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Recording the Police
Bruce Schneier says "I've written a lot on the 'War on Photography,' where normal people are harassed as potential terrorists for taking pictures of things in public. This article is different; it's about recording the police: Allison's predicament is an extreme example of a growing and disturbing trend. As citizens increase their scrutiny of law enforcement officials through technologies such as cell phones..."
Police deports your first post to siberia.
The arbitrary application of existing, irrelevant laws to cover actions which the powers that be find convenient to criminalize offers proof that the rule of law is dead, that people are afraid to speak and act against it, and that we now have rule by force. It will take conscientious effort by a large part of the population to peacefully reverse this disturbing trend.
.....in a public place." - SCOTUS. It applies to the cops as well. They have no reason to believe they should be unrecordable when they are out on the road or on the sidewalk. Besides: They record us all the time, with cameras installed in their cars and taping during confessions.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
The link is to a stub article with no real content on Bruce's blog that just points to the real article:
http://reason.com/archives/2010/12/07/the-war-on-cameras
Bruce has useful articles sometimes but it isn't any more legitimate for Bruce to use his blog as gateway page to real articles than anyone else trying to scam hits for content that isn't theirs.
Start here.
http://reason.com/archives/2010/12/21/how-to-record-the-cops
46 & 2
The Chicago artist Chris Drew was charged with a felony and faces 15 years imprisonment for making an audio recording of his own arrest:
http://www.c-drew.com/blog
http://www.wellesparkbulldog.com/news/chris-drew-granted-a-continuance-in-free-speech-trial
http://chilaborarts.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/why-is-it-a-felony-to-record-your-own-arrest-c-drew/
Had you RTFA, you would know Schneier's reasoning for making it legal to record the police, and you would consequently realize that those reasons would not apply to your counter-examples, thus rendering your rebuttal useless.
Prosecutors are able to get away with these bad faith prosecutions because of a doctrine called "prosecutorial immunity". We need a way to hold these prosecutors responsible for their actions, that will require the abolition of prosecutorial immunity.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
...this of harassment by the Detroit PD which is the reason why our gov't officials want to make videotaping of LEOs illegal.
Yet further evidence of our (as in US) slow slip into the grips of a police state.
I work with an ex police officer and he's pretty set against 'civilians' recording police, in his eyes its another way to get innocent police officers in trouble since a lot of the videos that have implicated officers in the past have lacked any context. This makes sense because a clip showing police brutality could be part of a longer incident where the suspect resisted arrest and tried to hurt the officer. I understand that in the heat of the moment a person who feels their life is in jeopardy may use force which seems excessive out of context. That being said, the same officer buddy is in favor of red light cameras, the nanny state, and airport scanners that see through your clothes. You can't have it both ways in a free and just society. You can't give the police the ability to watch everyone while denying the public the ability to watch the police. I think a better solution, that nobody in law enforcement would like, would be to put cameras on police officers and also allow the public to photograph them. That way in a court of law you have evidence that can provide context to any side videos in play. If the police officer is innocent he has nothing to fear from the surveillance, that's the line they have been feeding the public in general so it's fitting for it to fly back in their faces.
A recent Canadian survey shows that people, while they overwhelmingly still support the police, do not support them as much as they used to.
We have had several police abuses of power that came to light only because of video. The worst was the killing of a Polish man at Vancouver airport. Also we had the beating of innocent people during demonstrations at the recent G20 meeting in Toronto.
An officer has been charged in one of the G20 beatings because video made it possible to identify him.
The disturbing thing is that the police stood in solidarity with their brother officers in their own Mafia style code of silence. Only one officer could be found who was willing to identify those seen in the videos.
It won't take too many more incidents before the population turns on the police. They have had the benefit of the doubt until now. At some point that will end. The police, if they knew what is good for them, should embrace video as a tool for cleaning out the goons who should never be allowed to wear a badge.
So the government can illegally wiretap its citizens with no punishment. But a citizen can be arbitrarily thrown in jail for recording a cop? This sounds like a story that would come out of the former East Germany. Not the United States of America.
Its not the video recording that is the issue, it is the audio. There are states where you cannot record audio without both parties being aware of the recording. Believe it or not, this is done for your protection. Thus, if you are like the biker who got pulled over while using a helmet cam, my advice would be wearing a T-shirt that states by being in your presence you are agreeing to be audio recorded.
