Slashdot Mirror
Sony's Official Statement Regarding PS3 Hacking
tekgoblin writes "Sony has stepped up its stance on anyone circumventing protection of any kind on the PlayStation 3 and released a statement addressing it. Most recently Sony had barred George Hotz (Geohot) from releasing any more information about the console whatsoever. Now, Sony has their eyes set on other users that may be trying to use pirated software or modded PlayStation consoles on their network. The statement reads: 'Notice: Unauthorized circumvention devices for the PlayStation 3 system have been recently released by hackers. These devices permit the use of unauthorized or pirated software. Use of such devices or software violates the terms of the "System Software License Agreement for the PlayStation 3 System" and the "Terms of Services and User Agreement" for the PlayStation Network/Qriocity and its Community Code of Conduct provisions. Violation of the System Software Licence Agreement for the PlayStation 3 System invalidates the consumer guarantee for that system. In addition, copying or playing pirated software is a violation of International Copyright Laws. Consumers using circumvention devices or running unauthorized or pirated software will have access to the PlayStation Network and access to Qriocity services through PlayStation 3 system terminated permanently.'"
I just got a letter from Sony's lawyers regarding a particularly insidious piece of software I wrote for my PS3 entitled "Hello World". My Dad says that I have been very bad and will have to go to military school.
doubling up one's attitude regarding ANYthing, does not make that thing right, or wrong. something that is wrong, stays wrong, something that was right, stays still right.
In the cases where that thing was wrong, all that 'doubling up' accomplishes is to show the stubbornness and bastardry of the one doubling up the stance.
basically its doing wrong, and then insisting on being indignant.
Read radical news here
Second party controller users will be banned.
And for the record, I still haven't bought any games for my ps3
Firstly, just to state the obvious: I know that most people using these hacks will be running pirated games, and only the tiniest number will be using homebrew software.
But having said that...
Sony's statement refers to both pirated software AND "unauthorised" software. In that context, unauthorised must = homebrew. Software that you've written yourself, or the author intends you to use. Yet if you use it, Sony will cut you off from PlayStation Network, greatly reducing what you can do with the official games you've bought.
How is that even legal?!?!
I own my PS3. Sony shouldn't be able to take any action that prevents me from using it. If I want to pirate games (which I don't) then Sony can pursue me through the courts. They shouldn't be able to "confiscate" all of my legally-bought games as punishment, which is effectively what they're going to do.
Well, that's fixed that one then, hasn't it? With a statement like that, it's clear that piracy on the PS3 is good and dead.
Or maybe not.
Seriously, I don't see what Sony were trying to achieve here. I think anybody who mods their console (hardware or software) to run homebrew or pirated games will do so with the expectation that they will not continue to be able to use PSN features for long. All Sony have probably achieved is a minor Streisand-effect, making sure that even more people know that it's now possible to pirate PS3 games.
That said, I do applaud the policy of banning modded consoles from the PSN (and hence from the online components of PS3 games). The big attraction of console online multiplayer for me (and I suspect for quite a few others) is that playing on a locked-down system does reduce (albeit perhaps not eliminate) the scope for cheats outside of the exploitation of game-specific glitches.
"All Sony boxez are belong to us"
Maybe he owns a Wii? /me points at AC.... HAHA!
- http://www.milkme.co.uk
Do they realize they would sell more units by being friendly to the modding community? In regards to pirating, it is not their job to police users pirating. It is the job of law enforcement to uphold the laws, and it is then up to the courts to determine guilt and punishment.
I really have to say something here... I have a hard time understanding why this is such a big deal. Bear with me here...
You are buying a product that works within a closed ecosystem, including Sony's Playstation Network. If you mod your PS3, of course Sony is not going to let you play on their playground because they have no way to determine if your box is cheating or doing other non-good things while being attached to their network. Why is this so hard to understand?
Think about it this way... you are an IT manager for a large company. You manage thousands of desktops and hundreds of servers. What would you do if your employees started taking their laptops home and installing a modified or hacked OS, and then proceeded to bring those laptops to work and connected them to your managed network? Would you like that? Or would you ban those laptops from connecting to your network? This is precisely what Sony is doing and I don't disagree with it.
Note that I'm not against modding and hacking, on the contrary, I am a self-taught hacker with an electronics degree and nearly 30 years of computing experience. But even I understand that if I buy product A that comes with service B, service B may be taken away or unavailable if I modify product A. Sorry, but that's the breaks when you buy into a closed ecosystem. Same thing goes with Apple's walled-garden approach.
Now, if you want to mod your box, fine, just don't expect support or service from Sony. You don't need to use Sony's network if you don't own any games that require it. If I modded my own box, I would expect that I can no longer use any associated services. However, intentionally bricking a device is a whole other topic...
...I really don't mind this. I have no problem with people hacking/modding their PS3, running whatever they want to run on it and playing pirated games that don't connect to the network. But my chilled out attitude rapidly drops away when it comes to the mess that can happen in online games. MW2 used to be quite a fun experience online, but the hacked lobbies and the blatant cheating have recently made it unplayable. If I were Sony, I'd do exactly the same thing.
