Sony Compromised, Again

Konsalik writes "The hacker group LulzSec on Thursday posted information it took from Sony Entertainment and Sony BMG on its site, called the LulzBoat. Lulz Security said it broke into servers that run SonyPictures.com. The information includes about a million usernames and passwords of customers in the US, the Netherlands and Belgium and is available for download and posted on the group's site."

Comments

I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Barrinmw]

...if sony came out and apologized for being asshats and promising to never do it again.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[MarkvW]

I certainly wouldn't hold Sony to a promise that was extorted from them.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[drb226]

didn't they just do that (the "promising" part) with the PSN?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[nurb432]

Why would they believe Sony?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[poity]

That sets an unwanted precedence. Same reason governments don't negotiate with terrorists (or at least not in public)

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Labcoat Samurai]

If the point of the hack is just to embarass Sony, they don't need to post customer information on their website. That is potentially hurting real people who are not responsible for Sony's activities. And no, paying for a Sony product does not make you responsible for their activities, particularly when it's you, the customer, who generally gets screwed by such activities.

That's like exposing a wife beater by publishing the names and addresses of all his past wives.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[kehren77]

...if sony came out and apologized for being asshats and promising to never do it again.

I wonder if they realize the only people they really hurt by doing this is the average gamer who just wants to play a video game and doesn't give a crap about "jailbreaking" their PS3.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[nhat11]

It's the same group that hacked PBS: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/30/pbs-hacked-tupac-alive_n_868673.html This group just trying to get publicity and attention.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[ATMAvatar]

Strictly speaking in a free market sense, paying for Sony products does make you partially responsible. Why, you ask? Because the invisible hand that supposedly corrects poor behavior in corporations is supposed to be the swath of customers who will willfully boycott products in response. Continuing to purchase the corporation's products serves only to reinforce any behavior the it may be involved in.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[smash]

the content proves that the hack took place. without that evidence, sony would just deny, cover up and continue on with their insecure ways.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[sortadan]

I think we already have the answer to that... the giveaway is the mute button on the Lulz website -> "Volume increased by 100%!"

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Labcoat Samurai]

And yet, to my knowledge, no one has posted any information on customers from the other major Sony hacks, and we know about them. If nothing else, they could have claimed to have performed the hack and that they have the proof and then only expose any of it *if* Sony denied it, which they presumably wouldn't do, since it's just going to make them look even worse once the intrusion is proven.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[brainzach]

It's more like exposing a building for poor fire safety by burning it down

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Labcoat Samurai]

With the tenants inside, no less! :)

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

Then again, terrorists demands are fundamentally ineffective against a nation ruled by law. Too bad that in the matters of war and conflict some nations lose their democratic character and lawful standing even if they had them at the beginning.

Anonymous would probably be appeased with social behavior our mothers and kindergarten teachers hopefully teach before elementary school. In the base for all real authority lays responsibility, which is what we require for those who build and maintain our worlds, virtual or real. Anonymous clearly requires that from the authorities, just like a responsible and active citizen would require from his or hers government. And for this, some people in the Nato think they should be "persecuted"..

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[flimflammer]

I don't see where the extortion comes from, unless someone involved in any of the hacking actually said they had to apologize. I think what the GP was suggesting would be if Sony, on their own, came out and apologized for being so negligent. Of course that will never happen.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[flowwolf]

This is a ridiculous justification. The actions taken are clearly an attack on the customers of sony and it's clear that these kids running this "security company" are only in it for the lulz. A name says alot. There is no higher motive behind these attacks. They are being very reckless about how this data was released and don't know anything regarding responsible disclosure. Its easy enough to prove you have the data with enough of a mask over it so that it's unusable. If they simply showed the first and last letter of every password that would be enough to prove it. They didn't do this.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope... hackers have just one moto: "Don't Fuck With Us"

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[PopeRatzo]

I certainly wouldn't hold Sony to a promise that was extorted from them.

But it would still be a nice gesture on their part, dicks that they are.

It still would not change my unwillingness to ever purchase another Sony product, though. I cannot say that I am not experiencing some measure of schadenfreude at Sony's misfortune.

It is wrong of course, what Lulzboat is doing. Comedic, but wrong. Karmacly satisfying, but wrong. I would discourage them in the strongest terms from continuing to kick the shit out of one of the biggest transnational corporations in the world and making said transnational corporations look like a bunch of arrogant, incompetent nincompoops. So knock it off misters, or somebody's gonna cry. Don't make me get up.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[peragrin]

Well those customers are now less likely to buy or use Sony products again.

Most will go back but with each attack Sony will lose customers.

As for responsible disclosers there is no such thing. If you think your the only one who has comprised data then you are a fool. For all you know this is the 5th such attack and since it is the first to disclose it they are responsible. Companies will cover up any such breach as long as it isn't disclosed.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Labcoat Samurai]

Which still does not confer responsibility. Buying a Sony product should not be taken as an endorsement of everything they do any more than boycotting Sony should send the message that you hate Playstation 3 exclusives (you certainly won't be playing them). Sony is a big company with a lot of activities, and not all of them are objectionable.

If we're really going to fall back on the invisible hand, then the conclusion is not that consumers are responsible for evil, but rather that Sony does more good than evil. Or that people are more evil than good (which I don't believe). Because ultimately the invisible hand assumes that, in aggregate, people will make the right choice and bad behavior will be selected out. So either the theory is flawed and thus not a good basis for determining responsibility, or people are evil and I guess they did deserve to have their personal details shared.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

No, karmacly satisfying would be publishing account information for Sony execs, not average users who signed up for accounts to ask questions from support, register warranties, etc. "Why do you put such faith in a company that allows itself to become open to these simple attacks? This is disgraceful and insecure,” the group said. “They were asking for it.” No, they technically weren't. I don't recall Sony saying, "Hey, you know what we need to round out the week? Someone should compromise all of our user accounts." More specifically, the users weren't asking for it. "Our goal here is not to come across as master hackers" - that's good, because what they actually came across as are a bunch of douche bags.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if you realize sony makes more than just video games and video game consoles.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[flowwolf]

You aren't getting it. You're blinded by biast. Responsible disclosure would've been releasing just enough of the password to prove they had and not given away 1000's of innocent people's security information. They did not do this. They released 1000's of innocent people's security information.

"Lulz Security" Is not acting from some moral higher ground here. Do not try and pretend they are.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably. Their intransigence about violating their users' trust is why I have been boycotting Sony since the CD root-kit fiasco.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[arth1]

I think what the GP was suggesting would be if Sony, on their own, came out and apologized for being so negligent. Of course that will never happen.

It wouldn't be enough. At this point, I would want Howard Stringer fired (not allowed to resign, but actually fired) before I would consider buying Sony again.

And this from someone who at present has:
1 Sony HD TV
1 Sony high-end Receiver
1 Sony low-end Receiver/DVD combo
1 Sony BD player
1 Sony LocationFree
3 Sony Laptops
1 Sony PDA
1 Sony PSP
1 Sony CD Walkman
and lots of less expensive Sony stuff.
This revenue stream has now stopped, and yes, it will take Stringer's head on a platter before I would consider Sony again, or stop telling friends and family to avoid Sony like the plague. Else, they;re not taking this seriously, and then I will reciprocate that and not take Sony seriously.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

"...not average users who signed up for accounts to ask questions from support, register warranties, etc."
They are very bad boys, but as long as nobody does some mass mailing to all these user email addresses, saying something like:

"We are sorry that you bought our product(s).
They are crappy, rigged with bugs, our support is terrible, our security non-existent.
We strongly suggest that you never buy any product from us ever again.

Hoping to never hear from you again.
Your Sony Management.
Adieu"

I guess it's OK.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[MimeticLie]

Sony is a big company with a lot of activities, and not all of them are objectionable.

Given their poor hardware quality, rootkits, data breaches, exploding batteries, inventing fake movie critics, removing advertised features, obnoxious viral marketing, spying on environmental activists, being seen as one of the two worst companies in America, and whatever else I couldn't think of off the top of my head, I'd say "most" rather than "not all".

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Osgeld]

Ok how do you suggest people who are fed up with Sony act? To me its easy cause I don't know where and when any one of Sony's projects will jump up and be a frigging news headline, wasting my time, money, or worse. End result? I just don't buy the cursed things.

Recorded media is a bit more tricky of course, but fortunately I am getting to the age where current pop does not catch my attention as much, and I mostly rent dvd's

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[grapeape]

Because stuff like this is always spun as the innocent corporation vs the evil hackers...most television and online news sources wont even mention the plain text passwords, lack of security updates, etc....it will just be presented as sony did nothing wrong and the bad guys keep trying to keep you from being able to play your playstation.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[pipatron]

So hm. This argumentation also means that if you mess with a company you're not actually messing with the company but with its stockholders and all its employees. After all, it's going to hurt them, and they didn't ask for it, but are just innocent bystanders. Any corporation would be free to continue their asshattery because as soon as a group of people retaliate, there are other people getting hurt.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[adamofgreyskull]

Same reason governments don't negotiate with terrorists (or at least not in public)

"That's a bingo!" (Not to mention funding some "terrorists".) Sony is no stranger to that game either, having previously offered a plum job to a hacker, who, as it happens, promptly turned them down because of their treatment of a fellow hacker.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[mogness]

In all honestly, Sony hasn't done anything to me personally that warrants a boycott. I know it's cool and all to bash Sony here at Slashdot and I'm not saying that some people don't have a right to be pissed because I know Sony's done some pretty shifty things. For me though, I own a PS3 and the PSN being down for a month with no indication to the user of when it would be back up is the *only* thing that even made me a little annoyed. And let's face it, they got hacked. I mean, they're responsible for not having a secure system but I still don't really blame Sony per-se. Anyone can get hacked. They didn't have any of my personal information except for the hotmail address I use as a spam box, so that's a non-issue. What else has there been? The removal of the linux option from the PS3. Yea so. I wasn't using it anyway. Not affecting me. That rootkit-on-cd thing that everyone is always talking about. I never got hit with that either. So. I'm probably a typical Sony consumer and all of this nonsense hasn't touched me. There's no reason for anyone in my position to consider a boycott.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[asdf7890]

I certainly wouldn't hold Sony to a promise that was extorted from them.

Personally I can't say I'd have any expectation of them keeping promises that they make without extortion or other threats. But I'm a cynic like that (about most commercial entities but some, including Sony, in particular).

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[sjames]

And if you mess with the gas bill, it'll be no pickled beets for 2 months!

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[aeoo]

Forget about shoulds and look at reality. I'm talking about responsibility and how it works.

For example, I think that the water should be dry, and when I step into it, I am not responsible for getting wet on the account of my "should" thinking. Does it work like that in reality? No, it does not.

Ask yourself: can customer behavior patterns influence the direction of Sony as a corporation? For example, can a boycott influence Sony's attitude at the executive levels? I think the answer is that a real boycott does have such an ability. So to the extent customers have the ability to influence corporate behaviors, the customers become responsible for exercising that ability with due diligence.

At the same time, does Sony need to wait to get boycotted in order to improve their behavior? Of course not. What does this mean? It means Sony holds a primary proximate responsibility for their own behaviors. Sony executives have more influence over what Sony does than do all the Sony customers put together. At the same time, the amount of influence the Sony customers have is not zero.

So this is a correct and balanced way to understand responsibility. Responsibility is always commensurate with the power you have to influence something. The more power, the more responsibility you have. And our or your power can get as low as epsilon, but never absolute 0. So we always have some responsibility for everything, however tiny it may be.

So it's not "all like this" or "all like that." The reality is somewhere between what you're talking about and what your opponent is talking about. I would say Sony has about 70% responsibility to govern its own behaviors in a moral way and all the customers put together have about 30%, roughly. You can even see it as a 50/50 split, but you have to remember that the customer side of the 50 is shared out among all the customers, while the Sony side is concentrated in the hands of the very few powerful executives.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[westlake]

Strictly speaking in a free market sense, paying for Sony products does make you partially responsible. Why, you ask? ... Continuing to purchase the corporation's products serves only to reinforce any behavior the it may be involved in.

70 million PSN accounts.

17 million PlayStation Home social networking accounts. 8 million MOVE controllers.

Taking your reasoning to its logical conclusion puts the geek at war with over 50 million middle-class households. That is not going to end well.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[kenshin33]

What you;re advocating here is some king of skinner behaviorism. ppl are not as dumb! they need information.
So the theory is good (and I'm considered a leftist) .. there need to be a perfect flow of information b/c ppl tend to ingest it before making decision. which in most markets (all of them?) is a "not" met condition !

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem here is that there is a huge "collateral damage" on the part of the users. I think these hacks probably hurt the users more than it hurts Sony. If you're trying to hurt Sony, you're not doing your cause favors by exposing user accounts like that.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Jeff DeMaagd]

There has to be better ways to prove the hack. Why not find ways to get and post source code and assets for a game? That doesn't hurt any user accounts or their privacy.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Labcoat Samurai]

Presumably if you wanted the message to be clear, you'd have to send a letter or email or sign a petition. But I don't think consumers have an obligation to send a clear message. It is the company's responsibility to interpret their desires from their natural activities, and it is the responsibility of regulating bodies to make sure that the companies don't cross the line (whatever or wherever that may be). The responsibility of consumers is in their votes for public office, I think.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[kenshin33]

They are ass hats, so what? catch them and prosecute them !
stating that fact neither makes make sony's position more conformable nor excuses their actions.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[similar_name]

I just want to be sure I understand your point. Unless something personally affects you you don't care? Most people feel this way? That does explain a lot about the world.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Labcoat Samurai]

You present your post as though it is fact rather than opinion. I do not think that having power or influence necessarily confers responsibility, so I fundamentally disagree with your premise. I have more power to personally stop street crime in my area with my fists than I do to alter Sony's activity by voting with my dollar. By your reasoning, I have more responsibility to be a vigilante crime fighter than I do to boycott Sony.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[TheCount22]

Nope I don't think so. But giving me back the Other OS feature would make me happy

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[TheCount22]

I am with you.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[TheCount22]

You seem like a guy who would ignore the existence of concentration camps simply because it doesn't affect you. You are part of the problem.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[shutdown -p now]

If the point of the hack is just to embarass Sony, they don't need to post customer information on their website.

True, but posting customer information publicly is an easy way to attract immediate attention and grab headlines (and therefore cause more embarrassment). And if the people doing this don't care about the customers, well...

Anyway, these guys, judging by their name, are doing it purely "for lulz", not for the sake of some crusade. I don't think they care much about who gets hurt along the way.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

...publishing the names and addresses...

difficult analogy to wrap one's head around, since you don't sell punches & no one person has 'about a million' wives. It's more like the truck carrying all the warranty cards dropped them off at the wrong house.

Also, this is a different service than PSN. Sony thinks quality-of-service is a marketing term, not an actual policy.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[man_the_king]

Ah so you guys (similar_name and TheCount22) take issue with him not caring about something that didn't affect him personally - yet you were okay and did not take issue with the hundreds of /. users who DID NOT CARE about the millions of PSN users and were jubilantly cheering the PSN hack - precisely because they were not affected. And wanted too much for Sony to fail, even if that was the expense of millions of people.

Hypocrisy - look it up.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

If the point of the hack is just to embarass Sony, they don't need to post customer information on their website. That is potentially hurting real people who are not responsible for Sony's activities.

I don't think it's to embarass Sony, in that case they could have easily hidden most of the information with a couple "juicy" ones left complete save for (part of) the password. I think this is to add a sense of urgency with the public. If nothing of substance was revealed, Sony would get away with a "woops. our bad. sorry!" and that would be it as "there was no harm done". Now the harm is done. The perpetrators are LulzSec, but Sony isn't an innocent bystander either, so expect questions being asked in the parliaments of the countries affected.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[poity]

There lies a deep contradiction in Anonymous wanting a world of goodwill and responsibility in one facet as you claim, yet clamoring for reckless lulz in another. When you can seamlessly fall from one justification to another, any action can be excused. The headless nature of the beast makes its intentions impossible to pin down, and therefore impossible to trust.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[cavreader]

That comparison is stupid. He doesn't really care one way or another about Sony because it would not effect him personally. However, you don't have to be in a concentration camp for it to effect you personally. It's called individual choice and it can vary widely.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[causality]

Ah so you guys (similar_name and TheCount22) take issue with him not caring about something that didn't affect him personally - yet you were okay and did not take issue with the hundreds of /. users who DID NOT CARE about the millions of PSN users and were jubilantly cheering the PSN hack - precisely because they were not affected. And wanted too much for Sony to fail, even if that was the expense of millions of people.

Hypocrisy - look it up.

There's no hypocrisy there because it's not really injustice. More generally, not everything unfortunate is an instance of injustice. Not everything preventable is an instance of injustice.

Corporations are like the political status quo. It exists the way that it is until people are actually prepared to do things differently. Sony can conduct its business practices because customers continue to reward it with money. By making sure there are no financial repercussions attached to undesirable business practices, those customers are at least as responsible for the corporate culture at Sony as its management team. You could even argue that management is merely giving the customers what they want.

The only reason why Sony has millions of customers who worry about this hack is because they continued to patronize Sony so long as Sony's faults didn't personally make them suffer. Finally, Sony's faults make them suffer. Now some of them start to get the idea that it's not so easy to overlook when it happens to them personally. They may start to think that other complaints they have heard suddenly have merit. Cause, meet Effect.

It's too bad the mainstream level of awareness is so thick-headed; it is not sharp and agile and independent. It requires some kind of charismatic leader to honestly explain these things; the people who could pull that off make more money by doing the opposite. Masses of people take too long to figure out that what they're supporting is not acting in their interests. It's a shame they often insist on learning this the hard way after ignoring many warning signs.

Here's the part that even those with the very best of intentions may not understand: as crazy as it is, they are choosing this and it is not my place to tell them how they should choose or what lesson they should need to learn. They are getting what they are choosing and that's why there is no injustice. If that is to change, they would need less insulation between their decisions and the consequences they experience, including less misguided sympathy.

They are not victims because victims don't get to choose. What they're really missing is a sense of personal responsibility and with it, an understanding of cause and effect that doesn't come from pointing fingers or playing blame games.

Whether or not some Slashdotter's personal feelings include delight in the notion of Sony failing is a petty concern. It can distract you from a deeper appreciation of the issue.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

The news of lax security on Sony's websites and services makes their customers angry. Where do you think they will funnel their anger to? A bunch of script kiddies? Nah. They'll be angry on their service provider not being able to defend their sensitive data against these script kiddies.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[phantomfive]

It is wrong of course, what Lulzboat is doing. Comedic, but wrong. Karmacly satisfying, but wrong. I would discourage them in the strongest terms from continuing to kick the shit out of one of the biggest transnational corporations in the world and making said transnational corporations look like a bunch of arrogant, incompetent nincompoops. So knock it off misters, or somebody's gonna cry. Don't make me get up.

Wow, it's almost as if you're being sarcastically insincere.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Evtim]

No, it explains a lot about the present culture of the world, especially USA and the the rest of the western world. Someone posted it already in another discussion, but.. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w] Zeitgeist: Moving Forward.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

But if you stop purchasing their products, they'll just sue you for something.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[interkin3tic]

1 Sony CD Walkman and lots of less expensive Sony stuff.

Wait... what's less expensive than a Sony CD Walkman? A broken Sony CD walkman? A Sony minidisc player? A year's subscription to PSN?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

And what exactly has Sony done that's so wrong? I mean, other than not protect their servers from these no talent thugs that are using textbook attacks to break in?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, for this fantasy to work, their has to be full disclosure by the companies (there isn't) and the buyers have to be aware of this information (many aren't). Nice theory, though.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

If these "no talent thugs" are using "textbook attacks" and getting away with this kind of information, just imagine what the sophisticated thugs are getting away with!

Of course, the sophisticated thugs are partially responsible for the management of the company, but you know what I meant.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not what the AC is saying at all. There's s a world of difference between not posting the the user-names and passwords of Sony consumers and letting a company off the hook because you might hurt the shareholders. Sony consumers are not responsible for what the Sony Corporation does whereas the stockholders and employees have influence (however small) in how Sony behaves. And no, I will not buy the "vote/voiceyouropinion with dollars" argument in this instance. If I buy a Sony television, am I responsible for everything the Sony television section does? Of course not.

The posting of consumer usernames and passwords amounts to an attempt at good ol' identity theft, regardless of what kind of vigilante rhetoric this hacker group hides behind.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Gryle]

The GP didn't claim Sony was some shining beacon of goodness. In fact, I've yet to see someone on /. claim Sony is innocent. It is perfectly acceptable for both Sony and the hacking group to be ass-hats. Heck, criminals have fight amongst themselves. Ever heard of gang wars?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't hold sony to a promise they made of their own free will either, for what it's worth.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[walternate]

So hm. This argumentation also means that if you mess with a company you're not actually messing with the company but with its stockholders and all its employees. After all, it's going to hurt them, and they didn't ask for it, but are just innocent bystanders. Any corporation would be free to continue their asshattery because as soon as a group of people retaliate, there are other people getting hurt.

The thing about vigilante justice though is that not everybody agrees with your view on who deserves it. Some could claim Apple deserved it, and decide to out personal and credit card info of every Apple user. Some could claim abortion clinics deserved it.. etc. Can get really messy, and I suspect people supporting it in instances they agree with, could be very morally outraged about people doing such things if it hits closer to home.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

How has slashdot managed to get into its head that Sony's behaviour is the reason for it being targeted? Have the various hacker groups unanimously claimed it to be so? (Serious question there; not rhetorical.)

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine they're too busy breaking into the Pentagon for the nth time.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[ianare]

This is a very similar argument to the one Bin Laden used to (partly) justify the 9/11 attacks, and other attacks on civilians. It goes something like this : because America is a democracy, its citizens have a direct responsibility for the actions their government takes, and attacks on civilians are justified as retaliation for years of American imperialism and belligerence.

