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Blender 2.57 Released — and It's Easy To Use!

An anonymous reader writes "Past Blender releases, as capable as they were, had learning curves somewhere between straight up and down and 90 degrees. The release of Blender 2.57 changes all that. No longer are simple features 'non discoverable.' It has more or less a completely redesigned user interface that is clean, sensible and newbie friendly (hey, I'm using it!). It has a handy tab interface for Actions/Properties such as Render, Scene, World and Object etc. Plus, it's fast and CPU friendly. I'm running the official Blender standalone binary on Fedora 14, with 2GB RAM , Radeon X1300 (free drivers) and a cheap CPU Intel duel e2200. No more more slow GUI, no more 100% unexplained CPU, just great stuff. Kudos to all who made this possible."

46 of 221 comments (clear)

  1. It's easy to use...but... by thomasdz · · Score: 4, Funny

    Well... it may be easy to use, but does it blend? ...oh, wait...nevermind

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  2. I'll believe it when I see it... by identity0 · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Easy to use"? Last time I used Blender, it was so unfriendly and hard that I thought it should have the "L" taken out of the name...

    1. Re:I'll believe it when I see it... by Deus.1.01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I thought the same about 3D max but less so about Maya(which was the first 3D modelling program i ever tried)

      3D modelling programs are so feature rich, any gui will seem counter intiutive in some degree.

      Its really about practice, i spent maybe 3 months toying with blender and i felt i had a pretty good feel for it.
      But when i first started it looked like a complete mess...then again i had the same feeling regarding 3Dmax...the difference was my encounter with 3D max wasnt very rigorous.

      But really....if you know the graphics theory, know shader and light theory, that goes a long way, most people experimenting with 3D does not...and hence are bound to find the GUI unintuitive.

      --
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    2. Re:I'll believe it when I see it... by Fizzl · · Score: 2

      Well, I learned with 3d studio max (whatever version was new in -97).
      It took around one year of self learning to get in grips with the features to actually produce something nice, but I made steady progress and it was always enjoyable to learn new things.
      Since then, I have also learned some Maya and some NURBS specific package I forget now.

      I have tried to learn blender several times. The starting curve is just too steep. It is not fun. I once waded through the newbie guide and managed to do some basic modeling and texturing, but it took a lot of effort. I tried to do something on my own and was completely lost again. I accidentally did something and was utterly lost of how to get back on track. The workflow was just weird to me. I could follow tutorials, but couldn't apply what I learned to what I wanted it to do. Finally I just gave up.

      Immediately after seeing this post, I added the ubuntu PPA for latest blender and updated.
      Yeah. "OMGZ IT'S FINALLY DOING WHAT I WANT!"-moment, just as someone described would not happen.

  3. You're A Newbie by dylan_- · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Perhaps it really is now "easy to use". I doubt it. Many moons ago I downloaded Blender to give it a shot. I installed it, messed about for a while and was totally lost. Nothing made sense in it; I could barely figure out what I was supposed to be looking at or how to draw the simplest object. I gave up cursing the UI as completely impossible and arcane.

    Some time later I decided to try it again. This time I didn't even try to figure it out, I just read the Complete Newbie tutorial and did exactly what it told me to do. All of a sudden Blender made sense and seemed quick and easy to use.

    So, my recommendation is not to treat Blender like other packages, where you can figure it out by clicking around for a few minutes. You're a newbie. Do the tutorial. It will definitely save you a lot of annoyance.

    --
    Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
    1. Re:You're A Newbie by nurb432 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Right, niche markets demand niche applications. Some tasks just aren't 'easy' by nature and if you dumb down your GUI ( and perhaps features ) to accommodate the average user, you alienate your true market.

      I have always felt that production 3D work has been one of those markets.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    2. Re:You're A Newbie by Penguinisto · · Score: 2

      It's been redesigned to look like 3ds Max or maya.

      I was thinking Modo... and I hope to hell it has Modo's kind of customizable UI - that would be extremely sweet (because then I can make it match the other tools in the workflow...)

