Crunch Time For WebOS, BlackBerry

GMGruman writes "Hewlett-Packard is planning to unveil its Palm WebOS strategy in a few weeks, while RIM is allegedly working up a new version of its popular Curve that uses the new BlackBerry OS 6 and its touch interface. WebOS has largely faded from view since HP bought it nine months ago, and RIM's been largely silent since its summer release of the BlackBerry Torch, its first successful modern BlackBerry, and the fall announcement of its PlayBook tablet. Meanwhile, it's been an Apple iOS and Google Android show at CES 2011, in the popular press, and in customers' hands. (Microsoft and Nokia essentially ceased to matter by Christmas 2010.) Is it too late for WebOS and BlackBerry? They're running out of time, and the public signs of their plans are not so positive. Still, the two 'also-ran' mobile OSes have a couple opportunities to resurrect themselves."

Comments

Not too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha! "Microsoft and Nokia essentially ceased to matter by Christmas 2010" --- dream on my friend

On a serious note - I dont think its too late to come back for WebOS and RIM. WebOS is a robust and smooth OS that was sabotaged by Palm's mishandling. And as far as crackberry they have a strong enough market presense to take their time

Re:Not too late!

[the linux geek]

Yeah, saying that the #1 manufacturer of smartphones "ceased to matter" is pretty epic.

Re:Not too late!

[postbigbang]

Let's see.

Big WebOS and Blackberry web stores with 100s of thousands of apps. Nope.

Cult status of the phone itself. Nope.

People across the world waiting up at stores for the next release, or waiting to upgrade their operating systems with glee. Nope.

Vast ecosystem of accessorizers, weird add-ons, and wicked strange looking cases. Nope.

I'll admit that WebOS is kind of kewl, and you can't deny the crack nature of Blackberries, but you can get that crack in droid and iOS. So, I don't think the poster is dreaming.

Re:Not too late!

[colmore]

A whoooole lot of the market is conservative, old, never reads tech news, and has very limited interest in apps. The people who line up at 4:00 AM are good press, but they don't actually count any more than any other consumer.

Blackberry has a market that is wary of switching. If they're smart they should be able to survive and grow.

Re:Not too late!

[sarysa]

Nokia has ceased to matter in the states, but I agree with your sentiment. TFA has an extremely American bent.

Re:Not too late!

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Nokia's the phone equivalent to GM. #1 in sales globally, sure, but, who's making waves in the industry? Who's dictating where things go? It's certainly NOT GM. And it's certainly not Nokia.

Re:Not too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's like saying the British Empire dominates the world ...in 1945. That may have been true at that time but anyone intelligent could see where things were heading.

Re:Not too late!

[postbigbang]

RIM might relinquish their market share more slowly, it's true. Palm has a fanclub, too. And they've been mightily eclipsed by wickedly powerful phones that are getting more talented seemingly every month. If you look at the actual counts of new smartphone purchasers, and there are plentiful numbers, Android and Apple are getting the lion's share of market growth and conversions. This is growth, not retention.

Rotary phones were cool, too. Then those touch-tone thingies arrived and the market moved. Palm, Nokia, RIM, and even Microsoft are getting dusted. Each of these four had their smartphone offerings, and each of these four is getting pounded, and mightily because they haven't evolved their communities and brand loyalty.

Re:Not too late!

[PCM2]

Yeah, except for the part about BlackBerry being an "also-ran OS," when in fact BlackBerry is still the leading smartphone platform in the U.S.

Re:Not too late!

[PCM2]

RIM has always enjoyed customer loyalty comparable only to Apple's. They don't call them "CrackBerrys" for nothing. But it's precisely because of this that they face a tough challenge: They need to evolve their product fast enough to keep up with the other smartphone platforms, but they can't change it so much that they alienate their hardcore base. RIM may have leaned too far toward conservatism, though, because their current figures show most of their new subscribers are coming from the lower-end handsets in their product range. That suggests the more savvy consumers with more money to spend are wandering off to iPhone and Android, which is bad, because "business types" represented RIM's hardcore demographic.

Re:Not too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

Research in Motion (RIM) is supposedly developing a new operating system for the BlackBerry devices based on QNX. If only RIM would design BlackBerrys with upgradable system RAM thereby avoiding premature outdating of functional devices. The constant grind to design and produce new devices is a disservice to the consumer.

Re:Not too late!

[BlueStraggler]

Yeah, saying that the #1 manufacturer of smartphones "ceased to matter" is pretty epic.

They "matter" if they are charting the course of the industry, which they clearly are not. Not in the USA, not in Japan, not even in Finland. The fact that they continue to sell lots of phones and make money does not "matter" to anyone except to their shareholders. And I'm pretty sure that Nokia shareholders are not too happy right now--their stock is trading around $10 from a high of $40 a couple years ago. Their executives publicly admit that they have been clobbered by the iPhone revolution, and they still have no real plan for dealing with it.

Re:Not too late!

[postbigbang]

Even the hardcore are taking a hard look at what you can do with other phones. Three months after the iPhone came out, it was forbidden in the board room, but everyone was curious anyway. Six months later, it was the counter-culture thing to have there, along with your CrackBerry. Then the Crackberry was pulled out less and less. The carrier-captive stupidity stopped a few more.

When you look at Droid 2 from Moto, or any one of a hundred other models, it does a lot of work, with a fat community of apps and support. iOS made itself the one to beat, or at least look kewl up against. RIM has tried to remarket the BB in this direction, but so far, it hasn't captured the imagination necessary to reignite sales and get growth. Failing something truly amazing and a community re-think/re-do, the business types aren't going to look at RIM first, but they'll still look.

Re:Not too late!

[drunken-yeti]

I think Blackberries being replaced in the enterprise enviroment is about as liklly as Gmail replacing Outlook. Blackberries have their niche and they are very secure in that niche.

Re:Not too late!

[jonbryce]

I don't think Nokia are the no 1 manufacturer of smart phones. They are certainly the No 1 manufacturer of £10 pay as you go budget phones, but that leaves them competing with Chinese manufacturers such as ZTE and INQ.

Re:Not too late!

[jonbryce]

I'd say it is about as likely as Outlook 2010 replacing Outlook 2003. Exchange's remote management features are getting better all the time, and Android's support for them is getting better all the time.

Re:Not too late!

[dangitman]

I think Blackberries being replaced in the enterprise enviroment is about as liklly as Gmail replacing Outlook.

Which is what our medium-large company has just done. Don't you know Google has been offering corporate/institutional services for quite a while?

Re:Not too late!

[node 3]

Blackberry is fading. Android's rise has been largely at the expense of Blackberry. Their current offerings are not compelling, and their only reliable user base are those stuck in the past. Basing the success of your product on such a market segment isn't wise (which is why they are working so hard to come up with a good touch/tablet system).

Blackberry is heading the way of PalmOS and/or Amiga. A system stuck in the past, with some vocal people that will stick around a bit longer than is otherwise reasonable.

The same goes for Nokia, except they don't even really have a cogent game plan. Maybe worldwide there is some compelling reason to buy a Nokia smartphone, but in the US, anyone considering Nokia would be far better served by Android (iPhone users wouldn't really be looking into Nokia in the first place).

MS has been lapped, two+ years ago. They have a long way to get back into the race, and it doesn't seem likely. MS can't out-geek Google or out-design Apple, so it's extremely difficult to see who their target audience is supposed to be.

Everything interesting going on in the handheld market right now is going on in Android and iOS. The rest are just footnotes.

Re:Not too late!

[h4rr4r]

We have replaced all but the last few, Android and iPhones are what are replacing them. The Verizon iPhone means we are going to replace about half of what we had left. RIM is living on borrowed time.

Re:Not too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

Big WebOS and Blackberry web stores with 100s of thousands of apps. Nope.

I want my shovelware and iFart clones!

Re:Not too late!

[kurt555gs]

Except the guy behind Nokia's Maemo, left Nokia and is now in charge of WebOS for HP. Nokia is the one that is screwed stuck between a good but aging Symbian that they just took back to proprietary, the useless Chinese made MeeGo that may work on Intel hardware but is internally sabotaged on ARM, and the new Nokia overlord from Microsoft about to ditch everything and make all Nokia's Windows fone 7 handsets that no one will want.

Sux to be Nokia right now.

Re:Not too late!

[sarhjinian]

Nokia's smartphones don't matter. They sell a lot of handsets, but those handsets see little or no app development and contribute, per unit, very little margin. They're number one, but in an irrelevant way.

And I say this as a past owner of several handsets and an erstwhile fan. Nokia has no PC-side leverage like Microsoft, lacks the enterprise management tools that BlackBerry does, and has nothing like the developer momentum of Android or iOS. The phones and the core functionality are solid, but the UI is still clunky (as of Symbian^3), the applications often buggy or sub-par, the developer direction highly unclear (so is it Symbian this week? Maemo/Meego/Waytogo? Are we still pushing Ovi?) and so forth.

They've taken too long and frittered away too much opportunity, much like Motorola did before them. Mark my words, they're going to end up a maker of cheap, commodity phones, competing with LG and Samsung's low-ball offerings for the free-with-your-plan subscription. Or rather, they will until they start spinning off business units left, right and centre.

Re:Not too late!

[sarhjinian]

The problem isn't that they don't have a plan, it's that they have about five or six different plans, all half-baked, self-competing and receiving of little attention. The above comparison to General Motors is very apt.

Re:Not too late!

[Dynedain]

Exactly. At this point, BB's user base is primarily repeat customers, mostly those with corporate contracts and systems already in place. They aren't getting new users switching from other devices. Rather, it's the opposite. Much Android and iOS growth has come at the expense of BB and WinCE market share.

Re:Not too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

If there's any truth to this leak, it looks like BlackBerry may be turning a corner. Especially since RIM will start putting QNX on their new lineup. QNX is Posix, which means it's not too hard to port a JVM or other environments to it. Maybe even Mono? What does Apple have up its sleeve? Anything? Based on what Apple has released over the last few years, they seem like the ones standing still... just riding on their brand.

http://www.bgr.com/2011/01/14/exclusive-blackberry-storm-3-shows-up-tells-all/

Re:Not too late!

[DavidinAla]

That reply -- which is a popular one from fans of platforms without many apps -- is ignorant. It's true that there are some stupid apps, but there is an amazing diversity of very high quality apps for iOS -- and Android is way, way ahead of webOS and Blackberry in that regard, too.

Re:Not too late!

