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Catching Exam Cheats With a Spectrum Analyzer

angry tapir writes "Police in Taiwan have used a set of spectrum analyzers to catch at least three people suspected of cheating on an exam by monitoring them for mobile phone signals. Officers used three FSH4 analyzers specially configured by the German manufacturer Rohde & Schwarz to monitor an exam in south Taiwan for prospective government workers."

210 comments

  1. Expensive cheats by plover · · Score: 1, Troll

    Wow, those R&S analyzers are some serious tools! I was just looking at frequency analyzers over at DealExtreme, where they have a dirt-cheap handheld model that sniffs out cellular frequencies for $60. Or they could have hung a cell jammer in the room for about a hundred. Or if they really thought they had to have the fancy gear, they probably could have hired in a contractor who would have sniffed around for maybe $300 per hour, and known what he was doing.

    Was it was really worth the $40,000 they probably spent on them?

    Oh, that's right. It's a government organization. Spending money is in their job description.

    --
    John
    1. Re:Expensive cheats by Rivalz · · Score: 1

      I imagine the gov is more interested in easily catching cheaters, not preventing them.
      And it probably likes the idea of catching innocent people who just appear to be cheating by circumstantial evidence.

    2. Re:Expensive cheats by Rivalz · · Score: 1

      wonder what would happen if i placed a burner phone under the seat of someone i hate and set a web service to send me daily text messages at specific times.
      I can get stock quotes at just the right times if I want.

      The more monitored we become the easier it is to let the law screw with people you dont like or need out of the way.

    3. Re:Expensive cheats by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Was it was really worth the $40,000 they probably spent on them? Oh, that's right. It's a government organization. Spending money is in their job description.

      Maybe the officials in charge of finding cheaters cheated on their math tests.

    4. Re:Expensive cheats by s73v3r · · Score: 2

      I would imagine that simply having a cell phone signal near you would not be enough to qualify you as a cheater. More likely, they used the presence of the cell phone signal to investigate further for other signs of cheating.

    5. Re:Expensive cheats by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      That because if they don't spend all the money, their budget will shrink. Like hungry baby birds, you have to constantly scream for more.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    6. Re:Expensive cheats by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 2

      Wow, those R&S analyzers are some serious tools! I was just looking at frequency analyzers over at DealExtreme, where they have a dirt-cheap handheld model that sniffs out cellular frequencies for $60. Or they could have hung a cell jammer in the room for about a hundred. Or if they really thought they had to have the fancy gear, they probably could have hired in a contractor who would have sniffed around for maybe $300 per hour, and known what he was doing.

      Was it was really worth the $40,000 they probably spent on them?

      Oh, that's right. It's a government organization. Spending money is in their job description.

      You were doing fine right up until you pulled that number out of your ass and segued into an anti-government rant. TFA doesn't say it cost 40k to do this.

      --
      Drill baby drill - on Mars
    7. Re:Expensive cheats by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Cell Jammers are normally illegal.

      A far better idea is to make a test center room that is a faraday cage. Now you are blocking everything, not just cell phones.

    8. Re:Expensive cheats by Zipo+Bibrok+5e8 · · Score: 2

      The FSH4 specified on TFA is not cheap. Add custom programming and you're probably well over $40,000 for three of them even without typical government contract bloat.

      http://www.google.com/search?q=FSH4&tbs=shop:1,p_ord:pd

      --
      -- The Brory Stool Co.: We accidentally the best stools from behind seven proxies, since 2009.
    9. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was it was really worth the $40,000 they probably spent on them?

      Oh, that's right. It's a government organization. Spending money is in their job description.

      If they use them for 5-10 years, the cost is amortized to less than what is probably spent on office supplies in a given year.

    10. Re:Expensive cheats by RobertM1968 · · Score: 1

      Wow, those R&S analyzers are some serious tools! I was just looking at frequency analyzers over at DealExtreme, where they have a dirt-cheap handheld model that sniffs out cellular frequencies for $60. Or they could have hung a cell jammer in the room for about a hundred. Or if they really thought they had to have the fancy gear, they probably could have hired in a contractor who would have sniffed around for maybe $300 per hour, and known what he was doing.

      Was it was really worth the $40,000 they probably spent on them?

      Oh, that's right. It's a government organization. Spending money is in their job description.

      What's worse is this... I've never cheated on an exam, but if it were me in class, I guess I'd be suspected of being guilty of such. Something to do with owning a smartphone that's always sending and receiving data (besides the normal stuff, it checks my servers to make sure they are online and running every 3 minutes, and does a variety of similar things).

      I guess in reality, they only proved that people didnt turn off their cell phones. As circumstantial evidence, assuming that rule was clearly disseminated, I guess it is sufficient evidence to "prove" cheating.

    11. Re:Expensive cheats by msauve · · Score: 1

      "I would imagine that simply having a cell phone signal near you would not be enough to qualify you as a cheater."

      No, it wouldn't. At most, it means there were cell phone signals in proximity. Could be as simple as someone with a smartphone they forgot to turn off, which checked for email (or was pushed email) during the exam. They were supposed to be off, but simply being on doesn't rise to the level of "cheating," which is a pretty strong accusation.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    12. Re:Expensive cheats by nomadic · · Score: 1

      And, of course, it will cost another $40,000 to run the same test?

    13. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And, when drunk driving laws were first introduced, simply having a BAC above a certain number was not enough to guarantee a DUI conviction- they had to actually prove you were impaired.

      But then MADD pushed to make it a 'per se' law- meaning just having a Blood Alcohol Content above a certain number was enough to make you guilty. Doesn't matter if you are a hardcore drinker and .090 barely makes you buzzed- you're illegal. Meanwhile, that 110-pound girl over there who's never drank before and is obviously crocked out of her gourd? She's only .075, and is perfectly legal.

      The point being- laws which start of well meaning, often are twisted into draconian parodies of themselves. It would not surprise me in the slightest if the rule against 'cheating on a test with a cell phone' morphs into 'having a cell phone during a test'. After all, maybe you erased the incriminatory text messages before handing it over, or maybe you were about to cheat....

    14. Re:Expensive cheats by petermgreen · · Score: 2

      Yeah they aren't cheap, the low end of the prices listed on that google search seem to tally with what the base price would have been (I had to work the education discount backwards to figure out the base price) for ordering direct from R&S (we bought a FSH8 recently at uni).

      No idea if the police would have got a discount , what the custom setup actually consisted of (it may well have just been setting up the right frequency ranges) or whether they bought any extra options (extra options can seriously add to the cost but i'd think the base model hardware would be sufficiant for this job).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    15. Re:Expensive cheats by fsterman · · Score: 1

      They could have just borrowed it from another governmental organization...

      --
      Is there anything better than clicking through Microsoft ads on Slashdot?
    16. Re:Expensive cheats by ogl_codemonkey · · Score: 2

      At our exams, it was always clearly explained in the handbook, in the starting announcements, and on the cover page of the top sheet on each desk's papers that phones and electronic devices are to be on the desk, screen up, and turned off; and that if you're found to be violating that rule it will be considered as evidence of 'possible cheating, or attempting to do so'.

      It'd be difficult to misinterpret that.

      Do any relevant institutions /not/ have similar rules and procedures?

    17. Re:Expensive cheats by ogl_codemonkey · · Score: 1

      Cell Jammers are normally illegal.

      A far better idea is to make a test center room that is a faraday cage. Now you are blocking everything, not just cell phones.

      Everything outside of the room - it wouldn't stop (or detect, as in this case) cheating between examinees.

    18. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they want to spend more money punishing the cheaters rather than having more people who actually know a lot about the topic they wrote their test on?
      Sounds reasonable.

    19. Re:Expensive cheats by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      This was a test for an exam for a job, not a school exam. Why would you hate someone you just met enough to sabotage their exam?

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    20. Re:Expensive cheats by RobertM1968 · · Score: 1

      Do any relevant institutions /not/ have similar rules and procedures?

      Dunno, we were still using stone tablets when I went to college.

    21. Re:Expensive cheats by X0563511 · · Score: 2

      You'd be better off having something else monitor the servers and push an alert to you on a status change...

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    22. Re:Expensive cheats by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2

      Excuse me, but how do you reach a cell phone tower to share data from inside a Faraday cage?

      Built-in walkie talkie systems might be able to connect, but most such in modern cell phones are simply free use of the local cell system for other subscribers. They still require the cell towers.

    23. Re:Expensive cheats by ogl_codemonkey · · Score: 1

      I was thinking something a lot easier, and more convenient for a bunch of examinees - like the peer-to-peer Wi-Fi or Bluetooth on their phones.

    24. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Excuse me, but how do you reach a cell phone tower to share data from inside a Faraday cage?

      Built-in walkie talkie systems might be able to connect, but most such in modern cell phones are simply free use of the local cell system for other subscribers. They still require the cell towers.

      My phone has WiFi, and with the proper motivation I could smuggle a router in my anus.

    25. Re:Expensive cheats by ebs16 · · Score: 1

      Bluetooth

    26. Re:Expensive cheats by CaseyRM13 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because they're competing with you for a job you both want? Doesn't need to be personal. Plenty of reasons to try and ruin someone.

    27. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not with the tiny fold-out desks they had at my school in all of the lecture halls, which were barely large enough for a sheet of paper.

      It's bad enough sharing the space between pencil, eraser, and calculator, but if I had to keep a cell phone on my desk too it'd probably get knocked off by me or someone else.

    28. Re:Expensive cheats by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Well, if you prevent them, then they won't try. The problem with both methods is that the cheaters tend to adjust and find new ways of doing it.

    29. Re:Expensive cheats by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "..which checked for email (or was pushed email) during the exam. .."

      Mmm, getting pushed an email with the answers to the questions is what one would expect from a cheater, no?