It's true that the US government has acted aggressively towards Muslim countries, and that its policies in many parts of the Muslim world are viewed as neo-colonist. It's also true that US citizens elect their government officials. It does not, however, justify terrorist attacks, and the people that have been killed or injured in these attacks are certainly victims, for the simple reason that the mass murder of civilians can NEVER be justified, for any reason. I think we can all agree on this ?

So Sony has acted in ways which are anti-consumer, and this for years without most of their customers knowing or caring. Now Sony gets hacked and millions of their customer's details are stolen and exposed, and this is somehow the customers' fault for having chosen Sony ? Sony's customers are simply victims caught in the crossfire of two opposing, and equally immoral groups.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

real people who are not responsible for Sony's activities. And no, paying for a Sony product does not make you responsible for their activities

When it comes to companies like Sony, who have a long history of customer abuse, you cannot absolve their customer of all responsibility. As the other reply said: they are funding Sony and are ignorant to their past behaviour.

More importantly, nobody would believe some anonymous Internet when they claim to have hacked a major corporation without irrefutable, media-attention grabbing proof. Everything else wouldn't be worth mentioning anywhere but fringe Internet sites.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

> That's like exposing a wife beater by publishing the names and addresses of all his past wives. ...who didn't go to the police and are therefore partly responsible for what happened to their successors.

Yes. Yes it is. Good analogy.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[kenshin33]

and I perfectly agree with that !

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[DrXym]

Sony should apologise (and have apologised) for lax security. They shouldn't need to apologise that a bunch of adolescents choose to make them the hack du jour. Any company the size of Sony would suffer the same problems if people were hammering on them and their subsiduaries. The assholes doing this will tire of hacking peripheral marketing websites and will move on, but hopefully not before a few of them get caught and thrown in the clink for it.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[unapersson]

The "rootkit-on-cd" thing just another broken DRM implementation designed to run on Windows. I'd like to be surprised at the naivety of those who boycott Sony over that while quite happily running Windows, but I can't say I am. People are quite happily voting with their feet in favour of DRM by buying Windows, a system designed to be friendly to DRM from the ground up, so aren't they pretty much getting what they've asked for?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[RockDoctor]

Wait... what's less expensive than a Sony CD Walkman?
[SNIP]
A year's subscription to PSN?

Not if their swill-bucket-stick-rattlers (an Orwellian neologism for "advertising people") have been doing their job properly. Even a pretty minimal service - â10/month or $10 or £10 ; Money Unit * 10 - would bring in â120/year to the SonyMegaCorp coffers. Which is a lot more than the price of a broken CD player.

So, sack Sony's swill-bucket-stick-rattlers. They'll probably thank you for it, because they'll be suffering badly at the moment. You might as well sack the rest of the staff too, though some of them are innocent. The brand is hopelessly damaged now (as it has been for the best part of a decade). The innocent, competent ones will probably be able to get employment elsewhere. Sweeping up shit in public cess pits, being test invaginations at the condom factory, whatever.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[mogness]

I think you're stretching a little bit, comparing someone boycotting Sony products with someone ignoring the existence of concentration camps. I'd love to see you explain how those two things are even remotely alike.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[RockDoctor]

I certainly wouldn't hold Sony to a promise that was extorted from them.

In the general case I'd agree with you (and the law agrees with you, at least in this country). However, in this specific case, if I had a queue of limousines parked up the road, senior Sony management debunking and making their way to my front door to beg my forgiveness for their actions and promising to commit seppuku in my front garden if I didn't forgive them ... I'd put several besides the trees and a few more by the berry-bushes, which could do with a blood meal. Then I'd have to check on the local waste disposal arrangements. Perhaps I could redirect them to throw themselves directly into the cramtorium (Freudian spelling mistake there!) furnace?

Eventually there would have to be a stop. But since all the people who die (culling from the top down) would largely be Golgafrincham B-Ark designates anyway, it can't hurt to go a long way.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[mr_gorkajuice]

You honestly think that pretending you didn't see your neighbour getting mugged is more acceptable than failing to boycott Sony?
Keep in mind that your potential power in both cases is likely zero. Given that you're a slashdot poster, most street criminals would likely faceroll you. As such, your responsibility in both cases is close to zero.
But let's just pretend your 200 pounds of muscle with martial arts training, who doesn't afraid of anything...

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[mogness]

Sorry but I think you guys are just really out of control with this Sony stuff. How do you take a statement like "I don't care that Sony is a shitty retailer, it doesn't affect me" and blow it out to "I don't care about anything going on in the world." I care a lot about things that are going on in the world, but what has Sony really done that warrants this kind of behavior? Are they dumping toxic chemicals? Causing global warming? Killing babies?
Oh, they may have accidentally released your e-mail address and a hashed password.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

...so... you never gave Sony your credit card number for anything? Never gave them ANY personal information? Well then mate, you're a lucky cuss. MILLIONS were fucked over during the downright criminal disregard for security that Sony has show over the last several years. I'm waiting for the lawsuit(s) and/or the class action suits.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Stone2065]

You're missing the point... if the hacks cause Sony to lose customers because of the hacks, then THAT is what hurts Sony. I know I gave up on Sony (for the most part, I got a DVD player for my brother a couple of years ago, and HE was a Sony fan, so that's what he got for his present) years ago personally, right after the rootkit fiasco.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[X.25]

I wonder if they realize the only people they really hurt by doing this is the average gamer who just wants to play a video game and doesn't give a crap about "jailbreaking" their PS3.

Ah, right.

So, because what Sony is doing does not affect 'average gamer' but only small group of people, then it is okay?

I see.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[k2r]

> Are they dumping toxic chemicals?

They are dumping toxic laws and precedences into judicial systems all over the world.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[smash]

Because they didn't hack to the extent of getting their hands on source code. This was a simple SQL table dump via SQL injection exploit. The only way to prove it was to post the info they shouldn't have had access to - or simply post instructions for anyone else to do it themselves.

At the end of the day, sony was leaving unencrypted customer info on a system connected to the internet via web front end exploitable via simple SQL injection attack (that most of the internet secured against many years ago). Are the hackers ass-hats for disclosing the info in an uncensured form? Maybe, but that doesn't mean sony are any less guilty of GROSS NEGLIGENCE when it comes to the security of their customer information.

If sony themselves can't be arsed protecting this information by following BASIC WEB SECURITY PRACTICE, why should the hacker bother to?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Vanderhoth]

I hate to support Bin Laden here, but he wasn't stupid. I like the fact that you're able to associate the parent with a hated terroist so you can make his point less relevant. I still agree that if you're responsible for supporting an irresponsible entity then your just as responsible for the actions of that entity as it is. The attacks on 9/11 were tragic and we all wish it never happens, but it seems to me the terrorist somewhat reached their objective. As it is now you can't fly with out being harassed; so much for freedoms.

Full disclosure, I do own a PS3. I was, and am currently, affected by the Other OS removal and the loss of personal data. I am responsible for it because I was also affected by the CD rootkit fiasco, but I didn't learn my lesson and I thought Sony was trying to turn over a new leaf. However, I have learned my lesson and I'm done with Sony.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

You present your post as though it is fact rather than opinion.

It is fact.

The (second) fact that you wish to portray it as opinion in order to avoid responsibility on your own behalf is your choice and yours alone, albeit a choice made by many. Unfortunately.

Ask yourself what would happen to street crime if everyone living on that street actually took responsibility and acted together in order to stop every crime on the street in question as soon as they saw it. Yes, being first is hard, and most likely very dangerous. Doesn't change the fact one bit, that it is a deliberate choice not to take responsibility. Deal with it.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Cederic]

But let's just pretend your 200 pounds of muscle with martial arts training, who doesn't afraid of anything...

Ironically, I am. Not sure that my extensive prowess with medieval ranged weaponry is going to be much help in a street brawl, or indeed that my stunning leg musculature is going to help me take a punch to the face.

Still, I'd step in if I saw someone being mugged. Because even if I don't win, I'll make sure the other guy loses, and if the original victim helps out, we've got a decent chance. Hell, most of the time the offender's going to leg it - he doesn't want a fair fight, and he doesn't know I have a glass jaw..

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

Then this should be applied to virtually every corporation in existence today!
All of them are interested in the profits and rarely for the people and customers.

So, you are chosing to stop buying Sony products? Ever? Great!
What about the food you eat?
Or the clothes you wear?
Or the cars people drive?
Or they places they live in?

There have been stories throughout history of corruption and abuse, from corporations in virtually every type of goods and services.

What about the Politicians that run the countries? Many people feel most of them are corrupt, or fail to properly serve the people they represent?
Why not boycott all of them?

What about the power you use to run the computers you use? Or the ISP's, especially Telco's and cable companies. Plenty of scandals there and poor treatment of their customers and their best interests.

In fact, to make sure you are not supporting any of the bad guys, you may have to give up almost everything in life, that you did not create or produce yourself.

So, when do you start?

Even if 1 person would do some or all of this, you will never convince the public at large to participate. Never going to happen.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Aladrin]

Exactly how? Giving us a few games that we already own and membership in a service that we already pay for (or don't want) is not a promise of any kind. It's an apology.

They have not said what they are apologizing for (I assume it's for being down) and they haven't promised not to screw over their customers with rootkits, not to take away value from the products we already paid for, or not to leave their servers in a hackable state.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[mcgrew]

Neither the stockholders nor the employees are innocent bystanders. Anyone who didn't unload Sony stock after XCP is begging to lose their investment, and the employees implemented the evil policies. The stockholders and employees ARE Sony and deserve whatever misfortune befalls them for Sony's foul deeds. Nobody who buys Sony should expect to not be victimized by Sony. I have no sympathy for Sony stockholders, Sony employees, or Sony customers at all.

Evil begets evil. Buy evil, expect evil.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Grygus]

I find this argument specious. I don't think that stockholders, being owners of the company, and employees, who actually carry out whatever policies are being protested, could be said to be innocents, since they are directly profiting from whatever malfeasance is being opposed. Customers are, presumably, the very people who are doing the protesting, though; it seems to me that the hackers are punishing people who are/should be on their side.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

Karmacly satisfying, but wrong.

Sorry to be a bit of a Nazi, but the term in Karmically.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Grygus]

I wonder whether you realize that every company with an online presence is open to this sort of attack. No online system is completely secure. Since the hackers aren't being ethical with their information, I see no reason to assume that any malfeasance on Sony's part was particularly responsible; I think it's just as likely that they knew this would be a popular target and that the backlash of their peers would be low to nonexistent. A lot of people seem anxious to brand LulzSec as heroes, and maybe they are, but they are acting suspiciously like common vandals.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[cpu6502]

>>>In all honestly, Sony hasn't done anything to me personally that warrants a boycott

"First they came for the [CD Buyers with rootkits] but I didn't care, because it wasn't affecting me.
"Then they came for the [Linux PS3 Owners] but I didn't care, because it wasn't affecting me.
"Next they came for the [PSN customers by losing their credit information in public] but I didn't care, because it wasn't affecting me....."

Then they came for me by turning-off my PS3 because I played a downloaded CD-R on it.
- And nobody cared about me either, because it's a self-centered narcisstic world.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[smelch]

No they aren't, that would be politicians and voters. Hack them.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[cpu6502]

>>>what has Sony really done that warrants this kind of behavior? Are they dumping toxic chemicals? Causing global warming? Killing babies?

Nothing that extreme, but they are still violating individual rights:
- Selling PS3s with "other OS" capability, and then turning it off. AKA bait-and-switch aka false advertising. Also illegal in Europe (where customers can demand refunds)
- Installing software from Music CD that killed customer's computers (made them unbootable)
- Bricked PS3s that were modded to play emulators (like SNES or Atari-Stella)
- Sued people for Millions of dollars, because they downloaded 5 songs.
- Prosecuted a man who posted how to open-up your PS3 and mod it to play HD DVDs (and other stuff)
- Used extradition to remove a customer from Europe to US, so they could sentence the customer to 20 years for hacking his console.

NOW do you understand why /.'rs hate Sony?
And why we boycott them?
Educate yourself about these corporations, and the evils they commit, rather than just blindly buying everything.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[cpu6502]

It's definitely wrong to publish customers' records online. They should be erased immediately after being downloaded.

BUT I see it as morally correct to hack Sony, a corporation that is, in many respects, just as evil as RIAA or MPAA (hacking personal computers, charging grannies with million-dollar lawsuits, and bricking customers' $500 PS3s) The more damage we cause to Sony's managers, employees, and world reputation, the better it is for us. Maybe Sony can be driven out-of-business like Circuit Shitty was.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

That's like exposing a wife beater by publishing the names and addresses of all his past wives.

True, but in this case you got to kept in mind that all his wives could have easily find info to learn how bad of a jackass that Sony...oups sorry, how bad that wife beater is.

Those wives decided to go with this guy ignoring or not even looking for Sony's....oups, sorry again, for the wife beater's background.

So basically, while I feel bad for the wives, they are not completely blameless.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[smelch]

"First they came for the [CD Buyers with rootkits] but I didn't care, because it wasn't affecting me.
"Then they came for the [Linux PS3 Owners] but I didn't care, because it wasn't affecting me.
"Next they came for the [PSN customers by losing their credit information in public] but I didn't care, because it wasn't affecting me....."

Is it lost on everybody that these hacks are doing more damage to current Sony customers than the stuff "former" (supposedly) Sony customers are complaining Sony did to them? Yet the hackers are, somehow, hilarious and karmic while Sony is evil-stuffed evil covered in evil sprinkles? Oh, they lost people's credit card information it's of course their fault. It's not like even RSA is capable of being hacked just like every bank is capable of being robbed. A lot of companies just straight up lose that information instead of having it taken from them. But no, lets just all crowd around and cheer the gang rape because Sony shouldn't have been dressing that way.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[ianare]

My intention was not to make an ad hominem argument, sorry if it came out that way. Another example would be the ongoing Israeli blockade and past massive military operation in Gaza after Hamas was voted in. That collective punishment of civilians for the actions of their leaders is justified.

I was just pointing out that this is similar to the argument that the collective punishment of Sony's customers is justified because of Sony's past actions.

If anything, in a democratic society, the populace has more responsibility for their leader's actions than the customers of a multinational. And yet, I don't think anyone in the US would say that the 9/11 and other terrorist attacks against American civilians are justifiable, even if a good many will say that the actions of the US government have created much anger and desire for revenge in the Muslim world.

And as far as the terrorist reaching their objectives, they haven't. I mean, yeah, they killed a bunch of people, (though much less than die of, say measles per year) and slowed down the economy a bit, for a little while. But they did not cause an economic crisis (we had our own banks do it for them), nor did they prevent further attacks on Muslim lands. In fact the death and destruction they brought upon themselves, the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed, countries lying in ruins -- directly attributable to 9/11 -- have at least in part caused many of their former supporters, the young, educated and unemployed, to lead non-violent protests with the aim of establishing real democracy in the middle east. And not blowing themselves up for a religious dictatorship.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Legion303]

"it's clear that these kids running this 'security company' are only in it for the lulz."

It's becoming equally clear that whoever's in charge of securing Sony's shit is also only in it for the lulz.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[delinear]

I don't agree with their approach but I can absolutely see where they are coming from. It's not like Sony made one simple transgression and are being unduly punished for it. They've been treating their customers - often very loyal customers for whom Sony have always been the go-to brand - like dirt for at least the best part of the last decade. Most customers buy into the product unaware of this record, but plenty of people continue to buy their products even when they are aware. This encourages arrogance on the part of the company in that they see these huge - for the sake of balance we'll call them errors in judgement - and they still see massive profits. Lack of responsibility is still rewarded time and again, and that's cyclical, the more they can get away with it the more they'll do it, either because it's cheaper or the payoff is bigger. For a long time some kind of backlash has been due - it would be nice if this was the public taking an interest in the activities of their gadget suppliers and making informed choices for a change, but I can totally understand a small minority losing patience and trying to force the issue with more direct action.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[smelch]

Maybe we should just run to a nice little farm out in the middle of nowhere and start hurling exlposives all over the place, all the while over a huge speaker saying "We do not want to appear to be master grenadiers, we are just merely concerned you have chosen such an insecure piece of land to build your life on. Look how easy it was for this to happen!" Or start murdering people for eating fatty foods, they're asking for it! Better yet, lets all wage wars on companies because we don't like that other people volunteer to be a part of the lock-in and "screwing over" we are so righteously worried about. After all, We know better than you, and We are prepared to make your choices for you through force.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[delinear]

I guess the hope would be that users would think twice about buying from the company that exposed their data in the first place.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Vanderhoth]

Well said. I can agree with you here.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[delinear]

However, the degree to which the public tolerates their actions is influenced by their current aims. Remember, Sony ultimately won't care what Anonymous thinks, what they care about is what their average customer thinks. If Anonymous get the public on side, it could be very costly for Sony, meanwhile the company doesn't have to meet any of Anonymous' demands, it merely has to win back any lost confidence on the part of the customer. That's a hell of a lot different to your negotiating with terrorists example - Sony can effectively cut the "terrorists" out of the analogy by just not being dicks to the people trying to give them money hand over fist.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

Strictly speaking in a free market sense, criminals such as hackers, bank robbers, and jewel thieves are not a legitimate part of the market.

-fearsomepirate

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, sorry for the Godwin but GP saying not all Sony activites are objectionable is like saying not all Nazis were evil, some were just there to collect their pay cheques. I'm sorry but even the lowliest employee of the company has no reason not to have heard of a few of the above examples. If they choose to continue working there that's their choice but I'm not going to call them innocent bystanders unless they can show what have they done to challenge the way their company does business... By the way, you forgot the whole slew of garbage they've been responsible for as one of the labels behind RIAA.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[cheekyjohnson]

Hypocrisy - look it up.

Such a logically valid argument.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Thing 1]

See also their site, where you can download the ISO for free, and donate to them so they can make the next movie (Zeitgeist: Beyond the Pale). Thanks btw, I've seen the first two and didn't know there was a third. The torrent is fast.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[ATMAvatar]

I said nothing about how successful I thought a boycott would be. I merely brought it up to spark discussion amongst the exceedingly large number of libertarians around here.

To get any meaningful change through free market means would require that you first educate the buying public of the wrongdoing and then get them to care. That is certainly a tall order, and as you suggest, impossible under most circumstances.

The next alternative to customer action would be to try and initiate government regulatory action for misbehavior of corporations. I believe you will find that to be about as likely and effective as getting the public involved.

Lawsuits? First, in order to even participate in a lawsuit, you have to demonstrate that you have been personally injured by the act, so you would be barred from acting on any wrongdoing you know about which does not directly impact you. Then, you would have to have pockets deep enough to fight the lawyers Sony could throw back at you.

So, what is left?

Sadly, the legal avenues have been exhausted at this point. The next most likely way to impact Sony (or any corporate entity) is a meaningful way in the common era is exactly what occurred - cyber warfare.

That doesn't make it right. It also says nothing about the true motivations about the recent attacks on Sony. It's just as likely as not that the group or groups responsible for both attacks did it merely to be pests rather than trying to change the company or extract any kind of retribution for some actual act of wrongdoing.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

How can people know Sony's security sucked before all this hullabaloo?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

For WHAT, exactly? Boo hoo because Sony took away "Other OS" and made GeoHot look dumb? Talk about childish stupidity. It's not like Sony caused Fukushima to blow or caused a genocide somewhere. I find it funny that they leave Microsoft alone, who have committed more crimes against computing and the market than Sony ever will.

I still don't understand why 4-chan hasn't been raided and shut down. I'd like to see that "for the lulz."

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[delinear]

That's the thing, if you own the building, it's your responsibility to ensure you hire the right people to check that it meets the required safety standards. If you're relying on some guy from the street to test it for you, don't be surprised when he does so with the direct approach. There are many responsible ways Sony could have tested the safety of the data - leaving it to a bunch of unaccountable hackers is not one of them. Sure the hackers went overboard. That's what they do. That's why we have computer security and laws against hacking in the first place.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[delinear]

I do expect questions to be asked in parliament. It's just depressing that those questions will be along the lines of "How big a brown envelope are you going to slip us to make this disappear?"

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[AJH16]

"Yes they are, that would be politicians and Sony's lobbyists making them on Sony's behalf." Fixed that for you. (Also some of it is really them inventing their own unique ways of abusing consumers.) If Sony and other companies like them were not pushing for this kind of stuff, it wouldn't be happening. That said, Sony as a whole is a very large organization, so I tend to only ignore the parts of the organization that I find particularly bad at the time. I don't see any reason to alter my TV or optical drive buying habits when it's the PS3 or music group being a tool. Hurting the bottom line of a particular group for the behavior of that group is at least as effective if not more so than a blanket boycott (since it makes that group look bad within Sony) and it has a whole lot less impact on me than writing off a major technology manufacturer entirely.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[idontgno]

It's a prevalent attitude. Three words sum it up: "I got mine."

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

That average gamer is the one validating the actions of the company. He's like the voter who keeps the dictator in power. If the dictator then unfairly punishes some minority group, the voter has to take some of the responsibility. He's not the one giving the orders but he's enjoying his personal freedoms at the expense of someone else, he shouldn't be surprised if a bunch of those someone elses get together and treat him and the dictator he supports with similar distain.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Labcoat Samurai]

You honestly think that pretending you didn't see your neighbour getting mugged is more acceptable than failing to boycott Sony?

You honestly think that's a reasonable interpretation of what I said? If I see a crime, I'll report it, sure. If I stumble upon a crime I think I have a fair chance of preventing, I'll give it a try. I was talking about my responsibility to go patrol the streets at night and seek out evildoers. My power to do that is nonzero. Maybe not much above zero, but it *is* above zero. So power based reasoning suggests my *responsibility* to do so is also nonzero.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[LHorstman]

Did you read your links? Sony didn't make it past the round of 16 in the worst company in America contest. BP and Bank of America were the two worst,

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[RazorSharp]

It can distract you from a deeper appreciation of the issue.

