US Government Seizes Torrent Search Engine Domain

Voulnet writes with this excerpt from TorrentFreak: "This morning, visitors to the Torrent-Finder.com site are greeted with an ominous graphic which indicates that ICE has seized the site's domain. 'My domain has been seized without any previous complaint or notice from any court!' the exasperated owner of Torrent-Finder told TorrentFreak this morning. 'I firstly had DNS downtime. While I was contacting GoDaddy, I noticed the DNS had changed. GoDaddy had no idea what was going on and until now they do not understand the situation and they say it was totally from ICANN,' he explained. Aside from the fact that domains are being seized seemingly at will, there is a very serious problem with the action against Torrent-Finder. Not only does the site not host or even link to any torrents whatsoever, it actually only returns searches through embedded iframes which display other sites that are not under the control of the Torrent-Finder owner."

Comments

Hoax

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a hoax. Whois the IP's involved.

Re:Hoax

[jhoegl]

I had a big ole analysis to post to this, but slashdot was complaining it was too long.

With that said, I dont know how you think this is a hoax. I see no proof one way or the other. It is leading back to a Hosting company in South Carolina.
Is this the original hosting company? Who knows. But it would be dependent on what the hosting company says about what is going on. Did they put up that graphic or did the owner of the site?
However, this story does not surprise me. We have given away so many freedoms that this could have been executed under any act, including the patriot act.

Re:Hoax

[jhoegl]

Looks like the site got redirected to that SC hosting company
After reading TFA I found SOFTLAYER is the host of torrent-finder.com/ torrent-finder.info
So... how is this a hoax? Please explain your findings.

Re:Hoax

[Svippy]

This is a hoax. Whois the IP's involved.

I did. And torrent-finder.info resolves to 208.101.51.56, while torrent-finder.com resolves to 74.81.170.110.

On first inspection, those two IPs seems to be very distant from one another IP-block-wise, but you never know with the internet, so both got a whois, and apparently 208.101.51.56 is owned by Softlayer (as a poster prior to me mentions), while 74.81.170.110 is owned by Caroline Internet, Ltd.

So maybe the guy changed the IP for his .com-address and bought hosting somewhere else? I don't know what this Caroline Internet, Ltd. But if he did buy a virtual machine at a datacentre, then I will say 'will played, good sir!' That is a lot of a bucks spend to fake a site takeover.

Re:Hoax

[mauriceh]

CarolinA Internet - Lets get that name straight first.
They are in Charlotte, NORTH Carolina - Lets get the location right as well.

They are well know for hosting porn and other dodgy sites.

AND they are crooks. A lot of their equipment has been fraudulently obtained.

https://www.caro.net/about

There, just setting the facts straight.

Re:Hoax

[Anonymous Coward]

Confirmed: Not a hoax. NetSol (used to be) private registration leads to immixGroup IT Solutions, working for the public-sector (US Government) out of Virginia.

See also: SEIZEDSERVERS.COM registered two days ago.

This isn't a question of your country giving away your freedoms. This is a question of international responsibility, lack of it, and the impartiality and global importance of the DNS.

Now, states seizing their own domains is one thing and subject to their laws, and the US does own .COM, .ORG and .NET and unilateral actions without any form of apparent judicial warrant or oversight like this will shift people away from them. The old WHOIS data was deliberately invalid, so under the rules, they don't need notice. Even so, one of the affected sites is a .TV - I wonder what Tuvalu would have to say about this, diplomatically speaking? dotTV may be 80% owned by Verisign, but it's still 20% owned by Tuvalu. I wonder if this was cleared by them?

International reaction from this could be interesting - the host is only a little tier2. They are watching, and it appearing on the news is obviously making a bit of noise. They may get substantially more interest than they expected in the short-term, but it will wane unless they do something really stupid like target a high-profile site or, God help us, a fully-autonomous ccTLD on the DNS root - which, on their little power-trip, they might. One does hope they wouldn't be so... foolish: bullies get their toys taken away.

Re:Hoax

[Svippy]

Thank you. The unintional misspelling of their name probably let to the wrong results online. Though, I did find caro.net, which seems to be a datacentre.

My point remains regarding whether it is a hoax. I doubt the owner of torrent-finder purchased a machine at a datacentre to successfully carry out the hoax.

So even if they are crooks, and does host porn and other dodgy sites. The conclusion should be that either the government is lending servers for their ceases from crooks (which would not seem unreasonable) or this was committed by hackers who liked to pose as government officials (though, I doubt how they got it through ICANN in that regard, if the owner is to be believed).

Re:Hoax

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe this can indeed be a hoax, the DNS configuration for torrent-finder.com is kind of odd or is at least not fully propagated yet, I am able to have three different sets of nameservers show.

Under a WHOIS, you'll see these two:
      Name Server: NS1.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM (74.81.170.109 - IP owned by CaroNet Managed Hosting)
      Name Server: NS2.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM (74.81.170.108 - IP owned by CaroNet Managed Hosting)
&
      Name Server: NS51.DOMAINCONTROL.COM (216.69.185.26 - IP owned by GoDaddy)
      Name Server: NS52.DOMAINCONTROL.COM (208.109.255.26 - IP owned by GoDaddy)

If I run a query through my local ISP, however, I get these two:
      Name Server: ns2.torrent-finder.com (74.81.170.108 - IP owned by CaroNet Managed Hosting, same IP as NS2.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM)
      Name Server: ns1.torrent-finder.com (74.81.170.109 - IP owned by CaroNet Managed Hosting, same IP as NS1.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM)

Now... If I query each set of nameservers, torrent-finder.com resolves to the same IP in two cases:
$host -t a torrent-finder.com ns1.torrent-finder.com -- results in 74.81.170.110
$host -t a torrent-finder.com ns1.seizedservers.com -- results in 74.81.170.110
$host -t a torrent-finder.com ns51.domaincontrol.com -- results in 208.101.51.57

If we do a WHOIS on seizedservers.com, we can find that the domain was registered on November 24th 2010.

Draw your conclusions.

Re:Hoax

[hey!]

Well, it looks fishy to me. Here are the questionable elements.

(1) The domain registration information information still lists a private domain owner and and admin contact.

(2) The name servers ns1.torrent-finder.com and ns2.torrent-finder.com, as well as the torrent-finder.com ALL redirect to addresses in a private hosting company (74.81.170.108, .109 and .110 respectively), physically in Charlotte, NC. The picture you're greeted with is served from one of the hosting company's addresses.

(3) Whois reports the registrar to be Go Daddy, but the name servers ns1 and ns2.seizedservers.com whose IP addresses aremanaged by a private company called "wild west domains".

(4) The "seizedservers.com" domain is controlled by a company called "immixGroup IT solutions". The registrar is network solutions and the registrant is using network solution's privacy service to block his contact identity.

Notice what is missing here: any reference to a government controlled host, domain or name controller. All we have is a set of privately procured and managed name and web servers with anonymous administrative contacts. There is literally *nothing* to connect the picture you are seeing at the torrent-finders.com website to DHS, other than the picture's *claim*.

A little googling shows this exact same picture shows up in similar "DHS seizure" cases, with the exact same pattern of private servers and domains leading back to some anonymity service and NO government ip addresses, domains or contacts involved, although the *private* domains and servers involved are different. If this were a DHS seizure program, wouldn't the trail lead back to the same government contacts?

It looks to me like this is either a hoax or a case of private hijacking by a private individual or group who uses different domains and accounts to cover his tracks.

Re:Hoax

[unixan]

The DNS is slowly rolling over. For example:

- Each of the GTLD servers ([a-m].gtld-servers.net) are delegating to ns[12].seizedservers.com

- Comcast's national opt-out DNS (75.75.75.75) has changed the delegation.

- OpenDNS.com's free filtering DNS (208.67.222.123) still delegates to ns5[12].domaincontrol.com, for about the next 3200 seconds (53 minutes) when its cache of the NS records expires.

Re:Hoax

[slashdotard]

If not a hoax, then it would seem that DHS/ICS may have overstepped it's authority or is outside it's jurisdiction and is stepping on the Secret Service's and especially the FBI's toes.

The FBI still has primary jurisdiction in copyrights violation cases, IIRC.

What may have happened here is that someone went to the FBI to shutdown the sites, was denied, then went agency shopping and found the DHS/ICS eager to make their internet bones.

This seems somewhat like the FBI and Secret Service inept & incompetent Keystone Kops actions from the 90's when the DMCA was enacted, up to and including going after innocent parties, without evidence, without investigation, based solely on hearsay.

If they are in fact acting outside their jurisdiction, I would hope that EFF and other attorneys give the DHS and ICS a justly deserved roasting in court. But the people who induced the DHS/ICS to do this would get off scot-free, even if they lied to DHS/ICS.

Re:Hoax

[Cylix]

Both godaddy and network solutions are reporting the create date as 11/24/2010 for seizedservers.com.

Everyone know the government does not move quickly. In fact, between purchasing and action I would be damned if they actually did something on time and on budget.

The other issue is there are lots of pretty graphics with all of the domains that are hosted with seizedservers.com. It's like one of those bad scams with information and pictures of pretty places. http://www.dailychanges.com/seizedservers.com/

In every take down instance they have simply flipped off the switch on the domain and took the folks to court.

It's either a hoax for traffic or someone snagged a domain.

Re:Hoax

[J0nne]

I don't see why the US government wouldn't subcontract these sorts of things. In fact, it makes a lot of sense to offload the hosting of an anti-piracy site to the private sector as you know it's going to get DDOSed and attacked.

Re:Hoax

[Hylandr]

Welcome to ACTA in America.

A Google search reveals they have taken down sites selling everything from Jerseys to Sunglasses,

They either moved to early, or the US has already approved it

- Dan.

Re:Hoax

[memyselfandeye]

I would agree this seems fishy. However as stated in this Directive ICE has the authority to do some fairly clandestine stuff without any approval, such as registering 'fake' domains to poorly beguile terrorists, miscreants, and other groups found the oracle on high deems unworthy. I suppose this could extend to transferring DNS to a sleazy hosting outfit... however I bet this is a little bit closer to home, sleezy outfits seem to attract one another. I seriously doubt DHS and ICE have anything to do with copyright infringement despite claims to the contrary, especially considering at least of the the 'victims' seems to be up and running.

P.S, The FEDs usually fell entire forests when delivering mail informing you of tax violations, compliance violations, legal violations, and penalties. It's usually quite unambiguous.

Re:Hoax

[Hylandr]

And here is the Executive Order

Read between the lines:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2010/11/17/executive-order-fundamental-principles-and-policymaking-criteria-partner

- Dan.

Re:Hoax

[anguirus.x]

Mod this down, it's not a hoax. I've posted further down about the on-the-record statement ICE has released to me confirming their involvement in these takedowns.

Re:Hoax

[anguirus.x]

Does anyone know whether immixGroup owns and administers Network Solutions (the registrar for seizedservers.com)? If not it would appear immixGroup have been hired by ICE-DHS to set up placeholding nameservers, serve up the graphic, and collect analytics on site visitors.

Re:Hoax

[mauriceh]

Agreed. There seems to be no evidence to support the "hoax" hypothesis.
However, no surprise that these sites are being hosted at , shall we say "shady" colo sites?
Probably the same ones that one finds spam and botnet servers at.

