Slashdot Mirror


Evolution Battle Brews In Texas

oxide7 writes "In Texas, a battle is brewing over the teaching of evolutionary theory as the Board of Education considers a new set of instructional materials to be used in science classrooms. [Two sections of the new material] deal with the origin of life. Those sections say the 'null hypothesis' is that there had to be some intelligent agency behind the appearance of living things. It is up to the scientists proposing a naturalistic explanation to prove their case."

132 of 916 comments (clear)

  1. sad isn't it ? by cats-paw · · Score: 5, Insightful

    that we have to spend time and effort keeping creationism from being taught as "science" in the
    21st century.

    Do people in this country really understand that the right wing religious nut-cases are out to make this
    country a theocracy ? American taliban indeed.

    --
    Absolute statements are never true
    1. Re:sad isn't it ? by vivian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I went to a religious school which had no problem teaching the theory of evolution in science class AND teaching the Adam and Eve/Genesis thing in religious classes (of course we spend most of our time in religious classes colouring stuff in and generally mucking around, while we go to do experiments and other fun stuff in science lass). Why cant they just do this in Texas?

    2. Re:sad isn't it ? by Tsingi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sad, depressing, relentless. And our education system is constantly under attack.
      Sigh. Maybe we should just give up and welcome the middle ages back. We live in a feudal system anyway.

    3. Re:sad isn't it ? by JWSmythe · · Score: 5, Insightful

          You seem to fail to see the real problem.

          The majority of citizens have taken the word of their respective cults as reality, and fail to recognize anything factual. Factual evidence is passed off as garbage, and ancient fairy tales are the truth. Worse, they don't even cite their own fairy tales properly, and continue to spew more recent urban legends that have been adopted by the cult majority as fact.

          It is an amazingly sad state of affairs, that the majority of the population have become so complacent in following the lies, that they no longer think for themselves.

          I am now a resident of the certifiably most insane nation in the world, which unfortunately also possesses the largest quantity and most dangerous weapons in the world.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    4. Re:sad isn't it ? by WillKemp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's bizarre that the US is trying to fight off the middle ages and loopy religious fundamentalism in Afghanistan, but is so eagerly rushing to it at home!

      Thank [insert name of imaginary friend] we don't have that sort of barking mad fundamenatlism in Australia!

    5. Re:sad isn't it ? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >>We haven't given up, but more than 75% of the population are such cultists.

      Don't confuse fundamentalists (your cultists) with mainstream religions. There's no contradiction between being a Christian and a scientist, though there certainly are problems when fundies try to become scientists.

      Don't confuse cults with religions either - atheist bigotry aside, they're two very different things.

    6. Re:sad isn't it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The sad truth is that most Americans aren't opposed to what the Taliban are doing, but the religion the Taliban represent. Don't believe for a second that given the chance American Christians wouldn't have their own version of sharia.

    7. Re:sad isn't it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The difference between cult and religion lies in the number of followers. Don't forget that Christianity began as a crazy doomsday cult.

    8. Re:sad isn't it ? by SnarfQuest · · Score: 2

      ONE person can fake up a theory that immunizations cause autism in an effort to make himself rich, and thousands will believe him. What makes you think creationism would be any different. People believe whatever they want, even when there is a total lack of evidence or even if the evidence is easily proven to be fraud. They just want someone they can blame, or someone they can sue, as long as they can make it so it isn't their own fault.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    9. Re:sad isn't it ? by houghi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because apparently making up your own mind is not something that many people want.

      And from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution
      In addition, while he was the Vatican's chief astronomer, Fr. George Coyne, issued a statement on 18 November 2005 saying that "Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be. If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science."

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    10. Re:sad isn't it ? by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They can. Religious schools are free to do whatever the fuck they want on their own dime.

      Taking tax money meant for public education and using it to proselytize? No. Absolutely not. Taxes should not be used for religious purposes. Believe what you want, but pay for it yourself and keep it to yourself.

      Teaching Adam and Eve along side of Darwin, implying they're equally credible or even the same subject? No. Absolutely not. That's absurd. Creationism and intelligent design are fundamentally anti-scientific. "The only way to understand any of this is to believe what we tell you" is as far from science as you can get. You may as well teach "intelligent math" in math class and teach kids that 2+2=4, but some people believe that addition is not true, and 2 and 2 will always be 2 and 2, never 4.

      Already most students will never consider the evidence for and against evolution on their own, so for them, evolution is already more faith than science. There are a variety of reasons for that. I sincerely think that teaching science and religion in the same breath will confuse them even further. We'll take a giant step back from being a scientific culture, and a giant step toward ignorance.

    11. Re:sad isn't it ? by MRe_nl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Many American's already live under a Christian Sharia.

       

      --
      "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
    12. Re:sad isn't it ? by Mathinker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > Pretty much any belief in any part of the bible

      I think you are confusing belief with "literal belief" --- the difference is sometimes used as the distinguishing feature between religion and fundamentalist religion. E.g., one Christian when reading creation story believes in it as a parable for the current physical understanding of the Big Bang and its aftermath, while a fundamentalist Christian reads it and believes that the whole deal took 7 days as we know them.

      I have the distinct impression that many of the atheists who attempt to aggressively debunk religion actually have little understanding of what exactly they are debunking, never having done actual research into what the majority of moderately religious people actually believe and how it affects how they behave.

    13. Re:sad isn't it ? by drsmithy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yet the outcome of popular elections (see Bush v Gore, c. 11/2000, et al.) are regularly contested. If 75% of people were 'cultists', as you call those who follow an organized religion (of which are not all zealots), then when it comes to politics, their brainwashed masses would pretty well dictate the political discourse with relative ease. They all drank the same Kool-Aid, right?

      Yes. That's why an atheist being elected as US President would be one of the most noteworthy events in history.

    14. Re:sad isn't it ? by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 2

      If 75% of people were 'cultists', as you call those who follow an organized religion (of which are not all zealots), then when it comes to politics, their brainwashed masses would pretty well dictate the political discourse with relative ease.

      There is more than one cult, so there is no reason to think that all cultists would be told to think the same thing. For example, some are told to help their fellow man while others are told that God helps those who help themselves. That pretty much sums up the spectrum of politics.

    15. Re:sad isn't it ? by JambisJubilee · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Adam and Eve/Genesis creation account does have a place in the classroom. It's called mythology.

    16. Re:sad isn't it ? by sunspot42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have the distinct impression that many of the atheists who attempt to aggressively debunk religion actually have little understanding of what exactly they are debunking, never having done actual research into what the majority of moderately religious people actually believe and how it affects how they behave.

      Oh, please, get off the cross. We need the wood.

      There isn't an atheist in America who hasn't been soaked in Christian idiocy their entire lives - moderate, fundamentalist, Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, the whole whacked out ball 'o wax. We know exactly what you tools believe in. You NEVER SHUT UP ABOUT IT. You even have 24/7 television networks spewing the stupidity 365 days a year.

      Well, I shouldn't say you NEVER shut up about it, because whenever the fundies attempt to do something pig ignorant, like this latest example of stupidity in Texas, the "moderate" Christians who supposedly represent a "majority" go completely silent. In spite of their alleged "majority" status, they seldom if ever seem to be capable of halting the relentless march back to the Dark Ages.

      Funny how that works out.

      The fact that half of you believe in shit which directly contradicts what the other half believes makes it even more ludicrous. And all of it is based on, of course, no evidence what-so-ever. Just the idiot ramblings of some ignorant goat fuckers who lived 5,000 years ago.

      It's like living in an insane asylum. Only without the access to good drugs.

    17. Re:sad isn't it ? by jamesh · · Score: 2

      I find it curious that for all the backwards stuff the Catholic Church does, evolution doesn't seem to bother them in the slightest.

    18. Re:sad isn't it ? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 2, Funny

      >>Doesn't atheist bigotry pisses you off? I mean really! The nerve of those people stepping on religion's territory.

      While you get +1 internets for being the first non-anonymous coward to respond to me (I mean, seriously, people - it doesn't take a lot of courage to post as an atheist on /.), really it's just a show of ignorance when atheists intentionally (or unintentionally) confuse religion and cult, or conflate fundamentalists with mainstream Christians. It's like making a joke about "all those Indian suicide bombers" - not only is it not especially funny, because it misses the mark, it just reveals you don't know the difference between a Hindu and a Muslim.

      Likewise, it's not funny when atheists say that Jesus was a zombie Jew. It just reveals their utter ignorance about the difference between Animate Dead (3rd level) and Resurrection (7th level spell). Although it could arguably be a True Res (9th level) as well, depending on if you think Jesus lost a level or not.

    19. Re:sad isn't it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can't believe people don't get this. Science isn't where you go "we have no fucking clue how _____ happened, so we're going to say God did it", it's "we have no fucking clue how _____ happened, so let's apply the scientific method to this phenomenon and see if we can come up with an explanation for it". The theory of evolution crosses over into biology, paleontology, and many other bona fide scientific fields. Intelligent design challenges you to watch a sunrise and claim with a straight face that some force other than God could have made that possible.

      Whether you're religious or not - intelligent design has no business being in a science classroom.

    20. Re:sad isn't it ? by KDR_11k · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Literal bible interpretation is a protestant thing, to varying degrees among the various groups (the American flavours seem to be the most extreme in this regard). The Catholic church interprets many parts of the Bible as metaphors and they don't consider Genesis to be how it really went down (who was there to write that down anyway?). The Catholic church sees evolution as a valid way for God to create the life on Earth and an omniscient and omnipotent deity could easily make sure the universe forms as it did just by configuring the big bang properly, never mind influencing the destinies of individual parts that may need a little prodding to get right.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    21. Re:sad isn't it ? by biryokumaru · · Score: 2

      Don't confuse cults with religions either - atheist bigotry aside, they're two very different things.

      Isn't it a staple of freshman English courses at university to ask what this difference is, to discover it's only in the cultural perception, or connotation, and there is no fundamental distinction? Or did we just do that because I didn't go to school in Texas?

