would you like it if your job, country and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired?

How many vacations are they from having insulted every nation on earth? Aside from insulting the U.S.A. with every frame of Homer since 1989...

"Gotta go: Quebec's got the bomb!" -Clinton
"Our money sure is gay!" -Colombian Kidnaper
"And so on, and so forth." -Scrameustache

Re:Asians

[PopeRatzo]

South Korea is among the most technologically advanced and progressive countries on earth

You forget that the Asian workers, smiling and happy as they may be in their productive 1/3 western salary paradise, have taken away jobs from Western workers, who could never live on competitive salaries. So one country's gain is very directly another country's loss. You don't like the angry satire, but it strikes home for a lot of the people for whom The Simpsons is made. That's the nature of good satire: someone always feels the heat.

I'm glad that South Korean society is doing so wonderfully. America put a fair amount of investment into the place in the 1950's in both money and American blood. I'm glad it's all working out. But things aren't working out so well for us over here, and I seriously doubt that there will be many South Koreans lining up to help out the United States, without whom South Korea would be very likely be run by a little shit with big square glasses that has so badly fucked up their neighbors to the North. Please excuse us all to hell if there's are some sore feelings over here when people are out of work because their jobs happen to be passing through South Korea on their race to the bottom. And enjoy it while you can because there's going to come a place where people are happy to work for less than South Koreans and the white knight corporatists who opened plants in South Korea will pull the plug on you without a second thought, just like they did here. Bit of advice: don't spend all your money on consumer electronics. Save a bit or you'll end up like us here in the US, carrying a load of personal and public debt and losing jobs left and right.

South Korea is among the most technologically advanced and progressive countries on earth

America says "You're Welcome".

100% of Japanese Anime is South Korean Made!

[Anonymous Coward]

... enought said.

Everything from story line, story boads, concepts, stype, production, in-beteens, financial agreements, Seiyu ... the list goes on and on.

This is because of the Japanese Government Colonization and Subjugation Policies from the following the Sino-Russia War and the Annexation of South Korea and Manchuria by Japan in the late 1930's. The Deit of Post-War II Japan still has a 1930's mindset regarding South Korea and Manchuria.

Japan still vows slavery for any human being who acknowledges its World sovernty.

Re:100% of Japanese Anime is South Korean Made!

[trytoguess]

Seiyu are voice actors, and need to be "homegrown" so to speak. Japan outsources for the exact same reason America, France, Britain, etc does; it's simply cheaper. And no, the Japanese government has made no such outlandish claims recently.

Streisand Effect

[jamesh]

Where does it say South Korea? Maybe it was the way the faces were drawn or the uniforms, or maybe the Simpsons are animated using labour in South Korea (not something i'm aware of) or some other clue that I missed but it just looked like a generic Asian sweatshop to me. Having kicked up a fuss, the whole world is going to know it was South Korea now, even if that wasn't the intent.

Come on now - we don't know either

[dbIII]

WE genuinely have no idea what goes on in North Korea and can only rely on little bits of information. Even the Chinese mother of a friend of mine that originally came from the place and lived on the other side of the river from North Korea didn't know much more than rumour and a few stories from refugees after it became impossible to contact relatives and unsafe to travel back. The refugees don't seem to know a lot beyond what happens in their own towns - information and movement is tightly controlled and they are flooded with disinformation. North Korea used to export food to China but now survival of many seems to have been dependant on food aid for many years now.
While the older generations know that Kim is not a God the penalties for saying so appear to be severe, so it looks like we've got a couple of generations of highly xenophobic worshippers of Kim the God King that blame all problems on the USA, Japan etc.
So to sum up we don't really know either so even the above is thrown together from what journalists tried to find out on escorted visits or from refugees that only got to see a small portion of the picture (which is very scary on it's own - not being permitted to talk to relatives in other parts of the country etc.). We can only guess at what is inside from what effects it has on the outside, so we know something horrible is within but we really don't know how bad.

Re:Come on now - we don't know either

[Anonymous Coward]

Pyonyang, a graphic novel by Guy Delisle is an outsider's take on N. Korean life. Fittingly enough the French-canadian author came over for a few months to supervise animation production for a children's show. I haven't read the GN in a bit, but my impression was how much they hid the day to day life of the people,and how foreigners lived in fairly strict isolation. Compelling but frustrating though as he dances around a lot of the harder issues.

Re:Asians

[MacGyver2210]

Yes, because Unicorns exist! And Fox uses their horns to punch DVD holes!

Re:Asians

[shaitand]

"Where exactly is the requirement that everyone in the world makes the same as their "American counterparts"?"

Say what you will but the bottom line is that this an American show created by American talent but the American animators are going hungry while South Koreans work their jobs.

Re:Asians

[mybecq]

How would you like it if your job, country and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired?

Apparently Americans have been liking it for the past 20+ years.

Re:Asians

[bunbuntheminilop]

In that case, wouldn't it have to be comedic?

Re:Asians

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

How would you like it if your job, country and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired?

I'm an American. I read about how I'm fat, arrogant, ignorant, overworked, and lazy every day. I don't even get the benefit of any of those stereotypes being that I use an old haggard unicorn to bring me my beer. I'm not very sympathetic on this one.