The condenced version of sonys TOS/EULA:
"We guarantee nothing, we promise nothing, we reserve the right to do anything we want or terminate this agreement at any point. You have the right to do absolutely nothing but we may decide not to punish you from doing some things if we feel like it. We also may change this agreement at any time and you shall have agreed to those changes as well automatically by agreeing to this"
it's remarkably similar to the agreement that comes with most antivirus software.
As much as I'm against Sony's recent lockdown on things like this, what they are doing here is perfectly acceptable, if you want to hack your console then you shouldn't expect to be able to use the online game servers, they need to control hackers and cheaters. This is no different from Microsofts stance.
Sony's perspective on whether they do or do not have a right to control their product post-sale is irrelevant -- they can believe that they have that right all they want, but it doesn't make it so. What they do have a right to control is the service they provide; banning devices and/or users from PSN and the like is entirely legit. Who would possibly expect them to do otherwise?
Indeed, people do make that argument. Some of them even sit on the U.S. Supreme Court.
Definitely -- no legitimate business can hassle its customers and get away with it. On an unrelated note, bought any good CDs lately?
I do not see any big problem with what Sony is doing. If your PS3 is modded, of course you should not be allowed onto their network, because that would open the door for all kinds of cheat software, which would destroy the fun for all the legit players trying to enjoy competitive games there. You still can play offline (as long as the game does not use online verification, which newer games very well might do) and you can still use your "homebrew" software. The whole thing would only be problematic if Sony would remotely brick your PS3 for being modded. But they do not do that.
Everytime an article about hacking on the PS3 turns up on Slashdot, we get a bunch of idiots writing "Fuck you, Sony".
For the report, I don't have a problem with homebrew or hacking. I run Rockbox on my iRiver.
I do however have a problem with piracy and online cheating.
If you're hacking the console just so you can play the latest games without paying for them or so you can cheat online in Sony's PSN, then you deserve to have your console banned.
Summation 2
GeoHots basic human right to free speech is taken? wtf? Im outraged.
Can someone please find a sweet backdoor into all PS3s and jailbreak them all at once?
I heard all PS3's have the same MAC address. Anyone knoe fi this is true? Maybe it was XBOX?
The problem is, the master key signs software, so the console things its legit. It uses the same key that is on official products. So, how will Sony know if someone is running a legit game, or one that was homebrewed and then signed? The answer - they can't. So as far as I am concerned, this statement is just scare tactics that Sony can't enforce.
Not that I really care. I use my PS3 for Blu-Rays, Netflix, and the ocassional old PSX or PS2 game I have in my collection. I have my PS3 to be a media console, not a gaming device, and really have no desire to run pirated games or Linux on it - I got a PC for that (linux, that is).
You forgot the usual ending to these kind of things.
Therefore, in summary, screw you
How can you violate the "System Software Licence Agreement" if you remove the said system software from the system?
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
We never thought to build shore defences because our Scienticians assured Us that if We stood on the shoreline and shouted "HALT!" loudly enough, the tide would never come in.
Effective immediately, Our new Oceanic Evition policy is to execute any of Our subjects caught with damp feet. We trust that this shall bring an end to this sordid defiance of Our divine authority.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Actually, it doesn't even take a word, it just takes a gesture, modeled here by William Shatner.
I am officially gone from
What can you expect from a company that does not have any remorse on hacking your computers (cd rootkits) just to keep you in check?
Don't they have a right to try and control what happens to their product?
No. Fortunately for Sony, this is not about the product, but about infrastructure that they themselves own and operate.
Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
I'm surprised that Apple and Sony haven't out-right just put licenses on their products. So instead of buying a product, you're buying a license to use the product but the hardware ultimately still belongs to them.
Not to give them any ideas, but isn't this a way around the whole "don't use anyone else's software or else"? Right now, nothing in the packaging (as far as I know) says that you can't use your own OS or anything other than the OEM software.
Ultimately, I think if Apple, Sony, or anyone else were to do this, people would either knuckle under or buy products that don't infringe on their rights.
We don't live in Shouldland.
One time leasing fee?? Just goes to show you that you need to read the fine print. If you don't agree with it, then don't buy/lease the unit. Most manufactures don't want you to read the fine print; this is the reason that it is tiny and difficult to read (legalese).
What if you were to come across a unit some other way, such as a garage sale giveaway? In this case you have agreed to nothing. Does the unit say "Not for resale. Property of Sony Corp." on it??
The one-time leasing fee is just a ploy to prevent you from marginalizing or re-purposing the hardware. Why should I not be able to build software for that platform and sell it or give it away allowing others to run it--such as a Linux distribution? For that matter, why not purchase from Sony, hack for other purpose--such as a node for parallel processing super computer, and then re-sell the units for that purpose with software included? You could make some serious money using their console. How can that be wrong or illegal?
It is not my fault that Sony chose a marketing tactic of giving the razor away to sell the blades. That is their risk and trying to get the law on their side in this matter is just plain wrong. ...I have some pretty decent blades that just happen to fit in that razor and when combined can do some very useful and valuable things.
I do not plan on buying anything from Sony again. Hopefully others will do the same. They can keep their products and services. What they are doing is just plain wrong--typical of an aging entertainment business with lobbying ties to Washington.
Why do people keep sending these greedy corporations money for products and services when they carry on like this (with the draconian fine print)??