Oh, yeah, because it's an issue that requires deep appreciation. . . /sarcasm

I understood the vitriolic emotion surrounding the Wikileaks issues. Those were matters of life and death, liberty and oppression. But these kids discredit themselves by prioritizing Sony above the many actually important causes that they could champion. "Oh no! Sony's a corporation of greedy asshats! We gotta show them!" Please. All these kids are doing is helping out Sony's competitors, other greedy asshats. They're also helping congress pass anti-internet freedom laws. But it's worth it, is it not, because Sony doesn't support Linux on PS3 anymore?

If anything, it just shows how fucking immature kids are these days. Instead of championing a cause that actually matters they go after their video game company for not being a shining beacon of capitalist integrity. Meanwhile, Microsoft is the beneficiary of all this nonsense. Way to show those evil companies, guys!

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[drinkypoo]

They can just post the middle digits of important numbers or stuff like that, they don't have to post the whole thing to prove anything. on the other hand, if they don't post the whole thing then the breach is less serious. They obviously want to do the maximum damage to Sony. And let's face it, a company is not just its employees, it is also its customers in a very real way since it cannot exist without them.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[RazorSharp]

The rootkit is an old issue and Sony didn't get away with it. The data breaches could happen to any corporation in the crosshairs of a large hacker group. The exploding batteries were completely overblown -- defective products happen, they took care of it. Inventing fake movie critics is funny and dishonest, but it doesn't make me think they deserve to be a target of hacker vigilantism. Removing of advertised features happens. No one used Linux on PS3 so they stopped supporting it. Big whoop. Obnoxious viral marketing? Uh oh, we're getting in some murky moral waters! Those 'environmental activists' are idiots who are willing to lie to get attention and don't give a damn about actual science (yeah, I clicked the link to see which organizations you were referring to).

Then there's the best link of all. "Seen as one of the worst two companies in America." I love that little tournament. How Apple outeviled Microsoft, who couldn't even make it out of the first round. AT&T outeviled Verizon even though one is no better than the other. Time Warner outeviled Facebook. But the greatest thing is that your claim is false: according to this highly scientific internet poll, BP and B of A are the two most evil corporations in America. Ticketmaster is beats Sony out, and B of A beats Ticketmaster out.

Of course, the truly evil companies in America aren't represented: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[drinkypoo]

It does not, however, justify terrorist attacks, and the people that have been killed or injured in these attacks are certainly victims, for the simple reason that the mass murder of civilians can NEVER be justified, for any reason. I think we can all agree on this ?

Who is "we"? I can agree that I wouldn't do it. Do I think it's unjustified? Our lifestyle kills people. It is based on murder. Even when it isn't, it's based on manslaughter. This is all utterly hypocritical while I sit here at my big fat dual-monitor desktop in my warm, well-lit home, but I think it's pretty clear that we in the western world are killers by abstraction. We permit it to continue, and indeed, when it starts to slip we scream bloody murder and clamor for more. And we get more... murder.

So Sony has acted in ways which are anti-consumer, and this for years without most of their customers knowing or caring. Now Sony gets hacked and millions of their customer's details are stolen and exposed, and this is somehow the customers' fault for having chosen Sony ?

You know, when you start bringing words like "fault" into the conversation it's a pathetically transparent attempt to manipulate mind states... just like when I say murder. So that's OK, but what you really want to ask is whether this is a direct result of the customer having chosen Sony. And of course, the answer is up for debate, but I say yes. Yes, the customer is at fault for giving money to assholes like Sony. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. They are helping fund awful, horrible behavior. It's like when someone knuckles under to a BSA audit. For heaven's sake, spend that money on a migration. It might hurt now, but the alternative is having a leering mobster leaning on you for protection money on a scheduled basis.

Sony's customers are simply victims caught in the crossfire of two opposing, and equally immoral groups.

Sony's customers are the foundation upon which the corporation rests. Without them it has no power. Don't make excuses for them; they chose to do business with an unethical entity. Nobody ever had no alternative to Sony, it's not like paying your taxes. Nobody is going to imprison you for failing to buy a Playstation 3.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[drinkypoo]

Anyway, these guys, judging by their name, are doing it purely "for lulz", not for the sake of some crusade. I don't think they care much about who gets hurt along the way.

If people stop giving Sony money, Sony will cease to exist. This action clearly serves as a deterrent to people giving Sony their financial information.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[arth1]

FWIW, I was affected by the PSN hack, and yet I cheer it.
Someone needs to stop Sony (and other megacorporations) now. The battle cannot end until one side is rendered helpless and capitulate, and yes, there will be civilian casuallies. Sometimes you, sometimes me.
But the war isn't about us; it's about those who come after us.
Do we want them to have a future where megacorps can tell them to bend over and take it, or one where the bigger you get, the more you have to serve the people?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

If you claim responsibility for something you have power over, you're responsible for it.
If you claim responsibility for something you have no power over, you're doomed.
If you claim no responsibility for something you have power over, you're a cold-hearted bastard.
If you claim no responsibility for something you have no power over, you're sane and reasonable.

If have power over someone and you assign them responsibility for something they have power over, you're delegating.
If have power over someone and you assign them responsibility for something they have no power over, you're an asshole boss.
If have no power over someone and you assign them responsibility for something they have power over, you're whining.
If have no power over someone and you assign them responsibility for something they have no power over, you're a fool.

If you have some power over someone and you assign them some responsibility for something they have some power over...
Welcome to politics.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[rilian4]

"First they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."
-attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller

Some time try standing up for the rights of someone other than yourself.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Yvanhoe]

I think they would stop if Sony took some simple steps : Lifts the legal restrictions they put on GeoHot, authorize the tinkering of their device, step back on the no-linux policy on PS3s. If they did that, they would stop being the primary targets and I bet hackers would focus instead on other patent trolls, wikileaks censors, ACTA lobbyists, DRM enforcers...

This is an interesting situation : they will attack the most asshat of the crowd, just don't be that one.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[arth1]

Wait... what's less expensive than a Sony CD Walkman? A broken Sony CD walkman? A Sony minidisc player? A year's subscription to PSN?

Sony CD/DVD burners and floppy drives, Memory Sticks, CDs, DVDs and UMDs, for example.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Risen888]

if you mess with a company you're not actually messing with the company but with its stockholders and all its employees.

What is a company besides stockholders and employees?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Risen888]

If the point of the hack is just to embarass Sony, they don't need to post customer information on their website

Of course they do. Otherwise this would get no press whatsoever. If you're gonna do something like this, you've gotta do it loud.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Risen888]

I do not think that having power or influence necessarily confers responsibility

I cannot imagine you rationalize that.

I have more power to personally stop street crime in my area with my fists than I do to alter Sony's activity by voting with my dollar. By your reasoning, I have more responsibility to be a vigilante crime fighter than I do to boycott Sony.

I would say that if you are in a situation where you can stop a crime being committed by means of physical violence, and the crime being committed is "worse" (for some value of "worse") than the violence you would inflict, yes, that is your moral responsibility. Neither more nor less responsibility than you have to boycott a company for their misdeeds.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[wolfemi1]

Of course. How do you think corporations got to be so powerful? You just make a public stock sale, have huge numbers of people buy into it (or at least everyone in government), so that EVERYONE has an interest in you continuing to make money. It makes it very easy to convince society that YOUR best interests are THEIR best interests, since when YOU make money, THEY make money.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Labcoat Samurai]

Of course they do. Otherwise this would get no press whatsoever.

Good point. Most people don't know that 77 million PSN accounts were hacked due to the lack of press attention that it received. Now if they had published that information on the web for anyone to see, maybe a story or two might have been written about it.

Snark aside, Sony has been in the news almost continuosly for the last two months for a series of hacks (not just the PSN one), and this is the first one I am aware of where personal details were publicly shared. It's not necessary. As another poster suggested, they don't care about the consumers. Look at their name. They're in it for "lulz"

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Labcoat Samurai]

I do not think that having power or influence necessarily confers responsibility

I cannot imagine you rationalize that.

I don't have to. The alternative leads to absurd conclusions.

I would say that if you are in a situation where you can stop a crime being committed by means of physical violence, and the crime being committed is "worse" (for some value of "worse") than the violence you would inflict, yes, that is your moral responsibility. Neither more nor less responsibility than you have to boycott a company for their misdeeds.

This one is debatable. So let's change the parameters of the situation so that it is less ambiguous. There is likely a crime being committed right now somewhere in a 10 mile radius of me (I do live in a big city). My ability to prevent this crime by leaving my apartment, looking for it, and then taking action to stop it is extremely small... but it is not zero. If power *alone* confers responsibility, then I have a moral responsibility to do exactly that.

In fact, my odds of preventing crimes by spending my free time actively being a crimefighter are greater than the difference I make on Sony's bottom line by not buying their products. By power-based reasoning, therefore, my responsibility to be a crime fighter is *greater* than my responsibility to avoid Sony products. Do you think I have a responsibility to be a crime fighter? If so, I think we're done here. If not, then you should also not think I have a responsibility to avoid buying Sony products.

That is, unless there is more to responsibility than power.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[spedrosa]

I think what the GP was suggesting would be if Sony, on their own, came out and apologized for being so negligent. Of course that will never happen.

It wouldn't be enough. At this point, I would want Howard Stringer fired (not allowed to resign, but actually fired) before I would consider buying Sony again.

And this from someone who at present has:
1 Sony PDA
1 Sony CD Walkman

PDA and Walkman? The 90's have called and want your comment back.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Risen888]

This one is debatable. So let's change the parameters of the situation so that it is less ambiguous. There is likely a crime being committed right now somewhere in a 10 mile radius of me (I do live in a big city). My ability to prevent this crime by leaving my apartment, looking for it, and then taking action to stop it is extremely small... but it is not zero. If power *alone* confers responsibility, then I have a moral responsibility to do exactly that.

I agree with what you're getting at here, but it's a poor analogy.

In fact, my odds of preventing crimes by spending my free time actively being a crimefighter are greater than the difference I make on Sony's bottom line by not buying their products.

This is where you lose me. This is obviously untrue. People buying Sony products is Sony's bottom line. If you buy your next set of headphones (or whatever) from Sennheiser (or whomever), you have affected Sony's bottom line in a miniscule but measurable way. You have much more direct power in this situation than in your above analogy.

To try and offer a counter-analogy: You are walking to the store, and you see a woman getting mugged at gunpoint. You are unarmed. You have no opportunity to stop the crime in progress, but the criminal runs right past you as he tries to make his escape. Three big guys are chasing him. Do you have a moral responsibility to trip the mugger? Or, to bring this back around, do you have a moral responsibility to affect the outcome of the situation in a miniscule but measurable way?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Labcoat Samurai]

I agree with what you're getting at here, but it's a poor analogy.

Well, it has one flaw, certainly, which is that it's open to the objection that crime-fighting puts me at risk.

Tell me if you think this is a better analogy:

I have the power to spend a large portion of my free time volunteering and doing charity work. This entails little or no risk to myself and would have a large positive impact on other people. Do you feel that I have a responsibility to sacrifice my free time to such an endeavor?

In fact, my odds of preventing crimes by spending my free time actively being a crimefighter are greater than the difference I make on Sony's bottom line by not buying their products.

This is where you lose me. This is obviously untrue. People buying Sony products is Sony's bottom line.

Yes, but my decision to buy a Sony product or not is a drop in the ocean. It is a measurable but tiny effect. You could similarly try to measure my chance of doing good as a crimefighter and estimate the effect there. I suspect that, every now and again, I could make a real difference in a real person's life, which is a much greater impact than Sony not getting money from me.

To try and offer a counter-analogy: You are walking to the store, and you see a woman getting mugged at gunpoint. You are unarmed. You have no opportunity to stop the crime in progress, but the criminal runs right past you as he tries to make his escape. Three big guys are chasing him. Do you have a moral responsibility to trip the mugger? Or, to bring this back around, do you have a moral responsibility to affect the outcome of the situation in a miniscule but measurable way?

I do not think you have a moral responsibility to do so, no. You probably *should* do so. It is the right and proper course of action as surely as the right thing to do when on fire is to stop, drop, and roll, but if the gunman escapes, you are not responsible for his actions or his escape. You did not behave optimally, but it was also not fair to expect you to behave optimally.

Maybe it would be different if you were an on duty policeman and you let him go, but that's because you have volunteered to take on that responsibility.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[MimeticLie]

Yes, I noticed that after I posted. I was actually looking for another Sony story on The Consumerist and that came up. Mea culpa. I stand by the rest of the links, however.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[marcosdumay]

Yeah, but the hackers know that it is a case of an evil corporation against evil hackers. Again, why would the hackers belive on such a promisse?

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

In all honestly, Sony hasn't done anything to me personally that warrants a boycott. I know it's cool and all to bash Sony here at Slashdot and I'm not saying that some people don't have a right to be pissed because I know Sony's done some pretty shifty things. For me though, I own a PS3 and the PSN being down for a month with no indication to the user of when it would be back up is the *only* thing that even made me a little annoyed. And let's face it, they got hacked. I mean, they're responsible for not having a secure system but I still don't really blame Sony per-se. Anyone can get hacked. They didn't have any of my personal information except for the hotmail address I use as a spam box, so that's a non-issue. What else has there been? The removal of the linux option from the PS3. Yea so. I wasn't using it anyway. Not affecting me. That rootkit-on-cd thing that everyone is always talking about. I never got hit with that either. So. I'm probably a typical Sony consumer and all of this nonsense hasn't touched me. There's no reason for anyone in my position to consider a boycott.

Much of your argument is based on recognizing shifty things Sony did and not caring because it didn't affect you. Perhaps instead of making the argument that 'it doesn't affect me so I don't care' you had made the argument that the pros of using Sony outweigh the cons for you it might have been perceived differently. I don't think you made any argument about the pros of using Sony you only negated the cons by saying it doesn't affect you. In other words you made a terrible argument and he was just pointing that out.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[similar_name]

Many of those posts already had replies. I don't always feel the need to repeat a thought that's already been stated. You won't find any post of mine supporting the hack so don't attribute anything to me that's conjecture. I don't think exposing consumer data to the public is right nor do I think hacking Sony to begin with is right. I took issue with a post that made the explicit argument that both admitted Sony was shifty and then excused it because it didn't affect them personally. I don't *always* take issue with implicit arguments. If you would like to point out a post that makes the explicit argument (like the one I replied to) that hacking consumer data is ok because it didn't affect the poster and there is not already a reply to it that points out what I did, I would be happy to make the same argument to them as well.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[kehren77]

That average gamer is the one validating the actions of the company. He's like the voter who keeps the dictator in power. If the dictator then unfairly punishes some minority group, the voter has to take some of the responsibility. He's not the one giving the orders but he's enjoying his personal freedoms at the expense of someone else, he shouldn't be surprised if a bunch of those someone elses get together and treat him and the dictator he supports with similar distain.

So then vote with your money by not buying a Sony product. If you don't want to abide by the rules of the amusement park, then don't buy a ticket. Don't burn the amusement park down.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[qubezz]

... Sony, a corporation that is, in many respects, just as evil as RIAA or MPAA

Remember, Sony is not just evil for the things Sony does - they are 1/4 of the RIAA and 1/6 of the MPAA. They hate you. They are your enemy.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[kehren77]

Ah, right.

So, because what Sony is doing does not affect 'average gamer' but only small group of people, then it is okay?

I see.

But you are okay with the small group releasing the names, logins, passwords, email addresses, and credit card numbers of the larger group as a way of trying to punish Sony?

If the small group has such great hacking skills, perhaps their time would be better spent hacking their own PS3s instead of attacking the larger group.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Risen888]

I have the power to spend a large portion of my free time volunteering and doing charity work. This entails little or no risk to myself and would have a large positive impact on other people. Do you feel that I have a responsibility to sacrifice my free time to such an endeavor?

I would say "It depends on a number of factors." But I feel like all these analogies are getting us further away from what we were talking about.

Yes, but my decision to buy a Sony product or not is a drop in the ocean. It is a measurable but tiny effect. You could similarly try to measure my chance of doing good as a crimefighter and estimate the effect there.

Indeed, no argument there. But a big (and thus far unaddressed) difference between those two things is that to not buy Sony products entails no risk, or even effort, on your part. All you have to do is not do something. That's easy. I don't do things all the time.

I do not think you have a moral responsibility to do so, no. You probably *should* do so. It is the right and proper course of action as surely as the right thing to do when on fire is to stop, drop, and roll, but if the gunman escapes, you are not responsible for his actions or his escape. You did not behave optimally, but it was also not fair to expect you to behave optimally.

Fair enough.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[flowwolf]

This is true. I could care less about sony though. They are a faceless corporation. Their customers however are my fellow men. This attack was a direct assault against them and hurts them more than it ever would hurt sony.

I guess anon's new prerogative is to hurt anyone who doesn't agree with them. Not just the perpetrators.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[flowwolf]

Nobody is excusing sony for their "actions" though that doesn't make any sense. What you probably mean instead is sony's INACTION in regards to security. What is happening in this thread however is people are excusing Anon's actions within this matter. Lulz security is obviously inspired by or directly part of anon, as we can tell by the title they gave them self. I'm pointing out that there is absolutely no excuse for disclosing this kind of sensitive user information. So what you ask? You sir, are also an asshat.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[causality]

Oh, yeah, because it's an issue that requires deep appreciation. . . /sarcasm

In your case, that remains to be seen.

"Oh no! Sony's a corporation of greedy asshats! We gotta show them!" Please. All these kids are doing is helping out Sony's competitors, other greedy asshats.

You say that as though one cannot live without a console and video games, or as though it's natural to value those things more than your ethical principles. I'm here to tell you, you can live your life without ever owning a video game console. If there is no console company that a customer with a conscience would want to do business with, then no console is not only a viable choice, it's the correct choice.

They're also helping congress pass anti-internet freedom laws.

What was done against Sony's networks was already illegal. You could have a death penalty for computer intrusion and all it would change is the legal jurisdiction from which the next attack on the next corporation originates. That's why securing your networks and deciding not to constantly piss off your customers are such good ideas.

But it's worth it, is it not, because Sony doesn't support Linux on PS3 anymore?

Do you think that focusing on the most petty, insignificant semi-related issue you can find is some kind of instant slam-dunk victory for yourself? It isn't. It only tells me that the first time you missed the big picture may have been a mistake, but now that I have personally pointed it out to you, your refusal to acknowledge it is your deliberate decision. The term for this is denial. The image for this is the proverbial ostrich that buries its head in the sand, thinking that will make anything go away.

It's not about their decision to renege on Linux support for the PS3. It's not about the rootkit fiasco (though if you or me tried that, we'd do time). It's about a long list of such things, all of them anti-customer, none of them sanctioned. It's about this being their standard business practice. It's about the fact that you can push people, and push them, and push them, and continue to push them some more, and for a good long while you can get away with that, but eventually they're going to push back. Only a fool is shocked and surprised when that finally starts to happen.

Whether you can stand it or not, there are some solid reasons why the events we are witnessing are unfolding. Like I said, it is simply cause-and-effect in action. By focusing your tunnel-vision on the effects only while ignoring the causes, you might satisfy some visceral emotional need to cry about how immature it is and pat yourself on the back for being such an adult. But this will not equip you to actually understand why this is happening, and the next time a corporation earns itself a backlash, you will be right back at square one, looking for someone to point your finger at.

If you really want to prevent these things in the future, that's simple enough. The next time a corporation infects many computers with a piece of malware, fire some members of its upper management and then send them to prison, just like what would happen to you if you did that. See, it's the lack of justice, or more accurately, the double-standard of justice that leads to these vigilante attacks. Get rid of that and you elminate the vigilantes. That's what I would personally like to see.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[causality]

It's true that the US government has acted aggressively towards Muslim countries, and that its policies in many parts of the Muslim world are viewed as neo-colonist. It's also true that US citizens elect their government officials. It does not, however, justify terrorist attacks, and the people that have been killed or injured in these attacks are certainly victims, for the simple reason that the mass murder of civilians can NEVER be justified, for any reason. I think we can all agree on this ?

I think you're looking at it too (for lack of a better word) personally.

Consider if you are on foot, walking through tall grass, in an area known for its high population of venomous snakes. You can argue that death by snake-venom is too high of a penalty for merely stepping on a snake, something that does not really injure the snake. You can say that the punishment does not fit the crime. The reality is, if you step on a venomous snake it is likely to bite you.

You can try reasoning with the snake about standards of justice and such but I don't think it will do you any good. The person who puts such concerns in their proper place and instead spends their energy learning to watch where they step will be safe. That person understands cause and effect and this understanding will safeguard them. The trick, then, is to realize when you are dealing with a snake, or a hornet's nest, or a powder keg. They are not the same as dealing with someone you can reason with.

The Middle East is a powder keg. It has been that way since long before the USA had an irresistable urge to overthrow its elected leaders and replace them with ruthless dictators. It has been that way since long before there was such a thing as the USA. Do I think the terrorists are justified? Absolutely not -- people like them almost make me ashamed to be a member of our species. Do I think our leaders throughout the last several decades were arrogant, unwise jackasses for not understanding the snake, hornet's nest, and powder keg they were repeatedly messing with? Yes, I do.

That's the same mistake Sony made. You can blame the snake for being true to its nature but I don't really see the point. By process of elimination, that leaves the entity which should have known what it was provoking. It is they who bear the real responsibility.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[mogness]

There it is again, and this is what I'm talking about.
Come on people, we're not talking about ethnic or religious persecution here, we're talking about a consumer electronics company. It's really overblown.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[mogness]

My point was that most people aren't really being affected by these things but there's a very loud group of people running around yelling boycott from the rooftops and acting like Sony's starting the next holocaust- it's only going to make it harder for the common people to relate to your cause.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[Anonymous Coward]

That's like exposing a wife beater by publishing the names and addresses of all his past wives.

Strictly speaking in a free market sense, paying for Sony products does make you partially responsible. Why, you ask? Because the invisible hand that supposedly corrects poor behavior in corporations is supposed to be the swath of customers who will willfully boycott products in response. Continuing to purchase the corporation's products serves only to reinforce any behavior the it may be involved in.

