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Hackers Find New Way To Cheat On Wall Street

GMGruman writes "The high-speed trading exchanges that conduct the business of buying and selling stocks and mutual funds are so fast that hackers can introduce delays of a few microseconds completely unnoticed by today's network monitoring technology — and manipulate prices in the process to reap millions of dollars to the detriment of everyone else, InfoWorld's Bill Snyder reports. This kind of activity creates new reason to distrust Wall Street and shows how the computer networks we all rely on for conducting business and moving information are ripe for undetectable hacking."

271 comments

  1. Move to quantified data by omnichad · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Trades only take effect every 5 seconds. Wouldn't that stop this sort of abuse?

    1. Re:Move to quantified data by kevinmenzel · · Score: 5, Funny

      AGH! You'll ruin the foundation of capitalism! Down with your regulations, you dirty commie!

    2. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Don't confuse government regulations with other kinds of regulations. Even Wal-Mart has regulations requiring shirt and shoes. There's nothing wrong with voluntary regulations. It's only an issue when the government violently imposes them, usually in a piss-poor fashion though that's irrelevant. It's still rape even if the sex was good.

    3. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't confuse government regulations with other kinds of regulations. Even Wal-Mart has regulations requiring shirt and shoes. There's nothing wrong with voluntary regulations. It's only an issue when the government violently imposes them, usually in a piss-poor fashion though that's irrelevant. It's still rape even if the sex was good.

      Is it still theft if it occurred > 200 years ago?

    4. Re:Move to quantified data by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      That's just a different game. One that incidentally is already being played at start and end of session auctions.

    5. Re:Move to quantified data by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't confuse good government regulations with bad. No regulations are completely voluntary, if they were, we would not need to even mention them. No, the reason we have them is precisely because not everyone does the right thing voluntarily. All effective regulations come with consequences for breaking them. There is no fundamental difference between a law and a regulation. Breaking a law amounts to the initiation of force against the parties that enacted the law. Responding to a threat with force is not immoral. The idea that all government regulations are bad is simply an argument put forth by those who do not want to be held responsible for the consequences of their actions.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    6. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      AGH! You'll ruin the foundation of capitalism! Down with your regulations, you dirty commie!

      Oh noes, not the day traders! People who make lots of money while producing no useful product might get ripped off. Quick, somebody call the whaaambulance!

    7. Re:Move to quantified data by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Why not every 30? That should be enough time for a HUMAN to decide if they want to buy or sell something. It seems that this lightning fast trading works great and they're happy if they're making money. If something cascades into failure (like it did earlier last year, or was it '09?) then they just say 'oops, do over'. Imagine you were cashing out your 401k during the 'accidental' crash last year. One second stuff is at 1000, the next it's at 300. In the time it took for electrons to travel from your broker to the market.

      The worth of a company what a stock is supposed to buy you into, doesn't change even from minute to minute.

      I mean, they wouldn't make as much, but it'd be fair to the common person. (So it'll never happen).
      -
      OR, the other suggestion that I heard suggested would be to tax trades inversely proportional to how long they're held.
      1 minute: 90%
      1 hour: 80% .. .. .. ..
      20 years: 5%
      40 years: 1% (people that actually it as investment).

    8. Re:Move to quantified data by NevarMore · · Score: 1

      Oh noes, not the day traders! People who make lots of money while producing no useful product might get ripped off.

      Politicians watch out for their own.

    9. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      quantized you mean?

    10. Re:Move to quantified data by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      5 HOURS

    11. Re:Move to quantified data by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Why not make it every hour or even every day - that gives people time to think before each trade and means that you get better luck from algorithms that predict the long-term viability of a company, which biases investment towards companies that have a long-term future. Taxing based on the amount of time the stock is held for sounds great. I'd love to see very high tax rates for people who don't actually create anything.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    12. Re:Move to quantified data by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Yes. That's exactly what I meant. The temptation of a +anything first post was just too great for me to remember the right word.

    13. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But, but, the High Frequency Traders create volatility! ... whoops, bit of a freudian slip there... "liquidity"!

    14. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why the fuck have any regulations at all? I should be able to go 60 MPH in my neighborhood, and 140 on the freeway. If I kill someone, who cares? I won't go to jail. Their family could try to sue me but since there are no regulations specifying fault, I have nothing to fear.

    15. Re:Move to quantified data by letherial · · Score: 1

      Violently? I am rather sure that wallstreet does not have the national guard threatening them to follow the rules, however, i cant say its not a bad idea.

    16. Re:Move to quantified data by c0lo · · Score: 1

      AGH! You'll ruin the foundation of capitalism! Down with your regulations, you dirty commie!

      What??? What do I hear, "net neutrality regulations" would became suddenly capitalistic?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    17. Re:Move to quantified data by Surt · · Score: 1

      What do you suppose happens if they refuse to comply with federal regulations? No, it won't be the national guard, but if they resisted enough it would eventually be the US Army knocking down their doors.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    18. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you don't think "arbitrage" is something doesn't mean it's not.

      Besides, I can think of a simple counter example: I'm a regular Joe employee of company XYZ and I am granted options that
      vest a long time period in lieu of a higher salary. As I can't mail the options to the mortgage company I have to exercise them
      in order to actually realize that salary. If I want all that money, I'm taking a huge tax hit. If I want to exercise the options but don't have the capital to do so, I'm going to take a huge hit on my cashless exercise.

    19. Re:Move to quantified data by plopez · · Score: 1

      Nah. They'll just buy a few key politicians and get away scot free.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    20. Re:Move to quantified data by letherial · · Score: 1

      the supporting agency would fine them, if they didn't comply, then a lawsuit would be filed, it would go before a judge, the judge may say pay this amount, if they dont, the US government would have a court order to simply take it from there accounts. I dont see a gun getting involved anywhere in the process.

    21. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I heard an argument against this in the context of levelling the playing field between individuals and big firms. It basically said that long pauses between trading increases volatility and creates artificial spikes in demand.

    22. Re:Move to quantified data by Surt · · Score: 1

      That's the very definition of compliance with federal regulators.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    23. Re:Move to quantified data by letherial · · Score: 1

      and one more thing, its unconstitutional for the executive branch to order the military to go into a civilian USA city; the exception is bases, but that's federal property.

    24. Re:Move to quantified data by Surt · · Score: 1

      How would they enforce such a court order on accounts held overseas? Or money held in cash?

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    25. Re:Move to quantified data by Surt · · Score: 1

      And yet it has happened thousands of times in our history already, many with actual violence.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    26. Re:Move to quantified data by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      Don't confuse good government regulations with bad. No regulations are completely voluntary, if they were, we would not need to even mention them. No, the reason we have them is precisely because not everyone does the Same thing voluntarily. All effective regulations come with consequences for breaking them. There is no fundamental difference between a law and a regulation. Breaking a law amounts to the initiation of force against the parties that enacted the law. Responding to a threat with force is not immoral. The idea that all government regulations are bad is simply an argument put forth by those who do not want to be held responsible for the consequences of their actions.

      Let me fix that for you..

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    27. Re:Move to quantified data by Surt · · Score: 1

      Heck, in many cases we're talking about the big banks. They hold their own accounts. If they decided to not pay, there's not some other entity the government can ask to hand over the money.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    28. Re:Move to quantified data by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      No, it would make it much worse, as 5 seconds worth of arbitrage data is much more valuable than a few microseconds.

    29. Re:Move to quantified data by letherial · · Score: 1

      My point is, the government has never violently threatened the banks....sure individuals can become unruly and get charged with a crime, resist with violence and then violence will happen. But the government using violence to regulate? that's a far cry from enforcing laws in a peaceful way, and china type government shooting people when they fuck up. Despite what you think, USA army would never get involved.

    30. Re:Move to quantified data by arkenian · · Score: 1

      and one more thing, its unconstitutional for the executive branch to order the military to go into a civilian USA city; the exception is bases, but that's federal property.

      Note: Posse Comitatus applies only until the president determines that there is a state of insurrection occurring in that location. Refusal to obey the federal government is the definition of an insurrection ;) And you have to admit, turning out the army against wall street is unlikely to be a politically unpopular move ;)

    31. Re:Move to quantified data by Surt · · Score: 1

      The army is just the ultimate backing force for the threat. I can assure you they would be called in after the local FBI office was wiped out (as the FBI would get called in after the local police were wiped out). The fact that the army hasn't had to get involved since the civil war speaks to the success of our system. Yes, actual violence in regulation is rare (though, for example, Madoff was actually physically arrested). Obviously that's the point of having a civilized society, keep the actual violence to a minimum.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    32. Re:Move to quantified data by letherial · · Score: 1

      I suppose its the same thing as saying i the government is violently making me not speed And wait, the local law enforcement would get involved before the FBI, then the swat, then the state guard, then the national guard, and if all that fails we are probably at a civil war or a foreign invader. I am not sure if your referring to a enemy that is taking over say NY, or that a banker that is refusing to comply with the law. The exaggerations in your post is getting to big to follow

    33. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are at least two kinds of nonlinear solvers for dynamic systems - variable and fixed time step.

      Variable time step: If quantities in the system are changing quickly (a stiff system) the timestep size is reduced so the integrator gives the requested accuracy...if the data has a step change, the solution may bog down and nearly stop, as the time step approaches zero. Historical case of Wall Street--loudest bidder on the floor wins.

      Fixed time step: As you propose, data collected over a fixed interval, results available next interval. While it may not be perfectly accurate, it just keeps crunching along and the errors from stiff portions of the system are washed out. Nearly every real time process controller works this way.

    34. Re:Move to quantified data by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      Regulations? Yeah, that would have helped... (oh boy...)

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    35. Re:Move to quantified data by letherial · · Score: 1

      no insurrection is not refusal to obey federal government, that's simply a federal crime and depending on the law, is able to be argued in the third branch of government everyone seems to forget about. The real definition of insurrection: A violent uprising against an authority or government: "opposition to the new regime led to armed insurrection" So if a banker gets mad, arms a bunch of other bankers in order to take over wall street, that might get the army involved, though most likely just the national guard assuming the size or scope.

    36. Re:Move to quantified data by module0000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Imagine you were cashing out your 401k during the 'accidental' crash last year. One second stuff is at 1000, the next it's at 300.

      I could be mis-reading your comment...but if you are worried about Joe Average selling off his shares in stock FOO while they are at 1000 a share, and the trade executing moments later when it drops to 300 a share..that's impossible unless Joe Average is very foolish.

      When you execute any trade involving significant cash, you use limit orders to protect yourself against exactly that. If stock FOO is $5.50 a share and I want to sell 1000 shares, I place a limit order to sell at $5.50. This means if there is a bid for 7 shares at $5.55, $5.53 or anything $5.50 or greater I will sell at *that* price. But no shares will be sold below $5.50, that portion of my order will remain 'unfulfilled'.

      If I mis-read what you meant in your comment...my apologies ahead of time. Otherwise I hope that sheds some light on how trading happens between the orders being placed and the securities changing hands.

      --
      Trackball users will be first against the wall.
    37. Re:Move to quantified data by module0000 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Use your Roth account to trade with no capital gains taxes whatsoever - and you do have to hold it for amount of time.

      --
      Trackball users will be first against the wall.
    38. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One second stuff is at 1000, the next it's at 300. In the time it took for electrons to travel from your broker to the market.

      Your 30 second solution just makes things worse. If the market was going to tank, then it would be at 1000 one interval, and 30 seconds later it would be at 300 with no warning. Anyway this is a non-problem because you can just use limit orders. The 1987 crash was a good example, caused by portfolio insurance.

      Finally, just so you know, high frequency trading isn't the cause of flash crashes. Flash crashes are caused by volume traders, not high frequency. HFTs usually don't take positions in the market—they are total hedged so cannot cause crashes.

    39. Re:Move to quantified data by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "no insurrection is not refusal to obey federal government"

      No, it isn't. But refusal to obbey federal government to the last consequences *is* insurrection.

      "The real definition of insurrection: A violent uprising against an authority or government"

      QED.

    40. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In 2010, there was the 'Flash Crash' where equity prices lost 8% of their value in 4 minutes.

      Here is the audio/transcript from the trading floor during this 4 minute period -- http://www.ProTranscript.com/Flash_Crash

      Interesting stuff IMHO.

    41. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without regulations, the family may not sue you, but there would be nothing to stop the community from lynching you either. Self-regulation at its finest.

    42. Re:Move to quantified data by hsk17 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I've been an avid follower of /. for some time now. I've gained a lot of insight from reader responses, which are generally well thought-out, mature, and reasonable. On the topic of market microstructure, however, I feel /. falls woefully short. I cringe when I read comments that sound like something from Zero Hedge.

      I work in HFT. I make markets. Obviously, there is an incentive for me to talk about all the good things HFT brings to the world. However, I also believe that we serve a function in the market. Perhaps not vital, but still a service nonetheless.

      What do market makers add to the market? They're willing to stand on the other side of your trade. They serve a vital function to the market and we can trace them back to the specialist days on the floor. Let's all agree to start from there.

      What do HFTs add to the market? Now this is where you have a large divide in opinion, and rightly so. Some HFT firms will engage in predatory behavior that is unfortunate, including quote stuffing and price manipulation. I am not writing to absolve all the bad things that many HFT firms do. However, in my view, ideally, HFT market makers add these factors: immediacy and continuity.

      As an investor, you can go up to a trading terminal at any time in the day and someone (most likely an HFT firm) will be there to take the other side. That is immediacy. You also have access to price discovery that is happening every fraction of a second. That is continuity. These are ideal situations, and not every HFT adds these values. Firms that only remove liquidity are often not providing immediacy. Firms that manipulate prices are usually not providing continuity.

      If you think, "HFT's will run at the sign of chaos!" I agree with you. The better, smarter, and faster firms will continue to stay in the market, but only up to a certain point. Why should anyone stand in the way when a big institution sells 75,000 ES contracts? We trade and provide liquidity so long as it's profitable. If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with capitalism. How do you possibly incentivize participants to absorb tail-end risk?

      If you think, "But investors don't care about 30 microseconds!" I agree with you. The short reaction times are there so that we can manage risk. It indirectly adds value to the investor because it allows us to manage risk better, which allows us to provide really tight markets. Think about it. We're standing there for anyone in the world to trade against all the time. Adverse selection is the name of the game. Back in the specialist days, spreads were sometimes in dollars. Now they are in pennies, and in many liquid stocks, exactly a penny. I assure you -- if we ever move to a system that taxes each trade or throttles latencies, you will see spreads widen out immensely because it's harder to manage risk. If you impose a limit on the minimum life of a quote, you will see spreads widen because there's risk in standing in the middle of the highway for too long.