[Chaos Incarnate]

Blackberry has a huge install base. But how are they doing on new handset sales? I thought that those were pretty much in the gutter...

Re:Not too late!

[narcc]

They'll be back -- assuming they use their phone for doing actual work. If they're only using the extra functionality for playing 'angry birds', you may want to review your policy.

My brief flirtation with an iPhone left me begging for my BB within hours. It was fun, but I didn't need a toy phone.

While I'll agree that RIM's efforts to enter the 'individual' market have been a bit ham-fisted (Pearl, Storm, Style) their 'business' products have always been ahead of the curve when it comes to productivity.

The BB Torch is the exception, as it's remarkable as an "in between" product. It's like a higher-resolution iPhone 3GS that you can do actual work on. It's my current phone.

Having seen some of the new iPhone and Android products, I was disappointed at first that the Torch was technically underpowered and had a lower-resolution display. That feeling didn't last long as the touch pad and physical keyboard made tasks difficult to perform with a touch-screen only interface effortless. While my non-BB using colleagues struggle, I get things done.

Toss in Documents To Go and RIMs unparalleled email and messaging software and it's an easy sell.

That said, I'll likely trade in my Torch for the next phone in the Bold line. The touchscreen doesn't improve usability, the keyboard isn't as good as the Bold's, and the phone doesn't quite 'balance' right when the keyboard is out.

(I gave it a chance, but playtime is over. It's time to get back to work.)

I expect that once the novelty wears off you'll see people more away from the flashy toys and back to serious tools. This is where RIM and Palm really shine.

Don't count them out so quickly.

Re:Not too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

Blackberries are the only smart phone currently made in significant numbers with camera-less variants. That alone (government contracts, some private sector ones) keeps RIM in the game.

Re:Not too late!

[valdyn]

Nokia are Number 1 in smartphones, by far, above 30% market share for 2010. Contrary to popular believe their market share in smartphones is *bigger* than their market share in dumb phones. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-10/nokia-s-market-share-slips-below-30-as-smaller-vendors-grow-gartner-says.html

Re:Not too late!

[narcc]

RIMs 'consumer' offerings have been pretty weak. Their 'business' products, however, are as solid as ever.

That's really why I can't discount them. While the trend toward shiny touchscreen toy phones has pushed them to the margins, they still offer the best productivity tools in the market.

It's easy to get sucked into the flashy interface on products like the iPhone or Droid X, it's novel, it's new, and let's them do more than any 'feature phone' they've had in the past. It's no wonder they're not attracted to the 'boring' models RIM and Palm are offering.

But as users start to do more with their phones, they're going to start to expect usability to improve -- and that's when no amount of additional 'shiny' is going to make the sale.

Making users more productive is where RIM really excels -- it's why they were the untouchable leader in smartphones for so many years.

In it's day, Palm built it's reputation on improving the productivity of it's users. With few exceptions, it's products out-shined competitors with technically superior systems. If HP managed to retain some of that expertise, you can expect users will find Palms future offerings quite attractive.

Re:Not too late!

[smi.james.th]

One thing you may not have noticed... GM isn't even NEARLY no. 1 when it comes to cars... that spot belongs either to Toyota or Volkswagen.

Nokia have got their top spot for a good reason, and they probably won't move for a while. The reason is that the whole world doesn't really want $500 shiny toys which make you a big target for thieves and a new one that's better is coming out in 6 months. Here in South Africa, for example, you can buy a Nokia 1200 for the equivalent of US$40. They consistently have good, affordable phones which last a long time. I've used Nokias my whole life, I've mostly gotten them after my parents have finished with them, my previous one (an N95) lasted 5 years before it became unuseable, and that was mostly due to it being in my pocket when I was out in the rain... it got soaked... But back to my point, America and Western Europe's obsession with powerful expensive smartphones isn't representative of the rest of the world's needs.

Re:Not too late!

[schnell]

But as users start to do more with their phones, they're going to start to expect usability to improve -- and that's when no amount of additional 'shiny' is going to make the sale.

"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Having used all the mobile OSes in this discussion extensively (except Symbian), I can say that it's very misleading to make a blanket claim that users will necessarily find iOS and Android lacking when they "start to do more" with their phones or that "usability" will suffer. BlackBerry OS offers a tremendous depth of functionality and usability - for a certain set of tasks. If you are in an enterprise environment, and you want things like easy intranet access, fine-grained IT administrator control over devices, viewing of other users' Exchange free/busy calendars, keyboard shortcuts out the wazoo ... then BlackBerry OS has no serious rival, and yes you will find the other OSes lacking in features and "usability." If, however, you are not a hardcore business user and/or are looking for things like a wealth of app availability, media playback features/integration, fast/responsive device UI, et cetera - then iOS and Android are going to provide much better "usability." It's more than a little condescending to dismiss iOS and Android as competing only on "shiny" ... they do certain things very very well that RIM doesn't, and vice versa.

So let a thousand mobile OS flowers bloom and all that blithering Maoist claptrap. Each platform does at least one thing better than any of the others do, and that platform is best for you if that thing is what you care about most.

Re:Not too late!

[JabberWokky]

Wait, are you talking about Palm or RIM?

(wait for it... wait for it... *rimshot*!)

Re:Not too late!

[jaseuk]

They need to evolve their product fast enough to keep up with the other smartphone platforms, but they can't change it so much that they alienate their hardcore base. RIM may have leaned too far toward conservatism

Blackberry's conservatism gives RIM a huge advantage not enjoyed by any other smartphone vendor. The Blackberry at least in the UK is the only government approved mobile operating system that is certified for use for anything above unclassified.

The only reason why Microsoft / Apple / Google etc. could not also join this party is that their platform changes faster than accreditation could be granted. If RIM started wholesale quick changes, then they'd risk losing this large worldwide market.

Jason.

Re:Not too late!

[NuShrike]

While, the drivers of the market are the unconservative, new, reads tech news, and has a large interest in apps.

Why? Because they're the repeat buyers! They're the ones that keep coming back to buy the latest trend, evangelize and advise their more conservative and unconnected friends, and are the strange-attractors voting with their wallets.

It's like the false argument that only the mainstream video game players matter, not the hardcore. Well again, the hardcore are the repeat buyers and drive the narrative and the news. The Wii may have been the mainstream attractor, but it's the hardcore on the 360 and the PS3 that's driving the 3rd party games.

Re:Not too late!

[TripHammer]

None of that crap matters to most BB users - myself included. A clean, consistent UI, outstanding keyboard, and second-to-none messaging support keep me coming back. The minute I loose one of those all the apps in the world don't amount to a hill of beans.

Re:Not too late!

[inasity_rules]

Though, their new n8 is very nice... With a 12Mpixel camera...

Re:Not too late!

[smi.james.th]

I must admit, when I saw previews of the new N8 I was pretty much drooling... It has much more appeal to me than any Android or iOS device.

That's just my personal preference though.

Re:Not too late!

[inasity_rules]

I'm speaking from experience; I bought it on contract. Much nicer than my friend's Galaxy 9000s. And much more stable it seems. Android isn't quite as mature as symbian and seems to require a bigger processor to get the same performance... Still some of the UI isn't perfect.. You can't have everything I guess.

Speaking of the older phones, my nokia 1100 went through a washing machine and still works(new battery was all I needed). Nokia have a very well deserved reputation for solid well built phones. I hardly think they're irrelevant. They seem to build the toughest phones out.

Re:Not too late!

[Builder]

It's been 4 years... if the iPhone novelty was going to wear off, it would have done so by now. Instead, many people are making phones to compete with the iPhone instead of the blackberry now.

Re:Not too late!

[DrXym]

The problem isn't that they don't have a plan, it's that they have about five or six different plans, all half-baked, self-competing and receiving of little attention. The above comparison to General Motors is very apt.

Nokia had a plan, it was called Symbian. Then they had another plan called Meego. All tied together in knots with an online service called Ovi. I think they really don't know what they're doing. Meanwhile companies like HTC, Motorola, Sony & Samsung are kerb stomping them with Android devices and of course Apple is too.

Re:Not too late!

[Targon]

The problem that Palm had(prior to the HP buyout), was primarily the lack of advertising and hype surrounding their Pre and Pixi phones. Very very little effort was put in to create the "you MUST have this device" feel that you saw backing the iPhone and "Droid" phones. As a result, the sales numbers were not very good, and a lack of follow-up advertising continued the trend. The initial quality on the Sprint version of the Pre(exclusive through the end of 2009) also left a lot to be desired, even though the device itself really did deserve credit for innovation.

Most people have never heard that induction charging came with the original Palm Pre when it launched, needing only a back cover to support it. That Touchstone back was included with the Pre Plus for both Verizon and AT&T. What this means is you don't have to plug in your phone to charge it. That alone would have gotten the phone a second look by many casual users who don't really NEED a terribly high end phone. The core design being about having your data synced to either Yahoo or Google without needing a computer to back up your information also would draw in many people if they knew about it. While this functionality is available via apps for other devices, the Palm WebOS devices started out with that functionality built in.

Without all the hype, the iPhone would NOT be nearly as popular as it is, and the same goes for Android. They would have their followings, but Verizon has hyped the hell out of the "Droid" phones, which is the primary reason so many people have purchased them. I am not putting down these phones, but the vast majority of iPhone users do not use the phone as more than a combination of phone and iPod. Android also may draw in the technical crowd, but the general public wouldn't consider buying an Android device if advertising and retail sales people were not pushing these products to back up the very expensive advertising.

Re:Not too late!

[sznupi]

Taking into account how often people seem to complain here about lack of solid network coverage of US carriers, that's already one major thing where those people could often be better served by some random Nokia phone...

Re:Not too late!

[sznupi]

So let a thousand mobile OS flowers bloom and all that blithering Maoist claptrap.

Unfortunately people love victors (preferably their chosen ones); assume the situation must mirror, eventually, the share of desktop platforms ... while there's nothing wrong with roughly equal shares of few players / web browsers recently show how it might be very well better.

Re:Not too late!

[sznupi]

There is something like "good enough" selection though. OTOH - how many UIs for single webpage do we need? (mobile Safari and Chrome suddenly not good enough?) How many e-books and audiobooks packaged as single app? (instead of being a data file) How many UIs for one web radio station? (instead of opening stream)

Re:Not too late!

[sznupi]

Perhaps you didn't thought through one destrciption, one slightly standing out.

