RIM Collapse Beginning?

jfruhlinger writes "After the announcement of disappointing BlackBerry sales last quarter, RIM shares started to plummet. Blogger Chris Nerney wonders if this isn't the beginning of the company's death spiral, with the exodus away from RIM's BlackBerry platform too far along to stop and the company too small to compete with huge rivals like Apple and Google."

Comments

old hat

[knotprawn]

same as subject

So long,

[PeterChenoweth]

And thanks for all the Blackberries. It's been fun.

Re:So long,

[Anonymous Coward]

For a company that is still selling 15 million phones every quarter, and are only doing 40% more revenue year over year, they definitely sound like they're collapsing.

So they might not continue to grow at such an incredible rate. They're still making money hand over fist and certainly seem to have plans to fix the issues people talk about. I have a playbook and I'm generally impressed with it - lack of a few apps notwithstanding.

Re:So long,

[wiedzmin]

Remember Palm (a pioneer in PDA's and a very profitable entity) and what happened to them after the flop of Palm Foleo? BlackBerry's Playbook is their Foleo.

Re:So long,

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you used one? Some of the software doesn't exist (yet, according to RIM), but it's by far the best base OS I've seen on a tablet. And the browser is pretty good too. Somehow I don't think they're the same thing.

Re:So long,

[gstoddart]

Remember Palm (a pioneer in PDA's and a very profitable entity) and what happened to them after the flop of Palm Foleo?

I think that's when HP bought them. ;-)

So it sounds like:

1. Make popular, leading edge product
2. Suffer market decline and get bought out by HP (or another big player)
3. Profit!

Re:So long,

[517714]

When your market share drops from 19% to 14% in one quarter, that is not incredible growth. Research In Motion issued a warning stating that its smartphone sales would hit the low end of its projected 13.5 to 14.5 million in unit sales this quarter.

If they don't leapfrog their competition with their next product, they will be marginalized quickly.

Re:So long,

[gstoddart]

When your market share drops from 19% to 14% in one quarter, that is not incredible growth. Research In Motion issued a warning stating that its smartphone sales would hit the low end of its projected 13.5 to 14.5 million in unit sales this quarter.

I remember hearing about six months back (possibly even more), that the biggest problem facing RIM wasn't so much that their growth was in decline ... but that their growth relative to the rest of the smart phone market was slowing.

Even then, the number of iPhones and Android phones was growing rapidly -- which meant that RIM could keep up good growth numbers, and then get completely eclipsed by everyone else as they just get passed. RIM may have established the real market for this kind of phone, but they're quickly becoming a smaller player.

If they don't leapfrog their competition with their next product, they will be marginalized quickly.

I'd almost expect the latter. Tech people want an Android, most of the rest want an iPhone. RIM originally had the business market locked up, but I think they're losing that market to all of the other players.

Re:So long,

[gumbi west]

If they made sinks, you would be right. But in the hardware industry you usually have to have large volume to keep the price down. If they can't keep up with the other makers, then they are going to see their price rice and that is the spiral that is being talked about.

Re:So long,

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but you're forgetting that the current Mercantilism model we currently call "The Free Market" works in such a way that only way forward for any company is steady growth year after year. Just a couple of quarters with only small amounts of growth, or worse, nonexistent or negative growth is practically a death sentence these days.

captacha: supine (fuck you slashdot for managing to have me logged in to only PART of your shitty blog)

Re:So long,

[The End Of Days]

You missed the big picture in your haste to get your rant off - RIM plays in a market that is growing rapidly, but their competitors are driving all that growth while RIM is lagging behind. This means that they are not as effective as their competitors, hence they are being marginalized. It has nothing to do with requiring steady growth year over year and everything to do with the fact that RIM is falling off in a market this is growing without them.

You can't expect to win a race when you're slower than everybody else, basically. I don't know what economic model you think would fix this problem.

Re:So long,

[LWATCDR]

They should worry. There market share is dropping, and the buzz is all not good. Even their good news is not good because you hear things like "We are doing well in emerging markets". Blackberries becoming less and less popular in the US and probably Europe. And yes the US has a messed up mobile phone market between the carriers and two primary but incompatible systems GSM and CDMA but it really does seem to be one of the big centers of cell phone tech. Blackberry is one of those phones that people might keep, might replace, but they will very rarely buy new. It is in sort of the same position that Windows phone 6.x was in.
My office is a prime example. We have a few iPhone users, mostly Android users, one WebOS hold out, and no Blackberry users. We did have one but she traded in her Curve for an LG optimus.
Using an aviation metaphor it is in a spiral but has not hit the ground yet.

Re:So long,

[artor3]

Depends on the size of the market.

If you have 19% of a billion dollar market one year, and 14% of a ten billion dollar market the next, then you're in pretty good shape. You'll need to put some work in interoperability due to the connected nature of the smart phone market, but RIM is already doing that by supporting Android apps.

They may not be the dominant force they were in the crackberry years, but they're not about to die either.

Re:So long,

[gilesjuk]

How can a company that only really came about due to an innovative take on email (making it instant like SMS) release a tablet with no email capability?

It would be like Microsoft releasing a tablet that didn't have IE or the capability to view Excel or Word documents.

It is a sign of incompetence. It doesn't take much effort to keep refreshing business phones, giving them a lick of paint and better screens, but that alone doesn't improve your share price.

Re:So long,

[gilesjuk]

Reviews on the whole weren't positive. Citing poor usability (no excuse for this on a big screen tablet) and shocking lack of email capability.

http://www.wired.com/reviews/2011/04/blackberry-playbook/

QNX is a great OS. But then so is a Linux distro, but many people tend to slate the available user interfaces on Linux distros as being too clunky and amateurish compared to Windows 7 and OSX.

Re:So long,

[Anonymous Coward]

The Foleo wasn't technically a flop... the dropped it before it was released, based on the guess that it would flop. A few months later, Asus introduced the eePC, and started a trend that eventually become 10% of the PC market... down a bit recently since the advent of non-x86 tablets.

Palm wasn't far off the mark with the Foleo, but they were weak back then, and apparently caved based only on bad reviews... because the reviewers just didn't get it. While, sure, the ee's ran Windows, pretty much every practical thing you could do on an ee in '97 would have worked better on the Foleo.

RIM has a good plan here. The QNX OS in the playbook is probably the most reliable on any tablet (including iOS), it's actually working as a tablet OS, rather than the Android 3.0 pre-release we've seen on the Xoom (and I'm an Android guy, with a 2.2 tablet... it's great, today, but I had to hack things). And they're supporting Android apps. They have a very good product there.

Very Good Products don't always win, and the fact that RIM has never actually fielded a competitive smartphone since the first iPhone shipped, may lead to RIM's demise. But it's not because of the tablet.

Re:So long,

[Martin Blank]

The Foleo long-preceded (relative to tech development) the buyout by HP. Palm's future looked a little better almost two years later with the Pre, but that failed to live up to expectations, and Palm stumbled badly until the buyout a year after the Pre's launch.

Whether HP will be able to do something with it remains to be seen (we'll get an idea of how well it can do this summer), but I expect that it will do better than the Playbook in the long run. I've seen few truly positive reviews and many outright negative reviews, and even Blackberry fans are often giving it no more than mediocre ratings. The most damning review I've seen was at InfoWorld, where it was described as "unfinished, unusable."

Re:So long,

[swalve]

Market share doesn't matter in this case. It is one measure of "success" but not the only one. Apple does fine with its tiny market share in PCs. These days, everything is mostly interoperable, so it doesn't matter which platform "succeeds" because they can all work just fine and be profitable for their makers.

Re:So long,

[narcc]

How can a company that only really came about due to an innovative take on email (making it instant like SMS) release a tablet with no email capability?

To make it more attractive to their enterprise customers. With BB Bridge, you don't need to manage tablets like you need to manage your smartphone deployment -- you can just hand them out without worry. The user gets instant, secure, access to their email and files via their phone on the tablet. As RIM put's it, it's your blackberry amplified.

Considering first-day sales significantly exceeded expectations despite the slew of mediocre reviews, I'd say RIM made a pretty smart decision.

Re:So long,

[swalve]

But the finish line is profitability, not "the most sales".

Re:So long,

[larry bagina]

Just a coincidence, but both Palm and RIM used WebKit and then proceeded to talk shit about how much better/faster their browser is. I hear they replaced their development teams with a gentoo ricer tweaking the CFLAGS.

Re:So long,

[EdIII]

I read that bash article too about the Playbook which I have been waiting to get and have wondered if it is really as bad as the article says it is. I have a hard time figuring out how they are going into a death spiral too.

Having played with iPhones and some Driods, I will stick with my BB. It does exactly what I want it to do:

1) Makes phone calls pretty damn well and keeps track of them
2) Does a very good job with email
3) Has an extremely good instant message system capable of grouping and file transfers as good or better than Skype.

I don't need all the rest of the bells and whistles and my Storm is still chugging along just fine with a new battery.

My preference would be a *very* stripped down phone system that is about 90% battery, and 10% phone. Cylindrical with a very simple LCD interface showing Caller ID and some buttons to dial. That is *it*. I don't want to hold it up to my face or anything either. That's what bluetooth, or some equivalent, is very good at anyways.

It could last days, or weeks, on a single charge like my old Nokia since it is not running some super processor to play Angry Birds and do stuff that is non-phone activity.

Then, the coolest thing, would be able to plug it into a receptacle in a laptop, iPad, PlayBook, Nook, whatever and then provide network connectivity to that device once you paired it, or authorized it one time from a simple "connect" button on the top of your phone.

I will tell you this. All of the smart phones are complete utter crap, mine included. I am flabbergasted by the geek interest in these devices when pragmatically you can never get anything done on them. You spend more time futzing around with them, rooting them, fixing them, jail breaking them, than actually accomplishing communication with them, or god forbid, any real work. The exception being email as in landscape mode on my Storm I can type fairly well and still communicate effectively via email, BB, or Skype. Web browsing or anything else is a joke. Even the games are pitiful on such a small screen when you are expected to use touch to accomplish it. If you want a small gaming device get a GBA.

The dimensions alone of most smartphones preclude any real ability to have a useful UI. Something the size of the iPad makes far more sense from everything from web browsing to SSH'ing into boxes to do work. Need to remote desktop into a server? iPad. Trying to use a Storm? Masochism.

Of course I can only dream. The only reason why I have the Storm is the email capabilities. Otherwise I would have a clamshell phone and be happy with it.

There are enough quasi-Luddites out there like me that want the minimum that still gravitate towards BB's offerings for precisely the reasons I outlined.

Re:So long,

[Totenglocke]

Except sales equals number of users and the more users, the more apps you get developed - the more apps you have, the more people will want your phone / tablet. As your market share drops, even if your sales stay constant, fewer people will develop for you which causes sales to drop, which causes more developers to leave, etc.

Re:So long,

[TheRaven64]

Market share is a silly thing to measure. Revenue, sales, and profits are far more important, with profits being the only really important one. A shrinking market share in a growing market can still be an increase in total sales, it may just mean that one of your competitors is selling to people who weren't buying anything previously. If you go from 1 person owning a blackberry and 9 owning no phone at all to two owning blackberries and 8 owning some other phone, their market share has dropped from 100% to 20%, but their sales (and profit) doubled - sounds like incredible growth to me, the fact that the overall market is growing even faster is not really a problem.

It's also important to look at where their market share is. Nokia's problem was that they controlled more than 50% of the market, but it was increasingly the least profitable segment. Apple, in both the computer and phone markets, holds the most profitable segment. If a tenth as many phones as Nokia but making more than ten times as much profit on each sale, which company would you rather own shares in? RIM has traditionally done well in the corporate smartphone market. This used to be close to 100% of the total smartphone market, but now consumer smartphones are a significantly larger segment. It's not surprising that their market share would shrink.

Re:So long,

[wwphx]

I was a long time Palm user, the III, a couple of Vx's, the garbage of the TX, and finally a Z22 or something. I think the thing that killed Palm was poor QC of products from China, and the rise of the smartphone. When I wore out my Vx I made the mistake of buying a TX and it was one of the three worst electronic devices that I have ever bought. It was replaced more than once, and the replacements were just as bad. That's bad engineering, implementation, and quality control. I ended up with a Z22 (which I disassembled last week: since I can't do a memory wipe because the touch screen lost all hope of registration, I'm obliterating the chips on it with my dad's grinder the next time I'm at his house) which I must admit did give me a year or so of good service. It was replaced by a POS WinMo Dell, which was quickly replaced with an iPod Touch which has been in heavy use for over 2 years (and now needs a new headphone jack).

The iPod Touch has been a pretty good PDA with three key issues for me. First, the factory calendar program is a little weak, doesn't allow unusual time repeats for appointments, such as every 3 weeks. It also doesn't have a snooze function, which I find quite vexing. The ability to make two reminders for one appointment is helpful, but not a replacement for a good snooze. Second, no encryption. For the Palm I had a program called CryptoPad that used Twofish or Blowfish for one-way encryption and I felt confident to use it for storing server IP addresses, admin passwords, etc. No such program that I've found for the iOS allows encryption like that. And finally, the search feature for the phone doesn't go nearly as deep as I would like. I want it to also search my address book and notes, for example, to find 505 area codes that I need to change to 575. No can do.

Upon reflecting of 15+ years of PDA use, I think inability to evolve and gain market share is what killed Palm. Whether or not HP can make them viable again, we'll see. For myself, I do not yet own a smartphone, I'll probably be getting an iPhone later this year. Palm is dead to me, they'll never get another dime from my pocket.

Re:So long,

[wwphx]

One thing appealed to me about Blackberries: security. They were supposedly very secure. Then when the UAE and China and others threatened them with shutdown in their countries if RIM didn't provide compromised servers and they folded, RIM's credibility with me dropped to zero.

I was never much of a Blackberry fan, mainly because of the form factor. The iPhone has a lot more ergonomic appeal for me, the Android offerings less so.

Re:So long,

[badkarmadayaccount]

Name one thing that OS X or Win7 UI does that KDE doesn't.

