Egypt Shuts Off All Internet Access

h00manist writes "Several sources are reporting Egypt has shut off all Internet access. There is still no official confirmation. Blackberry, twitter and SMS seem confirmed off. So, if you were there, what would you do to get communications for everyone? Do you still have a POTS modem?"

Comments

HAM

[Amorymeltzer]

Seems like this is the moment the HAM radio folks always shine. I don't know what kind of following they've got in Egypt but I imagine it'd be pretty useful. That and texting.

Re:HAM

[Wyatt Earp]

Here is the website for the amateur radio operators of Egypt organization

http://www.qsl.net/egyptham/

Their call signs are - SUA-SUZ, 6A-6B, SSA-SSM
And wikipedia says theres about 113, really easy for the police and security forces to lock down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio_callsigns_of_the_Middle_East

Re:HAM

[Baseclass]

How are you supposed to get porn over HAM radio?

Re:HAM

[devilspgd]

Oh well, if it's prohibited then I'm sure /no one/ will lie about their call sign while trying to evade a gov't ban on communication.

Re:HAM

[CptNerd]

Back in the old, old days there was this software called "SLIP" that was developed by Hams around the world. It stood for "Serial Line Internet Protocol" and was one of the first packages that let people connect to the Internet via their home modems. This was before PPP. SLIP was developed so Hams could transmit IP packets wirelessly around the world. Hm, wireless IP, I wonder where I've heard that before...

Re:HAM

[Abstrackt]

Slow Scan Television (SSTV).

Re:HAM

[DrgnDancer]

You're completely offtopic, but what the hell. The logic is very simple to follow. I'm not a particularly huge controll person, and in fact have owned a fire arm at various times. Never the less I understand the argument, and it's perfectly reasonable. The idea is not that evil murders will have awful moral compunction about having a gun. Indeed professional criminals in countries with strict gun control laws often have them. It removes the availability of firearms for less serious criminals. If guns are illegal, and very few people have them, they can't be bought in stores, and possessing them is a crime, then only professional criminals with the resources to acquire them internationally (or those with authorization such as the police/military) will have them. Common street thugs, random looney kids with delusions of fame from an assassination, guys who are abusive and drunk and after their wives... None of them is likely to have a gun.

The real failure of this argument is not the poor and simplistic point you make, but rather the fact that guns pervade our country right now. Merely making them illegal would not do much to availability. Some would argue that it's worth doing anyway, in the hopes that it reduces availability in the long term. I question the usefulness of criminalizing a large segment of society in the hopes that it solve s problem decades from now. Much like Prohibition, it's bound to fail.

Re:HAM

[Dahamma]

Yeah, really useful until the giant antenna gives them away. And if they manage to make it stealthy, triangulating the signal isn't much more difficult...

Re:HAM

[mrchaotica]

If guns are illegal... then only professional criminals with the resources to acquire them internationally (or those with authorization such as the police/military) will have them.

And that's the key to understanding the issue of gun control in the US: the right to bear arms is a check against a corrupt or treasonous police/military. After all, what else would you expect from a country founded on violent revolution?

Re:HAM

[Pax681]

Amateur Radio certainly helped get intel out during the Falklands conflict

During the Falklands War in 1982, Argentine forces seized control of the phones and radio network on the islands and had cut off communications with London. Scottish amateur radio operator Les Hamilton, GM3ITN was able to relay crucial information from fellow hams Bob McLeod and Tony Pole-Evans on the islands to British military intelligence in London, including the details of troop deployment, bombing raids, radar bases and military activities. However, radio hams usually avoid controversial subjects and political situations and discussions as a part of the code of politeness of radio communications.

A BBC reporter called Laurie Margolis tried to claim he was the guy who first contacted and heard it. however it was not him at all. it was a Scotsman from Clydebank who provided and kept providing the critical information.

recording of it here

BBC page here

Re:HAM

[Tromad]

I would just like to say the US government really appreciates HAM radio operators. When I joined the local Community Emergency Response Team (CERT), a local government-setup disaster response unit, they continuously praised HAM radio operators as vital to disaster response teams.

Re:HAM

[nura78]

HAM radio isn't halal :-P

Re:HAM

[mangu]

if it's prohibited then I'm sure /no one/ will lie about their call sign while trying to evade a gov't ban on communication.

What's the use of lying about their call sign when they are sending a signal that points straight at their transmitter antenna?

Ham radio

[mapuche]

This works until the soldiers come for you.

Re:ham radio

[Thing 1]

Seems like any sort of "broadcast" method would be subject to detection. We need to launch a satellite that others can point at to "narrowcast", and avoid detection. Okay, now I'm on a watch list(tm).

Re:ham radio

[pjpII]

It currently looks like people are switching to more old fashioned means and using leaflets and word of mouth. Hold in mind that though Cairo, and many other Arab capitals are gigantic, they are often much more similar to a huge collection of small towns where everyone knows everyone (and everyone's business). Taking out the internet seems like a particularly desperate act, especially since the protests are expected to begin following Friday prayer (which the government can't forbid completely without REALLY losing legitimacy) when people will be gathered together already (and thus able to communicate.)

Re:Ham radio

[msauve]

No, you're not a ham. I've communicated half way 'round the world with a portable, battery operated set, using a 50' piece of wire.

Yes, you need a license to be "legal," but anyone can buy the hardware, and operate from anywhere, which can easily happen during political unrest. If there's a political uprising, do you seriously think lack of a license is going to get in someone's way? And do you seriously think that "keeping the internet [sic] running" is fundamental to communications? You've been spoiled by technology. A spark gap transmitter and crystal receiver is all that's needed to communicate over long ranges.

Re:Ham radio

[aiht]

Only one soldier needs an HF RDF.
Well okay, I guess two for triangulating, but my point is that the ones who are beating down your door don't need their own.

This is unacceptable

[Baseclass]

I've always considered Egypt to be on of the more progressive muslim states
Apparently I was mistaken.

Re:This is unacceptable

[h4rr4r]

So pretty much like the rest of the world?
Most of the world is like that you know.

Re:This is unacceptable

[Anonymous Coward]

The U.K. isn't so bad.

