Electromagnetic Automobile Suspension Demonstrated

cylonlover writes "Last December at the Future of Electric Vehicles conference in San Jose, a representative from The Netherlands' Eindhoven University of Technology presented research that his institution had been doing into a novel type of electromagnetic vehicle suspension. Now that a test car equipped with the suspension is about to appear at the AutoRAI exhibition in Amsterdam, the university has released some more details about the technology. For starters, it is not only electromagnetic but also active, meaning that it doesn't just mechanically respond to bumps in the road, but is controlled by an onboard computer. It is claimed to improve the overall ride quality of cars by 60 percent." That seems an awfully exact figure — I'm not sure any two people would ever agree even about the exact same car's "overall ride quality."

Comments

Supercars

[SimonTheSoundMan]

Don't we already have technology like this in many supercars or GTs? Ferrari 599 comes to mind.

Re:Supercars

[Tx]

Even cars such as my VW Scirocco GT have similar systems (VW calls it Adaptive Chassis Control), it's not the preserve of supercars anymore. However according to the article, existing systems use hydraulic actuators, this system is apparently electromagnetic only, reacts faster and uses less power. Yes, I know, it's almost cheating to RTFA.

Re:Supercars

[flyneye]

Either way, it's just more bullshit to break down.
More and new features= more opportunities to break down and high cost of not yet heavily mass produced parts.
Simplify the car and they will come...

Re:Supercars

[subreality]

Negative. This is not that system. There are a number of cars that let you adjust the shock absorbers on the fly: at the entry level, this involves servos adjusting the shock valving; at the high end (such as the F599) they use electromagnets to adjust the viscosity of the fluid in the shocks, which can be done much faster.

This system is altogether different: there is no shock absorber. They have a linear motor in its place. This gives advanced capabilities that adjustable shocks cannot.

For instance, say you turn hard left. The car wants to lean right. Soft springs are good for comfort, but allow the car to tilt more. This system lets you use soft springs, and then actively counter the body roll by pushing on one side and pulling on the other. The net result is you have the best of both worlds: the smooth ride of a luxury car's soft springs combined with the fast response and stiff anti-roll characteristics of a sports car.

You need a very strong linear actuator to make a meaningful improvement, but those are expensive and require a hefty electrical system to power them, further increasing the price. Bose did some fantastic demos of these some years back, but I don't think they managed to get any manufacturers interested, probably due to cost. Hopefully these guys have improved in that regard.

Re:Supercars

[Gordonjcp]

The Citroen Xantia Activa used a pair of hydraulic rams to counteract roll forces, as well as the four hydraulic rams that comprise the normal suspension. Apparently they maintain grip to 0.98G lateral force - they certainly can be flung round tight corners much faster than anything with those obsolete old sofa springs at the corners.

Re:Supercars

[Bengie]

I saw an electromagnetic suspension demo'd on the Discovery Channel before many many years ago. It was computer controlled and polled the system thousands of timers per second to look for crests or troughs.

How it faired over a pothole was quite cool as the car stayed level and barely moved, but what really got me in the demo was how it handled a curb. The driver went about 25mph strait into a curb and as the wheels hit the curb, the shocks sensed it and literally pulled the wheels up into the wheel wells and the car "floated" up-and-over the curb. It was awesome. Not only that, but it also reacted to sharp turns and the car stayed nearly perfectly level no matter how you tried to turn it.

They claimed about 50% of the power required to operate all four shocks/struts came from power regeneration from riding over bumps. They also claimed it was something like $5000 to install into a regular size car.

What ever happened to it?.. No clue. They had a working demo on TV and it seemed flawless, but who know about reliability or if it needed a huge load on the alternator or something.

Re:Supercars

[EraserMouseMan]

Aren't we all supposed to be talking about whether the marketing people should have claimed "60%" improvement in comfort?

Re:Supercars

[twistedsymphony]

More features to break down? Guess what... that ship has already sailed. "simple mechanicals" hasn't been a common feature in the automotive marketplace for nearly 3 decades.

Honestly I see this playing out just like any other automotive technology. A few cars will use it, it will be clumsy and unreliable, the manufacturers will learn from from their mistakes and improve on it year after year making it more robust. Within a decade or two it becomes the superior choice to the old system in nearly every aspect, at which point nearly every car on the market uses it, and no one but a small group of older gear-heads will care.

Re:Supercars

[sarhjinian]

Not true. As cars have gotten more complex, they've also gotten more reliable because electronics allow greater precision and control. Problems per mile has been going down for the entire industry, and the most complex cars (hybrids) are among the most reliable.

Remember carburetors? Mechanical throttle cables? Tune-ups every 3K? Automotive electronics before body computers?

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

Mechanical throttle cables?

Yeah, I remember them. When you tap the accelerator, the engine revs in time, with no delay due to slow actuators on the low-mid range end of the market. Our Toyota Matrix pisses me off with this delay. How someone designed this and deemed it acceptable, I do not know.

Friends tell me that their cars (higher end cars) do not have a delay, but without trying it for myself, I can only give them the benefit of the doubt. Give me a throttle cable ANY DAY.

Oh and on topic. Didn't Bose (yes, the speaker people) already do this before?

Tom...

Re:Supercars

[name_already_taken]

Actually the electronic throttles are more reliable than cables. Cables have been known to snap, or have the ends come off (which is basically the same thing.)

As to responsiveness, you probably should have bought a car designed for that, rather than the automotive equivalent of a washing machine. My car has an electronic throttle, and I'm sometimes surprised how responsive it is, but it's not a boring transportation appliance like a Toyota. Toyotas are very reliable, but also reliably boring.

The separation of the control mechanism from the actual throttle valve also allows the carmaker to engineer the feel of the pedal, and do smart things like close the throttle for traction control and blip the throttle open slightly for downshifts. Brake override so that the throttle won't open if you're pressing on the brake pedal (or have the parking brake engaged) is possible too. Neither of those things can be done with a mechanical linkage or cable - the engine controls would have been limited to tricks like reducing power by retarding the ignition timing.

The Bose system was electrohydraulic. Pretty much all of the active suspensions systems have been electrohydraulic.

Re:Supercars

[thegarbz]

Oh and on topic. Didn't Bose (yes, the speaker people) already do this before?

Tom...

yes they did Though why anyone would want anything made by that overpriced junk company in their car is beyond me.

Re:Supercars

[chudnall]

I would pay an extra 5k to be able to basically ignore the speedbumps they put up incessantly around here.

Re:Supercars

[sarhjinian]

That delay happens to minimize emissions and maximize fuel economy; my Honda does the same thing. On a car that isn't designed to be an appliance, it doesn't work that way, and some cars allow you to tune throttle response for economy, normal, performance or batshit-crazy driving. Can't do that with a cable.

Throttle cables snap, snag, stick and, if they fail, have no multi-redundant backup, Sudden unintended acceleration (or no acceleration at all) was quite common in the era of mechanical throttle linkages. With electronic throttles you have at least two, sometimes more, indepedent signals that are sanity-checked against each other. If they fault, the computer knows why and how and will put the car in limp mode, whereas a cable will just go and let the engine race. We've seen what happens.

Face it, computers have made cars more reliable, better running, faster and more efficient. Knee-jerk Luddism is just that.

Re:Supercars

[pnewhook]

But isn't the Bose system that came out years ago fully electromagnetic? http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/automotive/bose_suspension/index.jsp

Re:Supercars

[Joce640k]

It's a new low for Slashdot when even the submitter hasn't read the article (if he'd read it he'd know how they measured the "60%")

Hint: It's in the paragraph that starts with: "The 60 percent ride improvement figure was obtained when...."

Re:Supercars

[CastrTroy]

Yeah, but some people (not myself, I'm too young) remember when you could fix something on your own, and not have to pay a mechanic $80+ an hour to do the work. All these features have their advantages and disadvantages. I find it quite interesting that computers have gotten to the point that just about anybody can put one together from parts, but that cars have gone in completely the opposite direction. I'm sure some people remember when putting a computer together meant using a soldering iron, or trying to figure out which if 15 different expansion card formats your computer supported. Now everything is pretty much standardized, cables and connectors only fit the proper way, and may other advancements. Cars are just getting more and more complicated. You could probably mass produce a "simple" car for about $2000 these days, but it seems as though nobody is willing to do it.

Re:Supercars

[b0bby]

It wasn't the submitter that hadn't read it, it was Timothy...

Re:Supercars

[h4rr4r]

Sounds like driving it would suck. Could never feel the road.

Re:Supercars

[sarhjinian]

You can still fix a car on your own, only some of the tools have changed. Most of the mechanical bits are not hard, and inexpensive scanners exist for the ECU. I know guys who tune cars pretty much by ECU hacking only, and it's still entirely possible (and quite common, if you read about all the people with Honda Civics who have dropped B18s or K20s into their ride).

On the flip side, there are tools that, for a modern car, you should generally never need to do because it's done at the ECU level, just as you should rarely need, oh, a chip puller or a desoldering pump for a modern PC.

Most of the grousing comes from people who don't want to change how they work with cars (or PCs, or what-have-you). They expect to be able to, oh, I don't know, bore out a block and depair not being able to fit a four-barrel performance carb to a modern car.

Re:Supercars

[rolfwind]

I had Benzes from the late 80s and 90s with this throttle delay, where the engine seemed to take a second to respond.

Re:Supercars

[geekoid]

if by 'speed bump' you mean obnoxious bicyclists, then I'll take it!

Re:Supercars

[rolfwind]

I find it quite interesting that computers have gotten to the point that just about anybody can put one together from parts, but that cars have gone in completely the opposite direction.

The average desktop computer is an unwieldy behemoth compared to a sleek laptop.

A desktop computer can use standard parts because the specs rarely change. Drives will be 3.5" wide, regardless if its cd/dvd/bluray/hdd. Even SDD, which most adhere to the 2.5" laptop size, will come with railings to get into the 3.5" space. You can dedicate space for the PSU, and the motherboard is usally ATX. You need to keep space free for any cards and for air circulation. A functional case from the late 90s won't be much different than a case today, except IDE cables turned into SATA.

OTOH, Vehicles have the same needs as notebooks. To compete on looks and a premium on space. They can't keep standards on things for 20+ years. Apple even designs their own motherboards and I guess the other manufacturer do as well. They can't agree on the standard, because advances make the minimum size a shifting target so shapes have to change. Notebooks and cars usually also need the exact same part in order to make repairs, so modularity, a strength of the PC, is out.

It would be interesting to have a car platform based on PC philosophy. Modularity and whatnot. I'd imagine it would be an electrically driven vehicle that can accept input from a variety of battery or generation from a fueled engine. It's body replaceable to perform a variety of tasks. I believe ford was working on such a future platform but cannot find it.

Re:Supercars

[TheLink]

I wonder how that car deals with slopes.

I suspect it's going to be bad if it thinks something is a bump when it's actually the beginning of a steep slope.

There's a limit to how high you can pull up the tires. Once you've got it maxed, and there's still some more "bump" there'd be no more room for shock absorbing...

So I guess a really practical version would either have to have you still feel the bigger bumps when you're going high speed, or have additional sensors to tell the difference between bumps and slopes.

Re:Supercars

[Hijacked Public]

As others have noted, you should not be driving an economy car if you want excellent throttle response.

Or you might investigate whether a tuner is available. I drive a diesel pickup some of the time, and with 'economy' settings loaded into its computer I can press the accelerator to the floor and it will calmly pull away from a stoplight, but it gets about 22 MPG. If I am pulling something heavy I can tap the 'tow' button on the tuner and add power, but drop mileage to 18 or so. If I want to act like a hillbilly the 'performance' button will let my spin all 4 tires and pin me back to my seat while burning 10 mpg.

Try that with a throttle cable.

Re:Supercars

[Lifyre]

It is also to buy devices that will allow you to change that peddle feel yourself if the car doesn't come with that feature by default...

Re:Supercars

[GooberToo]

Mechanical throttle cables?

Yeah, I remember them. When you tap the accelerator, the engine revs in time, with no delay due to slow actuators on the low-mid range end of the market.

You're ignoring the down side to those same cables. Flooding of the carb, back fires, carb damage, excessive gas being dumped and flowing out the exhaust resulting in much more exhaust waste, cooling of the catalytic convertor preventing proper operation. Not to mention, on a lot of vehicles, the inline actuator is part of a safety system which reduces throttle when traction or control is lost. Thusly, for most drivers, direct cable is far more dangerous to everyone.