Kind of early to predict that

[iONiUM]

While most indications seem to point in that direction, considering the playbook was not well received, and blackberry's current flagship devices are out-dated, at best, I feel it's kind of early to make this kind of claim.

I think blackberry has probably two more quarters to get a solid business phone that rivals Android/iPhone devices that runs "OS7" (nobody really knows what that is yet, though I do not believe it's QNX..) If they can pull that off, maybe they'll have a chance..

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Metabolife]

I have a feeling that they'll begin to focus more on software, perhaps taking their BBM service to other platforms first.

They should do what they did initially.. be rock solid on the business end, then phase back into the consumer realm.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[purpledinoz]

RIM has been too slow. I can't blame them because new Android phones have been coming out at a furious pace. I'm looking into buying a smartphone now, and Blackberries are completely out of consideration. The only thing they have going for them is rock-solid security, which is still attractive for the business market. I hope this kind of situation will put the fire under their asses to come out with something more competitive. The next few years for RIM will be rough.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[swb]

My sense is that they jumped the shark by failing to either make BES free or eliminate it and dependence on RIMs network completely.

I can remember the pre-active sync days when it got ugly within organizations when the last BES license got used up. They were expensive and buying another block wasn't always viable.

Just as soon as Activesync became viable and the onslaught of WinMo phones that supported it came out I began to see customers at the mid/small level abandon the expensive and complicated BES for direct SSL communication. No more dedicated BES server, no more expensive licenses.

Had BES become free to use it might have helped prevent the loss of those markets; eliminating it completely would have been even more beneficial.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Kenja]

Only thing Blackberry had going for it was security, which they gave away with their capitulation to United Arab Emirates and other governments instance on access. There is no reason to get a RIM device over Droid or IOS and many reasons to not get one.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[yog]

Rim makes good phones. I use Blackberries (I program on them at work) and Android (my personal phone is a Nexus One) and overall the Rim phones are more reliable as phones go. The Android/iPhone is a handheld internet portal that happens to make phone calls, not always very reliably. For example, in bright sunlight it's difficult to even see the keypad to dial a number on.

On the other hand, the app market drives phone sales nowadays, so anyone who wants something beyond a basic flip phone is likely to go with the apps and that's Android and iPhone, currently. Rim has been slow to support their developers, although their phones are reasonably easy to develop for. You do need Windows, unfortunately, or at least a way to run Windows apps, to do anything more sophisticated than a basic Java ME app. OTOH, you can't do JavaME on Android, at least without some clunky emulator.

The Rim tablet that was just announced is a baby step in the right direction, but the fact that it requires tethering a Blackberry phone to get 3G service is a giant step backward. They need to break free of their corporate mentality and market this thing to the general public, not just their loyal BB users.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[hawkbat05]

A free BES: http://us.blackberry.com/apps-software/business/server/express/

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[tripleevenfall]

Thing is, BB makes their money in the enterprise space, and that population doesn't replace phones on a whim or every 1-2 years. They made big decisions in committee, and aren't as beholden to the "must have the latest thing" mentality

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[somersault]

Don't see how the security is any better than a direct https link between Exchage and your phone. Going through 3rd party servers means plenty of risk of exploits in future even if things are fine just now. The best thing they have going for them is their cheap international roaming costs IMO.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Anonymous Coward]

Palm did this, worked out great for them.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[dimeglio]

I just got a work-provided upgrade to the Bold 9780 (standard issue here and for the foreseeable future). I'm not worried for RIM but their tablet need to do better.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[somersault]

How was their security any better than an Exchange https connection? People always go on about Blackberry security being amazing, but I just don't see it, for exactly the reasons you say and more. If you're relying on 3rd party servers, you run the risk of them selling out, being hacked, going bankrupt and someone seizing their servers, etc.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[xSquaredAdmin]

Don't see how the security is any better than a direct https link between Exchage and your phone.

I honestly am not familiar with Androids/iPhones - do they have the option for remote lockdown/wiping of the device? I know this has been used a few times where I work when someone has managed to lose their BlackBerry or has decided to not return it after being let go from the company.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[postbigbang]

Yes, and a lot more. But the major mobile device management apps deal with those three as well as Palm and Windows Mobile (some have Symbian) controls as well. The list of controls is long, and longer depending on the MDM maker. Some have to use the BES server to do their work for Blackberry while some can control it in lieu of paying RIM's price.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[49152]

The security is not any better for you, it is better for your corporate masters.

You see, they get to have complete 100% control on what you can or cannot do with the device. Event to the point of remote wipe if you loose the phone or decide to quit withouts giving it back.

That is the big difference and what they mean by "better security".

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[SteelKidney]

Full disk encryption, a firewall, granular application permissions that can clue you in to and even prevent a lot of the spyware nonsense in applications these days. HTTPS is hardly secure, as a Google search of recent news will show, and neither the BIS or BES connections rely on it. And that's just off the top of my head.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[vakuona]

Don't blame Blackberry's failings on the pace at which Android devices are coming out. Apple is doing very well without refreshing their phone every 3 months. The problem is that they are not making the right products for the market out there. The market is no longer captive, they can't just depend on being blackberry anymore as a marketing strategy. And they totally failed to _get_ apps.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Andy Dodd]

Why do people keep on talking about BlackBerry running QNX?

It's like talking incessantly about Android phones running Linux and iOS devices running BSD - the core kernel doesn't really matter that much, it's what you layer on top of it.

There's nothing new about QNX, it's been around for well over a decade. Just like there's nothing new about Linux (even about Linux on mobile phones), but Google's userland layer on top of it has made major waves in the smarphone market.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[MrMarket]

They need to break free of their corporate mentality and market this thing to the general public, not just their loyal BB users.

...or they could compete in the tablet space where no one else is: the enterprise. I would love to see someone take the paperless office seriously. Developing an application suite to help people do all the things they do with paper in the office on a tablet. There are some settings where writing an annotating is preferred over typing. If I were BB, I'd go after that user experience in the office. They should be thinking of all the reasons people still need to print stuff or write on paper (and lose it), and come up with an alternate experience on the tablet that is better. Healthcare could be a big opportunity here.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[NatasRevol]

Please explain how that's any better/different than what Apple offers?

http://www.apple.com/iphone/business/integration/

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Briden]

I hope that they do better! i'm going to upgrade my blackberry to the latest model soon and buy a playbook to support them as well. I have been a blackberry lover since the good old days. I will never buy an iphone, and android does not interest me.

i still feel that blackberries are the best phones on the market for so many reasons and hope that RIM stays strong.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[sribe]

I think blackberry has probably two more quarters to get a solid business phone that rivals Android/iPhone devices that runs "OS7" (nobody really knows what that is yet, though I do not believe it's QNX..) If they can pull that off, maybe they'll have a chance..

That would require smart & effective leadership. Have you listened to the delusional babbling of RIM's co-CEOs lately? RIM is already dead; they just won't realize it for quite a while longer.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Anonymous Coward]

How was their security any better than an Exchange https connection? People always go on about Blackberry security being amazing, but I just don't see it, for exactly the reasons you say and more. If you're relying on 3rd party servers, you run the risk of them selling out, being hacked, going bankrupt and someone seizing their servers, etc.

From what I hear, the device encryption and remote-wipe (for lost/stolen phones) was more robust than competitors, and might still be depending on how buggy the competitors' implementations are.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Anonymous Coward]

it's hard to tell a business, much less a sales organization that its not in a high-margin business any more.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[hawguy]

Just as soon as Activesync became viable and the onslaught of WinMo phones that supported it came out I began to see customers at the mid/small level abandon the expensive and complicated BES for direct SSL communication. No more dedicated BES server, no more expensive licenses.

We saw the same thing happen when exec's started clamoring for iPhones. But most of them came back to Blackberry when they realized that they were missing some important functionality, (like the ability to see availability when booking a meeting), had problems with dropped appointments accepted on their iPhone, and have had problems with missing emails -- emails that show up in their inbox on outlook and blackberry, but not on the iPhone.

For me personally, the big thing that's missing on my Android/ActiveSync mail client is a way to configure message filters to decide what to deliver to the device. I get some status messages from some devices that I generally want to read during the day, but don't want to see them on my Blackberry (and don't want to get woken up at 3am by a flurry of unimportant informational status messages, but I do want to be woken up by the ones that say we're out of disk space).

I have about a dozen filters on my blackberry to filter out the noise, and though I can set up Outlook filtering, the kind of filtering I want to do is client-only, not server side, so if Outlook isn't running on my desktop, the messages don't get filtered.

The Blackberry has another nice feature that saved my butt once - I was out of town, and our VPN concentrator failed and didn't failover to the backup device. No one could VPN into the office to fix it or even diagnose. Since my blackberry is essentially on our internal network, I was able to ssh into the backup concentrator, reboot it and get it online. All while 8000 miles from home. Took me 10 minutes to fix it, while it would have taken an hour or two to get someone to the office to fix it. I realize that this also makes the blackberry a potential back door into the network, so most people don't have unrestricted network access on their BB.

I don't think Activesync is going to push out all of the corporate RIM/BES users just yet.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[sarhjinian]

You can get third-party add-ons to manage Android phones, but it's not in the same league as BES.

For example: you can just wipe the phone to remove security policies and management apps. On a BES-locked BB, that's considerably harder.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[danomac]

When did they do that? We started phasing out blackberries where I work due to cost. Most users weren't terribly happy with the user interface of the blackberry either.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[sarhjinian]

What Apple offers can be fairly easily circumvented (all you need to do is wipe the device yourself).

The abovementioned "it's better for your corporate masters" is dead-bang-on.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously missed the part where RIM informed India that it is impossible for them to provide access to BES traffic, since the keys are never in RIMs possession. Which is probably why the BES product is the standard in the US government.

http://blog.wirelessground.com/rim-india-access-bes/

But consumer traffic? Yeah you're SOL. Just like with every other platform - except its still not cleartext in the air. RIM just has the keys.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[grub]

There's nothing new about QNX, it's been around for well over a decade.

QNX has been around since 1982.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Jawnn]

RIM has been too slow... ...only thing they have going for them is rock-solid security...

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. "Rock solid" means, in my book at least, unquestionable, bomb-proof, without "back doors" that can be opened with a key given to any government that whines loudly enough. See sibling's comments about RIM rolling over and peeing on themselves for the U.A.E.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[b0bby]

I have a BES Express server; you can control a lot of stuff on the phones, in addition to the remote wipe capabilities, and I'm sure the full BES has even more control. You can control what types of Bluetooth devices can connect, etc. It's not just secure email, there's a ton of centralized security features on these things. And when you're running your own server, the encryption is between your server and the phone; despite it going through RIM, they can't see the data. So, the big enterprise guys aren't really totally stupid, there are solid reasons why BBs are as common in enterprise situations as they are.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[phoenix_rizzen]

BES Express has been free for almost a year now. Almost the same featureset as BES, but no BES activation required on the phone. BB devices with standard BIS access can connect to BESx servers and get full data sync.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Anonymous Coward]

Better Security =
GOOD at-rest encryption (nearly trivial to grab the data from an iOS or Android device)
Comprimising an iPhone gives you direct access to ALL PASSWORDS IN THE KEYCHAIN. This includes any Activesync accounts (and thus, domain accounts re: business)
Granular app access policies
BES traffic, when done right, is NOT interceptable in any meaningful way (without someone already having access to your internal BES servers)
Email encryption and signing support
Auto-wipe after X failed password attempts
You can wipe the entire device.

You want to play games, use your personal phone. Employees have no right to complain if their employer wipes their phone if the company gave it to them, or they got permission to use the phone for company business. At that point, it's in the hands of their infosec team.

Until something else meets those requirements, Blackberry will always have a place in security-conscious businesses and in Gov't

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[somersault]

How can you be sure that they can't see the data though? Even if their current server software can't, what's to stop them changing the system so that it's possible? I'm not the tinfoil hat type, as in our company has BBs and I doubt anyone would even be interested in out email, but I always find that claim that RIM can't see the mails a little silly..

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do people keep on talking about BlackBerry running QNX?

Same reason people talk about Android like its a phone and not an OS...stupidity!

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[demonlapin]

I personally can't stand the things, but they also have multiple-day battery life with even fairly heavy usage.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[ganjadude]

I think the opposite is true (in general) about tethering. I dont WANT my tablet to have 3G, Why do i want to pay for 2 "lines" when I can tether my phone to my tablet?

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[T5]

Don't see how the security is any better than a direct https link between Exchange and your phone.

It's not an issue of data in flight. It's a matter of data at rest on the smart phone itself. BlackBerries have strong encryption that covers everything stored on the phone itself, including the removable media. No other smart phone comes close. It's FIPS (Federal Information Processing Standard) 140-2 blessed, which is good enough for sensitive but unclassified information storage by US Federal government users. It meets several other governments' requirements as well.

FIPS 140-2 certification is the only reason I'm still on a BlackBerry. iPhone 4 has crypto hardware onboard, but doesn't seem to use it for much of anything. No Android phone has crypto hardware AFAIK and there's nothing until Gingerbread in the Android specs that even comes close to what the BlackBerry has in terms of locally encrypted storage.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[jon3k]

So you can circumvent the security by doing exactly what they were trying to do to begin with? I don't get it.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow I'm glad I'm not the only one who this bothers. I have been running a bold 9700 for the past year and just recently received an iPhone since we support both i have to have something to test with. I was highly disappointed in the email client that the iPhone offered for active sync.

The lack of a way to filter messages that get delivered is an absolute killer for anyone who has to deal with on call emails and alerts on a daily basis. Also the fact that you can't change your f'ing alert tone for emails drives me insane. You can change it for phone calls and SMS based on a contact in your address book but not for emails from a contact. I have searched for apps that will do this but haven't been able to come up with any and the ones I have seen require you to forward all of your email to their server and they will send you alerts (I'm sure this is absolutely safe /sarcasm).

So for now i have my email tones turned off on my iPhone and still carry my BB around with me for my alerts.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[gladbach]

My prediction is that they release a phone that runs on android, but has BES services installed on top. Who knows, they may even simply dwindle down to a "software company" that only provides a 'blackberry services' suite that installs on top of androids and iphones.