      If you think, "But company values don't change every 30 microseconds!" I agree with you again. It's the possibility that they could change that necessitates high reaction speeds. Company valuations are stable -- on average. But once in a while, some information is leaked that damages the company's reputation or some big institution decides to buy a ton, and you're left with a huge position that's going against you. Should we stand there and absorb that flow even when it's not profitable?

      The last point is probably the biggest factor in a gating system where trades only take effect every N seconds. You can only update your position every N seconds, so as a market maker, you're essentially putting out a lot more risk. Some firms will be smart about risk management and be able to provide tighter spreads and make money for themselves. Some firms will not and they will go out of business.

    43. Re:Move to quantified data by Dripdry · · Score: 1

      Um, mutual funds trade only once a day, at the close of the market. That's the majority of 401(k)s, with some self-managed brokerage accounts out there.

      --
      -
    44. Re:Move to quantified data by Dripdry · · Score: 1

      Oh, also, there's not much that went from 1000 to 300 in 30 seconds. A few stocks, but if you have all your retirement tied up in that then you are either an idiot or have a bad financial advisor

      --
      -
    45. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The foundation of capitalism is safe if the time step is set to 5.39*10^-44 s, in my humble opinion. I feel so dirty now.

    46. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just make the person executing the trade complete a captcha...

    47. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brilliant analysis! What's a HFT?

    48. Re:Move to quantified data by inthealpine · · Score: 1

      On the flip side you could have been buying at that point and got a great deal. Bet your glass would be half full then.

      --
      "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
    49. Re:Move to quantified data by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's interesting that the people most opposed to "government regulation" are typically strongly in favor of government regulation when it comes to recreational drugs or small businesses that might usurp their market.

      Practically everyone is (for good reason) in favor of government regulating violence and theft.

      The "all government regulations are bad" crowd, of course, wants violence to remain regulated so they won't have individuals holding them responsible for their actions either.

    50. Re:Move to quantified data by shentino · · Score: 1

      Someone's been playing GTA3 too much.

    51. Re:Move to quantified data by tokul · · Score: 1

      Imagine you were cashing out your 401k during the 'accidental' crash last year. One second stuff is at 1000, the next it's at 300. In the time it took for electrons to travel from your broker to the market.

      That's why people set price when they sell their stocks. Correct oops should be different. It is when you see current price at 300 and next second it is 1000.

    52. Re:Move to quantified data by zeropointburn · · Score: 1

      If half of all people pissed in the pool, would that make it ok? What percentage of financial advisors have to embezzle their customers' profits for it to become ok for all of them to do it? If it only matters to you that everyone does the same thing, then why not allow all US companies to dump their wastes straight into the water table? It would boost the economy (until endemic cancer and birth defects crippled it).

      --
      -1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
    53. Re:Move to quantified data by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      ...if they resisted enough it would eventually be the US Army knocking down their doors.

      but they would do it very courteously

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    54. Re:Move to quantified data by jbatista · · Score: 1

      I don't know enough about stock exchange (well, essentially nothing actually), so please correct me if I'm wrong. But people would be finding a way around "inversely proportional tax". For example, a company buys stocks and holds on to them indefinitely, and the clients to that company would just negociate with the company itself who would be holding onto the stocks, with the frequency of their choosing. I've not thought this through, but RIGHT NOW (I admit I might be wrong) it seems that this way you eliminate that taxation factor.

      --
      My sig is better than your sig.
    55. Re:Move to quantified data by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      Interesting take on my fixing of the article to read "same", as a regulation or law forces conformity. Ironic that you described practices in China, a communist state where conformity is law, present practicing the very action you espouse as evil. The dumping of industrial waste into the waterways, to such an extent that a freshwater species of Dolphin in now extinct.

      The point here is not everything should, or can be enforced, regulated or legislated. Our government was designed to act in a balance of the known political forces of the time.

      Having the Freedom to make mistakes for good or bad is what we are about. Stealing is never ok, and eventually people get pissed off enough to get off their arses and vote.

      Don't like what you see? Find a soapbox and start campaigning. Our county gives you that power. If you fail to exercise that power then sit down, and STFU.

      - Dan.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    56. Re:Move to quantified data by ppanon · · Score: 0

      Turn-based games basically got stomped by Real-time Strategy games ten years ago. Good luck trying to roll back the clock.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    57. Re:Move to quantified data by Marcika · · Score: 1

      Brilliant analysis! What's a HFT?

      High Frequency Trading.

    58. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that the prime Planck of your new political platform?

    59. Re:Move to quantified data by Marcika · · Score: 2

      The gating system also will not eliminate the arms race.

      A well-designed gating system would eliminate the arms race -- simply having a _blind_ auction every second (or every 5 seconds) without time priority, but with price-size priority instead would eliminate it. Working in a large trading outfit, I don't know anybody, whether sell-side or buy side, who takes conscious split second decisions on value. So any sub-second activity is either noise or computerized arbitrage - none of which will be missed if it only happens every second.

    60. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why the (ultra-fast) G-WAN server is getting so much attention at the moment.

    61. Re:Move to quantified data by carnivore302 · · Score: 1

      The worth of a company what a stock is supposed to buy you into, doesn't change even from minute to minute.

      That's bullshit. The value of a stock can change dramatically after some news is released. Every time someone buys a stock he thinks it is undervalued in some kind of way. Prohibiting people trading a stock because of time restrictions (which by definition are unequal to others) is downright criminal.

      And another kind of bullshit I read everywhere: nobody with a 401(k) account is getting slaughtered by the high frequency traders. If anything, those high frequency traders will give you a better deal because of lowered bid-ask spreads.

      --
      Please login to access my lawn
    62. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meanwhile millions of Americans are jobless and billions of people are dying from lack of food, clothing and basic shelter against natural forces.

    63. Re:Move to quantified data by Kjella · · Score: 1

      f stock FOO is $5.50 a share and I want to sell 1000 shares, I place a limit order to sell at $5.50. This means if there is a bid for 7 shares at $5.55, $5.53 or anything $5.50 or greater I will sell at *that* price. But no shares will be sold below $5.50, that portion of my order will remain 'unfulfilled'.

      You may sell. There's also variations of "fill or kill" orders that won't complete unless you can sell all 1000 shares above your limit.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    64. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Splitting trades in time slices would be better, delays in execution wouldn't avoid frontrunning.

    65. Re:Move to quantified data by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      It doesn't have to be regulations to do this. That's a false choice.

      If gov't regulations AND all gov't subsidies AND all gov't protections to people and to banks AND all gov't involvement into economy was completely removed from banking and investments, then there would have been PLENTY of choice for you to trade only with houses that do either manual transactions or set up self imposed rules.

      Today's trading houses are all automatic, the HFT has killed the market for retail customer.

      Nobody personally CAN compete with machines, running 1000-5000 discovery transactions a second, that's impossible. You can ride the coat-tails for a while if you are lucky, but you can't win.

      Today the banks and hedge funds are so heavily regulated, that no new ones can come into the market, and the existing ones are so entrenched and so much subsidized and are controlling the system from top down that you can't compete with them on anything, including the lobbying which sets the anti-competitive regulations.

      You can't compete with existing banks - that's a problem CREATED by the gov't. That's why the gov't even exists today - to ensure that nobody can compete with gov't subsidized monopolies.

      Get rid of gov't from all aspects of economy and stand back and watch how the real free market works, which would mean people would have to be actually responsible for their investments, for the choice of bank (if there is no FDIC, there is no moral hazard), for the choice of trading house.

      I imagine that immediately there would be competition in trading houses, where some of them would provide a choice to trade with only humans without machines.

    66. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So, what you're saying is that HFT's are offering benefits to other market players by

      a. shrinking bid-ask spreads.

      I fail to see how this benefits other players in the market. Your "price discovery" mechanism is to nickel-and-dime everyone else into accepting some "middle-ground" price, while providing no liquidity to the market at all. Yet, the bid-ask spread was there for a reason and that reason is information asymmetry between buyers and sellers. The higher the spread, the bigger the asymmetry, the higher the risk and thus the higher the potential reward. The spread is a valuable signal, it contains information.

      What you are doing is not providing "price discovery" but rather smoothing out market signals, i.e. destroying the information contained in bids and asks. In the process, you are ensuring that other traders stand zero chances of making any profit on their trades.

      b. offering fast trade.

      I suppose you claim this is a benefit because everyone wants to minimize risk and a trade that executes fast exposes the trader to less risk than one that takes hours to complete. However, you explicitly state that "If you think, "HFT's will run at the sign of chaos!" I agree with you." so your argument is moot. HFTs provide the appearance of low risk and high liquidity (there's that word again!) but do not offer the benefits (they will pull out of the market the very microsecond actual risk materializes, screwing the investors that foolishly relied on the existence of a liquid, automated market-maker).

        Why would an HFT pull out of a market or stock once it starts a violent movement? Is it not because the algorithms are essentially predicated on the prices doing a close approximation of a random walk? This is usually true when nothing much happens. However, once there is new information in the market (and it must be out-of-band stuff like news or quarterly reports because, again, the prices themselves mean nothing anymore thanks to you guys), everyone starts moving their prices in just one direction and HFTs have to pull out or be shredded under the weight of their own temporarily-mistaken assumptions.

    67. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you call up your broker and say "I want to close this account" and they interpreting that as "sell it all I don't care about the price" say "OK", then you get a check for much less than you expected.

      Lots of people have securities without understanding anything about how they work.

    68. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good comment but if you work for these people I still think you are a crook. Why not get a honest job. The company you work for is stealing us blind.

    69. Re:Move to quantified data by mldi · · Score: 1

      I would even extend that to every 5 minutes per trader. There's no reason entities need to be trading something every few milliseconds other than trying to manipulate the market. This is about investments. There used to be actual brains behind all this, not bullshit computer algorithms shoving everybody else around and causing massive destabilization in the market.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    70. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an investor, you can go up to a trading terminal at any time in the day and someone (most likely an HFT firm) will be there to take the other side. That is immediacy.
      From what I can tell you raise just two points to defend HFT the first being immediacy. This is just another way of saying you don't have to wait very long (microseconds) to get a *recent* quote. How does this add value? Even if trades were set to go off every 5 or 30 seconds as some have proposed, you will have access to the previous quote from 5 or 30 seconds ago. I don't see HFT adding any value there. Also, HFT doesn't have anything to do with whether someone is willing to take the other side of a trade, that depends on whether what you are offering or selling is reasonable. So even with low frequency you can get a quote at any time of the day, it is just (5 seconds or whatever) out of date. Big deal.

      You also have access to price discovery that is happening every fraction of a second. That is continuity. These are ideal situations, and not every HFT adds these values. Firms that only remove liquidity are often not providing immediacy. Firms that manipulate prices are usually not providing continuity.
      What is the value of having price discovery every 5 microseconds versus every 5 seconds? There are no systemic advantages, only disadvantages as low speed traders are taking advantage of. The real advantage is for the HFT to manipulate prices and trade which is why they are hated.

      Being as your job depends on not believing this, I don't expect you to agree, but there is a good reason why many people support the Tobin tax or regulation of HFT.

    71. Re:Move to quantified data by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I had to google to find out what that HFT is an acronym for High Frequency Trading.

    72. Re:Move to quantified data by spun · · Score: 1

      Everyone should do the same thing in certain circumstances. Everyone should refrain from murder, for instance.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    73. Re:Move to quantified data by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      It's still rape even if the sex was good.

      Your metaphor is bizarrely inappropriate, egregiously tasteless and amusingly inaccurate, so presumably you re in fact a secret anti-libertarian who's trying to subtly undermine the frantic free-market anti-government cheerleading standard on slashdot.

      Or maybe you're just thick.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    74. Re:Move to quantified data by m50d · · Score: 1
      You don't need that inverse proportion to make HFT unprofitable. You could just tax a small proportion of the share's value (even 0.1% would probably do it) on every transaction. Like stamp duty for buying/selling houses here in the UK.

      Of course, turns out that actually makes the market horrifically illiquid and makes prices worse for everyone.

      --
      I am trolling
    75. Re:Move to quantified data by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Trades only take effect every 5 seconds. Wouldn't that stop this sort of abuse?

      What if you tried to put in your order within the 5-second deadline but because of a delay on the network introduced by a DoS attack, you just missed it and your order had to wait for the next 5 second slot?

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    76. Re:Move to quantified data by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      ~*sweet!*~ I get to put a whole $5000 each year, and I only have to wait until my life is almost over to touch it! And things only have go right for another 30 years or so. That is SO FUCKING AWESOME!

      Say, know anyone who will let me split that across five mutual funds having $1000 each without having low-balance fees that defeat the whole purpose of it?

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    77. Re:Move to quantified data by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Then you're actually making investments, and not gaming the system. I don't really care if it puts an end to that.

    78. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I give your paper a C, because it's missing an entire section on the fact that program trading using arbitrage via millisecond windows can facilitate front running.

      "But company values don't change every 30 microseconds!" I agree with you again." You make it sound like program trading moves 2 or 3 shares at a time. You're being very disingenuous by not addressing the fact that this can also facilitate market manipulation (which then in turn can fuel more arbitrage-based HFT).

      Come back and address the Dirty Little Secrets and we'll try this again.

    79. Re:Move to quantified data by slashdotjunker · · Score: 2

      I'll just say this straight to your face. "Liquidity" is the lie you tell yourself so you can sleep at night. Sorry.

      I've seen your arguments a hundred times. It's always the same.

      Investors: Let's regulate HFT.
      HFT: We do this to help the investors.
      Investors: We hate you.

      Think about this. If you're really helping the investors, then why do they hate you so much?

      I don't think you're a bad person. I think you genuinely believe that you're helping. You just need to be a little more self critical and ask yourself, "Am I really helping? Are there metrics I can collect to measure how much I'm helping?" Does your firm produce an annual report detailing how much liquidity you generated that year? Do you have milestones, such as: 500 units of liquidity by February? Does your industry have magazines and industry watchers that talk about and evaluate how the various firms are doing in their competition to provide liquidity?

    80. Re:Move to quantified data by spun · · Score: 1

      That's because the modern American libertarian movement was founded and funded by billionaires like the Koch brother. They tell the think tanks what to focus on. The only issue of concern to them is lowering taxes and reducing government regulations on business. No other "libertarian" issues really matter to them, and so no other issues matter to the American libertarian movement they fund.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    81. Re:Move to quantified data by zeroshade · · Score: 1

      Nobody personally CAN compete with machines, running 1000-5000 discovery transactions a second, that's impossible.