Basically, it was more reactive because it was so wasteful. Now throttle response follows a consumption and efficiency curve rather than a dump, waste, and foul curve.

If you want a more responsive throttle, simply changing out your air filter can make a big difference; as well as making sure it remains clean. Something like a K&N filter can make for big differences. As can a new exhaust pipe. Basically, on many small displacement engines (really, many engines but especially so on small displacement ICE), their intake and exhaust are artificially restricted; with the intake much more commonly so by the air filter. Remove your air filter and conduct some quick throttle response tests. For many economy cars the difference in throttle response is noteworthy. If this is true for your vehicle, a K&N (or any other high flow filter) can make a big difference.

Re:Supercars

[flghtmstr1]

Actually, the Bose system used linear actuators, not hydraulics. It never entered production because the electrical power requirements were too high.

Re:Supercars

[adeft]

I've had a 2010 Camaro SS and now drive a 2009 Subaru STI......I don't know if you consider that higher end, but there is still a bit of a delay. It's treatable through tuning and aftermarket though.

Re:Supercars

[VolciMaster]

Oh and on topic. Didn't Bose (yes, the speaker people) already do this before?

Tom...

yes they did Though why anyone would want anything made by that overpriced junk company in their car is beyond me.

Maybe because it's where they *started*...

Re:Supercars

[Skal Tura]

Can do that with cable: Driver decides.

Throttle cables do not snap, snag, stick neither, unless on a maintenance it was damaged, improperly installed or otherwise. Cables are actually extremely durable.

I've seen faulty cables causing snagging, or even getting stuck. But in both cases reason was that it was omitted, and in both cases the owner knew the throttle cable was damaged, so it's actually a car owner fault.

Computers have their places in cars, but interfering with driver input is not one of them.

Re:Supercars

[afidel]

My concern would be with failure mode, if the electronics in a variable viscosity system give out you still have a hydraulic shock, when this thing goes you instantly have a failed suspension system which would be "not good" if you were in the middle of a high speed turn.

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

+1 PosterIsADriver

Re:Supercars

[toastar]

Woah.... Lidar Speed bumb detectors?

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

It's easy with a throttle cable. It's called throttle control. It's part of driving. People these days seem to want the car to do all the driving for them.

Re:Supercars

[Skal Tura]

Easy with throttle cable: Just use the throttle differently.

You know, accelerator has more than the 3 positions you seem to think there is: full stop, full acceleration, maintain speed.

It actually has practically unlimited different positions, which all have more or less linear effect for all practical purposes on the power produced. You can start burning tires, or you can extremely slowly limp up to speed.
You can also vary the speed of the change of throttle positions to have the desired effect, you can "slowly wakeup" the engine if it's one of those which respond slowly, or goto full output for the revs immediately or whatever in the middle.

Now, the electronics is doing that for you, and you are being ignorant and clueless about what is actually happening, and therefore loosing lots of potential savings in fuel consumption by not actually knowing what's going on.

Re:Supercars

[The Grim Reefer2]

You can still fix a car on your own, only some of the tools have changed. Most of the mechanical bits are not hard, and inexpensive scanners exist for the ECU.

Agreed, it is still very possible to fix your own car. However the mechanical components are a huge PITA as manufacturers don't waste much space under the hood these days. Fortunately parts last longer and many high maintenance items have been replaced. Distributor points are history (thank god), timing is and valves are dealt with via computers, spark plugs last much longer, etc.

Most of the grousing comes from people who don't want to change how they work with cars (or PCs, or what-have-you). They expect to be able to, oh, I don't know, bore out a block and depair not being able to fit a four-barrel performance carb to a modern car.

I used to rather good at rebuilding and tuning carburetors. In all honesty working with a carburetor is more of an art form IMO. However anyone that claims a carb. is better than fuel injection is a fool. Or the even dumber claim that a carb. is easier to tune that FI. The needed tools are generally cheaper for the popular carbs., but the understanding to set one up properly is vastly more difficult.

Re:Supercars

[GooberToo]

Sorry for replying to my own response...

I'll add, if you're interested in performing your own throttle response tests, you may have trouble doing so. Some vehicles can not run with their an open air box*. As such, you may need to simply purchase a high flow filter and swap out the filter for your test. If you're not satisfied with the results, simply return the filter after your tests.

(*) Some vehicles have a mass air (or variation of this type of sensor) which measures airflow (or change in air flow) between your air box and the engine. As such, with an open air box, the sensor can be circumvented which prevents sanity cross checks between other engine sensors and the values provided by the air sensor. Typically this results in the computer shutting off the engine.

Re:Supercars

[drinkypoo]

I really like how nobody bothered to RTFA, which is not unusual, but which addresses this point. If the power goes out it still damps, it just doesn't have variable damping.

I understand not reading the fine article before making a comment about something related, but actually bitching about something that ain't even true and which is covered in the article is kneejerk slashbotism.

Re:Supercars

[Dodgy G33za]

Two things spring to mind. Firstly didn't you drive the car before you bought it? And secondly, if you care enough to notice why haven't you asked your friends if you can take theirs for a spin to confirm your doubts. Don't take it as a critisism, my criteria for cars are safety, fuel economy and reliability, in roughly that order.

Re:Supercars

[drinkypoo]

Fixing a car on your own is EASIER now, because the car will often tell you precisely what the problem is; in other cases it gives you great clues. Further, the parts are usually smaller and lighter than they used to be and thus easier to handle. In addition, modern technology provides superior failure modes; for instance, coil-on-plug means you can lose a whole cylinder for any reason that is not a major mechanical problem and still limp home on the others, and crank and cam angle sensors mean you don't need a distributor. Going back to seriously antiquated technology (your "simple" car) wouldn't produce a cheaper car because there's more fidgety parts on a vehicle like that, although going back to a early 1990s (pre OBD-II) vehicle like a Civic of the era might. And of course, such a vehicle would never pass an emissions test of today.

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

Been trying to reply to this all morning. First reply I was on the train and didn't get to finish it, 2nd time I navigated away and FF lost the text... 3rd time lucky?

Right... I am under no delusion that the Vibe (I know I said Matrix but it's the same car and more people know the Matrix) is anything other than a shopping appliance. It's not actually my car, it's my wife's. I actually drive her old car - a Corolla (haha). Yeah, just getting settled in a new country so it will take a few years to get back to having a normal, manual, car. I am actually in the planning phase of building a Lotus/Caterham 7 replica from scratch. That will be my fun car that I can actually *drive* in. I will be using a throttle cable (or maybe even a double one for redundancy like in my old race cars).

Thanks for all that assistance you mention, but no thanks. I will stick to doing the driving if you don't mind.

I don't want interference from the system in this manner for TC. There are better methods, like missing a cylinder etc. I drove a Ford Appliance a few weeks back in the UK and with the 'Extra Sensory Perception' on, sporty starts were horrendous. If the TC had a chance to kick in, it shut off the throttle, the revs dropped down to way below where the power lives and you slug up through the revs slowly. With ESP off, you can get away with a little bit of wheel slippage (A certain amount is OK, especially when pulling away while turning and you are OK with the inside wheel having a bit of slippage) and keep in the power, limiting slip by modulating torque to the wheels *yourself* with the accelerator and clutch. Leave it to me please as, frankly, I can do a better job of it than your 'ESP'.

I don't want interference from the system in this manner for downshifts. If I am in the mood for sporty downshifts, I am more than capable of blipping the throttle myself - that is if the throttle response is adequate. Not an issue in our auto Vibe, granted, so the throttle response doesn't actively get in my way. Interestingly, I did not notice a huge amount of throttle lag on the Ford Appliance, so the Vibe must be particularly bad (As an example, I can be on and off the throttle completely, *before* the engine even starts to rev... just... if I'm really quick...).

I don't want interference from the system in this manner for brake override. WTF. If I want to be able to help the back round with a little left foot braking, then that should be up to me, the driver. If I am so incapable at driving that I need a computer to stop me putting my foot on the brake by mistake, then I should probably not be driving.

However, I do see how cars are going with some of the semi-auto boxes in high end sports cars that need to rev match. They need to have electronic throttles to achieve this. I have yet to drive anything modern & 'sporty' but I can't imagine liking not having a clutch pedal for controlled launches, but the paddle gear changes (NOT manumatics!) do sound kind of sexy. Maybe when I do drive something decent, my opinion of electronic throttles will change. But my point is, why have them be so appallingly bad on 'appliance' cars? It doesn't hurt to have a little throttle response. I get the economy angle, but meh.. can you at least give me an option to drive this appliance how I like?

Before this intervention, you could drive any mass produced econobox car just how you liked, but now you are prevented from doing so. I just really hate how the *driving* is being taken out of driving more and more. It is not doing us any favours in the long run, of that I am sure. We will end up as a civilisation that kind of know how to vaguely point these lethal projectiles where they want to go and that is that.

Ahh i'll be happy when I get my 7 done, I guess :)

The Bose system uses linear electromagnetic motors.

Re:Supercars

[Skal Tura]

you are speaking downsides of a carb. Fuel injection (which is computerized) solves all of those problems.

With a cable you can choose not to stick it directly to bottom but actually let the engine "wake up" even with carb.

Changing out air filter does jack shit, unless the one being replaced is overtly dirty. The stock air filter is often better than any "freeflow aftermarket" air filter by itself as the only modification. Air filter if designed properly at factory is NOT a restrictor, quite the contrary. For example in a few V8 BMWs we put in otherwise stock engine a huge aftermarket K&N cone filter, end result was less power, higher consumption. Only nicer sounds for those who enjoy intake sounds. Stock air filter was replaced quite soon. Same thing happens to most other cars as well.
The problem is that most common installation changes from cold air intake to sucking in hot air, or changes the total length of intake by shortening it, thus moving power more to the higher revs.

Whole exhaust, can do difference, but may actually again make things worse. It depends heavily on the exhaust manifold.

To get good power out of otherwise stock engine, an "more complete" solution is needed, in generally something like:
* larger exhaust. For higher powered 1.6L engine: 2", 2L engine: 2.5", 3L engine 3.5" and so forth. Rough figure. With lower power output, decrease the size a little bit. (Higher velocity of exhaust gas, thus causing sucking effect)
* Free flow intake filter ONLY if there is a reason to why stock might be restricting, and ONLY if you can make it get ONLY cold air (use the stock filter casing, or build a "intake box") OR in case stock is sucking in hot air but only when including cold air intake
* New HIGH QUALITY spark plugs (ie. Bosch Super4 for an regular engine)
* High quality new oil
* Ignition timing
* Possible new spark plug wires, and other wearing parts of ignition
* New oil filter
** Checking proper engine electrical grounding (All the way from battery to engine. Preferrably one grounding wire to block, and one to cylinder head)
* Coolant, with glycol
* Valve clearance alignment (only if engine needs one)
* Possibly better ignition coil (for stronger spark. Depends upon the engine's limitations)

along with HEAVILY REVVING the engine after doing everything that. You need multiple 100% load accelerations to clear some of the crap accumulated, the cylinder pressure & heat has to go very high temporally.
So regularly drive the engine for normal operation temperature. Then full acceleration and really quick gear change, all the way to rev limiter on 2nd and then let it "engine brake" for a while (say if rev limit at 6½k RPM, engine brake down until 5k RPM), cruise for a moment on higher gear (like normal driving), and redo multiple times. Also do for higher gears if possible somewhere in your vicinity.
The engine braking portion is also crucial, it will cause very low pressure in the cylinder.
It should clear some of the soot/deposits. The danger here is if the car is from longtime "woman's use", and never really revved more than like 2½k for a veeery long time (like 100k) very large pieces of soot might get loose and cause valve damage, if that happens, the engine was pretty much needing a complete overhaul in any case.
Some of the deposits should clear from cylinder and exhaust ports like this, but only often done high revving will have a good effect. A nice side effect is that it might help the piston rings to seal better if the engine is rarely revved high.