The enterprise level of companies will not consider moving away from BES, until something similar and secure is provided by apple or google. It may happen at some point, but until that happens, RIM has a chance to turn things around.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Lucky_Norseman]

RIM has been too slow... ...only thing they have going for them is rock-solid security...

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. "Rock solid" means, in my book at least, unquestionable, bomb-proof, without "back doors" that can be opened with a key given to any government that whines loudly enough. See sibling's comments about RIM rolling over and peeing on themselves for the U.A.E.

The only key RIM can give anyone is for the BIS users. Enterprise (BES) users can make their own key and that key exists only on the enterprise server and its associated phones. RIM cannot give this key to anyone because they simply don't have it.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[sarhjinian]

No, because wiping the security now means you have an unmanaged, insecure device. With a Blackberry, that policy will survive a reboot.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[cdrguru]

Right. The whole RIM-UAE thing is concerning BIS-connected phones only. BES, which is what anyone with their own server is using, is completely different. With BES (yes even the free BES Express) the key is generated on the BES server that you own. The key isn't available to RIM and therefore whatever RIM has to do with the traffic with BES (unclear if they have anything at all to do with it), they can't see the content.

BIS, on the other hand, is completely in the hands of both the cell phone carrier and RIM. It involves polling of the email servers and whatever security there might be isn't too terribly hard to get around. Remember, your cell phone carrier is polling your email, pulling it down and sending it to the phone. If the traffic to the phone is encrypted, well la-de-da, the email is in plain text on the carrier's server.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[acoustix]

Over a year ago.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[yog]

well you have a pretty good point. I tether my tablet and laptop with my Android phone all the time and I am not about to pay for two data plans.

But apparently millions of people do want 3G built into their tablets. If money's not an object, it sure would be convenient.

I'd like it if they had a deal like the Kindle 3G, where you get a "just-enough" data plan for a one-time $50 up-front cost, so you can check email and do minor downloads without need to tether or hotspot.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[tlhIngan]

Only thing Blackberry had going for it was security, which they gave away with their capitulation to United Arab Emirates and other governments instance on access. There is no reason to get a RIM device over Droid or IOS and many reasons to not get one.

Actually, this only affects BIS users. BES uesrs have a Blackberry-BES shared key and remain private. So even though BES sends all data to RIM's network, RIM can't get access to your emails, and never could. (No company would use it if RIM ended up getting access to all their private emails, and would put RIM in a position to blackmail them AND their competitors).

But BIS users though, were pretty screwed.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[dave562]

Even with a new OS they are done. Companies are dumping Blackberry Enterprise Server (BES) left and right. I wrote a post about this a week or two ago. Now that both Apple and Android can sync directly with Exchange, nobody needs a BES server. IT departments cannot justify the thousands of dollars in support contracts and license fees to keep BES online when that same functionality is available for free in iPhone and Android.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Xest]

That and whilst the iPhone overtook the Blackberry in marketshare early last year, Blackberrys pulled back ahead of the iPhone again a month or two later and held the lead until year end. The iPhone may have pulled ahead again now, but either way, being able to pull back ahead of Apple and hold that lead for around 9 months isn't really the sign of a dying company.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[sjbe]

Rim makes good phones.

That depends very much on what you mean by "good phones". While I haven't used their very latest offerings, my experiences with Blackberries is that they work fine but the interface is very annoying to me. I'm geeky enough to not be bothered by a complicated device but I just can't warm up the interface. The Blackberry devices have their charms but they have some serious annoyances too. I'm pretty agnostic about my choice of phone but I haven't seen a Blackberry yet that I'd spend my own money to buy. Personal preference of course.

The Android/iPhone is a handheld internet portal that happens to make phone calls, not always very reliably.

No argument but I would describe the Blackberries as email devices that happen to make calls - not always very reliably.

For example, in bright sunlight it's difficult to even see the keypad to dial a number on.

Really? I've never had a problem with any iPhone or Android phone I've used in sunlight. You can dial the screen brightness up you know. I does get washed out for some uses (taking pictures) but it's never been so bad I couldn't dial.

They need to break free of their corporate mentality and market this thing to the general public, not just their loyal BB users.

I don't think it's in their corporate DNA. I'd be pleased to be wrong but I think their development cycles are too slow, they don't have the design chops of Apple, and their business model is based on selling to businesses and keeping them through dependence on their backend software. Their phones are fine but nothing amazing. I don't know anyone who owns a blackberry who didn't get it in some manner via their job. I just think they're not equipped to deal with the recent changes in the smartphone market. Their focus on enterprises will keep them in the game for now but if Google or Apple can provide equivalent back end administration (and right now they don't) then RIM's future prospects become much dimmer.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Anonymous Coward]

As an admin you wouldn't have been terribly happy with BES, either. It gets the job done but it's horribly bloated and over engineered if you just want your users to be able to receive emails quicker than the non-BES Internet mail service. I would just as soon let users run iPhones and Android units with ActiveSync on Exchange and ditch BES.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[LordLimecat]

and blackberry's current flagship devices are out-dated, at best,

That has been the case for YEARS. You dont buy a Blackberry for personal use, or for its Multimedia capabilities (or if you do, youre daft); you buy it for its slick email, calendaring, and contacts integration, and for their incredible manageability.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[LordLimecat]

My sense is that they jumped the shark by failing to either make BES free

BES IS free now. Its called Blackberry Express, and it works just as well as the old BES. I have deployed it twice now, and it works perfectly-- better, in fact, than ActiveSync.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[LordLimecat]

Android is in an entirely seperate market than Blackberry. Basically, if the user is choosing his phone, he will get an iPhone or Android. If corporate IT is choosing it, they will choose Blackberry if they have any sense whatsoever.

Unless of course you like dealing with pushing trusted certs, and changed windows / email passwords, and reconfiguring ActiveSync when your topology changes, and all the rest.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[LordLimecat]

Going through 3rd party servers means plenty of risk of exploits

You already go through 3rd parties, its called the "internet", and there is a solution-- encryption. Which is why all BES communications are 3DES or AES encrypted.

If there are ever exploits for AES, then Blackberries are the LEAST of our concerns.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[LordLimecat]

There is no reason to get a RIM device over Droid or IOS and many reasons to not get one.

Clearly, you have never managed a BES, and I rather suspect you have never managed ActiveSync. Its night and day, comparing them.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Anonymous Coward]

Having sold mobiles to corporate BES costs are usually structured into the deal in a way that make a small impact to the final total cost.

I think lack of innovation from RIM is whats killing them.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[greg1104]

When did they do that?

Too late for it to matter. BlackBerry seems to have lost any sort of forward vision for expansion a long time ago, instead being focused on extracting maximum profit from existing customers. They didn't do obvious things like release a free BES, which never should have been an important profit center, until after so much of their market was eaten by competitors that it was too late for that to help. They reacted similarly to the need to include a useful web browser on their phone--wait until competitors have had one for years before realizing it was important.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Bert64]

How good is that at-rest encryption? Can you configure it so the key needs to be entered in order to boot the device? The only implementations i've seen were able to boot and start working (the screen was locked by default), therefore the crypto key must be on the device just waiting for someone with the right skills to find it...

Compromising any device gives you access to passwords stored on it, exploiting a blackberry would give you the same level of access as exploiting an iphone, the difference is that the blackberry is more of a black box and less understood by whitehats... You can guarantee that blackhats somewhere will be looking into them if they havent already... Read the comments made by the guy who compromised the blackberry at the pwn2own contest.

BES traffic cant be intercepted, but neither can SSL... The weaknesses in SSL have been down to certificate signing, but that's not a problem when you sign the certificate yourself and configure your phone to trust only that cert.

Other devices can be remote wiped, and can auto wipe after failed unlock attempts...

Android also has pretty granular app access policies, not sure what ios has in this regard.

What kind of email encryption and signing support do blackberry devices have? i couldn't see any options for s/mime or pgp on the one i had (aside from a third party costly pgp addon)....

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Anonymous Coward]

BB/BES is still strong in the corporate market. One possible scenario is it becomes a legacy platform that customers are locked into but no one really likes -- think Lotus Notes.

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[Anonymous Coward]

Blackberry as in what that ignorant ape in the White House is addicted to!

Re:Kind of early to predict that

[b0bby]

Well, I can't be SURE, but if the encryption is done as it is represented to be done, then the keys are only exchanged between the phone & the server & RIM doesn't know the keys. I can't be sure that my SSL connections aren't being MITM'd either, but if everything's working properly then they should be secure.

Sensationalize much?

[ArhcAngel]

WOW...I guess that's why I don't read IT World.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[Moby Cock]

Agreed. The BB has always been and continues to be very well suited for enterprise use. The foreseeable future has a place for BB and RIM.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[wsxyz]

Yea, keep dreaming that it's just IT World. Go look at Google news and search on RIM. Even the Canadian newspapers are questioning RIM's future.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Indeed. WE'll complete ignore that this is a debt free company with a strong portfolio, significant income, and expanding user base, and go right to the doom and gloom headline.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in a warehouse and ALL of us management have blackberries. You know the second a recall is put out, know the case total the second the wave is dropped, and communication is instant. Our company is setup so that all stats are tracked and delivered via BBM. I can't speak for the entire business world obviously, but in my company a blackberry is a must have tool.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even the Canadian newspapers are saying it? Well now I don't know what to believe!

Re:Sensationalize much?

[somersault]

All smartphones can do that these days.. my winmo phone could do it 6 years ago, and my Android can do it now, as long as the server supports push functionality.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[Anonymous Coward]

No Debt eh?
Then they are a prime target for a takeover.
Companies if their size are better off having a whole shed load of debt if they want to keep their independence in the long term.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[COMON$]

Sorry, that is a lie. BB no longer has a place in my enterprise environments. They are expensive, require additional data plans with Verizon (on top of the regular data plan). The devices themselves offer only basic functionality.

In the real world enterprises we are moving away from BB because they are not offering what Apple and Android can. Apple and Android have better word processing, far superior web capabillites, robust applications, and with servers like Good, we no longer have the dependency on BES.

So sorry, NO, in the real enterprise world we are tired of dealing with BB Battery pulls, expensive hardware and software, and a lack of innovation to give us what we want.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[ArhcAngel]

Sorry, that is a lie.

A lie? seriously! How pompous and arrogant you must be

They are expensive, require additional data plans with Verizon

That is Verizon's fault not RIM's. Maybe it's your mobile provider you should change.

So sorry, NO, in the real enterprise world we are tired of dealing with...

I don't remember giving you my proxy to make blanket statements for me and I doubt you speak for the entire enterprise world. For organizations that don't need the stability and security that a BES/Blackberry provide there are indeed some moving toward other devices. For any group that deals in sensitive information they need to protect there just isn't any competitor to RIM yet. And no the iPhone is not as secure and Android doesn't even have native security just yet.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[ArhcAngel]

Your comparing apples and oranges. There's a difference between being able to do something and being able o do something well. Android and iOS browse the web good where until OS6 RIM could browse the web...but not good. The win-mo phones could kludge together a push notification but it was not good, or easy. RIM still has a way to go on it's UI and apps to be good at it but they are still better than anything out there when it comes to communicating. Which is what a phone is for.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[jon3k]

What security features do you use in BES that you can't get with iOS and a MDM platform? Honestly curious. I connect iOS devices to our network using IPSec VPN (Cisco ASA 5500). That's pretty darn secure as far as I'm concerned. Is that not adequate security for you?

Re:Sensationalize much?

[jon3k]

I think you're only considering the short term. RIMs market share has been shrinking dramatically over the course of the last couple years, at a truly alarming rate.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[acoustix]

Deploy and manage applications
Schedule device, application and IT policy updates
Update BlackBerry Device Software wirelessly
Manage user settings and control groups with over 450 IT policies

None of these features are available on iPhone or Android.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

They're not gaining new users at as fast a rate as the competition; however they *are* growing year over year.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[Brianech]

Yeah sorry I wasnt logged in (no clue why not) But my company uses BBM because it works over wireless networks. When you are inside a massive warehouse, inside the different areas (frozen/dairy/meat sections), you dont always get wireless coverage. This is why we are set up with BBM, because BBM works through wireless without needing to be connected to a service provider. If TXT's worked without a service provider then it could be a different story. For now we dont really have a choice.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[somersault]

Okay, but smartphones also work on wifi! You could use push email, IM, IRC, etc if you wanted.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[Bert64]

That is Verizon's fault not RIM's. Maybe it's your mobile provider you should change.

No actually it is RIM's fault, since their service requires using the blackberry APNs and not the standard data APN offered by most mobile providers. Mobile providers typically charge extra for this because it costs them extra.

maybe nokia could buy them

[burki]

and close them down as symbian before handing the keys over to microsoft

Re:maybe nokia could buy them

[Anonymous Coward]

Supposedly, a big hunk of Symbian is being sold to Accenture. A bunch of the old Metrowerks folks are going to be getting job offers. The deal will take a couple of months to go through.

Re:maybe nokia could buy them

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a press release about the Symbian deal.

RIMM Put Contracts

[Anonymous Coward]

The put option volume on RIM stock is staggering. Just today alone there have been 67 put contracts sold at a $27.50 strike price for January 2013. Even crazier is that even though those contracts are currently $20 out of the money, they still sold in the $1.50 range... Certainly the market is betting that RIM is toast.

Re:RIMM Put Contracts

[Anonymous Coward]

Jan 2013? That's an awful lot of time decay there. Just a random example--the bid-ask spread on T Jan 2013 puts at 20 ($11 out of the money) is $0.71-$0.75.

RIMM has always been volatile (note, that doesn't mean risky, it just means the stock wiggles around a lot). That increases the prices on all their options.

Glad I don't buy these tech companies though. I'm mostly interested in dividends. Dividends are harder (though not impossible) to fake (Madoff).

Re:RIMM Put Contracts

[teknopurge]

A whole 67 contracts? Are you kidding me?

Re:RIMM Put Contracts

[Anonymous Coward]

Google's stock fell even worse than RIM, so it can't be the Android... Apple is the only one doing fairly well these days.