I believe the key to recording the Police is never to let Andy Summers solo for more than one measure. All the musicians went a little wild with the improvisations on the recent reunion tours and I think the songs suffered for the lack of restraint.
Breakfast served all day!
There is a related opinion piece on Salon.com right now:
The government's one-way mirror
You're not old until regret takes the place of your dreams.
In many States, citizens possess the power of initiative, where laws can be presented directly to the people.
A law that decriminalizes recording law enforcement officers acting within the scope of their duties or acting during their working hours (and immunizes the same conduct) is something, I suspect, that the general voting population would support.
If you care, get out there, conspire with others and ACT. I guarantee that you will be surprised at your results.
Look at what the no-tax freaks accomplished. It IS possible--don't let the naysayers with their weak arguments keep you down. Look at the crime victims' bill of rights that many states now have--those generally come from citizen activity!
There is almost zero downside to political activism of this sort in the US. You won't get killed (like you might in some other country) and you are likely to face negligible negative consequences. The worst that can likely happen is that you will fail. But think of all that you will learn in the process: Media manipulation . . . public speaking . . . organization . . . logistics . . .. That experience will make you more effective the next time . . .
And then you will be a politician, my son.
Now, get off my lawn!
And let's not kid ourselves; the reason you have cameras on store clerks is because store clerks steal. There's this stereotype that convenience stores are always getting robbed. Trust me, though, when I worked at a 7-Eleven as a kid, the camera wasn't pointed straight down at the register because that's where they thought I would be standing when I was robbed at gunpoint. The cameras are there for theft prevention, and nine times out of then the thief is an employee.
So if it's OK to use cameras to prevent store clerks from committing crimes (or document them), why is it not OK to use cameras to prevent police officers from committing crimes (or document them)? Not only do police officers sometimes commit pretty heinous crimes, including robbery and battery, but I would argue that just about any crime committed by a police officer is more serious than one committed by a store clerk, both because of the abuse of authority and the breakdown of societal values that inevitably occurs as a result.
Breakfast served all day!
Because of this, I will consider the police and prosecutors to be liars until proven otherwise.
If the cop had to shoot a guy because "he was resisting arrest", the cop better have an unaltered video of it happening because I will consider him to be a liar without it. You see all these type of cases in news where all the police cameras failed at the same time and it happens when the police used questionable force on a suspect.
It's one sided. Only they are allowed to video and as a result, they can control which video is available.
Until this horseshit of prosecuting citizens for recording of police ends, then as far as I'm concerned, the police are lying until proven otherwise.
Someone gets their ass kicked by the cops, well there better be video showing that it was necessary.
If the cops don't like it, then they can get another job. My local police are constantly turning applicants away so there's no problem replacing any cry baby cop who says "it's rough out there!".
But, but... According to Jim Pasco, executive director of the national Fraternal Order of Police, police misconduct is "so rare it might as well not exist."
LRN 2 SWM
In a sense, the police represent the public face of the law itself. If people are losing their confidence in the police, it is because they are beginning to lose their confidence in the law being just. Here in the United States, I would hardly think that is surprising, given our enormous prison population and tendency to criminalize harmless behavior that large portions of the population engage in. I cannot speak for Canada, but in the USA, we imprison so many people that only Nazi Germany and the USSR have us beat -- we actually imprison more people now than China, all convicted under our legal system.
The police do not want to be videotaped because after so many years of enforcing the sort of laws that created this situation, they know that there are people out there who want to discredit the police. The police know that their job is unpopular and they do not want the citizens to have the ability to make the police look bad. They know that they are not just going after bad people. They know that they are losing the support of the population, and that in many cases they are sent on patrol in areas where they have already lost that support.
Palm trees and 8
Getting more to the point, a police officer holds the special right to employ coercion (meaning physical force) against you (not in defense, but in offense). No private individual or organization holds that right, and thus a police officer is automatically more deserving of extreme scrutiny (not to mention how they're supposed to be working "for us" in the first place, supposedly not the other way around).
So if it's OK to use cameras to prevent store clerks from committing crimes (or document them), why is it not OK to use cameras to prevent police officers from committing crimes (or document them)?
Because the USA has become a police state.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
I would estimate the actual number at much higher than 9 out of 10. In my business (restaurant chain) I'm in charge of a approx 100 cameras at a couple dozen locations.
Company wide-
We fire at least 100-200 employees per year for theft.
We generally get burglarized a few times a year.
We've been robbed at gunpoint twice in the past decade.