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    3. Re:You're A Newbie by gaelfx · · Score: 2

      That almost exactly what happened to me. The first time I used blender, I was horribly mystified by everything in it, and I ended up making a lot of things that were utterly horrible to look at, from any angle. Later, I discovered all of the free tutes out there and I followed a few of them, and even ended up developing a couple of (very simple) models for an open source game I was playing at the time. The tutes did a great job of helping me learn my way around the app, and I was seriously surprised at how little I actually needed the mouse to develop pretty decent looking models. I don't think there was anything wrong with the GUI before, but the problem was with the lack of access to those tutes from the application itself, or at least a lack of obvious access. I haven't tried 2.57 yet, but I'm willing to bet that even with the GUI enhancements, it's still worth your while to check out the tutes, once they're all updated for the new interface.

    4. Re:You're A Newbie by Tasha26 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yeah, can't jump straight into it, you have to follow some structured tutorial (e.g. Lynda.com). But it's free, imports most popular formats and replicates most functionalities you'd find in a $600-3000 commercial package. I even made a donation.

    5. Re:You're A Newbie by caywen · · Score: 2

      I agree. Blender is one of those apps where you won't just jump into it and figure out how to produce anything without some dedication and research. I've spent a great deal of time borrowing Blender books and watching endless YouTube tutorials (there's quite a few, highly recommended). You take what you learn and apply it as much as possible, and it becomes part of your vocabulary. Yes, it takes significant effort.

      Is it worth it? Absolutely. Once you actually know your way around the tool, it has a way of becoming second nature and getting out of the way. Avid Blender users love it, and there's a reason. Blender 2.5 (soon to be 2.6 from what I've read) does not change that. It's incrementally easier, but it has also become very powerful. I look forward to the huge amount of Python add-ons that will follow as Blender developers take advantage of the far more consistent and powerful API's.

    6. Re:You're A Newbie by Trilkk · · Score: 2

      Blender is like Vim - it does not make compromises for usability versus power.

      For professional purposes it does not make sense to create a program that's easy to use. Accessibility has zero value in this equation - the people just trying out thinking they can be the next Pixar would not achieve anything anyway. The people with willpower to become experts will only care whether it's powerful or not.

    7. Re:You're A Newbie by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

      People assume that just because they can't figure something out by clicking around, that the UI is bad.

      One of the key properties of a good GUI is 'Discoverable'. So, yeah.

      The old Macintosh User Interface Guidelines from the mid-80's are now technically obsolete, but UI designers should all have a copy for inspiration.

      --
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  4. Not quite by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    a cheap CPU Intel duel e2200"

    What that really is: two cores at 20 paces.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  5. Not just a gui by alcarinque · · Score: 5, Informative

    It was not only a re-design of the gui, that's just a sub product. They have redone all the underlying api to improve animation capabilities and facilitate extensions and adding of new features. Check the release log http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-257/

  6. It is easier to use, not easy to use by LetterRip · · Score: 2

    I think the original poster over states things, while certainly a lot easier to use and learn. There is still definitely a learning curve and a few counter intuitive hotkey and mouse button choices.

    1. Re:It is easier to use, not easy to use by vgerclover · · Score: 2

      Is it easier to learn than 3D Studio Max? Is it better suited for common workflows in the long run?

      That an app is hard to use is not a problem. That an app is harder to use than it needs to be is.

    2. Re:It is easier to use, not easy to use by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      3D is just hard. If the program has any depth at all, there are a huge number of functions, details and methods that need to be covered. Most of the newer 3D programs include several different ways of interacting with an object - mesh manipulation, NURBS, sculpting, several ways to texture or paint the object, different aspects of animating, then placing things in a scene, integrating it with video / still / whatever output. Lots and lots of things.

      Then you have restrictions generating from decades of previous programs - users that are used to manipulating things in particular ways, limitations of data containers, limitations in the ability to transfer data back and forth in a work flow.

      Not to mention that working in 3D gets complicated fast. Not too many spherical cows in CG land.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  7. Re:Fantastic News by biryokumaru · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, I heard that the new Gimp is actually going to make the whole thing one window. Maybe I'll be able to use it without losing the stupid toolbox, or having to close the layers window just to see the darn image.