    30. Re:Expensive cheats by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      Additionally, forgetting to switch a device off during exams could be considered as 'making available' a cheating possibility and should be punished to the greatest extent.

    31. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They aren't quite that expensive, but you're right, a general-purpose RF spectrum analyzer isn't the right tool for this particular job.

    32. Re:Expensive cheats by ppanon · · Score: 1

      It depends. If it's a police entrance exam or an entrance exam for a similarly easily exploited position of trust then, yes, it may very well be preferable to catch people who have a propensity for poor moral decisions like cheating, rather than keep them honest for the exam only so that they can abuse the position later.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    33. Re:Expensive cheats by ogl_codemonkey · · Score: 1

      Obviously you're not required to - you also have the option of leaving it in your bag, locker, or home.

    34. Re:Expensive cheats by plover · · Score: 2

      You were doing fine right up until you pulled that number out of your ass and segued into an anti-government rant. TFA doesn't say it cost 40k to do this.

      TFA didn't have to quote a price. My estimate was based on publicly available information from the marketplace, and was certainly not "pulled out of my ass." My methods are very repeatable, and I suggest you replicate them yourself. I googled for "FSH4", then clicked "Shopping", then sorted by "price: high to low", figuring these units would float to the top of anything else numbered "FSH4", and they certainly did. New unit prices on the set of results ranged from $17,882.25 to $9,220.00, with a median of about $15,000. (The site with the $9,220 price included a "Pricing for U.S. customers only" warning.) I didn't figure they'd get them at the lowball price or at a significant discount, and I didn't figure they'd pay the top price either. The article did mention the manufacturer providing custom programming via "special order," but I did not add money to the estimate because if they were buying three from the manufacturer they may have received some custom work thrown in as part of the price.

      And you should also note that I used the word "probably." It's not like I have access to the Taiwanese government's invoices, and could provide the exact figure. "Probably" can imply many things; in this case I placed $40,000 at the center of a rough bell curve of pricing. I think I'm within a standard deviation of how much an American company would pay, but I wouldn't say I have the same confidence in how much a Taiwanese police department would have spent.

      Five minutes with Google provided enough data to get a reasonable estimate, and I did it the same way I start shopping for any expensive device.

      Since these were purchased by the police, I suspect they may have other practical uses for them in mind. They probably weren't purchased only to catch a handful of cheaters, and then to be tossed aside. They may hope that a few public arrests will serve as deterrents for future cheaters, in which case this might be money well spent. They may plan to use them to detect other criminals. I don't know that, either. I just know that when I googled them I discovered these are some really expensive pieces of kit, and way out of my "casual hobbyist" range.

      --
      John
    35. Re:Expensive cheats by monkyyy · · Score: 0

      u cheat a little to much, may i suggest getting a copy of the test before hand instead

      --
      warning pointless sig
    36. Re:Expensive cheats by Dayze!Confused · · Score: 5, Informative

      I live in Taiwan, and at any exam that I have ever attended there is one simple rule. If your cellphone even as much as vibrates while you are taking a test you are disqualified at that moment. We are told this beforehand and are recommended to turn off our cellphones.

      --
      "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
    37. Re:Expensive cheats by arivanov · · Score: 1

      No it was not because the proof from them is still inconclusive as they do not decrypt the network traffic. All that is clear is that the 3 people in question have used cell phones. This breaks the exam rules, but it is not conclusive if that was to cheat or simply a case of acute jobsian fondleslab addiction.

      If you want to detect if people are cheating the best approach are kits which femtocell manufacturers sell on the side to security agencies worldwide. These pretend to be the cellular network and allow the security forces to snoop on all comms from the handset. The cost is on-par with Rode-Shwartz - in the 30K+ range. The difference however is that you get proper evidence admissible in court as a result.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    38. Re:Expensive cheats by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      It's Taiwan's gov't, which may not be as bloated, and probably where the product is made, easily sold through the back door to the govt.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    39. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a troll if I've ever seen one. No officer or anyone for that matter would first stop someone driving badly, then find out they are buzzed and can't handle it and let them back into a car and drive away.

    40. Re:Expensive cheats by tibit · · Score: 1

      He's not a troll. The submitters and the test givers were had by R&S's marketing department.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    41. Re:Expensive cheats by xded · · Score: 1

      This is common practice also in Italy. Police is usually monitoring RF channels even during driving license written tests.

      However it's still beyond me why someone should try to cheat in such a test: you're likely to spend more time/money cheating than studying. Maybe it's just because someone believes having been able to cheat makes you cool...

    42. Re:Expensive cheats by tibit · · Score: 1

      A lot of those devices are out of support in 5 years, and govt labs usually replace them at that time.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    43. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wireless networking

    44. Re:Expensive cheats by Anynomous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Being in anticipation of delivery of a desktop SA with some options, I initially got some buyer's remorse and lust after seeing the FSH4. Until I found out the price. With similar options and performance levels the FSH4 is 3 times more expensive than the equipment I ordered.

      --
      I'm not a coward by any name.
    45. Re:Expensive cheats by jaggeh · · Score: 1

      In ireland they give us lockers to lock all our personal belongings into before we take the test for our learners permits.

      --
      I would give everything i own for a little bit more.
    46. Re:Expensive cheats by JohannesJ · · Score: 1

      Right you are: They’re Not so smart they dont need a spectrum analyzer, just an tiny antenna . Short piece of wire ,RF Bandpass filter driving a microwave detector diode , rectify/filter to DC and drive ammeter and or Buzzer , there are Such filters already built in the front end Receiver part of many cellphones as well and there for the taking Taiwan not so smart at all An Sa (spectrum analyzer) requires setup something many police mentalities lack My solution above is simple and up close and personal, usable by anyone ,I'd also add a DC integrator to mine

    47. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Roadblocks.

    48. Re:Expensive cheats by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Good point. Is bluetooth and wi-fi peer-to-peer in the latest smartphones? I admit mine is not the latest. I've actually not seen it built-in.

      I could see issues with laptop communications linked to bluetooth audio devices, just as I can see issues with class notes stored in calculators. And today, there's live access to Wikipedia for _everything_ as a problem in tests.

    49. Re:Expensive cheats by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I'm wondering if it is legal to use a jammer from inside a faraday cage? That would prevent blutoothing, wifi, and anything else which doesn't rely on having an external cell signal.

    50. Re:Expensive cheats by msauve · · Score: 1

      What's your point? Yes, cheating can be done that way. No, your roommate's text, asking you to pick up beer on the way home isn't cheating. The mere presence of cell phone signals does not prove cheating.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    51. Re:Expensive cheats by GooberToo · · Score: 2

      Your post is a troll. People get testing all the time after being pulled over for completely unrelated incidents. And that's completely ignoring road blocks specifically set up to look for people who have been drinking.

      The simple fact is, MAD is an organization who actively seeks to justify their own existence. They see their primary goal as to punish anyone who drinks. They are now pushing to create a new category for drink, who would also be punishable by law, for what would equate to having one drink.

      MAD is an organization which seeming had great ideals when they started but sadly, the world would be a better place without them. They've completely outlived their purpose and are now looking to destroy as many lives as possible; that is, for anyone who dares have even one drink.

    52. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never understood why people feel the need to bring cell phones into exams. Just leave all electronic devices at home if you know there's a written exam on today's schedule. Worked for me.

    53. Re:Expensive cheats by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      In UK exams you have to leave you mobile, laptop or whatever outside the exam room. It saves a lot of bother, if your phone goes off in the exam, you're expelled for cheating (or should be).

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    54. Re:Expensive cheats by coolmadsi · · Score: 2

      When I was at Uni (in the UK), we were reccommended to not only turn phones off, but remove the battery, because in the past they have had phones that were turned off, turn on by themselves and start beeping because the owner had a repeating alarm set (some phones auto-turn on for the alarm if they are off)

      I was in an exam once at Uni and somones phone (it was in their bag at the side of the room) did start beeping for whatever reason; one of the invigilators just picked up the entire bag and took it outside and left it there, still beeping, but we couldn't hear it from the exam hall.

    55. Re:Expensive cheats by Jorth · · Score: 1

      We had the same rules from College through University here (UK). So that's 1999 onwards, some preferred to have the phone on your desk, off, face up. Others were happy with it being off in a bag underneath your desk. Or if you didn't take a bag I often had my phone just on the floor under my chair, simple and easy and no way I could be cheating with it.
      Never heard a phone go off in an exam to be honest, when it's your future on the line why risk it?

    56. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They also have wifi, bluetooth, and apps.

    57. Re:Expensive cheats by BarefootClown · · Score: 1

      No, you don't understand: he's special, so the rules need to contain an exception for him. Rather than following the same simple-to-comprehend directions as everybody else, he needs to be provided with proctors who can screen his incoming messages and pass them along to him. Because, you know, if his server goes down while he's taking the test, he's going to have to call a time-out to go fix it and resume the test when he's done.

      --

      "Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
      --Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca

    58. Re:Expensive cheats by Defenestrar · · Score: 1

      There is an exception to the Fourth Amendment when it comes to DUI investigations. That is why it is legal to have DUI checkpoints where they stop all traffic and perform whichever manner of sobriety test / breath check that they intend. For more information (with a strong point of view - but the information is there regardless of which side you agree with) read this.

      If you could make it a public safety issue (i.e. chemical plant inspector certification exam) and demonstrate there was no better method of investigation, then your fears - while maybe justified - would likely have no bearing in a US court. How this applies to laws in Taiwan - I have no idea, but the ideological part of me generally likes to think of the US Bill of Rights to be an outline of some inalienable human rights and thus not subject to government permission.

    59. Re:Expensive cheats by plover · · Score: 1

      They may be buying high quality or certified precision gear in order to meet guidelines for quality of evidence. I don't know how it would fly in Taiwan, but if the cops busted someone using your homebuilt buzzer device here in America, the first thing the defense lawyer would do is crap all over it. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, these bits of bubblegum and string were just wired together in a scare trick to get my client to falsely cooperate with this sham of an investigation. My client was victimized just to manipulate public opinion."

