Android Tablets Were Born Too Soon

adeelarshad82 writes "When you look at the Apple iPad's sales figures, it's not hard to see why every technology company on the planet is jumping on the tablet bandwagon, a lot of which are Android tablets. Unfortunately though, some of these Android tablets were born way too early. They are haunted with a series of problems including flimsy hardware, low-quality resistive touch screens, serious display resolution issues, and old Android versions with limited or non-existent access to apps. Even the Samsung Galaxy Tab came well before its time. Even though it's fast, well-designed, and comes with a decent Android implementation, its functionality is limited to that of an Android smartphone. So here's to hoping that Honeycomb's functionality make up for the lost ground."

Comments

Thanks!

[Anonymous Coward]

For the opinion adeelarshad82, we'll get back to you on that one.

Re:Thanks!

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously. It reads like an Apple fag whine.

1) Tablets are NOT being adopted by many tech companies because they are worthless for doing actual work on.
2) Most Android based tablets kick the crap out of the iPad, hardware and software-wise.
3) Resistive touchscreens are superior to capacitive touchscreens in many ways.
4) Calling the Samsung Galaxy Tab a glorified Android smartphone when the iPad is just a glorified iPhone is ridiculous and hypocritical

Even trying to watch a film on the iPad is painful, what with its obsolete 4:3 aspect screen. adeelarshad82, go back to using your iPad for the only thing it's good for, posting what you had for breakfast on Twiitter.

Re:Thanks!

[Anonymous Coward]

Good troll bait. Here's a tip for you! Industries that actually use data for work (oil rig data collection, flight logging and planning, sales of all sorts, and data aquistion are all going crazy for a computer that just works and gets out of the way. Is that android? Could be. It IS the iPad, no doubt.

Re:Thanks!

[DrXym]

1) Tablets are NOT being adopted by many tech companies because they are worthless for doing actual work on.

Tablets are largely consumption devices. Slapping a virtual keyboard, or even a keyboard stand doesn't make them drop in replacement for PCs.

However I fully expect that when Microsoft produce a tablet that it *could* be a drop in replacement. We know they're porting Windows to ARM. It's not hard to envisage they device a tablet shell for conventional tablet like stuff, but plug the device into a dock and suddenly you get a Windows desktop. It could be an incredibly powerful arrangement. Biggest fly in the ointment is ARM != x86 and how do they port / emulate all those x86 apps. That's a problem I have seen an adequate answer to.

2) Most Android based tablets kick the crap out of the iPad, hardware and software-wise.

Hmm not yet. I like android a lot but the first wave of devices were either a) crappo chinese knockoffs, b) expensive close but no cigar efforts like the Tab. I think the closest IMO was the Archos 101 which is about 3/5 the cost of the iPad but offers pretty similar functionality. On the software side, Android is fine but it's clear it will take Android 3.0 to bring it up to snuff. Possibly a 3.1.

3) Resistive touchscreens are superior to capacitive touchscreens in many ways.

I agree they are in some ways. I laugh when I hear puff pieces about of schools or hospitals using an iPad. How exactly do they scribble notes on their tablets? The answer is they can't because they're capacitive. A resistive screen would allow a user to tap or write with a stylus. You can buy wands for capacitive screens but you have to fastidiously avoid touching any other part of the screen while you write.

If handwriting is a requirement the screen has to be resistive. I realise of course for general use that resistive leaves something to be desired.

4) Calling the Samsung Galaxy Tab a glorified Android smartphone when the iPad is just a glorified iPhone is ridiculous and hypocritical

I think it's worse with the Tab because Samsung implemented a bunch of crap like GPS, compass, rear facing camera, etc. merely to keep the Android CDD happy. They literally had to make it a giant phone or they couldn't ship with the Android marketplace app or Google apps. I hope Android 3.0 has a CDD that allows tablets a lot more leeway to choose what features they include.

There is no reason that a decent tablet shouldn't retail for half of what an iPad costs and in part that could be achieved by jettisoning superfluous or redundant hardware.

Re:Thanks!

[Anonymous Coward]

Reality countered with opinion. Hint: You are not Anonymous so don't talk like you are.

Re:Thanks!

[Stooshie]

It's not even 4:3 (or 16:9) it's some weird proprietary format that neither 4:3 nor 16:9 fit into correctly!

Re:Thanks!

[isopropanol]

1) Tablets are NOT being adopted by many tech companies because they are worthless for doing actual work on.

I can see a lot of applications - basically anything that can't be tied to a desk...

Re:Thanks!

[Wild_dog!]

----I laugh when I hear puff pieces about of schools or hospitals using an iPad. How exactly do they scribble notes on their tablets?
---------
I'm not sure that is how they will be useful as giant magnadoodles. Adding the ability to scribble could enhance things and certainly creative apps would be made to make use of the feature set, but in the instance of hospitals, prescribing medicine or updating peoples charts is less prone to errors if it can be done without the doctor "scribble".

Re:Thanks!

[AdrianKemp]

From apple.ca tech specs for the iPad

1024-by-768-pixel resolution at 132 pixels per inch (ppi)

I assure you that 1024x768 is 4:3. That said, it isn't 16:9 because 16:9 works great as a monitor and works terribly when you're trying to hold it.

Re:Thanks!

[bonch]

That you got modded up "Insightful" is ridiculous Absolutely nothing in your post is backed by any evidence, and some of your points don't even make sense logically. If most Android tablets "kick the crap out of the iPad, hardware and software-wise," why is the iPad the #1 tablet? Let me guess--people are just sheep, right? And you're one of the few enlightened ones? Calling the iPad a glorified iPhone is stupid when the iPad's interface is redesigned for the larger screen. The Galaxy Tab really is just a scaled up Android phone.

Once again, you're an anonymous Android supporter posting in an Android article--I'd like to note how many anonymous supporters mysteriously show up in every Android or iOS article. I'm sure there will be a ton in this article as well. Android has become like a religion for bitter Apple-haters, a reason to convince yourself that you're smarter than other people. The only reason Android smartphones outsell iPhones is because they're on multiple carriers while iPhone is only on one--and that's changing later this month. Without carriers to force them onto people, Android tablets have fallen flat on their face. People simply prefer iOS. The interface is light years ahead, and the OS itself is more responsive and smooth. It's a technically and aesthetically superior experience.

Best of all, it's not controlled by carriers and doesn't have a bunch of unremovable junkware and malware.

Re:Thanks!

[s73v3r]

3) Resistive touchscreens are superior to capacitive touchscreens in many ways.

Except when it comes to actual user experience. People don't like resistive touch screens, because you have to actually push down on them, and many of the android tablets that are using resistive touch screens are using the uber cheap ones that don't work worth shit without a stylus. Most people don't want to use styluses, except for graphic designers. And they'd probably be using a Wacom tablet on a real computer.

Re:Thanks!

[CharlyFoxtrot]

However I fully expect that when Microsoft produce a tablet that it *could* be a drop in replacement. We know they're porting Windows to ARM. It's not hard to envisage they device a tablet shell for conventional tablet like stuff, but plug the device into a dock and suddenly you get a Windows desktop. It could be an incredibly powerful arrangement. Biggest fly in the ointment is ARM != x86 and how do they port / emulate all those x86 apps. That's a problem I have seen an adequate answer to.

As long as they're copying Apple they could use QuickTransit, like Apple did to ease the PowerPC to Intel transition.

I agree they are in some ways. I laugh when I hear puff pieces about of schools or hospitals using an iPad. How exactly do they scribble notes on their tablets? The answer is they can't because they're capacitive. A resistive screen would allow a user to tap or write with a stylus. You can buy wands for capacitive screens but you have to fastidiously avoid touching any other part of the screen while you write.

No, because they are multi-touch touching another part of the screen doesn't interfere with the writing, iOS is smart enough to do things like that by default (even if it wasn't you could just pull the touch that's look like writing of the array programmatically dropping what look like accidental touches.) The iPad has other strong points that makes it good for hospitals: it is lightweight, portable, strong developer base, relatively easy to develop custom applications for, network connected and above all has a battery that lasts an entire shift worth of use.

There is no reason that a decent tablet shouldn't retail for half of what an iPad costs and in part that could be achieved by jettisoning superfluous or redundant hardware.

Bullshit. You can't bring down cost by ordering a small run of custom hardware even if it is "simpler" (what does a GPS chip really cost wholesale.) Some low cost Taiwanese company would've done it by now if that were true. No one can touch Apple on price because A: they've got the market cornered on some components and B: due to their success they can order in quantities other companies can only dream of (at the moment?).

Re:Thanks!

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Good enough for mobile use, it's a multi-purpose device not a dedicated movie-player. When you seriously want to watch your movie you can use Airplay to stream it to your AppleTV directly from your iPad (or your computer.)

Re:Thanks!

[compro01]

The resolution is 4:3 (1.33:1), but the physical size is not. It's 9.56" by 7.47", which is 1.28:1, or just about the same ratio as letter-size paper (1.29:1)

Re:Thanks!

[compro01]

Bah, I am an idiot. Right after I submit, I discover the dimensions I was using are the the entire device, not the screen. Ignore my previous post.

Re:Thanks!

[DrXym]

No, because they are multi-touch touching another part of the screen doesn't interfere with the writing, iOS is smart enough to do things like that by default (even if it wasn't you could just pull the touch that's look like writing of the array programmatically dropping what look like accidental touches.) The iPad has other strong points that makes it good for hospitals: it is lightweight, portable, strong developer base, relatively easy to develop custom applications for, network connected and above all has a battery that lasts an entire shift worth of use.

Writing in a capacitive screen is a disaster. You need a wand like device and software which filters out extraneous false inputs like a person holding the device, accidentally brushing the screen or whatever. I don't believe for a second that the solution even with filtering would be tolderable.

As for the iPad's other attributes I'd say they're debateable. Organisations like serviceable machines which is why devices like Thinkpads are so popular. The iPad is anything but serviceable - if you break it (e.g. by letting it fall off a hospital bed) you throw it away and buy a new one.

Bullshit. You can't bring down cost by ordering a small run of custom hardware even if it is "simpler" (what does a GPS chip really cost wholesale.) Some low cost Taiwanese company would've done it by now if that were true. No one can touch Apple on price because A: they've got the market cornered on some components and B: due to their success they can order in quantities other companies can only dream of (at the moment?).

Yes and some low cost Chinese companies have already done it. You can buy Android tablets for $100 on ebay. Awful tablets but tablets nonetheless. There is ample opportunity for a functional tablets in the $200-300 range.

GPS, compass, accelerometers, rear facing camera, aluminium case, 16Gb are not critical to a tablet which is going to be used for some casual browsing, movies and email. The Archos 101 is already out and favourably reviewed. It demonstrates a perfectly functional tablet with capacitive 10" screen doesn't have to cost anything close to an iPad. Next year will see many such tablets, running Android 3.0 too.

Re:Thanks!

[John Betonschaar]

Agreed. And I do have some evidence to back up why you're right. On my 11 hour flight yesterday the plane was crowded with people using their iPads, and they all seemed extremely satisfied with them. The couple in the isle next to me had one each and have been watching movies on it almost the entire freaking flight, all on a single charge, and surprise, without hearing a single complaint about how the 4:3 aspect ratio was bothering them or whatver. People were playing games on them, having fun, showing off stuff and just enjoying it in general. Somehow I don't have the impression they would have been happier with a Galaxy Tab or some other nerdy Android device with no tablet-optimized stuff whatsoever available for it.

Re:Thanks!

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Writing in a capacitive screen is a disaster. You need a wand like device and software which filters out extraneous false inputs like a person holding the device, accidentally brushing the screen or whatever. I don't believe for a second that the solution even with filtering would be tolderable.

Like I said iOS is pretty good at detecting false imputs all by itself and it's not at all hard to filter out touches: all touches go into an array with length, start point, etc. as attributes that help the developer easily weed out "odd" touches. But you're obviously not going to take my word for it, take a look at some videos of people writing with their fingers or a stylus. Besides, for the kind of short note taking on the go you do with a tablet the virtual keyboard or even the above finger-style input is perfectly adequate.

Re:Thanks!

[DrXym]

I'm aware of the wand / stylus and of software workarounds. I'm also aware that no amount of software is going to tell the difference between me accidentally brushing my hand and the tip of a wand. It will be very easy to confuse the software where it will ignore legitimate input or misinterpret inadvertant input.

My point also coincides with this article that more or less demonstrates my point. The problem is clearly hard enough that Apple have filed a patent for a solution. Just look at the solution! A weird ass pen with a jointed floaty disk on one end and accelerometers. Plus a bunch of software.

All to make a pen which will presumably cost $$$ and all to approximate what a resistive screen would offer out of the box. That was the point I was making. Resistive is sometimes better where note taking is a critical requirement of a device. I'd add that there are hybrid screens that could offer resistive style input with capacitive for light touch so it's not necessarily either / or.

Re:Thanks!

[Anonymous Coward]

That you got modded up "Insightful" is ridiculous Absolutely nothing in your post is backed by any evidence, and some of your points don't even make sense logically. If most Android tablets "kick the crap out of the iPad, hardware and software-wise," why is the iPad the #1 tablet?

Going by that logic, Windows must be vastly superior to all other desktop operating systems.

Calling the iPad a glorified iPhone is stupid when the iPad's interface is redesigned for the larger screen.

Yeah, spacing out those icons really must have taken some doing.

Android has become like a religion for bitter Apple-haters, a reason to convince yourself that you're smarter than other people.

Not paying exorbitant amounts of money for inferior hardware and a locked down OS is proof enough that non-Apple users are smarter.

People simply prefer iOS.

I guess that's why Android tablets are quickly taking the market. By year's end, expect at least 50% of the market to be using Android based tablets. By 2013, iPad will be a fading memory. Apple really doesn't learn anything from past mistakes. Most people want inexpensive devices that do what they need, that's Android.

Re:Thanks!

[Anonymous Coward]

I know a lot of people who like resistive screens because you have to push down on them. It means that false presses aren't registered easily, you get tactile feedback, you can press an area multiple times without having to completely lift your finger from the surface (think turning pages or skipping tracks), you can use them with gloves on, you can use them with any kind of stylus/pointy implement, they are much more accurate than capacitive (single pixel resolution accuracy vs capacitive multiple pixel resolution), they are pressure sensitive, they are more durable and they are less expensive to produce.

Re:Thanks!

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Apple takes out a LOT of patents each year, the vast majority of them will never be used or are just there to cover their ass, including I might add something very much like what you were suggesting a couple posts up. What you are linking to seems to be some sort of specialty artists' pen like the ones Wacom makes rather than a general purpose stylus. It makes sense for Apple to take out some patents in case they ever want to move into that market with the iPad.

Have you actually used an iPad ? I use one daily and accidental touches are so rare I cannot offhand think of a single instance (though I'm sure there must have been.) You sound a lot like how I thought about touch screens back when I used a Palm. Those apps aren't "workarounds" they are first class applications made by developers using the standard iOS api. I probably sound like a fanboy but I find it hard to overstate just how well iOS works.

Re:Thanks!

[Stooshie]

It's not really about the pixel dimensions, but whatever the reason, neither 4:3 movies nor 16:9 movies fit the screen properly.

Re:Thanks!

[Moofie]

Yeah, because 1024x768 screens are completely unheard of in the computer industry. Where do they come up with these ridiculous numbers?

Re:Thanks!

[Stooshie]

1024x768 should be equivalent to a 4:3 screen ratio, but standard 4:3 videos don't fit the screen either. So I don't think it can really be 1024x768. Or they use pixels that aren't the standard pixel ratio, which is usually 1:1. It is not uncommon for manufacturers to do that. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_aspect_ratio)

What's interesting about Android

[mcrbids]

Unlike the iPhone / proprietary equivalents, it will mostly be a non-issue to upgrade older hardware to the new stuff. Thus we'll see android acting as an insurance against near future obsolescence!!

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

you're kidding right? Have you been hearing all the issues early adopters have been having with getting their Android devices updated? I'm no iToy supporter by any means, but Android is much more fragmented than iOS, both in hardware and software.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Cinder6]

You can upgrade older iOS devices, though, up to a point. Even the iPhone 3G can get iOS4, albeit without multitasking.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[grrrgrrr]

Are you joking? Look at the situation of android phones vs iphones. Iphones are getting updates the android phones are not doing very well in that regard.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[beelsebob]

Pardon? Are you serious?

It's hard to name android devices that even got the bump from 1.6 to 2.0, hell, 90% of them don't even get *minor* OS version updates from the one they started on, there are still plenty of 1.5/2.0/2.1 devices out there for exactly that reason.

Compare this against iOS devices that are guarenteed to get 2 major OS updates and all minor ones for those major versions. Sure, some functionality is disabled in the newer OSes, but that's typically because the older hardware can't deal with it (e.g. old 3G iPhones with a measly 128MB of RAM and multitasking).

Basically, you're comparing being at the mercy of {motarola | samsung | ...} to get OS updates (hahahahaha), against a guarentee written into the EULA that you'll get upgrades. I know which I consider to be the non-issue of those two ;).

Re:What's interesting about Android

[ghrom]

Mod this +5 Funny! Quick!

Re:What's interesting about Android

[zlogic]

Yeah, and that's the reason why manufacturers stop updating firmware less than a year after a phone is announced.
Yes, you can install custom firmware like Cyanogen, but the process is complex and the custom firmware often contains nasty bugs (e.g. a buggy battery monitor draining the battery in older Cyanogen versions)

Re:What's interesting about Android

[halowolf]

That doesn't sound like a modern, built in obsolescence, business model where they would rather have you buy new than upgrade....

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

Not so much, given the latest statistics given by Google.
Android below 2.1 are just a mere 10% of the devices in use as of today.
http://developer.android.com/resources/dashboard/platform-versions.html

But it's true that the vendor (and carrier) lock that prevent upgrade is frustrating.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[obarthelemy]

Same as you can upgrade Android smartphones ? oh, wait...

Re:What's interesting about Android

[bemymonkey]

Are you joking? Don't get me wrong, I love Android and custom ROMs, precisely because with the right hardware I can enjoy all the newest features of Android for a long time to come, but pretending the situation with official updates is anything other than abysmal is, well, insane.

Froyo: HTC has updated most of their devices. Samsung is halfheartedly lagging behind, and Motorola, well, they've updated like one device (the original Droid), while deliberately sabotaging any chance other handsets had at home-cooked updates by locking up their bootloaders.

Gingerbread: Nothing to see here, folks. Even the Nexus One hasn't been upgraded yet, and I'm guessing most Nexus One owners are pretty pissed about that, what with having expected to buy a device that would be a supported Android dev phone for a few years (let's say two).

Sure, I'm enjoying Gingerbread (CyanogenMod 7 nightly builds) on my Desire right now, and I'm sure Honeycomb will be along soon, but Joe Sixpack is up shit creek... and outdated smartphones don't make great paddles.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Ice Tiger]

Now if only the phone manufacturers would let you actually upgrade instead of making you buy a newer model to get your phone upgraded to the latest OS.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[mjwx]

Pardon? Are you serious? It's hard to name android devices that even got the bump from 1.6 to 2.0,

I've got 2.2 on my HTC Dream, the first Android phone to be released. In my nation it was released with Android 1.1. Everything past 1.6 is a community ROM but I've still got 2.2.

When Apple decided not to release new functionality for the older Iphones and Ipads, what other choice do you have but to buy a new one to get that functionality. Not like you can run unsigned code on an Ipad.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[HateBreeder]

How can you compare 1 type of handset (the iPhone) with about a THOUSAND different handsets from different manufacturers running Android?

If anything, you should compare the iPhone to a specific brand or manufacturer for instance, the HTC Nexus One - which not only has been getting ALL the android updates officially, but also has INCREDIBLE community support and car run a host of custom ROMs!

It's sad that misinformation has to be the key tactic to make apple look good.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Telvin_3d]

Wow, good thing you went with the open platform otherwise you might have had to compile your own hacked third party OS update together when the manufacturer bailed on you. Just think of the hours you could have not spent searching through forums and triple checking instructions. Good thing you didn't fall into Apple's trap. /sarcasm

Re:What's interesting about Android

[thsths]

> Not so much, given the latest statistics given by Google.

The statistics are flawed, and Google knows that. The statistics are from app store, and obviously you access the app store when you have a new phone, because there are only the standard apps on it. Once you have found your set of apps, you are a lot less likely to visit the app store. So the statistics represent new phone rather than phones in use.

And even then I have my doubts, because there are still quite a few popular phones out there being sold with Android 2.1.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[dafing]

"upgrade older hardware"?,

You mean you want to swap out the CPU package? Good luck! :-)

Perhaps you meant updating the OS?

HA! Thats an even bigger laugh, look at the MASSIVE problems seemingly ALL non Nexus One/S devices seem to have with updates, barely ANY handsets seem to be automatically update-able, the hour the new OS comes out. Meanwhile, with iOS, the update comes out, you hear about it through Engadget, Gizmodo etc, you open iTunes on your computer and it will automatically ask if you want to update once you connect your device via USB.

True, it might be nicer being able to do it all over wifi...3G if you were insane and on an unlimited data plan... but I'd rather plug in the cable and have it in 10 minutes (being realistic, to install etc) than wait FOREVER for updates that never come, and from MAJOR companies too, Samsung, Sony, Motorola...

I dont quite buy into this "fragmented" thing, sure its true, but its not THAT bad, but the update releases for Android devices is just HORRIBLE. Its a joke! And its from the "open" platform too.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Sulphur]

Unlike the iPhone / proprietary equivalents, it will mostly be a non-issue to upgrade older hardware to the new stuff. Thus we'll see android acting as an insurance against near future obsolescence!!

No Llinux por Mi, Ann Droid.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[angularbanjo]

Traditional handset manufacturers have that old mindset that it's better for them if they keep you in the "shiny new handset and contract term" cycle, because that's how they make money and compete with each other. Combined with the idea that the destiny of the OS isnt directly in their hands from a trade competition point of view, so matching device R&D up with whatever Google do next is probably no mean feat. Given the strides taken in the OS in terms of performance requirements, manufacturers surely would have had to invest in a handset platform with such latent capabilities that the costs, if planning hardware takes at least a year or two, would have had too much risk associated with them within their traditional product development cycles. So one result has been that some manufacturers are guilty of squeezing old Android versions on stuff out of the parts bin, and if you buy that you're stuck.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[dafing]

What the heck are you on about?

When a new computer update comes out, you get it day one, within the hour, surely? You dont have to wait for your internet provider to decide to give it to you, without your permission, you dont look up at your screen and see "hello, I'm downloading a major OS update in the background! I may appear to have frozen, please dont turn me off, ok?", do you?

It doesnt matter if you have an HP, or Dell, you get Windows X whenever YOU want to get it.

Lets face it, apparently only the Nexus One, and its successor the Nexus S, both "by Google" get updates... the rest are SCREWED. You buy a "top of the line device", and its instantly obsolete when a new model comes out with a slightly larger screen, 4.3 inches vs 4, with the new OS update. You feel like a fool when you device doesnt have some obvious new feature enabled through an extra few dozen MB being used.

Its not good enough, no matter what your brand loyalty.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Ice Tiger]

And comparing Apple with Motorola? Still misinformation?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[thehodapp]

Basically, you're comparing being at the mercy of {motarola | samsung | ...} to get OS updates (hahahahaha), against a guarentee written into the EULA that you'll get upgrades.

At the mercy of Motorola and Samsung? Please. My phone's manufacturer (HTC) has as much power over my phone as they have over the hardware they sold me (and unless they put a remote detonator in my phone, I think it's safe to say they have none). When I bought it I immediately loaded a much faster and more feature-rich ROM than the one they provided me. One of the major reasons to open source Android was to encourage community-driven flavors of Android (like Cyanogenmod) that completely blow iOS out of the water.

Don't tell me that loading the custom ROM yourself is too much a pain in the butt. If you are a consumer who can't spend a measly hour or two reading and installing a custom ROM with well established, and easy to follow instructions, then you obviously don't care whether your phone has the latest and greatest version of Android installed. Most of the people I know who got "official" 2.2 updates to their phones barely noticed a difference other than a few more app selections and a few minor UI improvments. Not a big deal. What did iOS users get with their upgrade? A slower phone...and downgrading wasn't much fun either.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[HateBreeder]

No. That would be a much fairer comparison.

If motorola isn't updating their devices and engaging in "apple" tactics, then they are no better than they are.

They might even be worse.

What I object to is comparing the iPhone (software+hardware) to Android (Software only).

If you happen to make a poor consumer decision and buy crappy hardware - it's not Android's fault.
And if you happen to make a poor consumer decision and go with a manufacturer that will forget he ever sold anything to you - that's not Android's fault as well.

Currently, there's 1 handset "Line" on the market that is comparable to the iPhone in terms of software updates - and that's the Nexus line.

All other phones, while they might be superior to apple's phones, are not guaranteed the latest updates from the official channels.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[grrrgrrr]

That is what I call hard core fanboy-ism calling a simple fact misinformation and distorting the truth yourself at the same time. -the discussion was not about the HTC Nexus one (not officially on 2.3 yet) -almost nobody cares about community support or custom rom's - good luck to the person looking for that phone that will get all the updates out of those thousand different handsets. Those 999 other hand sets do matter even if you like to ignore them because they do not fit your argument.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[ProbablyJoe]

I don't recall Windows 7 downloading automatically when I was running Vista. I guess I turned that option off :(

Re:What's interesting about Android

[blackest_k]

you can't change the hardware that is in an existing android tablet, and updating the linux core is difficult when bits of the source is missing. The biggest limitation is the limited ram, it always is.

However that isn't really a huge problem, because most of us bought our tablets knowing what they could do and not for the things that they can't.

I've got my android tablet right now and it has enough features for me to be happy with it. I honestly don't care for the ipad and it's walled garden. I like the galaxy tab but seriously it's way over priced.

One thing which does help extend my tablet is that I also own an android phone. This provides me with additional services for the tablet. If There isn't an app to do that I will write it if no one else does first. i have the android dev kit and eclipse installed on an sd card in my netbook. The emulator is horrendously slow admittedly but its all there in 3 gb of space.

Will I buy another android tablet? almost certainly and it probably will run honeycomb but thats going to be maybe in a years time. Till then I have already found my killer app ontrack diabetes
it lets me log my blood sugars and they are improving since I started using the app on android.

So i'm happy enough, I first started playing around with a zx81 with 1k ram many years ago and worked my way through lots of computers over the years. from 8086 Ibm compatibles several flavours of amiga's my first real hdd was a 52 meg quantum fireball in my A1200 my first netbook was a EEE701 which was a bit too small. Hardware becomes obsolete and better things show up
There is no perfect hardware that will be with me for the next 20 years. Honeycomb is a step forward but it is not the final destination not by any means.

Honestly it really doesn't matter if newer android tablets are better than older ones it is always going to be that way.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

Im still waiting for 2.3 on my Nexus One.. which they have promised is just around the corner. That was 2 months ago now. talk about over commit and under deliver.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[dafing]

I was of course meaning the Pre, which told you when it was getting the updates in the background, sent OTA ?