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    22. Re:sad isn't it ? by turbidostato · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "I find it curious that for all the backwards stuff the Catholic Church does, evolution doesn't seem to bother them in the slightest."

      You shouldn't. A basis of all (thocratic) religions is that it explains a lot of things but demonstrates nothing.

      Now, a "clever" religion (and the Catholic one has evolutioned itself in this regard as a mean to survive -as a civil corporation) can explain everything while still demostrating nothing.

      Some examples:
      * Some religion guru comes with the idea that his god woke up some day and decided that his almigtyness would create life, intelligence and everything; so the guru writes the Genesis and so be it.
      * After a lot of years the modern gurus of that religion see that they are losing ground because science made obvious the Genesis can't be nothing but a child's tale. No problem.

      What do evidences support? Well, it seems that there were a big bang. What can't science demonstrate, at least today? How it was that the big bang happened. No problem: there were a big bang and God made it happen.

      What do evidences support? Well, it seems that living beings evolution by means of selective pressure on random mutations. No problem: living beings evolution by means of pressure on mutations but there are not really random but directed by God almightiness so they only seem to be random but working in accord to His plan.

      What can't science demonstrate? That there's a soul that survives after death. No problem: that's God's realm: there *is* an indetectable soul that lifes eternally.

      You see, if you are intelligent enough and work on a hypothese unfalsable and that doesn't demonstrate anything you can rework your model without resigning to your main tenets all you want.

    23. Re:sad isn't it ? by turbidostato · · Score: 2

      "one Christian when reading creation story believes in it as a parable"

      Still, when one Christian reads that Christ is the very Son of God and God Himself, because God is One and Three, he things that's absolutly -albeit misteriously, true.

      What makes him read a phrase in the Bible stated as a fact and say to himself "that's a parable" or "that's the reveled truth"?

      Quite convenient deciding 'post facto' what your corpus of believes will be but that's rationalizing your prejudices, not religion.

    24. Re:sad isn't it ? by Jesus_666 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't know why people see religion class as something problematic. In Germany we have it and it's not like it's about indoctrination. It's about things like how different religions work and how to better understand them or about ethics in the context of what $SCRIPTURE says. You know, things that are actually useful to know if you want to understand where some of the older concepts and values in out society came from.

      If you're not of one of the faiths the school offers courses for (or you don't want to deal with what the documents say is your religion) you get what amounts to comparative theology class in that you compare how various faiths deal with the things covered in regular religion class. Again a useful thing to know since you're going to deal with people of various faiths later on even if you're areligious.

      Does that mean the steeple has replaced the classroom? No, it just means that we can apply sociology to the Bible. It also means that there's little reason to mention any religious stance on anything in other classes. So it always astounds me that American schools apparently have no space for any studies regarding religion, leading both to idiot lawmakers trying to sneak in the Bible as a textbook elsewhere (hello, Intelligent Design) and to morons who don't even know how Christianity, Judaism and Islam are connected.

      Yes, there is Sunday school. But I doubt that it's attended by most people, that each major faith has an equally-popular alternative and that Sunday school will teach comparative theology.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    25. Re:sad isn't it ? by jhoegl · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually Vouchers can not be used at religious schools.

    26. Re:sad isn't it ? by jhoegl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreed.

      If you notice, when people talk about atheism, they always bring up this question of morals. As if someone couldnt understand them without religion.
      Yet what percentage of people in prison are religious, what percentage of mass murderers were/are religious, and what percentage of serial killers are religious?
      True, playing the percentage in a mostly religious world is a safe bet, but the point here is that morals arent given automatically with or without religion.

    27. Re:sad isn't it ? by KDR_11k · · Score: 4, Informative

      My father loves to complain how the US has no standard for what it takes to be a priest. The Lutheran and Catholic church both have schools that one has to have gone through to be qualified for priesthood so the preachers actually know what the religion is about and how to present it properly, the TV preachers in the US are free to make up any nonsense they want without being stripped of their title.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    28. Re:sad isn't it ? by jhoegl · · Score: 2

      There is a problem with religion in that all of it is based on magic and fairy dust.
      The ultimate defense I guess is that "Faith" created it and it just "is".
      Even though science has proven many points of Evolutionary theory, and even the day it gets proven beyond doubt, people will still chose what they want
      This is why no one gives a shit about the "faith" opinion... because they will never change their mind and continue living in ignorant bliss, cowing behind their religion whenever it suits them, and not having to think about the reason we are human.

    29. Re:sad isn't it ? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 2

      >>Pray tell: what *is* the difference between a religion and a cult?

      When I studied it in some social science class in college, it was defined generally by having three traits: 1) a cult of personality built around a charismatic leader, 2) encouraging isolation from former friends and family, 3) generally engaging in some intrusive form of control over the members social lives and/or thoughts.

      As with most things in social sciences, it's not a rigid definition (the Roman Catholic Church engages in confession, for example), but most mainstream churches fail to meet the definition of cults, because members will easily move from one church to another within the same denomination, they are not required to cut ties with former friends and family, and the churches don't engage in excessive control.

      By contrast, the CCC (Campus Crusade for Christ) is cult-ish, as it doesn't have the charismatic leader, per se, but it does force its members to drop non-CCC friends, and engage in heavy control over the members social lives and thoughts. You have to go to weekly meetings and confess having lustful thoughts about the opposite sex, for example, which results in a public shaming. If you don't do it, they accuse you of lying. Catch-22, and all that.

      Jim Jones (of Jonestown drinking-the-koolaid fame) absolutely ran a cult. Cult of personality, moved his congregation to South America, and got them all to kill themselves. Fun Fact: Diane Feinstein thought his approach was the wave of the future for religions, since he was a big communist and multiculturalist. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple and http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=41263)

      Likewise the Heaven's Gate guys were a cult for the same reasons.

    30. Re:sad isn't it ? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because it would only be fair to teach all religions.

      Why? There certainly isn't time for this in school, any more than there's time to teach all branches of mathematics in maths classes. At my school, religious studies classes covered:

      • Christianity, including the doctrinal differences between catholicism and protestantism, and some specific case studies in different current forms of christianity.
      • Judaism
      • Islam
      • Hinduism
      • Sikhism
      • Buddhism

      None of them were taught as the truth, they were all examined in their social and historical context (e.g. looking at the various creation myths, comparing them to the culture in which they emerged). We also covered Norse, Greek, and Roman religious beliefs in other subjects at school.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    31. Re:sad isn't it ? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      What makes him read a phrase in the Bible stated as a fact and say to himself "that's a parable" or "that's the reveled truth"?

      If he's a Catholic, he asks a priest (who asks his superiors, until you get to the Pope, who asks God and then tells everyone what he thinks God said). If he's a protestant, he makes his own mind up, and forms a new flavour of Christianity if he disagrees too strongly with the existing ones...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    32. Re:sad isn't it ? by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ya wanna know why I hate fundies (shut up, of course you do!) it is because my grandfather and several of my relatives shed and spilled blood so I can say "I think your religion is full of shit, and it teaches several bigoted and evil things" and I can even write that on a nice poster and stand outside your church every Sunday holding my little sign and that's just fine. Fundies want to take away our rights to do such things, or to believe or not as we choose.

      And frankly if you are an Xtian and don't stand up and say that is bullshit every time a fundie opens their mouth then you are no damned better than the Muslims who sit there with their mouth shut while the fundies preach hatred and suicide bombing. what I do with my body, teach my kids, and believe or not should be none of your damned business and I sure as hell shouldn't have to pay for you to stuff that shit down the throats of my kids. Believe me I have seen fundie Xtians up close, I had to raise my kids with home schooling because I live in the middle of Baptist land and I have one kid that's Catholic and the other Gay.

      So for all the supposed "love and peace" of the Xtians they sure do go out of their way to find things to hate. These same damned churches trying to push this shit or force women who've been raped to bear the rapist's child (which BTW I have NEVER seen any of these fundies offer to take the kids, have you?) are the same ones that back in the 60s said blacks shouldn't have equal rights because of the bible (something about a black mark? It has been too long since I read the BS).

      So why don't you do us all a favor and go tell the fundies to STFU in your own community if you supposedly don't support them. Because for all the talk of tolerance and peace the supposedly "moderate" Xtains sure do seem to STFU when the fundies are spouting hate. Pretty fucking sad when I have to raise my kids at home because the Catholic was having to spend his afternoons stomping the shit out of Xtains who were taught by their parents that bashing someone's head in because they were gay is just a nice way to spend an afternoon. Personally if I had my way I'd round up every damned bible and chunk the fuckers in the fire along with the Tora and Koran. In a couple of generations the world WOULD be a better place, no doubt in my mind at all.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    33. Re:sad isn't it ? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 2

      >>And frankly if you are an Xtian and don't stand up and say that is bullshit every time a fundie opens their mouth`

      It's "Xian", not Xtian. X stands for Christ, based on the Greek Chi symbol. Perhaps you're a Xtina fan? (Oh, you know you are!)

      I do actually speak out against fundies every time I get the chance, and argue with them relentlessly in real life, or in fundie breeding grounds like The Blaze. I can't stand stupidity in any form, and so I argue against their banning of any alcohol (wait, didn't Jesus make wine as his first miracle) as much as I did here on /. when an atheist tried to convince me the Christians were responsible for the conquest and destruction of the Celtic Empire (Christians were apparently time traveling mercenaries that joined the Roman legions before Christ was born).

      >>So for all the supposed "love and peace" of the Xtians they sure do go out of their way to find things to hate.

      Agreed. I think that a lot of Christians these days have fallen victim to the same problems that Jesus spoke out against back in the day. They're so focused on not listening to Christian rock (it's evil) or drinking (it's evil) or having sex (also evil, unless it's in the dark with your wife) that they are completely missing the Main Point that Jesus was trying to convey, which was about loving God and loving one another.

