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The Future of Time: UTC and the Leap Second

rlseaman writes "UTC ("Coordinated Universal Time") is very close to being redefined to no longer track Earth rotation. Clocks everywhere — on your wall, wrist, phone or computer — would stop keeping Solar time. 'American Scientist' says: 'Before atomic timekeeping, clocks were set to the skies. But starting in 1972, radio signals began broadcasting atomic seconds and leap seconds have occasionally been added to that stream of atomic seconds to keep the signals synchronized with the actual rotation of Earth. Such adjustments were considered necessary because Earth's rotation is less regular than atomic timekeeping. In January 2012, a United Nations-affiliated organization could permanently break this link by redefining Coordinated Universal Time.'"

235 comments

  1. Copypasta by Gothmolly · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Taco, all you did is quote the article summary. I can spin up an RSS reader to do that.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:Copypasta by machxor · · Score: 2

      And the article isn't even available. I want my click back :-)

    2. Re:Copypasta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Are you sure he didn't replace himself with a shell script?
      That's what I would do if it was my site :-)

    3. Re:Copypasta by csnydermvpsoft · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do you normally read all American Scientist articles? I don't, so I appreciate this article being brought to my attention (though I'm not planning to pay to read it). The purpose of /. is to point out interesting information so that we can read it further. The summary is supposed to be an accurate summary of the article; since an abstract is already provided, why shouldn't it be used?

    4. Re:Copypasta by bennomatic · · Score: 5, Funny

      A taco shell script? Inconceivable!

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    5. Re:Copypasta by Capt+James+McCarthy · · Score: 2

      Taco, all you did is quote the article summary. I can spin up an RSS reader to do that.

      So then why are you on /.? Don't bitch, go sign up for your feed and you've fixed _your_ problem.

      --
      There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
    6. Re:Copypasta by dainbug · · Score: 1

      I wish I had mod points for you!

    7. Re:Copypasta by MirthScout · · Score: 1

      I'm getting hungry.

    8. Re:Copypasta by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and then you can't even RTFA if you want to, because it's behind a paywall.

      Well done, Taco. Well done.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    9. Re:Copypasta by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      Thank you, thank you; I'll be here all week!

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    10. Re:Copypasta by 2names · · Score: 1

      Well played, benno...well played, indeed.

      --
      "I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
    11. Re:Copypasta by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

      The summary is supposed to be an accurate summary of the article; since an abstract is already provided, why shouldn't it be used?

      Because we can't read the actual article unless we're a paid subscriber to the journal/magazine - that's why.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    12. Re:Copypasta by csnydermvpsoft · · Score: 1, Informative

      Because we can't read the actual article unless we're a paid subscriber to the journal/magazine - that's why.

      As others have mentioned, it is available - follow the first link and look for a link to the article PDF in the right sidebar. I agree that the /. summary could've mentioned that.

    13. Re:Copypasta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try the fish.

    14. Re:Copypasta by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      That's not a solution. You still have to purchase the article.

    15. Re:Copypasta by Kenshin · · Score: 1

      You actually read the articles?

      --

      Does it make you happy you're so strange?

    16. Re:Copypasta by PwnzerDragoon · · Score: 1

      Be sure to tip the steak and try the waitress!

    17. Re:Copypasta by Genda · · Score: 1

      Hhhmmmm, a taco shell? What might you put in a taco shell? A script??? What kind of sauce do you put on that?

    18. Re:Copypasta by blair1q · · Score: 2

      Only if they're on playboy.com

    19. Re:Copypasta by jcoy42 · · Score: 1

      Inconceivable!

      You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      --
      Never trust an atom. They make up everything.
    20. Re:Copypasta by ygbsm · · Score: 0

      I don't think that word means what you think it means!

    21. Re:Copypasta by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

      Because the jokers who run slashdot are called "editors".

      --
      I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    22. Re:Copypasta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He said the abstract to the actual article. Abstracts are always given out for free.

    23. Re:Copypasta by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      FTA: The content you've requested is available without charge only to active Sigma Xi members and affiliates.

      Yet another example of the intolerance of modern science for democracy. They're redefining the whole bloody way we measure the advance of TIME, affecting everything from economics to electronics, and they can't be bothered to put the article into the public domain.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    24. Re:Copypasta by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      rlseaman writes

      Taco didn't write anything.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  2. Membership Required by nemasu · · Score: 1

    The ONE time I try to RTFA, I CAN'T?? Unbelievable. "The content you've requested is available without charge only to active Sigma Xi members and affiliates."

    --
    I made an app! Shoutium
    1. Re:Membership Required by Tx · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Download: PDF Only link on the right hand side of the first linked page (Cornell) gives you a PDF of the same article.

      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    2. Re:Membership Required by nemasu · · Score: 1

      Cool. Thanks!

      --
      I made an app! Shoutium
    3. Re:Membership Required by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yeah, no kidding. Here I am thinking, "maybe I should stop my regular pattern of opening my big mouth in the comments without bothering to read the article first, and go RTFA first!" And then I find that I can't! What a crock.

  3. Why not call it GMT? by rich_hudds · · Score: 1

    I know there is a difference but they could have just redefined GMT rather than coming up with another name altogether. UTC doesn't even work as an acronym, it's just some French plot to wipe Greenwich from history.

    1. Re:Why not call it GMT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because GMT has an astronomical meaning. The new definition of UTC would simply make it something like "number of clicks since T_0". GMT would then be defined from UTC is such a way that GMT maintained its original meaning.

  4. Mayan Calendar by AwooOOoo · · Score: 1

    I expect this is the trouble the Mayan's ran into with their calendar ending in 2012 and thus the leap seconds leading to the end of the world next year.

    1. Re:Mayan Calendar by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

      As a Christian, I firmly believe that the Aztec gods knew more than mine about Armageddon. Thus the moat around my apartment filled with laser sharks.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    2. Re:Mayan Calendar by Eponymous+Hero · · Score: 0

      more likely:

      mayans got all the way to dec 2012 and were going to keep on with the calendar when some annoying egghead pointed out that they screwed up by ignoring the whole "century years are not leap years unless they are divisible by 400" rule. they started over but were wiped out before they could get anywhere and the new calendar didn't make it through the passing of time.

      you can send my fields medal to the email address on my /. account. (that should keep the trolls busy, hehe)

      --
      insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
  5. Oh no! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If time is kept by atomic clocks that's not synchronized with the Earth's rotation then one day, Midnight could be when the Sun is high in the sky!

    We can't have this! Think of the children! They'll learn that Noon is when the Sun is high in the sky only to see it pitch black!

    We need to stop this insanity now!

    1. Re:Oh no! by PPH · · Score: 2

      We can't have this! Think of the children! They'll learn that Noon is when the Sun is high in the sky only to see it pitch black!

      By then, children will no longer venture outside. Thanks to Facebook. And Slashdot.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Oh no! by camperdave · · Score: 1

      But noon hasn't been when the sun is highest in the sky for generations.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    3. Re:Oh no! by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself, timezone-off-center dweller.

    4. Re:Oh no! by skids · · Score: 1

      Oh the horrors. My grandkids will mock me thusly "Sonny, back when I was a kid, we would have had to wait until 04:17:43, a whole 20 seconds longer, for the sun to rise on July 4th."

    5. Re:Oh no! by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter, the true solar time almost always differs from the mean solar time. The sun would only be overhead at noon twice a year. The length of a solar day changes from day to day because the Earth's orbit is not circular.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  6. PDF version by KenAndCorey · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here's the full PDF version.

    1. Re:PDF version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you kind sir(s).

  7. GMT, PST.... by RdeCourtney · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    So Greenwich Mean Time is GMT, Pacific Standard Time is PST does that mean that Coordinated Universal Time would be CUnT?

    --
    Insert signature here...
    1. Re:GMT, PST.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see no 'n' there...

    2. Re:GMT, PST.... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Protip: It's after the "U".

  8. Metric Time by Normal+Dan · · Score: 1, Interesting

    As long as we're redoing time I say we convert it to the metric system. This was hard to do before because we kept trying to keep time in line with the rotation/orbit of the earth. But if all that's going out the window, let's just divide everything up into units of 10 and be done with it.

    --
    A unique way to learn a language: http://languageloom.com
    1. Re:Metric Time by chuckugly · · Score: 1

      Better to stop using decimal and convert everything to base 12. It's a wonderfully evenly divisible number.

    2. Re:Metric Time by gstrickler · · Score: 5, Informative

      The metric system is originally based upon an earth derived measurement called the meter. 1m ~ 1/10,000 the distance from the equator to the poles, 1g = the weight of 1cc of pure water at STP, etc. That all the measurements are base 10 is not what makes it "metric", it's that they're derived from the (originally) earth centric meter. Our time system is also derived from earth centric measurements, called day and year.