I rather think this targets China

[erroneus]

Without knowing much of the detail provided here, I would have assumed the depiction was China. But the general impression I get is that much of Asia's mass-labor forces are more or less like this... well not exactly like this, but the impression is about the same when compared to any remaining mass-labor forces in the U.S. I happen to work for a Japanese company at present and I have to say, they are a LOT less fun. In fact, my boss is Korean and he seems to feel very strongly against the notion of "convenience" when working as he has said quite specifically that the company is not here for our convenience, that we are here for the company's convenience. That philosophy speaks volumes to me.

My company is most certainly "less fun" because of the asian notion of what a workplace should be like. And yes, "overtime" is expected and nearly everyone is exempt.

Re:I rather think this targets China

[GiveBenADollar]

So the Simpsons producers/writers can't tell the difference between China and South Korea? Better not tell the South Korean animators I bet that would be a much bigger insult!

Re:I rather think this targets China

[1s44c]

So the Simpsons producers/writers can't tell the difference between China and South Korea?

For the most part Americans can't tell the difference between China, South Korea, Japan, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, or anywhere else in Asia. They seem to think it's all China.

Re:I rather think this targets China

[Anonymous Coward]

There are no penguins in Finland and see what happened...

Re:Asians

[MichaelSmith]

As an Australian I thought the satire in Bart vs Australia fell on its arse as well but we can see that The Simpsons does this to everybody so it would be wrong for us to be left out.

Re:Asians

[tompaulco]

You're right. I mean they get every single detail of American society exactly right, from the fat, lazy balding guy who loses his job every week and spends every night in a bar, to the town that has the tallest mountain in the world, a gorge comparable to the grand canyon, frozen winters, a vast desert, picturesque beaches, is landlocked, and so forth. Yet somehow, they manage to get the state of Korean technology wrong. Go figure.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

PFFFFT.

"You are welcome"?

Fuck off. USA didn't fight in Korea for Korea's benefit. They fought for their own. Now South Korea is being used as an US military base and South Korea is paying for it.

Now stop spreading false sentiments. It was USA who divided the country in half in the first place.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you like it if your job, country and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired?

Given that The Simpsons is meaningless, vapid entertainment I wouldn't mind so much. It only bothers the people who think cartoons are real.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

Many people in this thread are quick to decry the intro. But have they actually watched it? Take a look.

The conditions depicted are atrocious. Ridiculously so. It's clearly a joke. I mean, a unicorn being used to punch holes in DVDs? Kittens tossed into a wood chipper to make filler for toys? The terrible conditions are so over-the-top that it's pretty clearly not meant to represent reality. One could view it as social commentary regarding poor working conditions in Asian sweat-shots. Or, one could view it as commentary on the ridiculous notions that well-meaning, but ultimately uninformed, westerners develop in their heads about working conditions in Asian.

It seems to me that the satire is meant to insult at many levels (this is typical for The Simpsons, which tries to make fun of as many different people as possible). The intro is making fun of FOX for using cheap overseas labor. It's drawing attention to the comparatively worse working conditions in those outsourced labor markets. And it's making fun of people's erroneous/exaggerated notions of how bad those labor conditions actually are. And it's just trying to be silly with ridiculous depictions of misery. It's comedy, after all.

You may not think it's particularly funny. But after watching it, it should be pretty clear how absurd they were intentionally being.

Re:Asians

[GiveBenADollar]

I could be working in New York City right now for the same salary I am now and be considered poor, where I'm at it's an awesome salary. Cost of living compared to wages means a whole lot more than wages outright. Sure I might not have all the toys I could, but neither can most New Yorkers. Also I doubt that the iPhone is the cool thing in South Korea after all they develop the new cool toys, look at Japan! If I could get a better job that payed half of what I earn now in a place with a quarter of the cost of living I'd jump on it.

Par for the course?

[Have Brain Will Rent]

Shin argued, gave the impression that Asian artists slave away in subpar sweatshops when they actually animate

... in par sweat-shops? Subpar sweatshops not having all the amenities of an average sweatshop?

Groening's real message... don't watch!

[Have Brain Will Rent]

It seems to me that Matt Groening was trying to tell us that the Simpsons and other Fox products are produced using slave labour and that we should therefore stop watching all such products since the existence of those products depend on other human beings suffering. I'm with ya Matt! No more 20th Century Fox products for me!!!

Re:Groening's real message... don't watch!

[kiddygrinder]

does matt even work on simpsons any more? if he does i'll bet you 50 kerbillion dollars he wishes the thing would just die about 50000 times more than you do.

Re:Groening's real message... don't watch!

[drinkypoo]

I'll take that action. Did you ever read his labor of love Live is Hell? When I saw the Banksy intro I almost cried tears of hilarity because it really took me back to the sense of humor of those comics. Yet honestly, most Simpsons episodes contain at least one old-style dig at consumer culture, and some are just packed full of them. I think Groening enjoys his soap box. It's not like he needs more money.

Re:Asians

[Jafafa Hots]

You know what?
You wouldn't have batted an eyelash if he had used the same exact depictions but it was supposed to be taking place at a Walmart in Lubbock, not somewhere in Asia.

