Slashdot Mirror


Workers Will Smash Their PCs To Get an Upgrade

An anonymous reader writes "One in four office workers reckon that the best way to get a new work computer is to smash up the one they have — either that or to take it down to the junk shop themselves. Some 40 per cent of office workers complain that their aging workplace PC hurts their productivity and many are tempted to resort to extreme measures to get an upgrade, including taking a hammer to the aging beast on the desktop. Some ten per cent of UK workers said they'd even resort to buying new parts for their work devices themselves to perform their own upgrade; particularly those who work in smaller organizations."

533 comments

  1. Maybe I should try this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Running Windows 2000 at the moment. Anyone got me beat?

    1. Re:Maybe I should try this by grub · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, we have some poor Vista users.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    2. Re:Maybe I should try this by lxs · · Score: 1

      Not me, I'm stuck on Win2K at work as well. Have to run Opera, because Firefox is too slow on this machine.

    3. Re:Maybe I should try this by dingen · · Score: 1

      I'd be happy if I were you, Windows 2000 is the best version of Windows ever released by Microsoft.

      --
      Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
    4. Re:Maybe I should try this by thsths · · Score: 1

      I guess I should count myself lucky then - XP got rolled out long ago, and the transition to Windows 7 is about to happen, with XP support ending some time next year.

      But on the other hand we are struck with McAfee, and the enterprise version with a paranoid configuration can bog down the faster supercomputer to a leisurely pace.

    5. Re:Maybe I should try this by Stenchwarrior · · Score: 1

      I have Windows ME installed at home, not using that crap at work, though.

      --
      Loading...
    6. Re:Maybe I should try this by isopropanol · · Score: 1

      A certain video store whose US parent company (where IT decisions were made) is bankrupt is still using VAXes in some stores (but mostly Alphas).

      Win2k is fairly common at banks.

      At another company someone asked if they could break their printer to get a new one and I told them truthfully that no, they'd just get one that someone else had broken and had subsequently been repaired just enough to pass the tests.

    7. Re:Maybe I should try this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We have 80,000 Vista SP2 users. Guess what? There isn't anything wrong with it. It works great. In fact, we are getting resistance on rolling out Windows 7 to them because what they have is "just fine" and they don't want to go through the small amount of downtime required to install a new OS, absorb any (small) training costs, etc. Thankfully we finally got rid of the last Windows XP (at least that we support - there are a few vendors with vertical apps that still "only support XP" but all supported XP installs are gone). Now, if you meant your Vista users don't have any money then maybe you should pay them more.

    8. Re:Maybe I should try this by stewbacca · · Score: 0

      There isn't anything wrong with Vista? Let me counter your anecdote with mine. Vista sucks.

      My customers (mostly government and defense) have skipped Vista altogether, staying on XP and now slowly rolling into Win7. For once the government got good advice from their overpaid consultants.

    9. Re:Maybe I should try this by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      But on the other hand we are struck with McAfee, and the enterprise version with a paranoid configuration can bog down the faster supercomputer to a leisurely pace.

      Back when I had to run Windows at work the anti-virus was the biggest cause of performance problems on my system. It got so bad that I had to get permission from my manager to run without an anti-virus because over a couple of years it had gone from decently fast to impossibly slow solely because of the anti-virus sucking up more and more CPU cycles.

      The only people who ever got viruses on their systems were in marketing, and the only thing the anti-virus did for those of us in software development was trash a few machines when it decided that some important Windows file was actually a virus and deleted it so the machine couldn't boot anymore.

    10. Re:Maybe I should try this by Zeek40 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      They still launch rockets with VAXes. I worked on the Space Lift Range System Contract for my Internship, and learned the terrifying fact that they're launching giant missiles into space 20 miles from my house with Computers older than me and ancient wire-wrapped TTL chips in perfboard, and basically no one knows what hardware does what anymore because everyone who built the stuff is retired or dead.

      We had a launch control board assembly fail shortly after I started my internship, and a rocket was supposed to go up the next week. No one had any idea where or how to get a replacement, then someone remembered that the old 'backup' system was moved to the Kennedy Space Center Museum. They made a call, grabbed an armed guard from the base, drove up to KSC, swapped the broken control board with the museum piece, and launched a rocket with it a week later. To the best of my knowledge, they are still launching rockets with a piece of hardware literally salvaged from a museum of history.

    11. Re:Maybe I should try this by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      There's nothing wrong with it. I used it from release until Win7 release and never had a single issue, and I know others who didn't have issues as well. Everyone I have ever heard reporting issues either a) was trying to cram it into a machine with 256 MB of memory or something obscene like that, or b) was hating just because everyone else was.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    12. Re:Maybe I should try this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what we're doing here. We'll be starting our Win7 roll-out via attrition this Summer. We'll be doing this over a period of 3 years as the warranties expire on our hardware, so we'll have XP until 2014.

    13. Re:Maybe I should try this by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      My first experience of Vista was trying to download a driver to a friend's laptop and having to sit there for several minnutes while it copied the downloaded 2MB file from IE's temporary directory to the download directory.

    14. Re:Maybe I should try this by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      The way my office computer was set up, I could install Chrome but not not Firefox ... either's better than Internet Explorer; granted, saying your web browser is better than IE is like saying your songwriter is better than Rebecca Black's. :P

      P.S.
      It's an XP box at least. :)

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    15. Re:Maybe I should try this by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      I believe you win.

    16. Re:Maybe I should try this by OffaMyLawn · · Score: 1

      This is exactly what my company is doing. My HP Elitebook 8730w is running an XP image until everyone is satisfied that rolling out Windows 7 isn't a bad thing.

    17. Re:Maybe I should try this by mikechant · · Score: 2

      with XP support ending some time next year.

      2014 actually.

      http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/search/default.aspx?alpha=Windows+XP

    18. Re:Maybe I should try this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are lies, damn lies, and Vista.

    19. Re:Maybe I should try this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Windows Me was rock stable.

    20. Re:Maybe I should try this by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      Running Ubuntu, but on a Pentium 4 HT with only 2 GB RAM. 3 GHz, but still just a Pentium 4. Last upgrade I got was the second GB of RAM so it could run Ubuntu.

      No root access.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    21. Re:Maybe I should try this by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      And NASA does not need any more money.... Dick Cheney needs to go hunting with most of the senators.... birdshot in the face might wake them up.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    22. Re:Maybe I should try this by compro01 · · Score: 1

      When I worked for the provincial government, 2 systems were run on VAXes running openVMS and they upgraded one to a new Alphaserver while I was there. Not the prettiest system, but damn they were reliable. The only thing they had with better uptime was the z-series mainframe.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    23. Re:Maybe I should try this by Methuseus · · Score: 1

      I think the parent poster may have meant support in his or her enterprise. Or else maybe it was an old expiration date remembered. They have changed the end of life date a few times already.

      --
      Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
    24. Re:Maybe I should try this by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      Not on my workstation, but I still support OS/2 and Win 3.1 machines. Also some ancient DEC systems.

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    25. Re:Maybe I should try this by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      then here's an anecdote for you

      Vista runs like a pig on my GFs machine (quad core phenom II with 8gb ram). Windows 7 runs far more acceptable

      Still nothing compared to my dual core athlon 7750 with Fedora, but to be fair, that machine has an SSD in it

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    26. Re:Maybe I should try this by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      google for portable firefox, no instal needed, but you do get full blown firefox, including stuff like firebug

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    27. Re:Maybe I should try this by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      You are out of your mind. Vista SP2 is light-years ahead of Vista, but it's all a buggy pile of shit. Windows 7 is the first "usable" edition of windows since XP, and it's generally being migrated two not necessarily because it is more stable, but simply because the new feature benefits outweigh the loss in reliability vs. XP. The UAC issue is still a leader in irritations and annoyances with any modern windows, and while I totally agree with the premise for it (being a linux user), it is still horribly implemented.

      But even in Vista SP2 I have periodic crashes to desktop, my video card driver UMDF portion periodically fails and resets itself, some USB devices cause erratic behavior (particularly on resume from S3), I've all but given up on sound drivers for Sigmatel based chips, there are lots of drivers none of them work, and it's often not the driver that is failing so much as the reworked sound system in Vista. Microsoft needs to flog each and every person involved with Vista, and then reflog each tier of management at least once per level above individual contributor.

    28. Re:Maybe I should try this by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      Assuming that's true (and I have my doubts), you're doing something horribly wrong. I ran Vista on a mere Athlon 64, with 2 GB of ram, and it worked great.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    29. Re:Maybe I should try this by overlordofmu · · Score: 1

      I am not IT. I am a developer. I used to be IT and still get tapped as my employer is an adversting firm and IT is stretched so thin you can see through them (I am so glad to be out of IT, even if I still do the work when the office manager knocks on my door).

      This is the issue the office manager had with his Windows 7 Pro laptop from a huge PC manufacturer (one of the 5 largest): When he tried to copy files from the network share to his local drive the machine locked up. It didn't lock up with file copies from the NAS but it did with copies from the Windows 2003 Server fileserver. Try to copy and the laptop froze. Locked up hard. Stopped responding to network pings. Wouldn't respond to keyboard or mouse. No blue screen, just frozen. Nothing in the system logs. Died and died hard.

      The problem turned out to be that the network card was set to auto-detect the network speed. Despite the switch being 100Mbps, the gigabit card in the laptop was auto-detecting 1Gbps. Yes, we are still on 100Mbps in the office. Did I mention IT doesn't get the funding it should? I digress. Network file coping worked fine for every server but that one Windows 2003 fileserver. Browsing the share worked. You could look at any directory (sorry - it's folder for Window's isn't it). Pardon, me. You could look into any folder but the second you tried to copy a file Windows shit itself.

      The fix? Manually set the network card speed to 100Mbps and "voila"! It worked. Fucking Windows. The day I no longer have to trouble-shoot the black-box, no-log-info, application-has-no-debug-mode, god-only-knows-why-it-won't-run Windows will be a day I will celibrate with wild abandon.

      One last question: Why is the only video that Power Point will play without issue MPEG-1? Not WMV. Not MPEG-2. Just MPEG-1. And this is office 2007 I am talking about. Why won't it play video formats any newer than 1995? Having been paid to support Microsoft software, I have learned to hate said software with a passion normally reserved for bad drivers.

    30. Re:Maybe I should try this by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Well Blockbuster (I am not under a NDA) when they chose to use Alpha and VMS probably made a good decision at the time. At the time the choices were Dec, Sun, IBM, SCO, and Microsoft, Linux wasn't known to fully Enterprise ready at the time. (Blockbuster and RedHat went IPO on the same day) Sun, and IBM were quite expensive Dec and SCO were the Middle ground and MS was conidered the low end. Alphas performed better then PC's so all in all it was a good choice. Even after Digital -> Compaq -> HP There stuff seemed to work quite well. Saving the viruses and issues that plagued Microsoft in the Early 2000's

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    31. Re:Maybe I should try this by emurphy42 · · Score: 1

      Just this past weekend, I moved some stuff off an old Windows 98 workstation at a client. I'm pretty sure the user hadn't been performing percussive maintenance... Also upgraded the primary application software (for the first time since 2005 or so) and a few custom reports (dating back to the pre-Crystal Reports era).

    32. Re:Maybe I should try this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds to me like that VAX and the code running on it has been safely putting those missiles into space for decades but sure just go ahead and replace it with something new for no good reason what could possibly go wrong?

      I am all for replacing a tool if its worn out and won't work any more or if a new tool could do the job better or make possible something you could not do before. If there are real deficiencies with the launch control and operation of those rockets that could be addressed by using something newer than that VAX by all means replace it, but don't just go and try to fix something that ain't broken intern.

    33. Re:Maybe I should try this by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2

      They DO have a good reason to replace it. They don't have the capability to maintain or repair it. They don't have an inventory of spares. It's literally a mission-critical part.

      Even if they keep using it for the time being, they need to develop an alternative (or acquire spares).

      What would have happened if there WASN'T a spare at the museum, or if no one remembered it was there?

      Sometimes you need to replace a part that works fine because you don't have the capability to handle a situation where that part no longer works fine.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    34. Re:Maybe I should try this by Bai+jie · · Score: 2

      Most of the time I'd agree with the above statement, but when NOBODY knows how the damn thing works and its part of a vital system, it may be time to replace it with a system that can be maintained by the current staff.

    35. Re:Maybe I should try this by Zeek40 · · Score: 2

      Here's another good reason to replace it, those VAX systems have maintenance contracts that cost $10k each per year, and there are about 50 of them in a room running different pieces of software needed for the launch. That's $500k a year on fucking maintenance contracts for hardware that has less total processing power, storage, and memory than my cellphone, and consumes more power than a small welding shop.

    36. Re:Maybe I should try this by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

      Power Point? god

      I can only assume because at some point during its development, some big wig manager in love with power point wandered through the office and said "MPEG-2? BUT I ONLY WANT ONE IN THERE! GET RID OF THAT EXTRA ONE!"

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    37. Re:Maybe I should try this by Kreigaffe · · Score: 3, Funny

      That is both the most awesome and awful thing I have ever heard

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    38. Re:Maybe I should try this by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      I suppose I could take an alternate route like that; thanks for pointing it out, but I found it to be a happy accident in the sense that it made me get aorund to givign Chrome a try.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    39. Re:Maybe I should try this by MadChicken · · Score: 1

      May I suggest that at the 80,000 user level you're not seeing the issues individual users may be going through? I'm sure at that scale you probably have closely managed systems with mostly homogeneous platforms. With that kind of platform to run on, yeah even ME would probably work fine.

      --
      SYS 64738 NO CARRIER
    40. Re:Maybe I should try this by treeves · · Score: 1

      That's also what we're doing where I work. Just starting to go to Windows 7 now from XP. I'm still on XP.
      Probably will upgrade a home PC (my wife uses mainly) from Vista to 7 soon. I have disliked Vista.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    41. Re:Maybe I should try this by isopropanol · · Score: 1

      Choosing Alphas in 1995-ish was a good decision... not upgrading since then is dubious.

    42. Re:Maybe I should try this by Noitatsidem · · Score: 1

      I think some of us have different definitions of great. For me "great > tolerable" is a solid rule that has never been broken, for you it seems the rule is "great >= tolerable."

      --
      Feel free to mod me down, just know that unlike some Anonymous Cowards I'm not afraid to express my views as myself.
    43. Re:Maybe I should try this by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      No, "great" means "great". It doesn't mean that it ran barely tolerably, it ran great. Superbly. As well as it is possible to run.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
  2. 1000 years from now by Krau+Ming · · Score: 0

    there will be towers of old crappy laptops like the garbage in Wall-e.

    1. Re:1000 years from now by ubrgeek · · Score: 2

      And all of them will still have personally identifiable information that was accidentally left on the hard drives.

      --
      Bark less. Wag more.
    2. Re:1000 years from now by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Accidentally means they did not mean to. 90% of the people out there don't even try to remove the information.

      I never connect Apathy with accidental... They chose to be lazy and ignorant, it was on purpose.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    3. Re:1000 years from now by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      i'd define 'accidental' if the user deletes the information with "rm -rf /" or thows everything in the trash can, followed by an "empty trash" but the informations remains there.

      fact is, most OSes don't actually wipe the data, they just remove the entry in the directory/clear the inodes. the data blocks remain intact until they're overwritten.

      one more thing i miss from OS/2 warp, it had a conveniently placed "shredder" that actually wiped the data blocks.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
  3. Never underestimate the power of liquids by grapeape · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I worked in a office where about once a year one of the employees would "spill" coffee on her laptop..usually a week or so after she noticed a deployment of new laptops in some other department. It worked until she moved to a floor with security camera's and was caught...after that her replacement was the one that recieved a shiny new one. The sad part was the machines she had were never out of date they simply became bogged down because of her browsing and installing habits, but rather than ask to have it cleaned up or god forbit learn to do it herself she would just have an "accident".

    1. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2

      installing habits

      You give your users admin rights? No wonder things are screwed up. We used to do that with our investigator laptops (I work for a government agency which deals with enforcement).

      When we did our equipment replacement, we removed their admin rights. Amazingly we have had zero problems since that time. Correlation = causation in this case.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    2. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by FooGoddess · · Score: 2

      I worked in a office where about once a year one of the employees would "spill" coffee on her laptop..usually a week or so after she noticed a deployment of new laptops in some other department. [...]

      This ruse doesn't work on ThinkPads. Co-worker spilled an entire litre of water directly onto the keyboard of a company owned running laptop. Hell to pay if laptop ruined. Unplug, pull out battery, pull disk drive, dry face-down on cookie rack for 24 hours. Reassemble, reboot. Laptop worked for another 18 months. IT department never knew.

    3. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by daid303 · · Score: 1

      My dad "accidentally" dropped his phone into a cup of coffee, because it kept disconnecting calls and turning itself off without reason. IT looked at it a few times for him, but they couldn't replace it because "it was still working"

      After this he got a shiny new one, with worked perfectly.

    4. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by peragrin · · Score: 1, Informative

      that's the real trick, if Windows had and enforced proper user/system separation then companies could lock down the systems that would limit that crap.

      Windows and it's applications assume you have full admin rights all the time. UAC while bad was a good step MSFT should have just pressed harder program developers to code properly, and forced all XP programs into a hard lock down mode.

      breaking easy backward compatiblity in the name of security isn't a bad thing.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    5. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Moryath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Try working in most actual business environments.

      The argument always goes back and forth like this:

      IT Side - we have the following reasons that normal users shouldn't be installing programs themselves.
      - Security risk of adware/malware/bundleware
      - Number of incidents where machines have been compromised.
      - Number of incidents where complaints of "my machine is slow" turn out to be the result of user filling drive up with crap

      User side -
      - "But it takes more than 5 minutes for them to come down and install (program X that's actually work related) for me." Nevermind that these installs happen maybe once per year and if they would bother SCHEDULING with us...
      - "But I want to try out (program y) to see if we can use it in the business..."
      - User happens to be the PHB's son or is fucking the PHB on the side.

      Brain-dead PHB side-
      - "My employees are complaining that you IT guys are getting in the way of their work! Fix it so they can install things!"
      - One month later: "Megan's machine got infected again. Why the hell aren't you IT guys stopping this from happening? Do whatever it takes to stop this from happening again!"
      - One more month later: "Megan's complaining you took away her install rights! I need her to be working as best as possible, give them back to her! She can't possibly cause problems with that!"

      Now add in that you might be working in an EDUCATION environment - where every tenured faculty member is also a brain-dead PHB.

    6. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by isama · · Score: 0

      i did that with a large mug of coffee at my internship. on a macbook pro. damn, I've never ripped out a laptop battery that fast!

    7. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      User side - But it takes more than 2 months for them to come down and install program X that I need to finish this job that's due in 2 weeks.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    8. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      Try working in most actual business environments.

      Apparently working for an organization with over $1 billion in sales (we work both sides of the equation) and 3K users isn't considered a real business environment.

      We've heard all the above excuses and the answer has been: Tough. You have to justify why you need something installed and if it is approved we will work with them to arrange a time for the installation.

      Users don't ask to have things installed because they already have everything they need. It is only in unusual cases, someone moving to a different job, that we need to install additional software.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    9. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by breakfastpirate · · Score: 1

      I thought the standard process for ThinkPads in a spill was to leave them facing right-side up. I think the drains in the keyboard are built to work assuming that the laptop is in a normal orientation. I'll have to consult my manual again...

    10. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Well, it is your job to ensure maximum efficiency for the user at the same time ensuring maximum security for the systems. Not sure why you IT types bitch about this so much.

    11. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by MoonBuggy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't doubt that what you say is accurate, but I'm amazed it's still socially acceptable for people to be unable to use the basic technology we interact with every day. A person who needs to drive a company vehicle as part of their job would be out pretty quickly if they kept crashing into trees - sure, the occasional genuine accident happens, and will be overlooked, but negligence/stupidity/repeated incompetence will (rightly) get you fired. There's absolutely no reason that the same shouldn't apply to people using company computers.

    12. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by grapeape · · Score: 1

      I wanted global policies but was overruled by management that decided the ability to play solitaire and converse over AIM was far more important that spyware, and employees wasting time.

    13. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Microlith · · Score: 1

      You have to justify why you need something installed and if it is approved we will work with them to arrange a time for the installation.

      Users don't ask to have things installed because they already have everything they need.

      I take it that your users consist exclusively of the types who use only Office and make phone calls and powerpoint presentations all day.

    14. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by jimicus · · Score: 1

      You should count yourself fantastically lucky.

      Now whether it's because you work for a reasonably large organisation (where if you were to give everyone admin rights, you'd need to triple the size of the IT department just to keep up with all the PC reimaging) or you're just working for an organisation that understands that while IT is a tool, it's a tool you have to use properly I'm not sure.

      The great majority of businesses either aren't that large or don't appreciate that, and as a result you get horror stories like you're reading here.

      (This is before we even start to discuss ISVs, who seem to have some sort of morbid fascination with giving their own developers admin rights and rather than insisting on writing software properly, instead settle for a line in the instruction manual to the effect of "this software requires admin rights to function")

    15. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Cato · · Score: 1

      Not true of all ThinkPads sadly - I had a ThinkPad 755 (486-based) that perished due to a flood of water coming down from the ceiling onto the keyboard.

      In my first ever programming job, I spilt coffee into a disk drive - fortunately it was the drive for a 10 MB removable disk called a DEC RL02, which had been cunningly designed to route liquids around the outside and onto the floor - no damage done. (Such 10 MB disks were the height of technology at the time...)

    16. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by captbob2002 · · Score: 1

      Amen.

    17. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by chainsaw1 · · Score: 1

      Make the browser an application that runs via Citrix / X11 server from another machine. Wipe said machine routinely. Use for all employees.

      If they genuinely need to download files from the web to their local machine, this still gives some space for scanning / auditing what gets moved from the browser machine to the local machine.

      --
      - Sig
    18. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try working in most actual business environments.

      The argument always goes back and forth like this:

      [...]

      Now add in that you might be working in an EDUCATION environment - where every tenured faculty member is also a brain-dead PHB.

      Have a separate admin-level account (either local or domain-based) for that purpose. Their day-to-day should be low-level. This is much easier to on Windows with UAC nowadays, as well as on Mac OS X and Linux (sudo).

      That's generally the best compromise that can be done AFAICT.

    19. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by DarthBart · · Score: 1

      Is there anything more? Other than developers needing dev tools, I'd say that probably 80% of the office mice in the world need a web browser, an office suite, and an email client.

    20. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Arkham · · Score: 1

      5 minutes to come down and install (program X that's actually work related) for me? Try a week and a half, if you're lucky. Wait, my software development IDE is not on the "approved list", even though it's the defacto standard for the work I do? Oh, you want to install Silverlight on my computer, even though I don't want, need, or use it? Hmm, it's seems I accidentally formatted the hard drive and installed Ubuntu. Oops.

      --
      - Vincit qui patitur.
    21. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try working in most actual business environments.

      The argument always goes back and forth like this:

      IT Side - we have the following reasons that normal users shouldn't be installing programs themselves.
      - Security risk of adware/malware/bundleware
      - Number of incidents where machines have been compromised.
      - Number of incidents where complaints of "my machine is slow" turn out to be the result of user filling drive up with crap

      User side -
      - "But it takes more than 5 minutes for them to come down and install (program X that's actually work related) for me." Nevermind that these installs happen maybe once per year and if they would bother SCHEDULING with us...
      - "But I want to try out (program y) to see if we can use it in the business..."
      - User happens to be the PHB's son or is fucking the PHB on the side.

      Brain-dead PHB side-
      - "My employees are complaining that you IT guys are getting in the way of their work! Fix it so they can install things!"
      - One month later: "Megan's machine got infected again. Why the hell aren't you IT guys stopping this from happening? Do whatever it takes to stop this from happening again!"
      - One more month later: "Megan's complaining you took away her install rights! I need her to be working as best as possible, give them back to her! She can't possibly cause problems with that!"

      Now add in that you might be working in an EDUCATION environment - where every tenured faculty member is also a brain-dead PHB.

      WTF is a PHB?

    22. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by g00head · · Score: 2

      Network Admin at a $1B company - all users locked down to User rights only, including the 3 private owners and their various family members employed by the company.

      It's not whether your company is an 'actual business environment' or a smaller strip-mall style office, it's whether the owners/CxO's/BoD can be made to understand the detrimental effects of giving users unrestricted access to their systems, as well has having an IT Manager/CTO that can explain the dangers to them in non-IT terms.

      It helps as well to have a base image for job types: Most workers get the base XP SP3 with Office 2k7, then we install SAP if they need it for their specific job. For the Engineers/QA, we have another image that also includes Visio among others, then install any specific apps they may need like Solidworks or CAD. We also have a large contingent of Mac users, and that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but we're working on very stringent standards on those non-enterprise nightmares (at least in a primarily Windows business environment).

      --
      "I'd make a wooshing sound, but the post was so far over your head it was inaudible..."
    23. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Kjella · · Score: 1

      I've worked with many 250-1000 employee organizations, a few that were 10-100k total and never met a place yet that gave everyone admin rights. Probably the closest was one place that gave everyone in IT admin rights - developers, DBAs, server admins, desktop support didn't matter - with the message: You work in IT. You should know how to manage your own desktop. Mess it up and we will reimage it but we won't support it. Another had a development network where everyone was admin, completely zoned off network and separate PCs though.

      The only real difference is how difficult it was to get something installed. The best had an extensive software catalog or otherwise a quick remote admin job to install it, with no real hassle - they just wanted control over what was installed for documentation and license control. The worst... pray that you never meet them. Unless you can bill them for it, apparently that goes off another budget.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    24. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - User happens to be the PHB's son or is fucking the PHB on the side.

      Or both. You never can tell with those pointy-hair types.

    25. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is a +1 insightful, properly earned in spite of the overly used car to computer analogies =)

    26. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      - "But it takes more than 5 minutes for them to come down and install (program X that's actually work related) for me." Nevermind that these installs happen maybe once per year and if they would bother SCHEDULING with us...

      You lose all credibility with that one. If all it took was a phone call and 5 minutes later, software would be installed, few people would mind. You know as well as everyone else that waiting months is not uncommon, and that is if the software EVER gets installed. In fact you make it clear that you wouldn't do the installs in 5 minutes with this:

      - Number of incidents where complaints of "my machine is slow" turn out to be the result of user filling drive up with crap

      I have heard tell that there are businesses that actually use imagining software so that if your machine has a problem, you can initiate a clean install back to the corporate approved image right from the desktop. This way, the users can install the software they need (or even want), and if something goes wrong, it takes less than 5 minutes to start the re-imaging of their system. I have yet to personally see one of these companies. They seem to be a fairy tail of wondrous fantasy though. Every single company I have been in has administrators that either let the users install what they want and the user has to permanently deal with the results, locks everything down, and the users have a poor work experience, often not being prevented from doing their jobs, or a combination of the two, where the Admins let the users install what they want unless they are looking to punish the user in a brow beating measure.

      The ironic part about the 'lock everything down' admins are that the whole reason that they have jobs is because the mainframe admins kept everything locked down, so people started using their own personal computers to get around the lock downs in the mainframe so they could get their jobs done.

    27. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      installing habits

      You give your users admin rights? No wonder things are screwed up. We used to do that with our investigator laptops (I work for a government agency which deals with enforcement).