More exhausting solution is to remove cylinder head, intake, exhaust, clean it all up, realign exhaust and intake to cylinder head, get valve seams worked with multi-angle seams, clean up everything properly, change all gaskets, seals etc. and the engine easily becomes better than new (Depending upon mass mfg tolerances used). At that time you can also opt for better flowing intake or exhaust manifold of small size, not racing, but properly built fo

Re:Supercars

[GooberToo]

It's treatable through tuning and aftermarket though.

That's entirely my point.

Vehicles which have worse throttle response are typically vehicles which never require them. And ignoring my own responses above, its actually far more involved than I indicate. Idle throttle response is actually a poor indicator of over all throttle response for practical application of vehicles. In fact, an overtly fast throttle response at idle can lead to real world bogging when in gear. Meaning, if you make it too responsive at idle, you can actually be slower, less efficient, and have worse economy when driving in real conditions. Not to mention, it can also lead to higher wear 'n tear because of fuel removing oil from the pistol and cylinder and plug fouling. Which in turn can create dirtier oil and require more frequent oil changes. And that's still just getting started.

As such, its easier to simply say the modern goal is to allow for efficiency improvements. Its fairly rare for vehicles to require extremely responsive throttles and when they do, they typically fall into the sports or race car categories. And even then, typically their slightly slowed response is actually making you faster than a dump and foul system would.

Re:Supercars

[GameboyRMH]

Darn, beaten...

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

Having played with cars all my adult life, experimenting with mixtures, over-lean throttle response etc, I can just tell that this throttle response issue is not mixture/airflow related. It is a mechanical delay introduced by a slow actuator or, as I am starting to gather from some posts above, a programmed in delay for economy.

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

The criteria for this car were safety, reliability and CanIRunItIntoTheGroundOverMoreThanTenYearsWithoutItCostingAFortuneInRepairs-ability. So we went for a Toyota Corolla on our first car and when we were expecting a child, the Vibe (Toyota Matrix) as the 2nd. Well Vibe is wife's car, Corolla is now mine. The throttle response is not a huge issue, but I am just bothered that they make cars like this at all.

The next purchases will have different criteria :) I will probably get a Jeep as my primary car as I like playing off-road and I am building a lightweight 2 seater sports car as my on-road and track fun car.

Re:Supercars

[SkywalkerOS8]

I remember it as well. It was from Bose. Here's some video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSi6J-QK1lw It hasn't yet been incorporated into any vehicles though.

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

"If they fault, the computer knows why and how and will put the car in limp mode, whereas a cable will just go and let the engine race. We've seen what happens."

EFI systems are more than capable of putting an engine into limp mode without having control of the throttle.

Re:Supercars

[jenningsthecat]

I had Benzes from the late 80s and 90s with this throttle delay, where the engine seemed to take a second to respond.

Were those Benzes turbocharged? If so, then the problem may have been 'turbo lag'...

Re:Supercars

[GooberToo]

you are speaking downsides of a carb. Fuel injection (which is computerized) solves all of those problems.

They can solve those problems. I've seen a fuel injected vehicle (crossfire injection) backfire. It was actually very cool to watch. So absolutely NO, it does not solve all those problems. But absolutely, it does go a long way. The largest reason it helps prevent this is because you are no longer directly dumping fuel into the intake...rather its timed are carefully metered. The fact an actuator is inline to prevent this type of reckless throttle stomping goes a very long way without fuel injection.

Changing out air filter does jack shit, unless the one being replaced is overtly dirty.

Arg. You're completely talking about of your ass. Two of your initial statements are flatly wrong, and bluntly, stupid. Honestly, I stopped read there.

For many vehicles, throttle response is a function of various pre-computed curves which the on board computer uses. Furthermore, its EXTREMELY common for factory filters to be restrictive to air flow. As such, the computer curve is going to follow the available flow. A restricted air flow means a restricted curve. This is in fact, why so many use new filters and new exhaust to get more horse power and more responsive throttles. Period. The fact you don't understand the most basic of how engines and modern computers work, completely supports no one should waste their time with your idiocy. In fact, I'm sorry I read as much of it as I did.

Yes, some vehicles do not have restricted air flow. But then again, I didn't speak in absolutes. In fact, I encouraged others to experiment if this *may* alleviate some of their throttle response complaints.

I'm done with your stupidity.

Re:Supercars

[sarhjinian]

True, but it really helps to know when the pedal position sensors are not sane. Ask Toyota why.

Re:Supercars

[GooberToo]

You're right, it may be a slow actuator, but that absolutely is not universally true.

For the majority of vehicles, it absolutely is a mixture/airflow issue - up until the actuator limit, or any other programmed limit is reached; if, in fact, its reached. Modern vehicles use a closed loop. Which means, when air flow is restricted, the computer purposely slows everything. As airflow and corresponding mechanics can more quickly respond, so does the throttle. So for some vehicles, an improvement in airflow may make huge differences while in others, it can be very slight, if at all.

Yes, there are programmed delays from economy. But that completely ignores the fact that even at programmed delays, may vehicles are being choked by their accessories, including filter, exhaust, values, etc. Thusly, one of the cheapest modifications which typically benefit a broad selection of vehicles is, in fact, a high flow air filter.

If you read some of other replies, I specifically make note, I over simplified the issue, purposely so, added a number of other issues, and the offered, that was all just the tip of the ice berg.

These issues are all interconnected specifically because its a closed loop. But none of that changes, many cars, especially economy models, are frequently, artificially restricted. As such, something as simple as a high flow filter can made small to big changes depending on the specific engine.

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

A simple cable would have meant that problem never arose! :)

Re:Supercars

[Dare nMc]

Great, new cars will be able to go over current speed bumps without notice, so logically they will double the speed bump size...

Re:Supercars

[ceiling9]

It probably uses a frequency splitting response, like a high pass filter on the shock response to block out "steady state" response, so that it only responds to changes in the road - in the driving over a curb example, the shock would probably respond quickly (at high frequency) to the immediate bump, but wash out with some time constant to the normal position. If you hit the beginning of a steep slope, the shocks only would respond immediately to soften the transition.

So, right, big enough bumps (below some cutoff frequency) would be felt so as to not saturate the actuator, but most ride discomfort probably comes from higher-frequency bumps.

Re:Supercars

[jeffmeden]

Add to that the reduction of parts thanks to the electronic throttle. Cruise control system? Gone, now 100% electronic. Idle air control? Electronic. Traction control that was marginally effective by using timing limiters? Gone, now the throttle reacts faster than you can to changing road conditions. One simple part with a motor and sensor replaces a dozen other moving, fragile parts. The system as a whole gets more reliable, the car gets safer, we are all happier.

To the end of "I dont like that i'm not in control"... You drive a Matrix. How fast do you expect the throttle to react ffs? The computer isn't slow, the *car* is slow. Get over it.

Re:Supercars

[advocate_one]

I can vouch for this... my old Xantia was good in corners while the suspension was woking... sadly, fixing the problems it was developing was more than the car was worth... I miss the ride, but I don't miss the repair bills...

Re:Supercars

[stewbacca]

To be fair, the article is pretty skimpy on details.

The 60 percent ride improvement figure was obtained when a single wheel equipped with the system was mounted on a laboratory testbed that simulates road conditions.

Ok, so a single tire was mounted in a lab to a simulator. That's enough to determine 60% improvement? 60% of what? Over what? How many times do you drive your car on just one wheel?

However, the article is pretty clear in that electro magnetic shocks can respond more quickly and with less energy, so they do have the potential to provide botha sporty AND comfortable ride..something traditional equipment can't really do very well.

Re:Supercars

[stewbacca]

Wouldn't an electromagnetic device have less stuff to breakdown than a coil+spring+hydraulic cylinder + whatever else is in a traditional suspension piece now? Isn't this device a simplification of what it is replacing?

Re:Supercars

[sarhjinian]

To date on any car i've driven or a close friend has owned a significant period of time, only one had problems with the cable

Good for, you've got an anecdote. Go back through the years of statistics that the NHTSA maintained on recalls and incidents; Toyota's trouble stirred much of this to the surface and it's easy to find. Note how high SUA issues and recalls were.

Electrical throttle has given me grief many times tho.

You're driving the wrong cars, then. Electronic throttles have been well worked out on, well, just about everything from supercars on down. You'd think that, if mechnical throttles were better that someone---Ferrari, BMW, whomever---would be using them. They're not.

Now brake override: STUPID idea. Insanely stupid idea.

Again, I point to the recent Toyota SUA incidents as a counterpoint. It was proven that most people don't step on the brakes hard enough to overcome the engine, or that they pump the brakes, or that they do something similarly stupid. SUA rates were quite low for cars with brake/throttle override. It's actually a very simple, very elegant idea that works for most people. Oh, sure, it makes heel/toe and left-foot braking harder, but outside of rally drivers that sort of behaviour is asking for trouble.

You're under the impression most people drive on a racetrack. Most people don't.

All this interference with driver decisions for most part is simply because people don't care enough to learn to actually control a car.

Yes, that's true. And the "interference with driver decisions" is why road accident and fatality rates are at their lowest ever, despite there being more cars on the road than ever. Half the people on the road are, by default, below average. Most aren't all that skilled. Personally, I'd like to avoid getting hurt because someone isn't 31337 enough to induce just the right amount of wheel lockup to not skid into me, or apply just the perfect amount of opposite-lock.

ABS systems for example are FAR FAR FAR too slow and moronic to work on slippery surface (snow, ice, bad tires on wet tarmac).

Traction control often causes a car to get stuck because the traction control removes all power from the wheels

But they work well for most people under most conditions, allowing them to retain steering control (for ABS) or skidding uncontrollably (ESC). Yes, if you're a rally-racer they should be disabled. Most people aren't. You seem to miss that point

So my suggestion to you: Before you start lecturing, maybe you should gather some kind of ACTUAL driving experience.

My, aren't we elitist? Look, good for you that you can drive your home-built Caterham at 10/10s on the track and can tear down and rebuild and engine in two hours. I'm glad for you. But you need to realize that most people are not you, and never, ever will be you. So just keep sneering to yourself.

But don't assume that electronics don't make cars more reliable, more efficient, safer, cleaner and faster for 99% of the people out there who don't give a shit about throttle oversteer or adjusting camber between laps. The facts are a) cars have more electronics, and b) those cars are thusly better in every way for everyone who isn't a gearhead.

This thread started because someone offered the usual "Oh noes, more stuff to break!" fallacy which has been proven, time and again, to be utter crap. It wasn't started as debate on automotive purity.

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

As fast as any car with a throttle cable. It's all I ask.

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

Like my slow appliance Corolla shitbox, for example.

Re:Supercars

[sarhjinian]

Now, the electronics is doing that for you, and you are being ignorant and clueless about what is actually happening, and therefore loosing lots of potential savings in fuel consumption by not actually knowing what's going on.

Except that the computer is way, way better than the average driver at optimizing fuel economy.

Re:Supercars

[amRadioHed]

Yeah, we get the picture. You're a super-human driver with reactions faster and more reliable then any computer and who never makes a mistake and always does exactly what they mean to do behind the wheel. But you have to face the fact that 99.999% of drivers in the world are not you and that is who manufacturers are designing cars for. For most drivers, myself included, the car is a means to an end and they have no interested in wasting their time figuring out how to accelerate at the exact rate for optimal performance and efficiency. For us regular humans the computers do a better job and are more reliable.

Personally, I can't wait for driver-less cars to become a reality. The less involved in the driving process people are the safer everyone will be.

Re:Supercars

[bored_engineer]

Several comments:

1. Many fuel injected systems, which don't generally flood, also use a throttle cable. Throttle cables are not unique to carbureted engines.
2. Both a lean and a rich condition generally heat, not cool, the catalytic converter.
3. In fuel injected engines, fuel-based traction control is possible even with a throttle cable: Several manufacturers include an actuator on the throttle body that can close the throttle no matter what you do with the pedal.
4. The major safety improvement is that even if the throttle system is in the engine compartment, it can remain sealed from the intrusion of dirt and water
5. I don't think that fancy filters and fancy exhaust really make much difference at the bottom end, where most people are operating anyway. They definitely don't make a difference if your injectors and fuel pump can't flow enough fuel to match improvements in air flow. The real-world improvements from these "upgrades" that you recommend usually approach nil until you make other improvements that allow engine to actually use the improved air flow. Try this on a chassis dyno, rather than with "some quick throttle response tests." (I learned this the hard way as a youngster. The bummer is that my dad was in the background telling me that I was wasting money with headers, fancy ignition, et c. until I spent time and effort on the engine.)