Why? The difference is that if placed in Walmart in Lubbock, it would have clearly been meant to have been judged as satire and not as a depiction of reality.

Whereas when placed in Asia, it is clearly meant to be judged as satire and not an actual depiction of reality - but the satire is missed by those blinded by a defensive reflex to whine about anything related to a place they have feelings of insecurity, self-consciousness, nationalism or racial pride in.

(Actually in the Lubbock example there would be a few whining idiots from TX complaining that "Lubbock isn't really like that!" but we've learned not give people like that the time of day.

Re:Asians

[Swave An deBwoner]

How would you like it if your job, country and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired? There's really something wrong when people feel proud about how much guilt they have or how much they can hate their own society/culture. This same idiocy even made it into TFS:

...still, South Korean animators make one-third the salaries of their American counterparts...

Where exactly is the requirement that everyone in the world makes the same as their "American counterparts"? Is it because everywhere in the world is the same as America, with the same taxes, costs and currency value? Utter rubbish.

Well, according to:

http://www.ninecash.net/global-cost-of-living-rank-of-300-international-locations-world-wide-september-2010.html

which provides global "cost of living" rankings, Seoul is ranked #24, with New York at #21, San Francisco at #63, Boston at #66, Washington DC at #77, all the way down to Indianapolis at #279. So, yes, I guess in this case it's a fair comparison.

Re:Asians

[DDLKermit007]

Ummm ok...lets factor in COL. In the list of top 50 most expensive cities, Seoul ranks 14! To give you some perspective, New York is 27 with Los Angeles bringing up 55. Please do a little research before talking about COL.

http://www.citymayors.com/features/cost_survey.html

I really wish we could have seen the full unbridled version of the opening. Maybe some storyboards will surface eventually. I'll bet you almost anything that the North Korean animation operations are pretty substantial given they didn't want to talk about it for good reason, and their conditions I'd bet are pretty horrid. Watch the Simpsons? Support North Korea! Wooooooo what a publicity campaign!

Re:Asians

[DDLKermit007]

Last I checked it was the American Taxpayer that was paying for it. Japan & South Korea got a pretty sweetheart deal getting USA to cover the bulk of their defense. They would be far more like the other surrounding countries if they didn't have free protection they'd both resemble the Philippines allot more if not for it.

Re:Asians

[gmhowell]

I think in the Australia episode (somewhere in the first couple of seasons?) the subject of ridicule wasn't so much Australia as it was stereotypical American views of Australia.

Isn't it a little late to be getting pissy?

[OnePumpChump]

So who animated the edgy Simpsons intro?

Re:Asians

[Cylix]

Not all of us....

Re:It's so vibrant, and the newest apartment compl

[Anonymous Coward]

The really nice ones in Seoul are usually in excellent locations, with easy access to shopping, restaurants and major streets or transit hubs.

In terms of the apartment complexes, usually the immediate area around the buildings are sculpted and manicured, with play areas for children, badminton/tennis courts, community centres, that kind of thing.

Then the apartments themselves are usually well-appointed, with hardwood or occasionally stone tile flooring. The higher end apartments are usually quite spacious, and of course, since they're higher end, they usually have a river view or at least a panoramic view of the city.

Re:Asians

[cgenman]

How would you like it if your job, country, and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired?

Isn't that what they air every week?

Banksy got a high profile forum, and he used it to spur discussions about how we treat emerging labor markets. Considering he had a sickly unicorn punching DVD holes, do you really think he was saying "this is the way that it is?" It seems to me like his point was that we take for granted the objects around us, but have a profound ignorance about their origins. And he managed to do this in a way that A: got into a mainstream production, B: got people talking, and C: actually educated people, albeit indirectly. I know far more about the actual conditions in animation shops of South Korea than I had before this intro was released.

Re:Asians

[AvitarX]

http://www.nicerent.com/mn_seoul_real_estate_advenced/advenced_list.asp?strFind=find

Looks like it'd be hard to live on 1/3 of a decent US salary.

(I searched for small (under 700 sqft) 1 bedroom, in high rise)

I know plenty in NYC doing just fine in the 40k/year range (not having a car saves them a whole lot). And they're rents aren't too bad (only a bout 4k/year per a bedroom more than where I am, which is fairly average).

I don't think big cities anywhere have a low cost of living, because the rent is so damned much.

Re:Asians

[korean.ian]

That cost of living index is for American Expatriates. Additionally, the most expensive city is in Angola. From the article's intro:
"29 June 2010: Angola's capital city Luanda has replaced Tokyo as the most expensive city in the world for US expatriates according to the latest Cost of Living Survey from Mercer." I mean, they even have Shanghai ranked higher than NYC.

Having lived in Seoul for 10 years very comfortably on what can be described as a typical salary for the Korean middle class, I will tell you that the cost of living for people who aren't gouging their companies' expense accounts is much cheaper than comparable cities in North America.