Re:Hoax

[AHuxley]

Yes if the feds want a domain for one day or a few years as honey pot, it will be done.
From CC hacking to porn to file sharing, the feds will seek, watch and get in, always climbing to the top/near the top of the admins list. After a set time of collecting info/ip's/methods/sorting the real back end vs groupies, they will close it down. Deals are offered to the connected to move to new groups as informants/start new sites and the honey pots spread out.
The only 'need' is for a person to know the slang/jargon to get in - the rest is done via long term, well funded open ended operations.

Re:Hoax

[TheLink]

Ignore this paragrpah: Slashdot says: Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 36.4).
Vestibulum venenatis mauris sit amet augue condimentum convallis. Donec hendrerit fringilla velit id sagittis. Nullam vitae metus sit amet justo malesuada congue. Aliquam eleifend metus sit amet lacus tincidunt nec lacinia dui malesuada. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Nam iaculis, lectus nec auctor sollicitudin, arcu ante commodo nunc, in aliquam elit risus at mi. Nullam tempor aliquam accumsan. Nulla facilisi. Donec ac risus in leo rhoncus euismod. Aenean placerat, ipsum eget accumsan rhoncus, erat elit consectetur metus, eget hendrerit lorem arcu ac metus. Nam non turpis ut odio cursus sodales sit amet at diam. Integer a mauris eu lorem placerat imperdiet eget sed erat. Phasellus viverra mauris quis arcu commodo vehicula. Sed vestibulum porttitor semper. Integer nisl massa, aliquet in tempus nec, mattis ut orci.

Try this instead:
1) whois torrent-finder.com
(or http://www.who.is/whois/torrent-finder.com/ if you don't have a cli whois that works)

Whois Server Version 2.0

Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net for detailed information.

Domain Name: TORRENT-FINDER.COM
Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
Name Server: NS1.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM
Name Server: NS2.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM
Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Status: clientRenewProhibited
Status: clientTransferProhibited
Status: serverDeleteProhibited
Status: serverTransferProhibited
Status: serverUpdateProhibited
Updated Date: 24-nov-2010
Creation Date: 30-dec-2005
Expiration Date: 30-dec-2011

>>> Last update of whois database: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 04:02:40 UTC <<<

NOTICE: The expiration date displayed in this record is the date the

[lots of legalese deleted]

including mining this data for your own personal or commercial purposes.

Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc.
is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database.

Registrant:
Torrent Finder
15 Alexandria St.
N/A
Alexandria, 55555
Egypt

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: TORRENT-FINDER.COM
Created on: 30-Dec-05
Expires on: 30-Dec-11
Last Updated on: 04-Oct-10

Administrative Contact:
Gadelkareem, Waleed kurtubba@gmail.com
Torrent Finder
N/A
N/A
Alexandria, 55555
Egypt
20121578967 Fax -- 2034411838

Technical Contact:
Gadelkareem, Waleed kurtubba@gmail.com
Torrent Finder
N/A
N/A

Re:Hoax

[Cylix]

What lines?!?

It's talking about social and faith based community jargon.

No where in there is anything which describes seizures.

Re:Hoax

[Cylix]

Confirmed... where confirmed.

You are spouting random giberish and then declared confirmed!

The disinformation in this thread is just appalling, but more concerning are the mods who just up anything that seems serious.

Re:Hoax

[Pf0tzenpfritz]

That's very interesting. I know some of the domains actually listed there from countless comment/referrer spamming attacks. There are even .cn domains listed, so I don't think there really is any government behind these DNS hijacks. But who else? Might even be related to the secunia hijacking earlier this week which was similarly mysterious.

Re:Hoax

[HermMunster]

I'm sure these people behind the torrent sites have their own arsenal to combat such efforts. I pity the dimwits that thought this scheme up. I don't think they want these guys attacking their infrastructure and redirecting tons of their sites, or even taking down of their servers for extended periods of time.

That aside, I don't think the government's actions are compliant with due process. This is purely prior restraint.

We don't know the stages that lead up to this. It could simply be some companies banded together to allege claims against a series of sites and a judged issued the order. But those orders don't last forever and something has to be done to pursue them. Of those sites that are innocent and caught in the middle they will have cause to sue, not just the government but those private entities that swore out the complaint.

I see it as a series of entertainment companies get with a few companies that are suffering from counterfeit goods getting the government to take down the counterfeit good's sites and sweeping the torrent sites with them, while hoping the government and the judge doesn't adequately understand the difference.

This is another misuse of the power granted to the Department of Homeland Security. Their charter is to protect Americans from terrorism. I'm sure at least in part this is the Homeland Security hoping to find some relevance. It's hard to have a nationwide body of authority with so little to do and so little that justifies their existence.

Re:Hoax

[HermMunster]

I've thought about the EFF's involvement only to come to the notion that there are so many misbehaving companies and so much misuse of power that the EFF is stretched so thin that those they try to help won't be adequately represented--not through negligence but through the EFF being spread so thin.

Re:Hoax

[Aussiewebmaster]

why would immixGroup need to host the image at another host when they sell hosting or the piwik analytics? And then add Google Analytics? Also seizedsites.com registration uses immixGroup IT Solutions whereas the company registers their domain under immixgroup.com I am verifying more but does not look right - but with risk of jail etc why put sites up on .info versions - and why did both torrent finder and rapgodfathers do that and not the .net they own?

Re:Hoax

[Thing 1]

When we pass laws (or Directives) allowing our agents to perform hidden "evil" actions, we're not benefiting society. I read here a few months ago a comment equating police actions to "evil" actions, where arrest is kidnapping, fining is theft, and the ultimate, death penalty, is the machinery of the state murdering a human being. We allow certain people in our society to perform these evil actions -- because we believe that it benefits society. But allowing the DHS to steal domains from citizens? That just doesn't sound right, on the face of it. So there must be something else going on, one would think, until one reads about this Directive.

Don't use godaddy

[Sean]

They have done things like this before.

Re:Don't use godaddy

[Anonymous Coward]

They have done things like this before.

[citation needed]

Really? Do you not read slashdot that often? Search Slashdot archives. There's your citation.

Re:Don't use godaddy

[Cylix]

Don't feed the trolls.

The citation needed horse shit is just an attempt to piss people off.

Slashdot is and always will be user contributions of expressed views and opinions. Facts or not this is not encyclopedia and I would rather it not be. In fact, if the citation needed folks want a wikpedia like meta-news site they can pretty run off and make their own. Good luck building a user base and all.

Re:Don't use godaddy

[Cederic]

Although traditionally it is common for people on Slashdot to ask "Do you have any references for that unlikely and troll-like statement of alleged fact you just surprised me with?" and [Citation Needed] is a de facto way of expressing such sentiments for illiterate and lazy people.

Re:Don't use godaddy

[Cederic]

Of course not, Slashdot is and always will be user contributions of expressed views and opinions. Facts or not this is not an encyclopedia.

Re:Don't use godaddy

[Sean]

Ask the author of nmap.

too popular, you get killed

[Gunstick]

the site was popular. So it's not if the contents is on the site, only in iframes or only linked. The site is popular and mostly used for "bad" stuff.
So it gets kicked.

Well, message to other torrent searches: don't become popular :-)

Or don't use .com or other top level domain under government control.

I wonder what would have happened if the site had only an IP address instead of a DNS name.

First?

Re:too popular, you get killed

[bjourne]

Just don't do business with American hosting companies. The government may not realize it, but in the long run, the only ones who'll suffer from fucked up decisions like this one is the IT industry.

Slippery Slope continues.

[Tovias]

How long before the government takes control of sites that hosts or links to information that the government just doesn't like or deems "unpatriotic"? What kind of oversight is involved before the government can just take down a site? I'm not pro-piracy or advocating it in any way, but I'm definitely all for due process.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Monkeedude1212]

What kind of oversight is involved before the government can just take down a site?

Thats the thing - apparently there isn't any! The site owner didn't know what was going on, and even his web host had to do some investigating to figure it out. If neither of them were adequately informed about whats going on - that suggests some serious inbalance in power. People worried about an Internet Kill Switch? This demonstrates they already effectively have access to such a mechanism.

And given that the site doesn't hosts the files themselves, only links to other sites - NONE of this should have happened. This is no different then me going "Hit Movie Torrent" in Google and clicking on a link that takes me to the sites with Torrents. Why hasn't Google been taken offline? In fact I'm sure most people who want to get into Torrenting go use Google to find the Bittorrent application. Then they use Google to find a torrent site.

It's injustice, they aren't blindly applying law as it should be - they're picking and choosing who they want. And the laws they've posted on the Torrent-finder aren't even relevant! Wilful Copyright infringement: Torrent finder isn't infringing on the copyrights. They are not hosting or distributing them either. Trafficking counterfeit goods - not only is a direct copy of the data not counterfeit but again, they aren't the ones trafficking the data.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

Why hasn't Google been taken offline?

Because they pay taxes in the USA. :P

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[bhagwad]

Isn't due process a constitutionally guaranteed right in the US?

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Monkeedude1212]

It should be. If I were the site owner, I would start a giant lawsuit in the multi-millions for damages caused. Not only for lost traffic (thus lost revenue) but also damages to their reputation.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[jhoegl]

Actually it wasnt the "site owner", it was a DNS redirect. Or in the hacking world a "DNS poison" initiated by the government, owners and controllers of ICANN.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[JWSmythe]

    I'd suspect it won't be very long. The Internet was generally untouchable. With flexing new found power, they will expand the use of it until the people complain too much about it.

    Consider air travel. It went from x-rays and metal detectors, to puff/sniffer rooms to detect for explosives, to full bodyscans and intrusive patdowns. When enough people started refusing to get more radiation on every flight than they get from normal medical screenings, it became a problem. And yes, I'm one of them. I refused standing in the machines, not for the sake of a political stand, but for the sake that it's not necessary. We, a people as a whole, are refusing to submit to the continued abuses, and they realize that they have to back down.

    I guess the question then becomes, what action will the people take about this? Do they passively accept that the government did this for our safety? Then the actions will continue. Soon enough, people will see that sites like this are now directed to seizedservers.com, with two IP's and the web server on the same subnet at CaroNet Managed Hosting, Inc, and the domains are now "owned" by "immexGroup IT Solutions", a government contractor. Expect the DDoS to begin, but not without retaliation by the government.

    Americans have become passivized. They may moan and groan about things that they don't like, but they won't take actions against it. Most likely, users of seized sites will just say "oh, that sucks", and move on to somewhere else, until they find that the other things they enjoy are gone also.

    Slashdot is down the list a bit, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if some folks would like to see it go away. There are the trolls, who can just (and still) be ignored. There are those who preach passive acceptance, which is in the best interest of the government overreaching their powers. And finally, there are some who say "Stand up against what you believe are injustices". If there's anything the government hates more than those who mess with corporate America, it's those who try to suppress the government's uncontrolled powers. And I am one of the later. If you don't like it, stand up against it. Don't just make a little noise. Make a lot. If you do this, you may find yourself with a good number of followers, and you yourself may find yourself participating in government. What would we do with leaders who actually believe in and protect the freedoms of the individuals?