Re:Supercars

[stewbacca]

Isn't that only a problem with automatics? I don't know, because I've never owned one (but have rented plenty).

Re:Supercars

[sarhjinian]

Throttle cables do not snap, snag, stick neither, unless on a maintenance it was damaged

That's brilliant. They never break, unless they do?

Cable problems used to happen quite frequently, and sometimes totally unexpectedly, and to housewives or sixteen-year old kids or seniors who had no clue what was going on, much less how to stop it. ETCS completely solves that by having two or more redundant, sanity-checked signals.

Do you want single-channel brakes back, too?

Re:Supercars

[AvitarX]

You can have your carborator and breaker point ignition.

My new fangled fuel injected car makes me quite pleased.

True, I can't do any work on it, but at 130,000 miles, very little work has been done (oil changes, which I could do if I felt them worth the time, a radiator issue, which probably would have been easier to replace in my '79 ford Granada (the hood had enough space to sleep in), breaks, tires, O2 sensor).

Considering 100,000 miles used to be significantly I think the maintenance of new cars is quite fine with all the complexity.

I like my radial tires too.

Re:Supercars

[kimvette]

Unfortunately the delay is intentional. My Saab has this delay and it's damn annoying. People who don't know better might think it's turbo lag but those cars have very little turbo lag; it is a delay in tip-in. It is supposedly a safety feature to prevent idiots from blaming the manufacturer when they hit the wrong pedal, but when I want my car to go, I want it to go NOW, damn it! I forgot exactly how long the delay is but it's between 1/3 and 1/2 second, and it is designed to do that intentionally.

Re:Supercars

[GooberToo]

Holy shit - what a blow hard post. As if ownership is in any way indicative of knowledge. With your genius, everyone is a rocket scientist because technically, we are all part owners of NASA.

Now brake override: STUPID idea. Insanely stupid idea.

Statistically proven you are completely wrong. Yes, its such a stupid idea the feature has become not only a commodity item, but were first introduced in high end cars and eventually in super cars. So obviously you know far, far more than the top engineers and top drivers in the world - simply because you've owned a few cars. Brilliant.

Closing throttle for traction: Again stupid idea. Any idea how hard it is to get anywhere in winter with just anykind of traction control? You've probably never driven during winter. (Oh and you can do it with simple solenoid valve if you have to, on a mechanical system)

Many vehicles allow you to disable the traction control system. Specifically, vehicles sold in areas where snow and ice are common, rarely don't have a means to disable because these are, in fact, some of the areas where traction control fail. If you live in such an area, don't buy a car where you can't disable it. Why am I not surprised such an easy solution is somehow beyond you.

As for my self, all of the vehicles I have owned with traction control, had a simple push button to disable it. Likewise, that same traction control prevented me from spinning out (lubricated tires and driving through freshly watered road, on an uneven surface - slicker than ice by far) on the first day I owned one of those vehicles. So me, like most of the real world, directly benefit from traction control in the majority of driving conditions. Yes, there were times I turned off traction control. Then again, there were plenty of times where it reacted far faster than is humanly possible. Period.

And of course, this completely ignores that computer controlled brakes also means we're talking about ABS. For the vast, vast, vast majority of drivers, ABS is literally and world changing, safety technology. So clearly, its very stupid, as you insist. Factually, something like less than 1% of the driving population can do better than ABS. Furthermore, where ABS typically does far better than humans is where humans drive as their absolute worst.

If you happen to fit in that 1%, awesome! Good for you! Seriously! But stating improved safety for 99% of the driving community is stupid, actually is stupid. That seems to be a common cord with your posts.

In any case, electric accelerator introduces lots of new BREAKING, WEARING parts, lag and cost due to the extra parts.

It only creates additional wear when required. Sounds like you're a completely reckless driver. Yes, it costs more but the economic benefits, by far, surpass the initial incurred costs. That is why ABS vehicles even receive insurance discounts.

Pretty much anything which interferes with driver control is actually quite bad idea

Yes, because humans never have wrecks, except for all of those caused by technological advancements. Sorry, but reality says you're an idiot.

maybe you should gather some kind of ACTUAL driving experience.

LOL.....................lol........

Can you possibly understand the idiocy and irony of such a statement? LOL....I seriously doubt it...lol.... That is truly fucking priceless....lol...seriously...I am laughing out loud...

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

It entirely could be for all I know. Having only had an auto for the last few years (It's painful, so painful), I cannot say.

Re:Supercars

[HornWumpus]

That and you don't have to pray to Satan to find the correct set of 'adjustments' (mostly bending of linkages) for a quadrajunk.

Re:Supercars

[sarhjinian]

The problem is that automobilia is a competitive market with not a lot of differentiation. Economy cars are bought and sold on comfort, reliability and economy, and ETCS (and the sometimes-odd behaviour it enables) improves those metrics. If you driven any of the more recent 40mpg+ compacts, they all go for the high gears, hold onto revs and lug the engine where possible.

If you don't like this behaviour (or brake override, or stability control, or what have you) you're on the right track with, eg, a Caterham. You could also pick up any one of a number of sport-oriented cars that perhaps don't run as clean, or are as reliable, but they're more aligned to what you want.

The problem is assuming that what you want is better for most people, or is better in holistic or objective terms. It isn't.

If I am so incapable at driving that I need a computer to stop me putting my foot on the brake by mistake, then I should probably not be driving.

The problem is, most people who do drive probably shouldn't, by that logic. What you're proposing is akin to requiring people who own a PC to have a Comp Sci degree. It would be nice, but it's not going to happen, so we need alternative measures to save people from themselves. Personally, if ABS/ESC prevents someone from skidding out in front of me, or plowing into me at a stoplight, and if ETCS ensures cleaner air and less fuel used, then I'm all for it.

Re:Supercars

[HornWumpus]

FYI fishing line is much cheaper and, when strung between light poles, will tighten up a bunch of critical mass morons nicely.

Re:Supercars

[sscroggins]

It is skimpy, but I would think that because they are using accelerometers as part of the loop that it would be pretty easy to have them put into the equivalent of crash test dummies in a passenger seat of a vehicle without the EM suspension. Drive it around a track and chart the results. Install the EM suspension and repeat.

Re:Supercars

[yurtinus]

Thank goodness! I was lost in this car topic until somebody posted a decent computer analogy!

Re:Supercars

[sscroggins]

I've actually had a throttle cable snag on a Mustang several years ago. The car was maybe 6 years old at the time. It's pretty terrifying to be going down the street and your car decides to start going faster even though you're foot isn't pushing down on the accelerator. When you pretty much need to stand on the brake to stop the car it opens your eyes to some of the potential problems that can occur from mechanical parts.

Re:Supercars

[Dare nMc]

I agree to avoiding anything that make a system more complicated without a clear advantage, is to be avoided. I will say each system does have it's application, for instance a modern car that comes with Automatic, and Cruise control has to have a throttle position sensor, and a throttle actuator, adding in a throttle cable, and a linkage to tie both together is adding unnecessary complication (IMHO.) Of course a Diesel with EFI (what I drive) their is no reason for any mechanical linkage from the throttle anyway, and it works great.
Traction control, ABS systems can be a clear advantage in the condition of a un-alert driver (tired, distracted, inhibited, poor reactions...) these systems are then savers. Not for me in general, I went out of my way to find a vehicle without as many of those as possible, then again I take my vehicles to auto-crosses, etc and learn to drive in those situations. But they have their applications.

Re:Supercars

[sarhjinian]

It would be interesting to have a car platform based on PC philosophy. Modularity and whatnot

Most platforms are fairly modular already. VW's MQB and MLB are examples: two platforms, just about everything they and their child brands make.

Re:Supercars

[yurtinus]

I imagine it will be designed with typical suspension traits in mind: compression, rebound, and damping (on both compression and rebound strokes). When it approaches a slope, it's going to allow the ground to push the wheel up using the linear actuator to really fine tune the compression damping (the motors are not likely to "pull" the wheel in). However just like on a spring, the linear actuator is going to start providing increased resistance throughout the suspension travel to keep it from bottoming out. The advantage to this system is that you can vary the spring rate based on terrain and driver preferences.

Re:Supercars

[tom17]

"The problem is, most people who do drive probably shouldn't, by that logic."
A very unpopular opinion, but I actually believe this. Alternatively, ensure that driver training is *actually* comprehensive, including driving skills such as limit-finding, cadense braking, car control. These things would need to be taught off the public roads, on skid-pans yes, but this should be a compulsory part of driver training. I do believe there are some countries where this is compulsory.

Maybe it's overkill you say? Maybe we'll never drive like this so what is the point? Well, maybe you end up driving in wintery conditions, or extra slippery wet conditions, or oil on the road - this is when some basic car control is important. I see and hear of sooo many accidents when it's snowing. Yes, in modern 'clever' cars too. Having a clue about how to control a car properly would actually save lives. But no, let's do a quick drive and a test. That'll do it, not like driving is dangerous or anything.

We need a driving reform.

"What you're proposing is akin to requiring people who own a PC to have a Comp Sci degree."
Except computers are not 1000Kg+ projectiles being hurled vaguely in control around public spaces.

Re:Supercars

[skids]

To date on any car i've driven or a close friend has owned a significant period of time, only one had problems with the cable
So my suggestion to you: Before you start lecturing, maybe you should gather some kind of ACTUAL driving experience.

Does having my accelerator cable snap on a busy street in downtown NYC count?

Re:Supercars

[skids]

More and new features= more opportunities to break down

Not true. In some cases, this one included, a "new feature" is actually replacing equipment that is more complicated and more prone to breakdown than the new technology. This system is targeted at drivers that think they need an active suspension. Active suspensions are usually hydrolic, which means lots of pumps, valves and tubes. Meanwhile, electromagnetism can exert force without requiring a mechanical coupling and the associated wear and tear.

They made a big deal about hybrids being complex when they first came out, and totally seemed to miss the point that the hybrid drivetrain got rid of the alternator, the starter motor, and the transmission gearbox.

Re:Supercars

[GooberToo]

ABS systems can be a clear advantage in the condition of a un-alert driver (tired, distracted, inhibited, poor reactions...) these systems are then savers. Not for me in general

Statistically speaking, you're more likely to be in a wreck when you are one of those distracted, inhibited, tired, drivers. So while you may be an excellent driver, there is still finite windows in time where you are actually one of the more dangerous drivers on the road.

I used to be a really good, advanced driver too. Like you. It was a matter of pride I was one of the 1% drivers who, on average, could do better than ABS, could handle my car in a variety of conditions, so on and so on. But realistically, even then, I wasn't on the top of my game all the time. And that's true even for professional athletes who need to truly perform at the top of their game a tiny percentage of their professional career. And now that I'm slightly older and no longer actively practice such things, that window has become much, much larger.

Realistically, humans being humans, going out of your way to avoid vehicle safety features is going out of your way to become a more dangerous driver - for at least some of the time you're on the road - even if it may be a small percentage now. And even if that's not true today, it will be tomorrow.

Re:Supercars

[Coren22]

Toyotas are very reliable, but also reliably boring.

Might I suggest test driving a modern Toyota Camry 2.4 Ltr 4 Cyl?

I love my Camry SE, it out accelerates many "performance" cars, has wonderful handling, and does not have a bit of the issue from the GP.

Re:Supercars

[Garble Snarky]

OK, you "chart the results", and then what? To compare ride quality between two different vehicles, you need to be able to measure it first. You need a way to take the position vs time data, and produce a "ride quality" value from it. How did they do that? The article provides zero information about that.

Re:Supercars

[GooberToo]

Some of those were diesel which had lag problems because of engine design. Made worse were the ones with turbos because of turbo-lag, precisely as you point out.

A lot of the problems associated with diesels from the 80s and early 90s are specifically why they are so hated in the states today.

Re:Supercars

[afidel]

I doubt the fixed magnets are going to be big enough to provide much dampening, despite what the press release says.

Re:Supercars

[sarhjinian]

The problem is that there is no way you will achieve what you want. People are not going to become better drivers instinctively because those kinds of reactions are something you condition for, not something you can test and train and expect someone to duplicate when 99% of their driving is wholly uneventful. Only for race-car drivers is training really feasible

We have stats that prove that driver training is, truly, not very helpful for most people. We also have stats that show that ABS, Airbags and ESC all reduce accident frequency and severity. This sounds counter-intuitive and unpleasant if you subscribe to the liberatarian "personal responsibility, first and foremost" philosophy, but it doesn't scale to millions of drivers.