"Conservative" buyers get what they're used to, with what they feel comfortable. "Unconservative" follow new toys. Now, which fits more "repeat buyers"?

BTW, how does that evangelization works out with slashdotters and Linux adoption?

Re:Not too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your love for BB and suggestions that you can't work on a touch screen smartphone just date you. Or maybe it's the COBOL sig.

Re:Not too late!

[Dog-Cow]

How many shit posters who can't understand that, while there is a lot of crap, there are also hundreds or thousands of very useful apps?

I don't know the answer, but you prove there's at least one.

Re:Not too late!

[sznupi]

Indeed, one who believes it's hundreds of thousands... (and FYI, I'm pretty certain a mobile phone / app platform I have around has at least in the range of iOS or Android - we'll see if you can figure out which one yourself / do better than self-absorbed pundits)

Re:Not too late!

[r_jensen11]

The iPhone hasn't been established in the enterprise for very long, though. I agree with the consensus here that corporate users will prefer a physical keyboard over a touch-screen keyboard. Every enterprise has too many acronyms and made-up words that aren't in Apple's spell-check, and the only way that anyone can send an SMS on the iphone is by heavily relying on the auto-correct function. Take that away and emails will be even more difficult to follow.

Re:Not too late!

[h4rr4r]

People who use blackberries don't do actual work, they go to meetings.

Re:Not too late!

[Idbar]

Did you notice you just compared adult people to teenagers, which are the actual people that go in line at 4am to get tickets to the next Justin Beaver concert?

I have an android, and works for me (and I got it for free). I'm sure there's tons of people that actually carefully review what they need, instead of going with the "wave". And while kids' happy meals are something with a large market (and tantrums included), there's actually other market of people that look through for an actual meal and not just the toy.

Re:Not too late!

[sglewis100]

The BB Torch is the exception, as it's remarkable as an "in between" product. It's like a higher-resolution iPhone 3GS that you can do actual work on. It's my current phone.

Torch: 3.2" 480 x 320 pixel screen
iPhone 3GS: 3.5" 480 x 320 pixel screen

Granted the Torch is 20 ppi denser, but it's by virtue of the smaller screen not a super increased resolution. PS: I've done "actual work" on my iPhone.

Re:Not too late!

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

GM was #1 as of '09. So I'm a few years off. They're still #2.

That wasn't my point. My point was, "Who's driving innovation? Who's driving the market?"

It's not Nokia.

Re:Not too late!

[node 3]

Nokia phones come with their own cell towers?

Re:Not too late!

[sznupi]

You assume all cellular radio modules (and Nokia is heavily involved in making their own) are created equal? That all mobile phones are generally equal in reception?

(it's somewhat fun being in some valley in the mountains, where most nearby smartphones of new types have major issues (admittedly a small sample) / at best SMS goes through, while my inexpensive 1208 (a backup phone basically, also for such occasions) shows most bars and performs accordingly)

Re:Not too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't be serious.

Take a good look at the N8 and then try to say this with a straight face. That's possibly the best keyboardless phone money can buy today, and easily the best one in its price range. Don't you see even Americans comparing the N8 to the iPhone 4, even though the N8 costs about half as much?

Then, look at things like giving free, offline GPS voice navigation for every customer. Isn't that driving the market (or at least driving TomTom and Garmin out of the market)? Who was the first to develop a 100% open source mobile OS that actually works, leading the innovation that lead to WebOS and Android? Who has a phone that actually can use 3G roaming to every network on the planet? And before you say it, that isn't easy. If it was, it would never have been a problem.

Saying Nokia doesn't matter in the mobile ecosystem just utterly stupid, just like saying that Linux doesn't matter in the Free Software/Open Source ecosystem. People only do it either because it wasn't invented by them and they're jealous, or because it's cool to hate on the leader, or maybe for sheer ignorance.

Re:Not too late!

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Take a good look at the N8 and then try to say this with a straight face. That's possibly the best keyboardless phone money can buy today, and easily the best one in its price range. Don't you see even Americans comparing the N8 to the iPhone 4, even though the N8 costs about half as much?

I can. And I have. The software that it runs blows. Even if the hardware is incredible. Even if they packed a CPU that chugged along like an i7 and sipped power like an ARM Cortex.

Yes, Americans are comparing the iPhone 4 with the N8, but, those are also the gadget obsessed geeks. Not the average lay user. To the average lay user, Nokia's shit stinks. The phone's hardware features are held back by the lousy software.

(The N8 is only $100 cheaper; and boy does it show).

Then, look at things like giving free, offline GPS voice navigation for every customer. Isn't that driving the market (or at least driving TomTom and Garmin out of the market)? Who was the first to develop a 100% open source mobile OS that actually works, leading the innovation that lead to WebOS and Android? Who has a phone that actually can use 3G roaming to every network on the planet? And before you say it, that isn't easy. If it was, it would never have been a problem.

Symbian went open source in '08. Android has been open source since 2007.

Also, doing Quadband isn't that big of a deal for most users. Most people won't travel from the UK or Europe to the US and viceaversa. Yes, the carrier lock thing stinks to high hell, but, no one's disputing that it's easy, but is it necessary for most users?

Saying Nokia doesn't matter in the mobile ecosystem just utterly stupid, just like saying that Linux doesn't matter in the Free Software/Open Source ecosystem. People only do it either because it wasn't invented by them and they're jealous, or because it's cool to hate on the leader, or maybe for sheer ignorance.

So prove it. What about Nokia is similar to Linux?

Re:Not too late!

[node 3]

You assume all cellular radio modules (and Nokia is heavily involved in making their own) are created equal? That all mobile phones are generally equal in reception?

I'm assuming nothing of the sort. You, however, are assuming Nokia has superior reception. This is something that can be quantified (although with a ton of caveats), and often is quantified. If it were the case that Nokia (or any other handset maker) were consistently outclassing the rest of the industry in terms of reception quality, it would be trumpeted.

Just snarkily saying that Nokia gets better reception, then providing a small anecdotal example set in an extreme situation does not really justify the assertion behind it. US cell service isn't criticized because one Nokia phone gets better reception in a particular valley than a handful of other phones.

I know I'm probably taking your remark more seriously than it was originally intended, so don't take my replies all that seriously either.

Re:Not too late!

[sznupi]

If only that was about one anecdotal example...

But no, really, they tend to be more dependable in this regard (just to be clear: when going up the price chain within their offer, the probability of encountering slightly less dependable models does increase / it's also not all roses; but even there it seems to be better)

Mountainous example was simply the only time I bothered to notice effects of marginal reception, it's quite rare at my place (curiosity to check it when a small nearby group, also with newfangled smartphone types, had some problems / how nowadays people seem to go to the mountains to call somebody and say "guess where I am?" is another, much more serious and disturbing issue)

Article

[Anonymous Coward]

Print version of the article is much easier to read: http://www.infoworld.com/print/148576

Re:Article

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.infoworld.com/148576

Premature to write off Microsoft

[SuperKendall]

I think it's early days to say Microsoft can get back in the game or not (though I agree Nokia is probably going to end up running Android someday).

Microsoft still has a lot of money to throw at vendors and then there's the aspect of them suing vendors who use Android for patents that Microsoft holds - I believe Balmer has said publically that "Android is not free" for that reason. That is a strategy that may even out Android/WP7 marketshare, plus WP7 is a very polished endeavor.

I'm rooting for WebOS to find a foothold somehow...

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[jmorris42]

> I'm rooting for WebOS to find a foothold somehow...

Why? What does it offer? PalmOS had a lot to offer in its day, small, sleek, resource efficient in a way no Linux could hope to be, as open as possible without going whole hog FS/OS, etc. But now that it is mutated into WebOS? Does anyone think HP has the mojo to make it a player even if it is a technical winner?

I'll root a little for Meego but realize there are almost certainly doomed. The hope of the world to remain free from the RDF is on a half assed Java clone. Shudder.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

The hope of the world to remain free from the RDF is on a half assed Java clone.

*rolls eyes* Oh please.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[Junta]

So I have a WebOS phone. I find the multi-tasking interface and frankly the menu for quick changes to the radio highly enjoyable. I took it for granted until I tried to navigate around on an Android phone. WebOS (and Blackberry is imitating it on Playbook) has a great way to interact with concurrently running apps and switching between them in full screen mode. The radio menu I didn't think was special, then I found myself working on an Android phone and having to jump out of the menu to go to system settings to do something with bluetooth that was much more immediately accessible on my Pre. Also, surprisingly, my phone had LEAP wireless support out of the gate and my peers were having to try to hand hack wpa_supplicant.conf to get the function out of their Android handsets, that didn't work out of the box. WebOS 2 has Cisco Anyconnect support baked in, but Android is not there yet either. The messaging app does a good job of putting everything (SMS, AIM, jabber, whatever) in one coherent interface.

From an API perspective, they completely screwed up by *not* having the 'PDK' from the get go. They foolishly thought Javascript+HTML5 was 'good enough', with no camera api, no microphone api, no 3D api. Their hardware features crappy, fixed-focus cameras. They rectified mostly the software side, with a nice OpenGL+SDK that makes it trivial to port linux apps (and evidentally iOS), but desperately need decent hardware. One thing they did *almost* just right was the integration of inductiive charging into the experience. They should never have had a non-capable back part, they should have had third-party access (added in WebOS 2), and they should have officially blessed a car-oriented usage of the technology.

So the big thing is they nailed the UI. On the surface, however, the 'big names' that created that have been poached. It's hard to say what will happen now. Microsoft and Google do have the disadvantage that they can't dictate every nth detail to the handset makers, which gives Blackberry, HP, and, of course, Apple, an interesting advantage for the most seamless experience. Apple's vision is clear and I'm not a fan of it myself, so I like an alternative. Palm came closest, but I don't know how Honeycomb, WebOS 2, and the next wave of Blackberry devices will pan out.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[LurkerXXX]

Why? What does it offer?

An excellent user experience.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[jcr]

>Microsoft still has a lot of money to throw at vendors

Frankly, I think MS really shot themselves in the foot with that "Zune" business, because it showed all the vendors who were participating in the "plays for sure" program that MS would drop them like a rock if they found it convenient to do so. If you're a handset maker today, and your options are Windows phone 7 or Android, what is there that MS brings to the table? You get to pay MS for the software, and get what? The halo effect of jumping on a bandwagon that stalled out years ago?

-jcr

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[SuperKendall]

You get to pay MS for the software, and get what?

A billion dollar check?