...except they sold their product with this specific use as an advertised feature.
This means that hacking the device after that feature has been removed is much more legitimate than any other sort of jailbreaking, including jailbreaking a phone.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I get that blocking game servers but they are not just doing that. They are blocking access to PSN which stops me from legitimately purchasing anything online from them. This also blocks access to netflix for no reason I can see. When I try to load netflix, I see it open and load and connect to the netflix servers but I get a pop-up over it obstructing me from selecting anything saying I need to sign in the the PSN network.
I am now blocking my PSN from accessing the internet.
And yes, I mainly use it for homebrew stuff. You know, the stuff I used to be able to do when it still had the "other os" feature.
Why? What's the problem?
I bought a PS3. I have absolutely no desire to use it to run homebrew and I grew out of games piracy more than a decade ago. I use it to play legitimately-purchased games and Blu-Ray movies. And nobody puts a gun at my head and forces me to buy those. How does today's announcement affect me in the slightest?
from TFA
Rest assured, this message does not apply to the overwhelming majority of our users who enjoy the world of entertainment PlayStation 3 has to offer without breaching the guidelines detailed above, and we urge you to continue doing so without fear.
It doesn't.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
You know, the stuff I used to be able to do when it still had the "other os" feature.
Yeah, but they altered that deal, remember.
"We reserve the right to change any conditions to whatever we want whenever we want with no notice yadda yadda yadda"
In sony world you can just buy another one to run online :|
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
We need another player here ....
We have one. It's called "the rest of the technology world". Build yourself an HTPC (or other TV-attached computing device) and do anything you want (within the limits of the device). Yeah, you can't (easily) play proprietary games, but otherwise it's yours, and does just about anything that PS3 Linux can.
Points finger and Sony customers and goes *Ha Ha*
Not really. It's just laying out what should be obvious to everyone. Sony don't want pirates using PSN and if you try signing on from a modded box they will have ways of finding out, e.g. running an arbitrary challenge / response during signon. You could still run modded firmware and play pirate stuff and get away with it but it might be smart to stay well away from the online service. Of course it means no patches, DLC, multiplayer but that is rather the point. Microsoft does similar with XBL too.
I yanked the cable from my PS3 months ago. Until such point as I have OtherOS/AsbestOS or something else to run a media center frontend on, it doesn't need a network connection.
I'll probably have to block the thing from going outside my home network via a filter on the router anyways if I ever plug it back in, since at that point the PS3 will be "modded" to run linux. Sigh.
Of course, you wouldn't believe how many of these fucking PS3 games nag, nag, nag about "would you like to connect to PSN? please connect to PSN! I can't go online if you don't connect to PSN! You can't use the online features because you're not on PSN! For the love of god I have to be connected to PSN at all times or I'll die!"... it's really fucking ridiculous. I'm loading up a single player game, my PS3 doesn't have a network connection, for the love of god if there isn't an active connection the game should not pop up 5 or 6 fucking nag screens telling me I should "go online" when all I fucking want to do is play the single-player game.
Eh. Sony's not getting any of my money through PSN, then. And if I want to get a game via download, chances are I can get it on my 360 with little to no trouble. If I have any inkling that a game's going to be "incomplete without the DLC" and I really want the game anyways... see the 360.
Sony's just shooting themselves in the foot.
They only removed Other OS because of (drumroll please) Geohotz found a viable crack in the hypervisor. You can blame its removal on him. Do you really think Sony would leave a relatively esoteric feature there and put hundreds of millions of dollars of game sales at risk? Of course not.
If the PSN isn't required for PS3, then they can ban you from it. But, why can't there be a replacement network? Up until recently, it was not technically possible to create unauthorized software (software subject to their licensing & TOS restrictions) however it is now.
Since you "own" your console, you should be able to connect it to any network. I would assert that Sony by way of only allowing only one network (PSN) is given an unfair monopoly and is engaging in anti-competitive business practices. (Same for for XBLN) Even if you agree to the ToS, the ToS is only binding on the first owner of the console (First Sale doctrine) there is no provision for Sony to continue the ToS and License agreements past the shrink-wrap seal.
Clearly, you have the right to network the unit you own and have the right to connect it to networks of your choosing. I call for Sony to publish specifications which would allow alternate, private or open networks to be functionally equivalent to the PSN, as well as the PS Store. If Sony is going to force the issue, we'll make sure the stakes get really high.
This all started when they took Linux away anyway. That in itself has to be bait and switch.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
(and, again, only because they never released the GECK for the PS3 version, even lazier of them)
The hard drive is there, Bethesda, use it please.
I wonder what would happen if all the frequent buyers of games and downloadables were to have modded their console.
I read on the fallout forums that they are not allowed by the console companies (ms/xbox) to give users the means to modify the game (outside of playing it, of course.)
Of course, you wouldn't believe how many of these fucking PS3 games nag, nag, nag about "would you like to connect to PSN? please connect to PSN! I can't go online if you don't connect to PSN! You can't use the online features because you're not on PSN! For the love of god I have to be connected to PSN at all times or I'll die!"... it's really fucking ridiculous. I'm loading up a single player game, my PS3 doesn't have a network connection, for the love of god if there isn't an active connection the game should not pop up 5 or 6 fucking nag screens telling me I should "go online" when all I fucking want to do is play the single-player game.