      That said, if you've never seen a fundie offer to adopt a kid that would be aborted, then you haven't spent much time with them. I've known Christians to take in homeless people from off the streets and feed them and give them temporary shelter for a month or three. I've seen many more acts of grace from Christians than atheists (and I'd say the majority of my friends are atheists - I live in California, not Texas).

      >>Personally if I had my way I'd round up every damned bible and chunk the fuckers in the fire along with the Tora and Koran. In a couple of generations the world WOULD be a better place, no doubt in my mind at all.

      The French marched all their priests into the Seine and proceeded to build a Republic based on modern atheist human rights. You tell me how well that worked out for them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror).

    34. Re:sad isn't it ? by bunratty · · Score: 3, Informative

      A survey has shown that atheists and agnostics know the most about religion. Atheists also tend to be more intelligent and obey the golden rule. This flies in the face of the idea behind the wedge strategy, that materialism leads to a decline in society.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    35. Re:sad isn't it ? by bunratty · · Score: 2

      Yes, the old God of the gaps idea. The trouble is, God keeps getting smaller and smaller as there are fewer gaps to put him in. I find it hilarious to watch religious people put God in the gaps, then get mad at scientists for invading their turf as they fill in the gaps. Talk about a losing strategy!

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    36. Re:sad isn't it ? by vlm · · Score: 2

      I find it curious that for all the backwards stuff the Catholic Church does, evolution doesn't seem to bother them in the slightest.

      I have a LOT of relatives on the inside of the C.C. so I have some insight here.

      The argument provided is perfectly valid for almost any religion. Only in the backwoods of TX would it be interpreted as exclusively biblical vs reality. If you never travel outside the TX back woods where 99% of the citizen population is evangelical christian, and 99% of the illegal alien population is Catholic, then its easy to warp your mind into binary thinking where the whole world is either christian or anti-christian, so all arguments must be phrased in those terms.

      Now the C.C. is basically officially uni cultural, at least with respect to religion (plus or minus liberation theology, etc). Anyway there are Catholic churches pretty much everywhere in the world, and priests travel all around. I was married by a dude from some little country in Europe thats smaller than the average TX county. Easter mass was presided over by a genuine South American priest. Anyway a "cosmopolitan" church is not going to fall for an argument that is a giveaway to a competitor in India or Africa or pretty much anywhere that is not 99% hicksville.

      The C.C. may believe is some pretty weird things, but that does not exclude being extremely sophisticated. In a similar way, backwoods hicks can be open minded and educated, but that does not exclude the vast majority from being extremely unsophisticated.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    37. Re:sad isn't it ? by SigmundFloyd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Atheists are between 8% and 16% of the US population, but just 0.2% of the prison population.

      Tell that to people who question atheists' morality.

      --
      Knowledge is power; knowledge shared is power lost.
    38. Re:sad isn't it ? by moonbender · · Score: 3, Informative

      WTF, please don't bring up the religion classes in Germany as a good example. They're not. It's all kinds of messed up. The public is paying the teachers' salaries, while the churches get to pick them and pretty much tell them what to teach. A catholic teacher recently got fired because he is gay -- from a public school!

      If anything, schools should teach comparative religious studies embedded in a class on ethics and philosophy and maybe even logic. No reason to segregate kids if you're doing that. If you want your kids to have a religious education and go to Sunday school, that's your business, but don't do it in school time and do it with your own money. And if your kid doesn't want to go to Sunday school, well, I guess they've made their choice?!

      --
      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
    39. Re:sad isn't it ? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Yes, but in Germany the class is clearly labeled. It's called religious education and it's an easy to understand sign that this hour can be used to do useful stuff like copying math homework or debug your program. It's like TV where shows like Wheel of Fortune or other similar ones have to display a "Dauerwerbesendung" (permanent ad show) sign during their stay so you know that you're being fed bull.

      It's a bit of a difference to go into a class and know you're going to hear about a religious text or going to one and thinking you hear about reality only to be fed some religious bull, don't you think?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    40. Re:sad isn't it ? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Go and teach faith, but call a spade a spade.

      I have zero problem with a religious teacher being sent from some religious group to tell kids how the world came into existence according to their theology. But tell the kids that this is going to be a religious class and what they're going to hear has its root in some religion's holy book. Don't mix religion and science, "religious science" ranks up there with Microsoft Works and military intelligence as the oxymorons of the ages.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    41. Re:sad isn't it ? by Kjella · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It is true that a central part of protestantism was "Sola scriptura", that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. This was a rebellion against the power of the Pope and the Holy See to interpret and issue doctrine as very many of the practices that gave the Church massive power and wealth were not founded in the Bible, particularly the selling of indulgences. Also that salvation comes through faith alone, while Catholicism required rites performed by the priest - without the Church, there was no salvation. A central part of Protestantism was that all would read the Bible in their local language, back then only the priests and other highborn that learned Latin would even be able to read it. How could a Catholic have a literal interpretation of something he couldn't read? The priests told you the road to salvation and you followed.

      To me it sounds like you are placing all of the Protestant groups on the "more literal" side of things. That is really not true at all, we are just far more diverse. That comes from that there is no one supreme commander of the Protestant churches, while if you're Catholic then you either yield to the Pope's authority or you're not a Catholic. And to be honest, the US seems to have far more issues with Catholic beliefs such as regarding contraception and abortion because the Pope is opposed to it while most protestant churches - at least around here - have accepted it. I think I can speak for most of Northern Europe when I say we consider the Bible to be just as much allegories as the Catholic church - perhaps even more so - and that teaching evolution here is not an issue at all. As far as I understand the main issue in the US are Baptists, which make up most of the Bible Belt. But they are something like 100 out of 800 million protestants.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    42. Re:sad isn't it ? by digitig · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yet what percentage of people in prison are religious, what percentage of mass murderers were/are religious, and what percentage of serial killers are religious?

      A more useful figure would be "what percentage of people in prison were religious before they went to prison". The numbers might say more about the parole system than about religion.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    43. Re:sad isn't it ? by HungryHobo · · Score: 2

      I grew up in a country without separation of church and state: Catholicism used to be written into our constitution and confirmation/communion were organized through the schools though since they were public schools and freedom of religion is also written into our constitution none of the religious stuff was mandatory.

      I went to a school which had religion classes which pretty much were like the GP, we covered a little on most of the major religions and somehow the teachers had zero difficulty separating science class from religion class.

      basic sex education was covered in school, our biology books included evolution without any disclaimers or ID crap and human biology was covered without faltering and I never heard of any parents making a fuss about it.

      But then I'm from a european country.
      The insane evangelical stuff and rejection of science seems to be a very american problem.

    44. Re:sad isn't it ? by yarnosh · · Score: 2

      Catholic school, right? Let's just say that most of the pressure to get creationism in schools isn't coming from Catholics. It is coming from evangelical, protestant, and often fundamentalist Christians. They really do believe that creationism belongs in science classes. The only question for them is whether to include evolution at all!

    45. Re:sad isn't it ? by sgt+scrub · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why cant they just do this in Texas

      Because in Texas religious belief is part of the "social government" and economy. People that go to church are not just "church goers", they are members of a church with all of its hierarchy included in their socioeconomic lives. The church member's status in the church is related to the respect and job opportunities they are given by other members. People not of the church have no predetermined respect for them. In order to gather respect, and underlings, people have to be made into members. This is perpetuated like a pyramid scheme. That isn't to say there isn't a benefit to this. Once a person becomes a member they are granted certain opportunities, job, job status (manager vs. grunt), etc... depending on where they fall in the hierarchy of the church. For example, a Deacon in a church is not likely to be working fast food. Children taught things like evolution, free thinking, black/gray/white vs. black/white are not as easily made into members.

      --
      Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
    46. Re:sad isn't it ? by Muros · · Score: 2

      Thats a study of religion. Most religious people don't want their beliefs scrutinized, they want more people to agree with them.

    47. Re:sad isn't it ? by Muros · · Score: 2

      I would like to see you explain evolution to humans 4000 years ago when they have no idea about genes.

      You might be surprised. The folks back then are the people who selectively bred our livestock, larger varieties of fruits like apples, pears, strawberries, grains like oats, barley, wheat, rice, breeds of dogs suited to different purposes..... Are you saying they might find the idea of inherited traits difficult to grasp?

    48. Re:sad isn't it ? by JWSmythe · · Score: 2

          I wonder about that constantly. Yes, I know your numbers are at least generally correct.

          Most religious people consider any others to be less moral. I've heard so much xian noise saying that people who don't believe in god (more specifically, their god), have no morals.

          "Morals" as we understand them (don't kill, don't steal, etc) are not handed down to us by an invisible sky being. They are pack mentality, and reinforcing traits of ... well ... evolution.

          Those cultures that evolved in believing wholesale murder is ok don't exist too long. I know if my "pack" (family/community/culture/society) is to survive and thrive, we can't just go around killing each other off. We can't steal necessities from each other. If either was outright acceptable, it would result in a rather short lived "pack". Such actions would result in retaliation by other packs, not only reducing our numbers, bu the numbers within the packs that we initiate conflicts in.

          It is impossible for any branch of human society to grow as a single person. That person will find it very difficult to survive on their own. They cannot reproduce on their own, and that line will terminate rather quickly.

            So morals are nothing less than traits that we have learned are necessary for the continuation of our species. Just because they were written down in a religious or legal context.

          I won't go and just kill someone. Why? It's not because a religious text demands it. It's not because laws were created to punish me for doing it. It's because I know it's "wrong", because it is not advantageous for the species. Any such action will likely result in retaliation.

          Maybe that's one of the things that religion has horribly wrong. Most religions that I know of can grant forgiveness by their higher power(s) (i.e., god or gods) by asking for it. So a religion makes it ok to commit such crimes, because if you honestly ask for forgiveness, then your "sins" will be absolved, and you will live in the glory of the pleasant option of the afterlife.