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[dyfet]

I think they pay them in Ireland, actually, and at a nicely reduced rate, too :)

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Kazymyr]

Maybe they don't pay taxes, but they do pay "taxes", i.e. financial contributions to political campaigns.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[marcelC]

ImmixGroup seems to have "been awarded a contract with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Cyber Crimes Center (C3)" http://www.immixgroup.com/news/pr_display.cfm?ID=117 . That would make a hoax unlikely.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[visualight]

The only way to beat this is with money. A large scale boycott of big media would change everything, but that suggestion never gets any traction.

It's been almost 10 years since I purchased a CD, DVD, or a ticket to the movies. I say so in conversation whenever the topic comes up. I've suggested in on /. several times but it never seems to get any traction ('it's too hard, not enough people will participate so I won't either, etc).

Fools are always on slashdot bitching about the state of copyright law, all the while giving money to the greedy bastards that wrote those laws.

Stop worrying about whether enough people will support a boycott and just look at yourself. Find some personal integrity ffs.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[camperdave]

So? Due process does not involve informing the criminals* that you are shutting them down. Due process means getting court approval. Just because neither the website owner nor hosting service were informed does not mean that due process was not followed. Lack of communication does not imply lack of due process.

I am not saying that hosting a torrent site, or even linking to a torrent site is criminal.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why hasn't Google been taken offline?

Because they pay taxes^H^H^H^H^Hbribes in the USA. :P

FTFY.

Additionally:

FTC Drops Investigation of Google Less Than a Week After Company Exec Hosts Obama Fundraiser

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Monkeedude1212]

I am not saying that hosting a torrent site, or even linking to a torrent site is criminal.

Would you say that informing the public of what is considered criminal should be part of Due Process?

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[bhagwad]

Doesn't it require due process in order to label a particular act as criminal in the first place? And doesn't that involve the right to defend your act before it's labelled as criminal?

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[mschaffer]

Unfortunately, the US Government thinks the Constitution is just wasted toilet paper.
In the grand scheme of things, compared to the Guantanamo Bay detention facility, the TSA, and other jack booted trampling on civil rights, taking down a website is small potatoes.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[JWSmythe]

    I wasn't suggesting that it is a hoax. Actually, being a government contractor, I fully believed that they were authorized. Running on one IP, with both nameservers on the same subnet, it appears to be just a little site, and extremely vulnerable to DDoS traffic. It appears to be a Linux box running Apache. That gives no hints on it's capabilities. Slashdot effect may cripple it (if it had been posted in the story), or it may be a well equipped, and the only thing that would slow it down is the available bandwidth.

    It's kind of doubtful that anyone running a botnet would hit it though. They're usually after financial gain (extortion after downing a site). That's about what it would probably take to do it undetected. Really in the end it wouldn't matter though. If the servers are hit with a DDoS, the page simply won't load. Either way, as far as the government is concerned, the original site still isn't reachable.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Ethidium]

It is, and it's a fair question. Assuming that this is a real seizure and not a hoax, the due process works like this:

0) Somebody allegedly uses property for an illegal purpose. By law, they are deemed to have transferred title to the United States Government by dint of the illegal activity (if in fact the illegal activity can be proved).

1) The government files for a seizure warrant in US District Court. The owner of the property (here, the domain) does not get a say, nor any notice that this is happening.

2) The government seizes the property and provides notice to the owner, if known, and any person who might have a claim on it. For example, if the property is a car with a bank lien, they must notify the owner and the bank.

3a) The government files a complaint for forfeiture in US District Court (or in state court). This is called an "in rem" action--meaning that it's not a lawsuit against an individual, but a suit to determine title to property. The United States claims that it owns the property because of the transfer-by-law that occurred at zero, supra. Anybody who disagrees can stake their claim. The judge determines who gets the stuff.

3b) The government doesn't file anything, and the owner sues the government for a civil rights violation by unlawful taking of property without due process. The suit proceeds as above.

===

The cases determining whether due process has to occur pre-seizure or post-seizure are complicated, and beyond the scope of this author's knowledge or this post.

For reference, I am a lawyer and have posted this explanation based on my legal study, but it should be considered scholarship (information for general knowledge) and not legal advice (information specific to an individual's problems). If you are in need of legal advice, you should consult a qualified lawyer in your jurisdiction.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[bhagwad]

I'm interested in point "0" with the phrase in brackets, namely: "if in fact the illegal activity can be proved" To prove such a thing, doesn't the person who's allegedly using the property get to defend his or her actions?

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Culture20]

due process works like this:

Big Government takes whatever it says it's due. Unless you're another sovereign country, don't even try to stop the process.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[houghi]

Isn't due process a constitutionally guaranteed right in the US?

This proves that time travel is possible as you have clearly arrived directly from the 1960s. A lot has changed. Perhaps you might feel as if Soviet Russia had won and taken over the USofA, but that is not the case.

Do not be alarmed by strip searches in airports, the government spying on their own people or companies, not people, being the important ones. When you go back to the 1960s, look at all the people you will soon call 'hippies' as it is that generation that is doing this to us.

Perhaps when you go back, you can warn everybody and save us all. Bhagwad: the future of the world lies in your hands.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[gnapster]

I am pretty sure that siezure does not equate to the mentioned transferrence of title. If I am behind the wheel in a hit-and-run, the police may take my car in as evidence, but I don't actually lose ownership of the car until after my day in court. That does not mean that they can't take the vehicle without notice, with a warrant, before the trial has begun. But, if I am convicted of the crime, the vehicle is forfeit. Otherwise, it should be returned to me.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[bhagwad]

But will they seize your car without trying to contact you? I mean will you wake up one morning and find your car gone with a paper note in its place saying "We took it!"

My point is that people are required to be informed about stuff happening to them. You can't just decide beforehand what's going to be done and then do it without giving the other guy a chance to explain.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[camperdave]

I am not saying that hosting a torrent site, or even linking to a torrent site is criminal.

Would you say that informing the public of what is considered criminal should be part of Due Process?

No... Well... It depends on what you mean by "informing the public". It is the duty of the government to publish the laws somewhere, in some publicly available format. However, it is not the duty of the government to mount an ad campaign to say "Hey-Hey! There's a new law saying we can re-direct DNS queries". It is the responsibility of the citizen to know what the laws are. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[slashdotard]

No.

Evade the Constitution by calling it a civil action and then rig the rules to make any defense difficult if not impossible.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[gnapster]

Item (2), above, says that notice is provided once seizure takes place. If I walk out of the house in my bathrobe while they are loading the car on a wrecker, I would expect some explaination. But if they already have a warrant, I would not expect to be able to talk them out of it. (Perhaps I am wrong? I am no expert on rights in these scenarios.) But if I slept through the whole thing, or was not home, I don't know what would happen. Would they knock on the door? Leave a note? Call me and maybe leave a voicemail? Wait for me to call in and report* the car stolen?

In any case, I doubt that the requirements for contact during notice of seizure are as stringent as the requirements for, say, serving notice of court summons. Or maybe they are. But I agree: people should be informed either during such seizures or ASAP after the operation is finished.** The fact that the domain owner got his information from the registrar and not the authorities may say more about his diligent interest in the site's uptime than about the government's promptness in giving notice about these things. Perhaps there is a letter in the mail right now, sent by registered post.

However, as nice as it might be to have prior notice that the cops are going to come take my belongings, I don't expect them to set an appointment. If they think I am engaging in illegal activity, there is a long tradition in law enforcement of doing such things with no prior notice to those affected. Such notice would give criminals time to destroy evidence, leave town, stock up on ammo, or wire the car-to-be-confiscated with explosives. While I might not like the idea that my car can be seized without notice, the fact is that many, many seizures are performed in situations where real crimes have occurred, and giving notice does nothing but escalate the risk to law enforcement officers by an order of magnitude.

* "If he doesn't call the police, he must have something to hide!"
** Maybe the operation is not finished. There may be more that ICE is up to, and they might not give notice to domain owners until everything has been accomplished.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[bhagwad]

Good points, and I see where you're coming from. Of course in this case, there's no "risk" associated. Which makes me think there's something else going on since you can always email an owner and tell him/her that their revenue generating site (which hasn't yet been proven illegal) is being shut down.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Lanteran]

Honestly? I'm guessing 3 years, 7 tops.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have any idea what procedural Due Process actually is?

Legally, it is two things: (a) Notice and (b) the meaningful opportunity to respond.

"... statutes, regulations, and enforcement actions must ensure that no one is deprived of "life, liberty, or property" without a fair opportunity to affect the judgment or result." (Wikipedia)

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Monkeedude1212]

Of course not. But where is it published that the government can hijack the DNS?

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Lanteran]

In theory, yes. Just as is freedom of speech, but then you have 'first amendment zones'

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[agentbuzz]

I don't think we would know what to do with leaders who "...actually believe in and protect the freedoms of the individuals". It's an odd crank indeed who does nothing but to try to serve others. There is a "selfishness filter" that fairly effectively keeps all but narcissists, manipulators, and others who DON'T care about your freedom out of the "helping professions". Politicians, psychologists, preachers, and policemen are selected for duty because of their inordinately strong desire to control others. That's why so many Americans end up in prison, are committed to insane asylums or are subjected to ECT, get their pockets picked and their brains washed by guys with bad hair in polyester Sans-A-Belt slacks, and get beaten with clubs.
I don't "preach passive acceptance", but I am fresh out of ideas. What are yours?

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[BlueStrat]

I am not saying that hosting a torrent site, or even linking to a torrent site is criminal.

Would you say that informing the public of what is considered criminal should be part of Due Process?

No... Well... It depends on what you mean by "informing the public". It is the duty of the government to publish the laws somewhere, in some publicly available format. However, it is not the duty of the government to mount an ad campaign to say "Hey-Hey! There's a new law saying we can re-direct DNS queries". It is the responsibility of the citizen to know what the laws are. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Douglas Adams already covered this.

"`...You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them had you? I mean like actually telling anyone or anything.'
`But the plans were on display...'
`On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.'
`That's the display department.'
`With a torch.'
`Ah, well the lights had probably gone.'
`So had the stairs.'
`But look you found the notice didn't you?'
`Yes,' said Arthur, `yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of The Leopard".'"

Strat

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[camperdave]

Do you have any idea what procedural Due Process actually is?

Legally, it is two things: (a) Notice and (b) the meaningful opportunity to respond.

"... statutes, regulations, and enforcement actions must ensure that no one is deprived of "life, liberty, or property" without a fair opportunity to affect the judgment or result." (Wikipedia)

Is a DNS record yours, or ICANNs? You cannot jump to the conclusion that there was no due process simply because the website owner and hoster were not contacted. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I'm not saying there was due process. I'm not saying there wasn't. I'm not saying it was required, or that it was sufficient. I'm not saying it was unnecessary either. I'm not saying the action was illegal, immoral, or fattening nor am I saying it wasn't. For all I know this is a hoax (and I hope it is). All I'm saying is that you cannot jump to the conclusion that there was no due process simply because the website owner and hoster claim they were not contacted.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Naturalis Philosopho]

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Legally, you are of course correct. However, find me any person who knows all the laws the U.S.A. Please. Heck, even the people who have full, unfettered access to all legislation and case law, the Supreme Court, can't agree on interpretation of it once they look it up! It's stupid that an average person cannot hope to grasp all the laws related to running a local hardware store, let alone a website that serves to a national and international audience.

Hoax or not, this case spotlights how easily our current legal system can be used to spread FUD.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Rich0]

Based on the wording on the notice, if this was actually done by the government it was done under seizure laws.