      Base 10 time would be a huge adjustment for society. While using a 100,000 "MetSec" day and a 100 "MetSec" "MetMin" would produce units fairly close to the existing second and minute measurements, a "MetHour" would be much longer or much shorter than an hour, either 14.4 minutes (100 MetHours/day), or 2.4 hours (10 MetHours/day). And that doesn't do anything to address the leap second issue, nor does it alter the ~ 365.25 MSD year.

      The bottom line is that as long as we maintain the concept of a day and year and all the associated stuff (seasons, equinoxes, solstices, etc.), all of which are critical to agriculture and survival, there has been no system of time keeping proposed that is significantly better than what we have. The universe is not going to arbitrarily adapt it's cycles to make it easy for our minds and computers to keep track of time.

      And that's without considering relativistic time dilation. While most people never have to worry about time dilation effects, the atomic clocks that create UT1 and GPS satellites have to compensate for relativistic differences caused by differences in local gravity and speed, both of which are affected by altitude.

      Perhaps Douglas Adams said it best, "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so."

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
    3. Re:Metric Time by RoccamOccam · · Score: 2

      Exactly. 2,3,4, and 6. I propose that we go even further and use also use 60 so that 5, 10, 12, 15, 20, and 30 are also factors. In fact, my entirely novel suggestion is that we use base-12 and base-60 for time-related purposes. Who's with me?!

  9. Captain's Log.... by MoldySpore · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    <Kirk Voice> Stardate.....65500...My...solar TIME, clock...seems to be...malFUNCTIONing...perhaps Coordinated....UniversalTime...is finally...UPON us. <\Kirk Voice>

    --

    "I hope you know how very lucky you are to know me, because I am so incredibly incredible."

  10. I don't care about CUT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really don't care about coordinated universal time or time that has to be regular. I care about the real rotation of the Earth and the Earth's orbit around the sun. So, what we see in the sky is always gonna matter most to me and not what humans create :) It doesn't matter to me if it's irregular.

    1. Re:I don't care about CUT by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      I really don't care about coordinated universal time or time that has to be regular. I care about the real rotation of the Earth and the Earth's orbit around the sun. So, what we see in the sky is always gonna matter most to me and not what humans create :) It doesn't matter to me if it's irregular.

      And you're going to notice a small number of seconds difference?

  11. Relativistic Reference Frames? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In 2012, a new definition of time that is only relative to the Earth's reference frame falls short.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:Relativistic Reference Frames? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which frame would you prefer?
      You can only pick one.

    2. Re:Relativistic Reference Frames? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What reference frame would you rather use?

    3. Re:Relativistic Reference Frames? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's pick several and take the time from each one. Then take the average and call it coordinated time.

    4. Re:Relativistic Reference Frames? by Delusionner · · Score: 1

      Is that what they call "the end of time" ?

  12. It's about time by Dolphinzilla · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Seriously this has been an issue for along time - GPS time does not include leap seconds and I am tired of having to write software that let's user adjust for the variable amount of leap seconds - nobody really cares if the earths rotation is synchronized with " UTC"

    1. Re:It's about time by gdshaw · · Score: 5, Informative

      Seriously this has been an issue for along time - GPS time does not include leap seconds and I am tired of having to write software that let's user adjust for the variable amount of leap seconds - nobody really cares if the earths rotation is synchronized with " UTC"

      Those who doesn't care about synchronisation already have the option to use TAI. They should use that instead of redefining UTC.

    2. Re:It's about time by kaiser423 · · Score: 3

      ?

      Leap seconds is already included in the GPS stream. So, with the GPS stream you get GPS time, and UTC time. Most GPS receivers output GPS time until they've received the NAV or other message that has the leapseconds count in it, and then correctly updates to UTC time. It seems like a simple, solved problem. Am I missing something with respect to your leap year stuff?

    3. Re:It's about time by kaiser423 · · Score: 1

      err, leap year in the last sentence should be *leap second*

    4. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, now all you will have to do is write software to make all those same adjustments between UTC and local time. That will be so much easier for sure, definitely...

    5. Re:It's about time by msauve · · Score: 2

      " I am tired of having to write software that let's user adjust for the variable amount of leap seconds"

      You're doing it wrong.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    6. Re:It's about time by GuldKalle · · Score: 1
      --
      What?
    7. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... nobody really cares if the earths rotation is synchronized with " UTC"

      Wrong. Astronomers care deeply. And "average" people will start to care when the sun is shining at midnight (and they don't live above the Arctic Circle).

    8. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, we don't have this option. See CCTF/09-27 which was submitted to ITU-R SG7A in 2007-09 and which said
                      The CCTF realizes that some misunderstanding exists regarding
                      the scope of application of the various time scales. It
                      stresses that TAI is the uniform time scale underlying UTC,
                      and that it should not be considered as an alternative time
                      reference.

    9. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hear you. I had to do this once, working at a subcontractor. While the primary contractor agreed with our complaints that using UTC and detecting leap-second injections was a bad idea. Our government agency that issued the contracts had decided to use UTC. The time-management system ended up as a very complex state machine without any actual reason, except that the agency had the idea that we should do this instead of handling the conversion offline which would have been the correct thing in this case.

    10. Re:It's about time by gdshaw · · Score: 1

      No, we don't have this option. See CCTF/09-27 which was submitted to ITU-R SG7A in 2007-09 and which said

      That's not their call. TAI a well known and well-defined time scale. Unless and until we become subject to the Digital Millennium Timekeeping Act or some similar insanity, we have the option to use it however we please.

    11. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The CCTF advises the BIPM. This note to the ITU-R was to point out that the BIPM is not tasked with nor funded for the distribution of a time scale. The BIPM produces TAI after the fact, and TAI is not available for use as part of an operational system.

    12. Re:It's about time by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      What I don't get, is why we don't just wait until we have say a 10 minute leap instead of adjusting by seconds every year, adjust by a few minutes every 10-20 years... much easier to program for, or just ignore and update the computer clocks...

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    13. Re:It's about time by gdshaw · · Score: 1

      The CCTF advises the BIPM. This note to the ITU-R was to point out that the BIPM is not tasked with nor funded for the distribution of a time scale. The BIPM produces TAI after the fact, and TAI is not available for use as part of an operational system.

      From a bureaucrat's perspective perhaps. From an engineering perspective TAI can be trivially derived from GPS time, and almost as easily from UTC. It is quite absurd to say that it is 'not available for use'.

      Besides, even if one were to accept the premise that TAI is somehow a second-class citizen amongst time systems, it would surely be simpler, less disruptive, and less confusing to promote it to first-class citizenship -- instead of fundamentally redefining the characteristics of UTC so that it becomes TAI in all but name.

    14. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read the last sentence of CCTF/09-27. They would rather undefine TAI altogether.

    15. Re:It's about time by gdshaw · · Score: 1

      Read the last sentence of CCTF/09-27. They would rather undefine TAI altogether.

      That may be how it has been presented, but I think this is misleading: for practical purposes what they are actually proposing is to abolish UTC, then rename TAI to become the new UTC (plus or minus a constant).

      All I'm saying is that if they are inventing a new system then they should give it a new name -- and if they are reinventing an existing system then it would be better if they reused the existing name, which is TAI. Is that really too much to ask?

  13. base-12 >> base-10 by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

    10 is an arbitrary base and works poorly for time. Earth time works very well in Base-12, which is what we have now.

    If you want to think of the children, the Egyptians and Babylonians taught their children to count on the knuckles of their four non-thumb fingers. The 10-finger-number system is just an unfortunate thing that came along with arabic numerals, which are very useful.

    I saw we adopt something from the UNICODE set to mean eleven and twelve. Say, they're not 1-teen and 2-teen, are they?

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  14. The point is? by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

    Even if we don't manage to exterminate ourselves in the interim we won't be getting off this rock in any meaningful way for several more generations on even the most optimistic forecasts. What is the point of divorcing UTC from humanity's relationship to our day to day on earth?

    --
    Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    1. Re:The point is? by tom17 · · Score: 1

      So what we need to do is leave it as is for now and when we start real space travel, we can have Space Time.

      Space Time, a fusion between the concepts of space and time, brought forward into one four dimensional continuum. Yeah man. I love that shit right there.

    2. Re:The point is? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    3. Re:The point is? by tom17 · · Score: 1

      No, I was talking about a song by The Shamen.

  15. While we're at it by vegge · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... could we also get rid of Daylight Savings Time?

    1. Re:While we're at it by EvanED · · Score: 1

      As someone who lives at a crappy place in terms of daylight, I have a better idea: make DST year-round. Gets rid of the clock change while still having the benefits (not getting dark at 4:30pm for as much of the year) of DST.

    2. Re:While we're at it by Pope · · Score: 1

      No thanks. PS. it's Daylight Saving Time, there's no "s".

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    3. Re:While we're at it by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Of course not. Studies utilizing questionable methodologies say it saves energy.