      When we did our equipment replacement, we removed their admin rights. Amazingly we have had zero problems since that time. Correlation = causation in this case.

      Thank god for portable apps, or people like you would be forcing me to browse Slashdot in IE7!

    28. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 2

      Let this myth die please. You can run XP easily as a Limited User, I've been doing it for years. Any comptent IT person should be able to set up a Limited User Account so that the user can do his/her tasks. I actually find the implementation of XP better than in Vista/7 because you get "access denied" and that's it. Under Vista/7 you get a username/password prompt which hints to the user he could do something (which she/he can't, but the dialog suggests it). With "access denied", they'll call you and you can either tell them they're doing stuff they shouldn't or go over and fix the problem. In all these years, of setting up XP/Limited, the latter rarely happened because I try to foresee all use-cases for the user.

    29. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Culture20 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      that's the real trick, if Windows had and enforced proper user/system separation then companies could lock down the systems that would limit that crap. Windows and it's applications assume you have full admin rights all the time. UAC while bad was a good step MSFT should have just pressed harder program developers to code properly, and forced all XP programs into a hard lock down mode.

      Are you from 1999? Software developers stopped assuming users have admin access a few years after XP hit the scene. It's only rare medical of scientific control software that's written that stupidly anymore. And guess what? There is specialty scientific software for Linux out there that assumes you're root.
      And windows is easy to segregate admin access on desktops either manually or via GPO. You can even list admin users additively or destructively(replacing the current list, preventing admins from adding someone else as an admin).

    30. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by drsmithy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      that's the real trick, if Windows had and enforced proper user/system separation [...]

      It has had for nearly twenty years. Fifteen if you only want to start counting from NT4. The problem isn't the lack of OS capability.

      breaking easy backward compatiblity in the name of security isn't a bad thing.

      Apparently it is. Just look at the negative commentary in Slashdot about UAC, from people who should know better.

    31. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Have a separate admin-level account (either local or domain-based) for that purpose. Their day-to-day should be low-level. This is much easier to on Windows with UAC nowadays, as well as on Mac OS X and Linux (sudo).

      The admin account quickly becomes the day-to-day account and they forget the password to the non-admin one. They don't care about security. Security restricts freedom.

    32. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by RogerWilco · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but if you do need anything more, it's a half year long struggle to get it.

      I really tried with Excel, but it only goes sofar.

      And even then manipulating 2 GB Excel files on a machine with 512MB RAM was a pain, but I couldn't convince my boss I needed more RAM, even though my inability to perform certain calculations in a timely manner was costing the company millions. He needed to have an exact answer how much money we would save to do de € 50 investment. A ballpark figure of "at least several million" wasn't enough for him.

      I was so happy to leave there.

      --
      RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
    33. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by itsdapead · · Score: 1

      Now add in that you might be working in an EDUCATION environment - where every tenured faculty member is also a brain-dead PHB.

      ...and who maybe, just maybe, knows more than you do about what their job involves and what software/hardware they need to do it properly. Try working on a sequence of externally funded research projects sometime, and see if you can predict what software/hardware you'll need in 6 months time (and even if you can, you can't SCHEDULE it because the funders are still crossing the 'i's and dotting the 't's on the contract and you won't actually be able to authorize any spending against the project until a week before the first report is due...)

      Of course, you could try implementing this system.

      Yes, I've worked on the other side of the fence and spent my time on the helldesk. Yes, clueless PHB users happen. So does useless IT support with one-size-fits-nobody policies and no concept of providing a service. If you don't generalize, then neither will I.

      Plus, YMMV, but in many educational institutions "tenure" is now a long-lost memory.

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
    34. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by RogerWilco · · Score: 1

      Because to most people computers are like magic. Especially the older generation in upper management.

      --
      RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
    35. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      Yeah... its a pity that you can't add Solitaire and AIM to global policies. Then everyone would have been happy. Maybe in 2012 they'll figure out that technology.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    36. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      Solitaire and AIM are not the problem...it's the people that are the problem.

      I often play a game or two of solitaire while waiting for something to finish. Sure, I might be "wasting" time, but I almost never could do anything productive in that minute or two. But, if you have users who are playing solitaire for several hours straight, then there is no technical means that will keep them working the entire time they are in the office.

    37. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Flagondeep · · Score: 1

      I used to work for a public school division and your post is a perfect description of every day I went to work. We used Deep Freeze to keep people from screwing things up. I didn't care much for Deep Freeze, it had its issues, but it got the job done. We were ordered by the superintendent of the school board to disable it after she was emailed by every school principal that Deep Freeze needed to be turned off on all teacher/faculty machines - we did. Next Monday we had virus alerts, BSoDs, and complaints of general sluggishness all over the district. Of course, it was entirely our fault, and the necessity of the IT department was called into question at the next board meeting.

      A teacher who was known for drinking on the job (wasn't fired for five years because of tenure, but got canned one day when a special ed kid told the school cop she was acting funny and she failed a sobriety test) bellowed at me for a problem with her computer not turning on first thing in the morning. She shared the office with another teacher; turns out her roommate was turning off the power strip before she left in the evening. Again, my fault for not explaining that computers are electrical devices.

    38. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      Here is another side. Short of any vertical applications that are specialized a large company could switch to an all linux environment and gain additional advantages. OO.o is 100% useable in a company environment. Oracle runs under linux well so most of the accounting department will not notice a difference. The whiners that hate change will whine for about 2 weeks.

      Problem is most large companies get a sweet deal from Microsoft to ensure they dont do this. Microsoft sales guys for fortune 500 companies work really hard to program and FUD to death the CTO and other executives to keep that nasty evil hacker OS out of their company. There are companies that resist, but most roll over. They like the fact that they can have a idiot (I.E. master of business administration) maintain a department sharepoint webpage with microsoft word and Outlook instead of a nice webserver with a wordpress blog on it that is just as simple to maintain. They get the executives to drink deeply of the new sharepont coolaid and now they repeat it like a mantra. Yay yet another POS in the company that is based on closed and crappy standards so migration away is impossible.

      Luckily there are SOME companies that get it. I work for one after suffering with the typical "we love MS for no real reason" type for the past 14 years. Now I love how one IT staff can manage 50 to 100 pc's and laptops on his own. We deploy a IT guy per floor and per department that way they are experts in that departments needs. new app is easy to deploy across the board, new OS updates as well, and we can migrate a user to a new pc or laptop in minutes and everything is where they left it, the apps all are right with the settings. Even the wallpaper is correct. we have replaced 20 desktops over lunch before. they went to lunch and returned to new computers. Most did not notice until later that day or the next day when they looked under the desk and saw a silver tower instead of the black one. Cant do that with windows.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    39. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      When you do that here, under my command (I'm in charge of all the technology stuffs) you get the benefit of the doubt the first time. Accidents happen and we're pretty forgiving even though its clearly HER fault.

      The second time? Well you owe the company the money for the repairs to the laptop. You don't have to pay it, as clearly stated in your contract you can leave the company and we'll take it out of your last check for you.

      We don't have a problem with people breaking machines to get a new one.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    40. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Wimply thinkpads.... My panasonic toughbook lets me type while splashing away. Freaks out some people bad.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    41. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by BlueBlade · · Score: 1

      Not to nitpick, but you can configure the prompt option to fall back to the simple "Access denied" with a simple GPO change. Most workplaces find it useful though because you can have a tech go and just type the credentials if needed (useful for some shell functions where you can't use runas...)

      --
      Religion is the best example of mass psychosis
    42. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Methuseus · · Score: 1

      Two words: Medical apps

      a few more words: Badly coded apps

      The first is the worst, because you can't always migrate to something better.

      --
      Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
    43. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by g00head · · Score: 1

      I agree there are some things Apple got right, but only due to Linux being under the pretty hood - however, unless/until Linux/Apple have the equivalent of AD+GPOs, enterprise management will be a nightmare.

      --
      "I'd make a wooshing sound, but the post was so far over your head it was inaudible..."
    44. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by peragrin · · Score: 1

      I can't. I have several pieces of .NET software that not only require admin rights, but require one to boot into safe mode to install it, as the installer needs to bypass a bunch of other security precautions.

      This is random third party software made by one of our distributors to access a specialized product database. It shouldn't need such things. but try doing it without it and it causes all sorts of problems.

      So i can't fix it, and they don't bother because they are a multi-billion dollar company and don't care.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    45. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Moryath · · Score: 1

      If they are engineering or comp-sci professors? Okay, I can see your end.

      Now try dealing with the nightmare of IT that is Social Work, English, HRM... where you have essentially a bunch of 5-year-olds who've gotten through the tenure system and can't be removed for love or money, and have no idea of how to handle technology.

      Try to lock down campus ports? "OMG YOU STOPPED MY LIMEWIRE UNDO WHATEVER YOU DID RIGHT NOW I NEED IT FOR RESEARCH!"
      Try to not give them admin rights? See previous.
      Try to get them to change their password at least every 6 months and follow basic complexity requirements? "OMG YOU CAN'T DO THAT I CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO REMEMBER A NEW PASSWORD I WANT TO USE 'GOD' JUST LIKE I ALWAYS HAVE"

      Then again, these are the same assholes who cause HIPAA/FERPA violations all over the place by giving their grad students their login/pass to "do things for me." All of a sudden, the grad student has access to everything - gradebooks, confidential student data, the works. Maybe they don't do anything with it. Doesn't matter. IT gets reprimanded or fired if they find out the student has access and don't report it, whether the professor "trusts the grad student not to do anything wrong" or not.

    46. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by peragrin · · Score: 1

      I can name a half a dozen specialized business programs that only only assume admin, but also assume the win16 subsystem is present.

      I hate that software but I am forced to use it in order to do business with said companies. Since it works they won't spend money to upgrade it.

      Just remember businesses are always 10 years tech wise behind the cutting edge, unless forced not to be. It is one of the few reasons why i like apple dropping obsolete api's every 3-4 releases.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    47. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by rabbit994 · · Score: 1

      I run into software daily that doesn't handle no local Administrator rights well. Quickbooks is prime example. It will run without Admin rights until you try and do a certain thing. Then it barfs all over the place. It's possible to fix using Procmon and figuring out where it's trying to write and granting the proper permissions but you have to make that change to every PC that runs it and there is no guaranteeing that it will continue to work after an update. Also, there is many many LOB applications that companies have either not updated or developer/s doesn't care. I have Doctor office that runs newest software written in .Net that still R/W from ini in C:\Windows and I've been told has no intention of fixing that.

    48. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      Some people work for small companies where they expect their employees to be responsible about what they download. If I need to patch AutoCAD, or download and install some trial FEA software, I'm sure as hell not going to ask permission first. They expect me to do a job and acquire the tools I need to do that job. I even have to change my network settings based on what PLC system I'm talking to. Hell, our helpdesk thinks that Spybot S&D is malware, and they deleted my hosts file. So I really don't like them remoting into my machine.

    49. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by NekSnappa · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I work in the graphics shop of a defense contractor, and can't tell you how often we get in piece of equipment where the software that drives the thing requires admin rights for no apparent reason. Everything from disc duplicators, to a pneumatic driven matt cutter. Utter nonsense!

      To make matters worse our IT dept. has a no admin rights policy in effect, so those machines that require admin rights have to run with a script that uses the help desk login no matter who is logged onto the machine. So when somebody leaves the help desk team and they change that password our machine is useless until they come down and do a reset. Total PITA.

      --
      I want to shoot the messenger!
    50. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We had a guy whose Blackberry would "break" about once a year. After a couple years, he even stopped trying to make it look like an accident. With the last one before I left you could see quite clearly that he just took a screwdriver and hammer to the glass.

    51. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Hultis · · Score: 0

      This. I really don't want to know how many times I've had to do terribly ugly workarounds because of it.

    52. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about when what is slowing down the computer is the crapware installed on it by the business themselves?
      Oh wait...this isn't the U.S. government.

    53. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by pablo_max · · Score: 1

      What a load of nonsense.
      Why do IT people insist that all other humans are retarded and cannot operate a computer?

      I'll tell you what. In my smallish company, out IT guys are CLUELESS. Nearly every computer is what I would consider to be unusable. Not mine though. I have never, not one time ever, allowed the IT person to touch my machine.
      When ever we go to a clients place for a presentation, we take my machine because it works. It is not locked down with stupid restrictions that an IT guys heard about in school.
      Basically, "most' people can use a computer well enough to take care of it without IT people F'ing it up.
      Then again, I have always worked in engineering firms.

    54. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IT side - If only the user hadn't waited until 2 hours before their project was due before requesting the software that takes 2 days just to get Purchasing to process the order request.

    55. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Moryath · · Score: 1

      For every one of you, there are a thousand brain-dead morons who cause problems.

      Yeah. It sucks to be you. And it sucks to know there are clueless IT people around.

      Oh and btw... "Then again, I have always worked in engineering firms."
      Now go around to a business that's primarily a bunch of construction jocks with 75-if-they're-lucky IQs.
      Now go around to a business that hires a bunch of marketing morons.
      Now go around to a business where your "managers" are managing department store floors.
      Now go around to a business where your "managers" are running grocery stores floors.
      Now go around to a business where your workers are spending most of their day making cold sales calls or "lead generation."
      Now go around to a business where your workers' primary task is scanning documents and data entry or processing.

      I guarantee you, you'll find one or two of you for every thousand people. You'll find about 300 who don't want to touch a computer. And you'll find 598-599 of them who THINK they know what they are doing around computers and are busy, if they manage to get install/admin rights on a machine, filling it up with a bunch of "ooh free crap hey bonzi buddy yay facebook virus ooh free screensaver of puppies" and then complaining to the IT crew that "omg my computer is slow can u fix it pls?" or worse yet, getting it actually infected with something downright malicious.

    56. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A Freetard from the past. We Welcome You and hope you can catch up soon.

    57. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Moryath · · Score: 1

      IT side 2 - if only the fucktard user hadn't then gone and pirated the software he wanted, causing us to be in the middle of a fucking BSA audit and further slowing us down since IT is busy going through the audit paperwork on top of all the stuff we need to do otherwise.

    58. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      I think the biggest complaint about UAC wasn't that it was implemented, but how it was implemented. The excessive prompting was obnoxious and trained people to just click allow every time. I know one time I attempted to create a new folder in the program files directory and received FOUR prompts (create the folder, set the name to "new folder", modify the folder, set the name to what I wanted). The entire action (which was initiated by me) only needed one prompt.

    59. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Moryath · · Score: 1

      Two words: Medical apps

      The medical world is a nightmare all its own. Nurses, doctors? Unable to cope with the most basic of technology unless they were specifically trained on it during their residency.

      Then there are all the nightmare apps for various medical machinery, which are often only sanctioned for very specific OS builds (I've seen a hospital with medical diagnostic machines still running on Win2k SP1 because if they updated to SP2 the application could no longer be certified to work correctly, but the company that made it which is long out of business so any hope of an update is laughable).

      Then there are all the federal medical-privacy regulations that have to apply ON TOP OF regular security for the machines. Data breaches under HIPAA are, in no uncertain terms, a Big Fucking Deal.

    60. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's quite common, there's just too much junk software out there that ASSuMEs the user has admin on the machine. For example, quickbooks will absolutely refuse to run at all if there is an update ready for it and the user doesn't have enough permissions to install it. It won't just put up a dialog saying it should be done ASAP, it will bring all business to a screeching halt until someone with permissions runs it to do the update. Shortly after, the office staff will be the ones screeching on the phone to IT.

    61. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "But it takes more than 5 minutes for them to come down and install (program X that's actually work related) for me." Nevermind that these installs happen maybe once per year and if they would bother SCHEDULING with us...

      You're distorting because of your bias. This may depend on the company, of course, but a hitting restrictions on a locked down desktop (permission errors, installations, etc.) is a pretty regular occurrence, and response times aren't on the order of 5 minutes by two orders of magnitude. It can take days or weeks, and then often needs to be redone because the IT guys assume they know what the user needs without bothering to listen to actual requirements.

    62. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2

      Are you from 1999? Software developers stopped assuming users have admin access a few years after XP hit the scene.

      Bullshit - unless you mean "sometime after right now" when you say "a few years after XP". There are still a lot of new programs which do not work properly w/o Admin rights.

      Hell, even MS Dynamics 2008 required Administrator rights to run (can't recall if it was local or domain , at the moment, but I do recall that allowing everyone access to run the program didn't do the trick).

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    63. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by sjames · · Score: 1

      Just last night, I saw on the news that the city of Atlanta couldn't seem to process some red light camera tickets, they claimed that the month long (and counting) issue was a "computer problem" as if that makes it all perfectly understandable and OK. I started thinking, if all the siding falls off of your house one sunny day, if the contractor says "sorry, I had a hammer problem" will you consider that perfectly acceptable, offer some words of sympathy and tell him to fix it whenever he can or will you tell him to get his lazy ass over right now and do his damned job properly?

      If someone drives down the highway in reverse because there's so many letters on the gear selector and they keep forgetting which one to use, do we say that's OK and remind them for the 25th time they want 'D' with a smile or do we make fun of them and suggest they be checked for senile dementia?

      If someone drives at 80 MPH through a subdivision because someone "cleverly" changed the 25 to an 88 with spray paint, do we all just understand their confusion or do they get a ticket?

      There is a tendency in IT to expect too much of users sometimes, but there's also a tendency amongst users to fail to live up to even minimal expectations.

    64. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      And for rare stupid programs like that, there's a "Run this program as an administrator" option. I hate using that option because people can choose to save files overwriting system dlls, but sometimes third party developers hard code stupid stuff. I just modified a Linux program from the NIH that essentially asked to be set up setuid root because the developer is a bio-scientist, not a programmer (it didn't actually ask for setuid, it just had all of its data files set to read-only for only one UID, and the test file directory was only root-writable, but the test program attempts to write files there, hard-coded; obviously I reset the permissions instead of resorting to a setuid root).

    65. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      And there's nothing wrong with being 10 years behind. If you're in a business then your job is to help make money; if you're in a non-profit then your job is to help save money. There's no reason to waste money by insisting on the bleeding edge or defending planned obsolescence.

    66. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by green1 · · Score: 1

      I'm a field tech for a telco. They tried giving us limited rights. luckily for me, it failed. As a limited user you can't set a static IP address, which makes troubleshooting and configuring various routers, bridges, and virtual WAN setups impossible.
      Limited users also can't do wireshark captures, another important troubleshooting tool... There were more issues, but I can't remember them all right now.

      So yes, SOME users can operate without admin rights. but not ALL users.

    67. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      What about realizing that IT is the service organization and that the user is usually a person creating revenue? Maybe some education is useful for the users, but never forget that IT is not in charge and that their job is not to make things easy for IT. A lot of these across-the-board policies fail to take into account that not every user is an identical clone who only needs Microsoft Office. Don't divide the world into "normal users" and "special smarter-than-average IT users". In my 30 years out in the working world, I've seen more screws up by IT staff than by users.

    68. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by ajlisows · · Score: 1

      This is so true. It is absolutely incredible to me how people can do things on a computer for 6 hours a day, 5 days a week for most of their lives and still have no idea how to properly operate their computer. Heck, I know plenty of them who do not know how to make a shortcut. It is one thing if Joe Schmoe keeps messing up the family computer....that is his problem. When he keeps messing up the corporate computers, that is a problem. Unfortunately a lot of those users have other skills relating to their actual job that would make them hard to replace.

      I cannot complain much. In the last year we've had five machines (out of around 100) majorly infected and four of those were machine by our outside sales/service staff who I have little to no control over. I mostly attribute this to my users being greatly interested in what I had to say after one of the more well liked individuals here ended up catching some type of infection and having her bank account drained (she did personal banking on her work laptop.) She did get all of her money back but with this happening to someone in the company everyone suddenly became interested in protecting their assets.

    69. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I actually had an IT guy close a software request ticket with "This ticket seems pretty old, I'm pretty sure he's gotten the license key by now".

    70. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I remember when I couldn't drive the forklift because I didn't have the training. Nowdays though, any fool with a Microsoft Certificate is allowed to tell me that I'm required to bring in my Mac to upgrade it to Windows 7 according to policy.

    71. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure you could legally enforce the paycheck deduction unless you could prove the destruction was willful. The computer is company property and was destroyed in the course of doing company business. If a company couch collapses you can't payroll-deduct the last guy who sat on it, even if they are overweight.

      Now, it would be different if this were a provide-you-own-tools shop of some kind. In that case employees provide their own laptops, and can perhaps tax-deduct its use, wear, destruction, etc. The company has nothing to do with the laptop, IT can't touch it, and if the employee breaks it, well they already bought it.

      IANAL...

    72. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      You lose all credibility with that one. If all it took was a phone call and 5 minutes later, software would be installed, few people would mind. You know as well as everyone else that waiting months is not uncommon, and that is if the software EVER gets installed. In fact you make it clear that you wouldn't do the installs in 5 minutes with this:

      Months? Where the hell does everyone work that this keeps being said? I DON'T know as well as everyone else that "waiting months is not uncommon," because it's never been true at any place I worked. If I regularly couldn't get around to an install within the week without really good reason, I'd be fired. Most installs happen the day they're requested, and if they don't the main reason is the user requests the delay to fit a quiet spot in their schedule.

    73. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Moryath · · Score: 1

      What about realizing that the mandate given to IT is schizophrenic?

      They are supposedly a "service organization."

      Their job is to "keep things running smoothly", "improve user productivity", and "Keep the company secure." And it's that LAST one that has major fucking legal ramifications for the company.

      Have some moron user let loose a keylogger behind the firewall from an infected USB stick? Guess what, the lawyers are going to be screaming to disable all USB flash drives. Have some moron user downloading porn or pirating software? Guess what happens next. Have some moron user not doing their job because they've installed 1001 "free games" or other little widgets? Guess what, we get called in and the PHB then screams to remove rights for all users.

      Right up until the point where we remove those same rights from the PHB and he can't jerk off to his porn in his private corner office anymore, or his secretary whines about how she can't open her IM windows anymore before she gives him his afternoon blowjob.

      never forget that IT is not in charge

      Which you promptly started doing. Most of the worst, most asinine policies don't come from IT, they come from the lawyers and the accountants and the PHBs.

      and that their job is not to make things easy for IT

      If you ever think IT has it "easy", you've never spent a day in their shoes. The reality is every single IT desk is understaffed, underappreciated, and beset by trying to figure out how to "accomplish" schizophrenic orders that demand they do contradictory things all at once.

      In my 30 years out in the working world, I've seen more screws up by IT staff than by users.

      Generic comment about kids getting off your lawn here, gramps.

      Now in the real world, I've seen the screwups by users outnumber screwups by IT, everywhere I go. IT are the ones getting to clean up the messes left by idiots who thought they knew what they were doing, right before they deleted something they shouldn't have, or downloaded and ok'ed something they shouldn't have, or tried to do something they shouldn't have.

      I kid you not, I had a user bitching about his laptop which "wouldn't run right" and corrupted a bunch of files. We finally got this asshole to bring it in, and his power line for the damn thing looked like a rat had been chewing on it. His response: "Oh yeah it sparked a couple times and it zapped me once. I guess that's not normal huh?"

    74. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      It's BSD under the hood :-)

    75. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by g00head · · Score: 1

      You got me, I should have said *nix under the hood :)

      --
      "I'd make a wooshing sound, but the post was so far over your head it was inaudible..."
    76. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      What about your Linux users? Do you force your programmers to use Visual Studio like some common serfs?

      I don't mind things being locked down when there's a good reason for it. A safe computer is nice. The problem is when IT has a one-size-fits-all approach, or when they act like they're in charge and even the CEO has relinquished ultimate power to them. It should be there to help the users and be a partner.

    77. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      And this attitude from IT is why they're generally distrusted by others. They've stopped being partners and instead are seen as speed bumps.

      Surprisingly, many of them actually are clueless. They learned everything they know from trade schools and Microsoft certification training classes. If it wasn't covered in the course work then they're stymied (and sometimes even if it was covered). To be fair a lot of reasons for this is because everyone wants to hire the cheapest people. The clueless users who mess things up and the clueless IT guys who mess things up all come about because management wants to hire interchangeable cogs in a machine.

    78. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      and can't tell you how often we get in piece of equipment where the software that drives the thing requires admin rights for no apparent reason. Everything from disc duplicators, to a pneumatic driven matt cutter. Utter nonsense!

      What the hardware vendor should really do is allow permissions to use the hardware to be allocated to users but afaict that is a lot of work so unfortunately most drivers end up defaulting to either wide open or admins only neither of which is ideal.

      To make matters worse our IT dept. has a no admin rights policy in effect, so those machines that require admin rights have to run with a script that uses the help desk login no matter who is logged onto the machine.

      That is just plain fucked up.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    79. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Not sure why you IT types bitch about this so much.

      Because unfortunately the two are mutally exclusive. Especially if IT are overworked (as they often are because they don't directly generate revenue) and the users are incompetant with computers.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    80. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by g00head · · Score: 1
      We have two Redhat admins that manage our few Linux servers (web and SAP) at the OS level - application level is handled by contractors or managed services providers.

      For all intents and purposes, we have no internal programming staff. If we need something modified from it's 'off the shelf' install, we'll bring in contractors.

      --
      "I'd make a wooshing sound, but the post was so far over your head it was inaudible..."
    81. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by St.Creed · · Score: 1

      I have heard tell that there are businesses that actually use imagining software so that if your machine has a problem, you can initiate a clean install back to the corporate approved image right from the desktop. This way, the users can install the software they need (or even want), and if something goes wrong, it takes less than 5 minutes to start the re-imaging of their system. I have yet to personally see one of these companies.

      Too bad. I worked at one for a long time. Good IT dept. Developers got local admin rights (and the note that they only got one form of support, which was a clean re-image). Everyone else that had trouble got a new computer off the racks, logged on, installation commenced and after lunchbreak they could start working again. Nowadays, more and more stuff is virtualized so even less difficult to do this.

      Seriously: IT-departments that don't virtualize, and don't centralize their software distribution, and don't get this right, are going to be too expensive to keep. If you are in such a department, make drastic changes fast because otherwise the company WILL outsource your job - because they have to.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    82. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Co-worker spilled an entire litre of water directly onto the keyboard of a company owned running laptop. Hell to pay if laptop ruined. Unplug, pull out battery, pull disk drive, dry face-down on cookie rack for 24 hours.

      So you spilt plain water on it and then did all the right things to maximise your chance of survival, no wonder it survived.

      If I wanted to (not that I would) fuck up a computer by "accidently" spilling a drink on it I wouldn't chose plain water. I'd chose something sticky and acidic like coca-cola. I would also pretend not to know how best to deal with the situation.

      If you do end up spilling something like coca-cola, fruit juice, coffee etc into an electronic device I'd reccomend rinsing it under the tap ASAP (after removing power/batteries/hdds etc). Distilled water would probablly be better than tap water but isn't likely to be available quickly and in sufficiant quantities. Time is of the essense because once the drink dries into a sticky mess it is likely to be much harder to rinse off.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    83. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > And there's nothing wrong with being 10 years behind.

      Often, there is MUCH wrong with being 10 years behind. At the very least, it can put you in a position where you're extremely dependent on an increasingly brittle system with decreasingly available support - pretty much playing chicken with fate, since when it does eventually break, it'll be catastrophic.