Sweatshops everywhere in Santa Ana CALIFORNIA.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what is so-wrong about Sweatshops. These people would be jobless and homeless if it wasn't for their mass-making inexpensive furniture and clothing. By far and wide, they are even the only people actually making anything affordable in America that has domestic cloth fiber or cellulose pulp. I realy don't see why it's bad that people actually hide from State Tax-collectors and ICE and Customs enforcement just so they can make a living in a Sweatshop and make it all in America, rather than ship it overseas for real slave-labor to prevail.

Or I'm just living the American dream, or trying to at-least, because I imagine all these Sweatshop operators are secrectly collecting welfare and HUD while slipping away down a side-street where they continue TRYING to compete against the communist labor they ran-away from. Blame the government and the fraudulent SUPPLY VS DEMAND freekonomy where monopolists control the consumption and perception of availability in-order to rig the Free Market(tm) from ever fixing itself.

Re:Asians

[dafing]

Technologically advanced, maybe, depending on how you look at it, as there is tremendous disparity between the cities and the countryside in that regard.

A remote mountain in Nepal has better 3G service than San Francisco, a large progressive city in "the world's only superpower"...

Asia in general is on the rise, better catch up!

Re:Asians

[Greyfox]

How would you like it if your job, country and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired?

It is, every week...

Re:Asians

[oldhack]

Hush.

Re:Asians

[TheGratefulNet]

Where exactly is the requirement that everyone in the world makes the same as their "American counterparts"?

totally missing the point.

come back in 20 years when YOUR job is gone.

the rest of us have felt this pain and we're *starting* to get angry enough to demand change.

of course, we have no power. the companies are now in control with the government cheering them on. YAY, GO RICH GUYS!

fuck all for the rest.

yeah, we like watching our american culture be reduced right in front of our eyed.

WAKE THE FUCK UP. if we don't begin taking care of our own, you think the ROW will?

come on. be real. or be in a bread line in 20 yrs or less.

Re:Asians

[YttriumOxide]

(I searched for small (under 700 sqft) 1 bedroom, in high rise)

Of course, then there's the matter of deciding what's "small"... 700 square feet = 65 square metres. I currently live in a 1 bedroom apartment with my girlfriend here in Hannover, Germany, and we've got about 60 square metres (645 square feet) which is quite comfortable for the both of us. Living alone before I met her, I had a 45 square metre place (485 square feet) that was more than adequate.
We're expecting our first child in April though, so are now looking for somewhere significantly larger.

I'm aware that people in some other places are used to MUCH larger places. I myself grew up in southern NZ, where the concept of renting anything less than a complete 3 bedroom house never would have crossed my mind - even as a single guy who couldn't possibly have used all that space. It's just a matter of adjusting, and now I really don't know what I'd do with somewhere larger if we weren't having this child.

Re:Asians

[jcl-xen0n]

I haven't seen it, but I'm curious as to why virtually all cartoons these days are colored in South Korea. Strikes me that depicting it in such an allegorical way is somewhat appropriate. Being a colorist is not easy, but it's hardly in the same league creatively with the folks that do the writing and modeling for the series. It sounds like it's away of pointing out that it's like working in the salt mines of the cartoon industry.

Interestingly, a lot of Japanese animation (which, in the past, was traditionally outsourced to Korea) is now being outsourced to places like Vietnam. Not sure if that indicated the Koreans have their hands full doing American animation, or if the other countries are simply cheaper.

Re:Asians

[kiddygrinder]

americans could live quite comfortably on an asian worker's salary if they moved to korea though. on your other comments: no shit, companies are greedy.

Re:Asians

[kiddygrinder]

yeah, the unicorn totally gave it away.

Re:Asians

[kiddygrinder]

i think we broke their access database

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, a unicorn being used to punch holes in DVDs?

Wow, this really is a subpar sweatshop. Making DVDs and not Blurays.

Re:Asians

[kiddygrinder]

i'm pretty sure making cheap crap by hiring the cheapest workers is the american culture atm, maybe you're thinking of the 50's?

Re:Asians

[Restil]

By that standard, they're probably making more than me.

-Restil

3G on a mountain vs san francisco?

[Dever]

have you ever waited for a bus on everest? their public transportation system is atrocious...i had to walk almost 30,000 ft...in the snow

the hillside i live on with a single 3G enabled tower near it has better coverage than most of the world. cities. countries.

and a remote mountain? that's actually a very specific mountain, out of the many 'remote mountains' in the world.

and let me tell you, the night life is teh SUCK

trolled!

you were trolling, riiiiiight?

Re:Asians

[flabbergast]

I think I get the "guilt-ridden nonsense" the parent is talking about. At the bottom of it is the West's (and by West I mean US, Canada, and Europe) perception of everyone else as third world and somehow the West has to "save" the rest of the world.

So, the depiction of cartoonists in "Asia"* as being in what can be aptly described as one of Dante's circles of hell is really condescending. It is a trigger for Western guilt; that idea that the rest of the world is suffering for us, when in reality, a place like South Korea isn't much different from the US.

To put things in a different perspective, S. Korea's GDP is about the same as Spain and they have about the same number of people (49M S. Koreas vs 46M Spaniards). But, you would never depict Spain in the same light as South Korea.