      Besides, not having to run in circles every time Congress decides to twiddle the dates would put people out of work and that's the last thing we need in this economy.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    4. Re:While we're at it by msauve · · Score: 2

      Why don't you just work, say, 8-4 instead of 9-5? It's not like DST really saves time, you know.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    5. Re:While we're at it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who lives at a crappy place in terms of daylight, I have a better idea: make DST year-round. Gets rid of the clock change while still having the benefits (not getting dark at 4:30pm for as much of the year) of DST.

      Or maybe we could split the difference (moving ahead or back 1/2 hour to the middle between the two endpoints) and keep that year round. Then we'd have half of our previous daylight savings to please people that like it for environmental or whatever reasons, and not shift times around for people like me who don't readjust very well or just plain hate daylight savings.

    6. Re:While we're at it by vegge · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the correction.

    7. Re:While we're at it by epine · · Score: 2

      Besides, not having to run in circles every time Congress decides to twiddle the dates would put people out of work and that's the last thing we need in this economy.

      Congratulations, you've just won a contract valued at 4 weeks of "running in circles" paying $100 per hour next time Congress twiddles the dates. This will spare you having to take out a second mortgage for the expanded deck and hot tub. Hope your spouse is the patient type and accepts that you'll be in good coin any day now for the big splurge, where any day now is some four digit year beginning most likely beginning with 2.

      A watched politician never twiddles the desired knob.

    8. Re:While we're at it by antdude · · Score: 1

      No, leave the daylight savings time. Get rid of the standard one. I like the extra daylight in the evening hours. ;)

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    9. Re:While we're at it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The extra "s" is for extra savingss!

    10. Re:While we're at it by jbengt · · Score: 1

      I work 8 - 5:30, you insens . . . never mind, I agree with your point, anyway.

    11. Re:While we're at it by SEE · · Score: 2

      If there was no S, it's be Daylight Aving Time.

    12. Re:While we're at it by lewiscr · · Score: 1

      Wake up an hour earlier.

    13. Re:While we're at it by treeves · · Score: 1

      Throw in an extra apostrophe with all those saving's!

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    14. Re:While we're at it by antdude · · Score: 1

      I already do like at 5 AM PT and sometimes earlier! :P

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    15. Re:While we're at it by jschrod · · Score: 1
      (1) Maybe he's not able to select his working times himselves? (I don't.)

      (2) Allocating time slots for various activities (movies, cinema, concerts, usual eating times) is not done by oneself, but by our social environment. As, in Real Life (tm). And they care for these old-fashioned digits on the clock.

      (3) 8am? What's this? I've heard of it, but I doubt it exists. :-) :-)

      --

      Joachim

      People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]

    16. Re:While we're at it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shop smart. Shop S-Mart!

    17. Re:While we're at it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's funny. We swing the clock arbitrarily by an hour twice a year.
      No one likes it.
      I say swing the clock 30 mins and leave it there forever.

    18. Re:While we're at it by Pope · · Score: 1

      I'm convinced! Let's get rid of the whole lot.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    19. Re:While we're at it by vashfish · · Score: 1

      You're in luck. There's no such thing as Daylight Savings Time. Perhaps you mean Daylight Saving Time?

  16. Think of the Humans by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    If time is kept by atomic clocks that's not synchronized with the Earth's rotation then one day, Midnight could be when the Sun is high in the sky!

    We can't have this! Think of the children! They'll learn that Noon is when the Sun is high in the sky only to see it pitch black!

    You're right, even if accidentally. Time keeping that is meaningful for most humans is much more important than time that is meaningful for just a handful of computer operators and nuclear scientists. They need to stop being so ego-centric.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:Think of the Humans by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      Yes, think of the humans. The ones wasting millions of dollars a year keeping databases up to date with the leap seconds which, unlike leap years, are not algorithmically predictable, and ensuring that all critical time-dependent software is properly tested and verified.

      Leap seconds happen at most twice a year, and typically once every few years. If they happen at their maximum permitted frequency, then in 1000 years the difference between midday and noon will be 2000 seconds, or just over half an hour. In other words, for me the drift due to not living exactly on a time zone boundary line will still be more than the difference due to ignoring leap seconds.

      Note that this is a wildly pessimistic prediction. It's more likely that we will drift about 5 minutes over the next thousand years. In 1,000 years, if the position of the sun over Greenwich at 12:00 is still of importance to a significant fraction of the human race, then I'll be very surprised.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    2. Re:Think of the Humans by TheCycoONE · · Score: 1

      But only the handful of computer operators and nuclear scientists use UTC; the rest can use UT1 or more accurately continue to use EST, or MST, or GMT, which will likely track UT1 which will continue to take into account leap seconds.

      From the article:

      Reprogramming of operational software that already presumes UT1 and UTC are always within a second of
      each other would be required, and some space operations and astronomical applications would need to
      distinguish between the UTC without leap seconds and UT1.

    3. Re:Think of the Humans by zill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Leap seconds happen at most twice a year, and typically once every few years. If they happen at their maximum permitted frequency, then in 1000 years the difference between midday and noon will be 2000 seconds, or just over half an hour. In other words, for me the drift due to not living exactly on a time zone boundary line will still be more than the difference due to ignoring leap seconds.

      It's impossible to predict ahead of time how many leap seconds are necessary. Just because it's been historically ±1 second doesn't mean it will always stay like that in the future. As T increases quadratically, we will eventually see leap minutes and leap hours.

      That's not even taking into account of the fact that doomsday style meteor impacts could necessitate adding or removing a whole day every year. That pretty much breaks half of the time-related code that I've written.

      Note that this is a wildly pessimistic prediction. It's more likely that we will drift about 5 minutes over the next thousand years. In 1,000 years, if the position of the sun over Greenwich at 12:00 is still of importance to a significant fraction of the human race, then I'll be very surprised.

      It's not pessimistic at all. T between the 1000AD and 2000AD was 1600 seconds.

      In fact, I'd say that's a very optimistic prediction, since T is monotonically increasing, T for the next 1000 years will be much larger than T for the previous 1000 years.

    4. Re:Think of the Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Millions of dollars? You must be joking. Just remember to periodically download tzdata for updates and you're all set.

    5. Re:Think of the Humans by blair1q · · Score: 1

      If you're basing your critical time-dependent software on year:day:month:hour:minute:second time formats, you're a dope.

      Your computer could care less, and the things you schedule in that format are about as critical as snooze alarms.

    6. Re:Think of the Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they happen at their maximum permitted frequency, then in 1000 years the difference between midday and noon will be 2000 seconds, or just over half an hour.

      Christ, I had no idea it was that bad. At the moment there's a whole12 hours difference between midday and noon. In the future each day will be just an hour long.

    7. Re:Think of the Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      On second thoughts, I'm an idiot with no reading comprehension at all.

    8. Re:Think of the Humans by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      The ones wasting millions of dollars a year keeping databases up to date with the leap seconds...

      If this is costing millions of dollars, You're Doing It Wrong.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    9. Re:Think of the Humans by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Check the Slashdot archives. Even making sure that air traffic control properly worked with leap seconds has cost several million dollars so far. Now check how much it's cost banks (when you're working out interest per second, and the number of seconds in a year is not constant, that gets expensive...)

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  17. This is great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Leap seconds are a disaster. Rare and seemingly unimportant enough that software don't handle them, important enough to break stuff.

    From now on, a UTC "day" will always correspond to exactly 86400 seconds. To correct for the slowing of earth, time zones can simply be adjusted by an hour, every time we'd otherwise have had 3600 leap seconds. (This will happen the first time around year 2500.)

  18. How long is year anyway? by scorp1us · · Score: 3, Informative

    We say 365 days.
    We observe 365.25.
    The tropical year (equinoxes+solstices) is closer to 365 solar days, 5 hours 49 minutes 19 seconds
    The sidereal year is 1.0000385 tropical years (365.256363004 ) (20m24.5128s longer than tropical year)

    So may times...

    --
    Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
    1. Re:How long is year anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We say 365 days.
      We observe 365.25.

      As long as we're being pedantic, it's actually 365.2425 under the Gregorian calendar. Years ending in 00 are only leap years if divisible by 400.

    2. Re:How long is year anyway? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      A year is a year long.

      Your numerical estimates of it are conveniences for your daily use, but, as you can see, can only be reconciled to the year by defining context and accounting for variability.

      If UTC stops adjusting for variability, then we'll just go back to using GMT as our human-readable clock standard timebase.

    3. Re:How long is year anyway? by hackertourist · · Score: 1

      So when the Chinese say "may you live in interesting times", they refer to the headaches that occur when you consider those four plus UTC, the leap second issue, and daylight savings while you're at it?

    4. Re:How long is year anyway? by Pope · · Score: 1

      The headaches are easy to deal with, just take some LSD, and console yourself with the fact that China has a single time zone.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
  19. Aw, jeezus by jra · · Score: 2

    This has been *progressing*?

    This is possibly the stupidest idea in history. Their stated goal: taking complexity out of time handling code -- *cannot happen*: it will *still* have to account for all the years we did this.

