Slashdot Mirror
Will Microsoft Release Its Own Windows 8 Tablet?
An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft isn't exactly known for its hardware prowess. Sure, it's churned out plenty of nice mice, keyboards, and game controllers over the years, but success with actual devices has been mixed. The Xbox 360 has exceeded all expectations, while the Zune and Kin hardware have been monumental failures. According to industry sources in Taiwan, however, Microsoft is working on a Windows 8 tablet that will be powered by Texas Instrument's next-generation 1.8GHz dual core processor."
It'll be different this time, guys. Honest!
The 360 has exceeded all expectations?
Except the whole paying for the debt the Xbox left them with.
Intel should be even more worried than they are already.
When Microsoft abandons this h/w, it could turn out to be a sweet platform for actually running something useful.
Have gnu, will travel.
Seems you are uninformed. They hire in plenty of international employees. I'm not American btw, I don't care about such patriotic/racist sentiments.
which is totally what she said
MiPad? MicroPad? Window Pane? MicroTab?
I'm for MS having a tablet - the more competition in the market the better.
As for MS being an American company, they're as American as Apple or any other huge multinational. Also, MS hires many many H1-Bs and they have a huge presence in India and throughout Asia and the World for that matter.
It's impossible to just buy American in the IT industry.
The hardware design wasn't the problem with the KIN. It being released after feature phones stopped being cool coupled with it requiring an expensive data plan did it in. The hardware design on the Zune on the other hand.... well poop brown just isn't cool.
completely fucking useless??? Survey says: YES!
XBox 360 exceeded all expectations? Yeah, right...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19625436&postcount=90
How are two billion dollars in the red? Exceeded all expectations?
Other Taiwan-based OEMs are also rumored to be assisting in the manufacturing process.
All American? Those days are long gone (and not just for Microsoft). Buying based on a US corporate logo isn't going to guarantee any American jobs (besides Ballmer's, and that's up for grabs as well).
The only difference between Apple and Microsoft is that the latter's O/S is going to have more end users committing suicide instead of Foxconn employees.
Have gnu, will travel.
Is a dual core processor at that speed really better than a single-core at 3.6 MHz? I think I'd rather have the speed, not the parallel processing, especially if I'm watching DVD or better quality video.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
When you have a budget as big as they have whats to lose? Go ahead and make it and see if the market bites. Some certainly will so it's just a matter of how many. Yeah its a follow the leader mentality but so what? I don't think MS truly cares about a flop here and there as long as they keep in the game. Did Zune or Kin really hurt them much? In this forest even the blind squirrel will sometimes find an acorn.
If they expected to be 3 billion in the red.
And it will be a gargantuan flop.
Proverbs 21:19
Other than a clock-based firmware glitch that didn't affect me, I have no memory of anything rising to Red Ring of Death on my Zune.
Microsoft isn't likely to start building a Microsoft-branded tablet ... why should it? It has a system in place for that. It drafts hardware the specs and OEMs build the devices. The partnership with Nokia is the closest it will come (or needs to come) to building its own tablet. But it still has the clout to coerce Dell, Acer, HP and others into building tablets, too. There's already grumbling in the OEM community that the early specs for Windows 8 are too restrictive ... not leaving room for each vendor to bring special features to compete. They were all hoping that Android tablets would take off enough to give them some leverage against Microsoft, but so far, that hasn't happened. Microsoft still calls the shots with OEMs and has no need to strike out on its own. Intel, with its poor MeeGo project is another story ...
Julie
I could have sworn they said they're leaving the iPad and its market alone. Shit changes quickly around here.
Zune was more a marketing flop. All of those music/video player things are fungible, from a utility standpoint. I've had them all, and the one I still use is a little 2GB Sandisk Sansa Clip, when I'm not just using my phone.