*As an aside, as a person of Korean descent I already knew that the Simpsons was produced in S. Korea, and wasn't particularly happy with the depiction either. Maybe Banksy has been to that side of the planet and was really playing it tongue in cheek, but I doubt it. For me it fits hand in hand with what I've noticed about many of my white friends: Asia is still some ass backwards, third world continent, and differentiating between the cultures and countries is too hard. Its easier to lump all black hair, chinky eyed people together to form a homogeneous group than to understand even the basic history of the region.

Re:Asians

[Zero_Independent]

No noes! Americans are "forcing" North Koreans to draw cartoons. If it wasn't for the Simpsons contract, those animators would be doing some other job, which probably isn't as good a job as cartooning. The thing about sweatshops is that they're better than the alternative.

Re:Asians

[1s44c]

I'm an American. I read about how I'm fat, arrogant, ignorant, overworked, and lazy every day. I don't even get the benefit of any of those stereotypes being that I use an old haggard unicorn to bring me my beer. I'm not very sympathetic on this one.

The American stereotype is: fat, arrogant, ignorant, and lazy. Right or wrong overworked isn't in there.

Oh, and don't forget gun obsessed.

Re:Asians

[shutdown -p now]

It was USA who divided the country in half in the first place.

No, it was USA and USSR. And the alternative would be having the Korean War several years earlier.

Re:Asians

[shutdown -p now]

How would you like it if your job, country and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired?

I'm Russian. I think it would be hilarious.

Re:Asians

[aaarrrgggh]

That survey is based on costs for American expatriates. Completely irrelevant for a local cost-of-living comparison.

Re:Asians

[trytoguess]

Meh, even in that sense I say it's a fail. For some useful info on North Korean animation studios something like "Pyongyang: A Journey in North Korea" (where the author actually lived and worked with N. Korean animators) exists.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

The only reason America is there is because of North Korea. We kind of want a military force near the nuttiest place on Earth. As for Japan, we did kind of forbid them from having an army. Now we're doing everything in our power to reverse that, but damn the Japanese people are divided like hell over whether or not to abolish article nine. Not surprisingly, the Japanese government on the other hand seems intent on bending the living hell out of that pesky rule.

Re:Asians

[blackest_k]

Banksy is quite well travelled e.g the West Bank. He has a great talent for producing funny and thought provoking work. Tongue in cheek, yes he does that, Do you really think he was aiming at south Korea with that intro or at Fox or Rupert Murdoch?

http://www.hmss.com/films/carver/ you might like to read this, in tomorrow never dies Elliot Carver , is often viewed as being based on Rupert Murdoch taken to an extreme. Banksy has started with the premise if Rupert Murdoch was an evil megalomaniac, determined to be as evil as possible how would he produce the Simpsons (if he could get away with it)?

The whole situation is actually pretty funny. Murdoch paid for Banksy to produce the intro , Fox executives thought great we are being cool and trendy having banksy do this intro, obviously no one really thinks the simpsons is produced like that.

The show gets broadcast and there is a bit of a panic as the realisation comes that people do think Murdochs evil empire works that way. Clips get pulled from youtube according to http://www.sheknows.com/entertainment/articles/819130/Banksy-produces-seething-social-commentary-on-The-Simpsons

and now we get the story well the show is outsourced but the Korean animators do live quite well by Korean standards and its not made in a sweatshop. Damage control?

Now as for Korean history, why would people in other countries be taught about that? You probably know nothing of British, Irish or Icelandic history either, no reason for you to know either. Even in the UK for example there is limited teaching of British history and the bad bits are hardly mentioned.

There is a massive disconnect between reality and how actual people live their lives. There are rich and poor all over the world. Come to any western country in any city and you will see that there are people getting by, people making millions, and people begging in the streets.

Apparently there are less homeless people on the streets in the centre of London these days due to the use of Asbo's - Londons getting cleaned up ready for the 2012 Olympics, my source a Lawyer representing some of these people.

You see just to live our own lives we have to largely ignore the plight of people in our own countries, let alone worry about people on the other side of the planet.

You know even the guys who go serve in places like Afghanistan and Iraq most had a choice of unemployment and poverty or joining up.

It's a messed up world we live in, and most of us are just doing the best we can.

Not necessarily

[phorm]

A lot of that depends on how one invests money. The difference between my wage here and what I made in the "big city" isn't actually that difference. It essentially comes out to one of two scenarios:
a) Assuming I put down the same percentage of income, I could have a house paid off here a lot quicker than in Toronto if I bought something comparable in terms of size etc
b) Within the same time-frame, I could have a place in Toronto that was a lot smaller than here, but comparable in price. Probably a condo-apartment on the edge of the city

When accounting for the cost of car insurance and many other things, I'm making less but taking home *more* than if I lived in the big city. Big mortgages also mean big interest too, so the only one getting rich in the long-run would've been the bank.

Now back in my hometown I did see situations where a lot of people from the more pricey cities were coming in and buying up real-estate. The end result is that local prices went up astronomically, so actually those who had bought a $200,000 house ended up with one worth over $500,000... but that only really help if you've moved to somewhere that hasn't gone up so much.

Re:Asians

[Dogtanian]

A remote mountain in Nepal has better 3G service than San Francisco, a large progressive city in "the world's only superpower"...