      I imagine that immediately there would be competition in trading houses, where some of them would provide a choice to trade with only humans without machines.

      I do not believe you know how your supposed free market would work. If nobody can personally compete against machine run trading houses, then competition in a "Free market" with no government regulation would results in the human trading houses going out of business in favor of the automatic ones because they are more efficient and would thus get more customers because they are "better". Without regulation against anti-competitive behaviors and monopolies then the entire economy would devolve into a series of monopolies much worse than anything going on right now.

      Get rid of gov't from all aspects of economy and stand back and watch how the real free market works

      Would be the day business would jump for joy as they sat back and raped the consumers because unbridled unrestricted capitalism would lead to even more greedy and corrupt businesses, large unregulated monopolies, and ultimately would collapse the economy.

    82. Re:Move to quantified data by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      because they are more efficient

      - says who they are more efficient? They generate more money for the trading house, but they completely price out the retail trader.

      Obviously there is money in retail traders, so there would be plenty of choice for retail traders to do trades, but their houses would be retail oriented and would have to be manned by people rather than machines with self imposed rules.

      How exactly this would work out I do not know. That's the point of the market economy rather than centrally planned economy - market economy cannot be predicted fully because it is left to choices of individuals and centrally planned economy proposes no choices at all.

      Without regulation against anti-competitive behaviors and monopolies then the entire economy would devolve into a series of monopolies much worse than anything going on right now.

      - this sound extremely funny, when anybody says: OMG! Without gov't we'll have monopolies.

      Here is my response: ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDEDLY BLIND?

      There are monopolies right now, killing all competition, only relying on the fact that they are completely government backed! WTF is wrong with you? All banks and large investment firms, all energy firms, military and insurances and communications and food and education, and utilities it's all gov't granted monopolies TODAY! And you are afraid of some hypothetical monopolies that could happen if there was no gov't monopolies? Why do YOU like gov't monopolies so much? What did they do for you except rob you of your money?

      This is definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over (bringing the same gov't into power all the time, forget who was voted in, the same exact system is in gov't) and expecting some different results.

      Would be the day business would jump for joy as they sat back and raped the consumers because unbridled unrestricted capitalism would lead to even more greedy and corrupt businesses, large unregulated monopolies, and ultimately would collapse the economy.

      ? Ultimately collapse the economy? Which economy? Because you don't have an economy NOW to collapse, it's already collapsed, all with gov't intervention.

      What kind of cool aid are you on?

      The big businesses would JUMP FOR JOY? WHY?

      Big businesses are all benefiting from the gov't money. From gov't bail outs. From gov't subsidies. From gov't protection racket. From gov't contracts. From gov't regulations that price out any new competition (and make competition directly illegal in many cases).

      WHY would you think such a nonsensical thing at all if you were intelligent? Did you know that the Fed was set up by Rockefeller and JP Morgan, because they clearly understood something you do not? That the best way to have monopolies is to get free money from gov't, who must just be able to print it?

      I am out of words for stupidity displayed by so many people including yours.

    83. Re:Move to quantified data by JayWilmont · · Score: 3, Interesting

      First of all, thank you for taking the time to explain your position.

      What does it mean to "make markets"? Stock markets have been around for a hundred years without high frequency trading, and they worked just fine.

      Why do we need middlemen to quickly buy and sell stocks? They only are willing to do so if they can make money. So if I put out a sell order and want to sell my stocks for at least $5, and there is a HFT firm in the market that buys my stock for $5 one hundredth of a second later, then a few seconds later my stock is sold to Bob for $5.02, then I am loosing out on 2 cents. To me, this has *negative* value. I would like to know that, barring any significant news of the company, a few hours (or even days) wouldn't really change how much my stocks sell for. With HFT, the microsecond my stock sells matters, and this is very bad for long term investors.

      (If a middleman were the only person willing to buy my stock at $5, hold on to it for a two weeks while waiting for the company's earnings report to come out, and then sell it after that report to Bob for $5.50, then I think there is value in that, because otherwise I may not have been able to sell my stock at all, making it worthless, or had to sell for much lower than the market price, making the market price worthless. But I would consider this person to be a short term investor rather than a useless middleman.

      There are plenty of ways to implement the bid matching part of a gated system to eliminate the effect of bid-submission order or order size. For example, a Uniform Price Auction could be used, where everybody submits sealed bids and all of the traders willing to pay the competitive market clearing price for the round get to trade. (See wikipedia for details).

      The goals of the stock market should be to efficiently and accurately value companies and allow all sizes of investors to fairly participate. The needs of people participating in the market as a casino (those who aren't trading based on information about the underlying company but only on trying to beat the system) should be ignored.

    84. Re:Move to quantified data by Surt · · Score: 1

      The government is using the threat of violence to make you comply with any law with which you disagree or would otherwise not obey. They would only use the actual violence in the event that you refused to comply. The level of violence would, indeed, escalate as your non compliance escalated. The example you cite is perfect. If you are speeding, the first thing that happens is an officer signals you to pull over. When you fail to do so (continuing non-compliance) they call in more officers. Then swat. Obviously, neither you nor anyone else successfully resists the swat level in this country (not since the civil war, anyway). But the swat does, in fact, get called in to real situations that happen in this country. Force IS used when you don't comply with the law, and it will escalate up to the level of the army if it must.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    85. Re:Move to quantified data by Surt · · Score: 1

      Right, these things never happen precisely because no one believes they have even the slightest chance of winning in the end. In other countries, where the backing force just isn't as reliable or strong, resistance like this actually happens.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    86. Re:Move to quantified data by getSalled · · Score: 1

      The exchanges already charge a fee for every transaction for those who participate. You didn't think that was free, did you??

    87. Re:Move to quantified data by radtea · · Score: 2

      However, in my view, ideally, HFT market makers add these factors: immediacy and continuity.

      This suggests that without HFTs the market would not have immediacy and continuity, which is nonsense. Market makers were providing sufficient immediacy and continuity before HFT was common, and would continue to do so if HFT were engineered out of the system.

      You could argue that spreads are lower because of HFT, but you really haven't made that case, which is tricky. Spreads have come down in the last decade, but I'd expect in a market dominated by HFT for them to be far smaller than they are. This actually makes me doubt claims about the supposedly large fraction of market activity that HFT accounts for.

      There are any number of "fair" auction strategies out there that could be implemented, although all of them would have the effect of reducing liquidity. Personally, having traded in highly illiquid markets outside the US I do appreciate the benefit of the highly liquid US markets, but again, these markets were highly liquid prior to HFT and would continue to be so without it.

      HFT apologists make claims for the benefits of HFT, but they never point out that all those benefits existed before HFT ever existed. HFT is merely a way for the people who provide those benefits to skim more off their priviledged position close to the market.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    88. Re:Move to quantified data by letherial · · Score: 1

      Well violence, the word, is often used to describe something rather horrible, getting beat up or shot. Fact is, most law enforcement dont go around shooting everyone, they simply subdue the best they can..taser guns are a good example. You made it sound like if a wall street person doesn't follow the rules they will get hurt; when in fact they wont, NOBODY got hurt over this last calamity and im sure they broke rules for that one. In fact, they where bailed out.... I think your arguing a anarchist approach, and that is so 80's

    89. Re:Move to quantified data by Surt · · Score: 1

      Well, I would say the police have shown us a lot of evidence that they will escalate to lethal force at the drop of a hat. They've even been known to murder defenseless compliant people. But that's somewhat beside the point. My point is only that they will escalate if you do, and it's the threat of that escalation to actual violence that keeps people in line, even when fairly massive amounts of money are at stake.

      And no, I don't advocate the anarchist approach. I think the escalation to violence by police powers is the only way it works given human nature. I just don't lie to myself about how it works.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    90. Re:Move to quantified data by letherial · · Score: 1

      well i take threat of violence to be a real threat and not trivialized the word violence. To me the Chinese government enforces the rule of law under the threat of violence; USA laws tend to be more jail time and less death penalty's and beating people up. It is true police get carried away, but that's not how the USA government wants it, the whole system is built to avoid those kinds of problems, so no, i dont think the regulations are enforced due to threat of violence.

    91. Re:Move to quantified data by zeroshade · · Score: 1

      It's amusing how many assumptions you make about me.

      There are monopolies right now, killing all competition, only relying on the fact that they are completely government backed! WTF is wrong with you? All banks and large investment firms, all energy firms, military and insurances and communications and food and education, and utilities it's all gov't granted monopolies TODAY! And you are afraid of some hypothetical monopolies that could happen if there was no gov't monopolies? Why do YOU like gov't monopolies so much? What did they do for you except rob you of your money?

      I never said our current system is perfect, nor is it good. I never said that there are no monopolies either. However, banks and large investment firms are more of an oligopoly with everyone fighting for a monopoly but unable to due to the free market. So while it is very difficult for newcomers to join the market (which is a bad thing I agree) no one bank is able to achieve a monopoly so there is some (not enough) competition to have an effect. The same problem occurs with insurances. There is no monopoly, just many oligopolies. Hard for newcomers but there is still competition. For instance, car insurance. I just changed to a different company and saved money, could I do that if there was a monopoly? Nope. Also, we should inform all the private schools and universities that there is a government monopoly on education and that they should just shut down because they can't compete...wait, that's not right...In fact, it's government regulations which protect many industries from becoming monopolies due to regulations against anti-competitive behavior and such.

      You assume that government intervention is the ONLY reason the economy collapsed (which by the way it is recovering). In fact, there are many arguments which are accepted by leading economists that lack of financial regulation in many areas was a big factor in the collapse and that more regulation would have prevented it. Among other things.

      Many big businesses would make more money if not for government regulations which is why they are all against regulations. Government contracts have no business in this argument because that's a factor of the private market, the government puts money into the economy by purchasing the services of private companies. It's how any economy works. You seem to have lots of talking points but no logic or substance. It's simple economics that government injects money into the economy which stimulates economic growth. Government is supposed to spend in a recession.

      The point here is that the "free market" is not some be all end all solution to everything. Neither is government regulation. I don't agree with a lot of government subsidies and government established monopolies, however I also don't agree that lack of regulation would be a good thing as the businesses would just rape the consumers. One such example is that without anti-trust laws and regulations we'd have super-powerful monopolies and be unable to do anything about them abusing their market. I don't say our current system is perfect, nor is it even good, but it's a helluva lot better than pure unbridled capitalism and the "holy free market". The best economic system is a hybrid between capitalistic 'free markets' and allowing government regulation to prevent anti-competitive behavior.

    92. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, although all the thermal noise caused by the hot heads and the general quirkiness of yes/no/both people make it rather difficult to concentrate on the focus points which seem to vanish from the universe and to reappear in it quite erratically. Strings, bubbles and foam don't seem to help at all.

    93. Re:Move to quantified data by Surt · · Score: 1

      Force might have been a clearer word choice than violence, but technically they are synonyms, so IMO the op was justified in using it. I'd have likely used 'force' myself if I was making the same claim.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    94. Re:Move to quantified data by letherial · · Score: 1

      Either way, it hints that the US government deals with wall street in a tyrannical way, when the real tyrants are the bankers.

    95. Re:Move to quantified data by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      no one bank is able to achieve a monopoly so there is some (not enough) competition to have an effect.

      - distinction without a difference. The same guys from from one bank to another, then they end up in the gov't top positions, then they are back to the same banks.

      AFAIC they are effectively one bank, and together with the gov't and with the Fed they have their monopoly.

      --

      Car insurance is freaking gov't mandated, talk about monopoly system.

      --

      The gov't student loans together with the dept' of education is what created the monopoly in education. One system, paid from the same source. The source that gives out loans to kids. Loans for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Loans without collateral of any kind. Loans that are bigger than some mortgages in hope of what? That the kid will end up getting a hugely paid job to be able to pay this out? It's insane. It drives costs up because the public schools and universities see all that money. Also it screws education system, removes the incentives to actually educate kids and turns the system into a joke. An expensive joke. An expensive useless joke. Something no free market would ever have.

      --

      In fact except for the De Beers cartel, you will find it nearly impossible to point out a monopoly, which is NOT gov't based. All monopolies are gov't protected, bailed out, subsidized, regulated for, 'stimulated' and taxed for.

      --

      You assume that government intervention is the ONLY reason the economy collapsed (which by the way it is recovering).

      - I am not assuming it, I am stating it.

      Also you are wrong. Economy is NOT recovering. It will not recover, whatever it will do, it will not recover. Not with the mad gov't and mad Fed printing money while destroying savings and capital.

      The only way for the economy to recover is to abolish all gov't institutions, to cut gov't to pre 1920 levels, which would take it down to under 100 Billion dollars altogether, the way Hardin did it in 1920 to get out of that recession of 1920, which was actually even worse than the current one. That recession, in 1920, after Hardin cut the spending of gov't by 70% lasted for a year.

      Than USA had what's known as the 'roaring twenties'. Of-course that was also somewhat false, because Fed was still printing money and creating the next asset bubble in equity, which resulted in the Great Depression, once that recession was treated so differently by gov't, which decided to spend instead of cutting, to print instead of deleveraging honestly.

      This time it's worse. There is no capital, there is no manufacturing. There is huge level of inflation and there are no jobs. This one is going to crash so hard, once the US bonds are no longer held, it's going to crash the USD into oblivion when the Fed prints it to monetize all that debt.

      The US gov't is insolvent right NOW. So are ALL US banks. Right now. The debt can never be repaid and there is no production capacity. AFAIC USA in its 1800- 1970 form is over. It will crash, the USD will disappear and probably US itself will split into at minimum 2 separate countries. But we'll see. I am betting on it, all my assets, my business and my physical whereabouts is a bet on it.

      The 'leading economists' that are referenced by you are all crooks knowingly or unknowingly, but they are all crooks. BTW., I will forever consider the Nobel Prize to be a fucking joke until they take the prize from Krugman back. A shaman. The Fed chairmen, all of them past the time of Hardin are Keynesian shamans. Their only answer to all question is to print money. There is nothing else they know how to do.

      As to regulations - there is a huge reason China today is a much freer country to do business in, because of all that regulations that USA has. USA is probably the most regulated country and nearly the most highly taxed one. And I live in Europe and Asia after living in North American for 16 year, I can compare.

      NO BIG busi

    96. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ing (sharebuilder is what they call it) has some no-load, no-fee mutual funds with $1k min balance.