This would mean that the wife is responsible for being beaten. Clearly she should have done an extensive background check. Sure, no lawsuits may have been filed. She needs to go further. Hire an investigator to seek out all old female acquaintances and interview for potential flaws that may lead to abuse. This is sweet, now I have a valid excuse to beat my wife. She should have known.

Do you think everyone knows about how bad Sony is? I'm sure you only shop at reputable places, and know them to be reputable because you have investigated them and every company/supplier they deal with.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[PopeRatzo]

What is a company besides stockholders and employees?

Apparently, at least according to 5 members of the current Supreme Court, a company is a golem that has separate (and additional ) civil rights from the stockholders and employees.

Oh, it's also the board of directors, who are neither shareholders nor employees, but get a nice little bit of change for giving the CEO outrageous sums and not paying dividends to shareholders.

Re:I wonder if the hackers would stop..

[theaceoffire]

//User points out to ATMAvatar that almost all products are produced by two or three companies, and that almost all those companies have the same horrible practices.

//User points out that your choice tends to be "I will support this asshole or that asshole", not "I will support this asshole or this great guy!".

People are just blind...

[Frosty Piss]

Groan...

Certainly Sony has some major responsibility here...

But when will people stop trusting the Intertubes security implicitly and just blindly dumping all their personal info into various "secure" web sites and Internet connected systems?

People are just blind...

Re:People are just blind...

[yuhong]

An easy way would be to use different passwords.

Re:People are just blind...

[Anonymous Coward]

So what about all the rest of peoples personal information....? You know.. the stuff that they use to validate that they are them whenever they need to tell Sony that they "forgot their password" ?

Re:People are just blind...

[Jarik_Tentsu]

With an attitude like that, I assume you don't buy much stuff online.

At this stage, we should be able to trust internet security for major corporations to protect our data. What happens if PayPal gets hacked? "When will people stop trusting the intertubes security implicitly"?

I think its a rather reasonable expectations to expect a company like Sony to protect its user information.

Re:People are just blind...

[h4rr4r]

I think its a rather reasonable expectations to expect a company like Sony to protect its user information.

Recent history seems to disagree.

Re:People are just blind...

[Anrego]

But when will people stop trusting the Intertubes security implicitly and just blindly dumping all their personal info into various "secure" web sites and Internet connected systems?

The problem is, in this day you have little choice. Yes you can pick and choose the sites you think are likely to be secure (despite everything, before the PSN incident I would have guessed Sony's servers would be secure...) but just about anything can get hacked (RSA got hacked... wouldn't have guessed that one either).

I don't think people implicitly trust anything .. it's just that the only other choice is to restrict ourselves to services which don't require personal info .. a category which is getting smaller and smaller.

The two things that really need to happen are:

- This info needs to somehow become irrelevant. I'd love a day where I could post all this info to the world and it mean absolutely nothing. Relying on a set of secrets that you have to share with virtually everyone you do business with is kinda stupid.
- People who managed need to be held responsible.. and I mean _really_ be held responsible. People should be going to jail over the PSN thing, as it stands we'll be lucky if they get a fine.

Re:People are just blind...

[twocows]

Maybe when useful products stop forcing it to be a requirement.

Which is to say, never.

Re:People are just blind...

[grumbel]

But when will people stop trusting the Intertubes security implicitly and just blindly dumping all their personal info into various "secure" web sites and Internet connected systems?

When companies will stop requiring the data to gain access. In the PSN case for example you have to give name and address, even so that is completly unneeded for operating the free part of the service. It will even go so far as to do a bit of error checking on the data, so you can't just enter random stuff as address, it has to be a valid one. And once there faking the information actually becomes work, it is no longer a case of just not entering it and thus most people will provide real data.

The way to get companies to limit data collection of course requires some new laws, i.e. only allow companies to collect data necessary for the given transaction and not more then that.

User education of course is needed as well, but that only goes so far and won't really fix the underlying problem.

Re:People are just blind...

[Jarik_Tentsu]

That's the problem. It should be a reasonable expectations to expect any large company like that to have adequate security measured protecting customer data. The fact that they haven't should be a big issue with them specifically. I dunno how you can say people are blind for trusting them - or any other major company - in the first place though.

Re:People are just blind...

[node 3]

Groan...

Certainly Sony has some major responsibility here...

But when will people stop trusting the Intertubes security implicitly and just blindly dumping all their personal info into various "secure" web sites and Internet connected systems?

People are just blind...

Blind? That implies they could have looked into Sony's security and made an informed and rational decision as to the quality of their security.

It's not that people are stupid or blind or anything else. There's this thing called "trust". It's at the very heart of society. It's wholly unfeasible to expect people to be able to verify for themselves the quality and security of everything they do in the world. You can't check the farm where you get your lettuce, you can't test every electronic component for hazards, you can't check the purity of your medication, and you can't check the security of the web sites you interact with.

That's why we have public and private organizations like the FDA, FCC, UL, USDA, etc. Of course some of these have become something of a sham, but the idea is sound. If these things have become inept, it's not because it is their nature to become so, but because people like you who put too much responsibility on those least able to bear that responsibility coupled with a blind eye to corruption.

What do you expect of people? That they verify the unverifiable? Or simply eschew participation in our culture? If so, you are right about one thing, at least SOME people really are blind...

Re:People are just blind...

[node 3]

I think its a rather reasonable expectations to expect a company like Sony to protect its user information.

Recent history seems to disagree.

Which "recent history"? The one where ONE such company got targeted by the most notorious hackers on the web? Or the thousands of other companies in "recent history" where no such breach has occurred?

Historically speaking, this sort of data tends to be quite safe, just not without risk. But, then again, a life without risk is impossible, and trying too much to live such a life is essentially a waste of a perfectly good life.

I'd MUCH rather have my credit card information potentially at risk, but have the convenience of things like PSN, XBL, iTunes, Amazon, Netflix, etc., than keep my credit card info under lock and key for fear of possibly having to change my password, cancel my card and get a new card number (oh my!).

Re:People are just blind...

[yuhong]

And even if Sony itself don't do this, other sites do. This is a fundamental flaw with that approach.

Re:People are just blind...

[RobbieThe1st]

Like, say my security answer being: 8a1b3fb14ba5c80be1bf03606f225fec?
Why use your own personal information for that? Just use a hash of something, or use simply a key-value pair that you keep written down and stored in a secure place(and is unique to each site)? Sure, it'd be open to a physical security break, but 99.999% of the attackers involved do not have physical access to your computer or safe.

Re:People are just blind...

[steelfood]

I don't think past behavior was blindness in any way, but rather the reasonable expectations of paying customers. I think it is reasonable to assume that large companies will put at least a small amount of effort into securing their users' data, and that any breech wouldn't result in the immediate compromise of that data.

On the other hand, I do hope this will serve to change those who made the assumption in such a way that they will start to think about the consequences of their choices. People weren't forced to submit their information to Sony; they did so as a requisite to engaging in a business transaction with Sony. After this, they hopefully will take a second look at companies that offer services tied to some sort of registration, possibly question its necessity, and maybe as a result, question their own need for the company's product. In the end, I can't find fault in those who signed up for such services in the past, but I do hope they won't so casually do so again in the future after this.

What probably is going to actually happen is that a few people will never buy Sony again though they wouldn't think about the information in their iTunes account or their Xbox Live account, while the rest will simply forget about this whole affair once it's over, and go back to their usual habits again while holding onto their usual assumptions.

Re:People are just blind...

[shentino]

Reasonable yes.

Realistic? Not so much.

Re:People are just blind...

[Anonymous Coward]

Groan...

Certainly Sony has some major responsibility here...

But when will people stop trusting the Intertubes security implicitly and just blindly dumping all their personal info into various "secure" web sites and Internet connected systems?

People are just blind...

Yes, because my grandmother is prepared to run nmap scans against these web sites before she dares to login.

Re:People are just blind...

[Etrigoth]

Totally practical, I can see my elderly parents doing that, *and* the rest of the technophobic population of this hexadecimal-thinking 16 fingered planet on which we live :)

Re:People are just blind...

[Anonymous Coward]

This info needs to somehow become irrelevant. I'd love a day where I could post all this info to the world and it mean absolutely nothing.

It's called encryption and most large(r) organisations use it to secure their data in case of a breach

Re:People are just blind...

[sjames]

It's long training. You eat in a restaurant, then you hand your credit card over to someone you don't know who is probably paid quite poorly.. They will then disappear with it for 5 to 10 minutes. Order something by phone, you tell someone you can't even see your credit card details. The banks all say "relax, it's perfectly safe!".

Re:People are just blind...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your grandmother doesn't need to worry about nmap. She just needs to ask herself "why is Sony asking for my home address just to access this service?"

Re:People are just blind...

[vegiVamp]

How about that they are not blind to previous stunts entities have pulled, like the Sony rootkit.

Re:People are just blind...

[Cederic]

It's long training. You eat in a restaurant, then you hand your credit card over to someone you don't know who is probably paid quite poorly.. They will then disappear with it for 5 to 10 minutes.

Oh how quaint. That system was abandoned years ago here. These days they'll bring a card reader* to your table so you can retain your card the whole time.

* hopefully the card readers no longer transmit wireless in the clear, as the early versions did. But at least they're _trying_.

Re:People are just blind...

[Grygus]

99.999% of the attackers involved do not have physical access to your computer or safe.

99.999% of attackers haven't had access to the passwords on Sony's servers, either. Physical access is likely not required; if you think the average home machine, connected to the Internet, is in any way more secure than these servers, then you're setting yourself up for quite a shock. It's not even a lot more work to farm information from individual machines; in fact, I would not bet against this having already been accomplished on some scale.

A completely secure network is not possible. If a machine is accessible, then it is hackable. That's a fact of life. Claiming that intrusions are moral because they are possible is an argument for the end of privacy altogether; if that's your agenda then okay, but be aware that this is the position you're taking.

Re:People are just blind...

[Grygus]

To be fair though, the waiter faces the loss of his job, fines, and perhaps even jail time for misusing your card. His pay is low but you do have the force of law firmly on your side and so the trust seems approximately as reasonable as allowing a dentist you don't really know to poke around in your mouth with sharp metal objects. I'm not saying that Sony is culpable here - maybe they are and maybe they are not - but even if they are found culpable, what is likely to happen to them?

Re:People are just blind...

[RobbieThe1st]

No, what I'm saying is that if you use unique recovery information and keep it on physical media only, you won't be affected as much - At worst, you'll lose the account on the hacked site, but nothing else(provided you don't use the same password, of course).

Re:People are just blind...

[Anonymous Coward]

But, they are more secure. For one thing, stealing an individual's CC info isn't worth the effort.
Unless the hackers have a fully automated information miner, plus a network worm, which is rare these days, It makes much more sense to attack a company handling thousands of users' worth of data.
Second, modern operating systems have few services open to attack. I'd rather attack a PHP application -written by slaves in the third world and maintained by overworked Japanese guys who just happened to get a degree in CS from a prestigious university and couldn't write a program if their life was on the line- than a regular misconfigured Windows 7 machine.

Re:People are just blind...

[sjames]

That's just another case where the consumer is forced to just hope their info is being handled securely and not abused:

hopefully the card readers no longer transmit wireless in the clear

But alas, their hopes were again in vain:

as the early versions did

Re:People are just blind...

[sjames]

I do know that the most culpable of all, the banks that have known very well how to prevent all of this for 30 years now and refuse to do it, will get off scott free again (and again and again).

The waiter will probably not get caught, he'll sell the list of numbers to someone else who will run the fraud transactions in another state. The dentist at least has to get a degree and pass a certification.

In any event, the people who trusted Sony were not especially careless or blameworthy. I do hope many will decide not to trust Sony again though.

Re:People are just blind...

[Anonymous Coward]

I booked a fancy Sheraton hotel room yesterday. Giving up my credit card details over the phone.

Ha-Ha!

[mythosaz]

<Nelson>
Ha-Ha!
</Nelson>

Sony time to rebuild the severs from the ground up

[Joe_Dragon]

Sony time to rebuild the severs from the ground up all of them. It seems like the same bugs / holes are on all of your severs. And whiles you are rebuilding trun other os back on.

Re:Sony time to rebuild the severs from the ground

[sirsnork]

If it's the same bugs/holes, why would you start from scratch when you only have to fix a single flaw?

What they need to do is severely audit heir entire web code, as well as either pay for people who know how to do the above and pay for people to maintain their systems (since one of the break ins was because of an old apache)

If you ask me they have been having their code written, and their hardware managed by the lowest bidder, and as they saying goes, you get what you pay for

What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Derekloffin]

That the hacking community has 0 sense of morality at this point? That is more and more the impression I'm getting. This isn't going to help. If anything it is going to be more fuel to the camp that wants our governments to have insane legal powers to combat this stupidity.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Aardpig]

Morality? Son, hang out in 4chan for an hour, and get back to us.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no hacking community. Hackers aren't members of some central hacking club. They all behave independently. LulzSec is just one of many hacking groups. If a server is popular, then sooner or later it will get targeted. If it's hacked, and if it happens to be a white hat, then maybe they will responsibly disclose the vulnerability. If it happens to be a black hat, then maybe they will publish everything and start the server on fire.

Hacking is on the rise, and there's no telling what will happen when you're the victim. There are lots of white hats, and lots of black hats. Better to just secure your shit.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[captaindomon]

But they aren't crimes against a faceless corporation in this instance. This is a crime against thousands of individual humans who just had their credentials stolen and published.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony continues to be a target because Sony refuses to learn its lesson. And make no mistake, that lesson is about the consequences of abusing your customers, not about network security.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[AK Marc]

Sony is amoral (and amoral with a profit motive is indistinguishable from evil). Sony committed fraud and violated their own TOS. However, everyone knows that the worst that would happen if they lose in court is that anyone that gave them money would be graced with temporary access to some free content, which is a waste of time and money.

So, some have taken it upon themselves to extract some justice, as none will be seen in the legal channels. Yes, it's vigilante justice and should be denounced.

Interesting that you think the removal of an advertised feature (clear criminal FTC violation, even if the TOS allowed them to remove any and all functionality at a later date) that's going completely unpunished shouldn't warrant more government controls, but a few people lashing back at the multinational criminal organization will lead to justifications of taking away our freedoms. If that's really the case (and I'm not doubting you, just supposing), then our system is already so broken that such things would be the least of our worries.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[kaffiene]

Case in point - I've been pro open source, anti IP laws, anti harsh pirating / copying fines for a very long time. I'm pretty liberal and I don't like big corporations. But this shit just pisses me off. They don't like Sony so they fuck over the services that millions of paying customers are using and expose all their personal details? What a pack of pricks. That ain't cool, that's fucked up and selfish.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

So ok there are dicks out there. They are on the internet. They are even semi organized. Does that make it right?

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[kaffiene]

When they expose the personal details of millions of innocent customers? Jesus, use your fucking brain

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Derekloffin]

If it is truly a violation of the law, I'm all for punishing them. However, that has yet to be shown so don't run an argument that assumes this. The problem here is, Sony isn't the one being primarily hurt. It the people that are the ones being primarily hurt. This isn't even vigilante justice, this is probably more attention grabbing more than anything else. And sadly, yes it will lead to justifications for taking away our freedoms. It is a pattern that is all too common.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

"lashing out", they're not pestering people with flyers or ads or bad publicity campaigns, they're doing something illegal to combat something they perceive as illegal.

What happens next, Sony becomes the victim, will gain more rights than the end-user, and then bye bye privacy, hello government controlled internet.

Fucking idiots

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[godlessgambler]

What are they trying to prove? Nothing. Judging by their group name, I'd guess they're just "doing it for the lulz" (a.k.a. personal comic enjoyment without moral compass). This isn't your father's hacking community. Morals, standards and ethics have no place when the goal is sociopathic entertainment.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

they should've just used violence.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[AK Marc]

If it is truly a violation of the law, I'm all for punishing them.

So your argument is that you are illiterate and ignorant? Why not read the law yourself and form an opinion?

However, that has yet to be shown so don't run an argument that assumes this.

Why not? Are you going to argue that OJ didn't do it? Are you going to argue that because Ken Lay was acquitted (or some other legal finding to the same effect) that he didn't commit fraud? Your stupid argument is that because nobody was convicted of killing Nicole, that it must have been a suicide.

And sadly, yes it will lead to justifications for taking away our freedoms. It is a pattern that is all too common.

They don't need real justification. They have the next set of unconstitutional laws written and ready to go (the time from 9/11 to the USA PATRIOT Act was less than the time to write the entire thing from scratch, so we know they've done it in the past). Because a buch of Saudis attacked the US, the US passed laws allowing them to tap Americans and went to war with Iraq and Afghanistan. There could be an increase in DUIs and they'll bring out the next set of laws against computer crime.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Derekloffin]

So your argument is that you are illiterate and ignorant? Why not read the law yourself and form an opinion?

Yeah, that's real mature, start immediately with personal attacks. Unless you are a judge, and have decided the case, with the full set of facts, I'll just have to stick to what I said (and even if you are, well you're not impressing me with your level of reasoning). If you want to actually debate me, at least try to keep it civil.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[node 3]

Sony continues to be a target because Sony refuses to learn its lesson. And make no mistake, that lesson is about the consequences of abusing your customers, not about network security.

And what lesson is that? There are legitimate, legal, recourses is Sony did anything wrong. Shit, they didn't even do something that even 1/10th of 1% of their users even knew about, let alone had any expectation of ever using.

Seriously, walk up to anyone on the street, ask if them they have a PS3, then if so, ask them if they either:

A. Knew was "Other OS" was.
B. Ever used it, or had plans to.

If it was something Sony needed to "learn a lesson" over, it would have resulted in loss of market share. All this really is is a bunch of juvenile criminals who think they have the right to do whatever they want. I can only imagine how sad their lives must truly be to think this as some kind of moral crusade.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[brainzach]

The hackers are the ones abusing the customers the most.

Sony is guilty of taking away a feature from one of its products, which 99% of the customers don't care about. The hackers are responsible for stealing and releasing the personal and credit card information of millions of customers.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[vga_init]

It depends on why they are doing it thought. I'm glad that this stuff is coming out now, and the hackers being possibly benign, rather than these things being silently exploited by more nefarious groups/individuals. It makes me feel better that Sony lose face and tighten its security than risk anything further.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

That ain't cool, that's fucked up

So is trusting Sony Corp. with your CC #, your real name, your real home address, and everyone at Lulzsec knows what else.

I'm so glad this keeps happening. I hope everyone that trusted Sony continues to lose big for supporting Pure Evil[TM].

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[arth1]

So..... If your car manufacturer (this is /. after all) removed the tow point on your car when you had it in for service, without giving you a choice, it would be fine with you? After all, only a tiny fraction of drivers would know about it, and even fewer use it...

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum for why your argument is bullshit.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[arth1]

First, they came for the second save port and took it away, and I did not say anything, because I did not use ht second save port.
Then they came for the Super Audio CD and took it away, and I did not speak up, because I didn't play SACDs.
Then they came and took the PS2 hardware, and again I did not say anything, because the few PS2 games I have play under emulation.
Then they took away Other OS, and I looked the other way, because I do not know Linux and have never played any of the free games.

Then they took away my credit card information, and the only ones who would have spoken up for me, were the ones I had already ignored.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Maudib]

This industry is actively trying to undermine democracy, destroy individual property rights and trampel everyday civil liberties.

The people who give money to Sony and other RIAA/MPAA groups are part of the problem. They shouldn't be targeted, but any harms they derive from being customers of Sony are their own damn fault.

Look, if the mafia sets up shop in your neighborhood but you choose to work with them, don't complain if you get hurt when the rest of the community fights back.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[AK Marc]

If you want to actually debate me, at least try to keep it civil.

You've stated that you aren't open for debate. Since you've put that rule out there, then there's no point in being civil. Unless you want to actually debate whether Sony did or did not break the law with their actions in removing OtherOS, you have stated that you have made up your mind on that and no amount of facts could ever sway you.

But go on, tell me who you think killed Nicole. Or tell me if you think that Kenneth Lay committed fraud. Whether someone took an illegal action is irrelevant to whether they are found guilty of committing an illegal action (well correlated, one may hope, but one does not require the other), and we can debate whether such an action was taken completely divorced from the idea of whether there is sufficient evidence to convince a court of that. I'd have started there, but you asserted, quite plainly, that you refuse to give your opinion on the legality of the actions, and since you are refusing to share your opinion to compare and contrast with mine and to form a basis for debate, you obviously don't want debate, but to lecture others for not doing as you'd wish.

If I'm wrong, prove me so by providing your opinion. But since you've posted multiple times without doing so, I can't imagine you'd start now.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[brainzach]

Companies take away features all the time. Computers don't have floppy disk anymore. Windows stopped using DOS.

Most of the features that Sony took away were done to reduce the costs of the PS3 which is passed on to the consumer because video games consoles are sold at a loss.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Osgeld]

what's amusing is that this "pack of pricks" is just walking right into the vault, and you dont see a problem with the vault or the ones who built and maintain it?

I sure as fuck would stark asking questions if a small group of punk ass kids walked into my bank, unnoticed, took whatever the hell they wanted, and did it multiple times in a row.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol and phishers direct you to phishing sites just because they personally don't like you. How did your comment ever get +5.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[geminidomino]

Not to either condemn nor endorse LulzSec's actions, but WRT:

There are legitimate, legal, recourses is Sony did anything wrong.

"Illegal" and "Wrong" are completely orthogonal concepts.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Publicly releasing the data is unscrupulous, but not nearly as bad as silently exploiting or disseminating. It's the "public nudity" as compared to rape.

*shrug*

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

If their goal is to raise public awareness about Sony's misdeeds and corporate assholery, no, this isn't the way to do it.

