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FAA Wants Your Opinion On Commercial Space Rules
coondoggie writes "If you have an opinion about how you think the commercial space flight world should be regulated, the FAA wants to hear from you. On Thursday, May 26, 2011 at the DoubleTree by Hilton Hotel Cocoa Beach Oceanfront in Florida it will hold a public hearing where the FAA says it wants to gather information about how to define what it calls a regulatory framework for orbital human spaceflight."
Only commercial space flight necessary: Ayahuasca (DMT trip)
Will the gropings be before or after we put on our spacesuits?
No exploding
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
The US FAA has no jurisdiction over space.
They can collect comments and input till they turn blue.
They still have no juris-my-diction.
Sorry, FAA. Also, stop adding controllers to unused towers. Add controllers to BUSY towers.
E
The Space Precautionary Act.
And they need to delay the damn hearing 4 weeks, until there will be, I dunno, *one million plus* people on that coast, for the last Shuttle launch?
Eeediots.
In other words: this is going to be an experimental field for years, and the rules should be 100% on the side of the principle of assumption of risk: you go up there at your own risk, except in cases of reckless negligence on part of the carrier.
How about they don't regulate it to death. Spaceflight will be a dangerous undertaking for quite some time. If they try to regulate away all the danger they will make it impossible for any advancement to take place.
(car analogy)If the first cars buit were required to have all the safety features we find on modern cars, we would all still be riding horses.(/car analogy)
If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
Disagree. I'm happy with "No exploding unless you've got enough insurance to clean up whatever the exploded bits land on", and would have no problem compromising on "No exploding over populated areas."
But as for the appropriate level of safety the FAA should target with its regulations, all I want as a prospective passenger is the same level of safety you get when you do your first tandem skydive. Everyone signs a waiver that says they realize they might not come back alive, but the company has a pretty strong incentive to make sure everybody comes back safely, and the experienced jumper, to whom the n00bs are strapped, has a very strong incentive to bring both of you back safely.
If the spacecraft's pilot thinks it's safe enough to fly, then I'll fly with him.
So long as we don't damage anything or anyone in their path, it's nobody's business but ours whether we come back high-fiving each other saying "that was awesome!", or as the first snowflake of the season.
Regulate awareness in those going to space so they can be aware of potential safety issue and dangers. Then they decide for themselves if it is worth it.
so how many people will have to die before for some safety rules are in place?
3007.
Back in the real world, pushing rules that expect 99.99999% safety would simply kill the industry in America and hand space travel over to the Chinese or some other country which is happy for people to make their own decision about whether they think a flight is safe. All that's really required is some basic standard that companies have to meet to avoid punitive lawsuits when someone does die.
Never honk off the people at the top of the gravity well
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
As many as there are that are willing to take the risk to do so...
Rule #3
US administering body shall behave like morons on if/who/where can go into space, so that other nations can find the right place in pecking order and people around the world have and additional reason to hate you
every bit at uncomfortable, invasive, uncaring and rude as present airline travel, then i say it isnt safe and the terrorists have clearly won.
Good people go to bed earlier.
The same rules for civilian and commercial aviation should apply to spaceflight, everything is going to have to be IFR of course, but thats the framework they should work from.
Simply require all flights be fully insured (including liability for fallout and orbital debris) and let the insurance industry handle the rules.
If the spacecraft's pilot thinks it's safe enough to fly, then I'll fly with him.
Doubtless the passengers on Continental Connection Flight 3407 thought the same thing.
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
How many safety rules do you need to ensure people don't die?
People die every day in bathtubs, in cars, on bicycles, and a wide variety of other ways considered "safe". Hell, a number of people just drop dead every day across the globe for no apparent reason.
As long as the individual can gauge their risk and their activity has a low probability of killing someone has not chosen to participate, who cares?
This post comes with a double-your-money-back guarantee!
Any offense taken to this post is at your sole discretion.
Killing business before it even starts. The US is probably the most unfriendly country in the world to start a business in. Then you wonder why there's no growth.
Blatant falsehood. We're the third best country to start a business in.
If you can keep a permanent residence on a celestial body you own a 10km radius around the pressurized areas.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
What you take up with you, you must bring back with you.
Please, for the love of something, no TSA.