Woah, what's up with Motorola, they're on a roll...

Re:RIMM Put Contracts

[iluvcapra]

The put option volume on RIM stock is staggering. Just today alone there have been 67 put contracts sold at a $27.50 strike price for January 2013.

And there are 5500 puts $10 in the money :P

Basically what you're telling us is somebody had $100 and decided to play the ponies. Wasn't you, was it?

Recent marketing

[AndyAndyAndyAndy]

As many in the U.S. (and elsewhere?) have probably seen, they've been trying to market the BlackBerry as a social networks platform... quite explicitly at least, for "flirting." You know, the very unrealistic ads featuring hipster boys and girls raving about how BBM lets them connect. (Finally!)

Anyway, it's a huge departure from what people associate with BB and is obviously a bit of a desperation tactic. You can bet they're trying to cash in on the affluent youth, but if it's backfiring, it may alienate the corporate buyers from investing in the newer BB models.

A risky move, and unfortunately for RIM, it doesn't look like it will work.

Re:Recent marketing

[kevinmenzel]

Seems to be working fine for them in Canada... most of the high school kids I know buy blackberry as their first smartphone... and I know that CIBC just bought a lot of blackberries for one of their departments about 3 weeks ago... (Replacing pagers and older non-BB phones)

Re:Recent marketing

[mewsenews]

Up here in Canada the local hip hop station has been playing a song called "swaggberry" talking about how if you don't have a BBM pin, where you bin?

It's an awful song and it's so obviously bought and paid for

Re:Recent marketing

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Given the Sidekick's gruesome demise at the hands of Microsoft, RIM actually has a pretty strong claim to being the dominant "good messaging dumbphone" of choice. Because of the emphasis on solid keyboards, and the ability to reuse the stuff they've been refining for corporate since forever, they are nicer than the no-name junk; but their comparatively modest hardware specs and data use make them cheaper than the smartphones that people actually want. At least if advertising in my area(and observation of what younger student types are carrying) is any indication, they are indeed among the most common devices in the 'one cut above a pure dumbphone' niche. Corporate doesn't seem to care, since this hasn't changed RIM's style very much, outside of a few gimmicky consumer-oriented handsets.

It isn't a high-margin market; but it isn't a small one.

Re:Recent marketing

[tripleevenfall]

The problem with trying to pull business from the consumer market with Blackberry Messenger is that it doesn't do you any good unless your friends have Blackberries too.

Re:Recent marketing

[bogaboga]

Seems to be working fine for them in Canada...

Question is..."For how long?" The trend lines are not in RIM's favour!

most of the high school kids I know buy blackberry as their first smartphone...

That is until they discover Android. Take the Galaxy line of phones from Samsung. The latest Galaxy S2 leaves the newest BlackBerry phone in the dust if you exclude enterprise capabilities. These features do not matter that much to those high school kids. I know because I teach them.

Re:Recent marketing

[grub]

You can bet they're trying to cash in on the affluent youth

Affluent youth, at least around here, are buying iPhones and Android phones. The ones with Blackberries have them as the units were free (or dirt cheap) with their contracts. You don't see many high end Blackberries in the hands of the kids.

Re:Recent marketing

[Abreu]

Blackberry messenger was, until a few months ago THE ultimate social network for yuppie kids in Mexico, but WhatsApp has been replacing it almost everywhere.

A lot of kids still love their Blackberries, though (the Curve is the favorite model, by far)

Re:Recent marketing

[bennomatic]

Unless they make an iPhone and/or Android app (yeah yeah, WP7 and WebOS, too) to allow those users to keep in touch with their BBM-using friends. They'd have to come up with some really compelling use for it--like maybe it'd also provide a front-end for Facebook or Twitter--but the issue you raised could indeed be addressed with some creativity.

Re:Recent marketing

[cyber-vandal]

Same here in the UK. Blackberries seem to be in the phones of the young and trendy (i.e. not me ;-)). I see plenty of cool kids with them and very few with iPhones. The iPhones seem to be in the hands of rich students or middle-aged people who wish they were still cool.

Re:Recent marketing

[PReDiToR]

All the kids in Mexico will be pissed when they have to re-register and connect up with all their friends again.

First year FREE! ($1.99/year after)

Source: http://www.appbrain.com/app/whatsapp-messenger/com.whatsapp

My Sister came back from Tenerife raving about it and saying how useful it was, so I checked the permissions. I wouldn't dare install it to my Android, even without the bait and switch.

Re:Recent marketing

[jon3k]

The statistics from every market research firm on the planet contradicts your anecdotal evidence by at least 3:1.

Re:Recent marketing

[davidbrit2]

I don't think I would admit to listening to a Canadian hip-hop station, even to make a valid point such as that.

Re:Recent marketing

[itsenrique]

This is hilariously terrible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRAuheRHAGo Judge for yourself.

Re:Recent marketing

[phoenix_rizzen]

Android 1.5 included support for instant messaging with folks on the BBM network. My wife used it on her LG Eve. It's not perfect, but it works.

Android 1.6 or newer should have better support for it.

Re:Recent marketing

[LordLimecat]

The fact that Blackberries can hold a charge through an entire day of talking surely counts for something?

Anyways, everyone knows that corporate is where blackberries shine. Im sure theyd love to get more customers, but it is primarily a business phone.

Re:Recent marketing

[Paul1969]

The fact that Blackberries can hold a charge through an entire day of talking surely counts for something?

Guess you don't have kids. Teens don't talk on phones, they text.

Re:Recent marketing

[Abreu]

I saw the same screen, and thought that $2 US dollars per year were affordable enough, even for me in the third world.

And the permissions needed by it are comparable to other instant messaging apps.

Beginning of Spiral?

[BoRegardless]

I truthfully believe the beginning of the spiral started as a very very small circle of people at the center of a spiral that only the RIM Board and Execs saw and either ignored or misunderstood.

The moment the spiral started was when Steve Jobs stood alone on a black stage and pointed a colorful touch screen at the audience and then spoke convincingly of the world to come in personal communications.

I am an outsider, but from what I see, if you wait 3-4 years in a new market evolution-revolution, you die. What buzz does RIM have with the 15-35 crowd? What patent portfolio will give it substantial leverage against Apple? What magnificent design team exists which will drop the next major jump onto the market to show that RIM is here now?

Re:Beginning of Spiral?

[UnknowingFool]

I don't think RIM had ignored or misunderstood the threat of iPhone or Android. I just think their responses have not been great. If you look at the launch of the Storm you see many parallels with the Playbook. The Storm was designed to compete with the iPhone but the phone when launched was buggy and unstable at times. RIM appeared to have rushed it out. By the time they fixed everything, it was another iPhone killer and largely ignored.

Re:Beginning of Spiral?

[Anonymous Coward]

We've pretty much seen that the most complete patent portfolio in the mobile industry wasn't enough leverage against Apple (right or wrong...) so I doubt RIM has anything substantial.

Re:Beginning of Spiral?

[narcc]

What buzz does RIM have with the 15-35 crowd?

BBM, of course. Did I mention that BBM (with it's 39 million users) is significantly cutting into SMS among the 15 to 24 crowd?

What magnificent design team exists which will drop the next major jump onto the market to show that RIM is here now?

RIM very recently (December) acquired The Astonishing Tribe -- the Swedish UI design team that needs no introduction. Check out some of their stuff

They've actually made a good number of very smart acquisitions last year. QNX is obviously the most exciting. They also picked up Data Viz, the makers of the popular Documents To Go office suite, giving RIM's customers some very enticing software out-of-box.

RIM's lineup of phones this year is also rather exciting -- it's about time too! The Bold Touch is certainly going to be a hit with the enterprise and the BB faithful and, of course, it has its consumer-grade companion in the Curve Touch. For the touch-screen only crowd, the Monaco/Monza is (finally) an up-to-date and usable device, with the Torch 2 filling in the gap between pure productivity and entertainment.

The Bold Touch (and Curve counterpart) is a whole new concept that is sure to spawn imitators. In the mean time, it certainly stands out in the sea of touch-slab phones. The brilliant design, coupled with RIM's best-in-class messaging, is sure to be a hit with the both the youth and enterprise markets.

Re:Beginning of Spiral?

[Paul1969]

Hmm, what's the BlackBerry equivalent of "fandroid"? Although narcc sounds more like a paid "corporate spokesperson" this time.
Reality check time. Seems most of the 39 million new BBM users are located outside the US. Yup, RIM is really getting youth buzz in South Africa and Indonesia!
It's not going to help.

Re:Beginning of Spiral?

[narcc]

Yup, RIM is really getting youth buzz in South Africa and Indonesia!

RIM is doing astonishingly well in emerging markets, but that isn't the only place where RIM is doing very well. In 2010, they were the best selling smartphone brand in Canada, the US, and the UK.

In December 2010, GfK estimates 500,000 Blackberry devices were sold (putting them at #1). That same month, they captured 36% of the smartphone market, 15% of the TOTAL mobile phone market, 51% of all pre-paid smartphones.

Of course, I'm a corporate shill because the facts don't match your preconceptions.

Re:Beginning of Spiral?

[Anonymous Coward]

What magnificent design team exists which will drop the next major jump onto the market to show that RIM is here now?

The Astonishing Tribe.

RIM RIP

[tigqc016]

RIM has three options. 1) Continue the course they are on and become a niche player in smartphone market. 2) Transition to Android, port their systems to this new O/S and maintain their viability. 3) Get purchased by third party who transitions RIM's systems to third party's systems. An Apple purchase would be sweet as it would get Apple access to BBM and Enterprises, kill off competing Pad. Purchase by MS would mean port to WP7 (embrace, extend, extinguish). Purchase by Android marker would give similar outcome as an Apple purchase. as I see it (aisi)

Re:RIM RIP

[david.emery]

I think there's a 4th alternative: Understand and focus on their -core market-, which is corporations. One could be very profitable selling secure and manageable (from the IT/CIO sense) phones and pads to just the Fortune 500 and governments.

What surprised/disappointed me about the Playbook was the absence of the level of information assurance support for that device. It's the Blackberry's primary selling point to what I see as their core market. Better to have announced a delay associated with "getting the security right the first time" than to push out the incomplete stuff they did do.

And for the record, I turned down a Blackberry as a govt/DARPA contractor back in '02, and have NEVER regretted that decision since. I don't find much utility in devices (Blackberries or iPhones) for email that don't have a full-size keyboard and something that can display more than a Twitter's worth of text at a time.

Re:RIM RIP

[rsborg]

An Apple purchase would be sweet as it would get Apple access to BBM and Enterprises, kill off competing Pad. Purchase by MS would mean port to WP7 (embrace, extend, extinguish). Purchase by Android marker would give similar outcome as an Apple purchase. as I see it (aisi)

RIM is right to step wide clear of Android... in that way lies commodity, and RIM's margins and sales are well above commodity level.

Regarding the Playbook, I doubt Apple sees it as a legitimate competitor, and I honestly don't think Apple even cares about the "Enterprise" in that large corporations are difficult customers (they are more stringent about their needs, and can't be dazzled by design as compared to the consumer). Microsoft has already gotten into bed with Nokia, I don't think they can afford to dilute that purchase yet.

I see RIM living or dying by their own OS and platform.

Re:RIM RIP

[Karlt1]

2) Transition to Android, port their systems to this new O/S and maintain their viability.

Right, because that's worked so well for other Android manufacturers that are extremely profitable like Motorola Mobility.....

Re:RIM RIP

[mario_grgic]

From technology stack RIM is a horrible fit for Apple. Considering RIM is built on Windows and related toolchain (back office and services, not device OS or device apps) and employs mostly Windows developers, it would more sense for Microsoft to purchase them. But I don't know how likely that is any more. Microsoft first has to chew and spit out Nokia before it considers buying/partnering with another telco.

Just look at the state of development tools for BB and you will be shocked at how primitive they are, how windows centric and how involved it is to get started. Actually developer tools are even more behind the state of the art (more than 5 years) than the BB handsets. In this day and age when one can issue BASH one liner to get entire Android code base and all the tools from any UNIXish machine, having something primitive as BB dev tools is an embarrassment.

Stability

[TheNinjaroach]

RIM's Blackberry platform was years ahead of the game. Since then, Microsoft released ActiveSync which furthered their Exchange dominance and enabled email, calendar and contact syncing on just about every other phone platform available.

Meanwhile, RIM clings to their dying subscription-based revenue model and does nothing to address any of the stability concerns on their phones. We have C-level executives today using brand new Blackberries that lock up or fail to sync on a daily basis - and the best help our Email guys can offer is for them to remove the battery for a few seconds before powering the phone back on.

Seriously RIM, you have the most mature EMail-centric phone platform on the planet, but your phones are lagging behind the much younger competition in critical areas like stability. I guess that's why we're recommending Android or iPhone to all of our business users with phones up for replacement..

Re:Stability

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously RIM, you have the most mature EMail-centric phone platform on the planet, but your phones are lagging behind the much younger competition in critical areas like stability. I guess that's why we're recommending Android or iPhone to all of our business users with phones up for replacement..

Why do you think they bought QNX? I'm not jumping ship for at least another year to see what they do with that. Their playbook base os is downright amazing, regardless of the lacking applications.

Re:Stability

[mrmagos]

The "won't sync" issue is not unique to Blackberry devices; I've seen the same issue with Android devices and iPhones, albeit much, much less often. Popping the battery out usually helps with Android phones, though you can't do that with an iPhone - you need to completely remove the account info, power down the device, then enter the account info back in before the ActiveSync connection can be reestablished.

Re:Stability

[fermion]

It is easy to write off RIM, just like it es easy to write off Apple. The iPhone will never compete against Nokia. The iPhone will never sell through a single vendor. Globally Nokia stills dominates, and does not use Android. Apple is becoming the top handset seller. In fact, Android does not apear to be able to compete direct against the iPhone, as now that there is Verizon iPhone, Android market share has fallen.