"Microsoft isn't exactly known for its hardware prowess" When fans of Apple chime in, they never seem to mention the Newton, Lisa, or Pippin. Yet, any product failure on Microsoft is used as evidence for the "impending doom of Microsoft". Quite frankly, Microsoft's batting average is about as good or better than any other company.
I'm certainly no fan of the Xbox, but I don't see "in the red". Microsoft's Xbox360 division has been profitable every year since the old xbox was retired.
Of course Microsoft wanted to be where Nintendo is now (billions of profit each year), but at least they aren't losing anymore. And they sold about twice as many units as the 2000-2005 generation.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
I don't know about the Microsoft numbers, but I don't trust that chart simply because of Sony's numbers.
Seriously, since the PS3 is the worst-selling of the three console systems. Even with this year-old data, Sony should be doing much worse than that chart shows... unless they're doing creative bookkeeping between the PlayStation and Consumer Electronics divisions (read: TVs, radios, Blu-Ray players, etc...)
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
You are making the case for Microsoft to get more directly involved in the manufacturing process, rather than rely on contract electronic manufactures like Flextronic that were used to manufacture those XBox's
Strange that because sitting here at my office desk I can see Microsoft's UK HQ sitting near Oracle's one in Thames Valley Park, Reading.
Why do you say that Apple is an Asian Company? It is listed like MS, Oracle etc on the NYSE/NasDaq etc. /. friend so does MS and jut about every other tech company in the western world. That is economics 101.
Ok so Apple gets it 'stuff' made abroad. Well my
Take a look at an MS Keyboard. Where is it made? China or somewhere not that far away probably.
If we take your argument a stage further, then the cars at your friendly GM/Ford dealer will be sadly unable to leave the forecourt if you remove all the 'foreign' parts.
The same goes for every Boeing that rolls off the production line in Seattle.
Microsoft has a long history of letting its hardware partners take all of the risks. That's a fine strategy if you want to sell a bog standard PC. It is a much less workable strategy if you want to make some sort of unique device. In the past, however, Microsoft has been the only game in town when it came to workable off-the-shelf OS software, especially if you wanted to play well with Windows.
So the OEMs took Microsoft's software and did all of the actual engineering to make it actually work. If the device was a flop they were left holding the bag with the unusable hardware and the bill for the engineering effort. If the device was a success, then it was a given that Microsoft was going to shop your ideas around to your competitors. After all, most of the software that made your device work belonged to Microsoft. Microsoft got paid per device sold, and so they were happy to encourage cut throat competition on the hardware side. This guaranteed that there was a disincentive to actually innovate as companies like Dell, that made their money by cloning other people's ideas and squeezing the supply chain until it bled, dominated. Why innovate if Dell and Microsoft are going to make all of the money borrowing your ideas? Every once in a while someone would come up with a new device based entirely on their own software (Palm, Rim, etc.), but they invariably faced lots of pressure and competition from Microsoft and its OEMs.
The combination of Apple's design prowess and the emergence of Google's android have broken this cycle. Apple has the design genius to create entirely new devices that people want, and the existence of Android means that Apple's competitors have a ready-made OS that doesn't require that they work with Microsoft. Now Microsoft realizes that it needs to get into these new markets, but none of its traditional allies are willing to risk working with Microsoft's software. Heck, HP even has its own software for these devices. Nokia is allied with Microsoft now, and in fact, it has bet the business on Microsoft's software, but they are too busy trying to make a Windows phone to be relied on for a tablet.
So Microsoft gets to take its own risks now. It should be interesting. Microsoft learned a lot from the XBox. It is even possible that they won't lose billions of dollars this time.