Sounds like you are describing Gran Turismo 5. :P As a bonus, the game loads significantly faster when it isn't trying to talk to PSN every 5 seconds.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Sony could do much better working WITH the community on things like OtherOS. Instead, they've gone down the paranoid conspiracy-theorist route and look what it's gotten them - now the "pirate" scene and the homebrew scene (not always 100% separated anyways) are working on similar projects to open up the box for non-Sony code.
I doubt Sony gives a flying fuck if someone produces their own firmware to run XBMC for example. What they care about is people using modded firmware to play pirate software, cheat in multiplayer games, hack save games, hack trophies, scare off premium developers and generally screw around with something designed as a closed system.
I have not purchased anything from Sony since they released audio CDs with embedded root-kits and I will never buy anything from them again.
The impact of my own boycott is minimal, but if everyone took the same approach, Sony would at best go out of business and maybe, at the least, stop acting like the corporate bully that they are.
So they DO have the right to ban NON-PSx consoles from the network. And a PSx running NON-SONY software isn't a PSx in their eyes, which I would agree with. HOWEVER, if I want to buy a PSx and put my own software on it for my own use (Hey, maybe I can buy a PSx cheaper than a PC with a BD drive) I should be able to do so. Just so long as I understand I no longer have a PSx system anymore and I'm not welcome on the PSN with it. Now if THAT's ALL that Sony is saying, fine. But the camels nose gets no further in the tent than that.
So, if I decide to run Linux on my PS3 (which used to be allowed) so that I can run distributed computing projects using the powerful Cell processor that I paid for when I bought the console, then I'll be permanently banned from the PSN. How do I receive my cash refund for everything that I ever purchased through PSN that I would then no longer be able to access? (Not that I've bought anything since they took away Other OS, but I had bought a few downloadable games and add-ons prior to that)
So... is this like most PC developers where they ban your system from online multiplayer or is this like the Xbox where they ban you from the service? Banning from multiplayer is not a big deal, but banning completely from all online activities is an incredibly stupid thing to do -- one that encourages piracy. Millions have banned Xbox 360s simply because they've flashed their drive, and there are a number of Xbox Live Arcade games that they would gladly have purchased. Strangely, Microsoft felt it prudent to prevent people with banned Xboxes to purchase things, anymore, thus not only making things inconvenient for them, but actively discouraging the purchase of any Xbox-related products and encouraging the development of the piracy of XBLA games.
So now, I'll remember not to buy a used Playstation 3...
...or Blur. Blur is bad about continuous nag screens.
Demon's Souls also has the nag screens, but only when you load your game.
I was still on the fence about the PS3. Now after all this holier-than-thou pursuit of hackers and pirates by targeting anyone who so much as looks at their PS3 the wrong way just takes it to far. I now have no intention of buying a PS3 or any other Sony gaming system. I don't need a company being a little bitch about what I do with my property.
I'm 100% in favor of detecting and banning hacked consoles from PSN. It's Sony's network and they have the fundamental right anyway, and secondly, if it keeps cheaters/hacks/aimbots/etc off the PSN, I'm 110% in favor of that.
And I'll just buy another PS3. It will remain unmodified, and I'll use that for playing games online. And my current PS3 will remain as my "hacker's delight" that runs homebrew. If Sony detects that it's modified and bans it from the PSN, that's fine.
As for everyone else, if they want a PS3 to hack I'm sure it won't take long before Sony starts detecting modified PS3s and banning them from PSN, and $100 PS3s start appearing on Kijiji/Craigslist next to the Xbox360's that are banned from XBL.
That being said, I wish Sony was more accepting of the hacker community, perhaps even facilitating it somewhat. I actually thing it'd be awesome if Sony added a feature to the PS3 where you could 100% unlock the console hardware, banning the console from PSN in the process. It'd be a lot better, and probably even cheaper for them in the long run, than continuing their current bullshit of legally shafting people like Geohot. Hey, if people want to figure out how to program your game system, you should be helping them!
pray we do not alter them any further. - Sony
The problem is that Sony, being the control-freaks that they are, will likely take steps that will punish *you*, even though you're completely innocent. Don't have your PS3 connected to the internet? Sorry, all future games require online validation before you can play them--and no refunds. Have limited hard drive space? Sorry, all games now require partial installation to the hard drive. Got an older PS3 model? Sorry, a PS3 Slim model is required to play this title. Haven't updated your system software in a while? Sorry, all games now require the latest PS3 update to run. Wondering why you're suddenly perma-banned for no reason? Sorry, we got a false positive that you were running unauthorized software--tough luck, buddy.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Sony screwed themselves and their customers when they removed the OtherOS feature. Before that, they did not force a downgrade of the actual console you bought (though they removed functionality in later hardware revisions, you got what you paid for). When they forced a removal of a functionality that was important to many buyers, they pissed off a lot of knowledgeable folks who were enjoying their Linux on Cell experience. It certainly did not take long before the entire system was compromised.
No sympathy for Sony.