      In an American court, the standard procedure is to enter a top-of-the-line scientific device as evidence, then bring in an engineer in a white lab coat to swear under oath that this device was properly calibrated according to factory specifications, and used according to published directions. Juries trust engineers in white lab coats.

      It's sad, but whether or not your homebuilt device would work is almost irrelevant.

      --
      John
    60. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's your point? Yes, cheating can be done that way. No, your roommate's text, asking you to pick up beer on the way home isn't cheating. The mere presence of cell phone signals does not prove cheating.

      But if the text reads:

      Hey bro bring some

      • beer
      • apples
      • cabbage
      • beer
      • beer
      • apples
      • ...
    61. Re:Expensive cheats by orphiuchus · · Score: 1

      They do the same thing here in Arizona.

    62. Re:Expensive cheats by orphiuchus · · Score: 1

      Why on earth is that a troll? Sucky mods.

    63. Re:Expensive cheats by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 2

      Kind of impractical. I have a brother in law who has a faraday cage at Intel and its quite large, but most testing centers I've been into (even smallish ones) are bigger and even then - this faraday cage was quite expensive.

    64. Re:Expensive cheats by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      All that is clear is that the 3 people in question have used cell phones.

      I'm guessing that, not only were they told that having an active cell phone in the exam room would disqualify them, but that the presence of said cell phone wouldn't automatically peg them as cheaters, but would invite a more thorough investigation.

    65. Re:Expensive cheats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a nice way to describe a corrupt US Justice system that equates quality of evidence with the cost of equipment to obtain it.,

    66. Re:Expensive cheats by sexconker · · Score: 1

      That's a troll if I've ever seen one. No officer or anyone for that matter would first stop someone driving badly, then find out they are buzzed and can't handle it and let them back into a car and drive away.

      I've seen exactly this many times around UC Santa Barbara.

    67. Re:Expensive cheats by plover · · Score: 1

      Why "corrupt"? A defense lawyer's job is to refute the evidence that might implicate his client. Without legal representation, cops could jail whoever they want with impunity.

      If the cops did use a home-built detector to find the cell phones, the prosecution could still introduce it by bringing out an expert witness who could attest to having thoroughly examined the detector, and found it to be fit for the job. But that would be difficult and expensive, and not nearly as sure to be accepted by a jury as a lab-grade receiver.

      What courtrooms have done is to raise the standard of police work. Failure to protect and preserve evidence, not writing down notes from witnesses, all those things that might allow a crooked cop to harass someone he doesn't like, they're all reasons a jury might let a guy off. If you're going to be a cop, you need to be professional, or your success rate goes to hell. And if I were involved in such a situation, I'd sure want everyone involved to be taking it seriously.

      --
      John
    68. Re:Expensive cheats by Geminii · · Score: 1

      Include a single cell point inside the room which answers every attempted text call with insults, voice call with screaming, and WiFi packet with Goatse.

    69. Re:Expensive cheats by nobodie · · Score: 1

      I live in Mainland China and our students are told the same thing. In fact they are told to surrender their phones on entry. We usually catch 2 or 3 out of 50 with active phones during a 2 hour exam. 2 Weeks ago, during exams I just went around the room and chose the likely suspects and insisted that they surrender their phones to me. I got 5 out of 6 that I guessed at. Still think the other one had it though.

      Cheating is endemic here in Asia, when i first came here the professors at the university i taught in would spend exam review (revision for the Brits and their minions) would spend the week regaling students about how they cheated when they were students and how they tricked the system. Just Google cheating and Asia to kill a few hours with hilarity.

      --
      Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
  2. Great Spectrum Analyzer by Dolphinzilla · · Score: 2

    I use the FSH4 at work - nice little SA - interesting use for it.

    1. Re:Great Spectrum Analyzer by petermgreen · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yeah, I have a FSH8 (which is closely related to the FSH4 but goes to 8GHz) in my office and it's a really nicely designed peice of kit. It's light, the controls are responsive and well designed, the dyamic range is good (at least compared to the anritsu I don't have anything else to compare it too).

      Much nicer to use than the anritsu MS2036A we have.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    2. Re:Great Spectrum Analyzer by mla_anderson · · Score: 1

      Do the FSH's run WinXP as well? I've got the FSQ26 which is part spectrum analyzer (26GHz) and it's a great tool except when Windows crashes on me.

      --
      Sig is on vacation
    3. Re:Great Spectrum Analyzer by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      If they are using windows they have hidden it very well. Could well be a winCE base or so though (afaict wince can be made to look pretty much however the device vendor likes).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  3. Good! by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1

    This can't be a bad thing, if it raises the quality and character of prospective government workers...

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    1. Re:Good! by potus98 · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps this approach only ensures that *smart* prospective workers are weeded out. Okay, "smart" is subjective so substitute "motivated and creative."

      --
      This one gang kept wanting me to join cause I'm pretty good with a bo staff.
    2. Re:Good! by PPH · · Score: 2, Funny

      TFA says it caught them cheating. It didn't say they were disqualified. For all we know, cheating may have been a prerequisite for a gov't job.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    3. Re:Good! by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      Maybe if we put back the concept of "Cheat or lie (as an adult) once, career suicide for good", we could eliminate this crap.

      Or more likely, we'd end up with a ton of people being framed for it, and the weasels getting to the top more quickly.

    4. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the smart ones didn't get caught...

    5. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously somebody missed "Spies Like Us" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090056/
      BTW: These guys would be Frank Oz in the movie.

    6. Re:Good! by Renraku · · Score: 2

      Corruption is a serious issue.

      A lot of classes don't teach for understanding. They may try it but if you memorize it enough you can fake understanding by simply reciting everything. Then you promptly forget these things. Perhaps if failing didn't mean we students would have to change majors or drop out with nothing to show for our $50k in debt things might change. Of course there will always be the people that do as little as possible and harass others for the answers..when I was a freshman in college I saw a lot of these people fail out on the first semester because there were several versions of the same test per class.

      --
      Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    7. Re:Good! by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 1

      I cannot mod the parent up, so I will just have to give my wholeharted approval through this reply.

      Just one caveat... the forces of mediocrity have found a way to neuter the essay question, by instructing the graders to score by style rather than content. As a result, an SAT essay can be graded as well by weighing it as by reading it: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4634566 (admittedly, things may have changed since 2005, but for the better?)

    8. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've presented homework projects, along with a critique of the list of answers I noticed the TA left lying in the study area, and carefully did expanded work to show that I'd personally masterd the material and gone beyond those answers. It was very embarassing to the TA, who should never have been hired, but also embarassing to the professor because my paper was presented to the class as a whole as part of a surprise presentation program, and as soon as I presented the copy of the list of answers, I was kicked out of the room. It took a direct and unscheduled meeting with the professor, whose secretary kept messing up my scheduled appointments, to present him with my actual paper for review: my TA had rejected it outright and never shown it to him for any review or signing.

      Sadly, my aggressiveness in demonstrating the ease and presence of cheating was accepted by the professor, but it was clear that the middle management and underlings in his department accepted it as part of standard practice, and "they would evaluate" whether students were fit to graduate, rather than actually using the tests. They let me know, after their problems with the professor with this, that they would jeopardize my funding and my PhD if this ever went further.

      So, I can mention it anonymously on Slashdot, but if I told the relevant Dean at the time, I'd probably never graduate.

    9. Re:Good! by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      The best tests would give the taker a project to do, and should be made difficult enough that collaboration is allowed and encouraged.

      Projects are great, but collaboration in a test is silly. It's true that later in your career, you'll be asked to work in a team, BUT you will still be expected to know all your material, not just a tiny part of it.

      If people collaborate on answering a test, then the result won't be a comprehensive check of what they know, it will only show at best how good they are at answering the tiny part that they know really well, because the other parts are answered by someone else who's better than them.

      For example, one student might be good at string algorithms, and another at graphics. Together, they'll submit a great project that mixes strings and graphics algorithms, but the test won't show that the first guy sucks at graphics, and the second guy sucks at string algos.

      Then the first guy gets a job where he'll be put in a team on the strength of his project, and he'll be assigned some graphics work with nobody else to pass it off to.

    10. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TFA says it caught them cheating. It didn't say they were disqualified. For all we know, cheating may have been a prerequisite for a gov't job.

      Wall Street just called. They want their employees back.

    11. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe if we put back the concept of "Cheat or lie (as an adult) once, career suicide for good", we could eliminate this crap.

      Cheat once, career suicide for life?

      Tell me, do you think people who get in a car accident once when they're 20 should never be able to drive again?

    12. Re:Good! by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A lot of classes don't teach for understanding. They may try it but if you memorize it enough you can fake understanding by simply reciting everything.

      It's true, you have to do a bit more work yourself, but a lot of classes cover things which can be understood in an integrated way. It's just that it sometimes takes a lot of random fact-memorizing to get to that point. You may think you understand integral calculus because you get the concepts, but you don't really understand it until you've been forced to memorize a dozen or so techniques of integration. You need to have them memorized and practiced because, if you don't, no formula sheet is going to help you identify which one is relevant to the given formula.

      Now, whether classes do a good job of measuring understanding is another thing, and it could certainly be improved. But I've never let a bad class or a bad instructor get in the way of learning something I need to know.

      Perhaps if failing didn't mean we students would have to change majors or drop out with nothing to show for our $50k in debt things might change.

      So change majors, or don't fail. I don't really see what this has to do with the school, though. It sucks, but speaking from experience, it's far better than lowering standards.

      I speak from experience. I wasn't really ready for college, and managed to fail all but one class my freshman year. I dropped out, and my parents made it very clear: They'd support me if I was getting an education, but if I wasn't, they wouldn't. I got a job and moved out.