I sort of expect that we "should" be paying for mobile OS updates, dont you? Its nice to be getting them for free, but surely there is development cost etc? If you look at the original iPhone OS release, compared to even "iPhone OS" at the time of the 3G coming out, with the App Store...its incredible, bigger than XP to Vista say. And then all the way to the present day...

Re:What's interesting about Android

[EasyTarget]

Unless you delete the appstore it will be a current measure, because the app store is accessed when you look for updates.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Ice Tiger]

If motorola isn't updating their devices and engaging in "apple" tactics, then they are no better than they are.

What do you mean by Apple tactics as I know of 3G's that are running the latest OS albeit RAM constraints stop them multi-tasking.

I work on a team that at the company I work for is just starting to produce apps for the smartphone channel and the fragmentation of Android OS's will make things more complex for us as even though Apple will have devices that have never been upgraded the percentages are far less than corresponding Android versions. This means in order to reach a greater percentage of the installed base we have to support older versions of the OS which makes it more complex and expensive to develop for.

Don't get me wrong I think Android is fantastic as competition in the mobile space is awesome but non Google manufacturers need to break away from the upgrade the device to upgrade the OS model, only then will it really shine compared to iOS.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[HateBreeder]

I don't think it's a real issue, considering that almost 90% of android devices are newer than 2.1.

http://developer.android.com/resources/dashboard/platform-versions.html

This fragmentation argument is getting old and will become completely invalid after Android matures a bit more.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[stiggle]

But its OS so the community can support the hardware the manufacturers drop.

eg. Samsung dropped support for the original Samsung Galaxy i7500 while the phone was still under contract from some of the networks - the Samsung firmware is stuck on 1.6 with them saying that it won't support 2.2 (Froyo). Fortunately due to Android being OS there is a community GAOSP (Google Android Open Source Platform) build on it which means that despite Samsung's inaction the hardware does still have the latest release on it.

Thats definately a bonus.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[AmiMoJo]

This is down to the manufacturers rather than the Android OS. If your phone runs vanilla Android you can keep it up to date yourself (e.g. Nexus One, Nexus S). If you buy a phone with a custom Android ROM you have to wait for the manufacturer to release updates, or just replace it with a vanilla one.

Most popular Android phones can run custom/vanilla ROMs. Often the custom ROMs are better than the official ones, incorporating new features and bug fixes earlier.

I own a Galaxy S and since the Nexus S is basically the same phone I will probably switch to vanilla 3.0 when it becomes available. Samsung will probably update to 3.0 sooner or later (especially as the Galaxy Tab is pretty much the same hardware with a larger screen) but there is no need to wait.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[sortius_nod]

The problem with this kind of "support" is that you are relying on the hardware being picked up by the community and developed for. What happens when your hardware isn't picked up by the community and the maker decides to EOL it before the contract ends? Or it ends up like the Motorola or Sony handsets where trying to root it is all but impossible?

Android tabs are a bit of a joke at the moment, and I'm advising all of my friends keen to get one to wait until their favourite flavour of manufacturer has Honeycomb tabs. Otherwise you're gambling on a possible update by the community should the manufacturer EOL it.

I was keen to get an Android tab mid last year, but there was nothing about. I got an iPad and have been pleased with my purchase. Sure, it didn't come with os 4.X, but it has it now and I know apple aren't going to drop support for the iPad when the iPad 2 comes out. Just as my iPhone 3G didn't lose support when the 3GS or the 4 came out.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[sortius_nod]

So you're saying that I have to buy a phone from Google or suck it up and deal with fragmentation?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[sortius_nod]

"The following pie chart and table is based on the number of Android devices that have accessed Android Market within a 14-day period ending on the data collection date noted below."

Hrmm, once I've got the apps I want I don't access the App Store for a month or two at a time.

Unfortunately that graph is not ALL devices, only devices that have accessed the market in the last 14 days prior to 02/02/11.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[sortius_nod]

This is not true, the updates are not done via the store, they are done via carrier updates (or via your computer if you install community updates). This has nothing to do with the Android Market. Some older phones don't even have the Android Market on them, nor do they have updates to give them the store.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[HateBreeder]

The Market polls periodically to check for updates. About once a day.

Unless you've somehow configured it to not check for updates at all, then It's probably quite accurate.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[ftobin]

How can you compare 1 type of handset (the iPhone) with about a THOUSAND different handsets from different manufacturers running Android?

If anything, you should compare the iPhone to a specific brand or manufacturer for instance, the HTC Nexus One - which not only has been getting ALL the android updates officially, but also has INCREDIBLE community support and car run a host of custom ROMs!

How is a customer supposed to know apriori which handset among the above-said thousands is going to get good support going forward?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[HateBreeder]

Do you even know what fragmentation means? How does this relate to the topic in any way?!

Re:What's interesting about Android

[jedrek]

If motorola isn't updating their devices and engaging in "apple" tactics, then they are no better than they are.

What "apple tactics"? The 3G runs the current version of iOS, and it was released four months before Android was released. I also have an Android phone from Google's manufacturer HTC that I bought new last year in May and I can't upgrade it past 1.6.

Honestly, it'd be great if Android headset manufacturers started engaging in "apple tactics": supporting their phones for more than two weeks after release.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[EasyTarget]

Updates to applications are done via the store.

The store has been around for a long time.

Usage statistics based on the store usage data will not be 100% accurate.. but will still be much more accurate than random slashdot trolls making shite guesses about things they do not understand.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[HateBreeder]

That is off-topic.

But normally you can read online reviews and figure it out...

Sure, that might be asking for too much for most users as they don't care.

But then again, if they don't care about reading reviews they probably can't care less about OS updates... granted, if you buy a recent android handset it will last you for a few years and if it doesn't get updated to the latest android most users won't know/care.

I though that was the whole apple demographic - non tech savvy people who want things to "just look pretty" and not go "beep beep beep", right?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[HateBreeder]

supporting their phones for more than two weeks after release.

Completely agree. That's why I think the only android phone worth getting is the Nexus line. But turns out not all users care so much about updates and the hardware specs on some of these phones beat the hell out of the iPhone.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[cbope]

Citation needed.

In fact, I'd totally agree with the article. Even Google came out and said Android 2.x was not intended for tablets, and everyone went off and designed tablet products around it anyway, after seeing the iPad sales take off.

Huge mistake, imho. I would not buy into the first wave of 2.2-based tablets, and even when Honeycomb arrives I will wait a while for the kinks to be worked out. Let's not forget that iPad was based on the same OS as the iPhone, so it was more-or-less proven working technology that was re-used for the iPad with practically no changes. Android 2.2 was only ever intended for smartphones, and forcing it onto tablets was a bad decision by everyone involved. Unfortunately it did not stop the companies from seeing $$$$, and I pity the first adopters. You are not guaranteed an upgrade path and anyone expecting such is only dreaming.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[ftobin]

You directly asserted that one one shouldn't compare one handset against a thousand, and then went on to talk about one particular Android model. Certainly one can find an Android model ex-post-facto which has had good support (via survivor bias), but the question is how to know to choose which model will be getting that great support apriori.

But normally you can read online reviews and figure it out...

By the time support might be an issue for a particular model and you've been able to verify via reviews the provider is servicing it, it is often the case that the provider has stopped selling it.

This variety in service quality doesn't appear to be an issue for the iPhone line of products.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[couchslug]

PCs are easy to upgrade. Phones are not, because they have no standards that matter much. I can't for example, download one distro that works on most Android phones and is backward compatible.

Fortunately phones are disposable.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

See this is exactly why I won't buy an Android device, until the crappy companies die off, or until we get the ASUS/Gigabyte of the phones. Not the me-too types that we're getting from all the me-too Android's with the cruddy third-party-under-powered MSI's junk from VIA.

If you know what I'm getting at... I mean that until one of these brands guarantees OS updates as fast as Apple, and build quality equivalent of Apple, it's never going to beat Apple, and will only fill in the throw-a-way price point for those people who buy a new device and-never-buy-apps every year. Apple let's you redownload all the stuff you bought via iTunes. Where is this for Android?

Gingerbread is looking good, but I'm still waiting for another major revision and all the Java funny business to be tossed before investing in it.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymusing]

I suspect that Sortius_Nod meant "market fragmentation", which is very relevant to the topic at hand. The Android market appears to be very fragmented, with widely varying degrees of implementation, capacity, and support.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[sortius_nod]

I could pose the same question to you, but I know you're just trolling.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[HateBreeder]

In the post you're quoting, Where do I speak about one particular android handset?

The question of support can is normally answered through manufacturer reputation. There's no way of determining if a mfr will live up to its reputation apriori.

When you say "By the time support might be an issue for a particular model" - as far as I know, all android handsets are sold with warranty and support. Some mfr give pretty damn good support, even if you've unlocked and rooted your phone (see HTC)... not sure about apple doing the same.

Regarding software updates - Most manufacturers post software updates and bug fixes. The topic we're talking about is full OS updates... which to most people don't really matter... and why would it? The latest honeycomb for instance mostly improves on the UI and makes it 3D like... that doesn't make sense for devices which don't have a powerful enough GPU. I think you'll find that's not much different than apple.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[HateBreeder]

Apple needs to update what ... 4 different devices that they have absolute control over?

That's not the same for Android. you rely on your manufacturer's kind-heartedness. Some do a better job than others... so beware.

It's all about choice at the end of the day. Android gives you that choice... Apple? not so much.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not good enough, no matter what your brand loyalty.

As a huge Android fan I agree. It become less of an issue for newer devices which come with 2.2 as thats a solid platform already, but being stuck on 2.1 or 1.6 (or worse 1.5 for some Motorola devices) is just horrible.

That said HTC has been reasonably good at supporting their higher end devices which I think have all been upgraded to 2.2 officially

Re:What's interesting about Android

[iJusten]

My "Flash-Ready" Motorola Milestone is still in 2.1. Last summer they told publicly that they were considering if they publish 2.2 at all, then decided it would come at the end of September.

It still hasn't materialized. The latest information is, that it would come sometime during Q1.

This was the same phone that was sold as Droid in the States, but with added bootloader protection. When users complained, the director of marketing replied that "you should have bought HTC or Nexus One".

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

Gingerbread is looking good, but I'm still waiting for another major revision and all the Java funny business to be tossed before investing in it.

Um. That's never going to happen. It would a disaster from a platform perspective; even the common usage of the currently-simplistic NDK suffers from incompatibility across all the Android hardware sets. At best Dalvik could be switched out for another virtual machine. But why should it? You simply are not going to find or create a better VM.

And FYI, Dalvik != Java != JVM. If you don't like Java, you don't need to use it for your programming. Similarly, if you don't like C#, you don't need to use it on the .NET platform (F# is much better IMO).

Re:What's interesting about Android

[tehcyder]

Manufacturers with crappy hardware/inability to upgrade software shouldn't have been allowed to call their devices "Android" It's Google's trademark, they could stop any manufacturer whose products were rubbish from using the name.

If you end up with only one manufacturer being able to offer an alternative, and costing as much as an iPhone/IPad, there's no longer any compelling reason not to choose Apple, so Google need to be careful.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

When a new computer update comes out, you get it day one, within the hour, surely? You dont have to wait for your internet provider to decide to give it to you, without your permission, you dont look up at your screen and see "hello, I'm downloading a major OS update in the background! I may appear to have frozen, please dont turn me off, ok?", do you?

Most don't buy their PCs subsidized by their service provider. Plus, they're modular, with swappable GPUs, storage, CPUs, ram, etc. all from thousands of different manufacturers. You have virtually unlimited numbers of configurations to worry about. Mobile devices are small, heavily tailored to one configuration, difficult or impossible to upgrade individual components- needless to say you're comparing apples to watermelons.

 

Lets face it, apparently only the Nexus One, and its successor the Nexus S, both "by Google" get updates... the rest are SCREWED

Motorola and HTC have been very good about supporting existing devices. The original Droid started out with Android 2.0. It was upgraded to 2.0.1->2.1->2.2 and finally got its 2.2.1 update a year after its release. All of HTC's Android phones since the Nexus One have been updated to Froyo as well, which is impressive for a company smaller than most of its competitors and the most phone models in its lineup.

The Android community knows all-to-well that other companies, especially Samsung and Sony Ericsson, are sorely lacking in product support. So they're apt to pick devices from manufacturers that understand the value of customer loyalty and retention.

 

You buy a "top of the line device", and its instantly obsolete when a new model comes out with a slightly larger screen, 4.3 inches vs 4, with the new OS update. You feel like a fool when you device doesnt have some obvious new feature enabled through an extra few dozen MB being used.

Not necessarily. If you have to have the latest and greatest all the time, you'll be constantly upgrading. For the rest of us, we suck it up and enjoy our smartphones for 2 years and then buy another one. If one manufacturer doesn't give an upgrade (at least one they didn't promise beforehand), make a mental note to not buy from them again. That's why I continue buying from HTC.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[HateBreeder]

I think a lot of people who can't afford an iPhone are quite happy with an extremely powerful android alternative for the cheap on low end hardware. They don't care about the updates as much as you think.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[supremebob]

No offense, but if you ever TRIED using an iPhone 3G with iOS4, you'll quickly find out that Apple would have been better off cutting off upgrades for that device at version 3.

The interface goes from being perfectly usable to damn slow, and applications running on the phone constantly run out of memory and crash.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[tehcyder]

When I bought it I immediately loaded a much faster and more feature-rich ROM than the one they provided me.

which you should not have to do, and which 99% of people never will do.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[tehcyder]

outdated smartphones don't make great paddles

But the thing is, the phone still works the same way it did when you bought it, so normal users really won't give a flying fuck that it doesn't have the latest software. As long as you can buy a new battery in a couple of years time who cares if the software is"old". That's a purely geek obsession.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[sortius_nod]

Yep, Motorola have been great with their devices, their Xoom isn't going to screw over customers at all.

FYI, I haven't had my iPad on a plan ever. I cut my own sim and it's on pre-paid.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[tehcyder]

Fortunately phones are disposable.

Not if they cost three or four hundred quid.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[peragrin]

Yep you have roughly 4 handsets that get decent support the rest are obsolete the moment you open the box, never receiving another update ever.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[ozmanjusri]

Have you been hearing all the issues early adopters have been having with getting their Android devices updated?

There's been a lot of negative marketing, sure.

but Android gives you far more choices than iOS, both in hardware and software.

FTFY

I'm sure a few of the early generation of Android devices will be hard (though not impossible) to upgrade, but the companies that sell those defective products will lose marketshare pretty quickly as buyers realise there are better options. It's the result of a system called "Capitalism".

Re:What's interesting about Android

[gabebear]

You have to take this into context of hardware age. The iPhone 3G came out BEFORE the first Android phone(HTC Dream).

I think how Android updates get held back is shameful... Besides fragmenting the community it also leaves gaping security holes open.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[dbIII]

That's the pain that comes from fencing off an open platform :(
You don't even have root on some of those devices or can't boot from alternative media.
Ironically that makes some Nokia devices where the OS is not a sales point a far more open platform than the devices that are labelled with the "open" Android OS.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[MadKeithV]

How can you compare 1 type of handset (the iPhone) with about a THOUSAND different handsets from different manufacturers running Android?

You mean like the FA is doing with the iPad vs. all Android tablets?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Spad]

Being in the UK it took a couple of months between 2.2 being rolled out in the US and it hitting my Nexus One, but I did still get it well before all of my HTC-wielding friends.

I know Google don't want to impose too many controls over the handset manufacturers, but they really need to do something to encourage them to upgrade the OS where the hardware can handle it.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[gabebear]

I've played with 2.2 on my G1... it's not terrible, but of course it has plenty of limitations. Installing Flash makes the browser crash and plenty of apps just fail to launch... I went back to 1.6.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Spad]

Which is great except where you're fixing reliability and security issues. Phones aren't simple any more and these things are - for better or worse - potentially significant issues these days.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[stewski]

or working!

Re:What's interesting about Android

[peragrin]

That's like saying 90% of iphones are running IOS 2.0 and greater.

2.1 was released 2 years ago.
2.3 was released last year and yet the majority of android handsets sold right now are with 2.2 and 2.1

When Apple releases it appears in the delivery channels with in a month.

At best Android handsets are 6-9 months behind google with most handsets running 12-18 months behind, If they ever get updates at all.

That is the android problem. Maybe when the phone features stabilize a bit more in 2-3 years will it be less of an issue, but right now it is a bloody mess.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[stewski]

That said, each android update to my £100 phone has increased the speed and battery life, how is the 3G doing on iOS4?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[poetmatt]

what motorola or sony handset hasn't been rooted? I can see you're a bit of an apple minded individual, which tells me that we're not talking on the same level of consciousness.
what android phone hasn't been rooted by now? hint: all phones have. Unlike apple's "you have to jailbreak and lose features to gain features", doesn't happen that way with android. You think the original iphone 3g can run the latest OS? Oh right, nope. Meanwhile, how is the original android phone doing? Running cyanogenmod latest version just fine.

I agree that all tablets are a bit of a joke at this moment. I mean look at the xoom. $800? anything above $400 for a tablet is a fucking joke.

Meanwhile, ipads are equally crap, not worth their money, and who really wants something on iOS? Ipad was simply first, but that doesn't mean they are better, just that they had a lead. People who buy an ipad simply don't know better, that no tablet that exists right now is in good shape for use. I mean really, reading, board games? get a laptop/computer to do it better and cheaper. There's pretty much nothing that a tablet does better at the moment other than simply being in a different form factor.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[BasilBrush]

Apple release iOS upgrades for all iPhones/iPads all on the same day. The only exception is when they get so old they aren't up to the job of running the latest version. So far that's only affected the very first iPhone.

The iPhone 3G was released before the first of the Android phones. It still gets every iOS update, at the same time as every other generation.

Meanwhile many Android phone users are stuck on 1.x versions.

The "issue" is exactly the opposite way round to your theory.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[LostCluster]

The thing about the one-SKU iPhone vs. all the Android implementations is that Apple can maintain tight standards for the iPhone, while Google's control over what hardware is used is not possible... some lame products have come out and that soils the reputation of the good ones. Cheapest parts are often inferior to the most desirable parts.

Apple has always been about tight control, meanwhile Google was built on and seems to love open source. I think there's room for both types in this world.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[peragrin]

Well right now if you don't have a nexus phone you have about a 75% chance of never getting an update at all period, not even bug fixes.

Any android phone running 2.1 is similar to IOS 2.0 That is how far back it goes. Zero iphones are sold with 3.0 now let alone 2.0

I shouldn't have to destroy my warranty just to get bug fixes. That is what you currently get from android.
It pisses me off too, I want an android phone but I also want the manufacturer to stand behind it for longer than 30 seconds.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the same thing because it seems android bumps their version numbers much faster than iOS.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[BasilBrush]

Have you been hearing all the issues early adopters have been having with getting their Android devices updated?

There's been a lot of negative marketing, sure.

It's not marketing. It's users on the internet complaining that once they got an Android phone they are stuck with the OS version it shipped with.

Of course it's open source! So theoretically they could download the OS and port it themselves! Sure. Right after they finish work on their own moon rocket.

Meanwhile, every iPhone user since the 3G (which predates Android) automatically gets updated to the latest OS version whenever they sync.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's hard to name android devices that even got the bump from 1.6 to 2.0, hell, 90% of them don't even get *minor* OS version updates from the one they started on, there are still plenty of 1.5/2.0/2.1 devices out there for exactly that reason."

Er, no.

http://developer.android.com/resources/dashboard/platform-versions.html

My HTC Magic from Vodafone was on 1.5 originally, got 1.6, now has 2.2.1.

I'd agree updates are slow from some cellcos, but they generally seem to come.

Having 89% of phones on 2.1/2.2 is pretty good.

Regarding minor updates, it really depends what you mean. Android doesn't really have minor updates for the OS, the marketplace gets updated separately.

Personally I'd rather have an Android phone that my carrier will support for at least the life of the contract and that I have the option of upgrading myself before or after my carrier stops supporting it than an iPhone that's out of date without question after a mere 2 years.

Still, nice troll fanboy.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[JasterBobaMereel]

The problem was that Google said that Android would not work on a Tablet, was not designed for it, and they would never support it ...

That is what Honeycomb is... Android for tablets, and it will not work on smaller devices (smart phones), the early Android tablets were pushed out with an OS that does not support tablets ... and often with very iffy hardware ...

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Totenglocke]

Uhm, no. Not true at all. Even if you never browse for another new app again, you'll still access the Marketplace every time that you update an app (which Android apps tend to get updated pretty frequently with new features being added all the time - it's actually a nice improvement over when I had an iPhone and you only got updates once a month because Apple makes them submit each update for approval).

Re:What's interesting about Android

[DJRumpy]

I can see you're a bit of an Android minded individual, which tells me that we're not talking on the same level of consciousness.

When it comes to rooting a phone, you are essentially doing hte same thing as jailbreaking an iPhone. In the end you are still at the mercy of the handset vendors. The OS may be open, but the vendors and cell networks most definitely are not. Faced with a choice of letting the provider make the decisions, or the manufacturer, I'd choose the manufacturer every time since they have more incentive to make their hardware a popular buy, where the provider doesn't care once they get you under a contract.

You slam the parent for essentially ignoring Android, and then agree with the parent that the tablets are crap. The parent stated his reason (uncertainty of support from the manufacturer or the community) and the poor state of the current crop of hardware, both of which should be valid concerns for any buyer, yet you dismiss his concerns simply because he opted for hardware that will definitely have vendor support for many years, and has a polished interface.

I should also point out that 3G runs iOS4 with support directly from Apple. I believe you are referring to the iPhone 2g released in 2007 which cannot run iOS4. Unless there is some hidden Android phone I'm not aware of, there are none that were around when the 2G was released. Given it's memory, not a surprising call from Apple, however there is an active mod community for the phone in either case.

http://www.redmondpie.com/ios-4.0-for-iphone-2g-ipod-touch-1g/

Re:What's interesting about Android

[sortius_nod]

I'm not an "apple minded individual" I bought an iPhone 3G as there were no Android phones in Australia at the time other than really early releases that were, at best, shoddy, and just as Android soft locks you in due to purchases, so does iOS devices. I was more than happy to go with an Android tablet, as I stated, so I really don't see how this shows me as "apple minded".

You're belittling my buying choices because I chose to go with a mature platform rather than a rushed to market platform. I was anticipating that Google would release an awesome OS, but my hopes were dashed when I played with an Android device and installed a VM of Android way back when the initial phones were released. It was half baked at best, broken at worst.

You're talking as though your "level of consciousness" is somehow higher but you say things like "who really wants something on iOS", I'd say you have the same level of maturity as the initial releases of Android did. Sure, Android has matured, but not all handsets have been updated. To be honest, I don't want to have to potentially kill my device just so I can get the latest version of the OS. I buy phone to make calls, browse the net a bit, get my emails, and run apps I find useful, not to play around with (I run a VMWare ESXi platform for that).

If you can't handle the truth that Android tablets were rushed to market and that Android is fragmented, maybe you should find something else to be a zealot about.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[UnknowingFool]

Meanwhile, ipads are equally crap, not worth their money, and who really wants something on iOS? Ipad was simply first, but that doesn't mean they are better, just that they had a lead. People who buy an ipad simply don't know better, that no tablet that exists right now is in good shape for use. I mean really, reading, board games? get a laptop/computer to do it better and cheaper. There's pretty much nothing that a tablet does better at the moment other than simply being in a different form factor.

That's a rather broad over simplification of everyone who has bought an iPad. Personally I don't have a use for a tablet; that doesn't mean no one has a use for one. Yes, tablets have less capability and have a different form factor than laptops, but some people want a different form factor and are not looking for maximum capability. Many people buy powerful desktops just to surf the web and read email; they don't program or create 3D animations for film. A laptop is ideal if you have a horizontal surface to rest upon like a desk or lap. It's not as comfortable if held in your hands only. Remember, use the best tool for the job. Not everything requires a hammer.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[rjstanford]

What I object to is comparing the iPhone (software+hardware) to Android (Software only).

Ah, but that's the key difference between the two platforms - indeed, its the same story in OSX vs. Windows. One is only sold as part of a solution, and one is available piecemeal. Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally, when I was young I greatly preferred the piecemeal approach - I had more time than money, and it rewarded me for making the effort to stay current. These days I find myself much happier making that somebody else's problem, and I find that the solution approach works for me.

To my mind, the iPhone/iOS solution runs about about 95% of ideal. The Android devices I've played with start at more like 80%, but I've been told that with a time and education investment on my part I can get them up to 98-99%. For me, the additional work compared to the payoff is a bad deal. Your balance may be different.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[rjstanford]

The funny thing is that half of the Android comments are talking about "increased choice," while the other half are bashing "idiots" who purchased anything other than an HTC phone. Often, these comments are from the same person (not talking about your history personally, just an observation).

Having the power to make the wrong decision is indeed power. But it turns out that a benevolent dictatorship a la Apple actually works very well for many people to whom their phone's inner workings are not the focal point of their day.

Solutions providers have a place in the world, just as more discrete vendors do.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[GaryOlson]

...got an Android phone they are stuck with the OS version it shipped with.....Meanwhile, every iPhone user,,,

RTFA before you comment? This is about tablets; not phones. I have avoided the Droid phones for just this reason. But a $275 tablet is a useful device; and Honeycomb will be supported on tablets for which is was designed

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Miamicanes]

> I own a Galaxy S and since the Nexus S is basically the same phone

If your Galaxy S is GSM and you don't use T-Mobile 4G, you're mostly right. If your Galaxy S is CDMA, and particularly an Epic4G, you're mostly fucked.

The loadable kernel modules are what will kill you. Linux doesn't have a stable ABI, which means that drivers (.ko modules) compiled for an older kernel won't necessarily (read: won't) work on a newer kernel (think Win98->WinXP, but worse... like being unable to use a driver made for XP Pro/32 under Vista Business/32. Officially, the Linux kernel could break binary compatibility over the equivalent of going from XPsp1 to XPsp2. Samsung gets partial credit for releasing drivers as proper loadable kernel modules (so they can at least be used with recompiled versions of the same kernel), but source-wise, their drivers are as bad as HTC's -- they aren't directly buildable because they have unsatisfied dependencies. The difference is that HTC at least releases new kernels in a timely manner, so the community can grab them and move forward instead of being stalled for 6 months waiting for 4G drivers that work on a 2.6.32 kernel (needed for Froyo) to metaphorically fall from the sky.

All we ask is for Samsung to at least practice benign neglect and say, "Look, bitch to Sprint if you want an official 2.2 upgrade, but in the meantime, here's a zipfile of everything proprietary that you can't compile yourself, recompiled against 2.6.32. Same drivers, same bugs, but automatically rebuilt for 2.6.32's ABI. Have fun."