Aside from the fact that- as the other reply pointed out- this only applies to one, very well-known "remote mountain", there's also the fact that signal coverage within cities is generally much harder and patchier than it is on a mountain where the only major obstacle is... the mountain itself.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

Where exactly is the requirement that everyone in the world makes the same as their "American counterparts"?

I don't know, but it would be an awesome requirement.
You know how often the excuse for salaries/bonuses of so-called top positions boils down to "we need to be competitive with the international (read American) market! We *have* to pay this amount to retain them!"
And in the column next to that in the newspaper, you can read the argument why salaries won't increase beyond inflation level this year: "we need to stay competitive. We cannot price ourselves out of the market!"

I would love it if all salaries were based on competition with *one* market, not the high-end salaries with the most expensive market, and the low-end salaries with the cheapest one.

(note: YMMV -- this is a European / Dutch pov.)

Re:Asians

[HalifaxRage]

I don't think big cities anywhere have a low cost of living, because the rent is TOO DAMN HIGH!

Fixed that for you. (see also http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org/)

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you like it if your job, country and culture was stereotyped into the guilt-ridden nonsense that The Simpsons aired?

I'm Russian. I think it would be hilarious.

"In Soviet-Russia, the Simpsons makes YOU laugh!"
...wait...

Re:Asians

[xaxa]

Also loud, insensitive towards other people's cultures, and materialistic.

(According to the Internet I'm supposed to drink tea, protect the queen, avoid the dentist, be gay, ride a bicycle, wear clothes that fit, never speak my opinion directly, be witty, drunk, and expect respect for my country. I'm happy with most of that.)

South korea isn't that bad

[thetoadwarrior]

And their wealth distribution amongst the top and bottom 10% is better than the US with fewer people below the poverty line.

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Asia-and-the-Pacific/Korea-South-POVERTY-AND-WEALTH.html

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Americas/United-States-INCOME.html

I know Banksy is from the UK but the Simpsons are a US show created by US citizens.

Besides I assumed it was a dig at Fox more than a dig at South Korea or China.

It's a comdey cartoon show, get over it

[Nyder]

Um, The Simpson's is a comedy Cartoon show, they do tend to poke fun at various things all the time. You don't hear the comic fan boys bitching.

The only reason they are bitching is probably because it hits close to home, and that's not The Simpson's producers fault, that's there own fault.

But of cry babies with barely any talent if you ask me. Swear to god all the anime from korea looks the same, at least jap's artist tend to make different looking anime.

Re:Asians

[drinkypoo]

The thing about sweatshops is that they're better than the alternative.

False dichotomy. There is not a single alternative. Logic? You fail it.

Re:Asians

[drinkypoo]

Not sure if that indicated the Koreans have their hands full doing American animation, or if the other countries are simply cheaper.

It's called "supply and demand"

Re:Asians

[drinkypoo]

I think in the Australia episode (somewhere in the first couple of seasons?) the subject of ridicule wasn't so much Australia as it was stereotypical American views of Australia.

Wait, are you trying to tell me that if you insult Australia they don't lace on a giant boot and kick you in the arse in front of the embassy?

Simposons

[Anonymous Coward]

Some poor person in North Korea is doing work on the SIMPSONS? That is crazy.

Re:Asians

[h4rm0ny]

That doesn't actually answer in any way the GP's question of whether S. Korea is saturated with other work and can't meet demand, or whether they are beind undercut by the Vietnamese.

Re:Asians

[crossmr]

Yes do a little research. Those cost of living indexes are garbage. I've lived in Korea for nearly 3 years now, after having spent most of my adult life paying for things in big city Canada, and Korea is ridiculously cheap compared to North American cities.

That last one of these I read claimed a dozen eggs in Seoul cost something like $4. I don't know where they found those eggs, but I can get a dozen, regular price, for about $1.45 USD with exchange at the local megamart, and I've never seen a dozen for $4 anywhere. Even at 7-11.

They also claimed a can of beer was $3, when I can walk to the 7-11 and get a can of domestic for about 90 cents.

The fact of the matter is that the cost of living in South Korea is very low compared to any major city back home.

The only thing that is truly expensive is getting into real-estate, but it works out better. Korea works on a Key money system. Want a western sized apartment,2 bedrooms? Probably cost you 100,000$ in deposit. But you'll likely pay no rent with that, and you'll get that $100,000.
This is where people get confused.

They ignore the fact that a great deal of daily living costs are tiny compared to other cities.

you want to have a quality meal at a sit down restaurant with lots of vegetables, and unlimited side dishes? about $4.50.
Prime time movies are only around $8, with assigned seating and a couple's combo that only costs $5. Internet, cheaper, faster, better.

The utilities on my 1 bedroom place are so cheap it's laughable. $6 a month in water, $8 in gas, $20 in electricity.

Transit?
$0.83 gets you on the subway/bus and unless you're going a really long distance that's it. Over something like 12-15 km, starts to add 9 cents per few kms.

Some local buses are only about 40 cents to get on.

If you buy things that aren't part of the local taste, it's expensive. A local shop might be $5 for a good meal, but you go to Outback steakhouse here, and the prices are high, but that's not a good comparison.