      A few years supporting myself in the Real World has given me a lot of perspective.

      So when my last job evaporated (entire company went under, crushed by the economy), I collected unemployment for awhile, then decided I may as well be doing something useful while I collect unemployment, so I went to a local community college. I took a full term (trimester), participated in a competition and a club, had plenty of time to relax, and got straight A's.

      Then I petitioned to get back into my original four-year university. It's much harder to get back if you've been dismissed for academic reasons than to get in the first time, but my awesome time at the community college probably said something. My first semester back, I was in four clubs, including a martial art (Hapkido). I moved from white belt to orange belt, and got straight A's.

      That was last spring.

      I had an internship last summer (still technically a freshman!), and last semester (also still technically a freshman!), I did pretty much all of the same things, plus I was a TA for a course I'd taken the semester before. Only two bad things happened: I got too busy for Hapkido for awhile, and I got one A-. The other three courses, I got A's. That brings me from a 0.6 GPA when I first came back to above 3.0.

      I am loving every minute of it. I'm actually understanding stuff. I'm actually putting the work in. I'm being challenged, and I'm rising to the challenge. (I'm not really learning humility particularly well, at least not tonight...) I can actually appreciate what I'm being taught -- I can cut through the bullshit, I can do the tedious grunt work (and quickly!), and I can get at the heart of what I'm supposed to be learning, and it's beautiful.

      If I had been allowed to pass with how badly I did? I'd have sat on my ass and played video games. I'd have coasted through as long as I could manage, then end up at some cushy sysadmin job, at least as long as those last. In fact, that's more or less the trajectory I was on throughout high school, but high school let me get away with it -- which is why I was so fucked up my first year of college.

      As it is, I'm seriously considering grad school. Even if I don't, I'm setting myself up to have pretty much any tech job I want when I graduate -- and even the bad classes are fun while I'm here. It's not easy to describe how dramatically different my life is because

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    13. Re:Good! by ChiRaven · · Score: 1

      The problem is that such tests, where there is no objectively correct answer, are always open to charges of teacher manipulation and favoritism in grading, which takes place WAY more often than might be believed. As a college mathematics instructor, I would never consider giving any test question that did not have an unambiguously correct answer, unless it was an "extra credit" question appended to the end of an actual test where answers that I judged to be incorrect did not count AGAINST any student's score.

      The only way to get around problems of this sort is to have the tests be anonymous (say, numbered for identification, but without names), and graded by someone outside the immediate school environment, then later matched with the student's identification to assign grades to students. This would remove the possibility that teachers would favor one student over another.

    14. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'm sick of the widespread mentality that cheating is not only desirable but necessary, and that if done for the purpose of "getting ahead", it's alright"

      See: Bailout
      See: CEO PAY
      See: War in IRAQ and Afghanistan and much of human history.
      See: Founding of america

      Human history is ALL ABOUT cheating, killing and enslaving others, oppression through force and deprivation (capitalism), most people in the US have never experienced what capitalism is like _elsewhere_. Hence the pro capitalist stance and why americans don't get why people like Chavez exist in south america.

    15. Re:Good! by laughingcoyote · · Score: 1

      A car accident is, well, an accident. And if you do something seriously stupid, such as drive drunk and cause a wreck, it most certainly can have lifelong consequences.

      Cheating or lying, conversely, is a very deliberate act. It takes conscious effort to make up a cheat sheet or come up with a lie. Now, I'm not talking about telling your wife "No, honey, you look great" in terms of what I mean by "lying". I am talking about fucking up and then covering up.

      I could see giving someone a "second chance" if the mistake were relatively innocuous and it were done relatively young. But if you were old enough you should know better, or caused a massive issue with your lying or cheating, that should be it. Failing to teach and enforce that such things will not be tolerated will lead to them being repeated.

      --
      To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
    16. Re:Good! by splerdu · · Score: 1

      > Catch more of them!

      Gotta catch 'em all!

    17. Re:Good! by monkyyy · · Score: 0

      no wall street is a mass of faceless greed able to detect which small bis. have enough greed to grow.
      no employees only addictoin, like 4chan

      --
      warning pointless sig
    18. Re:Good! by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Come now, even serious criminals are given the chance to rehabilitate. Exams tend to take place when people are young and foolish. People change. Not always, but often enough that you can't hold youthful indiscretions against them permanently.

    19. Re:Good! by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      As a college mathematics instructor, I would never consider giving any test question that did not have an unambiguously correct answer

      Well that's easy enough and perfectly reasonable for a maths exam. For a arts exam on the other hand, if you did that, it'd be a serious case of dumbing down. In the UK, for an exam which is part of an official qualification, marking by someone who does not know the examinee is the norm.

    20. Re:Good! by xenobyte · · Score: 1

      Catch more of them!

      I'm sick of the widespread mentality that cheating is not only desirable but necessary, and that if done for the purpose of "getting ahead", it's alright. I sure wouldn't want a doctor or a lawyer who cheated their way through. I want one who took every test honestly and demonstrated they actually learned the material.

      Exams don't work. Never did actually. At least they don't test for anything really usable except the ability to memorize textbooks, and the ability to utilize this under 'planned stress' on the specific day of the exam, maybe combined with luck as to which questions are on the test. If you happen to have a bad day, or get severely nervous waiting for the exam, you test a lot worse than your real level of expertise.

      Remember, the real world does not in any way resemble the exam situation. In the real world, pressure usually comes unexpected when something breaks down, when random factors suddenly force a change and you have to solve something unexpected with a tight deadline. Regular work can be stressful of course but you can plan ahead and prepare as you go along.

      A true test should involve a lot more than a fixed set of questions and no outside help.

      What you want is the ability to solve problems using whatever means necessary to finish and get the job done quickly and correctly. Solving it using only memorized techniques requires photographic memory or another form of flawless and total recall. If you fail while still being certain that you're right can kill people, especially if you're a doctor. I would much prefer to have a doctor that knows his limits, that verifies diagnosis and treatment with colleagues or references (textbooks, reference works or the net), than one know-it-all who think he's infallible (which he isn't of course. Nobody is).

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    21. Re:Good! by Sky+Cry · · Score: 1

      Yes, cheating in schools has a strong negative impact for *all* students. Say, in a perfect class where no-one is cheating you need to get 60% of a test right to pass. Student A who didn't study well gets 50% and fails. Student B who took the time and effort gets 65% and passes.

      Now say student A is cheating to get 75% instead and passes. Student B who took the time and effort is now demotivated, knowing that cheating can get him higher score. Student B starts to cheat too and gets 85%. This, in turn, demotivates more students.

      As more and more students cheat, score become less representative of the knowledge. Teachers assume that the subject became easier (they're getting better at explaining it, students become smarter, etc.) and adjust the minimum score accordingly to 80% (or increase the difficulty of the test).

      Now getting a high score becomes possible only if you are very very bright, very very hard working, or if you cheat. This motivates more people to cheat, decreasing rapidly the quality of education. It's a slippery slope - cheaters motivate other students to cheat instead of studying.

    22. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Multiple choice and fill in the blank tests are obsolete. The best tests would give the taker a project to do, and should be made difficult enough that collaboration is allowed and encouraged.

      That's a bunch of crap. It's all about who designed the test, and most teachers are just too lazy to bother.

      My Latin teacher used multiple choice on our Final exam. He comes into the room and says "Good news and bad news. Good news is it's a multiple choice exam." Smiles all around the room. "The bad news it's only one question." Confused looks around the room. He hands us a 20 page exam. The question says "Which of the following three answers is the most accurate translation of the following work?" and the first 5 pages are the work to be translated. The answers are each 5 pages long, and the differences are extremely slight. Not only did this force us to actually translate the entire fucking thing, but then we had to go through and look at the differences in each answer and compare them to each other. And it's not like the answers had obvious issues; they were ALL technically acceptable translations.
      He used different test for each class- as in, completely different original works. He actually created 12 different translations, and had them ranked in order of correctness. Each translation was about 5 pages long and stapled together and labeled A to L. He randomly mixed which 3 each person would get and noted it in when the TA's handed out the test.

      So ya, go ahead and cheat. You might have A and C and F with F being most right, and the guy next to you might have F and C and G with G being the most right.

      That was the hardest exam I've ever taken in my life. And one of the best teachers I ever had.

    23. Re:Good! by crow_t_robot · · Score: 3

      I personally know that cheating on the foreign service exam will get you fast-tracked to GLG-20.

      - A. Millbarge

    24. Re:Good! by spopepro · · Score: 1

      ... that verifies diagnosis and treatment with colleagues or references (textbooks, reference works or the net), than one know-it-all who think he's infallible (which he isn't of course. Nobody is).

      But how do you know where to look? Sure, we have very good search tools these days, but there is so much information out there that going into a blind search isn't going to be very helpful. So you would need to know enough to know what and how to find verification or help, and then know enough to evaluate if the source is trustworthy. And I would certainly want any doctor of mine to have these skills confirmed (tested) through the education and training system for their profession. No flawless recall needed, but there is a certain level of knowledge and proficiency that needs to exist, and that means testing.

    25. Re:Good! by ChiRaven · · Score: 1

      That's good, Basil. I'm STILL convinced that those &#%&@! grad students who taught the undergrad English sections just made up and changed the rules for how to use commas (at least on papers they knew were written by math majors) every single week just so there could BE no real logic to it. But disagreements between the Math Department and the English Department is kind of an age-old tradition on a lot of campuses.

      (We're talking things from the early 1960's here.)

  4. I would like to know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How do they manage to use their phones/other wireless devices without being seen. Maybe the classes are huge...

    1. Re:I would like to know by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Plenty of people are able to text without needing to look at the screen. And long hair can easily cover an earpiece.

  5. Might not have been cheating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps they just had Windows 7 phones.

  6. Thankfully.. by intellitech · · Score: 0

    You need a warrant to do things like that (in the U.S.)...right?