    And it will break *lots* of stuff.

    1. Re:Aw, jeezus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It won't break anything if they just stop adding seconds.
      The added seconds are being decided in the months preceeding they are added so nothing will break by no new leapseconds being added.

    2. Re:Aw, jeezus by SandorZoo · · Score: 1

      What's it going to break? The only systems that will know or care are those that know what the GMT time is, because they will see UTC drifting further and further from GMT. Currently UTC and GMT are not supposed to differ by more than a second or so.

      I deal with lots of system that pass time-stamped packets around, and care about their accuracy. Different systems deal with leap seconds in different ways - jump, adjust slowly (over 10 minutes), adjust quickly (under a minute). Accurate time stamps stop working for the 10 minutes or so after a leap second, so our usual solution is to just stop critical operations during leap seconds. They are a PITA. One solution proposed else-thread is to use TIA, but not many time distribution systems support this, as far as I know.

      Also, leap seconds make it is impossible to calculate delta times accurate to the second into the future. How many seconds will there be between 1-Feb-2012 16:32:21 UTC and 22-Jun-2016 17:42:31 UTC? Nobody knows.

      I'm fully in support of binning leap seconds, but my understanding is it has been proposed several times before (mostly by America) and shot down every time (mostly by Europe). I don't have much hope this time around.

    3. Re:Aw, jeezus by spitzak · · Score: 1

      It will have to account for all the years this was done, but there will be no unpredictable changes in the future. The difference between atomic time and current time will be a constant from now on. This is a lot easier, because you can write a self-contained program to do 100% of the conversion right now, rather than having to write a program that can update the conversion from an outside source.

    4. Re:Aw, jeezus by jecblackpepper · · Score: 1

      If you need to know the number of seconds between 1 Feb 2012 16:32:12 and 22 Jun 2016 17:42:31 then either you should UT1/GMT or you should be using TAI timestamps. When you designed your system you chose a time system that includes leap seconds and then did not account for it, there is no excuse for later on complaining about leap seconds.

    5. Re:Aw, jeezus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah but at least all the leap seconds till now are known (obviously), but future ones would have been added without a defined pattern so code can't predict them, it just needs to keep a register of leap seconds that needs updating etc. So that no longer needs to happen.

    6. Re:Aw, jeezus by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The past isn't the problem, it is the unpredictable nature of future leap seconds that is. Unlike leap years there is no formula for deciding when we have a leap second, it is done as and when required to adjust to changes in the earth's rotation around the sun. In other words if I program some timekeeping code today it won't know when future leap seconds will happen unless I do an update manually.

      Say you have a system that deals with transactions that uses time stamps. Unless you have some way of telling the system that there was a leap second in 2011 and code that can deal with 31/12/2011 23:59:60 being a valid time you could run into problems. A lot of these systems are embedded or running ancient code that is expensive and difficult to update. Well, even more modern stuff has problems, e.g. the PS3's internal clock or the iPhone alarms that failed to go off.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  20. Arghhh! by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

    You have no idea how much code I'll have to look through to make sure that it doesn't assume |UTC-UT1| < 1.

    1. Re:Arghhh! by blair1q · · Score: 1

      i would guess all of it does, because we've always assumed UTC=UTC=UTC=UTC.

      luckily, the fix could be very simple.

      you just point your time server for those systems at a master time server that is still giving out UTC, instead of at whatever standards' organization's time server that's been changed over to the new standard.

      i suspect you'll be able to find (or construct) such UTC servers indefinitely.

      the math will then be done at one place, and everywhere else can just go on as their original specifications, uh, specified.

    2. Re:Arghhh! by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

      When you are trying to time light arrival time from astronomical objects to the microsecond, or if want to know where something is in the sky to arcsecond (or better) accuracy, what time it is, where the earth is, and how its oriented become very important questions. Depending upon where you live, your house might be moving at a quarter mile a second (relative to the center of the earth). The less well I know the time or the orientation of the earth, the larger the asteroid I need to use to ensure that I destroy it.

    3. Re:Arghhh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      at least you have the source code. I'll have to fix a system where the vendor's code assumes that, and the code is proprietary.

    4. Re:Arghhh! by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

      Maybe this change is a Y2K style jobs program. Nah, too few types of code are affected. It's not like my bank needs UT1 or barycentric dynamical time to the microsecond.

    5. Re:Arghhh! by rlseaman · · Score: 1

      Maybe this change is a Y2K style jobs program. Nah, too few types of code are affected. It's not like my bank needs UT1 or barycentric dynamical time to the microsecond.

      Y2K was a non-millennial event precisely because squadrons of crack programmers were deployed to fight the good fight. A Y2K inventory such as: http://iraf.noao.edu/projects/y2k/y2kplan.html, was a relatively straightforward exercise in pattern matching, but still required the examination of the entire codebase.

      A similar UTC-clean inventory will be needed against a similarly broad codebase. It will not be a simple exercise in pattern matching. The assumption has been that whole industries and communities can ignore the whole thing. This assumption results from viewing the issue as being about ceasing leap seconds.

      Rather, like the curious incident of the dog that didn't bark, the absence of leap seconds has broader implications, namely UTC will no longer be a type of universal time. Rather than simplifying civil timekeeping, suddenly two types of time must become explicit in the source and libraries of diverse systems that previously could assume they were the same thing.

      Banks may not need "UT1 or barycentric dynamical time to the microsecond". But the error will accumulate six orders of magnitude larger than that annually, and many of the systems funded by the banks - air, land and sea transportation, GIS, communications, logistics in addition to science and tech - may certainly care.

      The point is - nobody has looked. This is Y2K under an invisibility cloak.

    6. Re:Arghhh! by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

      I agree entirely with your Y2K point. It was disaster avoided. But it also got a lot of people employed.

      There have already been far more than two types of time, and we've survived. UTC will continue to be universal, and civil times will still be offsets of one hour from UTC (or half hour in those unusual cases). In some ways it will simplify things. GPS time, International Atomic Time (TAI), LORAN time, and Terrestrial Time (TT) will maintain a fixed offset from UTC that won't need to be adjusted for future leap seconds. All this does is breaks the link between the mean position of the sun and what time it is (civil time).

      At the current drift rate (400 seconds per millennium) it'll be 4000 years before people start to get annoyed with how far the sun is from overhead at noon. Then if people are still around and use our system of time, it'll probably be easier for them to change the time zone definitions It's only people who have to know the position and orientation of the earth (or of astronomical objects) that are going to be annoyed by this change, or are coding for inertial guidance systems that need to know that information. So this isn't ever going to a problem for most people. I'm just complaining because I'm one of those people.

    7. Re:Arghhh! by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

      In other words, code that isn't downloading this file at least once a week, or using a parameterized version probably isn't going to be affected. Any code that doesn't require |UTC-UT1|>1 second will continue to work just fine. If you're not pointing a telescope, guiding a missile or a spaceship, or using a UT1 clock in an inertial reference system locked to GPS or TAI time, I can't conceive of a way this could affect you.

    8. Re:Arghhh! by rlseaman · · Score: 1

      Many applications in astronomy - and likely in other fields - explicitly do not apply a DUT1 (or other EOP) correction because they assume that UTC is close enough to UT.

      Many of these will have to start applying a DUT1 correction because UTC will no longer provide Universal Time.

      The ITU-R proposal also is to stop issuing the DUT1 offset time signals. Some systems currently rely on non-standardized access to ad hoc resources such as you describe. Someone or some community will have to standardize these procedures and deploy battle-hardened infrastructure suitable for the increased load.

      No engineering plan exists for work related to this infrastructure. The assumption is that it will just magically happen. Services will be designed, deployed, funded, operated, maintained - and applications will be rewritten to make use of them. Who will do this?

      That you (or others) can't conceive of requirements for mean solar time implicit in various nooks and crannies of civil timekeeping does not mean that such requirements don't exist. A coherent systems engineering plan is the way to reveal such requirements.

      One might think that those tasked with guiding missiles might prefer to have their engineers take a look at this before it is voted upon.

    9. Re:Arghhh! by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

      You're right. I guess I'm too used to arcsecond astronomy. If you don't need accuracy better than 15 arcseconds or absolute timings I guess you could have ignored the difference. Looking at some older coordinate code I see things that scare me. No UT1 correction and polynomial fits to precession that stopped being accurate in 1980. This one even does the modulo 24 on Right Ascension to soon resulting in RAs greater than 24. And I know some of my colleagues are probably still using it with an additional mod 24.

  21. Oh... by jra · · Score: 1

    and TFA is apparently only available to Sigma Xi members. Great work there, Slashdot editor.

    1. Re:Oh... by blair1q · · Score: 1

      You should have just eaten the dog food and taken the paddling, and you'd have a login.

