Chinese Phone Maker ZTE Turns Down WP7

An anonymous reader writes "Chinese smartphone maker ZTE, fifth largest in the world, has publicly criticized Microsoft for the lackluster market reaction to its Windows Phone 7 operating system and said that ZTE has no plans to develop a WP7-powered phone. That's bad news for Microsoft for its well-regarded but not well-received mobile OS."

Comments

well regarded ?

[Anonymous Coward]

huh ? who in their right minds would purchase a wp7 phone when iphones and androids are running around ?

Re:well regarded ?

[Shikaku]

You know a device is bad when even China doesn't want to touch it (and clone it).

Re:well regarded ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly everyone in the television show "Bones":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElF4JrADdMI

Re:well regarded ?

[ozmanjusri]

Purchase, not be paid to endorse.

Re:well regarded ?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean television isn't real?

Re:well regarded ?

[oliverthered]

a gay man against freedom.

Re:well regarded ?

[Sir_Sri]

Who would have purchased an android phone 6 months after launch? Who would have predicted that Android market share would outpace iphone market share as quickly as it has?

Right now MS is moving at a glacial pace with windows 7 phones, which isn't encouraging for their business, but the one thing you don't want to be is a 3rd party supplier and find out you've made enemies with the new big dog in town. In 12 or 18 months with nokia on board MS could have a vastly superior product to anything else on the market.

They probably won't, because they seem to want to work really hard to fail, but that could change. I think every 3rd party phone maker (i.e. anyone who isn't apple or RIM) should have a MS phone strategy. Just in case. That strategy could be 3 guys and a dev kit. But it should be there. Who knows, maybe MS has some killer app up it's sleeve that will take the phone market by storm, that will suddenly make us all converts. The vast majority of even Android users run windows PC's after all, one would hope MS has some ideas on how Window 7 computer could play nice with windows 7 phones.

Re:well regarded ?

[terjeber]

Easy to answer: Anyone who has actually tried one. As a mobile developer (enterprise only) I have had an iPhone since the 3G and my main living room entertainment center is a Galaxy Tab. I also got the WP7 phone for an in-house project where I was required to evaluate it. After a couple of weeks of using it it replaced my iPhone as my primary mobile device. It is heads and shoulders above the iPhone in almost any respect.

Re:well regarded ?

[bloodhawk]

It may be selling relatively slowly but it is if anything head and shoulders above the iphone and at least equal to any of the newer androids. Whether that is enough to come from behind is anyones guess. People seem to forget 12 months ago android was no where and even the original iphone sold at about the same rate as the current WP7 phones as similar to WP7 phones the first model had limited network support.

Re:well regarded ?

[thegarbz]

Who would have purchased an android phone 6 months after launch? Who would have predicted that Android market share would outpace iphone market share as quickly as it has?

Ummm anyone who was watching the market. There was clear signs that Android would be the next Sybian when the Open Alliance formed back in 2007 made up of many mobile device and chipset manufacturers. Then there were clearer signs in 2008 when another 14 companies joined the alliance which now pretty much included every handset manufacturer except Nokia. This very site has been praising the platform ever since it was announced that it would be open source and based of the 2.6 kernel.

The parent was right, given what we know about WP7 who would buy it? 6.5 was UI disaster of epic proportions, 6.0 was an inconsistent slow buggy mess which spent more time with an hourglass on the screen then it did making calls. On top of that, up until Nokia joined the Windows camp the only major handset provider pushing windows 7 phones was HTC, and even they are selling at glacial pace, and few manufacturers are pushing the platform.

Not to mention that the ads Microsoft push as of late are not only crap in quality, but also testing new waters such as at the start of Youtube videos providing them not with positive advertising, but instead a stigma of "the company who helped ruin youtube" and not just youtube. The only place I've seen microsoft ads is where I don't expect them, and haven't previously seen advertising.

Re:well regarded ?

[Sabriel]

Which brand/model? I had to buy a new phone in a hurry at the start of the year when my old one literally fell to pieces; I looked at the android, iphone and wp7 models available and the UI on the wp7 phones I tried was slow and clunky. I ended up picking up an iphone 3gs due to the slick UI and the fact it was cheaper than an iphone4 without losing anything i really needed (like exchange and google sync). Didn't have access to the Tab.

Of course, two months later and so far I've run into the "goes flat in three hours while heating your pocket" problem, the "stuttering scroll and ignore single taps" problem, and the "have to jailbreak the phone even just to have a custom sms tone" problem. Sigh, wish my old phone had lasted just another few months...

Re:well regarded ?

[David Gerard]

"There was clear signs that Android would be the next Sybian"

I know some people love their phones, but that's getting into Jerry Springer territory.

Re:well regarded ?

[93 Escort Wagon]

Not to mention that the ads Microsoft push as of late are not only crap in quality, but also testing new waters such as at the start of Youtube videos providing them not with positive advertising, but instead a stigma of "the company who helped ruin youtube" and not just youtube. The only place I've seen microsoft ads is where I don't expect them, and haven't previously seen advertising.

Microsoft's ad problems are a whole 'nother issue - I have a friend who's a copywriter and has recently worked for Microsoft. Even after the disastrous ad campaigns of the past decade, they still require broad consensus before approving a new ad. Even worse, their division heads often co-opt the process altogether - basically rejecting the professional ad copy and then writing their own.

It's something I see with faculty at my university a lot - because they are smart in one specific area, they seem to think that makes them experts on all topics, no matter how diverse from their actual area of expertise.

Re:well regarded ?

[93 Escort Wagon]

It is heads and shoulders above the iPhone in almost any respect.

It's funny how that phrase - that EXACT phrase - is creeping into multiple comments on this discussion. You'd almost think it was coordinated.

Re:well regarded ?

[Hope Thelps]

It's funny how that phrase - that EXACT phrase - is creeping into multiple comments on this discussion. You'd almost think it was coordinated.

Not at all, it's just head and shoulders above other phrases in almost any respect.

Re:well regarded ?

[thegarbz]

Dildroid. - An app which you won't find in the walled garden may help :-)

Re:well regarded ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go through his other posts. He's an MS astroturfer, one of many in Microsoft Astroturfing Division. Which recently became to annoy everyone here. These guys are without any sense of proportion.

Re:well regarded ?

[TheRaven64]

Since you're being paid do endorse the product, maybe you could at least try to give your employers value for their money. This, for example, is an obvious shill comment, and will be disregarded on Slashdot:

After a couple of weeks using product A, it replaced product B as my primary device. It is a brand of shampoo above product B in every respect.

It's not even subtle. A better shill comment would be:

I really liked product B, but I found feature X to be a bit cumbersome to use and I really missed feature Y. Product A has some faults, but feature X is a lot easier to use, and it has feature Y.

An ever better shill comment would be expanding on one of these points, for example explaining that using feature X on product B required this sequence of actions, while on product A it only required a shorter sequence, and explaining why anyone should care about feature Y. Of course, at this point, you're getting dangerously close to giving an honest review, which may not be what your corporate overlords are looking for.

Re:well regarded ?

[zach_the_lizard]

Just the browser makes WP7 bad as far as what I would use it for. Go to the acid3 test in mobile Safari, then in WP7's bastardized IE version. Safari renders it correctly and gets 100/100 on my phone. IE produces garbage and a low score.

Re:well regarded ?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're thinking of an Apple customer.

Re:well regarded ?

[phonewebcam]

Those in need of a single tasking XBox controller. No need for cut and paste, regular bricking on updates comes with the territory and eating up all your monthly allowance is no problem since its mom and pops tab anyway.

Re:well regarded ?

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD PARENT UP. This is true. Astroturfing should be pointed out and ignored.

Re:well regarded ?

[terjeber]

Since you're being paid do endorse the product, maybe you could at least try to give your employers value for their money. This, for example, is an obvious shill comment, and will be disregarded on Slashdot:

Wow, so everybody who doesn't agree with your limited view of the world are paid shills? I must say, you are recovering quite remarkably from your brain-removal surgery, apart from that rather silly religious attitude you have acquired.

Re:well regarded ?

[terjeber]

Sigh. So everybody who doesn't agree with you have to be part of a coordinated, presumably paid, campaign? Did it ever occur to you that you actually do not have all the answers. Moron.

Re:well regarded ?

[terjeber]

I have no idea what phone you tried with WP7. As I mentioned, I am a developer and I work in the mobile space as well. I got the first WP7 phone that became available in my marked, the LG. It is widely considered the worst WP7 phone out there, and it beats the iPhone in almost every way. Connectivity and responsiveness being two of the more notable.

Re:well regarded ?

[shutdown -p now]

It would be nice if you could tell specifically how it's "head and shoulders above iPhone".

Openness? Nah, it's locked down more than iPhone, both from user and from developer perspective.

Apps? Fewer than either Android or iPhone, and some big titles are notably missing (e.g. Skype). Reason primarily being no native code for apps, so no easy way to port.

Features? Well, Office apps are nice, but aside from that... the Exchange app is less complete than Touchdown on Android (it won't show "protected" emails, for one thing). In terms of phone itself, there's no tethering at all - even iPhone has that! It requires Zune software on PC with syncing set up to do anything with data on the phone - so if you're visiting someone and want to show them the photos from your phone, you can't easily do so. In contrast, Android exposes the entire user-writable filesystem when attached via USB (either as UMS in previous versions, or via MTP in Honeycomb), and iPhone does MTP for the photos.

Stability? Better than Android, but I've seen more force closes on it than on iPhone (Marketplace especially).

About the only thing that really stands out is UI - and I actually grokked why it's better suited specifically for the phone form factor, eventually: it centers around vertical lists, and you don't normally need to position your thumb on a precise horizontal coordinate (as with iPhone/Android icons) - only flick it left and right to switch between panorama/pivot panes. Thus you've only got one (vertical) axis where thumb position matters, which is easier for when you hold the phone one-handed and operate with thumb alone. Which is all good, but even the best UI is useless if the features aren't there.

Re:well regarded ?

[TheRaven64]

Well done, you've completely failed to address anything I said in my post. I've had 'brain-removal surgery' because I want someone endorsing a product to actually list what advantages it has? I think that pretty much confirms that you're a paid shill - no one who doesn't work in advertising would consider requiring actual evidence of a product's superiority (rather than just a hand-waving comment that it's better) to be a 'rather silly religious attitude'.

Did I say that anyone who doesn't agree with my 'limited view of the world' is a paid shill? No, I said that you are a paid shill, and that your employer is not getting value for money because you are very bad at it. Of course, I could be wrong, you could just be incredibly inarticulate.

First, what 'limited view of the world' do you think that I have? That the iPhone is better than WP7? Sorry to disappoint you: I've only used an iPhone for a few minutes, and have never used WP7, so I have no opinion of their relative merits. You, on the other hand, feel the need to jump in to every discussion related to Windows Phone 7 with a ringing (yet fact-free) endorsement of WP7. You also feel the need to attack anyone who suggests that you might be a paid shill.

Re:well regarded ?

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD PARENT LEFT.

Re:well regarded ?

[Kielistic]

Hello, I'm a Microsoft new media recruiter. I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:well regarded ?

[Atroxodisse]

I have the Samsung Focus and the UI is extremely responsive.

Re:well regarded ?

[Colin Smith]

It's something I see with faculty at my university a lot - because they are smart in one specific area, they seem to think that makes them experts on all topics, no matter how diverse from their actual area of expertise.

What? really? Never seen that for example, here.

It's a general failing of specialists, because they are good at one thing, they think they're good at everything.
 

Re:well regarded ?

[RogerWilco]

Of course, two months later and so far I've run into the "goes flat in three hours while heating your pocket" problem, the "stuttering scroll and ignore single taps" problem, and the "have to jailbreak the phone even just to have a custom sms tone" problem. Sigh, wish my old phone had lasted just another few months...

I've had an 3GS for almost 2 years now, and I don't experience any of the problems you mention except for the lack of selection in SMS ringtones.
Maybe your problem is that you jailbroke the phone?

The only way I could get the battery to run down in 3 hours, is if I'd run TomTom with GPS in the background and Spotify over 3G playing streaming music and watching YouTube videos in the foreground. Usually it lasts me about 3-4 days between recharges.

Re:well regarded ?

[terjeber]

Funny thing, I have never heard anyone say that the WP7 UI is slow, so I have to assume the poster who claimed it was sluggish is simply lying.

Re:well regarded ?

[terjeber]

Well done, you've completely failed to address anything I said in my post

You didn't actually say anything in your post. You just threw out dumb accusations. No, I am not a shill, and I am certainly not paid by anyone to say what I think about WP7.

If you want to know why I like WP7 you could read any of the reviews of the product. They cover the basics. Here are some things though.

• When I sit in my living room, my WP7 phone and my Galaxy Tab are on my Wi-Fi fine, with full coverage. The iPhone says there is no wi-fi to be found. That is one major issue.
• When I drive from work to home talking to my wife, the iPhone will drop the conversation in three specific spots, without fail, my WP7 phone never hickups. The iPhone generally has significantly worse call quality throughout the trip. The two phones are not only on the same carrier, they are on the same subscriptions (you can have multiple phones with duplicate SIMs on my carrier).
• The WP7 phone is well integrated with gmail and gmail contacts, which is my primary storage for contact info. If I add a contact to my phone, it will ask me where to create the contact, Google, Exchange, Windows Live. The iPhone doesn't sync with any of these (or Facebook) it just downloads (which is not enough).
• Same integration level for images as for contacts and email. iPhone and Android offer nothing comparable.
• The WP7 user experience is integrated and similar across the spectrum. Each iPhone app I have is different from the other. None are integrated with the OS in any meaningful way. Android is even worse.
• Without unlocking my phone I can see, not only what time it is, but how many unread emails I have, when my next appointment is, how many SMSs I have etc. On the iPhone I can check what time it is and look at that pic of my wife yet another time.

Those are some of the things I like as a user.

As a developer i like the following. The WP7 phone has the best developer experience of any phone. With an enormous margin. It lacks a few things, it would be really odd if a V 1.0 product didn't, but even with what it lacks, I can put together a full cloud-enabled business application on the WP7 an order of magnitude faster than I can on any competing product. For enterprise app development, that is crucial.

Re:well regarded ?

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL! Old school text adventures FTW!

Re:well regarded ?

[Sabriel]

As I was not lying, perhaps try assuming something else?

