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Integrating Capacitors Into Car Frames
necro81 writes "It has long been recognized that adding capacitors in parallel with batteries can improve the performance of hybrid and electric vehicles by accepting and supplying spikes of power, which reduces stress on the battery pack, extending range and improving cycle life. The challenge has been figuring out where to put them, when batteries already compete for space. A new research prototype from Imperial College London has integrated them into the body panels and structural frame of the vehicle itself. In their prototype, carbon fiber serves as both the structure for the vehicle and electrode for the energy storage sandwiched within."
as a side benefit it functions as reactive armor in a collision.
WARNING: Do not travel over 88mph in cars with capacitors in the body framework.
Does anyone fail to see the problem of having what would likely be several Farads of high voltage stashed away in the body panels? I would expect if fully charged the capacitors if shorted, in a fender bender or whatever, they would leave little trace that they or anything that touches them ever existed. Just a spot of charred metal and the smell of electrolyte.
And what about the aging of capacitors or capacitor failure? It's certainly exiting when a small capacitor goes POP! Imagine when one of these suckers blow your doors off while you're driving!
touch the wrong thing in your car and it kills you.
I'd think they'd be far safer in the front and rear quarter panels I wouldn't want a capacitor in my cars door or roof that is just asking for trouble when it comes to accidents especially ones where the passengers might have to be cut free from a wreck.
Whe not being used for driving, the capacitors can double as a theft deterant by zapping the crooks with 50,000 volts... sweet.
Besides mechanics, please recall that EMS and police often face the issue of getting through metal to reach injured passengers. The 200 volts typically in a hybrid battery is one issue, knowing the location of batteries and how to disconnnect them another, but the thought of potentially still charged capacitors in the body frame sounds like an issue that could hinder response to emergencies.
Agreed with previous posters, having electricity stored in such a way throughout a vehicle - regardless of volts or amps - doesn't seem like such a hot idea (pun intended). It would certainly be a no-go on any vehicle with any sort of secondary, fueled motor, be it gas, hydrogen, etc., and the potential for other accident based on age, faulty manufacture, simple atmospheric conditions (how well will these fare when exposed to salt air in coastal areas) and too many other things to list here is simply enormous. There is danger enough in basic battery systems during a car accident, especially a major one that might involve another I.C.E. vehicle on fire... I don't relish the idea of trying to an injured person out a car that might kill me for touching the wrong exposed part of a wrecked frame.
"Inveniemus Viam Aut Faciemus" 'We will find a way... Or we will make one!' --Hannibal of Carthage
Combine these capacitors in body together with the motor in wheel thing, and you'll get that much closer to a car, that you can't fix without replacing too many functional parts, when all you needed to do was to replace wheels (how about winter?) and do some body work after a minor accident, so at some point the most economic thing will be just to toss the car away and get a new one.
Is that where they are going with this?
How about stopping with all this nonsense with the batteries and working on nuclear engines instead?
You can't handle the truth.
I mean, it sounds good at first. Make the whole car frame into a battery with supplementary capacitors. Maximize the power to weight ratio. Why not?
Well... battery material isn't necessarily a great structural material. Preventing short circuits in a vibrating frame with moving parts sounds fairly nightmarish. Replacing a worn out battery means replacing your car. And try not to get into an accident, and god help the EMT that tries to pry you out of the accident, especially if it's raining. That's what I can think of right off. I'm sure there are more reasons too.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Does anyone fail to see the problem of having what would likely be several Farads of high voltage stashed away in the body panels? I would expect if fully charged the capacitors if shorted, in a fender bender or whatever, they would leave little trace that they or anything that touches them ever existed. Just a spot of charred metal and the smell of electrolyte.
And what about the aging of capacitors or capacitor failure? It's certainly exiting when a small capacitor goes POP! Imagine when one of these suckers blow your doors off while you're driving!
Mod parent up. In the effort to improve the safety of the driving public a high energy arc as a result of a minor vendor bender is going the wrong way. It is insanity.
Please mod me 1 or troll. It's where the truth is these days, even on Slashdot. Beware the power of moderators everywh
What could possibly go wrong driving around at speed with a tank of highly flammable liquid strapped to the undercarriage of the car.
What insanity!!!
The same can be said for LPG a high pressure canister of highly flammable GAS just behind your seat - imagine that in a crash.
Any dense energy source put into a car has a potential for that energy to be released in a way that is not intended especially in a crash. It is the details of the design that can make the energy storage (relatively) safe.
capacitor leakage current.
This would effect the range and would cause the batteries to discharge when the vehicle was not opperational.
1.21 jiggawatts of power
Capacitors, like batteries, give more bang for the space (and buck) if designed for lower voltages. Lower voltage = more capacity. Also Distance at high currents matters. Greater cable length = wasted power or greater cable length = bigger, longer and heavier cables. So having a distributed (through the vehicle apart from the batteries), and/or high voltage capacitors is not the way to go. Placing a low voltage capacitor next to or integrated with each battery unit or cell, allows for smaller size, greater capacity capacitors with more efficiency. [Built my first electric car in 1975.]
As opposed to, say, driving around with ten or more gallons of gasoline in the car? :-)
Or even, real live CNG, since vehicles are out there, and fracked gas is Our Future.
We'll be fine (or rather, no worse off), as long as an arcs-in-crashmobile doesn't run into a leaks-gas-in-crashmobile.
And semi-seriously, how many deaths to you predict that this would cause, and how does that number compare with pedestrians killed per year (US, 3000), people-in-cars killed per year (US, 30,000), or people dying early for lack of exercise per year (US, perhaps 300,000 -- it's a good fraction of all CV deaths, as well as some cancers, strokes, complications of diabetes, etc).