Believe you me, I'd rather have a preoccupied commuter on the highway with me in a car with ESC/TSC/ABS than in some bare-bones crap-box from the seventies.

Cars, like computers, are appliances. Enthusiasts need to come to grips with that.

Re:Supercars

[Joce640k]

The article provides zero information about that.

It doesn't really have to. They're engineers ... I imagine they measured things like peak G forces, min/max displacement of car relative to ground over time, stuff like that.

It's called "math".

Re:Supercars

[Altus]

It has been a couple of years since I have driven a toyota but my primary complaint with Toyotas is the suspension. Its soft and smooth and it feels like your gliding along on a cloud but it totally isolates you from the feel of the road. I'm sure many people love that about them but for me, I would much rather have a stiffer suspension that gives me a lot of feedback. For that I like the VWs (in this general price range, obviously higher end cars have nicer suspensions).

That is what I find boring about Toyotas, other than that though, I was very pleased with the one I owned.

Re:Supercars

[drinkypoo]

I doubt the magnets will do much dampening either, but I suspect that if they can get them close enough then they can do sufficient damping.

I'm fairly passionate about the subject of damping because it is mostly done very poorly. Even when it is done well it is generally done very far from ideally. A through shaft design would eliminate most of the nonsense but reduces travel as compared to the length of the shock body. For some applications this matters very much, but even in places where it does not we do not generally use a through shaft. The very best air shocks tend to have a short service life and all the others tend to be garbage.

If you buy into the notion that an average automotive electrical system can operate a magnetic damping system then I don't see why you wouldn't believe that simple magnets could do the job. I suppose you've never heard of a magnetically levitated bearing?

Re:Supercars

[bored_engineer]

Fuck You. The notion that somebody would reply so rudely astounds me.

Raw fuel heats a catalytic converter. When catalytic converters were first put on carbureted engines, this was a common failure point. The fuel ignites in the converter, sometimes melting the catalyst. Some of the early converters used beads as the catalyst. These beads conducted heat poorly to neighboring beads, so they would heat very quickly, melting and eventually plugging the converter. Converters are more robust today, and engines much more tightly managed, so this particular failure mode is much less common.

The real-world results to which you are referring are so small, and at such a high throttle, that they're useless to 99% of the driving public. At best, a high-flow air filter moves the point at which the air flow chokes back to some other point, such as the throttle body, the intake manifold, the head (or heads) or the valves. In many instances, the air filter isn't even the restriction that chokes the intake as a system. I handled one of your closing sentences obliquely, but I'll address it out-of-order here: Of course restricted air flow reduces the potential of an engine. Perhaps you should learn to parse what you read properly, then come back and notice that my assertion is that there are bigger gains to be made elsewhere.

The comment to which you first replied was made by somebody driving a Toyota Matrix. This is not a performance-oriented car, so he's probably bothered about low-end throttle response. At the low end, a high-performance filter is not going to change anything. By necessity, the air flow will not be choked by a clean air filter at low engine speeds. A performance air filter CANNOT make any difference at the engine speeds that Tom17 is probably driving.

I didn't say "all", I only used the plural. In your original reply, you mentioned both an air filter and exhaust, hence my plural usage. As to idiots on slashdot, I was just now asking the same question.

Really, you little shit-tard, you know nothing about me. I've been repairing and improving cars since I was 14, for close to 30 years now. I was a mechanic for ten, until I finished an undergraduate degree in Mechanical Engineering. I'm quite aware that such experience doesn't necessarily make me smart, but your assumption that I'm stupid may be misplaced in the face of your demonstrated ignorance of air flow basics. Your continued, and false, assertion that hot catalytic converters cool with the introduction of raw fuel similarly betrays your ignorance. What's most disturbing to me is your bravado. You sound to me like some young little shit trying to cover his ignorance with bravado. I strongly doubt you would talk to me this way if you saw my time slips at the track. Have a good day: I've wasted too much time on you already.

Re:Supercars

[Coren22]

That would be the main difference between the "CE/LE/XLE" and the "SE". My SE has a pretty stiff suspension, it does not roll in turns and I can feel every bump in the road.

Re:Supercars

[Altus]

Those cheep ECU scanners don't do everything though. I was having issues with my ABS on my VW passat. I had pulled the ABS module a year ago and got it refurbished (because a new one is fucking expensive) and it had been fine but it was acting up again. I needed to determine if it was the Module again or if it was the speed sensor.

The tool to do this cost over 300 bucks. There are adapters for computers but I couldn't seem to find cheep/free software that would give me that data and I didn't want to buy an adapter that wasn't going to solve my problem. Ultimately I paid a mechanic 100 bucks just to diagnose the problem (10 minutes, tops) because it was cheaper than buying the tool.

For basic ECU issues like your engine light coming on, those 20-40 buck scanners work fine, but the more complex your car is the more complex tools you need to diagnose and maintain it.

Turns out I was right about the speed sensor. The behavior is slightly different than a bad module. Of course I needed the tool to tell me which of the 4 had gone bad.

Re:Supercars

[Dare nMc]

Statistically speaking, you're more likely to be in a wreck when you are one of those distracted, inhibited, tired, drivers.

I agree, and understand that risk. Through practice and planning I will be safer than without practice and planning and having the safety features, so can justify to myself with that reasoning (even if it would be safer doing both.) Also I really prefer the systems I can currently work on, and would really like to see more of these advanced systems become more open with the software and logic, monitoring, etc. Maybe then (like the retro EFI I am putting on my rebuild project) I would feel more comfortable putting that tech into my ride of choice.

Re:Supercars

[The Grim Reefer2]

Everyone hates Q-Jets. I forget what the price was for the tools to work on them, but it wasn't cheap and it's been a long time. Believe it or not, they are one of the best carburetors out there. The problem is you need more than a screwdriver to work on them unlike like on a Holley. Obviously Holley's need to be easy to adjust though, since they need damn near constant tuning. In all honesty, if you were to tune identical cars one with a Quadrajet and another with a Holley and never touch them again, the Q-Jet will be fine for a very long time. The Holley on the other hand will need to be re-tuned the next time the weather changes, or you drive up a mountain. If you set up a Holley at home and take it to a track that's at a different elevation, you will definitely want to re-tune. Q-Jets are a very complex carburetor and it's very easy to make a mistake with them. Truthfully, I wouldn't even consider working on one now as it's been way too long since I have.

Re:Supercars

[crhylove]

You forgot about planned obsolesence. I'll give you that there have been technological advances, and that we COULD have less problems per mile. But we don't. At least not in every case, and certainly not with American cars. Also, we've lost a LOT about what used to make American cars great.

I drive a 1964 Dodge Dart GT. I built it myself. I know every part of the engine and how and why it works. I also can figure out immediately what is wrong if something goes wrong, but tellingly, almost nothing ever goes wrong. The car is all steel. Tons of room inside, AND inside the engine compartment. The tranny has been serviced ONCE since 1964, and that was just out of morbid curiosity, not necessity. I've rebuild the engine twice, but once because I built it wrong initially, and the next time because I was beating my car up like an asshole (and having a ball doing it!).

We COULD have really great electric cars with almost no maintenance save for new tires every couple of years. They COULD be ludicrously cheap. We COULD be charging them with our own solar panel covered garages.

But corporate control is the name of the game. They control every government, every person, and through the patent and copyright system, every idea and technology. So we don't have anything but crappy products with built in life spans that cost 100 times more than they should.

Fuck your hybrid.

Re:Supercars

[Alien Being]

Car makers are designing cars for themselves. All they want is low manufacturing cost and a captive audience for specialized replacement parts and repair procedures.

They aren't making cars idiot-proof, just unresponsive and unreliable for drivers who have a clue.

Re:Supercars

[mldi]

Not true. As cars have gotten more complex, they've also gotten more reliable because electronics allow greater precision and control. Problems per mile has been going down for the entire industry, and the most complex cars (hybrids) are among the most reliable.

Citation needed.

And before using how often something breaks down as the sole determinant of whether it's better or not, consider costs of replaced parts, costs for labor, the fact that less hobbyists can fix the problem, etc. I'd rather have some shocks wear out after 50k miles and be able to replace a few gaskets for $100 and do it myself than have my new computer controlled BS and god-knows-what-they-bundled-in-this part wearing out after 60k miles only to have to haul it in to a mechanic with the right equipment and get that entirely replaced for $850.

Personally, I'd rather have something simple, but not too simple. The parts are cheaper, and there's significantly less to break down. As far as TFA goes, I'd only be interested in this type of suspension if it's easy to install/fix and the parts remain cheap.

Re:Supercars

[Tideflat]

That is because it is safer. Less things for the user to control, which means less skill to drive, which means less operator errors, which means less car crashes, which means less people dying.

Re:Supercars

[flyneye]

I wonder what caveats come with the EM systems. EM fields have a way of turning up in close proximity to things they shouldn't.
Call me pessimistic after this last years round of repairs is good money thrown after bad. I had the luxury of owning pre '70s vehicles. Internal combustion rockets before the Envirommunists ruined cars forever. The sheer simplicity, ease,enjoyment of working on or rodding your car. Cheaply even. Well, we saved the world and cars are complete garbage. You pay arguably, dependent on your location, as much as a small house, which could go a century or so compared to the 4,6,or 8 years cars are engineered to obsolesce, and repair outweighs the value of the car.
So , my first post should be no surprise to anyone. I'm finally to the point that I eagerly await the advent of the electric car. There should be so little to manufacturing them that they shouldn't cost more than $10,000 once the batteries standard is met ,agreed on and mass produced. I'm actually considering buying a rollaway bike frame with a title, adding an appropriate Balador motor,6 marine batteries,rheostat throttle grip and utilize the bikes existing brakes, there are a few details, but all in all it seems easily within my grasp for around $3000 U.S. I should get highway speeds with decent acceleration and a ballpark conservative 150 mi range.It'll get me around town between charges. All I want till I can get a car that will compete in performance and price in direct ratio to that expected of gasoline bikes and buggys. Anyway ,simplicity and cost effective with no gas, damn little oil and pennies to drive. FTW

Re:Supercars

[flyneye]

I eagerly await electric vehicles. Very few moving parts, no particular reason they should cost half as much as a gasser for materials and engineering. I may build a Motorcycle while I wait.

Re:Supercars

[flyneye]

It should amount to a fancy rheostat, I don't understand where his delay comes from. Unless it's programmed to be a deathtrap.

Re:Supercars

[flyneye]

Murphys Laws rule the automotive world. If you have an EM device in a vehicle, somewhere some corporate engineer stoolie will locate it in a place where it will or will eventually be a problem. Like next to a crappy control computer. Shit breaks down. If they made cars that didn't fall to shit, no one would get a new on or buy parts and manufacturers would be unable to continue to overpay union flunkies to carelessly work that assembly line. After all the consumer will pay for it all.
  Make cars simple and cheap and jettison the unnecessary things standing in the way of that.

Re:Supercars

[rolfwind]

No, just normal gasoline.

Re:Supercars

[EnglishDude]

In 2003 or thereabouts, when I test drove an Opel Zafira GSi - a petrol car with electronic throttle - I noticed immediately the difference and guessed that it had an electronic throttle - before that point - I didn't even know cars had electronic throttles. I looked up online and sure enough, the GSi has the electronic throttle, while the other Zafiras don't have it. The computer actually smoothed out my responses and made the ride better, even if I didn't feel 100% right, such as flooring the pedal felt different, somehow.

Couple years ago, when I brought my 2001 diesel Opel Astra - same platform & engine options as the Zafira (the Zafira is basically a pregnant Astra) but the car I got was bottom of the range - it felt "right" including when I floored the pedal, so I suspected the accelerator had to be mechanical. 2 months later, I explored the option of having cruise control - found out that I could get OEM cruise control fitted cheaply (about $20) but only if I had electronic accelerator pedal. I went out to check, thinking it was mechanical, and to my surprise it was electronic. Of course, being a diesel, it doesn't have a throttle, but boy I was surprised, it felt as if I was using a mechanical throttle.

