Graphene Can Be Made With Table Sugar

Zothecula writes with this snippet from Gizmag: "There's no doubt that the discovery of graphene is one sweet breakthrough. The remarkable material offers everything from faster, cooler electronics and cheaper lithium-ion batteries to faster DNA sequencing and single-atom transistors. Researchers at Rice University have made graphene even sweeter by developing a way to make pristine sheets of the one-atom-thick form of carbon from plain table sugar and other carbon-based substances. In another plus, the one-step process takes place at temperatures low enough to make the wonder material easy to manufacture."

Comments

mmm

[Anonymous Coward]

How delicious!

That's pretty

[arndawg]

sweet!

Who'll profit?

[ciaran_o_riordan]

The graphene story is an excellent case study for innovation policy

http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Inequality_between_small_and_large_patent_holders#Small_patent_holders_have_a_weak_negotiating_position

Inventing graphene gets you nothing, but inventing applications for it will make you rich.

Really a prizes system seems to be worth trying as a replacement for the patent system in some fields. How many millions does the patent system cost our governments? What if there were multi-million dollar prizes up for grabs, and freedom to operate for everyone, instead of monopolies?

(Yeh, the lawyers won't help us lobby for this change...)

Re:Who'll profit?

[Sockatume]

Nobody invented graphene. It was discovered, rendering it basically unpatentable, so I'm not sure why not sure what that has to do with small patent holders. However with regards to your second point, inventing a clever way of creating it was worth the Nobel Prize.

Re:Who'll profit?

[rolfwind]

Against Intellectual Property by Boldrin and Leving is a good book:
http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/intellectual.htm

However, you say how much money Patents cost the Government? It costs them nothing (well something but it's recuperated in taxes, fees, and corporate income tax) -- the real cost is societal.

However, corps are still under the dream that China will play nice and all that, and they'll get into that huge market. The truth is, countries don't follow IP laws until it is in their interest to do so (America did the same in her early history) and that means when China is ready to follow IP laws, it's only because they'll be so invested and huge that they'll crush us in our own game.

Re:Who'll profit?

[ciaran_o_riordan]

(Thanks for correcting my invent/discover slip.)

The relation is that this discovery represents progress, and there was a prize on offer rather than a monopoly, and the discovery happened. That's an example of how a prize is sufficient.

As for small and large companies, with patents, the latter win. The wiki page explains why. With prizes, everyone can compete.

As for the patentability of substances: medicines are substances, and they get patented. Graphene could either be patented in the same way, or the process of making/purifying it could be patented.

The discoverer of Graphene also didn't say that getting a patent would be a problem. He said that asserting his patent against the megacorps would be impossible and would just waste decades and a lot of money.

Re:Who'll profit?

[Sockatume]

Oh yeah, I'm familiar with his quote about tying up an entire nation in lawyers' fees. I just don't think that graphene itself would've been patentable. Devices and methods, yes.

Re:Who'll profit?

[Musically_ut]

Nobody invented graphene. It was discovered, rendering it basically unpatentable, so I'm not sure why not sure what that has to do with small patent holders. However with regards to your second point, inventing a clever way of creating it was worth the Nobel Prize.

I would not say that Grephene was not patentable. The Nobel prize winners were on the verge of doing it, but they did not as they said in their interview.

And it seems they did so with good reason.

Re:Who'll profit?

[gafisher]

The best "prize" system for encouraging innovation already exists, and you named it: "... inventing applications for it will make you rich." The patent system as it exists today functions almost exactly opposite to what it was intended to do, which was to share knowledge and ... encourage innovation. One severe failing in that system is the tolerance of preclusive patents, those filed specifically and only to keep a discovery off the market or to keep others from applying concepts which might compete with the patent-holder's core business. To end this practice patents should expire if they aren't developed into marketable form -- and actual products -- within, say, five years.

Re:Who'll profit?

[somersault]

Who's going to fund all the prizes?

Re:Who'll profit?

[biryokumaru]

Well, actually, the present system only rewards marketable advances. What about people who do pure science? If you create a system that only rewards greedy people who can only look ahead for the short time until their patent runs out, then those people will have all the power. Maybe we should re-gear the system to reward people for innovating, not for coming up with a new, clever way to overcharge people.

Re:Who'll profit?

[Hognoxious]

How will the prize be funded? Who will set the prizes? Who would be able to decide, in advance, which discoveries/inventions will be useful five - let alone ten or twenty - years down the line?

Markets aren't perfect but I'd trust them over a committee of well-connected placemen. Isn't that how science in the USSR worked?

Re:Who'll profit?

[gafisher]

Why should pure science be patentable?

