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Pro Silverlight 4 In VB

jddp writes "MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, and Pro Silverlight 4 in VB is a model of what a programmer's guide should be. He explains a mass of technical information in considerable detail without losing the big-picture. His clear and concise exposition of concepts and functionality is never confusing or needlessly repetitive. The book's organization is logical, yet the chapters can be read in isolation, as the need or interest arises." Keep reading for the rest of jddp's review. Pro Silverlight 4 in VB author Matthew MacDonald pages 896 publisher Apress rating 9/10 reviewer jddp ISBN 1430235489 summary An invaluable reference for professional developers wanting to discover the new features of Silverlight One thing this book doesn't provide is an overview of the subject for a novice trying to get the big-picture. After the briefest of introductions (10 pages), the author leaps right into building applications. Nor does it provide every technical detail you will need to complete your application. (That's why we have the web). However, if you want a book that can take you from having a rough map of the territory to being a self-sufficient Silverlight developer, I highly recommend this one.

Starting from the fundamentals of Silverlight such as XAML, Layout and Elements, McDonald rarely puts a step wrong as he winds through the technical details, progressing to specific functional areas such as such as Animation, Data Binding and Web services. Each chapter provides a brief overview of the functionality addressed before stepping through the programming details. His code examples are concise, but also convey the significance and use of the features very clearly. The examples do not sprawl across pages and pages, as in weaker tutorials, but they do build upon one another when necessary. Working code implementing the examples from the text is available at MacDonald's personal site for anyone to download — but apparently only in C# (as far as I could see. The VB version may be coming later, just as the VB book lagged the C# version). Due to the intelligent choice, structuring and clear implementation of his examples, I have found them a useful jumping-off point for "real-life" applications on several occasions. The author has gone beyond the scope of the book in at least one case, implemented an "advanced" capability (support for large file up/downloads via a Web Service) that I was specifically interested in.

As mentioned, the book does not contain an extensive technology overview and this is reflected by the absence of many of the buzzwords associated with Silverlight from the index. You will find no mention of RIA services. MVVM is only touched upon in the context of the new SL 4 support for the Command pattern. (Even so, his brief explanation is a great example of MacDonald's lucid and economical expository style. You could trawl the web for a long time without finding such a straightforward explanation.) However, while MacDonald does not attempt to convey any over-arching architectural vision, he is perfectly capable of clarifying some abstract design concepts. In Chapter 4 of the book he is already tackling the intimidating-sounding topics of Dependency Properties, Attached Properties and Routed Events. By the time you've read a few pages you're wondering what all the fuss was about. After less than six pages, MacDonald is working through a meaningful application of attached properties (a custom layout panel). Most of the chapter is devoted a detailed explanation and illustration of Mouse and Keyboard event handling, and to the new Commanding support in SL 4.

A final caveat: This is not a book for someone wanting to catch up on what's new in Silverlight 4. The information is there, but it is dispersed among the relevant sections of the old book, and there is no helpful index. Contrary to the impression given by the back-cover, the very occasional "What's New" boxes don't help much in homing in on new features. In fact, the organization of the material and most of the content is unchanged from the SL 3 edition, so I wouldn't buy this if you already have that book.

While reading this book, I sometimes wished for a wider view: discussions of the merits of different architectures; comparisons to design patterns used in other technologies, and so forth. This book will not be much help in defining the architecture for your next mega-app. This is a book to seize on when you need to get a handle on programming specific Silverlight features fast. You won't learn about every possible shortcut or dead-end on the trail, but you will never have to wonder where the heck you are.

While this book it isn't all things to all developers, it is hard to overstate its consistent intelligence and clarity, or its sheer usefulness (to programmers). Programmers just aren't supposed to be so articulate – are they?

You can purchase Pro Silverlight 4 in VB from amazon.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

181 comments

  1. Re:fpfpfpfpfp by vlm · · Score: 4, Funny

    pfpfpfpfpfpsdpfspdfpasfoawiertkgwerchgcsdhs vdghs ch
    sdfghsdf

    No, thats Perl. This is a book about "silverlight"

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  2. whyishewritingaboutvb? by oodaloop · · Score: 1

    I dunno, I think Virginia Beach is a pretty nice place.

    --
    Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    1. Re:whyishewritingaboutvb? by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      I dunno, I think Virginia Beach is a pretty nice place.

      Have you actually been there? The place sucks donkey balls.

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    2. Re:whyishewritingaboutvb? by oodaloop · · Score: 1

      Stationed there for 3.5 years in the Marine Corps, so yeah, a few times. Been stationed in worse places, so I think it's pretty nice. YMMV.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    3. Re:whyishewritingaboutvb? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's a better place than Iraq and Afghanistan, but that's not saying much.

      VB is really a dump as far as US-based beach towns go. There's a billion draconian rules about what you can and can't do, there's cops everywhere (it's a virtual police state), and the beach is tiny and crowded. You're not allowed to throw frisbees on the beach for god's sake. The town is just a shitty tourist trap.

      Not only that, the surrounding cities in the Hampton-Roads area are shit too: Norfolk, Newport News, and worst of all, Hampton. That area is the armpit of the state of Virginia.

      If you want beaches, there's dozens of better places in the US to go, including pretty much the entire state of Florida (which isn't exactly a great state either, but it's better than VB).

    4. Re:whyishewritingaboutvb? by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      Stationed there for 3.5 years

      As per Grishnakh .. VB sucks as a town and/or beach in general. If you were there for 3.5 years and didn't get to the outer banks then shame on you.

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      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    5. Re:whyishewritingaboutvb? by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      If you want beaches, there's dozens of better places in the US to go, including pretty much the entire state of Florida (which isn't exactly a great state either, but it's better than VB).

      You missed the obvious .. the Outer Banks

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      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    6. Re:whyishewritingaboutvb? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Of North Carolina? Yes, those are pretty nice, and a short distance from VB. But you do need to be very careful of the undertow there.

    7. Re:whyishewritingaboutvb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stationed there for 3.5 years

      As per Grishnakh .. VB sucks as a town and/or beach in general. If you were there for 3.5 years and didn't get to the outer banks then shame on you.

      because you have so much free time and self-determination when you're in the military and that makes traveling from base to another town so easy to do. didn't think of that, did you? dumbass.

    8. Re:whyishewritingaboutvb? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      You do. As an army brat for the first 16 years of my life my military father always had time for stuff like that.

    9. Re:whyishewritingaboutvb? by SageMusings · · Score: 1

      I was born in Chesapeake. The GP is correct: It sucks huge, throbbing, unwashed members.

      --
      -- Posted from my parent's basement
    10. Re:whyishewritingaboutvb? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It beats Camp Lejeune and Barstow, but Okinawa? Not so much...

  3. Re:fpfpfpfpfp by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

    Looked like JUSTIF to me, but to be honest, both of those languages look like gibberish to me.

    --
    Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
  4. Pro VB?? by TeRanEX · · Score: 0, Insightful

    How on earth can you justify using 'Pro' and 'VB' in one sentence??

    1. Re:Pro VB?? by kthreadd · · Score: 2

      I don't see anything wrong with that. A lot of professional software engineers use it.

    2. Re:Pro VB?? by MightyMartian · · Score: 0

      Translation: A lot of talentless hacks are saddling their organizations with badly written code.

      Same as it ever was.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Pro VB?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easy.

      Every pro should avoid VB.

      See? It's easy to use "Pro" and "VB" in the same sentence.

    4. Re:Pro VB?? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      If you call Excel macros "professional software" then yes. How many of Microsoft's commercial applications are written in VB?

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    5. Re:Pro VB?? by I8TheWorm · · Score: 2

      I think you're confusing VB1-6 with VB.Net. In it's current iteration, it's a fairly nice OO language.