Re:Supercars

[badkarmadayaccount]

Your issue is not with electronics per se, but poorly implemented solutions.

Makes me think of a hovercraft

[cboslin]

The first thought that came to my mind when reading this post were hovercraft over water and maglev trains.... No give me a power source that has nothing to do with fossil fuels and you might have a winner!

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[EraserMouseMan]

I can't believe the number of people that think the only by-product of fossil fuel is gasoline. Even the roads you would drive your no-fossil-fuel vehicle on are made out of by-products of fossil fuel. The resin-molded arm-rests. The insulation around every wire, the rear-view mirror enclosure. The window tint. The lubricating oil. The foam in the seat. A vehicle that has "nothing to do with fossil fuels" would not be a winner.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[heathen_01]

It would still be a winner. Just more difficult to acheive than some people may realise.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[Ksevio]

Whenever I see stories about new suspensions, I think of the skateboard in Snow Crash. It made the ride smooth by looking ahead to predict how the suspension should be rather than a reactive solution. That would make the smoothest ride though would be difficult to implement.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[geekoid]

No it wouldn't.

I can build a car that doesn't use fossil fuels. The impact on the environment and cost would just be orders of magnitude worse. IT means all the plastic would not replaces by wood, stone, or leather. The electric engine would be far cruder, the wheels would be wood banded with a metal.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[MightyYar]

I can't believe the number of people that think the only by-product of fossil fuel is gasoline.

I hate to be a pedant, but you started it :) It's only a fuel if you burn it. Someone can quite rightly say they want a no-fossil fuel vehicle and still use plastic. Cars in particular are very recyclable.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[hoggoth]

I disagree: http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS289QmwyzRoJ83kN_yA3tgs1V1KLurfxDOEWSmjDye3CLX7Xm_

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[lyml]

Just because oil is a cheap source of polymers doesn't make it the only source of polymer. I'm afraid you're a bit deluded if you think it's impossible to create plastics and rubber without oil.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[afidel]

There are alternatives to most of that, most of the plastics can be replaced with bi-plastics as can the foam. Synthetic lubricants are generally superior but are more expensive. Roads can be made from concrete (again more expensive, today). I'm not sure about the window tint but thin film bio-plastics are possible.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[hedwards]

I'm going to call bullshit on that. It's might not be realistic at present, but we will run out of oil eventually, and we've already run out of most of the easily tapped sources. You're suggestion that we couldn't do any of those things is laughable. Ford for instance has had an alternative to oil for the seat foam for decades, and has recently started using it again.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[radl33t]

ugh 80% of the problem is the problem................

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[drinkypoo]

Concrete roads are shit. They cannot be adequately repaired, which is the biggest problem with them. There are many others. Asphalt washes up on beaches even if we don't drill for oil. Synthetic lubricants are horrible for the planet, as they take an order of magnitude longer to break down in the environment; the ubiquitous oyster mushroom (actually the whole family) breaks down ordinary petrochemicals without trouble. You CAN make crankcase lube out of vegetable oil, though; you can make every plastic part on the car out of a plant source as well. Windows can be tinted with metal as part of their production instead of adding stickers; indeed, this is already done on some fancy auto glass.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[cboslin]

I can't believe the number of people that think the only by-product of fossil fuel is gasoline. Even the roads you would drive your no-fossil-fuel vehicle on are made out of by-products of fossil fuel.

I did not intend to go there, but since you did, I will go a bunch of additional, yet related and intertwined subjects and areas....here we go...

I just do not want to have enrich people who do not live locally to me by buying gas and oil anymore. And most of the manufacturing for those other things is done offshore (out of the United States today – I am against this) they can use foreign oil and not domestic oil. Or did you not think of that.

If enough people (American citizens) had vehicles that did not run on gas/oil but instead ran on fuel that was created locally, what a boon to the economy that would be.

I know a guy in Ca, first hand knowledge, that grows his own fuel and burns it in his truck. His cost is less than $2.00 per gallon. I saw that first hand, have not been fortunate to visit his farm where he grows and creates the fuel yet, but just knowing its possible gives me hope. He had been running on grease but when companies locked up his supply of grease, he had to come up with another option...he has been at it for years...this is NOT NEW technology.

Bare with me, this might not seem related, but trust me it is...

I can pay $8K - 12K for a vertical wind generator that will produce 100% of the power of my home. In many hot and humid states A/C is practically a necessity and your electric bill can run $300 per month. Even the heater in the Winter would keep the electric bill over $200 and that is in a climate with a mild winter. I know because mine did for many, many years. At $8,000 \ $300 = 26,67 months to recover the cost of my investment, or 2.22 years. The life expectancy of that vertical wind generator is 20 years. Since I have read about homes that have solar (some of the new 3D cells work with indirect sunlight) and batteries for nighttime and when the wind is not blowing...I know I can live off the grid 100%. Many people do today and I plan to. This is NOT NEW yet the MainStreamMedia (MSM) will not encourage you to stop putting money in the hands of their corporate sponsors, therefore you will not hear about it except from other ordinary people that are doing it.

One of the many lies is that living off the grid is not possible. That is a lie.

Back on topic, if enough of us (American citizens) used alternative sources for electricity at home, powering are vehicles from those sources. There would be more than enough oil to create gasoline for military use and take our country 100% off foreign oil. It would not take 10 years or 20 years either. I am planning for 5 years and intend to do it on my own...pioneer spirit! Without the need to drill baby drill and kill off yet another food source. After all do any of us believe the Gulf will ever be clean again? BP won a safety award this year too, you gotta be kidding me. What a joke. I recently found three electric vehicles online that would be good for short trips, one under 40 miles @ 65 mph, another under 100 mile @ 40 mph both on a single charge. Charging time less than 15 minutes. Three others were in between those two ranges of miles per charge and speed. These exist and our for sale today, not tomorrow, not 5 years or more from now. Again not new technology.

Obviously if I charge it at home, off the grid, with my own power setup (wind, solar, ???) than I am not burning fossil fuels in a power plant providing me that electricity.

Two companies, one in Italy and one in Germany produce compressed air vehicles that work. If you want an alternative that is not electric for your vehicle. Again available today, not new technology.

A friend of a friend went to a funeral in Germany last year, came back telling his friends about vehicles that get over 75 miles per gallon. So its possible today. Even the current

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[sincewhen]

I don't know - Fred Flintstone seemed happy with his car...

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[badkarmadayaccount]

Actually, biopolymers are plenty cheap, as well.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[badkarmadayaccount]

Synthetic lubricant in a electric car would be very rarely changed. Concrete roads can have high-viscosity resin channels in them, making them self-repairing, not to mention that they are much lower maintenance by default.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[drinkypoo]

Concrete roads can have high-viscosity resin channels in them, making them self-repairing, not to mention that they are much lower maintenance by default.

I don't buy the idea that they are lower-maintenance than tarmac, but then, I live in California where we have lots of both kinds of roads and I've seen what concrete roads do. Before they are considered to have "failed" they have tilted so that they provide a rough ride... and the only way to fix it is to completely rip up the road down to the bed, then replace it. And they are already expensive and you want to make them moreso? I don't know what you mean by "resin" but perhaps you meant epoxy. There are so many things wrong with that idea I don't even know where to begin.

Concrete roads are garbage and anyone suggesting them is either a shill or a buffoon.

Re:Makes me think of a hovercraft

[badkarmadayaccount]

I'm not one to claim that I know everything, but keep your ad hominem attacks for yourself. Please feel free to begin from anywhere in your argumentation. California climate has a lot of thermal cycling, making it not the best place for concrete. OTOH, Germany puts them to good use, AFAIK.

Bose

[lcampagn]

I'm pretty sure Bose did this at least 4 years ago: http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/automotive/bose_suspension/index.jsp

Re:Bose

[lcampagn]

...and here's a patent filed in 1988: http://ip.com/patent/US4892328

Re:Bose

[Kilrah_il]

And lcampagn would still have beaten you by 4 minutes. Sorry.

Re:Bose

[CastrTroy]

You really should just use something like PasswordSafe

Hazarding a guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

That seems an awfully exact figure — I'm not sure any two people would ever agree even about the exact same car's "overall ride quality."

Without reading the article I am willing to hazard a guess that the 'overall ride quality' has been defined as 'mean acceleration' or 'maximum acceleration' as experienced by the driver. Then this figure suddenly makes sense...

Re:Hazarding a guess...

[PhilHibbs]

Yes, 61.73% would be an "awfully exact" figure, 60% not so much.

Re:Hazarding a guess...

[elsurexiste]

They should have said "This ride is about 20% cooler"

Re:Hazarding a guess...

[mwvdlee]

60% is also an awfully believable figure. Usually press releases claim 1,000% or 10,000% improvements.

Re:Hazarding a guess...

[EraserMouseMan]

Or even, "With the advent of this revolutionary technology Apple is considering it for the iPhone6 and the iPad3."

Re:Hazarding a guess...

[PhilHibbs]

It begs the question, 60% of what? "60% of bumpiness removed" and "60% improvement in bumpiness reduction" are completely different.

Re:Hazarding a guess...

[Bob-taro]

FTA:

The 60 percent ride improvement figure was obtained when a single wheel equipped with the system was mounted on a laboratory testbed that simulates road conditions.

Okay, that doesn't really answer your question, but it does imply that the 60% is based on some physical metrics as opposed to something like a customer survey. It also implies that with this suspension on all 4 tires it would be a 240% ride improvement!

I guess you've never heard the stereotype

[DataDiddler]

That seems an awfully exact figure — I'm not sure any two people would ever agree even about the exact same car's "overall ride quality."

Dutch people have the rough analogue to "perfect pitch" for ride quality. I'm guessing they got to about three significant figures in the study but rounded it off to sound a bit more plausible to the rest of the world. No serious studies have to be done on why exactly Dutch people have this ability, but the current predominant theory among many is that it has something to do with putting mayonnaise on french fries.

Re:I guess you've never heard the stereotype

[somersault]

What? Who wouldn't put mayonnaise on french fries?

(assuming they ate french fries, which I no longer do)

Re:I guess you've never heard the stereotype

[mwvdlee]

I see you got the joke.

Re:I guess you've never heard the stereotype

[raddan]

I don't have a problem with averaging over people's reporting of "average ride quality" to come up with a figure like "60% better". Subjective measures are important, particularly if you're an automobile manufacturer. Nobody cares that it is hard to pin down what a 5-star rating on Netflix means, but it is clear that a movie rated 4.5 stars is seen to be better than a movie with 1.2 stars.

What I'm more concerned about is: how did they conduct the study? Did the same people ride in both cars? Could testers tell the difference between the cars, aside from "ride quality"? How were people assigned to the cars? Was there a control group? How many people participated? You don't need a precise unit of ride quality to make a sound statement about what people think about it, but you do need a well-designed study.

Re:I guess you've never heard the stereotype

[turing_m]

Thanks, this thread needed more levity.

Re:I guess you've never heard the stereotype

[TheCarp]

I will note though.... 60% isn't terribly exact. 60. is far more exact, as is 60.0

They only reported 1 significant figure!

Finally

[Rik Sweeney]

a representative from The Netherlands' Eindhoven University of Technology presented research that his institution had been doing into a novel type of electromagnetic vehicle suspension.

Flying cars :)

Bose ...

[AwaxSlashdot]

http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/automotive/bose_suspension/index.jsp

Shocking..

[TehClaws]

..development indeed!

Re:Shocking..

[i_b_don]

If you're shocked by this then you're in for a bumpy ride!

d

Re:Shocking..

[Xelios]

This string of puns is off to a rocky start...

Re:Shocking..

[Bucc5062]

/.'ers will bounce back and spring into action with more puns.

Re:Err : "improve the overall RIDE QUALITY by 60%

[somersault]

It's pretty simple, you'd define ride quality by how smooth a passenger's travel is. Harsher accelerations would score worse. I wonder what they're comparing it to though, since there obviously can be a vast difference in ride quality in even cars with the same type of suspension, depending on how they're set up.

Re:Err : "improve the overall RIDE QUALITY by 60%

[clang_jangle]

Boy, it sure is lucky for them you're around! I shudder to think how many resources might have been wasted putting this folly into production, had you not been here with all the facts and numbers to prove -- oh, wait...