Re:This is unacceptable

[tayhimself]

Egypt is somewhat progressive for a muslim state, but that's not saying much. That said, make sure you don't confuse America friendly with progressive. The two do not go hand in hand, at least in the muslim world.

That said, Egypt has a decent sized Christian minority (15%) that I think does OK which again is rare for a muslim state

Re:This is unacceptable

[Anonymous Coward]

Just keep in mind, President Obama is now seeking additional powers to give him the ability to shut off the Internet in the United States in the event of an "emergency".

We seem to be getting closer to States such as Egypt faster than they are becoming like us.

Re:This is unacceptable

[h4rr4r]

Progressive?
They are ruled by a dictator who just happens to be US friendly.

Re:This is unacceptable

[h4rr4r]

Qatar is a Monarchy. They might be progressive compared to Saudi Arabia, but that is setting the bar mighty low.

Re:This is unacceptable

[cpu6502]

You overlooked Turkey which wants to become a State of the EU, and has to prove itself to be tolerant of other religions and basic human rights (as required by the Lisbon Treaty).

And YES I have a POTS modem, but it isn't much good without the internet. It would connect to my ISP and then have no website to access. And of course all the old BBSes I used to call directly have disappeared.

Some of the old Usenet and Fidonet newsgroup BBSes might still be alive, but I have no idea what their phone numbers are.

Re:This is unacceptable

[h4rr4r]

They do have sham elections, torture people for the USA even and have secret prisons.
Nice try though.

Re:This is unacceptable

[antifoidulus]

This has nothing to do with "religion" per se and everything to do with political power. They aren't cutting off the internet to prevent "Draw Muhammed Day", they are cutting it off to try to prevent a Tunisia style rebellion.

Re:This is unacceptable

[Anonymous Coward]

Turkey is a secular state. Religious political parties are banned in their constitution.

Re:This is unacceptable

[unity100]

rest of the world isnt like that. you have no idea how it is around these parts.

Re:This is unacceptable

[kevinNCSU]

>There. Is no such thing as a progressive muslim state. Qatar. i lived there for a few years. less human rights violations, crime, despotism, corruption, justice irregularities than the USA under george w. bush. the facts are hard to swallow, but there you are.

How do you figure an ABSOLUTE MONARCHY has less despotism than a country under a freely elected president (along with with a freely elected legislative branch) who peacefully gave up office when his term was over. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the actual concept of absolute power despotism requires but it generally doesn't involve being beholden to elections, term limits and an elected legislative branch but instead all power is concentrated in a single unopposed entity sort of like....Qatar? I know everyone hates bush and all, but more then 50% of the voters voted for him in 2004 and voters choosing the "wrong" choice does not despotism make. I know that fact is hard to swallow but there you are.

Re:This is unacceptable

[tnk1]

The thing is that Turkey is not a Muslim state in the way that Saudi Arabia or even Egypt is. Its a state that is mostly Muslims, but even with their somewhat more religious leaning government recently, Turkey took its cues from France and under Mustapha Kemal Ataturk made the state a secular state with its own form of laicite.

It wasn't the West that abolished the Caliphate, it was the Turkish government that did that. Other initiatives included insisting on western apparel for everyone and even developing a Turkish alphabet based on Latin characters instead of using Arabic characters. A very big change for the state that used to be the center of the Ottoman Empire, and the Islamic Caliphate.

Turkey, of course, has its own issues with human rights, and no one wants to be in a Turkish prison, but religion isn't the largest, by far. Their bigger problems are more of the ethnic variety, like with the Greeks on Cyprus and the Kurds they have in their own country. When it comes to those issues, the Turkish do have a fairly big problem on their hands.

Re:This is unacceptable

[PopCulture]

we also had decade+ long war without cause, open "legalized" torture of prisoners of war, corporate malfeasance robbing millions of their retirements and life savings, etc. etc. etc. qatar had none of that.

Re:This is unacceptable

[pjpII]

There. Is no such thing as a progressive muslim state. They are all horrendous in one form or another. Human rights, crime, despotism, corruption, justice, the works.

Jesus, where to even start with this modded "Insightful" and the other terrible comments coming off it.

First, all the issues you cite, "Human rights, crime, despotism, corruption, justice, the works" characterize the vast majority of countries outside of Western Europe (and you can include the Commonwealth in that) and North America, and don't correlate per se with states with majority Muslim populations any more than it correlates with years since the end of colonization or national GDP (and obviously probably much much less.) Most of those "more progressive" states have had quite a good amount of time to develop as nation states and many have had similar human rights problems in the past (e.g. much of Eastern Europe, Spain), while most of the Middle Eastern and North African countries are still one or two major regimes off of colonialism. So you have made a false equivalence of Muslim majority state=horrendous when there are exceptions on both sides of that equation.

Furthermore, in many of the "worst" states, the governments have been aggressively secular, since they were run by minority groups (Syria, Iraq before the fall of Saddamn) and were not particularly "Islamic" in character.

As for another poster who wonders whether they have honor killings, not so much, that tends to be in the Levant, and is a cultural rather than a religious ideal per se. Egypt does have issues with "female circumcision" (or whatever you want to call it) but again it's a cultural rather than religious practice.

None of that is pertinent to what's going on, though.

What is important is that these are incredibly courageous youth going out into the streets and facing who knows what - recent videos have shown what appears to be snipers firing on protesters, and one thing that has contributed to this movement has been videos of police brutally torturing prisoners - in the hope of changing their situation. They are putting their money where their mouths are, and are defying death to make themselves heard. This is a government that is willing to shut off an entire country's internet access, with all that entails for the economy and communication, to keep people from gather together, a basic right in many countries in the world. Coptic Christians are standing beside Muslims and asking for change - one of the main chants is "al-halaal wa-ya saliib did al-qatal wa-t-ta`dhiib" "Cross and Crescent against torture and murder."

So lets stop making meaningless and false generalizations, and asking kind of silly questions about culture, and support a people trying to win back their freedoms, something that should appeal quite highly to the Slashdot crowd.

Re:This is unacceptable

[h4rr4r]

Qatar has supported the US in these wars.
They have illegal indentured servitude. The previous Emir spent his time stealing oil profits, which indeed robbed people.

Qatar may not be Saudi Arabia, but is sure is no heaven either.