Stop the brainwash
Yes, you bought the console and are allowed to do everything you ever wanted to it. However by changing the system you are breaching the contract that you initially agreed to with Sony, and therefore giving up your access to PSN.
Yes, Sony threw the first rock, they removed other OS and that was really shitty of them. They broke (at least the ethical side of) the contract first, but that means you need to pursue the issue in court/with your government/etc.
Either way, once the contract is broken you give up your access to PSN. You only get to decide whether you'd like to have Sony punished for it, or be in the wrong yourself. Understand that I don't mean homebrew/jailbreaking/whatever is wrong, only doing so and then whining about Sony blocking you from their services.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and two breaches of contract don't unbreach it.
They only removed Other OS because of (drumroll please) Geohotz found a viable crack in the hypervisor. You can blame its removal on him.
No, I think we can blame the removal on Sony.
The NES had its own unauthorized software lockout mechanism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10NES
So they should work to at least try to get something set up like Rock Band Audition mode, it IS possible, even if there are restrictions along the way.
FC Closer
Of course the new games come loaded with the new firmware and try to force an install if you ever put the disk in the console. But the cracked and pirated ones won't do that, making them a superior product to the legitimate versions.
Why not take these hackers and hire them on to find out where to increase security. Or an even better idea release 1 version of the PS3 to be hacked as a fun HIY (Hack it Yourself) project and one that can't be. The HIY wouldn't be allowed on the same network. I really don't see this big issue with this, the hackers are showing Sony where they need to improve so now Sony needs to take that information and create a better product with it.
Even if the problem is in hardware you can do alot of stuff with low level bootrom code to make security interrupts that can block / patch hardware low level attacks.
Piracy had nothing to do with the Amiga failing - the C64 was even more full of piracy than the Amiga and it's still the best-selling model of home computer EVER. The Amiga failed because Commodore fucked it up, plain and simple. Even the OS devs knew this, and snuck an easter egg into WB/KS 1.2 saying so - Commodore made them remove it for 1.3.
FC Closer
If you break open your system, you still need those services...OH WAIT.
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
I you are right, they don't give a damn about one of the features and selling points of their system that was sold to customers. And by not giving a damn about it, they took it away and are now threatening anyone who tries to restore it.
Whatever, I have a hacked PSP and that thing is great.
understandable and predictable agreed. And also illegal, unethical and evil.
Just as long as you're not under any illusions that that thing you paid hundreds of dollars of your money to bring home from the store is yours...
Sony don't want pirates using PSN and if you try signing on from a modded box they will have ways of finding out, e.g. running an arbitrary challenge / response during signon. You could still run modded firmware and play pirate stuff and get away with it but it might be smart to stay well away from the online service. Of course it means no patches, DLC, multiplayer but that is rather the point. Microsoft does similar with XBL too.
Well, only until someone works around the challenge / response. I recall someone's IM software from a decade ago that implemented a challenge / response to prevent third-party clients from connecting. In short order, there was a procedure to install the authorized client's binaries in a subdirectory so the third-party client client could compute checksums on arbitrary sub-ranges of the code. I expect something similar to appear soon for PS3; worst-case you'd need to completely virtualize the system and run Sony's authorized firmware inside a VM. Looking at http://events.ccc.de/congress/2005/fahrplan/attachments/545-Paper_TheCellProcessor.pdf, Cell processors have virtualization support built-in. In fact, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_platform_virtual_machines lists several GPL'ed systems that already support PowerPC.
I wonder if Sony's going to demand a take-down of this post?
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
Oh no, not hacking save games and trophies!!!!!!!!111one
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
Wanting to play pirate games is not the only reason to say "Fuck you, Sony".
As a freedom and free software enthusiast, the thing that bothers me to no end about Sony, and all consoles for that matter, is how their games are becoming thiner and thiner in content, expecting more and more content to be "purchased" --which now means something similar to renting-- online.
People every year own less and less what they pay for and more remains in the control of the corporation. It has come to the point where even first sale rights are being denied because for all they whine that piracy is illegal, they don't give a shit about legality when they smell money to be made in abusing another illegal niche.
People should really vote with their wallets. There are hundreds of exciting free games, and hundreds of indie games that don't use these dirty tactics. And there is of course, human interaction, books, etc.
So fuck Sony.
But... the future refused to change.
Not illegal and as for ethics, it depends who you are thinking of. From Sony's perspective it would be unethical to leave it in there and screw over their business interests & partners for a small number of people using a niche feature.
Your sarcasm is misplaced. What's the point of Sony going to the expense of providing services to legit users if a bunch of assholes are allowed to cheat rendering them useless? The answer is there is no point. Clearly Sony intend to shut modders out of PSN both as a deterrent and also to protect the service from vandalism, exploits, damage etc.
You sir, are a bloody twit. Gotz found the crack, but Sony left it there to be found. It was their job to secure their system and as usual they did a piss poor job with it. The fact is that OtherOS was an advertised feature (a fact you and your ilk can't seem to get through your Sony-loving skull) and it was taken away. Instead of banning Hotz or going after him legally with DMCA violations, they took the hammer to the entire OtherOS system. It wasn't Hotz's fault any more than a beaten wife is to blame for her injuries because she burned dinner.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
and then the us air force will tell sony to back off.