Re:Who'll profit?

[poetmatt]

whaddya know. without patents, people actually develop on an idea and improve it!

I swear, one day our intellectual property brigade (worldwide association of assholes/idiots/morons in their various high ranking capacities - IFPI, RIAA, MPAA, WIPO,ASCAP,BSA the list is beyond long) will catch on to this idea, years later - since it must be patented or something.

Re:Who'll profit?

[poetmatt]

us wants china to follow our system because we're trying to get the hell out of it - it's like putting poison in china's waters that we've had for years and are getting rid of.

meanwhile, patents are not free of non-societal cost. there is a real financial cost for all the legal work that gets tied up in the system from patents, which has shot up substantially.

Re:Who'll profit?

[roman_mir]

However, you say how much money Patents cost the Government? It costs them nothing (well something but it's recuperated in taxes, fees, and corporate income tax) -- the real cost is societal.

- that's a fallacy. If the gov't wanted to maximize its taxes through taxing sales (but not income), they'd allow the free market to work.

Of-course most gov'ts tax income, so they prefer monopolies, so it makes sense for them to run protection rackets, which are patents etc. The monopolies make so much money on these things, that it's just easier to tax their incomes, and nobody in gov't is an economic genius that can understand that in a free market with no regulations there would be much more taxable sales activity going on.

So yes, it does cost the society in terms of higher prices and reduced choices and it costs the gov't if gov't were actually honest players and didn't try to run centralized economies.

Re:Who'll profit?

[budgenator]

The Government pretty much behaves as a corporation or even an individual and among other activities it purchases items for use. Like any other individual or corporation many of the items it purchases might be less expensive if the barriers to market entry like patents didn't exist, or conversely they might be more expensive due to less competitors entering a market without barriers and their almost guaranteed profits. On one hand the item might not even exist without patent protection making the shifting the risk to benefit ratio for R&D investment or the additional innovation brought about be a lack of patent protection might make a particular item laughably obsolete.
My guess is if you could really answer these questions, the Nobel committee would be calling you about a trip to Stockholm, because no one knows how much patents really cost the Government.

Re:Who'll profit?

[hesiod]

More important to me is who determines what constitutes a prize-worthy discovery? And are they listed ahead of time, or are are they awarded to things no one had considered?

Re:Who'll profit?

[Grond]

The book is Against Intellectual Monopoly by Boldrin and Levine, and it has been criticized for both factual and logical errors. One example is the article Watt, Again? Boldrin and Levine Still Exaggerate the Adverse Effect of Patents on the Progress of Steam Power :

In an earlier comment on Boldrin and Levine’s 2003 lecture on patents and their effect on technology, we observed that their account of James Watt’s influence on the progress of steam technology contained factual errors which tended to exaggerate the negative consequences of Watt’s patent. We concluded that it was far from obvious that a corrected account would support Boldrin and Levine’s bold conjectures. While Boldrin and Levine’s 2008 “Against Intellectual Monopoly” begins with a new version of Watt’s story that claims to take our earlier criticisms into account, here we assess that version and conclude that it shares many of the shortcomings of the original.

The full article is available for free download via that Berkeley Electronic Press link.

Re:Who'll profit?

[hesiod]

Almost everything (non-biological, non-geological) that exists today is the result of science, in one form or another. Therefore, almost nothing would be patentable.

Re:Who'll profit?

[couchslug]

"it's only because they'll be so invested and huge that they'll crush us in our own game."

At this point, only being crushed will get any attention that matters because the system is rotten and the public find ignorance delectable.

China, by the way, benefited from being reformatted by WWII and the Communist takover, which smashed decayed social structures.

The US doesn't need a Mao, but a national calamity is perhaps in order.

Re:Who'll profit?

[mcgrew]

The only things wrong with patents are that they are granted far too freely, for obvious things, cost way too much to get, and that software can hold both patent and copyright. IMO there should be no software patents.

Re:Who'll profit?

[jackbird]

It also killed tens of millions and wrecked the environment. It's rather cavalier to call it a benefit without at least a disclaimer.

Re:Who'll profit?

[fifedrum]

no, they never will catch on, they'll never change. The only option for us is the B ship. Send them ahead to prepare the next planet for the little people, the rest of us.

Re:Who'll profit?

[PatPending]

Nobody invented graphene. It was discovered, rendering it basically unpatentable, ...

While I do not wish to debate about "discover" vs. "invention," I suggest you take a look at this Slashdot post.