Just sayin'.

Microsoft already has relationships with a lot of these hardware makers and can probably lean on them to achieve parity with Android. I agree it seems like they might not have much to offer technically over Android, but they have some many tentacles in everything they can use to get in the right places...

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[SuperKendall]

Honestly Junta gave a much better explanation that I could. But I wanted to add one thing...

I always thought there was room for a number of different mobile OS experiences. But to me Android and iOS are, from a user standpoint, rather similar... what I liked about WebOS was that in did in fact seem to have some very different ideas. So my support of WebOS is based on wanting to see variety in a mobile ecosystem, instead of convergence to a single GUI standard.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[h4rr4r]

Even out?

No Fucking way. This is MS doing the only thing they can anymore rent-seek. WP7 is stillborn.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[h4rr4r]

I have all that crap on my top menu bar on my droid. Slide it down and turn on or off whatever radio stuff I want. I do think that the typical user never touches that stuff.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[Yoshamano]

As a happy Palm Pre owner I wanted to echo the parent's view on webOS. A friend of mine who just recently switched from a Pre to an EVO comments on how tight the core OS is on the Pre compared to his EVO. He'd still be using his Pre if the hardware wasn't sub-par and the app selection wasn't lacking.

All of this reminds me a lot of BeOS. Superior from a technical standpoint. Lacking a development base and userbase coupled with market forces working strongly against it.

Hopefully webOS 2.0 (or in my case, 2.1) and the Palm Pre 2 are where webOS's and BeOS's stories part ways. If not, I imagine these things will resemble BeOS R5, an amazing piece of software far ahead of its time that quickly morphed into Be Inc.'s swan song.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[node 3]

It's hardly encouraging when the top thing one can come up with in praise of WebOS is that it has a great task switcher.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that it needed a task manager (to switch among multiple running tasks) already makes it better than iOS at the time (and by that I mean the time when some people were mentioning WebOS a bit)

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[NicknamesAreStupid]

I've been saying this for a year -- Microsoft buys RIM in Q4 2011 for $30B. Remember, you heard it here first.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[node 3]

Only in one particular way, almost a year ago. Are you trying to find a way to heap even weaker praise on WebOS than Junta did?

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[alvinrod]

If you're HTC and had to come to some form of arrangement with Microsoft over the patens Microsoft alleged HTC was infringing upon, it might not actually be any cheaper to put Android on your handsets. Now that HTC is taken care of, they've started going after other big Android manufacturers.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, I'm not really a fan of it myself. And thanks for pointing out that it was almost a year ago. I couldn't remember exactly how long it's been, so I just said "at the time," but now I know it was almost a year ago.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[rboatright]

No, actually, you don't.

That's the thing that people who haven't actually used webOS devices don't "get." You do not have what webOS gives you.

In attempting to use android devices over the last few months, I become more and more frustrated at the UI. I'm in a news app, it links out to a web page and I'm in a browser and there's -no way- to get back to the news app without closing the browser. It's running on a computer platform more powerful than my desktop was just a few years ago, and it can't have multiple windows open at the same time? Bah. Humbug.

WebOS provides a seamless user interface. Android and IOS both are cut up into little pieces. It's very frustrating to be in a twitter app, and have a message come in, and a phone call, and no way to select which app I want to go back to, even if the OS didn't put the apps not on screen on hold instead of letting them continue to run in the background.

On webos, I can have a video running in a minimized card while I have a phone call going on, while I have a twiiter app updating, and flip between them easily. Now, I know that the average user isn't going to have the 10 or 12 windows I leave open on my Palm Pre + all the time, but the people I know who own them who are NOT geeks love the UI and mutter and mumble angrily when they're confined to android and Ios phones.

HP has a lot of work to do to get that fact into the publics mind, but webOS is by far the most USABLE portable operating system in the world. Is it somewhat short of apps as of today? Yep. Is it worth the effort? Yep.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[mobets]

Press and hold the home key to see the last 8 apps accessed. There is probably an app that add radio switches to the status bar.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[node 3]

The point being it's not now. Ergo, not relevant to WebOS's current value, as opposed to its historical value.

Might as well laud PalmOS over WP7, given how much better it was than WinCE at the time...

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[narcc]

. Now, I know that the average user isn't going to have the 10 or 12 windows I leave open on my Palm Pre + all the time, but the people I know who own them who are NOT geeks love the UI and mutter and mumble angrily when they're confined to android and Ios phones.

HP has a lot of work to do to get that fact into the publics mind, but webOS is by far the most USABLE portable operating system in the world. Is it somewhat short of apps as of today? Yep. Is it worth the effort? Yep.

The PP+ really is amazing in terms of usability, and it gets excellent mileage out of its lower-end hardware.

While went with the BB Torch instead of the PP+, it was definitely a tempting option. In terms of notifications and multitasking, WebOS is unmatched. You really don't know what your missing until you've tried it out for yourself.

If HP can get WebOS onto some fancier hardware, you'll find iOS and Android scrambling to play catch-up. (The UI really is that good.)

On a related note, it's also the only OS I've seen that looks like it would really shine on a tablet. If HP can avoid bungling their WebOS tablet Feb. 9th, it could very well be a game-changer.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[Junta]

That's the first place I tried on the Android handset. However, it gave me little more than simple on/off, whereas WebOS gave me a submenu of available devices to pair to immediately. I could not do that from the menu. When I needed more, the submenu took me straight to the correct application. The Android menu did nothing, and the owner had to tell me to run the settings application to find the stuff beyond the menu.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[Junta]

I agree it's hardly encouraging for the market in general that everyone else's is so poor that the feature comes as a great thing.

But if you are being disparaging on WebOS, it's a sign of the overall polish and consistent vision they brought forward. That vision may or may not have survived the HP acquisition, that remains to be seen, but it was a hell of a lot more consistent than Android has had to date (Honeycomb might rectify some of that). iOS also implement a consistent vision, but one I personally don't like.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[Junta]

The problem is that only Blackberry is actually bringing forth anything remotely like that (only seen in their playbook demos thusfar). Android and iOS still have crappy management that still fails to make the state of things intuitively obvious and concrete.

This is not merely historical because it *still* isn't fixed in the rest of the world. It may seem like a trivial thing to people who don't have it, but it's pretty damn annoying when it isn't there.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[sznupi]

I've heard Maemo being described as quite nice in this regard; and what little one could see of Meego, seems to be even better.

Of course it's probably in no better position than WebOS...

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[buchanmilne]

No, actually, you don't.

That's the thing that people who haven't actually used webOS devices don't "get." You do not have what webOS gives you.

So, there's *no* other phone OS that offers similar features to WebOS?

It's very frustrating to be in a twitter app, and have a message come in, and a phone call, and no way to select which app I want to go back to, even if the OS didn't put the apps not on screen on hold instead of letting them continue to run in the background.

On webos, I can have a video running in a minimized card while I have a phone call going on, while I have a twiiter app updating, and flip between them easily.

No problem on N900 / Maemo

Now, I know that the average user isn't going to have the 10 or 12 windows I leave open on my Palm Pre + all the time, but the people I know who own them who are NOT geeks love the UI and mutter and mumble angrily when they're confined to android and Ios phones.

Well, 10 or 12 windows is fine on Nokia's N900.

HP has a lot of work to do to get that fact into the publics mind, but webOS is by far the most USABLE portable operating system in the world.

Really? Have you tried Maemo (e.g N900) (or Meego)? It seems WebOS is getting Qt (which has Qt Web Run Time). Some apps (mostly games) for Web OS already run on N900 (Meamo on ARM).

Maybe WebOS will merge with Meego? Between them they may be able to create a big enough app market.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[garyebickford]

I've been milking my Treo long past its pull date - I bought it in 2007 IIRC - waiting to see how WebOS was going to pan out. Recently Verizon stopped supporting wireless sync (which I had running but wasn't really using), so I'm planning on a new phone soonish. Does anyone know if there are some good WebOS phones coming out along with the HP pad?

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[Anonymous Froward]

Because the usability of the feature you use every day doesn't count?

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[h4rr4r]

Yes, I do want a screen shot?

It is a pretty standard feature of the ROM I am running.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[node 3]

The problem is that only Blackberry is actually bringing forth anything remotely like that (only seen in their playbook demos thusfar). Android and iOS still have crappy management that still fails to make the state of things intuitively obvious and concrete.

I disagree with this with regards to iOS. iOS completely does away with the need for an Android style task manager because it does the management itself. The difference between running, suspended, and quit is negligible enough on iOS that the user never really needs to know the difference. I know this is a bit of a turn off to the geeks who like to be the complete master of their device. For those, they can either jailbreak or just buy an Android phone. But for the overwhelmingly vast majority of consumers, they are much better served by having an essentially invisible multitasking system than they are by one that has a need to be managed.

This is not merely historical because it *still* isn't fixed in the rest of the world.

My "historical" comment was to an AC's assertion that WebOS was better than iOS in one particular way.

It may seem like a trivial thing to people who don't have it, but it's pretty damn annoying when it isn't there.

Sort of. It's one thing, and it's not a particularly central thing to the system, its necessity is a side-effect. You don't have a task management system because you want it, but because it's necessary when trying to fully multitask on such limited hardware.

The fact that the one thing people seem to love about WebOS is its task management is telling. It's like highlighting the fact that it's easy to access the oil pan when asked why a specific car is so good. You'd think that if the phone/car where so good, you'd have more important things to highlight, and not just one single thing that is more about maintenance than anything else. Android's solution is to make maintenance completely open and exposed to the user (and thus makes maintenance something beyond most people), WebOS's solution is to make maintenance elegant, and Apple's solution is to make maintenance unnecessary.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[node 3]

Because the usability of the feature you use every day doesn't count?

Because the fact that you have to use the feature every day is a failure in the first place. It's not a primary feature, it's a feature that is required solely due to the negative side-effects of other features.

I prefer iOS's solution to this, which is to make that feature wholly unnecessary. I do realize that there is a type of geek that prefers to specifically manage this stuff themselves, and of those, there are some that will prefer Android's completely customizable way to do so, and others will prefer WebOS's more elegant way.

There are far, far more, however, who are better served by doing away with it altogether.

Re:Premature to write off Microsoft

[node 3]

I agree it's hardly encouraging for the market in general that everyone else's is so poor that the feature comes as a great thing.

It's a meta-feature. It's a feature that's a side-effect of a feature. It's not using your device, it's managing your ability to use your advice.