Of course, Samsung won't do that, because it would mean that by the time the official carrier upgrade makes it out (if ever), it would be *totally* eclipsed by community builds that do more with fewer bugs (because the community versions would have a real-world 4-6 month head start, and several orders of magnitude more hours of developer time behind them). The truth is, though, the carriers would actually have a reasonable excuse to give less technical end users who complained about having to wait: "Our upgrade doesn't make you blow away everything and start over from scratch every time. It lets you upgrade in-place, and should be relatively seamless." Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[BrokenHalo]

Yes, tablets have less capability and have a different form factor than laptops

Of course, the different form factor is what makes it a tablet rather than a laptop. ;-) My only grizzle is that nobody seems inclined to put a laptop's capabilities into a non-clunky tablet. I don't need it to be super-fast, just usable for the same tasks. I'm not comfortable with Apple's concept of a device designed to run only whatever content Apple sells - one thing at a time, just like in the old DOS days.

Nor am I happy with it running Android, though I am comfortable with my phone doing so. I don't expect that much of my phone, but the bigger device should allow more and better capabilities, not just the same software rattling around in a bigger box.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[BrokenHalo]

I think how Android updates get held back is shameful... Besides fragmenting the community it also leaves gaping security holes open.

Agreed. The only upside is for the telcos: it gives them lots and lots of time to think of more crapware to load on your phone. That in itself is the single best reason to root your phone.

But some of us might be stuck when it comes to Gingerbread anyway, as (I'm told) it requires more RAM than a lot of older (and some new) devices offer. I suspect I'm in that boat with my Sony/Ericsson Xperia X10 Mini Pro. However, none of the alternatives afford that sort of compact form factor (a big plus for me), so I will remain content to lie in the bed that I made.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[BasilBrush]

What, so even though there were broken promises on OS upgrades with various Android phones, you're going to have amnesia and believe that those same manufacturers are going to stick to their word this time?

More importantly, Android v3.0 (Honeycomb) will only keep you happy for a while. When new users are getting 4.3 and you're still on 3.0 will you still be happy?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Americano]

You think the original iphone 3g can run the latest OS?

Yes, actually, I do. The iPhone 3G, 3GS, and 4 are all supported by iOS 4.2, the latest release of iOS, as well as the iPod Touch 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation devices, and the iPad. Did you think the original iPhone 3G didn't run the latest iOS?

There's pretty much nothing that a tablet does better at the moment other than simply being in a different form factor.

You can drive a fucking Kia down a logging trail, too. That doesn't mean it's the best choice for offroading.

You realize that the different form factor is the entire raison d'etre of a tablet, right? The different form factor makes certain categories of tasks easier and more efficient than a desktop or a laptop. If you can't think of anything a tablet does better, here's a few:

1) Try using a netbook for ANYTHING while walking around or standing upright without a stationary surface to put your netbook on. Then try it with a tablet.
2) Try laying on the couch while reading a book from your 24" desktop monitor. Then try it on a tablet.
3) Try playing a (musical) keyboard synthesizer on a desktop or laptop. Then try it on a tablet: you can actually "play" the tablet. Not so the others. Certainly useful for musicians who get an idea or want to record a rough melody that comes to them as soon as the inspiration strikes, wouldn't you say?
4) Try sketching or drawing anything more than stick figures without a specialized piece of hardware (Wacom or similar) on a desktop or laptop. Then try it on a tablet: you can actually do some pretty sophisticated artwork with just an iPad, your finger, and a decent drawing program.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Americano]

If anything, you should compare the iPhone to a specific brand or manufacturer, for instance the HTC Nexus One

Right, you should compare it to the single Android phone which makes Android look good, rather than the vast majority of Android phones that make the iPhone look good by comparison.

Let's be honest: The *average* Android handset experience is *nothing* like the experience of people running a Nexus One or Nexus S.

How can you compare 1 type of handset with about a THOUSAND different handsets from different manufacturers running Android?

We'll be using this same metric when it comes to platform market share, too, right? Comparing specific models from specific companies, rather than 1 model from 1 company, and a lump of "every phone which runs some version of this OS"? (That question's rhetorical - I know you won't use that measure.)

It's sad that misinformation has to be the key tactic to make apple look good.

Pot, meet kettle. (Bonus round pro tip: they're both black!)

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Americano]

So bumping the version number frequently somehow *speeds up* the 6-18 month upgrade lag?

If I'm Motorola, or Samsung, that's simply going to make me slow down the upgrades, and only upgrade my phones with every other or every third Android release. Or just ignore the updates, and not spend the engineering time on supporting old versions because I've already gotten my money from the customer, and long term support is simply reducing my profit margin. Let the customer hack their phone themselves if they want an upgrade so badly, amirite?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

I'm sure a few of the early generation of Android devices will be hard (though not impossible) to upgrade, but the companies that sell those defective products will lose marketshare pretty quickly as buyers realise there are better options. It's the result of a system called "Capitalism".

You are assuming that a notable part of customers actually buy Android phones not only because they kinda look like iPhones but are cheaper. As well as that those who actually care for more will buy another Android phone after they had such a shitty experience with their first one.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[compro01]

This discussion is about tablets, not phones. Market data isn't useful for tablets. Anything without a 3G transceiver (e.g. wifi-only tablets) doesn't get into the market, at least not on its own (Getting market access on my little Archos 32 is as simple as downloading and installing a package, but it remains locked out of the new web market trick.), though hopefully this will change with the release of honeycomb.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[drb226]

The oldest Android phone, the G1, has community mods of Froyo. People have made extended batteries for the device. Both upgraded hardware (ok not a dazzling example, but still) and software, far beyond what you can say for the "iPhone 1"...

Re:What's interesting about Android

[domatic]

When it comes to rooting a phone, you are essentially doing hte same thing as jailbreaking an iPhone. In the end you are still at the mercy of the handset vendors. The OS may be open, but the vendors and cell networks most definitely are not. Faced with a choice of letting the provider make the decisions, or the manufacturer, I'd choose the manufacturer every time since they have more incentive to make their hardware a popular buy, where the provider doesn't care once they get you under a contract.

Yes and no. Simply rooting a phone is analogous to jailbreaking an iDevice. However, many who root Android devices also replace the firmware with a community build and that is not at all the same as iDevice rooting. Apple is always interested in frustrating jailbreakers and updates tend to undo jailbreaking so either have to hold off updating until a new jailbreak is out or do without the benefits of jailbreaking. But a firmware replaced Android device is out of vendor control permanently. And groups like Cynanogen have already proven themselves faster and generally more competent than the vendors.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Merk42]

If you're calling hard (though not impossible) to upgrade a defective product, please show me a non defective Android device. Even Google's Nexus One STILL hasn't even gotten Gingerbread.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Merk42]

I think more relevant would be: "When new users are getting Android 3.1 and you're still on 3.0 will you still be happy?"

Re:What's interesting about Android

[hitmark]

As there is nothing in honeycomb, except perhaps the ui, that can not be "backported" to phone, i suspect we will see a "honey-phone" soon enough.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[iamhassi]

The original iPhone, sometimes called iPhone 2g, can not run iOS 4. Highest version is iOS 3.x. Of course the iPhone 2g came out in 2007 so you can't expect to run the lastest OS on a 5 yr old phone. We'll see how well a 5 yr old Android phone does when Android has been out for 5 yrs, but last I heard phones that are just a year or two old are having a hard time updating.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[jo_ham]

Poorly. The hardware is still struggling since it was designed with the 3GS in mind. They have updated since release though with performance tweaks for the 3G (I have one, and have been comparing) so they haven't just said "just buy an iPhone 4!" they are actually trying to make it better.

Battery life has been unaffected, it's still as good as it was - no complaints here.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[cshay]

You *don't* want 2.2 on that phone. Trust me. http://androidforums.com/motorola-droid/147226-2-2-slow-icon-refresh.html

Re:What's interesting about Android

[iamhassi]

I sort of expect that we "should" be paying for mobile OS updates, dont you?

SHHHH!!! Don't encourage apple! On desktops every update is $100+, updating from 10 to 10.1 was $100, 10.1 to 10.2 was $125, etc. I don't want that on my iPhone!

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Americano]

I'm aware that the original iPhone isn't supported on iOS 4. The post i responded to specifically said "you think the iPhone 3g can run the latest OS" - and that is unequivocally true. The iPhone 3G absolutely can, although iOS 4 is (naturally) much slower on iPhone 3G hardware than it is on the iPhone 4, or even the iPhone 3GS. If he meant to say 2G, or "the original iPhone" (without a designator) he'd have been accurate.

But, if that's our frame of reference I suspect there's a lot of Android phones newer than the original iPhone that don't run "the latest Android" and never will, too. Old hardware support gets dropped, and hardware requirements expand over time, this is the nature of the business.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Draek]

Dunno where the comparison with iOS comes from, as Apple is notorious for abandoning their users software-wise in a generation or two, even on their desktop PCs.

In fact, on that regard currently the best company would be Sony, of all things, the PSP was released back in 2004 and it's still receiving software updates. Which makes me wonder, do they make a cheap tablet PC?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[bonch]

But its OS so the community can support the hardware the manufacturers drop.

Sure, that's reassuring. "You may or may not be able to rely on unpaid volunteers to support your hardware."

Re:What's interesting about Android

[bonch]

what motorola or sony handset hasn't been rooted? I can see you're a bit of an apple minded individual, which tells me that we're not talking on the same level of conscious

You can't even write English properly, so let's not start throwing out mental quips.

Meanwhile, ipads are equally crap, not worth their money, and who really wants something on iOS? Ipad was simply first, but that doesn't mean they are better, just that they had a lead. People who buy an ipad simply don't know better, that no tablet that exists right now is in good shape for use. I mean really, reading, board games? get a laptop/computer to do it better and cheaper. There's pretty much nothing that a tablet does better at the moment other than simply being in a different form factor.

I picture every Android user stereotype like this--an angry, bitter person convincing themselves that they're smarter and more enlightened than the people who choose iOS devices.

Where did all this ridiculous, vitriolic Apple hatred come from? Slashdot was usually critical but supportive of Apple, but when Android came out, a flood of Google fanboys turned the comments section into their personal blog to rant about the dumb, ignorant Apple users they hate so much. Android is not that great, and half of Android smartphone users are considering a switch to the iPhone, according to a recent survey. So maybe there's something to it. Maybe they like the responsive interface, the great design, and the lack of malware?

The stereotype of the Apple users is that of a smug, condescending tool, yet it's the Android fanboys who have proven themselves to be the most bitter, antisocial, religious people I've ever seen online. Every iOS article on Slashdot now receives a flood of anonymous comments bashing the platform and personally insulting its users. It's reached suspicious levels of predictability.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Relayman]

I wouldn't call running OS 9 on a four-year-old laptop "abandoned." And I can still run PowerPC-only software on Intel thanks to some widget I downloaded from Apple.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[bonch]

The interface goes from being perfectly usable to damn slow, and applications running on the phone constantly run out of memory and crash.

What are you talking about? I didn't experience this at all when I upgraded my older iPod touch. Can you cite any specific applications that are constantly crashing?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Belial6]

Number 4 is unfair, as the whole I pad is a specialized piece of hardware. The fact that desktop/laptops are far more modular is a plus, not a minus.

Let me add a replacement though...

New 4) Home automation screen.

Yes, semi-niche, but less so than trying to use it as a musical instrument. A home automation touchscreen interface is basically a glorified web browser. These things tended to cost more than a $1k, but if you wanted a screen mounted on your wall for your system, that is what you had to pay. Even the lowliest of the tablets available have a web browser on them, and are plenty thin enough to mount on a wall.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[s73v3r]

Hell Yeah!

Typing from my Samsung Vibrant, which still has yet to be updated to 2.2

Re:What's interesting about Android

[s73v3r]

Hell, the G1 was introduced a year after the iPhone, and it was dropped from support a lot sooner than the iPhone.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[s73v3r]

People have also made extended batteries for the iPhone. Your point?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Belial6]

That is the double edged sword of the more open development environment. For Apple, they would have just not shipped the update to anyone until they could ship it to everyone. With Android, it gets shipped as it gets when it is ready for each device. I can see a complaint if your phone is still on 1.6, but complaining that your phone is not yet on Gingerbread is as more a complaint that someone else got it first than it is a complaint that you don't have it yet.

I do have a Nexus One. Well... I did until I dropped it 5 feet onto a hard tile floor and shattered the screen. Now I am waiting to see if it can be fixed so, maybe I have a Nexus One. Anyway, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that I don't have Gingerbread yet. I am anxious to get it, as I updated my Viewsonic gTablet to Gingerbread, and there are a few enhancements that I am looking forward to, but if Google had just not released it to anyone until I could get it too, it wouldn't help me at all. In fact, it would have just prevented me from updating my tablet that is running Cyanogen.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[s73v3r]

It's sad that misinformation has to be the key tactic to make apple look good.

Ok, we'll play your game. Lets compare the iPhone to just about every other Android handset out there. Lets try the Samsung Vibrant. No update. Ok, how about the Moto Cliq. No update. Ok, how about the G1. The one that came out at about the same time as the iPhone 3G. The iPhone 3G was updated to the newer iOS. How about the G1? No update.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[s73v3r]

SHHHH!!! Don't encourage apple! On desktops every update is $100+, updating from 10 to 10.1 was $100, 10.1 to 10.2 was $125, etc. I don't want that on my iPhone!

I know! And that horrible update to 10.6, being $30! Terrible.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[metamatic]

But its OS so the community can support the hardware the manufacturers drop.

Only if the manufacturer has obeyed the GPL. HTC hasn't, I'm still waiting for the kernel source they're supposed to provide on request for the phone I bought nearly a year ago.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[HateBreeder]

What's your point?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[s73v3r]

If you happen to make a poor consumer decision and buy crappy hardware - it's not Android's fault.
And if you happen to make a poor consumer decision and go with a manufacturer that will forget he ever sold anything to you - that's not Android's fault as well.

Doesn't matter. It still affects the public perception of Android. People are going to notice that the iPhone is getting regular updates, whereas their Android phone isn't.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[s73v3r]

That chart isn't what you think it is.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[s73v3r]

So the entire illusion of "choice" is crap, because there's only one line worth getting?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[s73v3r]

I think most people who can't afford an iPhone also can't afford a decent Android device, as they cost about the same.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Outdated argument. It'll matter for smartphones because users won't be able to get the latest games, like their friends do. Phones aren't just phones anymore and hardly anyone treats them as just phones, not even the relatively tech illiterate.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Americano]

I honestly don't see how it's unfair: I was rebutting the assertion that there's "nothing" you can do with an iPad that existing laptops and desktops can't do as well or better, and the point is that the iPad form factor (the "specialized piece of hardware") is exactly what makes *some* operations easier than they would be on their desktop/netbook/laptop counterparts.

The point isn't to say 1 is "better or worse" in all situations. I'd add your replacement as #5, because let's be honest - you *can* do that stuff with a wall-mounted flat panel and a companion cpu/keyboard/mouse hidden somewhere else, but it's a lot more convenient to use something like a tablet, because it combines all of that into a single compact, wall-mountable form factor. Just like the drawing example the form factor lends itself very well to some applications where a traditional computer simply would be a pain in the ass or far more expensive.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[s73v3r]

The Nexus handsets are only really available on T-Mobile. There was a version of the Nexus One that ran on AT&T. However, for anyone who lives where those carriers don't exist, you don't get a Nexus.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Android vendors don't need to do the heavy lifting, creating the OS. They just have to make sure their hardware and firmware works with the OS they are given by Google. How many different Android devices does each vendor have to support ? Maybe HTC has more than 4 but they also have complete control over the hardware they offer in their phone.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[s73v3r]

My point is that you can't cherry pick the one golden boy handset. You do have to look at Android as a whole, as that's what people are getting into.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[compro01]

I suppose you also don't bother with updates for your desktop either. Who needs security updates, as long as the computer "still works the same way it did when you bought it"?

Security is rapidly becoming very important for smartphones. Practically every major bank has released mobile banking applications for the major players (iOS, Android, and Blackberry). Do you want that platform going without security updates? I sure as hell don't.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Kenshin]

"updating from 10 to 10.1 was $100"

Really?

I remember it being free.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

iOS4.0.0, perhaps, but subsequent releases of iOS4 have remedied the situation. I'm running 4.2.1 on my 3G and it runs as well or better than iOS3 ever did.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[cayenne8]

"Dunno where the comparison with iOS comes from, as Apple is notorious for abandoning their users software-wise in a generation or two, even on their desktop PCs."

Yep...not a lot of updates coming down to my iBook G3 ppc unit these days from Apple.

In fact..just to breath a bit more life into it...custom compiling Gentoo Linux for it....should be good for a few more years use after that...

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, so 3.5 = 5 now? (2011 - mid-2007).

Re:What's interesting about Android

[mattack2]

Slashdot was usually critical but supportive of Apple

Whatchu talking' about, Willis?

"less space than a Nomad, lame".

Re:What's interesting about Android

[julesh]

Only if the manufacturer has obeyed the GPL. HTC hasn't, I'm still waiting for the kernel source they're supposed to provide on request for the phone I bought nearly a year ago.

Really? I see quite a few available here. Are you sure your phone isn't on the list?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[PCM2]

My Motorola Defy just received an update. It didn't change to a new Android version number, but it improved UI performance, stability, and voicemail functionality -- and those kind of things seem like they're even more important, no? If they make my phone work better, for free, what do I care what OS version it's running?

Re:What's interesting about Android

[julesh]

Wow, good thing you went with the open platform otherwise you might have had to compile your own hacked third party OS update together when the manufacturer bailed on you. Just think of the hours you could have not spent searching through forums and triple checking instructions. Good thing you didn't fall into Apple's trap. /sarcasm

You do realise installing one of these community builds is pretty-much just a case of download, hook up via USB, and tell the installer to upload it, right? OK, it may be a multi-step process (you have to root the device first), but you don't have to compile yourself; there are other people who will do that for you. Typical instructions here.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah ios 4.2 runs like a dream on an iphone 3g. How bout you try to read a book from the netbook instead of a 24inch screen. You need moving keys to play the keyboard at the least preferably weighted.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

except when you put 4.2 on an old iphone it licks balls

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Dr Max]

Its not that hard to root, and when you do you get full functionality not like with apple jailbreakme where its all slow and glitchy.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[the_arrow]

Yes the upgrades for most Android phones are non-existing, but it's not better for feature phones either. So I would say that it's pretty as it always have been, with Apple upping the ante.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Manufacturers with crappy hardware/inability to upgrade software shouldn't have been allowed to call their devices "Android" It's Google's trademark, they could stop any manufacturer whose products were rubbish from using the name.

But then Google couldn't post inflated market share numbers.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[metamatic]

Yes. MyTouch 3G Slide, and they haven't released the BlueZ source, so Cyanogen Mod Bluetooth doesn't work properly.

Re:What's interesting about Android

[samwichse]

Yeah, Motorola's never getting any more business from me because of this crap. And this is my third Motorola phone. Some old POS->ruggedized phone and XT720.

Bootloader on the XT720 is locked down tight on 2.1. Motorola's said they won't release an update (but the Korean Motoroi, almost the exact same phone, is getting at least 2.2). 2.2 came out 35 days after I bought it NEW from them. FU Motorola.

Trying to force me to upgrade perfectly good hardware in a year or two by using your stupid signed bootloader? You just killed the goose, my friend.

Sam

Re:What's interesting about Android

[bemymonkey]

You're on the right track. The Motorola Milestone was my first and last Motorola device... never ever again. :)

Re:What's interesting about Android

[Anonymous Coward]

This whole recompiling-stuff-with-the-kernel thing bit you in the ass, eh?

What?

[lennier1]

They didn't include an Archos product, even though their tablets are pretty common in the European entry-level segment?

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an Archos Internet 32, it is a bit like an Apple Itouch but doesn't feel quite so well built. It has just had an OS bump from 2.1 to 2.2. It it true that some of the older Archos tablets are stuck on 1.5 but the latest Archos devices are pretty good. You can get Android Market but with a hack due to Google wanting 3G connectivity in devices. I doubt it will run gingerbread but the Android 2.1/2.2 is fine for tablets.

It is nice to have a device that you can just mount on Unix and copy what you want. It also is much more flexible in terms of media that it can play, you can even download FLV straight from YouTube to the device.

wtf

[sjwt]

No I haven't read the article, but from the summery it's sounds more like shitty engineering and design killed that Android tables.

Re:wtf

[Chicken_Kickers]

So what? Early adopters will always pay the price for essentially mass-beta testing a product. Furthermore, the iPads and their ilk are hardly essential. No trains are going to have brake failures and plough into a 10 storey building full of war orphans because of a technical issue of Android tablets. It is a mass produced toy, nothing more. If manufacturers of a disposable electronic toy waits until it is "perfect" it is probably already behind the curve. Market forces will whittle down the low quality offerings until only the reasonably good ones remain.

Re:wtf

[mjwx]

No I haven't read the article, but from the summery it's sounds more like shitty engineering and design killed that Android tables.

And you'd be right, I doubt the poster to writer of TFA has used Android tablets, I have and you're spot on, apart from the assertion that Android tablets are dead.

I haven't found any to be flimsy but definitely a product designed and made with cheap, low quality components end up as products that are cheap and low quality.

GIGO is a well known principal amongst engineers, unfortunately not that well known amongst engineering managers.

BTW, if Android tablets are dead, then the entire tablet market is also dead which may not be that far off. I'm not convinced the tablet thing isn't a fad that will wear off in 12-18 months. Tablets have been around for years yet have not found an actual purpose outside of niche applications.

Re:wtf

[halowolf]

Oh don't worry, the actual article wasn't much longer than the summary anyway.

Re:wtf

[halowolf]

I think that the eBook market is going to help tablets to be a sustainable piece of technology. I got an iPad as an eBook reader for the fact that I don't get locked in to a single eBook service and so that I can do other things with it, not just read books. eBook providers like Amazon (though they have readers of their own) don't get all huffy and say its either their way or the highway and make apps for other platforms so people use their service that otherwise wouldn't. I suppose time will tell :)

Re:wtf

[Ice Tiger]

I'm not convinced the tablet thing isn't a fad that will wear off in 12-18 months. Tablets have been around for years yet have not found an actual purpose outside of niche applications.

I would agree except I use my iPad with it's apps probably more than my gaming PC, XBox and Macbook Pro. Simple things like having all documentation to hand, being able to take notes in a meeting whilst recording the audio (Soundnote) through to using Numbers (Spreadsheet) to crack terminals in Fallout. Being able to stream video's from our NAS of all our DVDs and Blu Rays (Air Video) or using iPlayer works well too.

All in a package that is light and small and has huge amounts of battery life.

Re:wtf

[jimicus]

BTW, if Android tablets are dead, then the entire tablet market is also dead which may not be that far off. I'm not convinced the tablet thing isn't a fad that will wear off in 12-18 months. Tablets have been around for years yet have not found an actual purpose outside of niche applications.

They have, but not in the very slim, light form factor that things like the iPad enjoy. Mostly, they've been over-engineered laptops which are way too heavy to comfortably hold and use like a clipboard.

I don't deny it could easily wind up becoming a niche market, but I can see it being a bit odd among niche markets - I can easily see there being lots of niches into which they could fit.

Re:wtf

[Telvin_3d]

Not quite. Everyone else released a beta. Apple released a finished product. And they did it a year ahead of their first real competition's 'beta' products. And yes, while tablets are still more on the toy side of the product category that shouldn't be an excuse to release a half-assed product. The competition is releasing products that are neither ahead of the curve or polished. That's just sloppy and sad.

Re:wtf

[Carewolf]

Honestly the summary sounds more like a troll.

IPad sales numbers have not been impressive. They are decent, but not the revolution much of the hype expected. On top of that the criticism of Android tablets is that it doesn't do much the android phones doesn't... BUT the IPAD doesn't do much the iphones doesn't..

So, this story is mostly trolling. Android has one problem, and iOS has one really cool advantage over it: Battery life.. Well done Apple, but seriously, lay off the trolling.

Re:wtf

[Anonymous Coward]

IPad sales numbers have not been impressive.

Are you high? 14.8 million tablets in 8 months isn't impressive? For a product that entered the market as a first gen device. Really?

Most analysts put the 3-5 million as an optimistic prediction. You have no idea at all.

Re:wtf

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the same reason people switch to cable or satellite television. Stupid people buy into the notion that because there are more apps it's better. How many apps do you actually use? I thought so. How many channels do you actually watch? I thought so.

Let me tell you what's going to happen. Touchscreens will keep getting bigger and faster... wait for it... until it's size and power equal that of today's laptops. WOW! You sure were smart buying into the hype.

Re:wtf

[tehcyder]

Tablets have been around for years yet have not found an actual purpose outside of niche applications.

Their main purpose is to facilitate flexible, mobile one-handed web surfing, if you know what I mean, and I'm sure that you do.

Re:wtf

[tehcyder]

Android has one problem, and iOS has one really cool advantage over it: Battery life

No one I know with an iPhone gets much better battery life than my Android, and at least I can buy spare batteries to swap around.

Re:wtf

[BasilBrush]

BTW, if Android tablets are dead, then the entire tablet market is also dead which may not be that far off.

What kind of illogic is that? iPad is doing incredibly well.

Re:wtf

[BasilBrush]

IPad sales numbers have not been impressive.

You don't know what you're talking about. You're saying what you wished were true rather than what is true.

http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2011/01/19/apple-posts-record-profit-ipad-sales-surpass-projections

Re:wtf

[BasilBrush]

Which particular Android do you have?

Re:wtf

[rjstanford]

Oh, please. The iPhone 4 lasts for a solid day of heavy use, all most people need, and you can easily use a "boost" charger to juice it up mid-flight if you have to - something that's no bulkier than carrying around an additional battery, I might add. It also recharges amazingly quickly from wall outlets.

This isn't about a pissing contest. I'm sure that your phone is nice and meets your needs as well. But most people don't carry additional batteries (regardless of their phone brand), and the vast majority of the millions of iPhone users have no battery issues. Its not a big liberal-media-coverup, its just a boring fact.

Re:wtf

[jon3k]

Tablets have been around for years yet have not found an actual purpose outside of niche applications.

Two reasons for that, 1) they all ran Windows and required a stylus 2) fast, universal, wireless connectivity didn't exist like it does today. Apple sold 14.79 million by Dec 25th. I think we've moved beyond "niche applications".

Re:wtf

[jon3k]

I think people focus too much on the hardware. They say, "oh we've had tablets for years and they never caught on". We also had smartphones for years and they never caught on (massively, outside of the business world) - until Apple created software for them that was usable by anyone. The whole point of the iPad is that it just disappears, you forget it's even there. It is the minimum physical device require to use your applications. If Apple taught us anything it's that the hardware is a very small part of the equation to a successful tablet.

Re:wtf

[jon3k]

I'm sorry ... what? 15 million units in one year isn't impressive? You realize the iPad is now the fastest selling consumer electronic device in HISTORY. Outselling the everything from the iPhone to DVD players?

Re:wtf

[CharlyFoxtrot]

There was a great article recently comparing Apple today with the Sony of last century that quoted Sony founder Ibuka (about releasing a color tv before the technology was ready) saying :

"And Ibuka refused, saying, 'No, we will only do great products. We will only do high quality goods. We will only do breakthrough technology.'"

An attitude unfortunately mostly absent in today's tech industry.