      And even being that nice assumes that the system does actually work correctly, rather than being surrounded with a crust of band-aids and workarounds due to its deficiencies. Depending on the structure of the business, a lot of places are saying "but it still works!" out of one side of their mouth; meanwhile, they're paying a small fortune each year to keep finessing it back into a barely-running state that causes the rest of the company constant problems. They'll delay fixing it until decades after the additional maintenance overhead surpassed what the replacement cost would have been.

    84. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by awyeah · · Score: 1

      You give your users admin rights? No wonder things are screwed up.

      I like the arrangement I have with my IT department. I get admin rights... in return I ask them for nothing more than hardware fixing and the occasional re-imaging of the machine. Too bad that can't work for everyone.

      --
      Why, no, I haven't meta-moderated lately. Thanks for asking!
    85. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by itsdapead · · Score: 1

      If they are engineering or comp-sci professors? Okay, I can see your end.

      Yup, because nobody outside engineering and comp sci needs anything other than Office... Education departments never develop - or even review/evaluate teaching applets, Social Science departments don't do research into "the effectiveness of social networking for X". Geography departments never find themselves with a need for specialist mapping software. The Arts departments never need some specialist software for scriptwriting, music scoring or 3D imaging software (and, if they do, they can get the geeks in the IT department to evaluate the alternatives for them) and the math department never does anything that the renaissance men in the IT department can't second guess... and nobody, but nobody doing research ever wants to use a specialist statistics test not covered by SPSS - or, for that matter, ever find a new avenue for research.

      If you work for IT in a bank, or car sales firm, or sprocket flange manufacturer then maybe you can reasonably assume that a sub-assistant-sales manager needs Email, WP and sub-assistant-sales-manager-level access to the intranet (I say "maybe" because I've never been a sub-assistant sales manager so I'd want to talk to a few before making that definite). If you try to apply that sort of model to a moderate sized university, it won't work. A University IT service needs to think more like a (good) internet service provider.

      DIsclaimer: most IT support people I've had the pleasure of dealing with have been responsive, constructive, knowledgable and helpful (provided you can wade through the system to get to them and their hands aren't tied).

      Doesn't matter. IT gets reprimanded or fired if they find out the student has access and don't report it, whether the professor "trusts the grad student not to do anything wrong" or not.

      Grad students traditionally act as assistants to professors - I take it your security model takes this into account and provides a safe, yet workable mechanism for making sure they can do this without also letting them into the student records? And if your management doesn't support you in disputes with the awkward squad then you're complaining about the wrong people.

      OK, I'm off to explain to IT why I need access to Minecraft for serious research purposes :-)

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
    86. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      There's lots of stuff that will want to write to "Program Files" which you don't want a limited user account to be able to do.

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    87. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by YggdrasilOS · · Score: 1

      Most of the venom surrounding UAC is directed at the pants-on-head-retarded implementation, not the idea. UAC is MS's cack-handed attempt to re-invent sudo. Unlike sudo, UAC doesn't prompt you for an admin password by default—bad. Unlike sudo, UAC doesn't offer the option to remember your credentials for a preset period so you don't have to keep swatting it down mid-task—bad. Unlike sudo, UAC doesn't log commands issued through it by default, or even offer an option to do so—terribad. This is one place where even Apple culti^H^H^H^H^Henthusiasts wouldn't complain if MS just copied them straight up, as it would actually do a bit to improve the state of things. Faced with this seemingly simple choice though, MS contracted an acute case of NIH-itis and regurgitated this mess upon us.

      tl;dr - we bitch about UAC because we do know better.

      --
      "We dwell within a silent country, beyond the reach of time and death" -Nothing Sophotech, The Golden Transcendence
    88. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, many people can still do large portions of the job without a computer, or can, at least either "live without" one for a day or two or work from a lesser "spare". The same cannot be said of trucks and keeping spares of heavy equipment is normally not practiced by many companies.

    89. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Jerrry · · Score: 1

      G00head: What company do you work for? I want to make sure I never apply for a job there.

    90. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Moryath · · Score: 1

      Grad students traditionally act as assistants to professors - I take it your security model takes this into account and provides a safe, yet workable mechanism for making sure they can do this without also letting them into the student records?

      Actually, it does. The professors are just being lazy and think that "letting my grad student use my computer and my profile" is "easier" (read: lazier) than actually putting documents into the area the students are allowed into.

      If you try to apply that sort of model to a moderate sized university, it won't work. A University IT service needs to think more like a (good) internet service provider.

      Funny thing: if you give the users unlimited install rights, you end up reimaging 50% of the campus computers every semester.

    91. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You left one out from the IT/business side - it can cost us a lot of money if we get audited and are found to be running software we don't have licenses for.

    92. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by NateTech · · Score: 1

      You just nailed the solution, and maybe didn't even realize it.

      "This laptop is yours to take care of. If you surf around and get a virus infection, the time spent cleaning it up by our IT department will be deducted from your paycheck."

      Sounds wacky, but it would seriously work. Tie bad behavior to people's wallets, and they'll figure out amazing solutions to not do that bad behavior... OR... they'll invest in their own bare-metal backup/recovery system and fix their own problems.

      The fact is -- we treat IT like computers are still new and people are still going to "keyboarding" classes to learn to stop writing and start typing. Most folks would be a lot more motivated if they were monetarily responsible for damage they cause.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    93. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by NateTech · · Score: 1

      Also at a $1B company. IT Department has kept up with behind the scenes proxy tech, including interception of inbound/outbound mail ports, even SSL (keys don't match... man-in-the-middle attack, basically) and almost everyone in the technical services division (at least 1000 people) have local Admin rights.

      Haven't had a significant virus outbreak beyond a single machine or a couple of machines in eight years.

      Malware, etc... everything's proxied. They oversee all, and monitor all.

      The religion of "lockdown" yields good results, but not hiring morons -- while still watching, knowing, and actively intruding on your network traffic, yields even better results.

      Sometimes I believe "lockdown" culture comes from a need for someone to feel "important". If it's really important, watch it all -- "lockdown" isn't going to stop as much as just knowing exactly what machines are talking to others, what they're sending, and proxying everything.

      I've had a list of 20-25 applications that get installed (by myself) after any new "image" gets dropped on my desk. If I were in the "lockdown" environment, I could cost and time justify each and every one as part of the "image" for my job role.

      I'm sure there are some groups/departments that are in "lockdown", but not ours.

      Oh and yes... they do run inventory software on all the machines, and know what's installed. So yeah... we all know that and don't install stupid non-work-related crap, because we know that's also being monitored.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    94. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      You'd think so, eh? Look into the "Network Configuration Operators" group. Case closed.

    95. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      I must admit having next to no Vista/7 experience and didn't need to look into the issue yet. To thanks for pointing it out.

    96. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      My experience says that misbehaving applications can be made to be run as limited user. Usually, it's a matter of allowing User R/W access to certain directories (Typically the installation directory of the application). If that doesn't work, it's usually registry keys that need to be set to User R/W. Worst case, it's registry keys created in the user hive during installation, that are expected to be present when the application is run. Running it on a different user (after all you installed as Admin) then fails. Temporary give that user Admin rights, install the application, revoke the rights and it usually works.

      I won't say it works for every single program, but I've managed to make run 99% of applications that way.

    97. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by g00head · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, if you think every user needs admin rights on their machine in a non-IT industry, we don't want you

      --
      "I'd make a wooshing sound, but the post was so far over your head it was inaudible..."
    98. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by g00head · · Score: 1
      See, and that's the problem - the users know we monitor internet access via proxy (most don't understand what that means except for the 'Big Brother' boogeyman) but they still go to stupid sites and do stupid things. No matter how much we try to explain Smiley's and free screensavers and their dangers, we still get at least one request a month if not more because someone's too lazy to go to google.com to search (or yahoo, or whatever).

      We monitor inbound/outbound traffic for viruses, spyware, malware and all that - it's not in the offices that we worry so much, it's when they're at home or sitting in a Starbucks or (god forbid) an internet cafe.

      No amount of IT policies will stop users from doing something stupid that they've been explicitly trained not to do, it just gives the company a legal recourse to take if it chooses.

      It has nothing with feeling important, it has to do with the fact we have much bigger projects and initiatives to spend our time on. It's absolutely useless to waste manpower on virus hunts and spyware/malware infections needlessly. Work smarter, not harder is a motto to live by in IT - and this benefits the users whether they know it or not, as they have generally zippier machines (as much as XP will allow anyway) and less downtime for stupid issues that can be very easily avoided by a little proactive configuration.

      This IT dept is basically brand new as of four years ago - we've not only been supporting the global business, but had to redo practically all IT infrastructure in all offices as the previous 'department' was several college dropouts on helpdesk and network admin, with a sys admin who spent more time running his side business than being in the office. I can't speak to the previous helpdesk personnel, but the network admin and sys admin were oxygen thieves and just collecting a pay check while keeping the seats warm. As an example, four years ago when we came in there had been no backups of the main global file server in over six months, and no one had a clue there was an issue - they were just swapping tapes and continuing on with surfing YouTube all day. It was right in the backup software logs that nothing was being written to tape, we didn't even need a test restore to find out...

      --
      "I'd make a wooshing sound, but the post was so far over your head it was inaudible..."
    99. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by rikkards · · Score: 1

      That is where Group Policies and Preferences come into play, you can set up filters to only affect machines that have the app installed and apply the required permissions to the file or folder as needed.

    100. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by tangelogee · · Score: 1

      Now add in that you might be working in an EDUCATION environment - where every tenured faculty member is also a brain-dead PHB.

      And every student is a wannabe 1337 h4x0r...

    101. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by tangelogee · · Score: 1

      Two words: Medical apps

      a few more words: Badly coded apps

      The first is the worst, because you can't always migrate to something better.

      Two more words: educational software

      As we like to say - Are you a programmer? can't get a job anywhere else because you aren't very good? Work for an educational software company!

    102. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      With Dynamics GP 2008, at least, "Run this program as administrator" did not work for whatever reason. Due to the scale of the install (small) it made more sense to just give the users administrative rights.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    103. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by NateTech · · Score: 1

      Every situation is different. Sounds like you guys are doing the best you can with the cards you've been dealt.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    104. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by green1 · · Score: 1

      Is that an option on XP?

      Working for a company as large as the one I do, and as paranoid to boot, I'm rather certain that if they could have found a way, we wouldn't have admin rights. On the bright side, although I have had to call in to our support departments many times, Every time the problem has either been hardware (something that admin rights don't affect) or issues on server side programs (again, something local admin rights don't affect) and the same goes for pretty much everyone in my department that I've talked to. So I don't think admin rights are driving the nightmare call volume here that you seem to expect.

    105. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is an option on XP. I have used it recently, because one of my users needed OpenVPN and that doesn't work Limited, but with those rights it does. It makes the user able to change all network settings. It really simply is a user group: add user to it, done. I assume that you could set every required right as a group policy, but I wouldn't know.

    106. Re:Never underestimate the power of liquids by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's worse than that.

      Vista's implementation of UAC was actually specifically intended to be user-hostile.

      Why?

      You'll notice that just about every UAC dialog shows the publisher of the application. That's very much intentional, because Microsoft intended for you to contact that publisher, when their app spewed 20 billion UAC dialogs.

      The problem is, it breaks down when half the time, the publisher is Microsoft.

  4. blame the cheap PHB that run stuff into the ground by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    blame the cheap PHB that run stuff into the ground this is the same attitude that led to the I-35 bridge collapse.

  5. Spend money to save money... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Employers are so penny-wise and pound-foolish. An 80 quid ssd would add up to hours every week of not waiting around while builds happen. A second monitor would make endless alt-tabs whenever I'm debugging a thing of the past. The productivity gains would pay for themselves within a couple of weeks. Instead, let's drop a six-figure sum on a new logo, brand, or mission statement... or pay consultants an obscene amount to streamline our processes...

    1. Re:Spend money to save money... by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's about right. I think my company dropped $50M on a "new brand image" (that looked a lot like the old brand image), another $42M on a new "one size fits all" database that actually doesn't work for almost anything, tens of millions in golden parachutes.

      "Can I get a monitor with a display resolution larger than 1400x900?" "No." "But...but...I can't even see a page of schematics at a time, and the code I'm maintaining is a hundred thousand lines split in to dozens of files!" "The budget is tight, can't do it."

    2. Re:Spend money to save money... by khr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Can I get a monitor with a display resolution larger than 1400x900?" "No." "But...but...I can't even see a page of schematics at a time, and the code I'm maintaining is a hundred thousand lines split in to dozens of files!" "The budget is tight, can't do it."

      You're asking for the wrong reasons... With a bigger monitor you can show the new brand image more clearly, you can use the extra space to display the image of the new mission statement... You'll always be on track that way, you'll know the schematic you can't see clearly on the screen is driving customer satisfaction and global leadership and all that...

    3. Re:Spend money to save money... by sanosuke001 · · Score: 2

      All of the developers in my area have dual 30" Dell 2560x1600 monitors, overclocked i7 985's, top-of-the-line geForce/radeon/quadro/fireGL cards, and SAS or SSD raids. It definitely shows in our productivity. However, we are a research and development software group and do computer graphics and UI development so maybe we are a bit out of the norm. But it definitely shows how increasing hardware definitely increases productivity.

      --
      -SaNo
    4. Re:Spend money to save money... by digitalchinky · · Score: 1

      Why would you do endless alt+tabs when endless Ctrl+Alt+cursor can get you the window you want much faster? Possibly saving you tens of milliseconds every week. Give everyone a bunch of xterms, vi, and OLVWM, you can't go wrong with that :-)

    5. Re:Spend money to save money... by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      But it definitely shows how increasing hardware definitely increases productivity.

      And there is the fallacy hard working class individuals cling to. The PHB doesn't care how efficient or productive things are. The PHB wants to know how PROFITABLE things are. If you appeal to your PHB that adding hardware widget xyz will increase the bottom line by xxx% and only add xx% in cost then his eyes will light up and he will listen intently. Tell him how much more productive you will be and he will suddenly have a meeting to go to.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    6. Re:Spend money to save money... by Whalou · · Score: 1

      "Can I get a monitor with a display resolution larger than 1400x900?"

      I'm glad my place of work isn't like that.

      I'm currently running three screens, one 30" screen in the center with one 20" in portrait mode on each side for a total resolution of 4960x1600.
      It's always a pain when I have to work directly on the laptop.

      --
      English is not this .sig mother tongue...
    7. Re:Spend money to save money... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I had to give my boss "metrics" of how much time I saved using a second monitor. Nonetheless, I just made a bunch of tick marks that represented "I just saved 30 seconds", whether I saved 30 seconds or not (and inflated the tick marks by about 100 a day). At the end of the trial period I was able to say I saved tens of hours in productivity!

      See, you just have to speak their lingo. Facts are for chumps.

    8. Re:Spend money to save money... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In an offical business environment I would never ever ever overclock any piece of hardware. For the enthusiast that wants a couple more FPS, sure.

    9. Re:Spend money to save money... by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      Ah, but to anyone with more than two working braincells it is obvious that an increase in productivity implies an increased efficiency. By upgrading your "developer unit" with a new high-res monitor, comfy chair that isn't constantly causing the developer unit to focus on adjusting it and other minor costs you will ensure maximum efficiency which in turn means a more reliable developer unit that more consistently meets deadlines. This of course means a marked increase of profit or reduced cost of development (depending on how your company is structured to look at development financially).

      Now, to a PHB this is of course just "excuses to get new toys" (of course, should the sales team request 30" monitors and faster computers well by god, they make us money, better keep them happy!).

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    10. Re:Spend money to save money... by Talderas · · Score: 1

      The way I got authorization to upgrade the graphics and install a second monitor on a user's machine was to show that by doing so, the user didn't have to print off a 450 page document about every other week. Saving us $9 a pop an paying for itself after so many weeks.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    11. Re:Spend money to save money... by sanosuke001 · · Score: 1

      The systems we ordered are under warranty from Boxx Technologies as overclocked systems. We did not overclock themselves; the model we ordered comes that way. Boxx systems are awesome.

      --
      -SaNo
    12. Re:Spend money to save money... by wwphx · · Score: 1

      That's a familiar story. My laptop has wider screen resolution than my old 15" monitor at work, it's kind of inconvenient when I go in to the office as I telecommute and my physical workstation has to reconfigure the windows for its limited resolution when I'm there and then I have to redo them again when I'm back home and telecommuting again.

      I can believe what TFA is saying, though I've never seen it. I have a constant battle to maintain a certain Access database in 2003 though there are now later versions of Office floating around the office. We have people in the field using the runtime version of Access to use this system and frankly their laptops probably can't run the later versions, so we're kinda stuck. And since these laptops have EDGE modems, they're not cheap to replace.

      --
      When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
    13. Re:Spend money to save money... by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      This of course means a marked increase of profit or reduced cost of development

      Does it? And are you prepared with the numbers to support that claim?

      Managerial types don't ultimately care about how many lines of code per hour are produced. They care about the cost of the end product delivered. Increased productivity certainly implies increased efficiency, but that is by no means guaranteed. Does the increased output offset the cost of the new monitors (probably) or a super ergonomic office chair?

      At the very least without some statistics to back up the claim, the manager isn't able to properly advocate for the change and won't be able to differentiate legitimate upgrade requests from the people that just want the new shinys.

    14. Re:Spend money to save money... by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      Well I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who has not-so-fond memories of raiding the offices of other teams to scavenge parts for office chairs*. Or arguing with the helpdesk guys over whether or not a 17" CRT barely capable of pushing 1024x768@72Hz while displaying anything green as black really counts as a functional monitor (hint: they claimed it did).

      So sure, if you have a decent setup to begin with then it might be understandable that management wants some estimates of just how much productivity will increase. But when you have equipment that barely works, computers that are almost ten years old with barely enough RAM to run a web browser and a monitor that is liable to either give you cancer or just explode in your face I don't think there's any question that efficiency will go up remarkably if new equipment is purchased. At that point not buying new gear is just management being cheap to the point of being stupid (or "dumsnål" as it's called in swedish).

      * Despite the thieving of chair parts it still seemed like every other week someone would call in sick because of back pain caused by the ancient office chairs we were using.

      Oh yeah, I'm no longer employed there and I wouldn't go back there if they offered to double my current salary.

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
  6. You mean monitors? by Toe,+The · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's funny how many people point to their monitor and call it their computer. I can imagine a lot of people smash up their monitor expecting that it will result in their getting a new computer.

    What I'd really like to know is how many people do that; get a replacement monitor; and say, "Wow, this new computer is so much faster!"

    1. Re:You mean monitors? by royallthefourth · · Score: 1

      It's funny how many people point to their monitor and call it their computer.

      I use an iMac at work and some people are confused when I do this :-(

    2. Re:You mean monitors? by Rizimar · · Score: 1

      "Look! I can even adjust the speed and make it really fast!" *Turns up the brightness*

    3. Re:You mean monitors? by scrib · · Score: 1

      You joke, but once, long ago (late 80's), I was working as a gofer in a computer department. One of my tasks was to do the initial set up and check of computers that were brought in for repair. I set up one and fiddled with a few things and it seemed to work perfectly. I called my boss over and asked what the repair ticket listed as the problem. "Bright horizontal lines on the display." It took a few moments, but suddenly it hit me. I reached over turned the brightness all the way up, revealing the beam retrace lines. "THOSE horizontal lines?" Yeah, those people got charged the standard bench fee. They were constantly bringing in the computer over dumb things like that...

      --
      Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
    4. Re:You mean monitors? by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      True story: had a user once call to tell me they couldn't get "Greg's" computer to turn on. I listened to the results and told them it sounded like they were pushing the power button on the monitor, and they should try to find the "box" (laptop in a dock) that was the computer and push the power button on it to turn the machine on.

      Their reply: "Oh, Greg took his laptop with him. Does that mean I can't use his computer?"

    5. Re:You mean monitors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But my eyes are so much happier now that I'm not staring at that 15-yr-old CRT.

    6. Re:You mean monitors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I replaced numerous monitors at my last job and got that exact response.

  7. not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When the Blackberry Storm was announced, almost all of our sales people's older Blackberrys broke.

    1. Re:not new by Moryath · · Score: 1

      Those were breaking anyways. The little ball-wheels were complete shit.

      We had a series of users with them and even before the Curve came out we were receiving the ball-roller ones back in droves. Same problem in every case: it ceased to register when you tried to scroll the ball upwards. Those old roller-ball BB's were just fucking defective.

    2. Re:not new by sarhjinian · · Score: 1

      Boy, it must have been a rude shock for them when they actually had to use the Storm on an ongoing basis.

      I know users who broke their Storms in order to go back to Bolds.

      --
      --srj/mmv
  8. Not Surprising by geoffrobinson · · Score: 1

    In a big bureaucracy, people who genuinely need a machine are prioritized. People who have a horribly slow machine aren't considered part of the group. This is the logical way to jump the queue. I've thought about it myself, but not seriously.

    --
    Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    1. Re:Not Surprising by Toe,+The · · Score: 1

      In a big bureaucracy, people who are prioritized within the bureaucracy are prioritized.

      ftfy

    2. Re:Not Surprising by kenh · · Score: 1

      But it isn't your place to decide when your employer should spend money on your equipment. If you think your employer doesn't notice the issue, bring it to their attention. If they refuse the upgrade, you've learned about the company's priorities, and where you are in them - sounds like it's time to make a career decision...

      --
      Ken
    3. Re:Not Surprising by geoffrobinson · · Score: 1

      I know it isn't my place. That's why I didn't destroy something I don't have ownership over.

      --
      Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    4. Re:Not Surprising by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      A bigger problem is when I'm fully willing and able to buy my own high end PC and use it at work, but they won't let me. Even when the computer conforms to all the norms and requirements of the current systems in use. It's not like I'm trying to bring a Mac Pro into my Dell environment, I'm just trying to purchase something like a Dell Optiplex 980 with my own video card so I can actually edit more than 2 seconds of video at a time in After Effects.

    5. Re:Not Surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think your video card is tied to video editing performance? What you need is more RAM, a faster CPU and faster hard drives, not a better video card.

    6. Re:Not Surprising by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      You forgot the part where those with higher ranks always get upgrades first and those with most pull with those in charge of the money always get the new hardware to their department first as well.

      Not saying it's like this in every company but in a lot of places corporate politics is a bitch (and if anything it's worse in larger companies, if you just have a couple of hundred employees it's hard to hide a pattern of favoritism).

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    7. Re:Not Surprising by arose · · Score: 1

      You think the latest video editing software doesn't use GPU acceleration?

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
  9. Re:smash by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 2

    Is no one going to mention destruction of company property = firing?

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  10. Obligatory by cashman73 · · Score: 3, Funny
    1. Re:Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not even the scene, it's some re-enactment.

  11. It's Not The Hardware... by benjamindees · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The reason most office workers are unproductive has nothing to do with their hardware.

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    1. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by kenh · · Score: 1

      Grandpa always said: "A good carpenter never blames his tools"

      --
      Ken
    2. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by swanzilla · · Score: 1

      Go on...

    3. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A good carpenter, particularly in your grandpa's day, is an independent contractor: he buys, owns, and maintains his own tools. There's no shame in blaming your tools if somebody else is forcing you to use shoddy equipment.

    4. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...it's dependent on whether they can access slashdot

    5. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Grandpa always said: "A good carpenter never blames his tools"

      Sure and good chisle or saw will never become outdated, they will require sharpennig or setting from time-to-time, but will continue to perform like new and could easily last a lifetime. Provided your carpenter is able to continue working with hand tools and make a living, he will be perfectly contented.

      But put him up against a coworker using a bench morticer, laser guided chop saw and router table, who turns out work at ten times the rate with sub-millimeter accuracy joints. When the boss complains about your carpenters output, what will he give as the reason (other than the shortsighted boss)?

    6. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by WhirlwindMonk · · Score: 1

      But buying a new hammer wouldn't have cut the time it took him to remove it from his bag in half. That said, the GP is correct, but misses the point. The point is, upgrades can improve the productivity of a productive worker who knows how to use the upgrades. Some people would be lost if they were given a second monitor, others who know how to make good use of it would flourish. Of course, a good worker will not say "The reason I suck is my hardware," they will say "I can do my job even better with better hardware, and this is why."

    7. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by Yetihehe · · Score: 2

      Because good carpenter already has good tools.

      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    8. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Indeed, you can make just about any business more productive by terminating the entire HR department. The tricky thing is keeping the department from being reinstated.

    9. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Most of the time, but sometimes... worst case I had was when they needed to hold an online class, but the room didn't have enough network ports (they weren't wireless). To make a long story short, I was desperately thinking "Please just go down to the hardware store and buy a damn switch, just take it out of the consultancy budget for me" because I was about to tear all my hair out after endless meetings back and forth about finding another room (difficult), getting more ports (difficult), rescheduling (difficult), doing a rotated training (difficult) and every other impractical and irrational waste of everyone's time.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    10. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Is that the Grampa that claims he can hammer a nail into a block of wood with his penis?

    11. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Is that the Grampa that claims he can hammer a nail into a block of wood with his penis?

      Yup, and he said to say Hi to your Mom.

    12. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by kimvette · · Score: 1

      Yeah - they are either on here, on facebook, fark, or twitter.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    13. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by Tolkien · · Score: 1

      Nope, it has everything to do with the text boxes we typed our responses into.

    14. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by aralin · · Score: 2

      Yes? I am a developer at Oracle. I worked for 5 years on my original computer. After that I went through a lot of hassle, it took me about 6 hours of my time in total over few days to get a new computer. I've got 3 years old refurbished one. They kept in place my old CRT monitor, because it was "working". Now another 5 years passed, I've still got that now 8 years old computer and that 10 years old CRT monitor. There was no way I would go through the Oracle Procurement again. I bought myself an iMac some 4 years ago and worked from home just so I could keep being productive and actually enjoy working on the computer in front of me instead of getting sick to my stomach every day from looking at 8 year old piece of junk from Dell. YMMV

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    15. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by maztuhblastah · · Score: 1

      Yes? I am a developer at Oracle. I worked for 5 years on my original computer. After that I went through a lot of hassle, it took me about 6 hours of my time in total over few days to get a new computer. I've got 3 years old refurbished one. They kept in place my old CRT monitor, because it was "working". Now another 5 years passed, I've still got that now 8 years old computer and that 10 years old CRT monitor.

      I don't believe you. There's no way that *any* software at Oracle can run on a single-core machine with a mere couple gig or three of RAM.

    16. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's just in charge of maintaining a single function.

    17. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? This happened in Oracle? Unbelievable!

      I thought that software companies, for one, had a policy to replace hardware once in every 3-4 years or so. It is so sad you had to work in such an environment.

    18. Re:It's Not The Hardware... by Dabido · · Score: 1

      Yes it does. If you took their hardware away they wouldn't be able to surf the net!

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
  12. SSDs to the rescue? by chemicaldave · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Obviously the 5 year old computers in TFA could use an upgrade, but I've found that for my aging workstations, a simple storage upgrade to an SSD would probably be more than enough to increase my productivity. Storage is the new bottleneck, not processing power.