      I don't use it because I'm a fan of curly brackets, but your writing it off suggests not having used or seen VB.Net in action.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    6. Re:Pro VB?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know why anyone would use VB if they can use C#. With VB.NET, it's all the same libraries, but C# is much nicer to read and write. Also, I'd rather be sharp than dim...
      As for the old VB? No, thanks.

    7. Re:Pro VB?? by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      I've never called Excel macros professional software, although I don't see anything stopping anyone from making professional software using Excel macros, do you?

      And for the question, I don't know. How is that important?

    8. Re:Pro VB?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you call Excel macros "professional software" then yes. How many of Microsoft's commercial applications are written in VB?

      yep... you are confusing vbscript (not even vb 6) with vb net.

    9. Re:Pro VB?? by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      Now, now. They aren't all like that. Take me for instance. I program in VB.NET.

      Granted, the only reason I do is because when I took my current job everything was already done in VB.NET.

      One of my goals for this year is to rewrite the system in C# (learning about MVC for this too).

    10. Re:Pro VB?? by zombiechan · · Score: 1

      That's still a matter of opinion. While I agree with you about C# looks much better, but I know people who thinks VB.NET is easier to read and write. It's all up to the developer.

    11. Re:Pro VB?? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I hope you have a similar attitude towards Java, because VB, as of today, has more advanced language features compared to it. For example, it has first-class functions and closures.

    12. Re:Pro VB?? by hardburn · · Score: 1

      Your own dogfood. Eat it.

      --
      Not a typewriter
    13. Re:Pro VB?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      VB and C# are basically equivalent languages (which means that VB is not far off of Java, either). The people on slashdot complaining about VB are mostly just revealing that they're not very up on the status of current programming languages. VB just has a different syntax. Generates the same code, uses the same APIs.

    14. Re:Pro VB?? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Actually I'd say there was nothing wrong with VB6 either as long as you used it correctly the problem was since it was easy to pick up many would learn just enough to be dangerous. But frankly I have seen horribly bad code written in plenty of different languages so I don't consider that a strictly VB problem. But if you used as intended, for making a RAD GUI for a database, well then it worked quite beautifully and I doubt anyone could do that particular niche job any faster or better with any other language. It just so happened having a custom GUI for a DB was a job that most small businesses could use so you ended up with demand for VB skills far outpacing supply which led to those "know enough to be dangerous" types.

      But over the years I have cooked up some VB apps for clients and for that one little niche it is perfect. With VB it was trivial to have the client sit next to me and add/remove fields to their liking, whip off a prototype for them to see if they like it, for those simple little jobs it really is a great tool. It was when someone who only knew VB tried to shoehorn it into some giant rambling mess of a project that it never should have been used for that it became a POS, but I can't blame the language for a bad developer.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    15. Re:Pro VB?? by c0lo · · Score: 1
      The same way you can put "ActionScript" (for Flash and so) and "Professional" in the same sentence?

      Not that semantically makes any less oxymoronic, but anyway... the English language support bigger abuses that this one - after all, the political clique of many countries in this world do it every day (even letting aside the markedrones).

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    16. Re:Pro VB?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (learning about MVC for this too)

      You actually work as a programmer, and have yet to grasp the principles of MVC?

    17. Re:Pro VB?? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Translation: A lot of talentless hacks are saddling their organizations with badly written code.

      A talentless hack is a talentless hack, and badly written code is badly written code, in any language.

      And organisations employ programmers, programmers do not control organisations.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    18. Re:Pro VB?? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      On slashdot, referring to Java in support of an argument will get you nowhere, you might as well say "I hope you have a similar attitude towards COBOL/BASIC..."

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    19. Re:Pro VB?? by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      Well said. It's probably important to point out that best and worst feature of VB is its ease of use. That allows competent programmers to perform tasks very rapidly, but allows people who have no business being programmers to write crap code.

      BTW, you may already know but the new versions of Microsoft Expression not only allow customers to design forms but from their own desktop if needed. It's really intended for BAs, but allows the flexibility of course.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    20. Re:Pro VB?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (learning about MVC for this too)

      You actually work as a programmer, and have yet to grasp the principles of MVC?

      Hur! Learn to read dipshit. Learning an implementation of MVC is different from understanding the principles.

    21. Re:Pro VB?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you call Excel macros "professional software" then yes. How many of Microsoft's commercial applications are written in VB?

      yep... you are confusing vbscript (not even vb 6) with vb net.

      Actually, MS Office uses VBA (VB for Applications) as its internal scripting language.

    22. Re:Pro VB?? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You vastly overestimate Slashdot. It is not LtU. Heck, you have plenty PHP fans here, and that thing is about as bad as old VB was!

    23. Re:Pro VB?? by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I should have said ASP.NET MVC

  5. This entire story... by QuantumBeep · · Score: 1

    This entire story is a troll.

    1. Re:This entire story... by jdastrup · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's a response the story a few days ago on why is it OK to pay the younger devs more than the older ones. Hey Old People, buy this to enhance your VB skills and make more money.

    2. Re:This entire story... by cognoscentus · · Score: 0, Troll

      It does seem a trifle odd to post something about using a proprietary API (and rival to open standards such as HTML5), designed with a proprietary (and much ridiculed) language on such an open-source oriented site. I suppose in theory one should be able to run said VB-Silverlight with Moonlight, so perhaps it isn't quite as monumentally bizarre as it seems.

      Regardless, the combination of VB and Silverlight in the same breath gives me the heebie jeebies.

    3. Re:This entire story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silverlight is not a rival to HTML5. This has been stated several times already.

    4. Re:This entire story... by cognoscentus · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I meant former rival :)

    5. Re:This entire story... by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Funny

      Silverlight isn't a rival to anything. This is like publishing a book "Fortran-77 For The 21st Century."

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:This entire story... by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      I thought the only people who still used any variation of VB were the "oldtimers" who picked up coding in the 90s while dreaming of making lots of money. At least those are the only people I see still coding in VB.NET and the like these days, pretty much all the real geeks I know tend to have pet languages that they're not allowed to use at work (Python, Ruby, asm for some arcane old CPU or something completely different) and code C#.NET or Java for a living...

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    7. Re:This entire story... by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's a response the story a few days ago on why is it OK to pay the younger devs more than the older ones. Hey Old People, buy this to enhance your VB skills and make more money.

      Your entire post is a troll. Not only are you ageist but you seem to think that VB is somehow better than languages like Java, C/C++ or C#.

      If you already know C/C++, Java, Objective C or some other variety of C and you want to learn .NET then you are better off learning C#.

      VB.NET is a waste of time for anyone except for those who might be charged with porting over some legacy VB code. In a lot of cases, you are probably better off translating parts of that code to pseudo code and rewriting it from scratch in C#.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    8. Re:This entire story... by Tr3vin · · Score: 1

      Us young guys still have to use VB for some shops, but I don't know of anybody who likes it. Most of the guys I know are big into C# if they really like programming for Windows. Personally, I am a fan of D and Vala. Unfortunately, these languages aren't quite where they need to be, so most of my personal projects tend to focus around C++ or Java.

    9. Re:This entire story... by Locke2005 · · Score: 3, Funny

      The hip new generation of programmers are all using Visual COBAL!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    10. Re:This entire story... by murdocj · · Score: 4, Insightful

      C# and VB.Net are two different syntaxes for using the same common runtime library. Arguing about whether C# is better or worse than VB.Net is the height of language snobbery. What matters is the .Net library underneath. The only reason to prefer one over the other is because you happen to prefer one syntax over the other.

    11. Re:This entire story... by cognoscentus · · Score: 1

      Well, of course not. Plugin-based browser graphics are obsolete, and Flash can hold up the legacy end. But that's how Silverlight was pitched originally...

    12. Re:This entire story... by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

      C# and VB.Net are two different syntaxes for using the same common runtime library. Arguing about whether C# is better or worse than VB.Net is the height of language snobbery. What matters is the .Net library underneath. The only reason to prefer one over the other is because you happen to prefer one syntax over the other.

