Slashdot Mirror
FAA Wants Your Opinion On Commercial Space Rules
coondoggie writes "If you have an opinion about how you think the commercial space flight world should be regulated, the FAA wants to hear from you. On Thursday, May 26, 2011 at the DoubleTree by Hilton Hotel Cocoa Beach Oceanfront in Florida it will hold a public hearing where the FAA says it wants to gather information about how to define what it calls a regulatory framework for orbital human spaceflight."
No exploding
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
They want YOUR input on how you can best be molested!
Also, no more backscatter x-rays, they'll just line your chair with carbon paper and conveniently leave off that radiation shielding on the outer hull!
The Space Precautionary Act.
And they need to delay the damn hearing 4 weeks, until there will be, I dunno, *one million plus* people on that coast, for the last Shuttle launch?
Eeediots.
In other words: this is going to be an experimental field for years, and the rules should be 100% on the side of the principle of assumption of risk: you go up there at your own risk, except in cases of reckless negligence on part of the carrier.
How about they don't regulate it to death. Spaceflight will be a dangerous undertaking for quite some time. If they try to regulate away all the danger they will make it impossible for any advancement to take place.
(car analogy)If the first cars buit were required to have all the safety features we find on modern cars, we would all still be riding horses.(/car analogy)
If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
At the moment, no one has jurisdiction. It's a wild-ass frontier up there. However, it is reasonable to assume that the USA's FAA should have some authority over space vehicles taking off and landing in American lands. Furthermore, it is also reasonable to suppose that the FAA will be likely to have some input or influence on what rules are put into place, when the requisite international body is formed for managing orbital and interstellar flights, as I would also expect other flight safety agencies from around the world to have.
Learning about brewing beer, by brewing beer.
Disagree. I'm happy with "No exploding unless you've got enough insurance to clean up whatever the exploded bits land on", and would have no problem compromising on "No exploding over populated areas."
But as for the appropriate level of safety the FAA should target with its regulations, all I want as a prospective passenger is the same level of safety you get when you do your first tandem skydive. Everyone signs a waiver that says they realize they might not come back alive, but the company has a pretty strong incentive to make sure everybody comes back safely, and the experienced jumper, to whom the n00bs are strapped, has a very strong incentive to bring both of you back safely.
If the spacecraft's pilot thinks it's safe enough to fly, then I'll fly with him.
So long as we don't damage anything or anyone in their path, it's nobody's business but ours whether we come back high-fiving each other saying "that was awesome!", or as the first snowflake of the season.
so how many people will have to die before for some safety rules are in place?
3007.
Back in the real world, pushing rules that expect 99.99999% safety would simply kill the industry in America and hand space travel over to the Chinese or some other country which is happy for people to make their own decision about whether they think a flight is safe. All that's really required is some basic standard that companies have to meet to avoid punitive lawsuits when someone does die.
Never honk off the people at the top of the gravity well
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
The hell they don't, the mandate of the FAA is to regulate and oversee all aspects of civil aviation in the U.S. Aviation includes everything from zero to 50 miles up for the US regulators.
As many as there are that are willing to take the risk to do so...
every bit at uncomfortable, invasive, uncaring and rude as present airline travel, then i say it isnt safe and the terrorists have clearly won.
Good people go to bed earlier.
The same rules for civilian and commercial aviation should apply to spaceflight, everything is going to have to be IFR of course, but thats the framework they should work from.
but they have jurisdiction of airspace from 1000 to 50,000 feet. It's kind of hard to get to space without that "first mile". Well I guess you can get there... it's when you get back that you get in trouble.
Simply require all flights be fully insured (including liability for fallout and orbital debris) and let the insurance industry handle the rules.
They know this. The FAA is regulating the legs of the trip through US air space where they have jurisdiction. Launch and re-entry are the main areas of concern.
Also, the FAA folks involved in this, AST (Office of Space Transportation I believe), are trying very hard to facilitate new developments, not regulate it to death. Having well-defined regulations in place now helps prevent ill-concieved and onerous regulations coming in later when congress gets involved. The ones I have met are thoughtful people who are very enthusiastic about the emerging markets in commercial spaceflight.
From everything I hear in the NewSpace community, most of them are quite happy to have the FAA working on this. Its better than NASA or the military taking the lead, and far better than having no regulatory framework.
If the spacecraft's pilot thinks it's safe enough to fly, then I'll fly with him.
Doubtless the passengers on Continental Connection Flight 3407 thought the same thing.
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
How many safety rules do you need to ensure people don't die?
People die every day in bathtubs, in cars, on bicycles, and a wide variety of other ways considered "safe". Hell, a number of people just drop dead every day across the globe for no apparent reason.
As long as the individual can gauge their risk and their activity has a low probability of killing someone has not chosen to participate, who cares?