          Unfortunately, many religions state that non-believers will experience the unpleasant version of afterlife, and therefore are less worthy of many things including life as we know it.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    49. Re:sad isn't it ? by canadian_right · · Score: 2

      Do to its large size and some quirks of USA history, Texas has a huge influence on text books used throughout the USA. Thus, the Texas issues with science are issues for all of the USA.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    50. Re:sad isn't it ? by 1u3hr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would like to see you explain evolution to humans 4000 years ago when they have no idea about genes.

      Darwin didn't have any idea about genes. Well, he knew there was some method of inheritance, but not the chemistry. Evolution can be described, as he did, very simply, using the observations of existing animals, and how their qualities are inherited from one generation to the next, as farmers have observed, and used for breeding plants and animals for millennia. Dig up a few fossils too, and you could have made a case in ancient Greece in 500 BC. 4000 years ago? Maybe in Sumeria. They were pretty advanced then already.

    51. Re:sad isn't it ? by Jawnn · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I went to a religious school which had no problem teaching the theory of evolution in science class AND teaching the Adam and Eve/Genesis thing in religious classes (of course we spend most of our time in religious classes colouring stuff in and generally mucking around, while we go to do experiments and other fun stuff in science lass). Why cant they just do this in Texas?

      I live in Texas and I can tell you that it's a bit complex. First of all, the state has a big inferiority complex. They used to be the biggest state, until Alaska came along. Now they're the second biggest. Believe it or not, that seriously galls a lot of Texans. Next, they picked the wrong side in the Civil War, er... excuse me, "the War of Northern Aggression", only a few years after kicking Mexico's ass and gaining their own independence. Going 1 and 1 in the two biggest events in your states history may seem, well, acceptably average for most states but not the one that likes to think that it has some special place in the world. So, as is often the case with folks with over-inflated egos, Texans are insecure and scared, and scared people often turn to religion for answers. Cramming their religious views down the throats of children makes them feel like they are at least morally superior to "all them states with all them states with all them intellectual elites in 'em." Smart people, even people who are confident enough to led God fend for himself in spreading "the truth", are threatening to your average Texan.

    52. Re:sad isn't it ? by dcollins · · Score: 2

      "Anaximander is often regarded as a precursor of the modem theory of development. He deduces living beings, in a gradual development, from moisture under the influence of warmth, and suggests the view that men originated from animals of another sort, since if they had come into existence as human beings, needing fostering care for a long time, they would not have been able to maintain their existence. In Empedocles, as in Epicurus and Lucretius, who follow in Hs footsteps, there are rudimentary suggestions of the Darwinian theory in its broader sense; and here too, as with Darwin, the mechanical principle comes in; the process is adapted to a certain end by a sort of natural selection, without regarding nature as deliberately forming its results for these ends."

      These would be guys writing over 2,500 years ago in Ancient Greece.

      http://www.iep.utm.edu/evolutio/

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    53. Re:sad isn't it ? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      Because it would only be fair to teach all religions.

      Why? There certainly isn't time for this in school, any more than there's time to teach all branches of mathematics in maths classes.

      The different branches of mathematics complement, rather than contradict, each other.

      And if you can point to a historical event where the number theorists massacred large numbers of topologists then I'm all ears[1].

      At my school, religious studies classes

      i.e. not science. Should phlogiston theory be taught in chemistry? I don't mean as a passing anecdote about how they discovered oxygen.

      [1] of course, assuming they aren't pierced, that makes no difference at all.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    54. Re:sad isn't it ? by jc42 · · Score: 2

      The different branches of mathematics complement, rather than contradict, each other.

      And if you can point to a historical event where the number theorists massacred large numbers of topologists then I'm all ears[1].

      While there don't seem to be any documented mathematical massacres, there have been a number of cases of one group of mathematicians verbally attacking another group, and calling them very bad names. But the reaction to this hasn't been warfare.

      For example, a few centuries back, there was a dispute triggered by the proof that some numbers such as the square root of 2 "exist" (whatever that means ;-), but can't be represented precisely by the ratio of two integers. The traditionalists criticised the rationality of this bunch of upstarts. Their response was to define two sets of numbers: those which may be written as the ration of two integers, called "rational numbers", and those which cannot be so written, called "irrational numbers". Those are the names still used by mathematicians today, and the term "irrational" has lost all of its pejorative qualities in this context.

      Similarly, more recently some mathematicians started taking roots of negative numbers. The traditionalists objected that there were no numbers that could be squared to produce a negative number, so square roots of negative numbers aren't "real" (whatever that means ;-). The young upstarts reacted the same way: They referred to the traditionalists' numbers as "real numbers", and the numbers whose squares are negative as "imaginary numbers". Again, we still use those terms, teach them in school, and the "imaginary" has no pejorative meaning.

      Of course, with mathematics, usefulness in the real world has a history of forcing acceptance of new ideas. Both irrational and imaginary numbers have turned out to be useful to engineers in various fields, so they're a permanent part of our mathematics. Meanwhile, the integers, rationals and reals are still important subsets of the "complex" numbers, so their properties are also taught regularly.

      Perhaps we could adopt the mathematical approach to religious theories. We might teach the "many-worlds" cosmology, and use "imaginary" to describe the relationship between different world lines. Gods might exist, but the evidence is that they exist in only other world lines, "imaginary" to our world line, but real to those others. We might combine this concept with "fictional" world lines, which are much like imaginary world lines, but springing from the mind of a human writer. We could then start long discussions of whether "fictional and "imaginary" world lines are different. It'd be sorta like the P/NP problem in computing ...

      The critical thing might be whether, like mathematicians, we can use such terms without any pejorative implications. After all, if the many-world hypothesis turns out to be correct, we may someday find a way to study some of the "imaginary" worlds (but probably not the "fictional", as they depend on canon ;-).

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    55. Re:sad isn't it ? by MRe_nl · · Score: 2

      Sharia roughly means "the way to the water/oasis", but could easily be interpreted as "the law(s)" or "the commandments".
      Most Americans claim to be Christians, and most Christians claim to follow the ten commandments, ergo most Americans already live under a Christian Sharia.

      --
      "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
    56. Re:sad isn't it ? by MRe_nl · · Score: 2

      "There is a vast difference between living according to your God's commandments, and forcing everyone else to live under them".

      Yes, but every religion has had both aspects throughout history. This is in no way unique to Islam. Try running for office in the USA under an atheist ticket for instance, and I think the "Christian Taliban" will rear its head.

      --
      "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
  2. The earth is round, p .05 by Palmsie · · Score: 4, Informative

    Really? It sounds like someone from the board of education had a sit down with a statistician and thought it would sound cool to throw in the null because, for some reason, ID is the default explanation for the origin of species. I mean, this isn't a bad thing considering the vast amount of evidence in support of natural selection, ultimately suggesting that we can confidently reject the null.

    They also may want to take a look at Jacob Cohen's classic paper, 'the world is round, p .05' for more information about the current Fisherian statistical paradigm we currently exist in and what it means to establish a null (and ultimately reject or fail to reject it).

    --
    Carl Sagan quotes get you an automatic +5 on all posts.
  3. Derp. by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 4, Funny

    That... That is a whole lotta derp right there, I tell you what.

    --
    If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
    1. Re:Derp. by DrXym · · Score: 4, Insightful

      there aren't any experiments you can do to demonstrate evolutionary theory.

      Holy crap, of course there are experiments that demonstrate evolutionary theory. FFS just buy in some fruitflies or mice or feeder fish some other fast reproducing species and selectively breed them according to some observable trait. e.g. white and black mice, large & small fish etc. Split the animals into 3 groups - one where you select FOR the trait, one where you select AGAINST the trait, and a control group where you randomly select with no bias. After a few generations observe the results.

      Evolution is eminently demonstrable in the lab, and in the wild, and in the fossil and in DNA. Suggesting that some "god/aliens/magic pixies did it" hypothesis is utterly ridiculous.

    2. Re:Derp. by asylumx · · Score: 2

      In your attempt to appear smart, you actually betray yourself by saying "I would have much preferred that you used experiments that actually prove evolution" -- Unfortunately, science is actually about continuing repeatedly to disprove an idea. Only when that idea has withstood myriad tests is it actually accepted as "law" (which even then can be thrown out if it is disproved).

    3. Re:Derp. by lessthan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are a creationist trying to appear reasonable, demonstrated by your ignorance about evolution. The hereditary nature of genetics is evolution. Wikipedia, our friend, has a great example of exactly what you are looking for, "documented proof of a reproducible experiment showing the evolution of a species into a new and unique species." The bacteria E. coli cannot metabolize citric acid. Except after 12 generations, this E. coli did.

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    4. Re:Derp. by dachshund · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Holy crap, of course there are experiments that demonstrate evolutionary theory. FFS just buy in some fruitflies or mice ... After a few generations observe the results.

      Yep, and the ID folks know this. If you point to this fantastically amazing, observable phenomenon, they simply move the goalposts so that 'evolution' is defined as something you can't easily demonstrate in a lab. Speciation, for example, or the development of the eyeball in a complex species.

      Even if you somehow figure out how to demonstrate those things, they'll find a way to re-define it into something even harder: like "demonstrate that modern humans can be produced from single-cell bacteria".

      Point is, you can't argue with these folks, and you can't expect intellectual honesty out of a school of thought which posits the fundamental existence of some Intelligent Designer but then fails to express the slightest curiosity about who they are or how they operate.

      This has actually damaged public discourse. My father recently took a guided tour of a major national park. The ranger pointed our a species of small lizard, and told the group how this species had observably changed its colors and foodsource over the past few decades, in response to some changing environmental condition. One of the group innocently used the term 'evolution' to ask a question about this, and the ranger immediately stopped him and pointed out that this is an example of 'adaptation', not evolution. His correction had an 'I'm only correcting you to cover my ass' wink to it, but it's a shame that we live in a country where Federal employees have to be so careful and explicit.

  4. Null hypothesis my ass by subreality · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We scientifically-minded people have had a perfectly reasonable naturalistic explanation for the origin of life for a long time. No sir, the ball is in YOUR court to show that there is evidence for your intelligent design theory.