    97. Re:Move to quantified data by zeropointburn · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I did take that a bit too far. Sorry, and thanks for not jumping me in return.
      What really sucks is that there are some things that should be regulated (guns, drugs legal and otherwise, commons issues like pollution) and some things that should not. Once we leave the decision to regulate in the hands of people who will mostly profit from their power, we end up with regulations that funnel cash to certain powerful endpoints, and a few thrown in due to public outrage. Few of these are effective. How, then, do we retake control of that decision-making power when nearly every candidate is or can be made corrupt? That just leads back to the mess our government and our politics are in, which often appears to be the immovable mountain of inertia and apathy. Since so many otherwise-intelligent people choose rabid support for their favorite party rather than a per-candidate choice backed by research, there seems to be little hope for this country in the long run.

      --
      -1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
    98. Re:Move to quantified data by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      One of the most honest to god good responses I have ever read, and I agree completely as well.

      Perhaps there is hope, but it's a faint glimmer

      - Dan.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    99. Re:Move to quantified data by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

      [...] China, a communist state where conformity is law [...] - Dan.

      Ahem ... Also, the pollution you mentioned is just one of many side effects of capitalist MO (limiting costs). And - conformity is the desired behavior in representative democracy, which is just a vestibule to fascism. /rant

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    100. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These are not hackers, they are Hedge Fund managers. They use the 5 second delay (and really fast computers and algorithms) to make all their money.

    101. Re:Move to quantified data by zeroshade · · Score: 1

      The Great Depression was fixed by government spending and increases in taxes. There's your example.

      The rest of your words are based on rhetoric rather than fact. It's pointless to continue this.

    102. Re:Move to quantified data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sure they might run every 5 seconds but what if your ahead of the curve because you were able to delay traffic and get your bid in 1st. Thus getting the remaining shares available and then seeing the share price go up before your order goes in. I suppose a worse case scenario would be that you are able to get both an order and a sell in 5 seconds apart from each other. That way you get to guarantee you buy low and sell higher.

    103. Re:Move to quantified data by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      My point is that whether you are making 'investments' or not, even with a 5 second window people can still do denial of service attacks, forcing trades to get to market later, and making money for the attacker. (For example if the attacker knows a 'buy' order is being sent, then he can delay it until the next 5 second window and buy himself in the meantime, then sell it back at a higher price.) Your proposal of 5 second windows might prevent speculation, or restrict market activity to genuine investment, or all sorts of other things, but I don't think it would be an effective answer to the problem of market manipulation through denial of service attacks.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    104. Re:Move to quantified data by omnichad · · Score: 1

      How can the attacker buy during a DOS - even if he is the person behind the attack? Aren't his odds about the same? And since were dealing with drastically larger time scales it would have to be a DDOS or he'd be blocked during the trade window.
       
      Yes, I realize that with today's botnets-for-hire that any attack could easily be very spread out.

    105. Re:Move to quantified data by hsk17 · · Score: 1

      I don't really understand where you're coming from. It clearly does not seem like you are in the industry, because your comments sound prejudiced without basis. In any case, you should think about this: what percentage of the investing public actually knows about market microstructure? I'm not talking bonds or stocks. I'm talking about the inside bid, inside ask, spread, etc. What percentage of the news articles out there say "HFT's are stealing your money" and actually provide evidence? From what I've seen, the best argument seems that "we don't know what they're doing and they're very secretive, so they must be doing something illegal."
      So really, what evidence do you have that market makers don't help investors? As I mentioned, I'm sure that there are firms out there who abuse the market and make money off of unfair advantages such as flash trades. Unfortunately, all of these firms have been bundled up into "HFT" and the media has had a field day beating it up. Investors love to find someone to blame for the stock market going down. Whoever makes money, must be taking mine!
      We're doing what old specialists used to do, except fairer. Specialists were pretty much monopolists in certain stocks. Without competition, the spreads naturally were huge.
      For your information, we actually do talk about how much of the daily volume we're doing and what fraction of liquidity we provide. We're very proud of the fact that we are almost always on the inside bid and ask (the spread for which is often the minimum tick size, 1 cent) for many of the products we trade.

    106. Re:Move to quantified data by hsk17 · · Score: 1

      First of all, thank you for taking the time to explain your position.

      What does it mean to "make markets"? Stock markets have been around for a hundred years without high frequency trading, and they worked just fine.

      Exactly. They worked fine because market makers have been around for hundreds of years. High frequency market makers are just that... computerized market making.

      Think of it this way. Let's say you want to make a trade. Buy 100 shares of Google. What would you do? You would probably call up your broker and ask him to buy your shares. The next part is what investors don't see, which is why the concept of market making is usually missed. The basic idea is... who is going to trade against you? If you're buying 100 shares, that means someone needs to sell 100 shares. What if no one is willing to sell 100 shares? Then you have to wait. Maybe you can wait a few minutes. Maybe an hour. If the stock is illiquid, you might have to wait many hours. If the stock is rallying, no one might want to sell to you for a long time.

      That's where market makers come in. They don't own any of the stock, but they're willing to take the other side of your trade. As I mentioned, market makers make a continuous market possible. They're standing there ready to take either side of a trade. That allows you to think of a trade you want, enter it, and get it executed at a good price within the second.

      Why do we need middlemen to quickly buy and sell stocks? They only are willing to do so if they can make money.

      All businesses are willing to stay in business if they can make money. Doesn't mean they're not also providing a valuable service.

      So if I put out a sell order and want to sell my stocks for at least $5, and there is a HFT firm in the market that buys my stock for $5 one hundredth of a second later, then a few seconds later my stock is sold to Bob for $5.02, then I am loosing out on 2 cents. To me, this has *negative* value.

      "I want to sell for at least $5." What you're saying here is basically, "Give me the best price you can sell for, and sell it there." You're completely welcome to put in a limit order to sell at $5.00 or $5.01, depending on your internal algorithm for what's a "good price". You think your broker is giving you shitty fills? Well, then place the limit order yourself! No one is forcing you to trade at $5.00! Note the ambiguity of "best price". A price good now may be a terrible price tomorrow. Analogy: Let's say you're trying to sell a house at $500,000, but you can't find anyone right now to sell to. But then, a house flipper shows up and takes your offer. Later, you find that the flipper sold it for $550,000. Do you blame the flipper? You could have waited longer and sold it yourself for $550,000. You chose not to because you wanted to sell it immediately. On the other hand, if the value went down to $450,000, you'd probably be very happy, wouldn't you? The point is, you paid the price for selling it now. If you want a "better price", you can always sell later, but you have to be willing to take the risk.

      There are plenty of ways to implement the bid matching part of a gated system to eliminate the effect of bid-submission order or order size. For example, a Uniform Price Auction could be used, where everybody submits sealed bids and all of the traders willing to pay the competitive market clearing price for the round get to trade. (See wikipedia for details).

      I don't disagree. The auction-based system, with perhaps some complicated rule-set, may eliminate latency wars to a large extent. However, investors give up something in return. If the auction happens every hour, then investors cannot trade until those hours.

      The goals of the stock market should be to efficiently and accurately value companies and allow all sizes of investors to fairly participate. The needs of people participating in th

    107. Re:Move to quantified data by hsk17 · · Score: 1

      You make good points. Market makers were providing plenty of liquidity before. However, I challenge you to find data suggesting that the bid-ask spread has, in general, gotten worse because of computerized market making. We should not discourage firms from providing the fairest price for investors, i.e. provide the tightest spread. These firms are competing for investor business, and that's how spreads get tightened (if you're not at the inside, you don't get the trade).

      The spreads for the most liquid symbols are now at their minimum tick sizes, one cent. You can't improve on that, it's not mathematically possible. The argument can be made though, that the minimum tick size should be less than one cent. On stocks like Citigroup, it would probably save investors a lot. That's more of a regulatory issue though.

      I don't disagree that market makers / specialists always existed. In fact, I emphatically agree! HFT market making (note that I'm not including predatory HFT algos) is basically that -- computerized market making.

      Also, to your last comment -- why wouldn't you want market makers to get as close to the market as possible? That's a good thing! It's like Staples upgrading their technology to provide you with paper for cheaper. It's a win-win scenario. Instead of paying $25 for MS because the spread was $20-$25, the fastest market making firm now provides it for $23.35-$23.36, so you get your fill at $23.36. I'd say that's good for investors, isn't it? In the end, that's really the goal of all market makers -- to make the tightest spreads possible.

    108. Re:Move to quantified data by hsk17 · · Score: 1

      My last sentence may have been a cryptic.

      What I meant was that a lot of continuous market making is managing fleeting imbalances of supply and demand that do not really reflect the stock's fundamental value. As a result, specialists really are not helped by fundamental analysis. They're just hoping to win cents here and there, and that's their edge.

    109. Re:Move to quantified data by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      How can the attacker buy during a DOS - even if he is the person behind the attack? Aren't his odds about the same?

      Suppose for the sake of argument that you know someone is about to send a large 'buy' order. You can DoS their network traffic, stopping their order getting through, and in the meantime send a 'buy' order yourself. Then in the next trade period their order will finally get through.

      One can discuss about network topography and how practical it is that some script kiddie or Russian gang would be able to DoS with such precision. But my point is that if the attack is possible, then a 5 second tick interval or even a 5 hour interval would not prevent it.

      You may be right that for a less precise attack, based on DoSing the entire network, moving to 5 second ticks would avoid it. But I have my doubts; if you restrict trades to a fixed window then trading activity becomes a mad rush to get your order in just at the end of the window. That is still highly time-sensitive and can still be disrupted.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
  2. I doubt it by _merlin · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work in this business, and trust me - we count nanoseconds. We would notice if "hackers" were introducing delays.

    1. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I work in this business as well, this article is pure nonsense. I honestly don't know what the fuck this guy is talking about. Artificial delays would be picked up on immediately, no matter how brief. And it's not like this shit is trading over the internet, all endpoints are known, there is no anonymity, if someone tried this shit they'd be in jail by the end of the day.

    2. Re:I doubt it by Slackus · · Score: 1

      I agree, I believe Endace also plays in this market and their DAG capture cars used for monitoring has a 7.5ns packet timestamp resolution.

    3. Re:I doubt it by countSudoku() · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While not directly for Wall Street, I've been at a couple of related industries (super five 9 HA hardware maker and a free stock website) and I'll wholeheartedly agree; the end results will get noticed faster than you can login to Ameritrade. And what is up with the completely false term "undetectable hacking?" That's got to be the stupidest term I've heard this century. There is no such thing as undetectable hacking. Shame on the coiner's lack of knowledge in computer security and forensics. FAIL.

      --
      This is the NSA, we're gonna geet U h@x0r5! Also, what is a h@x0r5?
    4. Re:I doubt it by dwarfsoft · · Score: 1

      Even as somebody who does not work in the industry, I cannot see how " Hackers Find New Way To Cheat On Wall Street", It even says in the article "Kay says he does not know if anyone has yet launched a side-channel attack against a high-frequency trading network". How did the Hackers find this? Or is this story really just "Rony Kay Worries that Hacker MIGHT Find A Way To Cheat On Wall Street".

      --
      Cheers, Chris
    5. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Interesting, someone else who "works in the industry" mentioned this a few months back in a post related to wall street, and said it was a common practice they see on just about everything. Something about flooding the server with bogus transactions preventing competitors from making purchases before theirs go in, or something to that effect.

    6. Re:I doubt it by trentblase · · Score: 1

      Wasn't the flash crash caused by incorrect time stamps, though? If quotes are not being stamped correctly, how would you detect the delays? (no, I did not RTFA)

    7. Re:I doubt it by _merlin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That might let you attack investment banks and hedge funds who are communicating with their brokers over the Internet or VPNs like BT Radianz, but in that situation, it's nothing more than a regular Internet DOS attack. It won't affect real HF traders. If you're HF, your gear is colocated with the broker or exchange, and you use point-to-point links to control it from your office. Attacks would be noticed and attackers identified, as it would have to be an inside job.

    8. Re:I doubt it by euyis · · Score: 2

      It's InfoWorld. What else could you expect from a website that inserts shitty inline advertisements in the articles and splits a short story that fits well in one page into three pages?

    9. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Hacker" as a term does not denote positive or negative intentions. "Hackers" would claim to have discovered anything here regardless of whether or not the attack had been launched as most security experts handling bug discovery would call themselves white hat hackers. Duh.

    10. Re:I doubt it by dwarfsoft · · Score: 1

      So he suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder? The article only mentioned him, and from TFA it doesn't even say he has managed to implement this so how exactly is he considered a Hacker, or claim that he found anything. As far as I can tell he is just theorizing that it MAY be possible.

      --
      Cheers, Chris
    11. Re:I doubt it by _merlin · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're an idiot and you don't know what market making is. The prices options trade at are so close to the theoretical fair price that there is very little money to be made on each trade - often only cents. To keep the company in the black while paying a bunch of talented developers and network engineers, you have to make as many trades as possible. The reason for cutting down latency is so that we can snap up that 80c before anyone else.

      Maybe you're not thinking about market making - maybe you're thinking about those clowns trying to game each others' algos on NASDAQ. The guys who place orders and delete them faster than they could ever trade just to see how the other guys' algos react, and have "geniuses" talking crap about how foolproof their theory of predicting stock prices falling is, and basically treat trading as a black art. They serve no useful purpose, and just create extra noise in the data feeds that need to be processed. I don't think they really do a great deal of harm most of the time - most of the money they make and lose is just being passed around between each other. They're all a big circle jerk.

      You can't lump all HF traders together. (And for the record, I'm a geek: I design, develop and support the systems; I don't sit on the dest trading.)

    12. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then they sync the NIC timestamp with the host clock, losing up to 2us precision over PCIe. Datasheet, meet Reality...

    13. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work in this business

      Oh yeah? Well fuck you then. Please, even if you can't think of a way to give back to society, come up with a way to make a living without gambling away working peoples' pensions.

    14. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually they sync the NIC to an external PPS (pulse per second) signal generated from a stable clock which is synced to multiple GPS satellites. In that setup you get much better than 1us precision

    15. Re:I doubt it by kyhwana · · Score: 2

      Actually, you can sync the DAG card to GPS time.

      --
      My email addy? should be easy enough.
    16. Re:I doubt it by chimpo13 · · Score: 1

      You never noticed when I changed the percentage of cents from everyone's salary to go into my secret account. The trick to avoid passwords is typing in "override all security". Works every time. My old mentor Gus Gorman filled me in. He's dead now, so I'm not ratting him out.

    17. Re:I doubt it by LordNacho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Amen. You're in minority here. With me. I do what you do, and the debate in the public sphere is unbelievably uninformed.