Re:wtf

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Meet The iPad Developers - Message To Mac Customers : "You disappoint us".

Re:wtf

[Meski]

Well, Apple had the balls to call what they had released a finished product. If you can show me an internet that doesn't point to various flaws that the iPad has, then I'll show you a remarkably filtered search query.

Re:wtf

[4phun]

IPad sales numbers have not been impressive.

Are you high? 14.8 million tablets in 8 months isn't impressive? For a product that entered the market as a first gen device. Really?

Most analysts put the 3-5 million as an optimistic prediction. You have no idea at all.

IPad sales are limited by how many can actually be built each week. Once that bottle neck is removed then we will see explosive sales.

No need to weep for Samsung and their failed Android tablet. Samsung's profits also include the fact they manufacture more than half the components used in the iPad.

You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[mjwx]

I don't think they were released too soon. They were the teething stage of tablets, the infancy where mistakes could be made. Thanks to this Google, Motorola and others have learned valuable lessons. Some of the previous Android tablets are hardly failures. Dell's Streak turned a profit, Samsung's Galaxy Tab sold well with a small return rate not to mention the Archos products which others have pointed out.

Basically the demand was there, proven by the 22% of tablets sold that were not made by Apple. So now armed with this knowledge, the multitude of manufacturers can create a truly competitive tablet market.

Personally I'm still not convinced tablets aren't a fad, much like an overpriced Tamigotchi or flares.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Cinder6]

If you can't match the quality of a competitor that launched eight months before you, then you probably rushed the thing. (Yes, it is an oversimplification, but it's also hard to excuse a latecomer that offers little to recommend it over the Other Guy's first-generation product.)

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[beelsebob]

Samsung's Galaxy Tab sold well with a small return rate

16%? A small return rate? o.O. Compare this to other devices in the same sector having a 2% return rate. No, I don't think this is a small return rate at all.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Duncan Booth]

Samsung themselves say the return rate is below 2%. I guess it depends whether you believe Samsung who presumably have the figures but may be biased or some random bunch of Wall Street Analysts who have no figures and may or may not have a hidden agenda.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[ghrom]

You may be right saying that those companies turned a profit - but the customers were screwed. Or rather, made a bad decision, IMNSHO. How many of those 5 tablets will get an OS upgrade to 3.0? My bet is on 20% but I may have to eat that when it doubles to 40% :P How many will get a supported upgrade to 4.0 in just over a year from now? None.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[mjwx]

If you can't match the quality of a competitor that launched eight months before you

When you consider that competitor was designed to crawl and never walk then that changes things.

The existing Android 2.2 tablets are orders of magnitude more complex than the Ipad. Sorry but the two just aren't compatible in terms of functionality. The tablets built out of old technology like the Ipad such as the Dell Streak and Galaxy Tab performed quite well. Amazing how good things can be when you lower the bar enough.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[mjwx]

Compare this to other devices in the same sector having a 2% return rate.

You were saying,

It's best to check your sources, rather than believing every rumour on the internet.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[joh]

Both the 2% and the 16% may be correct. Samsung could be relating the actual returns to devices they have sold into the distribution channels (but many of which are not yet in the hands of any customers), while the 16% returns are from those devices actually sold to actual users.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[rolfwind]

Personally I'm still not convinced tablets aren't a fad, much like an overpriced Tamigotchi or flares.

From my experience, tablets replaced netbooks. Netbooks were all the rage 2 years ago, and it started what, in 2007? Now they are hardly mentioned anymore. They first came in the 7" screen size and quickly moved up, and for all intents and purposes quickly became your average 12" notebook albeit thinner and with a low-end CPU. My walmart used to have 3 on display a year and a half ago, and since thing chiseled it down to one. They replaced that space with iPads.

I don't think these type of tablets are fads. It's just a realization you don't always need a keyboard, a physical one at least. When I really want to type, I'm on my desktop with an ergonomic keyboard. It also depends what you're doing with it - a person with a budget for only one computing device probably will take a notebook that can do a little bit of everything. After that, it's all up to your needs. Something will come along eventually that merges these functions in something even more convenient, but that form factor could be at least a decade or two away (I'm thinking disposable sheets with printed on screens that can be folded, etc).

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[bemymonkey]

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/03/samsung-refutes-high-galaxy-tab-returns-says-rate-is-below-2-p/

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Cinder6]

Android may be more complex, but the summary specifically mentions hardware, which has nothing to do with what OS is running. You make a good point about where you set the bar, but it also raises the question: Which is more important--quality and lower-tech or bug-ridden and bleeding edge? There's no real answer to this, as it's a matter of perspective.

I used to revel in the latter category ("Yeah, there's bugs, but I'm using stuff other guys won't see for months, or maybe even YEARS"), but now I'm closer to the middle. I don't want to be hopelessly obsolete, but I still expect my stuff to work well most of the time, and that includes having quality hardware. It seems like many (certainly not all) Android-based manufacturers neglect the hardware side of things, which is puzzling.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[rolfwind]

The existing Android 2.2 tablets are orders of magnitude more complex than the Ipad. Sorry but the two just aren't compatible in terms of functionality.

Cite some specific examples how, many of us aren't following the releases that closely.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[joh]

Personally I'm still not convinced tablets aren't a fad, much like an overpriced Tamigotchi or flares.

Judging from the earnest interest I experience from real (non-technophile) people, I'd say no. People are just yearning to turn their backs toward "computers". PCs still are glorified office machinery and except for work everyone hates them. The time has come for "computers" turning into mature appliance-like things for casual use you don't have to waste a single thought on before or after using them.

And Google should be very careful not to turn Android into another highly complex and confusing OS with an desktop-like interface. This is exactly what most people are running away from. They want something plain, pretty and "magic". There's only a very small part of the population wanting widgets and full customization abilities. For *these* users tablets may well be a fad anyway.

Well, we will see.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[MrDoh!]

Very much so. It's amazing to see what a terrible job is being made, when really, there isn't a mad pressure on to come out with something that quickly.
We saw Android Tablets before the iPad was even officially announced, and a year and a half later, we're still seeing those same lousy specs being produced.
And when someone /does/ get something close to a decent competitor to the iPad, they either disable half the functionality in a market (no voice calling on the Galaxy Tab), or throw a bunch of carrier specific nonsense on (Verizon/AT&T), or disable simple features like sideloading apps/hotspot functionality.
Really looks like they're trying hard to fail.

They're pushing the Android Tablets with comms functionality when it appears /most/ customers would be happy with wireless and stock Android. Now, considering they're getting the fees for 2 years, how they justify a HIGHER cost than without that cost is... mad.

I keep waiting for a decent Android Tablet, only to be disappointed by /someone/ (and yeah, the telco's point to the hardware supplier, and the hardware suppliers point to the telcos. Android's getting out there because Google's backing off, but they really need to start throwing their weight around, perhaps that 'Approved by Google' stamp for stock Android?

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Telvin_3d]

The existing Android 2.2 tablets are orders of magnitude more complex than the Ipad. Sorry but the two just aren't compatible in terms of functionality.

Yeah, one works out of the box. The other needs to hit the ROM sites every couple months after the manufacturers get bored. I agree, not very comparable at all.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[dafing]

We're waiting :-)

The problems with the Android tablets, you cant call them EARLY...when they were basically cancelled and restarted after the iPad was announced, which would have TROUNCED the intended designs even further....

seems to have been the hardware itself. They were all cheap ass plastic, the screens were TERRIBLE, darker, far lower resolution, viewing angles, overall quality...

The OS used may not have been intended for a tablet formfactor, thats fixable through a free update though...you know, when it comes out? Oh wait, the companies cant be bothered giving you future updates for your top of the line device :-)

The hardware sucked, lets face it. Having a camera or two did NOT make it "better" than the iPad.

I'm looking forward to seeing the competition for the iPad 2. As consumers, we win in the end.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[hairyfish]

Personally I'm still not convinced tablets aren't a fad, much like an overpriced Tamigotchi or flares.

I'm with you. I've had an iPad since they were released (work toy). I hardly ever use it, and have actually given it to someone else who now also never uses it. The cycle is the same. The "wow that's cool" lasts about a day or two at most, then there's the "I'm sure I can find a use for it" for maybe a few more weeks, to "ipad who?" all within the first month. I'm sure there's people out there that have the energy to keep playing with them, but for me (and everyone I've observed), tablets are just a casual use gimmick. The hype curve might last another year or two, then they'll disappear back into the niche market where they belong.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[erroneus]

I'm not convinced either. So far, it seems to be little more than a communications and reading toy for use on a bus, train or in a coffee shop. They look awesome and I want one too... the draw is almost irresistible, but then I ask myself the important question: What would I use this for? After considering it, I would use it for pretty much the same thing I use my little Alienware M11xR2... only with more frustration due to lack of speed, power, keyboard, flexibility, versatility. Tablets are pretty. I like pretty but not that much and not when it seems to be its only redeeming factor.

I have an android phone and am pretty happy with it. It took some getting used to, but once I did I was okay with it. Still not actually comfortable with the touch screen keyboard -- I think it's a waste of screen space -- but if I were to buy another, I will keep that in mind.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[beelsebob]

As was pointed out above, there's a difference between the number being returned to the manufacturer as faulty, and the number being returned to the shop as unwanted.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[somersault]

Android-based manufacturers neglect the hardware side of things, which is puzzling.

Not that puzzling. Most of them are just out to make a quick buck by jumping on the iPad hype. They get the software side very cheaply (probably free if they don't add the Android market?), they do the hardware cheap, they sell at a 1/4 of the price of the iPad so that people feel they're getting a good deal, but in reality it's not that great an idea.

I did buy a cheap tablet to test out Android, it's annoying that I can't get an update to even 1.6 for it because it would work okay as an eBook reader. Happy overall that I got it though, as I was just wanting to test out Android, and it led me to buy a Dell Streak, which is a great device. It has a decent sized screen for viewing videos and browsing, yet can still fit in your jeans' side pockets.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[somersault]

Really looks like they're trying hard to fail.

Maybe they are, from the telco side at least. They probably are freaked out by the "open" nature because it's easier for people to get around any stupid restrictions they put in place, ie trying to disable tethering.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[node 3]

I don't think they were released too soon. They were the teething stage of tablets, the infancy where mistakes could be made. Thanks to this Google, Motorola and others have learned valuable lessons.

Yet somehow Apple managed to clean house in the market on their first try. I doubt anyone learned any lessons other than not to run a desktop OS on the tablet. Hell, they even had the iPad itself to look at for inspiration, and still failed to come out with a compelling alternative.

Some of the previous Android tablets are hardly failures. Dell's Streak turned a profit, Samsung's Galaxy Tab sold well with a small return rate not to mention the Archos products which others have pointed out.

What? "Turned a profit" is notable praise? Archos a successful tablet maker? Galaxy Tab sold well? With a small return rate? WTF?

On the Tab specifically, they shipped 2 million, but actually sold very few. Of the 2 million, their return rate may very well have been around 2%, but the actual return rate for Tabs people bought was 16%. That puts the number actually sold more like a quarter of a million, not 2 million.

Basically the demand was there, proven by the 22% of tablets sold that were not made by Apple. So now armed with this knowledge, the multitude of manufacturers can create a truly competitive tablet market.

22% was based on the deliberately misleading numbers put forth by Samsung. And even with those completely false numbers, that puts Apple at 78% (and much higher with the actual numbers).

Personally I'm still not convinced tablets aren't a fad, much like an overpriced Tamigotchi or flares.

Why would they be a fad? Because people bought too many iPads and not enough Android tablets?

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[node 3]

Um, yeah. The iPad is so awful it only took over the entire market, but those "more powerful" Android tablets only garnered a small percentage.

For example, the Streak and Galaxy Tab you mentioned doing so well? The iPad outsold them both more than ten times over. Combined.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[drinkypoo]

Not that I think they are the ultimate in hardware, but most companies never match the quality of Apple hardware. And I say this as a known mac hater. A lot of hardware has gone through my hands and little of it has been of such high build quality as the mac stuff (with some notable exceptions... any candy-colored iWhatever can FOAD)

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[ducomputergeek]

Thing is for Apple, it's not about having the latest and greatest features it's about making sure the features that you do have work and work well. That is why a vast number of consumers are buying their products even when they are more expensive.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Anonymous Coward]

I can do far more on my netbook than any of those pads. Touch typing on a touch screen keyboard is crap because you cannot feel where your fingers are. When you start plugging keyboards into those things then you are simply turning it into a netbook. The ideal portable computer is a netbook with a touch screen and a hardware keyboard.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Shimbo]

Yet somehow Apple managed to clean house in the market on their first try.

Well, second try. Apple Newton?

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Anonymous Coward]

No, because people with all the taste and technological expertise of a duvet bought ipads. People very much like you.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[oodaloop]

Strictly and literally speaking, one does NOT have to learn to crawl before one learns to walk. In the ancestral environment (and in some places today), mothers did not put their babies on the dirty, dangerous ground where babies are likely to put dirty and potentially dangerous bugs in their mouths. Once their legs developed, they could walk. Some babies today do not crawl first, but go straight from sitting to walking. Crawling, it seems, is an ad hoc non-natural form of locomotion some babies figure out while they wait for their legs to develop so they can walk. Seems pedantic, but it calls into question the metaphor of "having to learn to crawl before you can walk."

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[crossword.bob]

I can do far more on my netbook than any of those pads. Touch typing on a touch screen keyboard is crap because you cannot feel where your fingers are.

I don't find that to be a problem - probably in part because the keyboard and screen being a single unit means I can use my peripheral vision to guide me.

When you start plugging keyboards into those things then you are simply turning it into a netbook. The ideal portable computer is a netbook with a touch screen and a hardware keyboard.

I do own a wireless keyboard for my iPad, which I use mainly when running SSH sessions to my home server (Ubuntu) - mainly for the sake of maximising display area. But the distinction is that it's an optional keyboard; it stays at home, and only gets used for certain tasks. The rest of the time, it stays out the way. I don't want to tell you there's anything wrong with preferring a netbook, since it's entirely subjective, but for me the 4-way orientability of a tablet is an important feature that a netbook simply cannot realistically provide.

The Dell duo looks interesting, along with other convertible tablet/netbook-stylee devices, but of course will live or die on dimensions and weight.

What I really don't get are people who complain that the 4:3 ratio of the iPad is a problem for watching movies; what's wrong with black bars? I've seen claims that the 16:9 ratio of the Galaxy Tab makes it better for movies than the iPad; given that both play 16:9 movies at 1024x600, how is a screen 6" wide better than one 8" wide?

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Fnkmaster]

Or a tablet with a case/conversion feature that lets you easily use a physical keyboard when you need it, but keep it as a tablet when you want maximum portability.

For $20 you can get a case for the Viewsonic G Tablet with a built in USB keyboard that allows your $350-$400 tablet function as a netbook too. Works well for many of us to get more done with our G Tablets.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Anonymous Coward]

"On the Tab specifically, they shipped 2 million, but actually sold very few. Of the 2 million, their return rate may very well have been around 2%, but the actual return rate for Tabs people bought was 16%. That puts the number actually sold more like a quarter of a million, not 2 million."

You fail at statistics forever. HTF does the return rate determine the actual sales?

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[tepples]

They're pushing the Android Tablets with comms functionality when it appears /most/ customers would be happy with wireless and stock Android.

By "wireless" did you mean WLAN or 3G? Because Google has had a policy: no 3G, no Market.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[multipartmixed]

That's an interesting conjecture -- Newton as tablet.

It *does* fit a very similar market-niche. It struck more as a failed PDA -- but I definitely buy the tablet-prototype hypothesis.

In fact, Tablet XP featured voice and hand-writing recognition as major input modes. And my Tablet XP tablet was ridiculously unwieldy, used a stylus, and had miserable battery life.

Hm, maybe Tablet XP was trying to copy Newton? :)

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Anonymous Coward]

Android tablets are struggling to catch up because Apple had a much, much greater lead time than just eight months. When Steve announced the original iPhone, he said "I've been waiting two and a half years for this day". The iPhone was pre-dated by the earliest iPad prototype, the Safari Pad. Given that the iPad launched three years after the original iPhone, Apple had at least 5.5 years of R&D focused on making the iPad into a monumental success, which it undoubtedly has been. Meanwhile, when the iPad was announced, Android was still trying to catch up with the iPhone 1.0, launched three years earlier. After ten months of frantic development, Google finally has a version that looks like it will offer a decent tablet experience, but the only hardware that's been announced to run it is expensive as hell and apparently tied to a cell plan even if you only want WiFi. And of course, it will be competing with the iPad 2 and the newly price-slashed iPad 1. Good luck with that, guys.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[drinkypoo]

They're all tablets, from PDAs up to slates.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[BasilBrush]

The existing Android 2.2 tablets are orders of magnitude more complex than the Ipad.

You say that as if it's a good thing.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[commodore6502]

I don't know why, but lesser-powered devices often outsell higher-powered devices. IBM's PC and AT outsold the Mac (by about 20 times) and Amiga (about double) during the Eighties, even though it only had 4 colors and went "beep" instead of producing music.

With just one exception, the #1 gaming console was Not the most-advanced in graphics or sound - Atari VCS, Nintendo ES, PS1, PS2, Wii were all inferior to the competition. (The 16-bit SNES was more-or-less equal to the 68000 Genesis.)

So it does not surprise me one bit that the iPad, although less capable, is still the #1 seller in its genre.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[blackchiney]

Interesting, I did not know that. My son was many things: a wiggler, a rider, a stander, and a walker, but he never crawled. And it wasn't because our floors were dirty. They were 150 year old wooden floors. They've seen every different type of flooring trend in that time (tiles, linoleum, carpet, etc) and are probably soaked in chemicals. Chemicals that I prefer he has as little contact as possible with.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Merk42]

Galaxy Tab 2 Million SHIPPED (sales numbers are debatable, but for the sake of your argument lets say they sold every one) Apple iPad 7 Million SOLD

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. That's not why people buy them. People buy Apple products because Apple is the king of marketing right now. There's a world of people out there who don't realize that Android even exists -- they think that the iPhone and iPad are their only options. Of course, then there's the enormous group that buys Apple products simply because they're douchebag hipsters who value brand name and aesthetics over anything else. My Linux Mint laptop beats the crap out of my MacBook (work issued). My HTC Evo beats the shit out of the iPhone. My B&N Nook Color has the potential to beat the iPad *if* B&N actually gets on the whole tablet thing -- at $250 it's a really good device, especially compared to a $600 iPad.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[rjstanford]

And Google should be very careful not to turn Android into another highly complex and confusing OS with an desktop-like interface. This is exactly what most people are running away from. They want something plain, pretty and "magic". There's only a very small part of the population wanting widgets and full customization abilities. For *these* users tablets may well be a fad anyway.

Well, we will see.

That's really what Apple "got" from day one, that their competitors are still working towards. Whether its as simple as making sure that scrolling and panning "just works" instead of "mostly works" on a mobile device, or making sure that playing a DVD just happens on a Windows/OSX device, the Apple user experience really is a bit nicer. Its nothing that their competitors don't do, but ....

There was a recent story about the new Streak 7. While the reviewer was quoting gigahertz numbers you could actually see the device's screen lagging ~1/3 of a second behind his finger. I'm sure that its processor has great specs, but figuring out that nobody (for most values of body) gives a rat's ass about the numbers while everybody (same proviso) cares about responsiveness is a Big Deal.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Anonymous Coward]

If the more complex things are good things like USB, HDMI, camera etc. then it is a good thing

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[MightyYar]

LOL, you are arguing semantics. The iPad is in a new class of products - and whatever you guys call that class of products, that is what we are talking about here :)

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a rumor, it's a reputable study by ITG, and it's fairly accurate, if limited. While the study is comparing returns to sales rates for Verizon in the U.S., Samsung is likely comparing returns to shipment rates. They could have higher returns at Verizon, and/or simply be selling many fewer than they care to admit.

Here's a good analysis of the 'controversy':

http://www.bgr.com/2011/02/01/itg-samsung-galaxy-tab-return-rate-is-15-in-the-u-s-ipad-only-2

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[MightyYar]

returns_per_shipped / returns_per_sold = 2% / 16% = 1/8

since returns is a constant it cancels and you get shipped/sold = 1/8.

since they shipped 2 million, sold = 2 million / 8 = 0.25 million

I don't know where he got his numbers, but his math is solid. We have no evidence of his "statistics".

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[dfghjk]

"PCs still are glorified office machinery and except for work everyone hates them."

What?

"And Google should be very careful not to turn Android into another highly complex and confusing OS with an desktop-like interface. This is exactly what most people are running away from."

What?

"They want something plain, pretty and "magic"."

Bought into the Apple rhetoric, did you?

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[gad_zuki!]

and McDonalds outsells the 5-star restaurants I like to go to.

I really hate this appeal to the masses. Why we believe that the lowest common denominator's buying habits should dictate what good tech is, is beyond me.

Funny, Apple fans used to make this argument, but now that they top sales they appeal to the everyman argument.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[BlueBoxSW.com]

The best thing Google did marketing-wise was not try to put the Google stamp on Android.

In many other cases they try to work the brand in where it doesn't belong, and every time they fail they dilute it a little more (I'm looking at you, GoogleTV).

Putting a stamp on it doesn't make it better. Putting better people on it with better research of the market makes it better.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[zaq1xsw2cde9]

Yes, you can do far more on other devices, but a lot of people will never do more, so it is not necessary. There are a lot of applications where a finger touch screen simply works better than a keyboard. Given a little bit of Voice-to-Text a lot of people would hardly ever need a keyboard.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[alcmaeon]

"Which is more important--quality and lower-tech or bug-ridden and bleeding edge? There's no real answer to this, as it's a matter of perspective."

You are partly right. There actually is an answer to this which is born of the only perspective that matters in the marketplace--the customer. Clearly, the number of customers who want "bug-ridden and bleeding edge" is far smaller than the number who want "quality and lower-tech."

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[JoeytheSquid]

I've been through two Android tablets so far and while I can see the appeal of the tablet form factor as a casual web browsing environment, there really isn't much of a draw for technical users. This is likely why so many people in the know keep claiming that tablets are fads. That said, most of the people I know with iPads are real consumers not technophiles. And they absolutely love their iPads because they rely on them as a primary method of computing.

In that respect, I think Android's got it all wrong. The honeycomb UI may be more advanced than anything found in iOS but it totally misses the point. Real end users don't want advanced and complicated. They can use a laptop for that. They want something simple and easy to use. And for that reason I think Apple will dominate the tablet market for some time.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[SuperKendall]

"And Google should be very careful not to turn Android into another highly complex and confusing OS with an desktop-like interface. This is exactly what most people are running away from."

What?

He's probably talking about things like including a menu bar in Honeycomb. That seems like a mistake to me.

"They want something plain, pretty and "magic"."

Bought into the Apple rhetoric, did you?

Yes, along with seven million+ other people.

The problem currently is that few people are "buying into" the Android rhetoric.

And based on upcoming tablets I'm not sure how many will. Android has a lot easier time competing in the smartphone world. There is generally no subsidy to cheapen Android tablets (there are a few exceptions but they are still pretty expensive).

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[alcmaeon]

The existing Android 2.2 tablets are orders of magnitude more complex than the Ipad.

Spoken like that guy who needs to cut off a 1/2" dowel rod and pulls out the saw horses, circular saw, extension cords, clamps and half a dozen other items in order to do it.

I'm more the handsaw on the knee kind of guy--the simplest tool that will get the job done.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[yacc143]

Yet somehow Apple managed to clean house in the market on their first try. I doubt anyone learned any lessons other than not to run a desktop OS on the tablet. Hell, they even had the iPad itself to look at for inspiration, and still failed to come out with a compelling alternative.

Hardly. Apple release a sized up iPhone, that is not very esthetic (but that's on the eyes of beholder, I'm just going by the spontaneous reaction of my 10yrs old daughter, ugly sized up iPhone, when she saw it the first time), with a nonfunctional OS (The stupid thing was single tasking at the UI level, that's so 1980s), non ergonomic (the iPad is rather heavy for it's puny functionality), fixed battery which makes extending the runtime outside a PITA, ...

No Apple just managed to ride it through on their brand, but will get them only to some point.

What? "Turned a profit" is notable praise? Archos a successful tablet maker? Galaxy Tab sold well? With a small return rate? WTF?

Well, numbers are very suspect here, Apple does not release numbers, nobody really does. Fact is when I walked through a local mall before christmas, basically every relevant shop had iPads in stock and advertised them. My Archos, my wife had to hunt down on Amazon, and the delivery Amazon got was gone in less than 24 hours. All local shops listed them out of stock, will be replenished in 4-6 weeks.

Now that proves nothing, but it suggests that vendors overestimated demand for the iPad, and underestimated the demand for Archos tablets.

22% was based on the deliberately misleading numbers put forth by Samsung. And even with those completely false numbers, that puts Apple at 78% (and much higher with the actual numbers).

So where do your reliable numbers for shipped and sold iPads come from? I mean, NOBODY publishes them. Apple does not even split out the bilance numbers by unit. So WHERE do you get these reliable numbers? My observation, outside the US, which is a special case anyway, having lived in the communication stone age for a long time, the iPad has been quite in stock

Why would they be a fad? Because people bought too many iPads and not enough Android tablets?

Actually, I don't think it will be a fad, it's more or less a question of what dimension will prove out to be most practicable. I've got at home (not for me, but if I add up all family members), tablets/mobiles ranging from 10.1"-3.5" displays, running Android, Maemo, iOS, and I have to admit that the 10" display is nicer for reading than my 3.5" Nokia. OTOH, it's slightly less portable, and for long stays outside, you need some case to carry it, you cannot put it into your jacket. Furthermore, I personally consider any onscreen keyboard a very inferior alternative to a real keyboard.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[H0p313ss]

With the camera kit you can plug a USB keyboard into the iPad. (Bluetooth is available.)

What's the story with Android tablets? I know bluetooth worked with the early Android devices...

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Merk42]

Because if it doesn't appeal to the masses it won't sell (doesn't even have to be #1). If it doesn't sell, then there are less likely to be people developing for it. If there aren't many people developing for it, then what's the point of the product?

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[H0p313ss]

(Bluetooth is available.)

I meant Bluetooth is ALSO available.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Bigbutt]

I actually enjoy mine and use it all day. I keep up on forums (like Slashdot) or read when I'm out and about with my wife (she's shopping, I'm reading an ebook). I'm also a tabletop gamer and use it a lot for reading up on game rules I have on PDF. I can even log in to my remote server and use pine to read my e-mail :)

[John]

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[arkane1234]

Let me translate that double negative... your convinced tablets are a fad, much like overpriced Tamigatchi or flares.

Sooooo... something that is simpler to use because of it's size reduction and technological variance, is a fad?
You are so new lol Next thing you'll say is the internet is a fad and information will stay on Fidonet like god intended.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[arkane1234]

Which is why there are bluetooth keyboards. If you know you'll be typing, bring your (foldable) bluetooth keyboard along. Otherwise, you have yourself a slate. (why they're called tablets is beyond me)

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[arkane1234]

Or people programming objective-c, and writing apps for it.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[hey!]