Re:This is unacceptable

[kevinNCSU]

Yes, by the very definition of despot. Despot != human rights violations. Despot != atrocities. Despot means a single ruler with absolute power. An elected official sharing power with 2 other branches of government and whom gives up their office after their term is up because they don't have the power or authority to stay in charge is by definition is not a despot no matter how much you may not like them or the choices they made.

Re:This is unacceptable

[blind monkey 3]

There. Is no such thing as a progressive muslim state. They are all horrendous in one form or another. Human rights, crime, despotism, corruption, justice, the works.

I cannot believe that to be true, the U.S. would never arm and assist despots to remain in power! Never I tell you!!

Re:This is unacceptable

[gilleain]

They haven't started any wars recently

Well, they attacked the Hittites in 1274 BC, but no recent wars, no.

Re:This is unacceptable

[markgohara]

Mubark is Muslim and the government is mostly Muslim. Please get your facts right before saying something completely ridiculous.

Re:This is unacceptable

[ElectricTurtle]

Yeah, the Yom Kippur War doesn't count. Only tens of thousand died in that. Fuck them, who cares, it would detract from my ignorant joke! Hur hur!

Re:This is unacceptable

[Anonymous Coward]

Which all occurred in a country where power ultimately vests with the population. No President could survive if the American people were significantly against them and the actions they undertook (or allowed to be undertaken). Yet the President who initiated the war was re-elected by the people, and demands for those who authorised and carried out torture came from only a few.

You aren't being oppressed by a tyranical government. You're simply experiencing the joy of a large-scale democracy: most people don't give a crap about things that don't directly affect them, and are often ill-informed about the things that do.

The things you're complaining about are happening because most of the population permits it.

Re:This is unacceptable

[TubeSteak]

That said, Egypt has a decent sized Christian minority (15%) that I think does OK which again is rare for a muslim state

The Coptic Christians are continuously persecuted in Egypt.
Most of them are very poor and work on farms or in "unclean" city jobs that Muslims refuse to do.

Then there's the New Years suicide attack that killed 23 Copts.
I personally wouldn't call poverty and the threat of suicide attacks "OK"

Re:This is unacceptable

[goodmanj]

Is he? There's a bunch of security-crazy congressmen who want to give him that power, but I haven't seen any statement by the White House asking for this power.

Re:This is unacceptable

[sunbird]

I've always considered Egypt to be on of the more progressive muslim states

Whaaaaat? Egypt is ruled by a dictator that tolerates no dissent. There has been a state of emergency there for 44 years! Let's see, where to start. In 2009, the U.S. Department of State Human Rights report had this to say:

Police, security personnel, and prison guards often tortured and abused prisoners and detainees, sometimes in cases of detentions under the Emergency Law, which authorizes incommunicado detention indefinitely, subject to a judge's ruling.

and

Police and the SSIS reportedly employed torture methods such as stripping and blindfolding victims; suspending victims by the wrists and ankles in contorted positions or from a ceiling or door frame with feet just touching the floor; beating victims with fists, whips, metal rods, or other objects; using electric shocks; dousing victims with cold water; sleep deprivation; and sexual abuse, including sodomy. There was evidence that security officials sexually assaulted some victims or threatened to rape them or their family members. Human rights groups reported that the lack of legally required written police records often effectively blocked investigations.

It just goes on and on. And, keep in mind, the U.S. DOS reports tend to be very conservative, so when this stuff ends up in a DOS report, things on the ground are much, much worse.

Learning from History

[Anonymous Coward]

We still had revolutions before the internet. What do they really think this will accomplish? If anything depriving these good people of essential services will just be like throwing petrol on a fire...

Helluva long distance call

[rudy_wayne]

Do you still have a POTS modem?

Even if you have a dial-up modem, what are you going to connect to? Call the US and connect to AOL?

Re:Helluva long distance call

[luckymutt]

Well...you can just use Skype to dial in to AOL and then you can avoid the long distance charg...oh, wait.

Re:Helluva long distance call

[imsabbel]

You might be too young to know, but modems are good for more than connecting to ISPs. You can create data connections to other persons, forming a shadow network.

Something like Fidonet with its node/point structure could be made pretty much unkillable even in such a situation unless the state would kill ALL communications.

Done in response to this video

[juicegg]

It happened immediately after this was posted: http://video.ap.org/?f=None&pid=oT7qj_wiVHTbYae3scwok4_irYjJ2R8Z (warning: disturbing)

Re:Done in response to this video

[Thing 1]

So disturbing it won't play. I saw the other one at YouTube though, at 0:13 the guy gets shot by a sniper for "picking something up". (Was it a pistol? I couldn't tell. Even if it was, was it a threat to the sniper who was hundreds of feet away?)

Re:Done in response to this video

[nedlohs]

Snipers always shoot people who aren't a threat to the sniper themselves. That's what they are for.

Re:Done in response to this video

[SharpFang]

Goddamned campers, annoying IRL too.

Internet kill switch

[MrEricSir]

Doesn't this make you want to have an internet kill switch in the US?

Re:Internet kill switch

[mosb1000]

I would be really surprised if we don't already have one.

Re:Internet kill switch

[Chaos Incarnate]

And that's stopped Congress... when?

Re:Internet kill switch

[Voyager529]

I would be really surprised if we don't already have one.

While I too don't entirely doubt that there's a means of cutting off all outbound communications from the USA (even sending orbiting satellites into 'sleep' mode would hamper communications pretty effectively), the flip side is that the government hasn't yet stated that there is, and by pulling it, they acknowledge they have it. It's a bomb they can only ever drop once, lest the entire structure of the internet change to work around it, and 'pirate isps' start popping up that are beyond their control.

Blackberry too

[cranky_chemist]

According to the LA Times, they've blocked the Blackberries, too.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2011/01/blackberry-internet-blocked-in-egypt.html

Re:If you were there...

[Facegarden]

you wouldn't be reading Slashdot, and thus wouldn't be able to answer the question of "what would you do if you were there"...

The question wasn't: "If you were there, how would you answer this question."

It was: What would you do if you were in Egypt and found that your connection had been cut off.

Me, I'd shout the packets.
-Taylor

This will help

[Overzeetop]

I'm sure that nobody will be angry or suspicious about the internet going dark. I expect nothing but butterflies and rainbows from this.