      Sorry but if are going to call yourself a "professional" developer then you should know the syntax of Java and/or C#. Once you know one of those languages then you should be able to move between the two fairly easily as the job/project requires. If you go from knowing VB and learn only VB.NET then you will be limiting yourself considerably.

      There are a number of languages which you can access Cocoa from on OS X but I would hardly consider all of them equal to each other.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    13. Re:This entire story... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      What GP said is essentially correct - VB and C# are so close in terms of language features that if you know one, learning the other pretty much boils down to learning the syntactic differences, and those are for the most part one-to-one mappings or close to it. All C# programmers I knew could read VB code without much effort.

    14. Re:This entire story... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Some places still teach VB as the main language in IS programming courses. Perhaps because its syntax is more self-explanatory - e.g. compare C# keyword "abstract" vs VB "MustInherit" (on classes) and "MustOverride" (on methods), or "sealed" vs "NotOverridable", or "static" vs "Shared".

    15. Re:This entire story... by tgatliff · · Score: 1

      I agree with you.. by the way.. But I admit I am partial to C#... Bad taste left by old legacy VB6 customers...

      However, with the current .NET framework it really does not matter. Yes, VB.NET classes definitions are an eye sore (too verbose in my opinion), but it doesnt take long to swap between one or the other... Meaning it really does not matter.

      On the Silverlight... Never been there because I personally feel as a consultant that Silverlight died when Android and iOS came on the scene... Meaning, moving forward it makes more sense to push a rich enviroment to client devices than on a browser.

    16. Re:This entire story... by trollertron3000 · · Score: 1

      It's not snobbery if one of the two makes about 10-15k more per year on average. C# is a better choice career-wise IMHO.

      And of course I prefer c# syntax. I'm not half a retard. Just kidding. ;-) But not at all...

      --
      Tiger Blooded Bi-Winning Machine
    17. Re:This entire story... by murdocj · · Score: 1

      C# and VB.Net are two different syntaxes for using the same common runtime library. Arguing about whether C# is better or worse than VB.Net is the height of language snobbery. What matters is the .Net library underneath. The only reason to prefer one over the other is because you happen to prefer one syntax over the other.

      Sorry but if are going to call yourself a "professional" developer then you should know the syntax of Java and/or C#. Once you know one of those languages then you should be able to move between the two fairly easily as the job/project requires. If you go from knowing VB and learn only VB.NET then you will be limiting yourself considerably.

      There are a number of languages which you can access Cocoa from on OS X but I would hardly consider all of them equal to each other.

      Where in my post did you see anything about not knowing Java or C#? And what does Cocoa have to do with .Net development?

      C# and VB.Net are two "skins" on the same underlying framework. If you are a language snob, you may not like it, but VB.Net developers can do EXACTLY the same functions that C# developers do. This kind of snobbery is what limits you from being a "professional" developer.

    18. Re:This entire story... by murdocj · · Score: 1

      Once you know VB.Net, you know C#, and vice versa. Maybe a day to adapt to the syntax. I've actually looked at code and had to think for a second about whether I was looking at C# or VB.Net.

    19. Re:This entire story... by cyclomedia · · Score: 1

      Don't forget "Exit For" and "Exit While" instead of break; - which not only explains exactly what's happening but also allows you to jump straight out of two nested loops on occasion if they are of different kinds, something you can't do in C#.

      I also Like VB.Net's shortcut initialiser/constructor Dim foo as New ClassWithReallyReallyLongName() though C# now has var which does the same thing.

      Where I work 3 out of 5 of us code C# for fun in our spare time. And in a way I'm glad that my job isn't the same as my hobby.

      --
      If you don't risk failure you don't risk success.
    20. Re:This entire story... by Stooshie · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry but you obviously have know knowledge of how .net works. It is syntax agnostic, you can write exactly the same functionality in both syntaxes and both syntaxes access all the same functionality. It doesn't matter what syntax you write in, they both do the same thing and you can program equally badly(or well) in both.

      --
      America, Home of the Brave. ... .and the Squaw.
    21. Re:This entire story... by Stooshie · · Score: 1

      Except flash, perhaps.

      --
      America, Home of the Brave. ... .and the Squaw.
    22. Re:This entire story... by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry but you obviously have know knowledge of how .net works. It is syntax agnostic, you can write exactly the same functionality in both syntaxes and both syntaxes access all the same functionality. It doesn't matter what syntax you write in, they both do the same thing and you can program equally badly(or well) in both.

      I'm sorry but I do know how .NET works. .NET merely provides a framework/abstraction layer to the underlying OS APIs. There is nothing that you can do in .NET that you could not do outside of it but the framework just makes some things easier to do.

      Syntax can be very influential on coding style and code quality.

      I see no advantage for non-VB programmer to use VB.NET since everything you can do in VB.NET can be done in C#. I also feel that any advantages of familiarity of syntax that VB.NET brings to VB programmers is outweighed by the potential for bad programming practices being brought over from their VB 6 days. VB is a horrid syntax and needs to die.

      Having experience with languages like Java or C# allows you to pick up either language quickly as well as other languages.

      In my career, I have moved through the following languages: C/C++, Clipper, Perl, VFP (6-9), C#, Java and Python. In my current project I have code in the following languages: C#, Python and Java. The latter is only used for unit testing rules against a rules engine.

      Out of all of those languages that I mentioned, only C/C++ and Clipper were languages that I learned while in school and everything else was picked up on the job. I never found a use for Assembly or COBOL in my career so far.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
  6. McDonalds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, VB is the McDonalds of programming. And Silverlight is a big clown ...

    Very appropriate book in that regards :)

  7. Why won't VB go away ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every time I work in VB a piece of me dies.

    1. Re:Why won't VB go away ? by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, good 'ol Me.dies()

    2. Re:Why won't VB go away ? by Orne · · Score: 1

      Protected Overrides Sub Finalize()
          MyBase.Finalize()
      End Sub

  8. Mod article flamebait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why post this, here of all places? My guess would be about 70% of Slashdot visitors hate Silverlight and 85% hate VB. Combine the two and you have a Slashdot article?

    1. Re:Mod article flamebait by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I'm a big Microsoft-hater, but I don't really see how Silverlight is any worse than Flash, so I can't hate on it too much. VB, however, is another story.

    2. Re:Mod article flamebait by zombiechan · · Score: 1

      Latest version of VB(VB.NET) isn't as bad is it once was(VB6). I still prefer languages that have a C-style to them, but I can put up with VB.NET if I have to.

    3. Re:Mod article flamebait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't really see how Silverlight is any worse than Flash, so I can't hate on it too much

      That's because you're not looking at the right comparison: how Silverlight and Flash is worse than Flash.

      If it was either/or, you might have an argument, but I don't see myself uninstalling Flash anytime soon.

    4. Re:Mod article flamebait by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I don't think I quite understand. No, I'm not uninstalling Flash either, because it's needed for far too many things (most notably YouTube). I'd be happy to replace it with Gnash or other FOSS alternative if it worked as well.

      But I don't really see how Silverlight makes the situation any worse. Of course, SL doesn't have nearly as much penetration as Flash, so it's not like there's a bunch of sites where I require it.

    5. Re:Mod article flamebait by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 4, Informative

      SL had the potential to be better than Flash.

      But Microsoft is pulling the same shit Adobe is with Flash. Claiming it's "open" but gaming the spec release schedule in such a manner that it is impossible for anything but their implementation to actually work - By the time someone has implemented to the open spec, MS and Adobe have released new versions and content providers are using those new versions.

      For example, there was hope that Monolight combined with Netflix transitioning to Silverlight would bring Netflix streaming to Linux. However, Netflix tracks Microsoft's Silverlight releases pretty quickly, meaning that on a consistent basis, by the time Monolight has caught up to wherever Netflix might have been, Netflix has moved on to the next Silverlight release. Same for nearly all other SL content out there.