    1. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by tgtanman · · Score: 3, Funny
    2. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The fact there's currently no credible evidence for those conjectures isn't what makes them non-scientific, it's that there can't ever be.

      Even if the conjectures were true, there's no way to test them. THAT's what makes them non-scientific.

    3. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by GlassHeart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not illogical. The logic is simple: God is omnipotent; God made it so; therefore it is.

      No, omnipotence is entirely illogical. For example, can God create a rock so heavy that even He could not lift it? If He can, then He's not omnipotent because there's a rock He can't lift. If He cannot, then He's not omnipotent because there's a rock He can't create.

    4. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Simple: God uses his omnipotence to suspend logic and then does both at the same time :)

    5. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      You just killed four androids you insensitive clod. Quit it with the paradoxes.

    6. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by Micklat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What if we define omnipotence as "can do anything that is logically possible"? As in, not bound by physical laws, but still bound by logical laws?

      In this case, God cannot create a rock so heavy that even He cannot lift it, because no such rock could logically exist. So God's inability to create such a rock does not diminish His omnipotence. It's as if you asked: "Can God create a white sheet of paper that is also completely black?" Either the sheet is white or it is black. Similarly, either God can lift the rock, or the rock's existence is logically impossible.

    7. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by SnarfQuest · · Score: 2

      The bible also says that pi is 3, and that slavery is Ok.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    8. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2

      I would demand a far less challenging test of omnipotence:

      Can God create a universe that isn't hostile to life and morality?

      Not from the evidence we have. The only reason there is Sin in this universe is because God saw fit to create a universe built on scarcity that was hostile to life in the very laws of its universe.

      If we look to video games for comparison we'll see that intelligent agents design universes in which the laws of the universe are conducive to social and moral behavior even when the point of the game is to kill one another through dismemberment. At least in Counterstrike when you get shot in the head you respawn after a short period. Our universe has no such innate law. So evidently God wasn't even capable of creating a universe which meets the barest minimum of human friendly laws. Even doom which didn't really have physics at least bothered programming into the fundamental laws of its gameverse.

    9. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by PReDiToR · · Score: 5, Funny

      BABEL FISH :

      The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy recieved not from its own carrier but from those around it, It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. the practical upshot of this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any language.

      Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes like this : "I refuse to prove that I exist", says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

      "But", says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

      "Oh dear", says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

      "Oh that was easy" says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

      Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.

      --

      Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
    10. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What if we define omnipotence as "can do anything that is logically possible"? As in, not bound by physical laws, but still bound by logical laws?

      In this case, God cannot create a rock so heavy that even He cannot lift it, because no such rock could logically exist. So God's inability to create such a rock does not diminish His omnipotence. It's as if you asked: "Can God create a white sheet of paper that is also completely black?" Either the sheet is white or it is black. Similarly, either God can lift the rock, or the rock's existence is logically impossible.

      So, let's cut out the middle man and worship whoever made the rules that God can't break.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    11. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by Cwix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why not? Because you are not allowed to redefine terms just because the definition doesn't suit your needs.

      Definitions of omnipotence on the Web:

              * the state of being omnipotent; having unlimited power
                  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

      Unlimited power. That means anything, there is no limit due to logic. This is fitting because you have to suspend logic to believe a lot of the bible. (Or most if not all religions.)

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    12. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      You can falsify the existence by attributing predictable, rare and unusual events typically attributed to supernatural powers, such as solar eclipses. This has been done countless times throughout the history, and is still being done albeit on smaller scale then before.

      Though modern "God's miracles" are usually more among the line of self-suggestion and plain fraud.

    13. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by kanweg · · Score: 3, Funny

      And apparently his followers in TX have mastered the same feat (suspending logic). It is a miracle!

      Bert

    14. Re:Null hypothesis my ass by LS · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Problem is that logic is based on axioms. And logic itself is not provably consistent. Reference: Godel's incompleteness theorem

      --
      There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
  5. Short, simple explanation: by Senes · · Score: 4, Funny

    Creationists hate and fear anything different from what they were told to believe. They also breed and vote a lot.

    1. Re:Short, simple explanation: by petes_PoV · · Score: 3, Funny

      They also breed and vote a lot.

      But presumably they don't evolve?

      --
      politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  6. My null hypothesis ... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2

    Those sections say the 'null hypothesis' is that there had to be some intelligent agency behind the appearance of living things.

    ... is that the phrase "intelligent agency" doesn't apply to the Texas Board of Ed. I might concede the possibility of divine intervention to cover the bases of what isn't known, but "had to be" is a bit much. Just my $.02. In related news, I thank my parents for not raising me in Texas.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  7. This is not ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Democracy can only work with good education. The people voting are supposed to be able to make intelligent decisions.

    This kind of thing is going to undermine our ability to govern ourselves and I cannot imagine something more insidious than corrupting children toward that end.

    This must be stopped.

    1. Re:This is not ok by siddesu · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Education has never worked particularly well. For example, there was a huge effort in the second half of the 20th century to educate people and wean them off superstitions in the Soviet bloc. Since religions were largely suppressed officially, and high-school education with emphasis on physics and math was compulsory, it should have worked reasonably well. However, public education could not overcome superstitions, and there has been a steady presence of various magicians in public life -- from people who would heal you with magic, to politicians who would solve political problems or build nanotech industry with magic. Currently most if not all ex-Eastern bloc experience some sort of revival of religion, especially as a badge to counter the "Islamic threat".

      And I doubt if education has worked very well in the US in the past 50 years as well -- IMHO the advances of science in the US were mostly due to brain drain, when the best brains from all over the world moved there to enjoy the rich life post WWII, and by the bias towards making better killing machinery that gave the said brains a little more money than is customary in the typical human society.

      But when the knowledge is so much and so advanced that it is too hard to even grasp the basics without spending 10 years in higher education doing hard work and producing nothing obviously "valuable", it is no surprise that most people will find a simplified model of reality that helps them go on with their lives. It is even less surprising when they choose a model that is, on the face, largely compatible with the world they see every day and their way of thinking is deeply rooted in their past.

  8. You Gotta Be Kidding Me by Shifty0x88 · · Score: 2

    Really?
    I grew up in a religious household and I respect people for their views on creationism (although I do not agree, no matter how long you believe a "day" is), but evolution is just as plausible if not more so, because they have some evidence, not none(well besides an old book re-written a million times and re-worded just as many times).

    From the article: "In 2009 the Texas Board of Education said that students should be taught "all sides" of current scientific theories."

    but creationism isn't allowed because it's religious. I'm so confused.


    Sorry Texas but stop your backwards ideas/views and join the real world

    1. Re:You Gotta Be Kidding Me by JWSmythe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      From the article: "In 2009 the Texas Board of Education said that students should be taught "all sides" of current scientific theories."

      but creationism isn't allowed because it's religious. I'm so confused.

          That would imply that all theories, regardless of any evidence or factual basis, should be taught.

          Use of a book, commonly referenced to as "The Bible", which there are currently 190 modern versions of that I'm aware of, which all rooted from various oral traditions handed down over years, noted down, translated, re-translated (repeat ad nauseum), to which ever of the 190 modern versions you may have read an ancient fairy tale in.

          If it's truly necessary to discuss every unsubstantiated creation theory, all sides of the story should be taught. Not just all 190 versions from the "bible", but all creation legends according to all religions and cultures.

          Or we could stick with teaching substantiated facts. Nah, that would make way too much sense.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    2. Re:You Gotta Be Kidding Me by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      It's supposed to be confusing. The legal treatment of creationism always has to involve jumping through a few hoops and slight deception in order to wriggle around the first amendment and court precidents. The primary lie is to claim that creationism is a scientific theory and isn't religious at all, in order to avoid openly endorsing a religion. Intelligent Design was created for exactly that purpose - a varient of Creationism that didn't refer to God, but instead to some form of mysterious superintelligent near-omnipotent creator entity that may or may not be God, but certainly looked a lot like him.

    3. Re:You Gotta Be Kidding Me by jjohnson · · Score: 2

      creationism isn't allowed because it's religious. I'm so confused.

      Why are you confused? You said it yourself: creationism is religious, which means it's not scientific, which means it's not a scientific theory, no matter how much creationists try to dress it up as one.

      --
      Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
    4. Re:You Gotta Be Kidding Me by kae_verens · · Score: 2

      > That would imply that all theories, regardless of any evidence or factual basis, should be taught.

      no - read it again:

      > "In 2009 the Texas Board of Education said that students should be taught "all sides" of current scientific theories."

      creationism is not a current scientific theory.

  9. Reminder by Legion303 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Evolutionary theory has fuck-all to do with abiogenisis.

    1. Re:Reminder by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 4, Informative

      In short - once you get back to the amoeba most of the religious objections to evolution are there regardless. So a God which created an amoeba is as unChristian as a God which doesn't exist.

      They aren't wrong on this point. Once you eliminate the Adam and Eve story you no longer can place the blame for our fall on humanity. And when humanity isn't at fault for our suffering then the only person who can be blamed is God.

      Once God is responsible our imperfection and exact design (through evolution) then he's evil since he designed us to evidently suffer.

      If you assume that he evolved (through death and suffering) the human body but it was then (unlike the rest of the species on this planet) perfect and then corrupted by a Satan figure then again it's Satan's fault and not our own and once again we're not responsible for our defects.

      You need literalism to maintain the viewpoint that we're responsible for our own suffering and God really really would like to help us but can't since it's our own fault--not his.

      Essentially Christianity says that Humanity voided its warranty when it ate the apple. If you say that God started Abiogenesis then he's still responsible and we're all still under warranty. That doesn't fit within the saved/condemned view of the Christian church.

  10. Fucking Luddites by haruchai · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As far back as I can remember, I couldn't wait for the future to arrive and dreamed every night that I would wake up in the 23rd century. So here I am decades later, living in the 19th.