Other possibilities include, but are not necessarily limited to: botched customisation of the OS/UI for local market, laden with bloatware by local distributor, settings messed up by previous potential customers (they were demo models after all), or combination thereof. As I said, I was in a hurry; I didn't have time to properly review each of the dozen or so models I looked at.

Thankyou for your original polite reply, at least.

Re:well regarded ?

[Sabriel]

Heh, that's the thing, I actually haven't jailbroken the phone - though I would have to if I did want a custom sms tone. I'm just bemused by such a bizarre limitation. :)

And it doesn't always exhibit the "goes flat in three hours while heating your pocket" problem; it seems to be random (or at least I haven't yet figured out what triggers it). When it's behaving, it usually lasts about the same time between recharges as yours. I've tried a factory reset and restore from backup, no luck.

I've been reading that some iphones have a specific battery fault; I do plan on contacting Apple about whether mine is one of those.

Re:well regarded ?

[terjeber]

Let's look at your possibilities:

• Botched customization of OS/UI: Not possible, customization not allowed.
• Laden with bloatware: None of the distributors do, see the first point
• Settings messed up: No settings could in any particular way impact the phone in the way you describe

It is safe to say that you were "saying about something that isn't that it is" as lying was once defined as. There is also another item that strongly indicates lying, this sentence fragment: each of the dozen or so. Yeah right. Lying indeed.

Re:well regarded ?

[Max Littlemore]

I'm a non MS type usually and my personal phone is an android thing, but I have to say I'm impressed by the WP7 HTC I played with recently. Really responsive and sensibly laid out. I would definitely consider it over the shitty little thing work gave me called an iPhone4.

Re:well regarded ?

[Sabriel]

I define lying as "knowingly speaking falsehood". Which is why the accusation offended me.

Thankyou for ruling out those possibilities. Does that apply globally to all phones running WP7, just the models in your market, or just your particular model?

And as for "each of the dozen or so (models)", perhaps you assumed that I meant only WP7 phones"? I apologise if I was unclear - I was referring not to only WP7 models but rather to all the models - wp7, android, iphone, etc - of phone in the shops that I checked out.

Anyway, have a nice day. Truly. You sound like you need one.

Re:well regarded ?

[Max Littlemore]

You picked the iPhone!?!?!?

I haven't played with the LG, but the HTC is way slicker and faster than the iPhone4 my work just gave me.

iPhones are the most constricted and difficult to use pieces of shit in the smart phone market. A good droid definitely kicks arse, and this is speaking from the point of view of one who recently switched from a Nokia to an Android and then got an iPhone4 a few weeks later, so I have been through the "this is all new to me" phase on each device and done a side by side comparison.

Here's an example at how Apple suck at usability but manage to brainwash people into not realising it. If you are sensible and have your SIM lock on, you have to enter a code before the phone is useful. Unlike the Android where you can't access anything until you enter the code, with the iPhone4, you have short opportunity to enter the code before the thing loads the main screen, giving you access to the data on the phone but no phone ability. Worrying from a security standpoint.... oh, but apple is such a secure system...

Now there is no obvious way to unlock the SIM, so most people would turn it off and on again, this time staring at the apple logo. See what's going on there? These people are being brainwashed into the church of Apple. Having the Apple burned into their psyche. Masses of drooling Apple drones staring at the shiny Apple deity waiting for thier opportunity to be truly shiny too.

There is another way to do it... go to Settings > Phone > SIM lock and turn the SIM lock off, enter your PIN, turn the SIM lock on and enter your PIN again... yeh, Apple gear is so easy to use...

Re:well regarded ?

[Max Littlemore]

I have only briefly played with a WP7 phone (the HTC whatsit), and I agree it is slick. Definitely way ahead of iPhone4 in usability, but not quite enough to get me off Android... I'm hooked on the utility of the Galaxy S.

Re:well regarded ?

[Sabriel]

Heh. You can also (at least with iPhone 3GS and iOS 4, can't speak for earlier versions) just go to make a call and it will prompt for the SIM code.

But yeah, in hindsight, I may have chosen... poorly. :)

Re:well regarded ?

[Max Littlemore]

So I have to pretend I want to make a call to get my email and calendar to sync? So convenient!

Re:well regarded ?

[Max Littlemore]

So I have to pretend I want to make a phone call to get email and calendar to sync? Of course! Silly me. :/

Re:well regarded ?

[terjeber]

Does that apply globally to all phones running WP7

I thought it was pretty well known that providers are not allowed to do any modifications to the WP7 UI. Universally. If you didn't know this, how do you expect anyone to take your comments on WP7 seriously. It's one of the most discussed aspects of WP7 compared to older WinMo phones. It is also one of the things that has been debated in the Nokia deal.

Do I believe you when you say you have tested a WP7 phone? No, I don't, since you claim that it suffers in areas where everybody else says it shines. Why would your, and only your, experience be different? -- that is, unless the only thing you tested on the phone was the Twitter client (which isn't shipped with the phone, so I don't see how that could be). The official Twitter client for WP7 has performance issues for sure.

Re:well regarded ?

[Sabriel]

Oh, I see what you mean. Locked SIM = no data via cellular. Heh.

Re:well regarded ?

[Sabriel]

I didn't know that. As far as smartphones go I'm little more than a newbie end-user, which I suspect is pretty much on the opposite end of the spectrum from someone like yourself who does mobile development for a living? I tested - if one can call five to ten minutes per phone testing - start UI, call UI, contacts UI, calendar UI, and google syncing. And in my newbie end-user opinion the iphones and androids felt faster and less clunky, and the iphone UI felt 'slick', all of which I should fully admit are subjective observations (and given the issues I've since experienced, one might say the 'slick' has worn off).

I apologise for stating as fact my personal opinion.

Re:well regarded ?

[jon3k]

Your experience with Windows7 Phone runs counterintuitive to every major publication's published reviews. Please post a video of your slow and/or buggy WP7 device, until then no one is going to believe you. Put simply: put up or shut up.

Re:well regarded ?

[Sabriel]

Eh, I'll just shut up. Building a time machine would be too much like work. :p

Re:well regarded ?

[oliverthered]

that would be an ex-gay man against freedom.

Clearly MS needs to place another senior executive

[Anonymous Coward]

This is like the arranged marriages for diplomatic advantage of yore, no? Same function, same result.

Good.

[NFN_NLN]

Good. I don't have WP7, but that's because I owned WM6.5. In order to import contacts you HAD TO HAVE Outlook. You couldn't import from a text file. A simple list of names and phone numbers required a full install of Outlook. FU

Re:Good.

[SpryGuy]

WP6.5 has no relation to WP7.

WP7 can import your contacts from Facebook, from Windows Live Contacts, and other places, including google contacts.

WP7 is completely unrealted to WP6.5. It's a refresh and wipe and start-over. As such, I don't think it's yet ready for prime-time (still behind iPhone and Android in features, and will be playing catch-up for the next year or two... but also has some things that are simply better than iPhone or Android, because it started out fresh and doens't have historical baggage).

Anyway, there are lots of valid reasons to not want to move to WP7... it just doesn't seem to me that your reason is one of them.

Re:Good.

[ozmanjusri]

but also has some things that are simply better than iPhone or Android,

Such as?

Re:Good.

[SpryGuy]

Well, the camera is certainly faster and better integrated than on the iPhone (or most Android devices). Dedicated camera button means you can take pictures quickly without having to go through all you have to on iOS to get to the point where you're ready to take a pic.

XBox Live integration is something you can't get anywhere else.

The Office integration is interesting, though won't be a big deal for me. Still, you won't find Word and Excel on other phones.

The Zune Pass for all-you-can-eat Music is pretty killer, actually... it's one of the better music and video phones out there.

Standard FM tuner that isn't present on other devices.

The Hubs concept of deep integration is really interesting and useful.

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure I could come up with others if given more time and research.

(Disclaimer: I follow WP7 but don't own one... I use iOS/iPhone 4)

Re:Good.

[hawkingradiation]

Besides all the integration with other Microsoft products...let's divert this discussion to if we actually need to use Microsoft products. Usually it is all or nothing. XBox live, Office, Zune are them. And what of "The Hubs concept of deep integration?". Also I thought that Windows Phone 7 was a more or less universal operating system for cell phones. What is preventing some other operating system that is universal from having that same button for photos? Are you talking about a specific model of phone that no other manufacture has? Same thing with the standard FM tuner. Is that exclusive to Win 7 phones? And what gave you the insight to predict that Windows 7 will catch up with such time? To me you are portraying it as a different sort of beast which makes me wonder if it is really far behind either. Maybe the reason it is behind it because it doesn't have market share and because it doesn't have market share it is behind. Kind of ironic when the same reason Linux is behind in desktop usage is for the same reason eh? Enjoy.

Re:Good.

[Eponymous Coward]

WP7 is definitely related to WP6.5. The entire UI/shell layer is new, but the core OS is still CE. Dump the emulator kernel image and you will find CE kernel files.

The start-over is from the user's perspective.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

So how do you import contacts into an iPhone from a text file? Through Address Book/Outlook Express and THEN through iTunes? Yes, so much better.

Re:Good.

[dbIII]

Still, you won't find Word and Excel on other phones.

Apart from for instance the Nokia N900 and whatever else "Docs to Go" has been ported to.
The N900 was dropped like a hot potato (software updates stopped etc) with the new ex-Microsoft CEO at Nokia but I'm sure there is something somewhere more current that can do it.

Re:Good.

[ozmanjusri]

Hardware dependant

Vertical market leverage/lockin

Attempted vertical market leverage/lockin, (Olive Office http://www.oliveoffice.com/ is free for personal use on Android)

Vertical market leverage/lockin

Present on every Android I have access to.

Copy/pasted from MS promo material, and not true. There's a few social networking activities that may be marginally easier, but it's more confusing and error-prone.

Apart from the leverage/lockin stuff, which all OSs have some element of (iTunes, Google Apps etc), there's nothing it's bringing to the game.

Re:Good.

[BagOBones]

You can load contacts into an iPhone via Gmail if you want if you have it setup via activesync/exchange mode or a .99c app will let you import a csv..

You could do this with free and pay apps available for windows mobile 5.x-6.x as well.

Re:Good.

[PiSkyHi]

On the N900, I want Microsoft word suuport and I don't pay for Docs-to-go, I use either Abiword for simple docs or OpenOffice for stronger compatibility, I also use Gnumeric.

Re:Good.

[SpryGuy]

Isn't that the only perspective that actually matters to users? Which is what we're talking about here?

Re:Good.

[hawkingradiation]

I just want to add to those out there: Microsoft doesn't have a mandate to be the latest and greatest thing out there for every single device and every single platform. Get over it Microsoft. Focus on something you are good at instead of trying to be jack of all trages and a master of none. You did it with operating systems. But Bill Gates premise was that you could produce copies of something that took relatively little to make. Now with cell phones, the cost is in the software as the hardware is less expensive. Also, people have got better at producing operating systems and because they can be created over time and get better that way, the market for even a smaller priced operating system is going to be going away. Find something new, be good at it, and realize that economies change with new technology. Now if we could get the RIAA and MPAA to realize that! To all the fanbois.

Re:Good.

[SpryGuy]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think it brings an innovative new UI to the game (rather than the "me too" of Android's copying of iOS's aging UI). I think it brings a new concept in app development (with the Hubs and deep integration, rather than separate walled-garden app silos). I think it brings much easier development environment and better tools to developers. And the things like the dedicated camera button are spec'd out, so on the WP7 platform, it's NOT hardware dependent. It's a useful thing for WP7 users that they can just assume is there, regardless of model. Something that is NOT there on iOS, and which is only present on a very few select Android devices.

WP7 brings to the table a "middle-ground" between the monopoly of iOS (one manufacturer, one device in each generation, rigid control) and the anarchy and wild-west of Android (with device fragmentation, questionable timing of major updates, wildly varrying hardware specs, approaching hundreds of devices making choices difficult). We'll see how it goes, but it seems to be a good middle ground from where I'm standing... somewhere I'd rather be than the other two options currently available.

Re:Good.

[517714]

I have a WM6.5 phone and WP7 offers so much less with little prospect of that being corrected in the next two years.

Multitasking is gone, at least for third party apps. Microsoft promises it later.

No Flash. Microsoft promises it later.

Office Integration - no cut and paste? Microsoft promises it later. No aftermarket app that truly does the job, like SoftMaker - coming soon to Android, not WM7

With Hubs Microsoft seems to created ^h^h^h^h^h^h^hcopied a nice interface by using some of the best front end ideas (UI's) from their WM6 phone manufacturers like HTC and app developers like SPB, Resco, and others and abandoned these same developers by changing the Dev tools and programming language. Few of the developers of the apps I use say they are going to port current or develop new apps for WP7. The good news is that all apps (dozens) should be available on Microsoft's Windows Mobile Market Place or maybe they'll change the name since WM is out and WP is in.

Apple may have garden walls for its apps, but Microsoft will have cemetery plots.

Disclaimer: I've owned WM since it was CE, but Android's next for me.

Re:Good.

[dakohli]

I think it brings an innovative new UI to the game (rather than the "me too" of Android's copying of iOS's aging UI).

Umm, I have used both, and while I see some similarities, Android is not a "copy" of iOS. Android brings widgets to the screen, in order to get info, I do not have to open an App. I have much greater flexibility in customising pages, The notification system is very different. I can even switch out the launcher for another if I want.

I see most of the phone UI's share some features, where they differ is implementation of details. When I used an iPhone (3gs) the thing I missed the most was the ability to have widgets on the screen. I used a task manager, and a weather display on my previous phone. I also didn't appreciate all of my apps spread across many screens. Although it got better when folders became available. The other thing I really didn't like was the lack of a file system. I couldn't easily access my files. Of course, not having removable memory was a pain as well. I won't even mention my hate-hate relationship with iTunes.

I have not used wp7. I would be very interested in someone listing some of the features in comparison to Android and iOS. I do understand that it may not support removable memory, although the onboard memory can be augmented in some phones by a micro-SD card. So, what does the windows phone bring to the fight?

Re:Good.

[MichaelSmith]

My LG Optimus (running Android) has a camera button but I prefer to use a shortcut icon to take pictures.

Re:Good.

[oliverthered]

"Well, the camera is certainly faster and better integrated than on the iPhone (or most Android devices). Dedicated camera button means you can take pictures quickly without having to go through all you have to on iOS to get to the point where you're ready to take a pic."

My symbain phones do this and I could get my HTC wildfire to do it... just did. (could use voice or other things too I expect... no shake with voice)

and I have a more camera like camera if I want to do real camera like stuff.