Killing business before it even starts. The US is probably the most unfriendly country in the world to start a business in. Then you wonder why there's no growth.
Blatant falsehood. We're the third best country to start a business in.
Facts don't matter to trolls! Just sunlight and bridges.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
You're right, rules and regulations kill jobs! That MUST be why Somalia, the bastion of unregulated business freedom, is kicking our ass!
Have you ever seen the rules in a lot of the EU? Actually I hear that many places in Africa are worse.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
When you can get airlines to get something like an 85% accurate on-time arrival and departure schedule, planes aren't overbooked constantly, and flight staff don't act like Bride of Frankenstein, then it may be time to worry about commercial space travel. Do we really need to be focusing attention on something that hasn't even happened yet when we have enough problems in the atmosphere currently? Somebody ought to be fired for this.
The real truth is that regulation is necessary to keep companies from harming people. Nearly everyone would agree that it is a good thing that food handlers must wash their hands after going to the bathroom, or medical doctors must be board certified to practice medicine. Does anyone really think it's a bad idea to prohibit the construction of nuclear power plants on top of fault lines.
Regulation generally only becomes an issue when corporations get big enough, that they can then start "buying" regulations that block competition.
Corporation fight against regulations because it bars them from taking risks with other peoples health, lives, welfare, etc., in pursuit of higher profits. It's a lot more profitable to generate electricity using unfiltered dirty coal. In general when the risk pays off, the corporations get to keep the profits, and when there is a catastrophe, they get to keep the high profits taking during the good years, and someone else gets to pay the bill.
It's only been 3 years since the financial collapse brought on by bank deregulation. Did the banks pick up the bill for that? No, the taxpayers did.
They have an administration that is perfectly suited to assume the role of manned and unmanned spaceflight regulation. They have years of experience in the issues affiliated with spaceflight and a tremendous body of knowledge.
NASA should get out of human spaceflight and become the FAA of commercial manned spaceflight.
X-ray scanning needs to be at least ten times more radiating to get you used to the radiation exposure you'll face in space. Also passengers need to be pat down WHILE being X-rayed. You should also arrive at the spaceport 2 weeks prior to departure. And your luggage should end up on the moon.
More explosions.
Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
Doubtless the passengers on Continental Connection Flight 3407 thought the same thing.
To be fair, I suspect it will be some time before spaceships are being flown by a pilot who doesn't know how to recover from a stall.
Sad, You seem to think that lack of regulation will equal growth. (read the article on Chinese suicides in the iPhone iPad plant) and certainly the over regulation of derivatives did make the financial markets safe for everyone. That is one of the primary, and necesarry roles of government, to set down the ground rule so things don't go boom in the night, like the markets or oil wells or rockets in space.
Actually, E-7 is fairly reasonable. E-9 would kill it. My preference is E-6 for anything under 10 passengers, and E-7 for anything over until it becomes as routine and cheap as airline travel became in the 80's.
Others have said "no exploding" - I disagree. You should be allowed to explode, provided you do it over your own land or water or don't harm anyone else's property without their consent. Exploding is cool.
Liability for anything that hits the earth or another space ship or aircraft or ocean-going vessel. You hit it, you bought it + damages. I wouldn't hit a oil tanker. 20 yrs later, when parts come back to earth, there needs to be a liability fund ready to pay out regardless of where the junk hits - Outback or NYC.
No space junk allowed. If you leave anything in orbit, you need to pay someone else to get it. Even a bolt.
No toxic emissions before, during or after launch. No Hydrazine!
If you kill someone, $5M payout minimum for each instance or 100x the price paid for the flight, whichever is more.
I'm fine if space companies want to use risky methods, provided they are held accountable.
Oh, lastly, company owners are personal liable - no corporate protection. That way, if they make a mistake, they lose everything, not just kill a company. We need a law like that for petroleum drillers, refiners and nuclear power plants too. PERSONAL LIABILITY. There needs to be a very strong desire to not screw this up.
I have anything moderated as ""Funny" set to -6. When you guys mark them "Insightful" you screw up the system.
Knock it off.
I'd say the launch should be able to be performed VFR if the meteorological conditions allow it.
The launch and airspace used could simply be covered by an appropriate NOTAM.