    1. Re:SSDs to the rescue? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Obviously the 5 year old computers in TFA could use an upgrade, but I've found that for my aging workstations, a simple storage upgrade to an SSD would probably be more than enough to increase my productivity. Storage is the new bottleneck, not processing power.

      Only if you're continually accessing the disk. I put an SSD in my netbook because we often boot it up, do a bit of web browsing and shut down, and that dramatically reduced boot times but has no effect on anything that isn't disk intensive.

    2. Re:SSDs to the rescue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure it does - battery life.

    3. Re:SSDs to the rescue? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Sure it does - battery life.

      It's made no obvious difference to the battery life of the netbook which only uses 8W, and saving 0.5W is only going to give you a few extra minutes of battery life on a laptop that uses 30W.

      I'd note, BTW, that the specs show my Intel SSD actually takes more power when writing data than the HDD that it replaced. It only saves power because it spends less time writing due to the lack of head seeks and the idle consumption is lower.

    4. Re:SSDs to the rescue? by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Storage has always been the biggest bottleneck. It's just that we've now gotten to the point where we move so much data just to do basic tasks, the fact that multi-core processors don't provide any benefit to offset this (longer pipes, branch prediction, etc., have all been used already), and the fact that we now have a reasonable alternative to HDD, that we can actually do very much about it. But even before this, there was a noticeable difference between the performance of a 5k RPM HDD and a 15k RPM HDD.

      The bottlenecks have almost always been (from most restrictive to least restrictive) disk access, disk bus bandwidth, bandwidth between RAM and CPU, and CPU speed. GPU speed and graphics bus bandwidth fit in there somewhere, depending on if your application is graphics-intensive or not.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    5. Re:SSDs to the rescue? by Theovon · · Score: 1

      Seriously. I'm a demanding user, so I got a maxed-out 2011 MacBook Pro. Now, with a blazingly fast CPU and 8GB of RAM, it's evident that the main thing limiting the speed of this computer is the mechanical hard drive. I just didn't want to spend an extra $1000 on an SSD. In 10 years, a 1/2 TB SSD will be affordable.

    6. Re:SSDs to the rescue? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but an SSD of usable size and decent performance is $250 or more. ANd you probably need more RAM, too, if that helps perf much at all (outside of direct intentional access). So you're looking at $400+ to upgrade a 5-year-old machine (or really, anything with DDR2).

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    7. Re:SSDs to the rescue? by chemicaldave · · Score: 1

      $250 sounds like a bargain compared to a brand new workstation.

    8. Re:SSDs to the rescue? by jkmartin · · Score: 1

      There's always going to be a bottleneck. Example - 6 months earlier we installed the fastest computers available in an area that did massive printing jobs. Unfortunately they had a token ring network that was running below 5mbps (yes, this has been a while) and still had unacceptable performance. Instead of actually fixing the network issues, the network people pushed the problem back on me and said the customers needed new computers. I balked at that since the newest models had only minimal improvements in processor in memory compared to what they had. This resulted in much yelling directed my way so to give the customer area more leverage in demanding better network speeds we installed new computers with no improvement in function. HAHAHA TAKE THAT NETWORK PEOPLE!

      This was a big company with more than a $1 billion IT budget. Installing the new computers was probably the cheapest and easiest direction and avoided 4 levels of management, 2 customer areas, 3 IT areas, and some really pointless cost/benefit analysis. It didn't actually fix anything, but it was no longer my problem.

  13. Solution by Metabolife · · Score: 1

    Spending $500 on a cheap dual core with 4GB of ram should be high on the priority of any company with aging office workstations. Huge money saver when your employee doesn't have to wait on that old P4 to open a window anymore.

    1. Re:Solution by Krneki · · Score: 1

      Spending $500 on a cheap dual core with 4GB of ram should be high on the priority of any company with aging office workstations. Huge money saver when your employee doesn't have to wait on that old P4 to open a window anymore.

      I see you that have never worked in a big IT company.

      If you did, you would know that supporting cheap randomized $500 PC is very time consuming and will end up with you having a huge stockpile of semi-working PC.

      No, in a big IT environment you need standardized PC, which means buying old over-priced PC just to have identical parts.

      but don't get me wrong I do understand the user frustration, if it was for me, at least the monitors (dual, triple ...), keyboard and mouse would be top quality. For the PC, I can keep them clean with a white-list of programs allowed to run in the background. I don't do workstation admin anymore due to lack of time with the servers, but I still make a script or two to automatize help desk support.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    2. Re:Solution by jon787 · · Score: 1

      Ugh, I worked at a place that was still running P4s, that should have set off alarm bells in my head.

      --
      X(7): A program for managing terminal windows. See also screen(1).
    3. Re:Solution by snowraver1 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that could free up more time for that employee to goof off on the Internets.

      --
      Copyright 2010. All rights reserved. This comment may not be copied in any way including, but not limited to caching.
    4. Re:Solution by kenh · · Score: 1

      Where I work we have over 1,000 P4s in daily use - it's our local public school system, and the tax payers have just decided that our district should not have a 5 year replacement cycle, but a 10 year cycle. We are watching our Dell OptiPlex GX270s die from bad capacitors on the MB/PS.

      We are thinking of running Win7 on them, since as machines die we get more RAM to upgrade other 270s, and with hyperthreading and 2 gigs of RAM, they are fairly decent. (Better than Atom Netbook performance, worse than anything Core 2 Duo). Once you overcome the sound card driver issue in the box, they are very reasonable machines, even with Office 2010 on Win 7...

      --
      Ken
    5. Re:Solution by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Good point! Our cheap Dells (redundant, I know) have just been replaced by high end Dells (oxymoron, I know), but so far the tech support issues have fallen of drastically. Probably has more to do with new hardware, but here's to hoping these systems they paid 2-3x more for than the old systems are worth their price.

    6. Re:Solution by CelticWhisper · · Score: 1

      Better if you or someone in your department can build. I'm putting together Athlon II-based boxes with 2GB of DDR3 1333 for roughly $200 (varies with available CPU/RAM/MoBo sets). Recycle cases, skip the optical drive, go with onboard video. True you don't get the OEM warranty and it makes standardization nigh impossible, but if you integrate device drivers into your XP install source you quickly get to the point where everything works out of the box, since motherboard manufacturers seem to source most of their onboard devices from a small set of suppliers, and having NVidia, ATI, and Realtek drivers slipstreamed addresses most hardware sets.

      --
      Help protect civil rights from abuse by the TSA - visit TSA News Blog.
      http://www.tsanewsblog.com
    7. Re:Solution by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      Pentium 4? Fuck all of you, I'm using a Pentium 3 Celeron at work and I had to salvage PCs getting thrown in the trash just to not be running on the 256MB RAM it came with. And I don't even have the excuse of doing office work for justifying that piece of trash. I'm doing development, and I spend most of my time waiting for the terminal windows to redraw as I scroll down a text file.

      They did seem to take your advice though. The office PCs that run Firefox and Excel all day are all Core2s with 1080p LCDs. DVI ones at that.

    8. Re:Solution by Moryath · · Score: 1

      the tax payers have just decided that our district should not have a 5 year replacement cycle, but a 10 year cycle

      Lemme guess, Retardican stronghold? Tax breaks for the rich, fuck the kids?

    9. Re:Solution by Metabolife · · Score: 1

      And you would be correct. We're not at a size where we have to worry about standardization just yet. I figure when that happens, I'll have to start them from scratch with a baseline which I can clone.

    10. Re:Solution by mjwx · · Score: 1

      And you would be correct. We're not at a size where we have to worry about standardization just yet. I figure when that happens, I'll have to start them from scratch with a baseline which I can clone.

      Not that that should stop you from starting to implement some kind of cloning system. Even using free software like Clonezilla.

      If you move to a paid for imaging solution later, the experience, procedures and policies you develop now will make things a lot easier in the future.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    11. Re:Solution by Krneki · · Score: 1

      I we used Ghost for cloning but now we use microsoft deployment toolkit. It takes a lot more time to setup, but it allows you to deploy windows installation on different hardware (laptop, workstation, ...).

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    12. Re:Solution by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      So does decent cloning software. I've used Acronis and O&O successfully with their various hardware independent restore. And Windows 7 with the right pushes does most of that itself anyway.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
  14. Something to be learned from the spiller by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 2

    There might be something to be learned from the spiller. Rather than wasting anyone's time to "clean up" a "bogged down" desktop, it sounds like at least one of your users would have been perfectly happy with an annual drive wipe. There might be more like her.

    1. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by softWare3ngineer · · Score: 1

      I would argue that a hard drive wipe would not satisfy many of these people. They see 'new' in the next cube over and want one. these employee still get the same 'old' hardware after a wipe, even if it is just as fast as the 'new' stuff. We have been conditioned to love new things.

    2. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by clang_jangle · · Score: 5, Funny

      The only way is to issue destructive/"accident prone" people used or reconditioned machines. I always say, "take care of this solid, but old machine for 18 months and we'll see about letting you have a new one.". It works pretty well. That coffee spiller would have been quite deflated if she'd had to deal with me, heh -- "I'm so sorry you had an accident with your Pentium M laptop; here's a nice, reconditioned PIII for a replacement -- awwww and you were only 6 months from getting one of the new ones... Well, maybe(the last quarter of 2012!".

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    3. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by Sparrow1492 · · Score: 1

      It's even worse. Back when I was working on my Masters part of my thesis was an experiment on PC usage. Basically, it turned out that if you put an old PC and a new PC side by side, and told people as part of the test they would be using the newer one, they had the most user satisfaction regardless of which machine they actually used. You could theoretically buy them a new looking case with the same guts and they would be fine.

    4. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by kenh · · Score: 1

      Do you have children? You never, EVER reward bad behavior - any point she may have had was erased by her wanton destruction of company assets for her own ego gratification...

      Where I work we instruct users to never keep anything on their laptop/desktop hard drive - everything on the server, then, when they have a problem, we can re-image/replace the desktop inside of 20 minutes.

      --
      Ken
    5. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by grapeape · · Score: 1

      We actually did regularly scheduled cleanups but they do little good when the first thing they do when they get it back is install smiley central, weather bug and whatever screensaver app they think is doing them a favor. Locking them down wasn't given as an option even though it was suggested to management...they threw it back at the IT department as just trying to be lazy and not wanting to clean up machines rather than actually helping productivity and avoiding interruptions. Leaving there is still one of the highlights of my life.

    6. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, where I work they have a policy specifically never to replace PC's unless they have no choice. One of my coworkers currently has a system in repairs, even though the system is completely out of warranty and the repairs are costing the company more than buying him a new PC would have cost. (so far, they've replaced the hard drive, the processor, the motherboard, and the RAM). To make matters worse, the system they're so adamant about fixing instead of replacing? It's a Pentium D 2.6GHz with 2GB of RAM.

      My own workstation is a Pentium D 3GHz, also with 2GB of RAM. Wouldn't be so bad, except the company standard is Windows XP with IE 6... fortunately I have admin rights on my workstation and have been able to install Firefox and Chrome, but I can't upgrade from IE6 (I have the access to do it, but one of the tools I use on a daily basis will not work outside of IE6 due to its reliance on j-initiator). Le sigh. We're actually holding off rolling out Windows 7 until that tool can be rewritten, because apparently our IT department has never heard of Windows Terminal Services (RDP).

    7. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      "Unfortunately, where I work they have a policy specifically never to replace PC's unless they have no choice."

      Hey boss, yeah, my PC is on fire.... what should I do? I tried pressing Ctl-Alt-Del but I cant find a "fire.exe" process to kill and it's really starting to stink and fill the room with smoke.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    8. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a great idea. That way you get to keep old machines around for those who break them. Also, you can sell the old machines if you end up having a large surplus. It wasn't always the case, but it's now cheap enough that you can probably buy all your employees brand new machines every 18 months, and make up for the difference in productivity gains.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    9. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by Stormthirst · · Score: 1

      I've worked in similar organisations where everything goes on the server for backup purposes. I got called to someone's office once because the hard drive had failed. When I told him what had happened, he said "Take it away! I don't want anything that's unreliable!"
      I asked him if he had AA cover on his car, and he said of course he did.
      I then pointed out that the only reason he had AA cover was because he believed that at some point his car might fail - and asked why he had a car that was so unreliable. He didn't have an answer for me - and I bet he saved everything to the server from then on in.

      I suspect he was just trying to vent his frustration on me because he'd lost all his work when his drive failed.

      These days with sub-$100 NAS on the market, there really is no reason to save work on local hard drives in a SMB.

    10. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      I would argue that a hard drive wipe would not satisfy many of these people. They see 'new' in the next cube over and want one.

      Depends on your users I guess, I work with grown-ups. I'm in the process of upgrading quite a few desktops at work, we have bought a few new ones and reinstalled/upgraded others. As long as the users experience a significant increase in performance from what they're used to they're very happy. We've also found that moving the OS to a cheap SSD (done in fifteen minutes with Ubuntu Live, partition resize and dd) makes the box a lot more responsive, and improves the user satisfaction immensely.

      Another point: half decent computer equipment is dirt cheap compared to other costs related to keeping someone employed. Don't skimp on it, there's no reason why an employee which costs the company ~$90000/year or more should be frustrated with poor performance all day when a $100-$500 upgrade would make him/her happy. Same thing goes for peripherals like multiple monitors and specialised mice and keyboards, a perceived need is a real need as far as we're concerned. Any reasonable manager will agree with you if you put things into perspective in this manner, especially if the computer is the employees' main work tool. If your users feel like smashing their equipment in frustration you're definitely doing something wrong.

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
    11. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

      it's now cheap enough that you can probably buy all your employees brand new machines every 18 months, and make up for the difference in productivity gains.

      Really depends on the kind of work the person's doing. Many people don't need anything cutting edge to be as productive as they're going to get, especially if you have them on xubuntu or XP. In fact, many people will become less productive if you give them something fast enough to run all the online flash games and do slashdot really well. ;)

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    12. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Chrome and Firefox will happily install to user space, no admin rights necessary. I've even seen it sneak onto Citrix servers.

    13. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Most people don't need cutting edge computers. A Pentium D that was awesome several years ago can actually do the necessary work for most employees. Now if they actually do need computing power, then a faster one is warranted. But you don't need computing power for most office tasks, especially if you don't upgrade Ms Office to the newer/slower versions. If an employee does actually need the speed you can usually get it by dumping Windows and using Linux or BSD along with the new computer. Very often I think people want the new computer because it's a status symbol, and being stuck with the old one is seen as a sign that you're not valued.

      The other thing to do is to recycle those old computers into servers. Stick them in the lab, put a twiki on them, make them part of a compute farm, replace the even older manufacturing station, etc.

      The real problem with "don't replace it unless is breaks" is that they'll never break. People are still using 386s and Sun 3's out there.

    14. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I had to replace a Sun server hard drive once. A whopping 350MB thing that took two people to lift. We had no maintenance contract so we paid full price to replace it ($2000 or there abouts). I suggested we should get maintenance, and they said they'd thing about it. A few months later that drive went bad too. So this time they paid for the drive and made sure they paid for maintenance too :-)

    15. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by kcbnac · · Score: 2

      Windows 7 (Pro and above) is licensed for a VM install of XP Pro. Microsoft even offers a pre-configured one for this purpose. Then you can have the app run like a normal one on 7, but its actually running in XP.

    16. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      The thing with locking things down is it works provided one of two assumptions are met

      1: everyone is doing the same thing with the same set of software
      2: IT (or whoever is entrusted with admin privilages) are responsive and deal with requests to install software or change other configurations quickly and efficiantly.

      If neither of those are the case then it can be hell (i've seen this recently where the local guy in our research group who had admin on a bunch of machines left and the guy from IT he passed the credentials on to is very difficult to get hold of). Personally I support a benefit of the doubt policy, let people have control over their machines the first time but be prepared to start locking things down for people who break the rules and/or are incapable of keeping their machines clean.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    17. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      Please tell that to my IT department who think that poor performance is my fault because I'm 'overtaxing' the machine with 2 instances each of Word & Excel, 2 Citrix windows and IE7 with (shock) 7 tabs open (2 of which were empty).

      --
      FGD 135
    18. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The real problem with "don't replace it unless is breaks" is that they'll never break. People are still using 386s and Sun 3's out there.

      There will be a few that survive for ages, but that's not statistically likely. What I've seen in practice is that the stuff that doesn't break in the first 3 or so years will last a long time... but usually by year 7 something breaks. And by then the system is so old that the price of replacement parts that would still work with it have gone *up* and it's cheaper to just replace the whole box with a currently-midrange one. In a large company that bought a ton of similar stuff at once, if they kept all the dead systems, you might be able to scrounge parts to keep one going... but that assumes it's not usually the same part failing in all of them. And, sadly, even that repair method might not cost much less (in the pay of the person digging through old parts) than replacing the whole box. But then, a lot of the larger companies actually have their desktop hardware as part of a long term purchase/service/rental kind of contract, so the broken stuff gets shipped back and replaced right when it breaks and there's no stockpile of leftover parts to work with 7+ years later.

    19. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      Please tell that to my IT department who think that poor performance is my fault because I'm 'overtaxing' the machine with 2 instances each of Word & Excel, 2 Citrix windows and IE7 with (shock) 7 tabs open (2 of which were empty).

      Ouch, that's a minuscule workload which any computer less than eight years old should handle... Sounds like your IT department is lazy and/or incompetent :)

      In my experience it's always quicker to reimage than to try to fix an ageing Windows install, no matter what the "you can always clean it up"-crowd says. Windows behaves strangely after being installed for some time. A reimaging is "free", if you can't persuade them to even try that I feel sorry for you.

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
    20. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by jrminter · · Score: 1

      Tell me where you found this mythical creature, the "reasonable manager."

    21. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      The key words here are "any reasonable manager", "grown-ups", or for that matter "$90,000/year". All these concepts are completely foreign to me.

    22. Re:Something to be learned from the spiller by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      Actually, $90k/yr isn't too far off, after benefits and all of that are considered.

  15. What a bunch of dummies by countertrolling · · Score: 5, Funny

    Slow computers means taking lots of breaks and going out for a snack. I don't want to be more 'productive'. I want to relax, and a slow machine helps me do just that.

    "What the hell is taking you so long?"

    I just shrug and point to the screen...

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    1. Re:What a bunch of dummies by bunratty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most unproductive workers are unproductive because they're lazy and dumb. They blame the computer because it's easier than admitting they're lazy and dumb. If programmers could write complex programs in the 50s and 60s using punched cards and waiting overnight for the output of their runs, a smart and diligent worker could figure out how to queue up work so they could be productive even with a "slow" computer. Their "slow" computer is thousands of times faster and is available to them nearly all day! Only a poor worker blames his tools. Now if the computer just plain didn't work, that would be a different story...

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    2. Re:What a bunch of dummies by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I know.. I'm one of those lazy bastards. I spent much less time on the actual work at hand because I'm writing a macro to do it for me. I'm only being clever, making the boss think I'm working so very hard.. I just have to remember to mute the sound.. if you get my drift.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    3. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Jaysyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Their "slow" computer is thousands of times faster and is available to them nearly all day! Only a poor worker blames his tools. Now if the computer just plain didn't work, that would be a different story...

      Says the person who has never used a serious CAD or GIS application on non-cutting edge workstation.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    4. Re:What a bunch of dummies by theaceoffire · · Score: 1

      So what you are saying is that the old school programers worked for a few hours and waited for the rest of the day to see if they have an error.

      ^_^ I would say we are more productive than that even WITH those "lazy and dumb" practices of ours.

      Besides, most projects I cover tend to be linear in nature. In fact, the output of one script may negate the whole purpose of a second script or tool.

      I would also suggest to you that most unproductive workers are workers who lack good communication with the clients. Many a script turned out to be unneeded or useless once the client gets what they asked for, as the client tends to be really saying "Figure out what I am thinking, stop asking me questions what do I pay you for!"

      --
      I steal signatures. This one used to be yours.
    5. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you have never been to an office where the manager wan't all the work done in a timely fashion but their last PC upgrade was in the late 90's.

      Always fun working with a Celeron 750.

    6. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ....it's easier than admitting they're lazy and dumb.

      I admitted it and they gave me a corner office, a title, and eventually, they fired me and I got this awesome severance!

      Anyway, I eventually got a new job at Bank of America..... go figure!

    7. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I completely agree. Visual Studio eating up 100% of the resources of your workstation while building a project is exactly comparable to the 50's and 60's corporate software development environment.

    8. Re:What a bunch of dummies by hiryuu · · Score: 1

      I just shrug and point to the screen...

      The desktop unit I had when I first got to this job was ancient, and was barely creaking along on W2K at the time. I used to find it somewhere between amusing and comforting that, upon arrival to my office in the morning, I could push the power button, take my time ambling around getting a drink or snack or whatever, log in, go get something else done, log into Notes, go get another something else done, and then sit down to actually use my computer. From power-on to being able to read my first email was a minimum of 17 minutes. :P

      --
      Karma: Excellent, but still won't get you laid.
    9. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a slow computer here. It freezes a lot when typing in Visual Studio. I suspect Windows XP to be the root cause. No amount of will will make it stop freezing, and it definitely is hurting my productivity sometimes.

    10. Re:What a bunch of dummies by smartr · · Score: 1

      Go ahead and remake SAP on your 8086 while you're at it... I'm sure your employers won't mind you rebuilding an ERP whee you're supposed to work on. Heck, if you make your algorithms correctly, you can do everything with pencil and paper! You don't even need a computer!

    11. Re:What a bunch of dummies by kaiser423 · · Score: 1

      Uh, I don't know if you know this, but a person of the same competence as that dude using punch cards in the 60's can knock out probably about 15x more code in a day using a computer.

      Don't blame the tools for under-performance, but tools do matter. They do enhance productivity. The fact that I can whip up a little GUI 500 lines of quick code and use it to run a test and get some numbers before lunch is a pretty damn big deal.

    12. Re:What a bunch of dummies by bunratty · · Score: 0

      I've been in a situation like that. At one job I had a computer with 8 MB of RAM running Windows 95, so it was constantly swapping. The hard disk kept having errors, so I had to do builds on the file server over 10 Mbps Ethernet instead of on my hard disk. I was developing software for radios, but had only one unit to work with, and that was only the digital board without the analog board. I still managed to write the software so that it worked the first time they hooked up two radios to communicate with each other. Yes, the RAM was a problem and when my computer got upgraded to 12 MB it was much easier to work with, but I didn't blame my computer. I just did the job I was paid to do. Suck it up and just do the work.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    13. Re:What a bunch of dummies by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Great.. Now work on some automated responses to your emails, and you might get another few minutes..for some quality time with a coworker in the broom closet.

      Heeey fifiiii..parlez vous a humma humma?

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    14. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Programs in the 50s and 60s were also just a bunch of sequences of operations, not highly abstracted models and design pattern overdose and 500 reports to keep up to date along with WIKI's in order to get that promotion by being visible.

    15. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CAD's been around for as long as computers have, minus an epsilon that might as well be a rounding error.

      You're telling me back then CAD didn't work at all, and people couldn't get work done?

    16. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slow computers means taking lots of breaks and going out for a snack. I don't want to be more 'productive'. I want to relax, and a slow machine helps me do just that.

      "What the hell is taking you so long?"

      I just shrug and point to the screen...

      I remember a Dilbert cartoon from years ago with the question/punchline

      "How often do you need to do full screen renders anyway"
      "Once. If I'm lucky"

      Damned if I can find a copy now. If any smarter bods here can track down "dilbert cartoon x from 199n, much appreciated.

    17. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Great if you're programming a calculation (which is what they did in the 50s and 60s) that prints out the answer to console or printer... Try creating/working on a multi-threaded GUI application say running on the Eclipse RCP platform... Or, a back-end server app. that contains dozens or hundreds of components from other work-groups in the company... The faster, the better for all concerned.

    18. Re:What a bunch of dummies by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      If programmers could write complex programs in the 50s and 60s using punched cards and waiting overnight for the output of their runs, a smart and diligent worker could figure out how to queue up work so they could be productive even with a "slow" computer.

      I recently came across the user manual from a computer of that era, the STANTEC ZEBRA[1]. It had two instruction sets, the full set and one called 'simple code' (which was actually pretty complex). One of the limitations of simple code was that programs could be at most 150 instructions. This, the manual notes, is not an important limitation, because no one could feasibly write a working program that complex.

      I also came across some exercise books from people who programmed these machines, showing their code. First, they drew flow charts, then they wrote the assembly-like code, then they punched the cards (in machine code - the assembler was the human). Then they took a bus to the computer and joined the queue to test them. If they didn't work, they'd have 5 minutes to patch (literally, applying patches to cover up holes in the cards) and resubmit the job before being bumped to the next day. The most complex programs in this exercise book were things that I could implement on a modern computer in well under five minutes, and they took a typical programmer back then about a week to do.

      So, yes, programmers back then could write programs. They could write programs that were complex, in comparison to the hardware that they ran on. They could write programs that could get work done a hundred or so times faster than a human doing the same work. But their productivity was orders of magnitude lower than a modern programmer. Some of the 'complex' programs from that era would be a single line of code in a modern high-level language.

      [1] I had a post-doc position for 8 months attached to a History of Computing project a couple of years back.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    19. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ah, an IT bastard. I can tell by the pixels...

      A typical office worker doesn't queue up jobs. They use Microsoft Office. If they have to stare at a blank Excel screen for a full thirty seconds every time they open a file because their computer is old (or missing a vital part, IT at my company likes to steal memory from new workstations for personal use and plug in whatever will get the thing to boot) they will quickly burn out. Maybe if the "dummies" are complaining you might take a moment to climb down off of your high horse and take a closer look?

    20. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Belial6 · · Score: 2

      No, the programmers of the 50's and 60's were horribly unproductive by today's standards. Their biggest bottleneck was ridiculously crappy equipment by today's standards. "Only a poor worker blames his tools." is one of those sound bites that sound's good, but on even the slightest examination shows how dumb it is. The counter sound bite is "Use the right tool for the job."

    21. Re:What a bunch of dummies by FreonTrip · · Score: 1

      It's always been difficult to make CAD or GIS apps work productively on poorly configured, under-spec systems. That was true a generation ago, and it's true today.

      * Ever have to do serious work in ArcGIS 9.3 on a 1.6 GHz Pentium 4 with 768 MB of Rambus and a 4 MB video card? I sincerely advise against it.

    22. Re:What a bunch of dummies by socrplayr813 · · Score: 1

      THIS

      I'm an engineer who uses Solidworks on a fairly regular basis. Our IT guy either doesn't understand or doesn't care that CAD programs require more horsepower than Word. Ever tried running full-featured CAD software on a 500 MHz with 256 MB RAM? I did that for a good while, and it wasn't more than a few years ago.

      Even our 'new' computers are barely adequate Celerons with 1 GB RAM. Yeah, I can get by, but it's an exercise in pain/anger management any time I have to do anything more than a basic drawing. Even those can be frustrating...

      If I tried to conveniently spill coffee in it or broke something, I'd get a computer that's even older, and might even end up paying for it or worse. Honestly, I can't imagine doing that, even if the machine were old, useless crap. Maybe I just have too much respect for things.

      --
      The confidence of ignorance will always overcome the indecision of knowledge.
    23. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Let me give you a hammer and a chisel and have you break up that sidewalk.....