      BTW, it's not just option hedging that requires HFT. There's loads of different things to do, and some of them look silly from the outside. I've seen quite a variety of algos, all trying to do different things, on different timescales, on different markets. Of course the media tend to focus on what they've heard of, stocks.

    18. Re:I doubt it by c0lo · · Score: 1

      I work in this business, and trust me - we count nanoseconds. We would notice if "hackers" were introducing delays.

      And what would you do when you detect such delays? Call the police in femptoseconds?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    19. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think it's reasonable to take away somebody's freedom because they delay your computer for a microsecond? Your job consists of manipulating imaginary numbers, while leeching value from members of society that produce something useful. Maybe you should get a grip on reality...

    20. Re:I doubt it by eedlee · · Score: 1

      We call what you do "trading", but if anyone else does it it's called "hacking". Awesome.

    21. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Electric signals travel at about .3 - 3 m in a nanosecond, assuming no collisions in the network.

      I call bullshit.

    22. Re:I doubt it by Sparohok · · Score: 2

      trust me - we count nanoseconds

      Incidentally, light travels a bit more than one foot in a nanosecond. I trust you that you think you're counting nanoseconds.

      Martin

    23. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of wishful thinking here.
      Millions are made by that "black art" of yours, but you don't know, and how should you.

      And it's a good thing to stay that way...

      Posting AC obviously.

      Oh, btw:

      To keep the company in the black while paying a bunch of talented developers and network engineers, you have to make as many trades as possible.

      I think grandparent's gripe is with this: what's the purpose of such a HF company? Why do we allow them to leech away the money that could go to something actually useful?

    24. Re:I doubt it by _merlin · · Score: 1

      WTF? You don't know the difference between hedge funds and market makers? I know the media likes to beat up on the finance industry as a whole, but not all are alike. Fund managers are often no better than diviners or soothsayers. They think they have some special, magical insight, but most of the time you'd do just as well randomly choosing stocks. That has nothing to do with what I do. I help keep derivative prices fair and liquid.

    25. Re:I doubt it by _merlin · · Score: 5, Informative

      Millions are made by that "black art" of yours, but you don't know, and how should you.

      Yeah, and then they lose it again, because they're clowns - look at the current state of Timber Hill.

      I think grandparent's gripe is with this: what's the purpose of such a HF company? Why do we allow them to leech away the money that could go to something actually useful?

      Keeps the price fairer - if market makers weren't all clamouring for your trade, it might cost you $5 beyond the fair price instead of the $1 you pay because we're all trying to undercut each other. It's competition in action.

    26. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Just to be clear here, we are talking about nanoseconds; one of which is how long it takes light to travel 30cm. So, let us posit the existence of equipment that can cope with some number of trades over a span of nanoseconds in a single day (86 trillion). This is simply a smooth line to the average person, but we have money on our side. Every variable is controlled, and all equipment has a quality that would make the SI kilogram standard look like a dirty rock I dug up yesterday. In fact, screw network links. All of this is taking place on 1 chip with such perfect connections between CPU and memory that every transaction takes, oh, a thousandth of a nanosecond. Plus or minus a few hundred-thousandths of a nanosecond.

      As plausible as all this, call me skeptical if I don't think such a thing can be perfectly symmetrical in every respect. With your time scale so small, a variety of interesting and destructive effects should arise that would normally be invisible. The quality of your copper and glass, even when controllable to parts-per-billion; The temperature of your server rooms and drives, solid-state or not; geometry of every inch of your data conduits. Although the article is discussing the attacks on the scale of internet traffic and not the minuscule realms you are, the idea is still that attacks that occur below the level of your accuracy cannot be detected. 7 years ago we could measure on the scale of the attosecond, which makes your nanoseconds look like regular seconds. Why should I, the layman with oodles of money and time to invest, believe that your system is as absolute as you say it is?

    27. Re:I doubt it by blair1q · · Score: 2

      I don't think they really do a great deal of harm most of the time

      Like any martingale, they don't have to do any harm most of the time. It's that one time that their theory falls into its singularity that they and the rest of the world get fucked.

      Anyone can Google "flash crash" for an example of what I mean.

    28. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No we really do. I wrote a 280 nanosecond price feed one time and I knew I could get it close to 200 if I just did things a little better. HFT programmers are far better than even Google can imagine.

    29. Re:I doubt it by Kaotiq · · Score: 1

      I tend to agree, the arbitrage scenario would require you to be able to have a private network to detect the price variation between the markets and do the trading, while you are doing that you'd have to change everyone else's feeds latency.
      I'd suggest that existing market surveillance would almost certainly catch this, whether it was classified as market manipulation would depend on the regulator but if they could show you'd tried to manipulate the latency of other peoples feeds I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

      --
      Be wary of strong drink, it can make you shoot at tax collectors and miss.
    30. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, the quote "profits of millions of dollars in just a few seconds" is umm ... a bit hyperbolic.

    31. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, but undetectable hacking is self-defining. If you detect it, then it isn't undetectable. All the hacking that goes undetected is undetectable hacking.

    32. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about ETFs - is HFT used to keep the price of an ETF close to the price of the underlying assets?

    33. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mark parent informative

    34. Re:I doubt it by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      Actually there is *one* category of undetectable hacking: hacking voting machines.

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    35. Re:I doubt it by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Shame on the coiner's lack of knowledge in computer security and forensics. FAIL.

      But kudos for raising the hype and getting page hits and making his boss very happy... SUCCESS! with a possible bonus.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    36. Re:I doubt it by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      You can't lump all HF traders together.

      Yeah you can. They're gamblers, not investors. Not that that's a bad thing, but let's call things what they are.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    37. Re:I doubt it by arivanov · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      I did some consulting for one of the top 5 world banks a couple of years back and they had wad of cash with 6 zeroes at the end on the table for network monitoring.

      5ms? There are places where 5us will not go unnoticed. It is being monitored top to bottom and logged with nanosecond precision timestamps for audit just in case.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    38. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, arbitrage trading does that; it's usually a separate part of the bank. Some similarities exist, but they are certainly distinct.

    39. Re:I doubt it by drsquare · · Score: 1

      To keep the company in the black while paying a bunch of talented developers and network engineers, you have to make as many trades as possible. The reason for cutting down latency is so that we can snap up that 80c before anyone else.

      Interesting how stock markets worked before all this nanosecond bollocks then. People managed to start companies, attract funding, and bring products to market when trades may have taken days.

      All that money on staff and hardware just to lift 80 cents out of others people's productivity, like some 21st century skinflint. Why do you need to snap it up before anyone else? If you're a necessary middle-man, then you don't need low latency as you're waiting for a buyer to come along later. If someone else is willing to make the trade it doesn't seem like you're contributing anything more to the process than a ticket scalper.

    40. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I work in this business, and trust me - we count nanoseconds. We would notice if "hackers" were introducing delays."

      Hypothetical scenario:

      Option/Stock is affected by a small change in price. Somebody doing small trades will ignore it - somebody handling huge number of stocks/options per trade may be making millions.

      Assume you are one of such institutions. Given the nature of the business, if you are not the first one to cash in on the change, the subsequent trade of options/stocks by your large competitor will affect the price, therefore limiting your earning potential.

      Now, to business.

      Get a hardline access to your competitor. It needs not be physical - even current in shielded cables can be manipulated if you have the money to invest in the technology. Remember, you are one of those institutions whose business it is to make money, lots of it, from the stock and options markets.

      Detecting a suitable trade, you manipulate your competitor's signal to continue showing no change in price until your trade goes through.

      Profit.

      Both the technology and knowledge required to do so exist.

      You will not see a delay. You will see delayed price changes that you will not detect until you compare one feed to another that you are absolutely certain has not been compromised. Assuming you can be certain of that.

      Oh, the fun to be had.

      I R in UR data feed, killing UR tradez!

    41. Re:I doubt it by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      Yes, some form of arbitrage has to be employed to keep the basket correctly priced. Usually this means you'll have to do it quickly, which is where certain HFT strategies come in.

    42. Re:I doubt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they are often the same. I have worked at 3 HFT firms and 2 of them had basket trading strategies.

  3. OK by afidel · · Score: 4, Funny

    So they are going to steal from the HFT's that are already performing a salami attack on the broader market, I'm not sure I see a problem here....

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    1. Re:OK by Chowderbags · · Score: 1

      They'll keep cutting, and cutting, and sooner or later we'll end up with a second market. I told you the SEC shouldn't have allowed the axiom of choice!

  4. terrific usage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but unsurprising

  5. Hacking? by timeOday · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How is this really any different from bread-and-butter high-frequency trading? Firms spend millions to put their servers physically closer to the trading computers to edge out everybody else by a few milliseconds. Boo hoo, now some "hacker" almost put them back on a level playing field with almost everybody else. It's all financially meaningless, totally legal theft.

  6. Only millions? by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's chump change on Wall St. Compared to the kind of stuff Goldman Sachs pulls on a regular basis, I'm not too worried about high-frequency traders getting scammed. What's very clear is that none of it has much of anything to do with actual sound investing.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    1. Re:Only millions? by tverbeek · · Score: 1

      All the more reason to regulate this whole approach to "investing" out of the picture altogether.

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    2. Re:Only millions? by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Good luck with that.

      I mean, the kind of stuff Elizabeth Warren's proposed for regulating credit cards has approval of something like 95% of the public in polls. That doesn't mean she can actually make it happen.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  7. High-speed trading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The high-speed trading exchanges that conduct the business of buying and selling stocks and mutual funds are so fast that hackers can introduce delays of a few microseconds [...] and manipulate prices in the process to reap millions of dollars to the detriment of everyone else

    And this is different from automated high-speed trading HOW?

  8. Distrust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This kind of activity creates new reason to distrust Wall Street

    Aw, c'mon! What's wrong with all the old reasons?!?

    1. Re:Distrust by Canadian+Window+C'er · · Score: 1

      The issue I take with this article is the blanket statement of "wall street". You can't blame every thing that may or may not have happened financially on "Wall Street".

      It's a vague statement!!!

  9. Good grief... by tool462 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's not a news article, it's an advertisement.

    High-frequency trading networks, which complete stock market transactions in microseconds, are vulnerable to manipulation by hackers who can inject tiny amounts of latency into them. By doing so, they can subtly change the course of trading and pocket profits of millions of dollars in just a few seconds, says Rony Kay, a former IBM research fellow and founder of a cPacket Networks, a Silicon Valley firm that develops chips and technologies for network monitoring and traffic analysis.

    (emphasis mine)

    A man who claims companies are losing millions due to network latency sells tools to monitor network latency? A reliable source, I'm sure.

    1. Re:Good grief... by JeffSh · · Score: 1

      "There's a big problem, says man with solution to said problem"

    2. Re:Good grief... by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

      "Hackers" didn't find it, and the article is like 4 paragraphs on 3 pages. It's an advert and a revenue generator for infoworld. Of course I have NoScript and other blockers, so I clicked through all 3 pages to waste their bandwidth. I suggest everyone do the same.

    3. Re:Good grief... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Funny
      The summary said:

      InfoWorld

      You said:

      That's not a news article, it's an advertisement

      Your post therefore deserves -1, Redundant.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Good grief... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the part about hackers manipulating the stock market are true at least. His name is Julian Assange. Notice how a company's stocks plummet as soon as he mentions "cables". Time to build up the "legal defence fund" coffers.

  10. Liuqidity! Liquidity! Liquidity! by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's what we hear, anyway, whenever anyone proposes that maybe ever-higher-speed trading isn't such a great idea.

    It's a load of crap, of course. Yes, liquidity is good. No, restricting trades to, say, one per second -- which is still faster than any trading ever took place during the centuries of stock trading before computer trading became common -- would not bring our economy to a screeching halt. In fact, it would probably encourage economic growth by encouraging actual investing instead of the giant casino that the stock market has become.

    Of course, in a casino, the house always wins, and since in the case the house also owns the House and the Senate too, this is never going to happen. Sigh.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  11. Marketing from a start-up by jsailor · · Score: 3, Informative

    There are several products on the market that are employed by the Exchanges and their large customers to track all of this.
    This is a marketing paper for what appears to be an interesting product.
    Existing vendors already capture, log, analyze (in realtime), traffic across multiple probes and provide real-time alerting along with monitoring, measurement, etc. These products are all leading edge and are changing rapidly. They've solved many problems with proprietary schemes of various sorts. Not the least of which was time synchronization at the nanosecond level.

    For very simple public information, just look at latencystats.com. Keep in mind, more detailed info and analysis is going on behind the scenes.

  12. Ok, settle down there .. by Bitmanhome · · Score: 1

    Firstly, it's not undetectable, since you just detected it. Secondly, it doesn't affect everybody, just the HFT people. Most of us don't have much sympathy for them, so we wouldn't consider it a problem.

    Scanning for this behavior is going to be challenging, as HFTers will want to detect this particular misbehavior while hiding their own misbehavior.

    --
    Not that this wasn't entirely predictable.
  13. Hackers or Goldman Sachs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There have been a series of articles about this problem on the Market Ticker (Karl Denninger). Read his blog for a couple weeks and you will have nothing but contempt for our financial system -- especially the large banks and our government "regulators". It needs a thorough purging of indictments and prosecutions in order to achieve anything close to reliable for investment.

    Unfortunately, every other possible avenue for investment seems to be on just as shaky ground. It is one of those times when I am glad I am not rich (I have less to lose).

  14. While the article is BS.... by HerculesMO · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The reality of Wall Street ripping off the consumer is not far from reality. I work "in the industry" as well (and have, for 10 years), and I've seen and been witness to all kinds of shams and problems that Wall Street is culpable for.

    Let's just leave it simply, the average investor doesn't know *anything* about investing. They don't know stocks, bonds, they don't know diversification, they don't know how to change allocations before retirement age for 401ks, etc. But the sad thing is, Wall Street doesn't either. They may know the P/E ratios of firms, the current stock price, and lots of fancy math, but the reality is that a lot of money made on Wall Street isn't in active trading, it's in knowing their customers and playing on that information, and topping it all off with fees. For example, Goldman advises its customers, and the clients lose out, and Goldman wins -- See here. This isn't uncommon.

    The simplest secret about Wall Street is that the average investor can forgo using a trading firm, and just invest in an index fund instead (like the S&P). Those funds have very low fees, and require zero understanding about Wall Street. They go up as the economy gets better, they go down as it doesn't. And less than 20% of firms out there can *BEAT* the S&P, meaning that 80% actually do worse. In addition, they charge higher fees. So if you throw your money into the index fund, you don't have to know anything, and you do just as well as 80%+ of the firms out there, and keep the fees they'd charge you to just meet the same ROR in your pocket.