This post comes with a double-your-money-back guarantee!
Any offense taken to this post is at your sole discretion.
Killing business before it even starts. The US is probably the most unfriendly country in the world to start a business in. Then you wonder why there's no growth.
Blatant falsehood. We're the third best country to start a business in.
The US FAA has no jurisdiction over space.
They have jurisdiction over commercial flights to space that originate in the US, or fly over US airspace (up to an altitude of 50-80k feet I'd guess).
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
If you can keep a permanent residence on a celestial body you own a 10km radius around the pressurized areas.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
yea, if I could find it.
Killing business before it even starts. The US is probably the most unfriendly country in the world to start a business in. Then you wonder why there's no growth.
Blatant falsehood. We're the third best country to start a business in.
Facts don't matter to trolls! Just sunlight and bridges.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
Have you ever seen the rules in a lot of the EU? Actually I hear that many places in Africa are worse.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
They have an administration that is perfectly suited to assume the role of manned and unmanned spaceflight regulation. They have years of experience in the issues affiliated with spaceflight and a tremendous body of knowledge.
NASA should get out of human spaceflight and become the FAA of commercial manned spaceflight.
X-ray scanning needs to be at least ten times more radiating to get you used to the radiation exposure you'll face in space. Also passengers need to be pat down WHILE being X-rayed. You should also arrive at the spaceport 2 weeks prior to departure. And your luggage should end up on the moon.
More explosions.
Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
Doubtless the passengers on Continental Connection Flight 3407 thought the same thing.
To be fair, I suspect it will be some time before spaceships are being flown by a pilot who doesn't know how to recover from a stall.
On a related side note. I remember flying over Kansas one time in the past and the flight service had to stop serving alcholic beverages because Kansas (I'm sure it was Kansas) had passed a law that said no drinking (or maybe just hard liquor that was not sold in a state licensed store). So maybe the FAA will not have juristiction but for sanity there should be some international agreements standards and regulations. Just like you as a land owner has mineral right below, the FAA has juristiction above, certainly above 14k feet where the IFR flight are controlled. Why would you suppose that flights that were just a little higher up should not have regulations to keep them from bumping into each other, ala the air traffic control system, which requires transponders with position information etc so collisions can be avoided. Certainly a plane or a rocket is travelling too fast to visually keep track of other traffic, and at those speeds, the strength of the planes radar would have to be high to see that far ahead, behind, to the side. All that additional radiation would probably fry all the passengers, and wilt the flowers being shipped here from China.
Sad, You seem to think that lack of regulation will equal growth. (read the article on Chinese suicides in the iPhone iPad plant) and certainly the over regulation of derivatives did make the financial markets safe for everyone. That is one of the primary, and necesarry roles of government, to set down the ground rule so things don't go boom in the night, like the markets or oil wells or rockets in space.
Actually, E-7 is fairly reasonable. E-9 would kill it. My preference is E-6 for anything under 10 passengers, and E-7 for anything over until it becomes as routine and cheap as airline travel became in the 80's.
Others have said "no exploding" - I disagree. You should be allowed to explode, provided you do it over your own land or water or don't harm anyone else's property without their consent. Exploding is cool.
Liability for anything that hits the earth or another space ship or aircraft or ocean-going vessel. You hit it, you bought it + damages. I wouldn't hit a oil tanker. 20 yrs later, when parts come back to earth, there needs to be a liability fund ready to pay out regardless of where the junk hits - Outback or NYC.
No space junk allowed. If you leave anything in orbit, you need to pay someone else to get it. Even a bolt.
No toxic emissions before, during or after launch. No Hydrazine!
If you kill someone, $5M payout minimum for each instance or 100x the price paid for the flight, whichever is more.
I'm fine if space companies want to use risky methods, provided they are held accountable.
Oh, lastly, company owners are personal liable - no corporate protection. That way, if they make a mistake, they lose everything, not just kill a company. We need a law like that for petroleum drillers, refiners and nuclear power plants too. PERSONAL LIABILITY. There needs to be a very strong desire to not screw this up.
to see how they manage to regulate other countries, should they send up space-tourism vehicles. How exactly do you restrict, uh, spacespace? when orbital mechanics dictate that the vehicle can't avoid orbiting over the US?
"I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
The US FAA has no jurisdiction over space.
But they have jurisdiction over US aviators going into space. As long as your craft is of US origin, they have some jurisdiction surrounding your plane no matter where it travels outside US airspace
Try here. Let me know how it works out.
Keep yer bumbling, ineffective, red-tape hands out of our spacelanes. Thanks.
"You can't take the sky from me...."
Part of the Second American Revolution!
But an unelected US government bureaucracy doesn't have jurisdiction outside the planet. Sorry.
Send your spendthrift head of state this
Egypt was a terrible, terrible place to try and start or expand a business.