From TFS:

'We considered patenting; we prepared a patent and it was nearly filed. Then I had an interaction with a big, multinational electronics company. I approached a guy at a conference and said, "We've got this patent coming up, would you be interested in sponsoring it over the years?" It's quite expensive to keep a patent alive for 20 years. The guy told me, "We are looking at graphene, and it might have a future in the long term. If after ten years we find it's really as good as it promises, we will put a hundred patent lawyers on it to write a hundred patents a day, and you will spend the rest of your life, and the gross domestic product of your little island, suing us." That's a direct quote.'"

Re:Who'll profit?

[biryokumaru]

Why should processes be patentable?

Re:Who'll profit?

[KarrdeSW]

nobody in gov't is an economic genius that can understand that in a free market with no regulations there would be much more taxable sales activity going on.

Okay... Can you explain what about a free market makes me want to buy more random shit? I know there are easy-to-identify differences between free and regulated markets in many areas, but I really don't see how it directly impacts my spending habits (or most other people's).

Re:Who'll profit?

[roman_mir]

Why the hostility?

Anyway, it's a very very easy thing to understand. Throughout the 19 century the prices on all manufactured goods, food, clothing, energy, tools and then later machines (like sewing machines, washing machines) housing, medical attention, prices were going down.

That's right. Do you know how the old generations of current times likes to remember how things cost LESS during their time or their parents/grandparents time?

Well, this is what the 1913 creation of the Fed caused - rise in prices through expansion of monetary supply (which is the definition of inflation).

The Fed causes inflation and causes prices to go up. Also all of the regulations and laws cause prices to go up. Subsidies cause prices to go up. Gov't loans cause prices to go up. Gov't programs cause prices to go up. Anything that gov't does causes prices to go up and choices to be reduced.

So people were able to buy more and more with the same money over the 19 century, but people were able to buy less and less with the same money after the Fed was created and especially once the federal gov't decided they are going to be active participant in everything in the economy and caused the Great Depression out of a recession (which they also caused by the way.) Had they done the same in thing in 1929 as they did in 1920, the recession would have been over in 1 year in 1929, just like it was in 1920.

Re:Who'll profit?

[roman_mir]

sorry, cut off the previous post for some reason: ....the same in thing in 1929 as they did in 1920, the recession would have been over in 1 year in 1929, just like it was in 1920.

The difference was that in 1920 the gov't cut spending by 70%.

In 1929 they instead started printing money, doing various gov't programs....

--
So by causing prices to increase all the time through regulation and anti-competitive anti-free market regulations and subsidies and laws, and at the same time causing inflation through money printing and setting interest rates at very low numbers (1% and even 0%) all of this takes away purchasing power from people.

Having a free market economy and having some kind of a monetary standard, that prevents monetary supply from being expanded (like the gold standard) causes the prices to go down.

You don't really have to be a genius to understand that when things become cheaper, people buy more, and the reverse is also true.
--

Re:Who'll profit?

[KarrdeSW]

No hostility actually intended, I just swear like a sailor. Apologies if it came off that way.

Re:Who'll profit?

[poetmatt]

it will change. how fast depends on if people catch on in their lifetime or it happens when they die.

as is, we're basically waiting for the people in leadership right now to die to fix a lot of situations - primarily politically. The question is whether the new guy has a clue.

Re:Who'll profit?

[thesandtiger]

Any individual or group who has a desire to see a thing developed? Kind of obvious, no?

If a goal is seen as worthy by enough people/groups, they'll be able to raise the money to offer the prize. For example:

Say there is an open source project that I would like to see have certain features that I, personally, am unable to develop. I might offer a bounty for someone who develops that - and I could notify people who may also use this software and who might also want those features developed - and they might contribute to the bounty pool. At some point, the pool would get big enough that someone would want to do the implementation.

If I'm not able to get enough people to fund it to the point where people take it seriously, or if I'm not willing to fund it myself, it probably isn't really worth doing.

For bigger things, I could see the government getting involved. For example, rather than the government funding NASA to build a man-rated system capable of getting to orbit and meeting certain specs (reuse, boosting capability, efficiency, whatever), offer a prize of 1 billion USD as well as contracts for a certain number of flights. This would cost NASA way less than contracting the development, would only cost them if the prize was won, and would spur competitors to get into the field and try to make it happen. The prize-winner would certainly make quite a bit of money from other contracts as well. The runners-up would have taken a risk and lost (or maybe not - I could definitely see some serious innovation coming out of the competition and some new tech that could be marketed).

I frankly don't get why we haven't done this on a governmental level with things like spaceflight, renewable energy sources, etc. It seems to be a no-brainer - the government literally can't lose. The X-Prize demonstrated the feasibility of this on a small scale; ramp it up.

Re:Who'll profit?