Android is the current thing. Many vendors are making many phones, and they are selling. yet the iPhone 4 and 3GS i s still outselling any individual Android phones according to current figures. Google did the right thing in not trying to recreate the iPhone experience, i.e. the end user comes before the telco, but instead creating a variation of the traditional model in which handset manufacturers build to the needs of the mobile phone companies.

Likewise, RIM is doing something good by building products that meet the needs of corporate goverence. With an iPhone or an Android, when cental admin wipes your phone you feel violated. With a RIM this is SOP. Rim would be silly to just replicate the iPad. Even MS is not silly enough to do that. To build sales they must incrementally create a market for a different kind of tablet. The motorola xoom, with a weak 250K sales in the quarter, tells us that there is a very small market for the iPad clone. Apple sold 10X that many iPads. iPad 1 sold 1 million the first week week.

I am not going to use a Blackberry device for the exact reason that it is not a personal device. But i know that certain firms like the blackberry work flow, and they want a tablet. MS is not giving them a solution, but if Blackberry does then presumably such firms will buy such a tablet. Furthermore it seems that consumers are sometimes choosing an iPad over a MS Windows PC. If Blackberry can make a tablet that corporate chooses over a MS Windows PC, then that would be a good growth area.

Re:Stability

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile, RIM clings to their dying subscription-based revenue model and does nothing to address any of the stability concerns on their phones. We have C-level executives today using brand new Blackberries that lock up or fail to sync on a daily basis - and the best help our Email guys can offer is for them to remove the battery for a few seconds before powering the phone back on.

Well, then your IT people don't know how to manage a blackberry enterprise server and/or exchange/groupwise/notes.

RIM (and others) offer reasonably priced courses on how to manage your infrastructure.

And there are third-party management tools from Boxtone & Zenprise which will do it all for you, and monitor everything.

Frankly, your IT people are morons, and your C-level people are also morons for not hiring decent IT people.

Re:yo momma

[Altus]

Bam balam

Re:yo momma

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

The blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice.

I don't know

[Haedrian]

My impression is that RIM phones are kinda like Jags. You buy them to 'show off' that you're a buisinessy type.

You'd expect a hot-shot businessman to use serious phones like Blackberries. You don't expect him to mingle with the rest of us and our androids or iOSes.

BB had been technologically backwards for ages. They barely have any touchscreen devices (its 2011 people), and the app store is more 'serious'.

So I don't know, I think RIM was dying for ages. Just that its a 'show off' phone, so its aimed at people who want to look 'fessional but don't know jack about technology. So lots of people.

Re:I don't know

[eNygma-x]

Thats funny everytime I saw a "business" person with a blackberry.... I always thought of them as technically inept. =)

Re:I don't know

[kevinmenzel]

They barely have touchscreen devices? They've had the Torch out for a while, and the Storm out for even longer. They're adding touch to the curve and the bold this year. And people don't buy blackberries because they "don't know jack about technology." I bough my blackberry, and will continue to buy blackberry phones in the future because: a) The battery life is wonderful. Stock battery lasts me a good solid 3-4 days between charges. That means that when I switch to a heavy use scenario for some reason, I don't have to worry that I only have half of a battery left, I can still get it to a charger before it dies. b) Phone quality. The Blackberry is a GREAT PHONE. The sound quality is good. The sound quality - for OTHER PEOPLE I'm calling is good. When I go to speakerphone, I can easily hear the other person - and generally those other people can hear me just as well as they could when I was not on speakerphone. It is important to me that the phone I buy be a damn good phone. I have never used a Blackberry that isn't. c) Emphasis on communication first. The entire platform is build around communication. Facebook chat notifications are well integrated into the system. Twitter notifications of all sorts are well integrated into the system. E-mail management is wonderful - and on the BIS side - easy to control. And the keyboard is great. Well placed, and designed so that it took very few weeks before I could not only type without looking at either my keyboard or my screen, but also use symbols, etc. without looking. Those are my priorities, and Blackberry is very very good at meeting those priorities. That's typically why most of my friends also buy blackberries. They don't care about apps - they want to communicate, and if something can take the occasional picture, or whatever - that's just a bonus to the desired use case of communication. And that, I think, is pretty clearly not having to do with not knowing about technology, just having entirely different priorities.

Re:I don't know

[Anonymous Coward]

You mention BB has been technologically backwards for ages yet they were (one of, if not) the first to revolutionize the speed of email delivery to a handheld device with their 'hang and poll' technique. The instant an email arrived on their server, it was also received on each and every device polling the mailbox. This goes back to before they made phones, when they were only selling email-capable pagers - the original BBs.

Re:I don't know

[ThatCanadianGuy]

And a High end Android or iPhone isnt? They're worse than a BB by a long shot. BB's are very nondescript phones. How many people actually use them for what they are made for?

Re:I don't know

[technoviper]

Not the case any more. I transitioned our firm from Blackberries to iPhones a year ago, and its been a roaring success. Its just so much more user friendly, even our technically inept users who had trouble using some of the functionality on RIM devices took to the iPhones very easily. Add to that the numerous apps available and its become the most popular business tool in the company, even more so than laptops. I know of other firms as well that have moved over with similar results. So I dont think it can be said that business is the sole domain of RIM

Re:I don't know

[Anonymous Coward]

Just that its a 'show off' phone, so its aimed at people who want to look 'fessional but don't know jack about technology.

And paranoid security geeks like me.
Blackberry - the only platform where the user gets to dictate the security permissions apps get (not the app developers).

As soon as the other guys get off their asses on security, I'll jump ship immediately.

Just that its a 'show off' phone

As apposed to the fashion accessory? "ZOMG IT COMES IN WHITE NOW!!!".

Re:I don't know

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm certainly not clueless or corporate, been coding systems stuff for ages.

Blackberries are great phones. With email and messengers integrated it's all I need.
Solid software, battery lasts ages, great sound quality -- hell, I've run one over with the car and it survived with some scuffs (8330); keyboard is awesome. Full-device strong encryption.

So if you want a toy, there's plenty of other options. If you want a solid communications device, the Blackberry platform is great. And that's what they need to continue to focus on.

But they do need to keep innovating. Switching to QNX would be a good step - almost 30 years of RTS development there.

Re:I don't know

[jittles]

My impression is that RIM phones are kinda like Jags. You buy them to 'show off' that you're a buisinessy type.

OMG my boss to the tee. I was in a conference call with him a couple of weeks ago and he was giving the guy his contact info. Here's how it went:

Boss: If you need to reach me you can call me on my blackberry at 555-555-1212
Guy: Ok so that is your cell phone number?
Boss: Yes that is my blackberry number.

Come on. Can't you just call it a cellphone like everyone else?

Re:I don't know

[Haedrian]

They barely have touchscreen devices? They've had the Torch out for a while, and the Storm out for even longer. They're adding touch to the curve and the bold this year.

BB Storm:November 14, 2008
iPhone: June 29, 2007
Nokia 5800 Xpress: January 2, 2008

Bit late to the whole touchscreen party don't you think? These weren't the first phones to have touchscreen on them. Now tons of phones have touchscreens... and they have... wow... 2. One of which is 2 and a half years old. Oh right and the playbook. Heh.
-
The Modern market isn't buying mobiles just to phone with them. They get them for the apps. Which is why having good sound quality isn't much of a large sales emphasis as you may think. Granted, blackberries are good PHONES, compared to well.. other phones, but you're not going to use them as an app platform. Which I don't think is such a good way of surviving in this modern market.

Plus they're expensive, they're aroudn the same price as one of those modern mobile phones which actually has a ton of apps.

Re:I don't know

[Anonymous Coward]

You're analysis is way off. RIM succeeded because they got companies to buy their products, which is why you still see many business types using them. They had a decent interface with Exchange which most companies still use. It was never a style or show off phone, it was just one of the few devices at the time in which you could get your company e-mail. Nowdays people have multiple choices, and they like the Android and iPhone offerings much better, so RIMs market share is dropping. I agree with the previous poster that they should have made access to Exchange free. Android and iOS trumped them big time in that area.

Re:I don't know

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes, as opposed to hipster douches who play stupid games all day and therefore "know" so much about technology! What does that even mean, to "know" about technology? These things are toys. Tell me where your food and water come from, tell me what you know about real technology.

Re:I don't know

[Anonymous Coward]

So touchscreen = forward looking technology?
Thats an Apple Fanboy delusion...

I much rather prefer the BB qwerty keyboard to tapping on a screen.

Re:I don't know

[jon3k]

I have a storm2 (before that an original storm1) and it's the biggest piece of shit ever. and everything you said is wrong, the battery life is awful compared to my old blackberrys (ive had 6510, 7510, 7520, 8830, etc) and the call quality is the worst of any phone I've ever used in my life. It's a complete joke. i've got an iphone4 on the way that i'm going to demo until they activate 4g in my area and I plan on switching to an htc thunderbolt. with any luck this will be the last blackberry i ever have to use.

Re:I don't know

[TheJodster]

The "in" thing in business circles is to be up on technology right now. Carrying an iPhone or an Android phone says "I am tech savvy and know how to use my time efficiently." I agree that the Blackberry is very "business like" but the trend is toward cloud computer, bring your own device projects, and being flexible in integrating the latest technology. If RIM doesn't get with the program, they will most certainly go the way of the Palm Treo.

Re:I don't know

[TheJodster]

cloud computing... not cloud computer. Stupid fat fingies!

Re:I don't know

[broggyr]

No, because it isn't just a cellphone, it's a BlackBerry®!

Re:I don't know

[CSG_SurferDude]

App store? HA! I'm moving to an Android (don't know which yet) just because all the apps are over there, and NOTHING GOOD is on my Blackberry (Google sky, for instance)

Re:I don't know

[zubiaur]

The way of the palm treo... such a wonderful robust phone, I would still take one instead of a bb, the downside is that the browsers for palm os suck.

Re:I don't know

[kevinmenzel]

Fine, maybe the touchscreen blackberries aren't great. The bold - still great. I have friends with iPhone 4s who are planning on moving to blackberries because of how bad they feel the iPhone 4 is as a phone.

Bad news for RIM Employees

[Antarius]

In already uncertain economic times, this is terrible news for RIM employees and their families.

I propose we make some sort of action to make RIM Jobs safe!

Re:Bad news for RIM Employees

[19thNervousBreakdown]

Perhaps it's time for them to accept that producing your own phone OS is just too much work for a small player, and load their BlackBerry software suite on Windows Mobile.

If they managed to become BBW, they would have a truly impressive amount of weight to throw around.

Re:Bad news for RIM Employees

[vakuona]

The problem isn't that it is too much work. They can easily cover their costs for that. The problem is market are notoriously fickle, and producing your own OS is risky - differentiation can be a blessing or a curse. If Palm could afford to o so, then so could Blackberry.

Re:Bad news for RIM Employees

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not so sure about that, I have heard that a lot of RIM Jobs are pretty crappy.

Re:Bad news for RIM Employees

[bobzieruncle]

Amen. Or, they'll have to put up with executives complaining that they got stuck with a DingleBerry. :p

Re:Bad news for RIM Employees

[Joe Jay Bee]

Netcraft confirms that RIM.jobs is perfectly safe!

Re:Bad news for RIM Employees

[Antarius]

=o

You just saw the line and kept on crossing it!

I guess you could say it was in... Bad taste.

Re:Bad news for RIM Employees

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a massive untapped market in floatation device smartphones; Blackberry could service motorboating demographic.

Re:Bad news for RIM Employees

[mario_grgic]

Well played, you got both "rim job" and "(Steve ) Jobs safe" there :D.

Re:Bad news for RIM Employees

[Anonymous Coward]

How long, exactly, were you holding that joke for?

Re:Bad news for RIM Employees

[Paul1969]

I propose we make some sort of action to make RIM Jobs safe!

A nice soapy enema beforehand, that should do it.

Even if not they should be fine

[Sycraft-fu]

Reason is the US government loves Blackberries. Seriously, it is like the one and only smartphone they use. There are a number of reasons for that, not the least of which being BB takes security very seriously and they are all FIPS certified and all that jazz.

So while they might shrink if their consumer market gets gobbled up, unless the government ditches them they should be fine.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[Anonymous Coward]

People said the same thing about pagers.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[Anonymous Coward]

And there are still companies selling them.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[Anonymous Coward]

not the least of which is that the government can spy on BB traffic.

So probably a quid pro quo deal there.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[avandesande]

I think if Blackberry wants to survive they should look to the thinkpad model, where the laptop was perceived as a piece of 'corporate warrior' kit. I think their inroads into the consumer market are dead ends....

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[grub]

iPhones are in FIPS evaluation right now. If/when they get it, RIM loses yet another advantage.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[517714]

And the drones who must carry them conceal them, when they once displayed them proudly. Settling into a small niche means you are irrelevant to the vast majority.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[gumbi west]

There is still the whole no physical keyboard on the iPhone thing.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not just the US, the world over is actually starting to take notice of BB. And I am not talking about the business environment, but the serious public. They seem to like the heavily standardized hardware and software.

I am an Andriod and ex-Meego guy, but in supporting a user base of cellphone users... I would vote the full line up of BBs over iPhones or Andriods. The incidents of stupid people doing stupid stuff is.... far less.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Canadian Government too, though that's probably a given considering that it's our only smartphone company...

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[aztracker1]

I have a friend who's work requirement is a phone without a camera... Blackberry has a model that fits the need... I think it's something that should be an option on more phones.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is a complete nonissue. You may rest assured that I can type faster on an iPhone or Android's virtual keyboard than you can on a real one.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[DMUTPeregrine]

So you can get multiple keyboards for all the special characters you might use. Not just programming, the legal section symbol (), etc, are used in government. With a software keyboard you can have extra keys for your most common special characters. You can also get layouts better suited to hunt-and-peck than touch typing. I use Colemak at home, and DSK on my phone. Having all the vowels on one side and all the most common consonants on the other is a great benefit.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[swalve]

I agree. They need to drop the $19 "almost free with a contract" kid's toyphones and stick with making a product meant for productivity.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[Threni]

There's also the `that's hardly caused any problems for iPhone/Android' thing though.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[narcc]

There's always someone who is convinced that virtual keyboards are superior because they can allegedly type faster on one than a physical keyboard. I can only assume that they're the slowest of the hunt-and-peck sort, the speed gained only by virtue of predictive text. Either that, or they're lying.