    --
    When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
  8. Re:Fantastic News by arth1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Gimp is an excellent example of old school window use -- where you do not blow up windows full screen, but work with overlapping windows. It allows you to work on multiple pictures at once, copying between them, without the toolbox, layer window or similar ever taking up more space. Even to/from other applications.
    But to use it efficiently, you have to forget everything that Windows and Ubuntu has tried to teach you for the last decade; that you should only view a single window at a time, and that smaller windows raise on focus.

    Return to the X way, and it makes perfect sense, unlike Photoshop, which takes over the screen, and then presents its windows within the master window.

  9. Re:Fantastic News by biryokumaru · · Score: 2

    The problem is that it's utterly unusable on Windows. Heck, when I load it I have to minimize all my other windows just to bring it to the front. Cross compatibility is much more important than appealing to people who use uncommon window focus settings.

    --
    When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
  10. Re:No, it is not! by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Informative

    That's pretty much the case with any real 3D/CG application - even the allegedly easy Kai Krause built apps of yore (Bryce, Poser, RayDream/Cararra) required more than just a little bit of time and effort to grok the controls (let alone the concepts behind them).

    Turn a complete newbie loose on Modo, Maya (*shiver*), Lightwave, or 3DS Max... or even a totally NURBs-happy app like Rhino. I guarantee you that 60% of those newbies will give it up in disgust in less than a few cumulative hours, and at least 20% more will give up on it after creating (and perhaps animating) a few crude meshes. It simply takes some work to know what's going on in a CG app. The closest I can remember any CG app being newbie-friendly? It was MakeHuman, but in that app's case it was (and still is IMHO) pretty limited in what it could do offhand.

    Hell, I've been dinking around with CG apps for 10 years now, and I'm still learning things when it comes to maximizing what even my most favorite and oft-used tools can do.

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  11. Re:Fantastic News by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I disagree. Breaking usability for nix users is backwards.

  12. Anonymous newbies posting release announcements? by ari_j · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What's with the recent phenomenon of anonymous supposed newbies posting release announcements for software, claiming it's easy to use and posting all sorts of information about how well it runs on their systems? Why doesn't someone with some real knowledge post the release announcement? Should I personally be announcing the 2012 General Motors line-up?

  13. PPA for Ubuntu? by tepples · · Score: 3

    Has anyone made a PPA of this for Ubuntu 10.10? Or should I wait for 11.04 before looking for a PPA?

  14. What a rubbish Meta Article Post. by Qbertino · · Score: 5, Informative

    1st of all: Blenders UI has been OpenGL accelerated from day one. It has allways been one of the fastest GUIs in existance. Way faster and more responsive than any other 3D Tool UI anyway. The GP is talking bullshit on this one.

    2nd: Blender has never been particularly difficult to use for any 3D Kit with a simular set of features. In fact, it's UI design (non-overlapping, customizable, document/task based configuration, etc.) has served as a benchmark for quite a few recent creative tool UIs in the industry (Modo 3D, latest CS releases by Adobe, etc.)

    3rd: The UI has been updated, yes. But it's more an evolution than a complete redo, from a user standpoint anyway imho. Simply because Blenders UI has allready been pretty good for quite some time now. ... Allthough the arcitecture actually is a complete redo. Python driven, new Icons and new panels. However "OMG I'M USING IT! IT FINALLY WORKS!" is way overboard, exaggerated nonsense. Blender has been a kick-ass pro-level 3D Tool for approx. 7 years now. And yes, that also goes for its usability. Anybody not familiar with other professional 3D Toolkits and the learning whoes associated with this field, please stay out of this on this issue. Thanks.

    4th: There is no mention of the new tools and features, which are actually worth mentioning. F.E. a particle system that rivals that of Lightwave (the industry leader in this field) with particle path editing and other goodies, Smoke and Volumetrics rendering, NLA with an extra new NLA UI, etc. This has Blender closing in on competing programms even further and will shake up the industry once again. ... Can't wait till they finally get full Renderman compatibility. That will kick some serious shit. ... Anyway, Kudos to the Blender team for this great release.