[NoSig]

Discovery = invention. The distinction between the two is a distinction without a difference. Yes, I'm saying that you can say that you invented America when you found it, and that you discovered the automobile if you invented it. It's just that we like to use one word in some circumstances and the other word in other circumstances. However, this reflects only our own idiosyncrasies and reflects nothing about reality. In that way the distinction is like that between "is" and "are". It's about what we like to do rather than reality.

Re:Who'll profit?

[somersault]

I was thinking something along the same lines, but what do you do on an international level? Just leave things to national governments to decide the prizes? I think some kind of collective effort would be good, like the prize they were trying to give to Grigory Perelman recently.. only in the field of engineering I'd imagine there are a lot more known challenges to be cracked than there are currently in maths.

Re:Who'll profit?

[gafisher]

I'm not so sure, Hesiod, but I should be clear that I'm distinguishing "pure" science from "applied" science. Applications of pure science should be patentable, of course, just as applications of unpatentable things like steel, wood or aluminum are patentable, but in my opinion pure science is more like a raw material than a product.

Re:Who'll profit?

[gafisher]

Pure science is generally defined as a process of studying what already is, such as energy, matter and scientific principles. The development of processes is an example of applied science, which manipulates or combines the discoveries of pure science into something new, something which did not previously exist.

Re:Who'll profit?

[thesandtiger]

You could get allied nations to commit to a prize pool I suppose? There are funding agreements in place for other things, so this might be something doable.

first graphene production

[neanderlander]

On a side note, Andre Geim supposedly designed the first graphene production process like this: his students used scotch-tape to pull thin layers of graphite from a piece of paper with pencil drawings on it.

Re:first graphene production

[MrQuacker]

On a side note, scotch tape releases x-rays when you peel it: http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/multimedia/2008/10/gallery_xray_tape?slide=1&slideView=7

Re:first graphene production

[Anonymous Coward]

My understanding is that that process produced low-quality, and not very big, sheets. Further, you had to manually search through the debris on the tape to find them.

This process yields large high-quality sheets, to basically any specification, for low cost and using relatively simple equipment (800C furnaces are not that uncommon, although the gas flow may be more tricky to get right).

Re:first graphene production

[Ramble]

I'm lucky enough to actually do research on graphene, this method is still used (albeit carefully and in a clean room so it's not as flippant as it sounds).

Re:first graphene production

[Bitsy Boffin]

On a side note, x-rays are typically shielded by lead.

Re:first graphene production

[Anonymous Coward]

On a side note, lead isn't actually part of pencil lead.

Re:first graphene production

[biryokumaru]

On a side note, when graphite was discovered in 1565, they thought it was a form of lead, and, like ancient Roman lead styluses, made pencils out of it.

Re:first graphene production

[pinkushun]

Interesting to hear this method is still used. Why the mod down?

Re:first graphene production

[chemicaldave]

On a side note, scotch tape releases x-rays when you peel it:

In a vacuum.

Re:first graphene production

[hesiod]

On a side note, the first graphene production process used scotch tape and pencil lead smeared on paper.

Hey wait, this seems familiar...

Re:first graphene production

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not moderation, he posts at -1 for some reason. Dunno why, maybe bad karma. *shrug*

Re:first graphene production

[budgenator]

only in a vacuum, gasses will ionize and short out the required electrical potential

Re:first graphene production

[mcgrew]

Pencil lead isn't lead, it's graphite. Graphite won't shield x-rays, but I doubt there is a harmful amount of x-rays released.

Re:first graphene production

[Karasuni]

In research the 'scotch tape technique' is still used as the easiest method to generate graphene and graphite sheets. The scientific term is exfoliation of HOPG (Highly Orderdered Pyrolitic Graphite) and basically comes down to pulling apart two scotch tapes from each other and/or placing the tape on a SiO layer. Other methods include bottom-up synthesis on metals (difficult to fix the amount of layers) or SiC wafers (expensive, difficult to control). For flexible displays SAMSUNG is currently just printing large 30 inch sheets of graphene (with a support polymer).

Re:first graphene production

[Goldsmith]

Close, but not quite.

The first graphene production was done in the 1990s, about 10 years before Geim, in a manner very similar to that done by Tour here (in a furnace at high temperature, with a metal catalyst). The guys back then didn't think about how to isolate the graphene from the metal catalyst it was sitting on, and did nothing beyond simply showing it was there. Novoselov (Geim's postdoc) figured out how to get graphene onto a surface appropriate for microelectronics with scotch tape (had nothing to do with pencils, just tape on pure graphite). After that, people went back to the furnace method to scale up production.

Re:first graphene production

[Anonymous Coward]

It only releases xrays in a vacuum but it does release visible light in standard atmosphere. Go into a dark room and peel some off really quick. It's way cooler than wintergreen lifesavers.