Seizure is a legal principle where no human being is accused of a crime. Instead, the government files a complaint against the property itself, and then finds it guilty of crime. The constitution only grants human rights to humans, so the theory is that all those constitutional protections don't apply.

The fact that the property actually belongs to a human being isn't of great concern to the courts, apparently.

Of course, this is nothing more than an end-run around due process. If somebody tried to do this back in the 1780s there would have been lots of tar and feathers involved.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[bhagwad]

How convenient.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[camperdave]

Actually it wasnt the "site owner", it was a DNS redirect. Or in the hacking world a "DNS poison" initiated by the government, owners and controllers of ICANN.

Just because it has government logos and legal jargon written all over it, doesn't mean that the government did it.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Ignorance of the law became an excuse the moment it became impossible for a single person of average intelligence to learn off the entire legal code. The law may not recognise that excuse, but mere laws do not dictate right and wrong, merely "legal" and "illegal" - concepts no longer worthy of respect since the legal system has been captured by psychopaths.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[ms139us]

Isn't due process a constitutionally guaranteed right in the US?

That would be helpful.

True story. In the late 1990s my tax return was offset by several thousand dollars with zero notice. It turns out that an unethical family member had used my wife's SSN to get a loan for college when my wife was 12. This family member then defaulted and ignored warnings for years.

Fast forward a decade or so and the Treasury Department decided to get their money back, so after sending warnings to this family member, they took our joint return. Sadly, I couldn't even get anyone to explain the issue to me because my wife's name did not match the name on the loan, although her SSN did.

The Treasury Department's position was that they gave proper due process to the family member before taking our money.

The situation didn't move until our US Senator spoke to a deputy director at the Treasury Department. At that point the Treasury Department apologized for the misunderstanding and refunded the money.

The sad thing is that without my Senator stepping in, we would have had zero recourse on the matter.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[JWSmythe]

Politicians, psychologists, preachers, and policemen are selected for duty because of their inordinately strong desire to control others.

I found this out a long time ago, when I started on the path into law enforcement. My intention was to help people. It was too obvious that (generally) the profession isn't about that.

That's why so many Americans end up in prison, are committed to insane asylums or are subjected to ECT, get their pockets picked and their brains washed by guys with bad hair in polyester Sans-A-Belt slacks, and get beaten with clubs.

Sadly, you are correct. There are leaders, and followers. We fall into one of the two casts. In either cast, there are benevolent, greedy, and almost infinite shades of gray in between. Followers make great employees, brainwashed masses, or cultists. Benevolent leaders are few and far between. They're the ones who make excellent (military) officers, C-level executives, etc. Unfortunately, the greedy followers are likely to usurp the attempts of the benevolent.

I don't "preach passive acceptance", but I am fresh out of ideas. What are yours?

I have ideas. I can't say that I'm the mighty thinker and savior. I read a lot, listen when others talk, and analyze what they're saying. Most who jump forward and say "I have the better idea, follow me" frequent have a bad plan, if a plan at all. In general, it comes down to widespread and rapid change. People in general don't like change. They'll live in the same house for decades, even if it's falling apart around them. They'll stay with a terrible low pay job, even though they're qualified for something better. Change always requires a push in the right direction.

The last time I seriously analyzed the required change, it was during the Bush administration. It wouldn't have been very pretty, but it looked like the Bush administration was going to people enough to cause it. The push would have brought the people against the established administration, rather than encouragement to enjoy a peaceful future.

With the administration change, I don't see the people edging up on wanting to force the change. They're again passively accepting what their rulers are giving them. The only real exception to this is the TSA manhandling of constitutionally ensured liberties. Even this wasn't a huge revolt, it was simply enough people saying "No, you may not xray (or microwave) me". I too was one of those people, not as a political stand, but because I don't feel confident in the technology nor the handling of privacy (i.e., images of me through my clothes).

So what would I suggest? Passive resistance, followed by active resistance. Peacefully say "no" to actions were are constitutionally protected from. Say "no" to government abuses, and when threatened by arrest take that as pride that you are doing the right thing. Just make damned sure the "right" thing you are doing is really right. Groups, such as ELF (Earth Liberation Front), have a message, but are not doing the right thing to get their message across.

In time, either government will react appropriately and start treating the population as the should be, or ... well ... a bloody revolution will begin. Unfortunately, steps towards that were taken in 2006 with modifications of the Posse Comitatus Act and the Insurrection Act. If the people should resist, the military can enforce the government's decision. Unfortunately, through other laws, the people cannot possess anything resembling the same force that can be brought down upon them by the military.

I quote the Insurrection Act:

The President may employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to restore public order and enforce the laws of the

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[MeatBag PussRocket]

and yet for the sake of campaign contributions corporations are people, funny how that works, eh?

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[nobodie]

I am becoming more and more pro-piracy because of actions by the RIAA, the MPAA and now shite like this. Maybe I'm just too old, but my 60's/70's asshole hippiness is getting itchy.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[russotto]

And I am one of the later. If you don't like it, stand up against it. Don't just make a little noise. Make a lot. If you do this, you may find yourself with a good number of followers, and you yourself may find yourself participating in government.

Living in a government prison doesn't equate to participating in government.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[rthille]

Unfortunately, the government's opinion on the Constitution is a reflection of the people's opinion.

In general, it seems most people aren't in favor of freedom if it means risk. See the reaction to the new TSA procedures and how much actual opting-out and protest there really was.

Certainly during the Bush presidency, the administration was promoting fear, (and there is probably still more of that going on, but I haven't seen nearly as much of it, but I'm certainly biased) and even now the media pushes fear for their own purposes. But if the public weren't so easy to manipulate that way and so willing to trade freedom for "safety", the press and the political machines wouldn't be so successful.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[JWSmythe]

    Hopefully that leadership role can happen before incarceration. As far as I know, every government has legal provisions to mitigate dissidents, so incarceration or erasure (aka disappeared) is more likely. Anyone with enough backing is dangerous to the current administration, and will be neutralized.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[geekosan]

Somebody allegedly uses property for an illegal purpose.

Aren't property and creative property distinguished by the US Federal Constitution itself in that when creative property is taken away, the owner is not per se entitled to just compensation as in the case of property, real or personal? Then treating the two analogously would definitely cause problem which the feds seem to be feeding off.

The government files for a seizure warrant in US District Court.

Once again, this is for property real or personal, which is why if I'm not wrong, the COICA (Control of Online Infringement and Counterfeits Act) Bill is being moved for adding 2324 to the US Code to enable them to do what they are doing right now, though not as part of an investigative process but as an action in rem, and even extra-territorially. And most importantly, isnt it contradictory to regard the internet, which is a network of networks [needless to say, from both within and outside the US jurisdiction] as something that the US Government has sovereign jurisdiction in the plaintive sense of the term? In that sense, all countries have sovereign jurisdiction over it and if the US Government decides to unilaterally control how the network is going to work, then diplomatically speaking, the US Government has committed a breach of sovereign immunity of every other country that has access to the Web... And lastly, a domain name, being an integral part of the web isn't to be equated with any kind of property for the same reason why no one can claim ownership over the high seas; they connect the world and belong to every country equally. I'm just a law student and I do not specialize in US Laws so anyone wanting to trust what I said, your headache.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[im_thatoneguy]

Who says there has to be a law. People bitch and moan about government intrusion but the government can act unconstitutionally if they "ASK" and private businesses don't offer 1/10th or 1/100th the rights that the government has to respect.

Why go through all the trouble of passing laws when private businesses (In this case the registrar) can just put in a clause that says "We may rescind your DNS at any time for activity which support piracy."

Then all the government has to do is just say "Hey ______ Company, ________.net/.com/.tv appears to support piracy." Gone. No court order. No legal system. Just good old fashioned private business.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[niftymitch]

At this point it is clearly not a hoax.

It does involve a foreign national interacting with property in the US. Involved in undisclosed criminal activities..... Had this been a US citizen or US Corporation I think other activities would have taken place.

One interesting point seems to be that any foreign national can have its service shutdown in a very opaque way.

Had this been a mechanical robot under control of a foreign individual in the process of importing anything illegal it would make sense. Say a drug carrying speed boat... but how far does this go.

What if the issue was a machine shop with employees where ten percent of the parts being machined were illegal. Real people, real wages, real patent or trademark infringements. All with real remote control by a foreign..?

Now search and replace all your thoughts on this with a major multinational company like BP. Under control by a foreign national, robots, real damage.

In a heart beat the company and assets would be nationalized little different than the nationalization of the Chilean copper industry in the late 60's and early 70's.

Is this a plan or the paranoid musings of someone with a long memory that watched what Chile did....

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[HTH NE1]

It is the duty of the government to publish the laws somewhere, in some publicly available format.

Tell that to the TSA.

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[alexo]

Seizure is a legal principle where no human being is accused of a crime. Instead, the government files a complaint against the property itself, and then finds it guilty of crime. The constitution only grants human rights to humans, so the theory is that all those constitutional protections don't apply.

Can I use the same procedure to file a civil lawsuit against government property?

Re:Slippery Slope continues.

[Rich0]

Can I use the same procedure to file a civil lawsuit against government property?

Sure. Uh, assuming congress passes a law to allow you to sue them (sovereign immunity and all that)...

Bullshit

[metrix007]

I can't believe the scare tactics that are being used, as well as the fact there was no good reason to take this guys domain. What kinds of bullshit powers are these where people don't have a chance to defend their property, when it isn't even being user to solicit illegal activity as per caselaw?

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

America has now officially become a tyrant. Fuck you all.

You forgot to shout "Admiral Akbar!"

There goes U.S. Control of ICANN.

[unity100]

in 3, 2, 1 ...

Re:There goes U.S. Control of ICANN.

[unity100]

u.k. is the clone of u.s. a more fascist one.

Homeland Security...

[TheLink]

Good to see the US Gov has its priorities right.

I'm sure everyone in the US can sleep easy at night, knowing that Homeland Security is keeping a vigilant eye over torrents and other similar threats to the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.

Re:Homeland Security...

[gstoddart]

I'm sure everyone in the US can sleep easy at night, knowing that Homeland Security is keeping a vigilant eye over torrents and other similar threats to the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.

Have you missed the parts lately where protection of US copyrights is a matter of national security?

Why do you think that god awful ACTRA treaty is being pushed down everyone else's throats?

Expect this to become commonplace -- anything which can deemed to have a primary function of telling people where to download copyrighted works will be squashed quite thoroughly. I fully expect the RIAA/MPAA to allow the rest of us to use the internet under their terms now.

Re:Homeland Security...

[Spad]

It *is* a matter of national security. The US and other "Western" nations have now farmed out so much of their manufacturing infrastructure to places like China that pretty much the only thing they "make" any more is Intellectual Property. Thus, protecting that property from anything that removes its revenue stream from their control - be that Torrenting, counterfeiting or the heinous crime of listening to a song twice having only paid for it once - is essential to ensure the continued survival of the economy.

Re:Homeland Security...

[westlake]

I'm sure everyone in the US can sleep easy at night, knowing that Homeland Security is keeping a vigilant eye over torrents and other similar threats to the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.

ICE is U.S.Immigration and Customs Emforcement, the principal investigative arm of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the second largest investigative agency in the federal government.

ICE now has more than 20,000 employees in more than 400 offices in the United States and 46 foreign countries.