True, but this wasn't much of an issue until Sony said "Hey, remember Other OS? Yeah...nevermind." Microsoft didn't yank something that was considered by some to be a selling point (Other OS) like Sony did.
What System Software License Agreement are you talking about? I certainly never saw one when I bought my PS3 over at a local pawn shop. Or amI bound to a contract that not only have I never agreed to, I have never actually *seen*?
That's one of the problems I have with this kind of agreement -- those in the second hand market never see them, never agree to them, and yet are somehow bound by them?!?
Sony, I already decided not to buy your stuff years ago. I can see you're genuinely applying yourself, here, but really, I'm already convinced. No need to expend any additional efforts.
I would be just fine with Sony protecting their PSN by banning modded consoles. That's good for gamers and means pirates will probably not be able to play their copies for long online. The part I have a problem with is Sony's assumption that the hardware is intertwined with PSN and therefore must litigate to erase all knowledge of how to uncouple the two. Why should Sony care if I want to buy 3 consoles to start a small Pov-Ray rendering farm? There's nothing wrong with trying to erase Sony's software from the console. The bit that is wrong is trying to modify their software to allow pirated games or hacks on the PSN. Geohot did not reveal how to add infinate ammo cheats to Call Of Duty. He simply provided access to the hardware that was originally part of the design.
"Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum."
"The body may heal, but the mind is not always so resilient." -- Deus Ex: Human Revolution
Evil? To remove a feature the vast majority of people didn't even know was there, let alone use? That word is so overused now as to be meaningless.
If you can't convince them, convict them.
It's weird to be supporting Sony right now (and twice in the same thread!), but you've got that analogy backwards.
If you can't convince them, convict them.
only a matter of time before hackers get around the block to just like they did with the psp.
as long as you dont mind your pc doing the lag work orb works fine on a ps3 or 360. so you still have media center abiltys.
yea they tended to add new things. wile sony remove stuff.
This issue some up over and over again in the technology industry. What I cannot comprehend, is why these companies seem to believe that they have any right to tell you what you can and cannot do with the product you purchased. Say for instance, you bought a PS3 then took it outside and summarily executed it. Despite the obvious fact that you have voided your warranty could Sony hope to tell you that you have no right to do that? Do they presume to maintain ownership of the hardware? Be that the case are they paying to have dead boxes shipped back to them for proper recycling? If one were using the modified box to play Pirated media, I could understand their hesitance from a purely legal standpoint. I can also understand not wanting people with modified consoles to play, and potentially cheat, on their Network. However, modifying and otherwise cracking the hardware for the purpose of installing a new OS or performing other Geekly tasks is, I would say, a right of the owner. Why do companies fight so vehemently to protect their software and hardware when they should know by now doing so will only enrage those Geeks being told "NO", when, I ask you, has that EVER worked? Sony, Wake Up. That Is All.
i think everyone who owns a psp has it hacked in some form. but that awesome little handheld is getting replaced this year so probly another year of games after that then it reaches end of life. but ngp looks like a epic replacment. of couse sony always promises big bost the epic specks but in the end fails to deliver.
Ah right, so if a computer or site's security is not perfect, the person who chooses to bust in bears no responsibility or blame for subsequent actions? Don't be stupid.
Yes, because nobody has ever downloaded malicious software from pirate sites.
"But this one goes to 11!"
Like the US AIR FORCE? http://games.slashdot.org/story/09/11/25/0527205/US-Air-Force-Buying-Another-2200-PS3s
It was an ADVERTISED FEATURE, which was RETROACTIVELY REMOVED from consoles already purchased. And don't even say that you have a choice between OtherOS and PSN, because they are forcing you to ditch a DIFFERENT ADVERTISED FEATURE to keep the first one.
"Not illegal"
VERY ILLEGAL. Speaking as business owner that knows full well that this is a bait and switch.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I would hope that any employee smart enough to installed their own OS would be smart enough to do it right before plugging it into our network.
"Do it right" means not making it a hazard to our network.
Besides, if I have more than a few computers on the network that I don't have physical control over, I'm going to treat all the ones I don't have physical control over as potentially compromised. This may mean I buy an application-server and force those users to do most of work over a "think client" mode. In a Windows shop this would likely be Windows Terminal Services or web-based applications. The few things I would allow to be done offline, such as composing documents, would require that any files uploaded to the server be heavily scrutinized upon upload.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I don't think the people using it for computing are also using PSN.
I don't think that unlocking save games and showing off the size of your e-penis...er, I mean trophies... is going to disrupt anything. I remember having Game Genies all those years ago and no one was hurt then either.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
Points finger and Sony customers and goes *Ha Ha*
Yep. Me, I only purchase goods from companies who are complete saints. That's why I am typing this on a computer I made out of grass, sand, and rocks.
Must be a PS3: you can own a car but you can't own a PS3.
If you can't hack it you don't own it.
The vast majority of people don't use their car's airbags. Are you saying it's OK for Ford to sneak into your garage and remove them?
"I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
That's actually an essential feature of car safety. Removing Linux from a game machine (and no matter how Sony may market the thing, that's what its main focus is) is hardly equivalent.
Plus, Sony openly said that they were removing OtherOS. There was no "sneaking".
If you can't convince them, convict them.