    --
    vos nescitis quicquam, nec cogitatis quia expedit nobis ut unus moriatur homo pro populo et non tota gens pereat.
    1. Re:Thankfully.. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Why would you? What is being searched?

    2. Re:Thankfully.. by TD-Linux · · Score: 2

      No, there is no law that prevents other people from seeing that you are broadcasting signals, much like there is no laws that make it illegal for a police officer to notice that you are smoking a joint.

      Spectrum analyzers don't decrypt the signal, they only check for its presence.

    3. Re:Thankfully.. by martas · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but possibly not. They didn't go out into the general pubic with these, they monitored a group of people who had already implicitly agreed to partially forfeit their expectation of privacy. They knew they were being monitored for cheating, but possibly didn't know exactly how. In the US, if this went to court, it could be a tricky case. BTW, either way they wouldn't need warrants, since they weren't law enforcement (I think).

    4. Re:Thankfully.. by Leafheart · · Score: 1

      Why would you need one? You could simple add something like this on the form you sign to take part of an exame. You hereby abide by this contract to not use any form of outside or electronic help during the course of this exam. And also to not use any type of communication device, included but not limited to cellphones. You also accept that during the exam, on the vicinity of the exam room, a device will be installed to monitor inbound and outbound communication, to scan for possible attempts to have external help. And you acknowledge and accept the fact that the evidence found by such devices can and will be used to investigate and if found guilty, exclude the guilty part from the rest of the procedures.

      Of course you cover it in legalese and doesn't right amateurish like I did. In any case I can't understand why someone would think this is wrong.

      --
      --- "When you gotta do something wrong. You gotta do it right. (Fighter)"
    5. Re:Thankfully.. by jrmcferren · · Score: 1

      No, they are checking for the presence of a signal in the airwaves. That is as public as being able to see if you have a light on or not if the light is coming from the window. If they were looking at the contents of the transmission, that would be a wiretap (cellular is protected by law) and would require a warrant.

      --
      sudo mod me up
    6. Re:Thankfully.. by icebike · · Score: 1

      They weren't monitoring their conversations/texts.

      The weren't listening in.

      A spectrum analyzer as the article mentions simply says there is a cell phone signal emanating from a location.

      They don't even have to be in a call at the time. All they would need is to have a powered on cell phone on their person.

      Since (presumably) cell phones are forbidden in the test room, you simply walk in, use your detector to locate and walk over to the cell phone holder and demand it.

      TFA says:

      The devices checked for signals from pagers or mobile phones near the test site.

      Those sitting for the exam are supposed to shut off their mobile phones to stop test answers from reaching them via calls, text messages or vibrations.

      There was no search. There was no wiretap. Simply the detection of a powered on cell phone in an area where they were prohibited.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  7. Exams in other cultures by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have lived outside our Western culture for a while now, and there is a big difference in the idea of tests and examinations. We have the idea that the test is there to see who is competent to get the job. Simple, right? Nope, it's our own cultural biases that make us think this way. Elsewhere, it's all about getting what comes after the test. Your actual skill is irrelevant, not really a worthy topic of discussion. It's all about the job that you can get, or the university that you can get into, or whatever. The idea that if you don't have the skills then you're not qualified doesn't translate. Eastern cultures have a long history of examinations and take a different view than we do. I know a teacher who, after repeatedly warning against cheating in his class, was fired for daring to catch his students cheating in class. The students lost face, you see, and the teacher (not the students' cheating) was identified as the cause of the problem. True story.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    1. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er.... I didn't really get what you were saying here. You say that "Eastern cultures have a long history of examinations and take a different view than we do", but it didn't seem like you fully explained what that view was, only that it differed from the Western view.

    2. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep I am a bit confused

    3. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      he would be a racist if he purported to speak for another culture
      besides, educated people should know what he's talking about

    4. Re:Exams in other cultures by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 2

      The Western view seems to be moving towards one in which a degree, with a high GPA, is an entitlement earned by paying tuition, and instructors who upset their students by resisting this change are not helping their careers.

    5. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      All very interesting, but what's your point?

      By bringing it up, I assume you feel that the eastern philosophy of cheating on tests is superior to the west's philosophy of meritocracy?

    6. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I know a teacher who, after repeatedly warning against cheating in his class, was fired for daring to catch his students cheating in class. The students lost face, you see, and the teacher (not the students' cheating) was identified as the cause of the problem. True story.

      It's very believable. I just started working in a university in Malaysia. At the start, I found from my colleagues about the pervasiveness of cheating and plagiarism in the university. However, since I found that there was very little guard against cheating, I believed that the students just thought that they would lose out if they do not cheat. That is, the system is at fault here rather than the students.

      Hence, I designed my courses to make copying and cheating difficult.

      It didn't take long for me to realize that my style of teaching totally bombed on the students. Many did not like it at all. They believed that what I did was "destroying their future" (-exact words they wrote in my evaluation), and they went to the dean to complain about this "most stupid lecturer they have ever seen" (-exact words). Yet another student commented, "you think you are in US or Japan, but this is malaysia" (-exact words).

      True story. I only hope that after a few generations, things will start to change.

    7. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a Westerner in Taiwan right now and going to graduate school and I can tell you the tests are quite rigorous (no multiple choice nonsense) and cheating is frowned upon. The only issue I have is that they seem to be too rigorous. Almost a gotcha mentality. Although they are grading on a curve. I don't know about other Asian countries, but this one seems to hold to Western standards. In contrast my wife used to teach at a lower level university in the US and her bonus pay was based on her student evaluations. Although she actually busted some cheaters, there was an incentive not to do so (IMHO because the university was more interested in money than academics).

    8. Re:Exams in other cultures by djconrad · · Score: 1

      This was done in an Eastern country. He was indicating an interesting relevant cultural approach that informs our understanding of the story.

    9. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I call bull on that. I am Chinese and have lived in Western culture for almost 20 years. "Eastern culture"'s views on examinations are not that much different to that of the west, that includes attitudes towards cheating - a student cheating will be punished. Your "true story" is likely hearsay or a case of "western whispers" (where western people perpetuate the myth that attitudes in the east are completely different)

    10. Re:Exams in other cultures by RancidPeanutOil · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's hard to explain really, but it involves face and the assumption of entitlement. If you've gotten to the exam stage, it's just a formality to pass the test, and preventing you from doing so is assumed to be contrary to societal norms. I'm not the OP of course, but I too have spent time outside the west, and proctored a few exams. What the OP relates is accurate. We had some discussions about ethics in one class, and the students were utterly mystified by the western attitude towards cheating. The best students in the class asked how the top-graded students could abandon their lesser classmates like that. If you have the knowledge and you refuse to share it with everyone, you're seen as being very arrogant and greedy. These are students who will walk up to a student being questioned and hit them on both sides of the face, grab their chin, and say to the teacher "see - he's stupid. Don't ask him questions, we need to help him." This, by the way, is how students pass the TOEFL in asia to get into U.S. universities, despite any lack of technical skills. This is why the GRE is useless for foreigners (perfectly acceptable to text and look up things on wikipedia during administration). And, incidentally, it is why all the great math scores that come out of standardized testing in Asian tiger nations showing an achievement gap are utterly baseless and useless as a comparative measure. The scores are of the top students, and all the other scores are the lesser students copying answers from the top students. The teachers actively promote cheating in most public, non-IB schools, as well as at the university level. They brazenly cheat from the youngest ages because there is no corollary to our ethical prohibition.

    11. Re:Exams in other cultures by robbyjo · · Score: 2

      In Ancient China, imperial exam was literally game-changing. The stake is high; it was virtually the only way peasants could become noblemen. Therefore, people did whatever it took to be successful. This system was copied and adapted to some degree in ancient Japan, Korea, or Vietnam. Hence similar attitude also pervades in these countries.

      --

      --
      Error 500: Internal sig error
    12. Re:Exams in other cultures by hh10k · · Score: 1

      The students lost face, you see, and the teacher (not the students' cheating) was identified as the cause of the problem. True story.

      In a country like China, it's likely the cheating students (or their parents) knew how to leverage relationships with the people in charge. The outcome would be different if the teacher had friends higher in power.

    13. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +5, insightful!

      Thank you for that observation. I'd never considered it as a cultural thing, but I do see it now that you've pointed it out.

      So can you tell me if "the end justifies the means" is seen as amoral in the general case, the way we would in the West? Or is it specific to tests, and the perception that "passing a test via any means hurts no one and gets me the job," but they would still find hurtful things to be inappropriate?

    14. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I just finished giving my exams in a foreign culture (I teach at a university in Beijing). My experience is different, but that may be because the college I teach for specifically prepares students for going overseas for graduate school. Not only am I encouraged to identify cheaters, I am given a bonus for catching anyone cheating. In spite of the fact that the rooms can be cold, putting one's hands into pockets to warm them up is considered an indication of cheating, even if after the fact it is shown the pockets were empty. And in spite of the fact that I am an IT instructor, I have to drill into my students brains that the types of plagiarism that have gotten them so far in China is an academic death sentence in most Western universities.

      That said, causing a loss of face to the guys who manage our IT infrastructure by pointing out that the school could get better results and save money by hiring a couple of teenagers away from managing an internet cafe has caused me a moderate amount of pain. And that was after their improper servicing of the (not sealed) lead acid batteries in the UPS rack caused a fire destroying the majority of the schools IT infrastructure for about 1/2 the semester.

    15. Re:Exams in other cultures by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 5, Insightful

      superiority of Western culture? Where, exactly, did I say that? If you're witch-hunting, you'll probably find a witch. The only mention of superiority is in your own mind. I suppose actually living in the East for so many years has a different view. BTW, Mr. Cultural Blinders, the topic in this thread is tests for government employment so I'm not sure that T.A. experience really applies. Anti-Western hate seems appropriate for an academic, however.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    16. Re:Exams in other cultures by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Where particularly are you talking about? I'd appreciate your experience of a specific country or two, but I can't believe that you have wide enough experience to generalise about the entire world outside the west.