Fine for gas or diesel,

[pecosdave]

but if I had a hybrid/electric car I'm pretty sure I would rather that electricity go to turning the wheels, not keeping my chassis away from them.

Re:Fine for gas or diesel,

[KonoWatakushi]

That's what the spring is for. An electromagnetic "shock absorber" dampens oscillations by collecting the energy as electricity. It is essentially a linear motor run as a generator.

Re:Fine for gas or diesel,

[pthisis]

but if I had a hybrid/electric car I'm pretty sure I would rather that electricity go to turning the wheels, not keeping my chassis away from them.

According to TFA, the system actually draws less power than hydraulic shock systems:
With a peak consumption of 500 watts, the suspension uses about a quarter of the power of hydraulic systems. It also stretches its battery life by using road vibrations to generate electricity. The designers believe that with refinements, the suspension's energy-efficiency could be improved even further.

Re:Fine for gas or diesel,

[Gordonjcp]

They are probably talking about pressurised hydraulic systems. You'd be surprised how much the coffee mug sized hydraulic pump on a hydropneumatic Citroen takes to run - possibly as much as 2hp with a heavy demand on the hydraulics. That said, most of the demand is from the power steering; the brakes use about a tablespoon of fluid every time you press the pedal and once the car is up to normal ride height it only takes a little trickle of fluid to keep it there (usually it'll take two hours for it to settle back to the ground).

The cost-reduced version of the Citroen hydraulics used on Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars uses a slightly different design of pump, but they have a bit more power to drive it...

Re:Fine for gas or diesel,

[necro81]

While electrically active suspensions use power, the best-designed ones can be regenerative: when the wheel gets pushed upwards by a bump in the road, electrical power can be extracted from that stroke. Another consideration is the overall efficiency of the vehicle: keeping the wheels in better contact with the ground and the car at a constant elevation over the road leads to increased overall efficiency. In any car, vibration through the wheels and noise is wasted power. Even considering the power involved to run the suspension, smoothing the ride could act as a net gain.

Re:Fine for gas or diesel,

[drerwk]

I am not sure about the brakes using only a tablespoon. If I recall on my ID-19 and DS, there is an anti-dive mechanism used during braking and I think it worked by putting more fluid into the front suspension, which not directly due to braking would still cycle the pump.

Re:Fine for gas or diesel,

[Gordonjcp]

Actually no; it works by a trick of the suspension geometry. The torque from the rear brakes cause the suspension arm to try to pivot up into the body, lowering the rear of the car, and on the DS and ID with leading-arm front suspension the front brake torque would try to pull the suspension arm down, lifting the front.

GSes, CXes, BXes and XMs with more conventional wishbones (parallel link wishbones on the CX and GS(A), single wishbone and strut on the BX, XM and Xantia) don't dive but they do sink towards the road perfectly level, when everything is working properly.

Re:Fine for gas or diesel,

[stewbacca]

From the TSA it appears that these are self contained systems (for the most part).

Damned TSA has their fingers in everything these days!

Old Muffler collector

[kj_in_ottawa]

I wonder what the impact on ride quality would be when you pick up a large piece of metallic debris, like say an exhaust system that rusted off.

This wouldn't happen often, but would be interesting when it did.

Kenny

Re:Err : "improve the overall RIDE QUALITY by 60%

[pstils]

I'm just going to use my imagination to answer that: couldn't you just drive it on a "uniform-bumpy" road at 30mph, and put an accelerometer in the car, weighted down on the driver's seat with 11stone of sand in a bag. Average the reading. Change the suspension. Do the same again... You can't directly measure something like ride quality, since there my be subjective factors - some people might like to "feel the road", others may like to drift along in ghostly serenity, but there are certainly proxies, like the one I've just imaginated for you.

Re:Err : "improve the overall RIDE QUALITY by 60%

[Tim C]

"Acceleration experienced by people in the vehicle for a given test drive" would seem to be an adequate measure of the quality of a ride - more bumps, more accelerations, worse ride.

have they even considered RFI

[FudRucker]

will this electromagnetic suspension interfere with radios?
that is the last thing a public safety professional or ham radio operator, (or anyone else that uses a radio) would want is the suspension on their car or truck causing RFI

Re:have they even considered RFI

[hufman]

It probably won't affect anything, because magnets don't create radio waves.

Re: If the battery fails

[Mouldy]

Granted, I didn't rtfa. But I would imagine that the car's alternator would be able to keep the suspension going even if the battery did fail. Plus, if your battery is that knackered, you probably won't be able to start the car at all.

Vertical acceleration

[captainpanic]

Ride quality = less vertical or sideways acceleration
Just put a device in the chair, where your bottom would normally be, and measure sudden accelerations (shocks). It's quite easy to do.

Re:Vertical acceleration

[chaodyn]

For military vehicles, it's measured in Watts - or absorbed power at the driver station (after passing the acceleration through a filter representing a human). So basically short duration accelerations are tolerable, but many of these drive up the absorbed power. Using absorbed power as a metric, you can then measure the impact of the suspension quantitatively as done here.

Re:Vertical acceleration

[stewbacca]

So providing zero g's of feedback to a driver is better? No thanks.

Cadillac STS

[Sporkinum]

I have a 2002 Cadillac STS with magnetic ride control. Here is a 2002 press release.

GM's Magnetic Ride Control - The World's Fastest Reacting Suspension

Detroit, Mich. - General Motors took vehicle handling and comfort to a new level with the January introduction of Magnetic Ride Control on the 2002 Cadillac Seville STS, the world's first production car with this leading-edge active suspension.

GM's Magnetic Ride Control is a complete, stand-alone vehicle suspension control system that uses innovative magneto-rheological fluid-based actuators, four wheel-to-body displacement sensors, and an onboard computer to provide real-time, continuous control of vehicle suspension damping.

The system responds in one millisecond to provide superior ride, handling and control on even the roughest road surfaces. Magnetic Ride Control uses a simple combination of sensors, as well as steering wheel and braking inputs from the driver, to reduce noise, vibration and harshness for a smoother ride.

The system's onboard computer reacts to wheel inputs from the road-sensing suspension by sending an electronic signal to coils in each damper, changing the damping fluid's flow properties. This fluid contains randomly dispersed iron particles that, in the presence of a magnetic field, align themselves into structures adopting a near-plastic state. This action regulates the damping properties of the monotube struts, changing up to 1,000 times per second.

The system offers an expanded range of soft-to-firm damping capabilities for increased control over vehicle motions for a flat ride and precise handling. The active suspension helps maintain the maximum amount of tire patch in contact with the road, providing improved wheel control for a safer more secure ride. This new technology also helps reduce the traditional tradeoff between ride and handling.

Magnetic Ride Control is superior to the traditional suspensions and the real-time-damping systems found in other performance and luxury vehicles that use an electromechanical valve to control hydraulic pressure for shock damping.

Engineers at GM Research & Development laboratories, and later with experts at Delphi Automotive Systems, explored ways to reduce or even eliminate the inherent restrictions of valve-based damping systems. The result is GM's revolutionary system that eliminates electro-mechanical valves entirely.

Magnetic Selective Ride Control will debut as standard equipment in the 50th anniversary Chevrolet Corvette for the 2003 model year. That system will feature tour and sport suspension settings. The tour mode, with its extended range of damping capability, is so capable that it alone provides all the control an everyday driver needs. The sport mode, provides an extra measure of control and feel for performance enthusiasts who want to take their cars on track.

This technology yields greater levels of tuning precision and ride quality. Ride and handling engineers developing vehicles with Magnetic Ride Control can spend their time adjusting the algorithms that control the damping responses on a computer, and are enabled to fine-tune ride and handling characteristics to unprecedented levels of specificity. As a result, drivers will notice better ride quality, less body roll and improvements in overall handling.

General Motors , the world's largest vehicle manufacturer, designs, builds and markets cars and trucks worldwide. In 2001, GM earned $1.5 billion on sales of $177.3 billion, excluding special items. It employs about 362,000 people globally.

###

Magnetic Ride Control: Fact Sheet

What is Magnetic Ride Control?

Magnetic Ride Control is a complete, stand-alone vehicle suspension control system that uses magneto-rheological fluid-based actuators, four wheel-to-body displacement sensors, and an on-board computer to provide real-time, continuous control of vehicle suspension damping.

How does it work?

Magnetic Ride Control is made possible by the developmen

Re:Cadillac STS

[ThreeKelvin]

If you read what you posted, you'll notice the following:

How does it work?

Magnetic Ride Control is made possible by the development of magneto-rheological (MR) fluid located inside the monotube shock dampers. The fluid is a suspension of magnetically soft, tiny iron particles in a synthetic hydrocarbon-based solution. The fluid's consistency can be manipulated through the precise application of electronic current, resulting in continuously variable, real-time damping. In fact, the development of MR fluid is so significant that medical researchers have adapted it for use in high-tech prosthetic devices, such artificial knees.

In other words, the technology used in your car is not comparable to the technology discussed in the article, with the exception that both technologies use active instead of passive dampening.

Re:Cadillac STS

[pthisis]

magneto-rheological fluid-based actuators

The STS-type hydraulic reactive systems are discussed briefly in the article:

While active suspension is nothing new (at least, not for cars), it has previously mainly been integrated into hydraulic systems. According to the Eindhoven researchers, however, hydraulics can't react as quickly as their electromagnetic system, and therefore can't match the smoothness of its ride.

Re:Cadillac STS

[Sporkinum]

I couldn't really tell from reading the article what methed they used for damping, other than is was electromagnetic. The Delphi system is electromagnetic in the sense that a coil around the tube of the shock creates a magnetic field that stiffens the the MRH fluid in the shock. It can do that within 1 millisecond, which I would think is sufficiently rapid. If the Eindhoven system is a free floating linear motor, it should be capable of a wider range if dampening though. I am not sure how it would work when failed. The Delphi system with no power applied acts as a normal shock with just one level of dampening. It does cost $700 a shock to replace though.

Re:Cadillac STS

[timeOday]

Sounds like a cool system, but it is limited to modulating the dampening, and the springs are still just passively pushing on the road, not knowing if they ought to be pulling to suck up a bump or pushing to counter body roll.

Re:Cadillac STS

[HornWumpus]

My 1990 Cadillac Alante had this. The shocks are NLA so it doesn't any more.

That's just adjustable damping, this is active suspension which is also old news.

Re:Cadillac STS

[Sporkinum]

The Seville came with 2 different spring sets, the f45 and f55. When it used the old solenoid driven shocks, the solenoid active suspension just toggled between to valve settings in the shocks. The magnetic shocks are much more adjustable by the computer. The f45 springs were the softer set, which was for a plush ride and squishier handling. The f55 springs are what was used in all vehicles with the magnetic active suspension, and are pretty stiff.

Re:Err : "improve the overall RIDE QUALITY by 60%

[drinkypoo]

Second, "if the batteries should fail, the system will still work as a purely mechanical suspension". FAIL. A mechanical suspension is BOTH a spring AND a damper. If the electromagnetic damper fails, you're headed for trouble.

You left out the context, asshole:

The spring â" appropriately enough â" provides springing action, while the magnets provide passive shock absorption. If the batteries should fail, the system will still work as a purely mechanical suspension.

The article is stupid, and the person who wrote it is stupid, because shocks don't provide shock absorption, but shock damping, which is what the magnets do when the system is not energized. The only thing you lose is the active part of the suspension, which modifies the damping statically provided by the permanent magnets to reduce or increase the damping force. Therefore, you are also stupid.

Re:no cars needed after big.shutdown.pr.gov

[TapeCutter]

Your conspiracy bot still has a few bugs.

Re:Err : "improve the overall RIDE QUALITY by 60%

[Zencyde]

Read the article. It's mentioned that there's a proper magnet along with the spring. Also, "ride quality" seems to be, in this case, a measure of the force transfer between the road and the passenger. The less the passenger experiences, the better the "ride quality".

Re:Err : "improve the overall RIDE QUALITY by 60%

[neokushan]

In the future, all cars will likely be electric, so if the batteries fail, the suspension will probably be the least of your worries.

Re:Ride quality

[neokushan]

Put some sort of accelerometer in the car and take measurements with and without the suspension?

Re:queen mother, uncle sam; incestual lineage upda

[lineswine]

1955 called, they want Sen. MacCarthy back...just not in one piece.