The linking of tablets with comm functionality is just the continuation of what we saw from the dying days of the PDA era, when PDAs morphed into smartphones. What had been proven a useful category of devices was no longer profitable to sell and support, because of falling prices. Nobody wanted to be in the business of selling $50 PDAs, so PDAs became smartphones. Selling through cell carriers meant that nobody really knew the price of anything.

The general crumminess of what's available in the Android tablet market is a product of another thing we saw in the demise of the PDA era: risk aversion. That risk aversion leads to two inconsistent strategies: trying to be all things to all people, and excessive conservatism. This led to the suckage that was PocketPC (later rebranded Windows Mobile), the very name embodying the hopelessly inconsistent promise of doing everything a PC does, just like a PC does, but in a pocket form factor.

Everyone knew tablets were coming, and of course nobody builds anything themselves anymore, so it doesn't take much investment or imagination to put an open source platform like Android on commodity tablet hardware in an attempt to "catch the wave." That might have worked in the early PC era, but I don't think it works in the current era, simply because that commodity hardware and software make it so easy for a competitor to conjure itself out of nothing. There is no time to get entrenched; no grace period in which to enjoy higher than normal profits.

I would argue that there are no more such hardware waves to catch, although that doesn't stop people from trying. What you have to do is *define* the wave. That takes a willingness to make investments and to take risks.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[gumbi west]

They said on their most recent call that the 2 million number was sales to distributors and have not had to back fill at all. here. The exact quote is “Even though sell-out wasn’t as fast as we expected, we still believe sell-out was quite OK.” (sell-in is the retail term for filling the channels, sell-out is when a person buys it off the shelf). "OK" is corporate speak for "crashed and burned, but we aren't going public with pulling the plug just yet."

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[ColdWetDog]

But the numbers speak for themselves. Even if half of them are tossed in a corner (like how many PCs / laptops / exercise machines we've seen at people's houses), the other half (of a large number) are using them. A decent uptake for a technology that has been canned and panned for literally decades.

The current iPad (and smart phones / Androids of various flavors) are vastly more powerful than anything most of us have used for the majority of our careers. And 'we' did 'work' on those underpowered puppies.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Bill_the_Engineer]

There is a difference between setting the pace, and playing catch up.

Apple created a marketable low powered tablet based personal data appliance, and Android is in the catch up phase (or quite literally the me too phase). Manufacturers are introducing Android based tablets NOW, even though there are a numerous rough edges, because the longer they stay on the side lines the more market share they cede to Apple. Eventually Android will reach parity with iOS in features AND end user experience.

I experienced this before in the early 80's. Apple, DRI, Atari, and Commodore were selling home computers with a graphical user interface. Another software manufacture need to quickly jump on the GUI bandwagon, and came up with 2 premature versions of their new flagship operating system before they finally got it close to usable in version 3. They sacrificed any perception the general public had about the quality of their software, in a desperate effort to stay relevant. It worked out well for them. They survived to live another day, the public still questions the quality of their products, yet they remained the 800 Lbs gorilla of software.

I experienced this again in the 90's when Mosaic, and then Netscape came out with a web browser. This same software company was slow to recognize the marketing potential of the early internet. Again new technology threaten their well being and they rushed their version of a web browser out the door to stay relevant. Again the quality was poor, but since everybody had a copy already on their computer they used it.

Now today we see that the iPad consuming a large share of the personal computing device market. Now two software companies were caught off guard and rushing premature versions of their products to market in order to stay relevant. This is just how things are done...

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[node 3]

I see, I didn't realize the Android bar was set so low. Maybe you should look into your own motives before calling others "fanbois" and using crude metaphors. Seems like everything you said about Apple customers could just as well apply to you. More aptly, in fact, since at least the Apple customers backed a winning product.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[node 3]

Yeah, sorry that people can't be such fantastically nerdy as you are, and instead are just regular people who prefer their technology to cater to them, not the other way around.

Apple sees technology and says, "ok, that's a good start. Now, how do we make this work for people?". Everyone else sees technology and says, "great, let's slap a sticker on it and we're good to go".

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[node 3]

Yet somehow Apple managed to clean house in the market on their first try.

Well, second try. Apple Newton?

Newton wasn't an attempt at a tablet, it was an attempt at a PDA, and they cleaned house there, too. It was canceled not out of failure, but out of a refocusing of Apple after the NeXT acquisition.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[node 3]

I don't know where he got his numbers, but his math is solid. We have no evidence of his "statistics".

An analyst group that monitored stores reported a 16% return rate. Samsung reported 2%.

(examples: 16% and 2%, or just google "galaxy tab return rate" and you'll see headlines of 16% and 2%)

Given Samsung previously giving numbers "shipped", not sold to consumers, and tracking stores is tracking actual sales to consumers, it makes sense to assume Samsung is referring to returns from the 2 million, and the other number is returns from those sold. The rest is simple algebra as you mentioned.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Anonymous Coward]

Tablets are nothing but overpriced toys that cost way more than a netbook and do less. The people that buy these are all sheeple and dumb and pay for old technology in a shiny new case, and this will never catch on...

Wait, an Android tablet?

OMFG this is the greatest thing ever and I must have one right now DAMN THE COST open source freeeeeedom!!!!!

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[thesandtiger]

Exactly - Apple builds generally solid kit, so they can command a premium price for (usually) lesser specs which lets them make sure the quality control is (mostly) there because they have a lot more room in the margins.

That said, I do think that some of the HTC stuff I've played with is pretty solid. I love my Evo now that I got a higher capacity battery - it's a pretty decent machine and has essentially replaced my netbook.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[node 3]

Hardly. Apple release a sized up iPhone

Apple actually started work on the iPad long before the iPhone. Once the project got to a certain point, they realized it would make for a great phone. They continued work and finished the iPad later. So, if anything, the iPhone is a scaled down iPad.

that is not very esthetic (but that's on the eyes of beholder, I'm just going by the spontaneous reaction of my 10yrs old daughter, ugly sized up iPhone, when she saw it the first time)

Do you get most of your technical opinions from 10 year olds?

with a nonfunctional OS (The stupid thing was single tasking at the UI level, that's so 1980s)

OMG! They released it with one set of features, and added more features afterwards!

non ergonomic (the iPad is rather heavy for it's puny functionality)

I didn't realize there was a weight to functionality ratio to consider.

fixed battery which makes extending the runtime outside a PITA

Yeah, because 9 hours is so anemic.

No Apple just managed to ride it through on their brand, but will get them only to some point.

Yeah, they managed to "ride through" from zero percent to well over three quarters of a market in less than a year. I'm sure that happens all the time.

What? "Turned a profit" is notable praise? Archos a successful tablet maker? Galaxy Tab sold well? With a small return rate? WTF?

Well, numbers are very suspect here, Apple does not release numbers

Yes, they do. Every quarter, in fact.

nobody really does.

I guess Samsung didn't say they sold 2 million Tabs? Then later reiterate that they only shipped 2 million? I suppose you're right that they didn't state how many they actually sold to consumers, so there's that.

Fact is when I walked through a local mall before christmas, basically every relevant shop had iPads in stock and advertised them.

I see, so you asked them if they had iPads in stock? And whether they ever ran low or sold out? Apple was unable to keep up with demand for the iPad. They just managed their retail strategy so well that they minimized the frustration of going into a store and finding it sold out. They did this, in part, by limiting the number of stores it was available in.

My Archos, my wife had to hunt down on Amazon, and the delivery Amazon got was gone in less than 24 hours. All local shops listed them out of stock, will be replenished in 4-6 weeks. Now that proves nothing, but it suggests that vendors overestimated demand for the iPad, and underestimated the demand for Archos tablets.

No, it suggests you do not understand how retail works. The iPad is a guaranteed high-volume item. The Archos is a risky product to stock. Retailers would have gladly overstocked the iPad if they could, because they knew they would sell any left overs. With all non-Apple tablets, they would want to keep inventory deliberately low, because the risk of being stuck with unsold and undesired inventory is much higher.

So where do your reliable numbers for shipped and sold iPads come from? I mean, NOBODY publishes them.

Apple does.

Apple does not even split out the bilance numbers by unit.

Wait, you just said "NOBODY publishes them". Now you say Apple does, but doesn't split out by unit?

So WHERE do you get these reliable numbers? My observation, outside the US, which is a special case anyway, having lived in the communication stone age for a long time, the iPad has been quite in stock

Inventory does not last long. That Apple can generally keep some stores stocked shows that they have an efficient retail model. But there were plenty of stor

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[node 3]

The iPad is more powerful than any other tablet on the market, if you are a normal person. Power isn't "what the hardware can do", it's "what the user can do".

You may not be surprised, but you are not surprised for the wrong reason. Your logic is rather odd. Unless you care to clarify, it implies a causal relationship between "power" and sales, and a negative one at that.

If you look at every category you listed, two things show up as far more prominent than "power". Price and software. Also, with regards to the PC, there's business vs consumers, but it doesn't really apply to the rest of the list.

So the real question you should be asking isn't whether the iPad is the most powerful device or not, but whether the price is too high and whether there is enough software for it, if you want to look at specific indicators.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[node 3]

McDonald's outsells five star restaurants because five star restaurants are expensive, and take time and effort. The iPad is neither. In fact, it's cheaper than any of its real competitors, and it's easier than all of its competitors. It's like they have all of the benefits of McDonald's, combined with the benefits of a five star restaurant. Just imagine how well a restaurant chain would do if they could do that.

Now ponder why Apple has done so well with their iPods, iPhones and now iPads. It's for this very reason.

Android is the McDonald's in your analogy, but a more expensive, less appealing McDonald's. Unless you are a special kind of geek.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[node 3]

Cheers, nothing like some real data so we can make a fair comparison - and what you've given us is nothing like real data. You're a rabid apple fanboy and one of the worst to troll this website - piss off.

Nothing like an actual argument so there's something to discuss, my little AC friend. Apple went from zero percent market share in March 2010, to *way* over 75% market share in December 2010, and that counts the whole year, of which they completely missed out on a third of it, and also includes falsely inflated numbers of the Samsung Galaxy Tab (2 million claimed by Samsung, but more likely to be around 250k).

These are facts, and I've even included the least accurate and most anti-iPad numbers, and they still make the iPad look wildly successful.

Sorry if the facts sound like simple fanboyism to you, but if that's the case, you must ask yourself who is the actual fanboy here? You'd think it would be the one whose argument is not backed by facts, but maybe for you it's just "anyone who disagrees with my opinion"?

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Anonymous Coward]

All APL did was plop their handheld OS onto a bigger screen (and changed MAX_ICONS PER ROW from 4 to 5) and called it a day, just like all the other manufacturers did out there with Android or any other OS really. /sarcasm Selling that many has nothing to do with people out there who think APL is fashionable or the in-thing? Sure, some Android tablets came without the Market, and that's probably what killed them.

If you ask ANYONE to pay $500 for a 1GHz, 256MB RAM, 10" touchscreen, no camera, just wifi on a netbook is laughable, but some people just want to throw their money away.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Antisyzygy]

Idk about the everyman argument's validity as only a small percentage of the population even owns a tablet. It seems to me you Apple fan boy's pretty much use any absurd or fallacious argument they can to justify their own obsession but the same is true for all fan boy's. Tablets are a small quickly growing market. Its projected that 1 in 5 Americans will have a tablet by 2014, however by then the competition will make better products. It just so happens that the iPad is a superior tablet right now for functionality, stability and ease of use. You can prefer non-Apple products but still appreciate they products they have. I personally think most of their products are too damn expensive for what you get, with the exception of the iPad. It doesn't have the best hardware, but its also at a price point people can reasonably afford for the level of functionality it has (assuming of course one is in the market for a tablet in the first place).

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Antisyzygy]

Idk about the everyman argument's validity as only a small percentage of the population even owns a tablet. It seems to me you Apple fan boys pretty much use any absurd or fallacious argument they can to justify their own obsession but the same is true for all fan boys. Tablets are a small quickly growing market. Its projected that 1 in 5 Americans will have a tablet by 2014, however by then the competition will make better products. It just so happens that the iPad is a superior tablet right now for functionality, stability and ease of use. You can prefer non-Apple products but still appreciate they products they have. I personally think most of their products are too damn expensive for what you get, with the exception of the iPad. It doesn't have the best hardware, but its also at a price point people can reasonably afford for the level of functionality it has (assuming of course one is in the market for a tablet in the first place).

Ps, I didnt mean "you Apple fan boys" just "Apple fan boys". Typo.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Anonymous Coward]

...and you see technology, and then decide that it is perfectly acceptable behavior to felate Steve Jobs because of how much you like it. And you do it constantly, even when he is clearly under the weather (at this moment he is in a grim fandango with that other coffin dodger - Ruper Murdoch.)

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Anonymous Coward]

hopelessly bound to Apple's mindfuck, this one is.

most people are not so dumb and docile that they want Apple's playskool interface and dumb cow safe pasture, sorry. that is just an odd fantasy of the hopelessly Applebrained.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[LodCrappo]

no, apple looks at existing tech and says "ok, how do we make money from selling essentially the same thing?". then they package it up in a form that appeals to the lowest common denominator and step 3, profit.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[high_rolla]

[tongue in cheek]
Maybe he is trying to say that these Android tablets are just a fad. Once Apple releases the iPad 2 the others will be left even further behind.
[/tongue in cheek]

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[DragonWriter]

The best thing Google did marketing-wise was not try to put the Google stamp on Android.

In many other cases they try to work the brand in where it doesn't belong, and every time they fail they dilute it a little more (I'm looking at you, GoogleTV).

They put the brand on everything they own.

They don't own Android. They did buy it, but then they turned around and sold it to the Open Handset Alliance.

Of course, they still develop Android.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[BlueBoxSW.com]

Of course they do....

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[4phun]

The existing Android 2.2 tablets are orders of magnitude more complex than the Ipad.

You say that as if it's a good thing.

The Android tablets are already heavily fragmented which adds to their complexity.
Complexity != Power

As already pointed out the iPad is so powerful that real people enjoy doing what they want everyday.

It is telling that in the hallowed halls of political power they ban the use of laptops but recently approved the use of the iPad ( in more than one country).

Britain added the stipulation they were not allowed to use Google.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[4phun]

Yes, you can do far more on other devices, but a lot of people will never do more, so it is not necessary. There are a lot of applications where a finger touch screen simply works better than a keyboard. Given a little bit of Voice-to-Text a lot of people would hardly ever need a keyboard.

BINGO

I use voice to text all the time for fast input to the iPad while walking around.
A quick paste to where I need it with a tap tap, tap..done.

I can not do that with anything else except with maybe an iPhone.

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[MightyYar]

Sorry, my reason for putting "statistics" in quotes was not to doubt your sources, but to poke fun at the AC who criticized your statistical aptitude when he was talking about basic math. :)

Re:You have to learn to crawl, before you can walk

[Ol Olsoc]

I find it hard to understand how something that is more complex and does not perform as well is better

We will sell no wine before it's time...

[Jonah Hex]

Or more precisely we will sell no piece of technology before it's time. Doesn't matter how long it's languished in obscurity, hackerdom, or both; only when it is time does it reach critical social mass. What's interesting is we're now getting several basic world/computer interfaces in a relatively short period of time, the i-phones and android phones are that format complete and headed into the realm of 70% of the population will own them in n amount of years. And now possibly the "pad" format traveling in it's own time of being the right time. Although you will never convince me it's going to be necessary to really swoop your arms to drag shit from one screen/device to another, I'm too fucking lazy for that.

HEX

Re:We will sell no wine before it's time...

[Anonymous Coward]

"it's" is a contraction of "it is".
"its" is the possessive form of "it".

Please learn and understand this simple rule.

Re:We will sell no wine before it's time...

[frnic]

Ever play scrabble on an iPad with iPhones or iPod Touch as the tile rack. You don't "swoop", just a simple flick of a finger and a letter tile jumps from your device to another - describing it does not do justice to the actual experience.

Re:We will sell no wine before it's time...

[Jonah Hex]

Your absolutely correct, and you're example was superb. Now bugger off.

And what's wrong with saying "before it is time"? Makes perfect sense to me.

HEX

Re:We will sell no wine before it's time...

[Jonah Hex]

Sorry, was more referring to the popular movie/tv trope, not the actual experience we have now. Technology that comes of age can't really be separated from it's image in popular culture, and that's one thing that has always bothered me.

HEX

Re:We will sell no wine before it's time...

[Anonymous Coward]

Burn!

Beta release

[Telvin_3d]

Look, for all the flack they get for the inevitable tweaks made in every X.1 version Apple is about the only tech company that doesn't make a habit of going to the market with beta products and fixing it afterwords. Sometimes you can get away with a paid public beta. Often the advantages of being first in and locking in the early adopters pays off. But in tablets (much like phones) Apple got a jump and did their polishing first. It's harder to get away with launching beta products when the competition has had a polished final product on the market for almost a year.

Re:Beta release

[ghrom]

Couldn't agree more. And what it directly translates to is the resale value of said products for the early adopters. Remember the pice which used iPhone 1.0 was able to fetch after a year from its release? Hell, there are still people willing to pay decent money for it now. I can't see those 5 tablets from TFA going for anything near it, percentage-wise.

Re:Beta release

[mjwx]

Apple is about the only tech company that doesn't make a habit of going to the market with beta products and fixing it afterwords.

Afterwards

Now awaken from your dreamy state and remove the rose coloured glasses.

Apple products have major flaws, just as big as other manufacturers. The Iphone 4 antenna, macbooks consistently overheating, the iphone music deletion bug and thats just from the last year. I do not berate Apple for having these issues, I berate Apple for not fixing them and their response to them. The response to overheating was just to ignore it, the Iphone 4 antenna was to first to pretend it didn't exist, then blame the users and finally hand out free cases without an admission that the problem was systemic.

Re:Beta release

[ghrom]

Because the problem isn't systemic. I own iPhone 4, got the free condom and even used it for a few days, but then I gave it (the used condom, not the iPhone) to my friend and never had regrets. There is no such thing as iPhone 4 antenna issue, get over it. As for the macbook, it does get a bit too hot when I put it on my lap in the bed... but then, you can at least put it in your lap in the bed without completely screwing the airflow like with my Dell. In any case when I'm in bed with my MBP I just use smcFanWhatsItsName to boost the fans and it sure will get noisy, but after a while the heat is gone.

Re:Beta release

[Telvin_3d]

A single accidental homonym in a post made at 1:30 in the morning? Thank you for the correction, but honestly I feel no shame.

Re:Beta release

[multipartmixed]

> The response to overheating was just to ignore it,
> the Iphone 4 antenna was to first to pretend it didn't
> exist, then blame the users and finally hand out free
> cases without an admission that the problem was
> systemic.

I have to admit, I'm not familiar with the overheating problem at all, and I'm a heavy iPhone-4 user.

You missed the conclusion of antenna-gate, however -- they actually quietly fixed the problem. Phones purchased after ~ Oct 5 (in Canada anyhow) got a slight hardware rev -- there is some kind of coating on the antenna, which completely eliminates the death grip problem.

You can tell the phones apart easily by looking at the proximity sensor; it is almost invislble on the phones shipped in August and September, but it's quite a bit easier to see on the later phones.

Re:Beta release

[rjstanford]

Even that's a little misleading I feel - I have a "day two" iPhone 4, and many of my friends and co-workers (tech field, tech town) have first-weekend phones as well. Nobody has any observable antenna issues, but many (including myself) have better reception on the 4 than the 3GS. It was an overblown media circus, nothing more.

Re:Beta release

[ColdWetDog]

Oh stop. mjwx is correct to point out that Apple, once the Reality Distortion Field has subsided a bit, isnt' much different from the others. Look at the Apple forums - just like every other hardware / software manufacturer. Bugs / mechanical problems / poor construction (I'm looking at you, stupid replacement 17" MacBook Pro battery and the funny loose screw I found inside the MBP).

I like Apple stuff, it's a bit better than the bottom of the barrel crap that Dell sells and they have done a much better job of hardware / software integration than anybody else, but they still have problems. Lots and lots of problems. Seems to go with the territory, sad as that statement is.

Re:Beta release

[shutdown -p now]

Apple is about the only tech company that doesn't make a habit of going to the market with beta products and fixing it afterwords.

Ever seen iTunes for Windows?

Re:Beta release

[brantondaveperson]

That's not a beta version, it's just a really bad port.

Re:Beta release

[bennettp]

Look, for all the flack they get for the inevitable tweaks made in every X.1 version Apple is about the only tech company that doesn't make a habit of going to the market with beta products and fixing it afterwords.

• 3rd-party applications were not supported until 2.0.
• Cut-and-paste wasn't available until 3.0.
• Multitasking was not available until 4.0.
• A2DP was not supported until version 3.0, but AVRCP was not properly supported until 4.1.

Apple releases incomplete products all the time. They tend to focus on what it considers most important. Or, more accurately, they focus on what they think is most important for customers. And then they regularly release updates.

i believe

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe in the Honeycomb's. He will make a breakthrough.

Still chasing Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

Born way too early, yet far after Apple's? So basically your admitting the rest of the industry can't keep up with Apple technology which is pretty sad. It's not like Apple was a visionary genius with the tablet idea, the concept was widely shown in media such as Star Trek TNG.

So a hastily thrown together free OS...

[thsths]

... is not as good at differentiating yourself from the competition as a system that Apple has been working on for over 5 year? (Let's not forget that the iPhone was just a spin-off from the tablet project.) Wow, I am surprised. I thought the blessing of Google would change everything. Are you saying that Google does not change everything?

Re:So a hastily thrown together free OS...

[Anonymous Coward]

Google bought Android inc in 2005.

As opposed to...

[Spykk]

Even though it's fast, well-designed, and comes with a decent Android implementation, its functionality is limited to that of an Android smartphone.

It's kind of hard to take that seriously when the metric they are comparing against is essentially a scaled up iPhone...

Re:As opposed to...

[Netshroud]

Wrong way around. The iPhone is a scaled-down iPad. Android tablets are scaled-up Android smartphones.

Re:As opposed to...

[fredmosby]

Apple re-wrote the built in apps to take advantage of the increased screen size. Android won't do that until Honeycomb comes out.

Re:As opposed to...

[yacc143]

Funny, on my 1024x660 10,1" Archos tablet, the builtin apps look quite nicely scaled. Even Non-Archos apps e.g. Google Market which is available only inofficially for the Archos look perfectly scaled and fine.

This might be because Android, since Version 1.0 (which did not support different screensizes or big screens at all) has been using a descriptive layout UI, which means, that all apps that do not abuse that (basically emulating x/y positioning and abusing the tools in the process), scale sensibly to a bigger screen. Probably not perfectly, and in cases it might make more sense to add additional UI elements instead of scaling existing ones.

Btw, the only thing that does not "scale" to the Tablet format in practice are ads. Ads that would be bothersome on a 3.2" 320x480 screen are hard to notice on a 10.1" 1024x600 screen :)

Re:As opposed to...

[harlows_monkeys]

Mod Skykk up, as he is in fact correct.

Jobs himself has said Apple started on the iPad before they started on the iPhone. During development of the iPad, they realized the interface would work great scaled down to a phone, and put the iPad on hold to developed the iPhone. See the Wikipedia article on the iPad for cites.

Re:As opposed to...

[tehcyder]

Wrong way around. The iPhone is a scaled-down iPad. Android tablets are scaled-up Android smartphones.

Are you saying that Apple developed the iPad first but held it back while they tested the market with the iPhone?

Re:As opposed to...

[BasilBrush]

Funny, on my 1024x660 10,1" Archos tablet, the builtin apps look quite nicely scaled.

It's not a question of scaling. It's a question of redesigning for a different screen size. In the mail app for example, the iPhone only has space to display either the message list OR an email at once. The iPad displays both.

Compare and contrast:
http://admintell.napco.com/ee/images/uploads/appletell/iphone-mail1.png
http://media.bestofmicro.com/Apple-ipad-3G-WiFi,4-F-246399-13.jpg

Re:As opposed to...

[shutdown -p now]

Unlike static UI layout of iOS apps, Android has always promoted dynamic, rescaling/reflowing layouts by default. Given the variety of screen sizes on Android devices, it has been a necessity long before tablets came up, and now this means that many apps written for phones look fairly decent on tablets. Not perfect, mind you, but good enough - certainly much, much better than the "scale pixels 2x" hack you see on iPad for iPhone apps.

Re:As opposed to...

[bennettp]

Are you saying that Apple developed the iPad first but held it back while they tested the market with the iPhone?

That's exactly what he's saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPad#History

Jobs later admitted that development started on the iPad before the iPhone.[22][23][24] Upon realizing that it would work just as well as a mobile phone, Jobs put development of the iPad on hold and decided to develop the iPhone instead.[25]

There is choice

[SuperKendall]

hen Apple decided not to release new functionality for the older Iphones and Ipads, what other choice do you have but to buy a new one to get that functionality.

You jailbreak and load on whatever you like.

Not like you can run unsigned code on an Ipad.

Yes you can quite easily, if it's jailbroken.

You are no worse off than the person who has to fetch a custom Android build for whatever device the manufacturer is not updating, although at least with Apple you;ll be getting official updates for you device longer.

Re:There is choice

[antifoidulus]

Jailbreaking will only allow you to run unsigned code at the user level, currently there is no way to run unsigned bootstrap code which is necessary to run any other operating system.

Re:There is choice

[AmiMoJo]

Isn't this whole debate academic anyway? Most people get their phone on contract so will replace it every couple of years. That is even more true for smart phones because without a data connection their functionality is severely reduced, meaning you can't easily switch to pay-as-you-go.

That is of course what the manufacturers want, which is why they don't provide updates indefinitely. I am somewhat surprised that Apple supported iOS4 on the older 3G models, especially as in the past with the iPod classic range they never back-ported any new features except extra DRM (so not really a 'feature' then).

Re:There is choice

[sortius_nod]

Not true, Android has been ported to run on iPhones.

Re:There is choice

[SuperKendall]

Isn't this whole debate academic anyway? Most people get their phone on contract so will replace it every couple of years.

That would make the debate academic if most Android phones were updated for two years. Most do not get updates past a year out; some of them less than that.

The iPhone, to date, has generally been updated well past the two-year window...

Not born too soon.

[Renderer of Evil]

Born out of wedlock.

None of these Android ODMs care about growing and nurturing the platform whether it comes to constant updates or application compatibility. It's only market growth in raw numbers with the thinnest of margins, but that's just a consequence of dumping bargain-basement hardware into the stores by truckloads to see what sticks. See: Augens, Streaks, Galaxy Tab, and whatever Archos is doing.

On the mobile phone front if you pick up any two Android phones you'll see completely different methodologies, bizarre UI conventions, half-done features that exist for no logical reason for the sake of filling out checkboxes on spec sheets.

Despite this, Android phones took off because a) there was a vacuum of other more coherent, non-iOS platforms and b) because carriers subsidize the cost of the hardware and everyone needs a phone. It's an essential device.