    2. Re:Oh... by treeves · · Score: 1

      Or you could just find a Tri-Delt who's dating a Sigma Xi and help her with her homework, and she'll hook you up.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
  22. tl;dr? by caturday · · Score: 1

    Since the summary is direct copypasta of the terrible abstract, does anyone have a tl;dr on this?

  23. They are preparing for asteroid 2004 MN4 by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 1

    This is in preparation for the impact of asteroid 2004 MN4 (Apophis). Once that happens there will be no life on Earth. Without UTC, we will have to leave a person on Earth so if we want to know the time, we will have to call him -- like the old telephone time service.

  24. And time zones! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The world is a lot smaller place than a hundred years ago. Time zones especially when combined with daylight savings time add nothing to our society and make for a royal PITA. The old term midnight is the only issue. Who cares if you work from 01:00 to 09:00 or 08:00 to 17:00.

    1. Re:And time zones! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, so why should I have to change my watch for a farmer?

  25. Re:base-12 base-10 by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 1

    10 is an arbitrary base and works poorly for time. Earth time works very well in Base-12, which is what we have now.

    Why would it work more poorly for time than for distance or anything else?

    Although one thing I do find amusing about the whole metric vs. traditional units is that one of the primary arguments for moving to metric units is that it makes conversion between units easier. The only problem is that about the only units that I convert between on a regular basis is ... time, which is not handled in base 10. (I do think that we'd be better off switching to metric, but ease of unit conversion is a pretty minor point).

    --

    How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
  26. Horrors! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Horrors! in 5000 years we might get to the point where the sun reached its height at 3 in the afternoon....

  27. Wall clocks by bugs2squash · · Score: 4, Insightful

    will simply ignore UTC and continue to show the time based on the earth's rotation. All this means is that UTC loses any small shred of relevance that it once may have had to the common man. So go ahead, redefine UTC and we can all just go back to using GMT for our reports, syslog messages, traps etc. that all have far more to do with the time as experienced by users than the time as experienced by a cesium atom. I expect that soon after the decision is made someone will start gmt.pool.ntp.org and utc.pool.ntp.org and we'll have a choice.

    --
    Nullius in verba
    1. Re:Wall clocks by NixieBunny · · Score: 1

      Wall clocks don't know anything about the earth's rotation. They're typically driven by the mains frequency, which is in the process of being disconnected form 60 Hz in the USA. And GMT is no solution - it didn't handle the earth's rotation rate change very gracefully. Do you want the version that changed the definition of a second based on the last few years' observed day lengths?

      --
      The determined Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language.
    2. Re:Wall clocks by bugs2squash · · Score: 1
      In general, people will want clocks that pretty much point to noon at the sun's zenith where they live, where it gets dark at around the wall-clock time they remember as being bed time and where the alarm goes off just slightly before the time of day that they wish it would. These are all synced to the Earth's motion and anyway...
      • Powerline frequency stability isn't what it once was, and being allowed to drift more recently, especially outside of Texas (I don't know why Texas...)
      • Wall clocks (and by extension syslog clocks etc.) can generally stand to be gently corrected every now and again so the smooth progression of time is not as important for those purposes (ie. >99% of all purposes I would guess) as it might be to a hyper-accurate physics experiment
      --
      Nullius in verba
    3. Re:Wall clocks by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

      In general, people will want clocks that pretty much point to the minute at which the next television show will appear. They should therefore synced instead to the broadcast signal time. Keeping your DVR and wall clock in sync with the broadcasting stations reduces the possibility of DVR drift, where you miss the first or last few seconds of a show, or reality drift where you turn the tv on a few seconds late.

    4. Re:Wall clocks by Arlet · · Score: 1

      In general, people will want clocks that pretty much point to noon at the sun's zenith where they live

      But it doesn't have to be at the nearest second. Where I live, the sun reached zenith at 1:43pm today. Even if we stop counting the leap seconds, it will take long before that number reaches 2pm. At that time, we can start considering adding a leap hour, or something similar.

    5. Re:Wall clocks by blair1q · · Score: 1

      I will ignore both and continue to claim "my watch is a little fast" when showing up my customary 160+-5 seconds late for meetings.

    6. Re:Wall clocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The EU requires member countries to do daylight saving time. Thus Greenwich time is not the same GMT it once was. What you probably really want is Casablanca time... just ask Microsoft!

    7. Re:Wall clocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, wall clocks should follow UTC since UTC is the generally accepted time. Whenever someone mentions time without specifying what type (TAI, Posix etc), UTC is implied. So, if the definition of UTC changes you'd better change the time of your wall clock or you will be a couple of seconds late for the train.

      I for one welcome such a change. Leap seconds are an unnecessary pain that introduce so many unnecessary problems when dealing with time keeping. For example, an hour is usually 3600 seconds long, except sometimes when it is 3601 seconds. A period of time such as "one year from now" is not well defined since leap seconds may be added or removed. Every computer must keep updating a list of the published leap seconds to be able to calculate time durations between dates.

      Leap seconds are truly useless and evil. Good riddance.

    8. Re:Wall clocks by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Pfft. My wall clock points to one at the solar zenith most of the year, because I like to be different.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  28. What would be the point of UTC, then? by inglorion_on_the_net · · Score: 4, Informative

    If UTC would be redefined to no longer be adjusted to Earth's rotation, then what would be the point of having UTC at all? We already have a time scale that counts seconds without adjusting to Earth's rotation: TAI

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    1. Re:What would be the point of UTC, then? by radtea · · Score: 1

      If UTC would be redefined to no longer be adjusted to Earth's rotation, then what would be the point of having UTC at all? We already have a time scale that counts seconds without adjusting to Earth's rotation: TAI [wikipedia.org]

      Yeah, this really makes no sense. We will always have the need for a time that will tell us when the Sun will rise and whatnot, and that time will always need leap seconds or something like them.

      A better solution might be to redefine UTC to be independent of any notion of "seconds" as a datum. Give each UTC year a TAI start-second (floating point, of course) as a datum and be done with it, rather than counting UTC seconds from a one datum, TAI seconds from another datum, and adding an adjustment between them now and then.

      This would still change the meaning of UTC, but it would explicitly represent the extra information required to turn UTC into TAI and vice-versa as a table of UTC-year TAI start seconds and possibly an interpolation formula across years. All math on times should be done in terms of TAI anyway, and what's the point of having ubiquitous computing if not to use it for this kind of thing?

      I'm sure there is some reason for not doing this, as the people who think about this aren't idiots, but it naively seems like the best solution.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    2. Re:What would be the point of UTC, then? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      It would be a good timebase for when we're not on Earth. I.e., it would become "universal".

      So, while I think changing what UTC means is pretty dumb, now, I think that if we had /. back when they decided to make the first adjustment to it to keep to the Earth's clock that I would have thought that changing what UTC meant then was really fucking dumb. Since I think now that's what I think having done it then was.

      So here's my solution: Leave UTC alone, don't make anyone have to change anything they've based on it, and continue to adjust it continually because that's what people expect, even if they think that is a pain in the ass. Make up a whole new system for those purposes for which you're thinking of munging UTC to serve.

    3. Re:What would be the point of UTC, then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be a good timebase for when we're not on Earth. I.e., it would become "universal".

      Even without the leap seconds UTC would be dependent on local conditions on Earth, specifically the relativistic effects of Earth's movement and gravitational field. When you're not on Earth you would instead use Barycentric Coordinate Time, which is "universal" as long as you stay in our solar system. For longer trips you may wish to turn to a time defined using the barycenter of the Milky Way, and so on. But UTC serves a purpose and does it well, so let's not ruin it just to pretend that we can make it universal by removing only one of its many ties to the Earth.

    4. Re:What would be the point of UTC, then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm interesting, what's time now in TAI.
      The Bureau International des Poids et Mesures shows the time in UTC only.
      Erhy

  29. Re:base-12 base-10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Say, they're not 1-teen and 2-teen, are they?

    In Chinese, basically they are.

  30. It's been done. by msauve · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's called TAI. Redefining UTC is just plain stupid - it was created to track sol. If someone doesn't like the fact that doing so requires occasional adjustments, then they chose to use the wrong time scale. Those who use UTC as intended shouldn't have to live with the problems which will result if it is unlocked from solar time, just to keep those who made a poor choice happy.

    (GMT hasn't been in use for a long time, although most people use the term interchangeably with UTC).

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:It's been done. by thsths · · Score: 1

      > GMT hasn't been in use for a long time

      Au contraire - it is the official time of GB and Ireland. As such it is subject to Daylight Saving Time (called BST), and very different from UTC. So using GMT could cause never ending confusion...

      Funny enough gruve.com made exactly that mistake: it does not support DST for GMT. And support is unable to help.

      Anyway, the C in UTC stands for coordinated, so I cannot see how they could redefine it without turning it into a lie.

    2. Re:It's been done. by Jamu · · Score: 2

      GMT is not subject to daylight saving time. Daylight saving time, or BST, is GMT + 1. BST is defined relative to GMT. GB and Ireland are currently using BST as it's summer (not GMT, but GMT + 1). In the winter they'll use GMT. GMT is the same as UTC.