Looks like...

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot's not the only place lacking decent editors. :)

...produced graphene in any form he desired, including single-, bi- or multiplayer sheets.

Re:Looks like...

[TheLink]

Haha good catch!

I wonder if there's some backstory to that ;).

Re:Looks like...

[DarkKnightRadick]

multiplayer sheets? What are they doing? Playing Halo? :p

Re:Looks like...

[ThatMegathronDude]

Halo doesn't have character sheets. Obviously its 4th edition.

Re:Looks like...

[DarkKnightRadick]

Figures they'd have to chose a junk system. Gah. *walks away in disgust*

Re:Looks like...

[Anonymous Coward]

*walks away in disgust*

Does that mean that you're going to stop posting here? If so, let me be the first to say "Praise Jesus!"

and

[Anonymous Coward]

we'll MAYBE see the best applications in 2050? After all it's not like transistors came on the scene last year~

interconnects

[spongman]

does this mean that they'll be able to print graphene interconnects between transistors?

Re:interconnects

[John Hasler]

Not yet. First they have to figure out how to either create it on top of silicon dioxide or make it elsewhere and transfer it there. Getting the formation temperature down below the point where doped silicon is damaged is progress, though.

Re:interconnects

[Karasuni]

Not really.. The graphene isn't used for transistors, but CNT is (carbonnanotubes: folded graphene). It is very unlikely that CNT will ever be used for scaling in transistors (16 nm) because of the k vector and phonon effects. Copper just scales linearly with size, but CNT gains too much resistance (k vector, phonons, edge/connect effects) at the lengths where this can be used in future transistors. Getting the CNT or graphene on SiOx isn't such a problem though. If you apply the right fields you can bend the material easily enough. Though the material properties are extremely difficult to control cost-efficiently for mass production (millions of exactly the same transistors for processor components)

Dude.

[0100010001010011]

What's the ingredients list say for my CPU?

Re:Dude.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sweet. What does mine say?

Re:Dude.

[TheRaven64]

It depends on where you bought it. If it's in the USA, then high-fructose corn syrup.

Re:Dude.

[bughunter]

Ingredients: Sand, Aluminum, natural and artificial flavoring.

Re:Dude.

[eleuthero]

There has to be a reason ants like to eat circuit boards after all.

Re:Dude.

[Profane MuthaFucka]

It's some shit on a silicon shingle.

Re:Dude.

[HeLLFiRe1151]

Not anymore. Now it's CORN SUGAR!

Re:Dude.

[h4rr4r]

No, that is dextrose. Unless our courts are so stupid you can now market one product as another.

Re:Dude.

[Grishnakh]

Our courts aren't stupid, they're corrupt.

Re:Dude.

[baubo]

Why can't they be both?

Re:Dude.

[monkyyy]

r u implying its possible to be intelligent and incorruptible?

Re:Dude.

[baubo]

Gosh, I guess I am.

So this means...

[Arancaytar]

You can make graphene by peeling scotch tape off a cup cake?

Jeph Jacques would be amused. :P

Sweet

[beuges]

Now all we need is to figure a way to get all the cabon-laden pollution to be recycled into graphene and we'll be all set. How plausible would that be once the technology is refined enough?

Re:Sweet

[ikkonoishi]

We need the energy to split it off the oxygen first. So nuclear or solar power would have to be more available first.

Re:Sweet

[Sockatume]

"CO2 -> material" is a problem of energy rather than chemistry. The energy generated by making CO2 is less than the energy needed to turn that CO2 into something useful (assuming useful materials have a substantially higher enthalpy of formation and lower entropy than fuels). So you have to have an energy source which is capable of replacing fossil fuels first.

Re:Sweet

[slim]

So you have to have an energy source which is capable of replacing fossil fuels first.

The only real problem with existing renewable energy sources is geographical and temporal availability. e.g. for wind, it's not always windy enough, and in some places it's never windy enough, making it a challenge to get a consistent power supply where it's needed.

For a CO2 -> material plant, it seems to be you could build it where the energy is, and run it at a variable rate, depending on what energy nature throws your way.

Next challenge, getting the CO2 in, and shipping the carbon products out. There are similar issues with water -> hydrogen plants.

Re:Sweet

[gafisher]

Unless we find enough applications to make graphene really useful, it would just be an expensive way to store carbon. It would almost certainly be cheaper to turn pollution into pencil lead.