      It's the same sad situation for any of the alternative Flash players - They continue to remain novelties because Adobe never seems to update the spec until they have released the next version of Flash, meaning Gnash et al are always at least a generation behind. Let's not forget the fact that the Flash spec is missing critical stuff such as RTMPE documentation. (The only public RTMPE documentation out there was obtained via reverse engineering Adobe's implementation.)

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    6. Re:Mod article flamebait by Raenex · · Score: 1

      I'm a big Microsoft-hater, but I don't really see how Silverlight is any worse than Flash, so I can't hate on it too much.

      The difference is that Microsoft has a near monopoly on the desktop, and everything they do revolves around reinforcing it.

    7. Re:Mod article flamebait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only public RTMPE documentation out there was obtained via reverse engineering Adobe's implementation

      That's probably the only documentation ANYWHERE...

    8. Re:Mod article flamebait by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Why post this, here of all places? My guess would be about 70% of Slashdot visitors hate Silverlight and 85% hate VB. Combine the two and you have a Slashdot article?

      That's 155% of slashdot readers who will hate this!

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    9. Re:Mod article flamebait by Guidii · · Score: 1

      Microsoft is [...] claiming it's "open" but gaming the spec release schedule...

      Um, seriously? You're upset that they continue developing the library?

      For example, there was hope that Monolight [...] would bring Netflix streaming to Linux. However, Netflix tracks Microsoft's Silverlight releases pretty quickly [...]

      Well, this is developer's choice, isn't it? If Netflix chose to support linux, they could do so. They chose not to.

    10. Re:Mod article flamebait by jddp · · Score: 1

      Why post this, here of all places? My guess would be about 70% of Slashdot visitors hate Silverlight and 85% hate VB.

      Apparently you think that being exposed to diverse viewpoints is a bad thing. 70% of Fox News fans hate Barack Obama. Wouldn't it be nice if they did some genuinely "Fair and Balanced" reporting on him sometime?

  9. a programmer's programmer using VB by larry+bagina · · Score: 2

    is like a gourmand's gourmand eating at mcdonald's.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    1. Re:a programmer's programmer using VB by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Yo, dawg. I herd you liked to program, so I put VB in your Silverlight so you can program while you program.

      Wait, what?

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:a programmer's programmer using VB by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Or a mechanic's mechanic working on a lawnmower.

      This is fun. We should do this more often.

    3. Re:a programmer's programmer using VB by SheeEttin · · Score: 1

      No, a mechanic's mechanic working on a Yugo.
      This is Slashdot, remember? We use car analogies here.

    4. Re:a programmer's programmer using VB by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but even a mechanic working on a Yugo sounds more legit than a programmer in VB.

    5. Re:a programmer's programmer using VB by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      A womanizer's womanizer with a blow-up doll?

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    6. Re:a programmer's programmer using VB by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      I love .NET, love C#, and love Silverlight. But I agree, I don't understand why anyone would ever use VB. It's shit.

    7. Re:a programmer's programmer using VB by jddp · · Score: 0

      ...or perhaps a snob's snob finding a reason to be civil? No, that seems to be too much of a stretch judging from the evidence here. MM wrote this for C# also, and some of us are lucky enough to program in both languages. (Is that like mixing with the hoi polloi? Shame on me!).

    8. Re:a programmer's programmer using VB by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Hey, I work in VB too, but only because I have to, not by choice.

    9. Re:a programmer's programmer using VB by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      a programmers programmer needs amazon click cash too.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  10. VB is dead. by el_jake · · Score: 0

    Nuff said..

    --
    In order to form an immaculate member of a flock of sheep one must, above all, be a sheep.
    1. Re:VB is dead. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yet I still see job openings for VB developers.

    2. Re:VB is dead. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called turn over.

    3. Re:VB is dead. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Office 2003 automation porting to 2007. That's about the last part that's left. After it's in .Net, it doesn't take too long to rewrite in C# while having mixed-language code in the interim. The real PITA would be in porting a GUI with a lot of forms.

    4. Re:VB is dead. by RingDev · · Score: 1

      You do realise that VB.Net != VB, correct?

      Saying VB.Net is dead is akin to saying that C# is dead. Which makes virtually no sense.

      So long as Microsoft continues developing the .Net framework, there will be a VB.Net and C#, along with all the other .Net languages.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    5. Re:VB is dead. by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      You do realise that VB.Net != VB, correct?

      Saying VB.Net is dead is akin to saying that C# is dead. Which makes virtually no sense.

      So long as Microsoft continues developing the .Net framework, there will be a VB.Net and C#, along with all the other .Net languages.

      -Rick

      Personally, I'm waiting for Android.net as that seems to be the new platform everyone is wanting to develop for. And, if that is true, that most new jobs being created will be Android related, then, actually VB.Net and C#.Net are dead, unless Microsoft is going to port .Net to Android.

      Of course, .Net will be around for a long, long time. Look how long ago COBOL "died" and yet there is still a strong demand for COBOL programmers.

    6. Re:VB is dead. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Personally, I'm waiting for Android.net as that seems to be the new platform everyone is wanting to develop for.

      Because any computing task worthy of the name can be done better on a 3" mobile phone screen and tiny virtual keyboard.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  11. MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by Suki+I · · Score: 1

    MacDonald is a programmer's programmer,

    I thought it was the beginning of an SAT question.

    1. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by __aamnbm3774 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I thought it was a Trick Question!
      Professional and VB in the same sentence is incorrect grammar, right?

    2. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lulz!

    3. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      No, that's a full on syntax error, I can't implicitly convert between those two.

    4. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by iplayfast · · Score: 1

      MacDonald is a programmer's programmer,

      To know recursion you must first know recursion.
      To know MacDonald is a programmer, you must first know a programmer's programmer.

    5. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by Massacrifice · · Score: 2

      I can't implicitly convert between those two.

      If you were using VB, you could! Especially if it wasn't what you wanted!

      --
      -- Home is where you eat your heart out.
    6. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hardy har har. These slights against VB are so funny and original.

    7. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Awww, someone has an associates degree!

    8. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by jddp · · Score: 0

      Perhaps if you understood the difference between grammar/syntax and meaning/semantics you might make a decent programmer - in VB or any other language.

    9. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by siride · · Score: 1

      That's what makes it all the funnier. In his joke, it's not just a semantic error, it's actually syntactically incorrect to have those two words in the same sentence, just like you can't have two articles before the same noun.

    10. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm so sick of those idiotic snobbish comments.

      What is it you can't do using VB that you can do in C#./Java .
      From my experience Java suck much more than VB .

      COBOL ??? runs most of our banking system code.

      Let's get away from "fashion programming" and just focus on getting the job done well no matter the tool

    11. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by __aamnbm3774 · · Score: 1

      I was just typing a quick joke. His response proves even further that I should stay away from VB programmers FOREVER.

    12. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >What is it you can't do using VB that you can do in C#/Java?

      Enjoy a clean conscience.

    13. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm so sick of those idiotic snobbish comments.

      What is it you can't do using VB that you can do in C#./Java .

      C#, almost nothing. Java, well, let's have a think...

      • Run it on the platform of your choosing
      • Port it to the platform of your choosing, if it hasn't been ported already
      • Examine the source code to understand how it works
      • Download the full stack at zero-cost, along with a huge ecosystem of tools, add-ons and integration middleware
      • Add functionality to it without getting sued by its owner
      • Depend on it being there for as long as there are users will to support it, unlike VB which was killed off and replace with VB.Net at enormous cost

      COBOL ??? runs most of our banking system code.

      I give up. Does it ???

      From my experience Java suck much more than VB .

      How interesting. Please explain exactly how it suck much more. From your experience.