As for computers, since I just bought a new one here, I priced it online to compare the online retailer here and newegg in the US. on a $1600 machine, buying identical parts between the countries, the price difference was only $80.

once you started adding in neweggs high shipping prices, the price differences became almost nothing.

local shipping and even international shipping here is ridiculously cheap. I can send anything anywhere in the country for peanuts.

packages I've sent to Canada have costed like 1/3 of what my parents paid for an equal package there to send here.

inter-city transportation is very cheap here as well. Buses/trains cost 1/2 to 1/3 what you'd pay in Canada for similar distances.

These cost of living indexes are clearly made by people who don't have a clue, and once you've actually lived in some of these places you'll realize how out to lunch they are.

More than likely they're not shopping like a local. If you want to make those kinds of comparisons its 17x more expensive to live in any western city since a bottle of soju is like $17 in any bar there, but you can get it for about 90 cents here.

 

Re:Asians

[Rasvar]

This is more of the South Koreans misunderstanding American culture than the other way around. You have a satire aimed at showing Americans, the target audience, how 20th Century Fox, as a proxy for just about any large multinational corporation, exploits labor in a foreign land for profit. Satire tends to go for hyperbole to make a point. The American people do not think anything about how the process to create the items they consume actually occurs. Most people are smart enough to understand that is not really how it works. It is also not like they could depict another animation property to satire. The guilt is not meant to be placed on the people of Asia as much as it meant to be put on the American audience itself.

Sweatshops?

[RMingin]

I swear to Yog-Sothoth, when I read, I saw this:

The satire, Akom founder and president Nelson Shin argued, gave the impression that Asian artists slave away in subpar sweatshops when they actually animate much of The Simpsons every week in high-tech sweatshops in downtown Seoul.

Korean maps

[DavMz]

Koreas probably won't reunite soon in reality, but their maps show only one country.
If you look at maps of Korea (from 6:30, it's in japanese but you can still see the maps) either made by the South or the North, there is no division between the two countries.
From what I understand, they still think of themselves as one people.

Re:Asians

[mjwx]

Wait, are you trying to tell me that if you insult Australia they don't lace on a giant boot and kick you in the arse in front of the embassy?

That is a punishment only reserved for the worst of offenders, oh and Americans (this includes you, Canada and Mexico).

Re:Asians

[mjwx]

I think in the Australia episode (somewhere in the first couple of seasons?) the subject of ridicule wasn't so much Australia as it was stereotypical American views of Australia.

I agree with the GP that the episode in question was not very funny but we Australian's dont complain about these kinds of things, that wouldn't be very Australian.

The Simpsons takes the piss out of everyone, as the GP said but they tend to have a go at US stereotype more often then other countries, I think quite a few of the jokes are things only a foreigner will get (non-USian, where I am you are the foreigner (yes I may live in Soviet Russia OR Soviet Russia may live in you)).

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

You forget that the Asian workers, smiling and happy as they may be in their productive 1/3 western salary paradise, have taken away jobs from Western workers, who could never live on competitive salaries. So one country's gain is very directly another country's loss.

You have it backwards, though. Jobs (aka labor) are the price we pay for the products. By outsourcing to cheaper labor, we get more product for less cost. This is basic stuff known since Adam Smith.

I think the point you're trying to make is that there are not enough jobs in the US to sustain a healthy social structure, and that protectionism may be warranted. That's not an unreasonable position to take, but it's not an economic argument, but now a political one. Every job that we no longer outsource is a lost job for someone overseas.

Re:Asians

[Boogaroo]

It's been done and it is hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWTFG3J1CP8
It's the Complete History Of The Soviet Union, Arranged To The Melody Of Tetris

hee

[Anonymous Coward]

piss of with your fucking region-only HULU !

Re:Asians

[TheoMurpse]

Why the hell are you talking about North Korea?

Not only is Seoul in South Korea, but the Simpsons is animated in South Korea.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

Your moniker is terribly unfortunate.

Re:Asians

[h4rr4r]

What would be the cost for a meal for two at a normal middle of the road establishment?

I find this to often be a great way to compare COL, not very exactly but gives a good feel for it.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to break it to you but Spain is a Third World country.
Ask anyone from the rest of Europe.

Re:Asians

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Right or wrong overworked isn't in there.

Uh, yes it is. Go look it up. It's extra amusing because people often put that right after 'lazy'.

Re:Asians

[zippthorne]

Korea was UN operation. The first, IIRC.

Re:Asians

[yuje]

It was USA who divided the country in half in the first place.

You're welcome yet again. If it wasn't for the US demands for the division in the first place, Korea would already have been united........by the Russians who were invading Japanese territory during the last days of World War 2 and in a rush to occupy as much land as possible. The division saved the southern half of the country from the fate of their grass-and-tree-bark-eating northern neighbors.

Everywhere soon

[sesshomaru]

Some argue that the Banksy sequence's gray and forlorn atmosphere more accurately depicts the sweatshop-like conditions in _________.

Coming soon to a country near you, thanks to Austerity (tm).