When someone says that the best thing about an OS is not what you directly do with it, but what you have to do in order to directly do things with it, you've missed something. That should be a footnote, not the primary highlight.

I agree that Android handles this very poorly (although in a very compelling way to a certain type of geek). iOS handles this by doing away with the necessity of such a feature altogether.

But if you are being disparaging on WebOS, it's a sign of the overall polish and consistent vision they brought forward.

I don't disagree all that much on this point, except that it's a very strange thing to promote as a primary feature of an OS.

That vision may or may not have survived the HP acquisition, that remains to be seen,

HP has a golden opportunity here. From a consumer perspective, I think a market where Android, WebOS, and iOS are all strong players (and Blackberry, Windows Phone, and the rest are all also-rans) will benefit pretty much every consumer-segment very well.

but it was a hell of a lot more consistent than Android has had to date (Honeycomb might rectify some of that). iOS also implement a consistent vision, but one I personally don't like.

I'm sure there are a good number of people with your similar preferences. For that reason, I hope HP does well with WebOS. The odds are somewhat long, though, given how long they've been without a product and how much momentum they've missed out on over the past year.

He's off in some strange place

[chriso11]

Here's an idea: HP can buy Windows Phone 7 from Microsoft for its nice UI and graft that onto WebOS's core -- after modernizing the core, of course.

First off, bad idea, and second, WebOS already has a modern core.

Re:He's off in some strange place

[bhartman34]

Here's an idea: HP can buy Windows Phone 7 from Microsoft for its nice UI and graft that onto WebOS's core -- after modernizing the core, of course.

First off, bad idea, and second, WebOS already has a modern core.

Absolutely! Not only does WebOS have a modern core, but it's also got a beautiful UI, in my opinion. What possible benefit could there be of creating some FrankenOS? (Palm users already suffered through that with Garnet.)

Re:He's off in some strange place

[Junta]

It gets worse as it goes. So first we say they need WP7 UI (which is the last UI I'd envy) on webOS core, but modernized (basically claiming the core is good, but not good at all... internally inconsistent), then goes on to say how HP needs to get away from Microsoft (the recommendation to 'buy' Windows Phone 7 UI seems to fly directly in the face of that.

What HP has to do is simple, and it might be too late. They need to release hardware that actually is on par with the industry (still no autofocus notably, and somewhat underpowerd CPU/GPU) and they need to basically continue the vision that was getting better on software (the HTML+Javascript *only* api was a disaster). With the brain-drain that obviously followed in the months after the acquisition, the webOS platform may be unsalvagable (*particularly* with a new CEO at HP pretty much explicitly saying the consumer space is less interesting).

Gems from the article

[the linux geek]

"Throw in the lack of apps (the PlayBook uses a new OS acquired from QNX, so developers must start over again) and the too-small seven-inch screen (which limits the kind of apps and data you can work with effectively), and you can see why the PlayBook doesn't appear all that compelling."

Sorry, but no. PlayBook is compatible with BBOS 6 software. And interestingly, the article doesn't complain about all the 7" Android tablets.

"If HP's hope is to leverage WebOS for its post-PC transition, it needs to stake that ground soon, while there is still ground to be claimed."

Post-PC? Please.

"Let's hope so because the smartphone and tablet market doesn't need another OS. WebOS would have to undergo major transformation to get any attention; WebOS 2.0 as demonstrated certainly won't do the trick. (Here's an idea: HP can buy Windows Phone 7 from Microsoft for its nice UI and graft that onto WebOS's core -- after modernizing the core, of course.)"

Doesn't need another OS? That market was crowded when Android arrived. I also have to question why porting the WP7 UI to a Linux kernel makes it inherently better.

Re:Gems from the article

[Junta]

Post-PC? Please.

From a business perspective, that may not be too crazy. Not because PCs/Laptops are dropping in popularity, but because new purchases are starting to decline (i.e. more and more people replace when broken instead of replace just to be faster). I do not believe people are throwing out their laptops and desktops and switching all over to TVs, Phones, Tablets, and so forth, but the business world becomes quickly disinterested in a market of markedly lower new sales.

Re:Gems from the article

[lushdog]

Sorry, but no. PlayBook is compatible with BBOS 6 software.

Source please?

Re:Gems from the article

[ADRA]

I don't use RIM products typically, and I still don't see the use of ever owning a tablet OS, but from what I've heard out of CES, the Playbook is sounding really nice, so all the best of luck to them.

Re:Gems from the article

[narcc]

I still don't see the use of ever owning a tablet OS, but from what I've heard out of CES, the Playbook is sounding really nice

I have no need for a tablet myself but, judging from the CES videos, the playbook is astonishing. It truly makes the iPad look like a $99 Android 1.6 tablet.

Granted, it does look like it stole quite a bit of its UI from WebOS -- Though I don't think you find too many users complaining :)

If HP comes out with something half as good next month, we'll be reading articles like "Crunch Time For iOS, Android" before June.

Re:Gems from the article

[the linux geek]

http://us.blackberry.com/playbook-tablet/

Re:Gems from the article

[Anonymous Coward]

http://us.blackberry.com/developers/tablet/

No mention of porting BBOS6 apps to Playbook.

Re:Gems from the article

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but no. PlayBook is compatible with BBOS 6 software.

Sorry, but no, it's not. Where the hell did you get that information?

The PB runs a whole new OS, and as of this writing, only the WebWorks and AIR SDKs are available. There is no Java stack. There is no native stack. They have *never* claimed BBOS compatibility, and it's never been demonstrated.

In short, you're making this shit up.

huh?

[Charliemopps]

I agree that Microsoft is dead in the mobile arena... but Palm is doing better? Palms basically been dead since 2000, before they even entered the mobile phone market. The fact that anyone paid money for their garbage OS is amazing. Then, to say that they are somehow ahead of Windows phones? At least Microsoft can trick people into thinking their phone will work better with their home PC or something. Palm just has absolutely nothing going for them.

Re:huh?

[bhartman34]

That's not true. Palm had a good UI going for them, and a lot of the early press for the hardware design of the Pre was positive. Where they screwed the pooch was their ad campaign, some quality control issues early on in the release, and in being slow to release the SDK.

Re:huh?

[Junta]

The fact that anyone paid money for their garbage OS is amazing

If you are referring to WebOS, the technical merits are tremendous. The only phone on the market with a sane interaction for managing running applications. Blackberry seems to be looking to change that, but most others either still avoid real multitasking or make no intuitively obvious representation that makes clear the difference between running, suspended, or closed applications.

I'm still a webOS fan, and will give it a chance to keep me in their February announcement, though I am afraid that HP completely missed the point and caused a whole lot of brain drain that could very well sink whatever slim chance webOS has.

Re:huh?

[LurkerXXX]

Blackberry seems to be looking to copy that,

There, fixed that for ya.

His analysis is off

[Wamoc]

His analysis of what is going on is a bit off. Microsoft and Nokia are still mattering. WebOS was a pretty good phone OS, but with one small brand using it, things never took off. Blackberry OS was always a piece of garbage, but it still is widely used because of the quantity of devices that run it. There is also the fact that many users are just used to it and swear by Blackberries. I wouldn't say it is crunch time for RIM, but they do need to do something to be seen by the masses as a viable phone OS again.

Re:His analysis is off

[nxtw]

Blackberry OS was always a piece of garbage, but it still is widely used because of the quantity of devices that run it. There is also the fact that many users are just used to it and swear by Blackberries.

Don't you think BlackBerry got so popular for a reason?

The amount of enterprise features available is simply not surpassed by any other device. Windows Mobile was getting closer and closer to BlackBerry with WM 6.1 and 6.5, but even Microsoft's own Windows Phone 7 is missing a lot of the enterprise features from WM 6.5.

Re:His analysis is off

[Anonymous Coward]

Name them.

The real fact of thew matter is that the "Enterprise features" are not driven by the handset itself, but the backend management. And in this, Blackberry are going to have a world of pain as the backend is where ActiveSync phones are making IT staff lives much MUCH easier. You look at the average BES and then at now what Exchange 2010 can do and the featureset is very similar - Exchange wins because it's much easier to work with.

IT staff hate Blackberrys with a passion for how fucked up they are to work with, ActiveSync devices on the other hand..... RIM have got to look at the ease of ActiveSync and realise their shit BES is going to be the death of them

Re:His analysis is off

[nxtw]

The real fact of thew matter is that the "Enterprise features" are not driven by the handset itself, but the backend management. And in this, Blackberry are going to have a world of pain as the backend is where ActiveSync phones are making IT staff lives much MUCH easier. You look at the average BES and then at now what Exchange 2010 can do and the featureset is very similar - Exchange wins because it's much easier to work with.

Lots of those nice ActiveSync features go away when using Windows Phone 7. You have to use an old device (Windows Mobile 6.5) to get all of them. At this point, I think even the iPhone supports more features than WP7...

Re:His analysis is off

[h4rr4r]

No one said WP7 was the way to go. iPhone and Android support most of these features and are adding more with each Rev of their OSes.

Re:His analysis is off

[Anonymous Coward]

That, and, not everyone uses Exchange, honest!

I am a consultant, and so travel around to a lot of large companies. The number that use Lotus Notes is staggering. Notes has applications besides mail/calendar, (and you can develop more) and handles synchronization, redundancy, and *especially* encryption and malware resistance much better.

The fact that you can develop databases/applications using notes means that a lot of things that don't fit well to a web interface can be done easily, offline. Also, since the mail database is just a template, it can be customized more than MS Exchange can. Also, it's cross platform, running on Windows, AIX, Lunix, etc., and of course different types of hardware. (The client is also available for Windows, Mac, and other).

If I have noticed a trend, it's that the larger a company is, the more likely it is to be using Lotus Notes instead of MS Exchange. This is why it cracked me up when Apple added half-assed MS Exchange support to the iPhone and called it "Enterprise ready". (Note that some companies still use Novell Groupwise).

Since BES has their own server, they don't need to care too much whether you are running Exchange, Notes, or something else.

Maemo and MeeGo

[TAiNiUM]

As if Maemo and MeeGo have already died? Maemo has a very active open source community and, even though MeeGo will supplant it, will live on for a long time.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[TAiNiUM]

Quick summary on that since few people are mentioning these.

Maemo has been around for a few years and is sometimes called Debian on a phone. Most people run it on a Nokia n900.