    17. Re:Exams in other cultures by monkyyy · · Score: 0

      i think the real problem is people assuming that culture is more uniform outside their (small) view on the world, china is probably as different as japan, or where ever the test was taken, as america and well france

      --
      warning pointless sig
    18. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BOOSH!

    19. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The students lost face, you see, and the teacher (not the students' cheating) was identified as the cause of the problem. True story.

      I think you misunderstood a little bit. The point of view in Japan in regards to this (and many other "Asian" countries) is that if the teacher had done his/her job correctly, the students would not have needed to cheat.

      They consider failure to be the fault of the teacher for not driving the students hard enough. And by the same token, failure of the teacher is then extended to a failure of the school administration.

    20. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you misunderstood a little bit. The point of view in Japan in regards to this (and many other "Asian" countries) is that if the teacher had done his/her job correctly, the students would not have needed to cheat. They consider failure to be the fault of the teacher for not driving the students hard enough. And by the same token, failure of the teacher is then extended to a failure of the school administration.

      Why should a teacher have to "drive" students to learn and be punished if they remain uninterested? Teachers should certainly try to motivate students but there is a limit, I'm working on a masters degree in computer science (at a European university) and I see people all around me that don't take their education very seriously, even to the point that they sit playing Farmville, chatting or pruning their Facebook pages in, say... theory of computation class and then write angry reviews about the teacher when they flunk the course which a lot of them do every semester. The way I see it you pay good money to attend a university, in this country most people actually accumulate a sizable debt in the form of student loans. If you procrastinate, do nothing but migrate between keg parties or just pick a line of education that is utterly uniteresting to you and as a result of this fail all your courses, that is your business, it is your conscious choice. If you are lucky your failure will at the very least shake you up and teach you the value of time, money and hard work. Anybody who is tries to get around the hard lesson failure teaches by cheating on an exam should be severely punished and I don't care how much face they lose in the process.

    21. Re:Exams in other cultures by khchung · · Score: 0

      superiority of Western culture? Where, exactly, did I say that?

      Back-tracking already? How about this two statement?

      We have the idea that the test is there to see who is competent to get the job. Simple, right? Nope, it's our own cultural biases that make us think this way

      Elsewhere [...] The idea that if you don't have the skills then you're not qualified doesn't translate.

      The fact that you posited an ideal (meritocracy, which while generally considered a good virtue, BTW, isn't actually practiced in the West anyway) and then imply it is only your "cultural biases" is tantamount to saying "we have this great meritocracy culture that other cultures do not have".

      My TA work is in a university, and the government employment tests are exactly for the same age group (18-25). Unless you are going to imply Uni students are more prone to cheating, then my experience directly applies to the same age group between Western and Eastern candidates.

      The only cultural blinder is yours, as you assumed any criticism against your criticism of other culture mean I am "Anti-Western". If anything, I am "anti-hypocrisy", which your posts demonstrated in full (you accused me of being "anti-western" for criticizing western hypocrisy, while ignoring the fact that mine is a reply to your criticizing of other cultures)

      [Go ahead and mod me down, I know piercing the /. meme of Asians somehow being inferior (always copy, no creativity, cannot really compete, like to cheat, etc) is unpopular, but sometimes, things need to be said]

      --
      Oliver.
    22. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm he said it was an ideal not that it was actually practiced. He also didn't say that the western ideal was superior to eastern ideals or practice. He is pointing out a difference, if you don't think it is accurate then say so, but you don't need to do it in a racist way.

    23. Re:Exams in other cultures by RancidPeanutOil · · Score: 2

      Sure, I can't. We're talking both public and international primary and high schools in Taiwan, Vietnam, and Korea. I'm only generalizing about those specific examples where I've had the actual experience, and of course it isn't representative, but while yes, the particular students I had did those things, the teachers and proctors as well found it perfectly acceptable. A lot of the time you can also go in to administer a placement test (or the TOEFL, but I heard it secondhand, although I was there for the GRE), for example, and the reality (as they've explained it to me after I'd take some student's test away) is that if you stop them from cheating on the test, there are simply other avenues for the kids to pursue - namely bribery between the parents and the weakest administrative link, and bribery is something that many of these governments are actively trying to curtail, so it's a question of which is the lesser evil, made simpler by the fact that, again, the cultural stance against cheating is, stereotypically, not as bad a thing as it is in the west. Your mileage may vary, and I hate generalizing about some mystical eastern collectivist-facey culture thing, but evidence usually bears it out, in this case.

    24. Re:Exams in other cultures by jewens · · Score: 1

      I took my GRE in Tokyo while stationed overseas and the anti-cheating stuff was every bit as thorough as any testing center in the US. Up to and including making sure I took off my digital watch. I can't imagine them allowing a cell-phone in that room.

      --
      That group of bovine standing over there appears quite portentous. That's right it's an ominous cow herd.
    25. Re:Exams in other cultures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know professors in the USA who got in trouble for catching students cheating on a test. The university didn't want the hassle of kicking out the student and dealing with lawyers (which was threatened). In the end, everyone learned that the students can cheat with impunity.

    26. Re:Exams in other cultures by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      That's interesting. Thanks. I have a Taiwanese friend, I'll ask her about her experience.

      Don't worry about generalising, my flatmate is Japanese, and her different cultural views on how the world is/should be surprises me on an almost daily basis. When it's a cultural thing, I think it's OK to generalise. So long as it's interest in the differences rather than despising them.

  8. Good! by laughingcoyote · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Catch more of them!

    I'm sick of the widespread mentality that cheating is not only desirable but necessary, and that if done for the purpose of "getting ahead", it's alright. I sure wouldn't want a doctor or a lawyer who cheated their way through. I want one who took every test honestly and demonstrated they actually learned the material.

    Maybe if we put back the concept of "Cheat or lie (as an adult) once, career suicide for good", we could eliminate this crap. It's infected everything from police to politicians, and programmers to paramedics. If we can find better ways to ensure people actually know what the hell they're doing, instead of demonstrating they can read letters from a cheat sheet, good.

    Though, part of the blame also lies with those who design the tests. Multiple choice and fill in the blank tests are obsolete. The best tests would give the taker a project to do, and should be made difficult enough that collaboration is allowed and encouraged. After all, in real world scenarios, collaboration and the ability to research are important skills at nearly everything. As an alternative, one could at the very least give essay questions that would require careful thought and don't have a single "right answer" that can be copied in.

    Of course, that takes more effort to grade than running a bunch of sheets through a reader. Imagine that, giving something actual thought.

    --
    To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
  9. Scare tactics by Musically_ut · · Score: 2
    Though I admit it is cool and innovative use of technology, I think there is something fundamentally wrong in trying to catch cheating by throwing everything except the kitchen sink at it. It seems to be the no-you-are-doing-it-wrong kind of a way.

    After all, some other ways work too.

    --
    Never trust a spiritual leader who cannot dance -- Mr. Miyagi
    1. Re:Scare tactics by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      He only did that because he didn't have a way of proving absolutely that any particular individual cheated. If there's a foolproof way of catching a cheater, such as being seen in the act by an invigilator, then that's unquestionably a good thing.

  10. Government Workers? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

    Too bad it's not the U.S.

    If it were, I'd say: make them take a polygraph, a urine test, and walk through a backscatter machine before entering the test room.

    I know those are either nearly useless (backscatter and polygraph) and of questionable value to society (urine test), but government and corporations make us take them... let them do it too.

    1. Re:Government Workers? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Far simpler, pass a law stating that if any employee of any organization has to do those things all the execs must too. Written in such a way that if a postal employee has to piss in a cup so does the President. This sort of crap would disappear overnight.

    2. Re:Government Workers? by viking_gsp · · Score: 1

      I know those are either nearly useless (backscatter and polygraph) and of questionable value to society (urine test), but government and corporations make us take them... let them do it too.

      I think it's a stretch to say that backscatter machines would be useless in the attempt to catch potential cheaters. They most certainly would be able to detect hidden items on their person. What you disagree with is their obvious invasion or privacy, not their usefulness or lack thereof.

    3. Re:Government Workers? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      You realize they could hide the items in something that confuses the machines or just do what prisoners do.

    4. Re:Government Workers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad it's not the U.S.

      If it were, I'd say: make them take a polygraph, a urine test, and walk through a backscatter machine before entering the test room.

      Ha. If this was the USA, they would get sued for administering the test in the first place. Really.

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042402305.html

      If an employer has a test, and blacks do poorly on the test, you're going to be spending millions in legal fees.

    5. Re:Government Workers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think the backscatter machines can miss a lot of stuff. The only way one is going to stop a determined terrorist if if the damned thing falls over and crushes him.

    6. Re:Government Workers? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      I agree 100%. I have even told prospective employers that before. Really.

      I said "If someone is under the influence of drugs or alcohol, who is likely to do the most damage to the company and its employees? Obviously the managers. Therefore, I'll pee in a cup and show you the results, if you will show me the results of YOURS."

      I only did that to somebody I had learned I really didn't want to work for anyway. But I have told others that I simply won't take the test, period.

    7. Re:Government Workers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most (all?) Top Secret clearances require polygraph testing, so actually this already happens.

    8. Re:Government Workers? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      So you're a mind-reader? Interesting. Please teach me your technique. On second thought, never mind, since you didn't even come close.

      No, I question their usefulness. They have shown to be nearly useless, for example, at detecting certain kinds and configurations of explosives. I believe they would probably be equally useless at detecting, say, cheat notes under your shirt.

      And let's not forget the health questions that are raised by the ionizing radiation. Even the radiation that bounces off excites molecules in the skin, and those that don't are absorbed. These devices have NEVER been given a bill of health by any medical authority.

