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A Lost Civilization Beneath the Persian Gulf?
Phoghat sends news of a new theory that a once-fertile landmass beneath the Persian Gulf may have supported some of the earliest humans outside of Africa. "Perhaps it is no coincidence that the founding of such remarkably well developed communities along the shoreline corresponds with the flooding of the Persian Gulf basin around 8,000 years ago... These new colonists may have come from the heart of the Gulf, displaced by rising water levels that plunged the once fertile landscape beneath the waters of the Indian Ocean."
and we will thrive... and we will call it... "this land"
It's the lost city of... ATLANTA!
So is this the origin of the flood myth? It seems more plausible than the south-east indian origin. I see it as a middle-point between Egypt's myth of Atlantis and the Sumerian flood tale as told in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
In soviet russia the government regulates the companies.
Let's drill for oil there!
It was a work of fiction by HP Lovecraft called "The Nameless City"
Cool story - a lot of his stuff can be found fulltext on the internet, but here's the Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nameless_City
The timescale given doesn't really fit in with any sort of creationist timeline and the Methodist church advocates evolution.
That the Persian Gulf was once smaller and dry where it is now wet is not in dispute, as far as I know.
There was not a single female ("Eve") alive at that time, there were at least thousands of females, and those females were all reproducing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
This image explains it pretty well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MatrilinealAncestor.PNG
-Bill
It's been awhile since class, but if I recall the original PIE speakers were from Eastern Europe near the Caspian Sea (assuming you agree with the Kurgan theory). Which of course isn't to say that these didn't speak some sort of early or proto-PIE with their descendants ultimately speaking PIE.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
Well, all the Y chromosomes trace back to a single male, too. The only problem for the Adam-Eve myth is that they lived 150,000 years apart, so likely they were not married.
Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
Does this mean that we'll have radicals from major religions rowing around the indian ocean in dinghies, firing mortars at eachother while screaming "GET OFF MY HOLY WATER, INFIDEL!"
?
'Cuz its honestly not a bad idea.
of Atlanta!
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
Here's a link to the abstract just to nip all this 3rd and 4th hand speculation about flood myths and Atlantis: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/657397
It's great for bringing public attention but not so great for highlighting the actual science behind the pop sci article.
the original PIE speakers were from Eastern Europe near the Caspian Sea
I've heard of Klipsche, Mission, and PSB, but you must be talking about some kind of hardcore audiophile gear there.
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
So is this the origin of the flood myth?
The folks who once lived in what is now the Black Sea would probably want to share the credit for that one. They seem to have had a similar flood event.
FWIW some geologists who compared the old testament to satellite images found some evidence suggesting that the rivers identifying the location of eden are consistent with rivers (current and ancient) converging on a location now in the Persian Gulf.
There were crocodile people under the Mediterranean sea in "Ilium" by Dan Simmons. His books are usually based on several classical works at once (Hyperion was based on the Canterbury tales) so it's likely he got this theme from a much older work: http://www.amazon.com/Ilium-Dan-Simmons/dp/0380817926
Hey, whatever keeps them from immigrating to the civilized world, I'm all for it!
Well, all the Y chromosomes trace back to a single male, too. The only problem for the Adam-Eve myth is that they lived 150,000 years apart, so likely they were not married.
That is actually not a problem. According to the Bible, everyone alive today is descended from Noah. According to the Biblical flood story, all male genetic material would come from Noah, but not all female genetic material would come from his wife. According to the Biblical account, Noah survived the flood along with his sons and their wives. Noah's sons were married before the flood. So, according to the Biblical account, while the most recent common source of all female human genetic material is Eve, the most recent common source of male human genetic material is more recent.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
You cannot prove a "father of us all" through DNA because of the nature of the male chromosomes
Actually, you can, via Y chromosome. And it is far more recent than the mitochondrial Eve (~60,000 years instead of ~300,000 years).
So is this the origin of the flood myth?
Or another attempt at lending credence to the myth, by people of a faith where it's central?
It is unscientific to dismiss a theory because it lends credence to religious beliefs. Do you realize that the current cosmological theory for the origin of the universe, the "big bang" theory, was initially dismissed by the "leading scientists" of the day because (1) it was developed by a roman catholic priest and (2) it seemed too close to the "creation myth of genesis". The term "big bang" was coined by these "leading scientists" to mock the theory.
Secondly, many myths and legends have a bit of truth behind them. Sometimes based on a multigenerational telling of historical events and sometimes as an attempt to explain things beyond a culture's scientific understanding. A real scientist tries to interpret myths and legends, not ignore or dismiss them.
Is this place which was flooded where the Indo-European language roots come from?
No. There are too many cold weather/northern animal words shared across IE languages. The north Caspian Sea area is the most likely, though there are other possibilities. Any area as far south as the Persian Gulf though is highly unlikely based on weather/animal words shared across IE languages.
Though it may be where Proto-Semitic language roots come from (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, Syriac, Assryian, etc.), but there is extensive debate on that as well (whether Afroasiatic languages like the Semitic family formed in Africa and moved north, or the Middle East and moved south).