Re:Asians

[dafing]

Again though, there is something to be said when pretty much the entire world has GOOD broadband and cellphone reception...except in the USA...

This shouldn't be brushed away, "oh well, you cant win them all HA!", something should be done, vote with your wallet! The USA must close the 3G access gap!

Re:Asians

[GiveBenADollar]

The Simpsons has been using absurdity to escape ridicule on political issues for year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cartridge_Family or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Much_Apu_About_Nothing The absurdity is there to avoid a fight not to change the message, the show's commentary is pretty much as you see it minus the unicorn and the kittens. The intro was so horrific I couldn't even chuckle about the absurdity. I think somewhere around season 6 the writers went off the deep end and haven't been back since. I don't mind opposing political viewpoints in my comedy, but I do mind being hammered with politics when I want a laugh.

Re:Asians

[Twisted64]

Because Korean animators are GOOD. Even Japan outsources animation to Korea.

Re:Asians

[Thing 1]

In soviet Russia, hilarious thinks it is you! Horrorshow, and all that; videe well.

Re:Asians

[raodin]

Now as for Korean history, why would people in other countries be taught about that? You probably know nothing of British, Irish or Icelandic history either, no reason for you to know either. Even in the UK for example there is limited teaching of British history and the bad bits are hardly mentioned.

I don't know, I recall covering some European history when I was in (American) high school. Primarily French and English history and how it relates to the formation of modern politics in the US.

Zero coverage of Korean history though, that much is true.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

The best part of that episode was the special toilet that flushed "the correct, American way".

Re:Asians

[jrumney]

What would be the cost for a meal for two at a normal middle of the road establishment?

Roadkill is free for anyone willing to eat it in Seoul.

Hypocrites

[geekoid]

It's always fun making money making fun of people...until it's you. The all of a sudden it's not fair, or funny.

Re:Asians

[DDLKermit007]

And thats life. It's a bit dickish, but it happens. Seriously, safest country on Earth. It's one reason I LOVE Japan. Worst thing most women have worry about there is a random groping on a train.

Re:Asians

[DDLKermit007]

No, the only reason were there is because of China. North Korea is a joke by comparison. I say this of course about two countries I enjoy heavily. Japan is by far my fav country.

Re:Asians

[DDLKermit007]

Did you even read the summary all the way? The company contracts out a good chunk of the operation to North Korea, and will not say what or how much.

Re:Asians

[TheoMurpse]

Did you even read the summary all the way?

Are you new here?

Re:Asians

[WarlockD]

Comes and goes, at-least with Japan. If they like Korea that year their stuff goes to get made there. Vietnam is starting to be kind of the "safe" pick for businesses.

Remember, unlike here, they have a strong nationalism streak. So if China or Korea leaders start dising them they all get up an arms. Americans just care about price and stability.

I think we use Korea because it is cheap but also it has higher tech/quality living standards. That tends to produce a more skilled labor force vs Vietnam that is starting to be like Japan was after ww2.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

and progressive countries

Advanced, yeah, maybe. Progressive - that's a bit harder to defend.

South Korea (which, I assume, is what you mean by Korea) had a military (non-elected) government until two decades or so ago, has had a few presidents and untold number of politicians caught and sentenced in huge corruption scandals, treats its women as second-class people, in large swaths of the country practices like pre-arranged marriages are prevailing, and don't even start me on things like alternative lifestyles.

"Progressive" is only applicable if you mean it in a very narrow, technological way.

To give you a base for comparison -- look at Taiwan. There the society has, indeed, made a lot of social progress. The society is much more tolerant and free than Korea.

And yes, before you ask, I've lived and worked in both countries and speak/read/write enough Korean and Mandarin to be able to communicate effectively and notice such things.

Re:Asians

[Anonymous Coward]

Japan and South Korea aren't getting such a "sweet deal" out of it at all. The US isn't paying for their defenses, the US is paying for the privilege of using those two countries to project power and protect its interests in the region.

It wasn't a free choice either. Both Japan and Korea were more or less forced to give up independent foreign policy (and to accept significant interference in their internal affairs) and, in the case of Japan, even made to give up a capable army (and no, 70 years onwards, evoking WWII just doesn't work).

There was a semblance of this setup working while the US was the dominant force in the region, and everyone had to align their interests accordingly, but US is quickly losing interest in delivering to their defense promises as it is facing an increasingly strong and capable China, and richer and aggressive Russia. It will soon begin seriously losing the ability to deliver as well.

Both Japan and Korea are already facing more security problems, less US cooperation, and more pressure to "contribute" more to protecting US regional interests. This trend began in earnest during the first Bush term.

It will be very costly to Korea and Japan to recover from these decades of forced US military "caretaking"; while the benefits the US taxpayers have gotten out of it won't be given back.

Re:Asians

[korean.ian]

Forgot about this thread sorry. Although it's difficult to compare costs somewhat due to differences in eating habits, a meal for two at a standard Korean restaurant would be anywhere from 12-20 dollars. No tipping. No tax.
Non-Korean establishments tend to be pricier, but you can get a decent steak for two plus a bottle of wine for around 40-50 dollars. Again, no tipping required. No tax either. Whats on the bill is what you pay.