Of the burglaries and robberies that I know of, at least half were inside jobs, with former or current employees to blame. So well over 99% of theft is internal, in my company. Camera positioning definitely reflects that.
It's not "the government" or even police who are trying to make you believe they are ethically superior. It's been an ongoing theme from the right-wing "law and order" crowd for decades. You hear it constantly from conservative media. You're constantly hearing about how they love law enforcement, how those who are accused of crimes are always guilty (of something) and how the police are "doing a very difficult job for very little pay".
You get the same stuff about the military. We always hear how the military are "the best and brightest", which really hasn't been my experience. The new convention is that whenever a caller says they're in the military, you'll hear "thank you for your service" and fawning praise for every knucklehead who walked into a recruitment office and signed up. It's because "they are protecting our freedoms" which is a load of crap. You don't "protect your freedom" by invading some shithole halfway around the world, you protect your freedom by...videotaping the po-lice for chrissake. They believe deference must be paid to the judgment of people who've put on a uniform, because I guess it makes them feel a little less like the soft, privileged lard-asses that they are. We heard this constantly from Republicans during the debate over the repeal of DADT: "We'll vote for it when the military leaders say we should vote for it" and how we have to protect our fighting men from...the licentious gay soldiers who will have nothing better to do in the middle of a firefight except stare at the butt of the guy in front of them. Wait, what? We have civilian oversight of the military, but the civilians charged with that oversight suddenly have nothing to say. Except when military leaders (chairman of the joint chiefs, secdef, etc) say "OK, we ought to repeal DADT, then the argument became "we should ask the enlisted men". When the enlisted men said "It's OK with us" the argument became "We should only ask the people who hate queers".
The whole idea of deferring to law enforcement or the military is anti-American. The Founders decided that we'd have a civilian-led military for very good reason. Because the judgment of someone who wants to pick up a gun and leave home to go out and fight bad guys just can't be trusted. The same thing with law enforcement. There are places in the world where the police are the absolute power in a community, but in this country, they work for the civilian government, not the other way around. And ultimately, the civilian government is us.
So it's our goddamn civic duty to keep on eye on law enforcement and the military. There's a good reason that most people don't want to become cops or soldiers, and the ones who do bear watching.
You are welcome on my lawn.
You do have to account for human emotions. If you expect the police to be perfect inhuman robots that never react emotionally, then you are an idiot. So if someone punches a cop in the face and the cop hauls off and punches them, that has to be considered.
That only works one way. If I react emotionally to a cop, I'm going to jail for a long time, and that's the best I can hope for. Nothing will be considered. Worst case, the thin blue line arranges for me to be beat either by cop or by inmates at the holding cell.
So why is it that you only cut slack to the cop, who is trained, armed, and paid to be professional, and not to the citizen, who is none of those things, and will not get the benefit of the doubt?
Nah too complicated, just have the Donuts Shop Owner turn over the surveillance tapes instead of Protection money.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
You hear it constantly from conservative media. You're constantly hearing about how they love law enforcement, how those who are accused of crimes are always guilty (of something) and how the police are "doing a very difficult job for very little pay". ... We always hear how the military are "the best and brightest", ... deference must be paid to the judgment of people who've put on a uniform, ...
What is especially curious is that this sort of praise for the police and military seems to come from the same people who keep telling us that the government can't ever do anything right. They don't seem to be aware that the police and military are pretty much all government employees, working from some of the biggest government bureaucracies that exist.
So which is it? Are government employeess always incompetent and untrustworthy? Or are the police and military above suspicion?
(My personal conjecture is that they're all just humans, with pretty much the same foibles and failings -- and successes -- as the rest of us. But what do I know? I do suspect that we might learn something about the truth if we monitor them and make their activities public knowedge. Maybe we could hire the wikileaks folks for that data-collection task? ;-)
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Well then clearly they have nothing to hide.
Undercover police are allowed to say they aren't cops. That's kind of the whole point.
Entrapment laws are to protect people from going to jail for something they wouldn't have done if they weren't asked to; not for something they wouldn't have done if they didn't think they could get away with it.
This is really apples and oranges. Surveillance on store employees is always OK, because the store is private property, so if the store owner wants to record stuff in his own property, that's his right. How anyone could make an argument against private surveillance inside a private business, I have no idea.