Re:This will help

[tivoKlr]

Unicorns? Can we please have at least one unicorn?

Re:This will help

[smitty97]

This will help with the IPv4 address pool problem too

"Egypt Shuts Off All land-based Internet Access"

[zill]

Satellite ISPs may be expansive, but they are the only solution in extreme cases such as this one.

More 9/11 hijackers were from Egypt than...

[ron_ivi]

More 9/11 hijackers were from Egypt than from Afghanistan and Iraq combined.

(but of course one shouldn't extrapolate too much from a sample of 1 data point)

Re:More 9/11 hijackers were from Egypt than...

[Exclamation mark!]

That's ok, the press and most scientists do it all the time

Re:More 9/11 hijackers were from Egypt than...

[dkleinsc]

Of course, by that standard the US should have invaded Saudi Arabia, not Iraq. But for some reason, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Bush family being longtime friends of both the Saudi royal family and co-investers of the Saudi-based bin Laden Group, Bush decided to pick on somebody else.

Re:Telegraphs

[thehostiles]

you might as well use tin can telephones.
You need a wire going between you and your audience, kind of a big deal

what about messages on bathroom stalls? It's the only thing I can think would at all replicate facebook

Wrote about this in 2006...

[goodmanj]

I wrote the following back in 2006. At the time, I was mostly writing about the invasion of Iraq, and the saber-rattling with Iran, but it turns out to say a lot about other places too.

==================

Suppose, for the moment, that spreading American values — by which I mean democracy, freedom of expression, and social mobility — throughout the globe is a good idea. How do we achieve that?

Let’s take a look at our enemies, and see what they fear about the U.S. Yes, our military might is kinda scary, but we’ve shown again and again that as a nation we lack the commitment (by which I mean “tyrannical jack-booted disregard for human life”) to use it effectively. What else have we got? A giant market economy focusing mostly on communication, entertainment, personal expression, and self-improvement, which the world’s dictators, religious fanatics, and thugs see as hedonistic, socially disruptive, and downright insidious.

Damn right it’s insidious. And we ought to be insidiating like crazy. The requirements for democracy and social mobility are communication, a sense of personal self-worth, and an active free-market economy. Our pop culture, and the stuff we sell, are our best tools for sneaking these values into societies, under the noses of the dictators and the zealots.

What better tools for personal expression than the cell phone and the Internet blog? What better way to get uncensored information about the world than the satellite dish? What better tools for demonstrating the joy of self-determination than the hit TV show and the Hollywood blockbuster? What better role model for oppressed women than the stars of CSI and ER? Hell, what better role model for what a police force should be than CSI? And what better motivation for starting your own business (black-market or legit), for getting a leg up, than the need to pay for all this crap?

Maybe the Cold War wasn’t won by geopolitics. Maybe it was won by black-market Levi’s blue jeans and bootleg copies of “Born in the USA” by Bruce Springsteen. Maybe our best hope for eliminating the Iranian nuclear threat isn’t B-2s dropping bombs, but FedEx cargo planes dropping cell phones and laptops. Actually, the world is doing a pretty good job in bombing Iran’s youth with pop culture; maybe all we need to do is sit back, sell more phones, and wait for their oppressive government to be swept aside, or simply ignored and rendered obsolete, by the new Coke generation.

*That’s* what they fear about us. Not that we’ll bomb them into oblivion, but that their own kids, raised on our pop culture, will vote them off the island.

================

I want to emphasize that this is about spreading American *values*, not American hegemony. The Egyptian riots are a problem for America as an empire, but if we play it right it can be a huge win for American ideals.

Re:Wrote about this in 2006...

[h4rr4r]

Oh noes! The Cultural Imperialism, they will end up being able to vote, have women that are educated and maybe even the Joe Sixpack of Egypt would be able to live a pretty decent life. Some peoples cultures suck, face it.

Re:Wrote about this in 2006...

[cpu6502]

Thomas Jefferson said the same thing almost 200 years ago. The US will be an example to the rest of the world of how a free people can prosper and enjoy life, and people around the globe will rise-up and throw-off their shackles.

The only part of the equation he was missing was the use of books, movies, and music as the enticement to make people say, "I want what the US has."

Re:Wrote about this in 2006...

[goodmanj]

> What American ideals exactly? Democracy?

Yes, and freedom of speech, equal rights for all, and government without corruption. Keep in mind these are *ideals*, which we don't always live up to. I'm well aware that my country is propping up some shitty people, and doing some shitty things with its military. My post is a call for us to stop the realpolitik and let the world see more of our liberties and less of our guns.

And yes, I do believe that our technology and our pop culture embodies our values, both noble and inane, and that the spread of that technology and culture can do good in the world. Many in the US and abroad now believe the US is entirely corrupt and entirely hypocritical. I see the hypocrisy, but I believe America's heart hasn't completely shriveled to dust.

Re:Wrote about this in 2006...

[kbahey]

I will give you the vote part. We do have voting in Egypt, but the elections are predetermined, with a combination of ballot stuffing, intimidation and exclusion.

Decent life is what we are after. So on that I agree too.

Now regarding women and education, you are wrong. Orders of magnitudes wrong. My mother, who is in her late 70s now got a higher degree back in the 50s. Two of my maternal aunts got masters degrees and then PhDs (one from the USA, the other from Japan). Two of my aunts from my paternal sides got bachelors degrees and worked too. My wife is a computer engineer.

Should I go on?

Re:Wrote about this in 2006...

[goodmanj]

I think he wasn't referring specifically to Egypt, but to a whole spectrum of states with varying degrees of lack of liberty. We all understand that Egypt is quite a ways up from Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, especially regarding women.

Re:If you were there...

[Qzukk]

If I was in Egypt, I'd be pretty pissed at them canceling my circuses and would probably go out and break stuff.

Revolution will not be televised.

[headkase]

Or in today's language: the revolution will not be tweeted.

Does anyone think it is still a good idea to give the President an "Internet Kill Switch"?
Really, those in power tend to cling to it even if their forms are outmoded for the population they rule. I think our democracies only grow stronger through a little unrest and political replacement every once in a while. What do you think?