    As for the GP: Mostly Rubbish or stuff that no one wants to hear. "OMG I'm running Blender on XYZ with 2 Gigs of RAM. UNBELIEVALBE!" ... Idiot.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
    1. Re:What a rubbish Meta Article Post. by LetterRip · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There is no mention of the new tools and features, which are actually worth mentioning. F.E. a particle system that rivals that of Lightwave (the industry leader in this field) with particle path editing and other goodies

      Lightwave is not an industry leader for particles. I'd put them 5th or 6th. Rought order would be Houdini, Maya, XSI, 3DSMax, Lightwave, Blender, Cinema4D.

    2. Re:What a rubbish Meta Article Post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      OK, You are definitely a Blender Fan-Boy but I don't blame you for it because Blender definitely is very capable... but user friendly UI, come on, No way... I have used 3ds Max, Carrera, Bryce, Cinema 4D, Houdini and LightWave (some being demos) for a hobby and I use AutoCad and Inventor for my living and I have to state unequivocally that the Blender of 5 years ago learning curve was as steep or steeper than any of those I mentioned, of course IMVHO. Blender very capable = yes Blender intuitive= No Way. Now I have to download to see if it is truly more intuitive because I love the price compared to some I mentioned and I haven't been able to afford an upgrade in some time ;-)

    3. Re:What a rubbish Meta Article Post. by geedubyoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Agreed - Houdini has the best general purpose particle system, although there are some very good standalone specialised solutions, too.

    4. Re:What a rubbish Meta Article Post. by Grim+Beefer · · Score: 2

      I'd have to disagree with some of your points.

      When you say Blender has one of the "fastest GUIs in existence", I would assume you are including the viewports. If you make a torus with 200 segs both in width and height, Blender will be chugging to edit such a high density object. Selecting ring and edge loops takes at least a second in time (if that doesn't sound like much, believe me that time adds up...) 3dsmax will edit such a mesh with ease, any sub-object selections are nearly instantaneous. Also, you're going to see noticeable slowdown in Blender even navigating around such a mesh if edit mode is on. Along those lines, copy that mesh about ten times into your scene. By about the tenth copy, Blender's viewports become pretty unusable, on my rig. Meanwhile in 3ds Max, I have to get to the 120th copy of that 200x200 torus to even see a drop in fps, let alone anything approaching unusable. After increasing the torus count to 480 I had a noticeable drop in fps, but a still totally usable scene. The poly count from the torus primitives was over 38 million, and I had a workable viewport of between 12-14 fps, if you want the details. What does this mean? For pro level work involving millions of polys, Blender isn't really an option as a modelling/animation tool. It does fine on low poly models, such as for gaming, product vis, etc., but it wouldn't be able to run any of the scenes I use on a daily basis, regardless of my hardware. I haven't tested Blender for how responsive it is with hundreds or thousands of low poly objects, but I'm guessing not great. If you're going to call something a "kick-ass pro-level 3D Tool" you have to account for these kinds of major limitations. Blender can deliver professional results, but it's going to take a lot more time

      Lightwave is not an industry leader in the field of particles. Anyone working in 3d knows that Houdini is the top dog here, and the cost of that package reflects that status.