Police recording, however, generally concerns recording their activities in public spaces: on sidewalks, on streets, etc. There's two issues here: 1) in public spaces, how can there be any expectation of privacy? Some stupid States might have laws against photographing people in public, but such a law is stupid. If you're in public, you have no right to expect privacy. If you want privacy, go someplace private, not out on a street with hundreds of people surrounding you. Police officers in public shouldn't have any more expectation of privacy than anyone else standing on the street. 2) the police are government agents, and the government is supposed to be accountable to the People. If these uniformed government agents (who are not secret agents, unlike certain sectors of government that require secrecy) are in public, their actions should be allowed to be recorded by third parties, in order to maintain that accountability. If we lose accountability of the Police to the People, then we might as well give the Police brown shirts to wear.
I was looking for a place to put this, just to make sure somebody records it as "prior art". Every vehicle and potentially non-vehicle items, should be capable of transmitting fail-safe video uploads to a public server. That server should receive video which is made public at any instance where, after a pre-set time, if a password is not entered, the site will automatically make it public.
As an example, many if not most cars would have at least four cameras which constantly record audio and video which are constantly uploaded to a internet server. That video remains private so long as a password is entered at an appropriate time, but becomes public if it is not. Non-public video is available with the password for download for a specific period of time then deleted by the host. If you forget your password, or deliberately pick an invisible password, your video becomes public without any interaction on your part. Every dangerous driving episode you witness is potentially evidence against the perpetrator, but so is every interaction you have with anybody, police included.
Here's how I imagine a hypothetical routine traffic stop proceeding in one of two ways, Scenario One:
...(time passes)
...(time passes) ... and as shown by Ever Vigilant surveillance recordings presented by a stopped speeder, courtesy beco
Officer: License and registration please.
Driver: Here you are officer, and though it may be legal not to, as a courtesy, I would like to draw your attention to the "Ever Vigilant" stickers on my car. These stickers indicate the cameras which record all activity in the vicinity of my car. My interactions with law enforcement have always been good, and I expect this record to show the same.
Officer: This is not a public record and I'm giving you a lawful order to desist recording now.
Driver: I do not have the ability to cease recording and the legal rights to do so are defended by the "Ever Vigilant" corporation, but I will gladly comply with any lawful requests that I can. As you can see, I'm reading from the script provided on the sticker on my dashboard.
Officer: Thank you for making the situation clear. I am now ordering you to leave your vehicle and accompany me to my patrol car.
Driver: As advised by "Ever Vigilant" I will do so but must ask, is there a reason you cannot continue providing the public service you provide within the scope of the recording devices provided by "Ever Vigilant" equipment?
Officer: Leave your vehicle now.
Jury: We find the officer guilty of the following offenses...
Scenario two:
Officer: License and registration please.
Driver: Here you are officer, and though it may be legal not to, as a courtesy, I would like to draw your attention to the "Ever Vigilant" stickers on my car. These stickers indicate the cameras which record all activity in the vicinity of my car. My interactions with law enforcement have always been good, and I expect this record to show the same.
Officer: Thank you for saying so, but officers of Dallas County are trained to notice such things, and of course consent even if not legally required to recordings. Thank you for your license and registration, do you know why I pulled you over today?
Driver: You're welcome, but I don't know why you pulled me over.
Officer: Our radar equipment recorded you exceeding the speed limit, is there an emergency which would require you to exceed the speed limit today?
Driver: I wasn't aware that I was breaking any laws, but I hope that the "Ever Vigilant" software will show that I was following a reasonable application of the law. (You may note that I'm reading a sticker on my dashboad as recommended by "Ever Vigliant.")
Officer: I see that, please wait in your car.
(non-contest plea, video public, and don't laugh, I personally appreciate obvious courtesy and training even if guilty of an offense)
Commanding officer:
B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
"Case in point is all the dark horse instigators the left places at right-wing events with the sole intention of causing an "incident" that might reflect badly on the organizers."
I think you need a citation for that. I did a quick Googleing of your claim and came back with nothing. Even after trying to reword it in different ways in an attempt to get better results. So, I tried reversing it, and glaringly, the opposite understanding of what you're claiming seems to be the actual case.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/81376642.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/17/AR2008071701287.html
I thought about listing several of the ones I found, but it actually became overwhelming, These two are just more recent cases, sorry but I don't have time to go all the way into it, but from the looks of it, this has been going on for a really long time. You might want to revise your understanding after going over this. Here's some additional reading if you have time.
http://scholar.google.co.jp/scholar?q=police+agitators+infiltration+of+anti+war+protests&hl=ja&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
Maybe because organised crime could find a lot of uses for a database of the faces of police officers?