      Let's get away from "fashion programming" and just focus on getting the job done well no matter the tool

      In 20 years of programming, I have yet to see a job done well in VB, apart from quick front-end user query utilities. It's good at that, if rather over-priced for the job.

      Sounds like you've invested a lot of time in learning VB. Guess you must be feeling pretty angry about that now.

    14. Re:MacDonald is a programmer's programmer, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm so sick of those idiotic snobbish comments.

      What is it you can't do using VB that you can do in C#./Java .

      C#, almost nothing. Java, well, let's have a think...

      You left out one very important one:

      - Use it to develop mobile apps on phones that are used by people other than Microsoft employees.

  12. Advance shill notice by sirdude · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While I don't know if this review is a "paid" review or not, I do know (from personal experience) that a lot of them are. Could /. consider adding a rule or guideline requesting the reviewer to state if he/she was given the book for free or otherwise compensated for the review?

    1. Re:Advance shill notice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But slashdot would run out of articles! We have to prop up shill posters or the slashconomy will collapse.

    2. Re:Advance shill notice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MacDonald is one of the better authors on Microsoft tech, better than the average bear. So I would guess that this submission is not a shill job from the publisher or author, although of course that's possible.

    3. Re:Advance shill notice by jddp · · Score: 2

      Great proposal. Here's my disclaimer. I was given the book for free. I forked out $50 for its predecessor (SL3). I thought the old book was great, and I loved the additions to the new one too. The main problems with it are those I identified in the review. My first para was probably too gushy, and who reads beyon the first para? I have easier ways to earn $60 (spare me the jokes), and were I paid in cash I wouldn't have spent it on an update to a book I already owned. Said that in the review too.

    4. Re:Advance shill notice by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      While I don't know if this review is a "paid" review or not, I do know (from personal experience) that a lot of them are. Could /. consider adding a rule or guideline requesting the reviewer to state if he/she was given the book for free or otherwise compensated for the review?

      Er, most proper book reviewers get their books for free.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    5. Re:Advance shill notice by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      it's not only reviewer who is suspect but the guy who gets to plaster his amazon ref id on the link.. hint to slashdot: it's more credible if the reviews chosen actually tell something of the book and there are no ref id's.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    6. Re:Advance shill notice by sirdude · · Score: 1

      Thank you :) I hope Taco et al. are listening.

    7. Re:Advance shill notice by sirdude · · Score: 1
      It's not very *proper* of them if they do not disclose that fact, is it? Considering the fact that most of /. believes in openness, neutrality and transparency, I'd say that disclaimers are a necessary prerequisite.

      I can also tell you that it is often the case that authors are requested by the publisher to "recommend" reviewers for them to approach. If suitable targets are not acquired, they leverage their own private and consequently partisan fleet of buoyant yes-men to craft 1000-word critiques suitable for dissemination and mass consumption.

    8. Re:Advance shill notice by sirdude · · Score: 1

      Looking at other reviews, I believe that the "guy" in the ref link is /. itself. It's not the reviewer.

  13. What? by Attack+DAWWG · · Score: 1

    Did someone actually just mention /. and editorial guidelines in the same sentence?

  14. Really /. ? by thewebsiteisdown · · Score: 1

    This is about as flamebait as they get... dropping an review on VB, the most Microsoft of Microsoft languages, in this place is like dropping off your son to sell lemonade at a NAMBLA convention.

    1. Re:Really /. ? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      It's good to see you keeping that legendary slashdot sense of proportion.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  15. Here we go by Yvan256 · · Score: 0

    A book review (which we all think is just free publicity/compensated review) about a competitor to Flash (which most of us don't like) from Microsoft (which most of us hate) in VB (which is a joke to most programmers, which comes from Microsoft).

    Just because Microsoft offers Silverlight for Mac doesn't mean people are going to install it. I bought a Mac to get away from Microsoft. I wouldn't install anything from them on my computer even if they paid me. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

    I predict 90% troll/flamebait and 0.01% insightful comments. The rest, 9.99%, is the usual pointless comments such as this one.

    1. Re:Here we go by thewebsiteisdown · · Score: 1

      My only defense of VB in general is this.... if you are programming for Windows and the .NET framework anyway, then its tomato/tomato (pronounce the latter like a french douche). I write for and maintain several enterprise level apps in VB, and others in C#. It does not matter one damn bit which you use, they are equivalent in every way. Anything you can do in C#, I can do in VB... and C#. People that bash one over the other usually cant code in either, or very well in any language.

    2. Re:Here we go by DAldredge · · Score: 4, Funny

      What is so horrible about Microsoft?

    3. Re:Here we go by zombiechan · · Score: 1

      It doesn't mean that this book is useless. I know Microsoft shops that have developers who prefer VB.NET over C#. I could see this skill could come in handy for someone in that position.

    4. Re:Here we go by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Another stupid AC who thinks everyone buys a Mac because it's "trendy". Believe me, it has nothing to do with it. If they hadn't switched to a Unix core (or a BeOS core) I wouldn't use it. The classic Mac OS wasn't much better than Windows 98SE.

      Plus, I couldn't afford a Prius to begin with, not to mention that most new diesel Volkswagen models have better kilometerage than a Prius. And they cost less.

      And forget about San Francisco. Earthquakes.

    5. Re:Here we go by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      *sigh*

      VB is a programming language that's definitely in use. Why the rush to write it off?

      I hate Perl and Lisp, but I don't drag them through the mud. They're tools people use to accomplish tasks like any other language.

      Or closer to home, I hate Macs (I have 2, and only the Mac Mini is in use, and that's just so I can compile iDevice apps... talk about proprietary) but they're a tool people use. So why drag them through the mud?

      And people will install it if they want to use the app written in Silverlight. Or they'll find an alternative and use it. Platform agnosticism... choice is good.

      Either way, your post is a troll.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    6. Re:Here we go by Massacrifice · · Score: 1

      What is so horrible about Microsoft?

      To start, the company's name is soooo lame. You can figure out the guys that started this weren't really into originality. I mean, I know this was the 70's and all, but c'mon : Micro. Soft. Microsoft. That's so duh, I dont know what else to say.

      --
      -- Home is where you eat your heart out.
    7. Re:Here we go by RagingMaxx · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's not a case of tomato/tomato (pronounced in an ENGLISH accent, French people say 'tomate'). When two languages are functionally equivalent then other factors must be taken into account when deciding which language to use for a project.

      In the case of C# it has very similar syntax to C++ (and by extension Java), which means that many experienced developers will be familiar with the basic syntax. All that can be said of VB.NET is that existing VB 'developers' will be comfortable with the syntax.

      So honestly, from which group would you rather your developers come from?

      The only reason to choose VB.NET for a project is if the project is ALREADY IN VB.NET.

    8. Re:Here we go by kanto · · Score: 1

      To start, the company's name is soooo lame. You can figure out the guys that started this weren't really into originality. I mean, I know this was the 70's and all, but c'mon : Micro. Soft. Microsoft. That's so duh, I dont know what else to say.

      Are you implying that Bill Gates used his porn name?

    9. Re:Here we go by DAldredge · · Score: 0

      And why is the Unix core so much better than an NT core?

    10. Re:Here we go by Alex+Belits · · Score: 2

      At this point Unix-like design is a foundation of all general-purpose operating systems, EXCEPT ones developed by Microsoft. There is a good reason for it, however explanation would be a book on OS design in itself, and therefore beyond the scope of a response to some retard's offhand comment on Slashdot.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    11. Re:Here we go by DAldredge · · Score: 0

      You know it isn't often that I get to see a /. member with such a low UID act like a complete and total jack ass.  Perhaps, in the future, you might want to try avoiding comments like "response to some retard's offhand comment on Slashdot"

      Thinks simply work better that way.

    12. Re:Here we go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is so horrible about Microsoft?

      To start, the company's name is soooo lame. You can figure out the guys that started this weren't really into originality. I mean, I know this was the 70's and all, but c'mon : Micro. Soft. Microsoft. That's so duh, I dont know what else to say.