MeeGo is the newer version of the OS that Nokia is partnering with Intel to create. The Nokia n9 should be out in a few months with other handsets to follow.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

When the Motorola RAZR dropped in '03, the OS mimicked Symbian. In fact, until the iPhone, most everyone was playing a game of copy that UI and everyone targeted Symbian. Except RIM(who got mimicked by Google with Android(look up the original reference designs), and Microsoft.

The fact that the N8 and the N97 and other Nokia phones(and Android phones) have aped the iPhone form factor means that yes, Nokia doesn't matter.

Will they be the biggest? Maybe. But will they be the most profitable(no, and they aren't by a long shot)? What innovations will they bring to the mobile world that Android or Apple won't?

The Ovi Store says it all. Gruber's take says it all. Nokia might not be done selling smart phones, but they're not the market leader anymore and probably will never be again.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple didn't invent the iPhone form factor.

You don't seem to know the Symbian platform pretty well. From an application point of view, yes, it might be behind (less useless apps, true), but from HW and features/protocols/etc., Symbian has always lead innovation. Ok, the UI revolution has been brought by Apple in the smartphone market. What's new since then ? Nice phone design. Ok. Some features. Ok. No more revolutions.

Years ago, many people thought that Apple could hardly be a leader again...

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[the linux geek]

I use Maemo (Internet Tablet OS 2008, technically) on an N810, and it is good. It uses a touch-optimized GNOME variant (Hildon) as its UI, and it works really well. The really cool part of it is that, unlike Android, it can run any ARM Linux application, including the entire Debian repository. Also, performance is very good - in a couple unscientific tests at work, Flash and general web performance were pretty similar between the N810 (128MB RAM, 400MHz ARM11) and a Samsung Galaxy S running Android 2.2 (1GHz Cortex A8, 512MB RAM).

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[exomondo]

The fact that the N8 and the N97 and other Nokia phones(and Android phones) have aped the iPhone form factor

The iPhone form factor?

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[node 3]

As if Maemo and MeeGo have already died? Maemo has a very active open source community and, even though MeeGo will supplant it, will live on for a long time.

It doesn't matter if it has an active open source community. What matters is whether it has an active user community, in the context of how it's doing compared with Android and iOS.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Symbian MAY have lead innovation, but not anymore.

What has Symbian done that's been beneficial to the mobile ecosystem SINCE iOS dropped?

Maybe there's nothing new for mobile for now.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Seriously.

"If there is something good in the world then we copy with pride."

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[exomondo]

Seriously.

"If there is something good in the world then we copy with pride."

No, i mean what is the 'iPhone form factor'? As far as i can see the iPhone didn't bring anything new in terms of form factor.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Candy bar, all screen, no physical keyboard, as few buttons as possible, *touch* not stylus

Yes, there were phones that did some of this, but, before the iPhone, the Android reference design looked like a Black Berry. Nokia wasn't doing a similar looking phone.

Coke wasn't the first cola drink. Not by a long shot. But since Coke? They owned the Cola drink.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[exomondo]

Candy bar, all screen, no physical keyboard, as few buttons as possible, *touch* not stylus

The N97 - that you said 'aped the iphone form factor' doesn't fit that description. In fact the flagship nokia phones don't seem to have copied the iphone anymore than the iphone copied designs from companies like LG that preceded it.

The fact that they've copied an existing form-factor makes absolutely no difference to their relevance in the market as evidenced by the enormous success of the iphone that did the same thing.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[Anonymous Coward]

Will they be the biggest? Maybe. But will they be the most profitable(no, and they aren't by a long shot)? What innovations will they bring to the mobile world that Android or Apple won't?

Higher profitability is mostly a bad sign for a consumer/customer (products are overvalued), while smaller profits should usually point towards better bang for the buck.

Nokia subsidiary Nokia Siemens Networks owns over half of the essential patent families for LTE technology. Yes, it's not UIs, but Google or Apple wouldn't have gotten that done alongside with global deployment. Still they're eager to use it on their devices.

Personally I have strong belief that Qt strategy of Nokia will bear fruit, and strengthen them on global smartphone markets. It will both improve quality and speed of their internal development and products they can offer as well as what third parties can and are interested to offer.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[js_sebastian]

The fact that the N8 and the N97 and other Nokia phones(and Android phones) have aped the iPhone form factor means that...

Sorry but, what are you talking about? The N97 has a slide-out, tilting screen that reveals a 4-row keyboard. And you're saying they copied that from the iphone??? And the N8, other than being a non-slideout, capacitive touchscreen model has nothing in common with the iphone... actually the N8 is one of the few recent high end smartphones that does not have the same iphony hardware design. The N8 hardware is IMO several steps ahead of the iphone (good camera, HDMI output, all possible sensor-goodies included and overall feels more solid), while apple admittedly has the sleeker UI.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

So sue me. The n97 has a keyboard. big whoop.

Android and Apple devices are eating their lunch at home. There's no money to be made selling low margin devices. If this keeps up, they may not be in the phone business too long.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[exomondo]

So sue me. The n97 has a keyboard. big whoop.

What would I sue you for? Im just trying to understand your point, but it didn't make sense because your example didn't match your definition.

Android and Apple devices are eating their lunch at home. There's no money to be made selling low margin devices. If this keeps up, they may not be in the phone business too long.

And? I'm not disputing that.

Re:Maemo and MeeGo

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

I'm trying to say that in the context of this discussion, Nokia already IS irrelevant since no one's following their lead.

Not HTC. Not LG. Not Samsung.

No one.

They're playing follow the leader now. and have been since iOS1.

Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS

[bhartman34]

Frankly, I think RIM has ceded the market to Android and iOS. The Torch should've been a remarkable device to keep up with the pack, but it wasn't even as technically impressive as the Palm Pre and WebOS (which is getting a bit stale since we've been waiting for the 2.0 update).

\

WebOS has a chance, but it's a small one. I've been a big Palm fan since the Palm Pilot II, and was ecstatic when they released the Pre, as it was technically and hardware-wise right up there with the best of 'em (albeit a bit skimpy on the display size). But my high hopes were predicated on the idea that they'd get lots of developers to pump out apps, and they'd follow up the Pre with an even better device. Well, the first half of the Pre ad campaign was a joke -- and not a very good one. Subsequently, Palm saw a lot of initial sales, followed with...silence. The campaign failed to bring the masses, and because the masses stayed away, the developers stayed away. (It also didn't help that they took so long to release the SDK, and still don't have all the relevant APIs out, as far as I'm aware).

HP needs to hit this one out of the park for WebOS to stay alive. I think that's going to mean:

• A hardware refresh, including a Droid-sized device or devices
• That tablet they're working on had better have top-notch specs, or they shouldn't even bother with it.
• Immediate release of all relevant APIs, so that developers have no problem working with the hardware

Killing off Classic, IMO, isn't a great sign. They seem to be betting the farm that they'll pull new developers in, but Classic was a way to lure the Palm faithful over (or at least keep the ones you had.) I'm going to be watching the announcement carefully, but I have a sneaking suspicion that when my contract on this phone is up, I'm going to be getting an Android phone.

Re:Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS

[mlingojones]

Mod the parent up, it's a great assessment of everything that Palm and HP did wrong with webOS.

As an early Pre adopter, I was ecstatic when HP bought Palm, because they have deep enough pockets to splurge on the desperately-needed R&D that Palm couldn't afford. Instead one of their executives said that their goal "wasn't to enter the smartphone game" and that they bought Palm for the IP and to put webOS on printers. True enough, since then there have been zero compelling developments in the webOS world.

HP and Palm need to come up with something crazy if they want to keep me (and the parent, and probably many others) from switching to other platforms.

Re:Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS

[GilliamOS]

When I got my Pre in July 2009, I thought it was light years ahead of Apple and Android on the intuitiveness and on many levels, it still is. The card system is bliss, the notification system is easy to use, understand, and operate, and the OS never crashed. The Touchstone will always be my favorite perph as I could assign any number of macros to my phone when I placed it on to disable data and notifications for nighttime when I didn't need to be bothered with emails. Where they failed is in hardware. The original Pre should've been the Pre Plus, with the next step being something even bigger and better than what the Pre 2 is. It's too little, too late, and they will be irrelevant by 2012. We were promised Flash support by February *last* year, the app catalog is a failure in many fronts, and the overall build quality of the device left a lot to be desired. Oh, and if you plan on using your device after you transfer the service to a new phone, you have to cripple the device beyond use to use it. No more OTA updates, even over WiFi, no app catalog at all, and no calls ever again. Stupid.

Re:Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS

[__aazsst3756]

Frankly, I think RIM has ceded the market to Android and iOS.

I think they were just so far ahead in market share, their management was overconfident. They did purchase QNX, so perhaps the giant has finally awoke?

Re:Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS

[bhartman34]

Maybe. I just don't see it as a good sign that they'd release something like the Torch. It sounds like the PlayBook is a good conender, if it ever gets out the door, but they need to step up their smartphone game.

Re:Small Window of Opportunity For WebOS

[bhartman34]

Other than the build quality (and that was only in the original batches), I don't think the hardware on the original Pre was inadequate. About the only real deficit the original Pre had was a lack of an expansion slot. That I know of, no one was pooh-poohing the actual hardware specs at the time. The problem was the follow-up. If they'd released the Pre Plus around the time they released the Pixi, that would've been something to see. Instead, they released the Pixi, which many people just saw as the "Pre Minus". The other way to handle it would've been to release the Pixi first, and then the Pre. But what ended up happening was you had the Pre, then a step down with the Pixi, and then a long wait for the Pre Plus. And it was the Pre Plus that really fell flat, because it didn't sufficiently improve the Pre. And then, as if to add insult to injury, the Pre 2 doesn't have the kick-ass hardware that even should've been on the Pre Plus.

Upgrading to WebOS 2.0 is nice and all, but adding Flash and some UI enhancements is no substitute for a real hardware refresh (rather than just throwing more memory at the problem) and well-documented APIs.

The reporter 'GMGruman' is myopic! It's sad indeed

[bogaboga]

The submitter is myopic in my opinion and here's why:

When he writes statements like...

Meanwhile, it's been an Apple iOS and Google Android show at CES 2011, in the popular press, and in customers' hands. (Microsoft and Nokia essentially ceased to matter by Christmas 2010.)

...one wonders whether he's just ignorant or just tired. Let me educate him. The USA is not the world and neither does it represent it. Nokia is still the largest smartphone manufacturer in the world, and it's this manufacturer that he labels `cease to matter!`

Any tech person knows that it's not wise to underestimate Microsoft. They are still at the party though no one notices. Sincerely, I feel his conclusions are premature.