That said, GP is right, RIM has a huge advantage over the competition with its physical keyboard. Even the most ardent Apple or Android fanboy will readily admit that they have the best keyboard on the market. When it comes to entering text on a phone, you can't beat that iconic Blackberry keyboard.

Add to that RIM's unparalleled messaging and you'll find out why having tons of apps isn't really that important when it comes to using your phone for its intended purpose: communication.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[Anonymous Coward]

For how long though? Palm died. They were hot hot hot with business. I was forced to go Android and I'm very disappointed about it to this day. Android is as good- better than anything else on the market. That still doesn't mean it can adequately handle my business needs. I held out as long as I could. Plam never got out the door a comparable device to the M500 series though nor has anybody else. It is sad. I still wish someone would put out such a thin organizational device with a decent size screen, wifi, and cellular. I don't care about the games or anything else for that matter. Encryption (and I don't mean SSL, but so that the hosting party can't read my data or others who might gain access be it authorities or criminal elements) would be an added bonus though.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[Anonymous Coward]

That's going to change soon.

Re:Even if not they should be fine

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, RIM's demise depends on the Gallup poll... or whether Donald Trump wants to make a sideshow out of it.

Too small?

[onefriedrice]

... and the company too small to compete with huge rivals like Apple and Google.

I don't even know what this means. There are many examples of small companies which are able to compete just fine against bigger (presumably more established) companies. In fact, in this case, RIM was the established company when Apple and Google entered the cellphone business. If RIM has not been able to hold onto their lead, it's not because they're too small. More likely they were just caught standing still.

Troubling Signs, at the Very Least

[strick1226]

The fact that the Playbook tablet was released without a native RIM Email client--and also did not include the official BlackBerry Messenger app--made me stop and reconsider just where Research in Motion finds itself these days.

The news that RIM suddenly just renamed BlackBerry OS 6.1 as OS 7 strikes me as an additional sign of desperate moves, too; the OS isn't a major change, as it's not the desired/anticipated move to QNX base or anything.

I used BB's for years, and appreciated them for their excellent email support at the time. The truth is, though, once I had a taste of the Android platform, my days with RIM were over. The nearly-perfect Google data sync and number of applications are big advantages but, for my wife and I, it really came down to the fact that the browser didn't lock up the whole damned phone when a website became unresponsive.

Perhaps they can pull themselves together here--it's not an impossibility--and they're still in much better shape than Microsoft in regards to the smartphone market.

Re:Troubling Signs, at the Very Least

[Rich0]

Yup, RIM was competitive back when the competition was a feature phone with WAP support.

Now only inertia keeps them around. No company would invest in the platform at this point unless the ROI was really quick. Once everybody migrates to either iOS or Android RIM's sales will plummet.

Re:Troubling Signs, at the Very Least

[pr0t0]

Your last line reminds me of something I've wondered for a couple of years now. Why doesn't the company whose server and desktop operating systems and software often found in the enterprise, team up with the company whose handsets are often found in the enterprise? I mean in the wake of iOS and Android's success, I don't see the MS/Nokia deal being enough of a defense...at least not in the US anyway.

BUT, I think a MS/RIM partnership would be HUGE. RIM's security and notification system, MS software and network integration; it'd be a big win for enterprise. I could see many businesses feeling comfortable putting their mobile eggs in that basket. I'm not even a real fan of either company, but I would feel like the mobility needs for my enterprise would have a secure road map for development, infrastructure, and support.

Re:Troubling Signs, at the Very Least

[MarkRose]

Considering RIM's complete lack of Linux support, it's basically that way already.

Re:Troubling Signs, at the Very Least

[Yo Grark]

Good hardware, crappy software.

Can't tell you how many times my blackberry went flying from the holder when I got out of the car, took off my coat etc. Still survived, never a crack.

Still, first chance I got to switch to Iphone I took it, Know why? 10 min to download/test a french translation program. Iphone? under a minute.

Since moving, I'm reminded of the functionality I had back when I had a Jornada. Now gimme a sylus iphone and I'll start drinking the MAC kool-aid. :)

Yo Grark

Eh..

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

The golden boys of Wall St. seem to have a very limited attention span for boring commodity producers who aren't continually heaping up the growth or delivering larger profits every quarter. It is unsurprising that they would turn on RIM rather sharply: RIM has, after all, fallen from being The phone of the Serious Set to being a smart-ish phone that lags behind Android and the successor to the sidekick among impecunious text-messagers. Party is over, dudes. Margins are set to be less exciting from here on in.

However, there is a large difference between having your share price plummet and "collapsing". RIM has consistently had, and will likely continue to have, the ability to deliver phones that squeeze reasonable performance out of hardware that is practically Nokia-esque in its distance from the leading edge. This means that RIM can afford to make their handsets cheap. Unlike other cheap handset makers, however, they have a relatively well regarded platform in terms of security and integration with enterprise email systems. Their aggressive pre-crunching of data before it goes over the airwaves(and the fact that their web browser blows goats through capillary tubing) also means that carriers are often pretty willing to make RIM data plans incrementally cheaper than those for smarter phones whose appetite for data reflects their PC heritage.

Given those two sets of facts, I would very much agree that RIM's ability to command exciting margins in the future is in the tank. Apple, among the mainstream, and high end androids, among the techies, have the premium niche sewn up for now. MS and HP's positions are currently unenviable; but both are fresher and more dynamic than RIM. The cheap seats will, increasingly, be dominated by semi-KIRFs running stock android pumped out by the assorted Pacific rim OEMs who used to be the anonymous servitors of brands you've heard of. However, given those two sets of facts, I would also argue that RIM should be able to embed itself fairly solidly in its niche, and hang on for a fair length of time. The market for boring business email phones is not exactly small, and RIM has by far the most mature offering in that area.

Re:Eh..

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree with your point about charging by the carriers because of data crunching.
you say the word BES with most of them, and you're thrown into a business plan, for 15 more a month.
for a device that in general doesn't, and maybe can't consume the amount of data most modern phones with a teen attached to it can...
yet they pay the lower 30 plan, while the business users get hosed....
think is another reason people are abandoning BB.
I had a storm some time back...though it was decent though buggy...and had to learn about firmware updates cause they never really fixed all the bugs and newer OS that fixed more of them, eventually stopped getting released.
I've moved to an android, that has enterprise connectivity and wouldn't look back.
it's like night and day, and paying anything extra or even the same amount for a substandard device with less capapbilities isn't exactly an attractive option....
to be fair though...I didn't switch because I laid hands upon an android, and frankly I can't stand Iphones...
RIM lost me when I held on to the storm 1, skipped the 2 cause I didn't want an incremental update, and they basically never released the storm 3..and their outlook just didn't seem like there was a plan forward....
so I looked elsewhere, and qutie frankly am happy I did.

Re:Eh..

[AbRASiON]

Handsets cheap?
Handsets cheap?
Wow, well I guess pricing is different in the states then. They sure aren't cheap in Australia.

Nokia too - body-slammed by Apple and Google

[Anonymous Coward]

Nokia is looking at a 800 million Eur drop in revenue in a *single quarter* (Q1->Q2 2011) as the world continues to transition to smartphones dominated by Apple's iPhone and Google Android based phones.

http://www.minyanville.com/dailyfeed/2011/04/08/nokias-outlook-looks-pretty-grim/

Time to trademark the "DroidBerry"

[bogaboga]

Sooner or later, RIM will have to ditch BlackBerry for DroidBerry.

Re:Time to trademark the "DroidBerry"

[Anonymous Coward]

They'd better trademark "DingleBerry" as well. oh wait..

Re:Time to trademark the "DroidBerry"

[iluvcapra]

I remember when Palm started selling Windows Mobile Treos. In that case it just didn't work, they weren't playing to their strengths. RIMM never struck me as a great handset manufacturer, it's not like their form factor is irreproduceable or awesome, their stuff is plasticky, the buttons average, and their touchscreen tech was never great, the only thing that really sets them apart are their services. You switch that out and you're gutting the whole operation.

Re:Time to trademark the "DroidBerry"

[Anonymous Coward]

"Those who don't play with that idea, must be playing with their ding-a-berry"

fictional 'representation' no longer available

[Anonymous Coward]

the chosen ones, minions & deities appear to have cast us adrift without so much as a modified forecast. the same old cold wet blanket 'treatment'?

Heard it before..

[pablo_max]

They said the same about Motorola. They are still around.

Re:Heard it before..

[wsxyz]

Not for long...

Re:Heard it before..

[vakuona]

But not as the same force they were before. Motorola used to be the clear no 2 in the mobile space.

Re:Heard it before..

[getNewNickName]

Motorola sells more than just phones.

Re:Heard it before..

[Karlt1]

They said the same about Motorola. They are still around.

http://www.forbes.com/2011/04/29/mobile-earnings-after-the-bell-motorola-mobility-holdings-research-in-motion-marketnewsvideo.html

Motorola Mobility posted first-quarter results after the close of trading late Thursday, with a net loss of $81 million, or 27 cents per share, compared to a wider loss of $212 million, or 72 cents per share, last year.

Yeah well, my Blackberry is not working!

[skywatcher2501]

http://youtu.be/kAG39jKi0lI

Wouldn't be surprised

[neiras]

Several years back I worked on some software for the Blackberry (pre-Pearl). Over the past couple of months I've written software for the Playbook as part of their runup to release. The experience was just as shoddy both times. Just getting started on a project is an exercise in intuition and quite the struggle. Tooling is spread across multiple archives; some of it is/was windows-only; documentation is poor or misleading.

I remember my former CEO standing in my office nearly 7 years ago with myself and a colleague, saying "Hey, I have [some senior RIM guy] on the line... Anything you want to say to him?" Both myself and my colleague looked at each other, then said "Tell him RIM treats developers like crap. We need better tools."

Not the most intelligent thing to say, I guess, but it was a casual conversation and we were both pretty frustrated. Of course, the RIM guy had no response.

RIM's attitude towards developers only works in an environment where they are the only game in town. They aren't anymore, and their enterprise customers' resistance to change is the only reason they haven't already crashed and burned.

Re:Wouldn't be surprised

[inglorion_on_the_net]

I remember my former CEO standing in my office nearly 7 years ago with myself and a colleague, saying "Hey, I have [some senior RIM guy] on the line... Anything you want to say to him?" Both myself and my colleague looked at each other, then said "Tell him RIM treats developers like crap. We need better tools."

Not the most intelligent thing to say, I guess, but it was a casual conversation and we were both pretty frustrated. Of course, the RIM guy had no response.

Had I been the RIM guy, I would have taken action. If the first thing two people can think of when asked to comment on your product is "it's crap and we need something better", then something is very seriously wrong. You also don't often get told this. It's a golden opportunity to work with these people and improve things for everyone.

Re:Wouldn't be surprised

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree with your comments about poor developer support. I was developing a game for Blackberry devices a while back and when I upgraded my Windows dev machine to Windows 7 the IDE and stupid BB plugins all broke. I was told by BB support that Windows 7 was not supported. This was many months after Windows 7 had been released. I dumped the Blackberry game idea and jumped over the the iOS dev platform. Support for Android and iOS is so much superior compared to BB.

Re:Wouldn't be surprised

[iluvcapra]

Had I been the RIM guy, I would have taken action. If the first thing two people can think of when asked to comment on your product is "it's crap and we need something better", then something is very seriously wrong.

They never saw the developer tools as a product, it was an aspect of support, and if the tools were crap is didn't particularly matter, since this had about zero effect on the price they could demand for BESs, handsets and service. Apple and Google go to pains to product-ize their developer tools, even though they're free for the most part, and regarding 3rd party developers as customers, making sure they have documentation, a network of support, and a way to get paid (!) is a big part of their strategy. I'm not sure RIM ever considered 3rd party developers "customers."

Redundancies?

[Rik Sweeney]

I imagine that if it gets worse they'll start doling out the redundancies and a lot of people will lose their Rim Jobs.

Sorry, that was the best I could do with the time I had.

Re:yo momma

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Barry's mom was white. His dad was black.

I don't see RIM regaining dominance

[jmnugent]

I'm 37, so I don't consider myself "younger generation"... but in most of the places i know, the younger generation coming into the workplace doesn't want Blackberries. BB's are perceived as unstylish and unintuitive. When given a choice between a "free" (company purchased) BlackBerry and spending their own money on Android/iPhone.. almost everyone chooses non-Blackberry. I personally carry 2 phones (Blackberry and iPhone) and I abhor every second using the Blackberry (hate the keyboard, hate the OS, hate the Email client... the browser sucks donkey balls). RIM...much like Microsoft, seems stuck in an old school business mindset.. and that's going to be their undoing.

Fail

[PhreakOfTime]

You fail at option analysis.... badly.

Crappy phones

[m0s3m8n]

IMHO, it was RIMs service that made the company. Once others caught up they had to compete at the hardware level too. They started putting out half-baked hardware and software like the Storm and it's OS (I went through four before giving up). I am now on the 3GS and it has been rock solid for 19 months. Now the Playbook is out the the reviews I have read are like deja vu.

Re:Crappy phones

[WuphonsReach]

I remember the bad press about the Storm, but compared to the Moto Q I had, the Storm2 has been very reliable and useful.

The on-screen keyboard took some getting used to, but the Storm2 "click" when you press the screen makes a huge difference.

Sad for Canada

[Compaqt]

It's nice to give little countries a chance once in a while, right?

RIM was a success story for Canada, a chance to present a world-class Canadian-made product.

Total world assimilation into the RDF seems so ... boring.

Re:Sad for Canada

[i_ate_god]

Nortel
Bombardier
CAE
ATI
Ubisoft

and maple syrup of course.

Yes, no, and maybe.

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Normally when there's an article where the answer is best left, "I don't know." It's usually shit.