Re:Sweet

[Sockatume]

As a partial scrubber that happens to make useful stuff, that'd work. I parsed beuges' comment as asking if we could pull off a complete scrubbing of our excess CO2 from the atmosphere, which isn't an option. You reach the stage where you're able to completely replace your fossil fuels with a new energy source, before you reach the stage where you keep your fossil fuels and clean up using a CO2->materials process.

Re:Sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

So you have to have an energy source which is capable of replacing fossil fuels first.

Done. It's not a source, it's a solution. You can only get out of the system what you put into it.

I think that what it actually needed is for us geeks to stop lining up to work in the big labs, and start our own businesses. We have the intellect and the drive to succeed, and most developed nations have engineered conveyor belts of investor capital that start rolling at the sight of a good idea and a capable leader. A lesson that cost 700 billion USD can be retold by the recently moribund and destitute homeless, that if you intend to just gamble with other people's money there might not be enough socialism left to let you rebound when you're found out.
Strangest thing though; it turns out that when you share there's more to go around for everyone. It's game theory versus the second law of thermodynamics.

When you run your own business it imposes on you the data structure needed to be aware of your surroundings. Money is the unit by which economy is measured and the important thing isn't that you have a lot of it, but rather that it is accurate. It boils down to networking, which is why people think the Masons are rich conspirators bent on world domination, but ideally they're just like-minded people who know they can cooperate to reach a common goal.

The only question is, do you want to grind in WoW and network with people who waste their time, or do you want to grind with the people who carefully invest their time into a brighter future?

Re:Sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

...There are similar issues with water -> hydrogen plants.

Except that almost all of the world's population lives near a body of water.

Re:Sweet

[John Hasler]

There are a vast number of applications for graphene which will become practical as soon as it can be made inexpensively.

Re:Sweet

[slim]

...There are similar issues with water -> hydrogen plants.

Except that almost all of the world's population lives near a body of water.

Yes, but for the water has to be close to a renewable energy source too.

Wind/Sun/etc + water = hydrogen + oxygen.
Hydrogen + oxygen = energy

You need the water near the renewable, and then you need to transport the hydrogen to where the energy is needed. i.e. where people are.

If the people are close to the renewable, you don't need to go through the hydrogen stage. Just let them use the energy directly.

Re:Sweet

[nedlohs]

Or just skip the middle and use the renewable (well net CO2 increasing I guess is more what is being talked about) energy sources for energy and not produce that CO2 in the first place...

Re:Sweet

[CCarrot]

The only real problem with existing renewable energy sources is geographical and temporal availability.

Okay, this made me shake my head. It's like saying 'the only problem with food production in third-world countries is geographical and temporal availability.'

Yes. It is a problem, a major one. It's not the 'only' problem with current renewable-energy technology, but the 'geographical and temporal availability' of food issue hasn't been solved yet, last I heard, and we've been working on that a heck of a lot longer...

While it's true that people can live without 'electricity' a lot easier than they can live without food, I maintain that people also require some sort of consistent energy supply to live (be it supplied via burning dung, natural gas, nuclear power or renewable-energy), especially in regions of the world where cold weather kills.

Energy is a necessity of life. If people can't get it where and when they need it, they suffer, and that is a *real* problem, one that doesn't have to be supported by theoretical computer models, questionable data sets and magic math.

(i know, this post is totally off-topic, sorry about that!)

Re:Sweet

[slim]

I'm not sure where we're disagreeing, unless it's a bit of linguistic crossed wiring.

We have enough food for everyone in the world; we have a real problem transporting food to the people who need it. It's a hard problem.

Likewise, there's enough sun/wind/etc. to provide all the energy we need. The existing technology to harvest that energy is mature enough to work. We have a real problem transporting that energy to the people who need it.

Re:Sweet

[CCarrot]

Sorry, we're not really disagreeing, I was just reacting to the phrase "the only real problem with...". It seems to trivialize what are actually large and currently insurmountable problems with renewable energy technologies (other than hydro, for the most part).

All the subsidies and legislation in the world won't overcome these basic issues of availability and reliability for wind and solar. The only thing that would make them viable as stand-alone energy sources is some vast improvements in efficiency and storage technology. I realize people are working on these problems, and best of luck to them, but I honestly don't see a 'magic' answer coming any time in the near future.

I guess I get tired of arguing with people who don't understand the massive technical difficulties and figure we should shut down all the non-renewable power stations now so we can throw everything into renewables, or only approve new energy projects if they're based on renewable sources. I realize that's not what you were saying, which is why my post was waayy off-topic, the phrasing just touched a nerve.

Thanks for putting up with my rant ;)

Carbon-based substances, such as... man!

[Lord Bitman]

n/t

Re:Carbon-based substances, such as... man!

[Winckle]

Soylent Graphene is made from people!