      UI's are part taste and part ergonomics, and I personally find Blender to fail both of these tests, in my opinion. Blender seems to intentionally be as different as it can. The last thing I want to do is have to learn another set of shortcuts and conventions, especially when they are as topsy turvy as blender's. Believe me when I say the intentionally unorthodox UI is one of the biggest reasons why a lot of experienced 3d artists don't even bother with Blender (there are zero overlapping common shortcuts, except for undo, that I've found so far). Take the annoying "3d cursor" that follows around your left clicks, and is bound to confound any newcomer to 3d. What does that do? Why is it here? Why doesn't clicking in black space deselect an object or seem to do anything important? The 3d cursor is a niche tool that could easily be relegated to a sub menu where you could turn it on or off or edit it's properties. Assigning this unintuitive tool to a left click by default, the main method of interacting with objects in the viewports of most 3d software, is simply baffling. I find flippant, experimental decisions like that frustrating, personally. Of course you can take the time to learn the Blender way to do things, or you could take way less time to learn software that works more like you're used to, such as Modo or Mudbox. For example, my first time using Mudbox was an absolute joy. I was happily sculpting for days without ever having to refer to the manual. Things were layed out in a way that made intuitive sense. I would have still been trying to figure out where Blender put some common tool by the time I was already making satifying art in Mudbox. Software is allowed to be "unorthodox" if the payoff is big enough. This is how Zbrush gets away with it's wacky shit. Unfortunately, for a lot of 3d artists I know, Blender isn't worth the investment/muscle memory it takes to become proficient.

      Of course, one of the biggest problems with Blender is it's lack of a decent native renderer. Complex shaders and GI in Blender aren't really up to task currently. It's great t

  15. For naysayers/Maya users, this is good, trust me by sabernet · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I tried the beta, the UI is(or rather 'can be') very Maya-ish. They actually have a 'Maya' mode. All in all, the ability to jump in has greatly improved.

    Just a disclaimer, I royally HATED the old UI and was sick of people jumping down people's throats for saying how utterly inaccessible it was. Yet now I have to say they did a really good job. Windows can be broken off or split, everything and the kitchen sink isn't all crammed into the lower half of the screen and the shortcuts actually can be set up to make sense..

  16. Re:Fantastic News by styrotech · · Score: 2

    Return to the X way, and it makes perfect sense, unlike Photoshop, which takes over the screen, and then presents its windows within the master window.

    Isn't the Mac Photoshop multi window just like the GIMP? Or am I remembering that wrong?

  17. Great... by bradgoodman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As a "novice" Blender user (by "Novice" I mean I have only been working with it for a couple of years) - I will say Blender is the most complicated program I have every used in my life. I have always attributed it complexity, and counterintuitiveness to its unfathomable complexity and clusterf*ckery of features and options. As I'm glad to see a bit of an overhaul to make things easier - I am completely dreading having to re-learn it all. I guess on the flipside, I don't really know it all - hopefully it will be easier to learn this time around!

    1. Re:Great... by binarylarry · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Blender is easy.

      3d art applications are just hard in general. There are tons of options, 3d is hard to grok for newbies.

      Newbies can easily get blender since it's open source and free, thus there are many newbies like you running going "OMG blender hard." As someone who cut his teeth on 3ds max, I found Blender hard for the first hour (adjustment period) and it was all downhill from there.

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    2. Re:Great... by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      I will say Blender is the most complicated program I have every used in my life.

      Have you used Maya, Lightwave, or 3DStudio Max? I mean my Samsung Galaxy S is the most complicated phone I have ever used in my life, but then all I've had before are feature free Nokias.

      3D authoring simply comes with a stupidly vertical learning curve.

    3. Re:Great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      As someone who cut his teeth on 3ds max, I found Blender hard for the first hour (adjustment period) and it was all downhill from there.

      I don't think that phrase can be used in the way you're trying to use it - unless you mean Blender seemed hard at first, then it became impossible to use.

  18. Re:Fantastic News by binarylarry · · Score: 2

    Good news, it's an option.

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  19. Tool palettes that don't auto-hide on blur by tepples · · Score: 2

    is it that confusing to use a piece of software if it doesn't have a full screen title bar and gray background behind the WIP?

    On classic Mac apps with floating tool palettes, the tool palettes would hide when the user clicks to focus away from the application and reappear when the user focuses back. It's confusing to use an SDI app with floating tool palettes if the palettes don't automatically hide and unhide in this way and even more confusing if the palettes don't raise themselves above inactive apps' windows.

  20. Effort on Y and mastery on X by tepples · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When I hear "steep learning curve" as it is used colloquially, I think of effort on Y and mastery on X, just like economics graphs put price on Y and quantity on X.