I knew it-

[gearloos]

See what happens when you download too many copies of "The Mummy" ?

ham radio

[molo]

There's a couple options here. POTS modem is a decent choice for data, until it gets blocked. Satellite internet should work also, but could be subject to jamming. Shortwave radio to listen to international broadcasts (BBC World Service, VOA, Deutsche Welle, etc.) is a good option for receiving information and news. They could still jam broadcasters that they don't like (but hard to get all of them).

Ham radio would be the best option, as it doesn't depend on anyone else's infrastructure, and equipment can be run from 12V batteries. Many frequency bands to choose from to avoid interference or jamming. Many digital modes can be used to relay articles, some with forward error correction. Voice modes are available for those without digital interfaces. Can be short range to arrange local protests if needed (VHF/UHF), possibly with a handheld transceiver. It can be long range on the HF bands (shortwave), potentially communicating over thousands of miles and across borders.

-molo

STEP RIGHT UP FOLKS!

[denzacar]

Parent poster is handing out two, that's TWO generalizations for the price of one.
If you comment now, he'll throw in FIIIIIVE unfounded accusations of your choice - PLUS "the works". Where else are you gonna get a deal like that?

Coming up next - all Catholics are secretly pedophiles, Jews are stingy, blacks are lazy and women can't drive.

Re:STEP RIGHT UP FOLKS!

[Pharmboy]

I would agree, except you are wrong. To date, there is no moderate Muslim state. You are talking about individuals, he is talking about institutions.

This isn't a slam against Islam, it is a slam against the governments that profess to follow Islam. He is correct, there is no progressive Muslim state. You only have two kinds of Muslim states in todays world: Oppressive, and Very Oppressive. As soon as the people start speaking out in any way, they ratchet up the oppression, like every other Muslim state. The problem isn't the religion, it is using the religion as a basis for a government.

And before someone says "Turkey", they aren't a Muslim state, they are a secular state with a predominantly Muslim population.

Sorry, but you aren't nearly as funny as a few hurried moderators think you are.

Re:STEP RIGHT UP FOLKS!

[postbigbang]

Not so. To some degree, the term "Muslim state" is a misnomer. There are places like Jordan, Indonesia, Malaysia, all with varying degrees of public participation in government, and histories of suppression. Some are pretty dangerous, like Iran. Some seem secular, but are very willing to exploit indigenous peoples (Turkey and the Kurds and Armenians) as an example. But the US has done it, too, as a healthy portion of states have indigenous peoples reservations.

There are lots of Muslims in Germany, but not enough to make a change in government. In Lebanon, it's been a mixed bag for decades now. For a short time, Lebanon was the beacon of multi-religious tolerance, Christian, Muslim, Druze, etc. Now, Hezbollah is calling the shots, perhaps firing them, too.

Some Muslims argue that other ostensible Islamic factions aren't Muslim, are infidels, and treat them accordingly. It's a mess.

Re:STEP RIGHT UP FOLKS!

[blind biker]

And before someone says "Turkey", they aren't a Muslim state, they are a secular state with a predominantly Muslim population.

Turkey, right. A country where all independent media has been shut down (with "tax irregularities" excuses), Youtube was banned up until recently, Islamist demagogy is on the rise and mentioning the Armenian genocide will get you arrested.

And then there's the Catch 22

[DesScorp]

There. Is no such thing as a progressive muslim state. They are all horrendous in one form or another. Human rights, crime, despotism, corruption, justice, the works.

The reality of Egypt is that the choices are grim and grimmer; support Mubarek, and you support an oppressive regime. It may be an iron fist in a velvet glove, but the fist is still made of iron. However, if you support real democratic elections in Egypt, then you're almost certainly going to get an Iranian-style theocracy that'll never have real elections again. And that's the way the vast majority of Egyptians want it. Take away the secular despot, and you're almost guaranteed to get a country run by the Muslim Brotherhood.

Re:And then there's the Catch 22

[h4rr4r]

Only because we propped up Mubarek for so long. Had we used this opportunity to build McDonalds and raise the standard of living of the locals this would not be happening.

The Iranians will have real elections again, we just slowed down their progress.

Re:And then there's the Catch 22

[Pharmboy]

The Iranians will have real elections again, we just slowed down their progress.

That is the point that is lost of our government. At some point, the US govt. (MY govt) needs to learn when to get the fuck out of the business of trying to run other countries, and let the citizens figure it out on their own. I may take a couple of lifetimes, but our history is flooded with us interfering with other countries, and it always backfiring.

And no, I'm not an idealistic kid. I'm in my 40s, ex military, and the son of retired military. It would also be nice if our military was used for defense, instead of nation building after we destroy the country to begin with.

Re:And then there's the Catch 22

[crono_deus]

I'm an Egyptian who had the great luck of being born and raised in the States and many, many opportunities to go back home and visit.

From what I've gathered, the Muslim Brotherhood is a shadow of their former selves; they were really big in the 80s and 90s, but they've lost direction and momentum. I think that they're currently just a specter straw-man that Mubarak and the Egyptian government likes to throw up to help keep the opposition in check.

In other words, they're Egypt's Al-Qaeda, a great excuse for a dictator to keep clenching his iron fist.

I went back there last December to see my cousin get married. Most Egyptians I spoke about politics -- there are elections coming up soon and it's a topic everyone wants to talk about -- seem to want very little to do with the Brotherhood; they blame them for a good number of terrorist and don't want them anywhere near positions of power.

I don't deny that there's a risk in open elections -- certainly, you run the risk of electing kooks and crazies in every election. I just don't think the Brotherhood is as terrifying a specter as we think they are. At least, not any more. Have a little faith in the Egyptian people.