'...and other carbon-based substances'

[RDW]

Soylent Graphene is people!

Re:'...and other carbon-based substances'

[Hognoxious]

Enterprise is infested with carbon units.

Re:'...and other carbon-based substances'

[camperslo]

Hmmmm.... how to enjoy corn syrup without getting fat...

Re:'...and other carbon-based substances'

[Phopojijo]

Just another way Foxconn employees are giving to their company.

Re:HOLY SHIT?

[zrbyte]

More fun facts: Some people have made carbon nanotubes from grass.

Re:HOLY SHIT?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

OMFG!!! This is fucking amazing!!

Nanotubes from grass? Who is going to tell my fucking dealer????

How much does the USPTO cost?

[ciaran_o_riordan]

> how much money Patents cost the Government? It costs them nothing

Really? Can you point me to where I can find this? (If it's in that book, which chapter?)

I've been looking for this info for a while, but I need something to back it up.

The USPTO is always talking about needing their budget expanded. Aren't they talking about a budget given to them by the federal govt? The societal costs are certainly larger than the financial costs (if any) to the government, but I'd like to get all the numbers.

Re:How much does the USPTO cost?

[TheRaven64]

The US patent office does not get to keep patent fees. They go into the general budget and then some percentage is returned by the federal government. This percentage may be greater than 100%, in which case they'd be costing money, but given that they go up to tens of thousands of dollars for patents more than a decade old it seems unlikely.

Re:How much does the USPTO cost?

[Grond]

The PTO is funded by user fees. The problem is that if they take in more fees than they budgeted for, the rest goes to general revenue to be spent on other things. When the economy turns downward, the PTO ends up taking in less in fees than its fixed costs (building maintenance, salaries, etc). The 'budget expansion' you're referring to is a plan to essentially refund some of the almost $1 billion in excess fees that have been taken from the PTO over the years. Part of it would make up for the current budget shortfall and part of it would be used for infrastructure improvements like IT upgrades.

You can find out all you want to know (and more!) about the PTO budget in its 2011 budget report. On page 2 you'll find "USPTO is a fully fee funded agency (with fee collections appropriated by the Congress), and does not rely on regular funding from the General Treasury."

For those of you wondering how the PTO can have budget problems when the number of patent applications is at or near record highs: the cost of examination is not fully paid for on the front end. Much of the cost is made up on the back end through maintenance fees. The problem right now has more to do with patent holders letting patents go abandoned (and thus not paying maintenance fees) than it does application rates dropping off. This is discussed in page 7 of the budget report I linked.

Re:How much does the USPTO cost?

[ciaran_o_riordan]

Thanks! for the link and the quote. I've added them to the wiki here:

http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Cost_of_the_patent_system_to_governments

DIY?

[siddesu]

Can I make it at home? And use it in a 3D printer?

Re:DIY?

[SharpFang]

It's way too thin to make sense in a 3D printer.

Re:DIY?

[marcosdumay]

You can make it at home, but an 800C furnance may be more expensive than you think (but still within reach of an individual). You'll probably no be able to do anything usefull with it (on a 3D printer or anywhere else).

Re:DIY?

[jittles]

It's way too thin to make sense in a 3D printer.

That's funny... because you were way too thick to get his joke! :P

Re:DIY?

[eshbums]

I guess you could cook it four times as long at 200C, right? Or hell, throw it in an EZ Bake and set the timer for 200 days. Presto!

Re:DIY?

[budgenator]

800C is pretty easy, even DYI stuff, 1000C is more of a stretch but still do-able. My industry sometimes uses microwave sintering ovens that will reach 1600C.

It's about time

[gafisher]

Finally -- a useful application for table sugar!

makes you wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

can i recycle my (new)old electronics digestively?

Single Atoms?

[Ramble]

Single atom transistors? Where are they getting this from? I do work with graphene and to introduce a bandgap (either in single or multilayer sheets) you need to introduce an energy difference between atoms - in the case of a single sheet you do that by using a substrate with a similar structure (e.g. Boron nitride) so the two basis atoms of graphene experience different energies or in the case of multiple sheets you can use an electric field ala FETs. In no way could you do this with a single atom as graphene has no band gap and is thus a metal normally.

Re:Single Atoms?

[reverseengineer]

On the subject of multiple sheet configurations of graphene, something also mentioned in the article, I've been curious for awhile about the point that distinguishes "stacked graphene" from graphite. About how many layers of graphene planes are necessary before the material behaves more like graphite than graphene? Also, given that bulk graphite and graphene monolayers have quite different chemical and physical properties, is the transition abrupt, or are there intermediate states?