  21. Blender is a how-not-to GUI case by the+agent+man · · Score: 2

    I would be happy if the new version is going to fix the mindbogglingly confusing GUI that Blender has. The version migration from 2.56?? to 2.57 is not exactly very suggestive for fundamental user interface improvements. If it actually would be then somebody really missed out on a great opportunity to create a, say, 3.0 release? People use Blender in spite, not because, of its user interface. Amazing!

    1. Re:Blender is a how-not-to GUI case by mrnobo1024 · · Score: 2

      According to the page that was linked to, 2.5x does have a redesigned GUI. They use an unconventional version number scheme where 2.50-2.52 were alpha versions and 2.53-2.56 were beta, which explains why such a major change seems to have appeared with a minor version number update - it didn't, but you probably never used the 2.50-2.56 versions.

    2. Re:Blender is a how-not-to GUI case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I disagree, one of the best pieces of advice I read was, keep one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard. A few good tutorials later (I remember the first involved modelling and texturing a castle), the alien Blender interface seemed so streamlined compared to the lengthy menu navigation in Gmax, which I was also testing out.

  22. Re:No, it is not! by jackbird · · Score: 2

    Hell, I've been dinking around with CG apps for 10 years now, and I'm still learning things when it comes to maximizing what even my most favorite and oft-used tools can do.

    Shit, I wrote a chapter for an edition of Inside 3ds Max, and I hit the helpfile at least a couple times a week and IRC/discussion forums for help daily.

  23. Re:Fantastic News by wrook · · Score: 2

    Yes. Focus follow mouse. The whole "one window" thing stems from people who refuse to use focus follows mouse as far as I can tell.

    What's ridiculous about the situation is the blind religious insistence that my *application* should implement a window manager. And a *tiling* window manager at that!

    One of the things that this whole issue has pointed out to me is that window managers are broken. I like focus follows mouse, but obviously it isn't for everyone. So we need a window manager that allows you to group your windows by application and tile them how you like inside a single window. We could even add hints to X that allows the application to specify how it thinks the windows in the app should be tiled. But putting it in the application is the *wrong* place to do it. If we do that then every app will have a different way to implement the tiling.

    But I like focus follows mouse so I've never gotten around to implementing a better window manager. I probably should do it just to stop people from sticking things all in one big bloody window...

  24. Re:No, it is not! by mini+me · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I started playing with Blender a couple of weeks ago. Being a software developer, I actually wanted to spend some time improving my skills working with 3D graphics. But what fun is that without some cool models to play with?

    I started by downloading Blender 2.4 but couldn't figure out where to start. I was about to give up but the shiny 2.5 beta was calling my name. I thought I'd give it a try.

    I went from virtually no 3D design experience to creating my first model over the course of a couple of days of periodic tinkering. It is far from perfect and I have learned a lot more since I created it, but for my first try I am very proud of it and I think it speaks to the ease of the new interface for beginners.

  25. Re: All 3D programs hard to use? Not hardly. by tangent · · Score: 2

    I've put serious learning time in on at least 5 different general-purpose 3D graphics packages, including Blender. Blender is, hands-down, the hardest to learn and use of any I've tried. It even beat out a hoary old beast from the late 90's I had to use for a course, which was chosen purely because it was ancient and therefore cheap.

    There are those that use the excuse, "It's professional grade, and pros don't cry about difficult to use tools." Well, sorry, but that only flies when there are no alternatives. If there's only one tool that does Thing X and the tool sucks, well, a pro will grit his teeth and use it anyway. That's not the case in 3D modeling / animation / rendering software. We have an embarrassment of choices, and they span a wide range of cost, power, and ease of use. Unless "freeeeee" is your only important criterion, there are usually better options than Blender, at least as of 2.4x.

    I will certainly be playing with this new 2.5 version. Maybe they're right. Maybe they've completely fixed it all, and I can get off the Cinema4D, modo and SketchUp upgrade treadmills.

  26. Did you even read the page? by tanveer1979 · · Score: 4, Informative

    ITs optional. You can go back to multi window mode if you like it that way!

    From the page
    "You won’t be forced to use it, if you don’t like single window! "

    There : you have the best of both worlds

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