But if their goal is to kill Sony, this is the way to do it. Keep hacking their insecure servers, getting in the news, establishing a popular meme against Sony. "Sony is insecure, I'm not giving them my banking information, etc." I'd say that the hackers were, you know, being evil, but... Sony committed fraud and violated their own TOS, right? The only thing the hackers are doing is taking the blame and making the evil public. They're not silently stealing the info and making m4d pr0fitZ off it, they're shitting all over Sony's PR. Same end result for the user (loss of privacy/data... maybe money? That would be more evil than Sony's doing, I guess), but Sony can't cover the loss up. I dunno, I haven't been following it all a whole lot, but it smells like hacktivism to me. *shrug*

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Charliemopps]

Lets just say that the hacking community has exactly the same sense of morality that Sony does.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[misexistentialist]

Seems to be the best option to maximize the harm to Sony. Yes there is collateral damage, but it is comparatively minor. Taking people's money and being too cheap or indifferent to secure their personal information is fucked up and selfish to a greater degree.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[node 3]

So..... If your car manufacturer (this is /. after all) removed the tow point on your car when you had it in for service, without giving you a choice, it would be fine with you? After all, only a tiny fraction of drivers would know about it, and even fewer use it...

I'm quite certain FAR more people know about and use the tow than know about or use Other OS.

But it's a red herring anyway. If there was a reason to remove it, sure. But there's no reason to. On the other hand, there was a very good reason for Sony to remove Other OS. Specifically, it was being used to hack the PS3.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum for why your argument is bullshit.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. I'm not making a logical chain to prove a fact. That's what "logical fallacies" refer to. I'm saying the impact is extremely minimal, something for which ad populum applies rather well.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[steelfood]

Morality is subjective. Exposing a few million user's names and passwords can be seen as a reasonably moral response to to companies that continue to trample over and strong arm their paying customers.

I don't endorse their actions, but I also wouldn't claim they're morally bankrupt. At the very least, they're doing something they believe is right. Now, if they're doing it for the money that comes with having information on a million users, then that's a different story. But everything points to this just being a form of activism, which makes them no worse than those rabid pro-life activists who spread the personal information about doctors who perform abortion all over the internet.

That having been said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. These people might be thinking they're right and doing good things, but the damage they're causing to people are real. And I can't imagine that they won't be on the receiving end of such a situation one day. And at that time, then how they feel about their past actions will be between themselves and their conscience.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Khyber]

"If it is truly a violation of the law, I'm all for punishing them."

Criminal negligence. Every single state has laws regarding it.

We also have data protection laws.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[node 3]

They aren't orthogonal. They just aren't identical. They are, however, related.

Besides, I covered "wrong as in not moral" when I wrote:

If it was something Sony needed to "learn a lesson" over, it would have resulted in loss of market share.

If you want to claim Sony did something wrong/immoral, and there isn't consumer outcry, and it isn't illegal, you're going to have a hard time convincing me it's something they need to be punished over.

People here are acting like this is some sort of horrible moral outrage. "Oh no, Sony removed a feature!" A feature that no one ever uses, including 99% of the people bitching about it! A feature that was being exploited to hack the system.

And if you were using Other OS, you were completely free to not update the firmware.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[TheCount22]

Thats a bit much. But I do agree that a boycott of Sony is in order but not for the reasons you stated. The reasons you should boycott Sony is because they install rootkits on peoples computers, they remove features from products after they are sold, and they don't take the security of your information seriously.

Buy buying Sony products you are enabling them to continue.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[TheCount22]

Sure but what if the bank started taking stuff out of you safety deposit box because some fine print on a 100 pages agreement said they could (other os). Would you be okay with that? How about if they installed spy cameras in your house how would you feel then (rootkit)? And finally to top it off the bank gets robbed. I suppose that would be acceptable. Should we just ignore the bank and focus only the robbers? What if the robbers where bank customers that wanted their stuff back?

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's cute you're pro open source and all, but what have you done about people like Sony? Probably less than the hackers. At least they're doing SOMETHING. Or even if you have, most people probably just complain.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

The hack was done by people most would consider immoral. Some of these people may be hackers. Therefore all hackers are immoral? Didn't think so.

Besides, the people who had their data compromised like it - otherwise they wouldn't do business with a company that is known for using rootkits against their customers.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[geminidomino]

They aren't orthogonal. They just aren't identical. They are, however, related.

That's arguable. At best, they occasionally intersect.

If you want to claim Sony did something wrong/immoral, and there isn't consumer outcry, and it isn't illegal, you're going to have a hard time convincing me it's something they need to be punished over.

Based on your "they were free not to update" comment, I doubt anything is going to convince you, so I'll simply counter that, just as right/wrong isn't determined by legality, nor is it determined by popular opinion.

And if you were using Other OS, you were completely free to not update the firmware.

And not actually be able to use the other primary feature, i.e. actually playing games. That wouldn't be such a non-option if they didn't force upgrades on you for no reason. No, "This game does NOT require FW 6.0"

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[kenshin33]

you can go out and buy a floppy disk. Other OS wasn't a burden but assuming it was stop simply supporting it ... don;t remove it! or let those who are willing to do it do it ! As for the "sold at a loss" it;s no fucking excuse!

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[node 3]

They aren't orthogonal. They just aren't identical. They are, however, related.

That's arguable. At best, they occasionally intersect.

I'd say more than occasionally. And their intersection isn't mere chance. Regardless, that's not the behavior of two things which are orthogonal. Law is heavily influenced by a sense of morality.

If you want to claim Sony did something wrong/immoral, and there isn't consumer outcry, and it isn't illegal, you're going to have a hard time convincing me it's something they need to be punished over.

Based on your "they were free not to update" comment, I doubt anything is going to convince you, so I'll simply counter that, just as right/wrong isn't determined by legality, nor is it determined by popular opinion.

All three are highly linked. However, that's neither here nor there. Sony didn't do anything illegal, and if they did, they should be brought to trial.

They also did nothing immoral, but legal. If they did, consumers should hold them to account. That they aren't, in fact, that they don't even care, makes the case that they have done something immoral a bit difficult to defend.

And if you were using Other OS, you were completely free to not update the firmware.

And not actually be able to use the other primary feature, i.e. actually playing games. That wouldn't be such a non-option if they didn't force upgrades on you for no reason. No, "This game does NOT require FW 6.0"

Life's full of tough choices. This, however, is a rather simple one. If you really want both, you can buy two consoles. Otherwise, you can choose: new games or Other OS. It's really simple, and neither illegal nor immoral.

The silliest part of all this is that almost nobody actually ever *used* Other OS. Outside of making a supercomputer out of a cluster of PS3s, it's pretty much just a thing for nerds to fuck around with. This has NOTHING to do with morality or legality, and everything to do with the fact that a bunch of nerds who will NEVER use Other OS don't like the IDEA that it was removed.

That's really all it boils down to. The idea that this is a moral issue is absolutely silly.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[cyphercell]

Nope. A logical fallacy is a logical fallacy. Any user who purchased a PS3 with the expectation that "other os" would be available has cause for grievance. Now, I don't really think that's the only reason this is happening. I was pissed this time around until it occurred to me that, damn, there are suddenly repercussions for leveraging your development folks past sane tolerances. No longer is it just okay to abandon security because it isn't a bullet point on a brochure. Way more important than running yellow dog from my living room television. IMHO

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Osgeld]

I don't know whom your replying to, if you would please read I am putting Sony at fault for not locking down or seeming to care at all, as would I my bank

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[man_the_king]

First, they hacked and brought the Network down, and I cheered the hackers, because I was not one of the victims and I hated Sony.

Then they hacked and stole and publicized personal and financial details, and I cheered the hackers, because I was not one of the victims and I hated Sony.

Then they hacked and stole my personal and financial details from some other location, and THEN I was outraged and was no longer cheering them, but was impotent as the very ones I had cheered were the ones now committing a crime against me.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Dhalka226]

"The community" isn't fighting back. "The community" is deliberately setting out to hurt you in an attempt to make the mafia feel bad enough to stop.

How does that sort of thing usually end up? Innocent people hurt, vigilantes in jail, new police powers to oppress every party involved and oh yeah, the mafia is still being the mafia.

You expect this situation to be somehow different? You think the people who did nothing wrong but disagree with you and got their identity stolen are going to be mad at Sony? Or at the people who did it to them?

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[geminidomino]

Law is heavily influenced by a sense of morality.

It's more heavily influenced by a sense of cash-flow.

They also did nothing immoral, but legal

But they did. They tampered with and disabled a device, regardless of the wishes of the rightful owners which, contrary to what they try to force, is no longer them.

The option to not upgrade the firmware is not an option, regardless of the "legality" of disclaiming "fitness for a purpose" (which is NOT legal in all jurisdictions). They sold it as a game system with added features, then they forced the owners to choose between removing said features and removing the primary purpose of the console, unilaterally and without consideration for the other party. How USEFUL said feature was is irrelevant. Sony had no right to cripple it to protect their own bottom line.

Life's full of tough choices. This, however, is a rather simple one. If you really want both, you can buy two consoles. Otherwise, you can choose: new games or Other OS. It's really simple, and neither illegal nor immoral.

It's clearly immoral to one who isn't an apologist. They sold the device to do two things, then decide offhand to turn one off so you have to buy a second to get what you paid for the first time?

Your concept of morality is a frightening thing.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

LOOOL. What makes you think they try to prove something. Or that they would need it.

PROTIP: "They did it for the lulz."
Look up "lulz" if you have to. It's far from "lol".

That's everything there is to it, and the whole point of all trolling coming from 4chan & co.
And apart from rage nearly the only motivating emotion anon has. ^^

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Ash-Fox]

what have you done about people like Sony?

He's done more for the customers by declaring how this was not the ethical thing to do.

At least they're doing SOMETHING.

Hurting people who aren't directly involved at all. Sick people.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Ciggy]

But it's a red herring anyway. If there was a reason to remove it, sure. But there's no reason to. On the other hand, there was a very good reason for Sony to remove Other OS. Specifically, it was being used to hack the PS3.

[emphasis added]

The tow bars I've seen end in quite a small area which means it will provide quite large pressure (and hence destructive force) when the vehicle is used to reverse into, say, a plate glass window - based on your argument I would now expect every tow bar to be removed on the next service of all cars as they could be used for hacking [in the sense of a machete] into shops and banks, and so have an excellent reason to remove them.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, as I undestood they're not trying to make profits out of stolen info, so Sony is still a bit more amoral than hackers.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[gentry]

The vast majority of Sony's customers have no idea of the company's moral and ethical standing. They buy a PS3 because it plays games or a TV because it got the best reviews. Those who oppose Sony should spend their time educating Sony's customers of the company's ill will rather than create problems for them. The crackers are the ones who will get the bad name and the public baying for their blood meanwhile Sony play the victim. Comparing Sony to the Mafia is a bad analogy too - Sony haven't killed anyone, they don't extort money with menace. If people don't agree with Sony's practices they don't need to spend their money with them.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies take away features all the time. Computers don't have floppy disk anymore

But they don't remove floppy disk drives from any computer that you take in for a service; I mean, it's the perfect (and original) attack vector for viruses so it ought to be removed to protect the computer.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[simoncpu was here]

So ok there are dicks out there. They are on the internet.

I agree. There are no girls in the Internet.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[N1AK]

What a pack of pricks. That ain't cool, that's fucked up and selfish.

You've summed them up pretty nicely. Sadly, far too many people are still ignorant to the fact thay are looking for victims, and it's a lucky coincidence if they happen to target people you don't like, rather than you or people you do like.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Gaygirlie]

They don't like Sony so they fuck over the services that millions of paying customers are using and expose all their personal details? What a pack of pricks. That ain't cool, that's fucked up and selfish.

I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, it doesn't hurt SONY in the least bit, they can just play the sympathy card and get even more support from the general populace while at the same time they simply do not care if the customer data has been copied off of them. And well, the customers then? Was the hacker groups' intentions to hurt the customers or SONY? Publishing all their passwords and everything just hurts the customers, many of whom don't even understand what's going on!

This is willful, ignorant, and downright moronic from their part. They could have just posted a list of usernames and left everything else out, just to prove a point. I still wouldn't condone of their behaviour, but atleast they wouldn't have majorly screwed over entirely innocent people!

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[psiclops]

dammnit, i only got this thing connected cause i heard it was full of porn

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[X.25]

Case in point - I've been pro open source, anti IP laws, anti harsh pirating / copying fines for a very long time. I'm pretty liberal and I don't like big corporations. But this shit just pisses me off. They don't like Sony so they fuck over the services that millions of paying customers are using and expose all their personal details? What a pack of pricks. That ain't cool, that's fucked up and selfish.

Ok. And what other method you would suggest those people use, for them to be heard and for those (exposed, etc) customers to actually start voicing their concerns?

You do realize this is all about making a statement?

Maybe they should write a blog about how bad Sony is?

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[node 3]

It's clearly immoral to one who isn't an apologist.

Yawn... You disagree with me, so I must be an "apologist". At least you didn't call me a fanboy, so I guess that's something.

They sold the device to do two things

Yes: Play games and play Blu-ray discs. Other OS was NEVER a major reason for people to buy a PS3. You keep acting like this is something more than an absolutely *minute* number of PS3 owners even *knew* about, let alone *used*.

then decide offhand to turn one off so you have to buy a second to get what you paid for the first time?

It wasn't "offhand", and it wasn't in order to sell a second PS3. If every person who used both the gaming side and the Other OS side of the PS3 bought a second one, that would be an increase of *far* less than 1 tenth of 1% additional sales. Sony has lost much more in their downtime than they ever made due to the Other OS feature.

Your concept of morality is a frightening thing.

Why, because I think there has to be an actual negative impact for something to be immoral? Or that people who buy a PS3 have the right to tell Sony they can't drop a feature in an optional update that addresses a severe security flaw in their gaming console, a feature that is neither for gaming nor for playing Blu-ray discs? A feature which very few ever used, and of those that do, can continue to do so just fine?

Yeah, how "frightening" my morality allows corporations to make their own decisions, just as consumers are allowed to make theirs.

Sony did nothing illegal (although the courts can decide that for themselves) nor did they do anything immoral. They just did something that YOU DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF. That's not the basis for morality. You're not the center of the universe, others are allowed to do things that you don't like.

Contrary to the sensitive egos around here, it's not immoral to piss off someone, not even nerds.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

in that case we should string them all up and have crows pick their eyeballs.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Cederic]

Companies take away features all the time. Computers don't have floppy disk anymore. Windows stopped using DOS.

Erm. The computer I bought with a floppy disk drive in it still has a floppy disk drive in it. It also runs Windows with DOS available.

If Sony had said "We will no longer sell PS3 with OtherOS available" then people would've been disappointed and may not have bought a PS3. They wouldn't have responded and protested the way that they have.

Instead Sony said "We're going to break the device we sold to you, and try to sue into oblivion the poor sod that tries to fix it for you".

Next you'll be telling me that you've got no problem with Dell breaking into your house to remove the floppy drive from the PC you bought from them in 2005, even though you have data on floppy disks still.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Pentium100]

Yes: Play games and play Blu-ray discs. Other OS was NEVER a major reason for people to buy a PS3.

Well, even if one person bought PS3 for both games and other OS, it was still immoral to turn the feature off without a partial refund. If the PS3 did not have the other OS feature, maybe the person would have bought Xbox360 or no console at all.

This feature may not have been one that majority cared about, but it was still advertised and official, not an undocumented function. Overclock capability is undocumented and not advertised, so you cannot blame Intel or AMD that your CPU is unstable when overclocked even though the same model runs great for everyone else.

There are a lot of rarely used functions of devices. But then the fact that the manufacturer included that function means that it is used by someone (otherwise, why include it and raise the price/lower the profit?). Same thing with the Other OS feature. Sony knew that it was useful to someone, that's why they bothered to include and advertise it in the first place. Then they act surprised when some people actually use it.

optional update

Not optional if you want to use your device as it was advertised - for games, Bluray and other OS.

security flaw in their gaming console

Right, if you don't update you'll get hacked. I don't know of anybody who got hacked trough their PS3 or got malware on it. As for people hacking their own consoles - I do not really see a problem. I can hack my PC all day long, try out various security measures etc.

a feature that is neither for gaming nor for playing Blu-ray discs?

Yet a feature that was advertised and a feature that may have caused some people to make the decision to buy a PS3 instead of a competitors product.

A feature which very few ever used, and of those that do, can continue to do so just fine?

They cannot for various reasons:
1. Some applied the update without being warned that it will turn off the Other OS feature without a way of restoring it (if some Windows update messes up my PC, I can format, reinstall and make sure that I do not install that update again).
2. Some bought the PS3 for both games and Other OS, otherwise maybe they would have bought a PC for both games ans Linux or Xbox360 for games and PC for Linux.

As for "not affecting a lot of people" and why I care even tough it does not affect me directly, well, next time I could be part of the "not a lot" set - buy a device for some function just to get that function removed some time later. Though maybe that's why I prefer older devices if they can serve the same function - I can repair them and modify them as much as I like without any trouble from the manufacturer.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony is part of RIAA and MPAA, you stupid git.

http://www.riaa.com/aboutus.php?content_selector=aboutus_members&f=s
http://www.mpaa.org/faq

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

This. There are quite a few people I know who were debating whether to buy a XBox360 or a PS3 and they have decided to stick to MS for purely practical reasons.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Waaaaahhh! When you consider many corporations, law enforcement agencies, governments both foreign and domestic, have total access to every bit of data about your life, it really makes no sense worrying whether other peons on the low end of the social food chain can also see a slice of the same data. Go change a password or two and move on. And besides, in this fight, there are larger principles at stake here. I believe that the war-mongers of the world have a phrase that justifies the "collateral damage" in such conflicts: "You have to break a few eggs in order to make an omelet". See, I feel better about Sony's predicament already.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, if the mafia sets up shop in your neighborhood but you choose to work with them, don't complain if you get hurt when the rest of the community fights back.

Perfect analogy. People should learn to not do business with immoral, corrupt corporations like Sony. Since the rootkit saga I vowed to never give a single penny to Sony again and I stuck with it.

This also makes me think of the Death Star argument from Clerks.

Blue-Collar Man: Excuse me. I don't mean to interrupt, but what were you talking about?
Randal: The ending of Return of the Jedi.
Dante: My friend is trying to convince me that any contractors working on the uncompleted Death Star were innocent victims when the space station was destroyed by the rebels.
Blue-Collar Man: Well, I'm a contractor myself. I'm a roofer... (digs into pocket and produces business card) Dunn and Reddy Home Improvements. And speaking as a roofer, I can say that a roofer's personal politics come heavily into play when choosing jobs.
Randal: Like when?
Blue-Collar Man: Three months ago I was offered a job up in the hills. A beautiful house with tons of property. It was a simple reshingling job, but I was told that if it was finished within a day, my price would be doubled. Then I realized whose house it was.
Dante: Whose house was it?
Blue-Collar Man: Dominick Bambino's.
Randal: "Babyface" Bambino? The gangster?
Blue-Collar Man: The same. The money was right, but the risk was too big. I knew who he was, and based on that, I passed the job on to a friend of mine.
Dante: Based on personal politics.
Blue-Collar Man: Right. And that week, the Foresci family put a hit on Babyface's house. My friend was shot and killed. He wasn't even finished shingling.
Randal: No way!
Blue-Collar Man: (paying for coffee) I'm alive because I knew there were risks involved taking on that particular client. My friend wasn't so lucky. (pauses to reflect) You know, any contractor willing to work on that Death Star knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A roofer listens to this... (taps his heart) not his wallet.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

You do have strong opinions... Just kidding.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[asylumx]

So if your "car manufacturer" (I assume you meant dealer, but w/e) does this to you, you think that gives you the right to break in to their Corporate HQ and take whatever you want?

By the way, you'd be correct about the argumentum ad populum fallacy if the GP were trying to say it was ethical, but he's not. He's trying to say that in general, people don't give a rat's ass about that feature nor the fact that it was removed.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony isn't the "Mafia." They don't go around breaking knuckles, forcing me to do business with them. You know what *are* an organized criminal outfits? Hacker groups. They (you?) aren't winning the PR war. When some random middle-class working mother discovers a hacker stole her user info from Sony, sold it/gave it to Russian criminals, who then used it to empty her bank account (because she used the same UN/PW at Chase), steal her identity, and ruin her credit, she doesn't say, "Wow, those white knight heroes at LulzSec really stuck it to the evil corporation!" She feels like she's been the victim of a crime. And she's not going to see Sony as the criminal; she's going to blame the hackers. And there are millions more of her, and the more this happens, the more politically popular tough criminal laws against hacker groups are going to appear.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[JustSomeProgrammer]

At this point I don't see Sony as being the villain here anymore. In the beginning yes they screwed up and they have been working on a fix. Their systems are obviously all similar so all equally vulnerable. Let them fix the damn issue. They don't need more exposure. People are already bitching.

And this is the first public disclosure that I have seen. The people who didn't understand Sony telling them hey we screwed up and your information is probably compromised aren't going to get this message either. And that message carried a lot more good will with the public than some l33t hacker group saying "A month later Sony still has vulnerable systems. See we got all of your user names and passwords and we're going to give them to everyone so you can be sure your shit will be stolen! LOLZ"

What's the statement? The hacker community is full of pricks who like to point out stuff that is obvious at this point?

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[drinkypoo]

But they aren't crimes against a faceless corporation in this instance. This is a crime against thousands of individual humans who just had their credentials stolen and published.

You mean kind of like when you commit a crime against a faceless corporation, thousands of individual humans who work for it have their job threatened? Those people might have a harder time finding a new employer than the customers of Sony would have a hard time finding another vendor for a Blu-Ray player. I have less sympathy for the customers than I do for the employees, and I only have so much for them. But I do have SOME, because I live in a capitalist society too, and I need money to buy stuff myself. Sony sells nothing essential for life, so the customers are funding suffering for nothing but their own pleasure.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Syberz]

When's the last time you had a burglar get into your house, not take anything and leave a note saying: "I just wanted to show you how insecure your house is, here's how I easily got in..."?

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a rather broad statement, there... Are you sure that the ENTIRE hacking community follows suit with your opinion of their morality? You do realize that some members of "the hacking community" had their accounts compromised as well, right?

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Agent0013]

If it is truly a violation of the law, I'm all for punishing them.