Offer a waiver of IFR flightplan requirement for launches while transitioning from 18000MSL thru FL60 during the launch, or at least provide for a special kind of "pop-up" IFR clearance flight plan during such transitions, and allow non-instrument-rated pilots to legally do that, since weather conditions are most likely going to be exclusively VMC for such launches anyway.
I'd like UN regulation and control of all exploitation of space. If there can't be broad consensus over it should be used commercially, space should just remain unused. We can't afford quarrels over space.
Besides, until the nations of the world can defend themselves against, say, asteroids that may have their trajectories altered or falling space stations, it is also not at all clever to allow any particularly large or particularly maneuverable commercial venues out there.
What if the pilot is a computer named HAL?
to see how they manage to regulate other countries, should they send up space-tourism vehicles. How exactly do you restrict, uh, spacespace? when orbital mechanics dictate that the vehicle can't avoid orbiting over the US?
"I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
No hidden fees or surcharges.
"Sir, Your ticket only covers you up to 100 lbs, each additional pound has charges..." or "Only taking the suitcase up is covered, to take it back there's and additional charge." or "That will be a $100,000 baggage handling fee." How much food is covered under the charges.
Keep yer bumbling, ineffective, red-tape hands out of our spacelanes. Thanks.
"You can't take the sky from me...."
Part of the Second American Revolution!
But an unelected US government bureaucracy doesn't have jurisdiction outside the planet. Sorry.
Send your spendthrift head of state this
I refer to "Destination Moon" a 1950s movie about the first moon launch. The launch is called off because the equivalent to the EPA at the time says that their rocket can't be allowed to launch because it uses dangerous chemicals and poses a hazard. Of course with a rousing entrepreneurial spirit, the launch is done anyway in spite of the regulators that show up to shut them down.
As far as I know, the EPA does in fact have to license launches because of the hazardous materials involved. This can certainly have a severe impact on the exploitation of space and the ability to launch anything.
Many people today feel the government doesn't regulate enough and that agencies like the FAA are simply boosters for aviation first and regulators a distant fifth or sixth. Absolutely, I would say that a "regulation first" agency being in charge of spaceflight would insure that nothing gets launched from the US. Fortunately, China is going to be right there ignoring all sorts of environmental regulations that we would like to force on them.
I would think it would make a lot more sense to launch from Mexico. Suitably lax regulation should be able to be purchased from the Mexican government. I think I would go for an extraterritorial compound that is not subject to any of the laws of Mexico. That shouldn't be too hard to get for a few hundred million or so. Mexico is pretty hard up for cash.
The US can't even regulate airlines and the security measures in a proper manner. Wonder how bad they'll f*** this up?
Egypt was a terrible, terrible place to try and start or expand a business.
Unless of course you were a crony of the Mubaraks, then it was easy.
Is it me, or does there seem to be a rash of government agencies seeking the help of "people online" to do their job?
It's clear that they want us to do the work for them and then get no credit or money for it. Well, I'm not some focus group member and they can figure this out themselves. It's not like the Government listens to the average person any more, as it is.
One fact, is the US will be eclipsed in the near future. As for the FAA rules, you should first master airplanes before dabbling in anything more advanced. Just a nickle worth of free advice. Silly Federals.
"Funny" doesn't give karma. In fact, getting "funny" mods can indirectly hurt your karma, since people who didn't find your post funny might decide to mod it down on the grounds that it doesn't deserve such a high score.
That's why if I have mod points and see a great joke post, I stick to Interesting/Insightful/Informative, to avoid inadvertently punishing the poster.
Keep the TSA the hell away from it.
Considering what it takes to get on a plane bound for, well, Earth, i can only imagine...
On site endoscopy?
I don't know. The pool of unemployed astronauts will probably dry up pretty quick. The competition to provide cheap space flights will put inexorable pressure on firms to reduce costs, and you will see (eventually) poorly maintained rockets/shuttles, and poorly trained pilots flying on little or no sleep.
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
I would like to be able to rent commercial space and convert it to a residence but current code/regulations/zoning laws will not allow me to do so. Sorry? Did I misunderstand something?
http://www.acetonestudio.com
"Funny" doesn't give karma. In fact, getting "funny" mods can indirectly hurt your karma, since people who didn't find your post funny might decide to mod it down on the grounds that it doesn't deserve such a high score.