Standard FM tuner that isn't present on other devices.

Got one on my wildfire and my Mrs has on her symbian.

The Zune Pass for all-you-can-eat Music is pretty killer, actually... it's one of the better music and video phones out there.

their are other free services... and some of them even have free music... but I can stream from home too.

XBox Live integration is something you can't get anywhere else.

won't own one.

Still, you won't find Word and Excel on other phones.

well I get other things... and may be able to run wine / crossover on android... maybe not.

Re:Good.

[terjeber]

Wow. I don't drive cars, since I once tried to ride a horse and it shat all over the road when you were "driving" it. Moron.

Re:Good.

[terjeber]

• Connectivity. With the same provider I have coverage with my WP7 phone where iPhone has nothing.
• Integration, when I update a contact that is attached to my gmail account, the account gets updated on the phone and in gmail (not so with iPhone) and when I change info on a Facebook contact the facebook data for that contact gets updated (iPhone, Google: "face book contact? Huh?").
• Programming environment. VS2010 and SL for WP7 is several years ahead of anything for iPhone or Android. I can put together connected cloud applications in a fraction of the time I can do the same on iPhone and Andriod. Important to me since I do enterprise app dev,
• UI, it has some things that MS needs to change, but it leaves Android and iPhone in the 1980s.

Re:Good.

[Gorshkov]

- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't

There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those that understand binary, and those that don't.

Re:Good.

[toriver]

Microsoft shill is shilling? "in the 1980s" - it sounds more like you were born after the 1980s...

The WP7 interface is different but not better as a consequence. Already, people have run into issues where some title was longer than the space available and intuitively they wanted to scroll over to see the rest, but "scrolling" just switched to the next panel instead, leaving the previous title behind. How good is that to the end user?

Re:Good.

[David Gerard]

The marketing phrase (1, 2) appears to be "head and shoulders above the iPhone" - they seem to think that if they say that a lot people might believe it.

So yeah, it's got a standardised website commenter buzz phrase. iPhone and Android don't!

Re:Good.

[DeadSeaTrolls]

WP6.5 has no relation to WP7.

Woosh, his point was that Microsoft pissed in his Corn Flakes on their last visit, and they won't be invited back just because they put some new pants on.

Re:Good.

[somersault]

And why would you rather be in this "middle ground"? Other than the fact that ALL >2,000,000 UID /. accounts so far have been subtly trying to big up MS while subtly dismissing Apple and Google? Because of a camera button? Because it's linked to your XBOX? What use is that? The unlimited Zune thing sounded okay, but the Spotify app does exactly the same thing.

My Android has a camera button, though in fact I'd prefer it didn't. Happily it is disabled on my preferred custom ROM. The wonderful thing about the Android platform is choice.

Re:Good.

[fwarren]

No not really. If there are no apps, there are no users. Developers, Developers, Developers is the siren call of Monkey Boy. He is right. There must be developers to have applications. Even with old fashioned CE under the hood, you can run WM 6.0 or WM 6.5 apps on WP 7. So developers have to learn new tools.

There are developers, apps, the sweet smell of success and money to be made over with the iPhone/iPad.

There are developers, apps, the sweet smell of success and money to be over with the Android.

There is no guarantee with Microsoft. The devices are not out there in great numbers, the App store is empty. All the other developers are on the iPhone/Android. Since Microsoft is forcing you to learn from scratch. Would your time be better invested where you can make money today on the iPhone or Android?

Lets not forget Microsofts stellar track record in this market. WInCE apps don't run on WM 5, WM 5 apps need work to run on WM 6 and WM 6.5 and everything has to be rewritten in a new language to be used on WP 7. As a developer you can be pretty sure your iPhone 4 app will run just fine on the iPhone 5 or the iPhone 6. As a Microsoft developer there is no guarantee that your WP 7 app will run on WP 7.5 let alone WP 8.

From a developer standpoint I am just not feeling the love.

Re:Good.

[somersault]

WINE only works on x86 architectures, ie "Wine Is Not an Emulator"

Re:Good.

[robzon]

My Android phone has a FM tuner and a dedicated camera button. As for integration with MS products I couldn't care less (but I see that for some people it could be an advantage).

Re:Good.

[mystikkman]

Windows Phone Marketplace fastest to hit 10,000 app milestone

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/cell-phones/windows-phone-marketplace-fastest-to-hit-10000-app-milestone/5596

App stop is empty? Stop shilling for mod points by posting BS.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

You spotting that proves you are "head and shoulders" above the rest of the slashdot crowd :D

Re:Good.

[zach_the_lizard]

You get all that for the price of a worse web browser plus nagging issues like no copy and paste (though the update to fix that should be out soon). If you don't use much in the way of Microsoft products, it's a wash. Developing for WP7 is decent, though some of the missing classes from Silverlight leave me scratching my head.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

His UID isn't above 2 million actually - it's near 200 thousand :P. In any event, if he is shilling, it's not as awful as devxo's. He kinda just sounds like a fan.

Re:Good.

[hxnwix]

10,000 silverlight apps, each crappier than the last.

Re:Good.

[faragon]

Right, but you could use QEMU for launching WINE on non-x86 platforms.

Re:Good.

[ElderKorean]

• Integration, when I update a contact that is attached to my gmail account, the account gets updated on the phone and in gmail (not so with iPhone) and when I change info on a Facebook contact the facebook data for that contact gets updated (iPhone, Google: "face book contact? Huh?").

In the facebook app for an iPhone you can tell it to sync infomation with your contacts, it does at least picture, phone numbers and birthdays (I've never checked other information). You can tell it to keep them synced automagically or disable the sync and do the update once.

There's even a website that will copy facebook events into Outlook and you can then sync that with your iPhone though I would prefer it if the facebook app could do that too.

Though I would also like Gmail and iPhone contacts to get along nicely as well.

Re:Good.

[Ant P.]

So what they're saying is that in the trench warfare that is the mobile phone industry, Microsoft is the only one stupid enough to stick their head up over the top

Re:Good.

[terjeber]

In the facebook app for an iPhone you can tell it to sync infomation with your contacts,

Who cares? I don't want an app to sync my Facebook contacts, another to sync my gmail contacts, a third to sync my Exchange contacts etc. I want my contacts, you know, all the ones I have on my phone, not in specific applications, to sync. This is one of the new aspects of the WP7 phone, you deal with data and entities. Not apps.

Compared to the WP7 phone, the iPhone looks like it was invented some time in the 1980s.

Re:Good.

[terjeber]

I went to college in the 1980s, so no, I am not that young. Is the WP7 experience perfect? Not even close. Are there badly designed apps out there? Sure. What you are describing sounds like someone using the Pivot view and not enabling wrapping where they (the software developer making the app that is) should have enabled wrapping. I saw some of that in early test versions of one of my apps, and I fixed it.

I wouldn't blame the phone or the OS for bad developer choices however.

Re:Good.

[JamesP]

"head and shoulders over the iPhone"

Does this means WP7 is like iOS, but with dandruff?!

Re:Good.

[shutdown -p now]

So, what does the windows phone bring to the fight?

The main differentiator would be UI. It's kinda hard to describe - if you have a Windows box, best thing is to download the emulator (comes as part of VS Phone Express, which is free) and try it for yourself.

When I used an iPhone (3gs) the thing I missed the most was the ability to have widgets on the screen.

Widgets ("tiles" in WP7 parlance) are there, and in fact the main UI is kinda centered around them. They are merged with apps, though - when you pin the app to the main screen, it becomes a tile. If app does nothing to support it, it'll simply be a shortcut to launch; otherwise, it can be used for notifications and such. A big limitation there, though, is that tiles aren't really programs, like on Android - they're implemented via push notifications, so you need a server to push them from.

The other thing I really didn't like was the lack of a file system. I couldn't easily access my files.

This is the case of WP7 also. In fact, it's even somewhat worse, because on iPhone apps can at least communicate between themselves (via URLs, I believe). On WP7 there's no such thing - the best you can do is to communicate via some Web service, and that needs online connectivity.

I won't even mention my hate-hate relationship with iTunes.

WP7 needs Zune Software. Personally I found it to be somewhat better than iTunes (at least it's not as slow!), but the requirement to have it installed simply to copy files to/from phone is still annoying.

Re:Good.

[shutdown -p now]

SoftMaker - coming soon to Android

Wow, thanks for telling. SoftMaker on Android would be awesome, especially on tablets. When that comes, it (+ Touchdown) would in fact make Android the enterprise platform of choice, if only they also add OS-wide proxy support.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. I won't buy a horse from you since the last one turned out to be fit only for the knackers yard. Arse-wipe.

Re:Good.

[somersault]

Okay.. but it seems an awful lot of unnecessary RAM use when you could just port OpenOffice instead..

Re:Good.

[somersault]

Ah weird, with all the new accounts recently I saw it as over 2000000. Really need to be more careful. Yeah I find it hard to believe that some people really believe that stuff sometimes, though I get reality checks from my flatmate from time to time. He really liked WP7s interface, loves iTunes, AppleTV, iPads, etc etc... he doesn't like that he's locked in, but he also doesn't want to miss out on the latest and "coolest" gadgets, which is how he managed to lock himself in in the first place. I prefer to wait a little while until things have developed standards, or at least some kind of competition.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

They tried lock in again, and now they are getting their rocks smashed for it. Good. Its a stupid trick, and the CEO might fall for it over and over, but for a single person buying a phone, they want to put on it what they want to put on it, not what some nutter in Redmond wants. Android doesn't make that mistake. Its clean, polished, and it offers people all the choices they want, not 'lock in' and 'you have to upgrade', and 'pay us more money for stuff the others provide for free'. The article has a bunch of 'transparent as a screen door' mickeysoft astroturfers on it. Half a sentence and you can tell that they are paid schills for the beast. Its a "paid" pro-mickeysoft site, so I would expect nothing less. If they are already paid up and visiting the site, at least feed them a little more kool-aid(tm). One guy even got slammed for stating that he wanted choices, and didn't want to be locked into certain products in order to do stuff on his phone. The astroturfers claimed he was 'anti-microsoft'. My thoughts were that he's just being smart. If the other guys provide better stuff for free, and its easier (and you don't have to type in some stupid code, plus your credit card number), and mickeysoft still doesn't understand that, then they really don't deserve anyones business. I suppose thats what I like about Android and some of the others the best: you get a whole whack of free stuff, no one is corralling you into their pen, they don't care how many times you download the free applications (they aren't even keeping score), and the only time they want to hear from you is when something isn't working right, then they either help you or fix it (or both).

Re:Good.

[RogerWilco]

To me it's not how closely related it is technologically to the earlier WinCE/PocketPC/WM/WP versions.

What matters to me is how Microsoft handled the mobile OS market for more than a decade. That will not change so easily, as it's deeply part of their culture.
I don't trust them to deliver a consistent long term high quality product. They don't innovate on their own, they only put in an effort if they are facing fierce competition and if they think they can deliver a crushing defeat. I've been burned to many times when choosing MS to still go with them. What annoyed me most, is that their products are often useless, unless you have the entire ecosystem, with Office, Exchange, Windows, ActiveSync, etc. I would constantly be frustrated by not having a certain piece of software, or not the right version and in the end several devices became useless to me, while still functioning, because there was just no combination of hardware and software that would be able to function, especially if your device was 2-3 years old or you had multiple devices from different generations.

I don't believe MS can fundamentally offer a better experience there, as it's too tied up with trying to couple it's Office, Windows, back office and mobile products.

Re:Good.

[karnal]

WM6.5 (still running it) as well as 6.1 fully syncs with Google's contact list via activesync (m.google.com). Yea, the Outlook thing freaked me out at first too - until I started doing some homework.

Re:Good.

[jrumney]

.... but also has some things that are simply better than iPhone or Android, because it started out fresh and doesn't have historical baggage).

iPhone and Android have historical baggage?

Re:Good.

[jrumney]

when I change info on a Facebook contact the facebook data for that contact gets updated

Shilling is one thing - outright lying is another. Changing other people's facebook profiles is not something that is in Microsoft's power to do.

Re:Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course WP7 has a relation to WP6.5. It came after it.

If I buy a loaf of bread and it's terrible... I'm not going to buy that brand again, no matter what the new packaging is. Those loaves of bread are also related.

Re:Good.

[Max Littlemore]

WP7 needs Zune Software. Personally I found it to be somewhat better than iTunes (at least it's not as slow!), but the requirement to have it installed simply to copy files to/from phone is still annoying.

Well that kills it for me... I use my phone as external storage and wifi hotspot when I am on sight supporting customers. If I have to have iTunes or Zune software installed to copy files around, it is useless to me. I have a work supplied iPhone4 and I still carry my personal phone for that very reason.

Also, I don't run Windows or OS X at home, so It would be a frustrating experience.

Re:Good.

[shutdown -p now]

I use my phone as external storage and wifi hotspot when I am on sight supporting customers. If I have to have iTunes or Zune software installed to copy files around, it is useless to me.

Oh, you want WiFi hotspot as well - and for free, I bet? what a commie! ~

(WP7 doesn't have any kind of tethering at all; iPhone does, but as I'm sure you know you have to pay for the privilege - at least in US)

With such requirements you really don't have any choice other than Android. Then again, it's a good choice.

Re:Good.

[Paul1969]

Windows Phone Marketplace fastest to hit 10,000 app milestone

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/cell-phones/windows-phone-marketplace-fastest-to-hit-10000-app-milestone/5596

App stop is empty? Stop shilling for mod points by posting BS.

In related news, a crowd of dazed, starving and dehydrated developers were found wandering along a rural highway in central Washington State. None had any idea of how they came to be there, or any memory of the past 90 days.

Re:Good.

[terjeber]

You are absolutely correct, Facebook contact data can not be changed.

Re:Good.

[ExodeusIS]

"Well, the camera is certainly faster and better integrated than on the iPhone (or most Android devices). Dedicated camera button means you can take pictures quickly without having to go through all you have to on iOS to get to the point where you're ready to take a pic." What are you talking about clicking in a app in the home screen and then on a button that has a camera on it very complicated indeed takes 2 seconds form a locked state on my iPhone4.