    24. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Jaysyn · · Score: 2

      Ever tried running full-featured CAD software on a 500 MHz with 256 MB RAM? I did that for a good while, and it wasn't more than a few years ago.

      Even our 'new' computers are barely adequate Celerons with 1 GB RAM. Yeah, I can get by, but it's an exercise in pain/anger management any time I have to do anything more than a basic drawing.

      Damn. I'm running a Intel Core 2 Quad Q8200 @ 2.33GHz with 4 GB of RAM & it still chokes on the CAD & GIS stuff I'm working on right now. I quite literally couldn't even use you machine.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    25. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except some slower PCs around here literally take 45 minutes to load our complex over-engineered web application.

      Before it even starts loading, McAfee is proud to go scan the entire 900meg+ JVM cache despite none of the cache belonging to this app.

      Then after that loads, it likes to crash. A single crash makes you wait another 45 minutes because if you thought you were smart and opened two, both crash at the same time!

      Disable Java cache (after all, a cache is something that speeds an app up, if it slows you down why have it?) - 20 minutes
      Bump Memory from 2gb->4gb - 10 minutes
      Best case scenario without AV and a nice upgrade: 15 minutes

      That's a nice smoke break, even though I don't smoke I go out with the smokers. I call it my 2nd hand smoke break. Works for me.

      15 minutes of my salary is over $15. Smoke away people. Only Dollars change minds.

    26. Re:What a bunch of dummies by pathological+liar · · Score: 2

      Unless you're at a tiny company (single digits) where the "IT guy" is the "CTO", he almost certainly doesn't set the budget, he just makes do with what he has.

      As someone who got saddled with desktop support in addition to real work, please: if your hardware is inadequate and preventing you from doing your job, bitch to your boss, NOT your IT guy. I sympathize, but I can't do anything about it and it's getting more than a little tired.

    27. Re:What a bunch of dummies by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Their "slow" computer is thousands of times faster and is available to them nearly all day! Only a poor worker blames his tools. Now if the computer just plain didn't work, that would be a different story...

      Says the person who has never used a serious CAD or GIS application on non-cutting edge workstation.

      As a person who has supported such workstations, yep you're 100% correct.

      However, in a GIS consulting biz, these machines constituted 10% of the total no of machines. Most people used slower machines or laptops.

      Management also wanted to save on that 10% machines, so SMP Xeon rigs got downgraded to C2D's and at this point in time ArcGIS didn't run well on 64 Bit Server 2003, our own GIS package ran as a 32 bit platform.

      Finally, you get the same problem with GIS and RS analysts. Most are fine, but some beleive there is always a problem with their machine, one even got to the point of inventing problems to try and get a new machine. Even when he got one (fastest machine in the building) he still wasn't happy. I ended up passing this guy on to my manager (hey, it's what they're there for).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    28. Re:What a bunch of dummies by socrplayr813 · · Score: 1

      It is a small company, though not tiny (maybe 50ish, only 15 or so desk folks). He is the only IT guy and he doesn't have direct control over his budget (though he does work with the big wigs when it's set). As far as bitching... I did talk to my boss back when I had that machine and there really wasn't anything either of them could do about it at the time (we're going through some growing pains...).

      Now, the problem in this case is not his budget, it's his priorities. He managed to get a special addition to his budget this year to build new machine for most of our office personnel. While I understand that people want newer computers, he really needs to figure out what everyone's needs are and repurpose some of our older, but still usable machines for the people who only use Word/Outlook, rather than buying them new machines that are marginally faster.

      Also, I've been hearing about a plan to get iPads for the engineering department to use on the production floor while we're working on machines and such. For the things we'd use them for (primarily inputting data, maybe checking specs and such), cheap netbooks would be more effective and much cheaper. We could then put those extra hundreds of dollars toward upgrading our machines to actually run the software we need. Even just another gig of RAM would be a godsend.

      --
      The confidence of ignorance will always overcome the indecision of knowledge.
    29. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      Don't be stupid.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    30. Re:What a bunch of dummies by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      It's probably the RAM. We regularly put in 8 - 12 GB in our CAD workstations.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    31. Re:What a bunch of dummies by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they are actually supposed to be getting me an upgrade to 8GB soon. Will have to upgrade the OS as well, that's why I haven't been forcing the issue.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
  16. bean counters hate computer upgrades? by v1 · · Score: 2

    really? who'd have thought? TYCO

    I work at a computer retail store (and yes we have a biased opinion on the matter) but we try to show business owners that 10 year old computers really are a problem, even when they still work. It's amazing how hard it is to get some people to replace an old computer with a new one, when the old one still (sort of) works. It's so hard to explain productivity loss due to antiquated tools to the people holding the checkbook.

    Numerous times we've had people bring in ancient computers that have died and must now be replaced, and have to treat them to the bad news that their combination of very old hardware and very old software is going to be an extremely unpleasant and expensive experience now, as they have to buy all new computer, all new peripherals (seen a peripheral cost 10k once), all new software (can you say "pagemager", "creative suite" and "quark" for 10 computers?) and all your documents are going to have to go through a painful migration of format. Generally leaves the office in chaos for the next month too. I really feel sorry for those staff.

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    1. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      we try to show business owners that 10 year old computers really are a problem, even when they still work.

      If they still perform the task for which they were intended 10 years ago, why are they a problem?

      The real problem isn't old computers, it's new software. New software comes out which doesn't really do anything better than your old software. But people you do business with upgraded, so now you have to upgrade your software to interoperate with them. But the new software runs more slowly, and now you need new hardware to do the same task you were doing just fine 6 months ago.

      For a stand-alone application, there's nothing wrong with 10 year old computers. Or 20 year old computers, for that matter. DOS still works as well as it ever did.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Might be true some places but certainly not everywhere. Computers don't get slower with age. Something changes, the question is should something be chanting? If your employee workstations are just getting slower, then your IT department is doing a PISS POOR job managing those workstations, and something needs to be done about the IT department not the workstations.

      There are lots of cases where five plus year old PCs should be just fine. Its not as if keying orders and inventory movements into SAP is going go any quicker on a new PC. Its the back end that matters. That machine can stay on the shop floor until it dies!

      Now if you are upgrading software and such, then yes you need to understand the requirements and make sure the hardware is updated to match them. There are lots of cases though where the employees are going to use the same software for five years and longer and might just as well use the same hardware.

      When it comes to software we need to ask ourselves if the new tools are really better as well. Excel 2010 certainly does need more horse power to run on than Excel 2000, but is Bob really going to be able to prep that cost analysis report any faster with 2010 on the latest hardware? My guess is for all but a finite number of special case users the answer is no.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    3. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's assuming the new software doesn't do anything of additional value. Sure, that is the case many times, but it isn't the case when the software integrates with other applications; especially web applications and communication frameworks. With increased integration, you can streamline the work better and provide a better customer experience. For instance, software from 10 years ago can't send text messages or integrate with most content management systems.

    4. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Nofsck+Ingcloo · · Score: 1

      So go find some parts and build them a system that will run the software they use. It would probably save them considerable money and certainly would avoid chaos in the office. Ancient adage: Get the software you need and then buy the computer that runs it.

    5. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      There's such a thing as the "time value of money." Updating before it's economically reasonable means that the money isn't being used on other more productive things. Furthermore, most hardware becomes better and less expensive over time.

      That said, if a user spends a couple of hours a week waiting on the computer, a new one pays for itself in a few months. If the old OS can be installed on the new computer, no need to buy new programs.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    6. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by WhirlwindMonk · · Score: 2

      How on earth did you get modded insightful? I thought slashdot was a place for nerds, you know, people who work in CAD or programming, where hardware (and to a lesser extent, software) upgrades every few years can make a HUGE difference. Also, you say DOS still works as well as it ever did (completely ignoring the fact that "as well as it ever did" is leagues behind what we have now), but as you bring in new people, can you imagine trying to teach someone who has only every worked in Windows XP to use DOS? Or going from AutoCAD 2011 to AutoCAD R12? Why would you want to spend days or weeks training every new employee to use your out of date crap setup, when you can just do a basic upgrade and safely assume that anyone qualified for the position will know how to use it?

    7. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      I've seen lots of deployed systems that still use text UIs.

      Most of the time, the systems work just fine. When they try upgrading the systems, the companies spend millions and often end up with a product worse than what they had before.

    8. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they still perform the task for which they were intended 10 years ago, why are they a problem?

      Let's say the newer and faster computer make you gain 10 minutes per day, time 5 days a week, time 52 weeks a year.
      That's 2600 minutes, or 43 hours.

      43 hours at 30$/hours = 1300$.

    9. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by buback · · Score: 1

      Wrong. a ten year old computer is exactly the same as a ten year old car. It has many mechanical parts that wear out and fail. Dust will get in and foul the fans and heatsinks, causing them to overheat (yes, even with regular cleanings). Dust will also bridge contacts, causing shorts. random cosmic rays will flip bits in your memory and hard drives. capacitors, even, blow at an alarming rate.

      ten years is 87,658 hours of likely continuous operation. that's ~28 billion revolutions of your hard drive.

      The bottom line is that a ten year old computer is a fire hazard. Even if it still 'works', every day it is in your office increases your risk of a business-destroying fire.

    10. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by malignant_minded · · Score: 1

      Remind me again how many security patches XP is still to receive? This is asinine and definately not insightful. If we were talking about programs written for posix ok you can probably make them compile on something new but even that is sometimes doubtful. I just installed Adobe Acrobat Standard 6 on a Win7 computer and I doubt it really works correctly but I got it so the website they use to generate reports using the local machines PDF creator worked (even though the distiller isnt there). It worked fine on 2000 for which it was written then for XP since they are so similar but here we are 10 years later and what am I suppose to do install XP because that is what it worked on? Fuck that! If it doesn't work buy a new version of Adobe Standard or use some free equivalent. Why would I leave a weak XP machine on the network when the purpose of getting a new PC was to move forward and ensure working hardware. I agree that some software is bloated, especially the software I listed but your answer is not helpful.

    11. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      can you imagine trying to teach someone who has only every worked in Windows XP to use DOS?

      Your employees shouldn't be using the OS, they should be using the applications. Training someone on a text based DOS app is easy, they can teach minimum wage cashiers to do it.

      Which do you think is really easier: teaching a new hire how to use an application that everyone around has used forever and never changes, which you only have to teach once per hire, or retraining your entire staff on a brand new platform every 5 years?

      Obviously, if you're hiring someone for their AutoCad 2011 skills, you're going to need to provide them with that platform. If you have a DOS machine hooked up to an instrument with a custom app that collects data and generates reports, which has served your purposes for decades, why would you bother with anything else?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    12. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Problem is, when the hardware dies and needs replaced, where do you go to get replacement hardware that was the norm 10-20 years ago?

    13. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they still perform the task for which they were intended 10 years ago, why are they a problem?

      Things aren't built today with twenty-year-old computer systems in mind. If your 286 built in 1989 fails, are you going to be able to find a reliable equivalent that will be able to properly run the clockspeed-dependent DOS software (without falling back on emulation, which is a kludge)? Remember, this isn't just about replacing that computer. If you can't find a replacement, you'll have to replace the entire industrial system that's attached, since other components are no longer in production. Suddenly, that old-but-functional computer is costing you a couple hundred thousand.

    14. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a stand-alone application, there's nothing wrong with 10 year old computers. Or 20 year old computers, for that matter. DOS still works as well as it ever did.

      Funny you say that. The parking garage I parked in today has the in/out gates controlled by a DOS application.

    15. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...If you have a DOS machine hooked up to an instrument with a custom app that collects data and generates reports, which has served your purposes for decades, why would you bother with anything else?..

      This kind of thinking is the reason there is a such a thing as a "legacy system."

      Hint: It's not a good thing. At all. Please educate yourself a little.

    16. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by starfishsystems · · Score: 1

      The real problem isn't old computers, it's new software.

      It also depends on which software. I'm writing this on a Linux workstation that's 10 years old. It's got a 1.8GHz processor, 512MB of memory. At work, however, I have to use a Windows laptop that's a year old. Processor is 3GHz quad core, memory is 2GB. I find that, on average, I'm twice as productive on the Linux system than on the Windows system. For some tasks, it's more like ten times more productive.

      Some of the difference is certainly attributable to bloat and implementation choices. A cold boot in Windows is much slower than in Linux, for example. But I find that most of the difference in productivity, in steady state, is due to differences in design. The design aspect of either platform hasn't significantly changed over the past decade. Linux is still modular, still highly configurable. It's easy for me to set up applications optimally and automate common tasks. Windows is still monolithic, not meaningfully configurable, and impossible to automate. Therefore it's a much less productive environment for professional work. I'm sure it does fine as a consumer system, but that's not what I need.

      The point I'm illustrating here is that, in the total equation, hardware performance is a minor issue. Choice of software is what dominates the equation. I'm glad I made the right choice. It's saved me a lot of money in useless hardware upgrades.

      --
      Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
    17. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      For a stand-alone application, there's nothing wrong with 10 year old computers. Or 20 year old computers, for that matter. DOS still works as well as it ever did.

      I can actually see your suspenders and beard.

    18. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      I agree with you for the most part, but would like to point out to pieces that need to be added to that. One is that the OS is constantly being changed with security fixes, so it is certainly possible for the IT department to everything right, and still have machines get slower.

      The other thing is that very frequently, the process that users are doing were slow the day the software went into production. It's just that they had to work with the tools that existed at the time. So, it isn't that the computer is getting slower, it is just that a process that used to take an hour could now be done in 10 minutes with a newer faster computer.

      While most people don't do this for work, a good example of the gains that can be made is looking at video transcodeing. Just a few years ago, it took longer to transcode a video than it took to watch it. It was slower than real time. Today, an hour long video can be transcoded in 10 minutes. The hardware from a few years ago didn't get slower, but it is slower than what new hardware will do today.

      Again, I do agree with your general point though. There are many systems that have no need of upgrade.

    19. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      Computers don't get slower with age. Something changes, the question is should something be chanting?

      If your older computers have begun chanting, I think it's fair to say that the machine war is about to begin.

    20. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amazing. The OP gave reasons and concrete examples as to why keeping old computers around causes problems when they die and you talking out of your ass with unsupported blather about how "new software isn't better" (really?) and "there's nothing wrong with 10 year old computers".

      What's even more amazing that three other fools modded you up.

    21. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My home pc is ten years old, but it's still faster and better than the shiny new monster at work. If your computers are slow, give them a drivewipe and when authoring the image file be more cautious about how much software you start on boot. For most office workers of the planet, there's no good economic argument for replacing their pc until it dies, even if it's an old Pentium (although most old Pentium systems could do with more ram).

    22. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until you have a legimitate hardware failure, and some critcal business function is hosed while you scramble around junk shops looking for an old PC that may work, that you may or may not remember how to operate. (Oh crap, I need 610k of conventional memory free. What was that hl trick with emm386?)

      Hiring people competent to work wth antique systems might be more expensive than the upgrades.

    23. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      install XP on a virtual machine, configure everything to save on a shared folder on the guest. restore a clean snapshot every day.

      this reduces administration and security woes to a minimum.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    24. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 1

      We were still using DOS based apps until a couple of years ago. Then we upgraded to a bells and whistles .NET version and everything is slower and buggier, to the extent they had to upgrade all of the machines in the company (think 75 bookshops, plus head office). The software doesn't even have to be compatible with any external companies, we just needed an upgrade because it was there as far as I can tell.

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    25. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by malignant_minded · · Score: 1

      So how many licenses are talking to a domain controller? How is having an XP VM connected to the internet secure? Just because you start from scratch with the same VM doesn't mean someone doesn't learn this pattern and use the 8 hours it is up.

    26. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought slashdot was a place for nerds, you know, people who work in CAD or programming, where hardware (and to a lesser extent, software) upgrades every few years can make a HUGE difference.

      Real programmers spend all their time in their text editor. Don't get me wrong, I would be very happy to run my text editor on a Core i7 but unless it falls out of the sky and lands on my desk for free, I'd rather the company spend money on something else. If you're a CPU-bound programmer, you just might be doing something wrong.

      That isn't to say no one ever needs to compile, but .. you're waiting for it, and have nothing better to do until it finishes? That excuse worked 25 years ago when MS-DOS didn't let you use the computer while compiling (or linking, blech!) but now it's hard to believe.

    27. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by ViridianSage · · Score: 1

      The last time I saw a dos based POS system was a credit card running app some 7 years ago.

    28. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your older computers have begun chanting, I think it's fair to say that the machine war is about to begin.

      Mine's chanting something like "Ohm...Ohm...Ohm...Resistance is futile."

      Should I be concerned?

    29. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Actually 10 year old computers are probablly the worst in many ways. Older computers are actually better.

      10 years old would put a computer arround the time when capacitor plauge was coming in. It would also put it arround the time when power consuption was getting high enough to seriously burn stuff up but before AMD and it's partners had got a handle on how to stop stuff burning up (intel to their credit got a handle on this much earlier).

      Even if it still 'works', every day it is in your office increases your risk of a business-destroying fire.

      Do you have any stats to back that up or is it just conjecture. I'd think the combination of flame retardent PCB substrates (i'm pretty sure these were in place by 10 years ago, please correct me if i'm wrong) and metal cases should make the risk of a fire spreading out of the PC pretty damn low.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    30. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      1) one. the host can be a linux box running virtualbox or vmware.
      2) set networking to NATed, instead of bridge, running XP with direct contact with the internet is dangerous in any situation.
      3) if you have proper firewalls, don't run unnecessary services, don't browse for por from inside the VM and use best practices in general, how would someone knows you're there or that you're starting from a snapshot every day ? what makes you think your XP machine is so important that people will dedicate several days|weeks to learn it's "patterns".

      oh, and... if you're running an important service for an entire network out of an XP box... you're insane. this kind of thing is why MSFT sells _server_ versions of windows.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    31. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by ajlisows · · Score: 1

      For Power Users and such this is definitely true but most people in an office are going to be running Word, Excel, Outlook, Acrobat Reader, IE, and a client for their business system. I have quite a few users where I work running 7 year old computers and they really don't even complain. I extended the life on those by purchasing a bunch of DDR memory 3 or so years ago when it was dirt cheap. I think I paid $23 a stick for a GB of memory. 256MB to 1.25 GB makes a big difference. The engineering workstations? No way could I have boxes that old out there. There would be a mutiny.

      Really, the users that do complain have been the ones that whined to management to get admin rights and proceeded to demolish their computer once every 6 months. They'll say "Man, my computer really sucks. IT has to wipe it out twice a year or I can't use it. I really need a new one." If you are lucky enough to have users who take decent care of their machines you can survive with older hardware.

      Now monitors on the other h

    32. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by georgesdev · · Score: 1

      oh yes, new software can be a problem!
      my company's software used to run on 256MB of ram machine. I could run a cluster of 2 virtual machines on a 1GB laptop!
      Today my company's software needs 8GB of ram, which is fine for production, but not for my usage.
      It would be fine if we had 8 or 16GB laptops, but we don't. And don't tell me about vista, windows 7, office 2010, etc ...

    33. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But people you do business with upgraded, so now you have to upgrade your software to interoperate with them

      And this is exactly why it's a problem.

      Show me the business that is truly free to not have to care about interoperability of it's software/documents etc. with its customers or suppliers, is able to use 10+ year old hardware and software today, and still be profitable.
      Alternatively, unless you're someone like Microsoft or Google or the Federal Government, show me the business that gets to dictate to its customers and suppliers when, how or even if they upgrade their hardware/software.

      The real world (or at least the vast majority of it) simply doesn't work like that.

    34. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by JobyOne · · Score: 1

      If you use your workstation exclusively for 10-year-old programs or 20-year-old programs I think it's very likely your job is stupid and could be automated in a pinch.

      For example, at my workplace we have 20 processes (software written 15 years ago) on an old AS/400 that handle an absolutely business critical task that is executed at the behest of terminals state-wide. There's a (fairly common) case that (luckily only during business hours) causes one of those process to fail and not restart. Somebody in IT has to be watching those 20 tasks at all times to restart any that fail.

      There's a fix available, but nobody has felt like coming in overnight to apply it when the box resets at 3:00 in the morning. So for the last six months there's been a man-day wasted every single day to watching the AS/400 like a hawk every minute of every hour.

      I find that often needing to touch extremely dated applications on a daily basis is a symptom of larger, nastier IT atrophy.

      This story is one of the many reasons I thank my lucky stars almost daily that I switched my major partway through and went into graphic design instead of IT or programming.

      --
      Porquoi?
    35. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      What distro of Linux are you using? Cause RHEL takes forever to cold boot or reboot compared to Windows 7. Even a heavily loaded Win7 system with lots of startup tasks seems to take about the same amount of time to boot for me.

      Server 2008R2 I haven't used outside of virtualized environments, so the quick boot there I expect is more due to KVM being efficient than the OS. (I.e. Win7 and XP also reboot quickly)

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    36. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      So don't run it on your laptop? Why don't you have a Dev VM host that can run 8GB VMs for you to remote in to? Or you might make the case for a workstation replacement laptop like Lenovo's W520 which you *can* put 16GB of RAM in.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    37. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by starfishsystems · · Score: 1

      CentOS 5.1. It would probably be on FC something or other, except that the system has two video cards, three disk controllers, eight disks and two DVD drives. Turns out to be hard to find a release that supports everything.

      --
      Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
    38. Re:bean counters hate computer upgrades? by georgesdev · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what I'm saying. New software will push to get a new laptop or new small form factor server.

  17. Easy cure by Chrisq · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Any smashed PC is replaced by the oldest in stock. new replacements for those which reach the budgeted life intact.

    1. Re:Easy cure by Lunaritian · · Score: 1

      They would just keep destroying them. Then when a worker finally gets a shiny new computer, he will complain that it's barely faster than the last one. Much better to just buy a new computer immediately.

      Or maybe it would be even better to get a new worker instead.

    2. Re:Easy cure by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 2

      Any smashed PC is replaced by the oldest in stock. new replacements for those which reach the budgeted life intact.

      More of a symptomatic treatment than a cure, though. Those old machines are gonna "wear out" faster than a new one. Either that, or your people start building Wally-style computer catapults. There's always an engineering solution.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    3. Re:Easy cure by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      If someone is breaking PCs intentionally, its much better to fire them, not give them a new PC.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    4. Re:Easy cure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easier solution:

      Any smashed pc is replaced with a new one, out of the employee's paycheque.

  18. True story. by grub · · Score: 1

    Not PCs but SGI machines...

    We had an old SGI Challenge machine, size of a refrigerator. It owed us nothing but there was user inertia keeping the thing running and in use.

    I moved all the data to another box then actually took apart the old Challenge one weekend. Removed all the boards, 7 or 8 iirc, destroyed the hard disks and moved the machine to the shipping docks.

    The various ~40cm x ~40cm boards are around the building in various geeks' offices (I have 4 here). It was a well made machine and would probably still have people on it had I not killed it off.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  19. Re:smash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm going to assume she was unsackably married to someone.

  20. Work smarter not harder by tsalmark · · Score: 2

    New computers are great but work habits can increase the productivity of a tool also. I keep seeing people complain about the speed of email then go over and see 100 email windows open. Or someone will have movies running in the background and complain that Excel is slow. So do you throw more hardware at the problem, close unneeded programs or learn better work habits?

    1. Re:Work smarter not harder by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      I have a 3 year old laptop on which I have to run a software suite which is woefully inefficient.

      Copying 3-4 sheets of function block logic from one controlle to another (control system stuff) generates anywhere from 3 to 10 gigabytes of disk traffic due to the insanity of no caching for ANY sort of query or check in the application.
      The vendor wont fix it as they consider the product "too old" to fix, but this product runs the control system on at least 20 oil/gas installations in Norway and over 400 industrial plants in the US.... meh I say.

      An SSD would be quite nice to have... It would also be nice to have more than a gig of ram... Especially when the data-sets I work with frequently wont fit in ram...

      But alas, the laptop has to reach 4 years of age until I can get a replacement or upgrade...

      The past week I have spent at least 5 hours just -waiting- for operations to finish. As the operations hog all the disk io it is near impossible to get anything else done at the same time without going utterly mad.

      Oh... and dont get me started on the utter insanity of working with huge spreadsheets on a 14 inch display....

    2. Re:Work smarter not harder by tsalmark · · Score: 1

      I wasn't trying to say lost productivity always the end users fault. You sound like a prime candidate for needing more hardware. Sadly rules are often made for the average population, forgetting that an average population is made up of individuals, not all of them average.

    3. Re:Work smarter not harder by Cato · · Score: 1

      Definitely - having too many tabs open in Firefox (50 plus) is really a killer, and Chrome is no better. Once the browser is taking over 500 MB, and often well over 1 GB, Windows will start paging out a large chunk of most programs and the whole PC starts slowing down.

      On Windows, it really helps to run Process Explorer to find memory hogs and keeping an eye out to make sure that the "commit charge" memory usage is well below 100% of the physical RAM. Process Explorer is the single most important utility on any Windows PC - would be great if Linux had something as good as this. See http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653 for Process Explorer - also lets you pause processes, see the process hierarchy, track I/O volume per process, find open files, etc.

    4. Re:Work smarter not harder by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      Also by people who have no clue about technology unfortunately.

      This is a tech company and the only allowed browser is IE. Why? Because all other browsers are insecure.
      Why you ask?

      * They dont support 'mcafee script scan'...
      * They are mostly open source, and open source software is by definition a security risk. (......)
      * Open source software is a legal liability as the company does not have a license agreement for use of the software.
      (oh yes, they actually claim that the GPL is not an actual license but something 'pretend' and that at any time they could get sued for using such software. Buy photoshop for doing minor adjustments to color of images, dont use gimp! After all, if we all buy photoshop the price is so much lower!)

      Oh, and department managers get the "+p" version of machines as they need the power for driving the office suite at optimal performance. The rest of us who run multiple virtual machines on our laptops for testing purposes get the regular office-worker machines :p

      Meh... I should stop or I'll just keep ranting for hours :p

    5. Re:Work smarter not harder by georgesdev · · Score: 1

      would be great if Linux had something as good as this

      of course it has. just look at http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/top-linux-monitoring-tools.html

    6. Re:Work smarter not harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mmm... perhaps a standard corporate utility which gives the foreground application and keyboard/mouse priority access to the CPU? Anyone in the know could disable it fairly easily, but for the majority it might at least give the appearance of faster response.

    7. Re:Work smarter not harder by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      I have to say I'm pretty impressed by Comodo Killswitch, or if you don't want the AV stuff and/or hate Comodo, the Open Source tool that it's based on ProcessHacker.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
  21. But why? by mmcuh · · Score: 0

    Some people take their job much too seriously. So you have a slow computer, so you might get less work done. So what? It's not your problem, it's your employer's.

    1. Re:But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you stay an extra hour or two each week for no extra pay....

    2. Re:But why? by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      sounds like you need a good union

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  22. Aluminium Foil by lingland · · Score: 1

    All I'm saying is a little bit of Aluminimium Foil can work wonders for getting a new computer...