    9. Re:Government Workers? by viking_gsp · · Score: 1

      What exactly would they hide a cell phone in to confuse the machine? Additionally, a human interpreter of the backscatter image would be able to detect an anomaly of this kind more times than not. Additionally, it would be a bit conspicuous to "de-keister" an object during an exam. But I take your point. I'm not defending the usage of the machine. I'm simply pointing out that it would not be useless for this purpose.

    10. Re:Government Workers? by viking_gsp · · Score: 1

      So you don't think they would detect a cell phone? Perhaps they wouldn't catch everything, but they most certainly catch a cell phone, thus making them effectively useful for this purpose (barring the earlier, far more difficult, keistering suggestion). I never said anything about health consequences or moral issues pertaining to their use. I simply said they would be useful and effective to detect cell phones on potential cheaters, as the article in question is debating.

    11. Re:Government Workers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh no, urine tests are useless too. They generally test for a change in the properties of your urine, not the actual drug.

      There are plenty of products on the market that will rejigger the chemical ratios back to "normal". It's a lot like faking a polygraph, you just have to spike the "controls" so that the "variables" are relatively low.

      I worked at a headshop in HS and sold thousands of dollars of the stuff, we had plenty of repeat customers. I also got a suprise test when the IT company I worked for did a government job (some law requiring drug tests). The recruiter/future millionaire chemist was prepared for this. He delayed the test, went to his home lab, mixed up something, and we all passed.

      Seriously, he sold a patent for a transdermal delivery system for a generic drug and now lives in Mexico.

    12. Re:Government Workers? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      I grant that they would probably detect a cell phone hidden under the clothing.

    13. Re:Government Workers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Far simpler, pass a law stating that if any employee of any organization has to do those things all the execs must too. Written in such a way that if a postal employee has to piss in a cup so does the President. This sort of crap would disappear overnight.

      If it was just the President (or Fearless Leader), he would see it as his duty to set the example without complaint. What you've got to do is get all the execs and middle managers and policy setters to pee in the cups: VPs, directors, the board, the CxOs. You want them all to whine to each other about how degrading it would be. The mutual complaining is really effective at keeping the stupid changes away.

    14. Re:Government Workers? by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 1

      You've been reading Snow Crash, haven't you?

    15. Re:Government Workers? by gparent · · Score: 1

      Well, that will sure give me some interesting thing to say if I ever switch job and have to take one. Thanks.

    16. Re:Government Workers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guess which Federal building allows smoking? I'll give you a hint: it is the only one that contains the people who made it a law that you can't smoke in other Federal buildings.

      I suspect if anyone who received money from the Federal government (President, Congress, all the way down, maybe exempting judges just for lulz) had to pass drug screening, we'd be a lot better off.

  11. Easier fix. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Administer exams in a low, low basement room, or in an area with no cell service.

    1. Re:Easier fix. by splerdu · · Score: 1

      I imagine they're more interested in catching the cheats, rather than preventing cheating.

  12. Kids have it too easy... by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    Using cell phones to cheat? All we had were a couple cans and a crummy piece of string. But we got by... Next they'll ask for transportation, too, I'll bet.

    Disrespectful punks, get off my lawn!

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  13. What a Load of Shi* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They didn't find cheaters, they found idiots who didn't turn their phones off!

    Using an FS4 to find someone with their phone turned on is nothing other than a waste of money and will most likely be a one of case of killing the chicken to scare the monkey.
     

  14. False postives? by houghi · · Score: 1

    They were suspected. That does not mean they actually were. Also how many false negatives?

    And why allow phones in the first place? Just do not allow anything that can be used for cheating, including pens. Provide people with what they need. If they need a calculator, then give them a calculator. If people need a pen and paper, then give them pen and paper.

    From experience I know that you can open a pen and put paper in it. (Also I know that by re-writing the cheating paper several times, because it was to big, I was actually learning and in the end did not need the cheat sheet, because I knew what was on it.)

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    1. Re:False postives? by TD-Linux · · Score: 1

      I think the point was that cell phones weren't allowed, and so any cell phone usage detected could be assumed as cheating, if not at least breaking the rules of the test.

    2. Re:False postives? by Meshach · · Score: 1

      And why allow phones in the first place?

      While that is an admirable aspiration I think that cell phones / smart phones have reached the point that disallowing them is no longer practical.

      My sister is a high school math teacher and she says that in her school students are not allowed to use a phone during class but she still confiscates at least one per week. Normally the kids are not cheating but just texting friends. Actually the second most common is taking pictures of the exam paper! In any case the teachers only recourse is to confiscate the phone, give it to the VP, and make the student go and get it back while explaining why they were using it in the first place.

      --
      "Maybe this world is another planet's hell"
      Aldous Huxley
    3. Re:False postives? by drsquare · · Score: 1

      How is it not practical to enforce rules in a school? You simply state that phones are not allowed in classrooms or exam rooms, and if a child is found with one, they are expelled.

      What happened to discipline?

  15. Test with no collaboration and no open book / gool by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 2

    Test with no collaboration and no open book / Google are not the real world and just lead to people who can pass the test but have no idea on how to do the work.

    The tests need be better less about memory and more hands on. Also how many people have jobs when having a book, reference guide, google, a manual, and more is banned and having others working / help with you is a no no?

  16. Windows Phone 7 = FAIL by Scareduck · · Score: 0

    Wouldn't this falsely convict anyone carrying a Windows Phone 7 phone, which sends tons of data unbidden?

    --

    Dog is my co-pilot.

    1. Re:Windows Phone 7 = FAIL by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Not if the person thinks to turn their cell phone off.

  17. LOL by TafBang · · Score: 3, Funny

    brb, going to text my friends during their finals

    1. Re:LOL by Meshach · · Score: 1

      brb, going to text my friends during their finals

      You mean your former friends?

      --
      "Maybe this world is another planet's hell"
      Aldous Huxley
    2. Re:LOL by TafBang · · Score: 1

      well, in theory it would be "Soon to be" former friends. but that's just probability. Thank you kindly, Mr. Angry

  18. Haha by cloakedpegasus · · Score: 1

    I've always wondered what it would be like to take a test ala "Old School" with an earbud in my ear and a van outside sending me the answers.

    1. Re:Haha by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      There's also the Boston Public version, which involves texting the questions to Verne Troyer hiding in a locker outside the classroom

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    2. Re:Haha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That must not be a metal locker :)

  19. Faraday Cage Exam room by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It could be done!

  20. Actually that's not entirely true... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Was it was really worth the $40,000 they probably spent on them?
    Oh, that's right. It's a government organization. Spending money is in their job description.

    The actual price isn't that different from retail. The rest are kick backs for the purchasing officer and his superiors.

  21. our parents failed so miserably that by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

    Our parents failed so miserably that the only way to catch cheaters is with technology. Cause it's too hard to raise them to be upstanding adults.

    I bet you they'd blame someone else if we pointed out the kids weren't raised well. (And then fuss about how today's youth won't accept responsibility, while expressing confusion over who they learned that from!)

    1. Re:our parents failed so miserably that by russotto · · Score: 1

      Our parents failed so miserably that the only way to catch cheaters is with technology. Cause it's too hard to raise them to be upstanding adults.

      The better you can catch cheaters, the better those who are upstanding adults will do. An honor system with no verification at all merely rewards the dishonorable.

    2. Re:our parents failed so miserably that by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That's certainly one aspect. The other aspect is that we have way too much riding on tests. Tests are known to be faulty measures of knowledge. A better approach tends to be basically evaluating the students constantly, but with small exercises balanced over multiple types. Answer questions in class, group work, applications and such.

      It's a lot harder to fool that sort of comprehensive assessment than a written exam covering most of the class' grade.

    3. Re:our parents failed so miserably that by couchslug · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. Honesty in any generation is adorable in OTHER people, but doesn't confer a competitive advantage.

      Our elite masters are rich and corrupt, our leaders are SELECTED for dishonesty because they must pander to a large spectrum of often-conflicting voter desires in order to be elected, and our co-workers are often corrupt ass-kissers who knob their way up the chain.

      It's logical to avoid getting caught by being reasonably honest, that is all.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  22. EXPENSIVE by astern · · Score: 1

    I'd like to know where the proctor for that test gets their money! Those R&S analyzers are awesome but -pricey- pieces of equipment.

    --
    If the world isn't beating a path to your door you're doing something wrong.
  23. toe computer with no signal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    talk to it in morse code by pressing buttons in your shoes and get braile like responses tapped into your skin.

    no online hookup, no detection without test takers going through a scanner.

  24. Old news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From TFA "The devices checked for signals from pagers or mobile phones near the test site." I'm guessing this was in the 90s.

  25. Faraday cage by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    Why exam rooms are simply built as Faraday cages, I'll never understand. I bet they even sell drywall laminated with foil or some such that would make it easy. Put it up, ground it, make sure the doors are steel or aluminum, no cellular or wifi at all. The rooms totally isolated.

    1. Re:Faraday cage by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      and sure enough they do make it: http://www.usg.com/sheetrock-gypsum-panels-foil-backed.html
      run an unshielded ground wire down the length of every stud and every sheet will be contacting ground. Cheap and simple.

  26. No different than IT Certification Exams by HockeyPuck · · Score: 1

    My wife writes certification exams for a large IT company. It's not enough that her company has to create 6-7 versions of their exam and pull 100 questions out of a pool of a 1000. In older versions you could go back and check/review/revise an answer before you hit the big "Submit for Grading" button. Now the exam constantly grades you and when it determines that either you cannot pass or you cannot fail, the test is automatically ended and you score is provided. Thereby making it harder for someone to see all 100 questions on their specific test.

    Why?

    In Asia test takers were paid to go in, sit in the exam and just memorize as many questions as possible. Now if they miss say 31% of the questions, the exam is over (assuming you need a 70% to pass).