Crimes with an interstate and international dimension are a federal responsibility --- and that is something the geek is going to have to learn to live with.

Cyber Crimes Center

Re:Homeland Security...

[NoSig]

Why do you think that god awful ACTRA treaty is being pushed down everyone else's throats?

Is "pushing down everyone throats" the new American general-purpose substitute for "I disagree with this proposal" or does it have meaning beyond that?

Re:Homeland Security...

[ldconfig]

If Intellectual Property is real property then why are there no property taxes on it? How does Comcast get away with selling TV thats already paid for with commercials? When did the bill of rights become a technicality? Why is it legal to waterboard someone but using bit torrent to download a Linux distro is a danger to us all? What good are those electronic strip search machines when the drug dealers get their stuff through airports everyday with no problem? Why is it illegal in most states to drive with headphones on but a deaf person has no problem getting a drivers license? I don't really expect a reasonable answer to any of my questions. Because their are not any besides the fact we are all SUCKERS. The rich and powerful know we won't riot we won't vote in mass and we will keep on paying our taxes. So theres no need to ask why is my broadband bill 70 bucks a month while the rest of the world gets much faster service at a fraction of the price ... We are SUCKERS. Thank goodness I'm an old man and won't have to put up with all this for much longer because the future is nothing to look forward too ... High School Class of 2010 less than 25% passed the SAT (search /. the story was posted here about the class of 2010 so don't accuse me of making it up please) so the next generation is dumb as wood. I do hope I live long enough to see all our technology break down and no one is left that is smart enough to fix it. Its not global warming that should scare us but rather the mass breeding of morons.

Re:Homeland Security...

[jordan_robot]

Well, who's fucking fault is that? Greedy bastards, that's who. Gluttonous consumers must have the latest crap for less. Corporations must acquire more profit for bigger bonuses. Investors must make more return than they did last month. I could keep going, but we all are familiar with this train of thought.

Re:Homeland Security...

[gstoddart]

Is "pushing down everyone throats" the new American general-purpose substitute for "I disagree with this proposal" or does it have meaning beyond that?

First of all, I'm not an American.

Second of all, a treaty which was negotiated in private and the text of the treaty kept secret ... well, not so much with the democratic bits.

Third, there was a lot of pressure from US for other nations to adopt this under threat of trade sanctions. The objections of groups in countries where this was being brought in was more or less ignored.

This is entirely a law that is designed to protect copyright interests, at the insistence of the US, and to the detriment of everybody else. The Internet is now subservient to the RIAA and MPAA, as well as their corresponding lobby groups in other countries -- hell they wrote most of the text, so the law will be stacked in their favor with things like mandatory three strikes laws to cut people off from having internet access.

So, yes, it means a hell of a lot more than "I disagree with this proposal".

Maybe you should do a little research on this heavily contested treaty.

Re:Homeland Security...

[ScrewMaster]

When the rest of the world figures out that they don't need us anymore since we're too broke to buy their products they'll just ignore all the damn treaties and let us sink into failed state status like Afghanistan or Somalia.

If we're lucky, a gang of lawyers will go to China to try to sue and get run over by tanks. That little human rights violation I could live with. Hell, that I'd enjoy.

Hardly. You think that the mindset that created an ACTA only exists in the United States? A lot of Europeans seem to think that (if nothing else, it gives some some more imaginary ammo for America-bashing) but it's just not true. The unfortunate reality is that the corporations behind this aren't (for the most part) even American, so don't expect this to stop should the entire continent of North America vanish from the face of the Earth tomorrow. Europe is on target to be screwed in exactly the same way, for exactly the same reason, by exactly the same people. This particular agenda is put forth by some very powerful multinationals and, to make a long story short, they're criminal assholes who simply do not care who they hurt, whose culture or legal system they damage, as long as they can control distribution of their products as they deem fit. The fact that these plans happen to mesh quite nicely with those of governmental power mongers who, like weeds, seem to spring up pretty much everywhere just makes them easier to ram through.

The human race really needs to start considering megalomania and similar mental conditions as serious disorders, and either find ways to treat them successfully, or simply bar anyone suffering from them from public office, elected or otherwise. There are plenty of competent, sane people to fill those positions, we don't need to select for any of several psychoses. But we do, and the net effect is that we have people who are highly qualified at the process of getting elected, not so qualified at the actual job.

Re:Homeland Security...

[BitZtream]

Seriously?

You're saying we should focus on absolutely nothing but homeland security and ignore every other part of our society?

Or is it just that you feel the need to defend a site as if it was innocent. I really don't care what they hosted on their site, its purpose was clear, to facilitate sharing of copyrighted material.

You, and most of slashdot seem to think that just because you skirt around technicalities in the law that its suddenly okay to do so, because you get your way. In reality, as has been since the dawn of time, when you try to cheat your way past the law it will eventually come around and get you.

Its really fucking retarded for anyone to expect anything different than this outcome eventually, and I wouldn't want it any other way.

If you don't like the laws, CHANGE THEM, stop trying to cheat them and then act all outraged when it catches up to you. Its time slashdot stops acting like a bunch of 15 year old Stallman look alikes.

Re:Homeland Security...

[NoSig]

If your description of the situation is accurate, I agree that your use of the phrase is accurate. I thought you were a republican American since you were adopting their latest rhetoric, and I was curious to see how such a person would explain that rhetoric since it doesn't seem to make sense to me in the way they use it.

Re:Homeland Security...

[emt377]

Or is it just that you feel the need to defend a site as if it was innocent. I really don't care what they hosted on their site, its purpose was clear, to facilitate sharing of copyrighted material.

Maybe, but why is it a homeland security issue, since when does ICE investigate copyright and other private property disputes, and what happened to the right to due process? Since when can the government intervene in civil disputes by simply seizing property without even bothering with a search warrant? I don't remember us ever granting it these rights. In fact it makes me sick that to see our republic and its citizenry raped like this by our hired bureaucrats.

Re:Homeland Security...

[MooPi]

There were possible WMD in the torrents that were also funding suspicious terrorist elements via torrents. Those internet thingy pipes are verwy verwy dangerous.

Re:Homeland Security...

[Shark]

There are plenty of competent, sane people to fill those positions, we don't need to select for any of several psychoses.

The people with the kind of integrity and intelligence required, though common, also lack desire to be in control. I think that what is needed is a sense of personal duty. It should be your duty to try to be elected not because you want to be but because you *don't*.

And that goes for a lot of you reading this. You don't have to aim for President of the US there. Any public office will do. Run for sheriff, town councillor, etc. Learn the constitution and stand by its (and your) principles. If you can't run, encourage others to study these principles and run. We don't even need power and influence to defeat the establishment, we can very easily manage with sheer numbers.

Re:Homeland Security...

[blarkon]

The economic future of the US is dependent upon the enforcement of intellectual property law. If you want to get an idea of what would happen if IP law went away, read Bruce Sterling's Distraction. Copyright is as much a matter of national security as ensuring that oil shipments to the US still occur. The US can't compete in manufacturing. Cannot compete in agricultural production. The only area the US can compete is in the generation of ideas.

Notification

[Amorymeltzer]

Ignoring all other issues, doesn't the government need to notify you when they seize your property? I can't imagine they would take your car or computer and just have you figure it out when you get home at night to find it missing, like seems to have happened here.

Re:Notification

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't need to notify you. They need to notify the court and a court has to issue a search warrant. In this case, it is just a seizure of property.

But then the whois information for Torrent Finder,

Registrant:
      Torrent Finder
      15 Alexandria St.
      N/A
      Alexandria, 55555
      Egypt

      Administrative Contact:
            Gadelkareem, Waleed kurtubba@gmail.com
            Torrent Finder
            N/A
            N/A
            Alexandria, 55555
            Egypt
            20121578967 Fax -- 2034411838

So, the contact information is most likely bogus. maps.google.com can't find that address. Heck, it's not even remotely close to street names in Alexandria. The phone numbers lead to a mobile phone and some fixed line (for fax). So that *could* be correct... But then heck, this could be part of some anti-terrorist operation too and who knows, maybe torrent-finder.com was used to sponsor terrorism??

In any case, maybe try contacting the people that have the domain now to figure out what has happened.

Re:Notification

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

this has been my #1 problem with whois information. every domain should contain up to date whois information, and it should be checked every 90-180 days. failing a check should result in immanent expiry of the domain (after sufficient warning has been issued).

Re:Notification

[rickb928]

Well, the phone +011 20 12 157-8967 would resolve to a mobile number in Egypt, the area code being non location-specific.

+011 20 3 441-1838 (the fax number) would resolve to Alexandria, Egypt, area code 3 and all.

201-215-78967 doesn't work as a DC-area number.

So let's believe the contact data and stipulate that Waleed lives in Egypt.

Also, he registered some other domains that have names consistent with an Arab-based business. And DHS might, just might, have some other interest in an Egyptian web site than just torrents, though the content it linked to might be the problem.

I'm not happy with these confiscations, but this doesn't seem to be as pointless as it might.

Oh well, another great story shot to hell.

Re:Notification

[Patch86]

Why must we go "the guy and site are based in Egypt, therefore they must be related to terrorism!".

Not every one of the billion or so Muslims (quarter of the world's population, dontchaknow) is a terrorist. That's just indulgent media nonsense, and you mustn't give in to it.

Re:Notification

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

Really? off topic?

nobody thinks that maybe they would have informed the domain owner that they were doing something court ordered if they could contact him/her via the standard whois data?

Re:Notification

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

Which would be EXACTLY the same thing.

if you can't get a hold of the domain owner, how does somebody like the US Gov't make a complaint to the domain owner?

Anybody think that MAYBE the Torrent-finder guy didn't get any information about the status of the domain getting pulled, might have been because nobody could contact him at the administrative contact listed at ICANN?

Personally, if I were asked by a government organisation to re-point a DNS name I had listed on my servers to them under a court order, I'd tell them it'd be complete in 48 hours, and check the whois for the domain. if there was a contact listed (personally I'd go for the technical contact, and let him tell his boss!) I'd fire them an e-mail, and maybe leave them a voicemail. Just a thought though.

Also: if you're going to call somebody a fucktard, you better be logged in. Otherwise nobody is going to give two shits that some internet troll "said something that one time".

Well let's just fix that.

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

who's got the IP of torrent freak? let's just get together and put up a public DNS server somewhere of domains that have been blocked.

Re:Well let's just fix that.

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

and by that, apparently I mean torrent-finder... which I've never even heard of. o.O

Re:Well let's just fix that.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://torrent-finder.info/
http://208.101.51.57/

same destination

Re:Well let's just fix that.

[camperdave]

http://torrent-finder.info/ http://208.101.51.57/

same destination

At this point, isn't the horse out of the barn? How do you know that 208.101.51.57 is the real ip address or the corrupt one?

208.100.11.174

[bradley13]

208.100.11.174

Re:208.100.11.174

[booyabazooka]

Awesome. Imagine if real-life justice worked like this. The cops discover that you're selling drugs from your home. They decide that arresting you would be too much hassle, so instead they just pull the numbers off of your mailbox. No one can find you anymore, problem solved!

Alternative DNS

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe its time to support alternative DNS resolution that is outside of the governments control and possible a network of VPN's or Onion-like routing.

Re:Alternative DNS

[Monkeedude1212]

I second that motion.