If you're using the carbon fiber structure as an electrode, you would have difficulty making the series connections necessary for higher voltages.
The other problem is mechanical. There's no such thing as a perfectly rigid structure, there is always some flex. For batteries, that could be a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know.
There is a reason why fuel tank is universally located in a protected area behind and on the side of the car. They're talking about installing capacitors in DOORS.
Gas tanks in doors would likely get your car banned off the road in a very short order.
Gasoline is relatively inert, until mixed with the proper amount of air, the function which a carburetor or fuel injection system performs. You can snuff out a lit match in gasoline, as long as the fumes haven't been allowed to build up significantly. This is why gasoline as a fuel is so safe compared to many of the proposed alternatives, such as the looming disaster that hydrogen fuel poses.
Polarize the hull plating!
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I wonder if the body panels could be engineered to take advantage of that little bit of static electricity that happens if your tires don't ground your vehicle?
"Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
Or in the frame?
I'd better remember that the next time I'm drilling some holes to mount a CB radio antenna or eight track player.
Have gnu, will travel.
Any experienced mechanic would laugh at the proposed locations.
(I'll be polite and avoid the phrase "fucking stupid".)
The door skins and hood are frequently damaged in minor crashes, and required FLEXIBLE connection to the electrical system because they move. Serviceability would suck, and once damaged the parts would be unusable. Good luck ever fixing your car with aftermarket door skins or hood.
Take the SAME area, make a nice compact quick-swap STANDARD form-factor "capacitor module", and use those.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
There is a reason why fuel tank is universally located in a protected area behind and on the side of the car. They're talking about installing capacitors in DOORS.
Gas tanks in doors would likely get your car banned off the road in a very short order.
Oh quit whining. They would be protected by the airbags. Snuggled up right next to your elbow. They'll be fine.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Not one quip 'til now about a Flux Capacitor, or electric/hybrid cars that will be able to travel back in time?
It's a terrible pun, but they could rename the Prius to "Pre-us"....
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
There was a time when all cars were built with a frame and then an additional external skin or paneling, and similar for aircraft. One then realized that one could combine the load bearing and the skin in one material, and this is called monocoque.
Using the skin for storing energy (especially storing "weightless" electrical energy) seems to be just a logical extension of the monocoque concept. Maybe cars will be built in some synthetic double shell lined with massive-surfaced nanoscale carbon structures?
So does that mean that if you leave a light on and run your battery down, you have to take it to the dealer to get it repaired?
Inded, that is exactly what it means.
Volkswagen, same thing. Happened to my 1996 Golf. I left the lights on, ran down the battery -- so the radio locked itself tight, awaiting the release code.
-kgj
Vehicle fires are common, and even without a petrol tank they burn very nicely. Exotic materials can produce dangerous products when burned, and their inhalation isn't just an EMS issue
When carbon fiber aircraft structures are burned or damaged, Crash Recovery teams are required to spray them with a fixative (commercial floor wax is one) then wrap them in plastic for transport and disposal.
A CONTAINERIZED capacitor can retain material which will be destroyed in a fire if it's the skin of the vehicle.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Capacitors (with a little resistance) are great integrators - maybe they can do it themselves - with a bit of coaxing - I said they had a bit of resistance (ducks)
Have a rescue sheet readily available behind the sun visor, so that the emergency personnel can avoid the capacitors while cutting through the metal. More info about rescue sheets here: http://www.rescuesheet.info/
Please, spread the word.
And what happens when you have a short? Say from a small dint? Seriously. This is a bad idea no matter which way I rub it on my abdomen.
This is probably the first time ever on slashdot that simple "DIAF" is an appropriate response and not trolling.
I hate it when there is small fender bump on my commute to work and the people just sit on the side of the road. The traffic piles up with neck cranners, the 30 ride goes to 45 or 50 mins and on a hot day, not fun at all. If a blown capacitor obliterates the two cars into nothing..oh well. Maybe people will start to pay more attention to driving then talking a phone, eating breakfast, dressing or whatever they do other then focus on driving.
In this day and age why we still subject people to commuting when there is so much opportunity to use the internet and communication tools available to keep people home working. We'd save on energy costs, we'd help local economies, and from one swedish study I read, marriages may last longer. Honestly, maybe capacitors blowing up will get us off the road.
Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
If you consider the Wright Brothers first flight (1903) to be the birth of aviation, than airplanes are 108 years old. Why would you want something so antiquated as an airplane. We should all start riding Segways everywhere. They are the new thing. Hell, they're only 10 years old. I say they are the FUTURE*!
*until hoverboard technology comes about by the year 2015 as predicted by the documentary "Back To The Future: Part 2".
Worse yet, the new in-thing for kids will be to convert their reactors to illegally enrich uranium to sell to rogue nations.
Don't be a dope. Say NO to 'Tope.
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It's small caps that explode more easily.
Larger caps usually just expand slowly and vent in a controlled manner.
A bullet passing through a large capacitor will destroy it, but is not very likely to cause an explosion.
A bullet passing through a large transformer is what IS likely to cause an explosion...
Though safety would be your own risk: Try buying 2 capacitors at radio shack, both rated at 6.3 volts.... one a 1uF and the other a 4700uF.... then attach their leads via alligator clips and jumper wires with enough length to allow the cap to dangle inside an empty soda can...
Now pay attention to the capacitor's polarity markings and hook them to a car battery, but backwards on purpose....
I would recommend blowing them separately so you can hear and see the difference between the destruction...
The 1uF cap should sound roughly like a 22 cal shot (maybe not quite that loud) and the larger capacitor should make a muffled sound closer in volume and tone to a cork popping out of a bottle of the bubbly stuff, though less dramatic.
Trust me, I'm a doctor.....
thank you, http://exercisesto-reducetummy.com/articles/love-handle-workouts/