    --
    Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    1. Re:Fucking Luddites by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      As far back as I can remember, I couldn't wait for the future to arrive and dreamed every night that I would wake up in the 23rd century. So here I am decades later, living in the 19th.

      No, you're in the 23rd.

      BC.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  11. Re:The earth is round, p .05 by bloodhawk · · Score: 2

    It is a bad thing because in the scientific world we don't use the default of "some magic being created it" if we don't understand it. Science is about study and practise in order to uncover an understanding of the truth. At no stage should any scientific baseline start with the unicorns did it.

  12. Not Derp, Democracy. by siddesu · · Score: 2

    What the majority wants eventually wins. When there are no external threats, the majority will create its own scarecrows -- usually from the things they understand least. Modern science is high on that list, especially given the many "evil scientist" representations in what Wikipedia calls "modern culture".

    I expect you to vote, Mr. Bond.

  13. The null hypothesis is that we were always there by Your.Master · · Score: 2

    Why wouldn't the null hypothesis be "people have always been basically the same as they are today"? Surely that was the null hypothesis that both evolution and creationism attempted to supplant?

    Yes, it fails because of all the reasons we know life wasn't always here throughout an infinite history and that time is not cyclical over the timescale of human existence. That's why it's the null hypothesis that the theory of evolution disproves and supercedes. Creationism also seeks to supplant it by positing some creative event that put into place the current ecosystem, whose basis comes from, essentially, old books and traditions, with maybe the occasional misunderstanding of probability and the absolutely grand scales of time and space involved.

  14. Re:The earth is round, p .05 by JWSmythe · · Score: 5, Interesting

        In a theology class, a respected Reverend said "Religion is simple mans way of explaining what he doesn't understand".

        Over the next several sessions, he covered various cultural and religious beliefs by groups from around the world.

        I had known him for years, but it wasn't until that day that I realized, he wasn't a leading member of the church to preach the word of god. He was a leading member of the church to help people who couldn't grasp the fact that there are things we don't fully understand yet. He wasn't preaching the "truth" in gospel. He was helping them from being scared of the unknown.

        Unfortunately, there are too many people who take these fairy tales that were intended to help them not be scared, and demand everyone understand it as the truth.

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  15. It must be falsifiable by Kjellander · · Score: 5, Informative

    A null hypothesis must be falsifiable, and therefor "it must be a wizard that did it" cannot be the null hypothesis.

    Q.E.D.

    1. Re:It must be falsifiable by wickerprints · · Score: 2

      You're attempting to apply logic to individuals who have none. It's like trying to use adult reasoning on a toddler, to explain why he/she can't have all the candy they want. Someone who is trying to push creationism as scientific theory has already thrown all logic out the window; thus, it is utterly useless to try to convince them otherwise.

  16. Stupid! by SnarfQuest · · Score: 2

    there had to be some intelligent agency behind the appearance of living things

    Ok, so what intelligent agency created them, and who created them, and who created them, ...

    How did the first "intelligent agency" come to be, because there had to be one before them, but there couldn't be because they were the first.

    This is a stupid theory that invalidates itself.

    --
    Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
  17. I'm no Richard Dawkins, so... by ndogg · · Score: 5, Interesting

    More like the Samuel L Jackson version of Dawkins (although, I'll admit I'm not nearly as cool as either.) And yes, I'm just letting of some steam here.

    What?!

    What the fuck?!

    Those sections say the "null hypothesis" is that there had to be some intelligent agency behind the appearance of living things. It is up to the scientists proposing a naturalistic explanation to prove their case.

    Since motherfucking when? I'll tell you, motherfucking never. How much more fucking evidence must scientists throw before your motherfucking ugly fucking face before you fucking get it?

    Sample says the "null hypothesis" is such because the old experiments that attempted to produce "building blocks" of amino acids failed to do so. In addition later experiments that produced other precursor chemicals, such as DNA and RNA, required very specific conditions in a lab, and aren't he said. Necessarily reflective of what the early Earth was like. Therefore, he said, the odds of making life from non-life seem too small for a naturalistic hypothesis to work.

    Well, what the fuck do you call this? And very specific lab conditions? Well, guess what motherfucker, the early Earth have very specific conditions that resemble nothing like what we have today, so yes, those conditions have to be specific in the laboratory. This doesn't even touch the fact that the early Earth was a much bigger fucking laboratory than some fucking room at a university.

    Sample says it isn't stealth creationism - he says the intelligent agency might just as well be aliens. But he emphasizes that he wants students to learn to think critically, and that unlike the physical sciences, there aren't any experiments you can do to demonstrate evolutionary theory.

    Firstly, observational evidence that can be repeatably confirmed is just as valid as repeatable experiments with observation in a laboratory. And this is yet another case of "What the fuck do you call this?":

    While studying the genetics of the evening primrose, Oenothera lamarckiana, de Vries (1905) found an unusual variant among his plants. O. lamarckiana has a chromosome number of 2N = 14. The variant had a chromosome number of 2N = 28. He found that he was unable to breed this variant with O. lamarckiana. He named this new species O. gigas.

    Do you see what year is in there? 1905! Speciation was observed in nineteen o'fucking five. That's 23 fucking years after Darwin's death. Can't fucking demonstrate evolution in the lab my ass.

    To paraphrase:

    Does the idea that there might be knowledge frighten you?
    Does the idea that one afternoon on Wiki-fucking-pedia might enlighten you frighten you?
    Does the idea that there might not be a supernatural so blow your Christian noodle that you'd rather stand there in the fog of your inability to Google?
    Isn’t this enough?
    Just this world?
    Just this beautiful, complex
    Wonderfully unfathomable, NATURAL world?
    How does it so fail to hold our attention
    That we have to diminish it with the invention
    Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?

    (Watch the rest, you won't regret it, promise.)

    I get the idea that it's scary to think that this is all we have, but that's not an excuse to just start making things up to make yourself feel comfortable. If we truly want immortality, the only thing that can possibly deliver on that is science. And we can't continue to be held back by people whose only goal is to advance their favorite fairy tales in spite of the consequences. And yes, science can answer question

    --
    // file: mice.h
    #include "frickin_lasers.h"
    1. Re:I'm no Richard Dawkins, so... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Informative

      Can't fucking demonstrate evolution in the lab my ass.

      Okay, so you've got speciation. How do you get from there to evolution?

      When two populations no longer interbreed, the mutations within each population become uncorrelated, build up separately, and ultimately result in two unlike phenotypes.

      Or maybe you should explain what you mean by "evolution".

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  18. Re:Intelligent design? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2

    As a missing link it makes sense. As a finished product it does not

    But then how do you explain ClearCase? Wasn't it intelligently designed?

  19. Re:The earth is round, p .05 by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How the world *should be* should be based on the way it is.

    Codes of Ethics are best based on psychology and empiricism. If you wish to create an ethical construct "You should be monogamous with a member of the opposite sex and faithful for your entire life." Then you should have evidence to support that the outcome of that rule results in the maximum happiness/success/productivity/etc.

    Worship is based on an expression again of what elicits the maximum spiritual experience in the believer within the historical/metaphystical claims of the religion. The historical claims are subject to historical sciences and the metaphysical claims are subject to the logical/philosophical fields. Both the logical and philosophical fields also require empirical data to form their assumptions.

    At its core Religion is history. It's a claim about the history of the world. Without that history it has no special authority. The authority that religion derives is directly tied to its emperical claims about the world.

    If Jesus didn't exist then the words of Christ might be valid but Christianity had to defend their code-of-ethics based on the same criteria everyone else does: empirical studies on the cultural and personal efficacies of those rules. The only reason Religion believes it can circumvent that regular oversight is because it's been ordained by God and God is perfect therefore his commandments require no double checking.

    Science is perfectly capable of saying how the world should be. In fact it's better than speculation by bronze age goat herders.

    Religion: You should treat women like property and second class citizens.
    Science: Women are usually equally capable of making as good of decisions as men and should be equals.

    Religion bases its belief on divine ordination. Science performs tests and determines that "God" is a sexist bigot.

    Religion: The world should be perfect and some day God will fix it if you sign this metaphysical document here agreeing to agree with everything contained in this book.
    Science: The world should be perfect and here are some ways that have a good chance of making it better.

    When atheists reduce Religion to God of the Gaps they're being generous. Because Religion not only tries to fill in Gaps, it also tries to fill in things that we're confident about--but are quite different from the religious claims. Atheists try to give the original authors the benefit of the doubt that knowing what we know now they wouldn't have written such foolish things and attributed it to God.

  20. Re:The earth is round, p .05 by DMiax · · Score: 2

    How the people should behave is not religion, it is ethics. People can have no religion and be ethical and can have a religion and behave unethically. If you cannot see ethics outside religion you just cannot see ethics outside *your* religion and start to think like a fundamentalist.

  21. vacuous by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

    If we're the result of the efforts of some "intelligent agency", that just replaces the origins question with "Where did the intelligent agency come from?"

    Of course, their answer is "God", who, unlike everything else, they claim does not require an explanation. You regularly hear creationists argue that God must exist because "everything has to have a cause", but when you ask what caused God they're suddenly willing to make an exception.

    But when offered the hypotheses of and uncaused God and an uncaused universe, the uncaused universe is the economic explanation; assuming an uncaused God is a bigger assumption, because you're assuming the existence of something that's more than the universe.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  22. Great news for China & India by kaapstorm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If I were Chinese or Indian, I would be loving this. Imagine, my biggest competitor, ensuring their next generation is superstitious and ignorant. Perfect!

  23. Re:The earth is round, p .05 by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 2

    If religion is the normative study of how the world should be, I hand in my membership card. Religion is probably the worst method of doing normative study, as it is based on fairy tales of ages old, arguments from authority, and stuff people make up on the spot. Ethics can be approach logically, consistently, and without any reference to a book that supposedly contains the basis of your ethics (or the basis of 20 mutually inconsistent normative approaches). As there's no solid basis for weighing argumentation, a religious normative debate usually ends up with a cabal of people claiming to be right because 'God says so'.