    Sadly, you'll never hear about this on the Street, because it would ruin their whole scam. The only thing you need to know is that 5-10 years before retirement age, pull out of indexes and put into guaranteed products so you don't get thrashed on your retirement day, and you'll be a happy camper.

    With the amount of influence Wall Street has in our government, in our economy, it's about due time we start getting them the hell out of the way so that we can do better as a country. I know it sounds cheesy, but it's true.

    --
    The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    1. Re:While the article is BS.... by u19925 · · Score: 1

      The article is indeed bullshit and some of the claims violate the very fundamental laws of physics the author cite. Take for example "...it typically takes about 50 milliseconds to send a message from New York to London. Placing a server in between the two could cut the speed of communication in half, they said, which may be enough time to take advantage of some momentary pricing discrepancy....". How do you accomplish this. By the time you get trading data to server halfway and create a trade and send the trade to NY for execution, the data from London has already reached NY. In fact theoretically you cannot take advantage of speed of light by itself. What you can take advantage would be if you setup a custom network between London and New York, which uses shorter and faster cable (coax RF is faster than optical) and networking equipments which are custom built to eliminate latency.

    2. Re:While the article is BS.... by labradore · · Score: 4, Informative

      When everyone buys index funds, the index managers have huge leverage to manipulate. The high freq traders have more leverage to manipulate the fund traders. The market as a whole becomes more correlated. There's nothing wrong with index investing, but if everyone does a lot of index investing, at some point you are looking into a pricing hall of mirrors instead of a working market and it takes fewer and smaller non-conforming players get enough leverage to tilt the whole applecart. We already see the effects of this from the studies that show that the markets are now more correlated than before the popularity of the index funds.

      If you want to limit the effects of rogue players, don't just ignore them. Prohibit their abuses. The 5-second trade granularity mentioned above seems like a good start.

    3. Re:While the article is BS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to diversify your bonds nigga

    4. Re:While the article is BS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 5-second rule would just create the same kind of cold war: this time it would be about who processes all the external data fastest during those 5 seconds and who gets it into the next 5 seconds batch at the last possible moment (nanoseconds before the window closes).

      There would also be a whole bunch of secondary markets that would feed into the primary market - and the high-speed investing would happen in the secondary markets.

      You'd have to bar secondary markets all around the globe, with no exception. It only takes a Lichtenstein or Luxemburg to create the next super-secondary-market.

      So this is not going to happen and everyone knows it.

      Nor is HFT really a problem. High-speed trading is a computerized tool, so if you have an investment edge you can use those tools yourself to get a slightly more efficient entry into the market. And if arbitrage increases volatility that's even better for the value investor: you can buy the dip even cheaper than you could a decade ago - and at superb liquidity.

      Also, the 'cost' of HFT to the average investor is at most 1 or 2 cents. A far cry from the pre-electronic stock market where the overhead was 50 cents or more ...

    5. Re:While the article is BS.... by yoblin · · Score: 1

      I don't think so. If distance between NY and London is 10: Scenario A: you are 1 from NY, 9 from London. You will have information about time X from NY in X+1 and London in X+9. Your long to NY will take 1 and your short to London will take 9. That's a total of 18 to get quote and fill in London. Scenario B: you are 5 from NY, 5 from London. Total to get quote and get filled in both markets is equal at 10. The longest path is your latency in a simple long/short arbitrage situation, so being equidistant to all of your liquidity centers is advantageous.

    6. Re:While the article is BS.... by blair1q · · Score: 1

      less than 20% of firms out there can *BEAT* the S&P,

      You do realize that's because the S&P comprises 500 companies that are winning already, don't you?

      It's pretty easy to look through the S&P itself and pick a couple of companies that will beat it over your desired interval.

      And if you're lucky, they'll beat inflation, too.

    7. Re:While the article is BS.... by aliquis · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure but I've seen a page describing it as if they can get "previews" of orders anyway so then speed of the transfers doesn't matter much at all.

      If there are 10.000x for sale at 10 dollars and 5.000x at 10.1 dollars, and you get a preview of a purchase there someone tries to buy say 8.000x, put in a purchase of 10.000x at 10 yourself and send your order before the other order is passed then guess who wins? Then sell the 10.000x again at 10.1 == profit (unless price drop for the 5+10-8 = 7.000 you still hold in this example but whatever.)

      I don't know if that was really an option they did provided for some or not.

      Also if there are say volumes of 4.000 stocks at 9.90, 9.80, 9.70 and sales of 4.000 at 10.0, 10.1 and 10.2 and you put an order of 500.000 at 10.0 and get 4.000 then guess what? No-one will get to buy at 9.90 and no-one want to be in your queue so prices will most likely raise (?), sell anything you get at 10.1 or 10.2 if people start to up their bids to 10.1 to get above yours.

      Maybe. As a private person I don't think you're allowed to have one order of each within the system. I have no idea if anyone else is allowed to.

    8. Re:While the article is BS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a strange myth, HFT front running, that seems to have started somewhere. It doesn't happen and is impossible. I am an HFT veteran and know my stuff. The order ports are all private connections to the exchanges and there is no way to see anybody else's orders.

      What I think started this myth was the flash order type where a market participant could CHOSE to have his order flashed. "The" market is actually a group of individual markets, and when Reg NMS came along it required that a market, if it does not have the best price of all the markets, route the order to the market that does. A lot of people don't like this because not all markets are equally good. Some have horrendously stale quotes that are long gone but there systems are just too slow to publish fresh data. Some people like the certainty of execution over that penny price difference. The SEC took it upon itself to define "best execution" solely in terms of price and not risk.

      The flash order would actually publish the quote for 30 ms (I think that was the time) before sending it off to the market with the best price. That allowed traders who wanted more certainly of execution to get it.

      Some people did make strategies that when they saw these flash quotes, assume they weren't going to be executed against and trade in front of them on other markets. As far as I know they aren't big money makers, and if the trader didn't want his quote flashed, he just doesn't need to use that order type.

    9. Re:While the article is BS.... by ftobin · · Score: 1

      When everyone buys index funds, the index managers have huge leverage to manipulate. The high freq traders have more leverage to manipulate the fund traders. The market as a whole becomes more correlated.

      I'm not following this argument. Index funds, by definition, rarely trade. A total-market fund would almost never trade. If they are not trading, they wouldn't be contributing to correlation one way or the other. I would actually suspect that index funds should help facilitate less correlations since there is less liquidity for stock-picking active managers to make use of, causing more volatility in individual stocks.

      I could possibly seen an argument regarding ETFs, not mutual funds, however. Buy and sell pressures likely grow and fade in ETFs much more than index mutual funds, and this causes the underlyings to move in tandem. I'm not sure how to reconcile this with my first paragraph, though. Perhaps correlations increase if people are only interested in making sector/asset-class bets with index funds, but decrease if they are more interested in making stock-picks.

  15. physical access by rla3rd · · Score: 1

    The type of attack they are talking about here requires physical access of some sort. good luck pulling that off in the HFT's location.

  16. I've seen this by medge_42 · · Score: 1

    In The Grifters and at least one episode of Hustle.

  17. Of course, they're called hedge funds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    What do you think Hedge funds do.. They use computer algorithms to trade, not sound
    investment strategies. Wall Street is a place where big banks and hedge funds siphon off of
    peoples retirement plans these days..

  18. This isn't bullshit by DontLickJesus · · Score: 1

    Nor is it exactly new. After the last strange dip in the stock exchange a lot of research was done into this, and it basically comes down to inserting bullshit data into the stream so that competitors have to process the data while the injector does not.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2010/08/market-data-firm-spots-the-tracks-of-bizarre-robot-traders/60829/

    --
    Where genius and insanity become confused true wisdom is found
    1. Re:This isn't bullshit by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      This is more realistic, but TFA is talking about readingthe electromagnetic emissions from equipment, rather than injecting packets onto the network by ordinary means:

      (A side-channel attacker looks at indirect information related to the computer -- the electromagnetic emanations from screens or keyboards, for example -- to determine what is going on in the machine. )

    2. Re:This isn't bullshit by DontLickJesus · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I realized that after writing, by bad. How are they expecting to get access to the physical machines? Seems a bit silly honestly.

      --
      Where genius and insanity become confused true wisdom is found
  19. Get off my lawn! by antifoidulus · · Score: 5, Funny

    Back in my day Wall Streeters got money the old fashioned way, they bribed politicians to funnel taxpayer money into the firms while simultaneously getting the politicians to look the other way when banks committed crimes....whats that you say? They are still doing that? Well I guess somethings never change.

    Now get off my lawn.....Whats that you say? The bank has illegally foreclosed on my property despite not actually being in debt to them and it's legally THEIR lawn now, and I'M the one that has to get off of it? Well, it's a good thing I have support from my local polit....ah fuck it.

    1. Re:Get off my lawn! by iceaxe · · Score: 1

      This is why front porches need shotguns.

      --
      WALSTIB!
    2. Re:Get off my lawn! by blair1q · · Score: 1

      They fucked up the paperwork. You're suddenly debt-free.

  20. Re:Liuqidity! Liquidity! Liquidity! by jfengel · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Liquidity IS good, and in the end, I don't see how this is doing anything but provide more of it.

    If the hackers are netting themselves a bunch of money by out-trading the other high-frequency-traders... good for them. It's not my money they're taking, because I've got better places to put my money than trying to out-arbitrage the arbitrageurs. But both of them, the Evil Hackers and the White Hat Ginormous Wall Street Bank, are both making sure that when I do sell my stocks, I've always got somebody to sell it to.

    The arbitrage means that maybe I'm losing .01% off the transaction. If that's Big Money in aggregate, it's still only a tiny fraction of the mount of money on the line. It's money I couldn't ever get my hands on.

    So I don't really much care who wins here. Let 'em fight it out.

  21. Plus a random fraction of a second. by khasim · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Setting a fixed time moves the goal to whomever can shave their systems closest to that fixed time.

    Set a fixed time ... plus a random fragment of a second. That way no one knows exactly WHEN the trade will go through. But it's still close enough for humans choosing to trade.

    The key here is to reduce the ability of software to "cheat" but still allow humans to trade.

    1. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by omnichad · · Score: 1

      That does sound even better, though shaving close to that fixed time still leads to less abuse. During that whole 5 seconds, you have no feedback on what the rest of the market is going to do. Plus, you've opened up almost-high-frequency trading to the entire world, rather than just the local datacenter.

    2. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by kasperd · · Score: 2

      Setting a fixed time moves the goal to whomever can shave their systems closest to that fixed time.

      There would only be to reasons for going that way. One reason would be to be able to complete some heavier calculations before the deadline. But if that was the reason then more processing power and faster algorithms is a much more reliable way to achieve the same than playing the latency games.

      The other (more likely) reason for wanting to get close to the deadline is to take benefit of additional information that became available later. You can stop information from the market itself from being used in this way by ensuring it is only published at the same intervals. Let bids be submitted encrypted and then be published after the bid closes for the round.

      With this approach the only reason left for playing with the latency is if external information could affect the prices. So, if something comes up in the news that could change the prices, then if such news breaks just before the deadline and automatic trading systems takes this into account, then playing with latencies can matter in those rare cases.

      The longer the period, the less likely the news is to break just before the deadline.

      That way you'd remove the "legitimate" reasons for worrying about subsecond latencies. If none of the regular traders are dependent on subsecond latencies, then hackers trying to affect prices by affecting those latencies will have a much harder job.

      If you try to affect the one remaining place where the latencies matters, namely for external news, you'd have a much higher chance of any significatn impact by manipulating the contents of the news themselves rather than the timing of them.

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    3. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      so in effect say 30 minutes and (5d20)/6 seconds is when a given trade will "count"

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    4. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      That dose not seem like a AD&D players dice. Old school pen and paper Harpoon player maybe?

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    5. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      That's not necessary -- you can just remove the margin to be faster altogether. Just collect all the bids placed before the fixed point, without telling anyone what the other bids are. (i.e., everyone sends in their supply/demand curve for a given security) Then, the computer could look at just those bids (any further bids would apply to the *next* fixed time), resolve the trades by an algorithm, and spit out the results when it's done.

      In that case, everyone who got their bet in before the fixed time is on equal footing. You don't know any more or less, nor get any better or worse treatment as a result of being able to place a bid one pico/nano-second before the fixed time, and the race to compete on insanely fast execution of trades is over.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    6. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      OMG. You've just reinvented the auction. And guess what, I know a guy who writes algos to game this exact thing.

    7. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like this idea, but I'm worried as to how are you gonna have a reliable source of entropy in that setting. If someone perchance manages to find out how long the next random fragment is going to last, we'd have a problem.

    8. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Hardware RNG?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    9. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      In auctions, people know the other bids, and can adapt the information they reveal as they learn this. Under what I proposed, they don't and can't.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    10. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by sjames · · Score: 1

      If the time is truly quantized such that nobody can see any of the orders until they settle at the end of the quantum and the orders that happened within are randomly matched (such that they all truly happened at the same virtual time) the advantage goes away.

    11. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      That's not true of all auctions. Certain markets show you the current clearing price only. But it's been a while since I looked at them.

    12. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had three goes at trying to describe why this makes no sense and I can't.

      Thousands of traders buying and selling, trying to get the best price and you talk about a trade as though it was an atomic thing! An already known entity!

      I don't walk into my brokers and say, "Hello chaps, anybody want to buy my Microsoft? Let's pop down to Lloyd's and hash out a good price over a cup of coffee, what ho."

    13. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by Geminii · · Score: 1

      Every minute on the minute, plus or minus anything up to ten seconds.

    14. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Then would you mind being a bit more specific about how the auction type I described is traditionally gamed?

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    15. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      It basically revolves around looking at what people were doing in the market in roughly the half hour before normal market trading ended. From that, he'd make a guess (well, a calculation) as to whether people generally wanted to buy or sell. He would guess that the larger players would not manage to get their trades off, and so they would try to do the rest in the auction. He'd then trade as appropriate, and exit in the auction. (Variant of this is to enter in the auction, and exit the next morning.) Again, some kind of calculation as to where the auction would end. Doesn't sound foolproof at all, but he never lost money on it, on a daily basis. And of course I can't go into much detail, as I wasn't privileged to those details.

    16. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      So how did that end up ripping off people who entered clear supply/demand curves for the securities, again?

      Oh, you mean there was another significant divergence from what you're describing and the auction system I described? Well, try again when you can do a little better than pattern-matching for analysis.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    17. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      Dude, that's what people do. Well, some people. BTW, how exactly do you enter your whole supply/demand curve? How do you keep it honest?