I agree man. The hassle of pirating, updating, hacking, re-hacking just so you can play a pirated game is not worth the time. Just go get your game from Game Stop or Game Zone or Game $WhatEver. I've given up my game pirating long ago as well.
--- If the bible proves the existence of God, then Superman comics prove the existence of Superman.
Game Genies didn't ruin the experience for other people playing the game. There's nothing that will piss you off more than going into a multiplayer game and some modder has 10x the strength/weapons etc than anyone else and ends up ruining it for everyone else. On top of all that, they act like an ass to everyone.
--- If the bible proves the existence of God, then Superman comics prove the existence of Superman.
I mean, don't you have to connect to PSN to get the updates that kill OtherOS? If so, I see only win. :)
I mean, that's the icing on the cake. The decision they've forced for us OtherOS users is between staying away from GameOS and PSN or staying away from PSN and getting another SPU and access to the GPU. I don't see the downside, frankly.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
When I think of editing save games, I think of unlocking hidden levels and acquiring characters that otherwise require stupid conditions be met. What you're suggesting is simply cheating. I don't see how most save game edits could give one a drastically unfair advantage over others, unless it's an RPG or something.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
Yep. Me, I only purchase goods from companies who are complete saints. That's why I am typing this on a computer I made out of grass, sand, and rocks.
Your posting from inside Minecraft?
I was quoted out of context in my autobiography...
If I purchase a PS3 second-hand for the sole intention of rooting the device to run whatever, how would the "System Software License Agreement for the PlayStation 3 System" apply to me?
Or are they implying that either the units are not resell-able or the second owner is not licensed to run the firmware it comes with? I see the first-sale doctrine preventing the first and actually invalidating any other implied license between Sony and the second owner.
If you buy the razor, how are you obligated to purchase blades from the same vendor (stupid connector patent schemes aside), rather than using it as a back scratcher?
This comment does not necessarily represent the views and opinions of the author.
The argument was that it wasn't used often and therefore it was OK to take it away, even though it was part of the package that you paid for. Airbags qualify, but you do have a valid point about them being essential on rare occasions (namely, wrecks).
So let's look at another example. My Droid is a phone. Its essential function is to make phone calls. If the magnetic sensor were disabled by a software update, its essential functions would still be there. Is it OK for Motorola to disable the sensors as long as they don't directly relate to making phone calls or safety?
Hey wait, I know. My sound card has an optical-out port. Most people probably don't use it, but that port is why I bought it. If it went away, I could hook it up via an inferior analog cable, but I don't want to. Is it OK for the manufacturer to force a driver update which disables the optical port?
Or back to the car, the XM-ready feature in most cars doesn't get used. Is it OK for the dealership to sneak into your garage and swap the radio with one that doesn't have the XM-ready feature?
What about seat heaters? If I don't use the one on the passenger side does that mean I give Acura permission to come and remove it?
The point here is that Sony sold the PS3 advertising that it was capable of doing something that they then bricked, on purpose, and without compensation to those who had bought the machine assuming it would be as-advertised. It doesn't matter if they ever used the feature. There are buttons on my Logitech Harmony that I never use, but that doesn't mean I'm giving Logitech permission to come in to my living room and pry them off with a screwdriver. The thing was sold with a listed feature set, and I expect the company not to send henchmen to forcibly remove any of the features, used or not.
"I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
Yes because we all used Game Genies with our Nintendo Entertainment Systems hooked up to ARPANET through a 2400bps modem. It's exactly equivalent.
Fair enough. I was somewhat miffed at losing OtherOS support, myself, so I see nothing wrong with others criticizing for it. But I still can hardly consider the act "evil".
If you can't convince them, convict them.
Actually you are a bit off. Sony is deathly afraid that their box is TOO good and some simple software modifications can open up the hardware to do things far out of Sony's control. They are very afraid of a free killer app on the hardware.
Good-bye
The same way buying a camcorder with MPEG4 encoding binds you to MPEGLA's licensing scheme and prohibition on use as a professional device even if you buy it second hand. Its wrong, and should be illegal, but there it is.
Good-bye
NO. Sony did NOT act in an understandable and entirely predictable way. It is VERY rare that manufacturers remove advertised features from an already deployed device in the way Sony did. I dont think anyone saw that coming and was definitely above the norm. My tinkering with my car timings does not give Ford the right to automatically disable all air conditioning units because they think it might lead to me discovering their secrets.
Good-bye
GEOHOT OWNED THE PS3 HE HACKED. It was his to do with as he pleased. He broke down HIS OWN DOOR HE OWNS. Dont be stupid.
Good-bye
I'll refrain from ad hominems here.
You're equating breaking into someone else's computer system or network with breaking into your own purchased hardware to get it to do what you want it to do?
I really don't understand you Sony apologists.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
I liked GeoHot's rap about getting sued by Sony (here).
There is a big difference between hacking to cheat (steal games/cheat with online games) and when someone hacks to allow you to use the hardware you own. Admittedly it's hard to keep them separate, but that's what must be done if we as consumers want the right to use the hardware we paid for as we see fit.
It's truly horrible to have others playing games in ways that you don't like.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
If I must purchase something, I try to purchase it from the least evil company. If there's no other options, and I really need something, that is.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
And here we have the class-action lawsuit against Sony regarding OtherOS still ongoing and waiting... and waiting... delayed...