      Maybe you could suggest a better name to begin with !!!
      Would help in making you not look like just another idiot Microsoft basher ....

    13. Re:Here we go by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      I would rather prefer not.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    14. Re:Here we go by wildstoo · · Score: 1

      They need a name that's cutting-edge like...

      ...CutCo

      ...EdgeCom

      ...InterSlice

      No, wait, how about... CompuGlobalHyperMegaNet?

    15. Re:Here we go by wildstoo · · Score: 1

      I sympathize, because I feel exactly the same way about Apple software on my Windows machines. Installing ITunes, Quicktime, Safari et al. on Windows is like intentionally infecting your computer with malware. You might as well just rip some memory out of your motherboard and replace your hard drive with a dead chipmunk.

      Horses for courses.

    16. Re:Here we go by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I had always thought that they took the name "micro-soft" from Neuromancer, but a quick check shows that MS preceded the novel, so William Gibson must in fact have been referencing them, who knew they were so hip once?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    17. Re:Here we go by thewebsiteisdown · · Score: 1

      So, you are implying that being comfortable with the syntax and instructions of VB precludes you from being an elitist fucktard curly-bracket programmer? I think not, it just means said ft's are insular and critical of anything that doesnt fit neatly into their own skillset. Oh, and the french pronunciation is even gayer, so Ill go with the alternate spelling you provided. Thanks!!!

    18. Re:Here we go by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      I heard that Bill Gates himself is going to "buy you out".

  16. yeah really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    if slashdot wanted a review of a retarded language book, "php for complete drooling dumbasses" would have been better.

  17. Re:fpfpfpfpfp by wallyh010 · · Score: 1

    There's no better language than the one you know.

  18. Dijkstra's response by bongey · · Score: 0

    "the teaching of BASIC should be rated as a criminal offence: it mutilates the mind beyond recovery. '"Edsger W. Dijkstra
    Can we please let basic die? We don't need another book about a horrible language.

    1. Re:Dijkstra's response by zombiechan · · Score: 1

      except this book is about VB.Net BASIC != VB.Net

    2. Re:Dijkstra's response by thedudethedude · · Score: 1

      except this book is about VB.Net BASIC != VB.Net

      Guilty by association

    3. Re:Dijkstra's response by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Whether you agree with the statement or not, it is an out and out troll. Do you really want to be quoting trolls?

    4. Re:Dijkstra's response by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      "the teaching of BASIC should be rated as a criminal offence: it mutilates the mind beyond recovery. '"Edsger W. Dijkstra Can we please let basic die? We don't need another book about a horrible language.

      Mr Dickstrangler would fit in well with the hysterical language zealots on slashdot. BASIC gets people started with programming. If they are interested they will move on to other languages, only the most retarded/uninterested will get stuck with only being able to write BASIC for ever.

      His comment is like saying "if you start by reading Janet and John books - here is Janet, here is John, here is the dog, see the dog run, etc.- then you will never be able to read adult literature."

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    5. Re:Dijkstra's response by bongey · · Score: 1

      Troll? How ? I would want to know how.
      Have you worked with a VB.NET/VB mixed code base? It is horrible.
      I guess Dijkstra is troll too.

    6. Re:Dijkstra's response by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      That is who I was talking about. Yes, claiming that a programming language "mutilates the mind beyond recovery" is classic trolling. It is also a classic "appeal from authority" argument.

  19. Silverlight? Born a dinosaur, always a dinosaur by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.downarchive.com/ebooks/330070-pro-silverlight-4-in-vb.html - but if you're still interested.

  20. Pro .Net by RingDev · · Score: 1

    In the .Net world, it's not quite that straight forward. For instance, Visual Studio 2010 is almost fully a .Net application (some parts are legacy C++ libraries/controls that just didn't get converted before launch). But being .Net just means that it was compiled to the .Net intermediate language. It could have been written in VB.Net, C#, J#, F#, PHP.Net, or any of the other high level .Net languages.

    That's the awesome part of .Net. You can write in what ever language you are familiar with, against the same framework that everyone else uses. The majority of difference between C# and VB at this point are due to there having been 2 teams at MS working on the VB.Net and C# editors for Visual Studio. Now, those teams have been merged. VB.Net has single line parameters, C# has XML Literals, and they are continuing to become more and more similar functionally speaking. The only big difference left now is multi-line lambdas and that C# is case sensitive.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    1. Re:Pro .Net by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And then have it only run on one platform. Amazing, vendor lock-in of many languages at once!

    2. Re:Pro .Net by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      Ever heard of Mono?

    3. Re:Pro .Net by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, it does not support everything, is a patent mine field and is aptly named after a disease.

    4. Re:Pro .Net by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 2

      Yeah, it does not support everything,

      Correct. You have much better portability by writing software in Mono and then porting back to .NET, although there are plenty of extensions in Mono that don't exist in Microsoft's implementation too.

      is a patent mine field

      Only because people like you keep saying that it is. In the real world, nobody is suing anybody over this technology. For Microsoft, Mono provides a legitimacy for their language to show that it really is cross platform, open standard. It would be a public relations nightmare if they did an about face on this. The general public won't be able to make the distinction between technology that is covered by the Microsoft Community Promise Agreement and the parts that is not.

      and is aptly named after a disease.

      You can't catch this from just by using software.

    5. Re:Pro .Net by DAldredge · · Score: 2

      What patents does Mono violate that no other language violates?

    6. Re:Pro .Net by Raenex · · Score: 0, Troll

      For Microsoft, Mono provides a legitimacy for their language to show that it really is cross platform, open standard.

      Yes, and this is why anybody who believes in open standards should stay away from Mono. If you follow Microsoft's lead you will get burned.

      It would be a public relations nightmare if they did an about face on this.

      They won't give a shit once they get beyond the adoption stage. They'll just tell everybody to license their intellectual property that they invested in. You're not a communist, are you? Don't they deserve to get paid?

      The general public won't be able to make the distinction between technology that is covered by the Microsoft Community Promise Agreement and the parts that is not.

      Exactly. First you swallow the open parts, then you eat the rest, and finally you're locked in.

    7. Re:Pro .Net by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 1

      If you care a lot about that, then This Is Not For You.

      I mean, I don't like vanilla ice cream, but I'd have to be seriously pompous to rant about how wrong people who like it are.

    8. Re:Pro .Net by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 2

      Yes, and this is why anybody who believes in open standards should stay away from Mono. If you follow Microsoft's lead you will get burned.

      That doesn't make sense. There was nothing in what I said that could lead you to that conclusion. It is you own hatred of Microsoft makes you believe it. When has Microsoft ever made a promise not to sue for patent infringement about a public, free licence, and then turned around and sued anyway?

      They won't give a shit once they get beyond the adoption stage. They'll just tell everybody to license their intellectual property that they invested in.

      There is more than one standard covered by a promise not to sue. If they reneg on this one then all of their promises would be null and void. They wouldn't be able to convince anyone to use their standards then.

      You're not a communist, are you? Don't they deserve to get paid?

      I see we are dealing with an intellectual giant here. It was Microsoft who set the price for their licence, not me. They decided to give it away, as is their right. It is also their right to change the terms of their offers, but they know that the backlash against them would be very damaging if they screwed around with such a high profile agreement.

      First you swallow the open parts, then you eat the rest, and finally you're locked in.

      Then only use their standardised stuff. Use the C# language, compiled to .NET with Mono's extensions. Then you will be OK. But I don't think you need to worry. People have been saying that Microsoft will sue for 7 years, but it still hadn't happened. You can believe that they will do it, but there is no evidence to support that view.

    9. Re:Pro .Net by Raenex · · Score: 0

      When has Microsoft ever made a promise not to sue for patent infringement about a public, free licence, and then turned around and sued anyway?