Microsoft's "Problem"

[saboosh]

FTFA: "But I think Microsoft should understand that it doesn’t have an engineering or a product problem, it has a marketing problem and that it needs to address it" I tend to ignore anyone who tries to explain a trend (or lack there of) in the mobile space but I agree with this point. As a mobile developer I was pleasantly surprised by how easy and "fun" it could be to build a WP7 app. The development tools arent too bad and seem pretty mature. Also, aside from the Windows-Live nagging I have found the OS to be fairly well engineered, which is saying a lot in the current Mobile OS landscape. All that said I dont know what else could be attributed to how ZTE, LG, and the market in general have responded to WP7 other than the poor marketing.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anonymous Coward]

Who gave Microsoft shills mod points? We need metamodding again.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anonymous Coward]

All that said I dont know what else could be attributed to how ZTE, LG, and the market in general have responded to WP7 other than the poor marketing.

How about lack of support? Let's have a look at the updates they've shipped so far:

1) A mini update that added no new major features (I don't think it added any features at all, actually), that managed to brick a considerable number of users' devices
2) A pre-update that updates their updating mechanism

And that's it. The phone is missing features compared to other mobile operating systems. Microsoft seems to have no plan in place to catch up.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[amiga3D]

I've watched the marketing attempts. Overall I'd have to say their marketing is much better than WP7. It could be that people aren't buying windows phones not because they are bad phones but because the droid and iphones are better. One thing you've got to remeber is, while you as a developer may love wp7 that means nothing at all to the people that buy phones.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[ozmanjusri]

I have found the OS to be fairly well engineered,

So are bricks, which is all your phone'll be useful for after their next update...

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[SpryGuy]

Agreed. And this was their problem with Zune as well. The Zune80/120 was better than the iPod Classic in almost every way. Better UI on the device. Better software and better UI on the computer side of things. Better sound quality. Better quality earbuds. More and better features.

But thanks to the lame first generation, and the lack of any decent marketing from that point on... it completely (and undeservedly) fizzled in the marketplace.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[SpryGuy]

You're confused or uninformed (or misinformed).

The updates you refer to in (1) and (2) are the same update. They had some issues getting out the door and getting the update train running. Hopefully that's all smoothed out now.

And the first "real" update is scheduled for next week. It includes copy/paste, faster app launching, and a few other features.

A major update is scheduled for next fall, that includes a lot of new features, from multi-tasking to IE9/HTML5 support, etc. So yes, they DO have a plan to 'catch up', and in fact have been pretty clear in communicating it (they've showed off the fall update recently, demonstrating many of its new features).

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Missing.Matter]

No plan? There's an update coming out soon to add copy/paste and performance enhancements, and there's an update coming in the fall bringing multitasking, a new browser . Android 1.1 was released 5 months after Android 1.0. Windows Phone 7 has been out for just about 5 months, so if this update comes soon they seem to be on par with Android release cycles.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[riyad.parvez]

>FTFA: "But I think Microsoft should understand that it doesn’t have an engineering or a product problem, it has a marketing problem >and that it needs to address it" Are you kidding? M$ has marketing problem!!!

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Missing.Matter]

But the Zune had almost no marketing at all. The only ads I ever saw were some late night ads on Adult Swim, which was for Zune Pass and didn't even show the device.

By contrast, I've seen WP7 ads on facebook and around the internet, I've seen TV ads, and hear at least one WP7 ad on the radio every time I'm in the car.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anthony Mouse]

One thing you've got to remeber is, while you as a developer may love wp7 that means nothing at all to the people that buy phones.

This is an excellent point. Microsoft is accustomed to having huge market share and trying to woo developers to their platforms (and away from other platforms) by making reasonable developer tools (which don't produce cross-platform binaries). In this case how easy it is to develop for WP7 is almost totally irrelevant right now, because developers aren't going to want to spend resources writing non-portable applications for WP7 if nobody is buying the phones.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anonymous Coward]

Many in the electronics industry remember the power Microooft used to have and don't want a repeat.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Enderandrew]

The developer tools might be decent but the finished product of what they shipped now is still 5 steps behind what everyone else is offering.

I'm not a massive Microsoft hater. I'm just being honest. A decent API for developing apps, and a decent interface (Metro) don't overcome the massive shortcomings, not to mention it is also easy to develop iPhone and Android apps currently.

Windows Mobile is a massive sinking ship.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Kevin Fishburne]

That's funny, because "marketing" (or lack thereof) is an argument a lot of open source advocates use for why Linux isn't taking over the world yet. Oh wait, it is taking over. I guess open source finally got its marketing together and Microsoft's went to shit overnight. Go figure. While yes, people are generally stupid and buy in to well-choreographed marketing schemes, that kind of bullshit can only take a company so far.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Kevin Fishburne]

I got an EXTENDED laugh out loud on that one. Awesome.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[davester666]

Fortunately, Microsoft hasn't been that eager to put out updates to WP7...

From the reports of the failure of some phones to update the updater [which I find hilarious], it seems like the manufacturers are keeping with the classic method of development, namely to ship phones with a given model name, but continue development of the software for the device during production, and secretly give newer phones better software [presumably] than earlier phones, and not provide any method for earlier phones to get the better software. And since it's software that the carrier worked on, it's not clear if you would get the better software ever [as in, say, part of a WP7 update].

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[dbIII]

The Zune80/120 was better than the iPod Classic in almost every way.

Kept charged it even has 99.7% uptime in a leap year!

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Oloryn]

Well, given that Microsoft currently has a marketing campaign that seems to be trying to communicate "We designed our phones to be so boring that you don't pay as much attention to it as you would pay attention to other smartphones", and is trying to present this as a good thing, it's hard to dispute that Microsoft has a marketing problem. I'm just not sure that that's their only problem.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[whoever57]

FTFA: "But I think Microsoft should understand that it doesnâ(TM)t have an engineering or a product problem, it has a marketing problem and that it needs to address it"

You are being disingenuous with that quote. The article is about comments made by "Wu Sa, ZTEâ(TM)s U.K. director of mobile device operations", but the words you quoted are a comment by the author of the article, not by the above ZIE executive. They are words by someone whose livelihood is following Microsoft.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Missing.Matter]

Right, because someone who holds an opinion different from yours could only be on Microsoft's payroll.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Wizard Drongo]

+1 for this one; got a genuine giggle from that!

Having been involved on the fringes of a microsoft-backed WP7 project (sub-contractor to the sub-contractor to the sub-contractor kinda deal), I can say the OS, ok it's not iOS, but it's a lot better than what you'd expect from a Microsoft mobile effort. But the hardware-software interlink is awful, shoddy and downright crap, it has NOTHING on the iPhone experience, and where it really, really falls down is the fact that, MS-backed (financed) projects aside, not much is being made because it's almost as easy as iOS to write for, with no actual plus points; no community, no customers, no hype, no nothing.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[pinkushun]

It sure is a marketing problem, "-- the drop the phone in the urinal ads --".
Seriously now, they probably meant "social stigma" when they said "marketing problem".

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anonymous Coward]

Troll, shouldn't bite but wtf.

First of all you argue like that's the only argument, which is silly. You ignore the inconvenient fact - from the pro Windows troll POV - that 90% of all desktop computers and pretty damned close to 100% of all laptops are sold with Windows pre-installed and that it's pretty much impossible to find a system without it. I wonder what kind of market share Linux have in kind of audience who are clever enough to build their own systems... I bet it's more than the one percent figure that is en vogue to credit it with, in the pro-windows camp that is.

Whatever offerings exist are usually from garage sale companies you never know for how long they'll exist, or not only not marketed but extremely well hidden away, such as Dell's, and simply not sold at all in certain markets. I'm sure all that has nothing to do with the continued Windows hegemony we're seeing.

Your brilliant arguments have convinced me that if the numbers were reversed, everyone would run their legs off to buy a copy of Windows, all associated applications, and then spend significant amounts of energy repartitioning and installing Windows, all the needed drivers after tracking them down all over the Internet and spend a few days to get their applications and viruses in order, because it's just so damned superior. Sure.

Secondly, you're using Windows Phone's lack of progress as "proof" that marketing has no effect, and thus if Linux had more marketing, still few would use it, which is such an utterly ridiculous assertion that it doesn't even deserve an answer.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[ozmanjusri]

Overall I'd have to say their marketing is much better than WP7.

It should be.

They've paid half a billion dollars for it. http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/26/microsoft-half-billion-dollars-windows-phone-7/

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anonymous Coward]

That is one of Microsofts biggest problems, they are looking at what developers want and what developers can do instead of what people want and what is secure to do. It works on the PC platform because there is no choice, you can buy a PC WITH Windows or a Mac with OS X (and the explosive grow of OS X should have lighten some warning lights at Redmond, but it has not), but in the mobile phone industry there is too many well established players to use their standard strategy.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anonymous Coward]

Another jackass with a literacy problem. It's spelled Microsoft, you fucking retard.

Also, try a question mark and only 1 exclamation mark.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[David Gerard]

The trouble with the Zune? They (a) put wifi in (b) didn't put a web browser in. They could have had the iPod Touch beaten by six months and made everyone realise they could have a full working Internet in their pocket! ... and they just didn't. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anonymous Coward]

So, after Android and Apple have been delivering outstanding user experiences for years, WP7 is FINALLY catching up to such advanced features as cut and paste and shipping a worthwhile browser. If these are the "major features" being sent out to users, they have no hope.

Android phones are shipping with NFC chips. They have outstanding voice support and voice actions built into the OS. They have tethering and wifi hotspot options. Microsoft saying "hey, now you can copy text!" isn't going to cut it.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[NickFortune]

Right, because someone who holds an opinion different from yours could only be on Microsoft's payroll.

Second time in two days that meme has surfaced. To be fair, though, there does seem to be a pattern to these things

1: News story breaks impacting on Microsoft in some way

2: Story gets posted to Slashdot.

3: A thoughtful, well-written and strongly pro-Microsoft comment gets quickly posted and rapidly modded up to +5

4: The rest of slashdot gets to read the article, and it quickly becomes apparent that the early post isn't at all representative of the majority opinion on Slashdot.

This seems to happen fairly consistently. which tends to suggest that Microsoft advocacy on this board is very well organised. So it's not unreasonable to assume that some degree of astroturfing is going on.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[DeadSeaTrolls]

But Apple seems to have problems whenever Day Light Savings switches in/out, which seems to occurs more regularly than four years.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anonymous Coward]

So it's not unreasonable to assume that some degree of astroturfing is going on.

Yes it is. Advocacy =/= astroturfing, for a start.

One day people will realise that Slashdot means fuck all to Microsoft in the war on minds - the site is already a lost cause.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[RotateLeftByte]

you (and almost everyone here) forget that MS in its infinte wisdom did not even launch let alone promote the Zune in Europe. wtf? If it was such a hot music player why on earth didn't hey do that.
Did they offer it in Asia?
Did they offer it in S. America?

The Zune was a failure full stop. It might have had some advantages over the iPod but when the majority of the worlds population can't buy one then it has to be regarded as a failure. MS never explained why they didn't launch it worldwide.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anonymous Coward]

If they wanted to be a little more clever in marketing their phone product, Microsoft would have it link to Sync in some way. And they have to make sure that it's as seamless as possible. At least then their phones might be a little more attractive to Ford owners.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[cyber-vandal]

Linux is everywhere right now. It can be found in mobile phones, TVs, settop boxes, blu ray players, NAS, not to mention all the servers that run it. OK these devices are not running Ubuntu but from where I'm sitting Linux has taken over the world. It couldn't get traction on the desktop for a number of reasons but now that the desktop is becoming less relevant Linux is coming to the fore in a big way.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[fwarren]

Microsoft is not out of the game yet. I can't see a lot of people buying a WP 7 in the next 4 to 6 months, hoping that those updates do happen this year. Most of the people I know who have been WM 5 or WM 6 users have jumped ship to Android. My boss was sick and tired of having the phone lock up at the oddest times and it taking over a minute to reboot a phone. There is no excuse for that. It may very well be the fault of the hardware manufacturer, not of Microsoft, but the results are still the same. I don't know anyone with a cell phone of any type who is saying "my next phone will be WP 7" No matter how hardcore of a Windows Mobile user they have been in the past. People who would mock me for not drinking the kool-aid and being on the Microsoft bandwagon, have all jumped ship when it comes to WP 7.

Once they owned 25% of this market, and now they are under 10% and shrinking fast. They are no where near feature parity with the iPhone. In many ways Microsoft has been 2 to 3 years late to the game since 2004. I know business used to be big buyers, but lest face it. For every WP 7 phone you give to an employee, there is a spouse and 2 kids using an something that is not WP 7.

Even the marketing sucks. People know what an iPhone is. The commercials for Android products are cool. What do we get from Microsoft? That WP 7 lets you get done with Twitter and Facebook faster so you can get on with life? Seriously, that is what Microsoft has to offer. They out to put Jerry Seinfeld back out there with a Churro again for all the good it is doing them.

It is not OS 2, but there is something of the stink of death on WP 7.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[GravityStar]

Even if Windows phones are just as good as droids and iphones, the current market shares can be the determining factor in purchase decisions. Maybe what MS needs is to have WP7 be better than its competition. And that is going to be hard to do.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anonymous Coward]

I can say the OS, ok it's not iOS, but it's a lot better than what you'd expect from a Microsoft mobile effort.

They could use that in their adverts.

"WP7: It's a lot better than you'd expect from a Microsoft mobile effort."

Add a little end of advert jingle and it's a winner.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Kjella]

3: A thoughtful, well-written and strongly pro-Microsoft comment gets quickly posted and rapidly modded up to +5
4: The rest of slashdot gets to read the article, and it quickly becomes apparent that the early post isn't at all representative of the majority opinion on Slashdot.

Moderation isn't an "Agree/Disagree" vote, I don't know why you think it should be. To me this sounds exactly like how well reasoned minority opinions should be treated to get meaningful discussion.

It's pretty much establish canon that slashdot is extremely anti-Microsoft, like "The only thing Micro$oft would make that wouldn't suck is a vacuum cleaner. It would blow." category. Reality is a lot more complex, many people here probably manage Microsoft servers or desktops and think they're all right. Or at least that the bashing goes too far and that stories need a counterpoint. For a while it was fashionable to say "I know I'll get modded down for this, but..." and appeal to the anti-groupthink. I think pro-MS comments still get some of those, all in all what you describe sounds quite as expected.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[AmberBlackCat]

The problem with mobile phones and tablets is, the phone makers and phone companies don't like to update the operating system. They'd rather have you buy a new phone just to get the minor updates. That whole model, of selling crap with the promise of updating it later, won't work with mobile phones.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Lorien_the_first_one]

That seems pretty ironic considering that Microsoft seems to focus more on marketing than engineering.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Lorien_the_first_one]

While I think that marketing does help, it is worth noting that scaling for free is a lot more efficient. Yes, it took awhile, but once they figured out how to scale Linux on mobile devices it simply makes better sense for phone manufacturers to work with free tools and operating systems. On the other hand, with Microsoft, they get you, coming and going.