Re:And then there's the Catch 22

[graymocker]

Someone's either bought into the Mubarak propaganda, or is just trafficking in easy, poorly informed cynicism. The despots have been using the fundamentalists as bogeymen forever. It's actually one of the reasons Egypt hasn't exploded before now: most of the population does NOT want to see Islamists in power, so the whole "It's either me or the Muslim Brotherhood!" talking point was very effective at keeping Egyptians in line. The recent events have exposed the utter falsehood of this argument though. These are the facts on the ground:

(1) The MB issues an official statement a week ago instructing their members not to participate in any protests. They are happening anyway. This is a pretty clear indication that MB is not leading or even a part of the current movement.
(2) Current "leaders" of the protest movement - to the extent that the very inchoate protests have leaders, they are probably more like inspirational figureheads - are dissidents like Ayman Nour.
(3) The Egyption MB is more like the Turkish MB than the Taliban. Which is to say on the Islamist spectrum they are "moderate", and they don't question the fundamental legitimacy of the electoral process. "Sharia through the ballot box" would be their strategy. Which is still pretty awful to be sure, but it's important to be clear about what we are dealing with here. And even in it's "moderate" state, MB can only count on about 20% of the population. All of which suggests that, were Mubarak to be overthrown, the subsequent state would probably look more like Turkey than like Iran. The Islamists would be a formidable political force, and would even win elections from time to time, but they would not be in absolute control.

Would a popularly governed Egypt look exactly like we Americans want? Of course not. But I think we can all agree that Turkey, for all of its faults, is a far better model for the Muslim world than Egypt or Iran. A democratic post-Mubarak Egypt would look more like Turkey than like Iran.

Re:And then there's the Catch 22

[kbahey]

That is the what Mubarak (Egypt), Ben Ali (Tunisia), and other despots have been feeding the west for decades. "Hey! You want me to go! Are you ready to deal with wide-eyed fanatic Islamists taking over? I am better for you, so shut up on this reform stuff."

Hogwash!

Look at Turkey. The same drivel was spouted for years, and the army toppled Islamic leaning legitimate governments, such as the Erbakan government in the 1990s. The successor government, Erdogan's, has been in power since 2002 or so, and has been very moderate, well respected and focus on what is important. They did not put forward religious laws, they did not make Turkey a religious state. They did not force women to cover their head, nor did they do anything else that the fear mongers said.

Now, look at what is happened in Tunisia. It was a real grassroots uprising against a dictator, his system, corruption, ...etc. The people on the street were from every affiliation. No single party or group is taking the lead or can claim this victory is their alone.

The situation in Egypt is the same. People from every walk of life are out on the street. Go and look how they are dressed. Some wear designer clothings, have iPhones and Blackberries. Some wear traditional garb (flowing robes). A few have beards, most do not. This again is a no-affiliation grassroots movement. The government is again trying to accuse the Muslim Brotherhood of being behind it, despite the MB announcing that they will not participate ahead of January 25! Now they are rounding the MB leadership off and putting them in prison before the "Friday of Anger" tomorrow. I say: good riddance, because if the revolt succeeds without them, a) they can't take credit, and b) the West and other fear mongers cannot make it like it is a Muslim Brotherhood only victory!

I like this uprising since it has a chance of success, and the people on the street are not carrying or chanting things for this party, or against that group. They are all focused on ousting the regime. They are protesting against rising prices, police brutality, monopoly on power.

It worked in Tunisia, and should work in Egypt.

The USA, and others have to take the side of the people, for once. Joe Biden was on TV and said that Mubarak should not be referred to as a dictator! This will hurt US interests in the long run. Obama supported the people of Tunisia in one of his speeches, and should do the same for Egypt. Or at least ask Biden to shut his hole for some time.

For the USA or the West it is a shame to support someone in power for 29 years, when it is called a republic and he is called a president, all the time when lecturing on "freedom" and "democracy".

Read this View from an Egyptian for more informaiton. I wrote it earlier today.

Re:And then there's the Catch 22

[mr100percent]

You're missing my point. Bush was pretty exceptional in that he called for democratization and then gave even more support to the despots than usual. Bush announced his change in foreign policy to work for more Arab democratization, and then when Egypt arrested all the people who dared run on the ballot against Mubarak, Condileeza Rice pretty much did nothing. Uzbekistan had a large human rights scandal where the police boiled a man to death and the government opened fire on protestors. However, Uzbekistan was a necessary partner for its airbase that could supply Afghanistan, so the US pretended it didn't happen.

You're listing Tunisia as a counterexample, when I don't think it belongs there. Had these protests happened under Bush, he would probably have backed Ben Ali, "our vital partner in the war on terror." Want proof? Bush supported Musharraf to the hilt until the very end, which seriously damaged the US image in the country. (Pakistanis loved the US before Bush, as opinion polls show) When the pro-democracy forces took over again, they were angry that the US had been blatantly blocking democracy and rule of law in their country.

Obama did a lot of good, including in recent coup places like Honduras. Here's hoping he can undo the rest of the damage.

Re:And then there's the Catch 22

[boxwood]

Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner?

Democracy just isn't just about voting its about human rights too. Otherwise you can simply intimidate a large percentage of the population, kill all members of opposition parties and get elected. Is that still democracy? Well technically, a party that uses these tactics got the most votes, so I guess anything they want to do is all good. Right?

What if the entire media is controlled by allies of the government in power. The news says only bad things about the opposition and only good things about the government. They don't report that the government shut down all media that criticised them.

Too many people have lived all their lives in the developed world and have never seen how democracy works (or doesn't work) in the developing world. You can have all the elections you want but that doesn't mean that people will get the government they want.

Re:If you were there...

[exomondo]

you wouldn't be reading Slashdot, and thus wouldn't be able to answer the question of "what would you do if you were there"...

"what would you do if you were there."

You see it's the 'if' that makes the assumption that you are *not* there - which obviously can be made given that if you were there you likely wouldn't be reading this - therefore making this a hypothetical question.

Re:The reason they had to do that...

[artor3]

This is why we need a real media, instead of following the current trend of bloggers covering news while the established media cover entertainment and punditry. Because without real reporters over there, there's no way to figure out what happened during a blackout. Local bloggers can be cut off, and when the lights come back on, who's to say what happened? Whereas disappearing a reporter for the NY Times would just invite more scrutiny.

Of course, it's all contingent on the established media putting aside their profit margins for a moment. Reporters are expensive, and don't get the ratings that star watches and manufactured controversy pull in.

Anonymous Has Stepped In

[Nethemas the Great]

video news guidance

Well...

[denzacar]

They could patch into a Gibson, use that uplink to tunnel into the global GPS satellite network and then beam the (enhanced) signal down into the internet and thus successfully hack the plant.

United States likes dictators...