Unless of course you were a crony of the Mubaraks, then it was easy.
Is it me, or does there seem to be a rash of government agencies seeking the help of "people online" to do their job?
It's clear that they want us to do the work for them and then get no credit or money for it. Well, I'm not some focus group member and they can figure this out themselves. It's not like the Government listens to the average person any more, as it is.
Its the United Nations, not the United Solar System.
Space Stations have already fallen, two militaries (US and China) have shown the capability to shoot down satellites and by extension, shoot and hit a space station. I can think of three other nations (Israel, Japan and the Russian Federation) who likely have the same capabilities, but just haven't tried it.
Keep the TSA the hell away from it.
Considering what it takes to get on a plane bound for, well, Earth, i can only imagine...
On site endoscopy?
No keeping us sitting on the launch pad for five hours for no good reason. Take off or let us off till you're ready. Of course they can't even manage that now with planes.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
I don't know. The pool of unemployed astronauts will probably dry up pretty quick. The competition to provide cheap space flights will put inexorable pressure on firms to reduce costs, and you will see (eventually) poorly maintained rockets/shuttles, and poorly trained pilots flying on little or no sleep.
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
I would like to be able to rent commercial space and convert it to a residence but current code/regulations/zoning laws will not allow me to do so. Sorry? Did I misunderstand something?
http://www.acetonestudio.com
All that's really required is some basic standard that companies have to meet to avoid punitive lawsuits when someone does die.
Yeah. Something like regulations. Or maybe rules. Or a framework. By a governmental agency with appropriate jurisdiction.
Great idea!
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Actually the US government has authority and the obligation to regulate any launches that not only occur on US lands, but also launches that occur on non US lands that is operated by a US entity. This is part of the Outer Space Treaty. Now which agency regulates the actual launch, that is a battle that would have to be fought by the different departments within the US government.
Security? Jesus....Considering what it takes to get on a plane bound for, well, Earth, i can only imagine...
On site endoscopy?
Whether you're a believer or believe it's fiction I'm not familiar with a tradition in which Jesus does those, or any security work for that matter. If you want a high profile security officer, try an ex-wrestler or ex-footballer.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Maybe the SEC and the USPTO could take a hint from from the FAA and have public hearings about how we'd like the patent system to work and how we'd like trading things like credit default swaps to be regulated.
There might be a few other administrations, departments, and bureaus that could do the same.
Have you ever actually looked at what the FAA is wanting to do for commercial space operations? Have you ever talked to the people doing it to figure out their goals? The FAA-AST folks and the NewSpace folks in fact get a long quite well, they're even Facebook friends.
Pre-emptive regulation where the industry has a main seat at the table is the best weapon right now against over-regulation later. With the current path, the legal regime under which the companies will operate will be well-known and designed in a way that benefits everyone. If this weren't happening, and an accident were to happen, the 'do something!' crowd would force congress to impose ill-conceived regulations instead. If you're playing a game, you want to know the rules in advance, not have new ones sprung on you after you've started playing.
Regulation is not necessarily bad. Bad regulation is bad. Unfortunately thats the kind we notice most.
My guess is that it would be the responsibility of USAF.
casagenie
Killing business before it even starts. The US is probably the most unfriendly country in the world to start a business in. Then you wonder why there's no growth.
Blatant falsehood. We're the third best country to start a business in.
Facts don't matter to trolls! Just sunlight and bridges.
Obama declared that Bin Laden is dead, DNA is verified, I think this is not a trifling matter.What makes Bin Laden's house exposed,who named the God of flee, what's more,the hidding so concealed? Bush caught him by all means failed to catch him for nearly a decade, however,Obama's army discovered him this year, and quickly kill him.Is it the U.S. satellite positioning system technology to improve this high level? Of course, this is one possiblility.The another reason maybe is betrayal of the Pakistani military,they use security technology or wireless network camera surveillance equipment and have been on their guard to monitor the area,which make Bin Laden dead because of negligence.Then, what security monitoring equipment use by the Pakistani military?People says it is AXIS,other people says it is APEXIS,in one word,one of them,we believe the security product from these two companies,which one is the hero leading to the death of ben laden in the end?Who knows... http://www.globalsources.com/apexis.co
Guangdong province shenzhen rich dark electronic technology Co., LTD
Oh cool, PBF comics is back online. (Yeah, I'm likely really late to that party, I remember when they disappeared something less than 5 years ago...)
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
Don't do that. Please. Posters who are pushing 'funny' stuff want to be modded funny. We understand the risks. We're brave boys and girls and can handle it. But it just looks bad when some humorous bit of nonsense is modded +5 Insightful. What happens if somebody just drops in from another board? They're gonna think we're complete idiots.
Or, accept the fact that there is truth in humor, and sometimes truth is insightful.