    18. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Dude, that's what people do.

      Yep, people game systems that are different in fundamental ways from the one I'm describing. Still not responsive to the issue at hand.

      BTW, how exactly do you enter your whole supply/demand curve? How do you keep it honest?

      That is how Swedish utilities buy power, so it's definitely possible. Also, limit orders already do this: they say, e.g., "I will buy up to 40 shares at $100/share or any lower price; nothing otherwise."

      You keep it honest because you are required to honor any offer within your curve. So you don't *really* want to buy any shares at $100? Then put a zero at that point (and all higher prices), or else someone can take the offer and force you to buy at that price.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    19. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      Any set of rules will have a way to play. What's the fundamental difference? The timing gap? Or the fact that the whole curve is there? People out there will spoof the curve, getting other people to think there's real demand at this or that point. And they'll guess that the cost of being called on their bluff is lower than what they make.

      Interesting idea however.

    20. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Any set of rules will have a way to play. What's the fundamental difference? The timing gap? Or the fact that the whole curve is there?

      The fact that

      a) people have to explicitly commit to every price they could end up having to trade at (i.e. no "sell these shares 'at the market' ... holy shit! A flash crash! No, no, reverse the trade! Waaaah!")

      b) no one gains an advantage from an order being placed sooner or later than another's

      c) no one gains an advantage from knowing what others are currently offering

      People out there will spoof the curve, getting other people to think there's real demand at this or that point

      You can't spoof the curve: no one sees the curve for the current auction until it's resolved, and they never see anyone's individual curve. Plus, they have to honor any fake supply/demand curve they put in. "Oh, you were just "kidding" about being willing to buy at $1000/share? Too bad, it was accepted since it found buyers."

      As long as people only submit bids for what they think it's worth, decoupled from other estimates on the current auction, they never have to take an offer they didn't explicitly make themselves. The fact people who run with the herd can be deceived is a feature, not a bug.

      And they'll guess that the cost of being called on their bluff is lower than what they make.

      Like above, if they "bluff" that they'd buy at $1,000 when the last trade was at $100, then when the computer collects all bids on the current auction, it sees someone willing to buy for an insanely high price. Since many sellers are willing to sell for more than $100, the computer necessarily matches the offer with *some* other buyer, it's only an issue of how the overpaid share money is distributed between sellers, and what price (between $100 and $1,000) the algorithm declares for the trade.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    21. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      I actually like your idea quite a bit.

      But there are already markets out there where you can't see the size on the bid/offer, just current price. What do the HFTs do? Well, of course they shoot out a few market orders to gauge how much there is.

      Also, if you want to eliminate the first-to-queue issue, you could just do random allocation, ie there's 100 bids, guys comes to sell 10, 10 randoms get it.

      Also, in your system, is there a place for market makers? A small number of actors in the power market (where you have to trade all the time, nature of the power supply) can possibly be accommodated without (I don't know if that's what happens). But a market with large numbers and no requirement to trade might need them. And letting in MMs means letting in guys who are interested in scalping a few ticks off everyone else...

    22. Re:Plus a random fraction of a second. by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Also, in your system, is there a place for market makers?

      Nope. The algorithm can just wait for overlapping supply/demand curves and split the difference wherever the market-clearing trade set is underdetermined.

      As for the HFT, even if they blow their money buying out a whole auction to find out how many there are, so what? Then they're just stuck with overpriced stock. (To tease out the full number of willing sellers, they have to go to the extremes of the supply/demand curve.)

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
  22. What else is new? by aarroneous · · Score: 1

    And this is different from Goldman's flash trading program in that these crooks don't wear suits?

  23. Why Cheat? by ackthpt · · Score: 1

    So much trading is done by program these days - in the big sell off of stock in the banking crisis, if you bought Ford at $0.89 per share OR Dow at ~ $5 per share you'd be sitting pretty right now.

    Curse the holidays! If I hadn't been spending money on gifts and travel I could have made a killing!

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  24. Goldman Sachs anyone? by rsilvergun · · Score: 1, Interesting

    just ban this kind of trading already. The easy way to do it is set a minimum timeframe you're required to hold onto stock before selling.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Goldman Sachs anyone? by blair1q · · Score: 2

      Or create a short-short term tax rate of 90% for anything held for under 12 hours.

    2. Re:Goldman Sachs anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just charge a penny per trade whether its cancelled or not. Hell charge 0.1 penny. That would throttle the HFT traders quite nicely I expect..

    3. Re:Goldman Sachs anyone? by endymon · · Score: 1

      May as well just ban it at that tax rate anyways. So same difference.

  25. The money has to come from somewhere. by khasim · · Score: 2

    If they're allowed "advantages" or whatever, the profits they make have to come from somewhere. I'd rather a system to prevents such and allows more of the profits to go to the smaller investor.

  26. HFT != Wall Street by LordNacho · · Score: 1

    It's not just the major banks that are in HFT. Quite a few of them are literally just guys who said "hey, why the heck can't I just rent a rack, buy some servers, and write some code?". I've met numerous guys who have done this, some as offshoots from banks, some from market making, some rather more green.

    Many of the HFT firms don't even see themselves as financial firms, but rather tech firms. Latency is everything, so their conversations are about technology rather than finance.

    1. Re:HFT != Wall Street by blair1q · · Score: 1

      so their conversations are about technology rather than finance.

      That's the problem.

      They might as well be carpenters talking about nails and whether air-driven or powder-driven nail guns are better, while they're driving nails into the skulls of the public.

  27. Just a crank-up of standard Wall Street technique by sehlat · · Score: 1

    Quoting from the article:

    "substantial risk of creating unfair trading, if used by the wrong people"

    Of course, Goldman Sachs and other Wall Street trading houses regularly front-run client orders, delaying them a bit
    while they get in ahead of the wave. They're still regarded as "the right people" to run our financial system.

  28. Spot on, skippy by sgt_doom · · Score: 2
    Yup, as anyone familiar with The Street knows, the banksters have it sewn up as the usual suspects own all the exchanges and all the clearinghouses.

    Ergo, the same people who own the holding company which owns all the climate exchanges (Climate Exchange PLC) also is the same bunch who owns the InterContental Exchange (ICE) and all its subsidiaries, plus the DTCC, plus Markit Group (which prices all those thousands of categories of pesky credit derivatives [otherwise, they'd be worthless!], and ELX Futures, etc., etc., etc. I think we all get the picture by now.

  29. Scott Adams was right by dbolger · · Score: 1

    Scott Adams (creator of Dilbert) wrote about this just a few weeks ago: http://www.dilbert.com/blog/entry/?EntryID=541.

    1. Re:Scott Adams was right by blair1q · · Score: 1

      His conspiracy one is called front-running, and was one of the first things banned in the markets. But yes, if we can't see a trader's hands moving the shares and the dollars, we have no way to know whose trades he's prioritizing. Except that we do, because it's all logged and traceable to every hand in the chain from investor to specialist.

      His conspiracy two is cute, but the truth is that there's no way the State Department could hide the general nature of foreign relations behind a cover sheet. It's the details that were the real secrets. And while it seems "barely embarassing" to a humorist, to a career diplomat it's shit-your-pants time for your counterparty in a nuclear negotiation to find out you think he smells like a donkey.

  30. News flash by iceaxe · · Score: 1

    Stock trading is a scam!

    d'oh! Why did I not realize this years ago?!?!

    </sarcasm>

    --
    WALSTIB!
  31. Faster-than-human-speed trading should be illegal by davidwr · · Score: 1, Interesting

    For investments available to the average investor OR products available to sophisticated investors which are known to "quickly and significantly" influence the value of products available to the Average Joe:

    Instead all bids should be firm for a certain period of time - say, 30 seconds, and the trade should be delayed as long as the price keeps going up and the market would stay open to allow those trades to complete.

    If the seller needs to sell by a specific time, then anyone bidding in the last 30 seconds will have the right to match the high bid, with the shares going to either the "earliest" bidder who was willing to pay the final price or divided up among all of the "winning" bidders in a predictable, well-defined way.

    In any case, the "market price" wouldn't be defined until the trade completed.

    For products available only to sophisticated investors which don't quickly and significantly affect the value of products you or I might buy, there shouldn't be any "protect the naive investor" rules, just rules to prevent outright fraud.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  32. Hackers cheating on Wall Street? by Esteban · · Score: 1

    I didn't even know they were dating.

  33. Goldman Sacks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Goldman Sacks does it everyday with government approval

  34. This is Good by Chardansearavitriol · · Score: 1

    For way, WAY too long this world, and this country, have followed the cheaper-is-better model. And its not just from one incident, everyone seems to want things done the cheapest. Well, you get a cheaply made home or a power drill cobbled together from harvested parts, and you're probably not going to get the most reliable tool. If you build computer systems cheap, and you make those computers do a whole lot of probably not very well encrypted, and really simply patterned things, far faster than a human could ever model, and then give this system control of basically all the worlds floating wealth, stuffs gonna start going wrong. It used to not matter, back when things would just fall on people. But now that same ethic is losing money. With any luck, we'll learn the lesson and start building things to last again. Just my two cents rant.

    1. Re:This is Good by Shados · · Score: 1

      Except that the financial IT systems are some of the most well funded ones in the world, and are often more sophisticated than anything actual IT companies make. When I worked in the financial industry, it wasn't uncommon for us to buy a multi-million dollar system from a big name IT, look at it, and go "Hrm....we could do better". We'd do something better, then sell the rights back to the highest bidder, and pay them to maintain it for us.

      While thats not the company I worked for, I had connections to Goldman, and my understanding is that their "Business intelligence" system architecture was simply out of this world in term of how sophisticated it was, using technologies you're not going to see anywhere else, state of the art hardware and algorithms that would let you do huge amount of data crunching on transactions that were made fraction of a second ago and extrapolate models in real time. A lot of other big names in the industry were trying to replicate it.

      To add to that, in most large financial institution, the amount of percentage of software developer vs the "normal" employees is extremely high for non-IT companies. Often as much as 20% or more. The systems made there are anything but cheap.

  35. Re:Liuqidity! Liquidity! Liquidity! by DriedClexler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the hackers are netting themselves a bunch of money by out-trading the other high-frequency-traders... good for them. It's not my money they're taking...

    That's what I thought, too -- until Fall '08 hit, and I found out that if one of the big players lose to these guys, the government bails them out (at which point it *is* my money they're taking), revealing as a sham this whole idea that the big guys nobly make risky bets. No, if you're going to be bailed out on the downside, you weren't taking a risk to begin with -- ever.

    In theory, you're right -- but let's bring back the concept of "failing when you're wrong" to Wall Street before blithely dismissing the harm these guys can cause.

    And seriously -- is the tiny bit of extra liquidity REALLY worth the billions these guys sink into HFT?

    --
    Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
  36. Re:Liuqidity! Liquidity! Liquidity! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course, in a casino, the house always wins

    Not true.

    In Ontario, Canada, where the casinos are owned & run by Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation (a corporation owned by the government), they managed to LOSE MONEY.

    Sad. The usual complaint is that how many of the poor & dim-witted waste their money at casinos.

  37. As had already been said... by Genda · · Score: 1

    The story is organic fertilizer. If anything, the problem isn't hackers... the market is now an autonomous exercise in artificial intelligence, and for the most part, beyond human understanding. Don't get me wrong, we can understand parts, and even how some of those parts interact, we simply have no way of comprehending the aggregate and its immense degree of complexity. We have systems milking the tiniest fluctuations in the system sifting out whispers of profit in a hurricane of transactional data. These systems interact with the existing trade ecology and the data dance just keeps growing new harmonics of feedback. Something as ham-fisted as screwing with signal timing would show up like setting off a nuke in nunnery.>/p>

    In fact, the only effective way to hack the system would be to black box the entire system (good luck building that model on anything smaller than a big box at Lawrence Livermore), and messing with a tiny group of nodes in a financially interesting place. You'd need the same kinds of computers network resources as the one's doing the trading, and the model analysis would take tens of thousands of person hours and many millions of dollars. Unless you had some certainty of snatching many billions of dollars (before the existing environment simply networked around you and picked your financial carcass clean in the instant of time it takes the neurotransmitters to cross the synapses in your brain), your time would be better spent selling your IP to Wallstreet and cashing at a significantly lower levels of risk.

    Of course there are adrenaline junkies who might do it for the risk, or the street cred among hackers... good luck on that, and you might want to purchase that chastity belt now so your stay at Club Fed doesn't include unwanted fraternizing. If you're at all interested in the current state of the networks that carry money check out this months WIRED article on AI, its truly enlightening. Oh, and for those who think they could walk away from hacking the financial network, just remember the people you're playing with... you'd be lucky not to end up an inventory of parts at a Mumbai transplant hospital.

  38. Re:Liuqidity! Liquidity! Liquidity! by jfengel · · Score: 2

    It wasn't the HFT they got hammered on. It was other investment strategies, ones with a lot less transparency. Worse, they were much longer term: we're still figuring out who owns all those bad debts.

    As far as I can tell, the HFT is harmless. Though I'm sure they'll find a way to prove me wrong on that.

  39. Yes, but ... by Ignatius · · Score: 2

    ... moving from continuous trading to iterated auctions merely replaces one problem by another: While now you want to act first, in the auction, you want to act last. In any case, he who gets to know the bids of the others sooner and can place his own bids faster will have an advantage. The only solution would be to keep the bids secret - but who do you want to entrust with this job? And how would you keep the bids secret before they enter the system? After all, your bank or online broker has to check your orders to verify e.g. if the bid is covered by your account etc.

    ignatius

    1. Re:Yes, but ... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Closed bids. Nobody sees the bids for the interval until it's over and everything settles. One way is a standardized data structure. To place the bid, you submit a sha256 hash of the structured data to prove you made it. Then the quantum ends and you send in the matching structured data.

  40. Re:Liuqidity! Liquidity! Liquidity! by blair1q · · Score: 1

    Fake liquidity created by machinery that is crocking the prices using irrational algorithms is not good.

    Being screwed in 5 nanoseconds is not preferable to getting a fair price after 2 days of waiting.

  41. Stop using desperate magazines for sources by Relayman · · Score: 1

    Magazines are dying. They're desperate. When you see this story in the Wall Street Journal, let me know. When the source is InfoWorld, ComputerWorld and any other World, I'm not going to even bother reading the article.

    --
    If I used a sig over again, would anyone notice?
  42. Re:Faster-than-human-speed trading should be illeg by blair1q · · Score: 1

    Don't limit it to Average Joe trading vehicles.