The PS3 isn't doing that badly. It's only 5% behind the Xbox360, but you are correct that Sony is doing some tricky accounting:
"As of FY 2010 Q1, Sony are now reporting the results for the re-organised division Networked Products & Services rather than the old method of reporting for the gaming division. 'Sony said it will combine its VAIO personal-computer, Walkman and PlayStation businesses in the Networked Products & Services Group to focus on creating gadgets that can work with each other and connect to the Internet.' "
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
It’s possible that the 10-15 other people who bought one may have had issues you didn’t
I'm not entirely sure if those numbers are *JUST* the xbox. Microsoft has typically mixed the xbox in with other losing products like the webtv, and other crap so the division that xbox has been in has been unprofitable. Those numbers are also a year old, and xbox has been doing QUITE well in the last year.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
I do not own a current-gen console, nor do I have stock in any of the companies involved. I don't favor one over the other for that matter. Have I cleared myself as an independent in the console-fanboy wars yet? Ahem. Simple observation here. A couple of my friends own 360's. One of them has had to replace it 5-6 times due to hardware failure. A recent release killed support for early games. I guess if success is defined as convincing their customers to ignore past experiences then perhaps I would call that a win. But it isn't going to get me to buy any hardware from them that costs more than $20. I honestly can't figure out how Microsoft has managed to keep so many 360 users over the years, because I would have dropped that console like an F-bomb the first time it failed on me. I would not have given it any more chances. Nor will I give any other Microsoft hardware any chances. If maintaining any customer base in any way counts as exceeding all expectations (which, granted, in my case is true) then huzzah for them. But really?
Two billion in red the first year. Which, coincidentally, is right about the same number as Sony's loss. Furthermore, MS came out of the red actually earlier than Sony. So either that makes the PS3 the mother of all failures, or the XBox360 did vastly better than expected.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Rinux not asian! Rinus not asian!
They can reuse that Kin name they have laying there.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
The *only* good thing about MS is that they provided a stable platform where they managed to make it tasty for hw companies to produce for and stable enough to keep developers. whenever MS tried to do more than an occasional mouse or keyboard it sucked.
Dear MS, just try to get your os stable and clean, and provide in a form that it can be easily adapted to different platforms (e.g. partial open source). The others will do the rest (see: Android).
Nothing personal, but you need to take a basic accounting class before you talk about this stuff. Really.
The division that includes the XBox has been profitable since the original XBox was retired because Microsoft went through a whole pile of accounting tricks to make sure that all of the large expenses happened before that arbitrary date. For example, Microsoft essentially pre-paid nearly $1 billion for promotion instead of paying for campaigns as they came up. Microsoft also wrote off another $1 billion for hardware returns.
The hardware return writeoff is especially interesting. Normal people, like you and I, know that Microsoft doesn't actually incur any costs until they have to fix your broken XBox 360. However, because of accounting tricks Microsoft could say (on the books) that it had already lost the money that it took replacing hardware. So the XBox division got credit for new sales, but it did not get dinged for returns. Instead of years of red ink, on paper Microsoft had a few *horrible* quarters and then moderate returns. This might make you feel better if you aren't very good at math, or if you are a fan of Microsoft's gaming system, but the end result is the same. Microsoft is still in the red overall on the XBox 360, and the best it could manage was a distant second place. Heck, Sony might even pass then for that honor.
Personally, I think that Microsoft had to do what it did, and it still could easily end up with a win, but talking about quarterly profits from the XBox division is just ignorance. Microsoft's investors have took a beating on both XBoxes, and I am sure that a lot of them are very wary about Microsoft making more hardware.
Seems like Nokia should supply the hardware. Poor Elop, betrayed by his ex coworkers.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
As far as devices go, mine has lasted longer than any other portable device I've owned. I have a first gen Zune 30 that has taken a beating and continues to spin up without any issues. I admit that marketing for the Zune ecosystem has been a colossal failure, which is a shame because the Zune pass is the best thing going, IMHO. But the hardware is rock solid.
Has it already become so obvious to the OEMs that WinTab 8 will be such an mind-boggling disaster that the only way MS can get it out to the marketplace is to make the hardware themselves? At which point aren't the traditional hardware OEMs going to start having second thoughts about supporting Microsoft on their other product lines?