Re:Alternative DNS

[psyclone]

Ask new.net how successful they are?

Hint: they failed. They've been providing an Alternate DNS Root for over a decade, and now they resort to a browser plugin as they couldn't convince any ISPs to include their roots in local resolvers.

Re:Alternative DNS

[NoOneInParticular]

It shouldn't even be too difficult to use bittorrent to distribute the correct database

Re:Alternative DNS

[RewriteQuran]

http://torrent-finder.info/ works!

It's all about Money

[bkmoore]

Unless you've been living behind Jupiter, you probably have figured out that the government is for sale to the highest bidder. You can bet that the RIAA, MPA, etc. have all made their political donations and now are cashing in. Most legislation in America is written by lobbyists anyway. But it's nice that the DHS is keeping us safe not just in the skies, but online as well.

Re:It's all about Money

[Culture20]

Unless you've been living behind Jupiter,

What, Uranus is not funny anymore?

Professor Farnsworth already explained that. Watch more Futurama.

Re:It's all about Money

[BitZtream]

Couldn't possibly be about the law or anything, I mean, that would be too easy.

Its far more efficient to get people riled up by spewing ignorant statements like yours.

Re:It's all about Money

[bkmoore]

The question is who writes the laws and for what interests they are working for. Copying copyrighted works is against the law, as is downloading them. I agree with you on this point. Where I disagree is do we shut down a web site which provides links to torrents, some of which are illegal. Under this logic, I could argue shutting down a hardware store because they sell tools which could be used to break into a house and steal the DVD collection. So in my opinion, the government is working in the interests of the copyright holders and not in the interest of the greater society at large.

I'm sorry my statement is ignorant, and gets people riled up. You are right, I am ignorant. I haven't the slightest idea how the U.S. government actually works. So all I have to go on are my opinions. If you have more knowledge, please elaborate how this isn't related to money.

Re:It's all about Money

[Lanteran]

What're you talking about? Us nightsiders have had routing satellites for decades. We know all about it.

Not the hope and change you're looking for

[Anonymous Coward]

$9 million of campaign contributions buys you a lot I guess.

Re:Not the hope and change you're looking for

[bkmoore]

For all their shouting matches, the thing both parties have in common is both offer their legislative services to the highest bidder. The voters only matter on election day if at all. Actual elections are tolerated as a necessary evil. Where I originally come from, the one thing both Republicans and Democrats actually agree on is gerrymandering themselves safe districts to prevent elections from actually deciding anything.

Re:Not the hope and change you're looking for

[SuricouRaven]

It is said that America has the best laws money can buy.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement!?

[Spazmania]

What possible basis could Immigration and Customs Enforcement have for seizing a domain name associated with bit torrent? I can see a dozen ways the USG could reasonably go after a bit torrent tracker, but this one just doesn't make sense.

Re:Immigration and Customs Enforcement!?

[Rockoon]

Wait till someone tells them that you can find Torrents with Google.

Re:Immigration and Customs Enforcement!?

[bkmoore]

They won't block google because google has made political donations and has some lawyers, probably not as many as Oracle, but enough.

Re:Immigration and Customs Enforcement!?

[gstoddart]

What possible basis could Immigration and Customs Enforcement have for seizing a domain name associated with bit torrent?

Customs is responsible for enforcing bringing illegal goods into the US as I recall. A torrent of a movie with a US copyright has now been categorized as this -- at least, that's my guess.

In short, the US government is now an enforcement arm of the RIAA/MPAA cartels, and they're forcing treaties on almost everybody else to make sure that this can now happen worldwide. Basically, the internet is now under the control of multi-national corporations.

Re:Immigration and Customs Enforcement!?

[SuricouRaven]

It has been for some time - they are just getting better at working with different multi-national corporations for mutual benefit at the expense of the users.

Durr hurr

[Anonymous Coward]

> "Not only does the site not host or even link to any torrents whatsoever, it actually only returns searches through embedded iframes which display other sites that are not under the control of the Torrent-Finder owner."

When is the nerd class collectively going to get over its spergtastic fantasy that the technical letter of the law is far more important than its intent? (For that matter, how is an iframe not a link, or even opening an iframe showing one not 'providing' it?) This kind of blatant attempt at an end run is the IT equivalent of "I didn't kill him, your Honor, bleeding out killed him" and serves as nothing more than a tacit admission of guilt to anyone who doesn't spend their evenings and weekends fighting holy wars over technical minutiae.

Then again, it's not even relevant in this case, as it appears to be a mass seizure of property held by a group which imports counterfeit goods.

Re:Durr hurr

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

In your analogy, it would be like saying:

"I didn't kill him your honor: all I did was point out who did."

posting a link to other content is not in any way analogous to killing someone. hell, in this case it helped the copyright police FIND the infringers.

to me, this is like taking a Private Investigator to court for "not reporting a crime before it had sufficient evidence to even know what was going on was a crime."

Re:Durr hurr

[SuricouRaven]

That nerd class is trained to think in very exact terms. A line of code does something, as does a configuration setting, or the position of a jumper. It does what it does, not always what the person who designed it wished it to do. In a well-designed system those two things are the same, but if you ever want to fix anything technological you need to know the distinction between what things are designed to do and what they actually do.

Re:Durr hurr

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

I like the subject here. "Re:Durr hurr"

The copywrong system is horribly broken as it currently exists. Content that somebody deems as "their life's work" is the single largest waste of intellectual effort humankind has ever gone through.

If you were to paint a picture, that object would likely be worth something. if I take a photo of that painting, and publish it on the net, all I have done is increase the value of that painting: now that people have seen and enjoyed (or potentially not enjoyed) said painting, the desire for SOMEBODY to own it increases.

If you put together a string of images into an order that communicates an idea to someone, and decide to charge for access to see that "video": in my books you've done nothing but hurt yourself. Where will that money get you? sure, you'll get a fancy car tomorrow, maybe a nice house to leave to your kids: but what then?
If the only point of anything is to please ones-self for a few years that one happens to be around, I see that as nothing but selfish bullshit.

Share the idea. Get a physical distribution method down, get your ideas TO people in a way that they want. obviously people don't want to go to theaters/rent DVD's/listen to advertisements mixed with the content. So come up with something else, something that evolves and changes to meet the people's desires.

When you do that, and somebody abuses THAT system: then feel free to get back to the legal system.

Re:Durr hurr

[Sepodati]

If you put together a string of images into an order that communicates an idea to someone, and decide to charge for access to see that "video": in my books you've done nothing but hurt yourself.

That's absurd. Does the same apply to those that put together a string of words that communicates an idea, i.e. a book? There's nothing wrong with being allowed to profit off of your idea for a short amount of time. Keyword being short. I think copyrights are the correct thing, but they are WAY too long and hurt innovation overall.

-John

Re:Durr hurr

[Sowelu]

I would argue that it's more like:

"I didn't kill him, Your Honor, I just directed the murderer to some killers-for-hire I knew."

Seems like that clearly makes you a party to it.

Re:Durr hurr

[Crudely_Indecent]

Just stop helping people infringe on copyrights

Because we all know that torrents are only used for distributing copyrighted material.

Oh, wait, I forgot about those legitimate uses like software and media distribution. Just look at the media being distributed on bittorrent.com

Re:Durr hurr

[Sepodati]

I never said that. I know it can be used legally. I have nothing against the protocol or sites that distribute legitimately.

bittorrent.com looks like a place where you download the BT software and an interface to the ASK search engine. But what do they advertise? "Internet's richest media" with background images of Prison Break, Harry Potter, Simpsons, etc. They show a download of Strangers with Candy, Universe at War (a game, apparently). So while I don't see anything specifically wrong with the site, even they use the capability of infringing as an advertisement of the protocol.

If you guys want to protect the protocol itself (and I do), stop defending the sites that primarily exist to promote using the protocol to infringe on copyrights.

Re:Durr hurr

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

...How in ANY way does that analogy work?

A bit torrent tracker is completely unaware of the content it links to. the administrator OF that tracker may have included logic to determine the "copyright status of some material in some part of the world" but even that's far from perfect (in what I HOPE would be obvious ways)

What you have to keep in mind here is that technically no PHYSICAL CRIME is being committed. only a thought crime ever takes place. no murder/death/theft analog will ever work for digital data, for the same reason an intelligent judge came to and to quote Chris Miller's work:

“To use the rather colourful imagery that internet piracy conjures up in a highly imperfect analogy, the file being shared in the swarm is the treasure, the BitTorrent client is the ship, the .torrent file is the treasure map, The Pirate Bay provides treasure maps free of charge and the tracker is the wise old man that needs to be consulted to understand the treasure map.”
I think the analogy is quite accurate, with the exception of the treasure being something congruous to gold doubloons. To be more accurate, the treasure would magically self-replicate itself – at first from the goldsmith’s treasure chest, and then from each pirate to have pirated a piece; but by doing so, because of the treasure’s self-replicating ability, no one is ever deprived of any of the treasure. Rather, the treasure can be spread to a much greater magnitude of pirates, many of whom may otherwise never have known about the treasure or its (magical) goldsmith. With a much greater pool of fans for his/her gold, the goldsmith would have a better chance of making money off their treasure – by making more treasures, offering them in ways that pirates would be willing to pay for, and even charging pirates to see the goldsmith work his/her magic in person.

how exactly does one "be a party" to someone who made a copy of information? should camera makers be sued to "helping people reproduce artwork"? or photocopier manufacturers be bankrupted because they "allowed someone to copy someone's 'lifes work'"?

No one was deprived of anything, no one was inconvenienced, hell: the distributor may have even made MORE in DVD sales of a movie after people had a chance to see a low quality version of it online.

copyright, in a world that is not limited to the ability to reproduce material, does not work: it's a simple fact. If you go back to your economics 101, when supply and demand controls most markets: and when you have an unlimited supply: what do you get?
let me give you a hint: it's not 0 demand.

Collecting IP addresses...

[Low Ranked Craig]

Also note that they are also collecting IP address information of people who visit the site...

try { var piwikTracker = Piwik.getTracker(pkBaseURL + "piwik.php", 1); piwikTracker.trackPageView(); piwikTracker.enableLinkTracking(); } catch( err ) {}

They also have google analytics turned on - UA-19806388-1

Re:Collecting IP addresses...

[phyrexianshaw.ca]

well, good thing I always connect to sketchy sites via a set of proxies with a sandbox virtual machine! :P

Re:Collecting IP addresses...

[nurb432]

Well of cousre they are, as only criminals would go there. I wonder if that will be considered 'intent to defraud' and be enough for a search warrant of your home?

Also, why is ICE involved? I would not think that would be the appropriate agency?

Re:Collecting IP addresses...

[FooAtWFU]

I have some bad news for you. You don't actually need JavaScript trackers to collect IP addresses of visitors to your website. It happens automatically, really.

Re:Collecting IP addresses...

[Spad]

Your computer is currently broadcasting an IP address! With this address, someone can immediately begin hacking your system!

Re:Collecting IP addresses...

[duguk]

Also note that they are also collecting IP address information of people who visit the site...

try { var piwikTracker = Piwik.getTracker(pkBaseURL + "piwik.php", 1); piwikTracker.trackPageView(); piwikTracker.enableLinkTracking(); } catch( err ) {}

They also have google analytics turned on - UA-19806388-1

Oddly, they're detecting HTTPs and using "https://74.81.170.107/piwik/" - which doesn't have a valid security certificate. Course that doesn't mean much, but it's an idiotic mistake.