However, the author of this article is making a pretty good case that RIM's screwed. Profits are down, marketshare is down, and developers are looking to develop for iOS and Android more than QNX and BB6.

I don't think it's that dire, not yet. The upcoming quarterly results are going to shellack their current stock price even worse and shake off the RIM faithful.

The big question is, what about next quarter? RIM doesn't need to be #1, or #2, or even #5. They just need to be profitable to honestly survive.(This is the maybe.)

The question I have for the BB faithful is whether or not RIM's going to start trimming out it's product tree and offer a more limited lineup of phones and focus on optimizing their OS or if they're going to go do something crazy. I think that the Playbook doesn't need to be a winner in the market, just drive sales for BB6 devices, and BB6 devices aren't bad at any rate. (This is the no.)

OTOH, if they were capable of that, they wouldn't have lost ground share in the corporate world to iOS and Android not to mention share in the consumer market. I've seen friends flee the BB Ecosystem after realizing their device model line of choice isn't getting upgraded. This would be the most likely and really sad big fat yes.

RIM's probably going to take it in the pants, but, they have some outs, let's see if they take them. Even if they pare out some of the more redundant lines, like having 4 or so models of the Curve, other BB devices with modern hardware and an optimized OS with better browser should be enticing enough to bring the BB faithful back to the fold. Just, leave Flash for the Playbook.

Dear God I hope not

[Anonymous Coward]

I start my coop there on Monday!

Re:Dear God I hope not

[Anonymous Coward]

You're cheap labor. If they start collapsing, you'll be turning out the lights.

Not what I'm seeing

[neiras]

in most of the places i know, the younger generation coming into the workplace doesn't want Blackberries.

Here's the funny thing. Around here (Western Canada), all the kids get Blackberries. The reason? They use BBM and PIN-to-PIN so that they can afford to send text messages without paying $15/mo for an unlimited SMS plan on top of their voice plans. Plus they get multi-day battery life.

If you get a real smartphone, you're out of the loop. Nobody will text you much, and your friends will hate getting texts from you because you're costing them money. The Blackberry TV ads all focus on BBM and look like beer commercials (19-year-old chicks in bikinis jumping into lakes. Summer. Fun fun fun fun weekend weekend. Friday comes after Thursday before Saturday)

Re:Not what I'm seeing

[Abreu]

Here in Mexico, all the cool kids (upper middle class and up) used to have Blackberry Curves for the same reason... Many still do.

But slowly, the "cool factor" of the iPhone has been eroding this hegemony and WhatsApp is slowly replacing BBM as the gossip medium of choice.

Re:Not what I'm seeing

[Paul1969]

So BlackBerries are popular with teens mainly for cheap texting? I don't see that as particularly good news for RIM's future or bottom line.

Hardly a surprise

[Ian-K]

Over the last year I've been able to use a number of devices on a daily basis, not just play with for a couple of hours in order to have an idea. I'm a software engineer and part of my job is to evaluate mobile devices of various sorts and for various usages.

My latest device is a BlackBerry Curve, which I've had for the last three weeks. Usability-wise, the device is very easy and efficient when it comes to texting and calling but anywhere else the software isn't very usable (in most places I'd say cumbersome) and the platform (running 5.2.0.67 on mine) seems very lacking compared to Android and iOS. The menu structure and navigation could have been a lot better and the phone itself isn't very inviting for app-surfing ("where did GTalk get installed now? It's not under Apps. Ah! Instant Messaging folder. But oh my, MSN messenger and Yahoo tagged along in there... oh joy"). Even within the phone app I've spotted many usability hickups.

If most BBs are similar in terms of usability, it's a no brainer that BB is taking the plunge. I haven't set my paws on a touchscreen BB, so things could be totally different there, can't say.

Previous to that I had a ZTE Blade, which for 160 euros is pretty good in terms of build and (especially) battery life. Plain-vanilla Android 2.1 is still rough on many many edges compared to iOS though. On one hand the phone was very inviting to install apps and use them, on the other hand navigation within SMSs and within the phonebook/phone UI was not exactly streamlined. Not to mention the various usability glitches and feature... mishaps still present (one proxy setting for ALL connections, anyone?).

Before the Blade I had a number of Nokias.... which I won't even bother mentioning :| Hopefully they'll make something usable out of WP7 but I'd love them to have given MeeGo a real shot :(

(and yes, my personal phone is an iPhone. The more hands-on experience I have with other platforms, the more I appreciate iOS and Apple's decisions :) )

Re:Hardly a surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

An Irish technology journalist was given a Blackberry to compare to the iPhone. He never even bothered turning on the Blackberry and just shilled for Apple. Some people do not have to work for a living.

Developer Interest is the Wrong Metric

[Anonymous Coward]

The article spends way too much time talking about how much developer interest exists for BlackBerries.

Most of the die-hard BlackBerry users I know don't give a rat's ass about apps. They use the phone stock, out-of-the-box, and feel that doing otherwise would jeopardize (what they feel are) the BlackBerry's key features: reliability and efficiency.

Re:Developer Interest is the Wrong Metric

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Apps or cuts. RIM needs to focus on one of these to stay profitable.

Better APIs means better apps which bring in new users, cuts will allow them to find their niche an stay there. Either way. It needs to move.

I interviewed at RIM in 2008

[Anonymous Coward]

Although it seemed to be the place to be at the time, there were troubling signs.

One of these was that the only qualification that they seemed to think was important was Java. Never mind that the position was for BES server development, not phone development. Never mind any other experience, including OO. Never mind that Java is such a simple language that any experience programmer can pick it up in a matter of days, if not hours.

Another was that they didn't seem to thing that there would be any significant competition from iPhone or Android.

I'm glad now that I didn't get that gig.

Finally.

[Anonymous Coward]

The market place should stomp-out companies that practice trash engineering.

Anybody heard of QNX?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing but a wall street scam to instill fear into shareholders...drive the stock down, buy it low, and sell when RIMs volatile stock shoots up after RIM unleashes the power of QNX.

Re:yo momma

[Anonymous Coward]

I gotcha. Whoaa blackberry.

RIM's future is dim

[Renderer of Evil]

I'm not really sure what they could do at this point to turn the ship around.

Much like Microsoft they sat on their ass for the last 5 years. I think it's too late for them, as it was the case with Nokia. At least you know that Nokia has a foothold in the consumer market with some smartphones, a ton of burners and a fairly strong brand.

Blackberry is synonymous with corporate and boring. It's a glorified pager for rapidly-declining business segment. There is virtually no enthusiasm in the platform and mainstream consumers don't even think of Blackberries as smartphones.

Instead of fixing the godawful BlackberryOS and wooing developers they go and create a 7-inch picture frame without any compelling features. Then they get offended after every tech blog ridicules the product.

In my opinion, RIM will continue to decline until it becomes a manufacturer like General Dynamics with products like Sectera Edge (the one Obama uses). Niche products for niche markets. The money is in the mainstream, consumer segment.

Re:RIM's future is dim

[narcc]

Instead of fixing the godawful BlackberryOS and wooing developers they go and create a 7-inch picture frame without any compelling features.

Except that "7-inch picture frame" is running QNX, not BB OS, and is loaded with compelling features. Have you taken a serious look at it? Not only that, it's also incredibly intuitive and makes iOS look outdated. Oh, and they HAVE been wooing developers -- where have you been all year?

As for BB OS, OS 6 is excellent -- It even gives you a much better user experience than iOS. Even the horrid old browser that everyone is ranting about is fantastic OS6 -- fast and modern.

When QNX hits BB phones in 2012, things will get even better. Of course, we don't need to wait that long, the upcoming line of phones for this year is really exciting and innovative. There really isn't anything on the market to compete with the new Bold Touch -- which is sure to turn heads.

As for BB being "synonymous with corporate and boring", you may want to take a look at how they're doing with the 15-24 demographic. Things are not as you see them.

How the fuck did the above get modded "Insightful"

[Anonymous Coward]

http://us.blackberry.com/apps-software/business/server/express/

BES is free now to the extent most organisations too cheap to pay for device management will require. Full BES is still there for those who want more than the basics.

security security security

[Anonymous Coward]

Until one of their competitors starts to take security seriously (iPhone is laughably easy to compromise, and Android's little better, at-rest encryption is a joke, and no S/MIME or PGP email encryption support) Blackberry will always have a place in real business

Re:security security security

[Lumpy]

Really? please point me to ONE site that shows how I can laughably easy read someones email to and from their iPhone. Because it's a no brainer for RIM now. simply whine at them and they give you access to a server to read all the emails and messages. Theirs is laughably easy.

Re:security security security

[Anonymous Coward]

it takes 5-10 minutes of physical access (if that) to hack an iPhone and take its entire contents (email, passwords stored in the keychain, location history).

Haha, yea, every one of those governments had de facto access to the traffic from ALL OTHER PHONES. Blackberry, they couldn't just intercept on a whim, so they had to bully them into allowing it. And even then, just encrypt your email with PGP or SMIME (which, last i checked, your precious iPhone STILL can't do) and them reading it is worthless.

Basically, if they have to bully RIM into giving them access to read your stuff in transit, that means they can ALREADY read it on the other devices

Swing and a miss, n00b

Re:security security security

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize that the reason they only ask RIM for this is that all the other phones have been fully accessible to them for a long time?

Re:security security security

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice try as you exclude ONE small piece of information....

Only if the iphone does not have an access pin set. if someone sets an access pin, the contents are encrypted just like a blackberry.

And you most certainly are the n00b or cant you read the low UID the OP has.

Let's also forget that a blackberry has the EXACT SAME vulnerability. oh wait that would poke holes in your snowman. Not a strawman, your example is outdated and melting badly based on how iOS 3.x worked and not how iOS 4.x works, it's a lame snowman.

Got a better outdated info troll to try?

Downward spiral, but not death (yet)

[HikingStick]

I believe this will be the start of a downward spiral for RIM. The one thing they do have going for them is a large existing user base with investments in hardward (BESs) and processes/procedures/documentation. While I believe their overall market share will continue to shrink, they'll manage to hold on for a while, perhaps giving them one more shot at getting back in the game.

Thus, I predict a descent and plateau of up to three years. If they cannot get back into the game by that point (and providing they do not experience other factors that could hasten their decline), then I expect we'll be saying farewell to RIM (at least as far as the BlackBerry goes).

It started when...

[Lumpy]

They rolled over and gave the keys to everyone's kingdom to whatever whiny monarch or head of state that wanted it. It instantly destroyed their credibility as to the "security" of the data..

Honestly if they told the king of Saudia Arabia to stuff it up his rear the would have had a LOT of instant credibility to the business world. Instead they rolled over and said , "here this is how you read everyones emails, can we do anything else for you?"

Re:It started when...

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't HAVE "the keys to everyone's kingdom". That's why most of those "whiny monarchs" are now trying to ban BES, much to the annoyance of any respectable businesses in those countries.

*Whoosh*

[Anonymous Coward]

...and there it went, over your head.

Re:*Whoosh*

[Paul1969]

He's clearly not a "chubby chaser."

Would've stuck with BB if it weren't for 2 things

[Qbertino]

I would've stuck with a BB if it weren't for two things:

1) I could only use my BB flatrate with an extra push data option that added to my allready steep premium for a HSDPA/UMTS data flatrate. This sucks. They should've offered a lesser security option for push email or a switch-off option all together so people who aren't corporate users could use their BBs as any other smartphone user. They didn't and instead had carriers buy the full BB server package and pass the price on to their customers, naturally. Thus making the BB a less-than-optimal option for private opinion-leading 'pro-sumer' mobile customers. Bad marketing move, imho.

2) BBs Browser sucks. End of story. I don't expect magic from a low-power Java Micro device, but the BB browser is 14 years behind. They should've licenced Opera Mini, made it their prime BB browser and be done with it.

However, the BBs have a tone of upsides which i've come to like and seriously miss on my brand new android device:
The BBs, especially the line with the S2 batteries (current cheapo curve models for instance), had a lot going for them. Keyboards being one thing. Typing on a touchscreen is a serious PITA compared to the keyboard on my BB 8130, despite the Desire HD being like twice the size and weight. I actually had to buy a capacitive rubbery stylus sort of thing to be able to type at acceptable speeds with an acceptable error rate. Definitely a step backwards compared to the BB.

BBs batteries last for ages. You can go an entire workweek on a single charge, and if that's not enough you can swap batteries without any hassle, as the battery compartments on the BBs are built to be opened frequently, other than those cheap plastic covers on many of the android devices. The BBs are also the only devices with seperate battery chargers as a regular periferal option. Something that AFAIK all other hardware vendors have been laking ever since. Which I can't understand and is totally beyond me.

If the two things mentioned above had been fixed I would've stuck with the Blackberry line for my smartphone/pda needs going forward. I don't need no super-big screen if it is used well, and I'll give a portion of the screen for a usable keyboard any time. I suspect it's the same with a solid share of smartphone users. ... There's your BB market right there.
I've just switched to an HTC Desire HD Android 2.3 device 8 weeks ago. The calendar is kinda so-so, not as good as the BBs calendar which ist 5 years older and uses a screen less than half the size. The contacts app on android though just plain *sucks* big time compared to any BB I've ever used.

Bottom line: RIM should focus on improving the user experience on their keyboard driven devices wile keeping the size and the energy consumption as low as ever. Moving to QNX and a C/C++ driven userspace would enable that easyly and still offer enough room for an update to the UI experience. The market is large enough for people who like keyboards, long battery runtimes and universal smartphones that cost 200$ or less. Leave the 450$+ space to the touchdevice crows that likes to charge every 8 hours and lug 1Ghz Snapdragon computers around.

My 2 cents.

Well, gee

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess if Blogger Chris Nerney says so, it must be so.

open source prevails

[munky99999]

rim going the way of encarta. everytime open source pulls ahead of closed source. closed source disappears.

Re:open source prevails

[Paul1969]

Except for Apple.

One trick pony

[ivoras]

RIM was a "one-trick-pony" company in a world where people needed the functionalities they now get from "ordinary" smartphones but which the telcos and phone manufacturers refused to provide. If iPhone and Android didn't happend when they did, I would probably own a Blackberry now simply because nothing else did Internet and e-mail decently, but they tried to milk that platform without innovating for far too long. They may or may not be in trouble right now but in 2 years - who would want to buy a new Blackberry?