Nokia's already feeling the burn from having joined themselves to the hip with Redmond, seeing their market freeze while consumers wait for whatever hybrid spawn the two produce, or just running to the other mobile platforms (Android/RIM/IOS). I'd have to think tablet makers debating whether to work with Windows are having their minds made up for them.
SCOX(Q) DELENDA EST!!
This could help to limit the issues seen with Androids "fragmentation" by consolidating on a single hardware platform... However they will alos let others make alternate devices (Are manufacturers vying to build tablets for Win8?), and they will still be running fully bloated Windows 95-Win8 underneath the the tacked on layer of TouchUI (metro). So when the touch interface fails you can Alt+Tab into task manager find out which services is crushing your system etc. On a positive note, it can run all the native Windows goodness (malware included). So you can have an impossibly difficult interface to touch through three levels deep to find out where your networking issues started. (hint: its spelled malware). It is sadly true. Microsoft's stance of only one OS for all your needs is here to stay. Except they don't have one OS, they have WinCe, Windows Embedded, Windows 7 phone OS, and Windows 7. Microsoft you don't have to listen to the marketing team when they show you the extrapolation of all the ways you can gouge money from the masses. Try making something people want. If this fails, then they will try to strong arm the manufacturers, and shift the marketplace and if that fails then it is FUD to the rescue. I've been wrong before, very wrong ( I said the Beastie Boys would be one-hit-wonders). Microsoft is not the Beastie Boys. Hopefully they turn out something respectable and usable, and prove me wrong again.
Last time they had a good concept for an in-house developed tablet (Courier) they axed the project just when a lot of people had started to look forward to it and were actively interested in buying one.
How do you figure that it has been profitable? My analysis indicates $7-8B in the red before the division made money. Also bear in mind that they lumped Mac software in that division which was certainly profitable.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Well that unit had Mac software until recently. They moved it out sometime last year. Also the division was profitable until Xbox came along. Coincidence?
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
The only difference between Apple and Microsoft is that the latter's O/S is going to have more end users committing suicide instead of Foxconn employees.
Nah. Emo kids love iPhones.
Microsoft has a history of putting together sample devices which they then give out at their Professional Developer Conferences. In 2009 they gave away a convertible tablet running Win7. In 2010 they gave away a Windows Phone 7. The 2011 conference will be all about windows 8 - guess what they might be giving away?
MS: Hey, we are comming with Win8, it will run on tablets.
OEMs: Ok, call us when you have something.
MS: Hey, you'd better pay attention, or Windows may become more expensive for you.
OEMs: Ok, we are paying attention. Do you have something to show?
MS: Yes, your hardware must meet that spec...
OEMs: That's insane, it will be too expensive! Nobody will buy it!!! Is that all you propose?
MS: No, you also must get processors only from manufacturer X.
OEMs: <Strong laughs>
MS: Hey, we are serious!!!!
OEMs: <Hangs the phone, laughing>
MW: Ok, it seems we'll have to roll our own hardware.
Rethinking email
I hope not at this point. Chrome laptops are shipping and other devices that come with linux natively are finally available. Microsft is even managing to swindle HTC for $5 for every Android shipped (what the hell HTC?).
It's about time that we buy pure Linux laptops that don't quietly enrich microsoft. For example: the new chrome laptops (just got my samsung today).
I support America by running a real American OS: Debian.
Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
you have a zune?
Balderdash!
The Kin was made by Danger. The Zune failed for reasons unrelated to hardware design and build quality. They should go for it. Make something nice and do it right. Give device makers someone to copy that isn't Apple for once (even if your tablet is a copy of the iPad, at least 3rd party makers will get some idea of what to change about the iPad design and what to leave alone).
For the past few years, at work, I am forced to use MS-office, MS-vista ....
I know they were first to make piss-poor software for the masses.
The masses do irrationally love their, malevolent or benevolent, gods on earth and in their mind.
"Reality is self-induce hallucination."