    1. Re:Aluminium Foil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does a new hat get you your new computer?

  23. Railroad workers did the same thing 100 years ago by AnalogDiehard · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Over 100 years ago, many railroads were tightwads and wouldn't issue new lanterns to conductors and brakemen to replace their aging ones. They finally would ditch their lanterns over a river bridge as they approached the yard limits, then report the lanterns as missing to the yardmaster who would issue them a new lantern.

    --
    Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
  24. Cheap netbook faster than company-issue kit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sad but true. Six-month old company-issue laptop poor quality, slow and heavy. $300 netbook I bought outperforms it and is now machine of choice for everything but timecards and billing. Goes into the bag with the airport express for travel.

  25. Could be worse... by benbean · · Score: 1

    I suspect often times a bit of extra memory, or a software cleanup would be the solution, and a bit of proactivity on the part of the employer would help. Still, could be worse, I recall my Dad, a journalist, telling me that when he started work in the 60s his typewriter was supplied by the newspaper up front, but he had to pay it off in weekly instalments from his salary. Of course, it was decades rather than months/years before it was obsolete.

    --
    It's a Unix system - I know this.
  26. Re:smash by Stewie241 · · Score: 1

    I assumed that "after that her replacement was the one that recieved a shiny new one" implied that she was fired and somebody else was hired in her stead. Maybe I read too much into it.

  27. Done that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've upgraded the CPU from a Celeron to a Dual Core and the RAM from 2GB to 4GB with my own money because I was fed up with having a slow machine. At the end of the day, I get rewarded for productivity, so I just viewed this as a slight reduction in my bonus. Rather spend it on the PC I use > 8 hours a day than the one at home that gets used 4 hours a week.

    1. Re:Done that by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      That would be great if only our companies would let us do that. Most won't, even at our own expense.

  28. Re:smash by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 4, Funny

    You apparently failed to notice the the phrase 'her replacement'.

    --
    I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
  29. Why not DIY? by ShooterNeo · · Score: 1

    Personally, there's nothing I hate more than a slow computer. But, basic upgrades that make the typical dust bunny filled corporate Dell shit-box are pretty easy. The darn thing probably needs more RAM and an SSD. Most of the time, you can swap those out without the IT weenies even noticing. Just clone the hard drive over and swap sticks for the memory. Yeah, you might lose the parts you bought in a year or two when the IT boys come to collect your machine without asking, but a few hundred bucks is worth it when it saves hours of aggravation.

    1. Re:Why not DIY? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then you have a bad it dept. We would notice here since we have spiceworks running that scans everynight. I would notice the next morning when i check spiceworks and the ram and hdd are different.

    2. Re:Why not DIY? by FreonTrip · · Score: 1

      An SSD is a nicety, but not really necessary for most of these problematic old systems. Slap a cheap stick or two of DDR2 into a system, perform a stealth CPU upgrade with something you'd already decommissioned from your private stash, and a low-end discrete graphics card ("Yes, of course it's so I can use dual-head..."), and if you've done any kind of reasonable software tweaking, it won't even feel like the same computer.

    3. Re:Why not DIY? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just did exactly that. $50 to max out the memory and a 10-minute LGA775 BSEL mod and I have the quickest computer in the office... sad, really.

    4. Re:Why not DIY? by cranky_slacker · · Score: 1

      We *love* you. What do you think happens when we collect your PC and find unauthorized upgrades? Let's just say that us 'IT Weenies' have a big box of free, new-ish spare parts to use as we please (usually for personal projects) because you're dumb enough to go out of *your* pocket. Thank you.

      Maybe in the future you could try sticking to your own job and let us do ours. We hate slow computers as much as you do (if not more), but what we hate more is getting reamed for going over-budget with needless upgrades.

    5. Re:Why not DIY? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I'm sure you'd immediately start the paperwork to write up that employee for messing with your computers. Because they're your little children... and it's your job to teach those stupid fucking users some proper discipline, right?

      I bet you were the kind of guy who enjoyed running to the playground supervisor and telling on the other kids when they did something that was against the rules.

    6. Re:Why not DIY? by FreonTrip · · Score: 1

      Yep. A big $7.50 for that stick of RAM, $5 for a secondhand Sound Blaster Audigy, and a free Quadro NVS 285 given by a friend, and my office PC's gone from unbearable to worth using. Why the Audigy? Because Dell shielded the audio so badly on this thing that even moving a USB mouse creates interference.

    7. Re:Why not DIY? by FreonTrip · · Score: 1

      In what way is this an undesirable outcome, then? In all honesty, if a given employee upgrades a company system to circumvent the request / acquisition process, and IT gets to sponge off whatever's been left in the systems (since the brought-from-home hardware is off the books), is there any reasonable objection to be voiced? If you cite needless upgrades - which can be a very real problem - as a major money sink for a company, but then turn around and ridicule him for spending his own money to make himself more productive and happier, what's his option supposed to be? Just suffer with sluggishness? It sounds like both parties get a nice benefit the old way.

  30. The Best Way by AndersBrownworth · · Score: 1

    The best way to get what you need is to buy it yourself. I'd rather buy monitors than try to explain / convince people why more screen real estate makes me more productive.

    1. Re:The Best Way by MyLongNickName · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wow. What a horrible idea. Never, ever, donate money to your employer. And even if you take it with you when you quit, you have donated money to your employer.

      As a manager, it is MY job to give you the tools to make you more productive. If I am not making the right trade-offs, then I am not doing my job. And if I am not doing my job, you shouldn't make me look good by donating from your own pocket.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    2. Re:The Best Way by kenh · · Score: 1

      Done right, this shows initiative.

      Done wrong, you could really cause a shit-storm in an office area ("Why does he have two monitors?", "Why can't I have two monitors?")

      --
      Ken
    3. Re:The Best Way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly I've done the same thing (buying a second monitor)... Had to find an agp video card (yes my work computer is that old) with two dvi ports too. The $100 I spent was well worth it in my mind to not have to deal with management, plus I get to add another monitor to my collection when I quit!

  31. The real problem... by MetalliQaZ · · Score: 1

    I've thought about smashing mine in a fit of blinding rage many times, but fortunately I know that the hardware in my laptop is actually pretty good. The reason the machine doesn't work so well is that it is bogged down with a host of security and asset management products that leave the laptop constantly IO-bound. I'm sure I will end up buying my own hard drive online and swapping it out so I can have my own operating system.

    Why would I want another laptop setup by the outsourced techno-goons that only care about providing the bare minimum service to satisfy the contract and conspire to lock us in?

    -d

    --
    "Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
    1. Re:The real problem... by Lunaritian · · Score: 1

      There was an article in a Finnish computer magazine about this. Even though Finland used to be pretty much the best country when it comes to IT, nowadays most workplaces and schools have really bad computers full of security software that slows them down even more. The most popular solution is to bring your own laptop to work, which not only makes all that security useless, but is a huge security risk in itself. But, as someone said, "everything that really works is banned".

  32. Only 25%? by SniperJoe · · Score: 1

    Frankly, I'm surprised that it's only 25%. I've had colleagues who have taped over the exhaust ports on their laptops to cause overheating issues.

  33. Re:smash by _Shad0w_ · · Score: 2

    "...after that her replacement was the one that received a shiny new one", ie she was fired and whoever got taken on to replace her got the new machine.

    --

    Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.

  34. Re:smash by kenh · · Score: 1

    The parent you responded to did.

    It worked until she moved to a floor with security camera's and was caught...after that her replacement was the one that recieved a shiny new one.

    --
    Ken
  35. self upgrades by KDN · · Score: 1

    At an old job I did a number of upgrades to office equipment. Some of the office equipment was so old I took parts I retired from my home system and put them into the work ones. I've added memory, replaced hard drives, added a NIC so I could do testing on an isolated segment that I controlled, even added an internal fan to help cool off a system that was always overheating. I rescued systems that were to be tossed because "they are too old to run the operating system" (they thought Linux was an application) for test DNS, NTP and other servers. Sometimes its just easier to bring stuff in from home than trying to fight through the procurement process.

  36. Worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In my organization the "receptionist" class of employe have knowingly installed malware on their machines so they can be sent home for the afternoon.

    1. Re:Worse by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      People without the absolute need for it, should not have removable media drives, accessible USB ports, internet access, or the ability to add software. This is work, not playtime.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  37. As a Manager by MyLongNickName · · Score: 2

    I am an IT Manager. It is important to me that our users are productive and making sure that they are not fighting their means of prodcution is critical in this.

    If someone's PC truly is the problem, it is replaced. When I first started at this company, folks had one monitor, had outdated equipment and there were a lot of legitimate problems that we prioritized and took care of.

    Then you get the whiners. "I need a wireless mouse to be productive". "My coworker has 4GB of RAM and I only have 3GB" (Yeah... I see you playing solitaire two hours a day... I doubt the RAM is your productivity bottleneck). Part of my job is to be the asshole and say no to things. Usually, I win... sometimes I lose :)

    So if a worker has to smash a PC to get a legitimate upgrade, there is an IT problem (that may stem from an Accounting problem). But in many cases, it is a whiny worker who needs to be dealt with.

    --
    See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    1. Re:As a Manager by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Don't jump to the conclusion that users are the problem. Your own story points out that your predecessor was woefully inadequate as an IT manager.

  38. Just because they say it, doesn't mean they do it. by mr.nobody · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All IT people have heard the joke, "Well, if I take a hammer to it..." But that doesn't mean they do it. From the article, the headline reads as though users are causing deliberate damage to their computers in order to receive an upgrade. Read the actual text however, and while users are saying that, there isn't anything presented to show there are widespread acts of vandalism happening. The only real takeaway from this article is that some UK offices are using significantly outdated equipment. The headline is just sensationalism. I hate to say it, but I think /. fell for this one.

    --
    mr.nobody
    --Don't you wanna go where nobody knows your name?
  39. Standards by U8MyData · · Score: 1

    In a previous life, we utilized a PC rotation standard. The policy was such that no one would have a PC more than 5 years old. The intent was at the time to keep the harware fresh and to utilize service and support from the vendor. The Servers were treated much the same way. This had great benefit from the end user to the network admins (me++). I would gather it might be harder to implement these days...

    1. Re:Standards by kenh · · Score: 1

      My employer (public school district in USA) has just adopted a 10 year replacement cycle. They think because they can keep such a computer running at home that long, the district should be able to as well... I blame the extra long life of Windows XP for that mindset.

      Do you know what a 10 year old PC is like? They tend to max out at 1 Gig of PC133 RAM (at least the class of machines we bought ten years ago)...

      --
      Ken
    2. Re:Standards by U8MyData · · Score: 1

      Oh, yes I do know. I was going to write something about the additional labor, time, and resources it takes to implement a "duct tape & bailing wire" approach to IT. I feel for you. This is an arguement that generally falls on deaf ears for a couple of reasons but generally it is offensive to those who "know" more than the people who run things. ;-)

    3. Re:Standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet I could still play a mad game of GTA-3 while browsing the web and coding some shit in VC++ on a Gig of PC-133.

    4. Re:Standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No kidding. Until recently I had to put up with a seven year old tower that would completely bog down when the antivirus scans ran. My company's policy was replacement every 4-5 years, but the replacement budget kept disappearing. Finally after they proudly announced that all CRTs had been replaced by LCD monitors and I got invited to bring my laptop to one too many meetings ...

      I told my manager I would borrow a cart from IT, to bring my ancient tower and creaky CRT to the next meeting. He got the point.

  40. BYOC is the way to go by shadowrat · · Score: 1

    I have long been a proponent of bring your own computer plans. I've been using my own machines at work for years now. My employer's cool with it. I get the machine i want. I upgrade it when i want. I get to file a tax deduction because i need it for work. Financially it seems to make sense both for me and my employer. The way i see it, some jobs require a closet full of $2000 + suits, mine just requires that i buy a nice machine every 1.5 - 2 years.

    I am aware that some employers even give out a stipend for computers (and clothes).

    I understand there are implications for IT. It's easier to support a homogenous locked down network, etc. But, i think people also take better care of the machines when they own them.

    I'm a programmer, so i'm what i would consider a competent user. I know what i need. I know how to service my stuff. We do have sales people and project managers who do the same thing though. It's worked well for them.

    1. Re:BYOC is the way to go by sarhjinian · · Score: 1

      But, i think people also take better care of the machines when they own them.

      Have you seen most people's home PCs? I mean, aside from the state of the operating system and software, the actual machine is usually crawling with dust bunnies.

      I know how to service my stuff. We do have sales people and project managers who do the same thing though. It's worked well for them.

      The problem is that it doesn't scale, and many, many clerical users (receptionists, order-takers, warehouse staff, etc) cannot or will not do so. And since you need these people to do those jobs at that salary, you need a way to mitigate the problems they create. We eventually went with thin clients because they're nigh-indestructable, and b) we can lock down the server OS, change it, patch it, destroy profiles and re-create them, etc, etc, all far more quickly than we could a desktop PC. Do they complain? Yes, on occasion, but these are the kind of people who complain all the time. They're very functionally fixated, and you, as IT, have the job to make the system work such that they never hit situations that cause them trouble.

      It's worked so well that we're considering something like XenDesktop or VMware View for our thick clients, and why we carte-blanche gave iPads to executives who don't create content. Desktop management sucks, and anything you can do to abstract the user's environment from the hardware and OS makes everything easier for everyone. We did a VMware View PoC a few months back, and it blew the user's mind when we restored their desktop to the previous day's iteration when they buggered it up, or when they saw their laptop stolen and we just dropped their most recent View image on the replacement PC.

      --
      --srj/mmv
    2. Re:BYOC is the way to go by djhertz · · Score: 1

      We are using an idea like this at my shop. We are about 10 people and I run the tech, if we were bigger it probably would not work. I don't lock boxes down. We let people who want to pick out what they work with, you want a desktop with 3 monitors? Sure. A 17" laptop? Sure. A great travel 15" laptop, fine. Mac Pro? No problem. And when asked, "Can I install X, Y, Z on it?" Sure, it's yours basically, do whatever you'd like with it. And when you have problems we'll try and help you fix YOUR machine, while we are blowing it away and resetting it up YOU can use this old machine for 2 days. It's a tool to do your job, do what you want with it.

      Basically I've found that if you have them think of that machine as theirs, they treat it better. So instead of their mindset being, "Well, I'll just download this, my antivirus will stop me if it's bad and IT can deal with it" They have been thinking, "It's probably not worth messing with, I don't want to screw up MY computer."

      Like I said, we are willing to help them, but I tell them straight up that it is their laptop/desktop to use. When some people leave we've just let them take their old laptop with them. I mean, they picked it out, it's got the stuff they want on it, and it's 2 years old, take it. The new guy will want to pick his own stuff out.

      If we grew much bigger though we'd need more in the line of policy.

      --
      Modest doubt is called the beacon of the wise - William Shakespeare
  41. I think the biggest question is... by Haedrian · · Score: 1

    ...do they need it?

    If your job is mostly using word processing, do you really need a Windows 7 Quad-core with 4GB of RAM? Or do you just want it because its shiny?

    A development company I worked with was moving its PCs to Windows 7, and souping them up with a ton of RAM and that sort of thing. But its because we needed that sort of power. But the way I see most offices working.. if your software still works and you can do your job, what's the complaining about?

    1. Re:I think the biggest question is... by kenh · · Score: 1

      A hyperthreading P4 with 2 gigs of RAM and IDE or SATA HD with integrated graphics is FINE for Win7, Office 2010 for casual use. No serious delays, but casual users don't (in my opinion) accumulate 30+ open applications/windows in one session...

      Personally I won't buy anything with less than two actual cores, but a hyper-threaded 3.0 GHz P4 is still a capable machine.

      --
      Ken
    2. Re:I think the biggest question is... by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      Intel Pentium 4 Vs. Atom: A Battle Of The Generations, Conclusion

      Eight Years Are Enough!

      In the end, there’s a simple conclusion for everyone who wants a low cost system: keep your old Pentium 4 system if you have to, but bear in mind that all relevant metrics (performance, noise, power, and efficiency) are pathetic by modern standards.

      If you can afford to spend a few hundred dollars on a nettop, we’d definitely recommend this. We usually rant about Atom due to its shortcomings compared to desktop platforms, but it simply trounces the old P4s. Keeping a PC in service for seven or eight years is more than enough. Just make sure you go for a dual-core Atom when you decide to buy.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    3. Re:I think the biggest question is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it's not. Have you every seen the loads of scanners and crap IT can load up on a typical machine? As a developer, I see that I don't need all that much of a machine, but it's the scanners I'm saddled with that need the horsepower.

    4. Re:I think the biggest question is... by toddestan · · Score: 1

      P4's are still perfectly fine for many uses. Like the parent, I have a P4 HT 3.0 Ghz 2GB system that runs Vista, and the performance is perfectly acceptable for Office, browsing the web, downloading torrents, and other tasks like that. It was even fine when it still had 1GB of ram in it. It's not so good at playing back 1080P videos, and compiling on it is noticeably slower than a Core 2 Duo, but a lot of people probably don't need to do those kind of things.

      Looking at their benchmarks, I'd have to say it's a tossup. A P4 is faster than the Atom for some things, for other things the Atom is faster. So if you already have a functional P4, I don't see any real reason to go out and spend hundreds on a new Atom system for very similar performance. Sure, the power savings will eventually add up, but you're talking years, especially if the computer is powered off when it's not being used.

  42. What is the problem with the hardware? by crossmr · · Score: 1

    an aging computer, should perform as it did when bought. Unless it's actually failing and not just aging. Computers generally either work or don't work, and rarely do they half work, or generally slow down.

    If software is changing and being run on machines which aren't beefy enough to support it, that's one thing, if workers are just clogging up their machines with bonzai buddy and the like that's a different thing.

    1. Re:What is the problem with the hardware? by Arlet · · Score: 1

      Software usually gets updated, and the newer versions are often bigger and slower.

    2. Re:What is the problem with the hardware? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Computers generally either work or don't work, and rarely do they half work, or generally slow down.

      ROFLMAO

      I've seen loads of cases where computers sort of work but are either much slower than expected and/or crash frequently. Sometimes it's a software problem (e.g. the bonzai buddy you mention but also good old viruses or even just bad but "legit" software), sometimes it's a hardware problem (e.g. overheating processor, dying hard drive or faulty ram).

      If software is changing

      Unless you live in a world without virus scanners and with no patches software does change. The basic software may stay at the same headline versions but patches, virus scanner updates and whatever other crap IT dreams up tends to increase the load on machines over time.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  43. Wow companies provide computers?? by Anon-Admin · · Score: 1

    The last three I worked for told me I had to provide my own desktop system. It was part of there cost savings plan, Everyone brings in there personal laptop or desktop to work on. Saved the companies millions of $ in hardware and upgrade costs.

    1. Re:Wow companies provide computers?? by Slutticus · · Score: 1

      I always wondered why more companies didn't do this. Offer a bare bones minimal laptop for those who don't want or don't have their own, and then let people use their personal machine if they want to. Instal the corporate software on it and sign a release form saying the data on the computer belongs to the company (while the hardware is yours bla bla bla).

      I suspect a large percentage of people would want to use their own simply for convenience if not because they have a better machine than they could get from IT. Plus, you could even use it as a deduction on your taxes as a work expense (hello April 18th!). But I guess if most of the cost is related to software as opposed to hardware, this wouldn't make any sense.

    2. Re:Wow companies provide computers?? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      I would think eventually, it would end up costing the companies. I would think the IT costs would skyrocket, with each system being different, and having to support all kinds of various cheap hardware purchased at Best Buy intended for home use. Not to mention a significant portion of your workbase would probably balk at spending any money and would respond by hauling it whatever is sitting in their closets for free.

      Then you have the problem of confidential data. What happens when an employee leaves the company, and takes their hardware with them? What happens when an employee decides to replace their work system, then takes their old one home and sells it in a garage sale without cleaning it first?

      Granted, I would like the ability to be able to spec my own system, and if I had some kind of stipend to purchase the computer then I would be all for the system. But I just don't see how it would work on a large scale.

  44. Indubitably by virgnarus · · Score: 1

    I remember even back working in fast food the owner of the company did his tour of the restaurants and came to ours. One of our managers casually mentioned the worthless state our 80's cash registers were in and requested new ones several times but to no avail. The owner's response? "Spray it."

    Always have to work where corporations take the reactive approach to IT rather than preventive. It only seems like the upper echelons of the IT department harbor any reliability through security and other various upgrade paths. The typical employee notices this and will try to bring a bit of incentive by forcing the company to react based on their upgrade methodology.

    I'm glad that I'm working in a position now that allows me to implement a more accommodating method for upgrades to the research division I work for by being able to work directly with the boss to fund improvements I purchase for them. They're happy that they don't have to wait forever for an upgrade, and I'm happy that I don't have to upgrade because I'm in a condition where I am forced to do so.

  45. Novell Netware by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

    I'm still amazed AD can't match the features Netware had 20 years ago.

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    1. Re:Novell Netware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AD is pretty lacking in general shittiness.

    2. Re:Novell Netware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "General shittiness" is about the only area in which AD is not lacking.

    3. Re:Novell Netware by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Incorrect, AD has an abundance of general shittyness. Almost as much shittyness as Exchange.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:Novell Netware by sigipickl · · Score: 1

      I was in High School 20 years ago and not until 1992 was I even exposed to NetWare (as a client user in college, I remember everything being menu driven. wow, that was a long time ago...). I'm interested- what did NetWare then do then that AD doesn't do now?

      I am not trying to troll or discount your comment- I'm truly interested. I have also heard a bunch of folks talk up eDirectory being the shit as well, but have yet to come across it.

      --
      Never trust anyone who takes pride in being called a 'geek'....
  46. If hitler was here now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He would put IE6 and Blackberry users in the shower.

  47. Re:smash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is no one going to mention destruction of company property = firing?

    Someone did (implicitly):

    ...her replacement...

  48. Feature Creep sucks by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    The Bean counters look at the specs and software you're running, never mind the fact that the last 10 patches have tripled the memory footprint and quadrupled CPU usage.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  49. That really happened on a job I worked by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 1

    More than 10 years ago I worked for a US office of a multinational, but foreign company. One of the testers in our department was complaining that the PCs he was given for testing were too underpowered and old to be of any use. Our manager agreed but since the PCs were still working, they couldn't be replaced. However, if they, oh I don't know, suddenly developed severe hardware problems that prevented them from booting, then they could be replaced (wink wink, nudge nudge). I still remember seeing the tester working in a back test lab room to short out the motherboards of some PCs so they could be replaced. When the tester reported that his test PCs wouldn't boot, our manager did approve buying replacements. Bureaucracy sometimes requires creative solutions.

    1. Re:That really happened on a job I worked by RichM · · Score: 1

      The throwaway culture like this really pisses me off when you have people in developing countries who would have their lives greatly improved by having access to a computer, even without an internet connection.
      Unfortunately, it would cost them about 2 years of wages to even afford a basic one.

    2. Re:That really happened on a job I worked by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Yeah, too bad he didn't do something like unplug the hard drive cable. Then they could be all like "Oh-no! It doesn't boot! I need a new one!" (nudge nudge wink wink). Then later, it could mysteriously start working again....

      Of course, this being 2001 then maybe we're talking about 386's here.

  50. Slashdotted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently the admin smashed the server too in order to get a new one...

      : (

  51. The coming end of the enterprise desktop by cwgmpls · · Score: 1

    With the increasing computing and communication power of consumer devices that everyone carries with them every day, we may eventually see the end of enterprise computers for the end user. Especially for smaller organizations, rather than trying to maintain a couple dozen computers across the organization, it may be more productive to take the same money and divide it among the employees as a stipend to maintain their own personal devices -- laptop, smartphone, whatever they need to be productive. In today's workplace, workers are often expected to be productive and stay connected throughout the day and on weekends. People are generally more productive with devices they own, understand and maintain themselves. Secure connections can be established between the end-user device and sensitive corporate applications and data, and strict data retention policies can be enforced. People are bringing their consumer device to work anyway -- why not leverage those instead of maintaining enterprise-wide desktops?

  52. Aldous Huxley was spot on... by Rhodri+Mawr · · Score: 1

    Repeat after me: Ending is better than mending, ending is better than mending. (Brave New World)

    1. Re:Aldous Huxley was spot on... by WMD_88 · · Score: 1

      Wasn't it "spending" is better?

    2. Re:Aldous Huxley was spot on... by Rhodri+Mawr · · Score: 1

      No it wasn't. The full quote from Chapter 4 of Brave New World was:

      "Ending is better than mending. The more stitches, the less riches." which was repeated thousands of times to the children.

      Typical Slashdot moderation: incorrect reply scores higher than correct post.

  53. Re:Same old bottleneck by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I installed Nt 4 on a 75 mHz desktop, thinking I might go MSCE or something. If something was reading the hard disk, I could watch every control get painted. Erase, draw the outline, put the letters on, do a checkbox. Start task manager to see what is taking up the CPU, 20 minutes for that to load. Then I see CPU usage is only about 50%. Why? Windows 98 on the same machine did not have the same problem, so it wasn't the hardware.

    I wish I knew. I get the same thing on Vista with a dual-core 2.5 gHz processor. Outlook refuses to show me meeting info. It's not responding, then slowly responding, then paints the reminder window. Can't see the dial-in number, waiting for it to paint. Get 3 instant messages - are you joining? Yeah, paste me the number and i'll be right there.

    PC backup, antivirus, update scans, hard drive maintenance - any prolonged disk activity brings the computer to a halt. It's not just me - yesterday we had a chief architect say "Id bring that up but my backup just started" and everyone said "oh, yeah we know."

    Simple version: my notebook is slower than my previous XP one, and I just tolerate it until we get the OK to move to Windows 7, and hope it's slightly faster because the processor is faster. It won't be, because it will have a 4 million GB drive at 5400 RPM.

    With Windows NT, storage has always been the bottleneck. At least until you throw enough memory at it that it can hold all your apps plus an ample disk cache. Backup, antivirus, etc. tasks use a lot of non-cached data, and there goes your advantage.

  54. Re:smash by Jurily · · Score: 1

    So that's why that sentence didn't parse... I kept thinking about what that "shiny new one" was and where did they "replace" it for her.

  55. But they HAVE a pc to begin with... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only about a decade ago,

    in a midsize ICT organization somewhere on this planet there existed a policy, that a new employee had to have his PC approved by no less than the Chairman of the Board. It is likely not too much to ask in terms of imagination, that a given Board might have had more important things on the agenda than a single PC purchase approval.

    Hence, this approval was being postponed week after week, month after month....

    I recall someone actually going out and buying a PC with his own money, after being sufficiently bored with nothing to do.
    I am constantly amazed at the utter stupidity mankind is capable of. Meaning both the policy, and the guy who coughed up his own dough.

  56. Organizations think PCs are like furniture by cshamis · · Score: 2

    When in fact, they're tools; and, tools eventually wear out or become obsolete. You wouldn't expect a chef to never sharpen his knife, how can anybody expect that computers will continue to "stay sharp" as the day they were installed? We've got over 30 years of evidence that this is not the case. As the OS accumulates service packs and additional add-ons (read: Enterprise malware) eventually everything slows down and makes the machine clunky and awkward. The hardware doesn't change, but the software loads continue to become more demanding; factor in all the new idiot security policies most IT departments dream up, (full disk virus scans in the middle of the workday, password changes every 30 days, emails older than 90 days are deleted, no personal flashdrives, firewall monitoring, 180-day new software approval processes, requiring a "code" to use the color printer, etc.) ---The end result: Frustration, annoyance, anger... like road-rage; we feel that the computer, (like a slow guy blocking the fast lane) is holding us up, and keeping us from accomplishing our goals, and that leads to "keyboard rage." If people are breaking their machines to get upgrades, that's a sure-sign that the organization is failing to provide a suitable IT environment.