It's easy to be prophetic after the battle but imagine if RIM made the first Android phones instead of HTC - they would be unstoppable now.

Re:Would've stuck with BB if it weren't for 2 thin

[Octorian]

Um, they fixed the browser in OS 6. It doesn't suck anymore.

Palmberry!

[argStyopa]

Blackberry, meet Palm. Palm, could you perhaps slide over on the curb there and make a space for BB to sit down too?

Let's try out some nicknames for the demise...

[Anonymous Coward]

NetWareberry
Netscapeberry
WindowsMobileBerry
PalmBerry
Phone For Creepy 55 Year Old White Guys Berry

Pfft! What About Windows Phone 7?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would choose a BlackBerry before touching or even standing in the same room as a Windows Phone.

I don't think they're dead yet, but what do I know? I'm just a lowly consumer...

Death Spiral? No

[wisnoskij]

Sure they might have to cut back a little or at least slow their growth, but they are still blackberry the classiest smart phone out their.

Re:Death Spiral? No

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure they might have to cut back a little or at least slow their growth, but they are still blackberry the classiest smart phone out their.

Out their what?

re: whoosh

[mevets]

The joke was a bit subtle - google rim 900 or inter@ctive pager.

RIM was a pager company, that made fancy email pagers back when cell phones were about the size of a brick. Later they integrated the pager into a phone - the blackberry.

The smartphone market today...

[Anonymous Coward]

... is like the early 1980s in the PC market. Remember when Apple was a niche player? Remember before Dell existed?

The global smartphone market is still in early days. People replace phones every few years. RIM is showing signs that they understand their problems and are making strategic moves to address them (QNX, Playbook, buying app startups, Android app support). These moves are admittedly works-in-progress, not yet yielding full potential, but it is way too early for reasonable people to talk of a "death spiral." The company is capable of very effective business execution: they grew from essentially nothing to $20B/yr in about a decade, have $10B in cash. There is plenty of reason to see product, business and investor upside with the market currently valuing the company at only $25B.

more to RIM then just the phones

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize that rim does not only have phones right part of what makes them so secure is their bbi the infrastructure is what gives bbm its ability to work regardless of sms. Then theres the matter of security on the device and over the network again its where they excel. i doubt they are in any real trouble outside of speculation. Untill someone else comes up with as tight security features as rim has on their devices companies who look to remain secure will stay put

damn

[Jyunga]

All those years on my hands and knees hoping to get myself a RIM job.

BlackBerry: the Wang of Smartphones

[Anonymous Coward]

Fundamentally, RIM has made their money by selling mobile email terminals. Nobody ever bought them because they had great voice quality or a kick-ass web browser. If the Torch had come out in 2005 or the Playbook in 2009, maybe things would be different but RIM is still focused on extending the PC paradigm while Google and Apple are fighting over the real ecosystem that matters for Computing 3.0, aka Mobile Computing and its associated developer ecosystems.

Just like the old Wang word processors that were all over the enterprise before PC software like Lotus 1-2-3 and Word Perfect made the word processing appliance uneccesary and extraneous, RIM's BlackBerry has always been an email appliance first and foremost. Eventually, someone will capture enough of their look and feel on an Android or iPhone app (much like MultiMate did on the PC) to get the last few stragglers safely on board and the ride will finally be over for them.

Re:Would've stuck with BB if it weren't for 2 thin

[sitkill]

Um, they fixed the browser in OS 6. It doesn't suck anymore.

Yeah, the blackberry browser in OS6 is fantastic. I find myself using it more frequently then my ipad browser at times...

Re:yo momma

[thetoadwarrior]

Most likely he was referencing the slang term for a women that puts out for crack.

It's been obvious for a while

[Dynamoo]

It's been obvious for a while that RIM were heading to a dead end.. I wrote an article about it in 2009 and really it is all coming true.

QNX offered them a way out of the dead end they found themselves in.. but the Playbook isn't really finished (like the original BlackBerry Storm) and it needs more work.

On a personal note, I have a BlackBerry Pearl 3G for corporate use. It's a bag of crap. My Android phone is much more usable and flexible.. the ONLY advantage that BlackBerry still have is for corporate users who install BES servers to support the things. For SoHo users, BlackBerries are completely pointless.

I am SICK of administering BES

[Anonymous Coward]

Compared to running android or iphone running blackberries with BES is such a pain in the arse.

RIM's doco is almost never 100% correct, the installation is too labour intensive, having all the data go through a central and easily wiretappable point is a security issue - like a couple of years ago with the big RIM outage because an intelligence agency had hacked their production servers and when they applied a bit level patch it broke the hacked version.

RIM needs to leverage off activesync before I'd even consider advising one of my clients to use blackberries instead of iphone or android.

Again because BB goes for government

[Sycraft-fu]

Most facilities that do classified type research are like that. No cameras on phones. BB caters to that. You can also see it in terms of app permission and encryption. You have very granular control over what apps can do and if you want you can have the whole phone encrypted with strong crypto and so on.

It is all shit most users really don't care about, but matters to government workers and contractors, hence BB's huge market there. Now of course they've got an entrenchment factor in that because they are big there they stay big there and so on.

Re:Again because BB goes for government

[Bert64]

How does that whole device encryption work, does it force you to enter the key on power up?

Re:Again because BB goes for government

[CrackerJackz]

There are several different options (all enforceable from the BES server, some are end user selectable depending on applied device policy)

These range from (in level of paranoia)

Simple password (device backups are in plain text)
Wipe after n-number of failed passwords (default 10 tries)
Encrypt device (requires the above two options, and requires password on powerup and USB connection / file access mode)
Wipe on power loss. (the "I hate my helpdesk staff" option!) you pull the battery, or let the charge go to zero ... the device will wipe on power up
Wipe on n-number of hours with no communication with BES server (another option with limited appeal, but useful in some cases I guess)

And of course the ever popular remote Nuke option from the BES :)

Really?

[CEPi]

RIM needs to put it's Research In Motion.

What's really happening

[gravyface]

A friend of a mine recently left RIM. He was high-up/involved enough to know that RIM's losing all their big accounts because a) nobody's buying Blackberries on their own; everyone's buying an iPhone or an Android phone b) executives know this, so it's cheaper for them to have their staff buy the phone they want, and expense a percentage of their data/voice plans to the company instead.
I will say that from a stability/security/durability perspective, you can't beat Blackberries: being able to remotely brick a phone, knowing that their phones have been built with security in mind, and having personally dropped various Blackberries I've owned down flights of stairs, backed over it with my car, and stepped on it, only to have cracked the screen once, is proof of this, IMO.

nothing special

[underpressure21]

As a BB user for over a year I can say with absolute certainty that there is nothing special about using a BB.

Beginning yes... end game? up to them

[__aazsst3756]

There are severe signs they are headed the wrong way. The good news is they still have tons of cash flow and resources. It is really up to them if they can turn around their software platform to compete in a modern iOS and Android market. Switching to Android is not a good option for long term profits either. Looking at their management structure I don't think they have it in them, but it is too early to place bets.

It's the ridiculous data plan, that's an issue

[AbRASiON]

Having only learnt how BlackBerries work in the past 18 months, as a user of normal 3G internet handset data and phones for about the same amount of time, the whole RIM / BB experience feels clunky from a design standpoint, it feels like something which was designed many years ago, to get around limitations of the internet and 3G networks at the time - possibly the actual case in fact.. Regardless, times have changed

A BB data plan is $50 a month here, before you've made a single phone call. Yes it's 'unlimited data' but considering the handsets suck for youtube and browsing, I'd bet 95% of our users use less than 100mbytes a month.

I'm in a govt office in Australia and we can also pay 22$ for 600mb of "regular normal" 3G data for other phones. I don't see why these robust but limited handsets need this archaic restriction to have a 'special' data plan.
As BB's work on a per unique device basis, how hard is it to establish a secure connection with the RIM servers as part of the core operating system? Some kind of automatic VPN client which connects to RIM over TRADITIONAL 3g data traffic securely, as default when the phone boots?

The unique and proprietary data plan, is frankly - fucking expensive. Yes it 'just works' but it's a silly and backwards restriction, we can't swap out to any old 3G SIM when doing phone testing or setting things up, it has to be that proprietary one.

As a PHONE they are great, good sound quality, little to no drop outs, fantastic battery life. They are also great for the calendar and email functionality and security, these aspects are definitely well catered for - but EVERYTHING else the world has moved on to, not so much. You can citrix in to the office now with an Android or iphone / ipad, you've got larger, higher quality screens, better cameras, 'cooler looking' phones, a much better selection of applications on ios and the android marketplace.
The BB is not a good 'internet toy', it's a good business device - but in a time when execs and managers are having their phone provided to them by work and no one wants to carry 2 phones, then the BB is that 'dumpy old phone' that people have to carry, there is no prestige.
(Yes I realise the majority of this paragraph is superficial but that's what people are)

RIM need to adapt, the 9800 Torch is at least a start in the right direction but so much more is needed.

One last thing, slightly off topic.
Back to the draconian requirement for a BB data plan, I have a 9000 as my secondary phone WITHOUT a BB data plan. IT's ridiculous and stupid the quantity of applications coded by RIM or 3'rd party developers following the guidelines where the application simply doesn't WORK on wifi OR 3G data.
I'm talking about apps which have NOTHING to do with RIM at all but that restriction to only use TCP traffic over .blackberry data connections (facebook is a good example) how fucking ridiculous! It's not going through RIM, it's just going to a normal, everyday internet site, yet it simply is hard coded not to work. Incredibly short sighted and frustrating. To me, internet / 3g / data / any TCP connection is a TCP connection, restricting that is just 'doing it wrong'
(See also the official gmail application, no wifi support? whut!)

Re:It's the ridiculous data plan, that's an issue

[MikeUW]

Back to the draconian requirement for a BB data plan, I have a 9000 as my secondary phone WITHOUT a BB data plan. IT's ridiculous and stupid the quantity of applications coded by RIM or 3'rd party developers following the guidelines where the application simply doesn't WORK on wifi OR 3G data.
I'm talking about apps which have NOTHING to do with RIM at all but that restriction to only use TCP traffic over .blackberry data connections (facebook is a good example) how fucking ridiculous! It's not going through RIM, it's just going to a normal, everyday internet site, yet it simply is hard coded not to work. Incredibly short sighted and frustrating. To me, internet / 3g / data / any TCP connection is a TCP connection, restricting that is just 'doing it wrong'
(See also the official gmail application, no wifi support? whut!)

I feel exactly the way you do - I became the owner of a BB recently, with the expectation that I could get a basic pre-paid phone sim, and do everything else data-related over WiFi. Well...you clearly already know just how disappointing that turned out to be. For me, this is the real problem with BBs - if you want to get regular consumers (and keep them), don't treat them like they're stupid. When I'm told the 'Facebook' or 'Gmail' apps don't work because I don't have a data plan (but I do have a WiFi connection), I feel like RIM's just trying to screw me into paying for what's already available for free through any conventional Internet platform. From what I've been told, this is not the case with the Playbook - but if I ever get one, I'll be scrutinizing it very carefully in-store before taking one home.

Its my phone not rims

[Anonymous Coward]

When your contract is up you cant even download apps for wifi use.
Fuck this 9700 bold more like 9700 bull.

Wont ever touch another.

Oh, please

[Paul1969]

I have heard that bullshit explanation before. It just does not hold water.
My prediction: RIM will cease to exist as an independent company before 2015.

Re:Oh, please

[narcc]

I have heard that bullshit explanation before. It just does not hold water.

Which is why they sold twice as many tablets on launch day than they expected...

My prediction: RIM will cease to exist as an independent company before 2015.

Yeah, that massive growth they've had quarter after quarter is going to wipe them out!

Canadian hip hop?

[Paul1969]

Jeez, that must be right up there with Australian polka bands and Zimbabwean klezmer!

Step clear of Android?

[Paul1969]

Didn't one of RIM's co-CEO's make a big deal recently about the PlayBook being able to run Android apps? That sure doesn't sound like staying "clear of Android" to me.
I agree that it is a very bad strategic move for RIM.

Re:Would've stuck with BB if it weren't for 2 thin

[Anonymous Coward]

See THIS is RIM's biggest problem, there's too many morons out there who parrot "BBs Browser sucks" that they once read somewhere, without actually noticing that RIM bought Torch, so these days, "BBs Browser" is more ACID-compliant than (desktop) FireFox and Opera (never mind IE obviously), and faster than the iPhone or Android browsers. Anyone who says ""BBs Browser sucks" is probably still living in 2008, but the BlackBerry actually isn't.

windows phone 7

[fuliginous]

They won't die they'll adopt Win P 7 and be saved just like Nokia with their share price whizzing back into the dizzy heights.

Oh hand on Nokia are doomed aren't they?

In Latin America it's different.

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps in the U.S.... But in several countries in Latin America it is the most popular smartphone. (Guatemala, Panama, El Salvador, Venezuela). iPhones and Android plans here simply lack the unlimited [Blackberry] mesenger service.

It is something happen inside RIM

[bmservice]

I think RIM should pay more attention on Asia and other developing country, There still should be great volumn for their traditional models.

Re:security security security.. through obscurity

[Bert64]

Turn a blackberry on and what does it do, boot up on its own and connect to the network... Same as an iphone or android does.
What this means is that the details necessary to access the network and the keys to any encryption being used on the device are stored... ON THE DEVICE.

At-rest encryption really is a joke, on all devices. The only difference between the three platforms is that android and ios are far better understood, which is a combination of them being based on existing well understood platforms, and having good developer tools/documentation.

Read the comments by the pwn2own contestant who compromised a blackberry device... http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/pwn2own-2011-blackberry-falls-to-webkit-browser-attack/8401
he basically says that the blackberry is *less* secure than android or ios, and the only reason it appears otherwise is because there is far less publicly available information about how the devices work.