If organized crime cares, it can just buy copies of HR documents on each police officer. Or if the mafia has nothing better to do, they may send some kids to take photos of officers and then follow them home. Over time they will get everyone, and it's 100% legal.
Besides, police officers interact primarily with lawbreakers. They already show them their faces and their badges. A LEO in Las Vegas has no reason to be worried that some geek in China will see his face. That LEO better be worried that a local gangbanger saw him and followed him home. And you don't need a camera for that; binoculars would be far more effective.
Police objects to recording of their actions for only one reason: their actions can be used to hang them. Everyone makes mistakes. Raise your hand everyone who hasn't exceeded the posted speed even for one second on your way to work today. Won't be many hands raised, unless you all rode bicycles. Now imagine that the car automatically fines you each time when the number '65' changes to '66'. It wouldn't be worth going to work. In case of police, their errors (regardless of the reason) *also* can have them punished, fired or accused of a crime. Naturally they don't want this to happen. Neither do I or you, but we can't forbid others from seeing our misdeeds. Police can, currently, but that's wrong. If some officers say "we do dangerous work, with gun in hand, so if we shoot a family dog or a kid now and then we shouldn't be accountable." If they can't do their job safely and within the law they should quit; and if the whole police force quits then Wild West, here we come, for better or for worse.
How many of them get a lower wage because of the "tip"?
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
What is especially curious is that this sort of praise for the police and military seems to come from the same people who keep telling us that the government can't ever do anything right. They don't seem to be aware that the police and military are pretty much all government employees, working from some of the biggest government bureaucracies that exist.
I respect those who voluneteer for our armed forces, follow our duly elected civilian leaders, and protect our country. Even if that means they are deployed in cases which they may not agree with, or even are unjust/unwarranted. I respect them because it takes courage to volunteer for dangerous, low pay jobs in support of your country. I respect them even if I disagree with the politicians who sent them to war.
I consider myself conservative/libertarian, and despite my respect for the milatary, and in some capacities law enforcement, I absolutely believe that neither group is above the law.
1. There is absolutely no circumstance that comes to mind where it should be illegal for a civilian to record his/her own interaction with the police. If the police question/talk/harass/interrogate me, and I have the ability to record it, it should absolutely be protected 100%. If you are a member of law enforcement, you simply have no right to privacy with respect to the people you are interacting with. Furthermore, if you are properly enforcing the law, you have nothing to fear!
2. It should additionally be absolutely protected for third parties to record police interactions, as long as it occurs in a public forum -- streets, parks, building lobbies, open resturants, etc. A law enforcement official enforcing the law in a public forum has no expectation of privacy whatsoever, period.
Unfortunately, I see no long term path that can take us effectively towards this goal. Our best hope is a number of hard-fought battles in a federal court.
9 out of 10? Wow, is that a real statistic?
That's a statistic that I made up. At the particular 7-Eleven store I mention, the real figure was actually 10 out of 10. And if I want to rely strictly on my own experience, I'm not sure I'm aware of any cases in all my history of working retail where money was taken from a store where the culprit wasn't an employee. That includes cases where an employee and his friends staged a fake robbery for the cameras.
I'm talking cash money now. Merchandise? Sure. People steal merchandise all the time. But cameras don't usually catch people stealing merchandise. Cameras catch employees taking money from the till.
Maybe there's something to this thing about treating employees decently?
Quit jerking yourself off. My boss at this particular 7-Eleven was a great guy. I'm really sad that he's dead of cancer now. He was suffering from cancer the entire time I worked there, and I pulled many a double shift when some asshole failed to show up for work, because I sure as hell wasn't calling this poor guy up in the middle of the night to close the shop because my relief hadn't shown up. If he had any fault, I reckon it was hiring the wrong people -- because the clowns he put his faith in stole from him left and right. I tried to warn him, others tried to warn him, but if you're of a certain generation, I guess, you tend to trust people you shouldn't.
Breakfast served all day!
That's a load of horseshit. I was working at a 7-Eleven, yes. It was shitty hours for shitty pay. On the other hand, they respected me, a 17-year-old kid at the time; they gave me some responsibility and some work experience; and they paid me promptly every two weeks. Then again, it was shitty hours for shitty pay. But you know what? I'm not a fucking thief.
Breakfast served all day!