Just imagine what criminal charges would have been brought up on some individual person if they put rootkits onto as many computers as Sony did. They certainly got away with breaking the law there! If the justice system is so broken that it can no longer hold large corporations accountable for their actions, then the only recourse left is vigilante justice. I think we have more like this to look forward to in the future. The goverment is beholden to the corporation, so there is no one to look out for the people but the hackers. Just look what the US prosecutors did for Cisco recently.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

And Apple and Microsoft aren't? You stupid git.

Re:What are they trying to prove at this point?

[Anonymous Coward]

That the hacking community has 0 sense of morality at this point?

Why should hackers show a sense of morality when the corporations don't?

Don't give the likes of Sony your information and it won't get leaked and remember is was Sony that didn't think your data was important enough to secure properly.

wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

Way to give the site free advertisement you dim-wits

Re:wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure the moms of LulzSec children can't afford the slashdotting.

Captcha: retard, exactly what's going on since it's a quest of self-esteem reconcilation by alleged hacking prestige. Oh what the kids do for attention these days.

Annoying..

[laxguy]

Personally I'm pretty tired of hearing this shit.. at this point is it really even worth the effort? SQL injections? Script-kiddies leeching off of unsecured websites.. this shit happens every day. Any else suspicious about the line "said that the group has more, but can’t copy all of the information it stole." Why can't they copy all the data? Probably because the "hack" wasn't as big as they want everyone to believe.

Re:Annoying..

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you dumb? Groups never release all the data, just a sample for verification. Why? Because it's sold to the highest bidder.

Re:Annoying..

[Anonymous Coward]

I just took 3 random email address and password combos and tried them on their respective sites, one worked. Lesson for that is, use a different password for every single site you sign up on. But still. Also, the first hack on Sony the other week by Lulz wasn't a SQL injection, they compromised a Linux server with a 0 day they discovered (or maybe bought) but it was for an unpatched system running 2.4 or something.

Re:Annoying..

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally I'm pretty tired of hearing this shit.. at this point is it really even worth the effort? SQL injections? Script-kiddies leeching off of unsecured websites.. this shit happens every day. Any else suspicious about the line "said that the group has more, but can’t copy all of the information it stole." Why can't they copy all the data? Probably because the "hack" wasn't as big as they want everyone to believe.

But it's happening to Sony, and therefore it's hilarious.

Re:Annoying..

[future assassin]

I don't mind, its better than whats on tv AND its real life drama. I'm watching a 7 hour dvd set on WW2 and its amazing how people went out and died for freedom and kill tyranny and at the end their great/great grand children now have to live with corporate tyranny taking over the world.

Re:Annoying..

[Anonymous Coward]

These hackers look at themselves like the French resistance. Perhaps poorly coordinated and sometimes unscrupulous, but they *think* they're helping.

Re:Annoying..

[bloodhawk]

There are all sorts of reasons they might not be able to copy all the data. SQL Injection attacks can often be limited by the server side field limits that your returning the data in or the size of query results. if you have to return 20 rows at a time it can take quite a while to suck down a million records.

Re:Annoying..

[Mostly a lurker]

The "hack" proved that databases with huge amounts of sensitive data (not just users, passwords, and personal private information by the way) were easily accessible via an SQL injection attack. In theory, they could have downloaded the lot, but it would have taken a huge amount of time and resources to do so using remote SQL injection. Their objectives were not criminal use of the data, but to embarrass Sony, and probably massage their own egos. They did not need everything to do that. Be thankful that this group launched the attack, and hope they did so before a criminal enterprise grabbed all the data. The damage from exposing this small sample, especially with the content available to assist in mitigation, will probably be pretty limited. That would not be true if the mafia silently acquired the data, and used it before the data breach came to light.

Re:Annoying..

[PhxBlue]

... and at the end their great/great grand children now choose to live with corporate tyranny taking over the world.

FTFY.

Re:Annoying..

[drinkypoo]

The problem with that idea is that it's the only choice people are offered. If you try to live outside the scope of corporate America you are demonized, criminalized, and either brought into compliance or punished for being different. Right now the federal government is going around harassing Amish and in some cases even shutting down their dairy operations because they aren't pasteurizing their milk. For the same reason they are literally raiding health food stores and confiscating their stocks of cheese! People raising animals for food in small operations, the only kind where anyone actually has time to examine and check every animal's health, are being subjected to fees and fines orders of magnitude greater than their potential profit! People playing only freely-licensed music in their establishments are being hit with lawsuits and stop orders because they haven't given an entirely undeserved cut of the action to a body which managed to buy legislation to insert itself between customers and all authors!

Now, granted, we always have the option of revolt, but most people shy away from stuff that may get them killed.

Those people alive today are not the ones who chose this and to suggest that the people of today chose to live under this tyranny is disingenuous at best.

Re:Annoying..

[PhxBlue]

Now, granted, we always have the option of revolt, but most people shy away from stuff that may get them killed.

To a point, yes. The question people have to ask themselves is, what is that point? Folks in Egypt, Yemen, Libya, Syria and Tunisia have already answered that question.

Re:Sony time to rebuild the severs from the ground

[sgrover]

It would seem to me that Sony has had plenty of time to rebuild the servers. It would seem the problem is not with the hardware or the configuration of the servers (though I'm sure that plays a very important role!), but with the software they built. If that software is THAT buggy, the right solution should be to rebuild that software with modern security practices in mind (as opposed to NO security implementations at all).

This up then immediately cracked fiasco they are dealing with shows that they continue to use the same passwords and the same failed security routines. Maybe if they put their hand in the fire just one more time they won't get burned anymore. Seems to be a flaw in the thinking, but I just can't put my finger on it.

The money quote

[DigiShaman]

"When asked why the data was hashed instead of encrypted, he said it was standard industry practice."

Re:The money quote

[Anonymous Coward]

Um... seeing as their server was compromised, then the fact that the password was hashed instead of encrypted is a good thing, since it means the actual password is not recoverable (assuming it

Re:The money quote

[nedlohs]

How is that a money quote?

Or do you mean showing the stupidity of the person asking the question?

Re:The money quote

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think you know what hashing is. It is better then encryption because you can't reverse it. The only way is to create a rainbow table of the hashing algorithm used. Even then, you should use a salt with it and use password stretching to make it even harder to do a bruteforce against it with rainbow tables.

With encryption, all you need to find out is how it was encrypted and figure out the key. Then you can get the original passwords back. Hashing prevents all this because they never know what the original text is.

Re:The money quote

[TheCount22]

Rainbow tables? I bet there isn't even a salt.

Another Script Kiddie Failure

[Anonymous Coward]

So some script kiddies are claiming they hack some random Sony server and obtained a million users data but they can't prove it other than posting some BS torrent on the PirateBay...

Right...

Re:Another Script Kiddie Failure

[Anonymous Coward]

can't prove it other than posting some BS torrent on the PirateBay...

...What? The data is completely valid. How is that not legitimate proof?

Re:Another Script Kiddie Failure

[flimflammer]

Am I the only person who finds it sad that Sony is letting itself be victimized by so called "script kiddies"? or should it only be news when someone who actually knows what they're doing does it?

Do they have a choice?

[saikou]

In most cases people don't really have much choice.
You go to register to do something, and marketing department demands that registration form has a mandatory City, Address, Zip, blah blah, whatever their data appetite demands (and probably with data validation too, so doing New York, Blah Street, won't work).
Sure, some people will stop right there. But if "free" thing you gain access to by filling out registration form seems compelling enough, people will fill in the address.
And only a few of them will be clever enough to give some other (easily remembered, in case of site's trickery) address.
That data will live in archive forever, because marketing will never ever allow deleting anything.
Until it gets stolen (heck, probably afterwards too, but there will be a marketing blurb about being very secure, tested daily for hacker intrusions and stuff like that, wash, rinse, repeat)

Re:Do they have a choice?

[Frosty Piss]

In most cases people don't really have much choice.

Nonsense.

There are very few (if any) random web sites that validate your name against known data, except perhaps credit card transactions.

Sure, many sites validate real zip codes (though I have never seen street level validation - except CC transactions), but to say people *HAVE* to spill all their personal info is just ignorent.

And, this doesn't even address the issue of saving your private personal documents and images "in the cloud" ... totally unnecessary and unwise.

Re:Do they have a choice?

[node 3]

What does any of this have to do with Sony?

People signed in to use the service, entered in their credit card in order to buy things, used their real info because not only is it honest (and not fraud, which you seem to be recommending--how moral of you!) and easier to remember, but necessary, as you admit, when you use a credit card.

I'm unaware of any Sony service which is commonly used to store private documents in the cloud.

You are raving.

Re:Do they have a choice?

[Anonymous Coward]

but to say people *HAVE* to spill all their personal info is just ignorent.

Delicious.

Re:Do they have a choice?

[brainzach]

Your address isn't that private of data. If you really want to steal some addresses, just open a phone book.

Re:Do they have a choice?

[arth1]

What is this "phone book" of which you speak?
Another archaic thing like paper cheques, sliding windows, telefax machines, pagers and cassette tapes that are only seen in the home of the brave and land of the free?

Re:Do they have a choice?

[Anonymous Coward]

123 Some St, Somewhere, (real state), (real country) has yet to fail a validation check for addresses for me. Surprisingly enough, 1234 5678 usually works for phone numbers too if it has the correct amount of digits for your country.

I wonder if some analyst somewhere is looking at these kinds of things and thinking "How many families live at 123 Some St?"

Re:Do they have a choice?

[AmiMoJo]

Just invent a persona with a valid address and use that. Actually the address need not be genuine because although they do basic checks like looking for a valid postal code that is in the right city they can't do much with things like house numbers, mainly because when a new house gets built or an old one split into flats new addresses are created. If they used a database of valid house numbers they would not be able to supply services to customers at those addresses until the database gets updated.

Or alternatively, just pick someone at random out of the phone book :-)

Re:Do they have a choice?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know someone who signed up for PSN with an entirely fake name, utilizing an address that was, at the time at least, undeveloped land.

Let the internet work for you, people. Spend 5 minutes with a baby name site, a map site, and an area code index.

Unless you need to run a credit card or something with them, why bother using your real information when they clearly do not need, deserve, or respect it?

Re:Do they have a choice?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's still the fault of the customer, for being more interested in the free shiny, than in protecting their personal info.

Companies only get away with their tyranny because the customers are more concerned with their avarice, greed and need to fill voids in their lief with possessions than they are in protecting themselves.

Also, many of us are smart enough to dump fake names, fake addresses, fake emails (or disposable ones)...you'd be surprised how often this works, especially for a site that isn't used for purchases.

Sony company culture of indifference won't change

[Lead Butthead]

Sony company culture of indifference won't change over a few hacks. It may have made them look stupid (and that's got to hurt their ego) but ultimately the data being lost doesn't contain those of their officers, and frankly I don't think Sony gives a flying f_ck what happens to their customers (as demonstrated by rootkit) or their rights (demonstrated by repeatedly removing features from products and lied about it despite being caught lying.)

Death by a thousand cuts

[Gideon Wells]

At this point Sony is a beached whale. Maybe there is some merit to security through obscurity, but now everyone knows Sony is wounded and has lack luster defenses. Heck, I'm wouldn't be surprised at this point if the vending machines at Sony buildings didn't give out free food/drinks when prompted.

At what point now does Sony get forcibly shut down? They are nearing the point they might as well hand out a random customer's identification, credit card number, address and phone number with every purchase from them. The information would still be leaking out slower if they TRIED to be intentionally malicious at this point.

Re:Death by a thousand cuts

[Mashiki]

Well if Sony is a beached whale, does that mean some genius is going to break out the dynamite and blow it up in a few days? I think that the rain of putrid guts, entrails and rotting flesh falling all over the globe will be fun had by all.

Re:Death by a thousand cuts

[xMrFishx]

That sounds like the marketing deployment of Blu-ray.

People are just gullible

[Lead Butthead]

Certainly Sony has some major responsibility here...

People are just gullible. Just because there's a perceived responsibility does not equate to acting responsible.

you know

[Anonymous Coward]

These hackers should be dragged out into the middle of the street and beaten. Not because they hacked Sony, but because they use the idiotic and infantile "lulz."

Re:you know

[Alex Belits]

lulz is a corruption of L-O-L, LOLOLOL!

Here I said it, with my 3-digit Slashdot ID. What now?

Re:you know

[Unkyjar]

Now...we dance!

Mis-Directed R&D funds...

[Anonymous Coward]

All that loot spent on DRM, and they could've spent it on security.

Re:Mis-Directed R&D funds...

[TheCount22]

Haha

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets be real here: These hacks might make it to /., but mainstream media doesn't bother with them.

Sony might pay some guy with a CISSP to look at stuff, and they might tighten a router ACL. However, to a lot of companies, security is a cost center, and to be minimized.

Realistically, these hacks only hurt Sony's customers. People will have completely forgotten about this stuff come September, unless the victims are nailed with ID theft.

Prove? No. Punish.

[Anonymous Coward]

They have nothing to prove. They just want Sony to hurt. It is out of revenge.

Those who post usernames and passwords aren't the noble protectors of the public. They are adolescent script kiddies who got pissed off and are striking back.

Re:Sony time to rebuild the severs from the ground

[Anonymous Coward]

Because if all servers have the same bug, then all servers may have already been compromised and the only way to reliably clean the servers is to start fresh.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you serious? The PSN hack has been covered by pretty much every media outlet on the planet. This new hack is already being covered by The Wall Street Journal, The Financial Times and CNN, and the news only broke an hour ago. It'll be all over the news tonight and in every paper tomorrow.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[erroneus]

You know, either way I'm okay with the results. I haven't been a Sony customer for years. I won't buy anything with a Sony label on it. If it takes some "hard lessons" for everyone else to stop being a Sony customer, then that's what will have to happen. I had to learn it hard too -- expensively. Laptops, Clie' and more. I'm just done with them and their amazingly well-timed breaking after the warranty expires.

Sony isn't going to voluntarily rehabilitate itself. They will have to lose customers before they take any notice. I think one unfortunate reality is that none of this may be enough. The number of people who will buy from Sony will probably always out-number those who won't by 100 to 1. We live in a world filled with consumer zombies.

This is an embarrassment to Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

SonyPictures.com was owned by a very simple SQL injection, one of the most primitive and common vulnerabilities.
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.

Re:This is an embarrassment to Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm copying this from enemy's propaganda and i'll be happy if Sony deny:

Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
can you believe it?
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.

Anonymous C.

Re:This is an embarrassment to Sony

[TheCount22]

I'm copying this from enemy's propaganda and i'll be happy if Sony deny:

Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
can you believe it?
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.
Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext.

Anonymous C.

Ouch very lame....

What is this 1967?

Re:This is an embarrassment to Sony

[TheCount22]

Ouch Sony that is *&@# lame!

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[quickgold192]

Yeah, this'll hurt them like Kazaa hurts the MPAA - it won't. In fact, it'll more likely lead to the govt giving more public companies "emergency" legal powers to smack down anyone they suspect of being against them. Especially since today CNN had a "are your passwords safe online? Are YOU safe online?" special earlier today.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[hexagonc]

I don't know. . . repeatedly losing this much customer data or really any customer data is a serious public relations blunder. Sony Computer Entertainment already lost this console generation. I don't know if it can handle too much more egg on its face. At some point this is going to start making a serious dent in the bottom line.

I am not crying

[Anonymous Coward]

All I really care about is getting official Linux support back from Sony. It seems like having Linux support didn't have any real impact on security anyway since Sony and the PS3 is getting hacked left and right anyway. So how about giving us back the feature? At least you would make your honest customers happy.

Anyway, this is just another case of douchebags hurting douchbags. Nothing to see here, move along.

Sounds like a Honey Pot for computer viruses

[XxtraLarGe]

I wanted to go to the site to see if my name was on the list, but then I realized they're the types that would probably have the latest version of MacDefender just waiting for me.

Re:Sounds like a Honey Pot for computer viruses

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're dumb enough to install MacDefender, your name probably is on the list.

Re:Sounds like a Honey Pot for computer viruses

[phantomfive]

Use Lynx, or just turn off Javascript and java. As far as I know, there is no automatic way to install MacDefender without user interaction, but there are ways to be safe if you want to be extra sure. For an extra layer of protection, use a VMWare install or Ubuntu-live cd.

Re:Sounds like a Honey Pot for computer viruses

[Anonymous Coward]

The torrent is just txt files. Nothing to worry about there.

Re:Sounds like a Honey Pot for computer viruses

[Anonymous Coward]

I wanted to listed to one of their CDs, but then I realised they're the types that would probably have the latest version of the XCP root kit just waiting for me.

Re:Sounds like a Honey Pot for computer viruses

[Anonymous Coward]

Do it from a public computer; don't ever touch your own system for this

SONY SUCKS

[Anonymous Coward]

Big List of Sony's Crimes
===================
- Totally sucking balls
- Being an oppressive, money sucking super-organism
- Crash Bandicoot
- Installing rootkits and spyware on your computers, as a sadistic form of DRM
- Violating the GPL
- Violating your mom
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sony_Music_Entertainment_artists (With the exception of R.Kelly, clearly awesome dude)
- Disc Read Error
- Having a superior console
- Including OtherOS in the first place
- Etc...

Re:SONY SUCKS

[TheCount22]

Big List of Sony's Crimes
===================
- Totally sucking balls

No comment.

- Being an oppressive, money sucking super-organism

To be fair a business is there to make money.

- Crash Bandicoot

What?

- Installing rootkits and spyware on your computers, as a sadistic form of DRM

I have to agree that seems insanely unethical, disrespectful and criminal.

- Violating the GPL

Also illegal and insanely disrespectful to the people giving their work for free.

- Violating your mom

If my mom was writing GPL code or had Sony rootkits installed on her PC I would agree.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sony_Music_Entertainment_artists (With the exception of R.Kelly, clearly awesome dude)

No comment.

- Disc Read Error

Not relevant.

- Having a superior console

"Had" I think is the word you are looking for. Still having a BD player and Linux support did make it superior in my view at the time.

- Including OtherOS in the first place

Yes I agree with you 100%! They shouldn't remove features after a unit has been sold.

- Etc...

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[brainzach]

The hackers don't give a flying fuck about the customers either by releasing all their personal information on the Internet.

If they really cared about the customers, they would have released the information to a trusted 3rd party to verify instead of to the public. They decided not to do that because they knew releasing it to the public would cause a much greater financial loss to Sony at the expense of its customers. The Hackers have no moral high ground here.

Would've that happened if...

[pecila]

...Sony used unix-based servers instead?

Re:Would've that happened if...

[TheCount22]

...Sony used unix-based servers instead?

Yep.

Anon FTW!

[Cito]

Keep it up Anon, knock them bastards down so hard they would make more money running a lemonade stand outside of a preschool.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[creat3d]

Don't forget the arrests/raids.

2011?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm feeling back to the 90's

SSDD security:

[Hartree]

Same Sony. Different Day.

"With friends like these..."

[westlake]

...if sony came out and apologized for being asshats and promising to never do it again.

I wonder if the Slashdot poster will ever learn how deeply the masses have come to hate and fear the hacker - that they don't care about his motives or his causes - that they aren't making any fine distinctions between white hat and black hat.

They are on the same side as Sony in this.

It is the masses who make the Revolution. If the geek wants to know who will be first for the chop, he only has to look in the mirror.

Re:"With friends like these..."

[shutdown -r now]

They are on the same side as Sony in this.

Not exactly, no. They're just mad at everyone involved or thought to be involved in any way - Sony, hackers, Geohot and his fanbois etc - and would gladly put them all on the chopping block. The difference right now is that hackers are still anonymous, whereas Sony is not, so they're first on the line.

Re:"With friends like these..."

[Anonymous Coward]

They are on the same side as Sony in this.

You're deluded. The average citizen is becoming increasingly aware of SONY's crap, and the longer this plays out, the more the understand that someone is swatting back, for them, they didn't even know it could be done.

Massive political excuse for a crack down on...

[doctor_no]

Much like Lulzsec's PBS hack, this will hurt their cause more than it helps...

My concern is that the actions of these hackers will incite a response from governments around the world that will limit internet freedom for the rest of us...

With the breach in Lockheed, Google, and (maybe) a senator also happening this week. And with accusations this last week that the Chinese are out to get American secrets, high-profile hacks on major international companies, and the Pentagon declaring hacking an 'act of war', these series of events compressed into a short period of time will only create impetus for governments to crack down and create new laws that will restrict the internet.

Re:Massive political excuse for a crack down on...

[Kernel Krumpit]

and also, extending the analogy, how long will it take all us "white country folx" to act on the realization, as our oppressed brethren in recent news-worthy near-eastern countries have, that our leaders aren't ANY better? Just 'cos ya wear a suit and tie....... At least Europeans demonstrate collectively in large numbers. In the US, well, the biggest numbers congregate in hot-dog venues. "Buy a hot-dog for cancer research"! Sad. US pets get better treated than the US poor and sometimes homeless. Perhaps ethics and morality should be taught in schools? You know, coming from a real value system. The people that think "Is it legal" rather than "Is it ethical" are seriously misguided - from a higher paradigm. The US Government just threatened to seize all my property for $500 outstanding since 01/01/2011. Pathetic creatures rushing home at 5:00pm! I'm maxing out all my charge cards and going elsewhere. That'll show 'em!! No citations. You heard it here first.

Re:Massive political excuse for a crack down on...

[soupforare]

Could the Lulz Boat be flying false colours? All this sure would be a convenient way to push through some ridiculous legislation.

Re:Massive political excuse for a crack down on...

[Agent0013]

My concern is that the actions of these hackers will incite a response from governments around the world that will limit internet freedom for the rest of us...

With the breach in Lockheed, Google, and (maybe) a senator also happening this week. And with accusations this last week that the Chinese are out to get American secrets, high-profile hacks on major international companies, and the Pentagon declaring hacking an 'act of war', these series of events compressed into a short period of time will only create impetus for governments to crack down and create new laws that will restrict the internet.