    1. Re:Organizations think PCs are like furniture by Talderas · · Score: 1

      If people are breaking their machines to get upgrades, that's a sure-sign that the organization is failing to provide a suitable IT environment.

      Which most of the time is because the company is unwilling to put forth the money necessary for the IT department to adequately do their job. Whether it's because the cash for more IT employees to handle the load or a lack of money for new equipment and software.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    2. Re:Organizations think PCs are like furniture by rogueippacket · · Score: 1

      Where are my mod points. Parent is correct. The function of the IT department is to ensure that the tools are working the way the user expects. It's much easier to enforce blanket policies at the click of a mouse than it is to actually sit down with your users and understand what they do, but these policies should only exist if it has been properly determined they are required. Yes, that means talking to people, assembling cases for/against these policies, and creating plans. If you are half-way decent at your job, you are able to do all of these things.

    3. Re:Organizations think PCs are like furniture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You wouldn't expect a chef to never sharpen his knife, how can anybody expect that computers will continue to "stay sharp" as the day they were installed? We've got over 30 years of evidence that this is not the case.

      Blimey, I had no idea Microsoft was already 30 years old! How sad..
      To follow your analogy: when a chef cuts vegetables, his knife becomes blunt. When a motherboard's electrolytic capacitors or a harddisk's servomotors or a keyboard's keys are used a lot, they break. So far so good.

      But the rest of what you describe, the software part: I don't think that's a property of "enterprise malware", I believe that's just MS Windows crap.

      Stay away from it. In my honest professional experience it's not as bad on VM/CMS, VAX/VMS, AIX, HP/UX, SGI Irix, SunOS, Solaris, and Linux. So I think MS Windows is the odd one out on the list.

      That being said, I did experience this "keyboard rage" you describe when I once crashed a NMR machine's OS by typing too quickly.. The thing cost several millions I believe so upgrading it was not an option (and I was only a lowly student anyway). But otherwise I've only felt this kind of frustration when a customer wanted me to develop something on a Microsoft OS.
      I don't mean to be an asshole here, but having experienced different options (yes I'm old), why does everyone in the (Microsoft-dominated) world seem to put up with this slowing-down virus-scanning crap? It's not normal you know... masochism elevated to this level should be considered a mild neurosis. It's a bit like Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman wrote about Crowley's acts of evil in "Good Omens". If you watch it from outside the reality-distortion field, I guess..

    4. Re:Organizations think PCs are like furniture by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      The function of the IT department is to ensure that the tools are working the way the user expects.

      I would be fine ensuring that users get admin access like they expect if there was a 50ish to 1 user to IT ratio. Once it climbs to 100 or more, IT can't keep the PCs running the way users expect while also giving users the flexibility they expect. Once the ratio grows large enough, the role of IT changes from break/fix to preventative maintenance. If they try to keep break/fix with large numbers of users, they'll get a lot of breaks to fix, and a large amount of dissatisfied users.

    5. Re:Organizations think PCs are like furniture by Moryath · · Score: 1, Insightful

      (full disk virus scans in the middle of the workday

      We tried scheduling them in the middle of the night, but some fuckwits kept turning the machine off and then turning off the surge strip so that Wake-On-Lan couldn't call the machine back online at 2AM when we had the scans scheduled so as not to impact the users - and they KEPT doing it even after the 5th time they were told not to. So we had to go with plan B and scan during the day.

      password changes every 30 days

      Actually where I am, it's 90. And the blame there lies with some PHB who wrote the legislation/regulations at government levels.

      Think before you blame IT for "coming up with" things like this.

      emails older than 90 days are deleted

      Where the hell do you work? We have the opposite problem, nobody deletes anything, ever. Storage gets to be a bitch. But don't dare even trying to clean out 20 year old files that haven't been referenced in 15 years, "we might need them sometime."

      no personal flashdrives

      After the 500th time some fucktard got a worm with a traveling USB loader package on their home machine and brought in a flashdrive to infect the network.

      Or after the 5th time someone walked out on their last day with a ton of company documents and handed them over to a rival company...

      This isn't an IT decision. This is a decision made by the lawyers to limit liability.

      firewall monitoring

      You like worms, do you?

      180-day new software approval processes

      Given the number of exploits in software like Adobe Acrobat?

      requiring a "code" to use the color printer

      Talk to the bean counters in accounting, who ran the numbers on cost per page on color versus monochrome and came up with that policy, not us.

      The end result: Frustration, annoyance, anger... like road-rage; we feel that the computer, (like a slow guy blocking the fast lane) is holding us up, and keeping us from accomplishing our goals, and that leads to "keyboard rage." If people are breaking their machines to get upgrades, that's a sure-sign that the organization is failing to provide a suitable IT environment.

      The end result: IT has been given the screaming fit from the PHB over and over again to make things "secure." Then IT gets a screaming fit from assholes like you who think you know everything that's going on.

      Is it any wonder we see what you DON'T see above and consider you a bloody fucking moron for not paying attention? Fuck, half this stuff isn't even our decision.

    6. Re:Organizations think PCs are like furniture by mjwx · · Score: 1

      You wouldn't expect a chef to never sharpen his knife,

      Actually, having worked in a few kitchens, chef's sharpen their own knives all the time. They don't have time to call the kitchen hand, they'll just grab a sharpener and do it themselves.

      Are you going to tell me a carpenter never cleans his own saw?

      Most people don't treat PC's like furniture, they treat them like cars. Cars are inherently complex machines so 90% of people don't know how they work, let alone how to fix them. Most people cant take care of their cars either, "oil, water, why would I want to put that in, my car should 'just work'".

      The big difference between a car and a computer is that the car costs $20,000 whilst the computer costs $1000, it's easy to justify the expense of buying a new one compared to the cost of fixing it. People who don't look after their car find huge mechanic bills after a few years, people who don't look after their PC's find huge tech support bills after a few months, but the cost of replacing a car is far greater.

      And yes, people would smash up their company car, if they thought they would get a new one. So if you want to stop people doing this to PC's you need to provide a disincentive.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  57. Re:smash by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

    Sadly you usually can't because the ones that think they can get away with this are usually someone's buddy/GF/wife/cousin/etc.

    True story, I get called into this little 10 man SMB because the secretary had seen one of those newscasts where someone recommends "strong passwords to protect you from hackers" along with giving them the usual capitals/numbers/symbols bit, so she marched right into work and set some crazy password...which she promptly forgot and couldn't get back in when she returned from lunch. Since all the payroll and invoicing (since she was also the "QB girl" which for some reason is ALWAYS a girl, you'd think they have a union or something) ran through this machine they were shut down. Since this was like the fourth time in as many weeks I had to come fix one of her doozies, out of earshot of her I asked the boss "Since she breaks so much stuff, why don't you fire her?" and he got this wistful look on his face and said "Lord I'd love to but my son would never speak to me again if I fired his wife"

    So working SMBs for damned near 20 years now I'd say it is a classic case of SNAFU, where the one that always causes the most hell is usually somebody's kinfolk or SO and that puts a screeching halt to firing them no matter what they break. I talked the owner into making her the full time "accounts admin" and set her up in a corner with a secondary machine that backed up daily with a KVM so that when she broke something she could just "clicky clicky" and keep working until they could bring the machine around the shop. Now that she is limited in the damage she can do they only have to drop a box off every three months or so, better for them and less hassle for me.

    --
    ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  58. Couldn't resist: by Hartree · · Score: 1

    "Yeah, we have some poor Vista users."

    Well, if they're poor users, updgrading the machines will only help so much.

  59. It's bad enough when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have been given a dual core Intel box on which to work, but they've installed it from an image taken of a single core server, and so your XP installation only uses the one core.
    Multiply that wasted potential by several hundred PC's just on one floor of our office...

    1. Re:It's bad enough when... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      I'm almost positive XP will refuse to boot in that situation because the HAL layer for a Uniprocess PC is entirely different than a multiprocessor PC. You can make a ACPI image that will run on both and will use both cores because its an using the ACPI HAL, but the older (can't remember the initials for it) HAL only supports uniprocessor anyway and simply won't work on multiprocessor machines period.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  60. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Basically, we 3 sides here.
    -"It's hard to work when the computer stops responding every 5 minutes";
    -"It's your fault that you're unproductive, the computer being slow has nothing to do with it";
    -"The computers are still doing the same jobs (just as slowly) as it did x years ago, what's the problem?".

    Guess which ones are bullshit.

  61. Beat by TV? by Ray · · Score: 1

    Wasn't this already covered this season on The Office?

  62. Perspective. Cost. Crazy Corporate. by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    What I do not get.

    Why corporate who leases computers on a 4 year lease, would cheap out, buying a 1000$ workstation (if you can even call it that) for an employee who makes 80k a YEAR working in GIS and IT, when buying a 2000$ workstation would greatly increase productivity over the length of the lease (particularly near the end, if they want an upgrade path that long). I mean the difference is 250$ DOLLARS a year VS 500$ bucks on an employee getting paid 160 times that.

    It makes zero sense.

    You can also lump not providing proper licenses that may be expensive at say 250-500$, but enable that employee to do that particular work 20 times faster. Again something trivial in the grand scheme of things.

    1. Re:Perspective. Cost. Crazy Corporate. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looks like your productive computer didn't help you with the correct placement of currency symbols.

  63. Re:blame the cheap PHB that run stuff into the gro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As someone that actually lives right near the Twin Cities, I can safely say the I-35W bridge collapse had nothing to do with cheap PHBs that run stuff into the ground - it was a combination of de-icing solution corriding the gusset plates and extreme road construction activity on the bridge deck.

    If you're unfamiliar with that section of I-35W (which, by naming it the "I-35 bridge" in your post pretty much screams non-Minnesotan), that bridge spans the Mississippi River just north of downtown Minneapolis, at which point the river is running northwest to southeast. Cold wind comes howling down over the frozen river underneath it in the winter, and if there is any water on that bridge at all when the temperature is below freezing the bridge deck turns into a skating rink without the de-icer. Given how corrosive the de-icer is, it's a miracle the bridge lasted as long as it did.

  64. Re:smash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yea, companies like that are all sorts of fun. I worked at place onces where pretty much everyone there was f**king someone else there, and/or was the product of everyone f**king someone else there. It lead to all sorts trouble, so glad I left.

  65. Smashing is the old way by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    just browse some shady websites if you want your old PC to go south.

  66. That's idiotic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If your employer wants you to have a newer/faster/better PC, he will get you one. If he does not, he won't. It's that simple. Why spend your own money to help out your employer? Do you think your employer would spend his own funds to, say, buy you a better car so that you can get to work faster?

  67. Felt the same desire to destroy my machine by totalg33k · · Score: 1

    I used to work second tier customer service for a catalog based retailer. I had pretty much always worked second shift, which was a 2-11 time slot. Our IT department insisted on having all virus scans (network base) run at the same time during the day, which meant it was scheduled to run after 5 pm (so the sales department wasn't affected), during the busiest part of my shift. It got to the point where I would have to do a hard shutdown on my machine (yeah, bad form), but it was the only solution I had to stop it from running (it wouldn't restart when I powered back up). My PHB saw me sitting idly at my desk looking at a blank screen and asked what I was doing, and after explaining this over a two week period, the IT guys eventually rescheduled my scan to run in the morning.

  68. Obligatory XKCD by readthemall · · Score: 1
  69. What about compatibility mode? by filesiteguy · · Score: 1



    Very similar process, but I had in a previous live simply booted to x86 compatibility mode - 6 MHz - and Windows 2000 took about an hour to boot.

    I got a new machine in a few hours. :)

  70. Re:smash by Dishevel · · Score: 2

    Or maybe you just read.

    --
    Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
  71. My problem isn't hardware by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

    My machine is quite good what kills it is the fucking McAfee and landesk software. They won't let me have Linux either despite the fact I develop software that runs on linux and it would easily make life ten times easier. It pretty much comes down to help desk nazis even if I was ok with keeping the windows partition and if anything was cocked up on Linux then I couldn't sit there and claim I can't work until they fix it.

  72. Lol opposite here... by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    I know its true, and I almost might do the same but... I don't have to. This laptop is so old and used, and has enough issues now on its own, I could have it replaced easily. The "|" only works sometimes, the left and right arrow keys are dead. The CDROM stopped working a long time ago, have to use the docking station because the power cord doesn't work, and I have tried replacements to no avail (actually one works, it looks like HPs new model power cords that are said to work on this laptop don't fit quite right)

    Plus I think its just old enough that by policy they will replace it....

    but I have it on a doc, sometimes I get mad and even hook up an external keyboard and mouse.... why?

    Because I hate the idea of waiting weeks, being without my laptop, and then having to rebuild it when it gets here because I use a linux desktop and they don't support that.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  73. Moreover by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason most office workers want an upgrade has nothing to do with productivity.

    That's only the excuse, of course. What they REALLY want is something new and shiny to make themselves feel like they're above everybody else. It's almost comical. I've even seen them go out of their way to fabricate a case for purchasing new equipment for THEMSELVES because somebody ELSE legitimately needs an upgrade -- and (of course) the person needing the upgrade somehow won't get as much use out of the new shiny toy as the fabricator. Give me a break.

    Really, that's all there is to it. There's a reason why every office employee in my workplace needs their own printer -- and (surprise) it's not because they need their own printer.

  74. getting it right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A place I worked the VPs and upper management each got a new PC every 6 month. Each with the latest and greatest everything - typically running about $10,000 each. Being we ran security audits and tracked all software run we notice they needed this hardware to run.... word and email.
    Mean while the office people down stairs did not have an upgrade in 10 years. The newest version of the software needed to do their job required so much power that after each process they save and restarted the machine. They could process 2-4 files in one day. I routed hardware out of the VPs PCs and into theirs - total of $500 in hardware costs Amazingly their productive increased dramatically to 10-20 files process in one day. The VPs productivity must have increase some how too with less spectacular PCs and of the 8 VPs they let one permanently go (although his 'new' PC sat in an empty top floor office with a great view for years). The office people down stairs loved me and had enough free time for coffee breaks and lunch and even bought for me once and awhile.

  75. I've brought in old parts of mine before by Nimey · · Score: 1

    My previous work computer was a 1.5 GHz P4 with 512MB of Rambus. We didn't get it replaced until summer '07, and for a time before that I brought in my just-retired Socket-A system and stuck a few work-owned parts in there to modernize it. Made it a lot more bearable to do my job.

    Heh. One of the reasons I did that was because the old klunker wouldn't run Vista and I had to be familiar with it. The Socket-A board wouldn't without an add-on SATA controller because there were no Nforce2 drivers for Vista, so we had to buy a Promise PCI card. Ran pretty decently after that, though, especially with a 74GB Raptor that I scrounged, which couldn't be used productively because the previous user had damaged the data connector - the end had broken off in the cable, so you could only use it with that one cable.

    --
    Hail Eris, full of mischief...

    E pluribus sanguinem
  76. Stupid companies do stupid things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I once worked as a developer at a company like this. New machines for developers were the cheapest they could buy. Slowest processors, least memory, smallest drives etc. By the time I got the development environment installed and code pulled down from perforce for the tip and my personal branch, the drive was nearly full. I could only hold the objects for one build configuration for one branch. If I needed to build a release build, then I had to delete the debug objects before I could do it. If I needed to build the tip revision, then I had to delete the object from my personal branch to do it. Builds took about an hour. The particular project I was assigned required frequent modifications to the header files.

    Replacement schedule was officially 5 years, but there were guys with desktop machines that were 8 yrs old that had never gotten an upgrade. Laptops tended to be younger since you could plausibly "trip" with them. Needless to say I didn't stay there long.

  77. Verified in the real world. by PhreakOfTime · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have done exactly this to one of the clients I had.

    It was a small business, with about 10PC's around the office for the agents to use as needed. One of the agents kept whining that this certain computer was 'old' and therefore to slow for him to work on. It was keeping him from getting as much done as he thought he could.... or that was what he kept saying.

    So, we talked with the owner of the company before rolling out our change; A brand new... case. Thats it, new case. Same guts, same hardware, same everything... but the case.

    Suddenly, this was the 'fastest' computer in the office(yes, all the computers were exactly the same hardware), and the complaining stopped(for awhile)

    As was expected, this did NOT increase this persons productivity. As was explained to the owner before the upgrade, this person was using every excuse in the book to get away with doing as little work as possible. It was always some external factor that was the problem. This happens a lot with people who do nothing more than what we lked to call 'play office'. They sit in the required space, show their face, but don't actually contribute anything meaningful but body heat in the winter time.

    By definition, stupid people are EASY to manipulate. Use them to your advantage, or suffer the fools forever.

  78. I hope you also realize though... by Moraelin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I hope you also realize though, that the programs we do today are also much more complex than you could do on punched cards back then. Even small-ish programs can have a million lines of code or more. (Larger ones, more. Windows XP was some 35 million lines, Vista over 50 million, and that's not counting such stuff as C libraries and whatnot.)

    Even at 1 gram per card, and each card being a line of code, a 1 million line program would weigh literally a metric ton. Did you see many people carrying their program to the computer with a small truck?

    Even the kind of internal complexity that went into programs those days was actually a lot lower. E.g., you didn't need to optimize access to shared data for 1000 web sessions at the same time, when the program is run as a sequential batch. (Yes, concurrent stuff did come around too, but later, but not in the days of paper cards.)

    Most such batch programs I've seen actually are just doing some fairly simple calculation in a loop, that nowadays you wouldn't even write a program for. It's stuff that the PHB would do directly in Excel.

    In other words, yeah, I love reading such posts that tell me that someone is too fucking stupid to even understand the difference between programs these days and most programs that were done on punched cards. And probably the 50's-60's and punched cards were the last time they were competent. I really love that kinda PHB, who thinks that because he once did some piss-poor two-level loop on punch cards back then, it means he's qualified to judge modern programs and deadlines. No, really.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  79. Thwart them with extended warranties by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've seen everything from coffee, tea, soda, run over by a car, "stolen", or my favorite: cat bed. However, the company I work for gets a 3 year extended warranty on all laptops. It's always telling when some smug SOB thinks they're going to get a new laptop and I call them back to let them know their laptop has been repaired and will be back in their hands tomorrow. The people that complain the most about slow performance are the same people that will hold the power button down to force their computer off and reboot if it takes more than 3 seconds for Outlook to open. Heaven forbid if Outlook needs to scan their .pst files for errors.

  80. Re:smash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like Microsoft :)

    You worked there too?

  81. Re:smash by bberens · · Score: 1

    I've been fortunate enough not to have to deal with someone's SO, but I have had the joy of a completely incompetent person who pulled a race card and now cannot be fired for any reason.

    --
    Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
  82. Ethernet Killer by krakass · · Score: 1
    1. Re:Ethernet Killer by LanMan04 · · Score: 1
      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
  83. Fighting for PC user rights by hellfire · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here let's flip that around a bit, just as another example.

    IT Side - we made up the following reasons that normal users shouldn't be installing programs themselves.
    - Microsoft gave us a document that says we should configure it like this so we did just that.
    - We are too lazy or overworked or underpaid to think too hard about our user's needs
    - We never bothered to ask what user's requirements were, we just assumed it.
    - IT person happens to be PHB's son or fucking PHB on the side.

    User side -
    - I have to be able to do work that my boss has required me to do which is core to the business making money!
    - I need to be able to test certain situations in order to come up with a new means to be more productive and save the company money!
    - Arbitrary restrictions are stifling users for the sake of making IT look good.

    Brain-dead PHB of IT side-
    - "We have a policy and we stick too it and we can't change it."
    - One month later: "We have a policy and we stick to it and we can't change it."
    - One more month later: PHB is out of the office playing golf with someone while you fume over missing yet another deadline.

    Now add in that you might be working in a software development environment, where every IT rep treats you like an office temp and tries to give you access to MS office and internet explorer and nothing else and does absolutely nothing to understand how your own company's software works nor tries to understand what it takes to create, test, and support said software when your own customers have admin rights to their own machine and, funny, you don't, so you can't possibly figure out what their problem is!

    This is just a counter example to your stereotype. People in general are idiots, sometimes they are in IT, sometimes they are in the user base, and sometimes it's both. You can't paint one side with a broad brush and completely blame things like this on them.

    --

    "All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

    1. Re:Fighting for PC user rights by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      What's amusing is that the IT goon who's slowing everyone down is probably off bragging to his buddies how he works for a company doing cutting edge research into cool technology.

    2. Re:Fighting for PC user rights by MarcQuadra · · Score: 1

      I would imagine that in a software development environment, you'd want to give teams or individuals allowances for hardware and software, instead of having a rigid IT structure.

      I suppose it depends on what kind of product you're putting out, but loosening silly restrictions on the creative folks seems like a good idea.

      That said, I admin hundreds of machines in academia, and NO project leaves my desk where users have admin privileges.

      --
      "Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
    3. Re:Fighting for PC user rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, two things:

      1. Most people want to blame someone else when things don't go the way they want (irrespective of who, if anyone, is at fault).
      2. Most people don't accept that they don't know what they don't know. I.T. doesn't always know what the user needs to do; the user doesn't always know the risks or downsides of what they want to do. This, of course, results in things going wrong and a trip back to point one.

    4. Re:Fighting for PC user rights by hellfire · · Score: 1

      I understand your stance. The important thing an IT admin must always understand is "What are my user's requirements?" The original article only addresses someone's unethical means of acquiring an update. It does not address the underlying cause as to why the user thinks they need an update. Moryath attempted to humorously blame the user, which is not always the case. In your case you understand your users, but understand that things may change, and there things a smart organization can do to address this rather than create an adversarial relationship between IT and everyone else... if IT is willing to listen.

      --

      "All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

    5. Re:Fighting for PC user rights by Some+Bitch · · Score: 1

      That works both ways though, I worked in an environment where the users thought the sun shone out of our arses but there's no way in Hell they were having admin rights. Instead we worked with the users to work out what their actual needs were and set things so they could do what they needed to do but weren't able to do any of the things we couldn't permit them to do.

      Like it or not, "I need this because of X" is balanced against a number of things one of them being any potential risk to the business. A small increase in productivity is not worth it if it comes with increased risk of data loss or other costs to the business. In the environment I work in now even there are a significant number of things even admins are restricted from doing and there are good reasons for those restrictions.

  84. Re:blame the cheap PHB that run stuff into the gro by hedwards · · Score: 1

    I'd blame the voters for that. They don't want to have a gas tax high enough to pay to maintain the infrastructure and they don't want to use funds from other budgets to pay for it either. The politicians are more than happy to oblige and then blame somebody else when it inevitably goes wrong.

  85. Use the system against itself by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Brain-dead PHB side
    - "My employees are complaining that you IT guys are getting in the way of their work! Fix it so they can install things!"

    IT response:
    - "Please fill in your department's account number here and sign here for billing and reporting purposes:"

    Create an official looking form for the PHB to sign that acknowledges that allowing a worker to install will expose corporate property (employee computer, company servers, other employee computers) to malware and security breaches. Furthermore indicate that any IT time required to cleanup malware and resolve security breaches will be billed to his department and noted in IT's periodic reports.

    1. Re:Use the system against itself by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Not only that but force the PHB to sign a document where he assumes all responsibility for company licensing problems from his employees installing illegal software.

      Suddenly the need for them to have Admin rights to install crap disappears.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  86. PHB is from Dilbert comic ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

    WTF is a PHB?

    Start reading: http://www.dilbert.com/

    1. Re:PHB is from Dilbert comic ... by Myrv · · Score: 1

      To answer the question more directly.

      PHB -> Pointy Haired Boss

      In other words Dilbert's boss and synonymous with clueless manager.

    2. Re:PHB is from Dilbert comic ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

      To answer the question more directly. PHB -> Pointy Haired Boss. In other words Dilbert's boss and synonymous with clueless manager.

      Lets not forget the similarity between the pointy hair and demonic horns.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointy-Haired_Boss

  87. Re:smash by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    OR the fact that IT was so incompetent that her browsing habits and allowing the users to install software should have had the IT managers sacked as well?

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  88. Re:smash by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    Less hassle? I love the $95.00 trip charge I add on to every location call. Make it so they can drop it off and I make a lot less? not a chance in hell. If you make it really cheap and easy for the customer, they get careless and start doing things they were told not to.... hey you're cheap now, let's click on every popup in IE!

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  89. I've Seen This... by slaad · · Score: 1

    At a place I used to work at, there was one particular computer that was older than the rest. Specifically, it didn't have enough memory to do the job. It wasn't doing anything fancy, just running XP and then some in-house software for collecting data, but once everything was loaded it was left with no free physical memory so it was constantly going to the swap file whenever you wanted to use it for anything.

    I explained all of this to the IT department. They could have doubled the memory for less than $20, but apparently that just wasn't feasible. They thought it made more sense to have people sit there in front of it and wait a few minutes a dozen times a day when it was used.

    Fortunately, soon after that, the hard drive crashed mysteriously and they swapped out the box with a better one.

    --


    ~Warning!~ The above is encrypted using rot676!
  90. Hammer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about a single, loose staple falling into the cooling vent? One shorted out the fuzzy, brown-hued 1991 CRT that I had at work last year. Damned shame. :)

  91. Work PC Ergonomics by theamarand · · Score: 1

    I used to have mild pain in my wrists when I'd type a lot...and I do type a lot. I always have an ergonomic keyboard and mouse, marked as my personal property, with the receipt taped to the bottom of the keyboard in case there's any question. However, not all workplaces suck. My current job has replaced my keyboard and mouse with an ergonomic unit of my choice whenever it needs it. I haven't had pain in my wrists for years, and I owe most of it to the keyboard and mouse, proper placement of my monitor/chair, and taking frequent breaks to stretch out.

    But, yeah...it stinks when you have a crappy mouse/keyboard/computer and have no way of upgrading, replacing or fixing deficiencies. If your computer at work sucks that hard that you want to break it, perhaps it's time to search for a new job?

  92. Overclocking decreases productivity ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

    All of the developers in my area have ... overclocked i7 985's ... increasing hardware definitely increases productivity?

    How does increasing the number of crashes that have to be debugged increase productivity, crashes that are overclocking related and not the result of an actual flaw in the software?

    Your IT guys do realize that overclocking related errors are:
    - not necessarily obvious, sometimes they are simply incorrect answers (2+2=5)
    - not necessarily testable, errors can require an unpredictable string of instructions or data that vary from machine to machine

    Overclocking induced errors represent a range of failures, starting with the very subtle slightly incorrect answer at some amount of overclocking and progressing to the catastrophic crash inducing error at a greater level of overclocking. Where the subtle range appears and how wide it is can't be predicted, nor is it necessarily fixed (does your office ambient temperature vary over the year?).