If Google prevails over Oracle in the "java" lawsuit started by Oracle, Microsoft (or their favorite proxy) is likely to come up with their own patent suit against Linux on phones should Google prevail against Oracle. That would be called "marketing" by Microsoft.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Bert64]

That update which is coming "soon" was previously scheduled to be available in january... Saying something is coming just doesn't cut it, the proof is when its actually delivered.
They might not even release updates at all, the Kin was due to be updated and that never happened.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Bert64]

Part of the problem is that windows phone 7 is still marketed as windows, and that's really not a good thing...

Very few people like windows, most people think it's an integral part of a desktop/laptop computer and can't see what it has to do with phones...
Windows mobile 6.x left a bad taste in many peoples mouths, it was extremely bad and people hated it, the new version might be better but users have been put off.
Many people associate windows with crashing and instability, not a desirable feature on phones... A lot of people think there is no alternative on desktops/laptops, but they know better alternatives exist for phones.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Anonymous Coward]

I have found the OS to be fairly well engineered,

So are bricks, which is all your phone'll be useful for after their next update...

u jelly?

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[NickFortune]

Moderation isn't an "Agree/Disagree" vote, I don't know why you think it should be.

... and I don't know why you think I think it should be. I haven't said anything remotely to that effect, and certainly nothing in the lines you quoted support that interpretation.

To me this sounds exactly like how well reasoned minority opinions should be treated to get meaningful discussion.

No objection to anyone moderating a truly interesting dissenting viewpoint as such. I've done as much myself.

But when a corporation organises a block of posters to vote up a specific message regardless - that's astroturfing, and it does little to improve the debate.

It's pretty much establish canon that slashdot is extremely anti-Microsoft, like "The only thing Micro$oft would make that wouldn't suck is a vacuum cleaner. It would blow." category. Reality is a lot more complex

Except apparently on slashdot where we're all rabidly anti-Microsoft?

all in all what you describe sounds quite as expected.

Expected != Desirable, however.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Missing.Matter]

... and I don't know why you think I think it should be. I haven't said anything remotely to that effect, and certainly nothing in the lines you quoted support that interpretation.

You said this:

3: A thoughtful, well-written and strongly pro-Microsoft comment gets quickly posted and rapidly modded up to +5

4: The rest of slashdot gets to read the article, and it quickly becomes apparent that the early post isn't at all representative of the majority opinion on Slashdot.

You seem to imply that a thoughtful, well-written pro Microsoft comment should not get modded up on Slashdot because the user base disagrees with it.

But when a corporation organises a block of posters to vote up a specific message regardless - that's astroturfing, and it does little to improve the debate.

So is your problem with the posters or the moderators?

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[NickFortune]

You seem to imply that a thoughtful, well-written pro Microsoft comment should not get modded up on Slashdot because the user base disagrees with it.

I don't say anything at all about what should happen. I am saying that the it rapidly becomes apparent that the moderation does not reflect the general prevailing opionion, which you do not seem to displute.

From this, and from the timing, I think we can conclude that the moderation is the result of a concerted and organised action from a minority group attempting to skew the discussion.

This is what's commonly known as astroturfing.

Wether the comments in question have any merit in their own varies according to the comment, and I make no attempt to to judge what moderation they should receive. I think it's safe to say however that a posting is not necessarily "interesting", "insightful" or "informative", simply because it represents the current talking points coming out of Redmond.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[NickFortune]

Yes it is. Advocacy =/= astroturfing, for a start.

Personally I draw distinction between advocacy that is the result of an individual promoting an honestly held opinion, and the organised attempts of corporate bodies to present propaganda is if it were honest opionion.

Clearly you don't agree. That's all right. You're entitled to your opinion.

One day people will realise that Slashdot means fuck all to Microsoft in the war on minds

On the other hand, here we do agree to a certain extent. I don't think Microsoft are particularly interested in Slashdot. I think they're interested in any tech or business forum that gets a lot of eyeballs.

The fact that we're discussing that behavior as it manifests here doesn't mean I'm according /. any special significance.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[RogerWilco]

Except for Apple. They do update the OS.

It's the main reason I have an iPhone.

Next to that I have a specific dislike of MS mobile offerings (I've used them since 1999), as they only offer full functionality if you also have Windows, Office, Exchange and such. And if you have an older device, or several from different generations, it becomes a nightmare to find combinations of ActiveSync, Windows, Office, etc. that support all the hardware you have, if it's properly supported at all. With Apple you get updates and support as long as your hardware can run the new version and no need to buy any other product to get full use out of the ones you already have.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[RogerWilco]

There have been to many cases of Microsoft promising something to be in the next release, but then taking ages to deliver on that promise, if at all, that I no longer believe them. I drank the cool aid when they announced Chicago/Windows'95, but stopped believing the fairy tales somewhere around 2000.
I still buy their stuff occasionally, but not based on promises, but on actually working hardware/software. And even then you can't be sure that your PlayForSure music will keep playing.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[RogerWilco]

If you live outside the USA, then you haven't seen anything Zune related, unless on some US website, if you're not blocking the adds.

I haven't seen anything Windows Mobile 7 related yet either. A little iPhone when a new carrier picks it up, and a lot of Android phones get advertised, but I have only seen stupid MS adds with some guys in suits that resemble the IE, Outlook and other icons, talking to each other about something I don't remember. MS used to advertise Windows XP and Vista quite heavily, but after that I have only seen this one add about the talking icons.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[RogerWilco]

Yeah, like how PlayForSure was such a great success.

The problem with Microsoft is that they have failed to deliver on their promises so many times, that nobody believes them any more.

The biggest problem that MS has, is that Google is using their old tactic and is doing a much better job then they can. MS never had a great product*, they would copy someone else's functionality and then flood the market cheaply though their existing monopolies and OEM connections. Google has upstaged them on this by supplying the OEMs with an even cheaper Android.
Apple isn't the competition, they do their own specific thing with close integration between hardware and software, and selling it as a high end appliance. The real fight is between Google and Microsoft for the OEMs and MS is loosing heavily.

*) Maybe IE4 and some versions of Excel.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Missing.Matter]

True, that's the most logical and safest approach to take. But the claim was Microsoft doesn't even have a roadmap for WP7 support, and that's just not true. Whether it's executed or not is a different matter.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[jrumney]

And the first "real" update is scheduled for next week. It includes copy/paste.

It feels like I've been reading that for at least 3 months. Is cut and paste on Windows Phone 7 going to be the next Duke Nukem Forever?

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[jrumney]

What do we get from Microsoft? That WP 7 lets you get done with Twitter and Facebook faster so you can get on with life?

And right there, with that marketing, they have killed the only market they could have carried over - the corporate Windows Mobile users who have been slow to make the jump to iPhone, Android or Blackberry.

Re:Microsoft's "Problem"

[Ol Olsoc]

Saboosh has it right, and you've dismissed AC way too easily, SpryGuy.

Microsoft marketing needs reminds me of what happened just last week. I had a computer to fix. Like a good boy, it had all the latest updates. Here comes one, and stuff just disappeared, it stopped playing flash videos, and hosed T-Bird. After a web search, it appeared that the only "cure" was to uninstall the update. After uninstalling as per instructions, it wouldn't see the C: drive. After making a new boot sector, it would boot to the desktop, then reboot. Again and again and again. Ended up needing a total reinstall. And this is not an isolated case.

Back to the phones.... So now something similar happens on the first W7 update. You dismiss it with a hopefully that's all smoothed out, but I look at it as a continuation of what happens if you buy one of their products. It's gonna break, and it will probably be Microsoft that is gonna break it.

Their challenge, and it is a big one, is to get rid of the perception a whole lot of people have, that owning a device powered by Microsoft is going to have some big issues. That one day your phone will work, and the next day you will install an update, and it won't.

3..2...1

[Anonymous Coward]

Cue the astroturfers; we know who you are (you've been "outed" a few times recently (Billy, via..., and numerous others). In their posts, they always capitalize "microsoft" and "windows phone 7"; they always mention iphone (rarely android), and usually end their comments with the words "windows phone 7."

Choose choice, always.

cheers,

Re:3..2...1

[kirbysuperstar]

Well, I don't MICROSOFT know how many astro-turfWINDOWS PHONE 7ers there are here, personally, but then I've iPhone never actually seen one. WINDOWS PHONE 7

Re:3..2...1

[Dr Herbert West]

Why is this guy modded down? Now I Android want to go back and Android read all posts, looking for shills by checking the "tells" listed above. Android. Those M$ punks can't fool me!
Wait, what? Dammit!

Re:3..2...1

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to forget the apple shills who write iphone as iPhone...

Re:3..2...1

[Kenshin]

I wasn't aware that capitalizing proper nouns made you an astroturfer. I guess I should be getting paid by everyone, then.

Microsoft got told.

[Anonymous Coward]

Awww snap!

Why? Only two possible reasons ...

[Auroch]

Either a) The chinese are frustrated by the security measures in place on W7 phones, and can't compete, or (much more likely) ... b) They've already been using W7 on their phones, but have changed the colours slightly. When challenged on the "so-called" similarities, they'll simply state that it was a Chinese invention first. Much like the RedBerry .

B? history repeating itself. A? ... well, I'm still waiting for a security measure on a computer that can be both practical and unhackable.

Re:Why? Only two possible reasons ...

[Daniel Phillips]

As far as I am concerned, ZTE is exhibiting amazingly good taste.

Re:Why? Only two possible reasons ...

[Auroch]

As far as I am concerned, ZTE is exhibiting amazingly good taste.

That's a valid point. Until you consider that ZTE has been recently charged with unauthorized software use (AKA: Piracy), in order to avoid licensing fees.

So they may be exhibiting good taste ... but only by accident, not out of choice.

Re:Why? Only two possible reasons ...

[PiSkyHi]

I think its all about the money really - Microsoft paid a billion to Nokia to save their sinking mobile OS, now they are of the opinion its worth something, they are probably charging money for hardware manufacturers to to use it, despite Microsoft being behind the curve against a free mobile OS.

Re:Why? Only two possible reasons ...

[bemymonkey]

Actually, ZTE are currently pumping out surprisingly decent Android handsets. For the past few months the ZTE Blade (AKA Orange San Francisco, Base Lutea and possibly a few other names) has been the go-to handset for Android newbies here in Europe (UK, Germany, Switzerland)... cheap, good specs (same as a HTC Legend but with more RAM and higher screen res), awesome.

Re:Why? Only two possible reasons ...

[dunkelfalke]

The phone is okay, but the buttons are somewhat difficult to press and the CPU is very slow.

smart executives holding out for more MS money

[Locutus]

if you don't know by now, Microsoft spends lots of money( billions ) getting people to use their stuff and get some market share. I've seen the Chinese government play games with Microsoft a few times declaring Windows as the "standard" for this, that, or the other thing and the deal includes big cash incentives for doing this. I have little doubt that this company has executives who know Microsoft is spending billions buying resellers of their rehash of a Windows phone OS and are just holding out for more money. They will most likely ship some WP7 phone eventually and get paid well for doing so. We'll see if they are smart enough to not tie the money to sales figures for the phone.

LoB

Re:smart executives holding out for more MS money

[Anonymous Coward]

Or they'll create their own unique, custom Mobile OS called Dinwods Sebben, which they made themselves, much like the Green Dam.

Other than paid reviewers,

[Anonymous Coward]

Who else has high regard for Windows Phone 7?
Nobody that I have seen.

Re:Other than paid reviewers,

[amiga3D]

I know they've sold some but I've never seen anyone use one. Lot's of droids, a few blackberries and iphones, but never seen a win7 phone in the wild. But then I use a motorola tracphone and love it. It's a great phone, lousy computer, shitty camera, bad mp3 player, but makes and receives calls so well that I can't bring myself to part with it.

Re:Other than paid reviewers,

[terjeber]

I would probably go so far as to say: Everybody who has used one. I switched from iPhone to WP7 for my primary mobile use simply because WP7 is a delight to use making the iPhone look like it was hacked together sometime in the mid 1980s.

Re:Other than paid reviewers,

[miffo.swe]

Astroturfers has a high regard for WP7, but else, not so much. Those 500 billions seems to have been spent mostly on paid shills because not much have gone into classical marketing like tv-ads or billboards etc.

Any serious review i have seen has at best come out as "meh." and a shrug. The phone starts, you can place a phonecall and you can install an app, but nothing about it is anything but a small "meh.".

I have a strong feeling they think that by brainwashing us that WP7 is good, that their widgets are anything but widgets and that their development tools are any better than Android and Apples we will start to believe it eventyally.

Personally i only get a bad taste of desperation in my mouth from this.

Re:Other than paid reviewers,

[miffo.swe]

I know people who have tried Wp7 for a month, got very bored and tired of it and switched back to something better. The only person i know of that uses a WP7 phone today shudders with the thought of such blasphemy as Linux. A total fanboy that makes all his decisions based on what Microsoft says or does.

Those people are not in an abundence in the world.

Re:Other than paid reviewers,

[zoltanse]

No Win7 phones in the wild: quite true. I'm travelling a lot on German high speed trains where most people spend their time handling some kind of mobile device. Lots of Apple stuff, Blackberries. Less Androids but still noticable.

But I have yet to spot one single WP7 phone. Odd somehow.

Re:Other than paid reviewers,

[terjeber]

Better, how? Be specific if you can.

Re:Other than paid reviewers,

[Kenshin]

"Those people are not in an abundence in the world."

Maybe not, but they've clustered fairly well into IT departments.

