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MP3Tunes 'Safe Harbor' Court Challenge Approaching
markjhood2003 sends along an update on a story we first discussed two years back: EMI's lawsuit against MP3Tunes on the claim that cloud storage of music is illegal. The case has gathered importance as cloud computing has grown in capability and acceptance. Opposition briefs in the case are due on Wednesday and oral arguments will start in January. EMI is making the unusual move (the opposition calls it "desperate") of insisting that the EFF's friend-of-the-court brief not be accepted. "EMI says the brief filed last week by the Electronic Frontier Foundation and other groups supporting MP3tunes’s argument that it’s not responsible for what music its users store on its servers should be barred because it is 'a pure advocacy piece, not a "friend of the court."' Amicus curiae briefs are often filed by interest groups and the government in cases that could set major precedents, in order to illustrate the broader ramifications of the case. ... After three years of litigation, EMI argues that EFF’s brief is too long, thereby 'circumventing' the court’s 'page restrictions' causing 'additional burden' to the court and “prejudice” to the EMI. ... In addition, EMI says, EFF’s brief 'contains unsupported speculation that is not helpful to the Court.' Anyone can submit such a brief as long as they’re not a party to the case, and judges have full discretion whether to accept them. They almost always do."
Sigh.
Physical location of information storage is irrelevant.
What matters (and what should matter legally) is who has control of
and access rights to the information. That is the person who is
in possession of the information and determining its disposition.
Whether a person chooses to manage their personal or personally owned
information on a local hard drive, a usb stick, or a rented chunk of the
cloud ought to be completely irrelevant.
If law is going to rule on uses of internet architecture, law had
better understand fundamental concepts of internet architecture,
such as virtual private networks and idependent security realms.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Whats the difference between could storage and traditional storage? Buzzwords, and possibly their synergy.
'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
In their next case, they'll contend that not only are users breaking the law when they store their music on a hard drive they've rented, they're breaking the law when they store their music on a hard drive they've purchased. And of course, when I say "hard drive" I mean a "storage device," such as a flash drive or an optical disk. In other news: EMI pushes for a return to vinyl records.
I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
As long as it's not publicly accessible (and therefore promoting infringement), how could they construe storing files on a private location to be illegal? Insanity.
So - storing your own CDs in your house - acceptable. CDs in your car, illegal (because you can play the CDs at various residences)?
Anything to protect that dying model. It would almost be humorous, if it wasn't sad.
Sent from my PDP-11
I was wondering what services specifically an unfavorable ruling would affect. Would it affect websites like Pandora or would it harm services like usenet or would it affect file sharing sites?
And you
should under-
stand how the
textarea func-
tions.
I love the EFF. I do. But they're rabidly pro-copying. Or pro-sharing. A friend of mine likes to point out that they get some of their money by the hardware companies which sort of makes sense. The hardware companies don't care about sharing. They don't care about whether the content creators get paid because, well, they still get their money. If anything, they're happy to wink at the copying because every dollar spent on content is a dollar that can't be spent on a new version of a gadget. So while I think it's okay that they're writing friends of a court briefs, I'm sure they're really more like "friends of the cloud manufacturers" or "friends of the Consumer Electronics Ass."
...from the bottom up. Simply put, the extant laws and the interpretations thereof are no longer valid for the changes that digitization have brought on. This revision has been needed for many years now, and the record industry's insistence on maintaining outmoded and obselete restrictions is a direct result of their inability to innovate a way to make a profit outside of their old model.
I see no reason why the *AA should stifle creative expression because they're unable to continue making a profit on buggy whips.
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure dome decree
32 whole pages including cover page, table of contents and submission credits at 1.5 line spacing? And people accuse Gen Y of having a short attention span... I'd have to agree that EMI are scraping the bottom of the barrel for reasons.
Research on reading typically comes up with results like the following
(google it for more details)
- Longer line lengths generally facilitate faster reading speeds.
- Shorter line lengths result in increased comprehension.
- The optimal number of characters per line is between 45 and 65.
(some studies say 66 to 70, but you get the point.)
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
EMI's argument is, in part, that the EFF brief is tl;dr? Sounds like they're getting into internet culture after all.
http://transformativeworks.org/
If I were a judge here, and were talked out of reading a FOTC letter, I'd just be more interested in reading it.
Weather forecast for the upcoming years: Increase of music in the troposphere.
No, I did not RTFA but it sounds like a few thousand netizens submitting sufficiently detailed Friend-of-the-court briefs would be more enough to tie this thing up until the whole cloud-computing frenzy dies down...