      I never said they did or will. I said, "anybody who believes in open standards should stay away from Mono. If you follow Microsoft's lead you will get burned."

      The problem is by following Microsoft's lead, you'll put them in a position of power. People will be more inclined to adopt the non-Community Promise stuff like Silverlight, because people like Miguel have decided to endorse it.

      Microsoft already has a patent deal with Novell and it's distribution of Linux. Don't want to be sued by Microsoft for using Linux? Buy Novell and pay royalties to Microsoft. This has already happened. It's old news.

      Later on, if Silverlight is adopted by the web as a whole, in part because it is "cross-platform", then they can just pull the plug on Linux. New versions will be tied to Windows. The idea of being cross-platform will be quietly dropped.

      This already happened with IE. It used to be available to Linux, back when it first came out and they were competing with Netscape, which was cross-platform. IE ended up dominating Netscape and the Linux version was dropped.

      See, I don't just speak from blind hatred. I speak from experience and a hatred of monopolies. I shouldn't have to pay Microsoft a royalty to use a computer. The industry is slowly chipping away at Microsoft's monopoly. It's taken over ten years to get this far. Back in 1999 something like 98% of people browsed the web with IE. Apple was near death. Linux had almost no presence on the desktop.

      Now Windows is still strong on the desktop, but not nearly as much. With the exception of laptops, they're failing almost completely in mobile. Firefox has made large gains on the Web. A computer industry not dominated by Microsoft actually seems possible.

      Now they're making a push with .NET and Silverlight to try and get it back. Making C# and parts of .NET open is just a lever to gain adoption. Microsoft has, and always will, use their technologies to reinforce their desktop monopoly. If you believe in open standards, then you should not follow Microsoft's lead.

    10. Re:Pro .Net by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 2

      When has Microsoft ever made a promise not to sue for patent infringement about a public, free licence, and then turned around and sued anyway?

      I never said they did or will. I said, "anybody who believes in open standards should stay away from Mono. If you follow Microsoft's lead you will get burned."

      Well, unless you mean that Microsoft will literally come around and set fire to you, then I can't see what other reasonable interpretation there could be. You claim this isn't about being sued by Microsoft, but then you go on to say:

      Microsoft already has a patent deal with Novell and it's distribution of Linux. Don't want to be sued by Microsoft for using Linux? Buy Novell and pay royalties to Microsoft.

      So you ARE talking about being sued. How much of that deal was just a PR exercise anyway? It is not as if any other distro has been sued - especially for something that Microsoft promised to keep free. The only close thing would be TomTom being sued for using FAT32, but then that is a technology that is actively licenced and has NEVER been given away. TomTom was violating the licence, and if it were the GPL licence that they violated then nobody around here would complain if they got sued.

      But back to the topic in hand. If your entire reason to avoid Mono is because you might decide to go off and use another product (Silverlight), then surely you should be arguing against using Silverlight and leave Mono alone. To use a car analogy, it is like arguing that you should not buy a car because you might one day upgrade to a tank and shoot at people. A car will still get you from point A to point B even if you don't buy a tank, and Mono will still work if Microsoft decide to drop Silverlight. There is still no justification for your advice to stay away from Mono.

    11. Re:Pro .Net by Raenex · · Score: 1

      You claim this isn't about being sued by Microsoft

      I wish you would stop paraphrasing me, badly. What I'm disputing is the following statement from you: "When has Microsoft ever made a promise not to sue for patent infringement about a public, free licence, and then turned around and sued anyway?"

      The key point here is all the other parts tied to the non-public stuff. I spent several paragraphs on it. I am not claiming, and have never claimed, that Microsoft will sue over a patent after they granted you royalty-free rights to use it.

      So you ARE talking about being sued.

      DETAILS MATTER. See above. I also talked a lot about other issues besides lawsuits.

      How much of that deal was just a PR exercise anyway?

      Umm, you're going to summarize litigation threats in an effort to gather royalties from Linux users as Public Relations? What the fuck.

      But back to the topic in hand. If your entire reason to avoid Mono is because you might decide to go off and use another product (Silverlight), then surely you should be arguing against using Silverlight and leave Mono alone.

      I spent several paragraphs defending my reasoning. You have summarily ignored them with a stupid car to tank analogy.

      Is there an easy upgrade path from a car to a tank? No. Is there any evidence that people will likely upgrade from a car to a tank? No. Do people who adopt Mono often adopt other technologies like Silverlight? Yes, just look at the Mono team itself, headed up by Miguel. People often point to Moonlight when talking about Silverlight and being cross-platform.

      Does Microsoft have a history of playing the cross-platform game, and then dropping it once they achieve dominance? Yes. Is Microsoft a convicted, abusive monopoly? Yes. Have they lost some of their dominance and are trying to gain it back by dabbling in open standards? Yes. Have they done this before? Yes.

    12. Re:Pro .Net by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What patents does Mono violate that no other language violates?

      235 of them, but they still won't tell us which 235.

    13. Re:Pro .Net by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

      You claim this isn't about being sued by Microsoft

      I wish you would stop paraphrasing me, badly.

      Huh? What exactly is wrong with my statement? I asked "When has Microsoft ever made a promise not to sue for patent infringement about a public, free licence, and then turned around and sued anyway?" and you answered "I never said they did or will." That looks incredibly like you are saying that this isn't about being sued by Microsoft. So if you agree that you are not in danger of being sued for using Mono, what is your problem with it? Let's see:

      Later on, if Silverlight is adopted by the web as a whole, in part because it is "cross-platform", then they can just pull the plug on Linux. New versions will be tied to Windows. The idea of being cross-platform will be quietly dropped.

      So let me get this straight. The danger in using some open source software is that a company might pull the plug on some other proprietary software that you are not using. That does not make sense.

      So what if some people might be tempted to move across to Silverlight? Do you disuade someone from using OpenOffice because they will suffer from vendor they move across to Microsoft Office? (Is that better than a car analogy?) Your entire argument is not based on problems with people starting to use Mono, but with problems of people stopping the use of Mono.

      DETAILS MATTER. See above. I also talked a lot about other issues besides lawsuits.

      None of your issues have been at all relevant to the subject.

      • Microsoft drops Silverlight or IE for Linux (wasn't it just for Solaris)?
        Mono keeps working.
      • Microsoft makes a patent deal with Novell?
        Mono works even better.
      • You don't want to "pay Microsoft a royalty to use a computer"?
        Mono is free.
      • Microsoft's market share has been reduced by open source software?
        Mono will continue this trend.
      • Microsoft is trying to use ".NET and Silverlight to try and get (their marketshare) back"?
        Umm, so what? Didn't you ask me earlier if I was a communist for not wanting a company to get paid for their services? Why do you have a problem with one wanting to increase their marketshare?
      • "Microsoft has, and always will, use their technologies to reinforce their desktop monopoly"?
        Use Mono on Linux to stick it to the man!
      • "People often point to Moonlight when talking about Silverlight and being cross-platform"?
        Umm, so what again?
      • "Does Microsoft have a history of playing the cross-platform game, and then dropping it once they achieve dominance? Yes."
        And yet as far as I know they have never gone back on one of their Microsoft Community Promises (which is what would be required to stop the Mono project)
      • "Microsoft a convicted, abusive monopoly? Yes"?
        Right, last century and not in anyway like today's issue.
      • "Have they done this before? Yes"?
        No.
    14. Re:Pro .Net by Raenex · · Score: 1

      What exactly is wrong with my statement?

      You're really pissing me off. You keep moving between a specific scenario to a generalization, as if the two were equal.

      That looks incredibly like you are saying that this isn't about being sued by Microsoft.

      Not being sued by Microsoft for a granted patent != sued by Microsoft for non-granted patents. Can you see the difference now? Can you please stop equating the two?