      --
      Who ordered that?
    3. Re:It's been done. by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Redefining UTC is just plain stupid - it was created to track sol.

      Actual sol or relativistically delayed sol?

    4. Re:It's been done. by msauve · · Score: 1

      You're referring to the identically named time zone. The historical GMT is what is now called UT0, which differs from UTC (they can differ by almost a second). What the Brits now refer to as GMT is really a UTC based timezone, not a time scale.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    5. Re:It's been done. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See CCTF/09-27 which was submitted to ITU-R SG7A in 2007-09 and which said
                      In the case of a redefinition of UTC without leap seconds, the
                      CCTF would consider discussing the possibility of suppressing
                      TAI, as it would remain parallel to the continuous UTC.
      That makes it unclear whether the time scale known as TAI will continue to exist.

  31. Re:base-12 base-10 by Twinbee · · Score: 1

    I'm one of the biggest advocates for the base 12 (or 16) number system, but if we have to keep with base 10 for now, then it would obviously make sense to have time as base 10 also to keep things standard.

    --
    Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
  32. Re:They are preparing for asteroid 2004 MN4 by fuego451 · · Score: 1

    "like the old telephone time service." Ah, UL3-1212. Haven't thought about that in a long...um...time. For the 'new-time' perhaps we could use: U812 or Fi1U12.

  33. More confusion by brazilofmux · · Score: 1

    A man with one watch always knows what time it is. A man with two is never sure.

    1. Re:More confusion by thsths · · Score: 1

      A broken watch shows the correct time twice a day, something that a clock 5 minutes late never does.

  34. three pictures to explain it, and a solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The situation can be explained in three pictures.

    Using already-deployed code, here is one way to solve the problems.

  35. so this what the mayan ment by end of time by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    The old system will end and all new one will start up at the same time with big changes.

  36. Re:base-12 base-10 by residieu · · Score: 2

    The ease of conversion is more when converting compound units. A newton is a kg m/second^2. A Joule is a Newton applied over a meter = kg m^2/second^2. A Watt is a Joule used every second = kg m^2/second^3.

    American units have the pound, which is a slug foot /second^2. Except no one uses the slug, so it has to be pound-force = pound mass * 32.2 ft/second ^2. Energy? Sometimes they use foot-pound which is easy enough, but other areas we use kilowatt-hour, or BTU (defined from the heat capacity of water). Power is defined in either kilowatts or horsepower (defined via watts). Air conditioners are rated by BTU (actually BTU/hour, but that's not the way they're advertised).

  37. Re:base-12 base-10 by nschubach · · Score: 1

    I agree, 10 doesn't work so well, but 1 works great for time if you consider one rotation of Earth. At .500000 Greenwich would be through one half rotation. If you told someone to meet up in 2 and a half days you know how many time units it is already... (hint: 2.5)

    I actually wrote a JavaScript clock for my desktop that uses UTC time converted to decimal for Earth rotations.

    I will disagree that 12 is a reasonable number though. Sixteen I can see, but twelve does not evenly halve out to a round number. 12/2 = 6/2 = 3/2 = 1.5

    --
    Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  38. No it's pointless. by pavon · · Score: 1

    Time conversion is complicated because the universe is complicated. The time it takes to orbit around the sun isn't a nice even multiple of the amount of time it takes for the earth rotate, or any subdivision of that day. It isn't even constant as the drag of the moon and the shifting of the tectonic plates all affect the rate at which the earth rotates.

    Over time we have developed many different ways of measuring time, each of which have their own advantages and disadvantages depending on the application. TIA and GPS time are both useful for applications where having a continuous scale is more important that exact accuracy. UTC was devised to keep the time in sync with the motion of the earth. That is it's purpose. By removing the leaps seconds, you remove any advantage it provides over TIA, and it becomes a redundant pointless time system.

    Furthermore, it won't make software easier, because it will still have to account for the times in the past where leap seconds were inserted. More so, all local times are based on UTC and they add their own discontinuities, which have to be tracked using databases, so it's not like you are removing the need to maintain such databases; you just eliminated one entry in it.

    As Einstein said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler". This is a case of oversimplifying for no good reason.

  39. Re:base-12 base-10 by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 1

    The ease of conversion is more when converting compound units. A newton is a kg m/second^2. A Joule is a Newton applied over a meter = kg m^2/second^2. A Watt is a Joule used every second = kg m^2/second^3

    Oh, I understand the principle. The thing is that I haven't had any reason to do those types of unit conversions since I got out of school, and I'm willing to bet that goes for almost everyone else. Those who do (scientists and engineers, mostly), ought to be using metric in their work, no argument there, but the customary units that are used in other contexts doesn't matter all that much.

    I am aware that in some fields of engineering they still use traditional units. And yes, that's beyond stupid.

    --

    How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
  40. Re:base-12 base-10 by transami · · Score: 1

    "We know that the human race is not sufficiently advanced because they have not yet converted to a base-6 system of enumeration."

    --
    :T:R:A:N:S:
  41. Re:base-12 base-10 by Phleg · · Score: 1

    Being a power of two is not of as much use as is being an even multiple of 2, 3, 4, and 6, giving you many possible factors to divide evenly by.

    --
    No comment.
  42. Re:base-12 base-10 by w_dragon · · Score: 1

    Hate to tell you, but metric is the 'customary' system pretty much everywhere but the USA and Libya.

  43. Re:base-12 base-10 by Normal+Dan · · Score: 1

    Now that you mention it, I've always considered base-2 or 16 to be rather useful for dealing with computers. As long as we're rearranging things, let's pick a base and put everything in it. I say 16. We can learn to count on our non-thumb knuckles and toes. We'll be a race of super geniuses, etc.

    --
    A unique way to learn a language: http://languageloom.com
  44. what about NIST by FudRucker · · Score: 1

    and my clock that syncs to NIST's WWVb transmitter? i seen no mention of it in the PDF

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  45. Re:base-12 base-10 by nschubach · · Score: 1

    But what's the point of dividing a day into three or six parts? I can see 2 and 4 (half and quarter day) but I don't know many people who think in third or sixth of days.

    --
    Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  46. itsabouttime by miruku · · Score: 2

    Oh groan, best use of that tag on /. so far.

    --
    MilkMiruku
  47. Seems like a silly thing to do by pablo_max · · Score: 1

    I know that we can keep time much more accurate using atomic time.
    My questions is, why on earth would we want to? I mean that literally. We live on earth. The earths travel rotation around the sun and the rotation the earth does each day is what is relevant to our lives.
    We plant our crops according to the seasons. We wake up because the sun shines. Why should our system of time directly reflect the way we live our lives?

    1. Re:Seems like a silly thing to do by blair1q · · Score: 1

      The best use of atomic timebases is the same as the best use of clocks used to be: navigation.

      We started out needing accurate clocks so we could tell from the angles of celestial bodies and the horizon where we were on the planet relative to home, to within a few hundred meters.

      Now we need accurate atomic timebases to measure the frequencies of radio waves from satellites to triangulate between them so we can tell where we are on the planet even if we're at home, to within a few meters.

  48. Re:base-12 base-10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    16 is perfect, because it fits in nicely with Time Cube theory: Cubed Earth has 4 Days within simultaneous rotation!

  49. Re:base-12 base-10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People deal with money every day, decimals are not out of the ordinary or overly complex to divide:
    1/2 = $.50
    1/4 (Quarter) = $.25 (Opposed to one quarter hour which is now 15 minutes ... that's just odd in a "base 10 world." 1/4 == .25)

  50. A better solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...change the length of a second.

    1. Re:A better solution... by jecblackpepper · · Score: 1

      We already have that. It's called GMT and UT1.

  51. Re:base-12 base-10 by paulej72 · · Score: 1

    But what's the point of dividing a day into three or six parts? I can see 2 and 4 (half and quarter day) but I don't know many people who think in third or sixth of days.

    The standard work day is 8 hours, 1/3 of a day. Most shift workers think all the time in third and sixths of a day.

    Eric

  52. Re:base-12 base-10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hate to tell you, but metric is the 'customary' system pretty much everywhere but the USA and Libya.

    that's actually the USA, Liberia, and Myanmar chief.

    plus, in america we use actually both systems depending on what we're doing, which is vastly superior to only knowing one or the other. just one more reason america is on top~

  53. Re:base-12 base-10 by nschubach · · Score: 1

    Shift workers think 8 hours, not 1/3 days. I'd even argue that a majority of those don't even account for those as 8 hour days but as start and end times. It's a subtle distinction, but I think a very important one. Using any arbitrary timescale you can still come up with a set of time that you have to work. For the start/end timers all they need is a time to start. For the hourly, all they are looking for is a number of time units to meet.