Are ipads / iphones next?
80, the optimum length is 80.
It should be green text on a black background.
... just some boring pre-trial lawyering...
Research on reading typically comes up with results like the following
(google it for more details)
- Longer line lengths generally facilitate faster reading speeds.
- Shorter line lengths result in increased comprehension.
- The optimal number of characters per line is between 45 and 65.
(some studies say 66 to 70, but you get the point.)
Well played... ...And no, I am not the parent author.
7
Attaching data to a medium which cannot be duplicated and degrades over time is the cornerstone of the entertainment industry's business model. Cloud computing, networks, and any other form of data duplication and replication is therefore its natural enemy.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
If we accept EMI's argument, then all of the online data backup services are also facilitating copyright infringement and should be shut down. Microsoft's latest buzzword is "the cloud", why haven't they filed an amicus brief?
And by the way, how the fuck can anyone object to an amicus brief? Wouldn't doing so just result in dozens of similar organization filing essentially the same brief? I assure you, EMI, we can file 'em faster than you can object to 'em!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
You might want to try googling the phrase "Streisand Effect"! Much like censored books and records enjoy greater sales, any brief you object to just gets a lot more interesting...
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Physical location of information storage is irrelevant.
good luck in getting US court decisions executed regarding data stored in North Korea, Cuba or Venezuela.
So why does it matter where it is stored, who stores it, blah blah blah.
If all I have purchased from the record companies is a license to the music, then isn't all that matters is that the person accessing the cloud has a license? Doesn't that license entitle me to certain listening rights.
Or to put it another way, isn't MP3Tunes.com responsible for doing nothing else beyond ensuring I have a license for the music they are serving me? Isn't a reasonable method for discerning that fact my ability to upload a copy of that music?
There are two scenarios: either I uploaded a licensed version so now STFU. Or it is an unlicensed version and as such MP3Tunes still isn't facilitating since they aren't the ones that gave me the unlicensed version in the first place and oh yeah BTW I already have an unlicensed copy so the battle is lost. No one else is "getting" that unlicensed version since the only reason they even have access via the cloud is because they already uploaded a licensed version or [drum roll please] they already are in possession of, and uploaded, an unlicensed version.
If you can't be good, be good at it!
are you sure it isn't 42?
"To prevent this day from getting any worse, I'll just read ERROR as GOOD THING" 1GJU8xLuDKDxEs4KLf8fAGyptoDsqvEsBT
You have zero understanding of graphic design. Maximum readability comes from black text on a yellow background.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
That's why this thing is so screwed up. Hardware manufacturers sell a product. Software manufacturers sell a license. The RIAA/MPAA have deluded themselves (and gotten a bunch of laws passed supporting them) that they are selling something which isn't quite a product and isn't quite a license. By their terms, in any case where it being a product would benefit you (able to play it at parties, make backups of it, etc), they want to treat it like a license. But any case where it being a license would benefit you (discounted format upgrades, free replacement for destroyed media, making copies for your home stereo, MP3 player, computer, and car, etc), they want to treat it like a product.
"The water's rushing in! Throw this sandbag on it!
"That's no sandbag, that's a baby!"
"It's a sandbag. Throw it on the pile and I'll get another".
The tactic relates to removing your opponent's argumentative ammunition, by any means. If they have a devistating argument, all the more reason to try to get it thrown out. Nice, or Right, doesn't enter into it.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
So what? That's not how web browsers work. If you want narrower columns of text, you resize your browser window. It's not up to you to cut up your content in rows of x characters.
Unfortunately, there is a big flaw in your reasoning.
Courts have ruled, that anytime you had your information over to a 3rd party, it isn't subject to constitutional protections preventing search and seizure -- based on the the theory that 3rd party's are not 100% trustworthy.
Based on that, if you store something in the cloud -- courts have already ruled that it's NOT your private stuff anymore -- so theoretically, 'anyone' could make a copy, though most obviously anyone in the employ of the 3rd party (a music cloud service could provide a gigantic DB for discrete employees to obtain all sorta of digital information that could be resold or made available over on unrelated servers -- not to mention anyone in law enforcement wouldn't need a court order to obtain their own copy of 1000's of customer's songs -- again something that might find itself duplicated before it's stored in the evidence locker.
Sure -- these situations are based on unethical or illegal actions by others, but if the cloud storage wasn't allowed, they wouldn't have had the opportunity. Such large quantities of digital 'goods' might be too tempting for someone to siphon off copies on the side.