I don't think it matters one bit. The people who run for government want more and more power. They will push for the laws you are afraid of for any reason they can find, or no reason at all. Perhaps these events will be their excuse. Or they will use another excuse at a later date. Whatever happens, they will find a way to pass the laws they want to put the citizens under an ever more present force of law!

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Etrigoth]

I actually agree but the the devils advocate in me says, if they did release this data in escrow, so to speak, the media wouldn't pay the attention it has done so far.

But yeah, it sucks badly that these so-called-hackers have publicly released innocent peoples docs.

Stop it already

[defaria]

Can we stop attacking Sony? I wanna play my games... Geeze!

How many...

[neiras]

How many of the Sony accounts with @gmail.com addresses in this release use the same password everywhere they go? A lot of people are going to get their Gmail accounts compromised here.

If I was sure that I wouldn't get stomped on for being an evil hacker, I'd write a script to notify the future victims. Oh well.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Wyatt Earp]

Are you high? The PSN hacks have mentioned everywhere from Penny Arcade to the Wall Street Journal.

Google - wsj sony and you'll see a long history of main street financial coverage of this situation.

This wont end for awhile.

[Anonymous Coward]

No one, anywhere can make sony secure enough to stop these hacks at this point. This has become a game for hackers now and it will continue. Sony is now a target to get picked on. And no security can protect them because security is created by man and if one man can build it there will be 2 dozen waiting in line to break it. There is no such thing as secure.

Re:This wont end for awhile.

[TheCount22]

No one, anywhere can make sony secure enough to stop these hacks at this point. This has become a game for hackers now and it will continue. Sony is now a target to get picked on. And no security can protect them because security is created by man and if one man can build it there will be 2 dozen waiting in line to break it. There is no such thing as secure.

Not as long as applications are written in languages like C and C++. And maybe not even until capability languages like E emerge.

Re:This wont end for awhile.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not as long as applications are written in languages like C and C++. And maybe not even until capability languages like E emerge.

Yes, it was an SQL injection, so it's definitely a problem with the C programming language.

But I think we might need to wait until languages like H^2 emerge, with self-programming capability super-agents to be _really_ secure.

Line of criminal thought

[JimboFBX]

It has been said that criminals try to rationalize their crimes often times by thinking that they are just playing by the rules of life, even if its not the rules of society. An example would be a car thief who finds a car unlocked in downtown New York. They might steal the vehicle and rationalize it as a sort of "finders keepers", where if they didn't steal it, someone else would come along and steal it instead. "If I don't, someone else will, so I might as well benefit". You might say that is a ridiculous assertion to make, but if you found a $50 laying in the parking lot, you would probably pick it up and keep it thinking that someone else would take it if you didn't, and any hope of the original owner finding their missing $50 is a lost cause.

So when someone does virtual breaking and entering because the virtual back door was virtually unlocked, you have to ask what line of thought is crossing their minds. When my neighbor's door is unlocked, should I enter it and steal their TV because I think someone else is bound to do it instead?

Re:Line of criminal thought

[TheCount22]

It has been said that criminals try to rationalize their crimes often times by thinking that they are just playing by the rules of life, even if its not the rules of society. An example would be a car thief who finds a car unlocked in downtown New York. They might steal the vehicle and rationalize it as a sort of "finders keepers", where if they didn't steal it, someone else would come along and steal it instead. "If I don't, someone else will, so I might as well benefit". You might say that is a ridiculous assertion to make, but if you found a $50 laying in the parking lot, you would probably pick it up and keep it thinking that someone else would take it if you didn't, and any hope of the original owner finding their missing $50 is a lost cause.

So when someone does virtual breaking and entering because the virtual back door was virtually unlocked, you have to ask what line of thought is crossing their minds. When my neighbor's door is unlocked, should I enter it and steal their TV because I think someone else is bound to do it instead?

While I don't condemn what these guys are doing. I have to admit it does make me smile every time Sony gets hacked. A bit like seeing a bully failing a math exam.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me change the analogy slightly. Say that your neighbour stores TVs for other people, and leaves their door unlocked. Sometimes, thieves steal some of those TVs. Here are a few of your options:

1. Tell your neighbour that his door is unlocked. If he doesn't listen, tell the people whose TVs he's storing.
2. Join in on the stealing action, taking and selling TVs.
3. Steal all the TVs, and tell their owners that you've done it.

Option 1 is the responsible, white-hat thing to do. Option 2 is the black-hat option. Option 3 - which corresponds to the actions of LulzSec in this case - is kinda grey. On the one hand, they've exposed a bunch of people to getting hurt. On the other hand, they didn't benefit from it (they published the data instead of exploiting it), and the people will probably be hurt less than if the data had been exploitable in a methodical way after a for-profit hack.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

So when someone does virtual breaking and entering because the virtual back door was virtually unlocked, you have to ask what line of thought is crossing their minds. When my neighbor's door is unlocked, should I enter it and steal their TV because I think someone else is bound to do it instead?

Agree 100%, you would either lock the door for them or contact them to inform them that they left the door unlocked.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Err the money was LOST, the Car was simply insecure. How is there even a comparision to make there?

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Frosty Piss]

It has been said that criminals try to rationalize their crimes often times by thinking that they are just playing by the rules of life...

But they aren't hackers! They're "security researchers"!

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

So when someone does virtual breaking and entering because the virtual back door was virtually unlocked, you have to ask what line of thought is crossing their minds. When my neighbor's door is unlocked, should I enter it and steal their TV because I think someone else is bound to do it instead?

I disagree the door might have been unlocked, but it was closed and it would not appear unlocked unless you intentionally walk up the driveway with the intention to test if the door is locked while wearing gloves and a mask.

That requires a lot more planning and evil intent that the situations you describe. Id say they fully know what they are doing.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

This line of thinking breaks down in the digital world. Case in point: open WiFi access points. If I see an open AP blaring its SSID out, that is not only opportunity but invitation to come use it. The handoff that occurs when it gives me an IP address via DHCP validates this.

That having been said, I don't condone hacking (though SQL injection? Really Sony?) and fully grant that this situation with malicious intent is not the same - but the analogy you posted is too broad and, thus, dangerous.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[ecorona]

A court of law does not decide whether something is ethical or not. It only decides whether something is legal or not. Corporations have a huge influence on what becomes "legal" and as such, get away with things a lot of people consider unethical (e.g. removing a linux install option from the PS3 after it was bought and paid for or making it illegal to open and modify a piece of electronic equipment after it is purchased). Assuming the neighbors is just a regular neighbor and never fuked you over the same way SONY has, then it is an improper comparison to make.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, busting into Sony's servers is quite wrong.. but Sony abusing the legal system to intimidate some random hacker is also wrong. The real lesson here is that there are repercussions to your actions.. based on the concepts of right and wrong, not legal and illegal.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

So when someone does virtual breaking and entering because the virtual back door was virtually unlocked, you have to ask what line of thought is crossing their minds. When my neighbor's door is unlocked, should I enter it and steal their TV because I think someone else is bound to do it instead?

It would be closer to think, "My neighbor beats up my children every day and I am powerless to stop that because they are bigger than me and their uncle is a police officer, this is the only way I can hurt them and hey lets make it public that I managed to steal from them because maybe that will shine light on them and their wrong doings"

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Grow up, check the laws of information physics, neurology, and the most basic mechanics of social interaction between life-forms, for once in a while. You're so caught in socially conditioned pseudo-morals, you sound like a child.

You think like the MAFIAA. You can't tell real physical objects from non-physical information. You act as if they were the same.
Which, in actual reality, is not the case.
No idea if you really hallucinate that those are the rules of society, but they're not. Because that, and I have studied this, is physically impossible.

Hence all arguments and analogies you build on it, are invalid.

Information transfer only has one single rule: Trust. Between humans. No exception. Ever. (Even the cable you use is made by a machine made by a human.)

Your whole concept of "ownership" is beyond delusional.
Ownership is control. Period.
There is no physical law that magically makes it "yours", when someone else took it from you. You have to take it back. And be stronger than him.
Which you may be able to, because you have a government backing you up. Which works only, if the government sides with you, and the taker doesn't have a even stronger backup.
The laws of the jungle still are the only laws.

Also, your concept of good and bad is that of a child.
Good and bad are relative. Or in Zen view: There is no good or bad. There are only situations.
Your bad, is someone else's good. And your good is someone else's bad. Because resources are limited.
But somehow, you act like your personal view (helping you) is the only right one.

About the TV: The sole fact that you *asked* what you "should" do, shows how passive your thinking is.
How about *making a statement*?
I know, that the person who takes what he can get, always wins in evolution. So yeah, if someone is so stupid that you can gain a evolutionary advantage, and you don't go for it, you will lose natural selection, and deserve it.

But hey, you're not an actual individual anyway. So you never ran in the race for yourself at all. You ran for someone else. You're more like a tool. A limb of a body. Not an individual. Let alone a leader or a grown-up.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Did your neighbor sell you (and other people you know) malware-laden audio CDs and conduct other immoral business?

Law and Justice are concepts, and when unified, you get social harmony. But just as you can have Law without Justice (which is how the balance seems to have tipped in favor of corporations now), you can have Justice without Law (which is how Anonymous and friends are trying to counter-balance that).

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Your.Master]

I don't think whether they benefit has anything to do with the ethics. It's more important whether they harmed people. So if that's grey it's a very very dark grey.

And I wouldn't say this is telling the owners that you've done it. It's more like "steal all the TVs, then take out an ad in the classified section of the local newspaper mentioning that you'd done it".

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

You're playing ridiculous semantic games while pretending not to understand an analogy. Congratulations.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

An example would be a car thief who finds a car unlocked in downtown New York. They might steal the vehicle and rationalize it as a sort of "finders keepers", where if they didn't steal it, someone else would come along and steal it instead. "If I don't, someone else will, so I might as well benefit". You might say that is a ridiculous assertion to make, but if you found a $50 laying in the parking lot, you would probably pick it up and keep it thinking that someone else would take it if you didn't, and any hope of the original owner finding their missing $50 is a lost cause.

No but that analogy has always been ridiculous even when the source you didn't bother to cite first said it. A car is not going to get blown away into the river by the wind, nor will it get torn up in the street by car tires, and it will not wash into the storm drains by the rain.
It is also completely overlooking the fact that the $50 bill is money and not actually a commodity. The car has a specific ownership, no matter who happens to be driving it. But the money is a bearer instrument; possession is by definition ownership.
It's also not likely the former owner of the $50 placed it there on purpose, expecting to return and find it unharmed.

Besides, it's not a matter of thinking someone else will pick up the $50, that's a certainty and the vast majority in NY City will pick it up. However, despite media portrayals to the contrary, MOST people in NY City will not steal your car if you leave it unlocked, or even if you left it running. Which is not the same thing as saying that it won't get stolen, both items will get stolen quickly. But the money will be picked up by the first person who sees it, while the car will only get stolen by the first car thief who sees it.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Brawijaya]

So if I stole the money in bank; which's belongs to other people; and then tell the bank I stole it, and show the money to the people, and return it to bank. DO I GO TO JAIL OR NOT ?? Maybe people will cheers me up and said "YOU ARE A HERO !!! YOU SHOW US THAT THESE BANK IT'S NOT SAVE !!!"

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Issarlk]

I think it's not so dark grey because those millions of accounts where probably silently stolen by true criminals earlier, but now thanks to Lulzsec everyone knows their Sony password is compromised.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

When my neighbor's door is unlocked, should I enter it and steal their TV because I think someone else is bound to do it instead?

I don't know about you, good Sir, but as far as I am concerned, you have made a convincing case! I shall be sure to steal my neighbor's TV the next time I get the chance to do so.

(I jest, I jest...)

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Venerence]

The purpose of the hackers is to damage the company that they have no other method of attacking. They consider Sony's actions deplorable. More importantly, they see Sony's bending of the legal system -- to strongarm dissenters -- as something they need to fight, but only have one avenue of doing so. It doesn't matter to them that people get caught in the crossfire, in fact they prefer it because the more sensational they make the story, the more people will be afraid to use Sony's products.

Bottom line is you got the analogy wrong. They aren't virtual thieves. They're virtual terrorists.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, if you're not a criminal you might do one of two things:
    1. neighbor is cool: let him know his door is unlocked so he can take care of it before someone takes advantage, or
    2. neighbor is a dick: go inside and dump the TV on to it's face, just because.

That being said, I'm sure Sony was aware of the vulnerabilities and didn't do anything about it.

Re:Line of criminal thought

[Anonymous Coward]

but it's not sony's TV it will be more like they left the door open with a bunch of costumers TVs laying around

Re:Line of criminal thought

[msailors]

I see what you are saying, but unless Anonymous is using or selling the information they have "stolen", then it's not the same as what you are suggesting. Instead, it's basically the same thing as that show that used to be on TV, where an ex-burglar would break into people's homes just to show them how vulnerable they were, and then at the end of the show they would implement tighter home security. Same thing here.....kinda.

Am I alone...

[SlowGenius]

...in thinking that it's way past time for Sony's leadership to commit ritual seppuku?(*) Failing that, a simple dissolution of the company's assets and returning them to shareholders could work. I mean, sheesh. (*) I seem to recall such a thing slightly helping Toshiba's once badly soiled image in the wake of a certain 3-axis milling machine/espionage incident. Not that I've forgiven Toshiba yet...

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Anonymous Coward]

In many ways, the MPAA has lost. We have to keep in mind what they were really trying to hold on to, the same old way of doing things. They have lost that battle, have been forced to change and are slowly doing so. It isn't that Kazaa or Napster or any one thing caused it, nor that it was some kind of unified (or righteous) movement. It was a bunch of factors mixed together. Their rigidity and shortsightedness being the largest culprit.

Basically, the MPAA has been forced into a change they should have been making anyway.

I see the same thing going on here, actually. There are multiple things going on, on different levels, simultaneously. The main thing going on here is this: "lulz", Removing a promised functionality from a device. Telling Sony to stop doing business the way it has. People are fed up.
Remember the timeline of what has transpired here.
1.) Sony removes OtherOS option from PS3. A gaff. A small number of people bought the PS3 for this feature alone. They were forced into either a) upgrading firmware and losing said ability in order to keep using the console for games, etc. or b) buying ANOTHER ps3. Basically, they fucked over some people (not new for Sony).
2.) Communities of customers begin seeking a way to return this functionality (one that was a selling point for many and one that shouldn't have been removed in the first place.) No big deal, no one really cared.
3.) GeoHot gives people back the ability to do this. Again, not many people cared. Except Sony.
4.) Sony opts for the unpopular and morally wrong thing to do - sue (bully) GeoHot. A major gaff. This outrages people even further AND does nothing to fix the problem of this workaround. People who didn't previously care, now care a lot.
5.) Now that their customers have been pissed on multiple times, some of them decide to piss off Sony.
6.) They decide to perform a DDoS and to bit of a nuisance to Sony. ("lulz" ensue)
7.) Once they do this, someone decided to perform a SQL injection. (fuck it!)
8.) From this, according to them, they got access to EVERYTHING. Also, according to them, they are shocked and appalled. According to them, they decide to expose this negligence on the part of Sony in order to warn its customers. ("lolholyshitwtfbbq - guize, look!")
This also
A) embarrasses Sony ("lulz")
B) gains the attention of mass media ("lulz")
C) gets various figures up in arms about some (non-existent) "dangerous hacktivist group" ("lulz")

As for the customers whose data has been compromised or released, it is an unfortunate side-effect; collateral damage, if you will.

In the process, a couple of valuable and enlightening things have been learned by many parties:
1) Sony has shitty security. - This is news to many people who had assumed that Sony would be pretty safe to deal with, being such a large company. Surprising, a bit unsettling, but somewhat forgivable being that corporations often look to cut costs. For those with some knowledge it is disturbing in and of itself since they aren't PCI compliant. This may be illegal (criminal) in some states. (AFAIK there is no federal law regarding PCI compliance).
2) Sony keeps customer data in the clear. - (I am glad I'm not a customer. - They REALLY must not care about their customers). Not only is this not PCI compliant it is JUST STUPID. It also has me convinced (along with everything else, including their history of rootkits, etc..) to NEVER be a customer of Sony.
3) Sony is a bully who either hates its customers, or doesn't want them anymore.

As for the release of the customer I see it as a positive, not a negative. Those who have had their data compromised can now know this for certain, see it in black and white even, and take appropriate action to protect themselves from possible wrongdoing. Besides, who knows whether or not this data had already been compromised? Apparently, it was trivial to do so and thus it would not surprise me if it had already been compromised before all of this. No one would have known this had

Do I smell a scam? My account not being present?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm from the NL and I know how to work torrent.

I'm sceptical. "We don't have the funding..." and yet they know that with torrent you can share the hosting (they put up torrents). So why can't you put it all online?

Plain text doesn't take too much bandwith when compressed and we all download entire dvd's these days. What's the problem ?

SO I downloaded a very meager database and the passwords I saw looked like something straight from a common "what not to use" database.

Quite frankly I don't think this is for real; looks like some guys lifting on the attention of others.

LulzBoat == honeypot

[Anonymous Coward]

They just waiting for you to go to their site and start downloading.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Sinthet]

Unfortunately, these people's information is the casualty in "hackers v. Sony". Though, I guess its not the information itself, but its privacy which is the real casualty. Its a shame, but I hope it'll lead to better security practices eventually, either by Sony, or at least by other companies trying to avoid the embarrassment that Sony is being continually put through.

you must be the proverbial sucker born every min..

[Anonymous Coward]

if it took you that much $$$ to figure out Sony. And now to feel better, you want Stringer's head on a platter! How about a public harakiri of the top three Sony executives I bet you are also an Apple fan.

LulzSec got indirectly slashdotted

[rebelwarlock]

Though this entry and the article contain no links to it, their homepage appears to have been bogged down by too many people googling "lulzboat".

Not a hack

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh, script kiddies give real hackers bad names.

Hackers do it for the challenge, then write papers on the vulnerabilities of the system they entered. These people are thieves, plain and simple. Granted it's Sony's IT administration's fault for having such a vulnerable system to begin with, but this is getting out of hand. Millions of people, innocent people, are effected every time they "think" they're doing some 1337 hack, when in fact, they're just dumb.

Hackers today, real hackers, are the ones the CIA/DHS/Secret Service/IBM/Cisco, etc contract out to to find holes in systems, takes one to know one. Kids who plaster crap on websites need to get out of their parents basement and go get laid. There's nothing cool about stealing usernames and passwords unless you intend to sell them on the open (black) market for a hefty sum, and even then you don't announce it to the world that "you did it". That's just a giant "kick me" sign.

Cyber attacks are still attacks, and have been successfully prosecuted in the US as an actual assault as if it were a human being. There's also Cyber Terrorism laws on the books as well, meaning that if you "terrorize" a computer, you're a terrorist yourself, and thus the terrorism laws apply to you. (as you can see, in the US, that really doesn't mean much anymore)

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[neight108]

frankly I don't think Sony gives a flying f_ck

I would love it if Sony gave me a flying f_ck: http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/rc/b527/

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[TheCount22]

I agree with you this solves nothing. But then again Sony has only created problems recently. As a honest law abiding customer I ask that they give me back what I paid for. Thats all. If they decide not to I will simply not purchase another Sony product again. No need to hack anything just stop buying their products.

In any case if my information was among the hacked accounts I would be furious right now.

OK, Guys, Really?

[Greyfox]

You've proved your point, that you have SONY at your mercy and can bend them over a barrel, their exposed ass cheeks ready to accept your thrusting manhood whenever you want to. At this point it's starting to feel like in school when everyone discovered that the shit-talking bully would cry like a little girl if you so much as popped him one and everyone started making him their bitch. After a while it's just pathetic. Sure he was loud and obnoxious and talked a lot of shit, and was probably also slightly retarded, but after a couple of weeks of sending him crying home you just started to feel kind of bad for him. It's time to let it go. Everyone realizes that guy's just a big pussy. That's the message I guess I have here. Sony. You kind of feel bad for them because they're just a big pussy. Yeah.

Re:OK, Guys, Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

In your scenario Sony isn't some shit talking bully we should take pity on, he is the jock that made your life hell for the last 3 years, constantly tormenting you but being protected by authority because of his athletic skills, you finally have the upper hand, and the rest of the students have your back, should you ease up? or take it as far as you can?

Sony has shit on consumers for the last 10 years, fuck them, by exposing customers data, the hackers are making people less likely to do business with them, this is the invisible hand of the market correcting bad behavior from a company that attacks its own customers.

Sony wont go bankrupt, they wont even be permanently damaged, but other companies will pay attention and think, "hey, if we install root kits, sue our own customers, take away features from hardware that is already sold, maybe this will happen to us too."

The higher the cost that is added to Sony's bad behavior, the less likely other companies will adopt the same practices

As a white hat you need to be perfectly right, every single time, a black hat only needs to be lucky once for you to lose, and if you piss off the internet......

Re:OK, Guys, Really?

[swilver]

I'm not feeling bad for sony yet.

Please continue.

Comedic?

[YesIAmAScript]

Posting people's emails and passwords?

It's not comedic. These people are stealing user info and posting it and you say Sony looks like arrogant nincompoops?

Uh-huh.

Re:Comedic?

[Anonymous Coward]

"none of the information it took from Sony was encrypted" so yeah sonny is arrogant.

Re:Comedic?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is sony storing passwords in the clear to begin with? Yeah, that definitely makes them nincompoops. Being hacked is forgiveable. Storing passwords in plaintext, not so much.

Re:Comedic?

[Anonymous Coward]

More like, they are incompetent, lazy and arrogant bastards.

Re:Comedic?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you take yourself very seriously but eventually you'll get over yourself.

Re:Comedic?

[Anonymous Coward]

Stealing? The barn door was wide open! It's not like they used any sophisticated hack/social engineering: they probably just used a stupid automated SQL injection/fuzzing tool.

You should take into account that it's Sony job to guarantee that any data you provide them is safe (not the hackers'). After all, if your MSN IM account got hacked, you'd probably blame Microsoft as much as the hackers.