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
You sank my battleship!
~X~
Killing business before it even starts. The US is probably the most unfriendly country in the world to start a business in. Then you wonder why there's no growth.
Blatant falsehood. We're the third best country to start a business in.
Facts don't matter to trolls! Just sunlight and bridges.
Best. Reply. Ever.
At a guess, the lifetime flights for these vehicle designs will range from a few dozen to perhaps thousands. I doubt any accident rate beyond 1 in 1,000 (E-3, right?) is possible without a vast number of flights per year. 1 in 10 million failure rate might be possible for a few well tested parts, but not the entire vehicle. Note I'm saying here that it is impossible not impractical.
In comparison, there are something like a hundred thousand commercial airline flights per day resulting in more than 30 million flights per year. I see claims that the US has a 1 in 7 million accident rate per flight (almost E-7). For general aviation, it would be worse. From looking at this site, I get the impression that by flight, general aviation is almost two orders of magnitude worse. So E-5 or so.
Given that, I think E-3 is a reasonable goal for space launch to aim for, but not one likely to be attained in the near future.
Only if you don't happen to be named Dave.
Even my local corrupt-as-all-heck government has announced we have a crapload of rocket fuel in our drinking water.
Even if it didn't come from spaceflight (?) it raises the point.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The FAA only has legal authority inside US borders, last I checked the US border ends at 100km so irrespective of this power grab the FAA lacks any form of authority to regulate.
The US EPA is asking coal power plant operators for their opinions on how they should be regulated, and the US Elite Cyber Commando Troopers are placing posts on black hat forums asking for their opinions on new laws concerning identity theft and money laundering.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
no, he never said "E-8." you still have one damage left... or that's your carrier.
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
WHY WHY WHY can't you stop regulating things to death???? I know this is a backdoor method to cut the legs out from under an industry just being born.
On a related note, I just found out that it would cost me $90,000 to get a helicopter rating. That makes me sad.
K, I have been to that motel. The Double Tree down in Cocoa Beach, FL. It's not 5 star or anything but they treat you nice. Fresh baked cookies 24 X 7. They give you some when you check in. As far as space travel goes, Rule #1 in all journeys is still make it come home safely. Rule # 2 is do not eat a big breakfast then jump on a spacecraft heading for zero G.
This aint Daytona and you aint Dale Earnhardt. So stop trying to draft on Interstate 40.
This kind of risk taking really isn't necessary any more with spaceflight, or almost any new mode of transport. In the early days of flying we didn't know much about things like metal fatigue and the kinds of human errors pilots are prone to. Now we do air travel is extremely safe and new aircraft can be designed and tested to the point where there is no need for all passengers to sign waivers.
Space is a harsher environment but if you look at modern human spaceflight it has a good safety record. The Shuttle is old technology now, although modern variants of the 1960s Soyuz design are very safe. For small crews the dangers are within acceptable limits for rocket based access to space.
Commercial passenger services will be using space planes for the most part and they are much less dangerous than rockets anyway. Virgin Galactic isn't even planning to enter orbit, just get up into space for IIRC 12 minutes and then back to earth, so far lower re-entry stresses.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
This reminds me of the basic difference between the way America and Russia developed space technology. America did things methodically with lots theory, design and testing on the ground so that by the time a rocket went up there was hopefully a good chance of it working right. The Russians were more hands on and did much of their testing with test flights. Sure, a lot more rockets blew up and more vehicles failed in orbit, but they also learnt a lot and were able to rapidly improve with much less money and fewer people than the US.
Of course the Russians kept these failures secret but the methodology is sound. They lost more people too but that was due to pressure to beat the US by getting firsts; when they had time available they did enough unmanned test flights to ensure similar levels of safety as the US.
If people in the west, both politicians and commercial companies, were willing to tolerate more failures as long as they learned from them the cost of development could be lowered and the pace increased.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
The united nations is about avoiding disputes over commercial ventures. The UN should actually be the ones that "own" the solar system, because determining who does in the classic military fashion mankind settled such possible disputes in the past would be a very, very bad idea.
And the only large-ish space station that I know of that even fell even just partially uncontrolled actually hit the ground far from where it was supposed to go (Skylab). The bigger MIR was very carefully de-orbited - still debris hit the ground. You don't want to know what would have happened if someone actually tried to maximize rather than minimize the damage... or what would happen if the same was done with something of the size of ISS.
And really, some of these nations destroying some satellites (which in some cases doesn't even mean "completely shattered") does not at all mean they can deal with a space station or an asteroid with a slightly altered trajectory. Nor will things be fine until all nations can be protected.
Thx, can u recommend a link for which things i would need exactly(foliage vs whole vine Hawaiian vs Peruvian) + preparation of the brew. i Googled around and most are very vague.