    The exotic derivatives that are traded up in the billionaire boys' club can easily result in the decimation of financial institutions on which the public depends for the solidity of all finance.

    This last time it cost us $700 billion and we still took a doubling of unemployment, and 90% of Average Joes still don't have the first clue what a "credit-default swap" really is.

    Make every trade as though it's humans doing business with humans. Then you'll have a fair market.

  43. Old news. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Financial institutes have known delays in data to be problematic. That why they have Endace probes etc.

    Endace can measure down to 7.5 nano seconds. I'm sure if a "hacker" starts injecting packets to make a "several microsecond (one microsecond = 1000 nanoseconds) delay, it wont slip under the radar.

  44. Buy my product! Fact-free Advertisement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know a lot about this too.
        Whatever you think about high-frequency trading, this article seems silly both by the absence of any facts (people "may" do this, "can" do that) and the push to one vendor's product. Yes please, how are you exactly going to insert packets between me and nasdaq? nyse? Do you know how these networks are configured? Or is this just made up? Even if I could delay a competitor by a single microsecond, how exactly would I make money? And how many thousands of years would it take to make "millions" profit by doing so? Or is this part just made up? Do you know anything about which latencies are relevent to trading and which are not? A nano-second, is this relevant? A millisecond? A second? Any fact-based clue at all?
    And the article scares about microseconds impact while approvingly quoting MIT researchers talking about speed of light issues in the 10s or more of MILLI-seconds. To talk about how high-frequency traders benefit from knowing speed of light constraints in locating data centers appropriately (and vis-a-vis an international route not less) is, in 2011, as relevant urging high frequency traders to learn about these new-fangled things called "computers". 10ms is 4 orders of magnitude more than 1us - kind of different, huh?
    You want a more realistic exploit, made up from mere speculation, but far far far more likely and credible while remaining junk: If "hackers" could introduce a bug into the linux kernel which punishes other peoples' orders (and Wall St runs on Linux, 99%, so you are good there), and they had a billion dollars of capital, and they could get away with it for a year, they COULD (I say, COULD, read this as "are now making" only if you are illiterate) make several thousands of dollars!

  45. FUD by alexmin · · Score: 1

    TFA failed to describe what that 'side-channel attach' is. But it was full of bitching about how tough is to measure latencies in network transmissions. Well, any competent network engineer knows that.

    So what is author is going to cry about next? Tcp FIN_WAIT2 state?

  46. The options are a noncash asset by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    I wonder if the mortgage company would take the options in a barter arrangement. Okay, maybe not; sell the options elsewhere - money is known for getting around inefficiencies in the barter system

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    1. Re:The options are a noncash asset by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I was working at a certain, ummm, "Suisse" bank, they did exactly these transactions all the time; the bank simply takes the options and lends money based on them; if the options go up in value, you get some extra percentage of your money, and if not, you don't lose, since the loan is secured by the options.

    2. Re:The options are a noncash asset by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      Hmm, them as collateral would be another way to do it.
      I'm sure the bank commissions would be better than discarding them. Everybody wins, the question is which parties win how much?

      Seems like the options would be of comparable liquidity to the rest of the market.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  47. Re:Liuqidity! Liquidity! Liquidity! by Tom · · Score: 2

    Liquidity IS good, and in the end, I don't see how this is doing anything but provide more of it.

    It's simple, really. If they make a profit, they take money out of the system. Since the system doesn't generate money, that money is missing somewhere else. Or in other words: Someone else has to pay it. If you think that someone is the other high-speed traders, I have a bridge that you might be interested in.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  48. Vanguard by Frankie70 · · Score: 1

    The simplest secret about Wall Street is that the average investor can forgo using a trading firm, and just invest in an index fund instead (like the S&P). Those funds have very low fees, and require zero understanding about Wall Street. They go up as the economy gets better, they go down as it doesn't. And less than 20% of firms out there can *BEAT* the S&P, meaning that 80% actually do worse. In addition, they charge higher fees. So if you throw your money into the index fund, you don't have to know anything, and you do just as well as 80%+ of the firms out there, and keep the fees they'd charge you to just meet the same ROR in your pocket.

    Sadly, you'll never hear about this on the Street, because it would ruin their whole scam.

    If you consider the fact that Vanguard which specializes in index funds manages 1.4 trillion in assets & is one of the biggest mutual fund companies, I think people have already heard about this.

  49. Dupe by Keybase · · Score: 1

    I've read this before on Slashdot months or years ago. Dupe.

    --
    Do what is right. You will please some and astonish the rest. --Mark Twain
  50. Ok,wait a sec, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...we have "hackers" allegedly skimming off of transactions being made by people who are effectively gambling with other people's money/ livelihoods, is that it? So thieves stealing from other thieves, more or less? Oh, that's right, it affects the entire national economy, good when it's you making the millions, bad when it's someone NOT you. Of course, now I see.

    Thpppt! I call B.S. on the entire process. Make 'em gamble in Vegas, where they belong. Collapsing entire national economies due to the transferral/ wagering of overpriced pieces of paper and an expectation of "getting lucky" desperately needs some effective checks and balances built into the system. The ones supposedly in there now AREN'T working. Even worse that they're doing it electronically.

  51. Super Computer market dies... by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    You do realize that a big buyer for massive computers is the "investment" "industry" so the can perform faster and faster trades-- apparently to the point where the network transaction speed is enough to screw up their scheme. The solution will be to update the computers to work around such problems and probably firms developing machines to mess with the others-- a cyberwar game going on in addition to the existing super computer games going on already...

    Naturally, parent is correct; and the game needs to be able to be regulated and policed. What we have now is a casino instead of a capital market where they can drive 300mph and the cops are on rusty bicycles. The dirivatives needs to DIE! its a scam market and it contributes nothing significant to the greater society; furthermore, its YOUNG and hasn't been around in its present incarnations for that long.

    1. Re:Super Computer market dies... by trout007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your analogy to Wall St. as a Casino is correct. There are two sides. The speculator and the investor. The speculator is like the customer that has a plan on how they are going to enter the casino and win. They have betting patterns and card counting and other tricks. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it works for a long time. Eventually the odds catch up to most people and they lose. The Casino itself is the investor. They are willing to deal with short term gains and losses with the knowledge that overall their investment will return small steady gains. It's the same with the stock market. Over the long term index funds do go up because companies become more valuable due to growth and inflation. If you day trade or even buy individual stocks you are speculating that you can beat the house. It is only for speculators that these market manipulations cause problems. If you are a long term investor like the Casino you don't even notice the small ups and downs.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  52. Isn't it really just gambling? by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    Once a company publicly issues shares and sells them into the stock market. Couldn't they theoretically, now that they have the money more or less just ignore the share and let the traders gamble with each other over press releases and quarterly reports?

    Once a share is in the wild, it's value might be measured based on the performance of the company that issued it, but there is in fact no REAL value to the share, it's strictly perceived value. It's not like you can use it as legal tender. You'd have to find someone else to gamble on the share and hope the company who issued it publishes interesting enough stories.. I mean releases that someone else would want to gamble on the company doing something else that's interesting. But, even if the value of the share plummeted into a pile of burning ash, the company still has the cash they got from selling the share in the first place. That's why when you go public, you hire a group of professional gamblers to "stabilize" the share... or more effectively, attempt to get as much money from the shares as possible by exploiting demand at it's high points.

    So, what's really happening is that the government sponsored casinos (known as the stock markets) are simply working the same was Vegas does and attempting to get better at catching cheaters that might scare away the other gamblers.

    What I don't understand is, why doesn't someone just start up a gambling service online that doesn't require interfacing with the government. You can trade virtual shares and the gambling service can issue them and profit from them. Then people can track them and trade them through those services.

    I'm not a market genius, but if I understand it correctly, the "Share price" is not actually the value of the share. It's just the price the share sold for last time. The real value of the share should either be either the price the next purchaser is willing to pay for the share or the price the next seller is willing to sell the share for. There doesn't appear to be any actual direct correlation between the value of a share and the value of the company. Often, the share is simply only as valuable as the press the company is receiving.

  53. Scaremoungering crap by greap · · Score: 1

    The summary is missing the words "could possibly". There is no evidence that this has ever happened or any suggestion that there is a security hole that would let them do this in the first place.

    Also the original source is wrong about monitoring. One of the reasons to pay $10k+ a year for 1u is that the bandwidth and latency to the trading platform is extremely low, there are multiple systems in place which monitor both sides of the exchange and validate each other’s stats, this is a fairly significant portion of the system - knowing how long ago news was released and how long it will take to make a trade based on that news is what makes HFT effective, monitoring is not an afterthought but is pretty much the core of the applications. In addition simply because of how HFT works when the “hackers” started gaming the system the other systems would stop trading until a human restarted them which would significantly limit the ability to exploit a security hole.

  54. To the detriment of everyone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "the process to reap millions of dollars to the detriment of everyone else"

    Isn't that what "playing" the market is all about? Buying low and selling high for maximum profit, which benefits one person and one person only. I believe the original idea behind stocks was to provide a company funds so that they had money with which to grow and then the income generated by that growth would be distributed amongst those who believed in it... a bit of an "investment" in the traditional sense. There wouldn't be as much of a need for real-time trading because who needs that unless they are hoping to get the absolute most profit. And where does that profit come from? What kind of affect does it have on the companies whose stock is fluctuating?

  55. Re:Just a crank-up of standard Wall Street techniq by thijsh · · Score: 1

    Someone mod this up... it was the most essential bit of the article and parent got the quote right!

  56. This is as old as Rome: Front running (+solution) by CatoNine · · Score: 1

    I've worked in a company that makes online trading software, and this kind of abuse is as old as stock exchanges,
    also without high speed networks. It's called "front running":

    1 - Customer sees stock offer X at nice price of, say $ 90.
    2 - Customer ask broker: "Buy X for me at the *current best* price"
    3 - Broker quickly buys X at $90 for *himself*, the next best offer for X on the exchange is now $95.
    4 - Broker then sells *own* X to Customer for the current best market offer of $95
         >>> And steals $5 profit without taking any risk.

    De prevent this the Customer should do two things:
    A - Always specify the price at which you want to buy.
    B - Check the counterparty you are buying from.
         If you notice that your 'nice price' is often gone just after you have placed your order, something is wrong...

  57. sell more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no doubt his company can sell us the bit of technology to provide the antidote...

  58. Can't compare with the FOREX Scammologies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    By far the biggest unregulated trading industry is FOREX and it's rife with abuse by the big end of town. "Stop-hunting" is the name of the game particularly favored by industry (bank etc) traders at London and New York open. You have a well worked out trade underway and they simply spike the price to take your stop-loss out and shoot you down. The timing and the precision of the spike-strike identifies it as gamesmanship stop-hunting by these creeps. They compete with each other. Not only does it cause unwarranted losses, it distorts the unregulated FOREX market completely. You not only have to contend with technicals and fundamentals plus news, you also have to widen your stops beyond comfort tpo avoid their surgical strikes. Because the industry is totally unregulated they can do it with impunity. Brokers and industry insiders won't discuss it. It's just one of the FOREX industry's dirty little secrets for cheating the individual.

  59. I call bunk by onyxruby · · Score: 1

    I find this story to be one of scare mongering that simply wouldn't pass muster for most exchanges.

    I've worked with some of the machines on stock exchange trading floors to deal with problems from trading delays. The guys who support these machines in a daily basis know every nuance of the systems from a load perspective. They know these machines far better than almost any server admin I've worked with.

    Quite simply put, if there was a delay approaching 100 ms it was actively watched for and flagged. At 200 ms people were talking vocally about the issue, at 300 ms people were shouting, if something worked it's way up to 400 ms the room was screaming. To put it quite literally there are teams of people that do nothing but /very/ actively watch for slight delays in trades as those delays can cost millions of dollars per fraction of second.

    This concern is why almost every stock exchange in the world is surrounded by office buildings that are dominated by data centers, just to physically shorten the distance to the exchange.

    Incidentally my involvement came from setting up server monitoring software to look for delays like these. We then automated certain types of responses (if x consumes 15% of CPU than we do Y kind of thing). To put it quite literally, a delay such as what is proposed in the article would only ever happen once - and be taken as a glitch or the affected (and magically unfixable hacked system) taken offline within 10 minutes when it could not be restored to normal operating parameters.

    I call bunk, as the machines that do the trading are the most actively monitored and arguably best known by their administrator staffs in the world.

  60. Re:Liuqidity! Liquidity! Liquidity! by jfengel · · Score: 1

    The money that they are taking is in the no-man's-land between buyer and seller. A sale happens only when the buyer agrees to buy for at least as much as the seller demands. The delta doesn't belong to either of them: both have made a commitment to buy/sell at a certain price that they are presumably satisfied with.

    Since neither of them has a claim to the money, it could go anywhere. You could re-write the rules to split the difference, or some other algorithm, and eliminate the arbitrage opportunity, but it doesn't: the gap remains. The arbitrageurs have found a place where both buyer and seller are happy with the gap, and nobody misses the money that they're taking. They'd rather have it, of course, but they don't even know about it unless they play the arbitrage game themselves.

    Which they can't really do if they're on either the buying or selling side. If they are, they can combine the arbitraging and buy/sell into one step, which just means plain old trading.

  61. Big assumption about FIFO markets by Ruzty · · Score: 1

    The article is clearly FUD produced by a software vendor for a network monitoring tool. It makes a huge assumption that the the matching system is completely FIFO and all you need to do to "win" is be the first one there. Simply delaying the competition is not enough to skim the money off the top.

    Matching algorithms are not straight FIFO. Orders hitting the books or on the books are processed in batches and iterated over in various formulas for distributing the matched trades that include priority for market makers, allocation to quantity levels at the top of the price book, round robin allocation to all orders in a batch and allocation to hidden quantity orders which refresh only when the displayed quantity is exhausted. That is only a subset of the way trades are potentially allocated in a market besides "I got here first. I call DIBS!".

    Exchanges are neither naive enough nor so simplistic that injection of minor latency against competitor's networks is physically possible or possible to isolate the delay to only impact others beside the imagined beneficiary. Combine this with the over simplification of trade matching the article assumes pure FIFO and the assumptive FUD becomes very apparent.

    --
    The Master (Angelo Rossitto) in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, "Not shit, energy!"
  62. Re:Liuqidity! Liquidity! Liquidity! by Tom · · Score: 1

    In the textbook, you're right.

    But in reality, these people trade enough volume to make the markets. They don't take a gap that nobody misses. One simple trick is that they can manage to pick up best offers faster than regular market traders, who are then left with the "resale" from the high-frequency traders. They increase the gap in order to make their margin.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org