[emm-tee]

The United States likes dictators if they serve it's interests.

Re:United States likes dictators...

[dkleinsc]

We do like some of them, such as the Shah of Iran, Augusto Pinochet, and Manuel Noriega. In fact, during the Cold War we liked those guys a lot more than democratically elected leaders who were showing liberal tendencies due to a perceived fear that they might support the Commies.

And by "we" I mostly mean the CIA, who typically did this stuff without the knowledge of We The People.

This is fantastic news.

[Darth_brooks]

I love hearing this. In fact, I hope more countries undergoing political unrest opt to shut off 'net access. Specifically I'm hoping for similar occurrences in places like Syria, Pakistan. Go ahead and try getting your internet kill switch bill passed then ya jackasses. Every political talking head will blaze up a nice firestorm while the chickenshits dive for cover.

I just wish there was a way to help.

Re:This is fantastic news.

[goodmanj]

Can you find a quote in which Obama asked for one? His name appears in all the headlines, but I can't find a White House statement on the matter. As far as I can tell, this is security-crazed congressmen trying to give him something he didn't ask for.

Re:CQ?

[v1]

It doesn't work like in the movies. Triangulating a transmitter takes time, coordination, and experience. (I consider myself one of the better foxhunters in my state) And if the person doesn't want to be found, they can make it extremely difficult to pin down.

Both german-controlled france and russia took the same novel approach trying to find spies transmitting in WW2... they'd cut power to parts of the city a chunk at a time until the signal went off the air, then tear apart that area. Shows just how difficult it can be. Nowadays though with dopplars and haddock arrays they don't have to shut down the grids, but finding the actual transmitter remains very difficult. (I've been foxhunting for just about 20 yrs)

Re:Who is responsible?

[v1]

We should find out which companies bowed before the dictators. Looks like Vodaphoe is one of them.

When a truckload of soldiers show up at your NOC with automatic weapons and politely ask you to pull the plug, you do

You can't blame the ISPs for this. In cases like this the soldiers usually have orders to turn their weapons on the racks if the ISP refuses to cooperate. One way or another, you will cooperate.

Sorry... I forgot Americans!

[denzacar]

All Americans are fat and stupid. There. Can I please have my post modded up again now?
Or do I have to make a stupid generalization about someone else? Like Chinese? Brits? Zie Germans?

COME ON!
I too want to be modded +5 Insightful for being a generalizing asshole who pigeonholes millions of people and their cultures into degrading *caricatures of themselves.

 
 
 
*caricatures are like an exaggerated cartoon of someone, where he looks funny... and then we laugh at him cause he is funny looking.

Egpyt is not entirely off line

[Animats]

There are major outages, but the entire country of Egypt is not off line. Cairo is hard to reach, but Alexandria seems to be up via some routes. Delay on the last link to the Alexandria gateway is about 70ms.

Re:Egpyt is not entirely off line

[spasm]

According to renesys, all but one of the ISPs are offline - the one which carries the country's stock exchange: http://www.renesys.com/blog/2011/01/egypt-leaves-the-internet.shtml

Hack the PLANET...

[denzacar]

Sorry... an 'e' got away from me.

You don't need all that to hack a plant. You can hack a plant simply by hitting it repeatedly with an axe.

turkey isnt muslim

[unity100]

its just that anyone who was born from a muslim parent (either) was registered as muslim, regardless of what their parents had said. hence, 99% of the population ended up as muslim even if they were atheists or didnt care for anything. 20% of population goes from there. a majority of population doesnt care for religion much, it is only remembered when someone dies or born, and there goes another 30%. a 30-40% of the population follow islam, but not as radical as arabs. rest 10-20% are probably worse than arabs radicalism.

had islam been as strong here as arab countries, there would be no difference. even in this case there are a lot of backward practices. and attempts to islamicize the country.

Bad move, Egypt!

[Locke2005]

Before, you would have had SOME young Egyptians quietly staying at home and wanking off... now you're going to have ALL of them out in the streets!

BGPMon Analysis

[mbone]

There is a quick look BGP level analysis available from BGPMon. Except for Noor Data Networks, the number of announced address blocks is way down. This means that most Egyptian IP addresses are now not reachable from the rest of the world.

Here is BGPMon on the dating of the outage :

At this point egypt.gov.eg is offline. This network, 81.21.104.0/24 was withdrawn at January 27th at 22:28 UTC . Another example is www.ahram.org.eg an Egyptian news paper. This network 196.219.246.0/24, became unreachable at the exact same time, January 27th at 22:28 UTC.

I think that it is safe to assume that this outage is related to the big protests planned for tomorrow.

Re:The "Internet kill switch"?

[goodmanj]

I agree that this makes the "Internet kill switch" look even more jackbooted, but let's be clear on the politics here:

While every headline on this issue has called it "Obama's Internet Kill Switch", the current legislation that would enact it was proposed by republican senator Susan Collins and security-crazy independent Joe Lieberman. There have been other proposals like it by both parties, but I have not been able to find a single statement by Obama or the White House in favor of this idea.

As far as I can tell, this is a power Congress is trying to give the president, not one he's demanding for himself.

What exactly IS a Muslim state then?

[denzacar]

One where there are many Muslims?
Well, is a Germany a Muslim state? Plenty of Turkish Muslims there? How 'bout France with all them Algerians?
Or all those Muslims don't really count, cause they are not TRUE Muslims?

Or are you talking about countries run by sharia law?
Egypt is a "semi-presidential republic" where religious parties are illegal.

Or let's turn that around... Which western countries (excluding Vatican) are Christian? And please, specify which denomination.
Or how about simply - is America Catholic, Protestant or Mormon? Come on... we all know that all that secular bullshit is just for show.
Come on... Who's their Cloud Daddy?

Re:What exactly IS a Muslim state then?

[a whoabot]

You: "Or are you talking about countries run by sharia law?"