Of course, I think such arguments are *bull*, and are similar to arguments against legalizing cannabis cultivation -- because it would increase the crime of people stealing it (so does allowing people to own cars & stereos)!...
Unfortunately, there are idiots who believe that if you have a freedom that tempts others to do crime, then that's enough to restrict you from having that freedom. How that attitude passes as acceptable in a 'free' society, is beyond me, but the laws are there and there are stupid court rulings to support these stupid laws.
EMI says says the brief . . . should be barred because it is "a pure advocacy piece", not a 'friend of the court'
Amicus Curiae does not mean impartial. It never has. Amicus curiae briefs may come from organizations who have an interest in the outcome of the decision or not. From wikipedia: "An amicus curiae (also spelled amicus curiæ; plural amici curiae) is someone, not a party to a case, who volunteers to offer information to assist a court in deciding a matter before it." In its brief, the EFF (and other organizations) pointed out how flaws in EMI's arguments and how a win by EMI would be counter to what Congress intended.
and would "prejudice" EMI
Again, a party filing a brief is under no obligation to support EMI.
"contains unsupported speculation that is not helpful to the Court."
That is for the court to decide. What EMI means is that the brief would not be helpful to them.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
My experience agrees with you. Additionally, the offtopic mod makes little sense in a multi-threaded discussion.
DMCA is explicit in its language under this subject. The person who uploads the music is at fault, not the service that hosts it, not the ISP that transports it, or anyone else.
The only exception to this is if the provider (MP3Tunes) refuses to accept DMCA take down notices, and go through the proper channels. This is why Google isn't ripped to shreds with youtube.
So as long as:
1) MP3Tunes did not upload the music itself.
2) MP3Tunes followed DMCA take down notices.
then EMI has no chance of winning this court case.
Because people don't deserve that kind of freedom. They just don't have the responsibility, as the death of my 9 year old daughter has proven.
So fuck you and anyone else who thinks they have the right to do whatever they want to incite crime and allow it to affect others.
Funny, I thought it was up to the developer/poster to determine how they want their information to flow... hence the ability for him to do so.
Oh I don't know, I figure it's my text, and I'm writing it, I'll format it however I damn well please. :p
...and this WHOOSH was brought to you in green text on a red background blinking to red text on a green background.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
You are still putting your data on a server located in another jurisdiction and that other jurisdiction has other laws which you need to consider. More fool you.
It matters very much where the data is stored. Here in the UK for instance we have some privacy laws which you don't have in the US, yet our councils and other public bodies outsource data processing to international companies which then transfer that data to servers in other jurisdictions, thus circumventing the UK law.
And why shouldn't an American company handling data on an American server apply American law to the data they have been given? No reason at all. The UK public bodies should never have allowed the data to be transferred out of their jurisdiction in the first place.
Please don't offer up the ridiculous, unenforceable, voluntary Safe Harbour agreement which, it is touted, gets around the problem of differing data protection legislation in participant countries. It is voluntary, self registering and a joke.
Don't put your data in the cloud and then wonder why someone else has access to it. It's your own fault.
You don't store stuff in the cloud in plaintext form. You encrypt it.
Let them copy all they want. The cloud is supposed to offer storage and backup, not copy protection.
http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
With the deeply nested way the conversations on Slashdot are formatted, you need to view it in a wide browser (or deeper comments become illegibly squashed), while I prefer to keep the text in relatively narrow columns even in the higher comments.
OH yes, make no mistake none of that is lost on me. I suppose my point is, make them choke on it >;-)
If you can't be good, be good at it!
What matters (and what should matter legally) is who has control of and access rights to the information. That is the person who is in possession of the information and determining its disposition.
Possession is irrelevant in copyright issues. It has never been a violation to possess a copy of something. It has been a violation to distribute a copy.
In this case the claim is that the service can be used to distribute copyrighted information. If it can be shown that a primary use of the service is to share the music between multiple "entities" then MP3Tunes is pretty much hosed.
incite != tempt.
I tempt and everyone else 'tempts', but simply owning things that others "want". So you are basically saying 'fuck everyone' for the death of your daughter.
How about putting the blame where it belongs -- on the murderer? Blaming all of society for the actions of those who commit criminal acts is unhelpful -- since there will always be those who are 'tempted' by almost 'anything'.
If you go with the logic of restricting everything that might tempt someone, then you need to remove ALL difference from everyone, so there will be no possibility that someone might want something that someone else has. That means everyone does the same job too, which is impossible.