      So if you agree that you are not in danger of being sued for using Mono

      No, I don't agree and never said that. Mono is a large project that goes well beyond the Community Promise stuff.

      The danger in using some open source software is that a company might pull the plug on some other proprietary software that you are not using. That does not make sense.

      I've already explained my reasoning. The danger is adopting Mono leads to greater adoption of proprietary parts, and strengthens Microsoft's hand. You act like Mono exists in isolation and is made up of only the Community Promise bits. Neither is true.

      Microsoft has, and always will, use their technologies to reinforce their desktop monopoly. If you believe in open standards, then you should not follow Microsoft's lead.

    15. Re:Pro .Net by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

      You're really pissing me off. You keep moving between a specific scenario to a generalization, as if the two were equal.

      That's funny. I'm getting pissed off because you can't address the specific claim, but instead keep wandering off into unrelated scenarios about different products and then spew general anti-Microsoft FUD. But then you went on to say:

      Mono is a large project that goes well beyond the Community Promise stuff.

      Wow, that is actually about the correct software package. Maybe we are finally going to see some insightful argument that blows my position out of the ballpark...

      The danger is adopting Mono leads to greater adoption of proprietary parts, and strengthens Microsoft's hand.

      Oh no! You have gone back to reiterating an old FUD claim, one that apparently required the user to switch away from Mono for it to become true. Here's a tip: constant repetition of a statement is not the same as a well-reasoned argument.

      You act like Mono exists in isolation and is made up of only the Community Promise bits.

      Well, obviously I don't because I covered this explicitly in my first message. I said that "the general public won't be able to make the distinction between technology that is covered by the Microsoft Community Promise Agreement and the parts that is not". When the FAT32/TomTom litigation happened, people claimed that Microsoft was going after Linux; that this was the start of the war against open source. In fact, they were just going after TomTom. Most of their claims weren't even about any open source software, and those that were involved TomTom using a Microsoft-invented technology for which MS did have an active licence program. It didn't stop a lot of people confusing the story into thinking that their evil enemy was going to try to kill off Linux in the courts.

      Microsoft has, and always will, use their technologies to reinforce their desktop monopoly.

      Here's a tip: constant repetition of a statement is not the same as a well-reasoned argument.

      If you believe in open standards, then you should not follow Microsoft's lead.

      Here's a tip: constant repetition of a statement is not the same as a well-reasoned argument. Yes, I know that I am hypocritically repeating myself, but I am being ironic to prove a point.

      I have seen this same FUD claim that Microsoft will stop Mono for 7 years, and yet they still haven't made any move to kill off the project. I bet that we will come back in another 7 years time and they still will not have done anything to stop it. Even then, there will be people such as yourself still clinging to the claim that it is too dangerous to use Mono.

      It is clear that neither of us are going to accept the other's view. I see no reason to continue this discussion.

    16. Re:Pro .Net by Raenex · · Score: 1

      I'm getting pissed off because you can't address the specific claim, but instead keep wandering off into unrelated scenarios about different products and then spew general anti-Microsoft FUD.

      My message has always been the same. The problem is that you wrongly equated it with some stupid claim about Microsoft granting a patent and then suing anyways. I then spent several messages trying to refute that same stupid equation, because you kept on making it.

      You act like Mono exists in isolation and is made up of only the Community Promise bits.

      Well, obviously I don't because I covered this explicitly in my first message. I said that "the general public won't be able to make the distinction between technology that is covered by the Microsoft Community Promise Agreement and the parts that is not".

      Indeed, yet in every message after that, including this one, you act as if Mono is just the Community Promise stuff in isolation, and any other connections don't matter. You use really dumb car to tank analogies as an example. You say there is no danger of being sued for Mono (developed by Novell), yet Microsoft only granted very specific Community Promise rights, has gone into greater patent deals with Novell, and already rattled their saber with nebulous claims about protecting their intellectual property, trying to bully people into buying a Microsoft-royalty version of Linux (which you unbelievably summarized as Public Relations).

      You completely dismiss the problems of technology creep, where Microsoft-proprietary technologies gain more adoption by it's relation to Community Promise software, yet it's obvious this happens in the real world and only helps Microsoft while they are trying to gain adoption of Silverlight as the next Flash.

      Here's a tip: constant repetition of a statement is not the same as a well-reasoned argument.

      I've been making well-reasoned arguments. I repeat the message at the end to summarize and reinforce.

      Microsoft has, and always will, use their technologies to reinforce their desktop monopoly.

      Bill Gates in 1991: "In the same way that DEC's strategy for the 80's was VAX -- one architecture, one operating system -- our strategy for the 90's is Windows -- one evolving architecture, a couple of implementations. Everything we do should focus on making Windows more successful."

      They executed that strategy to perfection in the 90s. Do you think anything has changed? Windows is still the center of their universe.

      If you believe in open standards, then you should not follow Microsoft's lead.

    17. Re:Pro .Net by jddp · · Score: 1

      VB.Net has single line parameters, C# has XML Literals, and they are continuing to become more and more similar functionally speaking. The only big difference left now is multi-line lambdas and that C# is case sensitive.

      -Rick

      Optional parameters have finally been added to C# in .NET 4. Another way C# is catching up with VB ;-)

      The majority of difference between C# and VB at this point are due to there having been 2 teams at MS working on the VB.Net and C# editors for Visual Studio. Now, those teams have been merged.

      -Rick

      Interesting. Even though it's a language/compiler-specific behavior, my least favorite part of the C# editing environment - the problem with annoyingly persistent squigglies - has got MUCH better. (i.e. when you fix a compiler error you can tell its fixed without having to recompile the whole project).

  21. Gourmand vs. Gourmet by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    [a programmer's programmer using VB] is like a gourmand's gourmand eating at mcdonald's.

    That analogy does not suggest what you probably mean to suggest. You are probably confusing "gourmand" (glutton) with "gourmet" (connoisseur of fine food).

    1. Re:Gourmand vs. Gourmet by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      ah, yes, like an analogist's analogist fucking up on slashdot.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  22. lol mac users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they bought macs because multiple mouse buttons confuse them.

  23. Not a quick buck book by feddas · · Score: 2

    Matthew MacDonald has been doing Silverlight books since version 1.0. I own his C# flavor of this 4.0 book. He's one of those authors that waits until a new technology has soaked in a bit, his book reflects that (as opposed to getting the book out their as soon as 4.0 was released). This book came out about 4 or 5 months after Silverlight 4.0 was released.

  24. New years resolution by mctee155 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I promised myself that if I used the .net framework on a project again I would shoot myself in the leg.
    So after I post this I am going read my ruby on rails book.

    1. Re:New years resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which RoR book are you reading?

      Just curious...looking for one myself, was wondering if you (or anyone) had recommendations.

      (The threadjack...it has begun!)

    2. Re:New years resolution by mctee155 · · Score: 1

      Just started reading Beginning Rails 3 by Cloves Carneiro Jr. and Rida Al Barazi. Its a beginners book. I was originally using lynda.com, they have a ruby on rails 3 essential training but it was too easy to get sidetracked just watching and not practicing.

    3. Re:New years resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cool, I'll check it out. See ya in the next Ruby thread :D

  25. Re:fpfpfpfpfp by Unoti · · Score: 1

    It's better to know more than one. This is particularly true if the one you know is VB.

  26. Unless.. by Isaac+Remuant · · Score: 1

    Unless it makes it harder for you to solve the problem at hand.

    Having a varied set of tools to solve a problem will allow you to choose the most adequate for the job.

    Needless to say, you need to know how to use what you have. It's not use having a gazillion of tools if you have no clue what to with them.

    --
    "Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
  27. Re:fpfpfpfpfp by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

    Silverlight & Visual Basic! Could it get any worse than this?

  28. Can't buy this by paxcoder · · Score: 1

    I can't buy this, I'm saving for Starter Shockwave 11 in FORTRAN