  93. Loose nut behind the keyboard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For most office automation applications, the technology peaked at about Pentium 4. Almost nothing is multithreaded, so all those extra (and slower) cores do damn little or nothing at all. Better Graphics cards, faster storage, but most of all, NETWORK improvements are what is needed to increase the user perception of "my computer is runing faster now". OS bloat (come on, 2.3 GB TSR for Win 7 64 bit!) eating up RAM, and all those totally parasitic web frills and animations and corporate spyware really eats up the memory, leaving precious little for actual work files.

    I am fortunate, we have 1 GB to the desktop and 10GB from the closets, and my company refreshes desktop and network hardware every three years when the service runs out, and offers the old systems to an employee raffle. My nephews have 3-4 year old engineering workstations that kick ass for schoolwork running XP-64 or Vista and they run like champoins when you strip all the crap out of the builds. Our engineers need admin, they check it out with ERPM, and a select class of "certified users" (actually trained in admin'ing an OS) can get it if they actually have a need. Joe User or Susie Secretary gets no admin, and we don't have malicious install or unlicensed software issues. Of course all our applications must be vended and packaged for install with the correct rights, but you either do the work up front or you do the work later.

    For others in less fortunate circumstances, I suggest a UZI 100KV pen sized stungun run across all the I/O jacks in the back of the computer. ESD (electro-static discharge) damage leaves no telltale hammer marks or fingerprints, and can be concealed from the security cameras in the palm of your hand. I won't admit to using this technique on the job, but there have been days when the only thing that is going to shut a bitchy user up is a new computer, and what can't be fixed has to be replaced.

    1. Re:Loose nut behind the keyboard by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      suggest a UZI 100KV pen sized stungun run across all the I/O jacks in the back of the computer. ESD (electro-static discharge) damage leaves no telltale hammer marks or fingerprints, and can be concealed from the security cameras in the palm of your hand.

      No, it'll leave scorch marks from the arcing which are equally telling.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  94. Re:Just because they say it, doesn't mean they do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because some uk office workers are dumb. If they have two printers in a room they will allways log a support call because it's printing out on the wrong one. What you expect me a clerical worker by profession to go into windows and change the default printer ? Thats IT's job!

       

  95. Re:smash by jd · · Score: 1

    That depends on how high the floor was and whether the CFO had the skills to wipe camera footage.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  96. hmmm by Schmyz · · Score: 1

    I guess as economic changes take place this is what it could come down too...but at what point is it really a need fro the employee vs a "keeping up with the Joneses" type of thing??

  97. Not just small companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some ten per cent of UK workers said they'd even resort to buying new parts for their work devices themselves to perform their own upgrade; particularly those who work in smaller organizations

    I work for one of the worlds largest software companies but I've resorted to working at home half the time with my own hardware to stay productive.

  98. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  99. Re:Just because they say it, doesn't mean they do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hate to say it, but I think /. fell for this one

    Why do you hate to say it, /. has been feeding misreported tabloid junk for several years now
    I wish I could find a better tech site these days but they all seem to suffer from the same disease
    Bugger.....

  100. Re:Just because they say it, doesn't mean they do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My work laptop is sitting in a locked filing cabinet collecting dust. I use my personal computer because they would not approve the specs I require to properly work.

    I am a power user and very familiar with keeping my system up to date and working properly. I have a home computer 8 years old still running happily. It is way faster then the crap laptop they gave to me (wireless doesn't work, battery holds no charge, disk failures abound, RAM issues cause blue screens at least twice weekly). Example of the pain involved with this machine it took 2.5 hours to slice a psd file on my machine and i wasn't able to even complete it in the time required. So I went home used my old laptop, the only machine I have with Photoshop installed, and sliced the entire image in 10 minutes. When I asked for a replacement they offered to get me a 3 year old piece of crap with worse specs then my current machine (slower processor, less RAM, smaller slower hard drive, integrated video). Needless to say I was not impressed.

    So I decided, why not and brought in my new laptop (core i7 16 GB's of RAM dedicated 1GB video yes I know it is overkill). However, since I have to work at nights a lot of time, this saves me from having to transfer files and other annoying issues. Other then Office and Photoshop all other work related items are saved on my external eSATA drive separating company code from my own personal data. I find the real problem is you have to spend a lot of time justifying a new purchase. When you do not even have enough time everyday to complete the scheduled work how am I to find the time.

    Now I am more productive and able to meet more unreasonable deadlines by only working 1-2 hours longer rather then 4-5 extra hours a day. Giving me more time to relax and do things I want to do. Relieving stress and further increasing my productivity. My only problem is I have to hide this fact from the IT department.

  101. Re:blame the cheap PHB that run stuff into the gro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the bridge is that fragile due to that combination, why was it not set for replacement earlier?

    Back to the PHBs again.

  102. Not Racist by Flagondeep · · Score: 1

    If it's beige, it needs to go.

  103. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  104. MOD UP! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MOD UP!

  105. My mom... up until a couple of days ago... by denzacar · · Score: 1

    She's been using my old 166 MHz MMX (overclocked to WHOLE 200 MHz), with ENTIRE 64 MB of RAM running Windows '98.
    She had no computer at work and she got tired of asking other people to use theirs each time she had to type a memo - so she took the one she was using at home to work.
    Until something finally gave up in it the other day.

    Since it's a bit of a ride to her workplace, and I've been rather busy lately I don't know what exactly is wrong with it - I'm guessing either motherboard or graphic card from the symptoms she described.
    Best part is she absolutely refuses any fixing that would involve spending money - though we could buy a refurbished one that would be at least 8 years younger and at least 10 times faster that her old machine for about $100 or less, with 12 month warranty.
    Which would, at the moment, be cheaper than trying to replace any part in that computer - save perhaps the floppy drive.

    Thing is... that old MMX machine was just fine for her.
    All she needed it for was some Microsoft Word and Excel from time to time.
    And she's a bit pissed off at her superiors for having to bring her own computer in the first place, plus since she's a step away from retirements she figures - fuck it.
    They want her to do something on a computer, let them get her one. She's not donating another dime to the company, thank you very much.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    1. Re:My mom... up until a couple of days ago... by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

      honestly the cost of disposing of that museum piece is probably greater than its value, tell your mom she probably wound up stealing from the company by throwing it in their dumpster. might make her feel better.

      but salvaging the floppy drive might be worth the while. probably not. god, what's gonna happen (NUMBER) years from now when CD/DVD compatible drives are as hard to find as 3.5"ers O_o

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    2. Re:My mom... up until a couple of days ago... by denzacar · · Score: 1

      In my "developing country" (Bosnia), the cost would be in the number of calories expended by taking it to the dumpster, plus the cost of the rubber removed from your shoes through the act of walking during the task.

      I'm actually all for recycling and reuse. Always have been. In most cases, you can't improvise if you don't reuse and recycle.
      Sadly... the last effort I've seen for actual paper and PET recycling ended up with special dumpsters being broken open and just placed next to the regular ones.
      Hell... If it wasn't for Roma (or gypsies, as referred to colloquially) stores would probably be burning their cardboard packaging each day.
      Instead, these people go around each day, collect it and sell it. The rest of us... I guess we are too rich for that.

      Meanwhile, about a year or two back, I remember reading an article about used PET bottles being smuggled into Croatia from Bosnia.
      See... In Croatia you get 1 kuna (~0.2$) for for one large or three small recyclable bottles.
      Now, since Herzegovina borders with Croatia over huge parts of unguarded land which includes one pretty large river that crosses the border into Croatia - people would either just chuck bottles into river and gather them into nets downstream OR smuggle them across the border on donkeys.

      Best part is, those are not your regular donkeys but "homing donkeys".
      They press the bottles into bales, pack the bales on a donkey and send it across the border. People on the other side exchange the bottles for cash and the split the profits.
      And should border patrol actually catch a donkey... What are they going to do? Arrest it? Worst case, they return the "escaped donkey" to the owner.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  106. Oh, monitors! by TerranFury · · Score: 1

    The size of and number of computer monitors you have is an indicator of your prestige. People don't demand extra monitors because it'll make them more productive. Sure, they'll make excuses -- "This way I can have my email AND Excel open at the same time" -- but really it's just the tech variant of wanting the corner office. I don't think the politics of workstations are as dramatic as those of monitors -- Monitors are showier -- but deep down I'm sure it's pretty similar.

  107. Shame 'em into it by anyaristow · · Score: 1

    I once had to shame my IT department into replacing my whining hard drive by offering to buy it myself. They made me put up with the whine of a clearly dying drive for a couple months over what was at the time a $130 part.

    1. Re:Shame 'em into it by geekoid · · Score: 1

      you do realize that the cost of the hardware is the cheapest part of replacement, right?

      A lot of people here don't seem to know that.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  108. why do people think reimaging drives is good? by cellocgw · · Score: 1

    See, there's this thing called "preferences." And in windows, especially w/ MSOffice, they are stuck all over the place - registry, ProgramFiles/Office/some_sub_folder, and various invisible folders in the user's home directory.
    The whole *point* of good software (not that I'm saying Office is any good) is that the user customizes the interface to maximize useability and speed.
    Then IT re-images, and my toolbars, macros, templates, etc. are gone. Dare I say "WTF!" ? Reimaging should be a last resort after IT (or someone) has done a diligent job of actually trying to fix the actual problem.

    PS: one more reason I use OSX whenever I can. Back up those Library/Prefs files, and in 10 minutes any brand-new install or computer can be used exactly like the old one. And, no, Windows' "transfer User prefs/environment" tools do not do the job right.

    --
    https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    1. Re:why do people think reimaging drives is good? by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      Just back up the profile with Transwiz from ForensIT. Free and paid versions.
      http://www.forensit.com/move-computer.html

      Seems to work well, even from XP to Win 7.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
  109. Still on XP - Office 2007 by jzarling · · Score: 1

    XP, and Office 2007 does what we need it to. However, we will be upgrading to Windows 7, due to new minimum desktop specs put out by our Overlord State Agency. I am pushing to hold off on new hardware, and just install W7, with some extra ram on our current PCs.

    --
    It is better to be the hammer than the anvil.
  110. Won't work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My job gave us these computers to work on. When they quit working, IT would just rip the corresponding part out of one from an adjacent desk.

  111. Re:smash by Golddess · · Score: 2

    No, I think you read it right.

    Before I read your comment, I was actually thinking she got someone else's old machine and that person got a brand new one, but your interpretation makes more sense.

    --
    "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
  112. Re:Just because they say it, doesn't mean they do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because providing solid evidence of your destructive behavior to your employer's property in a public article would be a great way to develop your career. I see the article more as an opinion piece than a scholarly piece of sociology research. It seems adequate for that interpretation, though.

  113. Re:Just because they say it, doesn't mean they do by fumblebruschi · · Score: 1

    I have actually known this to happen once -- a co-worker accidentally ran over his laptop with his car (not kidding) and got a new one.

    I've never destroyed company equipment, but I do buy a lot of my own stuff. Our IT guy knows what he's doing, but he's overworked and doesn't have much of a budget, so eventually I just bought what I needed -- new box, extra monitor, a bunch of other stuff -- and I maintain it myself. Before you ask, no, of course the company will never reimburse me for it, and the money I spent will not lead to me being directly rewarded by the company for it, but so what. I like my job and this lets me do it better.

  114. Re:smash by HungryHobo · · Score: 2

    I'm told this is unusually bad in the health industry: some med student friends claim that every small practice always seems to have 2 or 3 "pity jobs", people who don't actually do anything useful and only get makework who are invariably related to someone senior or married to someone.

  115. DIY upgrades of work PCs by Just+Brew+It! · · Score: 1

    Some ten per cent of UK workers said they'd even resort to buying new parts for their work devices themselves to perform their own upgrade; particularly those who work in smaller organizations."

    I don't work in the UK (I am in the US), but I can relate to this. When the company I work for suspended the planned round of desktop upgrades a couple of years ago, I started buying and bringing in my own parts from home. At this point the only piece of my original Pentium 4 desktop left is one of the data drives... and I'm still waiting for my "official" upgrade. People who started working here after me (I've been here since this office opened a number of years ago) generally haven't had to resort to this sort of thing, since their desktops were purchased more recently and are generally less out-of-date.

    Amusingly, the company also has a rule against storing company data on personal equipment. So just to make sure I'm in compliance with the letter of the law, any files I'm working on which could be considered proprietary in nature are kept either on a network share, or on that one hard drive that still belongs to the company!

    1. Re:DIY upgrades of work PCs by geekoid · · Score: 1

      see, you fixed it so it wasn't priority because you are getting work done. If you didn't fix it eventually you would be top priority and they would fix it.

      I see this problem everywhere and in many industries. People bring in there own fix, then it hides the real problem until it's far worse. See: "Teachers bringing supplies for school"

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  116. Re:smash by pnutjam · · Score: 1

    name something that isn't unusually bad in the health care industry...

  117. doesn't work by green1 · · Score: 1

    At my company they have a policy in place that prevents this. They will fix your machine no matter how badly your destroy it. The only way you get an upgrade is when they have determined that the machine has reached it's lifecycle time (generally 3-4 years after it becomes completely unusable for it's intended task). If you do manage to find a way to break it beyond any repair at all (which I think would require either it being run over by a tank, or in the middle of a large explosion) They will replace it with an identical model from spares stock. You will also have to work without a computer for close to a week.

    On a previous laptop I went through 3 screens, 2 power supplies, 2 hard drives, 3 mother boards, and 2 wireless cards over the life of the computer. Fixing any one of those issues probably cost as much as the whole machine (especially if you consider my lost productivity of trying to do my job for a week without a computer each time)

    1. Re:doesn't work by georgesdev · · Score: 1

      have you considered working for another company?

    2. Re:doesn't work by green1 · · Score: 1

      The company I work for has many issues, and many broken processes, I certainly won't deny that. But the job itself is one I enjoy, and there is no other company in this part of the country that has the same job to offer. And luckilly, although a computer really helps me do my job, it isn't quite absolutely essential, there are ways around it (even if some of them are a little painful). Plus, I'm paid by the hour, so the lost productivity doesn't come off my paycheque.

  118. Smaller organizations? by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    It seems to me the larger the organization, the more difficult it is to get upgrades and the more likely that people will take matters into their own hands.

    There used to be a formula for this back in the early days of corporate IT. The less responsive the official organization, the more likely that unofficial services will spring up like little fiefdoms in the company.

    I've worked for a company that had an unofficial "parts guy"; someone who would stock many common PC components and offer them for sale out of his cube. Did a brisk business.

    What it comes down to is being able to get your work done, and the time you spend fighting with IT is time wasted.

    This can be especially challenging after a corporate outsourcing. The helpdesk overseas is trained to avoid cutting a ticket for PC service, because that requires they pull in someone local and that adds to overhead.

    Recently I came in Monday and found that I had been the victim of a "drive by upgrade", and my video was not displaying correctly. The usual adjustments weren't helping, so, gritting my teeth, I called the helpdesk in an overseas country that will not be named.

    "Hello, my PC video is not displaying correctly. I see that patches were applied over the weekend and I suspect a corrupt..."

    "I think I can be helping you. Please take your mouse pointer and put it in a part of the desktop where there is no window, and click the right mouse button."

    "I've already tried this, but ok..."

    "Please be clicking on the settings tab."

    "Ok."

    "Move the Screen resolution slider to 1024 by 768 and click Apply."

    "Ok."

    "Do you see your desktop?"

    "Yes, but..."

    "Your computer is fixed. Thank you for calling..."

    "My computer is NOT fixed! The resolution of this monitor is 1680X1050. Last Friday the PC would display in that resolu..."

    "If you can see your desktop, your computer is fixed. I will close the ticket. Have a pleasant day."

    It took two days of bitter complaints and trying to make do with a low resolution desktop that was stretched realllly wide, before someone higher up in the organization took notice and arm-twisted the outsource company to send over a PC tech, who had to replace hardware to get it working correctly.

    The thing is, if it had failed completely (or if I had said "the monitor is black" and let it go at that) things would have gone a lot more smoothly. If there's any way an admission can be forced from you that the PC is working, then no effort or expense is necessary.

    The way support is set up in some companies, I can understand the temptation to accidentally put your foot on the motherboard. "I'm sorry, I don't know how that happened." Don't drop the computer, though, because you will want PC support to restore your data, and do you really think they're backing up PCs? Effectively, I mean?

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:Smaller organizations? by Just+Brew+It! · · Score: 1

      It seems to me the larger the organization, the more difficult it is to get upgrades and the more likely that people will take matters into their own hands.

      On the other hand, I think people in smaller organizations are more likely to actually give a crap about getting their work done. In a large organization, you're going to have more people who just say "Oh well, it's not my problem if they won't give me the computer I need to do my job effectively!"

    2. Re:Smaller organizations? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      depends. Do they keep the user work space on the network? Here it is. So fixes go quickly.

      I didn't know they did that when I first started here and dropped all my mp3s into the music folder. an hour later I got a call asking what all my mp3s were doing on there network.
      I was told if they aren't off there, they would be deleted that night; which is how it should be.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Smaller organizations? by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      It's pretty easy to tell if your environment is on a network drive, and you can choose not to use it. Locally they had to rethink putting power users on a network share because of the massive amount of data we use locally, and the fact that there's so much unused space on the C drive of most PCs these days. But, you can't assume that local data is backed up, unless the company makes some provision for that, or you know someone in IT. Moreover, in places where "diagnosis" is limited to re-imaging the system disk, I've seen users buy their own external disks on which to keep their work-related data.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  119. Tossing old guts into a new shiny case by L473ncy · · Score: 2

    OK here's an idea. How about tossing in the guts of the old computer into a new shiny case (complete with LED casefans and everything). Hell, do a complete format of the drive while you're at it and restore everything back to the way it was before all that bloatware the person in question installed. Or not and see if they think their "new computer" is faster. IMO it's all about perception.

  120. Re:Just because they say it, doesn't mean they do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I ran over a dell d830[1] with my car. Other than a cracked screen and a dead hdd, the thing still worked

    Very fucking impressive. 5 Stars. Will buy again.

    [1] Fair enough, it was inside its software carry-bag, and the carry bag was filled with legal writs ... but still, very fucking impressive indeed (neatly stacked paper does not compress much).

  121. P3 or 4 is usually good enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know this is Slashdot, but most "office workers" should be able to work fine with older hardware. My wife is sitting behind me playing Farmville while instant messaging with her sister AND "doing online banking" at the same time all on a 7 year old computer that is running Suse 11.2.

    If that's not productivity then I don't what it is.

  122. BOFH by Kamiza+Ikioi · · Score: 1

    I trained well as a certified BOFH. I get what I want without having to deal with lusers. I lock down boxes, and I get flak when person X can't install something. What really happens is they complain that they need something legitimate, use the "it takes more than 5 min" excuse, and get their rights elevated so they can really install Yahoo Messenger.

    I then plan a game of Whack-A-Mole remotely killing the process, deleting necessary .dll files, etc. I then get humorous support calls about "problems" with the machine. Of course, they can't tell me what the problem is, but will repeat, "things just keep crashing". At which point I pull up their remote desktop and ask them to demonstrate the problem, "Well, it works now, but it wasn't a minute ago."

    After about a week, they give up. Should they revert to their old ways, my network manager will notify me upon new software installs, and I get to play again.

    The ironic thing is this: They can't complain to the boss, because if they ask me, I suggest a new PC. Haha, "Just do the best you can," they tell the luser. They're not buying new PCs! EVER! And I love it!

    --
    I8-D
  123. Blackberrys too by Slutticus · · Score: 1

    I've noticed a lot of "dropped my blackberry down the elevator shaft" syndrome where I work. The iPhones are just so damn shiny. I should know, my blackberry was eaten by a mountain lion right outside my house. True story


    Send from my corporate iPhone

  124. hmm by geekoid · · Score: 1

    " Some 40 per cent of office workers complain that their aging workplace PC hurts their productivity"

    And a vast majority of those users are wrong. It's a perception issue. Worst case is a rebuild of the HD.
    Unless their tools have changed and have higher requirements, then they don't need new hardware.

    Here we started just rebuild systems installations. Takes 30 minutes, and the unneeded cruft has removed.
    The PC is faster.

    We have people doing their job they same as ever with 'ancient' 1 gig XP boxes. The only reason we are upgrading is because somene got it into there head that since XP is falling out os support we should upgrade. Too which I say "What does support mean for us? Have we EVER called MS and had them fix something just for us?" No, of course not.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  125. Re:Frankly this is retarded by green1 · · Score: 1

    In a large company we run in to a different problem. Internal cost centres. Every manager I've ever met would rather waste thousands of dollars of company money, than have to spend $5 out of his own cost centre. I've taken business cases to them to show that a $200 tool would save the company over $1000 worth of my time every week (and the tool would last for years), and been denied because it's "too expensive". Buying tools comes from the manager's cost centre, but employee paycheques don't.

    Interestingly, repairing (and up to replacing a destroyed computer) also doesn't come from their cost centre, but a requested replacement would, leading many managers to suggest the destruction route so that the cost comes from the IT budget for repairs instead of the manager's cost centre.

  126. Re:smash by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

    The profits! ba-dum-bump

    --
    ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
  127. Oh yeah. by khasim · · Score: 1

    I don't doubt that what you say is accurate, but I'm amazed it's still socially acceptable for people to be unable to use the basic technology we interact with every day.

    Where I work, we have have ADMINS that cannot keep their machines in working order.

    It's not what you know.
    It's who likes you.

    A person who needs to drive a company vehicle as part of their job would be out pretty quickly if they kept crashing into trees - sure, the occasional genuine accident happens, and will be overlooked, but negligence/stupidity/repeated incompetence will (rightly) get you fired.

    Except that the "accident" can be blamed on something else and IT can magically repair all "damage" done.

    And when a computer crashes, no one dies. Or is injured and collects disability for the rest of his/her life.

    1. Re:Oh yeah. by Lucractius · · Score: 1

      Obviously you havent had the misfortune to work in a medical support capacity.
      Accidents with computers telling people what to cut off & how serious that tumor is, have a very real chance of harm.

      --
      XML - A clever joke would be here if /. didn't mangle tag brackets.
  128. Mozy -- EMC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's ironic that this report is from Mozy which is owned by EMC. A company notorious for sending out field personnel with 5+ year old laptops to work on customer equipment!

  129. Re:smash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    not necesserity, i for example managed to lose my work laptop on a work trip to beijing. while i was drunk no less. + a vey important item losing which might have potentially caused great monetary damage to company via contract breach fines and loss of customerbase. think of possible damages on the scale of hundreds of laptops. the worst case scenario didnt happen but it sure could have happened. anyway. the point is, i still have my job, the whole thing pretty much culminated with getting called on the carpet to the ceo(bosses bosses bosses boss). unless an accident is intentional or the employer is of low value to the company people usually dont get fired for once in a lifetime cockup. as long as keeping the employer is of more risk than firing him from the company point of view it makes sense to keep the employer, the next time you dont give the guy a payraise you can just say "remember that night in beijing? "

  130. More Effective Cure by awshidahak · · Score: 1

    Any employee who smashes a pc is replaced by one who's less likely to destroy company equipment.

  131. Major Margaret Houlihan and the Foot Locker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On the TV series M*A*S*H, season 8 episode 12, "Dear Uncle Abdul" Major Margaret Houlihan has a defective foot locker. The Army will not replace it as it is still sort of functional. Major Houlihan shoots the foot locker, claims it perished in the line of duty, and demands a new one.

  132. There was a valid reason for doing it. by XB-70 · · Score: 1

    At a company that I worked for, one user had a laptop with 64 Meg of Ram and Windows 2000 on it. The problem was that it was so slow that he simply couldn't use the machine. It was costing the company a fortune in man-hours while he waited for the software to load and run. I was asked what could be done about the problem. I took the laptop out to a back room and, on the way, I tripped. The machine went flying and the display broke. Fortunately, no one seemed to mind my clumsiness and the user got a new machine. His productivity increased ten-fold.

    --
    *** Don't be dull.***
  133. Re:Frankly this is retarded by smurfsurf · · Score: 1

    Hear, hear!

    On my last job, I wanted a 20 Euro head-set, so I can work better when on phone with my customers. The cost of the time spent on that... Insane!

  134. Dilbert and Mordac the Preventer of IT services by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm surprised I haven't seen these here yet:

    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1999-09-03/

    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1998-04-08/

    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1998-09-06/

    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2010-05-08/

  135. Idiots will always find a way by perstephone · · Score: 1

    A friend went on vacation for a week. The office nutjob infected her own machine for the eighth time so far this year. When IT confiscated her machine, our boss had her use friend's computer since the desk was vacant. Needless to say, the friend's computer was also in IT's possession when she returned from vacation. I can't install updates to Java on my machine, but Virus Queen can infect her computer all the live long day. Cool.

  136. disk upgrade by georgesdev · · Score: 1

    I upgraded my 80 GB work laptop with a 160 one a year ago.
    I'll probably upgrade it to 500GB when i update to the latest version of Linux in a few weeks.
    If I did not do it, I'd still be on a Windows XP 80GB machine ...
    it does not cost anything to the company, and I'm happy with the machine, so ...

  137. Foolproof way to get a new computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only successful way to get a new, working, replacement computer is to find someone in IT, offer them a barrel of cookies, a slab of beer, and $100, and mention how convenient it would be if your ancient PC suddenly developed a fault and had to be replaced.

    Guaranteed to work even when there are security cameras in the workplace. There's nothing like a security video showing a PC innocently sitting overnight on a test bench which totally does not have a degaussing coil strapped underneath it, or a switchable, over-voltable power socket close to hand.

  138. Prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I haven't yet seen one comment that actually resolves to solve the problem in a civil matter, like spending the time that computer is actually not allowing you to be productive to write up a proposal with solid facts that show how better hardware will make a more productive wheel cog out of you. It worked for me several times in the past. Now that I own my own company I realize that sometimes a less productive worker is not less productive for the business.

  139. I did that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Monitor on my 6 year old machine died, got nice widescreen monitor, XP wouldn't drive it, installed a driver called Ubuntu 10.10. Wow! New computer!

  140. Re:Same old bottleneck by ploxiln · · Score: 1

    Antivirus is really the killer. A windows computer with a top of the line SSD, with antivirus, is about as snappy accessing the disk as a windows computer without an ssd and without antivirus, which is pretty sad if that ssd is 20 to 100 times faster than the rotating hard drive at various workloads (my experience with an intel g2 160gb ssd).

    The other thing is IO scheduling. Process / thread scheduling has come a long way, but IO scheduling not so much... it's not even really fully addressed in linux, they're still working on different strategies for charging different groups of processes for the IO they caused, and strategies for allocating or prioritising IO... there's some stuff linux can do about it now, but you would only bother to set it up and tweak it if you were managing google's servers or something...

  141. Re:Just because they say it, doesn't mean they do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've had a user "accidentally" spill a full cup of coffee on a fairly new machine (1,5 years) less than a week after it had been revealed to him/her that this person would not receive a new machine for another year, something the user ardently opposed.

    Draw your own conclusions.

  142. 10 year old Desktop PC, runs great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My Desktop was state of the art around 2001, running Redhat and Kde. To be sure most of my work is database and web pages at the same time on servers. But my desktop gets me there well.

    When I go out to the web I have to turn off JavaScript, since so many web sights do useless things that eat my CPU alive with JavaScript. As for Slashdot I have managed to get rid of all the CSS and Slashdot is 1000% better for it.