Re:Single Atoms?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a grad student and you take science journalism at all seriously? It's tabloidy exaggeration for the feature scale. Nothing's smaller than an atom! Let's be as misleading as possible for emotional effect! Journalists wouldn't know what to do with an electron density band diagram.

Re:Single Atoms?

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree, I was working with BN substrates this summer as well. I'm also highly doubting the quality of the graphene made by the sugar process mentioned above. I'm also having problems locating the paper about this synthesis method.

Somehow

[ThatsNotPudding]

this is going to involve needle snakes and gorillas...

From the article: "five-atom rings in fluorene"

[John Hasler]

WTF?

Re:From the article: "five-atom rings in fluorene"

[reverseengineer]

Fluorene is a hydrocarbon compound named for its fluorescence. Despite what the name suggests, it contains no fluorine.

Re:From the article: "five-atom rings in fluorene"

[John Hasler]

Ah. Thank you.

Present tense?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The remarkable material offers everything from faster, cooler electronics and cheaper lithium-ion batteries to faster DNA sequencing and single-atom transistors."

"Offers"? Really? Can we get a story without drooling hyperbole from the unbridled imagination of a ten year old? Graphene "offers" no such things. It might, perhaps, one day, eventually lead to maybe an idea of an inkling of how to do these things. But really, it's not graphene that "offers" these things, it's people.

cheap pcs now?

[hesaigo999ca]

Does that mean in a few years we will start seeing very cheap pcs, for 100$ for the whole thing, god i think we paid enough over the years, we could enjoy some cheaply made pcs! When I think back at a time when I had paid nearly 5k$ american for top of the line laptop for work,school to program, and see the same model today at 200$, i got to say, I am crying on the inside.

Never again will i spend even 300$ for a pc or laptop, i will stick to around 200$ range, even if it has to be a bit used, the turn over period is getting too small these days to even consider spending more the that.

The use

[Krau Ming]

of these sweet puns has soured my interest in graphene.

Re:And you can fertilize your lawn

[AltairDusk]

Only if you want the EPA to come dig up your entire lawn and then charge you for it (assuming they find out).

Re:HOLY SHIT?

[hesiod]

I nominate this off-topic post for best comment of the thread.

Subsidies

[bjwest]

Great! Now can we transfer our corn subsidies over to sugar crops, get rid of corn sugar in everything and go with real sugar again? I'm getting tired of having to search for Mexican Coke.

Re:Subsidies

[geekoid]

I dn't want sugar back, it's worse for you because you need more of it to get the same sweetness. You are basically advocating more sweetner in peoples lives. But hey, don't let actually fact influence your thinking.

Re:Subsidies

[Anonymous Coward]

I eat next to no naturally sweetened stuff. What I need is diet cheese. Seriously, I can eat half a pound of cheese a sitting. Cheddar, bleu, gorgonzola, the stronger the better (I buy the extra aged sharp cheddar and store it another couple of months before cracking it open. Oh yeahhh baby!)

Now if only they could do for milk fat what artificial sweeteners have done for sugar!

Re:Subsidies

[bjwest]

Just because you need more, doesn't make it worse for you. Fructose and sucrose are two different substances. Your body processes them differently.

Re:Subsidies

[John Hasler]

The acid in your stomach immediately converts sucrose into a mixture of fructose and glucose. Otherwise known as HFCS.

Re:And you can fertilize your lawn

[Anonymous Coward]

Relax big guy. It was a joke. He isn't actually going to fertilize his lawn with it.

Re:HOLY SHIT?

[mcgrew]

Too bad the youngsters here don't realise that "grass" use to mean "marijuana" or you'd have gotten a "funny" mod.

Just think, your nanotube grass would already be rolled, no zigzags necessary. They'd be tiny little joints, though!

Re:HOLY SHIT?

[pablo_max]

You, you are saying that I can finally smoke my pipe???

800C furnace is *very* easy

[mangu]

an 800C furnace may be more expensive than you think

No, it's really cheap. That's the temperature at which molten aluminum is cast, many people, including me, do it with home built furnaces.

Google for gingery electric furnace to find an excellent little book which tells you how.

Table Sugar?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard of cane sugar, beet sugar, corn sugar, and several others, but I have to admit being ignorant of table sugar. What is this miracle of nature?

Re:HOLY SHIT?

[Anonymous Coward]

But did they try to smoke them afterwards?

Re:HOLY SHIT?

[Anonymous Coward]

really.. that is very good ..

investment

[Anonymous Coward]

Graphene is a miracle substance by appearances.

The pertinent question therefore is: where do I invest?
get in on the ground floor now, this is the equivalent of investing in Microsoft in its first few months.