Not that they need JS to store IPs anyway.

Re:Collecting IP addresses...

[SuricouRaven]

If they really wanted IP addresses to go after, they would have collected them before the changeover. A simple matter of getting a wiretap warrant for that server's ethernet port, and perhaps explaining to the sysadmin at that data center what 'obstruction of justice' means if he doesn't agree to cooperate.

Re:Collecting IP addresses...

[BitZtream]

uhm ... every website on the planet collects IPs of the people who visit it?

Are you retarded or just have no clue how the Internet actually works?

Re:Collecting IP addresses...

[Low Ranked Craig]

Of course, but they are actively utilizing additional analytics programs as well, just to make sure. Obviously visitors IPs will be in the server log, as will be the referrer...

Re:Collecting IP addresses...

[flowwolf]

I was under the impression that sites like 4chan did not log IP addresses at all. They make sure there is no logged record of any connections to their servers. This is what I am led to believe anyways.

Re:Collecting IP addresses...

[Eudial]

Who cares? I'm the millionth visitor of this page, and have won a new computer! All I need to do is enter my credit card number...

we need more liberal control

[Anonymous Coward]

If only we had a powerful idealogical liberal/progressive government in control, we could halt this wave of warrentless searches and seisures....

O wait... meet the new boss... I forgot.

Re:we need more liberal control

[windcask]

Wake up, man. The rights of the individual are not a partisan issue. Progressives will stand behind you if you want to shit on the Bible or burn the flag, sure, but they'll be the first to sign a bill to keep you from smoking or eating French Fries.

So how does this relate? Neither side really cares about individual rights except when it relates to their talking points or agenda, so don't expect either to be free of the influence of the entertainment industry.

Re:we need more liberal control

[Larryish]

That was very well written.

I am now going to copy your work and post it on various other forums, and give you no credit at all. :)

Caiman islands anyone?

[Drakkenmensch]

Expect all domain name providers to move there REAL soon.

If you want to torrent....

[3seas]

just put "legal" in the name.
try legal torrents in google..

Re:If you want to torrent....

[Calydor]

"Get your free illegal torrents here!"

Re:If you want to torrent....

[igreaterthanu]

That is why I use this as my search provider in Chrome.

You know...

[windcask]

Usually, I try to find the opposite side of the story and see things from the perspective of the people who are making and enforcing these laws to protect our country and our people's interests.

I got nothing. This is unadulterated bullshit. This basically says that the interests of the music and movie industries are put up on such a high pedestal in this country that they can and will circumvent due process when it suits them.

Party Pooper

[Thing I am]

Hey don't take away our fun of believing everything we read on the Internet and making wild speculations!

DAMN YOU GEORGE BUSH!!!

[Vinegar Joe]

I can't wait for Obama to be inaugurated!

Re:DAMN YOU GEORGE BUSH!!!

[Excelcior]

Somebody, mod this up!

If this isn't a hoax...

[Anonymous Coward]

...then it's rather clear that the U.S. gov't is taking advantage of ICANN's incestuous relationship with their benefactor, the U.S. Dept. of Commerce.

Now's the time to seriously start looking at alternative DNS frameworks that aren't whored out to ICANN.

And so it has begun

[nurb432]

Sigh.

Freedom -1. Government +10.

Re:And so it has begun

[thijsh]

Freedom -1, People -1, Government -1, Corporations +10, Rich +$$$

How many people still have faith in the government? They are also losing because of this kind of shenanigans...

Re:And so it has begun

[Sowelu]

Well the thing is, if you add up the numbers, it's clearly a win all around! Just alternate back and forth for a while and everyone ends up with more points...

Call In This Suspicious Activity

[anguirus.x]

Report Suspicious Activity To report suspicious activity, call ICE toll-free at 1-866-DHS-2ICE. I find it very suspicious that someone is using ICE logos and seals for something that concerns them not at all. If someone is illegally making use of their seals I think they want to know about it. We ought all to call in and report this suspicious activity.

Re:Call In This Suspicious Activity

[anguirus.x]

I've also called in to ICE through their media inquiries channel. I hope to gain some more information regarding the scope of their operating here and their motivations for doing so.

Re:Hoax?

[rickb928]

The WHOIS I see:

Domain Name: TORRENT-FINDER.COM
      Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
      Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
      Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com/
      Name Server: NS1.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM
      Name Server: NS2.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM

Go look up SEIZEDSERVERS.COM. The owner has contracts with DHS.

Well, how's W looking to you now?

Re:Warning would be nice.

[Andrewkov]

Dude, all web servers log all visitors IP addresses by default.

EXIF Info

[bruns]

Out of curiosity, has anyone bothered to look at the EXIF information in the big image that was posted?

Camera Software: Adobe Photoshop CS5 Macintosh
Image Created: 2010:11:18 09:37:21

Xmp m m history:
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Re:EXIF Info

[bruns]

Also, if you check the HTML code, you'll see references to 74.81.170.107, specifically https://74.81.170.107/xxxxxx. Take a peek at the security certificate it hands out (expired in 2006).

It seems to try and use piwik AND google analytics to track visits. It just seems _really_ shoddy and i'm leaning more towards this as a publicity stunt perhaps.

I wouldn't trust GoDaddy either - they will lie to save their own asses and bottom line.

Re:EXIF Info

[bruns]

I'm not sure, hence why I left it up to people here to see if they notice anything out of the ordinary, or if they can connect the info to something else.

Someone who is familiar with Photoshop, is the uuid: value truly unique to the Photoshop install?

Re:EXIF Info

[metrometro]

Not a lot of Macs at the federal government. And none of them running the latest version of Photoshop. A torrent search engine, on the other hand, may somehow have access to the latest software.

Re:EXIF Info

[Culture20]

It was created on the 10th and edited until the 18th. Don't know of the use, but it might mean something in a timeline.

Re:EXIF Info

[SeaFox]

Not a lot of Macs at the federal government.

Really?

Re:EXIF Info

[niftymitch]

And if I look at the image I see odd stuff:

# strings foo.jpg | grep -i Copy

I see "Copyright (c) 1998 Hewlett-Packard Company" I wonder what it is that HP has a Copyright on here.

The best government money can buy

[AarghVark]

It is becoming increasingly obvious we have the best government money can buy.
For example look at the healthcare bill. In that case the lobbyists got a bill passed which was not written by any legislator, and was so lengthy that nobody had time to read it all before passing it.
Heck, nearly a year after the fact most of the legislators who voted on it couldn't tell you everything in it.

Add onto this is the added fact that corporations can make any contributions that they like. You see complicity in this by the company shareholders because there is a return on investment. More clearly put is that the dollars they invest in buying a Senator or Congressman translates into real-world gains for the company.
What we will see coming is a perfectly legal financially driven swatting. Instead of a lone hacker sending a swat-team to someones house, you will instead see a lone company buying the political influence to outlaw any behaviour they find undesireable (IE contrary to their business model) and the swat team will then show itself the way where they want it to go.
The best part is, for the companies involved it is far cheaper than hiring their own private thugs to do their dirty work and all perfectly legal under todays laws.

Same here ^^

[BLKMGK]

Registrant:
      Torrent Finder
      15 Alexandria St.
      N/A
      Alexandria, 55555
      Egypt

      Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
      Domain Name: TORRENT-FINDER.COM
            Created on: 30-Dec-05
            Expires on: 30-Dec-11
            Last Updated on: 04-Oct-10

      Administrative Contact:
            Gadelkareem, Waleed kurtubba@gmail.com
            Torrent Finder
            N/A
            N/A
            Alexandria, 55555
            Egypt
            20121578967 Fax -- 2034411838

      Technical Contact:
            Gadelkareem, Waleed kurtubba@gmail.com
            Torrent Finder
            N/A
            N/A
            Alexandria, 55555
            Egypt
            20121578967 Fax -- 2034411838

      Domain servers in listed order:
            NS51.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
            NS52.DOMAINCONTROL.COM

But Americans *SUPPORT* things like this

[wygit]

Back in September, I used the EFF's Action Center to send a letter to my senators expressing my concerns about COICA and and how much I was against it, (OK, I know it's a futile gesture, but it's something...)
and, about a month later I got this in reply.

"
Thank you for writing to express your support for the "Combating Online Infringement and Counterfeits Act." I appreciate knowing of your support for this legislation.

America's copyright system is one of our most important economic engines, and giving artists and inventors the incentive to produce cutting edge works is vital to our country. The protection of intellectual property is particularly important to California, which is home to thriving film, music, and high-technology industries. I have worked in the Senate to curtail the theft of copyrighted works, and I believe copyright owners should be able to prevent their works from being illegally duplicated.

On September 20, 2010, Senator Patrick Leahy (D-VT) introduced the "Combating Online Infringement and Counterfeits Act" (S. 3804). You may be pleased to know that I am an original cosponsor of this bill. This legislation would help address the growing problem of online piracy and copyright infringement by allowing the U.S. Department of Justice to shut down websites selling pirated materials. The bill is currently awaiting action in the Senate Judiciary Committee, of which I am a member.

Throughout my career, I have consistently supported strong intellectual property protection. I was an original cosponsor of the Enforcement of Intellectual Property Rights Act, which was signed into law by President George W. Bush on October 13, 2008. This bill strengthened existing civil and criminal intellectual property laws, increased the resources available to federal and local law enforcement agencies to combat the theft of intellectual property, and created the Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator (IPEC). The IPEC serves in the Executive Office of the President and chairs an inter-agency committee to produce and implement a joint strategic plan to enforce intellectual property laws.

Again, thank you for taking the time to share your concerns with me. Should you have additional questions or concerns, please feel free to contact my staff in Washington, D.C. at (202) 224-3841.
"

So I guess, according to her, I'm one of the majority of Americans who support the bill...

Re:But Americans *SUPPORT* things like this

[Kazymyr]

Apparently reading comprehension isn't a prerequisite for holding a senator's office.

Re:But Americans *SUPPORT* things like this

[SuricouRaven]

I doubt any senator actually reads their email. They must get so much of it, why would they waste their time listening to the people? It's not like most of them will be contributing a significent amount to the campaign.

Re:But Americans *SUPPORT* things like this

[marvinglenn]

Since you didn't explicitly state this, and for anyone else reading this and curious about it, the clueless senator in this exchange is Dianne Feinstein (D-CA). (As suggested by the phone number included.)

ICE?

[Gryle]

Can someone explain to me why Immigration and Customs Enforcement has jurisdiction here? I thought counterfeit goods and online pirating fell into FBI jurisdiction.

Re:ICE?

[SuricouRaven]

The FBI has jurisdiction only within the US. I'm guessing the site is hosted outside of the US, yet aiding in the transmission of infringing data into the US - which can be justified as a customs matter with a bit more ease than trying to justify the FBI taking action overseas.

Re:ICE?

[dkuntz]

Can someone explain to me why Immigration and Customs Enforcement has jurisdiction here? I thought counterfeit goods and online pirating fell into FBI jurisdiction.

ICE has a department called Cybercrimes.
ICE handles more than Immigration, hence the Customs part... bringing in stuff from overseas, including electronic data, falls under Customs enforcement. I know this from having to deal with a subpoena and warrant from ICE a few years back, all run through our lawyers, while in the hosting business. Of course, I dont think I can go into specifics, though it did have to do with something similar to this, with iframes, etc.