A juicy rumor..

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear that RIM is preparing "Blackberry for iPhone".

webOS has a chance

[El Royo]

I'll be attending HP's Feb. 9th announcement as well as their developer shindig that follows that night. I expect that HP will have something surprising to show us. We're all expecting the tablet we've been promised. And, we're expecting the next generation of smartphones. Also, a formal launch of their Enyo cross-platform development platform. All those things will, of course, be well received by the Palm faithful. It's the surprise that's in store which I think will make or break webOS.

I could be off-base here but I think those rooting for webOS will be pleased on the 9th. I don't think it's too late to relaunch this ship. If you'd like to see some live coverage of the events, tune in to webOSroundup.

What is he smoking?

[walshy007]

Nokia ceases to matter? Bullshit, they sell more phones than everyone else there combined. To write them off as a phone manufacturer is a big call.

Nokia may not be doing well in smart phones, but comparatively feature phones make smart phones look like a drop in the bucket.

Re:What is he smoking?

[dangitman]

Nokia may not be doing well in smart phones, but comparatively feature phones make smart phones look like a drop in the bucket.

In raw sales numbers, perhaps. But they don't make very much profit at all. Smartphones are where the money is to be made, both by manufacturers and service providers.

Re:What is he smoking?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nokia may not be doing well in smart phones, but comparatively feature phones make smart phones look like a drop in the bucket.

In raw sales numbers, perhaps. But they don't make very much profit at all. Smartphones are where the money is to be made, both by manufacturers and service providers.

Does your phone work on manufacturer profits? Does it work better if the manufacturer makes, say, five billion profit instead of one? Your viewpoint may be relevant to stockholders, but most of cell phone users, even smartphone users, are not mobile phone manufacturer stockholders.

Re:What is he smoking?

[gl4ss]

"Does your phone work on manufacturer profits? Does it work better if the manufacturer makes, say, five billion profit instead of one? Your viewpoint may be relevant to stockholders, but most of cell phone users, even smartphone users, are not mobile phone manufacturer stockholders."

that's the thing with these analysts, the only angle is how will the stock move in 6 months. "very much profit at all", what does that even mean? sometimes you see headlines on tech/economy publications that say things like "nokias marketshare crashed in india" whilst they're holding only 40% of market. only 40%, what a disaster. and that these analysts don't have memory glands that would remember even the last decade and the failboats that were sony-e, siemens, motorola etc in bread&butter sales.

and nokias smartphone marketshare % is totally depended on just what the chosen analyst chooses as smartphones. is x3 a smartphone? no, but spec sheet tick marks would say otherwise. but what matters is that you don't need a payment plan to sign up for one. when I was buying my first symbian smartphone, I chose it because I could afford it and it was 'smart', as in I could write programs for it, I could have chosen to import a treo but that would have been 3 times more expensive. and that's really why treo's failed outside usa(and being late with gprs, cameras). nokia already has phased some 5th edition touchscreen models(that are still manufactured) to pricing where retailers can sell them at around hundred euros, unlocked and no contracts attached. that is nearing the 'africa phone' pricing. those devices are the real olpc, bringing communications, calculator, news, the internet and change.

Take a break!

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been analyzed more thoroughly than you have, just stop. You are wasting everyones time, it will all be resolved within a year or two.

Nokia totally ceased to matter...

[drolli]

I saw that when i was in China and Indonesia.

What kind of stupid article is that?

Nokia's market share for smartphones may be dropping but that is happening since they started to sell the Nokia 9000 communicator (Yes that thing could send email at a time when most people may just have heard of the net). Nokia is always having a few trial phones (e.g. the Nokia 9000 was one) to figure out if it works well, and then may decide for a radical switch in the second model (e,g, the 9210 switch to symbian), or trash the series. They have done that now with the N800/N900, so i think they will now pack the experiences frome these devices into a new one. The fact that some often sold symbian phones do not qualify as smart phones is no reason to write the platform off prematurely. I also have an Android device and i like it; however some things, e.g. the "everthing need to be linked to your gmail accocunt" idea to work correctly (e.g. sync/backup) is a little exaggerated. I already discovered some annoying things which my Nokia E61 from End of 2006 does, but my Android 2.2 device doesnt (connecting to an ad-hoc wireless network, using the PC via USB to conenct to the net - and yes there are situations when i dont need additional complications, namely when travelling. The E61 i still use connetc to everything to which it can connect).

I believe that meego paired with the philosophy of Nokia not to try to fuck the customer by forcing him into specific solutions but to just give the device all capabilities for connections which can be imagined will serve well. After seeing the many ways in which apple fucks the customers and google believe that they are not evil, i prefer companies selling me hardware (opposed to thinking of the Software they can put on the Hardware to "advertise" their services to me (or, in the case of Apple: force-feed me).

Re:Nokia totally ceased to matter...

[davros-too]

I'd love to see Nokia push Meego forward and offer great smartphones. But sadly I think they will give it minimal resources and continue to push symbian instead. Their market share will continue to reduce as good phones like N8 are dragged down by the poor UI and limited apps base for symbian.

QNX

[frank249]

Blackberry OS6 is only a placeholder until they port QNX to their smartphones. Blackberry bought QNX last April and there are rumours that the new storm 3 will run on QNX. Blackberry already has QNX running on the Playbook. Full multitasking with flash support on a dual core processor. It will be an interesting year but RIM is not preparing to fade away.

Re:The reporter 'GMGruman' is myopic! It's sad ind

[Anonymous Coward]

Even better ... what did iOS do at the show ?

Yep- too late

[markdavis]

>Is it too late for WebOS and BlackBerry?

Yep. It is too late. BlackBerry will do OK for a while. Once perfected, WebOS Linux was fantastic. Great design, a pleasure to use, root for everyone, good UI, *great* "card" multitasking interface, lots of hackability. But it took too long to get to market, too long to debug, too long to spread to other carriers, was coupled with weak hardware, and not enough consumer choices. Had a few of those been addressed, it could have been a major player. But now it is too late. There are things I greatly miss from it when I moved to Android Linux.

BlackBerry is doing the right things

[Deviant]

I think that it is premature to rule out BlackBerry. I work in IT consulting and I saw many executives try an iPhone and end up going back to BlackBerry because they were just so fast/fluent with the devices. They had a button on the one side set to the calendar and another set to the email and knew all the keyboard shortcuts and it was truly amazing to see how quickly they could get things done. Not to mention that with BES (which they are now giving away for free to organisations under 2000 devices - which I imagine is the vast majority) you can do things like invite attendees to appointments in particular meeting rooms, see their availability and the rooms when scheduling the appointment, etc which are not possible with ActiveSync and particularly not with the iPhone. The enterprise features like being able to force policies which can configure pretty much every setting on the device, wirelessly deploy apps and updates, etc are pretty unrivalled as well.

I personally had a Moto Q9H WM6.1 device until I got my iPhone 3G and I was happy with the iPhone until I was given a company issued Torch at my new job. I am impressed - it is a great really solid and well constructed device compared with my iPhone 3G with nearly as good webkit browser, a better screen, better battery life, more RAM, great multitasking, a great 5 megapixel camera with flash, just as good Facebook and LinkedIn apps and with the above described better Exchange interaction via the company BES server it is a great product for me. I like the fact that it has both the touchscreen and a trackpad as moving the cursor around an email or a mouse cursor around a web page are sometimes better than tapping/holding on the touch-screen (though it can do that too). I like the fact it shows up like a USB disk when attached to a PC and I can just drop music and video files onto that drive and it just works for indexing/playing - even things like OGG/Divx which never worked with the iPhone unless you re-encoded them. I am sure future versions when they get their QNX OS and a higher-res screen and faster processor etc will be even better.

I am waited with great anticipation for the next generation of BlackBerry. The current generation will work just fine for me until then and I don't really miss the iPhone. The Torch is doing what it needed to do - keep their existing customers happy with a solid device better than a iPhone 3G/3GS this generation while they pull a rabbit out of the hat next one which should really be a contender...

Re:BlackBerry is doing the right things

[fruey]

Can't help but think that the main thing holding back BlackBerry in non-users is that it isn't as glitzy and has very little "wow" factor compared to Windows phone 7, iPhone and Android. For personal use - photos, video, checking personal email quickly (but not replying, which is a pain even with predictive text) and surfing casually. Add contacts to Outlook and they're straight on your phone. Email includes a your local addresses and can query the enterprise contact DB. SSH is possible via BlackBerry and can be inside the local network for access to server admin.

BlackBerry is great for email & scheduling, allows you to reply to email comfortably, and the touch version adds some of the other advantages that currently belong to Apple, Microsoft and Google.

Re:BlackBerry is doing the right things

[LeadSongDog]

The era of RIM/QNX lock-in with the auto industry is with us for a while to come. Long before it ends, a new generation of kids in SUV back seats will be used to playing on them. And really, who would really want to trust iTunes with their engine controls?

Everything

[SuperKendall]

Even better ... what did iOS do at the show ?

Launched on Verizon and became universal.

Strategy vs. Product

[Anonymous Coward]

Releasing a strategy vs. releasing a product (Apple, Google, etc)... hmmm should hire Yoda "do or do not"

Unix on the phone

[inglorion_on_the_net]

I know I don't speak for everyone, but, personally, I don't care for any of the the OSes that don't allow native applications or that require me to learn new APIs for things I already know APIs for on other systems. There is no good reason we should have to learn a whole new set of APIs and/or have our applications run at less than the performance the device actually supports. Modern phones are easily able to run a complete Unix system, and I have long been saying that's what I want: I already know how to program for it, tons of programs have already been written for it, and the APIs are not going to go away for some time.

As it happens, Nokia makes a phone that gives me what I want: the N900. When I learned about it, I got one right away, and I have not regretted it. My only gripe with it is that they didn't put a shortcut to the phone functionality right on the main screen, but that was easily fixed by placing the appropriate icon there. Since then, it has been fantastic for phone calls, SMS, and as a pocket-sized computer.

Unfortunately for me, there seem to be few, if any, plans to continue to release phones with proper Linux environments, such as the N900. I have what I want, for now, but where will I go for my next phone?

Re:Unix on the phone

[21mhz]

MeeGo?