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
The only difference between Apple and Microsoft is that the latter's O/S is going to have more end users committing suicide instead of Foxconn employees.
As opposed to the former which has people selling organs.
XBox 360 exceeded all expectations? Yeah, right...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19625436&postcount=90
How are two billion dollars in the red? Exceeded all expectations?
That chart even gives you the biggest hint as to why MS is in the red with the XBox, they are the relative newbie to the market. MS started only 9 years ago, Sony started 8 years before them and Nintendo close to 2 decades before MS. This experience is reflected in the profit charts, though even then the divisions compared are not equal across the companies and the tie ins for the xbox (foxtel, zune, netflix, etc...) likely change those figures too.
The PS3 isn't doing that badly.
Not anymore, but the XBox doesn't really have any RROD problems anymore either since the S refresh yet that doesn't stop people from claiming it has a huge return rate. You're right though, since the Slim refresh it has done pretty well and gained back a lot of lost ground.
As but one example, to date there is no word processor on the iPad that properly handles footnotes or endnotes. The closes is Apple's own Pages which will display footnotes in a document that already has them but has not functionality for creating new ones unless you count copying and pasting an existing footnote, changing the text, and then forcing a repagination which renumbers the notes. Otherwise, by copying and pasting, you'd have two notes with the same number.
The closest is using one of the many text editors to write in LaTeX and then doing final edits on a Mac or PC.
"The Xbox 360 has exceeded all expectations"
That's like saying that the US involvement in Vietnam exceeded all expectations because the last helicopter to leave the roof of the embassy didn't spontaneously explode.
Xbox is quite possibly the greatest disaster in the history of business. It's just that MS makes enough money from Windows and Office to cope with it.
I can already picture it, it'll weight a few lbs, look like a laptop with a screen where the keyboard should be, it'll still have a touch mouse and scroll bars.
If they can serve up Zune and not realise what a steaming turd it was from day one, anything is possible from Microsoft.
It will have all the appeal being designed by a crack team of turnip farmers from former soviet russia.
Why the heck would MS build its only tablet. They just build and draft hw requirements and reference designs.. there is no need for them to compete at the hw level.
All the comments about OEMs and MS's historical model of dealing with them look wrong to me. Looks to me more like MS wants to imitate Apple's strategy:
1. own the platform
2. keep it shut tight as a drum
3. milk the "content streams" for revenue
4. profit wildly
Their deal with Nokia buys them a phone distribution channel. Now they want/need a tablet. Don't they already own a television company? Lots of me-too-ism going on there. Thankfully Apple (much as I despise their model) will bury MS at that game, and, with a little luck they'll just slowly wither away. Can't happen soon enough for me.
New mod option wanted: -1 DrunkenRambling
In fact it would be the killer app (if I can stretch the term) for their .net and silverlight push.
There is a huge opportunity for Microsoft to provide a tablet that could act either as an independent iPad like item or a thin-client (similar to the Wii U controller) that could act as an extension or detachable component of Xbox360 and Win8 applications.
Given the track record with previous Microsoft tablet efforts (I was playing with their transmeta containing tablet a long time ago) I'd say the problem is the software. The hardware is all there.
I beg you pardon? Are you talking about these piece of crappy rubber-domes split ergo keyboard that M$ made? Oh they may *look* nice but I don't think that's what you meant by "nice".
People working in the IT field and thinking that $5 china-mass-produced rubber dome keyboards are good should get a reality check. Look into mechanical keyboards: buckling springs (IBM Model M, Unicomp), Cherry MX switches, ALPS or the very special Topre keyboards.
Some of these keyboards can be found for less than $50 and there's no way a M$ keyboard is "nice" compared to these.
I'm getting tired of this bullshit. The day M$ shall produce something that doesn't suck it's going to be a vacuum cleaner.
I don't understand why they're so hung up on "Windows" - it's a completely generic name. They should just come up with a new brand. Something that relates to the way you use it. How about:
Microsoft Swipe