That's why if I have mod points and see a great joke post, I stick to Interesting/Insightful/Informative, to avoid inadvertently punishing the poster.
Don't do that. Please. Posters who are pushing 'funny' stuff want to be modded funny. We understand the risks. We're brave boys and girls and can handle it.
But it just looks bad when some humorous bit of nonsense is modded +5 Insightful. What happens if somebody just drops in from another board? They're gonna think we're complete idiots.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
No over irradiating nudie scanners, no homeland security, no TSA gropers!
All that's really required is some basic standard that companies have to meet to avoid punitive lawsuits when someone does die.
Yeah. Something like regulations. Or maybe rules. Or a framework. By a governmental agency with appropriate jurisdiction.
Great idea!
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Security? Jesus....Considering what it takes to get on a plane bound for, well, Earth, i can only imagine...
On site endoscopy?
Whether you're a believer or believe it's fiction I'm not familiar with a tradition in which Jesus does those, or any security work for that matter. If you want a high profile security officer, try an ex-wrestler or ex-footballer.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Well...you might be fucked. Good enough for ya?
Minimally, thank you.
Maybe the SEC and the USPTO could take a hint from from the FAA and have public hearings about how we'd like the patent system to work and how we'd like trading things like credit default swaps to be regulated.
There might be a few other administrations, departments, and bureaus that could do the same.
casagenie
Killing business before it even starts. The US is probably the most unfriendly country in the world to start a business in. Then you wonder why there's no growth.
Blatant falsehood. We're the third best country to start a business in.
Facts don't matter to trolls! Just sunlight and bridges.
Obama declared that Bin Laden is dead, DNA is verified, I think this is not a trifling matter.What makes Bin Laden's house exposed,who named the God of flee, what's more,the hidding so concealed? Bush caught him by all means failed to catch him for nearly a decade, however,Obama's army discovered him this year, and quickly kill him.Is it the U.S. satellite positioning system technology to improve this high level? Of course, this is one possiblility.The another reason maybe is betrayal of the Pakistani military,they use security technology or wireless network camera surveillance equipment and have been on their guard to monitor the area,which make Bin Laden dead because of negligence.Then, what security monitoring equipment use by the Pakistani military?People says it is AXIS,other people says it is APEXIS,in one word,one of them,we believe the security product from these two companies,which one is the hero leading to the death of ben laden in the end?Who knows... http://www.globalsources.com/apexis.co
Guangdong province shenzhen rich dark electronic technology Co., LTD
Oh cool, PBF comics is back online. (Yeah, I'm likely really late to that party, I remember when they disappeared something less than 5 years ago...)
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
Don't do that. Please. Posters who are pushing 'funny' stuff want to be modded funny. We understand the risks. We're brave boys and girls and can handle it. But it just looks bad when some humorous bit of nonsense is modded +5 Insightful. What happens if somebody just drops in from another board? They're gonna think we're complete idiots.
Or, accept the fact that there is truth in humor, and sometimes truth is insightful.
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
As per the Outer Space Treaty, the government of each nation is required to regulation the space operations of any entity that via their citizens. If that nation decides to utilize the nations Civil Aviation Authority, that meets the treaty obligation, if the nation decides to create a new authority, that also meets the treaty obligation.
This is like lecturing your seven year old child on safe highway driving practices.
You sank my battleship!
~X~
Killing business before it even starts. The US is probably the most unfriendly country in the world to start a business in. Then you wonder why there's no growth.
Blatant falsehood. We're the third best country to start a business in.
Facts don't matter to trolls! Just sunlight and bridges.
Best. Reply. Ever.
Yeah, space isn't owned by the US, blah, blah, blah. Europe isn't owned by the US either; but European planes flying routes with endpoints in the US still have to comply with FAA regs.
Same deal with space. If it takes off or lands in the US, we should be paying attention to it. This is the government doing its job. Yeah, I know, shocking!
You can't just glue aircraft regulations onto spacecraft either. They have things like rockets, heat shields, parachutes, etc. There are a lot more things to be considered than with an aircraft. There is an old saying, "aviation policy is written in blood". We already have enough blood on spacecraft too. Maybe if you slow down and think about all this, you'll come up with some good ideas. Or, you can just ride your magic Libertarian powered ship with the heat shield that didn't meet spec because there were no specs, with the rocket built by some unpermitted dudes who thought it'd be cool to build rockets. You'll just have to go outside the US to do it.