Whereas the case against GeoHot is going hot and fast, with Sony allowed to do forensics on his equipment and tamper with evidence.
At the time I purchased the original uncrippled 60GB model, I was weighing the purchase of that against a Mac Mini as a media center PC. The PS3 won out, since it did everything I wanted out of the Mini. The PS3 did not, of course, run OSX, but it did run any PowerPC Linux happily, and mplayer/VLC/XBMC were capable of playing back pretty much anything the Mini could. Additionally, it had a unique hardware set that was faster at certain functions than anything then available at any reasonable price. e.g. I wrote a stupid fast (useless but fast) port of Conway's Game of Life using the SPUs as learning tool.
Add in the Blu-Ray playback, and card readers, and it was very very useful as a general purpose media center PC. Needless to say I did not upgrade past 3.15, and lost PSN connectivity back then. Everything was happy until the graphics hardware started throwing up random polygons when playing offline games.
The PS3 Sony sent back when I paid for repair/replacement was already upgraded past 3.15 (ignoring my request to NOT upgrade my console, and specifically telling them to return my console unfixed if a replacement was not at 3.15).
As a result, I am very thankful to again have that capability to run Linux back due to the jailbreak community. Sony screwed me twice already. If they permaban me now it will be a very sad day.
Ridiculous qualifiers? I think not!
When I think of editing save games, I think of unlocking hidden levels and acquiring characters that otherwise require stupid conditions be met. What you're suggesting is simply cheating.
Sony's (well, console manufacturers in general) dilemma is that there's no way to get rid of one without getting rid the other.
If you like this statement, you're going to love Sony's draconian new ToS. I'm surprised it isn't front-page yet.
So yes you can blame Geohot for the current situation. Sony acted in an understandable and entirely predictable way. It's a shame that Other OS went but to leave it there would have jeopardized the entire platform. It's also laughable that people claim that hacking only started with its removal, it was removed BECAUSE of hacking. Maybe other exploits have subsequently surfaced but the Other OS hack was viable and if Sony had done nothing they'd probably in a worse place than they are now.
No. Yes, there were attempts to crack it, but they were pretty small scale. After the removal of OtherOS, there were suddenly a lot more people with an interest in cracking the PS3 just so they could continue using a feature that they paid for. Customers were defrauded by and angry at Sony. That's a powerful motivator.
Whichever way you turn it, removing OtherOS was both wrong and stupid. Arguably more wrong than stupid, but it was still a bad move.
It still surprises my that Sony has not been dragged through court over this. It sounds like something that should be very illegal, and yet, I don't recall hearing about any lawsuits that forced Sony to restore otherOS.
I don't have a PS3, and never intend to buy any kind of closed down console, so I don't care much about OtherOS myself (though I do enjoy reports about other people doing cool stuff with it), but I do consider it evil when a company takes an advertised feature away from customers without giving the customers any choice in the matter.
In fact, I don't see how anyone can disagree with this. Do you honestly think consumers should have no rights at all? That companies should be allowed to screw us over just because it happens to be in the company's best interest? That'd be arguing that we should become slaves to our corporate masters. Really.
I have never once said Sony is in the right for doing this. I even said I was personally annoyed at losing the feature. I merely think that "evil" is too strong a word. Evil should be reserved for special acts, such as murder or rape, not removing a random feature from a video game console. That's simply "bad".
If you can't convince them, convict them.
I don't think evil is restricted to acts of violence.
No, it's restricted to acts that truly hurt people, not inconvenience them. I can't think of any reasonable scenario that lack of OtherOS would hurt someone (and that they couldn't just use, I don't know, a PC), but If not having Linux on your PS3 hurts you, you shouldn't have upgraded.
But this is a pointless argument.
If you can't convince them, convict them.
By that reasoning, there's nothing really wrong with theft or fraud either. I don't buy it.
to create an alternate to PSN that people with hacked/homebrew systems can access? I see no problem Sony wants to lock you out from their network to preserve the playability/integrity of it, in fact that kinda makes sense to me. Just develop and manage a network just for the people who want to cheat/exploit and then everybody can still play. Access to the alternate network would probably require you to install some sort of patch redirecting your connection there which should be easy enough if the system is already rooted.
That's just my $0.02 if somebody wants to explain I'm more than happy to learn something new.
**Disclaimer** I am not a gamer and know nothing about the PS3
Because nobody bothered to keep their box or record the originally-aired PS3 ads which CLEARLY stated Other Operating System support.
Find that evidence and a massive class-action suit can happen.
Because then the new ads showing the PS3 slim and saying "It does everything" can be proven a lie, as it can't even do what the original PS3 could do.
Actually, it's still a lie, as no PS3 slim model has PS2 capability.
Sony should be immediately dragged through court for false advertising.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I bought the damn thing and I'll do anything I want with it! Get a life Sony! If Sony would just look at what the 'hackers' are doing with the device, they would be thrilled at all the new ideas and ways to use it. Then if they adopt and incorporate these 'hacks' into their next version, it would mean more $$$ for Sony and more enjoyment for those who use the product. Everybody wins!