It is impossible to create a perfectly equal society without any situation where someone might want something someone else has.
Since there is no place in all of nature where such conditions are exist -- they would be unnatural as well as impossible.
The only solution is to train people to get their needs met in a socially acceptable manner (not through violence or theft).
The laws to attempt to remove temptation are harmful to humankind -- they take away benefits from the whole of humanity in order to accommodate those with violent and thieving. It's the person with the bad tendencies who is 'sick'. They are the ones that need fixing.
You don't restrict healthy people from their freedoms in order to accommodate the sick --- you fix the sick.
It's perversely backwards to restrict the freedom of the healthy, so that sick people can walk the streets. How can you say that people don't deserve freedom so that the sick can walk free? People DO deserve their freedoms, as long as they don't directly impinge on other people or their freedoms, but the idea that I can't have a freedom because some sick person might create a problem?
Sorry, but it is the sickness that needs treatment, restricting and, if necessary, removal from society. To put the responsibility on the healthy for those who can't control themselves -- that's EXACTLY the excuse used to keep women covered and unable to walk the streets alone in theocratic countries -- because the men are tempted and can't control themselves, so it's the women who end up with no freedom. That's NOT a free society, and not one I'd want to live in. If you want that -- move to a country that restricts freedom based on temptation, as those laws have no place in a free society.
You are forgetting that there is something called a "line" that all rational people are able to draw. Lest you suggest that possession of child pornography should be legal?
Things that tempt others to commit crimes:
- Leaving your car running unattended.
- Leaving your bike unlocked.
- Wearing sexually exciting clothing.
- Being alone while drunk/drugged.
- Being alone outside at night.
- Walking around with $500 cash hanging out of your pocket.
- Books encouraging criminal activity.
- Video encouraging or dramatizing criminal activity.
- Games encouraging or allowing players to commit criminal activity.
- Allowance of anonymous information transfer.
- Not having proper security for data, military facilities, or highly trafficked/dangerous public facilities (airports, public transit, etc).
- Encouraging criminal activity in public.
I would say that all of these should be illegal. However, these things are tempting, but not as severely, and thus may be allowed:
- Books dramatizing criminal behaviour.
- Video games involving small amounts of violence.
- Video involving concensual completely non-violent adult sexual activity, without any kind of censorship.
- Sexual promiscuity (if kept private and not adultery).
- Jaywalking (someone may be tempted to try and hit a moving target... but clearly this is insane.)
- Leaving things of petty value unattended.
- Disagreement with another person (debating/arguing).
- Seperation of a couple initiated by only one of the pair.
- Making unpopular statements in public.
- Wearing clothing that may be seen as sexual to a small portion of the population (ex: miniskirts, dresses, NOT lingerine or extremely tight clothing, see through clothing is obviously a no).
Hardly an exhaustive list. However, I'm certain you can see now. Our society already takes many of these steps. For example, child pornography, hate speech laws, gun restriction laws, deviant pornography restriction laws, laws against leaving doors unlocked, indecency laws, etc.
And fixing the sick? What an orwellian concept!
Punish the crime to dissuade it only when the crime is committed, or we will really have problems. The people who incite the crimes should be fined (or jailed, depending on the severity), those who commit the crimes should be jailed (or executed, depending on the severity).
Things you think should be illegal:
Being alone outside at night? -- So we should be locked up at night for our own safety?
Allowing anonymous information transfer? -- so no more anonymity on the net, you say?
Wearing sexually provocative clothing? -- (By who's standard? Being completely naked isn't sexually provocative to a nudist, but an exposed ankle might be to a moslem.
Books encouraging 'criminal activity' -- depends on whatever you define as criminal at the time. What do you define as 'encouraging'? Some people think that just by talking about it at all is 'encouraging'.
So many of your restrictions rely upon subjective definitions.
And I don't care how sexy the outfit is -- there can be no excuse for forcible rape -- treatment should be castration on the 1 offense where guilt is established without a doubt. If there are mitigating circumstances, then maybe on a 2nd offense. Sorry you find that Orwellian. But right now, the US definition of 'fixing' offenders is to lock them up for very long sentences. Many societies use various methods to "encourage" offenders to change their behavior, (i.e. use various methods to 'fix' them). Orwellian? If you say so.
Your list of restrictions sound like you'd be someone comfortable living in Iran or Saudi Arabia -- perhaps you should consider moving there rather than attempting to change a free society into a theocratic one.