Re:Other than paid reviewers,

[carbonUnit42]

I went the opposite way. I had an old HTC Touch running Win Mobile 6, and I hated every minute of that phone. Issues that irked me? Touch screen doesn't shut off while on a call. One volume for the entire phone. So if I wanted to put my phone on vibrate, or silence mode so not to be awakened by a wrong number, the alarm clock wouldn't work because the alarm was tethered with the phones ringer volume. If I wanted to check my hotmail account, and the server was not responding for any reason, the cancel button on the phone was totally useless. Pressing it just meant, sure, I'll retry, over and over and over again. Had to pull the battery more than once to stop that endless loop. I've read on some reviews for the new Win7 phone that yes, it still only has the one volume control for the entire phone. I was so pissed with my old HTC that I went to an iPhone. I have the older iPhone 3GS and I love it. What I see as an issue for MS is that they're stuck in this corporate mentallity, and unless they start to fully understand the consumer's wants and needs, and not what corporate clients want in their products, then they will always be a follower. MS needs to get out of the mindset of trying to tether all their products together in everything they do. I don't need a phone that can talk to my XBox, (which I don't own), or sync with Outlook, (which I don't use) or MS Office, (Open Office user), Zune, (iPod user) and so on. Build a phone for corporate users who want those features, but build a true consumer friendly phone as well. Until MS actually starts to understand the consumer and their needs, they will always be behind the eight ball.

Re:Other than paid reviewers,

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, maybe he'll be more specific when you are. Or do your vague endorsements of non-specific advantages not have to stand up to the same scrutiny?

Re:Other than paid reviewers,

[terjeber]

Win Mobile 6

Yes, and I used to own an Apple II, which I hated, and have therefore completely rejected OS X as an OS. If they couldn't make it work on the II, why would I think the Macintosh 20 years later was any different. Please, keep your mouth closed until it stops spewing nonsense. Seriously dude, if you are using HTC and Win Mo to judge WP7 you are just dumb.

As for integration - what do you want to integrate with? Google and gmail? WP7 does that better than the iPhone, but not better than Android (huge surprise). Facebook (WP7 does that better than anyone)? Which consumer problems are you needing to fix?

Re:Other than paid reviewers,

[miffo.swe]

Those clustered in the IT departments have been badly burnt by Windows Mobile. A WP7 sale to one of them is harder than selling a refrigerator to an eskimo, they know they will be left for dead in a couple of years with backend systems and no hardware to connect them to.

Customisation

[high_rolla]

I wonder if this is a ploy to get MS to let them tweak the UI more?
My understanding is that MS has locked down UI tweaking by the manufacturers quite a bit. Nokia has been granted some concessions however.
This could just be their way of saying, "If you want us to make phones with your OS then try harder to make it worth our while."
Would be interesting if in a few months time we hear they have just done a "very nice deal" with MS.

Slow burn

[SpryGuy]

Honestly, I think WP7 is going to be a slow-burn. It started out way behind, but it's a decent mobile OS as far as it goes, with a lot of potential.

It's going to take a while to find traction. First, it has to "catch up" with what's already there (and that will take a while). There are also people who might be interested but who are already under contract with other phones (I fit in this category). I'm not even elegible to think about buying one for another year or so.

So there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem here, along with a late entry into a relatively saturated market. I think it's highly likely that they'll slowly grow over the next year or 18 months into third place, and likely stay there for several years... eating away at a slowly increasing share. I think the Nokia deal will seriously help this, but so will it's release this year on other networks (Verizon and T-Mobile and Sprint here in the States).

As long as Microsoft keeps the updates coming, and pushes updated hardware specs for a second generation that will keep pace with where iOS and Android are going, things will continue to improve.

Re:Slow burn

[Kevin Fishburne]

That's a good assessment, but it doesn't take into account the speed at which competing platforms may or may not continue to outpace it. In a car race, the car who's engine gets blown out right when the race starts is probably NEVER going to catch up. Of course, Microsoft could simply try to copy every advancement presented, which even in a best case scenario would leave them slightly behind.

Re:Slow burn

[Anthony Mouse]

It's going to take a while to find traction.

That's a problem. If you can't show strong sales out of the gate (which both iPhone and Android did) then after a few months, developers start to realize that there is no market for WP7 apps and they put their efforts for the platform on hold indefinitely. Then you have a platform lacking in users and applications, and the users are waiting on the apps while the app developers are waiting on the users.

Worse yet, the phone manufacturers do the same thing -- if few people are buying WP7 phones then it makes no sense to pour R&D money into producing many different models with new features etc., and on top of that the Nokia deal has already said to all other manufacturers that they're second class customers. I assume here that Microsoft hopes Nokia will produce first class WP7 hardware in order to offset this, but the hardware by itself isn't sufficient, and the other manufactuers' business logic is sound -- if you continue to dump your money into R&D for a platform that nobody is buying, you're ultimately going to sink your operation. Or to put it another way, WP7 better not be a "slow burn" or else Nokia is going to have to defect to Android or exit the market, and either outcome would put a pretty serious pall on Microsoft's platform.

Re:Slow burn

[miffo.swe]

The reason its a slow burn is that nobody wants it, and the fact that Microsoft just told the other OEMs to go screw them selves with a pinapple (because Microsoft loves Nokias!). And i dont think any OEM analyst will miss the parallels between an OS 100% controlled by Microsoft on the PC and the same on the phone.

If WP7 would gain much traction, any mobile OEM are Microsofts bitch, just like in the PC world today where HP, Lenovo or Dells only competition is about who can lower their own margins the most.

Re:Slow burn

[rust627]

Well I can only speak for myself and the people i talk with.
But ....
everyone i know who used earlier versions of Microsoft Phone systems, fro CE to windows Mobile of any flavour basically hated it.
Most could not wait to get rid of them, some even paid out their contracts early to get a (and I will quote their words) "get a phone that works".
Even the Phone salesmen I know, who were told by their bosses to use them to sell them in the shop, soon bought other phones (with their own money) to use when they were not at work.

With a customer satisfaction rating of Zero, you are starting on the back foot when it comes to marketing a new product.

Whether or not it is a better OS than previous ones is irrelevant, whether or not it is better than iphone or android is irrelevant in marketing terms.
Whether or not a potential customer will believe it is better than the earlier train wrecks is important, and although windows 7 is better than Vista, that is not really saying much, and for many people the promise of "Vista is better than everything before" is still in their memories.

Re:Slow burn

[cyber-vandal]

It's quite ironic that Microsoft find themselves in exactly the same position in the mobile space as their desktop OS competitors have been stuck in.

Re:Slow burn

[cbhacking]

T-Mobile? What are you talking about? T-Mobile US carries the HTC HD7 and Dell Venue Pro, both WP7 devices, and has since the US launch day. They don't sell the DVP in their own stores, true, but they certainly do sell the HD7.

They don't advertise as heavily as AT&T, but it's certainly not true that they're only releasing this year.

Re:Slow burn

[drinkypoo]

Honestly, I think WP7 is going to be a slow-burn. It started out way behind, but it's a decent mobile OS as far as it goes, with a lot of potential.

It's trying too hard to be an iPhone. Why would you buy it and then end up saying "I could have had all the same disadvantages with an iPhone and have it work, too"?

Re:Slow burn

[Lorien_the_first_one]

As Steve Ballmer is so fond of saying, "Developers, developers, developers!"

Re:Slow burn

[AmberBlackCat]

Am I the only one who thinks it's ridiculous that a company that primarily makes software has no apps for it's operating system? What's stopping Microsoft from making its own apps? In fact, if they behave like they've done in the past, as soon as somebody makes a killer app for the Windows Phone OS, Microsoft will make a ripoff version of it and kill the original.

Re:Slow burn

[chowdahhead]

I remember reading that Microsoft paid Nokia 1B USD to make wp7 the primary platform, but not the exclusive one. If this is true, Nokia can continue Meego and low end Symbian, and dabble in Android if necessary without breaking the deal they made. They might have to.

Re:Slow burn

[Anthony Mouse]

Getting a couple of apps isn't the problem. Heck, getting all the major apps isn't the problem. Look at Linux -- it's got plenty of good web browsers, email clients, music players, disc recording software, etc. The problem is that it doesn't have obscure business application #48,004,137, which you need to run your call accounting system from 1997. And for any given one of those apps, the large majority of people don't need it. However, for any given person, they often need one or more of those apps.

So it is with phones. Even if Microsoft makes all of the high volume software itself (and in doing so drives away third party developers... ), that doesn't help woo the guy with some obscure Android application he can't live without.

And, as Microsoft should well know, businesses have this effect in spades. Companies want to standardize on a single platform as much as possible. That means that if the IT director really likes the app that lets you run an ssh client on your phone, and the Accountants just love the one that lets you take pictures of barcodes on business equipment and enter them into a database, and the CEO can't live without some game about yacht racing, the decree soon comes down that the platform with all those obscure little apps is the one that everybody gets.

Re:Slow burn

[Voyager529]

It's going to take a while to find traction.

That's a problem. If you can't show strong sales out of the gate (which both iPhone and Android did)

The iPhone did...but it also had the benefit of having plenty of pre-announcement hype along with the installed base of iPods. The original iPhone could best be described as a touch screen feature phone with an iPod. It got all kinds of initial sales because of that fact. Note that the first year or so of its release, the 'apps' were all in the browser - over EDGE.

Android, on the other hand, had a very different road to the market. It took them nearly seven months to sell a million of HTC G1's. Android's more mainstream success took place when Verizon spent a cool billion advertising the Motorola Droid, billing it as an iPhone replacement, and targeted that ad campaign to people who had some iPhone lust but were too loyal to the Verizon network to jump to AT&T's ship, which by then had plenty of bad press of its own. For some time there, having a Droid had a decent amount of caché, and really raised sea level for Android handsets for Sprint and T-Mobile as well.

HTC and Samsung didn't sit on their laurels and watch Motorola beat them at their own game, either. All three companies have released handset after handset running the OS, on every carrier (including prepaids), and all have had plenty of carrier support (All three companies have been featured in various carrier adverts), so android's got the quantity aspect running for them.

My point is that the two platforms took very different roads to their respective success. But you're right in that Microsoft has to do better with their ecosystem to entice users. The Zune music/video store looks pretty good, but the iTunes lock-in is very similar to the Windows lock-in. Many of my friends have some pretty meticulously curated iTunes libraries, complete with ratings, playlists, categories, and all that other data that is, in many cases, just as valuable as the audio tracks themselves. Finally, long-time iPod touch/iPhone/Android owners likely have a few tens of dollars worth of apps that won't be compatible with the new system. What Microsoft could do here is to entice/coerce/subsidize developers that have cross-platform applications to provide free copies of paid apps on other platforms. Microsoft is playing this the way Apple did, trying to leverage users of one product (iTunes/iPod) to seamlessly migrate to their phone offering. Zune never achieved a sufficient critical mass to make Zune users their best early adopting crowd, Windows Mobile 6.5 veterans like myself would be quick to miss all the WM6.5 features we use frequently (Swype, Mass Storage, Remote Desktop, Desktop Outlook sync, apps purchased for *that* platform), and desktop Windows has no more leverage for WP7 than Android or iOS do, leaving them with Sharepoint (a business subset that's likely already locked into RIM) and Xbox, which is the closest they've got, but still an uphill battle to leverage if the teenage crowd is also iTunes locked in and the phones have a mandatory $30/month data plan that mom and dad likely won't want to pay and the teens themselves probably don't want to part with that much of their allowance to pay for.

The OS has potential. it CAN work if MS treats it as if they're breaking new ground and have nothing to leverage - but THAT is an attitude that they're a bit out of practice having.

Re:Slow burn

[Anthony Mouse]

Android, on the other hand, had a very different road to the market. It took them nearly seven months to sell a million of HTC G1's. Android's more mainstream success took place when Verizon spent a cool billion advertising the Motorola Droid, billing it as an iPhone replacement, and targeted that ad campaign to people who had some iPhone lust but were too loyal to the Verizon network to jump to AT&T's ship, which by then had plenty of bad press of its own.

The slow start is technically true, but it depends how you measure it. The G1 was almost like a developer or preview edition. It wasn't marketed in the same way that you would expect a general release to be, and Android 1.x wasn't really as polished as it could have been. The release of the Droid coincided with the release of Android 2.x, which was really the start of "Android" as we know it now.
The Verizon thing is very much true, but I don't think it helps the cause for Microsoft very much now that iPhone is on Verizon and Android is on everything. In order to achieve substantial market share, you not only have to be just as good at almost everything, you have to have some kind of hook to get people to be the first one to use an unpopular platform. The hook for iPhone is that it was substantially better than the phones it took market share from. The hook for Android is that it's also substantially better than the phones it took market share from, and it was available on all the carriers instead of just AT&T, and the phones are less expensive because the OS is free and there is strong intra-brand competition.
The problem for Microsoft is that right now Android and iOS are making gains at the expense of Microsoft and especially at the expense of Blackberry. If WP7 had been successful from the start, they would be one of the ones usurping Blackberry's market share instead of leaving it on the table for Apple and Google. Having lost that opportunity is fairly serious because they somehow need a critical mass of users, and gaining those users is much easier when they come at the expense of a declining platform that existing users are considering alternatives to rather than trying to convert satisfied customers of thriving products like Android and iPhone. Especially as a result of the openness and cost advantages of Android and the loyalty of Apple customers. If Microsoft doesn't get on the stick before Blackberry falls out of the running it will be far more difficult for them to get anywhere with this platform -- they end up competing with a new baseline, because they have to be better than Android and iPhone instead of just being better than Blackberry.

The OS has potential. it CAN work if MS treats it as if they're breaking new ground and have nothing to leverage - but THAT is an attitude that they're a bit out of practice having.

I don't know. I mean you can never count out a company sitting on a mountain of cash. But it all sounds a lot like what people have been saying forever about Linux on the Desktop -- more people use it than they used to (but still less than 10% total), it's almost ready, etc. Well, maybe, but not this year, and next year doesn't look very good either. And that's with Linux (not to mention Android) have the advantage of being "free as in beer" which WP7 doesn't.

Re:Slow burn

[Anonymous Coward]

Third place from fifth? I don't normally try to prognosticate about what others are doing, but last time I looked, out of a field of 5 phone systems, Microsoft was in fifth place (dead last), and while the first four were all growing (Android was in first place, and had more market share , and more market share growth than the next three combined, and the only one losing market share was Windows Phone7. When looking at those numbers, and the direction, if I were an investment banker, my advice would be to sell (sell aggressive), Phone7, and "buy aggressive, Android". The slow burn you talk about is fizzle before things flicker out. MS can spend gobs of money trying to buy developers and carriers, and handset makers, but if noone wants to buy it or use it, they won't sell any, and the carriers won't want to support it. Hey Zune! Take windows phone 7 with you! Pack it to where bob and clippy have been hanging out. Repeat after me: "Hanging up on Phone7".

Re:Slow burn

[the_B0fh]

I don't know about Linux on the desktop, but the original saying was UNIX on the desktop, and guess what, there's 100mil iphones, god knows how many droids, 15+mil ipads, some webOS, etc etc out there.