    Not only is the exam much harder now, but it's more expensive for students to take.

  27. Re:Test with no collaboration and no open book / g by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    I used to think as you do, and I've come to realize that while it's very true for some things, it's exactly wrong for many.

    Test with no collaboration and no open book / Google are not the real world and just lead to people who can pass the test but have no idea on how to do the work.

    Well, to start with, if you only know how to solve the problem with Google, do you really know how to solve the problem? Anyone can Google for the answer. What you need to do is solve the problem yourself. Yes, it's boring, it's something everyone else has already solved, and you probably solved at least once on the homework. But if you can solve this problem, you've demonstrated that if someone throws a new problem at you, one no one has solved yet, you'll be able to do it -- and it'll be all the easier when you have Google to help.

    The same can be said of the book.

    If you test people in groups, you now have all the problems of groupwork -- how do you know who did what? Who actually contributed, who did all the work, and who sat back and collected the credit? Or, if it's a problem that actually needs multiple people to solve in the given time, maybe one of the students you're about to fail was actually competent, just got stuck with a useless group?

    Even assuming the students are honest about it, it can be hard to remember how it actually happened.

    Add to that the logistical problems. If you allow Google, but not collaboration, how do you prevent students from communicating? What if you want to limit collaboration? How do you know a student hasn't hidden an answer sheet on Google or in their book?

    The only way this could possibly work is if you came up with at least significant variations on a project each semester, if not entirely new projects, and you made sure that the key concepts you want students to understand are something Google doesn't know -- which means you're basically going to do original research each semester. Really?

    Homework is good on its own, and it has many of the above problems. But a test is one way to make sure a student has actually learned something from your course.

    Of course, the better courses include sufficient information on the test to bring it closer to the environment you were supposed to be doing your homework in -- enough to avoid the memorization, but not enough for you to just Google "Hey, everybody, what's the answer?" For instance, for my Data Structures course, the Javadoc for relevant pieces of the Java APIs was included on the test. For my introductory Physics course, relevant equations were included on the test, you just needed to know what they mean and how to apply them.

    And guess what?

    If you made it through that Physics course without understanding what E=K+U means, or F=ma, or K=(1/2)mv^2, guess what? You don't know what they mean and how to apply them. Sure, on the job, you have access to Google, so maybe you could Google things like the universal gravitational constant or the formula for energy in a sinusoidal oscillator, but if you have to Google for what F=ma means, you didn't learn a single goddamned thing from that course, and you deserve the F you'll be getting. If you don't know that F means Force, you get F for Fail.

    You can have the Java Collections APIs -- we don't care if you've memorized something your IDE will tab-complete for you anyway. But if you can't loop through a linked list without Googling "linked lists" or using iterators, you don't really understand linked lists. I don't care that iterators make more sense in the real world -- you fail, see you next semester.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  28. Cost? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    How many times a year are exams held? I count less than twenty, and probably more like ten, for a given course -- and they do try to pack the exams relatively close together.

    Should the exam rooms sit idle the rest of the time? I generally see lecture halls being co-opted as exam rooms, but they're useful as lecture halls the rest of the time.

    Or are you saying we should cage everything that might ever be used for an exam, so students can't use laptops or cell phones during class? Do not want.

    If you can come up with a way to do it easily and cheaply, and just for exam time, I'm all for it. But even then, I'd also rather catch the cheaters and expel the fuckers than just throw up another obstacle for them to work around.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    1. Re:Cost? by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      For WLAN, a lecture hall would need another access point anyway. Just turn it off during the exams. For cellular networks, a repeater/microcell should do the trick.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    2. Re:Cost? by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Why would they sit empty the rest of the time? Oh noes, someone can't text their friends during the lecture...

      Somehow people managed without instant communication for millions of years, but now people can't go half an hour without their electronic pacifier.

    3. Re:Cost? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      People also managed without clean water or indoor plumbing for millions of years. What's your point?

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    4. Re:Cost? by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Thanks for proving my point. You consider a distractive toy as important to you as sanitation.

    5. Re:Cost? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      I consider the ability to tap into the sum total of human knowledge instantly to be as important as sanitation, yes. For one, if there's something I need to know about sanitation, I can find out -- in seconds.

      Your original point, if I understand it, was that people "managed" -- WTF does that mean, "managed"? What did they manage to do? I doubt very much that they managed to communicate instantly with people on the other side of the planet -- in fact, geographical isolation naturally led to xenophobia, for millions of years.

      I don't think computers are always needed, and I don't use it for distracting purposes in class -- if I'm on my computer, I'm taking notes, looking up something relevant, or trying out the example code from the board. I'm not on IM, and I don't have a Facebook account, and I put it away if pencil and paper would be better for the topic at hand.

      But I'm frankly quite surprised by your luddite attitude here, since I have to imagine you're posting this yourself. I know I've heard of professors who got their email printed out for them so they didn't have to learn to use email, but I wouldn't imagine these same professors would learn to use Slashdot.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  29. Re:Test with no collaboration and no open book / g by hedwards · · Score: 1

    Depends upon the field of study. I had an O Chem prof that took that position. We were allowed to bring in as many books as we liked, as many pages of notes as we liked and any other resources. The only things we couldn't use were the other students and the internet.

    The reason being that in the real world, chemists look things up constantly, nobody is expected to know everything, and with a field of any complexity they won't know everything.

  30. Re:Test with no collaboration and no open book / g by Musicologynut · · Score: 1

    Because the internet has all the answers: every right and wrong one. According to google, a "string quartet" is a type of musical form (it's not). Some things require that you look them up, and part of that challenge is being able to find the places that have information that is complete, accurate, and up-to-date. There are also things that you just have to know cold. Unfortunately, most people seem to play at the research thing without actually being able to do legitimate research.

  31. but when they reuse last years test and call it ch by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    but when they reuse last years test and call it cheating to use the old one as a study guide.

  32. if they are paying people to memorize the test the by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    if they are paying people to memorize the test then that shows that the test is to much based on memorizing stuff and will be better off being made so its more hands on.

  33. Government workers? by zmollusc · · Score: 1

    I presume, since cheating on the exam shows a disregard for rules and a willingness to lie to gain advantage over others, they will now be fast-tracked onto the management course?

    --
    They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
  34. I am from the "other" culture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And I can tell you, first hand, that the parent is correct !

    In other parts of the world, it is the sheepskin which talks the loudest.

    No matter how qualified (or the lack of) the applicant of the job is, the company will, 90% of the time, hire the one with the "best" sheepskin.

    That's the fact of life in many many parts in this world we are living.

    And that is why many 3rd world countries remain 3rd world, for so long.

  35. Re:Test with no collaboration and no open book / g by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 1

    Google: define: string quartet. What's wrong here?

  36. ROR! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Me so solly! Me frappy dickie! Ah, so! Ah, so!

  37. Re:but when they reuse last years test and call it by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Does this actually happen that much in America that it comes up on every slashdot story about testing and examinations? My university actively encouraged students to look at past exams. They made all of them for all subjects available online.

  38. Klingons on the starboard bow by Benson+Arizona · · Score: 1

    It is pretty impressive that Taiwan has police officers who even know what a spectrum analyser is!

    However, it is surprising that the candidates didn't know that they could disguise their transmissions by matching their carrier modulation to the warp signature - surely everyone knows that.

  39. The irony of exams and focusing on "cheating" etc. by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    http://patapata.sourceforge.net/WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html
    "Ultimately, educational technology's greatest value is in supporting "learning on demand" based on interest or need which is at the opposite end of the spectrum compared to "learning just in case"
    based on someone else's demand. Compulsory schools don't usually traffic in "learning on demand", for the most part leaving that kind of activity to libraries or museums or the home or business or the "real world". In order for compulsory schools to make use of the best of educational technology and what is has to offer, schools themselves must change. ... So, there is more to the story of technology than it failing in schools. Modern information and manufacturing technology itself is giving compulsory schools a failing grade. Compulsory schools do not pass in the information age. They are no longer needed. What remains is just to watch this all play out, and hopefully guide the collapse of compulsory schooling so that the fewest people get hurt in the process. ..."

    A larger elaboration on that theme:
        http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  40. MC (selected response) tests aren't all bad by spopepro · · Score: 1

    I agree that cheating (as an aside, I actually prefer using lying, as cheating seems to have less weight these days) is a major problem, but I don't think you have it right about testing. Selected response assessments (common name: multiple choice) are still very valuable, and are indeed one of the best ways to assess a wide range of skills or knowledge. The fact that they are easy to score is a bonus, but more because it allows for deeper statistical analysis of items, strands and a means of comparing performance across many classes, schools, years, etc.

    It would be more accurate to say that selected response assessments are overused, abused and frequently fail to meet the minimum standards for quality. However, this isn't the fault of the format, but the writers and people who use them. Performance based assessments (common name: project based, problem based assessment) still suffer from many problems: poor problem writing, unclear or incomplete scoring rubrics, bias in scoring, and more. Also, they are poor to determine the extend of student understanding. For instance, if you understand and can apply 80% of the subject material, but the second step of 20 for the solution is in the 20% you don't know, this scores as only completing 10% of the entire problem.

    For a complete understanding of what a student knows, understands, has mastery of and can utilize, a variety of assessments are needed in a variety of formats. No single format is sufficient.

  41. Not completely true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FTA:

    > Spectrum analyzers cannot conclusively identify specific phone users...

    Strictly this isn't quite true (I used to work for HP T&M/Agilent). They actually can.

    There are add-on modules to most high-end spectrum analyzers that let you completely decode cellular signals all the way down to burping out the entire raw data exchange of cell tower set-up to full MMS/SMS traffic. It's pretty trivial actually.

    How do people imagine cell phones get tested in the factories?

    Why do you suspect the #1 buyer of high-end spectrum analyzers has always been government intelligence agencies?