Tablets face a much harder battle because majority of consumers are unwilling to sign a contract for a non-essential, secondary devices. Note the historically flaccid Netbook sales coupled with subsidies. This is especially true when most people have prior contracts with their phones. Having 2 mobile contracts doesn't quite gel.

Motorola XOOM's pricing came out today at $800 USD with additional, carrier specific caveats. You'd be insane to shell out that much money for a 1st gen, untested device with no compelling app ecosystem vis-Ã-vis iPad/2.

My belief is that the market is wide open right now and the second place is still up for grabs. Could be HP, could be Microsoft's new WP7 thing (if they get their heads out of their ass), or Android.

But just showing up with a tablet is not enough. You need to have healthy margins, curated app ecosystem, and platform continuity. iOS provides that. Android is too fragmented at the moment to pull it off. Sad thing is, Google is unwilling to exert any control and clean up their cluttered, spam-ridden marketplace or force these manufacturers into shipping devices without silly skins.

It's been said before that Android is a meta-platform, and I tend to agree with that. This gives hope to other OSes into jumping into the fray and becoming second to Apple. I truly believe that iPad has an iPod-like lock on the tablets for years to come (check above about subsidies).

Re:Not born too soon.

[Qwavel]

I agree with some of your points, but you wrote a few crazy things...

You dismiss the enormous success of Android phones to a few negative causes even though the many advantages of Android are widely discussed and reported. These include things like diversity of hardware, integration with Google services, ability to customize the software. My personal #1 is the openness, and I'm not talking about code here. My favorite app is Google Navigation, which I use every day, not just because it is free but because of the integration. I didn't skip the iPhone due to my carrier or my wallet.

The next silly thing you did was to insist that Android NEEDS a "curated app ecosystem" in order to compete. Let me remind you that Apple has totally abused its power over it app store. Not only to advance its strategic interests and block competition, but to stifle criticism and free speech. If you are a big friendly corporation like News Corp you will get pushed to the front, if you make fun of some politicians (the Pulitzer guy) or show too much skin (Esquire magazine) you get blocked.

The upside of the "curated app ecosystem" appears to be that the marketplace isn't cluttered with crap. I'm sure the crap is there in the Marketplace but I think you have be digging to find it - using the same criteria of stars and download numbers that helped me find good apps has also prevented me from encountering that crap. And, for the record, the Marketplace does have strict rules, but they are fairly simple, they are written out, and they are for the good of the users, not Google.

It's one thing that you are willing to accept the abuses of Apple's app store in order to have a clean Marketplace, but it's a bit much that you think that Google must adopt this to succeed.

Re:Not born too soon.

[Anonymous Coward]

]You'd be insane to shell out that much money for a 1st gen, untested device with no compelling app ecosystem vis-Ã-vis iPad/2.

=

So, on that note, people shouldn't have bought the first iPad right? But I bet you waited in line for that...

In terms of an "app ecosystem", what are you talking about? WTF is an app "ecosystem"? Are you talking about a convenient way to sell movies/songs to people like ITunes? The new tablets that have the Android Market have a great app ecosystem as far as I can tell. I will grant that the tablets that do not have the Android Market don't have a good app market for their customers. But, the ability to install apps without the approval of a 1984ish approval from an oppressive and arbitrary central authority is a great strength. Because of Apple's slow pace, they can only compete hardware-wise for a few months a year at best. I mean, iPads still think a front facing camera, HDMI output, and 4G are crazy ideas that they might implement some day.

Anyway, if you think Android is too fragmented to pull this off, then how do you explain Android phones destroying the iPhones in terms of sales?

Saying Android is fragmented is like saying Windows is fragmented. There are all sorts of Windows versions out there, and most vendors add their own suite of built-in applications when you buy a computer. Still, without really trying very hard, Android tablets have gained about 3 times as much Market share (in terms of Tablets) in one year as Apple gained in the PC market in its entire history. That was before Android even had an OS designed for tablets. But, for Apple to still have more tablet market share a year from now, Android growth in Tablets will have to be slower this year than last year. That seems pretty unlikely considering the number of Android tablets being released this year.

Re:Not born too soon.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the mobile phone front if you pick up any two Android phones you'll see completely different methodologies, bizarre UI conventions, half-done features that exist for no logical reason for the sake of filling out checkboxes on spec sheets.

Ignoring the fact that people are already use to having different interfaces for different devices (say, a desktop computer vs a phone)...

Somehow tapping on icons is completely different methodologies? Sure some things might be in different places (not very many), but it's still largely the same. Apps still look identical between devices, so that can't be it.

And speaking of half done, at least the first major Android tablet has a video chat camera so they don't milk their consumers.

Also, define bizarre UI conventions (instead of regurgitating what the mothership said)?

no compelling app ecosystem

So the Android market, with all of it's 120k apps means nothing, I guess?

Re:Not born too soon.

[thegarbz]

I agree with much of the argument but some of it is misdirected. Everyone compares Andriod to the iPhone and complaining about fragmentation which is similar to complaining about a Dell vs a HP computer compared to a Mac. iOS is a fantastic system, and IMO Andriod offers all the same user experience providing companies let it. That's what's different between lineups. User experience. There's subtle changes in the UI between my Galaxy S, and my friend's HTC Driod, but ultimately we can both run all the same apps and have a system which works very much in the same way.

True fragmentation wouldn't provide for this. What a lot of people are complaining about is Andriod, whereas what they really pine for underneath is long term platform support. This has nothing to do with Andriod and everything to do with Samsung, Motorola, HTC, etc. Andriod by itself is doing astonishingly well and growing in marketshare by the day. Time will tell if one company will step up to enhance the user experience by providing continuous updates. I think Samsung have potential here. Sure some people complain that the Galaxy S didn't come with Froyo, but then Samsung did provide a release, and a release for 2.2.1 for most of the world, and they have promised 2.3 eventually. And this delay is also stunting the user experience. The system being customised means that people hear about their friends having the latest and greatest OS before it is available to them, and that hurts even if they get the system eventually.

IMO for this to work we need a company to step up, provide a very solid hardware platform (which many like Samsung do), provide an easy method to update (which Samsung definitely does NOT, Kies is the biggest load of garbage since iTunes for Windows which it funnily enough tries to emulate), provide long term support for the device and commit to rolling out future Andriod versions, and also do this all in a timely fashion that doesn't involve users being left out. Aside from this support issue Andriod as an operating system IMO is every bit as refined and a pleasure to use than iOS. Hear that manufacturers? Pull your finger out!

Re:Not born too soon.

[recharged95]

It must be flamebait day.

The early android tablets suck cause the vendors didn't understand the software potential... and what the consumers wanted. Guess what, the iPad sucks too, it's limited in power, barely multitasks and has it's only issues (trying playing a MP4 video). It is successful that it strikes a balance in price and polish. iPads don't win on technology, but balance and consumer awareness (i.e. Apple advertises the heck out of these devices).

I'd choose my X61 tablet (yes, it's a tablet folks) over any of these. Pricey yes, but 100x more useful and will be applicable 5yrs from now, where as the current iPad and Android tablets will be obsolete.

Knock-offs shouldn't have long term impact

[angularbanjo]

Many of these tablets are just those MID-based far east iPad knock-offs; they're in abundance in the UK from electrical outlets like Maplin. They're not a serious competitor to anything, in the way that knock-off Bentleys aren't. Some of these are just so laughably poor that a decent Honeycomb implementation shouldn't have to worry about a paternal suit.

Still too expensive

[SuperKendall]

We haven't seen a device come out that's really cost competitive with the iPad. Sure you can get cheaper Android devices, but with a wide variety of flaws including slow UI and bad battery life.

The Tab looked OK, but is kind of small, and there's the upgrade issue... for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to be selling at a huge clip, but I think mainly because it requires a contract.

The first Android tablet I thought looked like it might be really good was the Xoom. But now we know it's $800, and if a Best Buy circular is to be believed, you can't even use it on WiFi without paying for a month of cell service! To me it seems like the quickest way to kill a product is to make the first thing consumers do when they get your device is to interact with a cellular company. That was a large part about why the original iPhone was so successful, because Apple wrapped up all the carrier contract bullshit into an iTunes interface for signup that was tolerable.

MOD PARENT THE HECK UP

[dafing]

It really isnt good enough, as you mentioned.

And to make it seem like the Streak, Galaxy Tab were somehow "pioneers" too, that we should give them a free pass, "well, I didnt want to buy that hipster iPad that everyone loves and talks about..." UNREAL~! :-)

Re:MOD PARENT THE HECK UP

[somersault]

What's wrong with the Streak? o_0

The Galaxy Tab's screen is too small, and the device itself just feels too chunky and cheap IMO. 7" isn't very portable, so you might as well go to 9 or 10" to get a decent sized screen. The Streak is a nice size, and also very thin. I liked it so much I bought one, and I'm very happy with it.

Tablets in general were born too soon

[ProbablyJoe]

Well, I think it was going to happen regardless really, obviously they want to get in on the action now Apple has driven everyone tablet crazy.

Still, every time I see an announcement saying a company is releasing an Android 2.3 tablet I groan. I for one wouldn't consider buying any tablets that aren't released with 3.0. I don't really need something with identical functionality to my phone, with a bigger screen

That said, I'm not sure 3.0 even brings enough to the table - and the same goes for the iPad (I don't claim to know much about them, but as far as I'm aware the iOS on there is almost identical to iPhones?). The resolution on these tablets is almost as big as my monitor at work, and yet they still don't have windowed apps? I was amazed when I tried out the Android 3.0 preview SDK, and every single app, even simple things like SMS, took up the entire screen. I know some of these simple things provide widgets for that sort of thing, but really, why do we not have windowed apps yet? It's not like Android has any issues with multitasking, so why can't it do 2 things on the same screen?

Until I can do more with a tablet than I can with my phone, I'll be more likely to consider a small laptop (or a netbook for you buzzword lovers).

Re:Tablets in general were born too soon

[node 3]

The resolution on these tablets is almost as big as my monitor at work, and yet they still don't have windowed apps?

Having windows has nothing to do directly with screen resolution. The first Macintosh had a 640x400 screen. It has to do with how you interact with the system. There is definitely some use for popover windows in a tablet, but not really any use for a full on windowed OS.

Re:Tablets in general were born too soon

[BasilBrush]

Microsoft has been pushing tablets with windowed apps for over a decade. Nobody wants them.

prolly written by an apple troll

[Latinhypercube]

"...its functionality is limited to that of an Android smartphone"
you mean like how the ipad is a big iphone and not a real computer ?

Re:prolly written by an apple troll

[scdeimos]

I have used a few tablets belonging to others:

• Hanvon B10. A very crappy Windows 7 tablet, and sooo slow. The touch screen is alleged to be capacitive but is not sensitive enough to type on without pressing hard (seems resistive to me) and you can't even drag the cursor within about 8mm of the top of the screen.
• Telstra Tab. Yuck. *shivers* It's Telstra and it shows. Need I say more?
• Samsung Galaxy Tab. This was actually pretty good. Fast, responsive and sensitive screen. But you could tell the apps were designed for a smaller screen and just stretched onto this larger one.
• Apple iPad. It's just a big iPhone really, just a little faster. At least the majority of apps I played with were different to their iPhone counterparts in ways that made more sense for the larger screen. The browsing experience was much better. On the gaming front, Infinity Blade worked better than on the iPhone simply because it had a larger area with which to work out gestures (the iPhone version misses a lot and gets a lot wrong). Osmos on the iPad is truly awesome to behold.

I don't own a tablet and probably won't for a number of years: there's very little at all impressive on them yet. Based on what I've played with so far the iPad seems to be the best of the bunch, but I wouldn't want the Apple lock-in (and I'm probably not inclined to jailbreak one). Think I'll wait to see how Honeycomb turns out.

Re:prolly written by an apple troll

[theVarangian]

Samsung Galaxy Tab. This was actually pretty good. Fast, responsive and sensitive screen. But you could tell the apps were designed for a smaller screen and just stretched onto this larger one.

Not only that, every time you want to change your grip or rotate the Galaxy Tab those capacitive buttons on the extreme edge of the thing keep getting accidentally activated. The iPad has only one mechanical button like the iPhone and a buffer zone around the display so your fingers don't accidentally activate something on the screen. Also full international keyboard support on the Galaxy Tab is only available on that lame Swype keyboard, not the regular one.

Re:prolly written by an apple troll

[ProppaT]

I would rather be "limited" to the functionality of Android than limited to the "functionality" of iOS. And that's not even a matter of preference, that comes down to pure functionality...

In the other hand....

[gmuslera]

Maemo was killed too early. Would had loved to see a bigger-than-n900 tablet/netvertible with it, The remaining hope is Meego, and is coming very late to the party.

Re:In the other hand....

[Sockatume]

Maemo's still very much alive. They've not released anything with it in years because the Nokia-Intel partnership is comically mismanaged, but it's under constant development with new hardware perpetually six months away.

Re:In the other hand....

[Sockatume]

Misread, thought you said Meego, didn't hit Cancel in time.

Re:In the other hand....

[yuna49]

I wonder how much attention Nokia will pay to Maemo if it makes Win7 its default mobile platform:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/technology/04nokia.html

Combination of handset vendors and carriers

[Sits]

There was an anonymous forum post earlier in the year talking about how the political situation between carriers and handset makers in the US works against major updates. Basically feature updates can cause problems for carriers and certain handset makers also charge them extra for major updates.

Natural selection

[bl8n8r]

A lot of those crappy android tablets are under $200 bucks and will get weeded out. It's the natural evolution of gadgets and just the way the consumer market space works. If anything, it sounds to me like the iFans are getting a little worried and trying to find anything they can to argue with. If you want a great android tablet the Moto Xoom is the one you want. Oh, and it comes with a USB port and dual cameras. Apple doesn't give you either. Apple wants you to be an iWhore and they are succeeding en masse. At least with even the crappiest android tablet you can still get your data off/on it without having to try and go through the steel fist of apple.

Re:Natural selection

[__aashqr1992]

The moto xoom will be $800, with all the bizarre tweaks noted above (like the wifi requiring a cell contract), and there's no certainty it won't be locked down in the same way motorola phones are. In addition, it isn't even released yet- let's actually take a look at something before we recommend it. Also, trusting Motorola not to intentionally obsolete your gadget within a year is optimistic considering their past behaviour.

Then revise market share

[SuperKendall]

If anything, you should compare the iPhone to a specific brand or manufacturer for instance, the HTC Nexus One - which not only has been getting ALL the android updates officially, but also has INCREDIBLE community support and car run a host of custom ROMs!

If you are saying only a handful of phones are "real" Android phones then the market-share figures need some serious revision to reflect the split between phones that will be kept up to date vs. those stuck at a past rev with no help from the carrier to advance.

You can't claim Android is making huge inroads with one hand while dismissing all but a tiny number of handsets with the other.

Re:Then revise market share

[HateBreeder]

All I'm asking is that you compare apples to apples.

iOS Market share vs. Android Market Share.

How many times do we need to repeat this: Android is an OS not a Phone!

iPhone market share is much greater than any single Android based handset.

Re:Then revise market share

[ducomputergeek]

This is something I have to explain to customers when we do mobile development, especially explaining our pricing for Android. We only give QA on the Nexus One/(now S). Each additional handset costs extra and typically most will want QA against Droid(Verizon), HTC Evo(Sprint), and Samsung (AT&T/T-Mobile). That makes the Android platform usually between 3 to 5 times the cost to develop for iPhone/iPod. Usually we treat the iPad as a separate device just as we'll treat these new tablets running Android as each being a different "platform".

Last year we tried to treat "Android" as a platform, but we ended up losing money on that side of the business because every time we turned around there were a half dozen new handsets and a new OS version to deal with.

Re:Then revise market share

[drinkypoo]

How many times do we need to repeat this: Android is an OS not a Phone!

And iOS runs on iDevices which are not phones! So perhaps you should stop repeating your useless canard.

Re:Then revise market share

[Americano]

Interestingly, though, most of the "iOS vs. Android" market share stats we see flogged here omit iPod Touch and iPad figures from the OS totals, even though those are both first-class 'iOS devices'. When that's pointed out, the Android fans are quick to assert that Android "isn't currently designed for tablets, so of course you can't compare an entire category of devices where Android doesn't even compete."

But then when a comparison is made that suggests the "average" Android experience is worse than the "average" iOS experience, we're asked to omit all of the bad Android experiences, and only concentrate on two specific models of Android hardware which represent the unequivocal best-possible Android experience.

Why is that, do you suppose?

And here is the heart of the fragmentation argument: Apple's "average" experience is pretty much equivalent to their "best" experience: you buy an iPhone, or an iPad, or an iPod Touch, and you know what you're getting. There's a very narrow range of experience there, by design: same OS, same hardware features (give or take a phone chip or larger screen), very consistent interfaces & operation. By comparison, Android's "average" experience is much lower than Android's "best" experience: you buy a Nexus S, and compare it to a cheaper, year-old Sony-Ericsson phone, and there's a rather large gap in what you can expect for features, interfaces, operation, and general performance, look and feel.

Imagine if Apple decided to release cheap plastic iPod and iPad and iPhone knockoffs with bad long-term support and flaky hardware: would this build or cheapen the iOS 'brand'? Then consider what that same situation is doing to the Android 'brand': if the Nexus line is, as you suggest, "Android done right," then almost every other Android unit sold is simply lowering the average for the market's expectations of Android. And as a result, you hear about how the market is fragmented and uneven and lacks long-term support from lots of vendors: this is the "average" experience, and it isn't particularly good.

Re:Then revise market share

[HateBreeder]

And here lies the difference between us.

You care about building or cheapening a "brand".

I care about the technical aspects of a product.

Re:Then revise market share

[Americano]

You've made it quite clear you care very much about the Android 'brand' - to the point that you're willing to disregard entire swaths of the ecosystem as "not REALLY Android," to make your point that Android is just as good as iOS.

So, since you want a platform-to-platform comparison: let's compare iOS against Android (both Operating Systems!), with respect to the amount of upgrade support the device manufacturers provide after the sale.

Every iOS device that's been released since the iPod Touch 2G (released September 2008), iPhone 3G (released July 2008), and all iPad (released April 2010) models are upgradable to the latest iOS version, 4.2.1. EVERY one. That's 100%.

How many Android devices (tablets, phones, toasters, whatever you want to lump as an Android device) that have been released since July 2008 can claim that they run the latest Android version, 2.3.2? My guess is that it's significantly less than 100%, unless 100% of the Android phones sold since July of 2008 have been Nexus phones.

Bottom line is this: if Google cares about making Android successful, then they should care VERY MUCH about whether manufacturers are building or cheapening their "brand". If "Android" gets a reputation for being flaky, having lousy support, not being upgradable - nobody will see the use of Android as a positive. They'll simply buy a "Motorola Droid / Samsung Galaxy / HTC Nexus, because that's what I have already, or an Apple iPhone because I hear it works better." And to head off your probable next objection -- if the use of Android isn't worth mentioning... why in god's name are we subjected to "ANDROID SHIPS MORE UNITS THAN IPHONE IN Q1" stories? If we're not supposed to care about Android as a brand... why is anybody counting units sold?

Re:Then revise market share

[HateBreeder]

1 - It's the apple trolls that claim that iOS is the largest (in terms of market share) platform - so if you play their game you might as well give accurate facts.

2 - Market share proves nothing except for how successfully a product was marketed.

3 - You keep comparing the iPhone line to all Android phones in existence. And you somehow attempt to pass this as a valid comparison by treating android as a BRAND, when in fact it's not a brand. You fail to realize that android is an open platform that is running on a host of different devices. Android is like Linux - it can run on ANYTHING - even those over-priced under-performing shiny white toys apple tries to pass as "computers" - oh, sorry.. i meant, "The Apple experience delivery platforms".

4 - If we refer back to point (2) you will note that Android is EXTREMELY successful, in terms of a financial success and being a market leader. It does not mean that android is "better" or is a whole "solution". Whether you like it or not, Android is doing in the phone space what Windows has done in the PC. Yes, PC is the dominant platform - even though Apple tries to present as a platform for suit wearing "serious" consumers, compared to the trendy and cool musical-silhouettes Macs are.

5 - Units sold is the measure by which Market share is determined. And while we agree it says nothing about the quality of the end product - the fact that Android has a massive market share, makes the entire platform more attractive for developers which in turn increases the market share even further. That's a positive feedback loop. Just like Microsoft has in the PC market.

6 - "average" experience is meaningless, because had you listened to anything I had to say, you would realize that Android is not the WHOLE solution. it's merely PART of the solution. And the fact that carriers deter from the experience is not Android's fault... but that doesn't matter, since the more android phones there are the more "alive" the platform is. See point (5)

Re:Then revise market share

[jo_ham]

Right, and the parent post is telling you that the technical aspects of that product are not in isolation - either Android has huge market share and awesomeness and openness etc etc, or it's your posited view - only an tiny number of handsets count when assessing its quality.

If "fragmentation is not an issue" as many here claim, then all the Android devices should be included, surely - this includes all the ones locked into old versions with no vendor support, and the ones that are hard to root (or that require rooting at all, in the supposedly "free of the walled garden" ecosystem).

It's one or the other - you can't flip between them at will to deemphasise the downsides, just as you can't crow on one hand that Android is outselling iOS, has bigger marketshare etc, then on the other hand simultaneously claim Apple is violating antitrust laws because it is abusing its "monopoly" in the smartphone market (not even bringing RIM or Nokia into it - the two positions are mutually exclusive, yet I see them presented as fact on slashdot all the time, at the same time).

There's a great deal to like about Android, and it has achieved remarkable things in a short space of time, but there are enough good points that you don;t need to attempt to twist things around to cover any tiny bit of perceived criticism. Responding to criticism is one of the ways you improve as a product. (although saying that, the article is a bit weak, but I am talking about this thread in the current context).

Re:Then revise market share

[Americano]

I am NOT comparing the iPhone line to all of Android. I'm comparing iOS to Android. I never said it was Android's "fault" that some carriers provide substandard experiences with their devices. I did, however, say that it's absolutely fair to compare the two platforms (iOS and Android) with an eye towards which, on average, have better long-term support for new OS releases. You want to compare the Nexus to the iPhone and say that, as a result, "Android is fine." I'm comparing iOS and Android, and saying that the results are tremendously uneven, and that Android *can be* fine, but is *often not fine.* The blame for this mostly lies with Google not putting tighter restrictions on certification of devices to use the Android trademark - not Android's fault, but definitely "Android's" problem.

So, please answer these 2 questions, with simple yes or no:

1) Does every still-functioning Android device released since July of 2008 (phones, tablets, toasters, jetpacks, sex toys, etc) run the latest version of the Android Operating System, 2.3.2, "Gingerbread"?
          -- The answer is "no." So why would you expect that the fact that some devices and manufacturers simply will not support it would not count against the general perception of "Android" in the market?

2) Does every still-functioning iOS device released since July of 2008 (iPads, iPod Touches, and iPhones) run the latest version of iOS, 4.2.1?
          -- The answer is "yes".

And finally: if "Android" as a marketing term of art is so minimally important, why are you treating it as if it's so important? If it doesn't matter what the public's perception of "Android" is, because it's only part of a solution, then you also have to concede that Android, as a market, is fragmented to such an extent that the term "Android" has ceased to mean much of anything, and the only thing that really matters is the manufacturer's brand & lineup name for their devices which happen to run Android, e.g. "Motorola Droid," "Samsung Galaxy," and "HTC/Google Nexus."

Re:Then revise market share

[s73v3r]

iOS Market share vs. Android Market Share.

So you're going to add the 30 million some iPod Touches in there, right?

Re:Then revise market share

[Belial6]

It isn't a useless canard. Android should be compared to iOS. That means that iPods should be counted both in market share, and in fragmentation.

Re:Then revise market share

[Belial6]

I agree.

In my household we have had myTouch 3G, Nexus One, G2, gTablet, iPhone3G (for development at work), and a iPod Touch. The myTouch 3G's were a little underpowered for the OS. This made them feel a little kludgy. Not a lot, but it was there. The iPhone3G ran a little smoother. I still prefered the myTouch, as it was more configurable. Between that, and my dislike of iPhone's closed ecosystem, I stuck with lived with the device being a little underpowered for the OS. Once I got my Nexus One, the iPhone no longer even registered as a viable option. The Nexus One was superior in every way. The only complaint I had with it was the lack of physical keyboard, but that wasn't going to be solved with an iPhone. (actually, there are now third party add ons for that). My wife had a myTouch also, and she insisted on using the iPod for playing music, but was not interested at all in getting an iPhone instead of her myTouch. The reason she used the iPod for music, was because it was a reasonably good interface, and it was not running on the same battery as her phone. She liked knowing that she could run her music player's battery all the way down, and not have to worry about missing calls. Last week she got a HTC G2, and she has been telling me that every one of her complaints with her previous phone have been resolved, and the G2 is better than she could have hoped for. The fact that she can wirelessly sync her music from her PC to her phone is a particularly big deal to her. At this point, her phone is no longer an accessory to her computer. It is a full fledged peer on the network.

I have to say, I am a little jealous. I definitly have keyboard envy. I think I might upgrade to the G2, and pass my Nexus One on to my son.

Newton

[Anonymous Coward]

Somebody should mention the apple newton. It was a tablet and it was released too soon.

See some of use believe in product intelligent design and others in product evolution.

Re:Newton

[__aatirs3925]

You should consider registering to /. if you're going to be making those silly remarks 3

Re:Newton

[__aatirs3925]

(offtopic)

You should consider registering to /. if you're going to be making those silly remarks 3

The 3 is suppose to be a heart. i forgot to disable html for my post so please don't take it the wrong way

but the galaxy tab is nice...

[__aatirs3925]

Sure, it cost about $700 + $100 in extra fees (thanks verizon for cheating my step-dad for paying that much for nothing), but the tablet itself seems to work fine, so long as you don't install more than 30apps on it. I had to format it once because I had too many apps and it was lagging to the very end, and I have roughly 20~ish downloaded apps on top of my pre-bundled apps and it's starting to do it again. Despite this, it does what it needs to do unless you want to use the GPS... Man, I almost forgot about the GPS problem. If you have your tablet on for too long your GPS won't work and you'll have to restart the system which can sometimes take a whopping 15mins depending on how many apps you have (currently 4mins for me). I guess I am suffering from early adopter's denial :/

There probably won't be a Honeycomb distro for this unit either since Samsung is terrible at providing updates and there's none available on the dev site.

Re:but the galaxy tab is nice...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, it cost about $700 + $100 in extra fees (thanks verizon for cheating my step-dad for paying that much for nothing), but the tablet itself seems to work fine, so long as you don't install more than 30apps on it. I had to format it once because I had too many apps and it was lagging to the very end, and I have roughly 20~ish downloaded apps on top of my pre-bundled apps and it's starting to do it again. Despite this, it does what it needs to do unless you want to use the GPS... Man, I almost forgot about the GPS problem. If you have your tablet on for too long your GPS won't work and you'll have to restart the system which can sometimes take a whopping 15mins depending on how many apps you have (currently 4mins for me). I guess I am suffering from early adopter's denial :/

There probably won't be a Honeycomb distro for this unit either since Samsung is terrible at providing updates and there's none available on the dev site.