Also, Helen didn't sink any ships. The phrase is 'launched a thousand ships.'
No matter how you try to spin it, the mitochondrial DNA of modern humans trace back to "ONE" female.
To say we all descend from ONE woman does not mean she was the ONLY woman on earth at the time.
Look at it this way: all my brothers, sisters, and cousins descend from my grandmother. But we have TWO grandmothers. Capisce?
Except that it's hard to reconcile the story with the fact that Noah and the "Eve" figure lived over a hundred thousand years apart.
The Noah story is a myth. The Flood story is a myth. The Adam and Eve story is a myth. It's pointless to try to force fit science to myth, or myth to science.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I could draw a cartoon and call it proof too, it doesn't mean that it's accurate.
It's not the drawing, but the logic behind it.
Evolution is all about the survival of the fittest (i.e. the best adapter). If Eve's descendants had even a minute advantage, that would in not too many generations make it more likely than not that everyone were descended from Eve.
That doesn't mean that mitochondrial Eve was the only woman who had children, nor that we aren't descended from her contemporary females along any of the billions of lines with paternal elements.
The picture makes sense because it makes sense, not because someone drew it.
I'm sorry, but the picture the Abrahamic religions draw of Eve doesn't make that sense, and requires faith instead of logic.
I'm afraid you misunderstand what 'mitochondrial Eve' entails.
It simply means that all living humans have some mitochondrial DNA in common, which they all inherited from a single female ancestor.
It does not mean there was only one female ancestor.
That common ancestor lived at the same time with other females (and males), some of which passed on their mitochondrial DNA to people living today, just not to all of them.
>Until I hear about a few geologists supporting this, I read this as Yet Another attempt at trying to legitimize the Abrahamic religion flood myth. That the man behind this was educated at the Southern Methodist University makes it, in my opinion, more likely that there's a bias here.
You realize you are engaging in the same bias practiced by those who dismissed the big bang theory because it was formulated by a roman catholic priest and seemed too close to the story of genesis? I am not vouching for this guy from SMU, just offering something for you to consider when you learn that a scientist has faith. Newton comes to mind too.
Also what is wrong with myth? They are sometimes a pre-literate pre-scientific civilization's attempt to pass along observations from one generation to the next. A real scientist would try to interpret the myth, not dismiss it.
Not quite. Mitochondrial Eve is a last common matrilineal ancestor, but that is NOT the same as saying that we are all descended from her, and her alone, in the way the biblical story goes, with the children of Eve interbreeding, and so on. What does mean is that if you trace any matrilineal line of descent, it goes back to her. If you trace a mixed line, it may (and some mixed lines definitely will) lead back to a different woman living at the same time.
That is pure bullcrap. The time scales increased because our understanding of various geological processes increased, not to mention our understanding of various decay rates. But the age of the Earth being pegged at about 4.5 billion years has been accepted for decades now.
But please, don't let the facts get in the way of your paranoid anti-science rantings.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Archaeologists study Geology intensely, and any team of size will include a Geologist.
Also Southern Methodist is a great place for archæology, home to Lewis Binford among others. The Methodist church isnt fundamentalist and doesnt have a problem with science.
So you were offbase on every point.
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The oldest languages around the Persian Gulf are not Semitic. The oldest language that can be attested are Sumerian and Elamite, which are both isolates, with know perceivable connection to any other spoken language. The Akkadians and other Semitic tribes were later invaders that seized Sumer, though they largely retained the Sumerian religion and the language as a sort of liturgical language (much like Latin was to become after the fall of Rome). No one can be quite certain where the Semitic languages arose, though the parent Afro-Asiatic family appears to come East Africa, and the Semitic languages may have arisen in the Arabian Peninsula.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
The oldest languages around the Persian Gulf are Semitic, so it's unlikely the forerunners of the Indo-Europeans lived in the hypothetical valley now sitting under the waves.
The Sumerians, the Hurrians and the Elamites want to have a word with you. (None of their languages were remotely Indo-European, but they weren't Semitic, either.)
Atlantis, by Orson Scott Card.
The gist is, Science(tm) has invented a machine that can view backwards in time, scientist finds society under the Red Sea. Cue up ancient barbarian, who leaves his crocodile worshiping village in a right of manhood, goes to the Indian Ocean, finds that the ancient floodwall is about to break in the monsoon, returns to his village warning everyone, builds a Super-boat, he and a small group survive while the city sinks beneath the waves. Amalgamation of Gilgamesh, Noah's Ark, and Atlantis all rolled into one mythos.
Not really. It would be fair to say that Atlantis is described as a utopia at first, but then declined.
I figure the opposite. If the guys on the space station say the water is still all up there in space, then the flood myth is wrong.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
BBC programs are much more sane, but we don't get them much on this side of the pond.
-- BMO
easy..... go download Expatshield and you can watch all the BBC, Channel 4 and brit programs you want :P
you are very welcome!
You're kidding right? The FSM is Cthulhu's public relations image. "Noodled appendages" is the non-scary way of saying "tentacles of death."
"There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
Cool, there will be a new $5 DLC for Civilization V.