Why not?
An Overview of the Egyptian Legal System and Legal Research by Dr. Mohamed S. Abdel Wahab:

"The Egyptian legal system is built on the combination of Islamic (Shariah) law and Napoleonic Code, which was first introduced during Napoleon Bonaparteâ(TM)s occupation of Egypt and the subsequent education and training of Egyptian jurists in France. ...
According to the 1980 amendment of the Constitution, Islamic Law (Sharia) became the principal source of legislative rules. Such wording simply implies that any new law that is being enacted or considered for enactment should not be in contravention of any prevailing principles of Islamic Law (Sharia). ...
Prior to the 1980 amendment, Islamic Law (Sharia) was merely a source, amongst other sources, for legislative rules."

So what was your point?

Re:A lot of egyptian sites down too

[jordan314]

Did you know that there's a difference between turning off internet access for just consumers and turning off access to all servers including official government and university sites like those that I linked to?

What? No calls for anyone to be shot?

[denzacar]

If I say I'm "pro-left" do I at least get a token "you deserve what you should get"?
Granted... I'm not a Democrat Congresswoman OR an nine-year-old girl but still... show me some proper hate.

Falsely accusing one side of violence, as the above mentioned did throughout 2010 election campaign, despite most of the actual incidents of violence coming from the left, is a 'veiled' invitation to respond in kind. How do you expect more extreme elements on the left to respond when they are constantly being told that about violent fascist and racist right-wingers are taking over in the form of Tea Party (which in reality is a peaceful and law-abiding movement if there ever was one). That is the impression one gets when listening to them and it is a form of incitement to violence.

I keep a copy of this post you made for whenever you come trolling by. It never gets old.

From an Egyptian long time member

[kbahey]

Here is what I wrote earlier today Views from an Egyptian.

Mod it up if you think it is informative.

Re:Well Iraq was progressive...

[LordLucless]

"Middle Eastern" and "Muslim" are not interchangeable. Iraq was not a Muslim nation - it's government was entirely secular. Then again, if you think that *Israel* is a Muslim state, you really shouldn't even be joining the conversation.

Logic is logical

[fuzznutz]

Therein lies the rub. In order to make gun control work, the government must not only outlaw ALL guns for the unwashed masses, it must also confiscate ALL guns from those same unwashed masses. This is exactly the fear presented by anti-gun control activists. The GP's logic is quite sound. Gun control cannot work in the half assed manner that proponents seem to always encourage. It is an all or nothing proposition.

And as you pointed out, total control can only reduce the availability. It's a cultural thing. Despite the most well-intentioned rants by gun control activists, you cannot change culture by fiat.

On the upside

[Chuck Chunder]

Every Egyptian has been spared the possibility of reading that moronic post.

Re:If you were there...

[bored]

Packet radio.

Re:CQ?

[Khyber]

"And if the person doesn't want to be found, they can make it extremely difficult to pin down."

Not any longer. You start with a sensitive radio that picks up the signal from afar, and you switch to far less sensitive devices until even a REALLY strong signal can't be picked up/won't register until you're on top of it. Several layers of shielding around your detection device can help with this.

That's how I've been tracking down various stray signals that occasionally make it into my house - baby monitors, over-powered wireless routers (modified past allowable TX spec,) unencrypted wireless, non-licensed GMRS operators, etc.

Makes for good practice in observing radio traffic and separating out the layers.

Re:Just remember this

[Rob Riggs]

You could have just said 'When next President wants an "Internet Kill Switch"' but you had to make it about your political views and not the larger, more important issue. This is a real problem with discourse in the U.S. these days. It is about "which side you are on" and not the discussion of the big issues. I think most citizens agree that an "Internet Kill Switch" is a very bad idea. But our problems keep getting worse because we are constantly distracted by political nonsense and polarizing language and cannot focus on the issue at hand. Let's focus on what's important.

Free Speech or Stone Age

[kozubik]

The Egyptian authorities have the ability to shut down free speech in 2011, but turning off the Internet is not enough - they must completely halt modern commerce.

Since they are not, as far as I can imagine, performing mass jamming of the 2.4ghz spectrum, anyone with a laptop and "wi-fi" connectivity has everything they need to conduct insurrection. This concept is known as "Free Speech or Stone Age":

http://blog.kozubik.com/john_kozubik/2009/06/free-speech-or-stone-age.html

Unless you remove the general purpose tools of modern commerce, filtering (or even disabling) the Internet will not stop speech.

Re:Well Iraq was progressive...

[DesScorp]

until we bombed them into the stone age.

Really? Saddam gave women equal legal status, sure, but "legal status" under Saddam meant whatever Saddam's mood on a given day was. If Saddam's sons felt like raping your daughters... which seemed to be their favorite hobby... then that was the law. If that's your idea of progress, you can keep it.

I think what you're going for is that Iraq under Saddam was secular, rather than just progressive. Secular doesn't necessarily equal progress. The Soviet Union , after all, had universal education, health care, and near-equal incomes. And everyone was near-equal miserable. Slaves usually are.

Re:CQ?

[dondelelcaro]

Not any longer.

There are tons of ways, from repeaters to directional antennas to frequency hopping to intermittent transmitting to various spread spectrum techniques to highly mobile transmitters to variable power output transmitters. It becomes even easier if you are willing to produce harmful interference on bands that are not supposed to be used for amateur communications and intersperse your communications in pre-existing radio frequencies.

It still may be possible for a determined adversary to track down an individual doing this, but it becomes very difficult (and also makes it much easier for the individual broadcasting to know that they are being tracked down.)

Issue overrated

[muckracer]

For everybody flippin' out, do remember, that the eastern block country revolutions and subsequent sweep into oblivion of their governments happened largely without any use of technology. Most people on the streets had no computer, no internet, no sms, no cell phones, no landlines etc.. All they had was themselves and the determination to no longer tolerate the bullshit.
Does technology help? Well, it can help the protesters cause. Organizing themselves, getting info out etc.. BUT, I'd wager to say, with the given possibilities over surveillance electronic communication probably hurts people more than does them good, as it provides the government forces with absolutely detailed intelligence in real-time. So turning off all that stuff might actually benefit the protesters more and be a shot in their own foot for the government.

Renesys data on the Egypt IPSs BGP withdrawal

[mork]

Renesys reports that the big four ISPs in Egypt have withdrawn approximately 3,500 individual BGP routes, leaving no valid paths by which to reach the rest of the world. One of the very few exceptions to this block has been Noor Group.

http://www.renesys.com/blog/2011/01/egypt-leaves-the-internet.shtml