  24. Null hypothesis? by Arancaytar · · Score: 2

    A null hypothesis is falsifiable.

    Creationists: Come up with a real, actual experiment and a plausible outcome of it that will disprove the existence of an intelligent creator in your eyes. Sign a binding statement to shut the fuck up about God if that outcome occurs. Then people will stop laughing at you, at least until the experiment shows you wrong and you start whining about interpretations and ineffability.

    You could be honest with yourselves and reject the scientific method outright - "don't trust your eyes, trust your faith." It's slightly ridiculous and nobody will take you seriously, but at least you'll be left alone. You want to play at being scientists? Then you'll play by the rules of science.

  25. Good for me. Good for Europe. Good for China. by drolli · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The less scientists there are on the world, the higher my salary. Please go on teaching your students that scientific theories are stories about how it could be, without making any testable predictions.

    That strategy and mind-set will be very helpful when doing fault-finding in semiconductors. In case the fault rate goes to high, please don't look for testable reasons, but invent a story how a higher intelligence planned out that a race condition or some glitch on the laptop sold to a specific customer is the will of god. The claim that it is very unlikely that a complex processor exists by coincidence and declare any working processor to be the work of a higher intelligence. Don't forget, you cant loose this argument - you cant be proven wrong, unless the stupid guy who tests one process gas after the other for purity - he is wrong all the time.

    The fundamental difference between evolution and ID is that evolution tells me what should happen if i put bacteria in a nutrient and change the nutrient compostion slowly over 100000 generations of bacteria. ID doesn't.

    1. Re:Good for me. Good for Europe. Good for China. by drolli · · Score: 2

      Well, well. I am a scientist and i never encounter truth in my experiments. Truth is not a scientific category. The only scientific categories are: falsified theories, which result in hypotheses, which result in non-falsified theories until they are falsified on a more general base than the previous assumption and refined. The scientific progress is a circle. once you figure out something and model it, you can go to the limits of the model and refine the model to include the new boundaries of your experiments.

      In that sense: Scientists did not "make up dark matter because some euquations demand it" but dark matter is one hypothesis on which currently theories are explored in order to explain why the experimental observations deviate from the earlier predictions. Which is what has happened to Heinrich Hertz or Max Planck. Once your description fits the world well enough to describe it in the known limit, you will find something strange.

  26. Re:Evolution is no more proven than Creationism. by bmo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    >UNKNOWN REASON,

    It's not unknown. It's errors. DNA does not copy exactly every time. And sex is merely a way of being able to get more variation in DNA. More variation = more chances to survive (up to a point).

    And if you want to get down to the actual reason why DNA copies are not always true, it's because of physics. Physics and probability. Nothing more and nothing less. We've been testing the probability part of the physics for nearly 100 years.

    And since your argument fails on its premise - that we don't know where the randomness comes from, all that shit you typed was for naught. The attempt to pull science down to "we just don't know" failed. Indeed, your entire argument is "Argument from incredulity" which isn't an argument at all, but simply a lack of imagination on your part.

    Your argument is typical of creationst screeds. It tries to paint scientific arguments as "we just don't know either" when in fact that's not true. Science has done a pretty good job of explaining how the universe operates and we've created some nifty technology based on those rules, which in itself is a test of those rules.

    Creationist arguments are not testable. They are not science. Evolution is testable. In fact, we run experiments on evolution all the time with antibiotics. Such experimentation by society nearly killed me with MRSA.

    Keep religion out of the classroom unless you want to teach it as a cultural studies course. But then you have to teach other cultures to put things in perspective, and I don't think that the christian taliban behind this bullshit are quite prepared to have the Quran, Mahabharata, Tibetan book of the dead, the writings of Zoroaster, et alia to young minds. They might find their kids might learn something.

    --
    BMO

  27. Re:The earth is round, p .05 by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2

    No. Science might run a bunch of tests and determine that women are equal to men in whatever category it is being studied. *That* is the extent of science. Applying it to normative questions is not science, but something else. Sociology, perhaps, in this example.

    Ummm, Sociology is the scientific study of societies. Sociologists use both qualitative and quantitative analysis like any other science to study societies.

    But when someone makes a normative claim like "most animals are not monogamous, therefore I need not be monogamous", it just sets my teeth on edge.

    As it should since that's a strawman first off and secondly not very good science. That's like saying "Fish can breath underwater therefore there is no reason to say that you shouldn't be able forbidden from holding your neighbor underwater for hours on end." If however science found that *HUMANS* were actually happier in non-monogamous relationships (and many are) then it would stand to reason that monogamy is not an absolute rule.

    When you use this as the basis for your code of ethics, you see nothing especially wrong in infecting twins with smallpox, as the lessons you learn from your horrible results will result in "maximum happiness" for the human population.

    Whether or not ends justify means isn't really addressed by any religion either. I don't remember any religion covering "Thou shalt not perform experiments on humans which will harm your subjects."

    The closest is the Hippocratic Oath which was largely secular. Furthermore the basis of that is that all human life has value and that we cannot simply take life or injure others without their consent. That's a practical empirically verifiable position since without that basis we open ourselves to tyrannical societies with majority abuse. Our ideal society is not like that and any such society ultimately implodes under corruption and general malaise. You're reducing "science" to essentially saying that happiness is the only standard and if the murder of a hobo makes many happy we are net happier. But I didn't say that. I said maximize Happiness/Success/Productivity/ETC. Etc also includes freedom, independence and value of all sentient life.

  28. Re:How is this a problem? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

    If Evolutionists can't provide sufficient evidence to disprove the null hypothesis then why should should Evolutionism itself not be considered just as much a matter of faith as Intelligent Design? Arguing that the existence of a process proves the non-existence of the process engineer is no better than saying we were all created as we are in an instant. Neither argument carries any logical validity and can only be considered as statements of "faith".

    Apples fall because of gravity - along with God's help.

    Combining hydrogen and oxygen produces water via a chemical reaction - along with God's help.

    We get rain because water vapor in the atmosphere condenses into droplets - along with God's help.

    My car moves because internal combustion is converted to rotary power with a crankshaft, and the rotary power is transmitted to the wheels via the drive train - along with God's help.

    I can compose this message on my computer because...

    You can read it on the internet because...

    How come "maybe God helped it" only needs to be considered when ordinary explanations contradict someone's religious beliefs?

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  29. Ignorance is breeding in the U.S., literally... by poly_pusher · · Score: 2, Informative

    Every time I read one of these stories I think of my little cousins... They are a full generation younger than I but still my cousins. They have been raised by two wonderful and caring people; An evangelical minister and his wife. Somehow, despite their caring and the love for GOD they have passed on, these three children are for all purposes, ILLITERATE!!!! The eldest, age 12, somehow made it to grade 6 without being capable of reading. They were sent to an evangelical school where the teachings of the Bible trumped basic skills.

    Fortunately, they are now in public school. The 12 year old has been brought back 2 grades and the two little ones brought back 1 grade. "This was a concession as the school felt that all three children should be brought back further" They will have to suffer the the stigma of being the "stupid" kids in their classes. They will have to work their butts off just to reach the same level of understanding as their peers.

    This anti-evolution movement is part of a much bigger, much scarier problem in The United States. It is actually an anti-intellectualism movement and it scares the crap out of me. Last year in Texas there was a school board trying to remove references of Thomas Jefferson from History texts because of his deist beliefs. They were also trying to refer to the Slave Trade as the "Atlantic Triangular Trade."

    Ignorance is alive and well in this country. And it's literally breeding...

  30. How long does it take to teach ID? by Bruinwar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How long does it take to teach Intelligent Design anyhow? Would not a lecture lasting more than ten minutes run out of material?

    IMO what these people really want is not to teach evolution at all. Darn kids are smart enough see which concept holds water when placed side by side.

    --
    SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT
  31. No miracles? by mangu · · Score: 2

    He can't break his own laws

    Breaking his own laws is what's called a "miracle".

    But regarding omnipotence there's a question that has been unanswered for so long that there's a special name for it: theodicy. If god is both infinitely powerful *and* infinitely good, then why does he allow suffering to exist?

    1. Re:No miracles? by archivis · · Score: 2

      God is also infinitely a jerk.

      --
      In July O7, I got a mac pro. There's no punchline. Just endless joy and wonder.
  32. Strange world,eh? by Mathinker · · Score: 2

    How is it then that I've managed to live over 40 years, and the vast majority of non-atheists I know only believe moderately in their religion, and use it solely for life transition ceremonies like marriage, birth, burial, or perhaps the annual Christmas eve mass "before the party"?

    Oh, and by the way, I'm not Christian, nor do I believe in any major religion. But your assumption that I have religious beliefs is another data point which shows me that atheists who actively protest against religion tend to be aggressive about it. I admire your ardentness but must point out that not everyone who disagrees with you believes in what you think they believe in.

    Just because the fundies are a lot louder than the moderates (see, I can bold stuff also), doesn't make them a majority in many locations, even in the US.

    the "moderate" Christians who supposedly represent a "majority" go completely silent. In spite of their alleged "majority" status, they seldom if ever seem to be capable of halting the relentless march back to the Dark Ages.

    Your assumption that they are silent because they actively support the fundamentalist seems to me to need real statistics for confirmation. I take it that your reasoning is "because the percentage of non-fundamentalist Christians in the set of people actively protesting X is very small, this means that the majority of non-fundamentalist Christians support X". This seems to be erroneous reasoning, it only means that Christians are less likely to actively protest X compared to atheists. There are billions of Chinese atheists who also do not protest against anti-evolution crap, does this mean that they support it? It does, by your reasoning.

  33. Re:The earth is round, p .05 by neonsignal · · Score: 2

    Perhaps the null hypothesis is that there are no intelligent living things (at least in Texas). I propose that we call this 'Unintelligible Design'.