At a guess, the lifetime flights for these vehicle designs will range from a few dozen to perhaps thousands. I doubt any accident rate beyond 1 in 1,000 (E-3, right?) is possible without a vast number of flights per year. 1 in 10 million failure rate might be possible for a few well tested parts, but not the entire vehicle. Note I'm saying here that it is impossible not impractical.
In comparison, there are something like a hundred thousand commercial airline flights per day resulting in more than 30 million flights per year. I see claims that the US has a 1 in 7 million accident rate per flight (almost E-7). For general aviation, it would be worse. From looking at this site, I get the impression that by flight, general aviation is almost two orders of magnitude worse. So E-5 or so.
Given that, I think E-3 is a reasonable goal for space launch to aim for, but not one likely to be attained in the near future.
Only if you don't happen to be named Dave.
Even my local corrupt-as-all-heck government has announced we have a crapload of rocket fuel in our drinking water.
Even if it didn't come from spaceflight (?) it raises the point.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Plant and support the calculated number of trees to offset a CO2 amount emitted during a launch.
The FAA only has legal authority inside US borders, last I checked the US border ends at 100km so irrespective of this power grab the FAA lacks any form of authority to regulate.
The US EPA is asking coal power plant operators for their opinions on how they should be regulated, and the US Elite Cyber Commando Troopers are placing posts on black hat forums asking for their opinions on new laws concerning identity theft and money laundering.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
no, he never said "E-8." you still have one damage left... or that's your carrier.
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
WHY WHY WHY can't you stop regulating things to death???? I know this is a backdoor method to cut the legs out from under an industry just being born.
On a related note, I just found out that it would cost me $90,000 to get a helicopter rating. That makes me sad.
K, I have been to that motel. The Double Tree down in Cocoa Beach, FL. It's not 5 star or anything but they treat you nice. Fresh baked cookies 24 X 7. They give you some when you check in. As far as space travel goes, Rule #1 in all journeys is still make it come home safely. Rule # 2 is do not eat a big breakfast then jump on a spacecraft heading for zero G.
This aint Daytona and you aint Dale Earnhardt. So stop trying to draft on Interstate 40.
This kind of risk taking really isn't necessary any more with spaceflight, or almost any new mode of transport. In the early days of flying we didn't know much about things like metal fatigue and the kinds of human errors pilots are prone to. Now we do air travel is extremely safe and new aircraft can be designed and tested to the point where there is no need for all passengers to sign waivers.
Space is a harsher environment but if you look at modern human spaceflight it has a good safety record. The Shuttle is old technology now, although modern variants of the 1960s Soyuz design are very safe. For small crews the dangers are within acceptable limits for rocket based access to space.
Commercial passenger services will be using space planes for the most part and they are much less dangerous than rockets anyway. Virgin Galactic isn't even planning to enter orbit, just get up into space for IIRC 12 minutes and then back to earth, so far lower re-entry stresses.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
This reminds me of the basic difference between the way America and Russia developed space technology. America did things methodically with lots theory, design and testing on the ground so that by the time a rocket went up there was hopefully a good chance of it working right. The Russians were more hands on and did much of their testing with test flights. Sure, a lot more rockets blew up and more vehicles failed in orbit, but they also learnt a lot and were able to rapidly improve with much less money and fewer people than the US.
Of course the Russians kept these failures secret but the methodology is sound. They lost more people too but that was due to pressure to beat the US by getting firsts; when they had time available they did enough unmanned test flights to ensure similar levels of safety as the US.
If people in the west, both politicians and commercial companies, were willing to tolerate more failures as long as they learned from them the cost of development could be lowered and the pace increased.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
On more than one occasion, I've modded somebody with an obviously sarcastic post as "interesting" or "insightful" as a sort of meta-joke. Trying to make the moderation itself something funny.
I must have missed it. Would someone please tell me when the entire world agreed to let the United State's Federal Aviation Administration (a body not exactly noted for being terribly proficient at it's OWN job) regulate outer space. Really, I think I would have noticed that treaty....
No space ship equipped with bay doors may be designed in any way that would allow a self aware, slightly deranged, ultra intelligent computer system to control the bay doors.