    --
    Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  54. Re:base-12 base-10 by DividedByZer0 · · Score: 1

    12 does halve out to a round number! Six, as you suggested. Divide any number by two enough times and you'll end up with a fraction. However, dividing by two is just as random as counting by 12. Everyone seems to think base-X is a poor system but no one is explaining why. What are the qualities by which we're rating counting systems? I think we should count from 5 to -1. It seems to work well for the comments on this site.

  55. PDF Link and the Real Threat Is Not Real by gavron · · Score: 1

    If you want to read it for yourself: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1106.3141v1

    Quoting the last line: "Will deliberations at the ITU-R Radiocommunication Assembly in January 2012 resolve or cloud these issues?"

    This is a committee to review the standard. Nothing is going to change without proposals. Those come long AFTER the review. Then there's the discussion process. Eventually it may make it to being a standard. Then people have time to implement it.

    Cheers,

    Ehud

    1. Re:PDF Link and the Real Threat Is Not Real by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Why do we need them?

      They should submit the standard to us and we'll figure out whether anything needs to be done.

  56. What really moves a clock's hands... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...
    http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/06/25/1528216/Long-Now-Clock-Advances-With-Bezos-Cash

    The requirement for that clock has been to stay working for 10000 years,
    so it's natural to choose to skip time produced by a committee...

  57. Re:base-12 base-10 by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 1

    Hate to tell you, but metric is the 'customary' system pretty much everywhere but the USA and Libya.

    What makes you think that I (and anyone who reads /.) don't know that?

    --

    How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
  58. Re:base-12 base-10 by nschubach · · Score: 1

    The current time values are hard to use in calculations. Calculations for pay, calculations for project times, calculations for just about anything with direct ties to time. At their level it's easy to deal with but converting the number to another level requires that you remember a set of numbers that have no other meaning but that. (ie: 1440 for minutes in a day)

    In our current system: it's 24 units, then 12, then 60, then 60, then 1000. There's no consistency. If you wanted to find the hours in a day it's 24, but minutes is 1440. The two numbers have no correlation but their relation to an arbitrary time measurement.

    In base 10 operations everything is divisible by 10 to get to the next precision level or by 100 if you want to convert two precision levels. There's no thinking: "Gosh, I have to multiply this hour by 24, then 60 then add the current minutes to get the time in total minutes." If someone walked up to you in the street and said there was a sale at the store a block away starting in 178 minutes (they wouldn't... but still) you'd have to stop and think how many times 60 goes into 178, deal with remainders... Now if that same person used decimal times(.123), you could simply look at your watch and add 0.12 to the current time and know roughly when it started without having to convert the minutes to hours. It's much simpler to solve the answer in your head if all your precision units are consistent.

    --
    Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  59. base 60 by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    I think we should do everything in base 60 since it is a round multiple of 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 , so it's three factors better than base 10.
    The next step would add 7 as a factor, and we sure wouldn't want to try to base our technological civilization on that! (do the math, be, um, enlightened...)

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:base 60 by nschubach · · Score: 1

      If that's the goal, 2520 would be your magic number. It's divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    2. Re:base 60 by DividedByZer0 · · Score: 1

      Which brings us back to why we do so many things in base ten to begin with... we only have ten characters that represent numbers! Sure you can represent hex numbers with A,B,C,D,E, and F but that's just using letters for a lack of a better alternative.

    3. Re:base 60 by nschubach · · Score: 1

      We "do so many things in base ten to begin with" because that's how many fingers we have. The numbers were created afterwards.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  60. You Humans and your linear definition of "time"... by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Some cats get it man, they think it is a circle, but that's not even it man. What it is, man is a sphere. The most perfect sphere if ever there was one man, it's beautiful. There is no back or forward, past, present, or future, everything is all the time, everywhere, you just have to feel it man. That's why I don't wear a watch...

    *puff* *puff* *cough*

  61. planck time quanta only absolute by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Then I'd multiple by some power of ten two closest to a human second or year to derive the planck-second or planck-year.

  62. Re:base-12 base-10 by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

    So that's why Jetson was complaining about the 2 hour work day... lol. In any case a 10 hour day wouldn't make much sense, hours would be too long, and 100 would be too many hours in a day, but would be close to equivalent to a quarter hour...

    cycle == 1 season rotation (year)
    day == 1 planet rotation (approximate)
    arn == 1/10 (2.4 hours) day
    centarn=1/100 of an arn (1.44 minutes)
    microt=1/100 of an centiarn (0.864 seconds)

    Some names thanks to farscape.. though microt in this decimal notation is about half a microt on the show.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
  63. Actual article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/1106.3141v1

  64. Re:base-12 base-10 by w_dragon · · Score: 1

    The fact that you referred to the imperial system as 'customary' in your comment. It is not for the great majority of the world, and there is nothing that makes it any better than metric for someone who doesn't know either system already.

  65. I agree on one condition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Rename it to the Stardate Calendar, and trekkie geeks everywhere will rejoice while dictating their captains log in their mom's basement.

  66. Want to improve karma? by xded · · Score: 1

    Search for alternative sources to paywalled content, learn how to deal with pageviews-harvesting blogs, post link.

    Slashdot, where editing is crowdsourced.

    p.s. Thanks for the link...

  67. xmas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is all an elaborate excuse to have stores begin Christmas earlier each year.

  68. Re:base-12 base-10 by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    I will disagree that 12 is a reasonable number though. Sixteen I can see, but twelve does not evenly halve out to a round number.

    12 does evenly halve-out, but 16 does not evenly third-out. 16 is great for computers, because it's a power of two. In everyday human usage, taking thirds is very common and not well-supported by base-10 or base-16.

    What's a third of an hour?

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  69. Re:base-12 base-10 by robot256 · · Score: 1

    If we're going to think of the children, think of what they will be doing in the future instead of the past. We should switch to base 16 since that makes it easiest to work with computers.

    Besides, it doesn't matter if there are 24 or 10 or 64 hours in a day. Real geeks use seconds. As in, "I'll see you at 28,800 seconds sharp. Don't be late, we've got to finish before my meeting at 39,600."

  70. Re:base-12 base-10 by nschubach · · Score: 1

    The problem is that nobody uses thirds of an day/hour/minute. They talk in hours/minutes/seconds, respectively. The same argument applies from this post:
    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2277666&cid=36602144

    --
    Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  71. Re:base-12 base-10 by nschubach · · Score: 1

    Sorry, meant this post: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2277666&cid=36601332 but the above also applies to the complexity of the current system.

    --
    Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  72. Re:base-12 base-10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just one more reason america is on top~

    On top of what? 'Highest unemployment rate' lists? 'Worst health care in developed nations' lists? 'Highest prison rates per capita' lists?

    Oh, nevermind. America! Boo-yeah! We're number one!

  73. Re:base-12 base-10 by Savantissimo · · Score: 1

    "...about the only units that I convert between on a regular basis is ... time, "

    You might want to try Frink, which specializes in units conversion, including some very sophisticated time functions and unusual units. (Search in the latter link for "Astronomical time measurements"). It handles UTC, Dynamical Time, International Atomic Time (TAI), GPS time, leap seconds, can do correct date arithmetic even across the 1BC -1AD and Julian-Gregorian gaps, and can do time-zone conversions across the date line, e.g.:

    now[]
    AD 2011-06-28 PM 04:37:05.787 (Tue) Eastern Daylight Time

    now[] -> Guam
    AD 2011-06-29 AM 06:37:14.543 (Wed) Chamorro Standard Time

    --
    "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
  74. Re:base-12 base-10 by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    Why would it work more poorly for time than for distance or anything else?

    Because with base 10 you'd be up to your ears in fractions all day (thirds of an hour, quarter hours, etc.). In base-12 fractions aren't required for everyday use.

    A day is (12^3 * 5^2 * 2) seconds long. You can describe earth's 4-year orbital cycle with respect to its rotation with only one constant:

    (12^4 * 5^2 * 243.5) seconds

    and that will be accurate within the leap-second variation being discussed here.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  75. How does this affect the TimeCube? by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

    This gentleman may need to revise his theory. http://www.timecube.com/ NSFW due to some naughty language

    --
    This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
  76. Time is an angle by rlseaman · · Score: 1

    Time is measured in sexagesimal fractions for the same reason that longitude is - they are both representations of angles.

    TAI (also on the chopping block) and other interval timescales are appropriately represented as an open-ended count of seconds since some defining epoch.

    UTC, as a type of Universal Time, that is time-of-day, represents the (mean) angle of the Sun in the sky.

    Clocks report time-of-day, Universal Time, UTC - because vast numbers of human activities are diurnal. A sexagesimal representation is appropriate.

    Chronometers - a different kind of timepiece - report precise intervals. A numerical count is appropriate.

    The problem arises in converting between one and the other while making overly-simplistic assumptions about the interface design and underlying project requirements.

    1. Re:Time is an angle by cocotoni · · Score: 1

      Longitude can be expressed using gradians quite well (with 400 grads per full circle). Then it works out to one centigrad of arc on the equator equaling one kilometer.