And Apple is the biggest UNIX vendor in the world.

Isn't things strange...?

Re:Slow burn

[Anthony Mouse]

I don't know if mobiles and desktops are that fungible. By that logic Windows Phone 7 is a success because Windows 7 is on millions of desktops.

And OS X "succeeded" because it was both Mac and UNIX, and it took the market share Mac always had. Which is still only like 10% of the market.

Story icon?

[DNS-and-BIND]

I know this is a story about mobile phones, but why's that guy have such a comically oversized bluetooth headset? Stupid slashdot icons.

Re:Story icon?

[Anthony Mouse]

I know this is a story about mobile phones, but why's that guy have such a comically oversized bluetooth headset? Stupid slashdot icons.

I think that's supposed to be Bill Gates demonstrating a development version of WP8.

Re:Story icon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Resistance is futile.

Re:Story icon?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the one they always have for anything to do with Microsoft. I think it's meant to be Bill Gates as a cyborg.

Re:Story icon?

[Anonymous Coward]

I took it as some Bill Gates Borg thing? hmmm maybe not...

Alternative...

[sodafox]

A good alternative for them is Android, which is (as far as I know) more open, less expensive and more popular. They're a business, so why would they choose a closed, more costly and less popular mobile OS?

Re:Alternative...

[amiga3D]

Because it's backed by MS and everyone likes to kiss some Microsoft butt in hopes of making big money. It's probably just a negotiation ploy to get Redmond to sweeten the deal for them. They know that MS is going to have to open the wallet and spend big to get back in the mobile game against the droids, berries, and iphones.

Re:Alternative...

[Anonymous Coward]

Zte has a decent and even cheap android smartphone lookup zte blade/skate. It costs half the money that htc/ samsung/ lg asks and has a lot of bells and whistles. Capacitive screen, gps, 512mb ram,... . In some European countries it is very popular device.

Re:Alternative...

[gbjbaanb]

you mean "dear Microsoft, we saw that you gave Nokia $1 billion to develop your phones for you, so we'd like that too. Cheque would be fine, thanks."

In other words

[postmortem]

They have more business sense than Nokia.

One could think of this move as less competition for Nokia... right? Except Nokia has to be worried by now "sh** we picked a big stinky turd and nobody else want piece of it"

Re:In other words

[satuon]

Or in other words, their new CEO isn't an ex-microsoftie.

Well-regarded?

[Shag]

Not to be obtuse, but where exactly is WP7 "well-regarded" beyond, say, WP7 commercials? I read a lot of reviews when it came out, and the most favorable ones seemed to view it as a passable mobile OS but short of features it'd need to really compete with the others. Saying "meh" or calling something mediocre doesn't strike me as regarding it well.

Re:Well-regarded?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the first place I've heard anything good about WP7, aside from MS ads or propaganda.

WP7 is MS phone's "Vista." They should skip it altogether until they come out with a better product...OR...they should abandon the cellphone market entirely.

Re:Well-regarded?

[melted]

Try it. UX wise it's easily on par with iOS and it's far better than android. Simply put, it's a well done, cohesive whole. It doesn't suck.

Re:Well-regarded?

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried it. Can't say I'm overly impressed. Yes the UI looks nice, but I wouldn't call it really well engineered. The aesthetics are nice because it's simple and every screen has only very few things on it. That's fine for a demo phone and makes a good first impression, but I do a million and one things with my iPhone, and can just be way more efficient putting more information on each screen.

Also the animations are way too extravagant. Instead of simple, smooth transitions, the weird page flipping gives the impression that you are waiting for the animation to complete. That may not be the case if it is loading the app concurrently, but that's certainly the impression.

Re:Well-regarded?

[miffo.swe]

The UI in WP7 sucks unless your tastebuds are in direct control from the Borg directive. Its utterly boring, notification sucks very bad compared to Android and nobody believes that hubs are anything but damn widgets just because Microsofts says so. They are just exceptionally unflexible widgets, not better than anything else.

meh.

Re:Well-regarded?

[Daniel Phillips]

The interface looks seriously goofy. What is it, 8 bit square two thumbs sized buttons on the whole screen? Ugly at best.

Re:Well-regarded?

[TAZ6416]

I've had an Samsung Omnia 7 since mid-November on 3, I'm delighted with the phone, I was one of the original UK guys who queued for an iPhone on launch, then went to a iPhone 3G, I just fancied a change and it was cheaper to get the Omnia 7 than an iPhone 4 & I have no regrets. And the Zune software I feel is far better than buggy iTunes. I tried a few Android phones as well, did like them but I felt the Windows 7 Phone's Metro was easier to navigate around. Saying that, I'll give andriod another go when my contact is up next November to see if it's got better. Saying that, the wife's Palm Pre's OS is fantastic as well, but stuck with flimsy and outdated hardware in my opinion. Web OS running on the Omnia 7's form factor with the AMOLED screen would be pretty cool.

Re:Well-regarded?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it does suck. Text always scrolling off the right side of the screen, slow response GUI, terrible client software, no apps, crashes a lot, lacks things like cut and paste, etc... Microsoft should throw in the towel like they did with the equally poor Zune and focus on writing apps for IOS and Android...real OSes that work and people want, no yet another overpriced cloner OS.

Re:Well-regarded?

[cbhacking]

Customer Satisfaction results seemed to be very positive. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-26/microsoft-says-it-shipped-2-million-windows-phones-last-quarter.html Details are still a little sketchy, but as of January it seems to be "well-regarded" by most users.

Re:Well-regarded?

[miffo.swe]

Internal numbers for customer satisfaction from Microsoft itself as the phone dogs on the market perhaps arent the most reliable source of information avaliable? Other sources has reported abysmal customer satisfaction, and sales are still down the drain.

Re:Well-regarded?

[melted]

That's exactly what I thought until I tried it (a friend of mine has one). It can't be fully appreciated from screenshots. You have to try it to understand. I'm seriously thinking of upgrading from my iPhone to a WP7 phone when dual core models come out.

Re:Well-regarded?

[BonThomme]

I think you just wrote their next marketing campaign: "It doesn't suck"

Re:Well-regarded?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your mom's got a well-done, cohesive hole. Fucking "Windows Phone 7" has killed software updates for my N900, and for that alone, never mind the painful, not to mention short, future of suck-phones Nokia are now contractualy-bound to make, I will hate M$ forever.

1000 workers walked out on the day after that M$/Nokia deal was announced. What does that tell you about what those at the pointy end of making mobile phones *actually think* about M$?

Also, go fuck yourself.

Re:Well-regarded?

[Daniel Phillips]

That's exactly what I thought until I tried it (a friend of mine has one). It can't be fully appreciated from screenshots.

I'd be embarrassed to pull a phone out of my pocket and have it look like that.

Re:Well-regarded?

[Atroxodisse]

I read a lot of positive reviews when it came out, which is why I bought one and they turned out to be right on. Does it have room for improvement? Certainly. But I'm really enjoying the phone so far and as far as the basic UI goes it is easier to use and more responsive than any Android or iPhone that I've used.

Re:Well-regarded?

[kirkb]

"upgrading"? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Re:Well-regarded?

[Shag]

It stands to reason that it should be well-regarded by the people who liked what they saw enough to buy one and become users.

If those users are, though, a tiny sliver of the market as a whole, it's hard to call it well-regarded in the broader sense.

Why Microsoft new products keep failing.

[goruka]

I thinks it's pretty simple if you think about it. Consumers all around the world don't see Microsoft as a true innovator in the technology business. What does this mean? It means that people does not see Microsoft products as "must-have" because of innovation, features or overall coolness.
Microsoft products become "must-have" only when they become the only platform available to run something the consumer wants.
Windows (Windows applications), Office (Office documments) and X-Box (X-Box games) are the main successful Microsoft products and all three follow this lock-in scenario.
Any other products, platforms or services they created (that don't depend on external content or software) were soon taken over by superior alternatives.

Re:Why Microsoft new products keep failing.

[oliverthered]

windows never really came with much.. it was like a none thing that you use to run other things, that just need this none thing to work.

Re:Why Microsoft new products keep failing.

[bazorg]

Windows (Windows applications), Office (Office documments) and X-Box (X-Box games) are the main successful Microsoft products and all three follow this lock-in scenario.

I suspect that if you went back in time before Xbox360 you might find yourself saying the same things about how Xbox would never gain traction, MS is not a go-to company for savvy customers wanting cool and good stuff, etc.
Today, Xbox is a serious player in their field and probably will remain so for the next generations of consoles and other entertainment.

I easily see the same thing happening with WP7, especially when Nokia starts pushing their new products with MSWindows. Slashdot readers may be really clever, but the markets involve a lot more people than just Slashdot readers. Microsoft and Nokia are established brands of enormous value and for that reason what these companies say has a good chance to stand. It's great that every now and then there are companies building a product from 0% share to 10% in a couple of years, but seriously people should know that this is not the way it is for many other products.

Re:Why Microsoft new products keep failing.

[BasilBrush]

Slashdot readers may be really clever, but the markets involve a lot more people than just Slashdot readers.... Microsoft and Nokia are established brands of enormous value and for that reason what these companies say has a good chance to stand.

They are both fading stars. Neither has anywhere near the brand value of Apple. And then Android has the advantage of being on many manufacturer's phones, many of them inexpensive.

Hard to see right now how the Microsoft and Nokia joint venture can seriously compete.

Re:Why Microsoft new products keep failing.

[bazorg]

Your guess is as good as mine. Let's look at this again in 3 years.

Re:Why Microsoft new products keep failing.

[BasilBrush]

P.S. the Xbox success was more of a failure on Sony's part than Microsoft winning on their own merits.

Nintendo concentrate on young children and family entertainment. Which meant Microsoft was competing with Sony for the older and more serious gamers. PSII vs Xbox was a clear win for PSII. But Sony screwed up with PS3 by making it too expensive to manufacture, thus meaning its retail price was too high compared to Xbox 360. Xbox 360 had the reasonably priced mature gamers console market to itself for a long time.

It's hard to see a similar gap opening up in the smartphone market. At one time Microsoft had the enterprise smartphone market sewn up. But by obsoleting all the Windows Mobile 6.5 and earlier enterprise solutions, MS has lost credibility in that market.

Re:Why Microsoft new products keep failing.

[drinkypoo]

P.S. the Xbox success was more of a failure on Sony's part than Microsoft winning on their own merits.

That's a bunch of crap. I bought both PS2 and Xbox and the Xbox had better games... IMNSHO. I didn't buy PS3 because by that point it was clear that Sony is the Green Day of electronics companies; buy our stuff, come to worship us, and we will spit on you. I do have a 360. Probably next generation I will only buy Nintendo; I had more trouble finding games I wanted in this generation than any previous generation. Wii Bowling is the best video game ever. I said it.

Re:Why Microsoft new products keep failing.

[BasilBrush]

That's a bunch of crap. I bought both PS2 and Xbox and the Xbox had better games... IMNSHO

It's irrelevant how much you think about your own opinion. PS2 slaughtered Xbox in the market. 150 million PS2s versus 25 million Xboxes. Best selling game? GTA San Andreas on the PS2: 17 million vs Halo 2 on the Xbox: 3 million.

PS2 was clearly far more popular with people than the Xbox. It was Sony's market to lose when the next generation came along. And they lost it for the reasons I stated.

Re:Why Microsoft new products keep failing.

[drinkypoo]

PS2 was clearly far more popular with people than the Xbox. It was Sony's market to lose when the next generation came along. And they lost it for the reasons I stated.

Sony was clearly far more popular with people than Microsoft. They backed Sony because they thought it was a better long-term bet. They found out throughout that generation that it was not, but it was too late by the time they had found out, as they had already bought PS2s. When the PS3 came out and Sony said it was probably not expensive enough, they knew that they had gone bugshit insane over there at Sony Entertainment and so only the truly brainwashed bought a PS3. Some thought it would provide superior gaming as the PS2 didn't (where any effort was spent on both ports the Xbox port tends to have superior graphics and otherwise be basically identical) and some thought it would provide a useful Linux as the PS2 didn't and both were wrong.

To be fair, it still sucks to have to pay for multiplayer gaming. I mean, that's just lame. I'm not paying and I never will. Next generation I'll probably only buy Nintendo. I have a Wii with MotionPlus and if there were more titles it would be the best thing ever. If they can bump to at least two cores of each the same power as what the Wii has now, kick the GPU up to where they can do at least similar graphics but in HD, and take no more action against homebrew than they do now, I'll be on board.

Re:Why Microsoft new products keep failing.

[blivit42]

Any other products, platforms or services they created (that don't depend on external content or software) were soon taken over by superior alternatives.

Mice. Microsoft has always (I'm thinking all the way back to my first IBM compatible in 1993) made very good mice. Especially ergonomic mice. While not a gaming mouse, my Microsoft Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000 is the most comfortable mouse for office use that I have ever used, and has one Hell of a good battery life. In the early days of laser gaming mice, I bought one that had higher precision and better response times than the then-current Logitech offerings. Logitech makes fine mice now too (I currently have a very comfortable MX500 gaming mouse at home), but it seems like historically they tended to lag a little bit behind Microsoft.

Microsoft mice are just about the only product they make that I have always had a positive opinion of, and still do. Their keyboards generally aren't too bad (damn Windows keys, give me back my 101 !!), but it's still mice I think of when it comes to a product I can respect out of Microsoft. I love to bash Microsoft as much as the next guy here, but I have to give them credit for their mice.

To fragment or not to fragment.

[Elimental]

The problem with WM7 for manufacturers is that with the fear of fragmentation Microsoft went ahead and :
1 Dictated the hardware, so as manufacturer don't have much say on how the device going to look, no small screen with dedicated keyboard or such designs, so in essence no real distinction between one manufacturer’s phone to another. This would not be a problem if it was not for the second point.
2 Manufacturers are not allowed to change the UI to place there own “look & feel” to the phone. So end of the day one WM7 phone is exactly like the other.

We all know a HTC (Android), Apple (iOS), or Motorola (Android) phone just by looking at it. But all the WM7 phones look and feel the same. For some people that is selling point but for a manufacturer it not. How can you make someone buy your WM7 phone and not your competitions.

I do think that ZTE will sell WM7 phones they just want a cash incentive to do so.