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

I just can't agree with the author's assessment. I own a Pre, but use a company issued iPhone at work. I was excited to use the iPhone but find it is very limiting in practice. Mail and iCal are seriously lacking business features that my old Palm and BlackBerry handled flawlessly years ago. IOS may have a lot of apps, but the device seems to be better suited to entertainment usage rather than serious business usage.

WebOS and Blackberry need to get the advertising right. If they do, they will be able to compete with the iPhone.

Android is the $0-cost phone

[spage]

That suggests the more savvy consumers with more money to spend are wandering off to iPhone and Android

Uhh, thanks to relentless competition, Android phones with solid specs (WiFi, 800MHz processors, 512MB memory, 2GB microSD card) cost nothing with a 2-year plan from US carriers.

The only reason to buy anything less is the substantial cost of the data plan that I think all the carriers make you get with a smartphone. But most people realize you get so much extra utility over a messaging phone.

Re:Android is the $0-cost phone

[peragrin]

And the first thing you have to do to those cheap andriod phones is root it and install update to date software as those cheap phones if your lucky comes with a 2 year old OS.

Google does things slowly one decent update a year. CArriers are running 1-2 years behind google, making android a very slow OS.

It really is a shame that the first thing you have to do is void your warranty to run a decent android OS. And don't mention Nexus. The Nexus S is produced by samsung and as such with everyone you buy you support thier lousy updates for the rest of their product lines.

Re:Android is the $0-cost phone

[tom17]

What am I missing out on by not rooting my HTC Desire with 2.2 and HTC Sense? I haven't seen any hugely compelling features of 2.3 that make rooting seem worthwhile.. yet.

Re:Android is the $0-cost phone

[spage]

You're wrong on all your points! My $0 LG Optimus S and $200 HTC Evo came running the most recent Android release at the time (2.2, which had been out for 5 months), because I was savvy enough to demand it. With so much competition, new phones running old Android suffer in the marketplace. And Google does NOT do things slowly, Android got four significant updates in 2009, two in 2010, and Gingerbread and Ice Cream are both coming in 2011.

I agree with your tangential comment that vendors like Samsung have terrible track records for Android updates. I hope comparative analysis like http://blogs.computerworld.com/17649/android_upgrades will affect their revenues and thus encourage them to do a better job.

Android app switching

[spage]

Maybe WebOS is better but I love how Android means I don't have to think about memory management, save before quitting, confirm quit, etc. As mobets says, press the Home key and choose any of your last 8 apps and you return to its state. Whatever I was recently doing is just there.

Press and hold Home is non-obvious, and Android's user experience directory Matias Duarte (formerly of webOS!) talks in his great interview with Engadget around 14:00 about improving task switching and multitasking. "We've got an on-screen affordance, one of our virtual buttons, you tap it you get a list of your recent applications ... with a visible tangible representation of what... it's doing"

Re:The reporter 'GMGruman' is myopic! It's sad ind

[intheshelter]

Try not to have your disdain for the USA cloud your thinking. I agree with the poster, that Microsoft and Nokia have ceased to matter. Despite their current sales, they are on the downward spiral. Neither is a leader in the mobile tech world any more. No one looks to Nokia or MS to see what where their market vision will lead the world. That is Apple iOS and Google Android.

Yes, Nokia still has large sales numbers and market share, just like MS, but they are an also ran at this point. The sad thing is they (and you) don't seem to know it yet.

That would be Meego, but....

[judeancodersfront]

they are too late. Meego needed to come out before WP7.

HP: In for the long haul?

[garyebickford]

What if HP cuts a deal with Costco for a WebOS phone+pad combo? Or Wal-Mart? This could be the 'iPhone for the rest of us'. I don't think there's an Android vendor in the same position to do that. Of course, HP must also cut deals with the carriers that will generate enough demand to keep the carriers and the development community interested.

I think we have got past the point where smartphones have become, if not commodities, at least a relatively mature market where hotness is not all there is. Not everyone needs a dual-monitor OpenGL screamer on their desktop - they just need a useful PC. Smartphones don't need 100,000 apps to keep most people satisfied. WebOS could be the one that meets the need for a smartphone with great usability, high quality (HW and SW), great phone reception, and reasonable pricing. (We'll see how they meet that challenge next month.)

HP has the financial resources to put the Palm into a long, steady market share - if they can combine all the improvements mentioned above with a smart marketing plan. In the long run, most folks don't buy the new hotness. They buy something that works, that's within their budget. There are a large number of people who are never going to buy an iPhone. So I think 'slow and steady' might just work.

As a case in point, HP was not first to the low-end ink jet printer world, but they extended their reputation for quality and reliability in higher end printers to the new market, competed on price (by charging $4500 per gallon for ink, just like everybody else, so they can 'give' the printers away) and got well established in the office supply stores and big box stores. They're doing all right with that, and I think they can do the same thing with phones.

Tasks are the key

[SuperKendall]

It's hardly encouraging when the top thing one can come up with in praise of WebOS is that it has a great task switcher.

If you understand WebOS it's not.

Because the thing that derives from the nice task switcher, is that it's really a platform dedicated to light tasks in ways others are not.

That's what I like, it's just differently focused than the other more all-encompassing platforms.

Re:Tasks are the key

[node 3]

It's hardly encouraging when the top thing one can come up with in praise of WebOS is that it has a great task switcher.

If you understand WebOS it's not.

Yet whenever you read about WebOS on the Internet, the one thing that everyone talks about is the task management system. Secondarily they talk about the beauty of the UI. After that, there is really nothing.

Because the thing that derives from the nice task switcher, is that it's really a platform dedicated to light tasks in ways others are not.

That's what I like, it's just differently focused than the other more all-encompassing platforms.

And that's perfectly fine. I realize that there are plenty of people (although relatively few overall, a sizable niche on its own) who will strongly prefer WebOS on this very foundation.

But when it comes to the average consumer having WebOS advocated to them, hearing "it has a great task switcher" and waxing poetic over it, is not very compelling.

Re:Tasks are the key

[SuperKendall]

Yet whenever you read about WebOS on the Internet, the one thing that everyone talks about is the task management system.

That is because they find it easier to move between tasks than on other platforms.

But THAT in turn is because of the clear focus on simple tasks that live in a world where you shift between them constantly.

So what the users see and say they like, is only a symptom of a deeper reason. It's why when someone says they like something about a system you have to go deeper to understand why they like it so much when it may seem superficial at first glance.

But when it comes to the average consumer having WebOS advocated to them, hearing "it has a great task switcher" and waxing poetic over it, is not very compelling.

I agree with that which is why it didn't sell well. WebOS has a major marketing problem, which with any luck HP will put forth some effort to resolve.

Interestingly what I'm not sure of is how much sense WebOS makes on a tablet vs. something like a phone. Use of a tablet is much longer lived and I'm not sure the whole "simple task use" suffices on what is inherently a more powerful platform. But Palm had some pretty clever designers so perhaps they have re-thought the core idea for tablets.

Re:Tasks are the key

[node 3]

Yet whenever you read about WebOS on the Internet, the one thing that everyone talks about is the task management system.

That is because they find it easier to move between tasks than on other platforms.

I'm not quite sure how this is possible. On iOS, switching between tasks is identical to launching apps. The fact that it's a distinct thing on WebOS is what I'm getting at.

But THAT in turn is because of the clear focus on simple tasks that live in a world where you shift between them constantly.

To the occlusion of non-simple tasks?

So what the users see and say they like, is only a symptom of a deeper reason. It's why when someone says they like something about a system you have to go deeper to understand why they like it so much when it may seem superficial at first glance.

That's what I did. Why is a task management interface always the number one thing mentioned? To be certain, it must be because it is quite fantastic, but it should be at best just an example, like, "the interface is fantastic, for example..." and it shouldn't be the universally given example. Otherwise, it just appears like some obscure sub-feature, a feature to manage actual features, is the only good thing about it.

Also, I disagree strongly with "you have to go deeper". If someone is talking up a platform, the listener shouldn't have to look deeply into what they are hearing. Sure, you may have to do that from time to time because some people are bad at conveying information, but this should not be so universal.

If this was just one person here and there, it would be a problem with the person, but it's basically everyone, which strongly implies the problem lies with the platform.

But when it comes to the average consumer having WebOS advocated to them, hearing "it has a great task switcher" and waxing poetic over it, is not very compelling.

I agree with that which is why it didn't sell well. WebOS has a major marketing problem, which with any luck HP will put forth some effort to resolve.

I don't think this was the result of marketing. It's the result of being extremely fantastic in a very non-important way to most people. Unless you just mean going forward, in which case I wholly agree. I don't see HP being able to get this right, though, but I do look forward to seeing how this turns out.

Interestingly what I'm not sure of is how much sense WebOS makes on a tablet vs. something like a phone. Use of a tablet is much longer lived and I'm not sure the whole "simple task use" suffices on what is inherently a more powerful platform. But Palm had some pretty clever designers so perhaps they have re-thought the core idea for tablets.

With this I think I understand what you are trying to say about "simple tasks". To somewhat oversimplify things to highlight the differences, you are placing WebOS, as a phone system, closer to an advanced, perhaps even ideal, "feature phone", than an app phone, right? *Kind* of like how the Kin was marketed (but minus the social networking focus, and the overall craptasticness of the Kin).

If that's the case, then I think WebOS really should get a second chance in the handset market. The feature phone is pretty much at a dead end and WebOS sounds like it can revitalize and revolutionize it similar to how iOS did to the smartphone market.

PalmP: dead. Blackberry: declining.

[swschrad]

the thing about Palm and its successors is, about the time they get a little press, they've dumped their products are are playing with something else. I made up my mind about that outfit about 10 years ago... and have seen no reason to change it since... obsolete before they finished development, can't set their course, can't hold their course... so fsck 'em, doomed. HP has a lot of ways to burn money wholesale, this was one more.

Price and Service are all that really matter

[tomhath]

Once you get beyond the Early Adopters who need to have the latest kewl toy, the rest of the mobile phone market doesn't really care what device they're using. A reliable phone, texting, email, GPS, and maybe a couple of basic apps like scheduler, alarm clock, and web browser are all most users need. So it's very difficult for one vendor to differentiate them self from the next.

"But such and such has thousands of apps in their app store". Who cares? Not me, I look at what's out there and almost all of them are arcade games. Truly useful apps are available on every platform.

2011 Android releases

[spage]

Oops, I meant to say "Honeycomb and Ice Cream are both coming in 2011." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)#History