Hmm..

Not sure what your issues are. I have over 60 apps on my Galaxy Tab and everything runs fine. Your problem is that the apps are likely starting themselves up on boot or connecting to the internet periodically.

I solved this issue by using TaskManager and Droidwall.

Also, if you are technically inclined, you can root your devices and using the Terminal just disable 3rd party applications so that they do NOT start on boot.

$ su root
$ pm list packages
$ pm disable

Note: Using the method above does not brick your device since you can easily re-enable them.

Re:but the galaxy tab is nice...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm. I think I will stay with the iPad, thanks.
It just works...

Not only tablets...AC-100 is also an epic failure

[aaaaaaargh!]

I've just bought a Toshiba AC-100 at a reduced price and spent 4 hours trying to figure out how to install flash for watching videos (hint: not possible). Okay, so flash is evil, perhaps I should force myself to live without it even though its used everywhere. Then I spent another 4 hours and numerous factory resets trying to figure out how to enter accented characters---the keyboard is Portuguese and has accents, but for some bizarre reason they are not combined with the character. On Ubuntu I'd just change the keyboard settings, but on Android there is no such setting (no, ctrl-space does not work). Of course, I could press "a" very long to get a menu and choose the accent in that menu---a really good option for someone who makes a living by writing texts. Oh and by the way, there is no word processor or text editor on the AC-100. And, of course, Toshiba had the glorious idea not to include the market place app so you cannot install new apps from market.android.com and have to use their crappy clone with about 50 apps instead.

Quite honestly, if I had the money I would definitely sue companies for pushing out clearly unfinished and dysfunctional products like the AC-100. I'm tired and too busy for being an unpaid beta tester, and putting GNU/linux on the device is not always a solution. (In case of the AC-100 it's still very complicated even for a tech-savvy person like me and you can accidentally brick the device because the factory reset does not work as it should.)

Could someone make a page with the personal phone numbers of the CEOs of companies like Toshiba, so people can call them up for customer support? Just an idea...

Anyway, thanks for your attention ;-) I'll return the device tomorrow.

Fashion accessory

[angus77]

What's this talk about technology? The iPad is a fashion accessory. Android tablets are not fashionable.

Seriously, what is the point of a tablet device? At the high school I work at, we're going to be made to use iPad's starting in April. I've played around with one of the test devices and I can't imagine actually getting work done on these things. I'm dreading April. If it were an Android device it wouldn't be any better.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Drethon]

Depends on the application, for viewing of large, complex circuit diagrams or UML diagrams the tables look very promising. Not sure that is worth $500+ but if someone can produce a tablet with excellent display capability at very low cost, I'd like one for hardware/software development...

Re:Fashion accessory

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not "hype" enough, man.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, the iPad which i'd gladly swap for a Galaxy only holds wow factor. If i download another app and it strangely crashes on me ONE MORE TIME!! I will hurl my iPad at someones head.

Speaking of "unfinished" Apple are the ones that need to catch up. Android is well designed, its flexible and it has a long way to go. As we've seen with the lack of features between the iPhone 3 and 4 the iPad 2 will suffer the same price point issues Apple is suffering with iPhones.

Smartphone wise, i recently damaged my iPhone, had to pick up a LG Optimus for $200 and upgraded it too Android 2.2. Remarkably i can do nearly as much as what i could with the iPhone, the exception was HD games, having said that Optimus has a better camera than the iPhone 3.

Phone company is sending out a spanking new iPhone 4 in a months time, that baby is going straight to eBay I wont even open the box.

Re:Fashion accessory

[multipartmixed]

> I've played around with one of the test devices and I
> can't imagine actually getting work done on these things.

Only morons choose tools and then go to look for jobs to do with them.

I'm a programmer, I would have a very hard time getting work done on a hammer.

This does not mean a hammer is not a useful tool.

As an amateur musician, I find the iPad to be pretty close to the ideal form-factor for displaying sheet music. The only thing I think I would change is better dedicated software (which is coming along nicely) and a 9x12" screen.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Anonymous Coward]

Normally I just read, but I felt I had to weigh in on this. Sorry for the AC status, so here's some background on me. I am in my mid thirties and going to college after some time in the Navy running shipboard reactor plants. My degree plan includes BS in physics, BS in applied mathematics, and then on to PhD studies. After sustaining some injuries in the military, I have a hard time carrying more than ten pounds on my back for long stretches (let alone day after day).

My apple iPad serves me primarily by containing all of my textbooks as well as scans of my notes, papers, etc. This constitutes a weight savings of approximately forty pounds, as well as alowing me access to everything I have ever studied or written in my college career. To be fair, I have yet to find a satisfactory app for taking notes in mathematics or science classes; nothing seems to beat Paper & Pencil 1.0. :-) So most days, I carry looseleaf engineer's paper, my iPad, my pencil, and a travel coffee mug. This allows me to go to college, which I think is pretty darn cool.

As to the ideas that the iPad, or any tablet, is a toy or a fashion accessory, I would like to say that from my experience both of these things are possible, but not likely if you consider how the device can benefit you and let it shine in that role. It is definitely not a laptop replacement (I can't run Sage, Maple, or Mathematica, let alone write/run my own code), nor is it yet the student's dream all-in-one away from the dorm room device (paper is still the champion at info collection IMHO). On all fronts, there is room for improvement from all tablets on the market, my precious iPad included. :-)

I would suggest to you, come April, to find out what your iPads are truly good at and let them do those things really well, and simultaneously be ready to dismiss them from roles for which they are unsuited. In the simple role of uberbookreader and communications device, they are amazing, but as a paper replacement, I'd wait a year or two. I'm certain that you will have a battle with less technical folks in letting students read books on the device, but take notes on smelly ol' paper, but when they see the benefits, I'm sure they'll come around. Good luck! :-)

Re:Fashion accessory

[itsdapead]

Seriously, what is the point of a tablet device?

• Browse the web, check email, read ebooks, watch video, play casual games while sitting in a comfy chair.
• Email/web/games/ebooks on the move - much better than a phone-sized device, still more portable than a netbook.
• Take notes in meetings & have all the papers you need cached in DropBox - far less obtrusive than having a laptop on the desk in front of you. You can even run presentations from it.

Sensible combination is a tablet plus a full-fat laptop if/when you need it and maybe a phone that just, you know, makes phone calls. Tablets are definitely second/third systems. The success of the iPad, c.f. earlier tablet PCs and netbooks is partly because it doesn't even pretend to be a "primary computer" replacement.

If someone is compelling you to use a tablet for a job that demands a full-fat PC then blame them, not the technology.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Anonymous Coward]

I've played around with one of the test devices and I can't imagine actually getting work done on these things.

Perhaps this is a failure of imagination?

And, it depends on what you mean by "work". If you mean running statistical simulations in R, that won't happen. If you mean research, that's obviously possible and easy. If you mean writing a term paper, that depends on you and perhaps accessories you're willing to use (such as a keyboard). I pretty much only use my laptop now for running techie programs (R, gretl, X12-ARIMA, etc) and writing papers that are longer than a few pages.

The iPad is more comfortable for reading/researching, way easier to take with me, lasts way longer without external power, etc, etc.

Re:Fashion accessory

[lapagecp]

Just because you don't see the point doesn't mean there isn't one. We have a few Ipads at the office and I can tell you they are great for meetings. We have our agenda's on google docs, so I can pull up the agenda and follow along, check my mail, send mail. I think tablets are what laptops were suppose to be. A portable computer. Sure its not as nice as my desktop but it gets the job done when I am not near mine. I honestly think laptops are a fad. I have a desktop at home and another at work. What I need is a smartphone with a bigger screen and better specs. I was just over at the in laws. Mother in law had a netbook, I had a netbook, sister and law had an ipad (yeah we don't talk much over there). I had to plug my netbook in when my battery died, and I was looking at the ipad with envy the whole time. If I had brought the family laptop I still would have been starring at the ipad with envy, its lighter, and the form factor is better for use in the recliner.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Anonymous Coward]

shame to see an educator or student missing a golden opportunity to embrace a new tevhnology form.

Such small minds we have in acadamia. We already use themextensively in my manufacturing plants both in the US and Thailand. Seems we are more progressive then schools. Then again.....when we see an advantage we take it. Part of my stay on top and out of debt belief that has allowed us to weather the financial storms of the last 2 years and actually grow and increae profits considerably. We have even increased the numbers i employ in the US. Shame you cant see such things....and you wonder why the US education system is in such horrible shape.....because of small minded people.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds more like you are showing your age.

Re:Fashion accessory

[DaracMarjal]

What's the point of a Tablet? Well the market for PDAs has basically disappeared. If you don't fancy paying ~£800 for your handheld computer (£30/month contract for 2 years plus the initial cost), Tablets are the way to go.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Anonymous Coward]

What's this talk about technology?

What is the point of your cable box? What is the point of your PS3? Wii? Gameboy?

When the iPad came out I didn't think it would do that great because its essentially useless as a productivity tool* and $500-600 seemed expensive for a toy. Well, a lot of people can afford $500-600 toys - especially if it doubles as a status symbol. And I'm sure a lot of the pre-iPad tablet makers are kicking themselves for trying to make productivity tools instead of entertainment devices.

*cue the 1-2 people with jobs where there is a genuine use case for the iPad and the dozens of people who contort their jobs to fit the iPad.

Re:Fashion accessory

[H0p313ss]

What's this talk about technology? The iPad is a fashion accessory. Android tablets are not fashionable.

I have to disagree, but that might be because I've been using an iPad as my primary personal email tool, casual web brower, book reader and media device since the first day they were available in Canada. The iPad may have an amazing wow factor, but it's not about fashion. The people I've seen who are the most enthusiastic about it are actually the geeks.

What's this talk about technology? The iPad is a fashion accessory. Android tablets are not fashionable.

Seriously, what is the point of a tablet device? At the high school I work at, we're going to be made to use iPad's starting in April. I've played around with one of the test devices and I can't imagine actually getting work done on these things. I'm dreading April. If it were an Android device it wouldn't be any better.

What I've been telling people is that it is an amazingly cool geek toy but that it's not ready for the mainstream YET, I can't see the point of any serious deployment of the first edition iPad. But I have every confidence that in five years we'll be looking back at 2010 and the iPad the same way we looked back at 1984 and the Mac. Find a geek old enough to remember (over 38?) and ask about the first time he played with a Mac. Watch how their eyes light up. I'm seeing that effect now with everyone who think of themselves as a computer geek when they try the iPad.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Max Romantschuk]

What's this talk about technology? The iPad is a fashion accessory. Android tablets are not fashionable.

You make yourself sound like you are rather clueless about the huge potential a multitouch UI has for realtime applications. Would I want an iPad for my software development day job? Hell no. But would I want one for having much more intuitive control over music software. Definitely.

Just have a look at what people have been doing with TouchOSC:
http://hexler.net/software/touchosc

(Not that I'm ready to pay for a closed platform like that, want is not the same as willing to buy. ;)

Re:Fashion accessory

[frnic]

"Seriously, what is the point of a tablet device? At the high school I work at, we're going to be made to use iPad's starting in April. I've played around with one of the test devices and I can't imagine actually getting work done on these things. I'm dreading April. If it were an Android device it wouldn't be any better."

Such a Slashdot like comment. Since YOU don't find a iPad useful, everyone - millions of consumers - must be wrong or simply satisfying a need for a "fashion accessory".

We, my wife and I, both have iPads and iPod Touchs. Each serving a place in our daily lives - doing REAL useful WORK. We are both programmers and would never consider programing on an iPad, but here is the shocker - there is more to life than programming! We play on our iPads, our iPads replaced our voice navigation systems, they allow us to easily contact our email and text our friends while out and about. We can make reservations on the road while out of town and away from out workstations. We use them for notepads and to-do lists, and a multitude of other real life uses.

And for "getting work done" - that all depends on what kind of work you need done. They are not workstations, true, but time will tell about where they fit into the work ecosystem - I consider them to be PDA's on steroids right now, but I also expect to see a stylus and something like the Newton in a pad format soon - if not from Apple, then someone - and the addition of the stylus will destroy the laptop market.

And don't tell me about laptops can do all that - what a joke, forcing a keyboard on me takes room and is awkward at best compared to the simple pad.

Finally remember this is a first generation device - Apple has a history of releasing the minimum device possible to start - that allows then to double dip with the faithful buying later "improved" models, and to wait and see what the market says is needed, rather than trying to second guess every detail on the initial release - the strategy seems to work.

Re:Fashion accessory

[flogger]

angus77, I'd really like to ask you some questions about this and your school.

• How'd your school secure the funding?
• How much training has the staff been given?
• How much training for students?
• What have been some security thoughts with this implementation?
• How much hardware infrastructure (wifi) had to be added?
• What insurance/damage policies are you putting in place?
• What selection process are you using for software adoption?

If you see this and would rather someone else from your district answer, I'll put my contact info out here for you.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Anonymous Coward]

If you had asked me what the point was a year ago, I wouldn't have had a good answer. My first iPad was a WiFi only model, one I bought with the intention of giving it as a gift. I used it first for 3 weeks, and then had my preorder in for a 3G device. For me, a tablet has been an excellent consumption device. It's how I read my Google Reader feed (in Flipboard), read books (in iBooks or Kindle), watch videos (Netflix, synced videos, AirVideo, ABC), browse the web sometimes, and read some of my e-mail. Games are also quite a bit of fun on it, and overall it is a different experience then on a notebook. At work, web, mail, and PDF reading came in most handy. Most of the tools I use are web based, so it was easy to bring them up on the iPad then carry it off somewhere else to talk to someone about something.

Getting work done on one though is something I can't comment on because I haven't tried to. I bought the iWork apps, but I do so little of that in general, so I have no good or bad advice there. I would recommend getting a real keyboard though if you plan on writing anything of length on it. With that, I could see it as being a somewhat viable alternative to a notebook.

One of the best advantages the iPad has had over other types of devices for me is the battery life. It's so good, I don't bother micromanaging it at all. I simply charge it once or twice a week at most, and thats with heavy daily use for at least a few hours.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Anonymous Coward]

Make to sure report back *if* it isn't the failure you're expecting..

Re:Fashion accessory

[adisakp]

What's this talk about technology? The iPad is a fashion accessory. Android tablets are not fashionable.

I wish I could mod you up. Seriously, non-geeks buy an iPad and think the device is not only sexy, but that they look cool checking their e-mail on an iPad at Starbucks. Only the pocket-protector geeks get excited that the ugly crap they are shoveling out as cheap Android tablets have an open source OS. Heck, even most of the hip geeks still would prefer a usable iPad to your typical Android Tablet with fewer features running an old OS.

Re:Fashion accessory

[angus77]

I've got a 10" EeePC. With Debian on it, the battery lasts 7 hours. At my job, I do copious amounts of typing.

If this thing had a flip/touch screen, I can't imagine what an iPad could possibly have over it. Not being able to type properly (and not being able to use Emacs!) are a BIG deal for me.

Re:Fashion accessory

[angus77]

Only morons choose tools and then go to look for jobs to do with them.

That's not a nice thing to say about my bosses!

Re:Fashion accessory

[angus77]

I didn't make this clear in my original post, and I should have:

We're not being given iPads in addition to the laptops and desktops we already have. We're being made to remove all our desktops/laptops and use the iPads instead (for "security" reasons).

What I use my EeePC (10" screen, same as the iPad, so no advantage to the tablet there!) for is to type documents and worksheets, check things out on the internet to support what I'm typing, and to print. I do a lot of typing. In Emacs with LaTeX. The iPad will be a nightmare.

Re:Fashion accessory

[angus77]

angus77, I'd really like to ask you some questions about this and your school.

• How'd your school secure the funding?

They're private (a quite large percentage of Japanese schools are), and the iPads are for the teachers, not students.

How much training has the staff been given?

None so far, but we don't get them until April.

How much training for students?

None, and they won't be getting any.

What have been some security thoughts with this implementation?

Apparently it's more secure than Windows. If it goes deeper than that, the info hasn't been passed on to me.

How much hardware infrastructure (wifi) had to be added?

I don't know. We're moving to a new location in April, and I haven't been inside the new building yet.

What insurance/damage policies are you putting in place?

I have no idea, but I assume you mean for when students steal or break the devices. Students won't be getting them.

What selection process are you using for software adoption?

I haven't a clue.

If you see this and would rather someone else from your district answer, I'll put my contact info out here for you.

That's very nice of you, but given that the school's (a) Japanese and (b) a private corporation I doubt you'll have much influence. I'm really sorry, I should've made that more clear in my original post. Really, it's a bureaucracy thing more than a technology thing. I was just venting.

Re:Fashion accessory

[angus77]

Find a geek old enough to remember (over 38?) and ask about the first time he played with a Mac. Watch how their eyes light up.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't recall aver having liked the Mac back in the '80s. I wanted an a Amiga but didn't have the money, so I had to stick with my Vic-20.

I'm seeing that effect now with everyone who think of themselves as a computer geek when they try the iPad.

I'm seeing my wife and the other girl at her work laughing at their boss who bought one and couldn't even figure out how it worked. So much for that "intuitive interface"!

Re:Fashion accessory

[flogger]

Thanks for the feedback! I appreciate it. I also teach and am looking into getting a tablet of some sort to help with various tasks such as attendance, lesson planning, and assorted record-keeping. Have a great day! al

Re:Fashion accessory

[gmhowell]

So get a USB or BT keyboard and ssh into some place with an install of emacs. With the time you no longer spend bitching on the internet, you should be able to cure cancer and bring peace to the middle east.

Re:Fashion accessory

[angus77]

Somebody mod this troll insightful!

Re:Fashion accessory

[gmhowell]

Somebody mod this troll insightful!

Why stop now? They've been doing it for more than a decade.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I wrote my book for Jossey Bass largely on my iPad. My sevent grader uses it as his school computer with an external keyboard. iHomework keeps his agenda book digital; the flashcard apps help him study, aduionotes helps him take notes in class. And as a bonus, he emails his work to teachers, keeping him from losing his homework for a change.
Instant on and 10 hr battery life are the killer features for school as well.

Re:Fashion accessory

[Ol Olsoc]

Unless it already exists, how about an app that you use to read music and play it on your instrument, with the Ipad changing the note(s) color when you hit the right note? Should be able to do timing and all sorts of other stuff. Might be nice for newbies.

Re:Not only tablets...AC-100 is also an epic failu

[Anonymous Coward]

Flash may be evil because it uses a java-based platform, but that doesn't mean that it's not useful. Think of all of the quality gray-area TV programming you could be watching with flash capabilities!

I completely agree with your second statement. Verizon brought down their price and they didn't want to match the price. Not to mention the shitty unresponsiveness of their tablet and terribly broken hardware with crap battery life. I swear to god the reviews are rigged and I'm no the only one hating my tab.

You mean like the iPad?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Even though it's fast, well-designed, and comes with a decent Android implementation, its functionality is limited to that of an Android smartphone. "

You mean like the iPad? I mean it's OS is almost exactly the same as the iPhone/iPod touch, and that is supposed to be a selling point - but the inability to have two apps open on the screen at once, combined with lack of user access to a real filesystam mean that it's not really suitable for "real work".

Why Wait?

[Wingsy]

"So here's to hoping that Honeycomb's functionality make up for the lost ground."

Not sure why you'd want to wait around and hope Honeycomb will get you there one day when you could just cut to the chase and get an iPad today (or next month if you want the next gen).

Re:Why Wait?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah we don't need competition in the free market. Why hope a competitor can come out and help drive prices and sales when we could just dream for a future filled with an even brighter monopoly by a company who would happily install a mind control device into every customers brain were it technically feasible. Why wait for the year of the Linux desktop when you can install Windows 7 today! Why hope that the telecom cartels are broken when you could pay twice as much for the newly introduced half the size download cap complete with no net neutrality.

I for one welcome our new anal raping steve jobs lookalike overlord.

How soon we forget

[deadcrow]

I have an Archos 101 and an Archos 32, And I love them. Sure there are a few issues with the constant upgrades to the OS, but even Apple didn't have cut and paste at first. How soon we forget.

Archos: resistive, no official Market access

[tepples]

Like the Coby Kyros reviewed in the article, Archos products have resistive touch screens, making them more suited to a stylus than a finger. (I have an Archos 43, with which I use my DS Lite stylus.) Also like the Kyros, Archos products come with AppsLib and lack access to Google's Android Market without hacks such as ArcTools that Google could cease-and-desist at any moment the way it C&D'd Google Apps in CyanogenMod.

Re:Archos: resistive, no official Market access

[Drethon]

Erm, the latest Archos products have capacitive screens or are the too new since they were released in the past few months? http://www.archos.com/products/ta/archos_101it/index.html?country=us&lang=en

Re:Archos: resistive, no official Market access

[tepples]

Maybe the Archos 101 has a capacitive touch screen, but I've never seen one in stores in my city to try it. The touch screen on my Archos 43 and on the Archos 7 that I tried in a Best Buy store are definitely resistive. Touches take substantially more pressure than on my laptop's trackpad or my aunt's iPhone, and fingernails and PDA styluses work despite not working on an iPhone. But frankly, I'm used to a stylus from all the years of playing Nintendo DS.

Re:Archos: resistive, no official Market access

[macemoneta]

The Archos 7 is a previous generation device. The current version in a 7" form factor is the Archos 70. I have the 101 and it's an amazing product for the price.

Re:Archos: resistive, no official Market access

[Anonymous Coward]

You have an old generation device, their new Archos line ( I have an Archos 101) is indeed capacitive and a good competitor to my iPad.

Re:Archos: resistive, no official Market access

[Anonymous Coward]

The larger current Archos devices from 7" upwards have a proper capacitve touchscreens. I have an Archos 70 and am very satisfied with it, especially after the latest update.

Re:Archos: resistive, no official Market access

[Morose]

So, stop making claims to things you don't know about or take two seconds to research the at the Archos website. Only the smaller Archos Tablets (43 and below) have a resistive touchscreen. Archos 70 and Archos 101 (the second of which I own) both have capacitive touchscreens. With the latest firmware basic overclocking is built into the firmware and Archos has released 4 firmware updates since it was released. Google Apps is trivial to install, just find and download the latest hacked .apk and sideload it like any other app. The performance is excellent (although at first it sucked, the newer firmware helps that) and the battery life is great too.

Re:Archos: resistive, no official Market access

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, after switching from an iPod Touch to an Archos 5 IT w/ Android, I am praying that Archos never switches to capacitive touch screens. My finger works just fine on the Archos screen - but I can also grab anything that happens to be nearby (usually a pencil from my pocket) to use as a stylus when I need the precision. With a capacitive screen, if you need precision...well, you're SOL. Even with a stylus, it seems they just can't recognize any press smaller than a square centimeter. Which is especially obnoxious considering that, when the iPod Touch is oriented vertically, the keyboard's keys are smaller than the smallest area the screen can recognize...but I guess that's kinda irrelevant since this is about tablets...

Point is, if Archos switches to capacitive screens, I may be looking for a new brand of PMP. I just can't see a single benefit to capacitive screens.

Re:Archos: resistive, no official Market access

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the current larger Archos tablets(models 70 and 101) are capacitive touchscreens.

Re:Archos: resistive, no official Market access

[Anonymous Coward]

WRONG

Archos 70 + 101 both capacitive touch screens

http://www.archos.com/products/ta/archos_70it/specs.html?country=us&lang=en
http://www.archos.com/products/ta/archos_101it/specs.html?country=us&lang=en

Re:Archos: resistive, no official Market access

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.archos.com/products/ta/archos_101it/specs.html?country=us&lang=en - "High resolution capacitive multitouch screen"
http://www.archos.com/products/ta/archos_70it/specs.html?country=us&lang=en - "Capacitive multitouch screen "

You could also say the iPad was rushed.

[brunes69]

It has no front or back camera and thus is a non-starter as a netbook replacement, since you can't do video calls with it.

The lack of normal, mini, or micro USB without a giant dongle is also a big problem.

The fact that these things are going to be addressed in the iPad 2 just points to the fact that they should have been included in the iPad 1.

You can point out the same kinds of batently obvious things (like video recording and cut / paste) lacking from the first iPhone OS.

No V1 product is really ready, the difference is that Apple has the marketing and fan-base to sell a V 1.0 product before it actually is.

Re:You could also say the iPad was rushed.

[MistrBlank]

Say it with me: "VIDEO CALLS ARE NOT IMPORTANT TO EVERYONE"

I have an iPad, I don't miss the camera on either side of it. And if I did, I'd recognize that the device has bluetooth and can fill the need with an external bluetooth or network based web camera.

Lack of USB is not a problem either and don't ever expect to see one on an iPad.

I want a car, I don't want your faster horse.

Re:You could also say the iPad was rushed.

[cfriedt]

I agree - the iPad was shipped prematurely

Hopefully I'm the first to point this out, and I'm not repeating well-known facts, but Apple isn't exactly innovating with the iPad. It is an iPhone / iPodTouch with a bigger screen that lets the muscle of the Cortex chip inside of it atrophie... Does is even multi-task?

Apple is also notorious at introducing old technology to consumers with better aesthetic packaging (ahem... macbook), and the iPad is no exception. They are using the wrong display technology for a tablet. Maybe when the iPad2 comes out, they'll realize that they should be using Pixel-Qi technology. Just as they have strong-armed entire industries in the past (e.g. the GUI, OpenStep, fixing the price on display technology, claiming they invented multi-touch, various RF-related things, applications on a mobile wireless device, yada yada yada), I would not be surprised if they bought-out Pixel-Qi and prevented other companies from using the tech.

Yes, they are Pirates, and yes, that is what Pirates do.

Luckily, at least one company sporting Android has the right idea so-far.

"Good artists copy. Great artists steal." (quote from Pablo Picasso... subsequently stolen by Steve Jobs)

Re:You could also say the iPad was rushed.

[brunes69]

Video calls are very important to the netbook and laptop market. Saying they are "not important to everyone" is like saying "ebook reading is not important to everyone", certainly a true statement but a pretty ridiculous statement to make if you were making it about a tablet PC.

The same goes for USB ports.

The very fact that Apple is including these in the iPad 2 is plain evidence that the market told them that they were lacking in the iPad.

Re:You could also say the iPad was rushed.

[BasilBrush]

There's a difference between a device that doesn't have ever feature you wished it did and

"flimsy hardware, low-quality resistive touch screens, serious display resolution issues, and poorly skinned or old Android versions with limited or non-existent access to apps." ...which is the accusation made of the Android tablets in TFA.

The iPad was certainly ready. Android tablets, apparently not.

Re:You could also say the iPad was rushed.

[BasilBrush]

The very fact that Apple is including these in the iPad 2 is plain evidence that the market told them that they were lacking in the iPad.

No. Cameras will have been on the roadmap for iPad 2 before the iPad 1 was even on the market. They can't put everything into a version 1 product because:

1) It'll raise the price point. and/or
2) Reduce battery life (by reducing the space left in the device for a battery). and
3) Leave them no where to go with subsequent years releases.

iPad has outsold all projections. Clearly not everyone thinks cameras and USB port are as essential to a tablet as you do.