      In fact, during the aborted trial of decimal time right after the french revolution there were almanacs published with exactly that system - grads, decimal time and kilometers. And guess what, the same formulas for spherical trigonometry work out exactly the same as they do with the usual system of degrees, H/M/S and nautical miles.

  77. Re:base-12 base-10 by Duradin · · Score: 1

    "What's a third of an hour?"

    Depends on if you're asking someone who can (still) read an analog watch or not.

    Analog watch literate: 20 minutes.
    Digital only: 0.333... hours.

  78. Y2K12? by turkeydance · · Score: 0

    just sayin'

  79. Re:base-12 base-10 by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    The problem is that nobody uses thirds of an day/hour/minute.

    There could be thousands of counter-examples to this, but just one for the sake of illustration:

    I have a three-act show to put on in a 1-hour timeslot - how long should each act be?

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  80. Re:base-12 base-10 by nschubach · · Score: 1

    Each one would be .03 with a .003 intermission. .0003 is so insignificant it doesn't matter.

    --
    Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  81. Re:base-12 base-10 by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Because with base 10 you'd be up to your ears in fractions all day

    Yeah, 1/10, 3/10. 7/10. Oh the horrors.

    The only reason people are comfortable with nutty base-12 stuff is it was easier before decimals were considered normal. Now that we have decimals as common, there is no more need for stupid bases. Though personally, I wish we'd ended up with base 16 rather than base 10 or base 12. Then we'd have no conversions between machine code and human numbers.

  82. Re:base-12 base-10 by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    But 12 isn't evenly divisible by 7. When randomly asserting divisors are desirable in the age of decimals, you might as well get them all.

    I've moved on to decimal. I don't care what it is and isn't divisible by.

  83. Re:base-12 base-10 by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    I have a three-act show to put on in a 1-hour timeslot - how long should each act be?

    0.333 hours (assuming no intermission, you slave driver).

  84. Re:base-12 base-10 by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 1

    The fact that you referred to the imperial system as 'customary' in your comment. It is not for the great majority of the world, and there is nothing that makes it any better than metric for someone who doesn't know either system already.

    Try re-reading my comment. I specifically chose the word "customary" because it doesn't matter what the commonly used system is; those who actually are doing frequent unit conversions ought to be using metric anyway.

    --

    How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
  85. Two links by DrYak · · Score: 1

    There are two links in the summary.
    The american scientist isn't free.
    But arxiv has a PDF-only copy for free.
    (AFAIK the last proof remains the intellectual property of the authors, the journal only own the final version as it appears in print. So the authors can upload this PDF on arxiv)

    So stop complaining and use the other link.
    Or didn't you even read TFS ? ;-)

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  86. Re:base-12 base-10 by mirix · · Score: 1

    How caveman do you think Libya is? They're on metric too.

    AFAIK the only non-US nations de jure using imperial are Liberia and Burma.

    --
    Sent from my PDP-11
  87. Re:base-12 base-10 by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 2

    Because with base 10 you'd be up to your ears in fractions all day (thirds of an hour, quarter hours, etc.). In base-12 fractions aren't required for everyday use.

    Um ... don't you ever use the phases "half past ten" or "quarter to six"?

    --

    How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
  88. Re:base-12 base-10 by mirix · · Score: 2

    You don't need fractions though? That's the point of metric?

    A day is 100 centidays long.

    Go to work at 37.5cd (375millidays) aka 9h... high noon at .5d / 5dd / 50cd. So take your half hour lunch ( 2 centiday lunch). Come back to the office at 52cd Leave work at 71cd (17h). supper at 75cd (18h). etc. The 11oclock news is now on at 958md. They'd probably make it a nice number like .95day. "Late news nine five".
    Realistically these would end up being aligned with rounder numbers. Just like no one has an official shift start at 9:13.

    1 centiday is roughly 15m (14.4m), so 4 centidays is almost an hour. So instead of meeting someone in an hour or 15m, you meet them in 4 cents, or a cent...

    That all seems very weird but I'm sure it would be perfectly natural once adapted to, I would think. Just typing it up is a bit of a mindfuck, but I don't think people born into it would question it any more than they question our current time system.

    The real problem is that there are 3600 seconds in a day, so you'd probably want to redefine a second as being 10 microdays (which is 864ms), which would break every other unit pretty much.

    Leap seconds and that too. but yeah, that's what I've got right now.

    --
    Sent from my PDP-11
  89. date '+%s' by fryguy451 · · Score: 1

    UTC redfined as $(($(date '+%s') + $leapseconds))

  90. Re:You Humans and your linear definition of "time" by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

    A sphere? Don't you mean a ball?

    On a more serious note, I submit that the arrow of time is a local anisomorphy in the phase-space of possible worlds, from less entropic ones to more entropic ones, in which case it really may be a sphere, or really a hypersphere, centered on the nearest local entropic minimum in the aforementioned phase-space.

    --
    -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
    "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
  91. What This Means and Why This Has Become An Issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Astronomers have known for a long time that the earth's rotation is slowing, primarily an effect caused by the moon and sun dragging on the tidal bulge they raise not only in the oceans but also in the earth's crust. To keep Universal Time (Coordinated) or UTC within 0.5 seconds of mean solar time, UTC is adjusted by adding one second to the last minute at the end of a day (the "leap second"). Computer software that must deal with uniform minutes should use International Atomic Time (TAI [from the French acronym]) and include algorithms to convert between UTC and TAI.

    Such software to deal automatically with leap seconds and the difference between TAI and UTC existed at least as early as 1969, when the adjustment of UTC involved not whole seconds but fractions of a second and when a UTC second was not even equal to a TAI second. Today, only whole leap seconds occur; and a UTC clock ticks at the same rate and on the same instant as a TAI clock. The difference is that, at the instant when a TAI clock reads 10:23:47 a UTC clock will read 10:23:13.

    What happened is that the slowing of the earth's rotation itself decreased such that several years elapsed without any leap seconds. Between the 1 July 1983 leap second and the 1 January 1990 leap second, only two other leap seconds occurred. In the ten years between the 1 January 1999 leap second and the 1 January 2010 leap second, there was only one other leap second. Before 1983, leap seconds occurred every year or two.

    After 1983, too many people -- astronomers, horologists, and especially computer software engineers -- became lazy. Knowledge that was well used 40 years ago was forgotten. Critical software systems broke when they could not handle a 61-second minute. These systems were designed, tested, and put to use during the gaps between leap seconds. Now, rather than correct the software, the plan is to redefine the environment. Unfortunately, much software still requires knowledge of mean solar time, including the software for operating such space satellites as the GPS sytem despite the fact that GPS time itself does not use UTC or leap seconds.

    This is all so similar to the Y2K fiasco.

  92. Timecube by the_arrow · · Score: 1

    I think we should standardize on the timecube.

    --
    / The Arrow
    "How lovely you are. So lovely in my straightjacket..." - Nny
  93. Re:base-12 base-10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    10 is an arbitrary base and works poorly for time. Earth time works very well in Base-12, which is what we have now.

    If you want to think of the children, the Egyptians and Babylonians taught their children to count on the knuckles of their four non-thumb fingers. The 10-finger-number system is just an unfortunate thing that came along with arabic numerals, which are very useful.

    I saw we adopt something from the UNICODE set to mean eleven and twelve. Say, they're not 1-teen and 2-teen, are they?

    Why not use something like 2, or 8, or 16? Pick the frequency of some em waveform emitted by some nuclear element as the primary basis on which to define a second. Have 64 of these newly graded seconds define a minute, 64 minutes define an hour, and 32 or 16 hours define a day.

    Right now, you have a day as 60x60x24 = 86,499 seconds. With the new definition, you will have 131,072 seconds. In other words, a shorter second, but one that gives a day 32 hours. In other words, split the day into 131,072 'seconds', and define the second to be certain number of times the frequency of that particular radioactive waveform.

    Oh, and come up w/ a new numbering system altogether. Instead of base 10, do base 16. Already we have hexadecimal extensions of A-F, but I suggest that instead of these, we add 6 new numerals to denote them: flipped 3, 4, 6, 7, 9 & a sideways 2 or 5. Use them, in that order, to denote A-F.

    Then redefine all weights & measures to this new system. It'll be best for computers, that will no longer have to go from binary to bcd or vice versa, and make things so much easier. No need to complain about following metric, or Imperial or anything else NIH. Use this system, on the grounds that it's the most natural and mathematical/scientific way to organize numbers.

  94. Easy fix by isobvious · · Score: 1

    All we need to do is adjust the orbit and rotation of the earth to convenient metric values. It could be calibrated every year using nuclear weapons, as in the move "The Day the Earth Caught Fire".

  95. Re:base-12 base-10 by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    So, your metric time would be in seconds right? You can talk about kiloseconds all you like, doesn't matter to me.

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    APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  96. Re:base-12 base-10 by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

    Check out hexadecimal time in wikipedia.

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    I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.