Re:'america', 'innovation'.

[unity100]

except that similarly, many of the crap that is touted from america as innovation gets done years ago somewhere else, but noone sees worth touting and advertising as innovation isnt it.

Bose had something like this

[dxk3355]

I worked for Bose back in 2005 and they were researching something like this. They were partnering with GM at the time but I think it fell out because the system was too heavy. There's a video floating around on YouTube of a car jumping over a bump using the Bose system.

Re:Derivative of the acceleration

[ThreeKelvin]

The derivative of acceleration is called jerk, and is indeed the measurement used for measuring ride quality, at least when comparing cruise controllers.

Re:Err : "improve the overall RIDE QUALITY by 60%

[williegeorgie]

Actually us pavement engineer types do this all the time. Basically the input to the function is the profile of the pavement measured by a pavement profilometer which essentially captures pavement elevation about every 6 in or so. (http://www.dynatest.com/functional-rsp.php) Then this profile is fed through an algorithm that models the response of a hypothetical "quarter car" (basically a spring above a tire to simulate the amount of movement experienced by something on the axle). This measurement is called the International Roughness Index and it has been correlated to "Ride Quality" perceived by highway users. It is not a perfect measurement but it is used quite frequently to help decide pavement projects. if you are more interested.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Roughness_Index http://www.umtri.umich.edu/content/LittleBook98R.pdf So for this thing they would need some other model to calculate the "movement" induced by road profile on the vehicle much like IRI. Once you have that you could correlate it to Ride Quality, have they done that? That is the question...

Re:Ride quality

[_0xd0ad]

60% sounds precise? It sounds very imprecise to me. It's a single digit of precision on a scale from 0 to 100, and even then I wouldn't be surprised if their margin of error was as much as 10% in either direction.

I'll keep my old shocks

[xgr3gx]

I wonder what the price tag would be. Of course, if you never have to replace them that would be a plus.
What I would really like to see is shocks that could generate electricity that recharge the battery in a hybrid/electric vehicle.
It could probably work somewhat akin to those generators that harness power from ocean waves. Not sure how much power you could get from the motion generated by 4 shocks moving a few inches in each direction.

Re:I'll keep my old shocks

[Geminii]

As a bonus, all cars would come with the ability to bounce. :)

To the author:

[L4t3r4lu5]

You are correct; No two people have an identical opinion in ride quality, and none have the ability (as far as I know) to quantify improvement. So, they fit the cars with devices which monitor travel of the body during test conditions and compare that to the travel on stock suspension.

60% improvement will be 60% reduction in body travel compared to stock mechanical suspension under test conditions using body travel as the metric (or some such).

Re:To the author:

[ArhcAngel]

Since this is /. it requires a car analogy.

No two people have an identical opinion in ride quality, and none have the ability (as far as I know) to quantify improvement.

Because if everyone could GM would never be able to sell any Chevrolet vehicles. Look! A car analogy AND flaimbait in the same post.

Re:To the author:

[louks]

In auto racing, cars are often taken to vibration rigs to analyze damping and suspension packages. There are a LOT of numbers spit out, and ultimately reduced to: Pitch and Heave coefficients, Hub Natural Frequencies, and something called CPL, or Contact Patch Load (Variation), which is a number that defines how much the tire is working or "being worked" for grip. Those numbers can be EASILY be reduced by a defined value (like 60%) if proper active tuning is applied.

Active systems were banned from motorsport in the 90's in order to reduce cost and prevent computer failures that could be catastrophic, but I'm sure by now active suspensions would be cheaper in annual cost than the amount of vibration testing and damper development that is done today by every team...

Re:'america', 'innovation'.

[thegarbz]

Not sure if you were a troll or not but this was patented in the USA in 1988: http://ip.com/patent/US4892328 oh and is being currently sold by an American speaker manufacturer.

Re:'america', 'innovation'.

[unity100]

patenting things without producing them is u.s. specialty. this firm actually had had demonstrated the technology. if you come down to that, i can patent billions of ideas that are only in dreamscape yet. without producing and showing shit for it. then i can come up in future and demand payment when someone actually does it. and this is the american way.

Re:Ride quality

[wookaru]

From TFA:

The 60 percent ride improvement figure was obtained when a single wheel equipped with the system was mounted on a laboratory testbed that simulates road conditions.

That's not exactly a complete answer, but I would guess the mounted an accelerometer or some other device to measure vibrations and compared that number to a passive system run over the same course. But I am making a bit of a leap there...

SHould it have surprised me that the poster

[geekoid]

didn't even read the article?

"The 60 percent ride improvement figure was obtained when a single wheel equipped with the system was mounted on a laboratory testbed that simulates road conditions. "

See Tata in india

[stabiesoft]

No power windows, locks, A/C, etc. I think it is around 2K as well.

'awfully exact figure'? Not really

[countertrolling]

My '63 Plywood Fury came with a windshield that was 63% more transparent than the previous year's model.. And you wouldn't believe how soft the new WondaWeave(TM) seat covers are. And it came with a brand new gladiator and two barrel carbon maker..

Re:'america', 'innovation'.

[geekoid]

" i can patent billions of ideas that are only in dreamscape yet."

No, you can't. If you can detail them enough to patent them, then do so.

You can't patent 'ideas'.

And yes, many invention comes from America. You are just rooted into your 'belief' and haven't bothered to look.
We develop many innovations; inventions to solve problems with the drones in Afghanistan; New self guided artillery; New battle medic steps to save soldiers life(innovation, not really patentable invention); a pill the takers picture and transmits them wirelessly; and many, many other medical inventions.

Don't fall into the /,. trap and thin things summed up into a few sentences is an accurate description of the detail of an invention.

It's like saying wi-fi wasn't an innovation because Marconi knew about radio.

Yes. some patents are BS. The vast majority are not. Yes. the patent system needs some change, but it does not need a sweeping reform.

Re:Err : "improve the overall RIDE QUALITY by 60%

[geekoid]

third, RTFM, you douche nozzle.

Hindsight

[ArhcAngel]

I wish I had thought to patent this idea when I had...when I was ten years old. *sigh*

Re:Ride quality

[itsenrique]

I keep seeing this question begged. I keep seeing the same response. When they say 60% smoother, they probably mean it travels 60% less for the same amount of damping, or it travels 60% faster, or something like that. Anyone whos ever bought aftermarket performance struts (Bilstein, Eibach, etc) knows that manufacturers love to make numeric claims, they are sometimes plastered on the box. But really, I have a question for everyone who's asked this for the 10th time: Who cares if you don't think ride quality is as quantifiable as the inventors, isn't the idea of a purely electromagnetic suspension cool enough?

Re:Ride quality

[itsenrique]

I suppose the question is then, when it is "without" what suspension are they using? You obviously can't just test a car without a suspension (not for ride quality anyway).

Re:'america', 'innovation'.

[unity100]

No, you can't. If you can detail them enough to patent them, then do so.

oh of course i can detail them enough to patent them. just like the endless number of patents we reviewed here on this site, i can give vague but seemingly relevant details and construct a whole creation of abomination and patent it. it may totally be unworkable. and then i can came up and sue anyone who is doing anything vaguely resembling it.

this is the way patent system works in america.

as for 'many inventions' coming from america, you are way too invested in the bullshit that your corporations peddle you to justify the social situation in your country. if you hadnt been too immersed in that, you would actually take the time to read science history, and that would lead you to get a whole different perspective on life.

Re:Ride quality

[neokushan]

Well, I doubt they've designed an entirely new type of car, so logic presumes they've got an off-the-line model and retrofitted it with their fancy new suspension.

Throttle cables

[aclarke]

I've had mechanical throttles stick wide open on me at least three times that I can remember. Once was on a motorcycle when I was about 17. I was up to about 4th gear, wondering semi-concernedly what I should do, when I remembered the kill switch.

The other two times were in my Land Rover Discovery after off-roading. The cable got too dirty and stuck open. In both cases, the solution was to turn the car off, pull over (being careful to avoid steering lock) and free up the cable.

The point is that things can, and do, go wrong with any system.

Re:Throttle cables

[tom17]

I had it once, on a racecar. I think I forgot to tighten the cable clamp after doing some work on the car. Oops.

Not the cable's fault though. If carefully maintained, a cable is very reliable.

What I don't know is how reliable the mechanism is on the electronic throttle actuator. How do I know that it won't get jammed WOT?

Re:Throttle cables

[tom17]

No wait, i'm lying. It wasn't the cable clamp (That would imply no throttle). It was stuck open through my error. I forget why now... Ahhhh yes.. Return spring. It's why the racing regulations called for multiple return springs :)

Re:Throttle cables

[Altus]

Wondering what you should do? When in doubt, grab the clutch!

Though following up with the kill switch is probably the right way to go before you damage the engine.

Re:Ride Quality Metric

[TheCarp]

> Since they offer a figure, they are obviously referring to some kind of metric.

94.5% of all figures have no metric associated with them.

60% figure

[Framboise]

My guess is that one of the following number is used:

- average *acceleration change* as felt by passenger,

- average energy transfert in body,

on a standard bumpy road.

Service life?

[chocapix]

Being essentially solid-state devices, these dampers probably have a much longer service life compared to traditional dampers. Maybe long enough that would not have to change them, ever.

That would be much more interesting than 60% better ride quality (as if it's not already near perfect in modern cars), or active suspensions (which already exists).

Re:'america', 'innovation'.

[Buelldozer]

Bose not only patented this but has the technology for sale and HAS conducted public demonstrations of fully functional systems.

If you'd bother to check before running off at the mouth you'd know this before making yourself look foolish.

http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/automotive/bose_suspension/the_system.jsp

tl;dr You're ignorant and displaying it.

60% Ride Quality improvement?

[stewbacca]

Just curious at how one measure's "ride quality"? The article describes the performance features of this suspension system that make it a better performance suspension, but that is usually mutually exclusive to ride "comfort". Most of my fellow Americans prefer the billowy-soft cloud-like ride of their Buicks. This system sounds awesome, though to people who actually want nimble, responsive cars. It seems it can eliminate the mutual exclusiveness of traditional performance vs. comfort suspension designs in place now.

Re:Ride quality

[Bob-taro]

Doesn't 60% imply 2 digits of precision?

Reckless throttle stomping?

[HornWumpus]

WTF are you posting about cars for you woman.

What is the best color for a car? Should it match your shoes?

If a car backfires when you stomp the throttle it is badly tuned.

Re:Reckless throttle stomping?

[GooberToo]

If a car backfires when you stomp the throttle it is badly tuned.

Holy shit - another complete fucking idiot. You can't even maintain proper context. The fact you completely destroy context to make yet another stupid and invalid point, which falls completely outside of the original context does wonders to validate you are a complete fucking idiot.

Holy shit you people are truly fucking idiots.

Re:Reckless throttle stomping?

[HornWumpus]

WTF are you talking about.

You made a blitheringly stupid point about electronic throttles solving a non-problem.

I called you on it, get over it.

Re:Reckless throttle stomping?

[GooberToo]

Go re-read the post and place it back into its original context. At which point in time, I'm absolutely sure, assuming you can even do such a simple task, we will both be in absolute agreement you are a complete fucking idiot - exactly as I previously described.

Ohhh...I called you on it.

Holy shit, you get dumber by the second.

Re:already have that

[kimvette]

Since the 2003 model year.

Previous years used conventional hydraulics (FX3 in models through 1995, F45 from 1996 through 2002), with an adjustable electronically-controlled valve to change stiffness on the fly. It worked really well too - it could make driving on cobblestone or grooved pavement tolerable. I keep mine on the stiffest setting most of the time, unless the road conditions are really bad. My car has the Z51 suspension and FX3 selective ride control - both came standard in my car (optional in the base model then - now all Corvettes from the lowly base model all the way up to ZR1 get this feature standard).

Re:Ride quality

[_0xd0ad]

Only if you already know that the zero is precise. In general, trailing zeros are not considered significant figures unless they're after the decimal point.

Is this the shock absorber from Nova?

[KDN]

A few months ago on Nova there was a segment on using a magnetic non neutonian fluid in a shock absorber. It was paired with acceleration sensors. The idea was when an em field was off, the fluid had a low viscosity and allowed the shock to move freely. When you turned the EM field on, the viscosity increased, thus making the shocks stiffer.