Re:You could also say the iPad was rushed.

[BasilBrush]

It is an iPhone / iPodTouch with a bigger screen that lets the muscle of the Cortex chip inside of it atrophie...

Huh?

Does is even multi-task?

Yes.

They are using the wrong display technology for a tablet. Maybe when the iPad2 comes out, they'll realize that they should be using Pixel-Qi technology.

I've no doubt they investigated all possible sources of screens suitable for an iPad at the time when they were developing the iPad. Maybe Pixel-Qi was unproven at the time, or wasn't available in sufficient quantities, or not available from at least 2 suppliers, or maybe it's not as good as you think, or maybe it's too expensive... or... or... Whatever it was, it'll have been a rational choice of what screen to use not a "Oh, we didn't realise" situation.

Luckily, at least one company sporting Android has the right idea so-far.

Right, so you're comparing a device launched nearly a year after the iPad, and is only available in sample quantities, and is more expensive than the iPad when shipped with the Pixel-QI screen.

That Pixel-QI screen makes a hell of a difference to the price: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_tablet

Re:You could also say the iPad was rushed.

[arkane1234]

Does is even multi-task?

Do you even know anything about something before you berate it? christ.

Re:You could also say the iPad was rushed.

[c 0xFF]

1) The Galaxy Tab's camera cost a whopping $8. Development costs should be minimal, as the iPhone has a camera.
2) Have you seen how much wasted space there is in an iPad? You could put a HUGE camera on there with no effect on battery life.
3) Ahhh.... that sounds much better.

Leaving out a camera was not done for any technical or cost reason, but to give them something significant to add in the next version. And since their competition was nil, it made sense. No tablet could ever be released anymore without a camera, except maybe ultra-low budget tablets.

Cameras and USB ports aren't absolutely essential to a tablet, but their presence will still be missed by buyers and reviewers.

Virgin Mobile: Because I've never been laid

[tepples]

everyone needs a phone. It's an essential device.

Everyone needs a phone, but not everyone needs a smart phone. I carry an Android PDA made by Archos and a cheap Audiovox flip phone whose service costs just over $60 per year through Virgin Mobile USA. Service for most smartphones costs that much a month.

smartphone functionality

[Anonymous Coward]

"... its functionality is limited to that of an Android smartphone."
iPad is also just a bigger iPhone: iOS on a bigger screen.

Re:smartphone functionality

[arkane1234]

and iPhone is just a smaller iPad.
you can take it both ways... the difference is that an iphone is not 10 inches in size, and does not have some of the capabilities of an iPad.

Disappointing

[rudy_wayne]

The iPad is a cute toy, but its locked-down severely limited design makes it useless for too many things.. This is a great opportunity for competitors to produce something better. Unfortunately, all we are getting is cheap crap as companies rush to put out tablets that more or less look like an iPad and will hopefully be bought by people too stupid to know the difference and who only care that it's cheaper than an iPad.

Re:Disappointing

[JoeytheSquid]

I think you may be missing the point. The iPad has been successful in part *because* it's locked down and limited. It might not make much sense to advanced users like me and you, but people like my family who don't own or use computers love the device. It's simple, easy to use and performs only a handful of functions. They've been wanting a general computing device like the iPad for years.

And the competition just doesn't get it. Froyo was a passible solution (I owned two froyo tablets) and arguably suffered more from bad apps and bad hardware than a bad interface. However honeycomb is incredibly complex, bordering even on the features of a desktop OS. While that might appeal to advanced users, it's certainly not going to appeal to the general end user. Heck, I consider myself an advanced user and I don't even like honeycomb. For that level of complexity, I might as well just use a laptop.

Re:Disappointing

[H0p313ss]

The iPad is a cute toy, but its locked-down severely limited design makes it useless for too many things..

I sort of half agree, but the half I agree with is that it is actually useful for everything else. Yes, lots it can't do but what it does do is pretty damn cool.

This is a great opportunity for competitors to produce something better. Unfortunately, all we are getting is cheap crap as companies rush to put out tablets that more or less look like an iPad and will hopefully be bought by people too stupid to know the difference and who only care that it's cheaper than an iPad.

Completely agree. I have said elsewhere that the only way to beat Apple at this game is to be better on every dimension, it has to be a better product, a better user experience and have even more wow factor than anything Apple is doing. What the android tablets are so far is like sending a college varsity baseball team to play soccer against Real Madrid.

Re:Disappointing

[arkane1234]

As a techie I have an ipad. I'm impressed with it simply because I know that whatever I get for it will work. No worries about anything... at all.
For what it's used for, it's not worth the headache. It performs more than a handful of functions, thankfully.

Re:Disappointing

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPad is a cute toy, but its locked-down severely limited design makes it useless for too many things.. This is a great opportunity for competitors to produce something better. Unfortunately, all we are getting is cheap crap as companies rush to put out tablets that more or less look like an iPad and will hopefully be bought by people too stupid to know the difference and who only care that it's cheaper than an iPad.

Yawn. Locked down, severely limited, blah blah. Damn thing works well, enough of the 'its not open so 0.1% of the population cant fuck with it' BS.
And anyway, what do you care if its 'locked' - you already described it as a cute toy - do you need to hack your teddy bear?

Re:Disappointing

[multipartmixed]

To hell with the computing neophytes in the house, some of us grey-beard hackers like iPads, too.

Why? No pissing around! Buy it, turn it on, download apps, and use them.

If it doesn't do what you want it to, you shouldn't have bought it. It's an appliance, not a dev platform.

  I've screwed with R&D hardware and software all my career, customized a bajillion things, and when I go home... I just want to use stuff. Not fix it. Not tweak it. Just use it.

Why the hell is there some much hate for just wanting to use the damn device as shipped?

Re:Disappointing

[JoeytheSquid]

I think the iPad is a fine device. In fact, depending on what Palm announces this week and what the iPad refresh looks like, I may get one this year. However there's no doubt that it carries a stigma among the geek-crowd. As if ease of use were some mortal sin and real devices have to be hard to use. Sure, I love to tinker but when it comes to my main computing devices I just don't want to be bothered anymore. Maybe I'm getting old, but my days of installing Linux on a TC1100 are long gone. Now I just want something simple that works.

Funny that only Apple gets what the consumer wants

[master_p]

It's very funny: Apple caught everyone by surprise when they released the iPhone, even if it was well known what the iPhone would be prior to its release.

Then Apple caught everyone by surprise again, despite the fact that it was well known what the iPad would be, and despite the fact that computing pads were regularly shown in sci-fi televised series (and the public knew what it was about).

Now that everyone else sees Apple eating their cake, they rush their products to the market...

The CDD is the biggest issue

[DrXym]

Android has a compatible device document which determines if a device is eligible to receive the marketplace app and by extension all the google apps. Features like compass, GPS, camera etc. were all mandatory in So the market has split into two camps. The el cheapo tablets and Archos tablets sit in the incompatible camp and suffer from lack of marketplace. The Galaxy Tab and Dell Streak sit in the compatible camp but suffer from bloated price which is unattractive to buyers. This probably explains why the Tab is suffering so much. Apparently the 2.3 CDD loosens up some requirements, but it's too late for most tablets. Perhaps the Archos devices might be able to upgrade to 2.3 become certified.

So I hope when Android 3.0 turns up that in addition to making the UI more friendly it also addresses the CDD. GPS, compass etc. are nice to haves. The basic tablet spec should not force them. But perhaps it should specify extended profiles for PMPs, ereaders etc. For example, perhaps a "media" tablet profile might mandate more codecs, while an ereader tablet might specify certain screen visibility characteristics, possibly even allowing for e-ink displays.

The point being that Android is growing up but the CDD has long been an impediment and it needs to be improved.

Re:The CDD is the biggest issue

[tsj5j]

But one can also understand Google's stance when it comes to this issue.

There have already been numerous complaints how the Google App Market is terrible fractured and hence not appealing due to the widely varying hardware configurations and OS versions each Android device is currently using.
Loosening the CCD and removal of more compulsory hardware requirements will only fracture the App Market even more.

Here are some of the forseeable effects:
- Consumers are pissed how wonderful-app-X is not available for their tablet because it lacks a camera or a GPS.
- Developers are pissed at how limited their target audience is if they wish to fully utilize the hardware of the device due to the fragmented nature of the platform.

As a result, developers' creativity with applications are limited, consumers buy less applications, the vicious cycle continues and the App Market can't ever match up to the Apple App Store.

Re:The CDD is the biggest issue

[MorpheousMarty]

The hardware will get cheaper. The high requirements in the CDD are a way to keep the Android ecosystem from going too low end, which is a real concern. In 2 years you can fully expect a to see Nexus One level device for under $200, unlocked, from a lower end manufacturer. And that is when Android will hit a powerful stride. Lowering the requirements now would only make handicapped devices more acceptable now.

This is a gross oversimplification of the situation, but if you look at what is happening to all the in house OSes from Samsung, LG and Nokia, you can see how having devices which don't meet today's expectations will hurt Android in the medium and long run.

Re:The CDD is the biggest issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Good points here, but they highlight the exact problem that causes people to buy iPads over Android powered devices - Fragmentation.

When you go grab an iPad, you have two decisions to make: do you want 3G and how much storage. That's it. It's easy.

When I look at the Android tablets coming out, the feature sets are all over the place. Expensive tablets have less functionality than cheap ones. Cheap tablets have outdated OSs. The Android store is all over the place. I can buy a Gingerbread tablet that won't be compatible with Honeycomb.

The fact that there even HAS TO BE a "compatible device document" for Android is why it will continue to suffer in less than tech-savvy markets, where people are uncomfortable purchasing things they don't fully understand.

Re:The CDD is the biggest issue

[DrXym]

I don't really see the issue. Every app must already declare what permissions it needs, what API level it supports, what screen sizes it supports, what features (hardware) it uses or requires. It does this in a manifest file that is part of the apk. When you fire up Marketplace it already filters out apps based on these declarations. So if my game requires a 800x400 screen it won't appear to someone looking from a lower res device. If I look at marketplace from my 1.6 device I won't see apps that use 2.1 APIs.

The same applies to hardware. For example Google Maps might say in its manifest that it can use GPS but doesn't require GPS and will therefore work with reduced functionality from a device with no GPS.

So basically there is no longer any reason to make features like GPS, compass, accelerometers, NFC, etc mandatory. Apps which absolutely need these things can say so. Devices which don't supply them won't see them in the market place. That probably still leaves 95% of the app store intact because most apps don't need such sweeping use of hardware in the first place.

It should also be a good thing in general because it encourages apps to ask for the bare minimum of permissions and not a thing more. Otherwise they risk losing potential customers.

Re:The CDD is the biggest issue

[DrXym]

That fragmentation is called choice. Want a 7" tablet? You got it. Want a tablet which can play any media format you can throw at it? You got it. Want an cheapo tablet for ereading? You got it. Tablets from all manufacturers at all price points available for sale from countless online stores. All competing on price, performance, features, value, form factor, build quality, support.

At the end of the day they're still android apps and they all share a large common amount of functionality. That's what the CDD is there to ensure. Problem is that the existing CDD was designed for phone handsets and it needs to be revised.

The tablet price point is all wrong

[maxm]

A tablet is basically a netbook where the keyboard has been traded for a touch screen. But with less ram and storage. So they should at least be less expensive than a netbook. But they seem to cost at least twice that. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Re:The tablet price point is all wrong

[DrXym]

Exactly. Manufacturers are taking the piss with their prices at the minute. I read today that the Motorola Xoom will cost $800. I cannot even fathom where they plucked that figure from unless they've stuck an absurdly high MSRP to make the under-contract Xooms look ever-so more reasonable at $400 or whatever.

I have a Galaxy Tab....

[eggoeater]

I have a tab and I love it.
Would someone mind telling me what wonderful features I'm missing??
If you want to talk about missing features then talk about the iPad. The Tab has two cameras, sd slot, and is easily root-able.
The only thing I'm disappointed in is the fact that flash on a web site will pretty much bring the browser to a halt. e.g. I can't get a video to play on Vimeo.com, I have to use the unofficial app which is buggy as hell to make it work.

Re:I have a Galaxy Tab....

[H0p313ss]

I'm curious... what word processor and spreadsheet are the default for Android tablets? Does it handle .doc and .odt ?

Re:Not only tablets...AC-100 is also an epic failu

[wesgray]

Tech savvy? Tech savvy people recognize and choose products that actually function as designed.

Interesting difference of opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

Born too soon? I think most Nook Color owners and XDA developers would disagree. Barnes & Noble, on the other hand...

Re:Not only tablets...AC-100 is also an epic failu

[Krachmanikov]

Yeah, the Toshiba firmware is politely spoken, unusable. If you want access to the Google market place plus CIFS access to your home servers plus Flash, etc., you seriously should consider to download a modified Android version and install it on your Folio. Like this one here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=846199.

Re:Not only tablets...AC-100 is also an epic failu

[Anonymous Coward]

The price was reduced by over 70%. Perhaps that explains my irrational, "non-tech-savvy" behavior.

Android itself was not ready

[thetartanavenger]

Reading through the comments, I'm surprised that no one has even mentioned the maturity of android. It's designed for smartphones, period. Until Google come out with their updated version of Android with a customised ui and functionality, it's still going to flop. Did Apple release a tablet with the same os as on their phones? No, they customized it, added to it and made it suitable for tablets.

There have been some interesting additions to the os that make it slightly more appealing for a tablet, like the work for the notion ink adam, but even that seems like a hack that requires specialized versions of the apps. Until you get an os that is designed for it from the start, and have the developers writing programs for it that will work on every tablet, they're going be a let down every time. Fortunately, that time appears to be coming.

That Kettle is Black!

[morari]

Even the Samsung Galaxy Tab came well before its time. Even though it's fast, well-designed, and comes with a decent Android implementation, its functionality is limited to that of an Android smartphone.

That still sounds like a lot more functionality than any iToy has... :P

Re:That Kettle is Black!

[Merk42]

And 7 Million + people don't care

Re:That Kettle is Black!

[yacc143]

Sorry, somebody else posted 2 millions as a reliable number, LOL. Anyway, guess that means slightly over 6 billion do care? Wow, logic for retards.

I mean, how do you know how many iToys there are? Not even Apple wants you to know, and worse, they even make reverse engineering the serial no via statistical methods hard.

Btw, did somebody mention, that on the smartphone market, Android has outgrown all other actors? How can Apple even try to compete in the long run, especially as it obviously does not cater to some segments (e.g. the ones that care about controlling their own devices, people that want to use most websites (e.g. Flash, as somebody managed to survey the situation, 10 of 10 websites of the top 10 brands require Flash unconditionally), ...

So basically, as with the iPhone Apple will loose the Tablet space the same way, just by the numbers. As some economists have found out, Google has unleashed a monster with Android, but they focused on how Google will not necessarily profit from that. Guess what they've forgot is that Google already profits from avoiding a vendor-lock-in to some other vendor, so even if the "mobile OS" is a free commodity, it's a strategic gain for Google.

Re:That Kettle is Black!

[Merk42]

I don't know where the "2 millions" came from regarding iPads, but yeah looks like it's not 7 million iPads. It's 7 million iPads IN Q4 2010 ALONE. I could find sources, about how many iPads have been sold, but you'll just ignore them because they don't fit with your vision.

I think that Apple will compete just fine, Flash is one thing, but as far as "controlling their own devices", a lot of people (the majority?) DO NOT CARE.

Please show me sources where Android is selling far better in tablets (remember the actual article is about tablets). When you can't, you'll just accuse me of being an Apple fanboy. If I were, it's pretty strange that I own an Android phone, and would sooner get an Android tablet than an iPad.

iPad has USB and video out

[SuperKendall]

If the more complex things are good things like USB, HDMI, camera etc. then it is a good thing

Not if they are just more complex.

The iPad also has a USB connector - the dock. Through it I could hook a keyboard or other things. But because it's a dock connector there are also specialized things I can attach - or I can use Bluetooth to connect to common things that most people would use USB for.

As for HDMI, rather than hunting down cables and such (although the iPad does have a video out cable) you can simple use AirPlay to play HD video over your local network. Why is it "better" to use a cable that most people will not have and never buy? That HDMI port cost money to include that raised the price of the device, was that "better" also?

All complexity has cost and you are ignoring how many people a feature benefits in the rush to have more checkmarks on a list.

Re:iPad has USB and video out

[tabrnaker]

So you are saying that having USB on an external connecter that you would have to lug around with you is better than having it built in? Or that adding HDMI out would add way to much to the cost and people don't want to spend some 5-20$ for an HDMI cable when they can just spend orders of magnitude more to buy an AirPlay?

Step away from the kool-aid.

Re:iPad has USB and video out

[SuperKendall]

So you are saying that having USB on an external connecter that you would have to lug around with you is better than having it built in?

I am saying if you have to drag around a cable anyway a small adaptor is hardly adding bulk.

Or that adding HDMI out would add way to much to the cost and people don't want to spend some 5-20$ for an HDMI cable when they can just spend orders of magnitude more to buy an AirPlay?

Most people don't know enough to buy cables online and HDMI cables in stores are damn expensive. Between the device costing more and the standard cable cost, you are almost at the price of an AppleTV. But really as I said you can airplay to any computer. I don't know about you but pretty much everyone I know, has a computer...

Re:iPad has USB and video out

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about you but you really don't have to carry around an hdmi cable. If you're at home, then the cable is there. If you go to somebodies house that has an hdmi capable tv, more than likely they will have a cable, whether it's mini-hdmi is another question, but mini ->hdmi is a pretty small adapter.

If i'm traveling, hdmi cable is a lot smaller to carry than AppleTv.

If i'm out on the go and somebody hands me an external usb or sd card, it's so much easier to just plug it in instead of whipping out a dock which might need to be plugged in to a socket (i don't know if it needs to or not).

I have to admit, i really wanted to buy an iPad until i found out how hard it is to actually use. Regardless of connectors, why can't you download a pdf from the internet with the tablet and view it? I love the form factor for reading tech pdf's, but do i have to have so much screen real estate wasted on a 1/2" border of whitespace just because some designer thought it would be cool if it looked like an actual book? Who really want's to convert all their media to the small restricted formats that the iPad can play?

As for everybody have a computer, yes, any tablet with wifi and/or usb can connect to that computer regardless of what operating system it is using and play any content stored on it, not the same story with the iPad.

Of course, the iPad is pretty, feels like a quality build and is in fashion with the must-haves and unfortunately that's all apple needs to have a huge market share regardless of how closed their hardware and software is or what their price point is. I'd still like to have a tablet that can do everything my HP TX2524ca can do while being able to hold it with one hand (for long periods, even iPad fails this).

Android Tablets More Expensive Than Apple?

[BrendaEM]

Oh come on people. When Apple can make a cheaper tablet than Samsung then somethings wrong.

What I think is going on is:
1.) Maker comes out with Tablet.
2.) Maker whores it to cellphone companies.
3.) Price is artificially inflated at request of cellphone company.

That Xoom commercial sure isn't going to help

[sjonke]

They did a fine job of declaring themselves another me-too, along with singing to the choir that already isn't buying Android-based iPad knockoffs.

HP TC1100

[sxmjmae]

The HP TC1100 has similar specs (in some cases better) than the iPad.

It came out in 2003 and it ran XP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Compaq_TC1100

Apple took proven existing technology (from ~2003) polished the OS up and made it largely idiot proof and then marketed the shit out of. Obviously a very successfully. Absolutely brilliant to be able to polish a terd and then convince people to buy it - it helps they did a very good job polishing it.

Re:HP TC1100

[arkane1234]

Abstractly, they took the technology. About like Ford took the idea of the wheel...
Come on, that was a computer with a resistive screen.... the idea was there, but it wasn't anywhere near an ipad.

Re:HP TC1100

[romanval]

MS had a great ideas for tablet computing, but running a WIMP-based OS made it useless.. There's a reason why the iPad quickly outsold all windows based tablets ever produced.

Re:HP TC1100

[JoeytheSquid]

I'll never understand why so many people place little to no value in usability and aesthetics. For better or for worse they can have just as much bearing on the overall worth of a product as specifications and features.

I can't touch the screens through a web site

[tepples]

So, stop making claims to things you don't know about or take two seconds to research the at the Archos website.

Archos 70 and Archos 101 have no demo units in my area. Is there a way, using the Archos web site, to tell whether or not I will find the capacitive touch screen of these products comparatively responsive to the capacitive touch screen of Apple's iPad, or at least substantially more responsive than its resistive products?

Google Apps is trivial to install, just find and download the latest hacked .apk

I know; I've installed ArcTools on my Archos 43. It's just that Google could A. send a DMCA takedown notice or other cease-and-desist notice to the hosts of the latest hacked .apk at any minute, just as it did when CyanogenMod included Google Apps, or B. block the latest hacked .apk at the server level. In addition, the install procedure for the latest hacked .apk includes running "Reset Android", which results in uninstallation of all applications that came with the device or were installed through AppsLib or .apk files, along with their settings. People who have owned an Archos product for a while might not be ready to do this.

This is getting ridiculous

[Brannon]

1. by your definition of 'nonfunctional', every appliance in the world is nonfunctional
2. the iPad is ugly because your pre-tween daughter says so? how about the millions that have been sold? were they all sold to blind people?
3. Apple got by on 'brand'? are you serious? Is 'brand' the reason that the iPad doesn't suffer any of the faults that the *story you are posting about* pointed out!
4. have you ever used an iPad? the battery lasts *forever* the whole thing is battery. The question of non-changeable batteries has been asked and answered by millions and millions of people who are delighted with their iPods/iPhones/iPads--none of which have changeable batteries--it's over, let it go.
5. oh right, we can't trust the hundreds of published reports on sales volumes (including revenue reporting from Apple, apparently they are just printing the money)--because no one really releases the real numbers and you went to a mall which had iPads for sale but had to scrape Amazon to find an Archos, and therefore Archos tablets have outsold iPads. Do you even listen to your self?

Your whole post was the worst kind of pathetic Apple-bashing and Android apologizing. You should to just accept that there are millions of people out there that want something different from their devices than what you want. That doesn't mean that they only care about 'brand' or that they are too stupid to understand changeable batteries or multi-tasking. Because frankly, you sound like a whiny little brat.

Update?

[Anonymous Coward]

With the iPad, we are sure there will be updates...
With Android, how it will be? As usual... none!

Re:Funny that only Apple gets what the consumer wa

[romanval]

It's more like they wait until they see Apple's success, *THEN* they start building knock offs.

(I find it strange how there's haters & doubters for everything Apple, yet the industry keeps following them.)

Android Tablets Not Premature for our Project

[conoviator]

My mass transit agency client was quite happy to replace their mouldering Palm VIII devices with Archos 32 mini tablets. The former were deployed on a U.S. federally mandated passenger survey system that I created years ago. These inexpensive PDA successors have been a pleasure to use. Some of the older surveyors would probably appreciate the larger size of the Archos 43; however, transit agency budgets are tight these days.

Not having (or desiring ... yet) a full-grown mass-consumer tablet, I cannot comment on whether current Android tablet offerings are iPad killers. For my own software development business reasons, I just want to keep having the option of buying and deploying Android mini-tablets for the kinds of business applications that made PDAs essential for many enterprises. This is a fruitful sector to mine.

No wireless, less space than a Nomad, Lame.

[Brannon]

It never ceases to amaze how many people out there just don't get it.

how do they beat the iPad?

[SethJohnson]

The existing Android 2.2 tablets are orders of magnitude more complex than the Ipad

And 'complexity' is a good thing? I think the GP was referring to the baseline specs that consumers can easily digest. Screen size is one of them. Price is another. How about third-party accessory ecosystem? Finally, app store selection is another. Not trying to be a hater here, but the Streak and Tab cannot match the iPad on any of these purchase criteria. At most, the Tab can claim more RAM, cameras, and lighter-weight, but those all come at a cost of shorter battery life (well, the cameras probably don't impact battery life).

Many criticisms of Apple relate to their products selling as a result of marketing. That is very true, but advertisements are only a very small part of marketing. Product lifecycle management is where Apple's marketing genius is exposed. The iPad1.0 has exactly the feature set Apple calculated would make it sell a bunch and establish it as a category leader. They could have included cameras. They could have included more RAM. Maybe even a faster processor. But then what would they be cannibalizing features planned for iPad2, which would force engineering to have to really scramble to give consumers an upgrade incentive. This is also why the savvy consumer holds out for iPad2 instead of buying the feature-poor iPad1.0.

Seth

Toshiba AC-100 for 70% off??? TELL ME WHERE!

[bornagainpenguin]

Subject line says it all. Where can I get my hands on one of these for 70% off? I know there are currently issues, but I also know that there has been work to port over a version of Ubuntu compiled for the ARM processor to this device, so I find myself quite interested. Especially at 70% off!

Android wins

[Anonymous Coward]

'its functionality is limited to that of an Android smartphone' .... which still craps all over an iPad for performance, features, and versatility

Re:Fashion accessory with all my books

[4phun]

You make a good point about the iPad reducing the weight of books and paper by displaying documents so well.
In Japan there is a shortage of scanners as students are making PDFs out of all their books. Those in cramped apartments find they can get rid of all the old publications and just go with the iPad. This allows them to reclaim all that space books formerly took up.

I think there is a four month waiting list among businesses that scan documents for these people. That is yet to take hold in the USA but it could be an extremely profitable venture for someone interested in a new startup near a big city.

Instead of fighting the Apple iPad, why not take advantage of the needs it creates.?

Galaxy Tab "came well before its time"??!

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who owns both an iPad and a Galaxy Tab, I can say I find the latter far superior. I hate how dependant of iTunes the iPad is, while my Galaxy behaves like something truly portable. The Galaxy Tab comes with many more features (like camera, digital tv and the swipe method of typing), and its store even has the games I've been playing the most. I guess I only touch the iPad nowadays to watch movies, while I use the Galaxy for almost everything (forget about productivity on either of them, even though the Galaxy has superior multitasking capabilities).

Eduardo Martins

Resistive screens back?!

[ZoCool]

Resistive touch screen! Where to I sign up! I have and stick with an old Palm Treo 650, and use MobileWrite for hand-drawn text input (think shorthand, Palm text input on steroids), and will be lost when it goes, if HP can't move on with the platform and produce a replacement. I can take notes at a lecture without taking my eye off the presentation, flick to a graphics app and do a quick (and tight) sketch of what is being presented, and have wonderfully precise input using my converted_bamboo_knitting_needle stylus which is longer that the plastic standard, so I only have to use micro hand movements. At 3am I'll reach for it to do engineering idea draughts (think graphics shorthand). Capacitive input better? Why? Are your fingers about 1mm at the tip, or is grabbing a 'stylus' (retracted biro, any firm pointed object, fingernail) too difficult? Not for me, kids. If Andoid can duplicate this usability, I'm in. (And my Touch 4 will go further back on the shelf, except when I need it's super-thin form factor to match an outfit :) ) But yes, a low quality resistive screen would be a pain; probably similar to a capacitive screen :D