These series of attacks on Sony infrastructure just show how lax and careless they are regarding their customers' data. For $deity's sake, it's not that hard to run an automated SQL injection tool on your own websites to make sure they aren't vulnerable to (at least) basic attacks and they're a huge corporation with lots of resources and IT know-how, so they have NO excuses (I don't work on IT and even I do that on my websites).

Would it be better if some random hacker just did the same as LulzSec and kept the stolen data to himself, taking advantage of hacked email accounts, without any public disclosure? Would it be better if this was done by profit-driven hackers, instead of trollish hackers? I think not.

In my humble opinion, LulzSec are providing a service to everyone by showing that the PSN hack was not an atypical situation: pretty much every website run by Sony seems to be vulnerable to some exploit.

Yes, what they did was illegal (obviously) and I don't usually condone illegal behaviour, but I can see how LulzSec's actions are (at least in the long-term) useful for consumers: everyone (who follows the news) should now know that Sony is not to be trusted with important personal details and that they should think twice before handing out their CC number to Sony. Also, the more Sony gets hacked and publicly shamed, the more effort they will apply to guarantee that these situations, which compromise their customers' data, will not occur again (yes, I know... wishful thinking).

tl;dr: Your customer-serviceprovider relationship is with Sony, not with LulzSec. If your account got hacked, you should be angry at the ones that allowed that due to gross negligence (Sony).

Re:Comedic?

[Anonymous Coward]

ROFLMAO. Umad?

The price we pay...

[SirAstral]

This is the price we pay each and every time we sign up for a product or service that literally takes your rights away. When was the last you actually read a contract, EULA, TOS, or any other potentially legally binding agreement?

I do not feel sorry for the consumer, neither do I feel sorry for Sony. This is the natural course of things when governments facilitate the oppression of people via corporate interests. Let's outline a couple of examples. When you sign up for a bank account you are agreeing to give the government complete access to your accounts, detailed information on your money habits, and if decided that you did not want that you don't get a bank account! How about a ticket to board a plane? You just willfully gave up your 4th amendment rights. Did you want to keep them? Stop buying tickets, so long as you continue to fund those that seek to abuse you then you deserve the abuse that which you have so ignorantly purchased!

If you want the right to protect your privacy then you are just going to have to work in ways that actually protect your privacy. Use a pseudonym everywhere you can. Only use your real name if you must and actually have no choice in the matter. When your information is stolen, consider joining up with fellow victims and getting some legal action going.

As long as you keep giving Sony your money and your information do you think they will give a single shit about you? Hell no, they will only learn if they see their bottom line hit, it is the ONLY mechanism you can influence a corporation with and gain the most positive results. Writing your congresswhore to create a law will actually do more harm than good.

Hey Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

So, looking back on things, was it really worth removing Other OS? Look at all the trouble it has caused you. Oh, and not to mention, your console was still hacked to pieces anyways. Yup, that was really worth it.

You deserve every last bit of this and in the end, I hope it puts you out of business. You won't be missed.

Re:Hey Sony

[Ash-Fox]

So, looking back on things, was it really worth removing Other OS? Look at all the trouble it has caused you. Oh, and not to mention, your console was still hacked to pieces anyways. Yup, that was really worth it.

You deserve every last bit of this and in the end, I hope it puts you out of business. You won't be missed.

Sounds like this AC was all sore, mad and is now trying to ride on these events, rewriting them as his/her 'revenge'.

Petty.

I haven't purchased anything SONY in years

[NotQuiteReal]

At least as far as I know.

Back in the day, I used to think "Sony" you can't go wrong! That was when they had good TV sets and such. I think I had an early digital camera and a 8mm camcorder from them, and my folks had nice TV's, etc.

Then there were weird memory sticks, then music CD's with root kits, etc. I have not purchased Sony products in years. Probably never will again, there are so many alternatives.

Once bitten, twice shy.

The hackers will be punished. Severely.

[jmcbain]

The hackers cannot elude the authorities forever, and the first among those caught will be undoubtedly punished in the most extreme manner possible, quite possibly with life in prison for committing felonies. I will also not be surprised if new US federal laws will be instated to crack down on this activity with the end result being that the rest of America will end up being monitored even more. Thanks a lot, jerks.

Re:The hackers will be punished. Severely.

[Tolkien]

Sony has been begging to be smacked around by mob justice for a LONG time. Now it's finally happening. I say good.

Re:The hackers will be punished. Severely.

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh huh. Until the mob turns on you. Mob justice is no justice at all.

Re:The hackers will be punished. Severely.

[hawkinspeter]

How do you know the hackers are American?

Re:The hackers will be punished. Severely.

[Stone2065]

Um, really.

Yes, the "hackers" CAN evade capture for as long as they can. The sheer number of criminals that were never caught boggles the mind. Also, why in hell would the USA give two cold turds about it legally? Sony is a JAPANESE company. That's like saying the USA is going to legislate laws for other countries. Just because Japan apparently has no problem with the CRIMINAL way Sony was supposedly handling their online security, doesn't mean that the USA is going to legislate against it, other than the damages against USA citizens that were harmed because of Sony's neglect of security.

Now, you can plug in that other brain cell, and fire it up... it could use the exercise.

Re:The hackers will be punished. Severely.

[repapetilto]

So are you in favor of this happening or not?

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Archangel Michael]

Don't care about A customer, because you have plenty others is one thing. To not care about ANY customer and you end up without any. And the difference between A and ANY is a NY minute, which is how long it will take to collapse a once powerful company.

If I was on the board of directors for Sony, I'd start sacking people from the top. Fuck their golden parachutes you're FIRED. Try to collect your "bonus" for running the company into the ground, I dare ya.

columbine

[Anonymous Coward]

i like the idea as a whole. columbine was bad but it stopped extreme bullying in schools, this is bad for sonys customers, but hey sony has done some pretty bad stuff and horrible security while suing everyone who wants to torrent an overpriced movie.. or sony punishing you because you downloaded that song you bought on vinyl 50 years ago. "oh you didnt pay us again, so were gonna rape you in court"

"you have children? too bad, they are going to foster care because little sally downloaded metallica"

screw sony, ima send lulz some bitcoin in hopes they do more attacks.

Boring

[thetsguy]

Now this is getting boring..I have even lost the score. Seems like honeypots are more difficult than Sony network

I'm all for it- keep it up

[gearloos]

I had a PS3 account but now that its already compromised I say give it all you got. These asshats (SONY) have flat out shown they feel they can do whatever they want (root kits) and have not the slightest respect for their customers by calling them all thieves to begin with (movies with the dam FBI pages you have to sit through , DRM, etc...on and on). I hope they break these tards and show them they can only push so far before you get pushed back. Good job !

Re:I'm all for it- keep it up

[Ash-Fox]

These asshats (SONY) have flat out shown they feel they can do whatever they want (root kits) and have not the slightest respect for their customers by calling them all thieves

I only remember one root kit from a decade ago which Sony was involved with. They didn't even create it, just licensed the software from another company who had promising it would stop piracy. Sony withdrew said root kit a long, long time ago when it was shown not only to be useless against piracy but a hindrance to customers.

However, since you used the plural form of 'root kit' and I failed to find any other root kits Sony was involved with on Google... I look forward to hearing from you with links about these other root kits they apparently released which are all about doing what they want, not having the slightest respect etc

Re:I'm all for it- keep it up

[Combatso]

well, there were multiple copies of that rootkit, one on each CD... that could explain the plural... either way, I wanna join the iran internet... maybe they wont have lulz or sony... im so sick of this crap happening, its getting harder and harder to fight for an open internet when the media is saturated with dicks pulling this shit... its one thing to find an unlocked door and report it to the world, its another to fuck over all the customers, over and over again... I was not affected byt it all, I could never afford Sony shit anyways... well, I have a 32" Trinitron, but I dont think it knows my name,.. I have to wonder, when they are done with Sony.... whos next?

Re:I'm all for it- keep it up

[Ash-Fox]

well, there were multiple copies of that rootkit, one on each CD... that could explain the plural

Not really, that's like saying someone "made viruses" because there are many identical copies of the same virus. That doesn't fit with normal conventions of communication in the English language.

its one thing to find an unlocked door and report it to the world, its another to fuck over all the customers, over and over again

Indeed.

I have to wonder, when they are done with Sony.... whos next?

Likely any other big name, where they stumble across some script kiddie method of exploiting them.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Anonymous Coward]

How many "emergency" legal powers is the general public willing to tolerate. How insignificant (to them) an act demands the ability to do anything the lawmakers want? I couldn't give a fuck about SONY's inability to protect themselves, as far as I'm concerned they have demonstrated the government's unwillingness to support its citizens, and this is a non-violent response to the lack of representation people are perceiving. In a nutshell, now that rebellion has started, it'll take more than stern words and a few new laws to quell it. I suspect the greater concern, for the government, is that this public action is regarded as successful, encouraging more people to take matters into their own hands. I mean, fuck, it's not like we're protecting democracy any more.

regardless, it's a major breach, again

[dutchwhizzman]

No matter who you're calling the asshats here, it's a major breach. Sony may have been bad. They may or may not deserve the wrath of a group of "hackers" for whatever reason. The "hackers" may act irresponsibly. The fact is and remains that for some reason the security of multiple large Sony websites is not up to standard. If anything, Sony should be treated as an "insecure area" of the Internet until they have proven they have had a redesign and implementation of their entire Internet presence. As long as they are treating these hacks as incidents, they will get hacked again and again.

derp

[lulzsec]

Well, I got the username! Now what? :) Despite the name, I don't agree with the release of such a big swathe of personal information, that doesn't help anyone. Then again, considering how Sony treats their community and their obvious lack of basic security, I don't feel sorry for them. I do feel sorry for the users caught up in this saga, though. Sure, LulzSec have full responsibility for their actions, but at least they're releasing the info to everybody - I'd much rather have my info in the public than have it stolen and used behind my back. I'm sure Sony are offering the ID theft protection to these users, too, but there's really little need for it as it would be fairly easy to show that your data was well-known in the public domain, therefore surely it'd be easier to prove your case if something did happen.

Sony needs to change direction...

[Anonymous Coward]

At this point, the only thing that will save their reputation is a name change.

Instead of "SONY Corporation", they should name themselves...

"SORRY Corporation"

Thank you, exactly

[unassimilatible]

This criminal organization LulzSec hurt the end user. Isn't that what the Slashdot crowd claims to be for? LulzSec exhibited utter lawlessness that, if perpetrated by Sony or Apple or Google or the Department of Homeland Security, it would have all the supposed Slashdot "Libertarians" howling. Read my sig for more details.

I can't believe how many people here are defending the action of LulzSec (not the hack, the posting of info, utterly and completely indefensible).

Re:Thank you, exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because there's many hypocrites on /. who are unable to move beyond mob mentality and think for themselves. Sad, but true.

Re:Thank you, exactly

[drinkypoo]

I can't believe how many people here are defending the action of LulzSec (not the hack, the posting of info, utterly and completely indefensible).

Corporations are made up of people. A corporation is more than its executives and employees; it is also its customers, without whom it cannot exist. That list of customer names is a list of traitors who have funded some of the worst corporate behavior of all time. To each and every person on that list, I say fuck you for helping Sony put rootkits on people's computers; fuck you for helping Sony kill Lik-Sang.

I would not participate in such a hack or a release of data, but I have no sympathy for any of those people. And keep in mind, I used to give Sony money too; I've owned a bunch of Sony stuff, I still have some of it. The last Sony console I bought was a PS2, and I still have that. I'm not about to jettison the stuff because Sony is evil. But at the same time, I don't kid myself about whether or not it was evil to buy that stuff. I knew Sony was bad, and I gave them money anyway.

Indeed, by extension, virtually all of us are fairly evil in this country, because we're all abstracting away murder for pleasure through our lifestyles. When you fill up your car, or buy some cheap plastic crap that was put together with slave labor in a toxic facility, or even turn on the tube and suck down some watts produced with coal power, you're buying quite a bit of manslaughter, and often no small amount of murder as well. You're funding the pollution of the planet on which we all live. And I am too. Let's not lie to ourselves about it. Does it make us bad people? That's a judgment call that there's little point in making. It does make many of our actions hypocritical at best. And if we don't at least try to move ourselves in the right direction, then I think it does make us evil.

We can all argue about what the watershed line is, but I believe that giving Sony money post-Rootkit is especially evil. Once they proved their mentality regarding the customer (although some might argue they did that with Betamax) it became not just an evil act but also one of utmost stupidity to give Sony any money. Sony wants to squeeze all that it can out of you and discard you and it does not care what it does to you in the process. But does this significantly differentiate it from any other publicly held corporation?

Wow. It's posts like this that is making me

[unassimilatible]

really hate the Slashdot community, if this is the criminal shit you all stand for.

Re:Wow. It's posts like this that is making me

[Tolkien]

I don't usually stand for criminal shit as you put it, but Sony has been begging for comeuppance for a long time. Is that more acceptable to you?

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Anonymous Coward]

repeatedly losing this much customer data or really any customer data is a serious public relations blunder

No it's not. To you or me maybe, but we are irrelevant. The vast majority doesn't care and doesn't understand possible consequences. Not to mention they are easily distracted by something shiny, e.g. free games and all is forgiven and forgotten. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony came out ahead PR-wise as far as your Average Joe (tm) is concerned.

This is very "dog bites man".

[91degrees]

Sony hacked again is getting so old it's becoming non-news. Perhaps Slashdot should only report when Sony isn't hacked.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Serpents]

I suspect that the Sony's execs will focus on finding the hackers and having them punished in an extreme and exemplary fashion instead of fixing their flawed security. After all the hackers made them look like a bunch of incompetent and overpaid half-wits they are, and who cares if their consumers have to pay for their blatant disregard for security?

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, they would care if some AG finally got his ass up and sued them for gross negligence, because that is what their handling is security is at the very least.
A credit card company with balls would also consider terminating their contracts with them.
Both would make Sony care. And both have a lot of influence on how to consider these hacks. If it was some obscure holes that took a lot of effort to exploit and even more to get at customer data it would be one thing, and publishing customer data would be completely unacceptably unethical.
However if security is at the level of "any script kiddie can access all their customer data" I start being less sure and thinking "well, publishing it may actually be an overall win to the customers, at least it is more likely Sony has to act and it's not unlikely a lot of criminals already had the data anyway".

Noose the hackers for good!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Empire of Japan has capital punishment in law and it is being applied in practice. Serious criminals are hanged. Let's post a few hackers on gallows and that's it. Governments should not be sissy, as it is impossible to maintain public order without public executions. Hackers are anarchists and there is a worthy tradition of governments executing anarchists.A hacker who wrecks data is not any different from an anarchist who throws bombs at kings or attacks queens with a file. An anarchist is always the enemy of mankind even if he calles himself a hacker.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[ommerson]

This is currently getting coverage on the front page of the BBC News website - both the domestic and international front pages - ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/ and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/ respectively). Coverage doesn't get much more mainstream than this.

The real problem has been identified

[Anonymous Coward]

So *that* is the problem: Sony just regards the Law (like the rule to keeping the customers data safe) as something that is extorted from them (its not in their benefit to agree to it), and therefore just ignores it.

Now it all makes sense!

Old courtesan

[tchernobog]

Sony is becoming the bitch of the Internet. Every hole is getting someone through. Soon enough it will be too abused to be appealing to anyone. I already see mascara dripping from Stringer's face.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[vegiVamp]

Given that their bottom line can't support another investment like for the PS3 I'd say they're hurting already.

This is why...

[Kamiza Ikioi]

... we need to allow the President powers to shut down sites dangerous to national security. Sony is dangerous to national security. /sarcasm

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL @ the idiot

Second headline on the BBC's international news website (which I believe is the most-read news website in the world): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13636704

Cretin

Let's change strategy...

[Anonymous Coward]

... and post a breaking news each day, if any, that Sony haven't been compromised.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Grygus]

If you're on the board of directors then "sacking people from the top" would include you, wouldn't it? Isn't that precisely why this doesn't happen?

unencrypted again

[Seth024]

I was hoping Sony would have increased the security of their system. With everyone being forced to enter a new password they could at least encrypt it this time around.

It serves them right to still be this unconcerned with security to get hacked again.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[delinear]

Unfortunately the story is just "Sony attacked by hackers", and then a bunch of experts commenting on why we need tougher laws against hackers. There's no commentary on what drove the hackers to act in the first place or how the hacks were even possible, no experts commenting that if we had better protection for consumers and more regulation of companies who hold onto critical user data that this might all be moot. Media is biased, sure this will be reported, but it will be reported in an entirely one-sided manner.

I was on 4chan when the hack got posted

[Eulogistics]

Specifically, I was browsing /v/ and a new thread popped up: "GUISE SONY HACKED AGAIN FREE COUPONS AND USER INFORMATION! xD xD xD. HERE'S A LINK TO THE USER INFO!!!1!" I'm pretty certain it got spammed on multiple boards. The thread continued with people using the information they got from the link to log into peoples' Facebooks and G-mails posting private photos and e-mails of sensitive nature. Now I'm not surprised Anonymous (the collective of 4chan users) immediately picked up this ball and took off at a sprint, but I am surprised that Lulz Sec had the gall to put that user information out there like that. I don't have any Sony accounts and I haven't had any kind of personal threat from any of this, but i am disgusted that millions of users are now getting face-fucked by the bottom crust of the internet. If you're going to attack Sony, then attack Sony: they could've downloaded and posted the 3.5 million music coupon codes or something. But these Sony users are largely innocent bystanders; it's not necessary to throw them under the bus like this.

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you say "false flag op"? Lot of network security firms have been lobbying Congress over the last 3 years with former Special Advisor to the President on Cybersecurity Richard Clark leading charge on ramping up the hysteria on "Cyberwarfare" These network security firms (like HB Gary Federal) are already getting lucrative contracts from the DoD and looking to get more. And here's the thing, security firms like HB Gary Federal are playing both sides of the fence here. They not only partner with computer security firms like McAffee to sell defensive software like intrusion detection, heuristic antiviral scanning, etc., but they also are guns for hire when it comes to selling offensive software like rootkits, social media identity forgery, etc., to law enforcement, intelligence services, and other corporations. It's the devil theory of war for the cyberage coming to fruition.

Campaign?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Sont attacks seems to a organized effeort to tear down credibility. It's not about money or honour. If so, who's behind it?

Still no game developer suing Sony?

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of agreements does Sony have with game developers that publish games exclusively on PSN-Store? These guys are screwed BIG-TIME because of Sony's incompetence. Imagine e.g. developers of Might & Magic Clash of Heroes. The game was rated as "amazing" by IGN.uk but they were unfortunate enough to release it just before the first PSN hack. Not only I was unable to purchase the game, but especially after the new incident I doubt if I will every buy anything from the PSN store.

You've got it all wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all forget the word 'criminal'. Everyone, criminal or not, tries to rationalise what they do. You are no different.

The word criminal is heavy with prejudice. Anything can be classed as criminal just by passing a law which can put someone in jail for breaking it.

The real question about whether or not to enter your neighbour's house is whether you like them, envy them, want to set an example for others to follow, want to correct an imbalance in the share out of the communal booty or maybe you like them and want to ensure their house is safe or perhaps you know them so well that you can just pop in for tea and a chat.

If you obey a rule simply because the rule exists then one day in the not too distant future you and people like you will be at the centre of another holocaust. We were only obeying orders.

Think about what you do and do it because you feel it is right, not because there is a rule which says you must do it.

Commenting too late to matter...

[ravrazor]

As long as everyone realizes: the OtherOS functionality was removed by a firmware update. If you didn't update your firmware, it didn't change much for you. Yes, you no longer get to play your PS3 games online, but think of it as Sony suddenly implementing a $3 million dollar/day fee for their online gaming network.
You can't afford it, it's probably a crappy business decision, but they're allowed to do what they want even if it bankrupts the company.
Likely the OtherOS removal was because it _would_ have cost them a lot of money to make sure security through random homebrew software existed - something that's basically impossible.
This is the arrogant slashdot mindset, valuing technical skills over the ability to work within a society that has evolved over thousands of years. You can sit in your basement, but until you build your open source ps3 with free games, respect the money and time Sony put into this product. If you think they "deserve" to be punished, hope the next hacker that is intelligent enough to do so also has the social wherewithal to go online, demonstrate the exploit and go about changing things the right way. Whether it's a third-party verification, independent movie or the court system, get the word out and realize the US has no problem smacking down a corporation if the person who thinks the company's wrong can demonstrate it in an intelligent way.

Ignorant People

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of you are dumb. Would you rather have your information on a in-secure website? What these "criminals are doing" is forcing Sony to get with the program in regards to security. These hackers should not be able to do what they're doing. It is important for them to keep testing Sony's security. They post the content so Sony doesn't go and hide the fact that they've been breached. Ignorant people are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO frustrating...

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Ixitar]

I am sure that the SEC is already doing this, but check to see who shorted Sony stock.

Maybe it would be quicker

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it would be quicker to just post a list of people who have *not* hacked into Sony.

Awesome

[hesaigo999ca]

Great for Anonymous...awesome for Sony, maybe now they will listen a little more when we say, "Hey , stop being such dushbags!"

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Risen888]

Are you kidding? The MPAA has lost. The RIAA has lost. They're gonna kick a little more on the way down, but that ship has sailed.

That word does not mean what you think it means

[drinkypoo]

"Troll" does not mean "something with which I disagree".

Re:Sony company culture of indifference won't chan

[Anonymous Coward]

To my understanding, handling personal data, and loosing it, seems like a large penalty. Much larger than making their point, the hackers are causing that insurance companies (if Sony requires such thing) will charge them more. Banks and credit cards can milk them and they will have a hard time getting approved next time they want to ask or hold PNPI.

Releasing the info to a 3rd party may cause an extra reputation point. But the public release in an attempt to hurt their customers, means that their customers may be reluctant in providing that information to Sony (or any other company) in the future. But particularly them for loosing it so frequently.

Be safe out there

[wandernauta]

You can use my tool to check if your email address was compromised. It checks other LulzSec releases as well.