But I think it has a lot to do with which agency finds it first nowadays

Re:ICE?

[mrxak]

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which is part of Homeland Security.

Re:the US government is a disgrace

[Sepodati]

Your logic is a fucking disgrace. You think that because this action was taken, all other actions were forsaken? You're about as bad as the fucking idiots that say because this action was taken, HOW LONG UNTIL THEY COME TAKE ME AWAY FOR MY THOUGHTS? You are a fucking anonymous idiot.

Complain about copyright law itself, how infringement isn't theft, how helping infringe is not equivalent to infringement or things like that and we can have a good discussion towards a useful goal. Otherwise, GFY.

Re:Hoax?

[iambarry]

Domain Name: SEIZEDSERVERS.COM
            Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
            Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
            Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com/
            Name Server: NS1.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM
            Name Server: NS2.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM
            Status: clientTransferProhibited
            Updated Date: 24-nov-2010
            Creation Date: 24-nov-2010
            Expiration Date: 24-nov-2011

Interesting. SEIZEDSERVERS.COM was registered two days ago. Its a hoax.

The Deep End of the Swamp

[b4upoo]

It is rather like being cheap. There is no limit to how cheap a man can get. Once the mind is on the wrong path that path can lead to infinity. So we have all of these nonsense copyright laws and traditions that have become a plague. Now our government can apply all kinds of tactics while claiming nonsense causes. For example how easy is it to call downloading files economic terrorism? And seizing a business or an org. simply becomes seizing a criminal enterprise.
                Think about the end game with this nonsense. We catch a hacker who is broadcasting files all over the net and as our reward we get to put the guy in prison and spend 30K a year of our money as well as a fortune for his trial. Then after we get done abusing our wallets we can go into the streets and proclaim how we certainly won that effort. Taken to its edges think about crime gangs that gun down other gangsters. We can catch a car full of thugs and slap them away for the rest of their lives for millions upon millions of dollars. On the other hand when thugs gun down other thugs we could pat them on the back and make sure they have enough ammo to bag more thugs. That way we might actually win the game.

Uhhhh no...

[phorm]

And when the server gets bushwhacked instead of the domain, and they move to a new host - but you're still getting the old IP from your hosts file - then what? How about if - rather than an FBI warning or whatever - the site is replaced by a clone that sniffs your info or installs trojans?

Re:Uhhhh no...

[badkarmadayaccount]

Better idea - alt DNS root, with certs.

only if seizedservers.com is a hoax.

[lkcl]

      Domain Name: TORRENT-FINDER.COM
      Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
      Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
      Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com/
      Name Server: NS1.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM
      Name Server: NS2.SEIZEDSERVERS.COM
      Status: clientDeleteProhibited
      Status: clientRenewProhibited
      Status: clientTransferProhibited
      Status: serverDeleteProhibited
      Status: serverTransferProhibited
      Status: serverUpdateProhibited
      Updated Date: 24-nov-2010
      Creation Date: 30-dec-2005
      Expiration Date: 30-dec-2011

www.onsmash.com showing same seized graphic

[bangzilla]

www.onsmash.com

Re:Hoax?

[SuricouRaven]

Possible, but look at all the other sites siezed and pointed to the same graphic. It may be a hoax, but if so, it's a quite elaborate one.

GOOD

[X86Daddy]

Now is the time to remember the old phrase, "The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it." More actions like this are needed. The UK is going hog wild with such domain seizure activity too right now. This is absolutely great. All they need to do is hit something that will piss off Average Joe. Much like the TSA wanting to grab on our genitals and/or get nude film of us, at some point soon, there is a tipping point where a large number of people get pissed.

In the physical world, where things like air travel require resources and government cooperation, pushing back on the TSA is nigh impossible, and progress will be slow if at all.

In the realm of the Internet, new technologies take off like wildfire after *one* clever person spends a few days or weeks coding up an innovation and throwing it out there to be used and improved. What these government actions will cause is a distributed, unkillable replacement for DNS... one that cures government interference, along with corporate money-based abuses (like stealing $company-sucks.com domains).

Good job, you police-state corporate lackeys! You are stimulating progress in ways you cannot comprehend. :-)

Re:GOOD

[Sowelu]

Well, good luck routing around damage where your connection first reaches your ISP. If they go that far, you can't route around anything anymore, no matter what new DNS toys you have.

Re:GOOD

[cpghost]

What these government actions will cause is a distributed, unkillable replacement for DNS...

We already have that! There's no need to replace DNS per se, just switch to an alternate root, with servers maintained outside the sphere of the US-Copyright cartel. The ONLY power that ICANN has, is consensus among all Internet users: everyone and their dog are ultimately using their root servers. Just switch to an alternate root, and ICANN + US-Government are suddenly out of the loop.

Re:GOOD

[cpghost]

If your ISP blocks DNS queries or redirects (hijacks) them to their own servers, it could be pretty trivial to punch through their defenses with a trivial DNS-over-HTTP proxy. Who said alternate roots MUST provide DNS over port 53/udp only? They could provide an HTTP (port 80) service as well, for those behind firewalls.

ditto

[unity100]

it should be done asap.

how is the above troll.

[unity100]

it has come down to seizing top level domain names, supposedly governed by an INTERNATIONAL corporation that is supposed to be INTERNATIONAL.

REGARDLESS of the excuse, they are de facto CENSORING the internet. ENTIRE internet.

one has to be a witless moron, to realize that, this thing hasnt hit rock bottom yet.

Dunno how he missed the notice. 'Twas right there!

[Sloppy]

The notice was on display: in an unlit cellar (with no stairs leading to it), in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard."

GoDaddy and Wild West Domains are sister companie

[KingRatMass]

Their main corporate offices actually occupy suites in the same building... GoDaddy is disguising the fact that they are profiting from acting in cooperation with DHS by shifting the seized domain registrations to their "sister company" located a couple doors down the way from their own offices.

Morons.

[unity100]

well done. what have you done ? NOTHING.

it wont take half a day until the backups of those sites are restored in european, russian or chinese domains, in those countries' hosting outlets, and tracking just like how they did before.

you morons not only cost u.s. the control of internet, and made ICANN come out like a lapdog of american government, instead of an INTERNATIONAL corporation you were pretending it to be, but also cost innumerable small and medium size web hosting and datacenter businesses their customers.

not to mention the effect when that sector shrinks it will affect a lot of jobs, ranging from network administration, to tech support, web development to web design.

morons.

Re:Morons.

[unity100]

yes im aware of that. what im trying to do is that, make those people aware of it, themselves.

Re:Morons.

[krygny]

This is just step 1.

Step 2 is blocking foreign (and domestic) IP addresses they arbitrarily deem related to illegal or threatening activities. They got the idea from China.

We're not immune in the UK either...

[M4n]

Police seek domain closure powers - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11845961

This Is Not A Hoax

[anguirus.x]

I have received an on-the-record statement from Cori W. Bassett, Spokeswoman, ICE Office of Public Affairs, Dept. of Homeland Security: “ICE office of Homeland Security Investigations executed court ordered seizure warrants against a number of domain names. As this is an ongoing investigation, there are no additional details available at this time.” This statement was given in response to an inquiry I made to ICE's Public Relations Office asking whether these claims of ICE takedowns were true.

Re:This Is Not A Hoax

[memyselfandeye]

Oddly, that same quote is found here yet there is nothing of the sort on the DHS or ICE website. In fact this story didn't even make the ICE top 5. Source code has Google Analytics and Piwik scripts, something you'd think the FEDs would want to avoid in the case of a trial, seeing as how standard Google TOS claims all rights to the data. What would happen if one these guys went to trail, and you find out 33 children of powerful senators and congressman visited the site via a Google subpoena. Sticky sticky situation. You can even visit the Piwik management portal here, though only if your browser lets you trust unsigned certs... kind of sloppy if you ask me, and not at all like the often well executed ICE programs used to nab BILLIONS in real, tangible, counterfeit goods at our ports. These normal actions are real, as in actions against things actually sold and money actually changing hands. Those things are easy to bring criminal charges against and win. It's very difficult to bring criminal charges against intangible thefts, hence most IP theft takes place in civil court. You don't hear about a lot of DAs making headlines nabbing gangsta torrent pirates outside of Sweden.

Why the Goofy seizure notice with the goofy DHS Special agent badge that lacks a badge number yet is placed in a manner made to represent that specific agent in charge? In all my years I've never seen anything this flashy, and I've got a stack of notices from all kinds of federal and state departments for screwing up some minor thing on nearly every tax or compliance law you can imagine. Federal legal notices are usually quite plain form letters to comply with numerous legal statutes. This is designed to look like the FBI notices on videos, almost as if someone wanted to mislead a large group one way or the other. Besides, why would there even be a legal notice on the site?

Finally, when Operation In Our Sites was launched back in June there was plenty of notice, and plenty of pew-pew over physically taken assets, and seized bank accounts... which is what Title 18 is all about.

Re:This Is Not A Hoax

[makomk]

Oddly, that same quote is found here [nytimes.com] yet there is nothing of the sort on the DHS or ICE website.

Which would tend to suggest it's accurate and genuinely came from the ICE.

ICE?

[EricX2]

What the hell is ICE?

Soon the internet will do Secession...

[Yvanhoe]

...if this is confirmed and continues to happen frequently, I don't think it will be long before we see alternative DNS services appearing.

Re:Soon the internet will do Secession...

[cpghost]

...if this is confirmed and continues to happen frequently, I don't think it will be long before we see alternative DNS services appearing.

Aren't alt roots exactly that? I'm sure that with increasing meddling of Governments in the public (ICANN-based) DNS, those alt roots will get increasingly popular... and rightly so, despite RFC 2826.

Re:Soon the internet will do Secession...

[Joe U]

Here's my notice of intent to replace RFC 2826.

Anyone want to help?

Due process....?

[niftymitch]

What ever happened to due process?

Word from Torrent Finder Owner

[gadelkareem]

I am the owner of Torrent Finder website.. I will try to update this page. currently the site is operating at www.torrent-finder.info

Re:Word from Torrent Finder Owner

[Aussiewebmaster]

ok mate - no discussion only a link to your site now up on the .info domain.... not caring we think this is a hoax?????

terrorism?

[seekertom]

Wikipedia says 'terrorism' is defined by violence. Yet the 'threat' of terrorism has a similar, if not identical, effect on those aware of, but not directly involved with the violence. For example, raising the national threat level to maximum would certainly upset many or most of us, even without the existence of actual violence. So in practice, violence is not entirely necessary to disrupt a society. Maybe we need to re-define 'terrorism'??? Look how many /.'ers are 'upset' by this post... is this the tip of the cyber-terrorism iceberg? Another thought is this... what if an act of violence is perpetrated against a city, say New York. This act could be construed as 'terrorism'. But would it be only terrorism to those directly involved in the city, or would the folks in L.A. also be under the influence of 'terrorism'? My point being that the effects of terrorism are felt by those not directly involved with the violence, so maybe terrorism ought to be re-defined to include any non-violent action that has the same effect on a society as a violent action.

Internet need no central control

[kentsin]

DNS should be resolved in local not in central.

I love to call it nice and my friends will too. If you want to sent out a url, please give a ip as well. Thank you.