  34. Re:Each theory? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wonder why there's this big issue with creationism in the US. Even the Roman Catholic church (ya know, the guys in old women's dresses with the inquisition and all) have no beef with the idea of a big bang and evolution. I guess they learned from their Gallileo fiasco. And even back then there were voices that said that the Bible only tells you how to get into heaven, not how heaven works, and that's pretty much their stance today: Are there parts in the Bible that seem to contradict how the world works? Yes. Does it matter? No, because it's God's word and if we understand it wrong, it's us that fail, we're mere men, we can't understand the plan and word of God. Ever. Case closed.

    Why do Creationists feel the need to push their faith into science? What's the gain? I see mostly a dangerous side effect: That pupils will see that they're being taught bullshit and extrapolate that if you get to hear bull in one class, it won't be much better for the others.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  35. Re:Logic is only a game by Daengbo · · Score: 2

    These types of games remind me of long essays explaining how the laws of the DC universe of Superman or the Star Wars universe operate to make everything that was written internally consistent. It's humorous in the same way The Big Bang Theory is intended to be.

  36. Re:Each theory? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why do Creationists feel the need to push their faith into science?

    Because it plays well to the yokels and brings comeuppance to those high and mighty professors with their useless book-learning and fancy education. And it makes them liberals mad, which is a bonus.

    And one wonders how we've gotten so royally fucked as a nation...

    Actually, the serious answer to your question is "Creationists feel the need to push their faith into science because replacing science and reason with magical thinking and superstition is a necessary part of destroying a middle-class and creating a new feudal state. You have to attack all of the empowering institutions to make that happen: science, education, a reliable news media, social security programs etc. and replace them with fear, superstition, divided communities, regionalism, ignorance. And the final step for the entities pushing this agenda, as always, is...Profit!"

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  37. Re:Each theory? by bgowing · · Score: 2

    The bible is NOT, I repeat, NOT the word of God. It was authored by men and men alone. You might have even heard of a few of them, lik Mathew, Mark, Luke and others. They may describe acts attributed to a god but other than that it's all man.

  38. Neutral by b4upoo · · Score: 2

    Evolution does not address the divine. God may well have deliberately created evolution and for all we know God, Himself might have evolved from a lesser state or continue to evolve today. It is only a few oddball church groups that have a problem with evolution. Creationism has a place in world religions course but should not be mentioned anywhere near a science class. Hopefully students might be able to tell when they are actually in a science class.

  39. Re:sad isn't it ? Very fycking sad godma by OldHawk777 · · Score: 2

    "The godma/dogma affected will never reason effective." They are fyking delusional megalomaniacs like hitler, stalin, napoleon, popes, mullah ... all godma-wars prove insanity lurks within the "soul" of many humans.

    Another sign of politician/clergy...sheep is their fervent belief that godma/dogma is a prerequisite for moral/ethical nature/behavior. From decades of experience and observation, I do expect, regular folks and atheist will protect and never (weasel-rules) break any 10 Constitutional Rights, commandments.... Politician/clergy and their sheep are mental/emotional cripples that are still willing to murder (men, women, children) all infidels for a global dogma/godma-republic on earth.

    US/EU... Democracy is we rule with reason. We are responsible.
    US/EU... Republic is godma/dogma values. We ain't responsible.

     

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  40. "Eminent scientists" rejected big bang theory ... by perpenso · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I find it curious that for all the backwards stuff the Catholic Church does, evolution doesn't seem to bother them in the slightest.

    FWIW, the vatican observatory does real academic research: Planetary Sciences, Stellar Astronomy, Extragalactic Astronomy, Cosmology.
    "With support from the Vatican government, the scientists at the Vatican Observatory have a freedom to choose research topics not constrained by three-year proposal cycles or passing scientific fashions. As a result, our research topics, reflecting the wide range of interests in our staff, can focus on long-term survey programs and sometimes risky cutting-edge topics."
    http://www.vaticanobservatory.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=38&Itemid=145

    Also, the current theory for the origin of the universe, the big bang theory, was developed by a priest and it was rejected by the "open minded" eminent scientists of the day because it was developed by a priest and "smelled of creationism". The term "big bang" was used by these eminent scientists as a pejorative.
    "Monsignor Georges Lemaître, a priest from the Catholic University of Louvain, proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe, he called it his "hypothesis of the primeval atom". The framework for the model relies on Albert Einstein's general relativity and on simplifying assumptions (such as homogeneity and isotropy of space). The governing equations had been formulated by Alexander Friedmann. In 1929, Edwin Hubble discovered that the distances to far away galaxies were generally proportional to their redshifts — an idea originally suggested by Lemaître in 1927. Hubble's observation was taken to indicate that all very distant galaxies and clusters have an apparent velocity directly away from our vantage point: the farther away, the higher the apparent velocity."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_Theory

  41. Re:Galileo by Muros · · Score: 2

    That is actually a bit of a myth. The pope had a problem with Galileo, but that was because of the way he framed his theory, in the way of a story, using the name of the pope as one of the villains. If he had resisted poking fun at the most powerful man around he would have been fine.

  42. Re:Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

    "Evolution" is both a theory and a fact. The "Theory of Evolution" is science's explanation for the fact of evolution.

    What few (if any) creationists don't realize is that the fact of evolution was recognized over half a century before Darwin published his explanatory hypothesis. Lamarck published his (incorrect) theory in 1809.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  43. Re:The earth is round, p .05 by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

    I believe, as an atheist, that someone who requires a set of arbitrary rules to behave ethically -- or worse, the threat of eternal damnation -- is a scumbag at heart. Although I believe actions speak louder than words, I also believe doing the right thing for the wrong reason is not sustainable.

    Thus I believe that ethical systems based on figuring out which individual behaviour leads to more desirable collective outcomes are better ethical systems than those prescribing the same individual behaviours for arbitrary reasons.

    Also, as an individual, ethics are not hard to build: one but needs to think about the consequences of one's actions, and prefer those actions which are better for the greater number of people, as well as those actions which have no more negative outcomes when duplicated by a large fractions of the population. And this is fundamentally consistent with the belief that there is no afterlife and no second chances: your deeds live after you, as well as the memories people have of you. “Heaven”, is therefore when these are maximised.

  44. What the "null" hypothesis actually is by tgibbs · · Score: 3, Informative

    One often hears cranks of one sort or another insisting that their view should be the "null" hypothesis.
    This reflects a widespread misunderstanding of what the "null hypothesis" actually is.
    Cranks imagine that the null hypothesis is somehow a privileged hypothesis that doesn't require evidence--it is just assumed be true until proven false--which is why they want their own particular notion to be considered "null."

    In reality, the "null hypothesis" has a very specialized meaning, which is not general to science, but rather limited to statistics.
    Basically, when you are asking if two things are different, or if something has changed, one does this by exclusion--by showing that the evidence does not support the assumption that there is no difference. That's what the "null" means--"no difference." This does not mean that one starts by assuming that "no change" is correct, or even that the null hypothesis is more likely to be true.

    Of course, a creation myth, like the theory of evolution, is an account of change, so it cannot possibly be a null hypothesis. A null hypothesis of the history of life--that nothing has changed--is not going to be very appealing to those who look to nature to justify their religious beliefs, because a universe that has always existed, unchanging, does not have much need for Gods. Scientists are more open to the notion; at one time, a steady-state theory of cosmology was popular. It's just that the evidence, both cosmological and earthly, does not support the null hypothesis of an unchanging universe.

  45. Re:Each theory? by antifoidulus · · Score: 4, Informative

    There is sort of a chicken and egg thing going on, but they do tend to feed into each other. The huge religious revival in the United States occurred just as the factories were starting to close en masse. This is not a coincidence, people lives literally turned from a certainty of relative comfort and ease in exchange for a bit of hard work into a massive pile of uncertainty. To counteract the uncertainty they turned to those who promised certainty, ie the church. The rich noticed this trend and immediately set out to use it to their own advantage. To make sure the people they were fucking over didn't rise up against them, they cajoled the Republican party into adopting a lot of the hard core religious beliefs(the ones who are "certain" about everything) and combine them with pro-rich policies. That way you could actually convince people to vote against their own economic interests.

  46. Re:Each theory? by thej1nx · · Score: 2
    Right... I fully agree that students should be encouraged to question and distrust everything they are taught in every single class, without being provided undeniable proof.

    Teacher : World is round.
    Student : Prove it!
    Teacher : Folks have sailed around the world. That proves the world is round.
    Student : I haven't sailed around it. How do *I* know? How do I know anyone has actually sailed around the world? Prove it!
    Teacher : They took photos from satellites. Shows the world is round.
    Student : I didn't take those photos! How do I know those photos are real? Prove it!
    Teacher : Astronomical calculations prove that world has to be round.
    Student : I don't understand this complicated maths. Prove it!
    Teacher : Uh, this over here on the globe map is America.
    Student : PROVE IT!

    Or while we are at it

    Teacher : George Washington was the first president.
    Student : Prove it! How do I know that? Everyone who existed at that time is dead. How do I know you are not bullshitting? Is there any proof that this guy actually existed? I use photoshop too, so don't show me any photos and crap!
    Teacher : USA has 50 states.
    Student : Prove it!
    Teacher : Everything is composed of atoms and molecules.
    Student : Prove it! And don't show me any funny circles in an electron microscope. Why should I trust anything you show me? Those could be anything!

    You will be surprised at how much of what we teach in school, is expected to be taken on basis of trust and faith. It is neither practical nor feasible to teach anything whatsoever to a student who is expected to question and distrust everything you say. GP is right. You make the student doubt everything you state, and it will become downright impossible to teach any science whatsoever in the classes. The only way the system works is by "proving" to the student that teacher is correct and trustworthy in most of the cases, and therefore asking him to trust the teachers even in the cases that cannot be demonstrated/proved in a class room.

    Start teaching them bullshit like "Everything needs a creator and therefore God created everything!" and the next obvious question they will eventually ask is "If everything needs a creator, who created God?". If you answer with "Nobody created God", they will simply ask "then why does everything else need a creator either?" and eventually thinking you are not being completely honest with them, or worse, are actually stupid.