Personally I don't like the WM7 blocky interface or the half words that break to show that there is a next screen, and I do think Microsoft did a bad thing aiming something that you cant really customize to gamers 1st (Xbox Live). They should have targeted a market that hates customization – the work place, in other words they should have build better Office/ Exhange/ Sharepoint integration instead, cause that is where they can seriously 1 up the competition.

Re:To fragment or not to fragment.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Manufacturers are not allowed to change the

There is worse. All manufacturers must make WP7 phones almost identical (they can have more than the mandated minimum config) EXCEPT (allegedly) Nokia who can make a different UI and possibly some hardware differences.

I think that most manufacturers will dump WP7 and leave the whole 4% market share of WP7 to Nokia.

Re:To fragment or not to fragment.

[Missing.Matter]

There are exactly 8 requirements phones must meet to run WP7:

• Capacitive, 4-point multi-touch screen with WVGA (480x800) resolution
• 1 GHz ARM v7 "Cortex/Scorpion" or better processor
• DirectX9 rendering-capable GPU
• 256 MB of RAM with at least 8 GB of Flash memory
• Accelerometer with compass, ambient light sensor, proximity sensor and Assisted GPS
• 5-megapixel camera with an LED flash
• FM radio tuner
• 7 dedicated hardware buttons - back, Start, search, 2-stage camera, power/sleep and Volume Up and Down.

• Manufactuers are free to add dedicated keyboards, larger screens, faster processors, more memory, better screen tech, different colors, more buttons, better cameras, different materials, etc. The real limitation imposed on manufacturers is that they can't create a cheap phone which can't handle the OS, which they seem to love to do with Android phones.

  And as far as UI customization, the manufacturers might not appreciate that, but I sure do. I'd prefer to keep the default UI. And manufacturers are free to add their own hub if they so choose.

Re:To fragment or not to fragment.

[shutdown -p now]

I believe higher-res screens aren't allowed yet, though (i.e. no 960x640 such as we see on some Android phones now).

disappointed

[DuboisP]

I purchased 4 HTC 7 Mozart for my users and I'm repenting of. unusable for corporate - no access to the Exchange global adress list (corporate directory) - no sync of tasks and notes - no memory slot - cannot use Active Sync or Mobile Center, but you have to install Zune so disappointed i didn't search for free apps

Microsoft is the Bismark

[Anonymous Coward]

Stuck rudder, too big and ungainly to change direction, her enemies have caught up with her. Apple is bombing her from above while open source torpedoes her from below. And all the while her massive weapons are useless, as she is unable to bring them to bear. She'll stay afloat longer than most believe possible, but her fate is inescapable.

WP7

[linguae]

For a moment I thought the article was discussing WordPerfect 7.

Re:WP7

[mortonda]

Me too. What does a phone maker need word perfect for?

Re:WP7

[Chris Mattern]

Same here as well. Not what does a phone maker need WordPerfect for, what does he need with a 15-year-old version of it?

Well regarded??

[miffo.swe]

I dont know where this comes from except a couple of known fanboys and paid bloggers. Amongst normal people and people in the mobile industry, WP7 is anything but well regarded. Its just a huge big "meh..." and thats it. An also ran without anything even remotely interesting, but at the same time lacking many things we take for granted in a mobile phone.

With WP7 i cant friggin set different volumes, on a smartphone! Multitasking only avaliable if my lips are up against Microsofts bottom. No copy/paste, WP7 wont connect to WPA2-P2K wifi. You cant create playlists on the phone 7 and there are tons of other issues that would make well regarded sounding pretty forced or an outright lie.

WP7 is only well regarded amongst a small group of hardcore ms followers. But, i know many who works 100% with only MS products that really hates it with a passion because they poured oodles of money into Winmo 6.5 projects that are now down the drain and they will never make the same mistake again.

THE REAL SCOOP ON WINPHONE 7 SERIES FAIL !!

[Anonymous Coward]

â--¦Capacitive, 4-point multi-touch screen with WVGA (480x800) resolution

However, no way to get more than 1 point using standard framework (silverlight)

â--¦1 GHz ARM v7 "Cortex/Scorpion" or better processor

No native code so compiler optimized/programmer-tightened assembly, is not available; not possible to do any cpu-critical coding - at all

â--¦DirectX9 rendering-capable GPU

Within constraints, like 2000x2000 max pixel area; poorly if at all documented are these thing since so little "good stuff" is documented, likely because these are absent

â--¦256 MB of RAM with at least 8 GB of Flash memory

Max any app can use is 90 MB; go over an app fails to get into marketplace - meaning no way to ever load it on any device except your own -- everything MUST BE GOTTEN FROM MARKET PLACE

â--¦Accelerometer with compass, ambient light sensor, proximity sensor and Assisted GPS

Fine, but no access to compass, nor light sensor, nor prox sensor

â--¦5-megapixel camera with an LED flash

That's not saying much - no access to the flash, either

â--¦FM radio tuner

God am I glad, I think - but needs a special headphone cable else no radio for you

â--¦7 dedicated hardware buttons - back, Start, search, 2-stage camera, power/sleep and Volume Up and Down

And the only accessible button is the back button; the others are dedicated (to MS apps)

All in all, a fine system if you like your freedom dictated by the like of Hitler, Stalin, or Republicans

Re:THE REAL SCOOP ON WINPHONE 7 SERIES FAIL !!

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought that one of the problems is that there is some overlap in Android and iOS development, such that porting an application from one platform to the other is much easier than simultaneously supporting WP7.

"dropped like a hot potato"

[Kupfernigk]

Meego development continues, and I'm waiting to see whether I want to replace mine or whether the production Meego will meet my needs. But if I do replace it, it will probably be with the new WebOs phone/tablet ecosystem.

Eheh

[SmallFurryCreature]

You are aware that the techies don't see ads on the internet, don't watch ad blocks on the tv and have an mp3 player in their car?

Who exactly are they advertising to? The late late late adopters?

The problem is also from my own experiences is that people who are at the lower end of the market tend to have bad windows experiences. They don't have a choice for their desktop OS but are hardly going to want their phone to be as malware riddled as their desktops.

MS just doesn't have a rep.

The biggest problem with WP7...

[wertigon]

Is that it has all the vendor lock in of Apple (Closed Source, one App store) with all the (hardware) fragmentation of Android. Atleast Android and iOS has one of two bad things; WP7 has both.

Re:The biggest problem with WP7...

[shutdown -p now]

There's no hardware fragmentation on WP7 to speak of - the baseline is very strictly defined (CPU, RAM, screen size etc).

The problem with WP7 is that it's more locked in than Apple, but (as of now) with fewer features and fewer apps. With iPhone, you trade freedom to do what you want with your phone with the largest app selection on the market. On WP7 you trade it for... what?

Re:The biggest problem with WP7...

[wertigon]

The baseline is rather strict, yes, BUT, not half as strict as Apple. Hardware fragmentation will occur, same as the PC market and/or netbook markets. The most glaring example here is Intel vs ARM-based phones, though others may also apply...

Re:The biggest problem with WP7...

[shutdown -p now]

The most glaring example here is Intel vs ARM-based phones

I think you're confusing Windows Mobile (6.x and below) and Windows Phone (7 and above). The latter mandates ARM, 1GHz min.

WP7 hardware uniformity is in fact more strict than Apple if you consider iPhone 3G/3GS/4 (so far at least). Heck, iPhones have different screen sizes!

Re:The biggest problem with WP7...

[wertigon]

Well, looks like I was wrong there. Thought I had read somewhere that WP7 supported Intel CPUs. Oh well.

Still, hardware fragmentation will occur. It *always* does when there is more than one manufacturer involved. Atleast with iPhone there will only be one model, maybe two or three at worst that you have to adapt to. It's managable and they mostly don't differ at all in terms of software. With WP7, no such guarantees.

MS doesn't need low quality makers

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a reason MS "hasn't done enough" - ZTE is a low quality chinese brand that would only hurt MS, so no wonder MS isn't really eager to have them on board (probably they didn't get the bribe they were asking). With Nokia guaranteed for an initial heavy investment in the platform, I'm glad that brands like ZTE aren't tarnishing the platform further, since WP7 is a pretty solid phone OS.

Re:MS doesn't need low quality makers

[miffo.swe]

Bullshit, ZTE Blade is a very good phone and with more than decent quality. The thing is, it has a price no smartphone comes near, and not many "dumb phones" like nokias lower range either. ZTE is after low prices and low margins but they do not seem to disregard quality, making them an extremely hard competitor to target.

Nokia wont survive WP7 and the rest, ZTE and other "tarnishing brands" will take over.

"No plans" != "Turns Down"

[kervin]

The original WSJ article attributes this quote directly to ZTE...

“We have active R&D plans on the whole Windows Phone 7 platform product. Whether we expedite that process will be driven by the market demand.”

Like most vendors ZTE will wait and see how much traction Microsoft gets before committing. In fact that they even have prototypes of in the lab is probably good news for Microsoft ( who themselves are keeping the hardware partner list short ).

Oh and also WP7 doesn't have native Asian language input support ( display works fine ) until Microsoft Mango release slated for later this year. So I don't see them doing much in Asian markets before then.

WP7 bricks your phone

[Anonymous Coward]

> ... That's bad news for Microsoft for its well-regarded but not well-received mobile OS

Looks like the Microsoft FUD machine has force fed somebody the cool aid.

For a different point of view, see this:

> let’s take a look first at how astonishingly Microsoft just screwed the pooch.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2987

see also:
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2011/02/everything-that-can-go-wrong-with-windows-phone-7-update-does.ars

IOW ... WP7 bricks your phone

How many years was it

[Toreo asesino]

...until Android became a serious competitor to the iPhone?

Looks like a borg

[Anonymous Coward]

Minds connected by mobile phones

thephoneshow review slammed it

[Anonymous Coward]

http://stevelitchfield.com/sshow/index.html

He was definitely very unimpressed. I hope Nokia know what they're doing!

When all else fails, indirection!

[abulafia]

How long until we get VMs for our phones?

Re:When all else fails, indirection!

[daboochmeister]

A few months ago. VMWare's solution for mobile.

Re:When all else fails, indirection!

[abulafia]

Aw, you got me excited. That isn't what I want, and I think you are aware of that. Wake me when I can run 2.2 in a vm under 2.2.

I did

[Atroxodisse]

I never used a Windows phone in the past. My daughter had one and it was terrible but the Windows Phone 7 looked really appealing and it turned out to be a great buy. I bought the Samsung Focus so I can't speak to the other phones but as far as the quality of the user experience it's better than iPhone and Android. The UI is extremely responsive and very easy to use. Obviously the market place isn't as big as Android or iPhone but it's getting there. There are some really great games that rival PC games for enjoyability. My only big complaints is there's no way to upload videos directly to facebook and there's no goodlink or EMM support yet.

Re:I did

[jrumney]

...it turned out to be a great buy. I bought the Samsung Focus so I can't speak to the other phones...

I can't imagine what sort of person would consider a phone that can't speak to other phones to be a "great buy". But if that is the market Microsoft have chosen, then good luck to them.

Re:I did

[Atroxodisse]

Please tell me that was sarcasm.

Version 3

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought MS was supposed to get it right with version 3... But they're already up to 7, isn't it time to give it up like they're doing with Zune?

No tablet

[Anonymous Coward]

> (480x800) resolution

Another failure of WP7.

With iOS, Android or WebOS I can get a phone and/or a tablet that could run the same apps. Perhaps even an all-in-one desktop or a TV.

WP7 is phone only, MS said it will be W8 for (ARM) tablets, W7 is for desktops, app continuity is fail.

WP7 won't even run WM6.x apps.

Of course MS has a rep

[Colin Smith]

MS just doesn't have a rep.

MS does have a rep. My mother in law curses Windows when she uses it. I'm sure she's going to be delighted with it on a mobile phone.
 

Re:Of course MS has a rep

[SpryGuy]

Get her to update from XP to Win7 and she'll curse less.

Favor one, disenfranchise others

[daboochmeister]

Been waiting for this. Wouldn't be surprised to see it become an avalanche. You pay $1B to one manufacturer to incentivize them to make WP7 phones, and don't think it will make others feel disenfranchised?

Mark me troll if you want, if you think businesses are above reacting based on such sentiments, you've been blessed with working in some very unique environments.

Who is it that regards . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

That's bad news for Microsoft for its well-regarded but not well-received mobile OS."

Who is it that regards the Microsoft OS so well that does not work for MS or receive money from MS in some form?

Would that be, um, nobody?

Nice trick in the headline

[sumdumass]

I saw the headline and wondered what in the hell a Chinese phone maker would be doing with word perfect 7 and why it would be news for nerds or stuff that matter. Perhaps they were bringing back envoy, sidekicks or something for advanced functionality. I was excited to see old things made new again and run on hardware about the same power as the original.

Turns out, it's nothing to do with the aging and outdated WP7 at all. It is all about some Microsoft windows creation for phones. Well, seeing how I do not care about windows phone 7, I purpose that before we start reusing abbreviations for products that were available in our life time to mean other products, we stop and thinks is mpw7 or something else might be more efficient in it's understanding. I mean I could start calling everything a DOS or whatever too, but I know it would only confuse people.

Long March WP

[Anonymous Coward]

We at ZTS have committed to creating a similar ( copied ) OS called the Long March.

Well regarded by whom?

[JoeMoyle]

Well regarded by whom outside of MS? I bought one and returned it within a week. No way to connect to secure wifi, no way to load programs outside of MS app store, no way to load a cert. in order to be able to connect to company email, etc. It is really only for people who want facebook and xbox games on their phone. For me it was a real disapointment.

well regarded?!

[the_B0fh]

my company is one of the biggest fans of microsoft - we go microsoft everything, and even the director and VP of IT says WP7 sucks. How the hell is WP7 "well regarded"?????

Re: WordPerfect

[vandamme]

My wife loves it, but I can't get it to install under WINE on our new 'puter.

Am I the only one..

[Pottsynz]

Who is perplexed of the success of Android despite the huge fragmentation issue? Case in point - a particular QVGA sold like hot cakes here in NZ...does it run Angry Birds? Nope. Doodle Jump? Nope. Web browsing? If you're really desperate I guess. I see a lot of developers/users like myself getting sick of a million different phones (I've seen developers with a desk full of androids, with a single Iphone 4 at the side!). MS may be late to the game, but they're running the right play.

Dandruff = Flaky

[zooblethorpe]

"head and shoulders over the iPhone"

Does this means WP7 is like iOS, but with dandruff?!

Dandruff = flaky, so yes.

Cheers,